# Personality and the Secret Life of Organizations

An episode of [The Science of Personality Podcast](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1517116280), 16 Jun 2026, 51 min.

Audio: https://www.buzzsprout.com/1134107/episodes/19355950-personality-and-the-secret-life-of-organizations.mp3

In the latest episode of The Science of Personality, Ryne and Blake are joined by Hogan Assessments founder and president, Robert Hogan, PhD, to talk about his new book, Personality and the Secret Life of Organizations. If you’ve listened to even one episode of this podcast, it is highly likely you have been impacted by this man because that’s the magnitude of his legacy on personality psychology. So, we were thrilled to have him on this episode to talk about the book and learn more about what he means by “the secret life of organizations.” Buy the book: Personality and the Secret Life of Organizations

## Transcript

[0:04] SPEAKER_01: People.
[0:04] SPEAKER_01: One of the most consequential and dangerous forces on earth.
[0:09] SPEAKER_01: Technology is about the nature of human nature, it's about people.
[0:12] SPEAKER_01: And wouldn't that be useful to me?
[0:14] SPEAKER_01: It seems to me.
[0:14] SPEAKER_01: I can I can't think of a more important people.
[0:37] SPEAKER_00: This podcast is more than personality of life.
[0:40] SPEAKER_00: Leadership in the nature of human nature.
[0:48] SPEAKER_03: Hello, everybody, and welcome to the Science of Personality Podcast.
[0:51] SPEAKER_03: I'm your host, Ryan Sherman, along with my co-host, as always, Blake Lipp.
[0:56] SPEAKER_03: Say hello, Blake.
[0:58] SPEAKER_04: Hello, everybody, and welcome back to the Science of Personality Podcast, episode 152.
[1:03] SPEAKER_04: Today, Ryan and I are joined by a man who needs no introduction, but we're going to do a proper introduction anyway.
[1:10] SPEAKER_04: Dr.
[1:10] SPEAKER_04: Robert Hogan is joining us for this very special episode to talk about his new book, Personality and the Secret Life of Organizations.
[1:19] SPEAKER_04: If you've listened to even one episode of this podcast, it is highly likely you have been impacted by this man because that's the magnitude of his legacy on personality psychology.
[1:29] SPEAKER_04: So we're excited to have him on the show today to talk about the book and learn more about what he means by quote the secret life of organizations.
[1:39] SPEAKER_04: But before we get to our conversation with Dr.
[1:41] SPEAKER_04: Hogan, or R.T.
[1:43] SPEAKER_04: as we call him, so you'll hear us referring to him as that.
[1:47] SPEAKER_04: If you wish to give us any ideas for upcoming episodes or you want to ask Reiner Me a question, shoot us an email at hello at the science of personality.com or follow the science of personality on LinkedIn.
[1:59] SPEAKER_04: Now, let's get to it.
[2:01] SPEAKER_04: RT, welcome to the podcast.
[2:03] SPEAKER_04: Is there anything you'd like to share with our audience before we get started?
[2:07] SPEAKER_02: Yes.
[2:08] SPEAKER_02: When I was one born, I was really young and it's gone downhill since then.
[2:15] SPEAKER_04: Well, that's that's uh that's a great way to put it, RT, and uh I couldn't agree with you more.
[2:21] SPEAKER_04: Ryan, what are your thoughts?
[2:22] SPEAKER_03: Well, uh look, I just want to say thanks uh again for for geez, I don't know how many times you've come on our podcast now, RT.
[2:29] SPEAKER_03: It's always great to have you on here and to hear uh about the latest uh thinking you've you're doing around personality psychology and organizational effectiveness, as I know you know that's sort of uh been more of your your transition in terms of thinking over the say the past maybe, I don't know, decade or so.
[2:47] SPEAKER_03: I see I sort of see your career as starting out with really sort of more of the minutiae in personality psychology, very sort of narrow concepts and then broadening and broadening and broadening to bigger and bigger ideas.
[3:00] SPEAKER_03: And I think uh for me, this book really represents that broadening of ideas to the highest level.
[3:06] SPEAKER_03: So uh super excited to talk with you about it today.
[3:11] SPEAKER_03: I don't know if you agree with me, R.T.
[3:12] SPEAKER_03: Do you think?
[3:13] SPEAKER_03: Sorry, go ahead.
[3:14] SPEAKER_02: Uh that's exactly how I would characterize the the progress, and I and that's very smart of you.
[3:21] SPEAKER_04: Well, RT, Ryan's a lot smarter than I am, but you know, we're gonna go ahead and give this a go and see if we I can get through this, you know, with the the brain power that I have.
[3:30] SPEAKER_04: So, RT, many of our listeners have probably read your book, uh Personality and the Fate of Organizations.
[3:37] SPEAKER_04: So is this new book, Personality and the Secret Life of Organizations, a sequel, or would you mind elaborating on that a bit?
[3:45] SPEAKER_04: Because it feels like a sequel to me.
[3:48] SPEAKER_02: Well, when uh when I moved to Tulsa in 1982, I moved there to start a PhD program in IO psychology with a focus on on personality.
[3:59] SPEAKER_02: But I didn't know anything about IO psychology.
[4:01] SPEAKER_02: I knew about personnel selection using personality, but I didn't know anything about Iowa.
[4:05] SPEAKER_02: And so I ended up teaching the graduate, the introduction graduate course and the course introduction to IO psychology.
[4:12] SPEAKER_02: And what I discovered almost immediately was that IOpsychology is a lot like social psychology, it's just a collection of topics with no connecting tissue, no intellectual theme running through it.
[4:23] SPEAKER_02: And so I wrote that first book, uh personality fate organizations, as a as an antidote.
[4:30] SPEAKER_02: I want to I took various topics from IO psychology and tried to show how personality could be the best way to understand that particular issue.
[4:38] SPEAKER_02: So that first book was basically just a collection of it was like trying to rectify the the shortcomings of traditional textbooks in IO psychology.
[4:48] SPEAKER_02: The second book is Wendy and my wife asked me to write a book on the Hogan point of view, the Hogan point of view on leadership, the Hogan leadership model, and I realized that as Ryan pointed out, all those years, what I'd written on one topic after another, trying to nailing down specific issues, but I never talked about personality in the whole as a as a in a broad context.
[5:13] SPEAKER_02: And that's that's what I wanted to do in the book, was start with chimpanzee politics, which are remarkably similar to Washington politics, and coming forward through individual personality and personality per se, and then personality and teams, and then personality, and then finally organizations.
[5:29] SPEAKER_02: So it's a it's a tour from it, goes from starts with chimpanzee politics and ends up with March and Simon and or organizational theory.
[5:38] SPEAKER_03: You know, RT, I want to go back to something.
[5:41] SPEAKER_03: Sorry, go ahead, RT.
[5:43] SPEAKER_02: Just showing personality is an integral part of all those discussions, even when it's not recognized as such.
