# Self-Compassion Isn't Settling: 5 Experts on the Real Science | Sarah Ann Macklin

An episode of [Live Well Be Well with Sarah Ann Macklin | Health, Lifestyle, Nutrition](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1508380100), 13 May 2026, 43 min.

Audio: https://anchor.fm/s/1033d1554/podcast/play/119910101/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2026-4-13%2F424057614-44100-2-dd2517242aa01.mp3

Exciting news - pre-order my debut book https://linktr.ee/HealthySBTH?utm_source=linktree_profile_share Most of us are far kinder to strangers than we are to ourselves. We offer warmth, patience, and understanding to everyone around us, and yet when we struggle, we reach for the harshest possible voice. Why is that? And more importantly, what can we do about it? This week on Live Well Be Well, we are exploring the profound and life-changing power of self-compassion, bringing together five extraordinary voices: - Dr. Kristen Neff, whose 20 years of research built the scientific foundation of self-kindness; - Professor Paul Gilbert, founder of Compassion-Focused Therapy; - Philosopher and author Alain de Botton; - Bestselling author Oliver Burkeman; - and gut health physician Dr. Will Bulsiewicz. We dive deep into the biological and psychological reasons why we fight ourselves, and how shifting from a "threat" mindset to one of "care" can fundamentally change our health. Here’s what we explore together: - The Three Pillars of Self-Compassion: Dr. Kristen Neff explains why you need kindness, mindfulness, and a sense of shared humanity to truly heal. - Hacking the Nervous System: Professor Paul Gilbert discusses how to move from a "fight, flight, or freeze" response into a "tend and befriend" state. - The Origins of the Inner Critic: Alain de Botton reveals how we internalize the voices of authority from our past and how to start a "goodbye ceremony" to those that no longer serve us. Love, Sarah Ann 💛 *** This episode is sponsored by: DIOME: Rest deeper. Stay grounded. Rested is available now and Grounded lands later this month. 👉 Get 20% off with code SARAH20 at DIOME.CO NOWATCH: The compassionate health tracker Connecting body and mind with unique stress recovery insights so you can live fully today 15% off with code LWBW15 at https://nowatch.com/ *** The Great British Veg Out How to support your gut, energy, and hormones by eating more — not less. 👉 https://sarahmacklin.substack.com/p/the-great-british-veg-out Reset Your Health If your body feels off after stress, travel, or burnout — this is where to start. 👉 https://sarahmacklin.substack.com/s/reset-your-health-in-30-days 👉 Practical beats perfect. Here’s a free 5-recipe PDF I use to support energy and stress during busy weeks. https://open.substack.com/pub/sarahmacklin/p/download-your-free-5-recipes-to-relieve 👉 If this resonates, you can join the thousands who read The Compassionate Cure each week. https://sarahmacklin.substack.com/ *** Let’s be friends! 📷 Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sarahannmacklin/ 📹 Subscribe:http://www.youtube.com/@livewellbewellsarah 🐦 Twitter: https://x.com/SarahAnnMacklin 📱 TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@livewellbewellpodcast *** If You Enjoyed This Episode, You Might Also Like: The #1 BETTER HEALTH Technique You Never Knew Existed! Dr Kristin Neff https://youtu.be/jKq069w4rjI *** Sign up to Sarah’s Compassionate Cure newsletter: Science Simplified, Health Humanised. Join thousands in exploring actionable insights that prioritise compassion, clarity, and real-life impact. https://sarahmacklin.substack.com/ *** Highlights00:00:00 Intro 00:01:13 Dr. Kristen Neff: The three elements of self-compassion 00:04:38 Why our nervous system defaults to self-criticism 00:07:00 The "What would I say to a friend?" reframe 00:10:00 Why self-compassion is a more effective motivator than criticism 00:12:02 Alain de Botton: the inner critical voice and where it comes from 00:14:43 Why some believe harsh self-talk drives them forward 00:18:01 Oliver Burkeman: a personal journey through self-compassion 00:22:25 How childhood patterns shape the way we treat ourselves 00:26:17 The missing step in optimization and productivity culture 00:29:06 Paul Gilbert: compassionate self vs the compassionate mind 00:32:34 Dr. Will Bulsiewicz: gut health is about far more than food

## Transcript

[0:00] Today is a special episode. It's self compassion.
[0:03] In this mash up I've bought some of the most brilliant minds
[0:08] together and I've had the privilege for sitting with
[0:10] Doctor Kirsten Neff who is the godmother of Self compassion.
[0:13] What is self compassion in the kind of scientific definition?
[0:17] So there's the kindness and also mindfulness sense of shared
[0:21] humanity. When we are personally
[0:23] threatened, we go into fight, fight or freeze.
[0:25] Alan de Botten from the School of Life.
[0:28] The way we speak to ourselves is largely to do with having
[0:32] incorporated the voice of somebody else.
[0:34] Think of the number of books that don't get written because
[0:36] we are acutely sensitive to criticism.
[0:39] Best selling author Oliver Berkman.
[0:41] It was about productivity, perfectionism, being OK with
[0:44] that. I had to sort of hold the rest
[0:46] of the world at Bay. For me, it propelled the word
[0:48] let go. It's all wrapped up into the
[0:51] optimization, longevity, productivity cultures.
[0:55] The UK's self compassion expert, Professor Paul Gilbert.
[0:59] You talk a lot about the compassionate self versus the
[1:02] compassionate mind. You can train at it and you can
[1:04] get better at it. And Doctor William Bolswich, who
[1:07] is a gastroenterologist but has such a deep connection with this
[1:10] topic. The health isn't just what you
[1:12] eat. My best healing was not just
[1:14] changing my diet. I have the healthiest diet in
[1:17] the world but I was still hospitalised.
[1:19] And I've woven through moments that I think helped tell the
[1:22] fullest story of self compassion and what it really is and why we
[1:26] might even resist it, but what comes possible when we finally
[1:29] stop resisting it? I hate this episode.
