# Revisited: The Kennedy Family and the Search for Self with Journalist Maria Shriver

An episode of [A Bit of Optimism](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1515385282), 10 Mar 2026, 44 min.

Audio: https://episode.flightcast.com/pv2vj5q4o2eqshoqxtccb0so.mp3

Hello from Team Simon! We’re taking a short hiatus, but A Bit of Optimism will return with brand-new episodes March 24th. In the meantime, we’re revisiting some of our favorite episodes. Episodes that many of you who listened, shared them, and told us what resonated. This week, we’re bringing back Simon’s conversation with journalist, author, and longtime friend Maria Shriver. Maria Shriver was born into the legendary Kennedy and Shriver families, arriving with a script already written for her—an identity shaped by legacy and expectation. From the start, the world had ideas about who she should be. But after decades as a journalist, years as California’s First Lady, and raising four amazing kids, Maria has been on a lifelong journey to peel back the layers and ask Who am I now?—and answer it for herself. Maria also happens to be Simon’s best friend. They talked about how they became each other’s “8-minute friends,” the quiet questions that shape us, and Maria’s beautiful new book of poetry—which she reads from in this episode. It’s all about identity, self-reflection, and finding your voice in a world that keeps trying to define it for you. If you’ve ever wondered who you are beyond what you do or how to rediscover yourself after life changes, this conversation is a beautiful reminder that identity is something we can reclaim again and again. This… is A Bit of Optimism. --------------------------- For more on Maria Shriver, check out: her book: https://bookshop.org/p/books/i-am-mar... ---------------------------

## Transcript

[0:00] You and I actually don't talk on the phone that much.
[0:01] No, we text.
[0:03] But you don't ever pick up the phone.
[0:04] That cat picture comes up and I call in like there's the cat.
[0:08] It's because it's not personal.
[0:11] It's because my phone isn't doing a disturbance when I see you call it.
[0:13] Then you call it that.
[0:16] We all know people with big personalities.
[0:19] But we would rarely call them kind.
[0:22] We also know people with small personalities
[0:24] and they are usually the kindest.
[0:27] Every now and then there's a big personality,
[0:30] a huge personality that shows up that just exudes kindness and warmth.
[0:36] And one of those people is Maria Shriver.
[0:39] I had the opportunity to sit down with Maria
[0:42] to talk about her new book, I Am Maria.
[0:44] Maria is my best friend and to hear her talk about the journey she is on
[0:49] to reclaim her own identity is nothing short of inspiring.
[0:54] And that little question I am and what it yields turns out
[0:59] has great value to all of us to find out who we really are
[1:04] and why we love ourselves.
[1:06] I am Simon and this is a bit of optimism.
[1:16] So yours and my friendship I think most people,
[1:19] including me, would not have predicted.
[1:21] We met kind of by accident.
[1:23] Right.
[1:25] I don't know how you tell the story,
[1:26] but I know that so you reached out to me many years ago.
[1:31] Right.
[1:32] And I don't know, to this day, I've never asked you how you got my email.
[1:34] But you reached out to me out of the blue and said,
[1:40] my son Patrick is a young entrepreneur.
[1:42] I don't know if you're ever in L.A.
[1:43] Would you like to meet him?
[1:44] And I said of course.
[1:45] And I came to L.A.
[1:46] And I met Patrick and he and I had a lovely time.
[1:49] When I got back to New York you sent me a lovely email saying thank you
[1:51] and I wrote back and saying the pleasure was all mine.
[1:54] And if who Patrick is is any statement about what kind of mother you are,
[1:58] you must be an amazing human being because he's an amazing kid.
[2:00] Thank you.
[2:01] I said I would love to meet you.
[2:02] So next time in L.A.
[2:03] I'll come out and see you.
[2:05] And I come back to L.A.
[2:06] on work for work and you said come for dinner on Sunday.
[2:10] And I thought it would be you me and Patrick having dinner at your house.
[2:13] That's what I thought.
[2:15] I walk into the house and there's some folks getting dinner ready
[2:20] and you're not around.
[2:22] Yeah, that's kind of normal.
[2:23] That's kind of normal.
[2:24] And so I'm stranger in a strange land and I said is Maria here.
[2:28] Right.
[2:29] And they said she's downstairs and I said where's downstairs?
[2:33] I went down and sitting on the couch was Chris Pratt.
[2:36] And I had no idea he was your son-in-law at the time.
[2:40] So I'm like okay.
[2:42] Hi.
[2:42] He's like hi, I'm Chris, you know, hi, I'm Simon, where's Maria?
[2:46] Anyway, long story short, it was the start of what became now an amazing friendship and you're
[2:52] you're my best friend.
[2:53] If I say one of my best friends, I get in trouble.
[2:56] You're my best friend and it is a joy to have you here talking to you very formally.
[3:02] It's a weird, it's whole thing is weird.
[3:04] So I tell the story, well I actually don't tell the story.
[3:09] I just say like you're my bestie and that's exactly how it happened.
[3:16] And you walked into a family dinner on Sunday night, which was packed.
[3:20] And overwhelming.
[3:21] It was.
[3:21] I mean, no, no, meaning the personalities.
[3:24] They are.
[3:24] I mean, there's a lot of big personalities.
[3:26] Yeah, there's a lot of big personalities at the table.
[3:28] But you held your own and you got into a like a big discussion with my brother Bobby and then
[3:33] Chris and everybody was talking and then you stood in the door.
[3:37] You're like that was fun and I'm like he's fun.
[3:39] He's smart.
