# Live from SIOP 2025: Part One

An episode of [The Science of Personality Podcast](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1517116280), 8 Apr 2025, 39 min.

Audio: https://www.buzzsprout.com/1134107/episodes/16938298-live-from-siop-2025-part-one.mp3

In this special episode of The Science of Personality, Ryne and Blake interview guests in person at the 2025 Society for Industrial and Organizational Psychology (SIOP) Conference in Denver. Featured guests include: - Brian J. Ruggeberg, Consultant, Spencer Stuart o Topic: Using Hogan tools for executive assessment and development - Comila Shahani-Denning, PhD, Professor of Psychology, Hofstra University o Topic: Benefits of graduate students getting Hogan certified - Nadine Maliakkal, PhD, Talent Analytics Consultant, Hogan Assessments o Topic: Creativity in leadership - Kevin Mitchell, PhD, Talent in Organizational Development Manager, MIT Lincoln Laboratory o Topic: Creativity in leadership - Nicole Dickie, Senior Consultant (APAC), Hogan Assessments o Topic: Global Leadership Effectiveness Survey early findings Take Global Leadership Effectiveness Survey here: https://www.hoganassessments.com/news-events/updates/call-for-participation-global-research-study-on-effective-leadership/

## Transcript

[0:00] SPEAKER_08: Hello, everybody.
[0:02] SPEAKER_08: This is Blake with the Science and Personality Podcast, and the following episode is a collection of live in-person interviews that Ryan and I conducted on April 3rd and 4th at the 2025 Society for Industrial and Organizational Psychology Conference in Denver.
[0:17] SPEAKER_08: We hope you enjoy this special episode of the podcast.
[0:20] SPEAKER_08: Cheers, everybody.
[0:23] SPEAKER_00: People are the most consequential and dangerous forces on earth.
[0:27] SPEAKER_00: Well, personality psychology is about the nature of human nature.
[0:30] SPEAKER_00: It's about people.
[0:31] SPEAKER_00: And wouldn't that be useful to know?
[0:33] SPEAKER_00: It seems to me.
[0:33] SPEAKER_00: I can't I can't think of a more important problem.
[0:38] SPEAKER_01: You're listening to the Science of Personality Podcast, brought to you by Hogan Assessments, the global leader in personality and leadership.
[0:46] SPEAKER_01: Guided by your hosts, Hogan Chief Science Officer and world-renowned personality psychologist, Dr.
[0:51] SPEAKER_01: Ryan Sherman, alongside Hogan's PR manager and resident storyteller, Clay Lett, this podcast explores the impact of personality on life, leadership, and the nature of human nature.
[1:04] SPEAKER_08: Hello, everybody, and welcome to the special edition of the Science of Personality live from Psyop in Denver.
[1:10] SPEAKER_08: In this episode, we're joined by Brian Ruggeberg, a consultant in the Leadership Advisory Services practice at Spencer Stewart, to talk about using Hogan tools as the foundation for executive assessment and development.
[1:21] SPEAKER_08: So, Brian, welcome to the podcast.
[1:24] SPEAKER_08: Blake, thank you much.
[1:25] SPEAKER_08: Very glad to be here.
[1:26] SPEAKER_05: Yeah, Brian, uh super excited to have you here.
[1:28] SPEAKER_05: Uh, for our audience members, I know you've been Hogan certified for quite a while now.
[1:32] SPEAKER_05: Uh been partnering with Hogan since uh concentric days, and now continuing to partner with us in Spencer Stewart.
[1:39] SPEAKER_05: So, really excited to have you here on the podcast today and excited for some of the sessions we're gonna have together at Psyophobia.
[1:44] SPEAKER_05: Thanks for the next couple of days.
[1:45] SPEAKER_06: Very much looking forward to it as well.
[1:47] SPEAKER_08: Well, Brian, can you tell us a little bit about Spencer Stewart and the work you do?
[1:51] SPEAKER_06: Sure.
[1:51] SPEAKER_06: Uh the work that I primarily focused on, I would summarize, as leadership assessment, development, and executive coaching.
[1:58] SPEAKER_06: Um, and a myriad of things that go along with that, but Hogan has been an instrumental component of so many of our assessment and development programs.
[2:08] SPEAKER_06: Um, one of the philosophies, I guess, that I have and that we really have at Spencer Stewart is the notion of sort of multi-component assessment of leadership, right?
[2:19] SPEAKER_06: We can't understand somebody by a single measure.
[2:22] SPEAKER_06: Uh, and always we look to incorporate some form of personality leadership style assessment.
[2:28] SPEAKER_06: Hogan has become really a go-to because I think there are so many valuable components, especially in the leadership forecast series, not just around the impact of personality, the bright side, but also derailers and the dark side and Motors, values, and preferences.
[2:44] SPEAKER_06: And it is so valuable in terms of giving feedback and coaching as well.
[2:48] SPEAKER_05: Yeah, well, Brian, could you tell us a little bit about the, you know, maybe some, without naming any clients, right?
[2:54] SPEAKER_05: Any specific examples of how you've recently used Hogan, whether it's in a selection context or even a development context?
[3:00] SPEAKER_06: Yeah, probably more in development.
[3:02] SPEAKER_06: And again, a lot of times uh we'll utilize it as a pre-work assessment in a broader leadership development program to really begin to understand what is somebody's fundamental traits and characteristics, how do they tend to operate as a leader?
[3:18] SPEAKER_06: Uh a lot of times we'll incorporate a 360-degree survey as well.
[3:22] SPEAKER_06: Um, but oftentimes doing that up front gives us some valuable insight.
[3:27] SPEAKER_06: We'll often do sort of a debrief of the Hogan results in addition or in preparation for an on-site kind of in-person development experience, where a lot of times we'll use role play assessment, things like that, uh, to really gauge people's performance in realistic situations.
[3:46] SPEAKER_06: And what is nice is to go back and see how does that align with some of those results that are provided by Hogan.
