# The Men Named in the Epstein Files: Gurus, Healers & Their Hidden Lives | Dr Gemma Newman

An episode of [Live Well Be Well with Sarah Ann Macklin | Health, Lifestyle, Nutrition](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1508380100), 25 Mar 2026, 1 h 12 min.

Audio: https://anchor.fm/s/1033d1554/podcast/play/117438995/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2026-2-25%2F420715477-44100-2-7c254097f2cc1.mp3

Why is it that the loudest voices in health are often the ones we trust the most — even when they’re not the most qualified? In a world where confidence travels faster than evidence, it can feel almost impossible to know who to believe. This week on Live Well Be Well, I’m joined again by the brilliant Dr. Gemma Newman. Gemma is a GP, author, and deeply thoughtful voice in the wellness space, known for her ability to bridge science, psychology, and compassion. In this conversation, we explore the uncomfortable truths behind power, influence, and the psychology that shapes who we trust. From the Epstein files to spiritual gurus, we unpack how easily admiration can turn into blind faith — and what it really takes to stay grounded in your own truth. This is a conversation about discernment, integrity, and learning to trust yourself in a world full of noise. Here’s what we explore together: Why confident health advice often outperforms true expertise — and how algorithms amplify this. The psychology behind why we trust powerful, successful, or attractive people more easily. How the “halo effect” can blind us to red flags in health, wellness, and beyond. What the shadow self really is — and why ignoring it can lead to harmful behaviour. How spiritual teachings like non-attachment can sometimes be misused or misunderstood. The dangers of hero worship — and why “never meet your heroes” can sometimes ring true. How to spot misalignment between someone’s public persona and private behaviour. Why women’s voices can feel diluted in health conversations — and how to reclaim them. The impact of movements like MeToo in helping women reconnect with their instincts. How overwhelm, misinformation, and “chaos tactics” can keep us stuck and disconnected. The ethical tension between doing good and holding too much power (from gurus to billionaires). Why accountability, humility, and multiple perspectives are essential in health leadership. How cancel culture can sometimes do more harm than good — and what to do instead. A practical framework for discernment: using your brain, heart, and gut together. Why the most important work always starts with integrating your own shadow. Love, Sarah Ann 💛 👉 Practical beats perfect. Here’s a free 5-recipe PDF I use to support energy and stress during busy weeks. https://open.substack.com/pub/sarahma... This episode is sponsored by: Further Reading & Resources: Let’s be friends! 📷 Instagram: / sarahannmacklin 📹 Subscribe: / @livewellbewellsarah 🐦 Twitter: https://x.com/SarahAnnMacklin 📱 TikTok: / livewellbewellpodcast 💌 Newsletter: https://sarahmacklin.substack.com/ If You Enjoyed This Episode, You Might Also Like: Sign up to Sarah’s Compassionate Cure newsletter: Science Simplified, Health Humanised. Join thousands in exploring actionable insights that prioritise compassion, clarity, and real-life impact. https://sarahmacklin.substack.com/ Highlights 00:00 Epstein Files Opener 00:08 Power and the Shadow 00:51 Spiritual Guru Hypocrisy 01:30 Book Announcement Break 02:50 Confidence Beats Expertise 24:22 Spotting False Prophets 37:37 Humility Signals Wisdom 38:06 Trusting Gut After MeToo 39:24 Publishing Vulnerable Substack 42:22 Overwhelm and Chaos Tactics 45:22 Gurus, Cults and Non-Attachment 51:03 Shadow Integration and Values 56:10 Billionaire Power and Accountability 58:53 Health Guidelines and Money 01:00:45 Building Inner Trust 01:03:34 Cancel Culture and Kindness 01:06:22 Practical Discernment Checklist 01:09:24 Live Well Be Well Closing Love what you’re hearing? My small ask is to please rate and review Live Well Be Well. This helps the show expand and allows me to keep producing these with the best quality guests. It means a huge amount to me, so thank you.

## Transcript

[0:00] So we're two women unpacking the Epstein files.
[0:03] Scary stuff, eh? Are you ready?
[0:05] I'm ready. Bring it.
[0:06] On Doctor Gemma Newman, lifestyle medicine expert, Best
[0:11] selling author So what did the Epstein files reveal about the
[0:14] experts we gave power to? Does power go to our heads?
[0:18] I think power can very easily go to our heads if left unchecked.
[0:22] Is this unpacking or revealing their shadow selves?
[0:26] I think sometimes the more success we have, the larger our
[0:29] shadow can become. So what's the shadow?
[0:32] The shadow is that part of ourselves that we try to deny or
[0:35] repress, that we feel a little bit ashamed of.
[0:38] When we have a public persona that we Polish, it's really hard
[0:42] for us to see the darkness that can then filter through
[0:46] underneath that we try to deny. And can 2 truths be held at the
[0:50] same time? It's very true that that can be
[0:52] the case, and we've seen how the Epstein files shows us this
[0:56] psychological map of power and influence and how it can change
[1:00] us actually. Were you shocked who came out in
[1:02] the Epstein files? I wasn't shocked, and that's the
[1:04] interesting thing, I think, because I have a very deep
[1:07] understanding that we are all human and we all have bits of
[1:10] ourselves that we'd rather avoid.
[1:12] But what did surprise me was the hypocrisy of the spiritual gurus
[1:17] that proclaim one thing and are so obviously doing another.
[1:21] I just had a really heavy dark feeling.
[1:23] You're gutting you. What fears you the most?
[1:26] The idea that we are naturally inclined to.
[1:32] For the last two years I have kept a secret from you and it's
[1:35] this, it's my new book Healthy Shouldn't Be This hard.
[1:39] And I think it is a problem that we are all feeling.
[1:42] And I was feeling it so much that I wrote a book on it.
[1:45] Now if you've been a guest of this podcast for a while, you
[1:48] know that I am all about kindness, self compassion.
[1:51] But when I dug into the research of this, my mind exploded.
[1:56] The connection between the mind and body is so integral.
[1:59] But we completely miss out on all the conversations on health,
[2:03] on how we speak to ourselves. And that is such a driving
[2:06] factor on how our food responds to what we eat, to the choices
[2:10] that we make. And we are so overwhelmed right
[2:12] now in the $8.5 trillion industry that is the Wellness
[2:16] industry, which is predicted to be by 2027.
[2:20] So if you need a helping hand, if you want a new way to live
[2:24] and be well and buy my new book healthy shouldn't be this hard
[2:28] out on May the 28th. But you can pre-order it now.
[2:32] I'll pop the link below in the show notes.
[2:34] And I would love if you could support me on this.
[2:37] And I honestly think it will support you too.
[2:40] Gemma, welcome back to Live Well.
[2:42] Be well. Thank you, Sarah.
[2:44] I'm delighted. I'm excited about today.
[2:47] Me too. Are you ready?
[2:49] I'm ready. Baby, here we go.
[2:51] OK, I've been thinking about this a lot and I know you have
[2:54] to. Do you think we're living in a
[2:56] time where confidence in health advice is outperforming
[3:01] expertise? It's a great question.
[3:05] It's a leading question and I'd say absolutely yes.
[3:10] And I feel that that's led by lots of different things.
[3:14] But the number one thing that I think plays into it the most is
[3:17] probably algorithmic success. Things that are punchy, things
[3:22] that are controversial, things that are outliers, things that
[3:26] blow people's minds are the things that people click on,
[3:31] watch, scroll, repeat. And so if someone says something
[3:35] confidently enough, everybody listens.
[3:39] Why? Why do you think that confident
[3:41] voices travel so much further online than yours once?
[3:43] Because I think that's the the big thing that I've just heard
[3:46] from you there. Yeah, I think there's a part of
[3:49] ourselves that almost likes to, almost likes to put less, less
[3:58] pressure on ourselves to think when we see somebody else so
[4:02] confident, it almost gives us permission to switch off and
[4:07] just think, yeah, OK, it's more comfortable, I think, for us to
[4:12] not have to use our own, I don't want to say intuition, but at
[4:19] least our own ideas of how to critically analyse something.
[4:24] How do we, how do we look at the pros and cons?
[4:27] How do we establish the research base?
[4:29] And it's also takes so much more effort to look at something more
[4:34] critically, especially for someone like me who, you know,
[4:37] obviously I have to do that as a doctor.
[4:40] I have to try to understand the evidence base and what research
[4:44] we have so far and what research could actually counteract that
[4:48] research and which is the most reliable.
[4:50] And when it takes so much more effort to counteract a false
[4:55] claim than it does just to say whatever you want and say, oh, a
[4:58] study shows this, a study shows that, or I really feel this and
[5:01] this is my reason. And then you could kind of come
[5:03] up with 10 different things. And the other person can just
[5:05] kind of go, what, and get bamboozled and get confused and
[5:09] just think, OK, well, you know what?
