# Behaviour Change Expert: The Real Reason You Can’t Change Your Habits | Shahroo Izadi

An episode of [Live Well Be Well with Sarah Ann Macklin | Health, Lifestyle, Nutrition](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1508380100), 27 May 2026, 1 h 29 min.

Audio: https://anchor.fm/s/1033d1554/podcast/play/120598965/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2026-4-27%2F424981501-44100-2-ef81c43cc14cb.mp3

There's an entire industry built on the idea that if you hate yourself enough, you'll eventually change. And yet everything we know about shame tells us the opposite is true. So why do we keep going back there? And more importantly, what does it actually take to break free? This week on Live Well Be Well, I'm sitting down with Shahroo Izadi, Behavioural Change Specialist, NHS clinical trainer, and bestselling author of The Kindness Method and The Last Diet. Shahroo spent years working in addiction recovery, and what she found there transformed not only her professional understanding of change, but her own relationship with food, her body, and herself. We go deep into why so many of us associate change with self-loathing, why willpower alone will always fail us, and how the tools used in addiction recovery hold the blueprint for any meaningful behaviour change. Shahroo also shares her own story with complete honesty, including binge eating, a gastric band, eight stone lost, and what finally made the difference. This is one of those conversations that reframes everything. Here's what we dive into: - How shame becomes the enemy of lasting habit change. - Why the only habit worth learning is how to change habits. - What addiction recovery gets right that mainstream wellness misses. - How to interrupt the shame spiral after a setback. - Why body neutrality is a more honest goal than body positivity. Love, Sarah Ann 💛 *** This episode is sponsored by: DIOME: Rest deeper. Stay grounded. Rested is available now and Grounded lands later this month. 👉 Get 20% off with code SARAH20 at DIOME.CO NOWATCH: The compassionate health tracker Connecting body and mind with unique stress recovery insights so you can live fully today 👉 15% off with code LWBW15 at https://nowatch.com/ *** The Great British Veg Out How to support your gut, energy, and hormones by eating more — not less. 👉 https://sarahmacklin.substack.com/p/the-great-british-veg-out Reset Your Health If your body feels off after stress, travel, or burnout — this is where to start. 👉 https://sarahmacklin.substack.com/s/reset-your-health-in-30-days 👉 Practical beats perfect. Here’s a free 5-recipe PDF I use to support energy and stress during busy weeks. https://open.substack.com/pub/sarahmacklin/p/download-your-free-5-recipes-to-relieve 👉 If this resonates, you can join the thousands who read The Compassionate Cure each week. https://sarahmacklin.substack.com/ *** Let’s be friends! 📷 Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sarahannmacklin/ 📹 Subscribe:http://www.youtube.com/@livewellbewellsarah 🐦 Twitter: https://x.com/SarahAnnMacklin 📱 TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@livewellbewellpodcast 💌 Newsletter: https://sarahmacklin.substack.com/ *** If You Enjoyed This Episode, You Might Also Like: Dr. Shefali's Approach to Shadow Self: From External Validation to Inner Alignment https://youtu.be/46-BbuvGHuY *** Sign up to Sarah’s Compassionate Cure newsletter: Science Simplified, Health Humanised. Join thousands in exploring actionable insights that prioritise compassion, clarity, and real-life impact. https://sarahmacklin.substack.com/ *** Highlights: 00:00:00 Intro 00:07:00 Shahroo's Story: Stammers, Weight, and Self-Help at Age 10 00:10:34 Working in Addiction and Recognising Her Own Cycle 00:15:27 "Better Than Well": What Addiction Recovery Gets Right 00:23:24 Body Positivity, Body Neutrality, and the Thin Ideal 00:31:38 The Gastric Band: What Happens When You Don't Change the Behaviour 00:34:18 Social Judgment and the Ozempic Study 00:43:33 How to Stop the Swing Between Extremes 00:46:21 The Second Choice: Interrupting the Shame Spiral 00:53:23 Matt Haig on Using Your Worst Days as a Reference Bank 00:58:44 Writing Letters to Your Future Self 01:06:22 How Shahroo Sees Herself Differently Five Years On 01:18:47 Hatefulness Doesn't Create Change 01:20:07 Self-Compassion vs. Self-Love: What We're Actually Asking For 01:26:17…

## Transcript

[0:00] People feel that they're broken because they can't change
[0:02] habits, not because of the habits that they can't change a
[0:05] lot of the time. But are we broken?
[0:07] No, I thought for most of my life that I was like weak and
[0:10] weak willed and self sabotaging the more shame, sadness and
[0:14] despair I wanted to eat on. People don't understand that I
[0:18] hate this thing more than anyone and it looks like I give up
[0:21] anything for it. You went into a collective
[0:24] environment where you saw other people's struggles, which
[0:26] probably made you connect and emphasize.
[0:28] I cannot tell you how frequently people will say to me, oh, I bet
[0:30] no one's as bad as I am. We have this whole connection to
[0:33] being normal, but normal feels quite boring actually.
[0:36] I think it's whatever normal is in the context that you're in.
[0:39] It's amazing how just making people feel like they're not an
[0:42] exception, they're not abnormal. How did you like intercept that
[0:46] then? The mission stopped being
[0:47] achieved. This goal of losing weight goal
[0:49] became make it easy to do the things that enable you to lose
[0:53] weight and keep it off. I stopped making it so personal
[0:56] and I stopped making it rely on willpower and thinking that
[1:00] willpower and desire to change myself and being so fed up with
[1:04] myself. We're going to be the thing that
[1:05] kept me doing an unrealistic thing.
[1:07] But then what if it feels too much?
[1:10] It will. Sometimes you should anticipate
[1:11] that it will. So if someone listening maybe
[1:13] hates themself, where do they start?
[1:15] We are wired to remember our threats and our deficits so we
[1:19] can protect ourselves. Your brain is not there to make
[1:21] you happy, it's there to keep you safe.
[1:22] Really the only habit you need to learn is.
[1:28] For the last two years I have kept a secret from you and it's
[1:32] this, it's my new book Healthy Shouldn't Be This hard.
[1:36] And I think it is a problem that we are all feeling.
[1:39] And I was feeling it so much that I wrote a book on it.
[1:42] Now if you've been a guest of this podcast for a while, you
[1:44] know that I am all about kindness, self compassion.
[1:47] But when I dug into the research of this, my mind exploded.
[1:52] The connection between the mind and body is so integral.
[1:55] But we completely miss out on all the conversations on health,
[1:59] on how we speak to ourselves. And that is such a driving
[2:02] factor on how our food responds to what we eat, to the choices
[2:06] that we make. And we are so overwhelmed right
[2:09] now in the $8.5 trillion industry that is the Wellness
[2:12] industry, which is predicted to be by 2027.
[2:16] So if you need a helping hand, if you want a new way to live
[2:20] and be well and buy my new book Healthy shouldn't be this hard
[2:24] out on May the 28th. But you can pre-order it now.
[2:28] I'll pop the link below in the show notes.
[2:30] And I would love if you could support me on this.
[2:33] And I honestly think it will support you too.
[2:36] So I'm going to start here, OK? We have built an entire industry
[2:40] within health and Wellness and self help and all of that, that
[2:44] if you hate yourself enough, we'll eventually change.
[2:48] Yet everything we know about shame suggests the opposites.
[2:53] So why do our brains still go there?
[2:56] I think the tipping point for a lot of people to want to change
[2:59] tends to be that they're displeased with something or
[3:03] they want to change something because they're in a discomfort
[3:08] of some kind. And so where it's wild that we
[3:12] never got told growing up or we never got taught that you're
[3:15] going to, you're always engaging in habits.
[3:18] If you didn't choose them, they've chosen you or now you
[3:21] know they're being chosen for you now in this increasingly
[3:25] engineered to addict world. And so we actually don't have a
[3:29] framework for changing habits. And so we associate it with
[3:33] something that we don't like going on or being something
[3:37] we're we're not happy with. And then as such, our
[3:40] association with change is that it's this difficult, highly
[3:44] personal, often steeped in moral judgement process.
[3:49] Well, actually, it's, it's imperative to have a framework
[3:56] and an auditing unless you want to just be on autopilot from, on
[4:01] whatever habits you've been given or inherited or picked up
[4:05] without wanting to. And I think we forget that it's,
[4:09] we have to create new habits all the time.
[4:11] And we do create new habits all the time.
[4:14] I think the ones that we're referring to are the habits, the
[4:17] sort of goals we set ourselves to fix ourselves.
[4:20] But when we pick up a new like phone and learn how to use an
[4:24] app, the process behind it is exactly the same.
[4:27] We're doing something in a row until it's easy.
[4:29] So when I think about it that way, because it's a lot more
[4:32] frictionless, obviously because of how it's designed, but also
[4:35] it's a lot more frictionless because it's not personal.
[4:39] Whereas when we go to change habits from a place of not being
[4:44] happy with ourselves or even not from a place of not being happy
[4:47] with ourselves and we set a goal and we get to a point of
[4:51] discomfort. Often the conversation we have
[4:53] with ourselves takes it from a rational, common sense,
[4:57] objective, skill building place to a, oh, I remember this, I'm
[5:02] not good at this. I'm the sort of person who
[5:04] starts things and doesn't finish them etcetera.
[5:06] And so I've found more and more in my work that the lower self
[5:12] esteem and self worth we have when we start to change our
[5:16] habits, which tends to be the case if we only associate it
[5:18] with fixing ourselves and not being happy with how we are or
[5:21] where we are. The more likely it is to get
[5:23] personal when we hit a point of discomfort, which is really just
[5:26] inevitable if you're disrupting the status quo with any habit
[5:29] really. Whereas when we struggle to, I
[5:32] don't know, get really good at a new app, to use that example
[5:35] again, we don't think, Oh yeah, just like when my, you know,
[5:38] there's no point in me thinking I will ever be good at apps
[5:40] because just like my teacher said when I was younger, that I
[5:43] just start apps and don't finish them.