[5:50] SPEAKER_03: You know, RT, I want to go back to one of the things you said there at the the outset of that, which is which is something that you know I also experienced as as a former professor was you know the textbooks are often these sort of you know collections of concepts, right?
[6:05] SPEAKER_03: So here's a bunch of concepts, here's a that are grouped together, but there is no sort of underlying theme, I think, in a lot of these cases.
[6:13] SPEAKER_03: I mean, why do you think that is that that so many uh textbooks for for under mostly targeted undergraduate students, or but even graduate student textbooks are oftentimes just sort of collections of of ideas or collections of this is research that's been done, but no real underlying theme or under underlying message there.
[6:33] SPEAKER_02: What's the underlying theme to Taylor Swift's body of work?
[6:38] SPEAKER_04: Oh, I've got to hear the answer to this one.
[6:41] SPEAKER_03: That's a good point, too.
[6:42] SPEAKER_02: The answer is that we live in a deeply anti-intellectual culture where people where ideas don't matter.
[6:47] SPEAKER_02: And in contrast with, for example, the Germans or the French or the Italians, America, this is actually documented.
[6:52] SPEAKER_02: A guy named Richard Hofstead wrote a book back in the 60s called Anti-Intellectualism in American Life, arguing that the culture itself is just hostile to ideas.
[7:01] SPEAKER_02: And I think that's the answer.
[7:03] SPEAKER_02: It's just a deeply anti-intelle intellectual culture, which we've been trying to fix.
[7:10] SPEAKER_04: Well, okay, RT.
[7:11] SPEAKER_04: I'm curious.
[7:12] SPEAKER_04: Uh, as I was putting this, you know, kind of these questions together for this episode.
[7:17] SPEAKER_04: I I think before I could even get into the subject matter so much, I was curious about the process.
[7:25] SPEAKER_04: So, how did this process of writing this book play out?
[7:28] SPEAKER_04: Uh, is it something you've been working on for a while, or did it happen more quickly?
[7:32] SPEAKER_04: I'm just I'm just curious, and I'm sure our listeners are as well, to get a peek behind the curtain.
[7:38] SPEAKER_02: Well, to slightly re repeat myself, when I started in this business in 1965, there was no such thing as personality.
[7:48] SPEAKER_02: Mainstream academic dogma, textbooks, what they tell you in graduate school.
[7:51] SPEAKER_02: There was no such thing as personality, personality didn't matter, there's no such thing as leadership, and and nobody cared.
[7:58] SPEAKER_02: And I spent a good bit of my career early on trying to demonstrate that personality is real, exists, and is consequential, that leadership is real and exists and is consequential, and that personality is associated with leadership.
[8:10] SPEAKER_02: All these were just tactical exercises, as it were.
[8:13] SPEAKER_02: Wendy said, write this book on the Hogan Hogan leadership perspective, and I thought, well, shit, here we go.
[8:21] SPEAKER_02: I just sat and thought and thought and thought and thought and said, What's what's how what's the overall context to think about this?
[8:27] SPEAKER_02: And it turns out that, for example, I'm a chimpanzee politics are very much like Washington politics.
[8:33] SPEAKER_02: There's an alpha male, there's some subsidies, there's politics, there's negotiating, there's favorcurring, there's debts paid off, there's revenge, there's backstabbing, and then bringing it on forward.
[8:45] SPEAKER_02: I wanted to put it in a complete total context.
[8:48] SPEAKER_02: So yeah, uh chimpanzee politics, uh, human prehistory, the rise of organizations, personality and leadership, and then finally, uh finally organizational theory, that's that chat chapter.
[9:02] SPEAKER_02: There's a chapter on organizational theory.
[9:04] SPEAKER_02: The problem with which is of course it's devoid of any ideas about personality.
[9:08] SPEAKER_02: And then finally, the last chapter on political leadership, which brings us all back to white white man.
[9:14] SPEAKER_02: Leadership is the most important force in human affairs, and personality is the key to understanding leadership.
[9:18] SPEAKER_02: So it makes personality the most important topic in human affairs.
[9:21] SPEAKER_02: Full stop.
[9:23] SPEAKER_02: Do you want to understand economics?
[9:24] SPEAKER_02: You understand organization, organizational factors, you need to understand people, what you understand human nature and what people are up to.
[9:31] SPEAKER_02: So that was I just sat there and tried to do it from a you know in an order, in an I'm really quite anal.
[9:39] SPEAKER_02: I wanted to do it in an orderly sequence.
[9:43] SPEAKER_02: One thing.
[9:45] SPEAKER_03: Sorry, RT, go ahead.
[9:46] SPEAKER_02: Yes, no, go ahead.
[9:47] SPEAKER_03: Well, I was gonna ask you a little bit about chimpanzee politics because I know I think there's a book with that title.
[9:52] SPEAKER_03: Yeah, there sure is.
[9:53] SPEAKER_02: Yes, you've talked about reading.
[9:55] SPEAKER_03: Yeah, well, well, can you can you, you know, for for our listeners, can you give a little bit more detail on what the what are what are the sort of the key concepts from chimpanzee politics?
[10:05] SPEAKER_02: There's an alpha male, there's some subordinate males that curry favor with them, and then they're out and then they're outcast males.
[10:13] SPEAKER_02: There's a there's uh there's a so there's a clear status hierarchy among males, and it's and it's defined by not just by who's biggest and strongest, but also by who has the most support.
[10:24] SPEAKER_02: Because when push, because if you're in charge, there'll always be somebody coming after you.
[10:29] SPEAKER_02: And the alpha male is the one that has the most support, and that includes the support of the women, the females, by the way.
[10:36] SPEAKER_02: To be the alpha male, you can't just beat up on people.
[10:38] SPEAKER_02: You have to have the physical support of the whole clan, the males and females.
[10:44] SPEAKER_02: And and then there's this there's a dominance hierarchy among the females as well, but people don't talk about that because it's hard to study.
[10:52] SPEAKER_02: And so there you are, you're in charge, you're the big dog to alpha male, and there are all sorts of perks.
[10:58] SPEAKER_02: The other chimpanzees have to kiss your ass, they'll lick your butt like literally, and then you get to have sex with anyone you want, and not just have sex with anyone you want anytime you want, but you get to do it in public.
[11:09] SPEAKER_02: And the subordinate males have to have sex in the bushes secretly, because the alpha won't will interrupt them.
[11:17] SPEAKER_02: And there's this constant and then there's this constant competition for for that for that role.
[11:24] SPEAKER_02: If you're the alpha male, you you will have your competitors.
[11:27] SPEAKER_02: And when when and when it's when this when the revolt, the revolution is successful, there's a period of real chaos as the new alpha has to establish his right to rule.
[11:41] SPEAKER_02: This is just like Washington, D.C.
[11:43] SPEAKER_02: It's it's absolutely creepy the the parallels between American politics you know political political life and life.