[5:10] They're confident. Yeah, I'll go with it.
[5:12] Absolutely. Well, I think what that preys on
[5:15] is vulnerability in other people.
[5:18] And I mean, I know that podcasts are one of the prime places
[5:22] today of misinformation and social media.
[5:25] But even if we go back to like Netflix shows and documentaries
[5:29] and you know, there was a really interesting 1, I don't know if
[5:31] you remember, called What the Health.
[5:33] Yes, I do remember that one. Yeah, and I I actually renamed
[5:36] it. What the fuck?
[5:39] That's the first time I've ever sworn on Livoir Biba in five
[5:42] years. Oh.
[5:42] So privileged. It's a fast time for that.
[5:45] Because I watched that and the cherry picking of evidence was
[5:50] so outrageous that it led the story narrative into what the
[5:54] producers wanted the outcome to be.
[5:56] And I think I was always told from the beginning of when I
[5:59] started studying nutritional science that a really good
[6:02] scientists will always try and disprove their hypothesis wrong.
[6:06] They will try and like all the surrounding evidence to say, is
[6:10] this really true? Now what I see, and I'm sure you
[6:13] agree, is the flip side. People have a hypothesis and
[6:17] they want to do everything they can to make that right.
[6:20] And we'll outline all the other evidence that kind of weighs up
[6:23] the for and against. Yeah, I've definitely see that
[6:26] online more than anywhere else. But I think it's also a facet of
[6:30] human nature. We want to feel right and we
[6:33] want to be able to trust ourselves and our point of view.
[6:36] And we also, it is very hard for us to accept when we're wrong.
[6:42] And I think the ego can play into that for everybody.
[6:46] But yes, I think that's one of the core facets of science in
[6:51] general is the understanding that you almost, you almost
[6:54] welcome a bit of a critique because it allows you to see the
[7:00] things that you would otherwise miss.
[7:01] And I think that's an important quality that we should take into
[7:04] the rest of our lives as well. And it's something that's very
[7:07] hard. I find it very hard actually,
[7:10] but necessary. So I feel as though sometimes
[7:13] the more success people have both in terms of, well, maybe in
[7:16] scientific world, but in life in general, the harder it is to
[7:20] receive feedback that's genuine, honest and can actually help us
[7:26] to see our own blind spots. So yeah, I think that's really
[7:30] important in in the scientific process and in life.
[7:33] And a lot of the people that we see in not just on social media,
[7:39] but in celebrity world as well, like they, they, they've got a
[7:43] skewed sense sometimes of objective reality.
[7:47] And there's there's probably not that many people around them
[7:49] telling them that what they might be doing is wrong or what
[7:53] they might be saying is incorrect.
[7:55] And then if they do get called out, then the natural instinct
[7:59] is to double down. The natural instinct is to
[8:02] deflect, natural instinct is to deny, and I think it's really
[8:07] important for us to recognise that in ourselves and in other
[8:10] people. What?
[8:12] What fears you the most right now in the landscape where
[8:15] health is today? What?
[8:18] Fears me the most. Well, in the context of today's
[8:23] discussion, I think the idea that we are naturally inclined
[8:28] to equate success with goodness. And I think that tendency can
[8:37] lead us down the wrong path sometimes.
[8:41] And it's so interesting when we look at the psychology of it,
[8:45] right? Because you see someone that's
[8:48] good looking, you see someone that's successful, you see
[8:51] someone that is well connected or wealthy, and there's this
[8:54] subconscious tendency to put that positive impression onto
[9:02] their moral value as well. And I think when we do that, we
[9:07] can sometimes really slip up. How do we navigate that?
[9:14] Awareness, I think is really important.
[9:17] I mean, yeah, I was researching a little bit about the
[9:19] psychology of this in the wake of the Epstein files and all of
[9:23] the information that's come out about people and the unexpected
[9:28] things that have come out about it and the shocks that people
[9:31] have had. And I think that being aware of
[9:35] these patterns is really important.
[9:36] So there's something, you know, like I mentioned earlier, we we
[9:39] sort of give, we equate these positive things to people's
[9:43] moral value. And we also have this
[9:44] understanding about, you know, the Halo effect.
[9:46] If somebody is good at one thing, then they're
[9:49] automatically going to be potentially good at other things
[9:51] or highly moral people. And that's just simply not the
[9:54] case. And because we like someone or
[9:56] like something that they're put out, we also have this tendency
[10:00] to assume that any kind of ethical misstep is a mistake
[10:05] will underplay in our minds. And we do that in relationships
[10:07] as well, right? We do that.
[10:09] We can sometimes do that in our personal relationships.
[10:14] And I think that that is human nature.
[10:18] We want to connect with people on that very real level, but we
[10:21] can definitely sort of fall foul of that instinct.
[10:25] And I was looking at this as well with regards to the way
[10:30] that we act around people. And I think it's fascinating
[10:35] because I was reading that a lot of us have this understanding of
[10:41] the world where things that are just are right and that that
[10:48] people will receive their comeuppance in the end, like the
[10:51] just world, like karma, karma. And, you know, I think sometimes
[10:57] that way of thinking can also lead us to be more vulnerable to
[11:02] not only being misled, but also into being dishonest ourselves.
[11:08] Because it was so interesting. I, I, I've had some really
[11:12] interesting research Dasha Keltner did around this, where
[11:18] essentially we, when we have a feeling that we are more
[11:23] powerful or that we are more successful, some of the empathy
[11:27] regions of our brain kind of switch off.
[11:30] So, you know, initially we could be thinking, wow, we're doing
[11:32] great things for the world, for the planet, for other people.
[11:35] And then the more power and success that we feel.
[11:38] He was doing interesting studies around sort of functional MRI
[11:41] scans that show that those kind of mirror neuronal pathways,
[11:45] that that show, you know, that we laugh when other people laugh
[11:47] or that we feel tense when other people feel tense.
[11:49] They kind of get switched off a little bit.
[11:53] And I think, again, that's a really important thing to be
[11:56] aware of, have an understanding of so that we can look at these
[12:00] patterns in ourselves and in other people.
[12:02] Wow. Yeah.
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[13:39] That's so interesting because I guess to me, and I could be
[13:43] completely wrong here and I have to be really careful of using
[13:47] this, but I've only used it once on the show before.
[13:50] But they seem to inherent from what I'm listening to certain
[13:53] traits like narcissism, right? Where you become more inflated
[13:57] and less connected to the kind of empathy of other people.
[14:00] Yes, I think, I think sometimes, yeah, you're right.
[14:03] So I think with the idea of around narcissism, I think it's
[14:07] considered to be sort of an early years trait or something
[14:11] that is essentially part of someone's personality.
[14:13] Whereas this idea of the increasing power causing reduced
[14:19] empathy is actually it's not necessarily an intrinsic
[14:22] personality trait. This kind of hubris is more
[14:26] something that can come out later as a result of these
[14:30] circumstances if it's not unchecked.
[14:32] Wow. So I think sometimes we bandy
[14:34] around words like, oh, they're narcissistic and actually it's
[14:38] not necessarily that. And also they can also
[14:40] fundamentally believe a lot of people that they are doing
[14:43] things correctly and, and right. And you know, this idea about
[14:47] the just Wells hypothesis, again, this is another
[14:49] psychological understanding of, you know, even if I do something
[14:53] that's a bit wrong, I know that on balance, it's going to be the
[14:57] right thing because I believe it's the right thing to do.
[15:01] And so you can, you can convince yourself that you're doing the
[15:05] right thing sometimes when you're causing harm.
[15:08] Yeah. So it's not that somebody is
[15:12] narcissistic, and power doesn't always necessarily equate to
[15:15] narcissism. It's that the more power you get
[15:19] and the less feedback you get about the things that you're
[15:22] doing that might harm other people, then the more you
[15:25] believe that you're doing the right thing and the less you
[15:28] feel the unconscious need to want to connect with other
[15:32] people on an empathic level because you feel more right.
[15:36] I guess you felt like you're more on a pedal stool at that
[15:37] point, right? Yes, well, exactly.
[15:40] And it's like you believe, you believe your own kind power,
[15:44] power, you believe your own persona.
[15:46] And the more polished that persona becomes, I think the
[15:50] harder it is to see through it even yourself.
[15:55] And that's one of the things that I think, oh, sorry, getting
[15:59] so excited, bashing the microphone.
[16:03] I think that's one of the things that I've really taken away from
[16:09] seeing stuff that Deepak Chopra wrote in his emails to Epstein.
[16:14] And the irony is he wrote an entire book about the shadow,
[16:18] you know, and he's doing all of the things that you would do to
[16:22] escape the shadow in the wake of these revelations.
