# Revisited: What Dying Teaches Us About Living with Death Doula Alua Arthur

An episode of [A Bit of Optimism](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1515385282), 17 Mar 2026, 45 min.

Audio: https://episode.flightcast.com/qgkdyymtq74i56rq2pzt5g3v.mp3

Team Simon here! While A Bit of Optimism is on a short break, we’re revisiting a few episodes you helped make some of our favorites. We’ll be back with brand-new conversations next week, on March 24th, 2026. In the meantime, we’re bringing back an episode that explores a word most people like to avoid: death. We dance around the subject or use vague euphemisms to not hurt anybody. But what if being open about our deaths meant we could live happier lives? That’s where Alua Arthur comes in. Alua is one of the most prominent death doulas in the country, which means it’s her job to help people die. She offers support to her clients and their families as they embark on their dying journey, tackling everything from financial planning and insurance policy to emotional support and grief. Before this work, Alua was a lawyer, but after a life-changing encounter that forced her to confront mortality in a new way, she shifted her path entirely. Now she has dedicated her career to helping others prepare for the end of life with clarity, compassion, and even a bit of humor. In this conversation, Simon and Alua talk about why our culture struggles to talk honestly about death, what she’s learned from the people she’s accompanied in their final days, and why remembering that life is finite can help us live with more presence, gratitude, and intention. This… is A Bit of Optimism. --------------------------- For more on Alua and her work, check out: https://goingwithgrace.com/ & @GoingwithGrace ---------------------------

## Transcript

[0:00] What is the most interesting secret or story you've ever heard somebody tell you on their deathbed?
[0:04] There's so many secrets.
[0:06] Oh, tell one. What's your favorite? Come on, come on.
[0:09] Um, about the kids. About Mr. Kids.
[0:12] Yeah, other families.
[0:13] Other families. There's so many other families.
[0:16] So many other families.
[0:18] And I think the 23 and me and ancestry.com and all those places, we're about to find a whole lot of families.
[0:23] That's right. It's all coming out.
[0:25] Yeah, nobody's dying with secrets anymore.
[0:27] Let's talk about death, dying, being dead.
[0:34] Those words are so jarring, literally just hearing them make many of a squirm.
[0:40] It's such a morbid conversation who wants to have it.
[0:43] Or maybe we're thinking about it the wrong way.
[0:46] That's where a Lua Arthur comes in.
[0:48] She's flipping the script.
[0:50] She's a New York Times best-selling author and one of the leading death duals.
[0:55] Like a doula helps some people prepare for birth, death doulas help other people navigate
[1:00] life's final chapter with clarity and grace.
[1:04] But for those of us who aren't currently in the process of dying and aren't navigating grief,
[1:10] thinking about death may actually be the best hack to focus on life.
[1:17] This is a bit of optimism.
[1:24] So I'm always fascinated by people's career paths, right?
[1:28] Doctors and lawyers tend to know pretty young that they're going to be a doctoral lawyer
[1:31] because you have to make a decision, you know, pretty young to start going through that
[1:34] amount of schooling, etc.
[1:36] And I have to believe that being a death doula wasn't like your childhood dreams,
[1:42] you weren't helping your teddy bear take their final breaths.
[1:45] I'm so curious how someone finds themselves doing this.
[1:49] It was a sharp right turn.
[1:51] I was a lawyer. I started out on the path of the lawyer.
[1:55] So I did all the schooling and took the bar and started practicing and was not having a good time.
[2:00] It was not working for me. It wasn't a fit.
[2:02] And I also just felt frustrated and still do that.
[2:05] We ask young people to choose their professions so early in their lives, you know, and like
[2:09] commit to something, something with the big financial responsibility of law school up at that
[2:13] as a side. But I was a lawyer and then life came and worked its magic on me and grief worked
[2:19] its magic on me. And here we are practicing death work instead.
[2:22] So did you start in grief work and find yourself to death work?
[2:25] Or do you do you talk about them as that one thing?
[2:28] To me, they're inexperably linked, you know, they belong together.
[2:32] They can be separate though because grief doesn't exist only with death.
[2:35] But, you know, it's like an open marriage where death is married to grief and
[2:40] synagogues with grief. But grief is super polyamorous and goes wherever it wants to.
[2:45] So when talking about death, I can't help but talk about grief, but I mostly talk about it.
[2:48] But I mean, you're, but the way you got in, like what came, what was, what was the chicken,
[2:51] what was the egg? I guess that doesn't help resolve the problem because that's actually a debate.
[2:54] But, you know, in the actual way and thick, the way things worked out, like what happened?
[3:00] Yeah. Well, what happened that you're doing what you're doing now?
[3:03] Okay. So I didn't even know death doula was a thing.
[3:05] It's super thing. So I was practicing law at legal aid.
[3:10] I got really burnt out, absolutely depressed and like a clinical depression.
[3:13] I took a leave of absence where I went to Cuba and I met a young fellow fellow traveler on the bus.
[3:19] We started talking a lot about her life and we started talking about death.
[3:22] She was traveling because she wanted to see the top six places in the world before she died
[3:26] because she had you doing cancer. And so that initial spark was like,
[3:30] oh, wait, hold on a minute. People die. And I've been privileged enough in my life not to have
[3:34] known anybody who died on my grandparents were dead by the time I was at age.
[3:38] So nobody closed me a diet. I hadn't had that experience yet.