[3:53] SPEAKER_05: Now, do you customize the development plan based on Hogan Assessment Results?
[3:57] SPEAKER_05: Does that sort of create some different flavor for each individual going through?
[4:00] SPEAKER_06: 100%.
[4:01] SPEAKER_06: So one of the outcomes of those uh programs, even if it's a group-based development experience, is ending up creating an individual development plan.
[4:09] SPEAKER_06: And that is often guided by some of the results of Hogan in conjunction with some of the other results.
[4:16] SPEAKER_06: But what are those fundamental opportunities for improvement?
[4:20] SPEAKER_06: I guess another thing I'll say that I love about Hogan is that it's not just understanding those traits and styles, but clear behavioral indicators of what can be done to enhance your effectiveness.
[4:32] SPEAKER_06: How does that play in a particular role in a particular level position or whatever?
[4:37] SPEAKER_06: So very helpful.
[4:38] SPEAKER_05: And what kind of responses do you get from participants who go through these leadership development programs?
[4:43] SPEAKER_08: Yeah, that was my next question.
[4:45] SPEAKER_08: I mean, like, are there any powerful reactions or like, you know, what's that like?
[4:49] SPEAKER_06: Generally, quite positive.
[4:51] SPEAKER_06: So I would say, I uh it's hard to say put a percentage, but I would say 85% of the time, people definitely resonate, say, oh, that it that really captured me.
[5:00] SPEAKER_06: That is really good insight.
[5:02] SPEAKER_06: Uh that's the way my friends, family would define me as well, probably.
[5:06] SPEAKER_06: Uh, but there are occasions where it's like, ah, I just don't see myself in that.
[5:10] SPEAKER_06: A lot of times it's it might relate more to derailers and things like that.
[5:13] SPEAKER_06: We don't want to admit some of our faults and foibles and things, but uh generally it is it is really valuable in terms of self-awareness, and I think that's the fundamental uh value of incorporating that.
[5:25] SPEAKER_06: It just opens people's eyes to understanding themselves uh better as a leader.
[5:30] SPEAKER_08: Well, you talked a little bit about the deraillers.
[5:33] SPEAKER_08: Um, do you ever find out that people actually kind of own them once they get them out in the open and they start realizing it?
[5:39] SPEAKER_06: I think they do, and again, I what I like about Hogan Reports is that it helps to understand what are the behavioral indicators, what does that mean for me as an individual in terms of how I might show up?
[5:49] SPEAKER_06: It's like, yeah, if I'm true to myself, I can see that's an issue, and I can see that if I continue to operate that way, it could be problematic.
[5:57] SPEAKER_06: So I think there is a real enlightenment that can happen, and people that resonates a lot of times with folks.
[6:03] SPEAKER_08: Very cool.
[6:04] SPEAKER_08: Well, Brian, we appreciate you coming on.
[6:07] SPEAKER_08: This has been a really fun little episode, and we're excited to get kicked off here in Psyop.
[6:11] SPEAKER_08: Uh, this will be the first one that'll be released, so thanks for thanks for coming on.
[6:14] SPEAKER_06: Thanks so much for having me.
[6:15] SPEAKER_06: Thank you.
[6:16] SPEAKER_06: Thank you both.
[6:19] SPEAKER_08: Hello, everybody, and welcome to the special edition of the Science of Personality live from Psyop in Denver.
[6:24] SPEAKER_08: In this episode, we're joined by Kevin Mitchell, talent and organizational development manager at the MIT Lincoln Laboratory, and Nadine Molly Acol, talent analytics consultant at Hogan Assessments, to talk about creativity and leadership.
[6:38] SPEAKER_08: So, Kevin, Nadine, welcome to the podcast.
[6:41] SPEAKER_04: Thank you for having us.
[6:42] SPEAKER_04: Thank you for having us.
[6:43] SPEAKER_05: Yeah, thanks for joining us today, uh, Kevin and Nadine.
[6:46] SPEAKER_05: Uh now, I understand not only are you two married, but Denver is a special place for you two.
[6:52] SPEAKER_05: Can you tell us a little bit about that?
[6:54] SPEAKER_04: Yeah, so just under 10 years ago, we met at this convention center at the American Psychological Association conference, and it was actually over creativity research because Division 10, shout out to Division 10.
[7:07] SPEAKER_04: Uh, they're creativity researchers.
[7:09] SPEAKER_04: Kevin was in the I.O.
[7:10] SPEAKER_04: world and I was trying to break into it, and I call it my best networking event because I found my husband and my advisor at this at one session.
[7:19] SPEAKER_05: But it was different, different people.
[7:21] SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
[7:22] SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
[7:22] SPEAKER_05: Yes.
[7:23] SPEAKER_05: Yes.
[7:24] SPEAKER_04: Yes.
[7:25] SPEAKER_04: No, Dr.
[7:25] SPEAKER_04: Ronnie Reuter Pullman.
[7:27] SPEAKER_04: Hey.
[7:27] SPEAKER_08: Well, hey, yeah, that's an awesome story.
[7:29] SPEAKER_08: And I'm so, you know, congratulations and welcome back to this special place.
[7:32] SPEAKER_08: Meeting right here.
[7:34] SPEAKER_08: So uh but let's get into this.
[7:36] SPEAKER_08: So the two of you are both creativity researchers, which, you know, I think that should work well for the two of you living under the same roof.
[7:42] SPEAKER_08: So can you tell us a little bit more about this research on creativity and leadership?
[7:46] SPEAKER_07: Yeah.
[7:47] SPEAKER_04: You want to take this one?
[7:49] SPEAKER_07: Yeah, so I would say that this all started, ooh, uh pre-pandemic, maybe 2017-2018.
[7:56] SPEAKER_07: Um I was doing creativity research for the first couple years of my grad school, a lot of individual and team and decision-making uh research, and started to look around at the literature and was not finding a lot of empirical studies, um, or were making a lot of leaps from some of the individual and you know, college student samples into leadership.
