# Alain de Botton: Happiness Only Lasts 15 Minutes. Stop Trying to Make It Permanent.

An episode of [Live Well Be Well with Sarah Ann Macklin | Health, Lifestyle, Nutrition](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1508380100), 30 Mar 2026, 8:09.

Audio: https://anchor.fm/s/1033d1554/podcast/play/117443664/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2026-2-25%2F597cfe12-91d3-72b8-a27e-477551c37a95.mp3

If you've ever felt like you're failing because you can't hold it together all the time — this conversation with philosopher and author Alain de Botton will change how you see yourself. Science confirms that happiness comes in 15-minute bursts, and the relentless pursuit of permanent calm is the very thing driving burnout in high-achieving women. You'll also discover the simple eight-minute text that could transform how you ask for help — and finally let the people who love you actually show up. Alain De Button in conversation with Sarah Ann Listen to the full episode here. Watch the full episode on YouTube here. *** This episode is sponsored by: NOWATCH: The compassionate health tracker Connecting body and mind with unique stress recovery insights so you can live fully today15% off with code LWBW15 at https://nowatch.com/ Mojo: the app for expert-led courses in better sex.Learn from world-class sex therapists and relationship experts with courses tailored to your needs.15% off with code LiveWell15 at mymojo.com/livewellbewell *** The Great British Veg OutHow to support your gut, energy, and hormones by eating more — not less. 👉 https://sarahmacklin.substack.com/p/the-great-british-veg-outReset Your HealthIf your body feels off after stress, travel, or burnout — this is where to start. 👉 https://sarahmacklin.substack.com/s/reset-your-health-in-30-days 👉 Practical beats perfect.Here’s a free 5-recipe PDF I use to support energy and stress during busy weeks.https://sarahannmacklin.com/5_free_recipes 👉 If this resonates, you can join the thousands who readThe Compassionate Cure each week.https://sarahmacklin.substack.com/ *** Let’s be friends! 📷 Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sarahannmacklin/📹 Subscribe: http://www.youtube.com/@livewellbewellsarah 🐦 Twitter: https://x.com/SarahAnnMacklin 📱 TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@livewellbewellpodcast💌 Newsletter: https://sarahmacklin.substack.com/