[16:26] It's it's so interesting to me. Talk to me about the shadow,
[16:30] because Carl Jung, Carl Jung, I never say it's saying properly,
[16:33] talks about the shadow self a lot.
[16:35] And people who are interested in psychology would know his work,
[16:38] but others that don't. And you just mentioned that
[16:40] Deepak wrote a whole kind of book on the shadow.
[16:42] So this feels quite a resemblance of parts of
[16:45] themselves that they're kind of bringing up to the surface.
[16:48] Yeah, yes, it does. And so for what it's worth, I'm
[16:53] not really sure how you pronounce Carl Jung.
[16:56] I I say Jung, I feel like it's it seems more appropriate
[17:00] somehow. Carl Jung.
[17:01] The Berkman does it perfectly on the show when he comes on.
[17:05] Yeah, but I mean, his work obviously phenomenal.
[17:08] The idea that. So what is a shadow then?
[17:11] Shadow is really anything that we suppress or repress because
[17:15] we feel like it's unacceptable. And interestingly, it doesn't
[17:19] always have to be something objectively bad.
[17:22] Even traditionally you'd think of it as something bad, carnal
[17:28] instincts or negative thoughts or things that you would want to
[17:33] do to someone, malicious things. But it doesn't have to be that.
[17:38] Sometimes it could be something there's actually objectively
[17:41] good for you and others that you repress unconsciously as well.
[17:46] You know, maybe some creative outlets, instincts, natural
[17:50] instincts that you might have about things, circumstances,
[17:53] people, and these shadows form early in our lives.
[17:58] And usually based on the research around this, it's from,
[18:04] you know, childhood patterns, parents, people that were around
[18:08] in our formative years, doesn't have to be parents, but
[18:11] obviously that's what you would probably associate with it most.
[18:14] And the more harsh the attitudes that you come across when you
[18:18] express these parts of yourself, the more negativity you then
[18:23] hold towards these things, especially when they are seen in
[18:28] other people. Got you.
[18:29] And you, you almost, it's like you sort of ignore those parts
[18:32] of yourself and then you get more angry with others for
[18:35] showing those parts because those are the parts that you are
[18:38] most ashamed of in yourself. And I think it's fascinating.
[18:44] And there's something called the golden shadow, which is, again,
[18:47] what I've just alluded to, the idea that you repress sometimes
[18:51] things that are actually objectively really useful or
[18:54] important or creative or things that you, you know, would do
[19:01] really good in the world if you were to actually bring out of
[19:03] yourself. And I think that is one of the
[19:05] things that actually brings about this idea of hero worship.
[19:09] It's like things about yourself that you've denied or not even
[19:12] aware of. Compassion.
[19:13] Exactly. Yeah.
[19:15] So things that you've denied in yourself or that you're not
[19:17] really consciously aware of yourself, you put on that other
[19:20] persons like wow, they're so amazing and you put them on this
[19:24] massive pedestal whilst also denying those things about
[19:29] yourself. Well, so how do you think?
[19:31] So you mentioned Deepak Chakra, though we kind of touched on the
[19:34] Epstein files. I think this was a big thing
[19:35] that ignited us to want to have this conversation.
[19:38] Yes, yes it did. And he wrote a whole book on the
[19:42] shadow. So kind of looking at him from I
[19:46] guess like a psychological lens, what do you think's kind of
[19:49] played out there in his behaviour?
[19:53] I think I come back to instinctively the idea that the
[19:59] more polished we are in our persona, the darker the Shadows
[20:02] become. I think that the Shadows get
[20:08] larger with success. I think that I think that
[20:15] sometimes it can be. You can have a sincere self
[20:18] delusion around your own shadow as well.
[20:22] I don't know what Deepak Chopra's.
[20:26] Understanding is of his behaviours, but there's a clear
[20:29] disparity between the private emails that he sends and the
[20:33] public persona that he brings. And I think that it's really
[20:40] hard for so many people who have essentially hero worshipped him
[20:44] to, to really kind of understand this or reconcile it in their
[20:50] minds. But essentially we are all human
[20:54] and we are all flawed and we all have parts of ourselves that we
[20:59] don't really like and that we would rather other people didn't
[21:01] see. And that's true for every single
[21:04] one of us. So I think when it comes to
[21:09] figures that have massively disappointed us because, you
[21:11] know, you expect almost bad behaviour from, well, I don't
[21:16] know, do you expect bad behaviour from billionaire
[21:18] businessman I, I do. Maybe that's something I need to
[21:21] unpack, but we don't expect it from spiritual gurus or doctors.
[21:28] Yeah, you know, we trust them. We are vulnerable with them.
[21:33] And I feel this really keenly. I know the privilege that it is
[21:37] that people come to me with their biggest fears, their their
[21:40] health concerns, their vulnerability, their lowest ebb.
[21:45] They come to people like me, and they have to be able to trust
[21:49] that. And so when you see doctors
[21:52] talking in this way and behaving in this way, it's so jarring.
[21:56] Yeah. For that reason.
[21:59] And yeah, I think I think it's important for us to really
[22:04] understand that, you know, we are all human and that sometimes
[22:07] the people with the biggest success, the the biggest
[22:10] protocols, the biggest platforms also have dark shadows that they
[22:16] have to deal with. And sometimes they don't.
[22:19] And just an awareness of that at least I think is important.
[22:24] And sometimes you can have an instinct on that.
[22:29] But even if you don't necessarily have an instinct on
[22:31] that, at least know they are human.
[22:33] You know, they, they have bodily functions.
[22:37] Yeah. They have desires.
[22:39] They have weak spots just like everybody else.
[22:45] As someone who has spent a long time studying the mind body
[22:48] connection, I'm constantly asked what do I use to track my health
[22:52] since April? You've probably seen if you're
[22:54] watching the show, me wearing a piece of tech on my arm and that
[22:57] is no watch because I genuinely believe it has been one of the
[23:01] most thoughtful and mind aware pieces of tech that you can
[23:04] wear. Unlike most wearables that focus
[23:06] just on your steps or your sleep, No watch is a bit
[23:09] different and gives you real time insights into your nervous
[23:12] system. The invisible engine that
[23:14] calibrates everything from your stress to your sleep, to your
[23:17] recovery, your rest, and ultimately your health.
[23:21] With its stress recovery metric, it doesn't just show you how
[23:23] long you were stressed for, but also how long you were covered.
[23:26] It shows you your homeostatus. And that to me is where real
[23:30] health begins. And I think it's all something
[23:32] that we're craving. And most importantly, it does
[23:35] this without dragging you back to your phone, because that
[23:37] motion just depletes you. It delivers meaningful health
[23:41] insights to you only when something genuinely matters,
[23:45] using AI to turn complex signals into clarity that you can
[23:48] understand. And in just five days, it
[23:50] calibrates to your body and creates your personalized health
[23:53] fingerprint. You can try it for 30 days
[23:56] completely free. And if you're curious, now's the
[23:59] time because they're giving you guys 15% off with my code LW
[24:04] BW15. If you head to know watch.com
[24:07] and you guys know as listeners of Flip Well be well and this
[24:10] whole community that understanding yourself in the
[24:12] most mindful way is one of the most powerful things that you
[24:16] can do for your health. And this little gadget helps you
[24:19] on your journey completely. I think that's the thing.
[24:25] I think it's not blaming or shaming.
[24:29] It's a discussion around. I think it's just an interesting
[24:31] discussion around what we are seeing as health professionals
[24:34] in the sector kind of unfold and unravel in front of our eyes.
[24:39] And I'm not religious, so this isn't meant to be a religious
[24:44] comment, but I found this really interesting just because of what
[24:47] you were saying. There's a passage passage in the
[24:49] Bible. And I don't want this to feel
[24:50] like I'm making a religious statement here at all, but I
[24:53] thought it was really interesting where I said be
[24:55] aware of false prophets who come to you in sheep's clothing but
[24:58] inwardly are ravenous wolves. So powerful, so powerful.
[25:05] Oh, that's giving me goosebumps. Right.
[25:09] And it's, it's, I think that one of the things that makes us so
[25:13] vulnerable to this is that we think other people think the way
[25:16] we do. Yeah.
[25:18] And some people don't. Some people, we actually don't
[25:22] think the same way we do. Some people are more power
[25:26] hungry than others. Some people are less attuned to
[25:30] other people's emotional worlds than we are.
[25:33] And so, and we also naturally blame ourselves if we if
[25:37] something goes wrong or if something happens where we've
[25:40] been exploited or we've been taken advantage of, we think,
[25:43] oh, what's wrong with me? Yeah, we self blame.