[8:18] SPEAKER_07: And so that kicked off a book chapter that I wrote with Ronnie around creative leadership and started to put together just some framework and some thought processes.
[8:26] SPEAKER_07: Uh, and then as Nadine came along and uh shared, hey, I I think there's this gap a little bit in creativity and leadership, uh, it triggered this.
[8:36] SPEAKER_07: Oh, well, we've actually started some of this work already, but she really supercharged it in terms of taking that next step, getting the research, getting some of the numbers behind it.
[8:48] SPEAKER_04: Well, yeah, in a little bit, because I looked at personality and creative leadership for my dissertation, but I do need a shout out, there's this article that's out there, I'm gonna butcher the name, but Maine Mellis et al.
[8:59] SPEAKER_04: 2015 really took stock of the literature that's out there on creativity and leadership.
[9:04] SPEAKER_04: Because it was, you know, it was a little all over the place, but they put it together.
[9:07] SPEAKER_04: It's a nice long article, but if you want to see how creativity and leadership really comes together, check out that article.
[9:14] SPEAKER_04: They basically boiled it down, taking stock of all the research that there are three different contexts in which leaders are working towards the attainment of creative outcomes.
[9:23] SPEAKER_04: And so that could be the leader supporting others' creativity and getting employees, for example, to be more creative.
[9:30] SPEAKER_04: The other context is the leader directing the creative enterprise.
[9:33] SPEAKER_04: So think of like your Steve Jobs.
[9:35] SPEAKER_04: Then there's the integrating context, which is a lot more complex, but everybody's essentially in that picture contributing creatively and supporting one another's creativity.
[9:44] SPEAKER_04: And they basically go into a very nice deep dive, taking stock of all the literature, kind of putting it together in a better space so that we can move forward from it.
[9:53] SPEAKER_04: And so that's really where I looked at that literature to build my dissertation work and bring in actually Hogan personality, specifically the Hogan Personality inventory, to better understand, okay, what personality factors are going to be helpful in understanding who will lead the creative enterprise better and who will support the creativity of others better.
[10:12] SPEAKER_04: So it's fun stuff.
[10:14] SPEAKER_05: Well, if I if you all don't mind, if I can back you up just a little bit here, right?
[10:19] SPEAKER_05: So the topic of creativity, typically in any psychological topic, we're talking about some way of assessing or measuring.
[10:27] SPEAKER_05: How do you really measure creativity?
[10:29] SPEAKER_05: Is it just the judgment from somebody else?
[10:32] SPEAKER_04: Yeah, there's various ways we can go about this.
[10:35] SPEAKER_04: Typically, what people think about is, oh, how many ideas can you come up with and how creative are those ideas?
[10:40] SPEAKER_04: But we have to start with the definition of creativity, right?
[10:42] SPEAKER_04: So it's to what extent something is novel and useful.
[10:46] SPEAKER_04: Because in the end, we're talking about coming up with the ideas, but it means nothing if they can't be implemented.
[10:52] SPEAKER_04: And so that was like a huge piece of creativity that a lot of people don't really know, is it's those two pieces that make something creative.
[11:00] SPEAKER_04: And then we're talking also when it comes to measurement, there are various ways we can go about it.
[11:04] SPEAKER_04: So idea generation is one way to get an idea of creative potential, but in our line of research with Dr.
[11:10] SPEAKER_04: Ronnie Ryder-Pallman, our advisor, she is a creative problem-solving person.
[11:16] SPEAKER_04: So we talk about how to come up with ideas that have problems, or come up with ideas to problems that are ambiguous, they don't have a clear answer to them.
[11:25] SPEAKER_04: So, what are you going to come up with to solve this thing that's never really been solved before?
[11:29] SPEAKER_04: And we rate those ideas for how novel they are, how useful they are, and that is a way to assess creativity.
[11:36] SPEAKER_04: The other way in organizations, of course, is through things like supervisor ratings, right?
[11:41] SPEAKER_04: So that has some pros and cons to it because, like I talked about, there are two, three contexts, but two contexts if you think about it, where the leader is either directing the creative enterprise or supporting one another's creative enterprise.
[11:53] SPEAKER_04: And so I think we could do a little bit better in organizations to ensure that we are assessing creativity, one, if it's required on the job, but two, who is the best person to speak to that and be a witness to it and actually know that it's needed.
[12:07] SPEAKER_04: So supervisor readings is typically how you see it in the research literature, but direct reports probably also have some stake in reporting on that too, depending on the context, creativity has to happen.
[12:17] SPEAKER_07: Yeah, there's I guess there's just like one thing that I want to build from that is uh to Nadine's early point there, I think we tend to over-emphasize the originality component and forget sometimes about the effectiveness or the quality of the component aspect there.
[12:34] SPEAKER_07: Um and then when we take that step back, we do focus a lot on the creative product or the outcome because that's something that's tangible, it's something that we can see.
[12:42] SPEAKER_07: Um they're making something new, they're coming up with a new idea, uh, it's it's something we can point to.
[12:47] SPEAKER_07: Uh but we do have a lot of different frameworks and creativity research of how to actually kind of piece or parse apart well, how are we assessing or looking at creativity?
[12:56] SPEAKER_07: So you have creative problem solving, uh, there's a lot of different models out there, but really an old and tried and true model that we we tend to work around is uh the four Ps.
[13:06] SPEAKER_07: So you look at the creative person, you look at the creative process, you look at the creative product, and you look at the creative press.
[13:12] SPEAKER_07: Um, press being the environment environment.
[13:14] SPEAKER_07: It's just sounds better for four Psalm.
[13:18] SPEAKER_05: So well, okay, so let's let's dive into the leadership side then.
[13:23] SPEAKER_05: Uh I mean I think a really fundamental question heard many times before, but I don't really know that we have a good answer.
[13:30] SPEAKER_05: Maybe you all have a good answer to it, is uh in in many organizations there are creative teams.
[13:34] SPEAKER_05: There's a product innovation team, uh in uh and obviously in Hollywood there's lots of creativity around, whether it's art or film or whatever it is.