## Transcript

[0:02] This is a Beware moment, the most replayed moments from my
[0:05] latest conversation. It's a glimpse into the wider
[0:08] episode, which you can find LinkedIn the show notes below.
[0:12] Because sometimes one small moment is enough to reconnect to
[0:16] living well and being well. What's the most important
[0:24] quality of a friend? I think being able to go to the
[0:27] dark places with you in a way that's upbeat kind broadly on
[0:33] the side of the sunlight, but really going to the dark places.
[0:37] I, you know, we all want that friend.
[0:39] We can call it 3:00 in the morning and go, I'm not in a
[0:42] good place. And that they won't panic.
[0:44] You know, some people, some people panic.
[0:45] That's not helpful. They go like, Oh my God, I love
[0:47] you so much. I can't bear that you're
[0:48] suffering. That's no use.
[0:50] That's, that's not helpful. You don't want that, you know, I
[0:52] mean, bless them, they're only trying to help.
[0:54] But there are these people who lose it when you know, you want
[0:57] people who are calm and you want people go broadly speaking, I
[1:02] got it. I, I, you know, first of all,
[1:04] it'll be OK. And even if it's not OK, it'll
[1:06] be OK because everything's OK. The worst thing can happen is we
[1:08] die. It's the very worst thing.
[1:10] So don't worry. At worst, you're going to die.
[1:13] And, and I'm here and I'm here and, and, and, and it's no
[1:16] surprise. Welcome to being human.
[1:18] That's the kind of voice we need.
[1:20] And you know, we talk about achievement and people, you
[1:24] know, founders, a lot of founders and they're, they're
[1:26] launching a tech company and they've raised 300 million in
[1:28] their first thing. Bless them.
[1:30] But can they fuck off as well? Because really the real
[1:34] achievement in life is 3 good friends.
[1:36] If you've got three good friends you've met, I mean, bless you
[1:39] for doing your A round and your B round.
[1:41] And you know, I'm, I'm being facetious, but but that's not,
[1:45] that's not real achievement. Real achievement is 3 good
[1:48] friends you can call in the middle of the night.
[1:49] Then you've made it. If you do that and float your
[1:51] company, then you're really swimming.
[1:52] But then you're really swimming. Then you're.
[1:54] Really swimming. Well, I mean, there's so many
[1:56] things I want to ask you in that question.
[1:58] Sorry, I'm really trying that was there's a lot of moments, I
[2:02] think where we look at life on achievements.
[2:05] We talk about what life balance. Simon Sinek taught me a lot
[2:09] about friendships when he came on this show, talking about
[2:11] people that sit in the mud with you.
[2:13] I loved that phrase and terminology that he used and he
[2:16] he taught something to me that I've really used through the
[2:19] last year of my life, which was 8 minutes.
[2:23] Have you heard of this? So a lot of us, especially being
[2:28] English, maybe this is like a broad generalisation, but can
[2:31] feel burden to call our friends and say we really, really need
[2:34] you. And sometimes you might go
[2:36] around it in a quite hard way to show that we're struggling.
[2:41] So maybe say, are you free for dinner next week or can I see
[2:43] you? That's not really, you know,
[2:45] you're not a mind reader, so no one really knows.
[2:48] That's a cry for help. And he had this situation where
[2:51] a friend of him, a friend of his had text him and say, can I see
[2:54] you? Anyway, a couple of weeks have
[2:56] gone on. And when he saw her, she said,
[2:58] oh, I really was going through a hard time.
[3:00] And he said, why didn't you? Why didn't you tell me?
[3:03] She said what I did tried to text you.
[3:06] I was like, well, where? And he looked at his phone and
[3:08] it was just very average text messages like, are you around?
[3:11] Can I see you? And he was like this, this is a
[3:14] cry for help. I don't know that.
[3:16] And they came up with an amazing theory of 8 minutes.
[3:21] So just text me 8 minutes, the word 8 minutes.
[3:25] Because in those eight minutes, whatever I'm doing, I can have 8
[3:28] minutes of time and I can dedicate an hour to you maybe
[3:31] later on in the evening. But I can be there to answer
[3:35] that phone call because I know that I can step out of an
[3:37] interview, out of a boardroom, out of whatever to give that
[3:40] person 8 minutes of space. And I've actually used that
[3:45] where I haven't wanted to explain and say, oh, I'm having
[3:47] a really, really hard time. I really need you to call me.
[3:50] It's a simple 8 minutes, which I think is really interesting
[3:54] concept. Yeah, I.
[3:55] Mean look, I think the greatest gift you can give a friend is to
[4:00] bring them a need to to be able to say to them, I'm in a bit of
[4:05] difficulty. I'd really like to speak to you.
[4:08] It's amazing the number of friendships where that never
[4:10] happens. If you do that with someone, it
[4:13] does something very important. It allows them to do it back.
[4:16] If ever they need to do it, it open that door.
[4:19] You've done it for them. Oh, sorry, they've done it for
[4:22] you, so you will do it for them. It's a, it's a reciprocity and,
[4:26] and, and to get it going, why don't you do it as it were, even
[4:29] if it's, you know, you could even act it out a little bit.
[4:32] It doesn't need to be as urgent. But just to say I'm feeling a
[4:36] bit low. I'd love to have a chat.
[4:37] You know, it's particularly men. I mean, the average man never
[4:40] says that to his friends, never ever.
[4:43] But how wonderful to be able to say to a friend, I'm actually
[4:46] feeling a bit low And you know, would you like a chat that I
[4:51] mean, you know, 8 minutes, sure, great.
[4:53] It's a nice thing. Why not just try?
[4:55] I'm feeling a bit low. Do you have time for a chat
[4:57] anytime, simple as that. That is a gift because it it
[5:01] opens up the possibility for mutual vulnerability and mutual
[5:05] pain. I put a link on my Instagram
[5:08] yesterday and one of your posts about work life balance.
[5:13] I've been struggling a lot with this concept of work life
[5:16] balance and so you spoke about friendships there.
[5:18] You know, having 3 core friends is really important for I guess
[5:22] a life well lived. To feel supported, to have
[5:24] community, to feel her, to feel seen.
[5:27] To feel seen I think is one of the most important things in
[5:29] life. I think a lot of people might go
[5:30] through and have friendships but never feel truly seen.
[5:34] Then we come into this concept of the work life balance, trying
[5:38] to balance your friendships, maybe a romantic relationship, a
[5:43] career. I mean, as a woman you have like
[5:46] another extension of being a mother and a family and also not
[5:49] losing that autonomy over your career.
[5:52] How like is there a thing of work life balance?
[5:55] Does it even exist? Look, I think we have to think
[5:57] about how we imagine a good life.
[6:01] Most of us, if you look at it meteorologically, imagine a blue
[6:03] sky. We imagine that a good life is 1
[6:06] where there is a permanent blue sky.
[6:07] And we think right now there's problems, but soon I'm going to
[6:10] get to that blue sky. And I think we have to accept a
[6:13] more complicated, nuanced picture.
[6:15] If you live in a northern climate like the UK, or if you
[6:18] live in Seattle or something, you'll know that there are
[6:21] breaks in the clouds, but there are always clouds, even if even
[6:24] on a sunny day, you will get some clouds.
[6:27] That's a much more accurate picture of actually what life is
[6:30] like. We're made of moods.
[6:32] We're not made of stone. We're not made of arguments,
[6:34] We're not made of silicon. We are made of moods.
[6:37] We're made of water and fog, and our moods are constantly
[6:40] shifting from one thing to another.
[6:42] If you're in a good mood for for 15 minutes, good for you.
[6:45] A bad one will come along later, you know.
[6:47] If you're feeling serene and calm in the evening, you will
[6:50] feel agitated and nauseous at another point.
[6:52] It's it's nothing to do with you.
[6:53] It's the way we're built. We're constantly cycling through
[6:56] emotions and I think we long too much and unhelpfully for an idea
[7:01] of reaching a state of eternal solid calm, we have to embrace
[7:07] the mobility and the kind of roiling quality of our moods.
[7:11] So if you're having, you know, a working life that's complicated,
[7:14] a personal life that's complicated, etcetera, of course
[7:16] you're going to be up and down and sideways and roundabout all
[7:19] the time. And rather than fighting about
[7:21] that and, and, and thinking there's something's gone wrong,
[7:23] no, this is just a sign that you're human.
[7:27] Happiness comes in 15 minute bursts.
[7:31] You know, if things are feeling more or less settled, don't
[7:33] worry, they will feel unsettled soon.
[7:35] It's just the normal. And if they're feeling totally
[7:38] unsettled and you think it's the end, don't worry, it will, you
[7:41] know, it will become a more hopeful moment.
[7:42] It's just the way we're built up and down, up and down, up and
[7:45] down. That's the way we're built.
[7:49] Thank you for listening to this Be Well moment.
[7:51] If it resonated, the full conversation is LinkedIn, the
[7:55] show notes, and I hope it gave you a small pause to take a
[7:59] moment for you and to reconnect to living well and being well.
[8:03] If you loved it, please do leave a review, follow the show or
[8:06] share this maybe with someone you love.

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