[3:42] And I was really fascinated that she was looking at the end of her life or at least contemplating it.
[3:46] So we talked a lot about her relationship to her death.
[3:49] I asked her a lot about her life and what meaning it had and what she'd made of it thus far.
[3:54] And it helped me look at my own life through some lens that I hadn't previously considered.
[3:58] And that lens helped me see that I did not like the life that I was living like it wasn't.
[4:03] It wasn't what I wanted out of my life, you know?
[4:06] So I on the bus was like, well, shoot.
[4:09] If we can talk about this and it can create purpose for people like it did for me during that very
[4:14] brief exchange that we had about our mortality, what was 14 hours? It wasn't brief.
[4:19] But in that one moment of time, then it held so much, it held so much weight for me.
[4:25] And so I started really leaning into that for myself.
[4:28] When I came back from Cuba, my brother-in-law became sick. My older sister's husband,
[4:32] his name was Peter St. John. And I got to journey with him through the last two months of his life
[4:37] really, really closely. And I saw how isolating it is to be dying to be in the system and not have
[4:45] the support there that we needed. You know, there were plenty of doctors.
[4:48] There were plenty of medical folks, but there wasn't somebody just to hold our hearts and to,
[4:53] you know, remind us that it was hard and to offer resources and a kind word and a listening heart.
[5:00] There was nobody like that. And so I really decided that I wanted to do that for other people.
[5:04] So grief came first in the way that I was grieving deeply. I was grieving my brother-in-law,
[5:10] but I was also grieving a system that I didn't feel cared for the people within it.
[5:14] And so grief pushed me into death work ultimately.
[5:17] So the job that you described or the role that you played, I should say, with your brother-in-law,
[5:22] I mean, you were the sister-in-law. Yeah.
[5:24] So you were family sitting by his side as the doctors and everybody came in and through.
[5:31] And I think perhaps the reason that the concept of a death doula is not on the tip of everyone's
[5:35] tongue is because I guess there's an expectation that that's what the family does.
[5:39] Yeah, it's kind of what the family does, but we're also so deeply emotionally entrenched in
[5:44] what's happening that it's hard to pull back. It's hard to take my feelings out of it and be
[5:49] able to show up for the dying person the way that they need to. The death doula,
[5:52] somebody who sits on the outside of the circle of support. Sometimes it's family,
[5:57] but not everybody has a family around. So it could just be, you know, folks that love the person,
[6:02] are their chosen families that are around. And so the doula is kind of the person that sits on
[6:06] the outer wrong, kind of holding everybody else up and holding the whole thing together.
[6:10] There are, there's a number of things that death doulas do that. Family members, I think,
[6:14] don't know how to do or wouldn't even know where to begin. And that's why I found myself with
[6:18] Peter off. And like, how do we do this thing? Is this the thing we should be considering?
[6:22] I wish that there was so much more we'd known at the time. It's that's what it looks a little
[6:26] different. For example, so what was missing when when Peter died that you wished you knew or had been
[6:32] there? I wish somebody had said very clearly to us that he was dying. That didn't happen. It was
[6:37] more that they couldn't treat him anymore. That's what say this is that what may I ask what was it
[6:43] that ultimately caused his death? Yeah, Brickett's lymphoma. Okay. So nobody said he's going to die.
[6:50] They said this is no longer treatable. They've spoken euphemisms to avoid the D word.
[6:55] Everybody danced around it. The palliative care team came in. They would like not and smile
[7:01] slowly when it was clear that something was happening when he was not responding anymore.
[7:05] A plus B equals C, you know, he has an incurable illness. They cannot treat him anymore. He's
[7:11] going to die. But I did that, you know, I did that in my own brain, in my own body. And it was
[7:15] really, really difficult to take in because it was also the unimaginable. And I think anybody who's
[7:20] been in this situation understands when somebody close to you and they're getting close to the end.
[7:25] It's like this can't be it. Like this cannot possibly be it. And so aside from just somebody
[7:30] saying very clearly, hey, it looks like he's dying, they could have helped us find ways to
[7:36] engage my four-year-old niece at the time into into his death. You know, we didn't have
[7:41] support for that properly. Nobody explained what the death rally was, which is something that I
[7:46] noticed in Peter and I've seen many times before and many times since in my work. Nobody
[7:51] explained how we could find certain hospital gowns that closed in the front because he had all
[7:56] these sores on his back or getting him up to change the gowns was difficult. Getting his will in
[8:01] order, trying to figure out what he wanted to do with his cremains. Like there were so many items
[8:06] that I wish that we knew beforehand. What's a death rally? A death rally is often a surge of energy
[8:13] nearing the end of life that often looks like the miracle that people have been waiting for.
[8:18] But in fact, it's a sign that life will soon reach its end. I think it may be the body shedding off
[8:23] the last little bit of life force energy, but the person often starts behaving like they did before.
[8:29] Maybe they're making jokes or asking for food or asking to see certain people. They look
[8:36] a little bit more robust than they have and typically happens right before the person begins to
[8:41] actively die. Do the doctors and the palliative care specialists, are they avoiding the
[8:47] D word because there's some weird stigma? Is the word death or die to aggressive? Because we do,
[8:54] at least in the West, we speak around it. I'm sorry for your father's passing. What happened to
[9:02] your brother-in-law? He's no longer with us. We don't like the D word. We don't say,
[9:08] oh, yeah, he died a bunch of years ago. He's dead. It's a hard consonant, right? It's an
[9:17] aggressive word. Totally. Why is it that even medical professionals are so afraid of using that
[9:24] word? Is it because they've triggered families before and they've just learned over time not to
[9:28] use the word? I think there's a lot of different reasons for it. That may be part of it.