[13:43] SPEAKER_05: Um and and there's usually teams of people who are working on this.
[13:47] SPEAKER_05: So it seems to me that the important question is how do you lead a creative team?
[13:53] SPEAKER_05: Anything the research has to tell us on that?
[13:55] SPEAKER_04: You want to take it for the first one?
[13:57] SPEAKER_07: Uh yeah.
[13:58] SPEAKER_07: Umide and can probably speak more fluently than I can on maybe some of the research aspects of it.
[14:04] SPEAKER_04: Go for it.
[14:05] SPEAKER_07: Um but I think that's where that's that's been the nut that, at least from my perspective, hasn't been fully cracked in terms of the research.
[14:14] SPEAKER_07: Uh and there's a lot of different streams that are are playing around this.
[14:18] SPEAKER_07: So you have a healthy body of Teams literature, you have a healthy body of innovation research from psych and business professors, and you have a healthy amount of leadership studies.
[14:27] SPEAKER_07: But it's we don't see it as often getting combined together.
[14:32] SPEAKER_07: Um and some of that is uh finding the right businesses, finding the right teams.
[14:37] SPEAKER_07: So you mentioned like Hollywood production.
[14:39] SPEAKER_07: A lot of the ones that you'll actually see out in research are RD teams.
[14:43] SPEAKER_07: Um so really then what it comes down to is okay, well, what what are we measuring then?
[14:48] SPEAKER_07: Like how are we capturing this?
[14:49] SPEAKER_07: And uh the criterion that they're looking at are things like patents or um you know money that's coming in from new ideas or i with the film industry, it's awards or things like that.
[15:00] SPEAKER_07: And so while those can be useful proxies, um I don't know if they're truly fully aligned with really capturing, okay, well, what is the secret sauce that if you could take a playbook and say this is exactly how you need to build a team to be creative, um I don't know if we have a strong answer necessarily, other than what I would probably say is good practices around teaming, good practices around leadership, if then your performance is dictated on we're holding you accountable to come up with new things.
[15:29] SPEAKER_07: I think those are the tried and true methods, so maybe it's demystifying it a little bit that uh around creative teams, but I think leaning back in on some of those traditional research streams that we have can really help us just attack that problem in a practical and applied way much better.
[15:46] SPEAKER_04: I think it's just also like being aware as a leader of when things could be, you know, percolating, right?
[15:53] SPEAKER_04: So it it really gets stunted if a leader is not gonna be uh open to others' ideas, exploring things further.
[16:01] SPEAKER_04: The whole idea of supporting one another's creativity, I think, is so important here because in the end, decisions are gonna be made, and decisions are gonna be made off of whether they can be implementable, whether they'll fail.
[16:13] SPEAKER_04: But if you don't allow that space to think about, you know, whatever it is that you're trying to be creative around, and maybe it's not intentional, but like fostering a space where people can ask questions, to lean into whatever they're thinking, explore it, the whole idea of failing fast and all that stuff has actually got something to it because you do want people to move through essentially the creative process.
[16:35] SPEAKER_04: You want to give them the space to be able to do that, and it really, it kind of starts and ends with leadership in my opinion, especially top down.
[16:42] SPEAKER_04: I mean, everybody in every company says that things like creativity and innovation are things that they prize, but are you really walking the walk?
[16:49] SPEAKER_04: I don't know.
[16:49] SPEAKER_04: And it starts with the top and ensuring that trickles all the way down.
[16:53] SPEAKER_07: And I I would say like that last point that you just made is um every company says they want creativity.
[16:59] SPEAKER_07: I would I would say that to actually structure and actually have your leadership teams support that in meaningful ways is is really is challenging.
[17:07] SPEAKER_07: Um because a lot of times businesses aren't built or made to creativity by its definition is somewhat something abnormal.
[17:15] SPEAKER_07: Yeah.
[17:16] SPEAKER_04: Um and so I mean there's a conversation around is it an OCV, is it a CWB, like is it a counterproductive work behavior, is it something you want for performance?
[17:24] SPEAKER_04: Is it actually something that just enhances your typical performance?
[17:27] SPEAKER_04: So we talk about that often as what is creativity for the person in their role at their job.
[17:32] SPEAKER_07: So organizations sometimes have organ rejection because you're pushing the boundaries of things and you're actually being deviant in a way.
[17:42] SPEAKER_07: Yeah.
[17:43] SPEAKER_07: Um, which is probably not the message uh around creativity because we think of it as a good thing, but when you look at it, it's really pushing kind of those norms.
[17:53] SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
[17:54] SPEAKER_08: Well, I guess so.
[17:54] SPEAKER_08: My last question here before we let you all go is that being that both of you are creativity researchers, do the two of you consider yourselves to be like the creative types?
[18:02] SPEAKER_08: Like that's what I I'm curious about, or like how did that interest part?
[18:06] SPEAKER_04: I think being aware of it has helped me be probably perceived as a little bit more on the creative side, but truly, like without doing this research and being in it, I like to practice what I preach, and so I try to embody the things that I like am touting, right, in my research or when I talk to people about this space, it's like, who am I to just like say no, put that idea away.
[18:26] SPEAKER_04: No, I want to explore, I want people to lean into those things.
[18:29] SPEAKER_04: So I think it's more like an interaction of various personality characteristics that I have on my Hogan that are probably coming in to make it seem like I'm somebody who would foster creativity or be creative themselves, but it's really knowledge is power, and I think that honestly, when it comes to leaders and trying to ensure that they are fostering an environment that allows for creative outcomes, it does start with just having the knowledge about that space.
[18:51] SPEAKER_04: A lot of people don't know that creativity is quite defined, and it has been since 1950, Guilford's address saying, hey, we need to know more about creativity in a world where automation is like taking over, and that couldn't be truer today.
[19:03] SPEAKER_07: Yeah.
[19:04] SPEAKER_07: Kevin?