[11:51] SPEAKER_02: Chimpanzee by it's a terrific book.
[11:54] SPEAKER_02: I recommend everybody read it.
[11:55] SPEAKER_02: It's just knock your socks off.
[11:58] SPEAKER_02: It's quite clear that we're just herous chimpanzees.
[12:04] SPEAKER_03: I do wonder um you know, about uh, you know, the the sort of the way these these concepts play out in sort of daily daily life today, right?
[12:16] SPEAKER_03: I think the the main theme being there that there's always this sort of competition for the top, but you just mentioned something there about uh this period of chaos when that sort of revolution hits.
[12:28] SPEAKER_03: And it occurred to me when you were saying that, I haven't thought about this before, but is one of the sort of factors that you know you might ask yourself, why aren't there revolutions all the time?
[12:38] SPEAKER_03: Is it because it's some people would just prefer to deal with uh a bad leader uh or or a bad um uh a bad president, a bad whatever, as opposed to having this period of chaos?
[12:53] SPEAKER_03: Is that is that um does that does that sort of play into the individual psychology or the psychology of the group or the psychology of organization?
[13:00] SPEAKER_03: Um considering revolution.
[13:04] SPEAKER_02: The devil you know is better than the devil you don't know.
[13:07] SPEAKER_02: Uh changing full stop, full barrage, full end of chapter, there's a second part to this chimpanzee politics I've I I neglected to mention, which is chimpanzees are group living animals.
[13:19] SPEAKER_02: They have to live their life inside that group, and if if the males, if the males venture outside the group, they'll be killed.
[13:25] SPEAKER_02: So the that the group is not only where you exercise your status needs, it's also keeps you alive.
[13:33] SPEAKER_02: That is to say, people chimpanzees need and depend on their groups for for individual survival.
[13:39] SPEAKER_02: Individual chimpanzees won't make it through the night.
[13:44] SPEAKER_04: Well, RT, I'm gonna definitely have to read that book um because this is fascinating.
[13:48] SPEAKER_04: And we will get to a little bit more on politics a little bit later here in this episode.
[13:54] SPEAKER_04: But first, I want to I want to get to this, what I would consider a provocative title.
[14:00] SPEAKER_04: Um, you know, I I think even though it's so similar to uh personality and the fate of organizations, which I also would would think I've I've probably seen that title enough now that maybe it's not as provocative to me anymore.
[14:13] SPEAKER_04: But in in retrospect, if you look back whenever it came out, I'm sure it was.
[14:17] SPEAKER_04: But now you you insert this part, it it it it suggests that organizations have some kind of hidden psychological reality behind what we think we know about them.
[14:29] SPEAKER_04: So I'm curious exactly what do you mean by the secret life of organizations?
[14:34] SPEAKER_02: Well, I think that I mean, what Freud, Nietzsche, Karl Marx all talked about was the degree to which people deceive themselves about what's what's what they're actually up to.
[14:44] SPEAKER_02: I think there's also a sort of myths.
[14:48] SPEAKER_02: I think a good bit of what goes on in organizations is completely out of people's consciousness.
[14:53] SPEAKER_02: The principal dynamic in every organization is the individual search for power, and nobody's allowed to talk about that.
[14:58] SPEAKER_02: Listen to these people on these centers on TV being interviewed, they all want to be present, not one of them will admit it or talk, even talk about it.
[15:05] SPEAKER_02: They also wink wink, you know, you're not really running, are you?
[15:08] SPEAKER_02: So, I mean, what's going on in every organization is what's going on in chimpanzee troop.
[15:13] SPEAKER_02: People negoti maneuvering and negotiating to take charge.
[15:18] SPEAKER_02: You're not allowed to talk about that.
[15:20] SPEAKER_02: And I think that's that's yeah, so who wants to be leader?
[15:25] SPEAKER_02: Who wants to be leader?
[15:26] SPEAKER_02: Well, I wouldn't uh ask Ryan about academic politics.
[15:29] SPEAKER_02: Nobody wants to be chair of the department, right?
[15:31] SPEAKER_02: Ryan?
[15:32] SPEAKER_03: Right, right.
[15:33] SPEAKER_02: Except they all would kill the for the job.
[15:35] SPEAKER_03: Right.
[15:35] SPEAKER_03: The yeah, they all want to be in charge, but the but they won't tell you that they that they want to be in charge.
[15:42] SPEAKER_02: So and then what you got so you have multiple individual agendas at play in the organization.
[15:50] SPEAKER_02: You're not supposed to talk about.
[15:51] SPEAKER_02: We're all great guys here, we all get along great.
[15:54] SPEAKER_02: We have a great bullshit.
[15:56] SPEAKER_02: Everybody has their own little selfish agenda, they're just but they're not willing to talk about it.
[16:01] SPEAKER_02: And and the major task of leadership, I think, the biggest single task of leadership is is to try to get people to all to align their personal interests with the interests of the group because and that's a real challenge because they have their because they're in people are in it's it people are complicated, you know.
[16:20] SPEAKER_02: I mean they need their groups, but they're pr but they're selfish animals, and so how do you reconcile the need to be part of a group with with selfish impulses?
[16:28] SPEAKER_02: That's that's I think the big big part of the secret life organizations.
[16:35] SPEAKER_02: I remember when I was making my way up the social status chain and talking to some rich people in Baltimore, and I and I said I described myself as as ambitious.
[16:44] SPEAKER_02: I said, I'm ambitious, I want to get ahead.
[16:47] SPEAKER_02: And they they recoiled in horror.
[16:49] SPEAKER_02: How dare you say that?
[16:51] SPEAKER_02: Well, I learned not to say that anymore.
[16:55] SPEAKER_02: That's that's it, right?
[16:57] SPEAKER_02: What we're up to is what we're up to what we're really up to is a secret.
[17:02] SPEAKER_03: Yeah, RT, I wonder to what extent uh it's a secret even to the people who are engaging in it.
[17:09] SPEAKER_03: Or do you you know do you really feel like that?
[17:12] SPEAKER_02: Yeah, absolutely.
[17:15] SPEAKER_02: There there are there are multiple secrets.
[17:18] SPEAKER_02: Another just the value structure of the organization, people are will be operating according to a set of values that are clearly inarticulate.
[17:26] SPEAKER_02: You know, the simple rule is if the organization wins, everybody wins.
[17:31] SPEAKER_02: But if you win, the organization can very well lose.
[17:34] SPEAKER_02: It's more important for the organization.
[17:35] SPEAKER_02: If your organization wins, you everybody wins.
[17:38] SPEAKER_02: If the organization loses, everybody fails.
[17:40] SPEAKER_02: But if you win, what's good for you may or may not be good for the organization.
[17:44] SPEAKER_02: What's good for good for the organization is always good for you.
[17:48] SPEAKER_02: And that's another one of those unconscious truths that people don't like to talk about.