[5:45] Like it's just not a thing. So I think more and more we only
[5:49] remember the ones that we start, the habits we build from a place
[5:53] of not being happy with ourselves, because they tend to
[5:55] be the ones that reinforce those limiting beliefs or whatever
[6:01] term people use for them by virtue of the fact that we have
[6:05] all these false starts. It's interesting because you
[6:07] said fix yourself in that right where we all get to this moment.
[6:11] But then that like, really implies that we feel broken in
[6:14] that moment. But are we broken?
[6:18] Oh gosh, no biggie. Can you imagine?
[6:24] Just clip that. Yes, No, I'm kidding.
[6:27] No, I mean, I, I certainly don't think that's a good place to
[6:29] come from thinking that. I just think that most of us are
[6:36] not aware of how many of the choices we're engaging in and
[6:41] the habits that we've automated are ones that don't get us to
[6:45] where we want to be a lot of the time because the landscape of
[6:47] our life has changed. And again, we don't have this
[6:49] like basic auditing process unless it's remedial to say,
[6:53] right, do my habits match my lifestyle and my needs and my
[6:57] values now? And, you know, it falls on the
[7:01] into the domain of well-being and personal development.
[7:04] And when really it should be falling into the domain of just
[7:07] generally, am I happy with what I'm repeat what I'm doing with
[7:10] my hands? You know, I'm repeating
[7:13] especially now as I say that I know I'm a broken record.
[7:16] But so many of our habits are, you know, the world is
[7:20] engineered to give us and feed us so many of our habits and our
[7:26] beliefs, and so to not audit them.
[7:30] Yeah. I think a lot of the time, too,
[7:32] people feel that they're broken because they can't change
[7:34] habits, not because of the habits that they can't change a
[7:37] lot of the time. And so that's what breaks my
[7:39] heart about it because so many of the things that people tell
[7:43] me they know are objectively possible for them.
[7:46] And so their inability to keep them up until they become
[7:49] automatic or who they are or stop feeling like a fluke or the
[7:53] other shoes going to drop, it's that inability that gets them
[7:57] down. And so I always say like,
[7:59] regardless of the habit you want to change, really the only habit
[8:03] you need to learn is how to change habits.
[8:08] You know, like that's really it. And then the rest of it takes
[8:11] care of itself. And ultimately that means taking
[8:13] it, as I say, from being this personal exercise to the
[8:18] repetition of a new and unfamiliar behaviour until it
[8:21] feels familiar and natural. You work in behavioural change
[8:26] and in the past you've worked with people with addiction,
[8:29] which I find really fascinating because that's probably one of
[8:31] the hardest behaviours to change.
[8:34] But before we get into that, because I think people will
[8:36] really want to know, OK, well we can have all the knowledge in
[8:38] the world, but actually putting it into action is so much
[8:42] tougher. But I want to go back because
[8:45] when you came in here you said, you know, I have a stammer.
[8:47] Sometimes it comes out and you had a stammer as a child,
[8:51] something I find really interesting with anyone when
[8:54] they're growing up and you know, I grew up not knowing I was
[8:57] dyslexic and I think that's definitely played out in my in
[8:59] my later life of lower self worth.
[9:02] Connected to that. Do you think that maybe your
[9:06] identity with the stammer and how you were perceived as a
[9:09] child in those ways kind of got you interested within psychology
[9:14] and behaviour change and all the things that you're in now?
[9:17] The stammer Probably not as much as the issues that I had around
[9:22] my weight and my body size. So I was much, much bigger and
[9:28] for a large proportion of my life, like much, much bigger
[9:31] than a lot of other kids. How much bigger?
[9:34] Like, I mean, I've lost 8 stone and I mean, my weight fluctuates
[9:39] now, but not by 8 stone. I've stayed around there for
[9:42] about I guess over a decade now, but that more than anything.
[9:45] Yeah, definitely it did. Definitely it did.
[9:48] And also because that's sort of, as a lot of people know, that's
[9:52] something where you're literally wearing your inability to do
[9:55] something unless you've openly said, I'm not trying to lose
[9:58] weight, which tends to be unfortunately something you have
[10:00] to justify as well or defend rather.
[10:02] But yeah, I was kind of the shame component was compounded
[10:07] by the fact that I was wearing my inability to change my habits
[10:10] on my body whilst I was saying I'm gutted to not be able to
[10:13] change my habits. So if it really felt like my
[10:15] body was betraying me in that sense, and I think also I
[10:19] wasn't, you know, as a lot of people still aren't
[10:21] unfortunately short on people who, as I'm sure you can relate,
[10:24] feel that they should talk about your body and tell you about
[10:27] your body wherever you go. And so then you kind of
[10:30] anticipate having to normalize and internalize people not
[10:34] thinking you look the right way. And then that's of course
[10:37] reinforced all over the shop when you have a bigger body as
[10:39] well. And so it, I didn't have to look
[10:43] far to think that something was wrong with me and I was looking
[10:48] for things. Early days.
[10:50] I was always interested in self help, though.
[10:52] I remember being, I remember being like literally like 10 or
[10:55] 11. I wasn't reading diet books
[10:57] then. I don't think I already knew
[10:58] about the diets, frankly, unfortunately.
[11:00] But I, yeah, because I was just listening to the grown-ups.
[11:03] And it was like, God love her, truly love her.
[11:07] But it was like Jane Fonda time, you know, So everyone was doing
[11:11] like it was just normal. It was just that everyone was
[11:13] talking about weight and it was booming.
[11:15] And I lived in the states as well.
[11:16] I, I grew up in the States, so it's probably a little bit more
[11:18] punchy there, but I was always into self help.
[11:22] I remember like 10 years old. I remembered recently I was
[11:25] reading like men are from Mars, women are from Venus.
[11:28] Yeah. So I just for some reason, I, I
[11:30] can't honestly tell you why. I think, I think I just like
[11:34] growing up things and grown-ups seem to be have access to fixing
[11:39] their problems and I was into that and not just in a sad kind
[11:43] of, I thought there was something wrong with me, but in
[11:44] a genuinely interested way. And so I think that was
[11:49] certainly the case. And I think also really what led
[11:51] me to work in addiction was that the first placement I got after
[11:57] my master's, I've been after my undergrad was at Central N
[12:02] Northwest London NHS Trust at a place called the Junction
[12:05] Service, where I did a year as an assistant psychologist
[12:09] working in crack, heroin, alcohol, in the community, in
[12:15] prisons. And like, after a few days, I
[12:17] just thought, this is this is what I'm going to do.
[12:20] This is fascinating. And also because by that point,
[12:22] because I was in my early 20s, I had already tried a bunch of
[12:26] different ways to change my behaviour with food and they
[12:30] hadn't stuck because I wasn't trying to change my behaviour
[12:33] with food, I was trying to make my body smaller at any cost,
[12:36] which doesn't teach you anything other than doing that.
[12:39] Because obviously everyone has their weaknesses throughout
[12:42] their life and things they want to control and change and fix
[12:45] and and move. What do you think it was about
[12:47] food for you that was your crutch?
[12:50] To that, do you know, it's a difficult one because people ask
[12:52] me all the time, like should I not make my child conscious of
[12:56] the fact that they are unhealthy and dah, dah, dah.
[12:59] So I will never know whether it was because when I started
[13:02] getting a bit bigger, well-intentioned family members
[13:06] and friends and teachers and whoever else, we're like, maybe
[13:08] you shouldn't eat that and the rebellion component of it came
[13:11] in or whether it was the other way around.
[13:13] But ultimately, whether it was born out of that, what ended up
[13:16] happening is the rebellion component for me turned into
[13:20] urgent binge eating and then binge eating urgently in large
[13:26] amounts of like, oh, this is going to get taken away again.
[13:28] That message of this is going to get taken away because it's bad
[13:30] and I'm bad if I meant that I was eating large amounts.
[13:33] And then I think what I know what happened now is that I
[13:37] learned what it was to eat as though food was a drug, not just
[13:42] in terms of sort of the high you get from sugar, but also the
[13:45] value of being incapacitated from overeating.
[13:50] And I certainly didn't see it that way at the time.
[13:53] I thought for most of my life that I was like weak and weak
[13:56] willed and self sabotaging things like that.
[13:58] But as a result, the more it manifested itself, my body, the
[14:01] bigger I got, the more shame and sadness and despair I wanted to
[14:08] eat on, and then the more of my substance I required.
[14:12] So before I knew it, I was in a cycle of addiction.
[14:16] But I didn't see it that way until I went to work in
[14:19] addiction and immediately I was like, my God, I've read all
[14:22] these books and I've gone to all these like workshops and
[14:26] Wellness things and diet groups and all sorts.
[14:30] And I'm sitting in front of someone who injects heroin and
[14:34] they are echoing back to me the behavioural cycle that I've gone
[14:38] through in terms of my tolerance, my withdrawal, my
[14:41] dependency, and ultimately the fact that people don't
[14:44] understand that I hate this thing more than anyone.
[14:48] And it looks like I'd give up anything for it.
[14:51] And so I just got all of that. It was just, and then I stayed
[14:55] there, not just because I wanted to help myself out and use the
[14:58] tools, but side note, they are free and evidence based and
[15:02] super simple. But I just carried on working in
[15:06] addiction. And actually now, after going
[15:07] away to do books and work more and well-being, 15 years later,
[15:12] I've actually gone back to the same NHS Trust as a clinical
[15:14] trainer. Wow.