[1:31] Gives you some empowerment and maybe just a different lens to
[1:35] look through. I've wanted to do this for a
[1:39] very long time and actually May is Mental Health Awareness
[1:42] Month, so it feels like the perfect time to bring this to
[1:45] you now. I've had so many different
[1:48] amazing, incredible people on the show and it's always come
[1:53] back to a really interesting topic that has made me explore
[1:57] this myself so much more, especially within the last few
[2:02] years. Now this might resonate to some
[2:05] of you, it might feel really foreign to others of you, but
[2:08] it's self compassion. Now I know what some of you
[2:10] might be thinking. Self compassion feels soft,
[2:13] feels like a nice idea, like what maybe could be a
[2:16] motivational poster. But let me stop you there.
[2:20] Because sometimes trying to optimize our life is actually
[2:23] doing the opposite. It's not actually the health
[2:26] encouragement that we need. And what I've discovered and
[2:29] what's really blown my mind from research is that self compassion
[2:33] is not soft at all. It's actually one of the most
[2:36] robust tools we have to support our mind and body and actually
[2:41] move us further into the goals that we want.
[2:44] Why is this even important? Well, we're living in a Wellness
[2:48] industry that is predicted to be $8.5 trillion by next year,
[2:53] telling us all the things that we need to do to improve our
[2:56] health. But sitting silently underneath
[2:59] that is US. And that's the missing piece.
[3:03] And that is exactly what this episode is about.
[3:06] So whether you're brand new to this entire idea, which I hope
[3:09] you're not, if you've been listening to me, I hope this
[3:12] episode gives you some empowerment and maybe just a
[3:15] different lens to look through. Let's go.
[3:18] For the last two years, I have kept a secret from you.
[3:21] And it's this, it's my new book. Healthy shouldn't be this hard.
[3:25] And I think it is a problem that we are all feeling.
[3:28] And I was feeling it so much that I wrote a book on it.
[3:31] Now, if you've been a guest of this podcast for a while, you
[3:34] know that I am all about kindness, self compassion.
[3:37] But when I dug into the research of this, my mind exploded.
[3:42] The connection between the mind and body is so integral.
[3:45] But we completely miss out on all the conversations on health,
[3:49] on how we speak to ourselves. And that is such a driving
[3:52] factor on how our food responds to what we eat, to the choices.
[3:56] That we make and we are so overwhelmed right now in the
[3:59] $8.5 trillion industry that is the Wellness industry, which is
[4:03] predicted to be by 2027. So if you need a helping hand,
[4:08] if you want a new way to live. And be well and buy my new book
[4:12] Healthy. Shouldn't be this hard out on
[4:14] May the 28th but you can pre. Order it now, I'll pop the link
[4:19] below in the show notes and I would love if you could support
[4:22] me on this and I honestly think it will support you too.
[4:25] Doctor Kirsten Neff is one of the world's leading researchers
[4:29] on self compassion. She wrote a whole book on it,
[4:31] and she's been studying it for years.
[4:33] I wanted to start here because before we get into the practice
[4:37] of what even self compassion is, we really need to understand
[4:40] what self compassion is and why it's so much harder than it
[4:44] sounds. What is self compassion in the
[4:46] kind of scientific definition? Right, OK, so if you just think
[4:52] from the Latin roots of the word compassion, passion means to
[4:55] suffer come as with. So it's basically how do we show
[4:59] up for suffering? And normally we think of that
[5:01] for other people's suffering. You know, when other people are
[5:04] going through a hard time or struggling in some way, can we
[5:07] be there for them? Are we supportive?
[5:08] Are we kind? Are we warm?
[5:10] And so self compassion is, is simply how do we show up for our
[5:14] own suffering again, whether that's mental, emotional, or
[5:17] even physical. Are we warm?
[5:20] Are we supportive? Are we caring toward ourselves?
[5:22] Or, which is actually often the case, are we cold?
[5:25] Are we harsh? Are we judgmental?
[5:28] And so, you know, that's the easy way to think about what
[5:31] self compassion is. There is a more scientific
[5:35] operational definition that I use because over 20 years ago I
[5:40] wanted to do research on self compassion and I knew I'd have
[5:43] to create a scale to measure it. And they knew just saying
[5:46] something like how do you show up for yourself?
[5:48] It's not precise enough for science.
[5:51] And I realized there are actually three elements to self
[5:54] compassion. So there's the kindness, which
[5:57] is kind of the most obvious. Also mindfulness.
[6:01] So mindfulness is the ability to be present with what is kind of
[6:05] to make some space for it without just fighting it or
[6:08] ignoring it. And we can't show up for
[6:11] ourselves and our pain if we're either stiff upper lipping it,
[6:14] you know, it's not a problem. And the Brits have a problem
[6:17] with that. Not a problem.
[6:18] I'll just soldier on. You know, you can't be self
[6:21] compassionate if you ignore the fact that you're struggling and
[6:23] need help. On the other hand, if you're
[6:26] lost in it, if you like you're drowning in it, wallowing in,
[6:30] you know, your pain and you can't think, see anything else,
[6:32] then you also can't help yourself.
[6:34] So mindfulness gives you that ability to kind of be with
[6:37] yourself when you're struggling with some space and distance,
[6:40] but also some connection. And then third element really,
[6:44] really important is a sense of humanity, a sense of shared
[6:47] humanity. This is what makes compassion
[6:51] different than pity. So, you know, if I said to you,
[6:55] oh, Sarah, I really pity you, you're going to be, you're not
[6:58] going to like that because that means I'm looking down on you.
[7:01] But if I say, hey, I've been there.
[7:03] I, I can really relate to what you're feeling.
[7:06] You're going to like that. That's compassion because it's
[7:08] saying I'm a human being. You're a human being.
[7:10] This happens to human beings. So it's the same thing with self
[7:13] compassion. What differentiates it from self
[7:16] pity? It's not woe is me for me.