[17:55] SPEAKER_03: Art, this discussion brings to mind something that uh, you know, you and I, or I think we've talked about in the past, which is this concept by Richard Dawkins, the selfish gene.
[18:07] SPEAKER_03: And to some extent, right, it sounds like okay, well, the individuals are selfish because their genes may be right.
[18:12] SPEAKER_03: But but you also talk about group and group living.
[18:15] SPEAKER_03: And how how do these two things either coincide or conflict with each other?
[18:21] SPEAKER_02: Well, I think people are inherently both selfish and pro-social, they they have selfish biologically, they're programmed to proceed to proceed to pursue their own selfish interests.
[18:33] SPEAKER_02: Biologically, they they absolutely need to be a member of a group.
[18:37] SPEAKER_02: And so it's there's a built-in tension associated with life.
[18:42] SPEAKER_02: You have to live in an organization, but you have to look out for yourself.
[18:46] SPEAKER_02: And aligning those is a very complicated, complicated task.
[18:50] SPEAKER_02: This is this is one of the really interesting perpetual themes in literature, you know, self-sacrifice versus you know self-promotion.
[18:58] SPEAKER_02: This is fascinating stuff.
[19:00] SPEAKER_02: I mean, it's what philosophy is all about.
[19:03] SPEAKER_04: Well, RT, in the first chapter, you talk about a widespread cultural revolt against authority in the 1960s, which spawned Walter Michel's theory that personality doesn't exist.
[19:16] SPEAKER_04: So, first, what do you think led him to that conclusion?
[19:20] SPEAKER_04: And second, had this revolution or had that not occurred, you know, the revolution then as a resulting factor of this um theory on personality that doesn't exist, where do you think the field of personality psychology would be to today if that had not occurred?
[19:37] SPEAKER_02: Yeah, well, that's this is really this is a really interesting topic.
[19:41] SPEAKER_02: It's worth a you know a long treatment, but I would say, first of all, the 60s really were a period of revolt.
[19:47] SPEAKER_02: I I was in graduate school in Berkeley during the 60s, and it was it was just madness.
[19:53] SPEAKER_02: It was just adolescent revolt.
[19:54] SPEAKER_02: But American psychology from the 19th century forward was dominated by behaviorism.
[20:00] SPEAKER_02: Principal claim of behaviorism is that people do what follows the reinforcements that are in situations.
[20:05] SPEAKER_02: That's the major intellectual claim of social psychology is people do what circumstances dictate.
[20:12] SPEAKER_02: And and the the personality and social psychology were one group.
[20:18] SPEAKER_02: Social psychologists were like 90% of the social of that of that group.
[20:22] SPEAKER_02: They and they control the journals and funding mechanisms, and they control the industry.
[20:27] SPEAKER_02: And they just loved hearing a personality psychologist say that there's no such thing as personality.
[20:33] SPEAKER_02: It's just like Trump's MAGA people like hearing that we shouldn't have any immigrants.
[20:38] SPEAKER_02: The social psychologists wanted loved hearing that there was no such thing as personality.
[20:43] SPEAKER_02: So it was it was a political move, it wasn't an intellectual, it wasn't an empirical.
[20:47] SPEAKER_02: Michelle's book is poorly written and no evidence.
[20:51] SPEAKER_02: There's no data to support his point of view, but it was a political argument, and it and it just caught onto the worst elements of personality social psychology, uh, the discipline of personality social psychology, the same way that Trump's arguments caught onto the worst elements of American society.
[21:04] SPEAKER_02: And boom, and away he went.
[21:07] SPEAKER_02: And uh and what happened, the the the the reply to to Michelle was the five-factor model, uh, which is a replicable, statistically defensible, un incomprehensible view of personality.
[21:25] SPEAKER_02: It's also dumb as shit, but in the same way, you know, I mean there's some logic to what I mean, people you do need to be able to protect your borders.
[21:33] SPEAKER_02: Trump's right about that.
[21:35] SPEAKER_02: And the and uh I think that the the the the the the answer to Michelle has been the five factor model, and I think that's been equally as as damaging, uh constraining, blinkering, uh distorting as as as his situation isn't.
[21:56] SPEAKER_02: We well we're we're the outliers in this business.
[21:59] SPEAKER_02: We're We're not the main, we are by no means the mainstream.
[22:02] SPEAKER_02: We are serious.
[22:05] SPEAKER_02: We're like the subversions inside society.
[22:09] SPEAKER_02: We're like the people that won't think we should get rid of tariffs.
[22:14] SPEAKER_02: Sorry.
[22:15] SPEAKER_03: That's okay.
[22:16] SPEAKER_03: So if this hadn't uh if if Michelle's book or this sort of critique on personality psychology had not occurred, do you think personality psychology would be in a stronger position today, a weaker position today?
[22:29] SPEAKER_03: Or what do you think would have been different?
[22:35] SPEAKER_02: That's a really interesting question.
[22:37] SPEAKER_02: I mean, there was a sense in which I thought it was cathartic.
[22:40] SPEAKER_02: It did force them to get organized.
[22:43] SPEAKER_02: Prior to the five-factor model, there was like 350 different published personality scales.
[22:48] SPEAKER_02: And you said, and you from which that mass of journal articles with different personality measures, you couldn't make any concludes, you couldn't draw any conclusions at all.
[22:56] SPEAKER_02: With the development of the five-factor model, it'll it allowed proper taxonomy allowed data to accumulate across studies, and boom.
[23:04] SPEAKER_02: So I guess net is a win.
[23:08] SPEAKER_02: Well, RT, I'm sorry.
[23:09] SPEAKER_02: The five-factor model is is the is the is the organized corporate response to Michelle.
[23:15] SPEAKER_02: I think it's it has its limitations, but it definitely put personality back on the map.
[23:21] SPEAKER_04: Well, R.T.
[23:22] SPEAKER_04: It occurred to me.
[23:23] SPEAKER_04: I mean, you you mentioned Michelle maybe not being all that smart.
[23:28] SPEAKER_02: He wasn't.
[23:29] SPEAKER_04: He's an art history major, he's an undergraduate.
[23:31] SPEAKER_04: Well, I mean, if you if you become a personality psychologist and you have this bold idea that personality doesn't exist, that just tells you how not smart he was because he's essentially putting himself out of a job.
[23:45] SPEAKER_04: I don't know why.
[23:46] SPEAKER_04: It's like, why would we pay you if what you do for a living doesn't exist?
[23:50] SPEAKER_02: It's an old strategy in academia.
[23:53] SPEAKER_02: Say something outrageous, attract a lot of attention, get tenure at hard at Stanford, and then spend the rest of your career gradually backing down.
[24:01] SPEAKER_02: And each step as you back down, it draws excited attention.
[24:04] SPEAKER_02: Look, look, he's changed his mind on this, let's keep going.
[24:06] SPEAKER_02: So it was it was it's an articulated strategy for career success in academia.