[15:16] What do you think the Cheru sees differently now going back to
[15:19] when she first went in 15 years ago?
[15:22] Honestly, I don't think that much, which is why I think I've
[15:24] done well, is because my attitude towards people is not
[15:29] changed, or I haven't. I think the thing that meant
[15:33] that I did well was that I saw that behavioural change and what
[15:38] was required for it was the same across the board and that
[15:41] people's capacity to do extraordinary things and to make
[15:46] extraordinary changes was the same.
[15:48] I mean, obviously some of us are more change resistant.
[15:50] Some of us internally, externally have things that make
[15:53] it harder, harder for us to change now or always or
[15:57] genetically or you know, contextually.
[15:59] But certainly observing what I have, people in addiction
[16:04] recovery remain my absolute, like I aspire to be like them.
[16:09] There's a term in addiction recovery call better than Well
[16:12] that I use a lot. And it's thrown around because
[16:15] it essentially describes people who don't just recover from
[16:19] their addictions. They become more capable of
[16:21] dealing with day-to-day difficulty than the general
[16:25] population because they've mastered in pulse control,
[16:28] because they've mastered and because they know the process
[16:30] for changing habits. This is like a huge gap in our
[16:33] society and they know it. Yeah, truly, regardless of the
[16:36] way that they've come into recovery or sobriety or even
[16:40] palm reduction moderation. So in terms of what I'm
[16:42] observing of other people, I'll say that, but I know that's a
[16:45] cop out because you asked me about myself.
[16:47] What's the difference in myself? I'm a lot more sure of what I'm
[16:51] good at and a lot. I'm absolutely fine to say what
[16:56] I'm not good at. Like just this morning I had a
[16:59] meeting and I was so proud of what I'd produced.
[17:02] And I found that there was like a almost a direct correlation
[17:06] between how proud and secure I was in what I was doing and how
[17:10] ready I was to be wrong. And which is great.
[17:13] I mean, it's a great place to be if you want to get better.
[17:16] So that was definitely the case. Whereas that at that time in
[17:19] life, whether it was at work or with my friends or whatever, Oh
[17:23] my, any criticism, even if someone wasn't messaging me back
[17:27] on WhatsApp, I would literally delete the thread because I
[17:29] would be mortified at having to look at the facts and like the
[17:32] amount I would project on it. And it's, it's great to have
[17:35] conversations like this one because as is the case with so
[17:39] many of the habits that I help people to change, you don't
[17:43] realize they're gone unless they come back because mastery is
[17:46] defined by the absence of this behaviour that you don't want to
[17:50] engage in. So I don't wake up every morning
[17:52] thinking, look at me, I'm not an anxious.
[17:54] I'm not anxious again, you know, eventually you normalise it.
[17:57] But it's interesting to do exercises like this because I
[18:00] used to just, yeah, freak out. Well, I think that's like a self
[18:04] checking awareness thing, isn't it?
[18:05] Right. And I think so.
[18:07] I mean, I've just been away at this conference for the last
[18:11] couple of days and there was some really interesting
[18:13] perspectives sat around a table with lots of different, lots of
[18:17] people from all different industries and walks of life.
[18:20] And one person like stated this research that had just come up
[18:25] around empathy. And it just came to my brain as
[18:28] you were talking when I was, you know, you, you went into a
[18:31] collective environment where you saw other people's struggles,
[18:34] which probably made you connect and empathize, right?
[18:37] So what they looked at in the study was the loneliness is such
[18:40] a big epidemic right now. People that are more lonely
[18:45] because they connect to people less have less empathy, and
[18:49] people who are less lonely have more empathy.
[18:52] Oh that's interesting. Which also I guess shows that
[18:55] maybe empathy can be learnt right when you're around other
[18:59] people. And so I'm like thinking about
[19:02] what you're saying. And I'm like, wow, OK, well, you
[19:04] went into an environment. Because before then I can
[19:06] imagine, and I can imagine with a lot of people, whenever you
[19:09] feel like you're going through something hard, so much of the
[19:11] time we're like, oh, it's just, it's just me.
[19:13] Like I know when I'm going through something difficult, I'm
[19:15] like, God, am I the only one feeling like this?
[19:17] Am I the only one worried about these things that are about to
[19:20] happen to me? And then I know social media can
[19:23] be so damaging, but sometimes you see someone else talking
[19:26] about something in that moment that they're afraid of at your
[19:28] age. And you're like, oh, it's not
[19:30] just me. This person feels like that too.
[19:33] And I think when I connect like weight, the must does.
[19:36] However many people in this world, I'm sure there's many
[19:39] people my age thinking and feeling the same things.
[19:41] You all of a sudden go, this feels less alone.
[19:44] And so when I had that study, I was like, it's empathy is such a
[19:48] big thing. It's such an important emotion
[19:50] that I don't think I think the Americans speak really well
[19:54] about it. I think the English a lesser
[19:56] with empathy and compassion. I think we're we're not as
[19:58] forthcoming in our conversations about it.
[20:00] Whereas if you talk about compassion and empathy to the
[20:02] Americans, they're like, we love it.
[20:04] And that's what I found out about this weekend.
[20:06] You know, it was very forthcoming.
[20:07] And when I heard that study, I was like.
[20:09] Sharing these experiences with others, like actually feeling
[20:12] genuinely connected, like not lonely.
[20:14] You can be surrounded by loads of people, but if you're not
[20:18] actually experiencing and seeing in the other person fully, not
[20:21] just for the good but also what they're going through, which is
[20:24] what happened to you when you went into behavioral addiction
[20:27] and saw other people, you're like, oh, I'm less alone.
[20:31] Yeah, well, and you know what? I'm not an exception.
[20:35] I don't. Like.
[20:36] Feeling exceptional, sorry. You know, like I think a lot of
[20:40] us, you're right. I think you're absolutely right
[20:42] when you share it and also when someone's not shocked, it goes a
[20:47] really long way. And I think that's why I like
[20:50] being amongst the unshockable and actually I, I really do and
[20:55] I'm pretty unshockable. I mean, obviously because my job
[20:57] doesn't, my job helps with that, but it's actually something that
[21:01] I learned early on when I was working in addiction.
[21:03] I think it was a motivational interviewing, like one of the
[21:06] approaches that's often used in terms of helping people to
[21:08] resolve ambivalence. And I remember learning that in
[21:11] noticing that in our in my first sessions with people when they
[21:15] would be assessed and they were asked all this information, they
[21:17] weren't to trust me yet. And they're engaging in, you
[21:20] know, behaviours that they're ashamed of and not happy with
[21:22] and are often illegal. The baseline information, that
[21:28] data that they were giving me on the frequency with which they
[21:30] were using, how they were using, etcetera, was usually transpired
[21:34] to be later on when we got to know each other.
[21:37] Not accurate. The same way most people don't
[21:40] go to the doctor and go, Oh, yeah, I have 17 cigarettes a
[21:43] day. Thanks for asking.
[21:45] You know, like, and So what I started doing is kind of giving
[21:52] an example of what the answer might be.
[21:55] So I'd say like, So what are we talking about?
[21:57] Like 2 bottles of wine and just hold it really lightly.
[22:00] And then I noticed that people would go, yeah, actually.
[22:04] And it's amazing how just making people feel like they're not an
[22:09] exception, they're not abnormal. And I sometimes feel that
[22:14] that's, I think gift is strong, but it's something that I'm able
[22:19] to give other people because I'm on I'm the person that people
[22:23] tell things that they're not proud of.
[22:25] And I cannot tell you how frequently people will say to
[22:27] me, Oh, I bet no one's as bad as I am.
[22:31] Oh I bet like how gynecologists I'm sure are constantly asked
[22:34] like I normal and things like that.
[22:37] And I'm like, what is? What even is normal?
[22:40] I've lost the gynecologist. I don't know.
[22:43] But generally that word, right? Like we all kind of have this.
[22:46] I wish I was more ex. We have this.
[22:50] We have this whole connection to being normal, but normal feels
[22:54] quite boring actually. I wouldn't know because I am.
[23:00] Well, I guess I'm normal to other neuroversion people.
[23:06] I also just, I think it's whatever normal is in the
[23:10] context that you're in. So in the same way that normal,
[23:13] it sometimes will be things that are problematic behaviours too.
[23:17] You know, I see a lot of people, myself included, when I wanted
[23:19] to like eat loads and not be judged for it.
[23:21] The only people I was hanging out with outside of isolating
[23:24] were other people who wanted to eat loads and not be judged for
[23:26] it. You know, who didn't think that
[23:29] whatever my portion size or food choices or whatever else.
[23:33] The same at uni with other habits, you know, your
[23:36] tolerance, how when you normalize doing and the doing
[23:41] things and stuff like that. Yeah, if your crew normalize it
[23:45] too, then that's normal. And so it can go.
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[24:44] buying once or subscribing. So I've got something really
[24:47] interesting to think about just because I think we're in this
[24:50] really cultural moment right now.
[24:52] So we've got body positivity on one side of things, which has
[24:59] changed a lot over the last 10 years.
[25:03] But then we're also like coexisting in a space of GLP
[25:06] ones, like Olympic, for example, right?
[25:10] Which is quite a contradiction in two different ways.
[25:15] And I know that a lot of GLP ones are for people that are
[25:19] morbidly obese and really, really, really need the help,
[25:22] which I think are like some of the best pharmacy schools
[25:24] inventions we can do for certain for certain small population of
[25:28] people that really need them. But like, how do you see those
[25:32] two coexisting? It's tricky because I think that
[25:35] a lot of the people who are on GLP ones and see them as an
[25:39] absolute saviour are saying that it's largely because it turns
[25:44] down the noise. The food noise.