[7:18] It's like, hey, I'm a human being, I'm imperfect, you know,
[7:21] I'm living imperfect life. I'm doing the best I can.
[7:24] And so those three elements together is what we measure in
[7:28] the self compassion scale and which is really the foundation
[7:31] of the research. I think like hearing that people
[7:35] go, yeah, that makes sense. But then I had this moment when
[7:40] I remember first coming across your research and I thought, why
[7:44] am I finding it so hard to connect to self compassionate?
[7:47] What is it that is that? I understand that being nicer to
[7:50] myself, I'm probably going to have a better outcome, but why
[7:53] am I struggling to connect? And I think we live in a society
[7:56] where this isn't the norm. And I wonder over all of these
[8:00] years, what have you found out on why people don't
[8:04] automatically go to this response and how they handle
[8:07] situations? Yeah, so they're actually two
[8:10] big reasons. So, you know, we shouldn't beat
[8:12] ourselves up because we beat ourselves up.
[8:14] It's actually natural, believe it or not.
[8:16] So 1 is just how the nervous system works.
[8:19] So when we are personally threatened, and of course if we
[8:23] make a mistake or fail or something difficult happens, we
[8:25] feel threatened. So we go into fight, fight or
[8:28] freeze. It's the most instinctual
[8:30] response that's linked to our sympathetic nervous system.
[8:33] And So what happens when we feel threatened?
[8:35] We either, we try to fight the problem, but of course that the
[8:38] problem is ourself. We try to fight ourself with
[8:40] criticism. It's kind of that like, you
[8:42] know, like this, this approach, thinking somehow it'll keep us
[8:45] safe if we just fight the issue or we flee into a sense of shame
[8:49] and isolation. Kind of like evolutionarily, if
[8:52] we pissed off the group, they might come after us.
[8:54] So it's that that desire to kind of hang our head in shame is
[8:58] also natural. Or we freeze and we get stuck.
[9:01] It's kind of like we're deer in the headlights.
[9:03] Well, maybe if I just don't move, the problem will go away.
[9:06] Now when your good friend fails or makes a mistake, you aren't
[9:10] so personally threatened. So instead of the the fight,
[9:13] flight or free system kicking in, another system which evolved
[9:17] to keep us safe, which is called the tend and befriend system
[9:19] kicks in. This is also called the
[9:21] mammalian caregiving response. So, you know, evolutionarily
[9:26] with, with our offspring or group members, it feels natural
[9:29] to care for them, to, to, to be there for them, to help and
[9:32] support them. But again, the system really
[9:35] evolved for other people. So we do have to do a little bit
[9:38] of a hack. We have to hack into the system
[9:40] that evolved to care for others and use it with ourselves.
[9:44] The good news is it can be done, but it's not our first instinct.
[9:48] So that's partly it. And then you add on to that
[9:51] culture, I mean, culture tells us we should be self sacrifice
[9:55] it we should put other people first.
[9:56] We don't want to be like lazy or self indulgent or selfish or
[10:00] narcissistic. We confuse all these really.
[10:03] There are a lot of negative self focused States and we confuse
[10:06] them with self compassion, which is the healthy way of being with
[10:09] ourself. So, you know, evolution and
[10:11] culture, it's not surprising that it's not the first instinct
[10:15] that we have. So that's really interesting.
[10:19] It's kind of A2 fold because I find it or I did find it much
[10:23] easier to be compassionate to others, but I would find that
[10:26] much harder to redirect into myself.
[10:29] So that's something that I really found, something that
[10:31] I've found that's helped me when I try to get to those stressful
[10:34] situations. As I say to myself, what would I
[10:37] say to a friend, because that automatically puts me into a
[10:41] response of how would I treat somebody else in this position
[10:44] who I obviously seem to love and care very dearly and try to give
[10:49] that self, that love back to me. And I love that you mentioned
[10:53] about a bit of narcissism and and selfishness, because I think
[10:56] that's something that people can feel very scared of trying to
[11:00] connect to self compassion, that they're going to become very
[11:02] selfish, that people are going to think they're very self
[11:04] indulgent. And it becomes kind of a nuanced
[11:08] area. So for any of the the self
[11:10] critical people out there that are listening to this thinking,
[11:13] well, if I become self compassionate, I'm going to
[11:15] learn that so far and I'm going to do absolutely nothing.
[11:18] What would you say to them? Because I'm sure you've had to
[11:20] say this a lot to convince people.
[11:23] Yeah, so, so there are there are about four or five really main
[11:27] myths. The thing about that it being
[11:30] selfish. So This is why the common
[11:32] humanity element is so important for to self compassionate and
[11:36] why don't call it self love. I mean, self love is important,
[11:40] but a narcissist may have self love.
[11:43] So it's, it's really about framing yourself as an imperfect
[11:46] human being like all other imperfect human beings, not
[11:50] expecting yourself to be superhuman, you know, but also
[11:53] not seeing yourself as special and above average either, right.
[11:56] So we're all human beings, we're all imperfect, we're all doing
[11:59] the best we can. And so we're really just, it's a
[12:04] very humble agenda. We're just including ourselves
[12:06] in the circle of compassion. And when when compassion flows
[12:10] inward, it's actually means we have more resources to flow
[12:13] outward for other people. So it's not selfish at all.
[12:16] Quite the opposite. For instance, it reduces
[12:18] burnout. And you know, it allows you to
[12:21] be a better friend or better partner or better parent.
[12:24] So that one's a myth. Another one is that it's self
[12:28] indulgent, which basically means you're just going to give
[12:31] yourself pleasure, you know, give yourself a break, be nice
[12:33] to yourself. Maybe, you know, eat whatever
[12:36] you want because if it tastes good, who cares if it's healthy
[12:38] for you or, you know, just like take a break.
[12:41] Don't go into work or don't get that degree because you know,
[12:45] people think self indulgence is just giving yourself pleasure.