[24:12] SPEAKER_02: Say something outrageous and then spend then gradually back down.
[24:17] SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it can also be a powerful persuasion technique.
[24:29] SPEAKER_02: It's a well-established pattern for success.
[24:32] SPEAKER_03: Yeah, but but I think it's also a powerful persuasion technique, right?
[24:36] SPEAKER_03: To say, yes, you know, uh, I'm I'm from this group, and this group is wrong about this thing, right?
[24:44] SPEAKER_03: Um, versus, right, if the critique had come from somebody who is considered outside the group, uh, it would have had a different effect, and and and it wouldn't have been uh it had more political influence uh in in this sense as well.
[25:03] SPEAKER_02: I knew Michelle, I met him several times.
[25:06] SPEAKER_02: He was not a kind of guy that we would I didn't like him at all.
[25:12] SPEAKER_02: I thought he was really superficial, really silly, and really ambitious, and not very smart, with no with no talent for research.
[25:20] SPEAKER_02: Other than that, he was a hell of a guy.
[25:23] SPEAKER_04: Well, it also just kind of I think highlights the the major negative side, the dark side, which you know, especially those moving that moving again against cluster.
[25:34] SPEAKER_04: It sounds like he probably embodied that quite a bit.
[25:37] SPEAKER_04: Um and you know, this is what we got as a result.
[25:41] SPEAKER_04: But you know, RT, one thing I found interesting in the book was you you pointed out that the first known guide to running an organization was written in 2700 BC by an Egyptian city manager named Tahotep.
[25:59] SPEAKER_04: Can you give us a little history lesson on that?
[26:01] SPEAKER_04: Because that I I saw that and I was I I just had to ask.
[26:07] SPEAKER_02: Well, uh actually it's just a factoid, but the context for me is people have been living in settled communities for 7,000 years.
[26:20] SPEAKER_02: Prior to him writing that book.
[26:21] SPEAKER_02: So there were 7,000 years of of collective group, you know, civilizations and societies and walled forts and so forth.
[26:30] SPEAKER_02: And they they might by I mean 7,000 years before he wrote his book, people have been living in groups.
[26:36] SPEAKER_02: So I think he was just reflecting on the collectivism, 7,000 years of collective of social living.
[26:44] SPEAKER_03: Well, but but I do think that there probably is something, you know, and I and I don't I won't get the because these timelines move quite a bit, but for sure by 3,000 BC we we you know many there were there were clearly established settlements by settlements.
[27:02] SPEAKER_02: I mean I think there were trade routes and money, weren't there?
[27:06] SPEAKER_03: Yeah, for sure, for sure by then, right?
[27:09] SPEAKER_03: So um and and I mean I I don't know that we know exactly like when you can say, well, this was the sort of first settlement.
[27:18] SPEAKER_03: I mean, there's been different guesses and these things have changed over time, but um, you know, the I the idea being that that those settlement sort of societies were different from the sort of nomadic kind of societies.
[27:33] SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and and to me, maybe something, you know, this this this book speaks to something about that, about the differences between living in a settled sort of community versus in a nomadic one.
[27:45] SPEAKER_02: Well, the I mean one of the themes I tried to make in the book was that what's the line leadership is an ancient intuition, the people know it when they see it.
[27:57] SPEAKER_02: But and the models that we have of leadership are all folks func are all designed to explain corporate living, living living in but but for 10,000 years, nomads had as every bit of nomadic societies where every bit is successful, in fact, preyed upon and kicked the ass and kicked the ass of settled groups.
[28:21] SPEAKER_02: So our models of leadership are designed to explain leadership in in settled groups as opposed to nomadic societies.
[28:28] SPEAKER_02: And and what you find in nomadics, as I understand my reading of literature, is that nomadic leadership looks more like the kind of leadership I would endorse, as opposed to what that Egyptian city manager talked about.
[28:40] SPEAKER_02: That is to say, I would say models of contemporary models of leadership are all models of corporate leadership, how to f how to get by at IBM.
[28:48] SPEAKER_02: But I and then you get a particular hierarchical, you know what you get in the literature, but but it but pirates, nomadic groups, groups that are free to live free, they choose an entire they choose leadership by consensus, they get the most talented and most capable person to be in charge.
[29:08] SPEAKER_02: And you get so you get a different model of leadership altogether.
[29:13] SPEAKER_03: Well, our RT, I and maybe we'll you will talk about this in the next question here, but I think that speaks to perhaps one of the most important tensions that I know is something you've identified throughout your career.
[29:26] SPEAKER_03: Um, and I think that theme runs through a lot of this discussion here, which is you know, tying back even into the chimpanzee politics talk, which is that there's this incredible tension between getting to the top of an organization and running an organization effectively.
[29:41] SPEAKER_03: And that the idea, the concept here is that people are very motivated to get to the top of the organization for their individual selfish sort of goals, but that doesn't necessarily benefit uh the the entirety of the organization.
[29:54] SPEAKER_03: And this this tension, I guess, is it just sort of a built-in tension in human nature?
[29:59] SPEAKER_03: Because, you know, at least you've been talking about it for quite some time.
[30:04] SPEAKER_03: There doesn't seem to be any uh it doesn't seem to be a lot of progress towards fixing it.
[30:10] SPEAKER_02: I don't think there can be.
[30:11] SPEAKER_02: I think it's just an inherent tension in the nature of things.
[30:15] SPEAKER_02: You need your groups to survive, but you need individual success within the group to s for your own personal line to survive.
[30:21] SPEAKER_02: It's just it's it's an inherent ambiguity of existence, which I find quite interesting, actually.
[30:29] SPEAKER_04: Well, it is interesting.
[30:30] SPEAKER_04: It's unfortunate that we're not going to be able to do anything about it, but I also think you make a really good point in saying that because you're you're probably right.
[30:38] SPEAKER_04: Um well, let's get to this next question that Ryan referenced earlier.
[30:42] SPEAKER_04: Because in the book, you outlined six universal themes that, although often unnoticed, are present in every organization.
[30:51] SPEAKER_04: Would you mind giving us an overview of these themes without spoiling too much for the people who are going to buy the book?
[30:58] SPEAKER_02: Well, there's actually a backstory.
[31:01] SPEAKER_02: So when I decided I was going to be a the chair of an IO department, uh industrial psychology is mostly just selection, motivation, employee relations.
[31:10] SPEAKER_02: But there's an O in order, and that's just called organizational theory.
[31:15] SPEAKER_02: So I spent a couple of years reading organizational theory or trying to understand organizational, trying to get a get a handle on organizational theory.
[31:24] SPEAKER_02: What I concluded was if there isn't any, uh no one, probably Peter Druck is closest to anybody.
[31:31] SPEAKER_02: So I said uh so I said so these six themes are my attempt to formulate a theory of organizations.
[31:45] SPEAKER_02: It's not a uh not an algorithmic exercise, not it's not like geometry with axioms or postulates.