[3:40] He's fun.
[3:42] I'm going to pursue him and then we walked
[3:45] and we talked our way, you know, through years.
[3:50] We covered years.
[3:51] We covered years in weeks.
[3:54] We pioneered the long distance walk.
[3:57] Right.
[3:57] It was very early in COVID where we said I think we can go outside.
[4:00] I think we if we stay very far apart from each other.
[4:02] And we just started walking and we did it every single week.
[4:05] Yeah.
[4:06] For a really long period and we talked about everything.
[4:09] We talked about everything and it was so
[4:12] intimate and deep and meaningful and bonding.
[4:17] And it was so rewarding for me because those are the kinds of conversations I like to have.
[4:23] These are the kinds of relationships I like to have.
[4:27] But what I think what so that wasn't unexpected to me to, you know, fall in love with you
[4:34] and to have this relationship with you.
[4:35] But what was so beautiful or what is so beautiful
[4:39] is that you develop that with each of my kids.
[4:44] And my brothers and my son-in-law.
[4:48] And you you took the time to figure out who each person was.
[4:53] And you have a different relationship with each of them,
[4:57] which is so beautiful and so few people do that.
[5:00] I think in my kids often say that to me, you know, they'll meet somebody 10 times
[5:04] and they'll go, oh, hey, your name is or and you know what their interests are,
[5:10] what makes them laugh.
[5:11] They know you, you talk to them individually, you make an effort.
[5:16] And so you have this relationship with my whole family, with my brothers.
[5:21] And so I think that's such a gift in my life.
[5:26] And it's a gift in their life.
[5:28] So you're in it.
[5:30] You're being very kind and thank you very much.
[5:31] That's true.
[5:32] It's a good transition.
[5:33] It's a good segue, which is you grew up in an insane, for you, it was normal as a little kid.
[5:40] You didn't only different, but like visiting Uncle Jack at the White House is what,
[5:43] an eight-year-old, nine-year-old, you know, this sort of larger than life,
[5:48] the Kennedy Shriver family.
[5:50] As you became older and you started to realize that your life is not like everybody else's life.
[5:55] How did you learn to manage that?
[5:56] And more importantly, kids growing up now in the Kennedy Shriver clan,
[6:00] and now you add a Schwarzenegger to it.
[6:02] How did you keep them grounded?
[6:04] I'm so curious, because I've met a lot of kids of people who've grown up in different ways.
[6:10] Maybe they get lucky with one of the kids staying grounded, but not all the kids.
[6:15] Probably take it from kind of my own creation of my own kids and go backwards.
[6:20] So what I wanted to do when I started a family was to make sure that the kids that Arnold and I had
[6:29] felt like they were a priority, felt that they were loved for who they were, not for what they did,
[6:37] and that they had a sense of home, a sense of calm, a sense of peace, that they understood
[6:46] that they were coming into a privileged home, but that they're part of that was also that
[6:53] I and their dad expected them to be of service somehow in the world.
[6:56] Those were my goals and that they have manners and they be kind.
[7:01] And I really wanted them being a priority in feeling loved was the most important thing to me,
[7:07] because I had felt like I was part of this group of like 27 first cousins.
[7:13] And I felt like I was always a couple rows back.
[7:17] Like I wasn't really clear.
[7:19] I knew my uncles were in the front row and everything was geared around them.
[7:23] And we were all part of a larger story, but I didn't feel like a priority.
[7:30] And I felt like, oh, the love was attached to what you do.
[7:33] This is not a complaint to my parents.
[7:35] I adore my parents.
[7:37] I love my parents, but it's the way they were raised and it was the way I was raised.
[7:42] And I wanted to break that pattern.
[7:45] So I wanted the house not to be a place where there were fundraisers and
[7:50] political things that wanted it to be a place of home.
[7:53] I wanted them to understand that
[7:56] their names and who they were was more important than the Kennedys, the Schwartz and Agres,
[8:00] the Shrivers and all of that.
[8:02] And I wanted to talk to them at length about that, about what those legacies were.
[8:10] They were not theirs to work, you know, uphold for the rest of their life.
[8:15] If they didn't want to, that there was good things and bad things about all of them.
[8:20] And that, you know, that they were free to depart from them in whatever way they wanted.
[8:27] I also did not feel that.
[8:28] I think it's also different when someone is making a legacy versus inheriting a legacy.
[8:33] Is this a conversation that you and Arnold had when you first got pregnant with Catherine?
[8:37] Well, I think Arnold was creating his legacy.
[8:40] He had not ever grown up in a legacy, right?
[8:44] And so that was something that I came to the union with.
[8:47] I came with like, look at these kids are going to be dealing with me, the Kennedys, and you.
[8:54] He didn't have an experience with that.
[8:56] So he was like, okay, well, you deal with that, you know, kind of thing.
[8:59] And you were very prescriptive.
[9:01] I was very impressed.
[9:02] I was very like, I wanted these things for them.
[9:05] You know, I wanted them to feel like they were their own people.
[9:08] I didn't want them to feel weighed down by it.
[9:10] I didn't want them to walk out the door and think every person was a vote.
[9:14] Like I'd walk with my grandmother and she would be like, every person's a vote.
[9:18] Everybody we walk by, we stop, we say hello, we smile, we keep walking.
[9:23] We stop, we say hello, we smile like, oh, but I didn't want.
[9:27] So family was being having that Kennedy striver name was, that was a job.
[9:32] Oh, it was, it was like a lot.
[9:35] Yeah, I mean, it was a lot of joy, a lot of advantages, a lot of work.