[19:05] SPEAKER_07: Yeah, um, I guess we study the things that we're not good at and don't understand.
[19:10] SPEAKER_07: So uh am I creative type?
[19:12] SPEAKER_07: I probably wouldn't go that far.
[19:13] SPEAKER_07: Uh like Nadine, just understanding.
[19:16] SPEAKER_07: I'd say find for me at least, I really enjoy um like finding new challenges and doing new things, and I like to think that maybe that would put me in a more creative uh spot than normal.
[19:29] SPEAKER_07: Uh, but no, I probably would not consider myself a creative.
[19:33] SPEAKER_04: He says that, but he's being modest.
[19:35] SPEAKER_04: You can look at his at his hobbies even.
[19:37] SPEAKER_04: He's very, very he's always doing things in creative spaces, but yeah, in the end, I think we're probably a little humble.
[19:43] SPEAKER_04: We're probably just saying no, we're not that creative, we don't really have good ideas, but we're doing okay.
[19:48] SPEAKER_08: Well, either way, we want to keep we want to see you continue doing the research because that was really fascinating.
[19:53] SPEAKER_08: We appreciate you coming on the podcast to talk about it.
[19:55] SPEAKER_08: So thank you.
[19:56] SPEAKER_07: Yeah, yeah, thank you guys.
[20:03] SPEAKER_08: Hello everybody, and welcome to the special edition of the Science of Personality live from PsyOp in Denver.
[20:09] SPEAKER_08: In this episode, we're joined by Dr.
[20:10] SPEAKER_08: Kamala Shahani Denning, Senior Vice Provost and Professor of Psychology at Hofstra University, to talk about the benefits she's seen with graduate students getting Hogan certified.
[20:21] SPEAKER_08: So, Kamala, welcome to the podcast.
[20:23] SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
[20:24] SPEAKER_02: So pleased to be here.
[20:26] SPEAKER_08: So, okay, Kamala, can you tell us a little bit about this uh partnership between Hogan and Hofstra?
[20:31] SPEAKER_08: I mean, it's been going on for a while now, so why don't you give our listeners a little bit of a background on how it started and where it's grown to since then?
[20:39] SPEAKER_02: So, this has been one of my most successful programs that I created for our graduate students at Hofstra, and something I'm really proud of.
[20:47] SPEAKER_02: And it started about seven years ago, so it's been going on for a long time.
[20:53] SPEAKER_02: But it was really thinking about as graduate programs grow, and there's many more IO psychology graduate programs, what can we give our students that makes them stand out from other students?
[21:05] SPEAKER_02: So, what kind of competitive edge can we give our students?
[21:08] SPEAKER_02: At the same time that I have that going on in my mind, the dean of the business school was thinking about what he could do for his graduate students.
[21:16] SPEAKER_02: And in a conversation that we had, we talked about wouldn't it be wonderful if my students could work with them building their leadership skills?
[21:26] SPEAKER_02: Because as we all know, you know, leader leaders fail because of soft skills, not technical skills.
[21:32] SPEAKER_02: Um their executive MBA program in our business school is a lot of the students are doctors, so they're all physicians, mid to senior level physicians who are fantastic doctors, maybe not such great leaders.
[21:49] SPEAKER_02: Um Hogan being, you know, in my mind the gold standard of uh executive assessment, I immediately thought about how could we make that work.
[22:00] SPEAKER_02: So we created a program where the students in my program get certified on the Hogan.
[22:05] SPEAKER_02: And Hogan has been very generous in discounting the price for the students and as well as our program supports some of the expense for our students.
[22:17] SPEAKER_02: So our students get certified, then the doctoral students take a class with me, and in that class we practice giving Hogan feedback, we practice having them write scripts, and we go through some of the coaching, and then I use some of the work that I went through when I went through my certification in terms of best practices.
[22:40] SPEAKER_02: And then they coach the executive MBA students to Hogan.
[22:46] SPEAKER_02: So that's the big the program in a nutshell.
[22:48] SPEAKER_05: Yeah, I I really love this program.
[22:50] SPEAKER_05: I think it's one of our the best programs that we do at Hogan.
[22:54] SPEAKER_05: And as you said, Kamala, we've been doing it for a number of years.
[22:56] SPEAKER_05: One of my favorite things about it is I, you know, having an academic background myself, I often think about one of the things that we do at Hogan is educate, right?
[23:04] SPEAKER_05: Part of what we're doing is educating.
[23:06] SPEAKER_05: So I love this tie-in back to education.
[23:09] SPEAKER_05: Educating people about personality, educating people about leadership, the connection between personality and leadership.
[23:15] SPEAKER_05: Kamala, could you talk a little bit about how you you, is there any method to how you pair students up with the people in the business school or anything on that front?
[23:24] SPEAKER_02: So we haven't been using any kind of formal method.
[23:27] SPEAKER_02: The first couple of years we we did, we tried to pair students, and then we decided not to.
[23:32] SPEAKER_02: The only thing that we do is we give them a range of experience.
[23:35] SPEAKER_02: So we'll pick based on like leadership rank, we'll make sure that every student gets senior leaders, mid-level leaders, and maybe early career so that they get the exposure to all the different kinds of expertise that might be required for that.
[23:51] SPEAKER_05: So how many uh debriefs or how many sort of coaching sessions is each student doing typically?
[23:57] SPEAKER_02: So this past year, I think each student did about 11.
[24:00] SPEAKER_02: Wow.
[24:01] SPEAKER_02: And so it's it's it's fast paced because we spend the first half of the semester prepping the students, and then the second half of the semester they're scheduling the calls.
[24:11] SPEAKER_05: Yeah, and that to me that's such a great experience for both parties, right?
[24:15] SPEAKER_05: Not only does this business leader get the feedback, and you know, and in this case, since they're mostly doctors, right, maybe get something that's gonna improve their performance as they move into a leadership role as a as a medical professional, uh, but the students are getting this critical practice, uh, because we know, you know, working with so many coaches and consultants over many years, getting that practice delivering feedback is so valuable.