[25:46] Yep, and I believe that that food noise comes from diet
[25:51] culture in the 1st place. And so on their behalf, not only
[25:55] do I not judge them in any way, but I also believe that they
[26:00] wouldn't need to give additional money and hand over
[26:04] deliciousness to the diet industry again to help them
[26:09] solve a problem that was caused by diet culture and the diet
[26:12] industry in the 1st place. Now, I know that not everyone's
[26:14] in that category, but I certain and I and that the portion, the
[26:18] portion of people who are in that category will be the ones
[26:19] that I speak to. But I think an enormous number
[26:22] of people have developed a difficult relationship with food
[26:26] where they feel powerless around food and it ends up manifesting
[26:29] itself as weight that they don't want on their bodies because
[26:33] they started dieting so early and because of the the swinging
[26:37] between extremes that's now exasperated by ultra processed
[26:41] food. And so and then, you know,
[26:45] repeating the cycle that I was mentioning earlier at speed and
[26:49] about becoming more addicted to eating large amounts quickly of
[26:54] foods that now we know are getting us high.
[26:58] The body positivity thing, I think a lot of people feel
[27:02] almost betrayed by the people who kind of promised that they
[27:08] were OK. And I think that body neutrality
[27:12] should have been more of an aspiration.
[27:15] Explain what you mean by that people.
[27:17] You don't need to love. I think we were told that we
[27:20] needed to love our bodies now. And it's like, guys, you told us
[27:23] for ages that they were gross and now we're problematic if we
[27:28] don't love them. Like, chill out asking.
[27:32] Now you're asking us to turn on a dime as well.
[27:34] And you've conditioned us in every possible way.
[27:36] And by the way, the world hasn't changed on a dime, turned on a
[27:39] dime. You know, I'd be interested to
[27:41] see, like, dating app data. And I'd be interested to see,
[27:47] you know, now the backswing when it comes to, you know, still,
[27:51] you go into a shop and you want to buy something in a larger
[27:54] size. It's harder.
[27:57] And it's not made for someone who wants to wear the same
[28:01] things as some. I mean, I know that efforts have
[28:02] been made, but I mean, considering the efforts that
[28:05] have been made to make people shit about themselves, you would
[28:07] have thought that they could do some more heavy, heavy lifting.
[28:10] I also think that we should just stop being mad at each other and
[28:13] judging each other for whatever things we want to do to our
[28:18] bodies. Not least because I think so
[28:21] many of them were things that are born out of habits we
[28:23] wouldn't have chosen and beliefs about ourselves that we wouldn't
[28:26] have chosen. That we wish we hadn't developed
[28:27] in the 1st place, and that now we are all being put in a
[28:31] position that we have to pay for to remedy.
[28:34] So that's, yeah, that's awful, I think.
[28:38] I think one of the things that the GLP ones have taught us is
[28:41] that we were being asked to turn on a dime about body positivity.
[28:46] And my two cents on them because I almost definitely would have
[28:50] gone on that. Yeah, I was thinking that I was.
[28:52] I wanted to ask that question like do you think that would
[28:54] have been a? Yeah.
[28:56] And you're not tempted. No, no.
[29:00] I mean, I don't want to lose weight and I don't have food
[29:05] noise, but when I did both of those things, I mean, it's
[29:13] interesting to me that you would even think I'd be tempted.
[29:15] Well, I say that because you know when you've experienced, so
[29:19] I think about it similar to diazepam and Valium, right?
[29:24] So you might not have anxiety now, but you know that there's a
[29:29] drug out there that if a relapse happens or your anxiety gets bad
[29:35] or you go through something, there is something that you
[29:38] could maybe grab to make that noise quiet.
[29:41] It's quite similar in a way, right?
[29:42] That's what diazepam does. That's what a lot of these drugs
[29:45] do, right? They kind of quiet in that worry
[29:48] doesn't mean that you need, doesn't mean that like you're
[29:50] broken, you should go on them or that for instance, you put on
[29:53] weight and you need to go on them.
[29:54] But it's a full security in a way for people that struggle
[29:58] with addiction. I'm just thinking about it in
[30:00] that way, like that was definitely not.
[30:02] Like no, no I don't. Think it was no the.
[30:04] Reason I'm saying that but. It's an interesting like I think
[30:07] because they can be sold as the solution.
[30:12] That's the problem. So the.
[30:15] I'm just interested from your past experience.
[30:17] Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Interesting that you compare
[30:20] them to pharmaceutical drugs, because I know that there are
[30:27] some. There's some interesting stuff
[30:28] coming out about cravings, but I'm certainly not a GL P1
[30:31] expert. I look at behaviours.
[30:33] We've had Doctor Jack Mosley on if you want to go and listen to
[30:36] the expert view, go and listen. But one thing I will say is that
[30:40] if my weight is what? Unless it's because I've gone on
[30:44] some sort of medication, then if my weight is fluctuating or for
[30:51] like a health reason that I it's out of my control.
[30:53] If my weight is fluctuating rapidly to anywhere near the
[30:58] degree it was before, then that's as a direct result of me
[31:01] eating in a way that I'm not happy with.
[31:04] And that's the difference. And so I learned to address the
[31:07] eating and know that then it would manifest itself and
[31:10] balance out on my body. And so the other thing is that
[31:16] craving, thinking it might have gone away with food, but when
[31:22] I'm stressed or anxious or bored, I'll notice.
[31:27] I want to notice because it turns up the volume on things
[31:31] like, well, why don't you buy something?
[31:32] Why don't you mess about on your phone?
[31:34] Why don't you stalk someone you went out with years ago online?
[31:40] Like, you know, why don't you grab something to change the way
[31:44] you feel? And I think that's one of the
[31:47] things that people often tell me like, why am I doing this thing?
[31:51] I feel like possessing it doesn't even make me feel good.
[31:53] And I always say to them like, it's not in when you're when you
[31:57] want to change how you how you feel, You're not that we're not
[32:00] that discerning. We're not trying to feel good.
[32:02] We're just trying to feel differently.
[32:04] And so coming back to the GLP ones, when that volume gets
[32:09] turned up for me now, it's become a bit of an alert as to
[32:14] maybe I'm not doing the things that I know helped me to put a
[32:18] space between wanting to do something unhelpful and
[32:20] following through with it. And another thing on the GLP
[32:24] ones, you know, I had a gastric band when I was, I don't know, a
[32:30] time so bad with times and I know no one cares, but I always
[32:34] think someone's going to come out and be like she said, it's
[32:36] like, no, no gives a shit. She has, but I think it was
[32:39] about, it was in my early 20s, so about nearly 20 years ago,
[32:42] right? I had a gastric band.
[32:43] It wasn't in there for long because I overate and it slipped
[32:46] and I had to have it taken out, which is not uncommon because a
[32:50] lot of people who end up having gastric bands have difficulty
[32:54] the way that I did, not consuming food emotionally or in
[32:58] large amounts, but also feel desperate that they want to lose
[33:01] weight. And that's how how they got
[33:04] there in the 1st place. But I'll get my I'll get off my
[33:06] side box about that. And So what ends up happening is
[33:09] they have the band tightened and then they overeat, which is an
[33:12] objectively dangerous thing to do, doesn't split a kind of it's
[33:15] it's a horrible experience. It really is a horrible
[33:17] experience and it's very scary. And I was really glad to have it
[33:20] out. But when I see people on GLP,
[33:23] ones who aren't changing anything about the way they eat
[33:26] or like me with the gastric band are managing to lose weight
[33:30] because of, I don't know, net calories of like, OK, now all I
[33:33] have is a tub of hug and does everyday, which is basically
[33:35] what I did. I wasn't like, oh, now the
[33:38] weight loss is taking care of itself after 20 years of or 10
[33:41] years of me trying. Now isn't the time I'm going to
[33:44] learn how to cook. Are you joking me?
[33:48] Now is the time that I'm going to learn how to eat Snickers and
[33:53] wear little little shorts like that.
[33:55] This is my time. I'm going to go learn how to cut
[33:57] vegetables. Are you OK?
[33:59] So as a result, when the band was loosened or when it got
[34:03] taken out, I gained loads of weight.
[34:05] And so I know there are other people who can, who can speak to
[34:10] what's going on with people chemically and neurologically
[34:12] and physiologically when they're on GLP ones.
[34:16] But I can certainly tell you what will happen if you learn
[34:19] how to lose weight and don't learn how to keep it off.
[34:24] And or rather don't learn how to eat in order to keep it off or
[34:28] have done it in a way that is impossible to sustain.
[34:32] And one of the things I find really concerning is that the
[34:36] people who are in the position that I was in before I sort of
[34:38] unlearned that stuff never like to see the the scale going up,
[34:44] regardless of what the scale says.
[34:46] And so I think we're going to be transferring some eating
[34:48] disorders and the resurgence of thin is amazing.
[34:53] And that's OK. And we should all go say that.
[34:56] I worry we'll leak into medical overlooking is overlooking.
[35:04] Yeah, of people who are objectively unhealthy and
[35:08] malnourished, but because they're thin now, that's OK.
[35:13] Anyway I could go on a soapbox about it.
[35:15] Well, I mean, I find it interesting because I was like
[35:17] looking at looking at like the kind of research around this
[35:21] with judgment. Because I think a lot of what
[35:23] we're talking today and we're going to get to it is like self
[35:25] compassion, which, you know, is like a big part of me and a big
[35:29] part of you. You wrote a whole book on
[35:30] kindness and I think, you know, when you really ball all of our
[35:35] behaviors down, all of the things that all, whether it's
[35:37] food, whether it's how we look, whether it's how smart we think
[35:43] we are, whatever our insecurities are, right?