[9:32] Because you don't call yourself an end-of-life doula? No, I don't. Yeah, I don't. There are many that
[9:38] call themselves end-of-life doulas or end-of-life specialists or practitioners. I'm kind of a
[9:42] straight shooter like what you see is what you get and people die. It is a big word one syllable
[9:47] that lands like an anvil. But it really, it holds a lot of truths that many of us seek to avoid.
[9:53] And I think doctors and medical professionals are also human. You know, I think that on some level
[9:58] there isn't enough training in hospitals or training in medical school about dealing with people
[10:03] near and beyond of life. I think that oftentimes folks want to have saved the person. They want
[10:10] the medicine to work and maybe it feels like a failure of some sort. I think as long as we think
[10:14] of death as the opposite of health or we think of death as a failure in some way, the folks that
[10:20] are meant to cure folks will always have a hard time with it. But then also societally, we shy away
[10:25] from it like you were saying. We speak in euphemism about it. Pass away. Somebody lost somebody.
[10:31] One of the times recently somebody said that to me, not in the context of works. I did not have
[10:35] my death to the hat on. But she said she lost someone and I thought like she couldn't find her.
[10:41] I didn't realize she might she died. You know, it's tricky. I wish that we would be a lot more
[10:46] straight about it. I wonder if we're all overly sensitive because we don't want to offend the people
[10:53] we're talking to or is that we're offended by the word. I think we're offended by the word.
[10:57] Are we tiptoeing around a sensitive subject and being overly cautious? It's like a weird end
[11:02] of life political correctness. You know, we're all tiptoeing around for fear of offending somebody.
[11:07] So we go the most sort of euphemistic way. When in reality, if you just say what it is,
[11:13] everybody's actually okay with it. And much better with it in fact, if you just say what it is. Now,
[11:18] I've noticed that sometimes it takes family members or the people close to the person that died
[11:22] a while to come around to it because it is so final. It sounds so final. And yet we I think do
[11:28] everybody a favor when we just call it plainly for what it is. You know, when we speak in euphemisms,
[11:33] we also run the risk of continuing to pass on our death avoidance and our death phobia and culture,
[11:39] particularly when talking to children. There was a guy talking not that long ago who told me that
[11:44] when his grandmother died, they told him that grandma had gone to sleep. He was terrified to sleep
[11:50] for years. He was seven when she died. Terrified to go to sleep because they thought he wouldn't come
[11:54] back either. You know, thereby reinforcing the idea that it's something that we don't talk about,
[11:59] something that we don't address, something that we put over there. We don't say somebody died,
[12:04] we say they went to heaven or they went away for a long time. You won't be seeing her anymore
[12:09] because more confusion than we reiterate death phobia in our culture. It's so interesting,
[12:14] especially when it comes to children, right? You're so right. Because we don't upset the child
[12:18] and yet you can watch cartoons from the fifties, like Bambi. It's wild. And there's death
[12:27] all over these cartoons and like these are for little children and they're
[12:31] and none of them, you know, I don't think anybody would say that a Walt Disney film caused some sort
[12:36] of lifelong trauma. Yeah, but like I cried big grown-up tears at Moana very recently when the
[12:42] grandmother died. Spoiler alert. But we're children are watching these films and they have
[12:49] their own relationship with death and grief and loss either through the films or in their
[12:53] own lives or their grandparents die or their parents die or their siblings like they know the
[12:58] experience and yet adults we try to shield them from it. I'm using air quotes, but they know it.
[13:03] And when we don't address it, it creates a strange cognitive dissonance. It also sends for the
[13:08] message that it's not okay. Whereas it's just a part of the cycle of life, you know, we all are
[13:13] part of the cycle. We all will meet our end at some point. How are you afraid of death? I won't say
[13:18] afraid. I'm curious about it. I'm very curious about it. There are things like if you're on a plane
[13:23] and there's really bad turbulence, you know, do you have fear of death, like fear of dying, you know,
[13:30] or you totally relax and you're like, well, if this is my time, this is my time. I feel more like
[13:34] if it's my time, it's my time, but I've also spent a lot of time thinking about my death and
[13:37] preparing for my mortality, you know, but there are things that still make me a little uncomfortable
[13:42] about it. I am so deeply in love right now and it would, I would really, really, really like
[13:48] to see Elderhood with this man and I think about him dying and it makes me want to cry. So sometimes
[13:54] I fear death will isn't somebody else, you know, I'm maybe not afraid of my own mortality that way.
[14:00] I would love to see Elderhood with him, but also I don't want him to die either. That's a fear of death
[14:05] that's showing its head. Who hires you? Does the family hire you? Does the person dying hire you?
[14:10] Is the hospital hire you? It depends. Never hospital or at least not yet, but often the family members
[14:17] are the circle of support or the person themselves because sometimes we're not there for the person
[14:21] that's dying. Sometimes we're there for the circle of support, like they need an additional hand
[14:26] or they need some information or some comprehensive end of life planning. I also want to be clear
[14:33] that death do has work with anybody who has some recognition of their mortality, which means that
[14:39] when somebody is still healthy, we can help them complete comprehensive end of life plans. So we can
[14:44] help folks think through their end of life plans, think through their fears of death, think through
[14:48] their death avoidance, when they're still healthy and they're not yet looking at the end of their life.