[12:49] But of course, just like a parent, an indulgent parent is
[12:53] not a compassionate parent. A compassionate parent says to
[12:56] their kid, you got to do this. No, it's not fun and it's going
[12:59] to be hard, but it's important that you do this to learn and
[13:02] grow and be healthy. And it's because I care about
[13:05] you that I'm going to push you a little bit harder than maybe
[13:07] even you're comfortable with. So that's the exact same thing
[13:10] with ourselves. We aren't self indulgent because
[13:12] that causes this harm and we do what's healthy for us, which is
[13:17] reflected in how we take care of our bodies of how we spend our
[13:21] time. You know, sometimes it means
[13:23] doing something a little uncomfortable because it's good
[13:25] for us. And so that's related to, but
[13:28] not exactly the same as as motivation.
[13:31] So motivation is actually, our research shows that's the number
[13:34] one block to self compassion. And that's because self
[13:39] criticism kind of works as a motivator.
[13:42] Let's face it, A lot of people have gotten through a Graduate
[13:45] School or done something really hard just by being so hard on
[13:48] themselves that they, it's so uncomfortable not to reach their
[13:52] goal because they, you know, they're going to slam themselves
[13:54] so much that they do it. So it's kind of like, imagine a
[13:57] really harsh teacher who's really putative to their kids.
[14:02] Yeah, those kids, because they're scared of the teacher,
[14:04] they probably will study a little bit more and it may help
[14:07] somewhat for them to work and achieve, but there's going to be
[14:10] a lot of negative consequences to being so harsh.
[14:13] For instance, those kids may lose faith in themselves and may
[14:16] undermine their confidence. And our confidence is a real
[14:19] important predictor of success. It may create performance
[14:22] anxiety. So if you're so worried that
[14:24] someone's going to yell at you, whether it's your teacher or
[14:26] coach or yourself, it's going to create all this extra anxiety
[14:30] that's actually going to just detract from your ability to do
[14:33] your best. The most important reason why
[14:35] it's actually not so effective in the long run is it undermine.
[14:39] It undermines our ability to learn from our failures.
[14:42] I mean, it's a truism that's true.
[14:45] Failure is our best teacher. That's how we learn.
[14:48] We fail. We say, oh, it didn't work so
[14:50] well, what can I do better next time?
[14:53] And that's how we learn and grow.
[14:55] What happens if you just shame yourself when you fail?
[14:58] You can't think about how much you know.
[15:00] Why did you learn from this? Because you're just so full of
[15:03] shame and you want to hang your head and go off into a corner.
[15:06] So the research is very, very clear on this.
[15:09] So self compassion is a more effective motivator than
[15:11] criticism. It enables, it reduces our
[15:14] performance anxiety, it gives us more self-confidence and it
[15:18] allows us to learn from our mistakes, which actually in the
[15:21] long run, increases our ability to perform at our best.
[15:25] This man, Alan Devosen, brings something very different to this
[15:29] conversation. He brings a philosophical lens
[15:33] because one of the questions I kept coming back to is why are
[15:37] we so much kinder to strangers than we are to ourselves?
[15:41] And I think you're going to like his answer.
[15:44] How important do you think self compassion is for our mental
[15:46] health? Look, I think what we mean by
[15:50] self compassion is an ability to interpret one's own flaws,
[15:57] mistakes, you know, weaker sides with the kind of kindness that
[16:03] we would give to a friend, even frankly, a stranger.
[16:07] And and you know, the always interesting thing is why we
[16:10] cannot be as kind to ourselves as we can to any random
[16:13] stranger. So random stranger, if they said
[16:16] to us, you know, I've made a mistake at work, I've done
[16:18] something wrong. Like we'd go poor you.
[16:19] We'd immediately go, oh, poor you.
[16:21] That would be very natural to us because you blithering idiot,
[16:24] what are you? You know, we speak to ourselves
[16:26] with the harshest possible voice, which is often an
[16:29] internalized voice. You know, the way we speak to
[16:32] ourselves is largely to do with having incorporated the voice of
[16:38] somebody else who spoke to us normally when we were small.
[16:42] And some of us have had the misfortune to have inner voices
[16:45] that are not very helpful. What are you doing, you silly
[16:48] idiot? Why did you forget your to tie
[16:49] your shoelaces? Don't touch the kitchen cabinet.
[16:52] Get out of my way. I'm, I'm, I'm busy, you silly
[16:55] little nonsense, etcetera. Unfortunately, there are
[16:57] childhoods in which those messages are being drawn in.
[17:00] And then that becomes, you see people who have bad childhoods
[17:04] suffer twice. They suffer in the childhood and
[17:06] then they suffer because the negativity has been incorporated
[17:09] in their own mind. And they then start to be the
[17:12] negative caregiver to themselves.
[17:14] And they take that out into relationships and, and the
[17:17] workplace, etcetera. So that they've got, you know,
[17:20] what Freud called the Super ego that the, the voice inside
[17:23] themselves that is the voice of an unkind person of authority.
[17:30] And sometimes people have good internal voices, but many of us
[17:33] have quite bad ones. So it's really interesting to
[17:36] ask oneself, how do I speak to myself when I mess up?
[17:39] Do I speak kindly to myself or do I hate myself?
[17:43] And whose is that voice? It's not yours.
[17:46] It's a voice you've heard and you've taken it inside yourself.
[17:50] And then you need to say to yourself, do I agree with that
[17:52] voice? And you might need to say it.
[17:54] Do a little bit of a goodbye ceremony and go, thank you
[17:56] voice. I know I've taken you inside me.
[17:59] I don't want this voice. Life's too short.
[18:01] Get out. It's true, I sometimes find it
[18:05] really helpful to name that voice so I don't feel like it's
[18:07] part of me. Yeah, that's right.
[18:08] And it won't be. It'll be the voice of a great
[18:10] aunt or parent. Usually it's a mother or father,
[18:13] but we don't need to point that make that point too hard.
[18:17] How important is that to recognise though?