[9:40] But it was, you know, I definitely felt like, okay, we were on a stage.
[9:44] We had a job to do.
[9:46] I was a player in some larger show.
[9:49] I wasn't quite sure what the show was.
[9:51] And I think for much of my life, I was trying to get out of that show.
[9:56] I think that's why I went into journalism.
[9:59] It's why I moved to California, trying to kind of figure out who was I
[10:04] in all of this and then, you know, be able to go back home and understand
[10:08] who I was in the larger storyline.
[10:11] And I think this is something that every kid probably deals with, right?
[10:15] You know, every person is trying to figure out who they are, no matter what their family is.
[10:21] And where is home for them and, you know, what role are they playing?
[10:26] And I think it's, it's emphasized when you're dealing with a legacy.
[10:31] I think what you're touching on is every single one of us at some point in our lives
[10:35] and sometimes multiple times we'll struggle with our identities.
[10:38] Correct.
[10:39] And it's not unique to somebody who's grown up like you have,
[10:42] you know, people will confuse their identities with their job title.
[10:45] Correct.
[10:45] I am a CEO or their, or their career.
[10:48] I am a lawyer.
[10:49] Like that's who I am.
[10:50] No, no, it's what you do.
[10:51] Right.
[10:52] Or it's the position you have.
[10:54] And I've seen it.
[10:55] You've seen it many times, which is very successful people.
[10:58] When they move on or they change jobs,
[11:01] they literally will suffer an identity crisis.
[11:02] Because for 20 years, 30 years, 40 years,
[11:05] their whole identity has entwined with a job or a position
[11:08] that when that job or position no longer exists.
[11:12] Depression or collapse or strange things start to happen.
[11:15] Yeah.
[11:15] And so, you know, but even beyond, I am a mother.
[11:19] I hear people say that it will tell me who you are.
[11:21] Well, I'm a mother or I'm a father.
[11:23] But even that's not an identity.
[11:24] Well, I think, but I think society puts a lot of pressure
[11:27] on you to respond in that way.
[11:29] People ask you, like I went to a party the other night
[11:33] with my daughter, the first question to her every single time
[11:36] was, tell me what you do.
[11:37] Tell me what you do.
[11:38] What is your interest?
[11:40] What do you do?
[11:41] And not who you are.
[11:42] And not even like what your name is.
[11:44] Tell me what you do.
[11:45] And I think, you know, this book, I called it,
[11:49] I am Maria because I grew up being asked all the time,
[11:53] which Kennedy are you?
[11:56] That was just, you know, the question I got more than any
[11:59] single other question, which Kennedy are you?
[12:02] And I still get it today, like if I'm walking through the airport
[12:06] or, you know, somebody say, you're a Kennedy, right?
[12:09] And I used to just be like, no, I'm not, I'm Maria.
[12:11] And they would be like, put your a Kennedy even as an adult.
[12:14] And now I just go, yeah, I'm a Kennedy.
[12:16] Yeah, it's like, I'm in my sixties, right?
[12:20] But I think it's, so I understand.
[12:22] So I often find people come up to me and say, I'm just this
[12:27] that or the other.
[12:28] And I always try to say, well, what's your name?
[12:31] Yeah.
[12:31] Who are you?
[12:32] Tell me about yourself.
[12:34] So that's why I wanted to call this I am.
[12:36] It's very spiritual to me.
[12:37] It's, it kind of has a religious feeling to it.
[12:41] But it's owning your name, you know, your parents give you
[12:44] your name and it's claiming this is I am.
[12:48] This is who I am.
[12:50] It's claiming the identity of yourself, right?
[12:53] Because our, our surnames are predefined for us.
[12:56] And we're part of that legacy, whatever that is.
[12:59] There's at least a lineage.
[13:00] Our jobs are not ours, you know, but our name, as you said,
[13:04] like it's the only thing that really is, is us.
[13:07] Right.
[13:07] And it's claiming that over and over, right?
[13:09] It's claiming I am this person.
[13:12] And then it's like, well, tell me who is that person?
[13:15] So who is Maria without saying mother, you know, journalist?
[13:19] Like, that's been a lifetime to figure that out.
[13:22] And that's what this book is really about.
[13:24] Who is Maria?
[13:25] So, well, if I were I am Maria, I'm a woman.
[13:29] I'm a monastic, spiritual, loving, kind, fun, funny, artistic, deep.
[13:39] I think wise, broken, scared, strong, vulnerable, 69-year-old woman.
[13:50] Yeah.
[13:51] That's who I am.
[13:52] And I have had the joy to be able to have been a mother.
[13:56] And I am a mother.
[13:58] Yeah.
[13:58] I have been a wife.
[14:00] I have been a daughter.
[14:01] I am a daughter, even though my parents are deceased.
[14:04] I am a sister.
[14:05] I'm an aunt.
[14:07] But these are all titles that, you know, kind of society puts on you.
[14:12] I try to be a loving, a supportive family member.
[14:17] That means I'm an aunt, a sister, a mom.
[14:20] I love the redirect, you know, and somebody says, so what do you do?
[14:23] Instead of making, pushing back against the question, it's an honest question,
[14:28] to simply say, let me tell you who I am.
[14:30] Right.
[14:30] It's just simply redirect.
[14:31] Yeah, redirect.
[14:32] What do you do?
[14:33] Well, let me tell you who I am.
[14:34] Exactly.
[14:34] And to say that list, you know,
[14:36] that is how we feel and all of the things that go along with it.
[14:40] It's, I mean, I know you really well.