[14:52] It's such a good point, right? Because I think we all know that we're supposed to whether we do or not,
[14:57] you've got to have your will, you've got to have your living will, you know, you have to make your
[15:00] state in order, make sure somebody knows where all the paperwork is, where the bank account
[15:04] numbers are, your insurance policy is good. I mean, no, I know the stuff. As you get older and you
[15:10] sort of reach a middle age, you're like, I gotta do this, you know? And somebody will say to you,
[15:16] like, I just finished my living will, did you, Simon, did you do yours? I'm like, I gotta do it,
[15:20] damn it, you know? And like, you know, because we don't think of about our mortality when we're
[15:24] younger, of course, it's basically mostly financial. It is helping our loved ones be prepared or be,
[15:30] you know, there's insurance policies, for example, to make sure that they're taken care of,
[15:33] et cetera. But none of us think about the emotional care we think of the financial care.
[15:39] Like, you know, people have insurance policies so that their spouses will be taken care after
[15:44] my dime. My kids, you pay the mortgage. But none of us think about they're going to go through
[15:49] fricking hell, emotional awfulness when this happens. I'm going to also have a plan for them,
[15:56] maybe for myself, but at least for them, it's so interesting that death is a financial thought.
[16:04] And we've completely neglect the emotional components to help our family grieve our loss.
[16:10] Yeah. That's an absolute mirror about the capitalistic society that we live in. It shows us
[16:16] where our values lie. What society does it well? Many of them do. I think a lot of societies don't
[16:23] really focus on the financials, but they focus on the community event of it. You know, dying is a
[16:28] it's a social event. It's not a medical one. It's not a financial one. It does trigger a lot
[16:31] of financial responsibilities and conversations, but it's a social event. It's a community event.
[16:37] And there are a lot of places that treated us, such, which is part of the reason why
[16:41] a death dune today's day and age in this society, a Western society seems interesting or strange.
[16:47] But it's a role that has been inhabited since time immemorial because since humans have been alive,
[16:52] humans have been dying. And other humans have been supporting them too. Literally.
[16:56] Literally. And other humans have been there for them. It just seems strange now maybe because we
[17:02] live in these individual pods where, you know, the nuclear family is a center and I am the center
[17:09] of the universe and my life matters and I, I, I, I, I, so I said, I forget about all those around me
[17:15] whose lives will continue after I die, who I would like to take care of in my dying as well,
[17:19] who are going to be taking care of me. One of the things that I find also fascinating about
[17:23] the concept of death and I, you know, I studied anthropology in college and a universal
[17:28] is ceremonial burial that every culture in the entire world, everywhere, big or small,
[17:35] there's ceremonial burial. And when anthropologists go back and look at sort of early bones and,
[17:40] you know, of early homo sapient, like, they're amazed that they find ceremonial burial. Like,
[17:43] it's a thing. And I wonder if that you called dying a community event that the concept of
[17:48] the ceremonial burial is sort of the, the community death doulaing if you will. And to your point,
[17:55] which is the decline in sort of ceremonial anything, you know, we, we, we ship ourselves off to the
[18:00] cities and leave our families far behind that I wonder if the need for a death doula is a very
[18:06] modern construction because we aren't so community less in this modern day and age.
[18:13] I got absolutely agree with you that that role used to be inhabited by a member of the community.
[18:18] There was somebody that the people knew that when the dying is happening, you call them over
[18:22] and they come in support. There are still some cultures and some religions that hold on to those.
[18:26] There's a Chevrolet cadet show within Judaism. They're the folks that you call when the dying
[18:31] has occurred and they prepare the body and there's ritual written into the religion about how to
[18:36] grieve afterward, but it's written into it. So everybody knows that's what you do. But in the absence
[18:41] of culture that dictates that, then what do we do? You know, what we do is that we ship it off to
[18:48] hospitals. People are dying to their own environments, not in the way that they want, not in the way
[18:52] that their whole humanity is being cared for. And then we pass on their money and we don't,
[18:58] we give them three days off for bereavement leave for their grief and we don't give them any time
[19:02] to be with this massive event that is dignity. I really want to talk about living in just a second,
[19:06] but I'm really just so fascinated by this, which is if you think about it when a couple gets pregnant,
[19:12] when someone gets pregnant, there is thought put to how I want to have my baby. Do you want to do
[19:17] natural childbirth? Do you want an epidural? Do you want to be in a tub of water? Like where do you
[19:20] want to be? Do you want to be in a home? Do you want to be in your hospital? Do you want to see
[19:23] section like what are the medical considerations? Like there's lots of thought and how to bring a
[19:28] child into this world. And so little thought about how I would like to leave this world, I've never
[19:34] thought about it. I've never thought about it. Here we are. Now the time to think about it. Now's
[19:39] the time to think about it. Okay, let's talk about living. How did you change how you live your life
[19:42] as a result of this experience? And take me on the journey, which is what changes do you make right
[19:48] after that bus ride in Cuba? So in a very short term before you decided to do the work, how did you
[19:55] start living your life differently? Well, I also took that invitation to start living like I was
[19:59] dying essentially. I was still, I was under a leave of absence at work, but when I came back,
[20:06] I extended that leave of absence a little bit longer because I thought that I need a little bit
[20:09] more time to decide what direction I want to take my life and then I'm glad I did. I applied
[20:13] immediately for a graduate degree program in deaf and spirituality because I thought maybe I
[20:19] wanted to be a therapist and sit and talk to people that were dying. So I started making the changes.