[31:50] SPEAKER_02: I just these these are six generalizations that together define how the organizations function.
[31:57] SPEAKER_02: So the the first question is who shall rule?
[32:01] SPEAKER_02: And that that's the fundamental, as my really smart political science friend John Hopkins used to say, the the fundamental question in human affairs is who shall rule.
[32:10] SPEAKER_02: That's what it's all about.
[32:11] SPEAKER_02: Who's gonna get who's gonna be up, who's gonna be down, who's gonna be in, who's gonna be out.
[32:16] SPEAKER_02: So that's that's so that so the first rule of organizations is that the the principal dynamic is then is the individual search for power.
[32:25] SPEAKER_02: A second generalization is quite true, and no one wants to talk about it, is that all organizations are pyramid schemes.
[32:31] SPEAKER_02: Ryan Sherman's favorite example is the Catholic Church.
[32:35] SPEAKER_02: It's just you know, these people passing resources up until they finally arrive at the Vatican Bank.
[32:41] SPEAKER_02: All organizations are pyramid schemes.
[32:44] SPEAKER_02: I'm I'm deeply conscious of that at Hogan Assessments because when did I make a fair amount of money and I uh off of you know other people and try to distribute the rewards equitably because but all organizations are pyramid schemes, including the Girl Scouts, Marcher Dimes, American Cancer Society, and then you might as well just get over it because that's that's the case.
[33:07] SPEAKER_02: U.S.
[33:08] SPEAKER_02: government, what's the point of being a top?
[33:09] SPEAKER_02: What do they say when they get elected?
[33:11] SPEAKER_02: What's what do they say when they get elected in Chicago politics?
[33:14] SPEAKER_02: Where's mine?
[33:16] SPEAKER_02: Okay, so first rule is who should rule, second is all organizations' pyramid schemes.
[33:21] SPEAKER_02: Third one is my favorite, it's it's Hogan's first law of nominological non-biodegradability, which is that to run an organization you have to have rules.
[33:30] SPEAKER_02: And you have to have rules because they're malefactors.
[33:33] SPEAKER_02: So you put rules in place to keep bad guys under control.
[33:37] SPEAKER_02: But rules are non-degrad non-biodegradable.
[33:40] SPEAKER_02: So over time, in a mature organization, you'll have so many rules you can't get anything done.
[33:45] SPEAKER_02: And if you want to get ahead, you're gonna have the only way to get ahead in a mature organization is to break a rule.
[33:50] SPEAKER_02: And if you break a rule, you then you then you give your your your critics and your competitors a leg up because nah you broke a rule, and that's that's part of what Trump's talking about when he says they you know warfare, legal warfare.
[34:05] SPEAKER_02: So but over time, rules build up until the until the organization becomes non-functional, and you have to periodically just flush rules.
[34:14] SPEAKER_02: And no one does that, by the way.
[34:16] SPEAKER_02: They because the rules are always useful for picking on your enemies.
[34:20] SPEAKER_02: So who should rule, pyramid schemes, piling up with the clogging of arteries, rules, clogging of the arteries by rules.
[34:29] SPEAKER_02: Fourth point is really important if you're in charge.
[34:32] SPEAKER_02: Factions always arise.
[34:34] SPEAKER_02: It's just chimpanzee politics all over again.
[34:36] SPEAKER_02: Factions always arrive, and a fundamental task of leadership is to try to keep the factions, try what you do.
[34:43] SPEAKER_02: I mean, that's the problem with the Democratic Party, is too many too many factions, but factions always arise.
[34:47] SPEAKER_02: There's just absolutely unavoidable.
[34:50] SPEAKER_02: Big task of leadership is to try to keep the factions under control.
[34:54] SPEAKER_02: I don't know, you can't make them go away, but you can try.
[34:56] SPEAKER_02: That's what's wrong with German politics, that's what's wrong with French politics, factions.
[35:01] SPEAKER_02: Fifth point, uh fifth point, people don't like to talk about this, by the way.
[35:05] SPEAKER_02: Who wants to admit that the post office is a pyramid scheme, right?
[35:09] SPEAKER_02: Who wants to admit the rule uh fifth point is in every society, from social living society, from from these plankton that live out in the ocean to humans, free riders always emerge.
[35:25] SPEAKER_02: Free riders are individuals who take advantage of the take advantage of the benefits of group living and contribute nothing back.
[35:34] SPEAKER_02: And they just emerge and and and at some point they and they grow and until you reach the tipping point and they bring things down.
[35:43] SPEAKER_02: In my view, politicians are the free riders of human society.
[35:47] SPEAKER_02: They they take I mean they have real perks.
[35:50] SPEAKER_02: And they and with their net contributions, but even if you next time you're running your your business, take a look around, you'd be surprised how many people are not doing anything.
[36:00] SPEAKER_02: Uh I've worked in various organizations in my life, and the number universities are the worst.
[36:08] SPEAKER_02: They have all these deans who spend their time going to meetings and they don't do a damn thing, they don't teach, they don't raise money, you know.
[36:14] SPEAKER_02: Anyway, so the fifth point is that free writers always emerge.
[36:18] SPEAKER_02: And then the last one, I love this.
[36:20] SPEAKER_02: This is the Sar and March, two economists, sociologists, their garbage can model of organizations, which is that it's kind of like the repository of the rules.
[36:34] SPEAKER_02: Managers make decisions, put policies in place, put procedures in place, and then the managers move on.
[36:40] SPEAKER_02: And the policies and procedures they put in place or design to solve problems that they face.
[36:46] SPEAKER_02: They then they leave the organization, but the policies and procedures are still in place, and the problems change.
[36:51] SPEAKER_02: And so you get you get this accumulation of policies and procedures that are completely dysfunctional because they were made by people early early on who were just trying to get ahead.
[37:01] SPEAKER_02: You know, uh secret life organizations, people this these things are going on and nobody's aware of them, or at least they're not paying attention to them.
[37:10] SPEAKER_02: So and I would say then, so so those six themes are uh represent my attempt at doing putting together theory of organization or theory of organizations.
[37:20] SPEAKER_02: But I should do one last point about this.
[37:23] SPEAKER_02: That whole literature, the whole vast literature on organizational theory, it all ignores effectiveness.
[37:30] SPEAKER_02: No one talks about individual differences, no individual competition between organizations, it's always what's going on within the organization.
[37:36] SPEAKER_02: But you know, clearly some organizations are better run than others, and and that's not a topic for organizational the academic body of knowledge called organization theory does not deal with organizational effectiveness, and that's a huge, intolerable, inexcusable uh gap in in intellectual inquiry.
[38:00] SPEAKER_02: And that's what leadership is all about, to make organization effective.
[38:04] SPEAKER_03: Yeah, our T and thinking about these six, it yeah, it reminded me of Max Weber's sort of, you know, uh I forget what they're called, I don't know, iron laws of organizational bureaucracy.