[18:19] Because a lot of people will say, well, that voice drives me,
[18:22] it motivates me, it connects me to being a better person in all
[18:26] ways and the way I work and the way I am.
[18:29] Yeah, look, there's a lot of equivocation around the value of
[18:32] a whip. A whip, you know, could be a
[18:34] good thing, gets people going, you know, whip yourself a little
[18:36] bit harder and off you go. And then there's the moment
[18:39] where the whip ceases to be very helpful at all.
[18:42] It's got to be a balance, isn't it?
[18:44] There's got to be motivation and part of motivation has got to be
[18:47] moments of self hatred, self criticism, ETC.
[18:50] But there are those of us who are suffering from an excess.
[18:54] It's it's become really unhelpful.
[18:56] You know, think of the number of books that don't get written
[18:58] because people are so worried they're going to be bad.
[19:01] Think of the number of businesses that don't get
[19:02] started because people think, oh, that's a silly idea.
[19:05] Think of the a number of initiatives sort of quashed at
[19:07] birth because somebody is ahead of their own more hopeful sides
[19:12] with that critical voice. So, you know, for every person
[19:15] who didn't, you know, bother to get off of bed because, you
[19:18] know, they were just too easy on themselves, there's a million
[19:21] fantastic things that have not happened because people were too
[19:25] critical of their projects and their dreams.
[19:29] How do you advise people to deal with criticism?
[19:34] First of all, don't be too stoked too quickly.
[19:36] It really hurts. Some people go, I can't believe
[19:38] it. You know, I heard somebody
[19:40] saying something bad about me last month, and it's just moving
[19:43] around my brain even now. And I'm just, I'm such an idiot.
[19:46] You want to go? Don't worry.
[19:47] We're built like this. This is very normal.
[19:50] We are acutely sensitive to criticism.
[19:53] There are probably biological reasons for that.
[19:55] The view of the tribe mattered immensely when we lived in a
[19:57] village of 15 people. If one of those people had a
[20:00] very bad opinion about you, you should probably know about it
[20:02] and worry about it. The irony as in so many impulses
[20:06] that we have physiologically almost they, they outgrow their
[20:09] uses. So it was also tremendously
[20:11] useful to eat any sugary thing that came your way, because that
[20:14] way you would preserve your calories nowadays, disaster,
[20:18] right? You must not do that thing that
[20:19] you're impulsive. Same thing around gossip and
[20:22] criticism. It doesn't matter if somebody
[20:24] 800,000 miles away, you know, posted something negative on a
[20:28] blog about you, forget it, forget it.
[20:30] It doesn't matter. It's not anything that you need
[20:32] to worry about, but we bring to the the conditions of the modern
[20:36] city and the modern Internet world as some of that
[20:39] sensitivity that was essentially honed in the Savannah, and it
[20:42] doesn't belong and it causes problems that are unnecessary.
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[21:41] Oliver Berkman is someone I've spoken to on the show probably
[21:45] more than anyone, and he has a really interesting relationship
[21:48] with self compassion and it always comes up again and again.
[21:51] And what I love about this part in particular is that he's
[21:54] actually working through the answer in real time.
[21:58] Self compassion isn't sometimes just a flip that you switch on,
[22:01] it's actually something that you connect to in the present
[22:04] moment. And I absolutely love his way of
[22:07] approaching self compassion. How has your relationship with
[22:10] self compassion changed from the last time I spoke to you till
[22:13] now? Because it's something that you
[22:14] fundamentally know that I'm very interested in.
[22:16] But you also said to me really interestingly, after we came off
[22:20] that original talk that we had, which I didn't think was going
[22:22] to go into self compassion, like there wasn't.
[22:25] It was about productivity, it was about time management.
[22:28] It was about looking at perfectionism and being an
[22:31] imperfectionist and being OK with that.
[22:33] But it's really interesting When we left, you said to me, I'm
[22:36] really diving into, I'm really trying to like understand this a
[22:38] lot more and it's really piquing my interest, which is really
[22:42] interesting to me because I just didn't think it was going to
[22:44] come up. And I thought if only I knew
[22:46] that I would have the whole conversation.
[22:49] So I could not bring it up today because I mean, it's kind of
[22:53] instrumental now to all the work that I do.
[22:56] And obviously I said to you earlier, the cringe part was
[22:58] really interesting to me when you said that, how cringe
[23:02] aversed did you? How cringe aversed is it to you
[23:04] now? Like when you think about the
[23:06] term self compassion or the things that you do in your life,
[23:09] like what's your journey being with it in the last year?
[23:12] Well, I might say that recapping a bit from the last conversation
[23:15] because I think it is a deepening of that same idea, but
[23:18] the cringe. Originally it was this notion
[23:20] that like there's something sort of self indulgent or self
[23:26] absorbed about like, or that you're a sort of as if the
[23:31] invitation and the idea of self compassion is to think of myself
[23:33] as like very specially in need of like being treated well,
[23:39] which just goes against like everything that I that I've sort
[23:44] of been raised to, to think and and and to feel.
[23:47] And a big breakthrough, and this is a recap from last time, but a
[23:50] big breakthrough for me was encountering ways of expressing
[23:55] this idea that that made it out as being that all I was being
[24:00] asked to do was not be more unkind to myself than I would
[24:05] ever dream of being to like a friend, right.
[24:09] So I think that realization of how easy it is to sort of go
[24:13] through the day shouting at yourself, not just in ways that
[24:15] are mean, but in ways that like you yourself would never do to
[24:19] the people you live and work with because like, of course you
[24:22] wouldn't right? That was a, That was a.
[24:25] That was a useful moment, but. Do you remember?
[24:29] When that moment happened, because I remember when that
[24:31] moment happened and there was a moment when something just
[24:35] flipped. But all of a sudden I was like,
[24:37] wow, that that is what I've been doing.
[24:41] But I think I had to be in the moment of my life to see it.
[24:46] Because I think if someone would have said that 10 years ago, I'd
[24:48] mean that's really nice. Totally unrelatable.