[35:44] Wherever we try to like overcompensate or try to get
[35:47] that, that I guess reassurance, all that love from the thing
[35:53] that we're doing. Some people, it's work, right?
[35:56] I think rejection and social judgement is a big part of this
[35:59] whole conversation. And I found this really
[36:02] interesting study published last week where they found that women
[36:06] who lost weight on Ozempic and had Ozempic face face more
[36:09] social judgement than those that didn't lose any weight at all.
[36:12] So like, let me just boil this down South.
[36:13] In this study, participants were asked to evaluate a fictional
[36:16] person based on their weight history.
[36:19] The person even lost weight using a GL P1 medication such as
[36:23] an Ozempic, lost weight through diet and exercise, or did not
[36:28] lose weight at all. What the results showed was that
[36:32] people viewed those who used GLP One medications more negatively
[36:38] than those who lost weight through traditional methods.
[36:42] But the most striking thing was that participants also rated the
[36:46] GLP 1 user more negatively than someone who would not less
[36:50] weight at all. And that's because they had this
[36:54] Azempic quick face. Who were the participants?
[37:00] What were they viewing? We did they want to hire them
[37:04] for the our job? Would they swap places with
[37:07] them? But it's interesting, I find
[37:08] like the social judgement on that, like we're obviously a lot
[37:13] of us are chasing the thin ideal that we were speaking about,
[37:17] right? And with that, a lot of people
[37:19] are now speaking about this azimpic face where you lose so
[37:22] much weight, but also a lot of muscle quite quickly.
[37:25] So it's quite stark. People can see when people are
[37:27] normally using it and they had the most judgement against that.
[37:32] I just find that whole. Did they know that they were on
[37:35] Ozempic, That those people were on Ozempic?
[37:37] Because having lived in a much bigger body, that's why I'm
[37:41] saying who was it, who was saying that?
[37:43] Who were the participants? Because I can tell you that if
[37:45] they were most of the people I came into contact with in shops
[37:50] and at school and at uni and on dating sites and wherever else,
[37:55] unfortunately I don't think the world has changed that much.
[37:58] So yes, I agree that a person who looks like they're glowing
[38:02] from good habits or healthy habits and is strong and has
[38:08] muscles and can't say bones, but now I'm just describing a land
[38:13] mammal. But like, you know, yes, I can.
[38:16] I can see that compared to that a person who looks, I don't
[38:19] know, like Gaunt and they haven't had a glass of water for
[38:21] a long time, etcetera. And I imagine that the Ozempic
[38:25] peace there would also be because of what I was describing
[38:27] earlier, which is that there will be a proportion of people
[38:29] who because they felt that they needed Ozempic in order to bring
[38:34] down their weight. It will have spoken to the fact
[38:36] that they were unable perhaps to keep up the sorts of objectively
[38:40] healthier habits that would enable them to, you know,
[38:44] balance out at a weight that they were happy with.
[38:47] That said, do I think that also Ozempic faces really just lost
[38:54] weight really quickly face, Right?
[38:55] Yeah. That's why I wonder whether
[38:57] these people knew, the participants knew that these
[38:59] people were on Ozempic, and therefore we're judging them for
[39:03] having not been able to sort of do it by themselves and just
[39:05] move more and eat less and all that stuff that I heard for a
[39:08] million years. Because being in a much bigger
[39:12] body, body I refuse to believe is regarded more positively.
[39:18] I don't. I'm not stressing.
[39:20] You're lying. No, I'm looking at this that
[39:21] they did know they're on GLP one.
[39:23] Yeah. So it says the GLP 1 users were
[39:26] socially penalized, not just compared to someone who lost
[39:28] weight through diet and exercise.
[39:29] They were also rated more harshly than someone who didn't
[39:31] lose weight in the first place. Quite.
[39:34] Because they're cheating, which is just bullshit.
[39:38] Yeah, it's just ridiculous. And also people see it that way.
[39:42] I'd like to be clear, just in case that clip is clipped.
[39:44] I'm not saying cheating, but. Don't worry, we're not going to
[39:48] make you do. It that way when they don't
[39:50] realize how much harder it is for some people than other
[39:53] people to make those choices. And even if it's not, whose
[39:55] business is it of yours? But I think it shows that how
[39:58] important the social understanding is so critical in
[40:01] this, you know, I think there is the ideal that I can't lose
[40:05] weight. I'm going to be more accepted,
[40:07] right? And it's interesting, I guess
[40:09] this study is kind of showing this like dilemma that people
[40:12] can face and I guess. In a, in a broader sense, you
[40:16] know, when even if people aren't using GRP ones, I guess a lot of
[40:21] the things that when people want to lose weight, maybe they think
[40:23] I'll be more accepted if I'm seen in this way or people might
[40:28] respect me more in this way. And it's like that.
[40:31] Is that how you felt? Is that how your journey went?
[40:34] Yes, yeah. And it was true, really.
[40:37] Yes. I feel undercover right now.
[40:39] Sometimes I think it's really and, and also, I mean, obviously
[40:43] it's reinforced also because living in a world where people
[40:45] do behave that way makes it easier than for you to respect
[40:48] yourself because you look like someone who should respect
[40:51] themselves. I think the mistake we make is
[40:54] we think we will be able to control ourselves and not like
[40:56] food anymore and change the way we behave because we're slimmer.
[40:59] But thin people are don't get hungry because they just look in
[41:02] the mirror and they think what's the point in food?
[41:05] Doughnuts aren't doughnuts aren't delicious now that I look
[41:08] so hot. And unfortunately, I have
[41:10] learned this is not the case. You are as hungry.
[41:16] It is as hard. People don't turn up everyday
[41:18] complimenting you. And that even that will only
[41:22] keep you OK with being hungry for so long before you think so.
[41:30] Yeah. No, the that's the problem is
[41:32] that the world applauds you. Life does become easier in my
[41:36] case, I have to say. So now I'm fit, right?
[41:41] I don't mind telling you, but I spin in the in the front row and
[41:46] there are very few. Apparently.
[41:49] Context in which? That's like what I do.
[41:51] Remember I got to tell you. I got to tell you when I saw you
[41:54] at spinning, I was like, I remember that on a couple of
[41:57] occasions I was like, who'd have thunk it?
[41:59] Who'd have thunk it? Look at me spinning next to her.
[42:02] No, yes, no, yes, my friend. I was driving to the top of the
[42:06] road for chocolate usually I wasn't walking, I wasn't doing
[42:10] anything. And now I'm spinning like a
[42:13] boss. And the reason I make that point
[42:16] is that now like for example, now I think I'm about, I don't
[42:20] know, I don't, I don't weigh myself, but I must be a few
[42:22] pounds bigger than I was like 2 years ago.
[42:25] For sure. Actually for sure when I see
[42:27] like on camera and stuff. Like that, I think you look
[42:30] great. Thank you.
[42:31] Me too. And and by the way, it's also
[42:33] because nothing has changed in terms of my habits.
[42:38] It'll be my age, it'll be hormones.
[42:39] It'll be like, I don't know, I had a few more days of eating,
[42:43] eating objectively, not helping yourself.
[42:45] Yeah, exactly. But it's not a mystery.
[42:48] And also the difference is that I'm no less strong when I
[42:53] exercise. And I still do all of those
[42:58] things that make me take care of myself.
[43:00] And I've realized actually, even from a keeping off lost weight
[43:06] perspective, if you treat yourself as though you were
[43:10] already worthy enough because you'd already achieved the Holy
[43:13] Grail of losing weight, you'll realise that there are loads of
[43:18] habits that we are putting on hold for when we've earned them
[43:20] by looking the right way that actually help us to get there
[43:24] more quickly if that's our ambition.
[43:26] I was like, well, when I lose weight, I'll be someone who
[43:27] exercises and drinks water and it's like, spoiler alert, those
[43:32] things are not unhelpful for weight loss, my friend.
[43:35] You know, like, or weight management.
[43:37] So all that to say that when I was swinging between extremes in
[43:42] my weight, it was because I wasn't fit and it was because I
[43:47] was doing really unhealthy things and not drinking water
[43:50] and not eating anything remotely vegetably.
[43:55] Billy, I've never had that one before.
[43:57] Because I, I mean unless I was like juicing celery to try to
[43:59] lose weight for like 2 1/2 days and then at KFC again like I was
[44:03] not Wellness. I attended Ted earlier this
[44:06] year, and I found myself in conversations with the founders
[44:09] of no watch. You've probably seen me wear
[44:11] something on my wrist, and lots of you have messaged me asking
[44:15] me what this is. It looks like a classic watch,
[44:17] but it's actually quietly tracking something much more
[44:20] meaningful, your autonomic nervous system.
[44:23] This is the system that governs everything from how you respond,
[44:26] from excitement to anxiety, calm to overwhelm.
[44:29] Most wearables just give you a score, but if you're anything
[44:32] like me, that score can sometimes make you feel worse,
[44:36] like you're already behind before your day even begins.
[44:39] No watch works differently. There is no judgement and there
[44:42] is no dopamine chasing dashboard.
[44:44] It simply reflects what your body is already experiencing and
[44:48] also helps you notice what it might be missing.
[44:50] It gives you minute by minute timeline of your stress
[44:52] responses and your recovery. The recovery is the most
[44:56] important part and it's the part that no one talks about and it
[44:59] is often the most revealing marker of our long term health.
[45:02] In just five days, it calibrates your body and it builds build
[45:05] your personal health fingerprint.
[45:07] You can try for free now for 30 days.
[45:10] And if you use the code LWBW, you can also get 15% off.