[38:16] SPEAKER_03: Iron law of bureaucracy.
[38:17] SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
[38:18] SPEAKER_03: So but I mean uh you know I I could almost argue that these six are sort of these are six laws of organizations, that when you have organizations, this these processes play out in in every organization.
[38:33] SPEAKER_03: Would you say that's true?
[38:35] SPEAKER_02: I was trying to say.
[38:36] SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[38:38] SPEAKER_03: Now, when I think about the garbage can model, if I understand right the the analogy, if I make sure I understand the analogy of the garbage can, is that you throw things into the garbage can and nobody ever cleans it out.
[38:49] SPEAKER_03: It just sort of accumulates in the garbage can.
[38:52] SPEAKER_04: Exactly.
[38:52] SPEAKER_04: Before we get to my last question, you know, I can't help but ask about the section in the book.
[38:57] SPEAKER_04: And I mentioned this earlier, uh, that we were going to address this a little later, but here we are.
[39:02] SPEAKER_04: I could I couldn't help but ask about the section of the book on political leadership.
[39:08] SPEAKER_04: So let's do a little let's do a little dive in on that.
[39:11] SPEAKER_04: What uh what do you have to say about about uh you know, without again, without spoiling too much, about your section on political leadership?
[39:21] SPEAKER_02: Well, back in the day when I used to teach personality psychology, I used to teach Freud.
[39:28] SPEAKER_02: And Freud's best book, the book the book that he liked best, the one he said was the was his most important work, is called Toteman Taboo, which he published in like 1913.
[39:39] SPEAKER_02: Though then he wrote a uh and it was widely critical, it was furiously rebutted, people really hated it.
[39:48] SPEAKER_02: And then he and he wrote a book uh called Civilization's discontents in the 1920s, and the last thing he wrote before he died was a book called Moses and Monotheism.
[39:57] SPEAKER_02: In all three books he talks about the same theme, which is corrupt leadership.
[40:02] SPEAKER_02: And I just this is my tribute to Freud.
[40:06] SPEAKER_02: Uh I think that leadership political leaders are inherently venal, and the data is supported.
[40:16] SPEAKER_02: To put so on the one hand, I just don't like politicians because I don't trust them.
[40:21] SPEAKER_02: But it it it dramatizes on a giant sort of public social or social wide, social society-wide scale, the importance of the distinction between emergent and effective leadership.
[40:32] SPEAKER_02: Emergent leaders are the ones who rise fast and get a lot of attention.
[40:35] SPEAKER_02: Effective leaders are the ones who actually make the organization better.
[40:40] SPEAKER_02: And the bad news is that it's like uh what's Grisham's law, right?
[40:47] SPEAKER_02: The bad money replaces good.
[40:50] SPEAKER_02: Well, bad leadership always replaces good.
[40:52] SPEAKER_02: So I think political leadership is on the one hand, Freud was right in his analysis of political leadership.
[40:59] SPEAKER_02: He Freud, by the way, only did psychiatry to make a living.
[41:03] SPEAKER_02: He spent his evening, he was a really hard-working guy.
[41:05] SPEAKER_02: He worked all day and he then he wrote from eight until midnight every night.
[41:09] SPEAKER_02: What he worked, what he was really interested in was politics.
[41:11] SPEAKER_02: He wrote a famous biography on what Woodrow Wilson's making this, using Toteman taboos as his launching back.
[41:18] SPEAKER_02: So Freud, Freud's main interest was political leadership, and that chapter was sort of my tribute to Freud.
[41:25] SPEAKER_02: And saying that he was right in more modern terms, or in terms of this concept of fearless dominance is wonderful.
[41:37] SPEAKER_02: Does that make any sense?
[41:39] SPEAKER_03: Well well, I mean, one of the things that makes sense to me, RT, is the I mean, the the connection that I see between this book and Toteman Tabu is essentially that individual some I mean, so I mean Toteman Tabu goes into a lot of esoteric topics, including things about incest and all that kind of stuff.
[41:56] SPEAKER_03: But one of the Yeah, that's right.
[41:59] SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
[42:00] SPEAKER_03: But I think the key underlying theme, which is that individual psychology plays a role in shaping culture, plays a role in shaping the kinds of institutions that we have today, the institutions that we live in, are all all go are rooted in our evolutionary history, our history as as uh individuals and living in nomadic tribes and early societies that have created uh the the humankind that we see today.
[42:31] SPEAKER_03: And those processes are still playing out in the organizations that we live in today.
[42:37] SPEAKER_03: Would you say that's a fair link between your book and and totem and taboo?
[42:42] SPEAKER_02: I do, and I think you you you you you express it this is clearly very quite clearly, and I admire you for doing so.
[42:51] SPEAKER_03: Well, maybe we should put that in the preface.
[42:54] SPEAKER_02: Okay.
[42:57] SPEAKER_04: A little late now, right?
[42:59] SPEAKER_04: Well, uh RT, this has been a great conversation, but I do have one last question before we we bring this conversation in for a landing.
[43:08] SPEAKER_04: So this is a question that only you can truly answer.
[43:12] SPEAKER_04: So looking across all the organizations you've observed, what separates the leaders who lead behind healthy, sustainable institutions from those who maybe achieve short-term success but ultimately damage the organization?
[43:26] SPEAKER_02: Well, that is the bottom line question in this whole conversation, right?
[43:30] SPEAKER_04: I think so.
[43:31] SPEAKER_04: That's why I saved the I tried to save the best for last, just for you.
[43:35] SPEAKER_02: I think there are I I think there are five characteristics, and I think the data support these five characteristics.
[43:42] SPEAKER_02: I think the first thing is is humility.
[43:45] SPEAKER_02: Uh the thing that everyone said about Grant, Grant was one of the three greatest generals in the history of the world.
[43:52] SPEAKER_02: He was completely humble.
[43:54] SPEAKER_02: Eisenhower is quite humble.
[43:56] SPEAKER_02: The point about humility is you can admit when you're wrong and you can learn from.
[44:00] SPEAKER_02: Other people.
[44:01] SPEAKER_02: So humility defined as being willing to admit your mistakes and and willing to listen to advice.
[44:09] SPEAKER_02: Rationality, paying attention to data, and listening to experts.
[44:14] SPEAKER_02: Experts are repositories of data.
[44:16] SPEAKER_02: They're the second best way of getting or the maybe the quickest way to get the data is so humility, rationality is defined in terms of willingness to valuing expertise, valuing which we don't have in the Trump administration, right?
[44:31] SPEAKER_02: The third thing is is innovation.
[44:33] SPEAKER_02: That that goes back to biology.
[44:35] SPEAKER_02: The rule for fundamental rule of biology is adapt, migrate, or die.
[44:41] SPEAKER_02: Innovation is absolutely essential.
[44:42] SPEAKER_02: You've got to be constantly innovating or else you're toast.
[44:45] SPEAKER_02: So humility, rationality, innovation.