[20:24] I downsize my apartment because I knew I wouldn't be able to afford it anymore given that I wasn't
[20:28] collecting my salary at the rate that I was. I made changes in my own life, but since then so much
[20:34] has changed, you know, not only did I not go back to the practice of law and any capacity and I
[20:39] built a business and a career around supporting people and they're dying. I also think I speak
[20:44] a little bit more clearly about how I feel. I brush up against my vulnerability a lot more often.
[20:52] The idea of individualism seems to be fading in me that I'm more comfortable being needed and
[20:59] needing people in my life because I see how communal our lives are and can be and I want that for
[21:05] myself, but you know, this idea of individualism has us say that we can do everything on our own.
[21:10] I also eat more delicious foods. I'm not as concerned with my weight if we're going to be silly
[21:15] about it. Like I eat whatever I want because this life is short and I want to use my taste buds
[21:20] as long as I've got them and I love french fries and cake so I'm trying to get them all I can.
[21:25] Yes and but if you eat too much french fries and too much cake that day comes a little sooner.
[21:32] Theoretically. Theoretically because I don't know tomorrow could be it and if it is I really hope
[21:37] I had a french fry and also also as I'm going about eating my cake and my french fries at some point
[21:44] I also want some kale and spinach all right like I don't just want that when I eat a little bit of it
[21:48] I satisfy it then I want to eat something else I want to nourish my body because you don't want to
[21:51] you don't have diabetes along the way either that's also really like squats like I like squatting I
[21:56] like muscles I like exercise and so I do that plenty as well. What do you think about the obsession
[22:01] right now of longevity I live in California so everybody's in some sort of you know
[22:04] same cleanse supplement something or other and you ask them the reason why you're doing this and
[22:09] they longevity is the answer they give you I'm curious your your thoughts is it fear of death
[22:14] is that a is that a good thing I think it's death denial at its core I think we live in a highly
[22:20] death avoidant deathful bit culture and that tells you that you take pop enough supplements and you
[22:25] drink enough ladies blood you'll live till 117 but why do you want to live till 117 anyway you know
[22:30] what is it that we're trying to avoid by wanting to live for forever and what are you doing with
[22:35] that extra time that you wouldn't do now with the finite time that you have that's such a great
[22:41] point which is I'm taking all these vitamins and doing all these things and spending hours a day
[22:46] to prolong longevity so that for what it's you know you're not you know it's the equivalent of it's
[22:52] the same mentality of I'm gonna make a lot of money so that I can give to charity later
[22:58] say why not just get to charity now and get to charity later also with what you got yeah start
[23:04] with what you got and none of us know how much time we have you know what I mean like I could live
[23:08] till 104 anyway but I could also tomorrow could be it and if that's the case and why not live my
[23:14] life right now with the fullness that I can while I'm still here what's the youngest person you've
[23:21] you've helped die well I supported the family with their newborn died okay and what's the
[23:27] luxury breath um how about 95 95 so um what have you learned from the people who let and I'm a
[23:41] newborn doesn't help me with my argument here but like somebody who's in their 40s or 50s
[23:45] right so who we would say they've died young right yeah relative to the to the national averages
[23:50] versus somebody who lives way beyond the national averages 80s 90s right have you noticed any
[23:56] patterns in how the older ones have lived their lives what is their attitude to life how have they
[24:03] lived their life that that you can perceive that they have lived longer than everybody else can I
[24:10] tell you a story yeah a client of mine one of my absolute favorites although they're all my favorite
[24:15] so don't tell me but I said this one of my favorite clients miss bobby she was about 95 when she died
[24:21] and in the time that I sat with her she told me all these stories of her life you know about how she
[24:26] was the first black woman to integrate multiple neighborhoods in Los Angeles she was a traveling nurse
[24:32] that they traveled abroad and saw the front rolls in France and so she swear she was the one to
[24:37] bring it to America she chased off lovers with guns a cheating husband with a gun she threw newspapers
[24:45] at nosy neighbors she did a big life while she was here okay near advantage for life I asked her
[24:53] if looking back on any of it made any sense or anything like that and she responded to me you know
[24:57] super husky gravely voice because she's also smoked like packs a day and drank a bunch of whiskey
[25:03] while she was living I think it was cognac actually she drank a lot of cognac and she said first
[25:08] of all none of it made any sense but it was one hell of a ride to me the the indication of the
[25:17] like how people approach their dying is based on how they view their lives themselves you know if I'm
[25:22] spending my whole life resisting my death it's not gonna be one hell of a ride but if I can just
[25:27] sink into it for what it is other miracle it is the joy the benefit of being able to eat food
[25:32] and travel places and meet people and and like be here for the times that I'm here then I think
[25:37] they reach the end feeling like okay that was all right and I noticed that same attitude in the
[25:42] younger folks there was a woman I supported who was about 26 27 who also was like so so joyful she
[25:51] did not want to die young air quotes she didn't want to die young but there she was and she embraced
[25:58] it with with a wisdom that a lot of older people didn't have that I certainly didn't have
[26:03] it even at the time that I got to support her she had she'd enjoyed her life for the time that
[26:08] she was present in it and I think that's what we can all take away from it is to be here
[26:15] it's like it never it never made sense to me why you know people would save their money
[26:20] to go on you know like you see the retirees who go in these incredible world tours that they've
[26:25] been saving up for for 30 40 50 years yeah and I always think when why not just take a small trip