[45:14] If you want to understand your body not just through
[45:16] performance but through self-awareness, then this is
[45:19] where I'd begin. So how did you like intercept
[45:25] that then? Because I think a lot of people
[45:26] will connect to this, especially with food, but also maybe
[45:31] through other other habits that they feel ingrained with,
[45:37] whether it's mental health. I think mental health has a big
[45:40] part in all of this as well. How did you stop the swing?
[45:44] I started the the mission stopped being achieved this goal
[45:48] of losing weight if the goal became make it easy to do the
[45:53] things that enable you to lose weight and keep it off.
[45:56] So do the thing. Do the thing.
[45:58] Identify the behaviours that if some anyone did in a row, they
[46:02] would achieve the goal that you're after.
[46:04] And then rather than thinking that desire and desperation will
[46:08] be what drive you in moments where you don't want to carry on
[46:12] doing those new unfamiliar things, just trust in the
[46:18] concept of mastery. You don't even need to trust
[46:20] yourself. So I really, I started thinking,
[46:23] you know, when someone in addiction wants to achieve
[46:25] recovery, they don't think about being about recovery every day.
[46:29] They think about the next best choice, you know, one day at a
[46:32] time because you can't, you can't contest that.
[46:37] And those are those are populations with some of the
[46:39] like highest levels of shame and with so much working against
[46:43] them internally, externally, and yet you cannot push against, you
[46:48] know, this works. If I do this in a row and I keep
[46:51] doing this thing in a row, I will get and then sustain this
[46:55] outcome. And so I stopped making it so
[46:57] personal and I stopped making it rely on willpower and thinking
[47:03] that willpower and desire to change myself and being so fed
[47:08] up with myself were going to be the thing that kept me doing an
[47:13] unrealistic thing. Being hungry or even doing just
[47:15] a healthy thing, going to the gym, whatever else that that was
[47:18] going to be enough. My plan prior to thinking about
[47:21] changing my behaviour to get the outcome that I want or getting
[47:24] better at that behaviour in order to keep the outcome that I
[47:27] want was always like, well, if you're hungry, just look in the
[47:31] mirror and you're going to hate what you see so much that you
[47:34] won't eat. I mean, aside from being sad,
[47:37] that's just not going to work. I'm glad it doesn't work.
[47:41] I'm glad that eventually I was like, screw it, I'll be fat,
[47:44] give me some food. Yeah, I'm glad.
[47:46] Thank God. But yeah, that's the that's the
[47:51] turning point, really. And I always tell people, think
[47:54] about where you want to get to. Yes, but your plan is thinking
[47:58] about how you want to stay there and make it easy for yourself to
[48:02] stay there. And that's what you need to
[48:04] learn how to do differently. So I needed to learn how to do a
[48:07] number of things differently if I thought I'm going to wave a
[48:11] magic wand and tomorrow. Well.
[48:14] First of all, I needed to really address my second choice.
[48:18] I always thought I have to be in control of my first choice, but
[48:21] just make sure there's no this in the house and make sure
[48:23] there's no that in the house. And it's like, no, no, no, no,
[48:25] my friend, you need to think about what you're doing after
[48:27] you think you've been bad. But that for me was when the
[48:30] spiral would begin because I was eating from a place of I've
[48:33] screwed it. Shame I have to start again on
[48:37] Monday. And even just from a practical
[48:39] perspective, the net damage that that would do to my body, and I
[48:43] don't mean weight gain, although that was obviously one of the
[48:45] things, but just like feeling horrible.
[48:47] So that was your Step 2. It was all when you start.
[48:50] Spiralling. I had to change, yeah, I had to
[48:52] change the next choice I made when I thought I'd been bad.
[48:56] How did you do that? By thinking about the choice I'd
[48:59] make if I had been good and forcing myself to think that
[49:04] despite the fact I'm going to carry, you know, getting on
[49:06] board with the fact that I'm going to carry all these
[49:08] unhelpful thoughts and ideas that I wouldn't recommend to
[49:11] anyone else. Like you can only start on
[49:15] Monday wild and things like that, or you have to make it
[49:20] worse before you can make it better.
[49:21] And these things, I would just never recommend that to someone
[49:23] else. If not, even if I wanted them to
[49:25] help them, just even if I didn't want them to think I was kind of
[49:28] stupid, you know, like, oh, you have to eat everything in the
[49:31] house. This is your only choice.
[49:33] Yeah. And so I started thinking,
[49:36] right, what does it look like when I think I've been good?
[49:40] And that can be problematic because a lot of people will
[49:42] then swing back into, like, a control place.
[49:44] Yeah. And So what I tend to do is ask
[49:47] yourself, like, what will you feel proud of tomorrow as well?
[49:52] That's good, because that brings in gratitude.
[49:55] For your own capacity, Yeah. And also just, it also brings in
[49:59] a little bit of delayed, but it brings in a bit of the impulse
[50:02] control, like thinking just maybe if I just gave this
[50:05] another few, however long, how I feel about it would be
[50:09] different. Delayed gratification for me is
[50:12] one that I find it hard to get on board with because as I say,
[50:15] ADHD, my whole world is today. So I can't really rely on that.
[50:18] What I need to rely on is that I can make a choice I'll be proud
[50:22] of tomorrow. I can make a choice that I'd
[50:24] make if someone I really respected was watching me.
[50:26] I can make a choice that I would tell someone who I really love
[50:29] to make. And that tended to be a nice
[50:30] little criteria to land me in the moderate choice, right?
[50:35] Because if you just told me, make a choice you'll be proud
[50:37] of, there was a time where I would have been like salary.
[50:42] You're right. So now over time, as I've
[50:44] refined and understood more who I'm speaking to, I'm more
[50:47] careful in the examples that I give in that in that sense and
[50:50] more nuanced about it. But that was it.
[50:52] It was thinking about a, what do I need to actually make?
[50:55] What choices do I need to make easier for myself to engage in
[50:59] and therefore repeat as many times in a row until they're not
[51:04] difficult. That will not just get me to my
[51:08] goal, but make it easy to stay at my goal.
[51:11] So I wasn't terrified and hoping that more self hate and fear
[51:16] would drive me to build habits. What happens when that comes in?
[51:20] Because I know that this this to me makes so much sense and what
[51:22] you're saying. But I can also hear people
[51:25] shouting and going. But then I have this impulse
[51:28] control within me or I have the fear that, you know, there's a
[51:32] comfort of going back to what you know, you know, it's a
[51:35] comfort. So OK, I rationally know, Sheree
[51:39] said, Think about the mastery. Go to the next step.
[51:43] Think about the alternative. Think about what I'm going to
[51:45] be, you know, grateful for tomorrow or what the good choice
[51:49] is going to be tomorrow. But then what if it feels too
[51:53] much? It will.
[51:54] Sometimes you should anticipate that it will.
[51:56] That's why you don't want to be trusting yourself in times like
[51:59] this. You want to trust, but you want
[52:01] to trust yourself to be objectively capable of making
[52:05] the next best choice, which for a lot of all or nothing people
[52:07] like, like me, it means you're back in the game anyway because
[52:10] you're like, yeah, I've been good again, here we go.
[52:12] I'm good now. I don't want to ruin that.
[52:14] But you also want to assume, you know, there are things that I
[52:18] have had very helpful talking therapy around that have helped
[52:21] me to activate behaviours. And the way I see that is that I
[52:24] changed. I worked on my thoughts and then
[52:28] it became easier to change my behaviours.
[52:31] There are other things like food and some of them are more
[52:33] ingrained stuff where the self compassion works.
[52:37] But usually because then it turns into action or inaction.
[52:41] And so for me, I always say like assume that you won't want to do
[52:43] it because if you think that you should want to do it because of
[52:47] the long term outcome, what that ends up doing is reinforcing
[52:50] that you were stupid and weak before and you hate yourself.
[52:53] As opposed to you're just finding it hard to do something
[52:55] new in a row because you've done something the other way the
[52:57] whole time. So all that does is make us feel
[52:59] like a broken exception again, a lot of the time if we're because
[53:05] it reinforces this. Well, I know what to do and I
[53:07] know that it works and I'm still not doing it.
[53:09] You know, like all right, and there's another stick to beat
[53:11] myself with. Actually, all you want to do is
[53:14] to sit in front of yourself, sit in front of yourself.
[53:17] There's too much Wellness stuff. People are going to think you
[53:19] have to sit in front of a mirror, sit down and write down.
[53:22] If I'm already at the place I want to be, if it's like 6
[53:26] months from now, a year from now, whatever, and I'm telling
[53:30] the story of how I got there and why now it's easy for me to stay
[53:33] here. What am I doing differently?
[53:36] What am I not doing that I was doing then?
[53:40] How am I responding differently? Usually for a lot of us, it's
[53:45] how do I wish I was already behaving?
[53:47] Had I not learned or picked up or internalized these behaviours
[53:51] and thoughts? And then you ask yourself
[53:54] honestly, if I repeat these new choices in a row, do I feel that
[53:59] that will be possible and are often of, if not always, it's
[54:02] impossible to push back against that.
[54:04] And so then your task becomes whether it's external
[54:07] accountability or the way I go about it, because I live alone
[54:12] and I don't like having bodies. I mean, I have friends, but I
[54:16] don't like having like, oh, did you do?
[54:18] It just makes me want to rebel and be like, no, go away.
[54:20] You're not my mum. I think that if you just tell
[54:26] yourself that I will want to throw in the towel.
[54:30] Of course I will. This is new and unfamiliar, and
[54:33] that's how change works. I will go back to all the times
[54:37] in the past when I haven't managed to do this before,
[54:39] because that's objectively true. Yeah, a lot of the time.