[25:45] Yes, but there are actually people in the world that have
[25:49] less scruples than you do, or maybe even, you know, less
[25:54] scruples than they used to have. And I think it's so difficult to
[25:59] navigate that. And I think, you know, with
[26:00] regards to the FTM files, in a way, there's a part of me that
[26:04] does feel we need to call it out.
[26:08] Yeah. And we need to ask people to be
[26:13] accountable, at least at the very least ask them to accept
[26:18] that there is a level of behaviour that is wrong.
[26:23] And that accountability, I think, has been lacking.
[26:26] You know, the Epstein files and the whole kind of thing about, I
[26:28] mean, like, we could talk for hours about the Epstein files,
[26:30] but I think it's a map. It's a map of how power works,
[26:33] how psychology works, how proximity to influence works,
[26:37] how it can silence people and how vulnerable people are often
[26:42] just left by the wayside. And that really bothers me.
[26:46] Well, I think that's what we're seeing even in kind of the
[26:49] aftermath of the Epstein files. People are speaking up.
[26:51] I think people in our sector are speaking up online about it.
[26:55] And we've, you know, really tried to navigate this
[26:57] conversation beforehand to think about, like, you know, how deep
[27:00] are we going to go? Where are we going to go?
[27:01] What are we going to speak about?
[27:02] How do we formulate this type of open conversation in a way
[27:07] that's, you know, not judgmental but informative for people.
[27:14] And it can also feel quite terrifying coming up.
[27:18] And two women taking on essentially the Epstein files.
[27:23] Yes, yes, well, I mean, I wrote an article about all this in
[27:28] preparation really for this chat because I wanted to have I
[27:32] wanted to have my thoughts in a way that felt coherent because,
[27:38] you know, it is it is a challenging area.
[27:40] And I think there are so many things that feed into why this
[27:45] happened and why it probably still happens in various ways.
[27:52] And even now, like you say, I don't think there's been a
[27:55] massive amount of consequences, certainly in the US, You know,
[27:59] we saw Prince Andrew or he's not a Prince anymore, is he?
[28:03] We saw him get arrested, which I have to admit did give me a
[28:07] sense of. Pleasure.
[28:08] I felt so. Pleased.
[28:12] And then I felt bad for feeling pleased.
[28:14] How crazy is that? Such misfortune can't.
[28:17] Even unwrap that psychology. I know that is madness.
[28:22] So this is The thing is, I think just to be aware sometimes of
[28:26] how we feel about things and where that comes from.
[28:30] And the parts of ourselves that we feel embarrassed by or
[28:34] ashamed by. And the parts of ourselves that
[28:36] we need to actually begin to love in order to be able to be a
[28:41] functional human being. Yeah.
[28:43] And I think that's true for every single one of us, even
[28:46] spiritual gurus like Deepak Chopra.
[28:48] Yeah. Well, I think the thing with,
[28:51] with this landscape is and I and I, and I don't want to kind of
[28:53] make this against men because there's so amazing men out there
[28:57] that also support women's rights and equality in the voice.
[29:00] And they're very balanced and they want to kind of, you know,
[29:03] bring this conversation and support women.
[29:07] But I guess a lot of the stuff that we're seeing in the science
[29:10] sector and the health sector is involving more conversations
[29:14] from men and less from women. And I feel that the woman's
[29:17] voice gets diluted a lot in these conversations.
[29:21] Like, what's your perspective of this, kind of like looking at
[29:23] the landscape in the last kind of 10 years?
[29:24] Because I think the reason why this has all started is because
[29:27] of who's coming out in the Epstein files and the shock and
[29:30] the horror and the fear of seeing these names and what
[29:33] they're attached to. And as you said, they also hold
[29:35] an authoritative view, in fact, that they are treating people's
[29:38] health. You know, they're taking in
[29:41] really personal parts of people's lives and you wouldn't
[29:45] do that knowing that they were associated with this type of
[29:48] behavior. So already you feel a lot of
[29:50] fear and certainty in yourself of second guessing yourself, of
[29:54] maybe even self blame on why I really believe that person was
[29:58] all for this doing good, but potentially not.
[30:01] How do we kind of navigate this to help bring the woman's voices
[30:07] more into this conversation without the fear of being
[30:09] cancelled? How do we do that, Sarah?
[30:13] How do we need? I think I'm.
[30:15] Trying to do that right now. Yeah, I think, I think we have
[30:19] to. So.
[30:19] So I think discernment is really important and we have to try to
[30:24] avoid cynicism. I think actually, you know, for
[30:27] women, it's very easy to become cynical, isn't it?
[30:30] We've all had experiences where we have felt our boundaries have
[30:33] been crossed and that we had to be polite and that we had to be
[30:36] professional and that we had to be grateful.
[30:39] And that's how we are. So that's how we are wired from
[30:43] a very young age. And being aware of that is
[30:49] important. Without being angry about that,
[30:54] trying to let go of that, but either in a way, actually, I
[30:57] think anger that has been well considered and thoughtful is not
[31:02] necessarily harmful. It can fuel us.
[31:05] The worst anger is that's suppressed.
[31:07] Exactly. Yeah.
[31:09] And so discernment over cynicism, perhaps understanding
[31:14] that we can take a step back and we can analyse behaviours and we
[31:17] can maybe think about, you know, what we know in our brains to be
[31:21] true about a situation. What we feel in our hearts based
[31:26] on our experience and what we feel in our gut, which is
[31:29] difficult to sometimes even sort of understand if you haven't
[31:33] been used to feeling into that. But I do believe that a lot of
[31:38] the bodily sensations that we have can be clues.
[31:41] But it's important for us not to ignore.
[31:43] Doesn't always mean that somebody in front of us is a bad
[31:45] person, but it means that we are picking up on something either
[31:48] in ourselves or in them that we need to be aware of.
[31:52] And I suppose if you wanted to try to look at it just purely
[31:56] from a logical point of view, there are a few things I think
[31:59] people can do to protect themselves from being, I guess,
[32:03] taken advantage of by people that you would trust and that
[32:05] have let you down, especially when it comes to spiritual gurus
[32:10] or big important doctors or people online that have got a
[32:14] big following. And I think it's important to
[32:16] look at the gap actually between the teaching and the real life.
[32:19] Like if you have the opportunity to actually meet the person you
[32:22] know, are they polite to the people around them?
[32:27] Do they give you an idea through their small behaviours that they
[32:32] are open to critique, that they can tolerate being challenged,
[32:37] that they are kind to someone that has no power?
[32:43] You know, how do they treat people?
[32:45] And that you, you can see the difference sometimes between
[32:48] somebody who you think, Oh my gosh, they're so amazing and
[32:51] then you meet them and it's just a massive disappointment.
[32:55] I know that. Because I sent you a voice note
[32:59] after I interviewed somebody. You did.
[33:02] And that person ended up being in the Epstein files, yes.
[33:06] And we never had it, Yes. And that was the hardest moment
[33:09] of my, I feel if I'll be well, actually, because I recorded and
[33:16] I just had a really heavy dark feeling.
[33:18] But I was also, I think they say it's really sad and they say
[33:21] never meet your heroes, right? And there's been a lot of heroes
[33:24] I've met on this show that have made me love them even more.
[33:27] And you can feel their energy and I've had them back on the
[33:31] show and they've inspired me and actually they've become my
[33:33] mentors, which to me is completely wild because you
[33:36] never think you meet someone and your heroes and then they become
[33:38] your mentor. And that's a whole life changing
[33:40] experience. But obviously we've interviewed
[33:43] so many people on here now and you can't always get everyone to
[33:45] be how you hope them to be. And there was that one
[33:49] experience when I voice noted you because I knew you were a
[33:52] fan of them too. And I've always noted you about
[33:55] the excitement that I was going to have them on.
[33:58] And I felt so let down. And it was a really hard
[34:03] decision to not put that episode out because everything in me
[34:07] kind of started to question myself, was I doing something
[34:10] wrong? Like was I not prepared enough?
[34:15] But actually I was too compassionate in my in my
[34:20] viewpoint actually, like my boundaries kind of did go more
[34:23] so in that because I was trying to move around this person so
[34:26] much and actually there was just pure rudeness and it completely
[34:32] conflicted everything I thought this person was teaching.
[34:37] And so I made a decision to not put that out.
[34:41] Well, that's a brave decision in and of itself, especially if you
[34:43] want your podcast to grow and you know that that person has a
[34:46] massive following. What?
[34:50] What made you what made you stick with your gut on that?
[34:55] I think it was odd. I think I I messaged you first
[34:58] about a voice note, which made it feel that it was real.
[35:03] Because I think I have a tendency in the past to not
[35:07] actually speak up about how I feel in that moment.
[35:10] To not actually, even if that person disagrees or agrees with
[35:13] what I'm saying, who I'm sharing that with.