[26:30] every year you know as opposed to the grand tour near the end I think a lot of what we're talking
[26:36] about is gratitude I'll tell you one thing that I find absolutely poetic and beautiful when I ask
[26:40] you what you changed about your life you know after after that bus ride in Cuba I expected you to say
[26:47] well you know now I take more vacations like I expected you to say those kinds of things but you
[26:53] said something more beautiful which is you said I've become very comfortable being needed and being
[26:59] needy like I've been very comfortable needing the help of others and I've been very comfortable
[27:03] feeling needed and I think that is absolutely beautiful which is to recognize that like we're not
[27:10] alone in this and to be open to being needed and needing others is something you appreciate more
[27:19] since you've learned about death significantly significantly more I see how as we approach our
[27:27] dying those that are resistant to the support of others those that are so afraid to be vulnerable
[27:33] that are afraid to have a need are the ones that tend to struggle because they're still trying
[27:38] to do it all by themselves there's a client that I got to be with who big burly guy who in his dying
[27:47] in his illness got so thin and frail and he was a classic you know pulled himself up by his
[27:53] bootstraps and the American success story came from nothing he made everything and in his dying
[27:59] struggled so much with the fact that he could no longer stand on his own or pull his pants up by
[28:04] himself he was angry he was frustrated he it was breaking him he couldn't surrender into being
[28:12] vulnerable and that's not something that I want for myself I also see how all of us become vulnerable
[28:18] you know dying is probably one of the most vulnerable acts we'll ever undertake it's certainly one
[28:22] of the most intimate everything my whole life is gonna be on display for other people somebody's
[28:27] gonna go through my software and that one drawer by the side of the bed that I do not want my mom
[28:30] to see before anybody else goes you know what I mean that one drawer like everything's gonna be
[28:36] on display my body's gonna be cold and naked on a slab at some point it's vulnerable it's very
[28:42] vulnerable if I'm ill even more vulnerable why not practice it a bit now do you cry all the time
[28:50] when your clients die all the time all the time I go close to them who helps you manage that grief
[28:57] my partner my friends the other desk do lives in my life the grief therapists in my life
[29:02] everybody the cashier CVS if they ask me how I'm doing that day they ask the wrong question and
[29:07] they catch me at the wrong time or the right time you've been there for a lot of final words what
[29:12] is some of the best final words that you've heard that have left you like yes thank you I wish
[29:18] they were but it's more like yes or no or like there's not that much energy to come up with
[29:25] something poetic you know no I haven't heard anything that's been like wow I think that's
[29:31] her stuff with the movies my grandmother died when she was about 95 or 96 she she had a weird
[29:36] relationship with death and you know I remember I'd visit her in London she was already in a home
[29:40] because her her body had not worked like it used to her mind was fine right until the end
[29:45] and it was caused her endless frustration because she was an adventurous woman and she couldn't
[29:49] really do the stuff she wanted to do so she was in a home and I would like visit her in London
[29:54] and I'd leave I say well I'll see you you know next year when I'm back in London and she'd
[29:58] scream out maybe not you know like she's just this weird relationship with death very comfortable
[30:02] with it when she died some of the nurses from the from the home came which is very unusual
[30:08] because they're around death all the time they don't go to funerals you know it's part of the job
[30:13] but a few of them came to her funeral which I found really touching and the one who is with her when
[30:18] she died she we are standing next to the grave with her and I said I have to ask you did she have any
[30:25] last words and she said yeah she she was sitting in bed and she said to me I think I'll have
[30:34] another pillow and she left to get another pillow and she'd come back and she died and you know
[30:42] I kind of love that you know I kind of love that me too I think I'll have another pillow yeah
[30:48] and I think she was telling her to leave I think she knew she and I think she wanted to be alone
[30:52] um but those are like the best the best final ways I've ever heard that happens often
[30:59] when people want to be alone I'm so I'm so touched at that nurse not only remember but share that
[31:05] with you um it is beautiful and I also just love the idea that she was like oh let me get a
[31:10] little bit more comfortable with psych you know I think she being English and polite yeah
[31:17] what is psych could you could you get out for a moment please I'd like to die it happens a lot
[31:22] you know and I often talk to folks that are experiencing some grief or sadness because they stepped
[31:29] out of the room because either the person dying needed something or they stepped out to get a
[31:34] phone call or to go to the bathroom or so while they were gone their person died yeah they waited
[31:39] for their moment right they waited for the moment they wait for the moment they wait for the moment
[31:44] what is the most interesting secret or story you've ever heard somebody tell you on their deathbed
[31:49] there's so many secrets I'll tell one there are all types of secrets family secrets about
[31:55] mistresses and babies and kids and people who died under mysterious circumstances
[32:02] who juicy stuff with a confessions or they're more like you want to know something
[32:07] both there's a lot of you want to know something because I'm not going to die with this secret
[32:13] or this is so juicy what's your favorite come on come on um about the kids about Mr. Kids
[32:19] yeah other families other families there's so many other families so many other families
[32:26] and I think the 23 and me and ancestry.com and all those places we're about to find out a whole lot
[32:30] of families that's right okay it's all coming out yeah they don't have to be that confesses like
[32:35] they're gonna that drawer next to your underwear drawer that's coming out and the 23 and