[14:42] But just to hear you say all those words together, it's a resting.
[14:47] Because we see ourselves in some of that.
[14:49] And we find connection in some of that.
[14:50] Yeah.
[14:51] Well, I hope because that is for me the best way to form connection.
[14:56] When somebody says, you know, I am insecure.
[14:58] I am scared.
[14:59] And then I go, talk to me about that.
[15:02] I also feel insecure.
[15:04] I also doubt myself.
[15:07] I also feel vulnerable.
[15:10] I also feel tender.
[15:11] Tell me how you feel.
[15:13] Do you ever feel strong?
[15:15] Do you ever feel old?
[15:18] Do you feel young?
[15:21] Talk to me about that.
[15:22] Instead of tell me about your job at the law firm.
[15:26] And I mean, I can get to all of that.
[15:28] But who you are is how I connect to you.
[15:32] Or interesting.
[15:33] It's way more interesting.
[15:34] People often find it, they're surprised
[15:37] that you're interested in who they are and not what they do.
[15:41] Some of these poems, reading them, which surprised me,
[15:45] was it's how you talk.
[15:48] I didn't even connect that.
[15:50] You speak in poems.
[15:51] You speak like this.
[15:52] Like when you and I are having a conversation, even now talking to you.
[15:55] You know, if I were to write some of these lines down,
[15:57] the repetition and some of the reinforcements and tell me who you, I mean,
[16:01] it's, I'm just like, if you read this, then you know what it's like to hang out.
[16:07] That's a great compliment because it is a good compliment.
[16:09] Yeah, it's a very real, it's, you didn't, it's, it's, it's, it's how you speak.
[16:15] Reporters poetry, you know, that I sit, I'm reporting from the front lines.
[16:20] It's kind of, it's, you know, the first part of the book is reflections on life and kind of
[16:25] identity and trying to figure out what, but it's how you think.
[16:28] It's how I think.
[16:30] It's how I think and it's giving a kind of framework to how I think, how I visualize
[16:37] and how I visualize my way forward.
[16:40] And it's a revelation to me to discover my own heartbreak and to find
[16:47] connection in other people's heartbreak.
[16:50] It's a revelation to me to discover my own loneliness and to find connection with other people
[16:56] with their loneliness, to talk about what does home mean, where is home, to talk about healing
[17:03] and the strength that is required to actually heal, to heal patterns, to heal family dramas
[17:12] that have gone through generations.
[17:13] This is not work that I thought of when I was a kid or a young woman as hard work
[17:19] or as successful work and I now look at it as the most successful thing we can do.
[17:24] Did you have to learn to be vulnerable?
[17:26] Oh, yeah.
[17:29] Is it like the past five years, the past 10 years, the past 20 years?
[17:32] I mean, it's, I know it's a journey, but like, there has to been a point where
[17:37] something clicked.
[17:38] Well, I think certainly, you know, kind of my divorce, I think, you know, landed me on the floor
[17:44] and I had to kind of go like, whoa, you know, what is this and I want to get up from this,
[17:50] but I'm going to get up differently.
[17:52] And I think that has certainly, you know, set me off onto a different path.
[17:56] I think it really probably began way before that with my mother's death.
[18:02] How do you when she died?
[18:03] I was in my 50s, so she died and but that was something I had feared my whole life because
[18:10] she'd been sick a lot, but she was my, you know, anchor, she was my everything and it was
[18:16] something that I thought like I'll never be able to survive my mother's death.
[18:21] And I think when she died, it was a soul shifting experience for me.
[18:29] It was an identity shifting experience for me and it was quickly followed by my father's death
[18:35] by the end of my marriage, by finding a new home and then a search for a new identity.
[18:42] It all happened within two years.
[18:45] And then, you know, then it's been all of these many years later.
[18:49] Yeah, my mother died, two weeks later, my uncle died, two years later, my father died,
[18:53] and a couple months after that, I got separated and I had been first lady and that ended.
[18:59] So it was a rapid succession of really groundbreaking change underneath my feet.
[19:06] And I think, you know, for me to step back and go, okay, wait a second now,
[19:12] I need to emerge from this.
[19:14] I need to rise from this.
[19:16] I always talk about rising above the noise.
[19:19] I need to rise and I'm going to rise differently.
[19:21] I have to rise differently.
[19:23] I have to break through as I write in the book The Denial that I had had since I was a child.
[19:29] I had to break through the identities that I had kind of hid behind, you know,
[19:36] and that had given me cover, that had given me protection.
[19:39] And I now knew I was on my own, a hundred percent on my own.
[19:42] So who was that person?
[19:45] She wasn't the first lady anymore.
[19:47] Was I still a journalist?
[19:48] I don't know.
[19:49] What was I?
[19:51] Who was I going to be?
[19:52] When people always talk about, you know, the importance of doing the work.
[19:55] I'm doing the work.
[19:56] That person, they need to do the work, you know, in relationships.
[19:58] I wish my partner would do the work.
[20:00] I'm helping them do the work.
[20:01] You know, I'm so fascinated by the relationship of quote-unquote doing the work alone
[20:05] versus needing the support of others to do that.
[20:09] Is it possible to do the work alone of finding oneself?
[20:11] Well, I've done the work in community, I would say, because I had, as I wrote in the book,
[20:19] I write about kind of having a masterclass in friendship.
[20:22] People held my hand.
[20:24] They walked with me.
[20:26] They talked with me.
[20:27] They sat with me.
[20:28] But I went and did a long work with a therapist, with shamans, with journeys.