[24:39] SPEAKER_05: So to me, I think this is just a beautiful partnership, you know, tying those two pieces together.
[24:43] SPEAKER_02: And I see by the end of the semester, when you talk to the students, they don't need to prep as much.
[24:48] SPEAKER_02: They've learned the tool, they've learned the skills, they know which ones go with the others, which skills partner.
[24:55] SPEAKER_02: And they're learning professional skills, they're learning how to communicate, they're learning what to do when somebody doesn't like the feedback, they're learning what to do when they send out a request for a meeting and this the doctor doesn't show up because there's other things happening in the doctor's life and the call just doesn't happen.
[25:13] SPEAKER_02: So it so it's it's all of the Hogan coaching, but it's also just the practice that will make them a professional once they graduate.
[25:21] SPEAKER_05: Yeah, so so this is part of a sort of a, you know, your obviously your entire program for your students.
[25:26] SPEAKER_05: Um what do most of the students sort of take away, not from just this aspect of the program, but the whole program?
[25:32] SPEAKER_05: What do they go on to do typically afterwards?
[25:34] SPEAKER_02: So they they go on to a range of different uh disciplines.
[25:37] SPEAKER_02: Some of them will be in leadership, some not.
[25:39] SPEAKER_02: One of them actually is working for you right now, uh, Tony Cow.
[25:43] SPEAKER_02: Ah, okay.
[25:44] SPEAKER_02: Yes, yes.
[25:44] SPEAKER_02: He's one of our success stories.
[25:46] SPEAKER_02: Um but they go on to different things.
[25:49] SPEAKER_02: Some of them use the Hogan in their lives, but the one thing that they're all doing is they they've learned that when you're doing personality assessment, you're not going to just use any tool, but you're going to use a tool that you can stand behind, that you can validate.
[26:02] SPEAKER_02: And I think the best feeling is when you give feedback and the person says to, and the students have reported this to me, you know me so well.
[26:11] SPEAKER_02: And that's a very powerful kind of tool, then.
[26:15] SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
[26:16] SPEAKER_08: And what I love about this is that I feel like word is going to spread among, at least in the business community, or for employers looking for potential, you know, people to recruit coming out, they're going to know that students who went through this program are getting that kind of experience.
[26:31] SPEAKER_08: That really, I mean, I think about just the experience of my discipline, which was in journalism and broadcasting, in the PR side of things.
[26:39] SPEAKER_08: I didn't really learn much until I got out and started to put it in practice.
[26:43] SPEAKER_08: That's when I feel like I learned like 80% of what I know now.
[26:47] SPEAKER_08: But I feel like these students are really getting a leg up on the competition coming out.
[26:50] SPEAKER_08: They're going to be so much more prepared for the working world because of this.
[26:55] SPEAKER_02: And they very quickly learn if this is something that they want to pursue in the future or if this is something they just have in their back pocket that it's a skill that they have, and even if it doesn't translate to them in their immediate next job, but maybe down the road, it's something that they will use.
[27:10] SPEAKER_08: And then they're Hogan certified forever.
[27:11] SPEAKER_02: And then they're Hogan certified forever.
[27:13] SPEAKER_08: Well, Kamala, this has been a great conversation.
[27:15] SPEAKER_08: We're so happy you joined us here, and uh we look forward to doing more work with Hofster in the future.
[27:20] SPEAKER_02: Thank you, and thanks for the invitation.
[27:26] SPEAKER_08: Hello, everybody, and welcome to the special edition of the Science of Personality live from PSYOP in Denver.
[27:32] SPEAKER_08: In this episode, we're joined by Nicole Dickey, a senior consultant on Hogan's International Distributors team, to talk about some of the early findings we're seeing on Hogan's Global Leadership Effectiveness Survey.
[27:43] SPEAKER_08: For our loyal listeners, you'll probably remember an episode we did late last year with Krista Petterson, who spoke about the survey as we were launching it.
[27:51] SPEAKER_08: Well, today, Nicole is here to talk about the results we're seeing so far.
[27:55] SPEAKER_08: So, Nicole, welcome to the podcast.
[27:58] SPEAKER_03: Thank you so much for having me, Blake.
[27:59] SPEAKER_05: Yeah, welcome to the podcast, Nicole.
[28:01] SPEAKER_05: It's great to have you on here finally.
[28:03] SPEAKER_05: Uh enjoyed seeing your presentation yesterday, talking a little about these results, and looking forward to sharing it with our listeners here today.
[28:09] SPEAKER_03: Thank you.
[28:10] SPEAKER_08: Well, okay, so Nicole, can you give our listeners just a refresher on what we're trying to accomplish with the Global Leadership Effectiveness Survey, or the GLESS as we call it?
[28:19] SPEAKER_03: Yes.
[28:19] SPEAKER_03: Yeah, so at a high level, we're actually curious about what individuals across the world think about make an effective leader.
[28:28] SPEAKER_03: So we're asking about perceptions of idea leadership.
[28:31] SPEAKER_03: The way that we're doing that is we're actually using Hogan's job analysis tool, and we've kind of reformatted it asking about the role of an idea leader.
[28:41] SPEAKER_03: Then we're giving people prompts of different behaviors and asking, is that helpful or harmful to performance for your idea leader?
[28:49] SPEAKER_03: And really the background here is that through our experiences with leaders in our life, coaches, just interactions with leaders, we start to form a prototype in our mind about what makes a good or a perfect leader, what we think about when we think of a leader.
[29:05] SPEAKER_03: Doesn't come from theory, doesn't come from schooling.
[29:08] SPEAKER_03: So we're just trying to figure out are those ideas through experiences with leaders the same or different across the world?
[29:16] SPEAKER_08: Okay, so well let's let's let's hear it.
[29:20] SPEAKER_08: So what are we seeing in the early findings?
[29:22] SPEAKER_08: Any any surprises or common themes that you're seeing?
[29:26] SPEAKER_03: Yeah, so we had some research questions basically around are there similarities and are there differences?