[35:15] I think the tendency for me naturally was to be like, it
[35:18] must be me because I see myself lower than that person who's on.
[35:22] So that's my fault. But actually it was so obvious
[35:25] that that wasn't the case in this situation.
[35:28] But I think I felt so disappointed and so Jarred by
[35:31] the whole thing that I didn't want to do a disservice to my
[35:35] audience. And the whole reason I started
[35:36] the show was to translate ethical health advice and
[35:40] important conversations. And that felt to me really
[35:45] unethical and how that person was treating like the value set
[35:48] of what they had. I can always account someone's
[35:51] having a bad day. And I think we all have them.
[35:53] I have them. I'm sure I've turned up on
[35:55] podcasts and they're like, she's a nightmare.
[35:58] But 90% except. When you're asking for granola.
[36:05] 90% of the time I think I always try and do my actions by my
[36:08] values. And there was, it was, you can
[36:12] see the difference of someone having a bad day and somebody
[36:15] not living authentically to who they persona to be.
[36:18] Yeah. And so something within me just
[36:20] knew that the the advice that I was delivering to my audience
[36:24] wasn't authentic and actually going to be helpful.
[36:27] Yeah. So I just made.
[36:29] But it was hard. It was hard to cut someone who I
[36:31] knew would give me leverage on the show because again, the only
[36:34] way you survive as a podcast is by having people that listen and
[36:38] engage and want to listen to the person that's on your show.
[36:42] So it's like a double edged sword.
[36:44] Yeah, yeah, it is. And the fact that you decided
[36:47] not to air it is very powerful and it must have felt very
[36:51] validating to find out later. You sent it to me.
[36:55] Yes, I wanted you to feel validated.
[36:59] You have to trust yourself. You have to trust yourself.
[37:02] Yeah. And that's something, again, I
[37:03] think I feel so passionately about because I have so often
[37:06] not trusted myself as well. You know, wanting to see the
[37:10] best in somebody, wanting to think, OK, it's it's me, not
[37:12] them. And objectively speaking, that's
[37:16] actually it's just as likely to be them, if not more likely in
[37:19] some cases. Yeah, yeah.
[37:22] So that's a good that I think that's a good piece of advice
[37:24] that people can take is to actually watch out for the
[37:27] difference between a public persona and how they treat
[37:29] people with no power. If you have the ability to do
[37:32] that, you don't always. I think another thing is think
[37:38] about who they surround themselves with.
[37:39] I mean, it's not necessarily an ironclad indicator, but if
[37:45] someone's constantly name dropping and constantly kind of
[37:50] interested in their legacy over anything else, that kind of
[37:53] gives you a clue. So I think real wisdom is often
[37:55] a bit more humble. It has a bit more humility about
[37:59] it. And so that's something to be
[38:01] aware of in in ourselves and in others.
[38:08] Trusting your gut, like you said, just trusting yourself
[38:11] actually a bit more, something that we are conditioned not to
[38:14] do. And I think that's why the whole
[38:17] me too movement back in 2027 felt so powerful for so many
[38:21] women is because they began to realize, oh, my experience is
[38:25] not the same as the men around me that I love or my children or
[38:31] my parents, my sons, my, my, my father, my, my experience isn't
[38:36] of the world and how I navigate it and how I move through it is
[38:39] entirely different from theirs. And they have no clue what goes
[38:42] on. Good men have no clue how bad
[38:47] men treat women. Yeah.
[38:49] Because they are not doing it themselves.
[38:51] Yeah. And that was mind blowing for so
[38:53] many people. You know, I started to open up
[38:57] conversations around that, as many women did.
[39:00] And the good men in my life were just completely flummoxed by it,
[39:03] confused, because that's something that obviously they
[39:06] would never experience. So I think having conversations
[39:10] about it is important. And that's why the whole Me Too
[39:12] movement, I think became so cathartic for so many women is
[39:17] because you're just so used to just keeping it to yourself or
[39:19] thinking, OK, maybe it's me. And assuming that everybody has
[39:24] that same world view, what? Was your response to the sub
[39:28] stack article that you put out on the Epstein files with
[39:32] spiritual gurus and doctors? It was.
[39:35] Overall, very positive. And I did have this.
[39:37] I had this sense as I was writing it because I said to you
[39:39] just now, I wrote it to gather my thoughts for today.
[39:42] And I felt it was a very cathartic piece.
[39:45] I was like, yes, this feels great to write.
[39:47] And then I pressed publish. And then I had this sense of
[39:50] anxiety falling over me thinking, Oh my gosh, is that
[39:53] how is this going to land? Are people going to be
[39:56] judgmental in some way? I couldn't sleep.
[39:59] Wow. Being that vulnerable because I
[40:02] speak on podcasts mostly about Wellness, nutrition.
[40:05] I like to speak a bit about spirituality because I am a
[40:07] spiritual person, but I never really have to talk about stuff
[40:14] that's happened to me or things that I've experienced because
[40:17] often I send to my patients. So for me, it was like, this is
[40:21] a bit scary, but I'm glad I wrote it and there was a lot of
[40:28] ositive feedback and people contacted me who I haven't heard
[40:30] from Indiana years. Well, people who I didn't even
[40:33] know read my sub stack contacted me.
[40:37] So many, so many supportive people and it just made me feel
[40:41] really. Nice.
[40:42] Actually did any of them agree? Did any of them say like?
[40:45] I've experienced this too. Oh, definitely, yeah.
[40:48] I've had, and I had other doctors reach out to me and say
[40:50] this happened to me as well, this conference or in that
[40:54] situation. And it feels horrible.
[40:56] And I'm really glad you've talked about it.
[40:58] And I've had, I had one man message me angry on my behalf
[41:03] because he'd had a bad experience with somebody that I
[41:07] had written about saying, and he treated me really badly.
[41:10] They, you know, they because he didn't have any power, right?
[41:14] He wasn't somebody that could be particularly important.
[41:18] So they treated them badly. And so obviously that's not
[41:21] necessarily for for women. I think we experienced that
[41:24] perhaps more in a sexual way because we are women.
[41:29] And so if you have someone who's a powerful man and a
[41:33] heterosexual, then that perhaps is the way that it comes across.
[41:36] But if you're, you know, a man without influence or power, then
[41:40] it's, you know, probably purely more just disrespect or putting
[41:45] them to one side, casting them aside.
[41:49] But yeah, I, it was, it was a, it was a very powerful, it felt,
[41:52] it felt powerful in the sense that I do think it helped people
[42:00] because I also wanted to offer people the takeaways, the
[42:02] important things to trust. And that's why, you know, in our
[42:06] conversation today, I'm talking about at least understanding
[42:09] what does your gut, heart, and brain tell.
[42:10] You don't necessarily always have to act on everything that
[42:13] you feel, know, and experience, but have an awareness of it,
[42:17] trust it, listen to it, reflect on it, and don't immediately
[42:21] discount your experience as being something that's your
[42:23] problem. I think, and I don't know if you
[42:26] agree this, I obviously I mentioned that I've become
[42:29] better at trusting my own instinct, but I felt completely
[42:33] lost in that for 10 years because of the conflicting
[42:35] advice that was online. And maybe I was felt like I was
[42:39] falling behind. I felt like, I think also when
[42:42] you start studying you realize how much you don't know.
[42:46] Yes. And that also overwhelmed me.
[42:49] So I was like, wow, people are so strong in their opinions but
[42:52] I feel like I've opened account worms and now I kind of doubt
[42:55] everything. Well, that's a sign that you've
[42:57] got more knowledge than them. That's the irony.
[42:59] The whole Dunning Kruger effect. You know, somebody so sure of
[43:02] themselves and their position that they will not be moved is a
[43:05] sign that they probably haven't read enough research or they
[43:07] probably haven't actually reflected on it enough.
[43:10] But I think like until I studied science, that was completely
[43:14] blivis to me because these people were so strong.
[43:17] And now we have such big camps in different sectors and strong
[43:23] narratives on each one. And so to then try and trust
[43:27] your instinct and your gut on what feels right becomes
[43:30] complete overwhelm because you're having people stand so
[43:34] firmly with a spare and say this is correct.
[43:37] And so you end up becoming, maybe unconsciously, more
[43:40] influenced by this kind of spare that we find ourselves in.
[43:44] That's true. You kind of almost become
[43:46] paralysed by it, don't you? But that's that's a tactic as
[43:48] well used in in all sorts of situations that you put out.
[43:52] In fact, in a way, I read about this online.
[43:55] There's an attorney that in America was talking about.
[43:57] Even the way that the Department of Justice released the Epstein
[43:59] files was a almost like a chaos tactic.
[44:02] You release 3 billion pieces of information, everybody's like,
[44:04] oh, what do I do with this? Yeah, because.