[20:34] I went away on my own.
[20:36] I went to a convent on my own.
[20:38] But I did the work or the silence in community.
[20:42] So I don't see that I did it alone.
[20:44] I wasn't in a relationship doing it.
[20:46] But I don't think anybody really quote does it alone.
[20:49] You know, okay, I'll just say, I'll say it to my personal point of view.
[20:53] Which is, I know that I'm a better version of myself.
[20:57] I know that I'm more comfortable being vulnerable.
[20:59] I know that I'm taking myself on an away.
[21:02] Because I wouldn't be able to get away with not because of our friendship.
[21:07] That's what I mean.
[21:08] Yeah.
[21:09] And to be your friend means you sign up for all of it.
[21:13] There's the fun, there's the laughs, there's the family.
[21:15] But there's also like the conversations about, you know, loneliness or ADHD.
[21:20] They come out relatively effortlessly now.
[21:22] Yeah.
[21:23] In company, not alone.
[21:25] Yeah.
[21:25] At the end of the day, what jobs come and go?
[21:28] But if we work on our friendships, if we laugh with our friends,
[21:31] if we love our friends, if we show up for our friends,
[21:34] if we give them the eight minutes in those moments of like,
[21:37] I need, I need you on the phone.
[21:39] Are you there, right?
[21:40] Those are the things they're going to be with us till the end.
[21:45] So that's what's important.
[21:46] And for those who may know of that video that I made,
[21:49] where I talked about the eight minutes, it was you and me.
[21:52] It was you and me.
[21:53] That was our experience.
[21:54] Where I asked you how you were and you said, I'm better now.
[22:00] And I said, what do you mean you're better now?
[22:01] And you're like, I've had a horrible week.
[22:03] I'm like, well, why didn't you call me?
[22:03] And you're like, I did.
[22:04] And I look up my text and says, you thought, you there?
[22:06] What are you doing?
[22:07] What do you, I'm like, yeah.
[22:08] And it was that you, you were the one who read the article that said,
[22:11] all a friend needs is eight minutes.
[22:12] And so now if we need each other, I like have eight minutes.
[22:15] We have eight minutes.
[22:15] Do you have eight minutes?
[22:16] You were the OG for that, for that experience, yeah.
[22:19] You know, you were saying actually last night that you forget to call people,
[22:23] you forget to check in that that happens with your parents.
[22:27] And I went to bed thinking, well, that's not my experience with you actually.
[22:32] You do check in.
[22:33] You do call.
[22:35] You do go like, I'm driving by.
[22:36] I want to you sometimes check in and I walk in and I haven't even invited you.
[22:41] You're like, in the pantry.
[22:42] And I'm like, Simon, what are you doing?
[22:44] It's like, I came in to get a marsh bar.
[22:46] Okay, but again, I'm like, well, what, but you, you are a lad.
[22:49] That happened once.
[22:51] You came downstairs and I was in the pantry.
[22:54] That is a true.
[22:55] That's my kids all the time in the pantry.
[22:59] I was like, no, Simon's not here tonight.
[23:00] But, but I think that that's what makes my life joyful.
[23:04] That's what makes my life joyful.
[23:06] Yeah.
[23:06] You and I actually don't talk on the phone that much.
[23:08] No, we text.
[23:09] But you don't ever pick up the phone.
[23:11] That cat picture comes up and I call in like, there's the cat.
[23:15] It's because it's not, it's not personal.
[23:17] It's because my phone doesn't do that disturb.
[23:18] But when I see you call it or you call that, but the point is is like,
[23:23] we actually, when you and I are traveling, we actually don't talk that much.
[23:27] I think the thing is that the time when we have time together,
[23:30] it's so intense and so cherished that I don't think we realize
[23:34] that we actually don't talk so much in the gaps.
[23:37] Well, maybe I'm talking to you on my head.
[23:40] But I think, you know, it's, I've been getting credit for it
[23:44] then continue with that.
[23:45] But you know, what's amazing to me is I've watched you evolve.
[23:49] I've watched you, you've become way more open and vulnerable.
[23:55] You've become way more open about how you feel, you know,
[24:00] before you were talking a lot about business and showing up and leadership.
[24:04] And now you talk a lot more about emotions and friendships and family, you know,
[24:11] things that are going on in your life, deep in your soul in a different way.
[24:16] And that to me has been a beautiful evolution to watch in you.
[24:21] You'll talk about like, I'm not really sure what I want to do now or what subject I want to speak
[24:25] about. People all want to come up to me and talk about one thing, you know,
[24:30] your version of the Kennedy thing is that everybody wants, you know,
[24:33] can you help me with my why?
[24:34] Can you help me with my why?
[24:36] And there's probably nobody saying, how are you?
[24:40] Just help me with my why?
[24:42] Can you fix that for me or find it for me?
[24:44] Or, and I see that with people, you know, in life that people get really well-known for
[24:50] something or get really successful.
[24:53] And that, you know, we lose sight of like, well, actually, how are you?
[24:58] Are you dealing with any heartbreak?
[24:59] Are you dealing with any loneliness?
[25:01] Do you have friends that can help you?
[25:04] And those are the conversations that I'm interested in.
[25:09] I'm interested in your heartbreak.
[25:11] This is what it means to be your friend, which is you don't care.
[25:15] We've never talked about, we rarely talk about work.
[25:17] And you're only interested in me as a human being,
[25:21] which is probably the one of the reasons it's nice to come over,
[25:24] which is, which is, everybody can just be themselves.