[32:40] me that you have two other families look everything we're talking about obviously is partially
[32:48] about planning for death but it really is about a celebration of life and you talked about the 26
[32:52] year old who just lived in gratitude you know and the 96 year old 95 year old who lived in gratitude
[32:57] for the wild ride and whatever time you have make it a make it something that you'll be grateful for
[33:02] when when your time is up whether it's a short time or a long time right but we speak in these
[33:08] faux philosophical like every day is a blessing and you know count your luck and you know like we
[33:13] say nonsense like this all the time the only time we really really really appreciate that life
[33:18] is short and the only time we really really appreciate that how stupid most of our problems are
[33:23] is when we or someone close to us suffers some sort of real awful tragedy whether it is a cancer
[33:29] diagnosis or natural disaster and then we sort of all sit around and take account you know something
[33:36] did you hear you know Stanley has terminal cancer you know and you're like oh it really makes
[33:41] you want to appreciate every day we say things like that and by the way we mean it you know every
[33:46] lesson I've learned about the value of life and the shortness of life blah blah blah in the
[33:50] fragility of life I've always for about a day maybe a week at most lived a better life and and
[33:57] then I forget and I go back to the go back to normal and a is that okay and if not how do we stay
[34:09] aware how do we you know without having to suffer tragedy regularly to remind us or be surrounded by
[34:16] tragedy around us to remind us how do we find joy to leave how do we live a life of gratitude and
[34:22] joy and make joyful decisions more often on a just a regular normal day well I think that's part
[34:29] of the beauty is in the question is that these regular normal days are where the magic lies you know
[34:36] the magic is absolutely in the mundane it's not just in the tragedy and it's also not just in those
[34:41] perfect days where the concert tickets to your favorite artists are half off and you get like the
[34:46] last ones or you're at the concert that's the matter there's magic in both those things but it's
[34:51] in the every single day where I can be reminded I can remember what a wild miracle it is that I get
[35:01] to touch and look at you through these eyes through a computer no less and speak I am sending
[35:09] air into my diet into my lungs sending it up push my diaphragm out through these vocal chords to
[35:14] noises random noises that somehow you understand and are optimizing in your own brain and making
[35:20] some sense of and causing a reaction in you and then thinking of the same thing then you'll do
[35:24] the same thing and send it right back that is a miracle and that's happening trillions of times
[35:28] a day and yet we get so caught up in the little the little annoyances of life you know taxes
[35:34] of big annoyance or like traffic or not having the particular type of peanut butter I wanted the
[35:40] grocery store forgetting that peanut butter itself is a miracle like being alive is an absolute
[35:46] utter gift it's an utter gift when I can remember that when I can remember that it allows me to be
[35:51] more like present I was talking a bit about gratitude when I was talking about summer of that
[35:56] client I was telling you about the young one but also a lot more about presence like she had a way of
[36:02] just zoning out and noticing raindrops noticing the pattern as the raindrops came down the window
[36:09] that may have been because she was approaching her end and she was very present with her mortality
[36:13] and could think wow I won't be seeing this much longer that gift is available to all of us
[36:18] every single moment I don't know when my end will be at all at all I mean like you're already
[36:26] making me feel bad right because and I don't mean that this in a bad way but like I was snipping
[36:30] this morning I was annoyed by something at lunchtime you know and it's so all of it was stupid yeah
[36:41] and the reality is I don't care like if I really if you really push me I don't really care
[36:47] and so what I'm grappling with in my mind is like I know everything we've been talking about like
[36:53] and I think everybody knows everything we've been talking about you know like just to look around
[36:58] and be grateful for as you said because I think we do sort of gratitude practice I think most
[37:02] of us who've tried a gratitude practice you run out of things real quick like you have an amazing
[37:08] vehicle so grateful for that vacation and that dinner and by like the third or fourth or fifth day
[37:13] or second or third week of this you're like I'm grateful for my family again like I was yesterday
[37:21] grateful for I guess I'm safe at home again I said then I think I said that yesterday but your
[37:27] point is is you could say the same thing every single day and that's good absolutely and get get my
[37:33] newt with it you know you're safe for the home what about the roof it doesn't have any leaks you know
[37:39] what about the fridge and the food that's in it about the ability to chew what about teeth
[37:44] about saliva what about digestive enzymes like we can get really really my newt with it and when
[37:48] I'm thinking about the minute is where the magic is don't get me wrong there's a lot of suffering
[37:54] also in the world there's so much suffering and yet when I can zoom out and think about
[38:00] what this life is for me at this moment it allows me to snap back into it I think the most
[38:05] effective practice of gratitude for this life itself is a reminder that I'm going to die
[38:13] when I can run myself of that it pulls me right back from the annoyances and the minor grievances
[38:23] and the frustrations and at the same time it allows me to be with them in a way that allows
[38:28] them to be so because I'm also human and to be human is also to be like a little annoyed sometimes
[38:33] it makes me like not be so it's like tight about the emails that I send you know what I mean
[38:37] so I didn't get all the wording right well I'm gonna die but also you're gonna die you know and so
[38:43] when I'm thinking about that I don't just hit the email on like the really nasty thing I don't
[38:47] hit send really easily when I'm standing and I'm being a jerk in line someplace and somebody
[38:52] else is having a bad day I think about their death and it allows me to be a lot more compassionate