[44:07] You're going to go through all of them.
[44:09] No one has that time. Exactly.
[44:10] You, just you. So you're paralysed into
[44:12] indecision and inaction. And I think it's important for
[44:17] us to take a step back and to be aware that that is something
[44:20] that is that we're all prone to to experiencing and to actually,
[44:24] again, just sit in quietness as much as you can in those quiet
[44:30] moments, feel into what feels right.
[44:34] And in terms of the science, actually, that can itself
[44:39] sometimes backfire because your instinct on something could be
[44:42] wrong. So it's important for you to
[44:44] actually take in other viewpoints and look at what
[44:47] study evidence is showing you. So yeah, it's discernment again,
[44:51] it comes back to discernment, doesn't it?
[44:53] Being discerning, recognizing your own shortfalls as best you
[44:58] can, but also recognizing your own strengths and not
[45:02] downplaying them. And I think when it comes to
[45:06] science and spirituality, they, they, they can intersect.
[45:09] And I like to try to bring those two things together in my life.
[45:14] But I think in a way, our instincts can sometimes still
[45:22] lead us astray. And when you've got someone like
[45:28] Chopra or other gurus talking about the things like non
[45:32] attachment, we can find ourselves lost in a quagmire of
[45:36] non feeling or non trusting ourselves and our own
[45:39] experiences. And I think if your guru or your
[45:42] teacher is very persuasive and there's no accountability around
[45:49] them, it would be so easy for ideas around oneness and how
[45:53] we're all connected to mean, Oh, well, I won't speak up about
[45:56] that or I won't take action about that.
[45:59] It's quite culty. Yeah, yeah.
[46:02] And that's, again, something that we are very susceptible to,
[46:06] especially if we're religious people or spiritual people.
[46:09] Yeah, we can become very easily swayed by that kind of thing.
[46:13] Yeah, well, this is how cults start forming very quickly.
[46:17] People sometimes even realize they're in a cult until it's too
[46:20] late. I'm trying to think of, there
[46:22] was an HBO documentary on the very famous cult that was out of
[46:25] LA, and I'm trying to think of what it's called now.
[46:29] And it was a very kind of a spiritual movement.
[46:31] And people ended up and it was huge famous celebrities in that
[46:35] were giving away their money and their lives and kind of just
[46:38] kind of transcending into this cult.
[46:42] And anyway, the guy he's run it now has gone to prison.
[46:44] He's got like life imprisonment. But it was a huge movement.
[46:47] It's a big kind of series on HBO just about how quickly this all
[46:51] kind of transpired. And they they they call him a
[46:54] full blown narcissist. And one of the guys who ended up
[46:57] taking him down, who I know, is releasing a documentary all
[47:00] about the like, the fears of narcissism in powerful places.
[47:05] Oh, it's so interesting. I think we have to come back to
[47:08] teachers that center our own development and well-being above
[47:13] them being right. Yeah.
[47:17] And I think it's important to trust that if somebody, if there
[47:21] is no sense of accountability, then that's that's a bit of a
[47:26] red flag, isn't it? And it, I think, I think that
[47:33] feminist ways of being spiritual are actually sometimes a bit
[47:37] different. Let me explain what I mean.
[47:40] I think when you have teachers and gurus that talk about the
[47:44] importance of non attachment, it can almost, if you're really
[47:49] making an effort to, to sort of not be attached to outcomes, it
[47:52] can also lead you to not being attached to people, people or
[47:58] responsibilities, you know? And by non attachment do you
[48:01] mean more like a stoicism way of thinking?
[48:03] Stoic ways of thinking like I will love but I will not form an
[48:07] attachment to an outcome that non attachment aim.
[48:13] The aim of a lot of spiritual teachers to to be you know to to
[48:18] have complete equanimity when it comes to outcomes.
[48:22] Nothing being right, nothing being wrong, it just being which
[48:31] it gives us a lot of comfort, this idea that we can be in a
[48:36] state of pure love that we do not expect of others in the way
[48:42] that we would if we were just forming relationships in terms
[48:44] of attachments. Like you will do this for me and
[48:46] I will do this for you and you will not leave me.
[48:49] And my identity is around this relationship or this thing
[48:53] that's kind of an attached way of living.
[48:56] And a lot of these spiritual philosophies are advising us to
[49:01] let go of all of that and to live in love and to live without
[49:06] judgement, which is which is helpful and is important, but
[49:14] it's not necessarily how power structures work in the world.
[49:18] And if we are making huge efforts to live this way against
[49:22] our natural instincts sometimes, then it can also lead us to make
[49:26] decisions that are actually know the best interests of community,
[49:29] family, loving actions. We abandoned our
[49:32] responsibilities. So yeah, I think I think
[49:40] matriarchal ways of embracing spirituality would emphasize
[49:47] loving connections and community and nature as well as ideas of
[49:54] non attachment. Because I think sometimes if you
[49:58] are so caught up in not feeling things because you're above all
[50:03] that, it's not actually truth and reality as we live it in
[50:07] this world, on this planet. No, that doesn't feel like we're
[50:10] living in 2026 at all, no. You can live this aesthetic
[50:14] lifestyle and go and live in a cave and be all spiritual, but
[50:18] what if you've got a wife and kids at home that you've
[50:20] basically just left to fend for themselves?
[50:24] I mean, that's not great either. No, and that's something, Oh, I
[50:28] mean, I don't want to offend anybody, but I do believe, I
[50:31] think, I think the modern day Buddha did that.
[50:33] I think it. Oh, really?
[50:35] Yeah, I think he had a family and then he just went off and
[50:37] found Nirvana under the Bodhi tree.
[50:40] I might, might need to check, Fact Check that.
[50:43] But I do find it interesting that a lot of these esoteric
[50:46] practices, useful though they are, if not integrated in terms
[50:52] of these ideas of shadow, can lead to harm sometimes.
[50:57] It's interesting, isn't it? I probably should Fact Check
[51:01] this. We need to do some fact checks,
[51:04] don't we? We need to do some.
[51:05] Fact checks. But as I was talking about this
[51:07] today, you know, I was really trying to get to the intention
[51:09] of what this conversation is going to be about.
[51:11] I was really trying to seal it in my brain of like, what is
[51:14] going to be the take away for the listener?
[51:15] What conversation are we opening up?
[51:17] What are we trying to create here in our in our narrative of
[51:21] discussion? And as I was kind of like
[51:24] talking through it in my mind and, and with my team, one of my
[51:28] team said, well, it's interesting because you can have
[51:31] people that have great influence and do great things in the
[51:34] world, but behind closed doors, they're a very different person.
[51:37] For instance, and this is where the Fact Check comes in because
[51:39] I didn't Fact Check this Martin Luther King, incredible what he
[51:44] did in swirls, incredible for what he stood for.
[51:46] But apparently before he died, he punched his girlfriend in the
[51:49] face. Right.
[51:52] OK. Yeah, I, I.
[51:56] How do we break that down? Like how it's a you see the
[52:00] concept that I'm trying to. Yes, yes.
[52:02] Like how are we consistent in our behaviours in private and in
[52:06] public? Yeah, I do believe that is
[52:08] shadow integration work. It has to be.
[52:12] We need to be aware of our impulses, of our emotions, of
[52:17] how events shape us and our behaviours in order to moderate
[52:22] those behaviours and bring them into sync.
[52:25] So I don't think we should abandoned our darkest part.
[52:29] We have to integrate it, we have to accept and love it.
[52:33] And that is the crux of your message.
[52:34] Of course it is Sarah, the whole idea of it.
[52:37] But it's hard to put into practice because these are the
[52:39] things that we try to escape from from the moment that we're
[52:42] born. Right.
[52:43] It does say here Martin Luther King engaged in a verbal dispute
[52:49] with his girlfriend. There is something that he did.
[52:52] There is something that that is absolutely not true.
[52:54] So I have to just wanted to put that.
[52:56] Yeah, it was good. Fact Check.
[52:57] Some are saying it hasn't happened and some are saying
[53:02] such claims are widely considered to be rumours and
[53:04] allegations, some of which are spread by the FBI in an in an
[53:07] effort to discredit him. So I will just say we don't know
[53:11] the truth on that. No.
[53:13] But I say my but my point around that is not to do with him, it's
[53:16] to do with the context of the persona versus the truth behind
[53:20] how their actions are at home. Yeah.
[53:22] And you know, we, I think it's the, it's the integration of our
[53:27] deepest desires that we, if we can do that, then we can be a
[53:33] lot more coherent as a person. Our public persona won't
[53:37] actually be too different. I mean, obviously we have to be
[53:40] discerning again with what we share.