[44:49] SPEAKER_02: I just love this one.
[44:51] SPEAKER_02: This is comes from this comes from Napoleon.
[44:54] SPEAKER_02: Minimize hierarchy.
[44:56] SPEAKER_02: I understand that there's real talent further down in the organization, you need to have access to it.
[45:02] SPEAKER_02: Napoleon was really good at that.
[45:05] SPEAKER_02: Minimizing hierarchy.
[45:19] SPEAKER_02: Honestly, God, this is not, it's crazy.
[45:24] SPEAKER_02: It's wanting to win.
[45:25] SPEAKER_02: And it's amazing to me how academic psychology ignores that.
[45:30] SPEAKER_02: The term and I can I mean when Warrior and I have written several papers on this.
[45:39] SPEAKER_02: Ambition is not part of the lexicon of personality psychology.
[45:42] SPEAKER_02: How can that possibly be?
[45:44] SPEAKER_02: It's so humility, you know, willingness to listen and to learn, uh, rationality, valuing expertise, innovation, constantly trying to improve.
[45:56] SPEAKER_02: Well, it's Kaizen, right?
[45:57] SPEAKER_02: Kaizen and then uh minimize minimizing hierarchy.
[46:01] SPEAKER_02: I think it's so important to be open to the ideas of talented junior people.
[46:06] SPEAKER_02: And then finally wanting to win, wanting to be the best.
[46:10] SPEAKER_02: Ask Ferrari.
[46:11] SPEAKER_02: If you can't win your former one team, you get your asses out of there.
[46:15] SPEAKER_02: Ask, I mean, what's wrong with the New York Giants?
[46:17] SPEAKER_02: They don't want to win.
[46:20] SPEAKER_02: So those are the and those are the I love that the I didn't think much of Reagan when he was president.
[46:26] SPEAKER_02: I thought he was a dumb butt.
[46:28] SPEAKER_02: But I loved his response.
[46:31] SPEAKER_02: He won my heart with the response.
[46:33] SPEAKER_02: They said, What's your what's your foreign policy with regard to what is your foreign policy with regard to the Russians?
[46:37] SPEAKER_02: And he said, simple.
[46:38] SPEAKER_02: We win, they lose.
[46:42] SPEAKER_02: How's that?
[46:45] SPEAKER_02: I love it.
[46:46] SPEAKER_03: Well, well, in thinking about this this comment about you know wanting to win, I mean, it seems like it would be inherent that uh people at the tops of organizations have to be that would that's what they would be interested in.
[46:58] SPEAKER_03: But we spent the last several years here at Hogan working with a number of uh high-level sports franchises, some of whom really do want to win, and some of whom have been very successful and then have won a lot.
[47:11] SPEAKER_03: But a shocking number of organizations that we worked with, and you would think this is competitive sports, right?
[47:17] SPEAKER_03: That that's what it's all about.
[47:19] SPEAKER_03: It would be all about winning.
[47:20] SPEAKER_03: A shocking number of them don't really seem very interested in winning, actually, when we talk with them.
[47:26] SPEAKER_04: Gary Jones?
[47:27] SPEAKER_03: Yeah, they seem much more interested in the lifestyle, the the fame, the notoriety that comes with it rather than actually winning.
[47:38] SPEAKER_02: There's this great Robert Redford movie called The Candidate.
[47:42] SPEAKER_02: The last it's about recruiting this guy from a town and getting him to run.
[47:46] SPEAKER_02: I think it's for senator.
[47:47] SPEAKER_02: And in the last scene of the movie, he's a long struggle, finally gets selected.
[47:51] SPEAKER_02: In the last scene of the movie, he's in his office with his guys, and he said, We've won, and we're I'm now a senator.
[47:58] SPEAKER_02: Now what do we do?
[48:00] SPEAKER_02: It just hangs there in the air like a big fart.
[48:03] SPEAKER_02: It's just amazing.
[48:05] SPEAKER_04: You know, RT, I'm sorry, I this is kind of a sidebar, but you know, based on Ryan bringing up the sports thing, I gotta get my reference in.
[48:12] SPEAKER_04: But did you see that um the Miles Garrett trade to the I believe the Chargers uh did?
[48:19] SPEAKER_02: No, to the Rams.
[48:21] SPEAKER_04: Or to the Rams, yeah.
[48:22] SPEAKER_04: Or so um did you also see that the Browns um general manager actually reached out to the Oklahoma City Thunder general manager, Sam Preste, to get his to have him weigh in on that trade deal.
[48:38] SPEAKER_04: And I guess Presty told him it's not all about picks, you need to go get a player, also.
[48:43] SPEAKER_04: But I just thought that showed part of what you were talking about of being an effective leader is you know, I mean, he he went out to a different sport or reached out to somebody in a different sport who had been successful to try and help him, you know, get an outside opinion on this particular trade.
[49:01] SPEAKER_04: And I just thought that was I think that was showing humility, and uh, yeah, and it was very smart.
[49:05] SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
[49:06] SPEAKER_04: So I I love that.
[49:07] SPEAKER_04: And I didn't know if you saw that.
[49:09] SPEAKER_02: No, I didn't see that, but uh that just sounds like somebody who's values expertise, you know, it's a sign of good leadership.
[49:19] SPEAKER_04: Well, RT, that does it for this conversation.
[49:21] SPEAKER_04: So uh we really enjoyed having you on the podcast as always.
[49:27] SPEAKER_04: I'm sure we'll have you on again in the future, but we'll make sure everybody go uh uh Ryan, do you know where we can get the book for the the personality and the secret life of organizations?
[49:37] SPEAKER_03: Yeah, certainly you can get it directly uh by by reaching out to your Hogan contact.
[49:42] SPEAKER_03: We can put you in in touch with with uh a way to get it.
[49:45] SPEAKER_03: But of course, the perhaps the easiest way and the most ubiquitous way to get it is just through Amazon.
[49:50] SPEAKER_03: Um but but we do have other avenues as well.
[49:53] SPEAKER_03: Um but uh if if you're Amazon if Amazon is your preferred route, you can you can get it there as well.
[50:00] SPEAKER_04: And we will put a link in the show notes for our listeners.
[50:03] SPEAKER_04: Uh and yeah, RT, congrats on your on your latest book.
[50:08] SPEAKER_02: Well, thanks.
[50:09] SPEAKER_02: Thanks for inviting me for your little program.
[50:13] SPEAKER_04: And that does it for the Science of Personality Podcast, episode 152.
[50:17] SPEAKER_04: Be sure to join us in two weeks for another fun and informative episode.
[50:21] SPEAKER_04: Cheers, everybody.
[50:26] SPEAKER_00: This has been the Science of Personality Podcast, brought to you by Hogan Escussments.
[50:31] SPEAKER_00: You can access all episodes on our website, science of personality.com, or on the streaming service of your choice.
[50:39] SPEAKER_00: See you next time.

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