[38:57] toward them one day whatever it is that's troubling them it's going to be a thing of the past
[39:00] all of their history all their doubt all their fear all their regret that's going to die too
[39:05] it allows me to like soften toward them it allows me to like hold my fellow human for being a human
[39:11] to have like hard days to be angry about things to one day be really vulnerable to be
[39:16] laying there like a baby bird like it allows me to soften oh I love that which is some I'm
[39:21] standing in line that you know the coffee shop in the person front of me is having a connection
[39:26] because they gave them oatmeal instead of you know almond milk to instead of being like chill out
[39:31] or it's just a small set to say you're gonna die and this won't matter at all and it does it
[39:38] really sort of like gives you a little compassion for somebody else's troubles a lot of compassion
[39:44] I don't think that any society that reveres death any individual that reveres death can also hold
[39:49] any of the systems that keep us disconnected from each other it's impossible because when I'm
[39:53] revering death I'm honoring the individual for their entire life through its totality of it
[39:58] like I can't do that and also walk down the street across all the people that are laying there
[40:05] and not think twice about it you know or hold up transphobia like it's impossible you can't
[40:10] for people who say grace before a meal I think that everyone should learn to say grace even if
[40:15] you're not religious or that's not in your in that is not associated with the religion that you
[40:21] practice because I think sometimes when I've sat around a table with friends who say grace
[40:26] sometimes I sort of like giggle to myself like it's a I always think of it it has to be this big
[40:30] religious thing and some of it's funny and silly you know and I think it's good I think I think the
[40:38] more funny and silly it can be the more genuine it is it's a little gratitude practice you know
[40:45] thanks for this meal thanks for having the friends and family around the table thanks for
[40:50] the nice weather I think I think that's a way to do it which is to build it into the to build it
[40:55] into the routine of life you know say thank you when you're brushing your teeth for your teeth
[41:00] every single morning that would be great thank you when you lose your teeth say thank you for your
[41:05] gums yeah thank you for having had teeth thank you for having had teeth yeah thank you for having
[41:10] the whole day and grateful I had to choose yeah lucky me lucky me lucky me lucky me I really
[41:18] partial to the concept of grace overall I think I think of grace is like the basket that gets to
[41:25] hold all of us in our lives and also in our death I named my company going with grace for that reason
[41:31] that if we can like go along in our lives but also into our deaths with grace that feels like a
[41:37] high bar but it's also so available immediately for all of us at any turn and I swear that wasn't a
[41:43] plant I actually didn't know the name of your company that was spontaneous but yes it is grace to
[41:52] have grace to go with grace and and how do you when you name the company to go with grace how did
[41:57] you define grace why grace well I actually I don't know all right people often think my name is
[42:03] grace I think that's just so funny I mean so not graceful but that's but that's funny to go with
[42:08] grace it's like I'm grace and I'll go with you and I'll come along with you all right I don't
[42:15] know that I ever had a solid definition what grace could be I grew up in evangelical I no longer
[42:19] practice that particular faith tradition but the concepts of grace was through all of my upbringing
[42:24] my religious upbringing and I started to think of grace as allowing things to be as they are
[42:30] you know to to be with the gratitude for what is for that thing that holds us through everything
[42:37] that we journey through and so going with grace like going into life but also into death with grace
[42:42] that would be really pretty cool if we could and we can by the way even though I mean we're both
[42:48] anti euphemisms and we're both pro just like just say what it is because everybody knows everybody
[42:52] knows they died just say they died right but let's be honest the best euphemism I've heard is going
[42:58] with grace I win yeah I mean it's a really good euphemism it's really good we'll take it we'll
[43:05] take it oh it's actually a very cheery conversation it's a very beautiful conclusions here grace
[43:13] presence gratitude my favorite which is getting comfortable with feeling
[43:21] needed and needing others all lessons that intellectually we all already know and I think to be
[43:27] reminded of of the fragility and temporariness of it all is one mechanism and I have to believe
[43:34] you know this but your life seems to help us feel inspired on two levels tactically the people
[43:42] you're holding their hand and working with them you know as they're coming to the end and their
[43:45] families and then talking about it talking about it with me and writing about it and Ted talks and
[43:50] things like that that you've that you've offered to the world you know helps us all greatly benefit from
[43:58] the gifts that your dying clients have given you to pass on to us I'm the luckiest person in the world
[44:03] I feel so grateful to be constantly in relationship with my mortality in such a way that
[44:10] it has allowed me to create a life that feels really good that ultimately I can feel
[44:14] comfortable leaving at some point where I can live in service where I can wear all the wild colors
[44:20] I want to work because I don't care because I'm gonna die where I can just be myself while I'm
[44:24] moving bad that to me is the greatest gift that I think this work has been able to give me and
[44:30] I just hope to pass a little bit of it on well thanks for letting me be a part of that journey
[44:35] with you thank you such a delight yay so and so bad right just death talk that's all it's just
[44:43] death talk that's all I mean that's what it is a bit of optimism is a production of the optimism
[44:49] company lovingly produced by our team Lindsey Garbenius Phoebe Bradford and Devon Johnson
[44:56] subscribe wherever you enjoy listening to podcasts and if you want even more cool stuff
[45:00] visit simonsinac.com thanks for listening take care of yourself take care of each other

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