[53:43] You know, I'm not going to come on a public podcast and talk
[53:45] about all the things that I have ever done that I feel or I wish
[53:49] I hadn't done this or said that because I don't think that's
[53:52] very healthy thing to do. You know, there are situations
[53:55] in which you can be vulnerable and there's situations in which
[53:59] we we know we have to protect ourselves and our image of
[54:05] ourselves. But it's important for us to do
[54:07] this work, especially in our closest relationships and with
[54:12] our friendships in order for us to actually be consistent with
[54:16] our value set when we're out and about and in the world.
[54:19] And I think that that is the most important thing.
[54:22] Yeah, I agree. I think values are spoken about
[54:26] and virtues are spoken about quite flippantly in
[54:29] relationships. And then you have culture
[54:30] settings within companies that have like different cultures.
[54:33] And do you fit into that culture?
[54:36] But interesting, when you kind of look at people of power,
[54:38] they're not really, they're not as represented.
[54:41] Some are amazingly, I think Obama did a really incredible
[54:44] job at at doing that and creating his value set at home
[54:47] as well as in when he was in office.
[54:50] But why do you think that's maybe not more shown to certain
[54:53] people, but we still respect them?
[54:56] Why do I think it's not shown? Why do I think that people are
[55:00] able to get away with being different?
[55:02] Well, because people don't always see people's private
[55:04] lives, and it's easier to ignore these things, and it's hard for
[55:08] us to see our own blind spots. Yeah, I think it's true that our
[55:13] personal relationships, our parents and our children are
[55:16] probably our biggest mirrors to the where we need to do work.
[55:19] Yeah. And that's where we can start in
[55:23] our own lives so that we can also have a logical, heart
[55:29] centred, gut centred approach when we are seeing other people
[55:33] and how they go about their lives, doing that work for
[55:36] ourselves. And that's why I suppose non
[55:39] judgement comes in, because we have to, we have to integrate
[55:43] our own blind spots, our own bits that we wish we could get
[55:48] rid of. We all have them.
[55:50] Exactly. We all have that, and it's not
[55:53] always the same thing, but I think the things that probably
[55:57] trigger us at the most are the things that we need to work on
[56:01] as well. So yes, it can feel quite
[56:06] complicated, but really what it comes down to is conscious
[56:10] discernment and integration. OK, so we mentioned earlier at
[56:16] the very beginning, you know, billionaires and we, we sweeped
[56:20] over that quite quickly. But it made me think about Bill
[56:22] Gates again. He's obviously been in the
[56:26] Epstein files as well, so it feels quite relevant to bring
[56:28] him up. He has probably saved millions
[56:31] of lives through global health funding.
[56:33] Like he has funded a lot of different things.
[56:35] And he's actually now stepped in to The Who since Trump has
[56:38] pulled all the funding. Bill Gates is now becoming the
[56:41] primary funder of the World Health Organization.
[56:44] But I say that with a but because at the same time, people
[56:48] feel deeply uncomfortable about the influence of an unelected
[56:53] billionaire having so much influence over medicine.
[56:58] So we feel like there's like 2 truths, Sir, Right.
[57:00] At one point he's kind of helping, yeah.
[57:03] But at the other time, there's a huge amount of influence from
[57:06] one individual. So how do you kind of look at
[57:10] that landscape as a health professional?
[57:12] I find it, I find it really challenging because I think that
[57:16] nobody should be that rich and nobody should be that powerful
[57:20] because I do believe it warps our sense of self and reality.
[57:24] And I'm glad that that who is getting funded.
[57:28] And yes, it's wonderful when powerful people do good things
[57:34] and that goodness can extend far beyond what we could imagine.
[57:37] And that's, that's great. So I'm all for that.
[57:41] But I do believe that accountability structures are
[57:44] vital in this world that we live in because we are human, we are
[57:48] fallible, and our decisions are not always based on the public
[57:53] interest and sometimes based on our own interests and the things
[57:57] that that we think are important, which is sometimes
[57:58] different from what other people think are important.
[58:01] So I, I think accountability in public office, in power
[58:06] structures is vital. And actually, now I think about
[58:10] it, that's actually a very matriarchal way of looking at
[58:13] the world having power that is kind of stretched out among more
[58:18] than one person having accountability, having sort of
[58:24] structures that centre more than one opinion, I think is vital.
[58:30] And that that's important for all the organisations I think
[58:34] that that provide medical assistance guidelines and
[58:41] dietary guidelines. Maybe we've talked for ages, oh
[58:44] gosh, haven't even got into dietary guidelines, but you, you
[58:47] need to have different voices, different expert voices and
[58:53] accountability really important. It's hard because I do feel, and
[58:57] maybe it's because I'm, this is the field that I'm in that I see
[59:01] a lot more. You know, we just gasp at
[59:03] dietary guidelines. Some people might not even
[59:06] realise why we discussed the dietary guidelines.
[59:08] You know, there's been a big controversy about the American
[59:11] food pyramid this year and it being flipped upside down.
[59:13] And there's a lot of political interests and connections to the
[59:16] meat industry and so on and so forth.
[59:21] And it's caused a lot of controversy.
[59:23] And I, I guess this is my worry with health, but I guess this is
[59:26] with anything that has money in it.
[59:29] Is it for the best interests of the people or is it for the best
[59:32] interests of money? And that's a debate that I think
[59:36] is forever going to be going on. Yeah.
[59:39] And I think when people in power don't show any kind of humility
[59:45] or accountability, then that shows the rest of the world that
[59:49] they can do what they want without consequence.
[59:51] And I think that's very wrong. And that plays out in our own
[59:55] lives and then on, you know, on the on the world stage.
[1:00:00] I don't really have any solutions for that, sadly.
[1:00:03] I wish that we lived in a different kind of material world
[1:00:06] than we currently do. But I do believe the work starts
[1:00:09] at home. Yeah, I believe that if we can
[1:00:13] be discerning. With ourselves and with other
[1:00:16] people. Be self compassionate, integrate
[1:00:18] the things that we don't like about ourselves, that it will
[1:00:22] help us to show up in the world in a much more healthy way and
[1:00:27] bring people into our lives who have healthier patterns of
[1:00:31] being. And that needs to be done on a
[1:00:34] global scale. But we have to start with
[1:00:35] ourselves. Yeah.
[1:00:36] We have to start with what's right here, right now, in our
[1:00:39] homes, in our lives, the people that we surround ourselves with
[1:00:43] and the things that we hold most important.
[1:00:46] Yeah, I agree. And I think the reason why that
[1:00:49] is so critical is because the moments where I was more swayed
[1:00:53] by influence and power dynamics and people I would listen to or
[1:00:58] follow, it's because I didn't have that in myself.
[1:01:01] Yeah. So for me, it was like, oh,
[1:01:03] these people must be trustworthy.
[1:01:05] And so you naturally have that pool of dynamic of wanting to
[1:01:08] follow because you want to be like that person, right?
[1:01:11] As opposed to actually believing it within yourself.
[1:01:13] And I do think that's like a self development kind of process
[1:01:16] that you go through. But when I think you do become
[1:01:19] quite sure of yourself and that's kind of maybe the, the
[1:01:23] more work that you've done or the more research that you've
[1:01:25] kind of gone into your area and go, no, actually I kind of do
[1:01:28] disagree with that. And I can hold my opinion and
[1:01:30] that can also be true is a really important stage to get
[1:01:34] to. I think the fear that I have is
[1:01:36] that a lot of this praise on vulnerable people who aren't
[1:01:41] aware that they're being influenced.
[1:01:42] Yeah, you're right, it does. So I guess what can we do about
[1:01:47] that? What do we do?
[1:01:48] We have to put out voices that are a bit more measured, a bit
[1:01:51] more nuanced. We have to put different sources
[1:01:55] of information out there for people to to be able to look at
[1:01:59] and hopefully evaluate for themselves.
[1:02:01] But I think the important thing is to actually bring people
[1:02:03] again, back-to-back to themselves.
[1:02:07] We can lose ourselves in looking to other people and I don't know
[1:02:13] whether that's always from this so-called golden shadow or
[1:02:17] things that we've repressed or we just don't trust ourselves or
[1:02:20] it's easier to to trust someone who seems confident.
[1:02:23] But we have to come back to what's important to us and what
[1:02:29] we feel when we're around somebody just as much as the
[1:02:34] discernment that we use our brains for when we understand
[1:02:36] why do we feel this way? So, you know, when it comes to
[1:02:40] stuff like the Epstein files, it's a complete, as I said to
[1:02:43] you earlier, it's a complete map of, of psychology and power
[1:02:46] structures as they currently exist.
[1:02:48] And I think that that needs to change and.
[1:02:51] Do you think it will? I hope it will.
[1:02:54] I remain hopeful. I mean, the way the world's
[1:02:59] looking right now, it's literally like chaos unleashed.