[24:51] Right, right. Yeah.
[24:53] I don't remember the specific moment.
[24:55] I think that I I very often don't remember moments.
[24:59] It's like I look back and it turns out that I'm in a
[25:01] different place than I was a few weeks ago.
[25:02] And writing morning pages is a crucial part of this for me.
[25:06] So that's my one, sort of. That's just anything that comes
[25:09] to your mind. Three sides of an ASICS narrow
[25:11] ruled notebook. And that, that's not part of the
[25:13] rules, by the way, That's just what I do, right?
[25:15] Yeah, just wherever my head is at almost every morning really
[25:21] helps these sort of ideas and feelings take shape.
[25:25] I guess where I'm at with it now.
[25:27] And it's interesting because I feel like what's interesting to
[25:29] me, I feel like I've been on quite a psychological journey,
[25:34] but have maybe not recently been thinking of it in terms of, of
[25:39] self compassion. But it is about self compassion
[25:43] because it is understanding. And I think we all go through
[25:48] this, right, That in one way or another, coming to understand
[25:51] the ways in which the difficulties that you encounter
[25:56] in life or the difficulties you seem to cause yourself in life
[26:00] sort of are because of ways of being that that made sense,
[26:04] right? That that, that that were
[26:07] reasonable ways of, of dealing with aspects of your childhood
[26:13] situation or experiences that you had.
[26:16] And again, not only in the context of people who
[26:18] experienced like sort of severe trauma or neglect, which I
[26:21] certainly did not, but that like, you know, there's some
[26:24] aspect of, however all of us are raised that's going to give us
[26:28] certain kind of schemers, you know, certain kinds of rules of
[26:32] thumb that we, that we follow. And I think one of the ones that
[26:35] I developed for sure was this sense that like I had to sort of
[26:42] hold the rest of the world at Bay often by doing all my work
[26:45] and being really productive and staying on top of everything so
[26:48] that I could sort of get breathing space to be myself,
[26:51] right? So there was a sort of a 0 sum
[26:53] arrangement between all the stuff I had to do and like
[26:56] actually living. And so I was constant and
[26:58] constantly like, like, can I, can I just deal with it all so
[27:00] that I can finally, as opposed to somebody like more
[27:06] psychologically integrated who might say no, I can be myself
[27:10] through the things that I do and choose to do.
[27:13] And so that's just one pattern and people have a million
[27:16] different patterns and a million different random screw ups.
[27:18] And you're ACS right. But the self compassion part, I
[27:21] think, for me anyway, was seeing like, Oh yeah, you don't just do
[27:25] this because you're an idiot, because you haven't figured out
[27:27] the truth or because you haven't come across the right therapy
[27:30] modality or productivity technique.
[27:33] You do it because you can see the ways that it made sense as a
[27:38] way of like managing anxiety and living in the specific context
[27:44] that you're living. And that's really powerful
[27:47] because then it's like, OK, it's not a mystery, but somehow it
[27:51] also then gives me the agency to be like, I don't also maybe
[27:54] don't have to do that all the time for the rest of my life.
[28:00] Yeah. And it enables you to be more
[28:02] compassionate to the equivalent patterns in others, the people
[28:08] you live with or work with or are the parent of even, You
[28:11] know, I mean, our son is still young enough that I can hold on
[28:15] to the hope that we're somehow not going to completely screw
[28:17] him up. And I'm sure, you know, all
[28:18] parents do on some level. But but just a general empathy
[28:23] for the idea that the way people, the people do things for
[28:26] emotional logics. And if you really want to push
[28:29] that point, like people who I think of as causing all the
[28:33] problems in the world today are also doing for following
[28:36] emotional logics, which doesn't make their actions acceptable or
[28:40] moral. But it's really helpful in kind
[28:42] of understanding what the Hell's going on and not just being, you
[28:47] know, shriveled up in, in hate against the situation.
[28:51] Yeah, Well, I guess the embodiment of self compassion is
[28:54] love and acceptance. And I think the thing that I
[28:58] figured out for me, it felt like the antidote distress of when
[29:02] you feel overwhelmed or when you feel, as you said, that like
[29:05] push and pull, which I think we all feel in today's demanding
[29:09] world, that push and pull, that self compassion allows you just
[29:13] to have a bit of a breather. And for me it, it's propelled
[29:18] the word let go. That's what self compassion
[29:21] allows me to do. It is that propeller to say,
[29:24] actually, I can let go. Like I am allowed to give myself
[29:27] this in the moment because it's I find that I seem to be the
[29:31] friend in the friendship group that everyone comes to for
[29:33] advice and sits there. But at points in my life, my
[29:37] friends have gone. Why can't you ever take your?
[29:39] Right. You're so great at like being
[29:43] the person we come to, but you seem to struggle with
[29:45] implementing on yourself. And it's interesting.
[29:48] Because I think we all have this innate wisdom in us.
[29:51] We all have it, but we have like intellectualized ourselves so
[29:54] much that we push it away. And I think we we live in our
[29:58] minds and so. That self compassion.
[30:02] Is bringing in that ancient wisdom that we actually know
[30:04] because we offer it to everyone else.
[30:05] We can very clearly see what we should really do, but when it
[30:10] comes to ourselves, we can't inflict it to ourselves, but we
[30:13] can find it so much easier to give it to someone else.
[30:16] Yeah, right. No, I, yes, I think this is AI
[30:19] think this is a common pattern and I'm sure I, I, I have a good
[30:23] dose of it as well. Yeah, yeah.
[30:25] And I think it is all wrapped up into the optimization,
[30:30] longevity, productivity cultures that we all are so eager to get
[30:35] to and and find out the right answer to.
[30:39] But we missed that crucial step, which is US.
[30:43] Yes. No, exactly.
[30:44] Exactly this journey and that's, I think that's the irony of the
[30:48] whole situation, which I, I think it's amazing that we all
[30:50] want to be better. I think that's an amazing thing.