[29:31] SPEAKER_03: So the sample that I'm gonna talk about here is actually from 10 different countries.
[29:36] SPEAKER_03: So let me tell you the countries that we've included: Australia, uh, Greater China, including mainland China and Taiwan, India, the UK, Czech Republic, Germany, South Africa, Hungary, and the US.
[29:48] SPEAKER_03: Okay, so a good a good swath, but right now we're in the middle of data collection, so this is just a sample.
[29:54] SPEAKER_03: Um, so definitely want everyone to continue participating.
[29:58] SPEAKER_03: Uh so the first research question is really are there similarities?
[30:02] SPEAKER_03: And that answer is yes.
[30:04] SPEAKER_03: We're seeing similarities on the five-factor model, which is you know Hogan's personality inventory, and there are similarities on the dark side.
[30:13] SPEAKER_03: So Hogan's development survey.
[30:15] SPEAKER_03: And what we find is that across the world, individuals do endorse, yes, we want a leader who is resilient, optimistic, emotionally stable.
[30:25] SPEAKER_03: That is good for leader performance.
[30:28] SPEAKER_03: We also want a leader who is studious, analytical, learned on a variety of topics.
[30:33] SPEAKER_03: So learning approach also has a good for performance.
[30:37] SPEAKER_03: But when we look at general trends, so there was alignment, meaning there's no statistically significant differences on those two scales, but in general, there is positive endorsement of all scales on the five-factor model.
[30:50] SPEAKER_03: So we are across the world, they're endorsing in a variety of strengths on some of these scales, but it's positive that yes, all elements of the five-factor model we say is good for ideal leadership.
[31:04] SPEAKER_05: That's interesting, so even sociability, because that would be one that I would think, yeah, maybe people wouldn't say that's important for leadership.
[31:10] SPEAKER_05: So even that's getting a positive endorsement.
[31:12] SPEAKER_03: It is, yeah.
[31:13] SPEAKER_03: So when we look at the kind of the other research question or the differences, we do see some variety of endorsement on sociability, as well as interpersonal sensitivity.
[31:23] SPEAKER_03: But I would say of the five-factor model, sociability is the lowest endorsed as good for performance.
[31:29] SPEAKER_05: Okay, okay.
[31:29] SPEAKER_05: If that makes sense.
[31:30] SPEAKER_05: Well, yeah, it does.
[31:31] SPEAKER_05: Well, well, why don't you just talk to us a little bit about that, about um where you so you've talked about seeing some similarity, but talk to us a little bit about where you're seeing some differences as well.
[31:41] SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
[31:41] SPEAKER_03: Yeah, so if we dive into the differences on the five-factor model, I think that the getting along scales are interesting to think about because when you walk into a new country, the way that individuals communicate tends to be the most salient, especially if you're doing business or even personal interactions.
[31:59] SPEAKER_03: So we do see differences on sociability and interpersonal sensitivity.
[32:03] SPEAKER_03: Particularly on sociability, there were some countries that thought that it was more important to be gregarious and to be proactively communicating, etc.
[32:13] SPEAKER_03: Those countries are Germany, Hungary, and Greater China.
[32:16] SPEAKER_03: So both mainland China and Taiwan.
[32:18] SPEAKER_03: Then when we look at interpersonal sensitivity, there's almost a gap between greater Chinese respondents and everybody else.
[32:25] SPEAKER_03: Um most of the respondents are saying we do want a leader who's warm, diplomatic, and tactful, but mainland Chinese and Taiwanese respondents don't find that as important.
[32:35] SPEAKER_03: Interesting.
[32:36] SPEAKER_05: Well, yeah, and I I think you're sort of when you hear about these kind of things, do you sort of naturally try to come up with explanations for why that would be?
[32:43] SPEAKER_05: But you listed there uh Hungary, Germany, Germany, and Greater China.
[32:48] SPEAKER_05: Yeah, and it's uh you know, I I have a I struggle to say, well, you know what is the cultural factor there.
[32:54] SPEAKER_05: I know.
[32:55] SPEAKER_05: Uh any thoughts?
[32:57] SPEAKER_03: Yeah, so I think this is another element of the study and kind of a a way that a different way that we're approaching kind of this idea of cultural differences.
[33:06] SPEAKER_03: We're looking at this by country.
[33:08] SPEAKER_03: And the rationale for that is really that political and economic boundaries actually uh basically create structures that organizations are operating in certain structures.
[33:22] SPEAKER_03: The leaders who are rising to the top of organizations are operating under those structures for legitimacy and support.
[33:28] SPEAKER_03: So we're actually not looking at it by kind of cultural dimensions, but by country.
[33:33] SPEAKER_03: Um the interesting thing though is we we are seeing quite a bit of similarity between uh Greater China, you know, across there.
[33:41] SPEAKER_05: Very cool.
[33:42] SPEAKER_05: So you you talked about sort of bright side or five-factor model differences.
[33:48] SPEAKER_05: Obviously, one of the advantages of using Hogan is we have a dark side measure, a values measure.
[33:53] SPEAKER_05: Can you talk to us a little bit about what we're seeing on the dark side?
[33:55] SPEAKER_03: Yeah, this is where I think more interesting elements arise or findings arise.
[34:00] SPEAKER_03: So when we look at similarities across the world, everyone is saying that high cautious, so being risk averse, overly careful, that is universally bad for an effective leader.
[34:14] SPEAKER_03: But when we look at differences, we actually see differences in perceptions of helpful versus harmful on two scales.
[34:24] SPEAKER_03: Colorful, so being attention-seeking and self-promoting, and diligent, micromanaging and perfectionistic.
[34:31] SPEAKER_03: So when we dive into these countries' differences, we actually see that mainland China and Taiwan endorse colorful as positive for leadership.
[34:41] SPEAKER_03: So again, being that self-promoting, uh outgoing, dramatic, and then on diligent, there's a bigger split.