[25:28] It's the container you create to the point where
[25:33] your kids had no idea like we were out with Christina.
[25:36] She had no idea that I did work anything other than I was just somebody who came over.
[25:40] Yeah, Christopher was like, I didn't even know that Simon, like, had a block or did a thing.
[25:46] Yeah, that was so funny, because what was really funny is when we went to special Olympics in Berlin.
[25:53] And we went out, we were in a coffee shop with Simon.
[25:56] You mean, Christina?
[25:57] Yeah, my daughter, Christina.
[25:59] And people started coming up asking Simon for pictures.
[26:03] And we were like, what's going on?
[26:06] Why is everybody asking Simon for his picture?
[26:08] And he's like, I'm famous, you guys.
[26:10] I didn't say that.
[26:13] I didn't say that, but Christina was genuinely confused.
[26:16] Yeah, she was like, why is everybody want a picture with Simon?
[26:21] Yeah, but he was really cute.
[26:23] I said, you should just like, everybody should just walk around with Simon
[26:26] and then everybody stops and wants to have a picture with Simon.
[26:29] But that was really funny, but yeah.
[26:33] But Christopher was like, I didn't even know Simon, like, did anything.
[26:37] This is the thing, which is I'm invited into your home as me,
[26:41] as you, not as somebody who's done something.
[26:42] And that's the thing, which is, this is Simon.
[26:45] He's my friend is how I get introduced to your kids.
[26:47] Exactly.
[26:48] And so they set to get to know me as a friend of their mom,
[26:51] as opposed to somebody who did something.
[26:53] And now they're friends, they introduce you.
[26:55] This is my friend, Simon.
[26:56] And I think the thing that I'm walking away from here,
[26:59] which is this idea of creating the container,
[27:02] which is, I think we have fun with our friends.
[27:05] And some, I love that way you put that, the container.
[27:08] The container.
[27:09] Yeah, I call it home for me.
[27:12] But creating a container actually requires work.
[27:15] And you touched upon it before, which is people prioritize work over their friends.
[27:20] People think their relationships are sometimes more important than their friends.
[27:24] What I'm learning is that you can't get through this difficult thing called work
[27:29] without a friend.
[27:30] Right.
[27:30] On the worst days, you better have a friend.
[27:33] And even your relationships, like relationships sometimes are a struggle.
[27:36] And the way you get through relationships and arguments with your,
[27:39] with your romantic partner is, if you have a friend,
[27:43] like the friend is the foundation of the success of all those other things.
[27:47] And if you don't have a friend that can create,
[27:50] who knows how to create, say, of containers,
[27:52] for you to have those very uncomfortable, difficult conversations of insecurity,
[27:55] fear, self-doubt, whether it's professional or personal,
[27:58] then the relationships, romantic relationships, and work relationships,
[28:02] are more likely to falter.
[28:04] There's so many, so much talk and so much written about how to be productive at work.
[28:10] Right.
[28:10] And how to have a successful marriage and how to find your partner of love.
[28:13] And yet we don't learn how to create a container for our friends to just relax and be themselves.
[28:21] And being your true self, I actually was thinking about this recently,
[28:24] which is the idea that we have fully authentic and fully our true selves in the outside world.
[28:28] And that's actually not allowed.
[28:30] Because if everybody was fully themselves all the time,
[28:34] sort of things wouldn't work.
[28:36] Because there's no norms or standards.
[28:38] Like, if I go for a job interview and I'm an entry level,
[28:42] well, my true self is, I like to dress like a surfer, it's how I feel.
[28:46] No, no, no, no.
[28:48] Show respect for the place you're going to, and look a little nicer, right?
[28:52] It's not the time and place you can add flourishes for sure.
[28:56] Nobody's telling you to suppress yourself,
[28:58] but the idea of being fully realized at every moment,
[29:02] there are standards and norms that make polite society work.
[29:06] But that's not to say you shouldn't have a safe space to let those things out.
[29:08] And those safe spaces are those safe containers with those friends.
[29:13] Just like I don't want to be professional at home,
[29:14] I don't want to be fully personal at work,
[29:17] but I do need to do both.
[29:18] Does that make sense?
[29:19] Yeah, and I think there's so much emphasize in our culture about success at work.
[29:26] And that is the be all and all.
[29:28] And I think that you're beginning to see people thinking about what actually
[29:32] is a successful life.
[29:34] What is it? I call it a meaningful life.
[29:37] A life-worth living, Maris Lotholf calls it.
[29:40] You know, a life-worth living.
[29:42] What will, you know, I look back on if I'm 80 or 90?
[29:46] What will be the kind of verticals of a life well-lived, right?
[29:53] And work has a place in there, but it's not your whole life, right?
[29:58] And so how do we cultivate friendships?
[30:01] How do we cultivate a life of faith?
[30:03] For example, for me, that was super important.
[30:06] How do we learn to communicate with our children as they become adults?
[30:12] I'm doing a whole different kind of mothering today than I did when I had toddlers
[30:18] or teenagers or college-aged children, right?
[30:21] Now I'm in a different place and space.
[30:24] I'm creating a different container than I did when my kids were growing up.
[30:30] How, if I'm divorced, how do I create a container where both of my kids' parents
[30:35] can coexist, can exhibit love, can exhibit friendship,
[30:40] can make everybody feel at peace?
[30:45] That's my job now.
[30:46] How do I live a life where I feel when I'm on my deathbed
[30:50] that I look back and go, you know, I worked out what I needed to work out?
[30:54] I healed what I needed to heal.