[30:52] And that's fundamentally the, the essence of the quality.
[30:55] I think the essence of all the work that you write about is
[30:57] that ultimately we want to be better.
[30:59] We want to be better with our time.
[31:00] We want to be better friends, we want to be better parents.
[31:02] We want to be better at all works.
[31:04] We want to be healthier. Like we want all of these
[31:06] things, but we kind of lose ourselves in that.
[31:09] Yeah, and it's so interesting that I haven't really thought
[31:10] about those terms, but like the wanting to be better, that is
[31:14] not antithetical to aliveness. That is the expression of
[31:18] aliveness. But wanting to be better in
[31:20] order to get to a standard where you can then finally relax,
[31:23] that's the thing. That or where you can finally
[31:25] not have to feel bad about yourself and like you're a huge
[31:28] loser, That is antithetical to aliveness.
[31:30] So it's really interesting the distinction there because yeah,
[31:34] no, I, I totally agree that that urge to grow is that is life,
[31:40] then that is that is that's not to be let go of.
[31:45] I attended Ted earlier this year, and I found myself in
[31:47] conversations with the founders of NO.
[31:49] Watch. You've probably seen me wear
[31:51] something on my wrist, and lots of you have messaged me asking
[31:55] me what this is. It looks like a classic watch,
[31:57] but it's actually quietly tracking something much more
[32:00] meaningful, your autonomic nervous system.
[32:03] This is the system that governs everything from how you respond
[32:06] from excitement to anxiety, calm to overwhelm.
[32:09] Most wearables just give you a score, but if you're anything
[32:12] like me, that score can sometimes make you feel worse,
[32:16] like you're already. Behind before your day even
[32:19] begins. No watch works differently.
[32:21] There is no judgement and there is no dopamine chasing
[32:23] dashboard. It simply reflects what your
[32:26] body is already. Experiencing and also helps you
[32:28] notice what it might be missing. It gives you minute by minute
[32:31] timeline of your stress responses and your recovery.
[32:34] The recovery is the most important part and it's the part
[32:37] that no one talks about and it is often the most revealing
[32:40] marker of our long term health. In just five days, it calibrates
[32:44] your body and it builds build your personal health
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[32:54] If you want to understand your body not just through
[32:56] performance but through self-awareness, then this is
[32:59] where I'd begin. Professor Paul Gilbert is the
[33:05] founder of Compassion Focused Therapy and this part of the
[33:09] conversation completely reframed how I thought about and see his
[33:13] work. He draws a direction between the
[33:16] compassionate self and who you want to be and the compassionate
[33:21] mind in between. This takes training and it takes
[33:24] time to get there. This is probably one of my
[33:27] favorite exchanges on the show and also some really practical
[33:31] tools to help guide you. Will you talk a lot about the
[33:34] compassionate self versus the compassionate mind?
[33:36] Yeah. Can you break these down for me?
[33:39] OK, so the compassionate self is the self that you're working in
[33:42] the Buddhist tradition, it's called Bodhi cheetah.
[33:45] It's the self that you want to be.
[33:46] You know, it's your idea, the kind of person you want to be.
[33:48] How do you want to live your life?
[33:49] What values do you want to live to?
[33:50] You know, do you want to be a person that doesn't care, you
[33:54] know, as long as they get what they want and make as much money
[33:57] as they want? And there are certainly people
[33:59] like that. Or are you a person that thinks
[34:01] actually while I'm on this journey where whatever it means,
[34:05] wherever it's going, I'm going to recognize that the reality of
[34:09] biological life, biological life is a horrific, is horrific.
[34:14] I mean, all life forms have to be other life forms.
[34:16] And I mean, there's diseases and we just arrive here and then we
[34:21] discover we're not going to be here for very long.
[34:22] Then we have to face losses and griefs and everything.
[34:25] So we know that life is full of suffering.
[34:27] All right, So while I'm here in this life are full of suffering,
[34:31] what is it that I could do to help?
[34:36] And that's for me, the key issue of an identity.
[34:39] That's what I want, OK? I want to understand this nature
[34:42] is suffering. Why do we suffer?
[34:43] And I want to see what I can do to help.
[34:45] The next thing is compassionate mind, OK?
[34:47] But it's like I want to climb Mount Everest, so I want to run
[34:50] a marathon. Unfortunately, if you look at my
[34:53] body, you realize I in any state to do that.
[34:56] So I need the body to run the marathon or to climb them out
[35:00] to. So I'm going to have to train my
[35:01] body to do what I wanted to do. So your compassionate mind is a
[35:06] way you train your mind in order for it to do what you wanted to
[35:10] do. So I want my, I want my mind to
[35:13] be able to help me live a life of compassion where I tried to
[35:17] the best I can to address suffering where I see it and
[35:20] certainly not be a cause of it, because it's easy to be a cause
[35:22] of it, isn't it? But I need a mind that's going
[35:25] to be mindful. I need a mind that can ground
[35:27] itself. I need a mind that has wisdom,
[35:29] that understands what's going on and doesn't get caught.
[35:31] I've been blaming myself for things that really not my fault.
[35:34] I need a mind that has some degree of courage about it so
[35:37] that, you know, when people are critical or ridicule what I do,
[35:42] I have to be able to stand up against that.
[35:44] So I need a mind, I mean competencies and abilities and
[35:47] strengths to be able to live to my identity, the identity I
[35:52] want. So the compassionate mind I'm
[35:55] now interpreting as the manual. Yeah, it is.
[35:57] It's your. It's your training manual, Yeah?
[36:00] The manual to your intention of what you want to.
[36:02] Be as one. Yeah, it's, I mean, it's saying
[36:05] if you wanted to be a a musician, OK, you want to be a
[36:08] famous, Oh, you wanted to be a tennis player.
[36:09] What are you going to do? You've got to learn the game.
[36:11] You've got to learn if you're going to be a musician, you've
[36:13] got to learn the chords, you've got to learn how music works and
[36:15] you've got to practice, right. So there's nothing that strange
[36:20] about it, but people think, Oh well, when it's an identity like
[36:22] compassion, we it's just natural.