[34:49] SPEAKER_03: So Indian, South African, Hungarian, and Greater Chinese respondents say yes.
[34:54] SPEAKER_03: Being micromanaging, being um very perfectionistic is good for performance.
[35:00] SPEAKER_08: Really?
[35:01] SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah, like solidly.
[35:03] SPEAKER_03: Like moderate uh Taiwanese respondents, their mean is about uh 0.7, meaning like it's it's moderately positively endorsed that this is good.
[35:12] SPEAKER_05: And this is on a negative two to positive two scale.
[35:15] SPEAKER_05: So a negative two meaning would be very detrimental.
[35:20] SPEAKER_05: Uh I wouldn't want to see my leader doing this.
[35:23] SPEAKER_05: A positive would be say, yeah, I would want to see my leader doing this.
[35:26] SPEAKER_05: Correct.
[35:26] SPEAKER_05: So that's kind of interesting.
[35:27] SPEAKER_05: Some of the HDS show up as positive, right?
[35:29] SPEAKER_05: You might think, oh, I mean, some people think HDS is always bad, always bad for leadership, but even here we're seeing that.
[35:36] SPEAKER_05: No, there are some behaviors people want to see in their leaders.
[35:39] SPEAKER_03: Correct.
[35:40] SPEAKER_05: Really interesting.
[35:41] SPEAKER_03: Yeah, one one of the I think the things that we would like to do moving forward, this is not in these analyses, is to look at some of our leader emergent benchmarks to be able to see, okay, where where are leaders in the US falling on these, on the bright side and dark side?
[35:59] SPEAKER_03: What are individuals saying from the US they want to see in their leaders?
[36:04] SPEAKER_03: Because if if we're thinking that experiences with leaders lead to your perception of what makes a good leader, I'm just curious how those trends might play out.
[36:13] SPEAKER_03: Um, you know, in for example, like in Taiwan or in India, are we seeing high diligent behaviors and that's why they're thinking it's good, or are we seeing no dilig, low diligent behaviors, and that lack really makes something desirable?
[36:28] SPEAKER_05: Now, I don't remember from yesterday or not.
[36:30] SPEAKER_05: I remember bright side and dark side, but did you talk about the values yesterday?
[36:34] SPEAKER_05: Have we analyzed?
[36:36] SPEAKER_05: We haven't analyzed values yet.
[36:37] SPEAKER_05: I know, so that's forthcoming.
[36:39] SPEAKER_03: Okay.
[36:39] SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I'm super curious about the MVPI.
[36:41] SPEAKER_08: Well, very cool.
[36:42] SPEAKER_08: So what's the what's kind of the in-game here?
[36:45] SPEAKER_08: What's the goal?
[36:45] SPEAKER_08: What are we trying to get out of all of this at the end of the room?
[36:49] SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I think from just a deliverable perspective, we want to be able to produce some findings to be able to share with the market, share with the US market, but share globally.
[37:01] SPEAKER_03: You know, with with Hogan, we operate on a distributor model.
[37:04] SPEAKER_03: So I'm supporting my distributors in the Asia Pacific region, and we've had really a number of distributors participate in the study, so we want to be able to support them and in having things to share about their markets, findings to share in their in their markets.
[37:19] SPEAKER_05: So I think, you know, sorry, I was gonna say, yeah, I think I agree with you.
[37:23] SPEAKER_05: I think that's a really powerful outcome that we can be able to say something specific in a particular market in a particular region.
[37:28] SPEAKER_05: Um but yeah, go ahead.
[37:29] SPEAKER_03: No, no, no, that was the that was the summary.
[37:31] SPEAKER_03: So being able to enable it.
[37:33] SPEAKER_05: Well, but I also think there is this notion of, you know, I think there is a broader perspective on what do people want in leaders?
[37:40] SPEAKER_05: I think a lot of leadership models that you see today come from organizations.
[37:44] SPEAKER_05: Uh organizations say, hey, this is what a leader should be like, and that's sort of according to that organization.
[37:50] SPEAKER_05: Totally.
[37:51] SPEAKER_05: Um HR units in companies say this is what leaders should be like here.
[37:55] SPEAKER_05: But the question is, are those different?
[37:57] SPEAKER_05: Are there diff, you know, should does an engineering company need to be led differently from an accounting company?
[38:03] SPEAKER_05: Uh and I think that applies the same way here.
[38:05] SPEAKER_05: The people in this region of the world want to be led differently.
[38:08] SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
[38:09] SPEAKER_05: The other thing I think I I would do is I would try to encourage more of our listeners, because you mentioned 10 countries here, and I know we have data from some other countries as well, but we'd really like to grow our sample size across all the countries, all the regions and markets that we work in.
[38:22] SPEAKER_03: Yep.
[38:23] SPEAKER_03: Good pitch.
[38:24] SPEAKER_03: Thanks, Ryan.
[38:25] SPEAKER_03: Participate, please.
[38:26] SPEAKER_08: Well, Nicole, and that's that's the key thing here.
[38:29] SPEAKER_08: So for all of our listeners who, you know, if if you listen to this, we would like for you to look down in the show description.
[38:34] SPEAKER_08: We're gonna have a link to the survey there.
[38:36] SPEAKER_08: You can go in, you can take it.
[38:37] SPEAKER_08: Uh, I know we want to get, of course, as many re as as many respondents as we can, but it sounds really interesting that these early findings are showing us what we're seeing.
[38:46] SPEAKER_08: And Nicole, we just really appreciate you coming on and talking with us.
[38:49] SPEAKER_03: Thank you so much.
[38:49] SPEAKER_03: Thanks for having me.
[38:50] SPEAKER_03: It was great to chat.
[38:51] SPEAKER_03: Thanks, Nicole.
[38:56] SPEAKER_01: This has been the Science of Personality Podcast, brought to you by Hogan Assessments.
[39:01] SPEAKER_01: You can access all episodes on our website, science of personality.com, or on the streaming service of your choice.
[39:08] SPEAKER_01: See you next time.

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