[54:42] But I do believe that if I make the next best choice in a row,
[54:48] this will become easier. And so whatever I need to tell
[54:51] myself to make that happen, that's what I'm going to do.
[54:55] You know what my hey could to me, this really stuck in my
[54:57] brain because he's amazing. He's so eloquent speaking about
[55:01] his feelings and he's been through not to get dark hair,
[55:04] but like suicidal ideation to depression to autistic diagnosis
[55:09] in his 40s and 80. I mean, he's been through a lot
[55:11] and he he writes a lot through fiction, but he also does
[55:14] nonfiction. And I think the reason why he's
[55:16] so successful and sold 10 million books of his last copy
[55:20] was because people relate. He had this way of emotional
[55:24] granularity, which means being able to like express his
[55:27] feelings and people feel really seen.
[55:30] And he said something that, you know, on your worst day.
[55:33] So I'm thinking about the moments when people do self tell
[55:37] and go, gosh, I'm going to throw in the towel.
[55:39] He said to me, use your worst days as a reference bank.
[55:42] Don't use your best days as a reference bank.
[55:44] Use your worst days because the worst days you've already got
[55:46] through. And it's something that just
[55:49] stuck to me because I think we will have this thing when we are
[55:52] in our worst moments to think about all the best times.
[55:55] And it can sometimes make us feel that there's more disparity
[55:58] between the two. It's like, God, that was so
[56:00] good. I'm now feeling so bad, but
[56:02] actually like referencing back to like your worst days and
[56:05] like, no, I, I got through that. I don't know how, but I did.
[56:10] And like now I'm here and I'm going through something again,
[56:13] but I was there one day. There's something that I felt
[56:17] like so humane about that. Like actually that's another
[56:20] build of resilience. That's another building or
[56:22] building block. And that I don't know, that kind
[56:25] of connected to me that when I know I go through like tough
[56:27] times or days when I doubt myself or all those moments that
[56:31] kind of really rung true to me that I actually now do think
[56:36] that's maybe not just be hyper optimistic here.
[56:38] Let's actually think about the times when I did get through
[56:40] stuff because I did. There's something really
[56:43] empowering about that. I also love what he's doing to
[56:46] show us all that we can be vulnerable about things that are
[56:51] scary to talk about and share and demonstrating that we can
[56:56] take care of ourselves and also that at the same time be someone
[57:01] who people wildly, wildly respect and for countless
[57:10] reasons. And to be in the public eye and
[57:12] doing that so beautifully is is really.
[57:16] Yeah. And responsibly.
[57:19] It's really wonderful to see. And I think more of us need to
[57:22] see that that's possible, particularly women.
[57:24] I have to say that it's possible to be respected and at the same
[57:27] time be openly someone who's at risk of struggling and needing
[57:32] to pull back, and then also someone who's brilliant, you
[57:35] know, and not but, but, but what I was going to say about to
[57:43] build on thinking about your worst day.
[57:46] Sometimes when people are telling me that they're finding
[57:49] it hard to make the next best choice, I tell them to think
[57:54] about something they've done that's harder than making the
[57:56] next best choice. And the things that tend to be
[58:02] most powerful, even in a practical sense of getting
[58:07] people to the next choice via believing that they're capable
[58:12] of difficult things is really personal.
[58:15] And it's hard to get them to admit is the hardest thing
[58:19] they've done. Because a lot of the time the
[58:23] hardest things that we think people have done are the things
[58:25] that we aspire to be able to do, all the things that we can see.
[58:30] And the more I get to know people, I mean, myself included,
[58:34] like, first of all, the hardest things I've achieved are based
[58:39] in not doing things anymore. So just the absence of behavior,
[58:43] you're not measuring that all the time either.
[58:45] And even, and a lot of the time what people are saying to
[58:49] themselves is either I had to do that thing.
[58:52] I had no choice. So I shouldn't be giving myself
[58:55] credit for it. Like, I had to rise to the
[58:57] occasion. It was a horrible situation.
[58:58] Like, yeah, I got through it, but I had to.
[59:01] What else, you know, or they say to themselves, well, I shouldn't
[59:04] have been doing that in the 1st place.
[59:07] So when people who I've worked with on countless occasions will
[59:11] say to me, like I find it easier to run a company with 500 people
[59:16] in it or to stand on stage than I do to have some Haribo in my
[59:22] house. If they give the accomplishment
[59:28] the respect it deserves and allow it to have been one of the
[59:33] hardest things that they've done, then it can be an
[59:36] extraordinary powerful, an extraordinarily powerful tool in
[59:40] helping them to make the next best choice.
[59:42] So again, the self compassion, the lack of shame, the removing
[59:46] the judgement and just saying that's just the truth.
[59:49] And for as long as I'm embarrassed about it, I can't
[59:51] use it to my advantage, really. I also want to mention about the
[59:54] letter because in my new book I do the present letter and the
[59:59] future letter. To yourself, because about 10,
[1:00:03] maybe it was more than 10 years ago, I went to a retreat where
[1:00:07] they made me do that. I found it so difficult, first
[1:00:10] of all, because I was like, this feels so weird.
[1:00:12] This is so, so weird. But because I went every year to
[1:00:16] this retreat, they would post you this letter a year later.
[1:00:20] There's also something really powerful about writing it and
[1:00:22] then having someone else post it to you.
[1:00:23] So I don't know if you, like, you have to go to retreat shoes.
[1:00:26] You could say to a best friend, like, I'm going to stamp this
[1:00:28] and can you post this to me in a year?
[1:00:30] But I remember kind of writing it all down and kind of having
[1:00:35] this vision and it didn't, it didn't like wasn't like
[1:00:37] manifestation. It wasn't like this all became
[1:00:39] true. But it was something that was
[1:00:41] really interesting that like when you leave yourself enough
[1:00:43] space, like enough time, so many things do change that you're
[1:00:48] also unaware of because when things happen in your present,
[1:00:53] you forget what it was like a year ago.
[1:00:57] You forget how your thoughts have changed in a year.
[1:01:00] You forget all of that. And so sometimes we're so
[1:01:03] fixated and like the next thing that we need to get to the next
[1:01:06] way we need to improve why we're still not fully there, but we
[1:01:09] forget this like crazy long year that we've been through and the
[1:01:12] difference of where we were to where we are now.
[1:01:14] The only thing that's so really like so powerful in that.
[1:01:19] And when I was at this retreat, not wasn't a retreat as a
[1:01:21] conference like the last few days, we did this workshop
[1:01:24] called Life in Motion about like moments of transformation.
[1:01:29] And she said, can everyone go round and introduce themselves
[1:01:32] and what is different about them now to what was different five
[1:01:37] years ago? Like what would they not have
[1:01:39] expected today? And it was so interesting to
[1:01:42] like, actually think back to five years ago to where you
[1:01:46] were. And I guess for everyone, that's
[1:01:47] like COVID riots, 2021, sticking back to where you were in that
[1:01:52] moment and like where you are today.
[1:01:55] What did you say? Sorry.
[1:01:57] Well I said hey guys, I am very bad at asking for this but I
[1:02:02] wanted to stop for just one minute and ask a huge favour.
[1:02:06] If you want to hear more diverse conversations from female voices
[1:02:10] such as myself, I would love if you could hit subscribe.
[1:02:14] We worked so hard on this show to bring you some of the best
[1:02:17] guests in the world and having a female voice sometimes gives a
[1:02:20] different perspective and I really want to elevate more of
[1:02:22] that on this channel. So please hit subscribe if
[1:02:25] that's important to you, as it is to me.
[1:02:28] So in. COVID.
[1:02:30] No, it's like in COVID, I found COVID really hard because I went
[1:02:33] through a breakup, went back to living on my own.
[1:02:39] And that was quite scary because the whole world was shutting
[1:02:41] down and you're like, I'm now on my own and I'm not going to see
[1:02:46] anyone. And I'm quite terrified.
[1:02:49] We also filmed live well, not live what be well live what we
[1:02:52] hadn't started. We were filming for the
[1:02:55] not-for-profit that I had be Wired Collective.
[1:02:58] We used to film in these studios and we used to get, you know,
[1:03:00] Gary Barlow would come in, he was one of our ambassadors, and
[1:03:03] he would talk about his eating disorder.
[1:03:05] He had bulimia. And then we would have somebody
[1:03:07] who was a bulimic expert come in and talk about it.
[1:03:09] And we would use these videos to kind of help create a cycle of
[1:03:14] getting to help people. And that was kind of like my
[1:03:17] journey, my own personal journey of like where I first started.
[1:03:21] And then COVID stopped started and I was like, how do I film?
[1:03:25] Like how do I, how do I do these things?
[1:03:27] And I thought maybe I'll start a podcast.
[1:03:30] I was also terrified at the time of listening to the news because
[1:03:32] every time I listen to the news, I felt like I was going to die
[1:03:34] because it was like these big broadcasts, we kind of all
[1:03:37] forgotten about how the effect of COVID happened.
[1:03:39] But like every day when I'd listen to the news, I'd be like,
[1:03:42] more people have died. Like I'd be terrified about my
[1:03:45] family. And so I kind of just shut it
[1:03:47] off. And then what I did was I like
[1:03:49] maybe if I start a podcast and speak to experts about lifestyle
[1:03:53] interventions, but also just about like what we can control
[1:03:57] and how we can feel, maybe that's going to help people.
[1:04:00] Maybe that's going to be positive.
[1:04:02] But also I was like positive for myself.
[1:04:04] So I literally just started it in my bedroom with like a 20 LB
[1:04:08] mic and this guy from Fiverr that I paid like 25 lbs to edit
[1:04:12] an episode and just started this.
[1:04:15] I had no idea like even how to like host the podcast.