[36:25] No, you can train at it and you can get better at it.
[36:28] I'm interrupting for one moment to ask one small favour.
[36:31] Please subscribe to the show. This helps it grow more than you
[36:36] know. And I'm so bad at asking this
[36:38] from you. I'm so bad at thinking about
[36:40] this. But you know, my goal was
[36:42] 100,000 to get to on YouTube and I really want to bring you more
[36:46] content and bigger episodes. And we can only do that with
[36:49] your help together. So please do hit subscribe.
[36:52] Thank you. Lastly, we have Doctor William
[36:55] Bolswitch. Now, maybe I lied and said
[36:57] Oliver Berkman was the most revisited guest because Doctor
[37:01] William Bolswitch is as well. And this one I wanted to end was
[37:05] very personal for him because Will brings back today what so
[37:10] many of us are missing with the mind, the body and the gut, that
[37:14] it's not just a diet or a checklist that can fix our
[37:17] health. And he shares something in this
[37:19] clip that we don't talk about enough.
[37:22] And he has so much honesty and so much connection to actually
[37:26] what did reveal his true understanding of getting him to
[37:29] better health. And guess what?
[37:31] It actually wasn't his diet. There's so many things that
[37:35] affect our gut health. What do you think that we're not
[37:39] listening to or that we probably don't want to hear that, but we
[37:42] should? Here's what I honestly would say
[37:45] is that we kind of touched on this, but I think I want to say
[37:48] this more emphatically and let it and let it be our number 2 is
[37:54] that good health isn't just what you eat.
[37:58] So you could eat everything. You could eat all the proper
[38:01] foods. You could eat a Doctor B
[38:03] recommended diet or a Mediterranean diet, which is
[38:05] basically what's being recommended in my book and still
[38:09] not get to where you need to be. Why would that be?
[38:12] Because something is missing that's impacting your gut, and
[38:15] that can be stress, that can be trauma, that can be your
[38:21] relationships, that can be whether or not deep inside of
[38:27] the recesses of your soul, you feel a sense of purpose and a
[38:34] comfort in what your life means and also what will happen when
[38:40] your life is over. And that to me is the spiritual
[38:45] needs that we have that are often overlooked and I think
[38:51] missing quite heavily in the modern world.
[38:56] So the call to action is to bring awareness.
[38:59] This is this is I, I mentioned earlier that chapter 8 is my
[39:03] favorite chapter in this book because this is where we talk
[39:06] about the brain gut connection that you and I have touched on
[39:08] today. But what you need to know is,
[39:14] and what I've learned in my own life, my best healing was not
[39:17] just changing my diet. My best healing was when I fixed
[39:23] my relationship with my dad, who I had a complex relationship
[39:28] with, and that's what I discussed in that chapter.
[39:32] But I think for each of us, there's a unique story there
[39:37] where healing is possible and it's not just what's on your
[39:40] plate. I think that's the.
[39:41] Biggest overlooked area of health?
[39:43] It's why the I wrote the book Healthy Shouldn't Be this Hard
[39:46] because I think there was a time where I was doing every single
[39:50] thing right. And I still was hospitalized.
[39:53] I even got had a bowel obstruction last year and that
[39:56] is due to intense stress. And I think, you know,
[40:00] ultimately you can have the biggest checklist in the world.
[40:04] You can have your 30 plant based foods a week.
[40:07] You cannot drink alcohol. But actually, you know, for me
[40:11] and and yours was the relationship to your dad, which
[40:13] I can imagine was a huge hill to trauma and we forget how much
[40:17] that can affect us. And mine was heavy self
[40:19] criticism of not feeling good enough.
[40:22] And actually when I learnt the power of self compassion and the
[40:25] importance that that had on my health and to give myself a bit
[40:28] of a break and to let things go and to speak to myself as I
[40:32] would a best friend or you know, people that are coming on the
[40:35] show. When I give that back to myself,
[40:37] everything in my health started to be a bit easier.
[40:40] And then all those other stepping stones that I had fell
[40:43] into place. But I had the healthiest diet in
[40:46] the world, but I was still hospitalised.
[40:49] And so in my brain becomes very disjointed.
[40:51] But you're in the hospital bed and you have 5 different
[40:54] consultants, A gastroenterologist, A renal Dr.
[40:57] a cardiovascular Dr. everyone there kind of diagnosing the
[41:00] separate parts. But you forget the whole person
[41:03] at the centre of it. And actually, it's not just
[41:06] because of that one bowel obstruction or that one thing,
[41:08] it's, it's a collation of exactly what you were saying,
[41:12] the mind and the body. And I do think, you know, it's
[41:15] important to understand these steps so we can start making the
[41:18] right decisions. But ultimately I'm very similar
[41:21] that you have to kind of go to a place of, of self compassion and
[41:25] self love and self understanding to really be the healthiest
[41:28] version of of yourself. I think it's just not looked
[41:32] about enough today. Thank you for giving yourself
[41:36] some time for self compassion. You've actually just gone
[41:40] through some of the best minds in this space and I hope it's
[41:44] giving you some guidance, some support on just how to be a
[41:48] little bit kinder to yourself. Save this episode for when you
[41:53] maybe feel like you need to hear it the most or send this to
[41:55] someone that you love who maybe needs to hear this right now on
[41:59] self compassion. If you want to know more or
[42:02] you're interested in the subject, my new book Healthy
[42:05] Shouldn't be this Hard is out to pre-order and drops from May the
[42:08] 28th, 2026. If you're listening to this
[42:11] after, head down below to the show notes.
[42:13] Zoe, you can buy the book, you can ship it anywhere in the
[42:16] world from Amazon. So if it's you're not in the UK,
[42:19] don't worry, you can still get your hands on one.
[42:21] And that's it. There is your time for a bit of
[42:24] you and a bit of self compassion.

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