[1:03:05] Yeah. So I like to think that the arc
[1:03:10] of change is overall going to be positive and that good people
[1:03:14] will stand up and speak the truth.
[1:03:20] And I hope that conversations like this will help people to do
[1:03:22] that too, actually. Yeah, me too.
[1:03:26] Good on us. Well, we try, don't we?
[1:03:28] We try. I'm so interested to see the the
[1:03:33] comments on this actually to see what resonates to see, you know,
[1:03:38] because I haven't wanted to. I am a big believer in the
[1:03:42] Epstein files was such a big thing.
[1:03:44] I am a big believer and also giving people the benefit, the
[1:03:46] doubt in such certain situations.
[1:03:48] And I also I'm going to swim the pendulum the other way.
[1:03:52] And I am also worried about people that get called out,
[1:03:54] maybe rather that haven't been as kind of, you know, heavily
[1:04:00] disregarded in the same respect as these guys have been.
[1:04:03] You know, these have done very wrongdoings in everyone's eyes,
[1:04:06] but you know, sometimes with health information, if someone's
[1:04:09] maybe got something a bit wrong or they're a bit confused or
[1:04:12] whatever. But the intent isn't bad.
[1:04:14] I also fear that there's platforms that are literally
[1:04:17] just trying to take people down. And that also fit worries me
[1:04:21] because it's kind of like you can norm.
[1:04:23] I can try and normally see if there's a good intent behind
[1:04:26] certain people. And sometimes I feel like others
[1:04:29] are just out to get people. Yeah.
[1:04:31] And that I also feel was unhealthy.
[1:04:34] I agree with you. It's that whole cancel culture,
[1:04:36] isn't it? So I don't like to indulge in
[1:04:41] that because I feel like it brings out the worst parts of
[1:04:44] ourselves to do that same. And I think I can see why people
[1:04:53] do it and why people feel like they're doing it for the right
[1:04:57] reasons. So they have this whole kind of
[1:05:00] moral high horse about it. You know, I'm saving people, I'm
[1:05:03] helping people and they and they are.
[1:05:08] But I do value, I value discernment when it comes to how
[1:05:13] you go about it. OK.
[1:05:16] And I value kindness, but I also, as I say, I think it's
[1:05:22] important to, I think it shows more integrity to, you know,
[1:05:29] reach out to somebody. Message them directly.
[1:05:33] Yeah, if you can. But again, it's hard for us to
[1:05:38] know other people's intentions because we project our
[1:05:42] intentions onto them. Yes, that's true.
[1:05:46] So much projection happening, we just.
[1:05:48] Project everything like what am I doing?
[1:05:50] Who am I? But if you believe, if you
[1:05:54] believe that in general people are good and in general they are
[1:05:57] wanting to do the right thing, then it is consistent with that
[1:06:00] to reach out to them and say, oh, by the way, did you know or
[1:06:03] I thought you'd be interested to see this rather than
[1:06:05] automatically assuming the worst.
[1:06:07] And I think a lot of the time when you're doing this calling
[1:06:09] out, you're automatically assuming the worst.
[1:06:11] And I think that's where it makes people feel uncomfortable.
[1:06:17] So yes, yeah. There's only people with and
[1:06:20] maybe hope. Yes, a little bit of hope, a
[1:06:23] little bit of discernment. I think bottom line, when it
[1:06:26] comes to situations in your own life, what you can do to feel
[1:06:31] that you're on the right track with somebody or with a
[1:06:34] situation at work or at home or online is to think to yourself,
[1:06:38] you know, who is surrounding this person?
[1:06:41] Is there a gap between what they're actually saying to you
[1:06:43] and how they treat people without power?
[1:06:46] Trust your gut. It's information.
[1:06:48] Don't necessarily always immediately have to act on it,
[1:06:51] but at least trust that something is coming to you from
[1:06:54] that, a signal that you need to explore.
[1:06:57] And just be aware that success doesn't always equal integrity.
[1:07:03] You know, be aware of the Halo effect.
[1:07:05] Be aware of this tendency that we have to equate success with
[1:07:09] goodness or attractiveness with goodness because that's just not
[1:07:14] always the case. So understanding those pitfalls
[1:07:17] is really helpful and awareness of ourselves, integrating the
[1:07:22] bits of ourselves that we don't like.
[1:07:25] That's that's the big piece. That's the hard piece.
[1:07:28] Exactly. That's the hard piece, but it's
[1:07:30] so important because it allows us to be consistent with our
[1:07:34] values. Whatever situation we're in, we
[1:07:37] can be consistent with our values and feel good about it,
[1:07:40] even when, you know, we there's a part of us that kind of wants
[1:07:45] to put that on someone else. Yeah.
[1:07:48] It's an easier job, isn't it? Yeah, exactly.
[1:07:49] Easier job, yeah. Way harder to take it in.
[1:07:52] It is. It's humility at the end of the
[1:07:54] day. Yeah.
[1:07:55] So I hope that this was helpful. This feels very different for a
[1:07:58] live all be all conversation I love.
[1:08:00] Who it is, it's a different thing for me to talk about, but
[1:08:03] I really enjoyed it. Yeah, me too.
[1:08:06] I feel as though it's helpful to talk about.
[1:08:09] Yeah, I agree. And I also think it's helpful to
[1:08:12] talk about without trying to retake people down because
[1:08:15] there's another fear that I fear that, you know, sometimes you
[1:08:18] can go online and it feels that people just want to take people
[1:08:21] down. And I think it's important that
[1:08:24] you said to have, Oh no, I'm doing it to have that more open
[1:08:28] view on situations and just awareness because we can either
[1:08:33] bury our head and just ignore it, or we've become aware and we
[1:08:36] can talk about it. And ultimately, whatever you
[1:08:40] feel comfortable with is the right thing.
[1:08:42] And so if it feels uncomfortable I'm following somebody or
[1:08:45] feeling like you don't connect to their view or their opinion,
[1:08:48] then actually that's where the truth is should be held.
[1:08:51] Yeah, yeah. I'll come back to discernment
[1:08:57] because sometimes, as I say, our instinct is, oh, I'm just going
[1:09:01] to get rid of that thing. I don't agree with that.
[1:09:03] And then we we lose, we lose the ability to have a conversation.
[1:09:08] Yeah. But yeah, ultimately I think
[1:09:11] trust in ourselves is is the is the ultimate, is the ultimate
[1:09:16] aim. Yeah, some and not reaction.
[1:09:18] Yeah, there we go. That's what we'll leave it with.
[1:09:21] Well, that's my final question and I should have gone back and
[1:09:23] seen what you've said the last time you were on here.
[1:09:26] But Gemma, what does live well be well mean to you?
[1:09:30] Oh well, in light of today's conversation.
[1:09:33] Right now in the world. And what does this mean?
[1:09:35] Oh, not living in a war zone. That would be a really helpful
[1:09:38] thing. Yeah.
[1:09:41] You can't live well and be well if you're being attacked.
[1:09:44] Yeah. Yeah, what does it mean to me?
[1:09:50] I think it means it means self compassion but also getting
[1:09:56] perspective on and not just our own hubris, but trying to remain
[1:10:03] humble I think is very important.
[1:10:08] Yeah, very humbling and. Yeah, I think we all, we all
[1:10:14] have, we all want, we all want to be right.
[1:10:17] I think a lot of us, you know, we, I think that's.
[1:10:19] Human psychology isn't. Exactly.
[1:10:21] But I think sometimes connecting with other people requires
[1:10:26] requires a little bit more discernment about are instincts
[1:10:29] and kindness. It comes down to kindness again,
[1:10:34] doesn't it? A. 100% I mean, yeah, that's my
[1:10:37] favorite thing. It's your favorite thing.
[1:10:39] There's a reason why it's your favorite thing.
[1:10:41] You know, being kind to yourself and other people allows you.
[1:10:44] It allows you to be discerning, it allows you to stand up in the
[1:10:47] face of oppression. It allows you to be more
[1:10:51] measured in how you approach situation of conflict and it
[1:10:56] allows you to know yourself a little bit better.
[1:10:58] Absolutely. Well, I'm going to link, if
[1:11:00] you're happy with that, the subset article on the show
[1:11:02] notes, so people can go and have a source after this to go and
[1:11:07] read everything that we spoke about.
[1:11:08] I think it's a great article. Thank you for writing it.
[1:11:12] Thank you. Very vulnerable.
[1:11:15] And yeah, I'm just really grateful that you have spoken
[1:11:18] out in a kind of compassionate way.
[1:11:20] Thank you, Sarah. I'm grateful for you.
[1:11:22] Oh, I am. But you're great.
[1:11:28] Thank you. You're welcome.

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