[30:57] I had all these experiences of joy and heartbreak and success and failure
[31:02] and that's what a life offers to us and I went for it in all those areas.
[31:06] That's what I'm interested in and that to me is success.
[31:12] You know, my friend Sean, he was telling me about a test that he did with his partner,
[31:18] his husband, and I said, can you do it with me because I don't have a partner?
[31:22] So I want to do it.
[31:23] He said, well, it's the same, it's the exact same thing.
[31:25] Just the only difference is one relationship involves a sexual relationship,
[31:31] but a friendship can ask the same questions.
[31:34] And the questions were, you know, what do you like about this relationship?
[31:39] What do you want me to do better?
[31:40] What do you notice about how I've grown?
[31:43] What do you notice about, you know, how I'm living my life?
[31:47] How could I hear a five things you may not know about me?
[31:51] Tell me five things.
[31:51] I don't know about you.
[31:53] Tell me what you're afraid of.
[31:55] And these things opened up a whole new area of conversation.
[31:58] So I try to do that sort of thing.
[32:00] That's so good.
[32:01] I love this exercise of going through these questions that are, again,
[32:05] we developed these systems to help romantic partners.
[32:08] Yeah, exactly.
[32:08] Don't develop these systems to help friends.
[32:10] And simply to have a card where you take the time to sit down with someone
[32:14] and say, let's do this.
[32:15] By the way, romantic couples do this.
[32:17] We do this and we have review sessions at work.
[32:20] We have feedback sessions at work where we learn about each other from a work context.
[32:24] Exactly.
[32:24] But we don't do this as friends.
[32:25] We don't do the work of friendship.
[32:27] Yeah, so like your love language,
[32:29] that's interesting to me as your friend.
[32:32] So why is it only that a romantic partner gets to ask what's your love language?
[32:37] And that it's allowed to change?
[32:39] Yes, it's allowed.
[32:40] Or you know, there's that New York Times 36 questions.
[32:44] But it's for people who want to fall in love with the person they're asking the question.
[32:47] But those questions are really cool to ask anybody.
[32:50] Well in love with a friend.
[32:51] Yeah, fall in love with a friend or understand who,
[32:54] if you could have dinner with one person from history, who would it be?
[32:58] Like why do you have to ask that to somebody you want to fall in love with?
[33:01] Why can't you just ask that to anybody?
[33:03] It goes back to that service component, right?
[33:05] Which is, if you want that safe container,
[33:09] then offer it to someone first.
[33:10] Like if you want someone to be curious about you,
[33:13] then be curious about them first.
[33:14] Yeah, well curiosity is not my superpower,
[33:18] but I've always since I was little, been curious,
[33:20] which is why journalism was so great for me,
[33:23] because I'm always like, why?
[33:26] Why are you here?
[33:27] Where you go, that was always my jam.
[33:30] My kids are always like, could you please not talk to the waiter all the time?
[33:34] Could you please not talk to the valet guy,
[33:36] because now we're like 20 minutes later?
[33:38] Could you please stop talking to the barista?
[33:41] But I find it so interesting to talk to the baristas to why she has blue hair.
[33:49] Christopher, my youngest, I was like, I see that the woman has blue
[33:53] please, do not ask her why she has blue hair.
[33:57] I go, well people have blue hair want to be asked
[33:59] why they have blue hair goes, she does not.
[34:01] I was like, how do you know?
[34:02] You don't know.
[34:04] But anyway, it's like, because he's always like,
[34:07] like this, you know, it's so funny,
[34:10] because each kid is different, you know?
[34:12] But so when I'm with him, I try not to be curious.
[34:16] Not to be as curious, just because I can see he's as embarrassed as he could get
[34:22] by me sometimes.
[34:23] But I think this is the point, which is you have a curiosity about your friends,
[34:27] that a lot of people have for strangers.
[34:30] For me, when I think about like what makes, you know,
[34:33] we talk so much about success and we talk about presenting ourselves as success at all
[34:38] of these things, this is success.
[34:41] Having time to spend with people that I love, that I adore, that make me feel home,
[34:50] you know, this book is really about making the way through heartbreak that is inevitable
[34:55] in everybody's life, doing the work of healing that is a choice,
[35:00] and then finding your way back to home.
[35:03] Home, you know, you're home to me, I'm at home in me.
[35:07] Why does everybody tell us we're here to be on the cover of Forbes?
[35:10] Why does everybody tell us we're here to be the CEO and have no time for our family or our friends?
[35:16] Why does the world tell us to run around like a lunatic and at the expense of everything
[35:24] that's important? Why does the world or society or our culture or the press tell us it's this when
[35:31] it's this? We're all obsessed with productivity and metrics and measuring and sleep apps and
[35:36] and this goes like that, right? I've been fired from a job and then you're sitting there going like
[35:41] what? What? I thought that was my quote home. I remember when I was fired from the CBS Morning
[35:47] News. I was the anchor with Forrest Sawyer and and the the president of the news division fired
[35:54] all of us overnight and I was like, wait, what? And it's like the show's gone. I'm moving it to
[36:01] the entertainment division out of the news division. You all can go look for other jobs and you can
[36:06] stay here if you want and go work in another division. I was just like, but this is my home.
[36:11] They're like, it's not your home. And I'm like, it's not? They're like, no. And I was like, oh,
[36:19] oh, okay. Wow, I made a big mistake. I thought this job was my home.
[36:27] So I picked up my bags, walked out the revolving door at CBS News and said, I'm never coming home again.
[36:33] So there. And then I walked down the street and went over to NBC News, right? But I didn't make
[36:41] the same mistake at NBC News that I made at CBS News. I didn't think I was going to go and get a
[36:48] new home. I thought I was going to get a new job. Hopefully I'd meet some people that could make
[36:53] me feel like I'd have and I have. I've made relationships there outside of the building so that when
[37:01] they fire me or tell me like when I became first lady and they called me and said, you're out.
[37:06] And I'm like, wait a minute. What? They're like, you can't work here anymore. If you have a husband
[37:10] who's a governor, it's a conflict of interest. Bye-bye. I didn't have the same meltdown that I had when
[37:17] I was at CBS because I knew I wasn't being kicked out of my home. I was losing a job. And it goes
[37:22] back to identity again, right? Because when we lose our jobs, we think they're taking away our identity.
[37:26] Well, they're taking away our finances. They're taking away stability. They're taking away
[37:32] identity. Oh, still, they're taking away where you go every day. They're taking away everything.
[37:38] And so it is, it's a lot to lose your job. When I was fired from CBS, I was stunned.
[37:48] But I made a mistake thinking that as I said that that was my home. So when I write on the cover
[37:53] of this book, finding our way home, I want to have a conversation about the home within,
[37:59] the home that we create with our friends and our family and our loved ones. It's not a home
[38:05] that a job gives to us. It's a home we create. My reflections and poems on heartbreak, healing
[38:12] and finding your way home. Right. Yeah. Do you have a favorite poem in here?
[38:16] That's a good question. No, I think for me, maybe small is a, it's in the beginning,
[38:24] is that I think another thing that society does to us is tells us, you're small, you're big,
[38:32] you're a winner, you're a loser, it puts these. It's good. I read it. It's good. You're right.
[38:39] It's going to just sound like he's speaking. I feel so small. I always have so small in a house
[38:46] where everything was so big, so small that I got lost. Did you notice that I was small?
[38:53] Did you notice I couldn't reach? Did you notice I was scared? No, of course you didn't.
[38:58] Your door was shut. Your eyes were closed. Your heart, I couldn't find it, couldn't touch it,
[39:04] couldn't reach it. It too was lost, deeply buried in a dark place. I couldn't reach it.
[39:13] I tried all different ways to grow big. Big was what you noticed. Big was what you liked.
[39:19] Big was what I tried to be. I grew up, I grew out, I tried on big, but it never fit. Big was an
[39:27] illusion. Big enough was unattainable. I was too small to be big enough. There were so many
[39:34] bigs in my house, so I left. I found another place to try on big, but I was small there too.
[39:41] I couldn't reach the lights. I couldn't touch what I wanted to touch, and so I gave up.
[39:46] I made peace with being small. I gave up trying to be big. I decided it hurt too much. I changed my
[39:53] mind about big, and when I did, I found your big heart in that small little room you hid in.
[40:00] My big heart loves your small little self. I wish you'd known how big you already were.
[40:06] When I read this, I think about my mom, who was so big to me, but she didn't realize how big she
[40:15] was, because she was surrounded by brothers who society told her were bigger than her,
[40:22] and who were so big. They were so big that everybody was looking up here, so she couldn't see
[40:31] down here, and she couldn't see in here, because she was trying to reach that, compete with that.
[40:38] When I think of my mother now, I have so much empathy for her, and I have so much sadness,
[40:48] but really empathy for how hard she worked, and how unseen she was, and that I was not able to
[41:00] really talk to her about her heartbreak, or her healing, or her way home, because she had never
[41:07] been granted the time to have those conversations. She was in such a hurry to be big,
[41:12] that I've had those conversations with her now in death, actually, and that she herself,
[41:23] we all have this small little child inside of all of us, and so today I try to think about
[41:28] the little girl that lived in my mother, how small she was, and how beautiful she was, and what
[41:37] she was like as a little girl, and I say to her, I see you now, mummy, I see you, and you're
[41:43] enough, you're so big to me, and I think I've learned in life is that people who are society say
[41:50] are so big, so often don't feel that at all, and so I think it's, you know, I don't try to be big
[41:58] anymore, and I don't try to be small, I just try to be I am. That book is a gift. It's a gift to
[42:05] the world, it really is. Thank you. The questions you ask are deep. Yeah. Not difficult, but deep.
[42:11] Right. People don't have to ask the questions of themselves because you will ask them of us.
[42:16] Yeah, and I'm hopeful that they will, because I think so many people that I meet or some feel like
[42:22] something's quite not like it's supposed to be, I'm stuck, or whatever it is, and I think by asking
[42:28] yourself, reporting in a way on yourself, I love this thing, your mind, this is called be miracle
[42:35] minded, and your mind wages war on your tender little heart. You know that don't you child,
[42:41] said the voice from afar, so instead be miracle minded. Yes, miracle minded. I like the sound of
[42:50] that, but just how does that work? How does miracle minded feel inside the busy mind? And then just
[42:58] going on like thinking like, is your mind busy? How can you get it to be different? Have you ever
[43:06] thought of yourself as miracle minded? People come in and they're like, oh my god Maria.
[43:14] But then they come back and go, you know, I thought about being miracle. Thank you. Thank you.
[43:21] Joy. It's a light. A bit of optimism is a production of the optimism company, lovingly produced
[43:32] by our team Lindsey Garbenius, Phoebe Bradford, and Devon Johnson. Subscribe wherever you enjoy
[43:38] listening to podcasts, and if you want even more cool stuff, visit SimonCinic.com. Thanks for
[43:44] listening. Take care of yourself, take care of each other.

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