[1:04:18] Like what do I even need a platform?
[1:04:19] Like how do I distribute? I had no idea.
[1:04:21] Within four days, I did the first one, and then the second
[1:04:24] one came out with Victoria Pendleton.
[1:04:26] And she was speaking about, like, her depression, and she
[1:04:29] said some things that she'd never said live before.
[1:04:31] And then that weirdly made the press.
[1:04:33] And I was like, this is where people, like, listen to the
[1:04:35] show. And it was like this crazy
[1:04:37] listenership. But, you know, I hadn't, like,
[1:04:40] advertised it. And it was not only giving me
[1:04:43] nourishment but obviously connecting to other people.
[1:04:46] So when I was like sitting there was like, wow, That was actually
[1:04:48] when I literally started the show in my bedroom in Brixton.
[1:04:53] Wow. And just before I came out, we
[1:04:54] had a billboard in Leicester Square.
[1:04:56] I was just thinking. Maximum respect.
[1:05:01] Maximum respect. You're someone for whom COVID
[1:05:05] was important and formative. I just dated losers like it was
[1:05:08] end of days. I kind of, I worked myself into
[1:05:12] obsession. Like I kind of used that in my
[1:05:16] sad state, in a very sad state to like to try and make
[1:05:21] something different, right? And I don't know, it's a weird
[1:05:25] thing that when you're thinking about five years, we're like, it
[1:05:28] doesn't feel that long, But what you can do in those five years
[1:05:31] is astronomical. I never thought I'd write a
[1:05:34] book. Like it's all these like weird
[1:05:36] things. I just never had any self belief
[1:05:38] for myself. I never thought that I would
[1:05:40] ever do that. And I think that even just a
[1:05:44] year and like 5 years, we think about five years.
[1:05:46] Not been that long, but actually it's massive.
[1:05:50] And I think when we get caught in these loops right within
[1:05:54] ourselves, it's all in that one moment.
[1:05:56] There's there's not the vastness of like there's so much more
[1:06:01] that can happen in your lifetime because we're so fixated on like
[1:06:05] the now, like with you at the food, like this is going to help
[1:06:08] me now as opposed to that. And I think the the letter thing
[1:06:11] is so powerful, what you said. Thank you.
[1:06:14] I think it's that kind of resolutions thinking, like the
[1:06:17] resolutions that are still there are, yeah, the ones that have
[1:06:22] sort of stuck around often because you're busy learning
[1:06:27] other stuff and doing other stuff.
[1:06:28] And as I say, you don't know what you've stopped doing, even
[1:06:32] if it's like I've stopped getting in my own way and
[1:06:34] therefore, you know, you. We learn all the time.
[1:06:37] It's just often, if it's just automated more quickly or we're
[1:06:41] distracted on our way to something else whilst it becomes
[1:06:44] automated, you know, we're always engaging in habits.
[1:06:47] But what I mean, maximum respect to you.
[1:06:50] That's a lot to do in five years.
[1:06:52] And yeah, it's interesting about COVID, isn't it?
[1:06:54] Because I've always been, I've always known that I'm
[1:06:58] dissociative after and during traumatic experiences.
[1:07:04] But it's interesting to watch the rest of the world act like
[1:07:07] it never happened. We all went inside.
[1:07:10] The whole world went inside. People were fighting in Waitrose
[1:07:13] for toilet paper and stuff, like.
[1:07:15] And now we're like, I mean, I mean, there's various domains of
[1:07:19] society that will very much be feeling it and remembering it.
[1:07:22] But as a global collective experience, Yeah.
[1:07:26] The fact if you had told me a year before COVID, we're all
[1:07:29] going to go inside and be terrified and the Queen's going
[1:07:33] to come out and it's going to be serious.
[1:07:35] I know more serious stuff than the queen coming out.
[1:07:37] OK. But that was a moment for me.
[1:07:39] I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa. Yeah.
[1:07:42] Oh, God. And as I say, I don't want to
[1:07:43] keep going back to it. But some of the people, myself
[1:07:45] and other women dated who? Do you look at yourself
[1:07:49] differently now to five years ago?
[1:07:51] Again, I think it must be an age thing as well, but yeah, I mean,
[1:07:54] I just don't worry about so many of the things I used to worry
[1:07:57] about. And the way that I notice it is
[1:07:59] when I see it in other people. Yeah.
[1:08:02] Like if I see someone who's really, really codependent, I
[1:08:06] can see it. Really.
[1:08:08] Yeah. What do you see?
[1:08:09] What's the signs that you're seeing someone who's
[1:08:11] codependent? I can see that they are not
[1:08:14] going to be OK without they can fit you like their body cannot
[1:08:18] be calm without someone saying that someone else something
[1:08:22] outside of them. The same way addiction works,
[1:08:24] you know, kind of like getting a hit on that.
[1:08:26] And then it doesn't relieve them for long because it's not
[1:08:30] substantive for someone to say like, you're OK, I still like
[1:08:33] you. I'm going to be there.
[1:08:35] And I feel quite proud that I've got to a stage where I'm not to
[1:08:42] an unhealthy degree, and I very much was.
[1:08:45] I've also got to a stage where I don't kind of rehearse how I
[1:08:48] should be before I get somewhere because people are going to
[1:08:53] expect me to be like fun or on form or whatever.
[1:08:57] And actually that means I go to more things because it means I
[1:09:01] don't flag out. I try not to use word flag out
[1:09:03] because it's how I think other people think that.
[1:09:05] But I, yeah, I just kind of show up as I am.
[1:09:10] And that's definitely better. And as I say, I'm just more open
[1:09:15] to getting it wrong. Like I remember my first book, I
[1:09:21] called my agent and I think the publicist, the Pan Mac Jess,
[1:09:27] amazing. She was amazing.
[1:09:28] And like late at night saying that I like found I think one
[1:09:33] thing like a typo in my book and that was going to be the end of
[1:09:37] me. I was mortified.
[1:09:41] Now, I mean, this is, you know, the struggle of doing well.
[1:09:45] But I saw, I laughed so much when I saw this review about my
[1:09:50] book, my most successful book by far and the one that's helped
[1:09:53] the most people. I saw a review that said this is
[1:09:57] even a waste of digital space. And I thought, lol, like
[1:10:02] genuinely, I just thought this person is actually really funny.
[1:10:06] Like I wouldn't go out of my way to say it online to another
[1:10:09] human who's going to read it. But if maybe someone said that
[1:10:15] to me in a pub or something, I think it was quite a funny way
[1:10:18] to diss a book. So I never would have thought
[1:10:21] that I would hold that kind of thing lightly.
[1:10:23] And I have to say that also comes down to the hundreds of
[1:10:25] people who will write to you and say thank you, carry on doing
[1:10:28] what you're doing. Or it's helped me, or it's to
[1:10:30] help my mom, or it's helped my sister or it's helped, you know,
[1:10:33] my friend. And and so I, yeah, I wouldn't
[1:10:36] have thought that I'd be able to internalize the good stuff and
[1:10:39] the positive stuff enough and be more present and actually think,
[1:10:43] yeah, thank you. I'm proud that I helped you.
[1:10:47] And then the gift with that also came that I could hold it
[1:10:50] lightly, that actually, I think being really insecure made me
[1:10:53] quite self-centered, actually. Really.
[1:10:55] Yeah. Because it makes you think like,
[1:10:56] they're talking about me. People are doing this.
[1:10:58] People are doing that. People are doing that.
[1:10:59] It's an interesting. It's a fine line.
[1:11:01] The less secure I am, sorry, the more secure I am, the more I'm
[1:11:04] like, well, I'm a drop in the ocean.
[1:11:05] I'll get it wrong sometimes. I.
[1:11:07] Think that's human, right? I think like knowing that like,
[1:11:09] oh part. And I think that's the fear of
[1:11:11] platforms. Like I'm always scared about
[1:11:14] saying something wrong. But then am I authentic if I'm
[1:11:18] not, you know, of course I'm going to say things wrong.
[1:11:21] Of course, of course people are going to say things and I don't
[1:11:23] think there's any like malice and saying that, you know, it's
[1:11:26] not like you're intentionally trying to do something wrong,
[1:11:30] but there's always a fear when you put yourself out there that
[1:11:33] people are going to knock you down.
[1:11:35] And I think that's reason. I mean, even if you're like,
[1:11:37] you're not having a platform and I think you're in like social
[1:11:40] situations and maybe you say something that didn't maybe
[1:11:42] didn't go down right And it wasn't from malice.
[1:11:45] You always have that social fear, right, that oh gosh, I
[1:11:48] upset that person. Or was that did I come across in
[1:11:52] the wrong way or was I just stressed?
[1:11:54] I just didn't think. And then we can go.
[1:11:56] That's when like the the rejection and like the the shame
[1:12:00] and all of those approach in. And I think like making that
[1:12:02] universal was I think the worry if you aren't like that is then
[1:12:05] you're just not becoming authentic.
[1:12:09] And then it becomes a scripted version of you that you're kind
[1:12:12] of becoming like, well, I should say these things because I'm
[1:12:14] scared. You know, I'm scared of like,
[1:12:16] gosh, should I cite this thing wrong?
[1:12:19] Or am I worried about saying something incorrectly?
[1:12:22] And then I think you kind of lose part of the humour in it.
[1:12:25] I have to say on reflection, I I mean, obviously I agree with
[1:12:28] you, don't be going around trolling people online like
[1:12:31] trying to help. But I do think that it's also
[1:12:36] also I don't think that some people should be speaking with
[1:12:39] absolute license on dangerous nonsense.
[1:12:42] And also I think but. That's different.
[1:12:45] That's people who preach and that's people who I think maybe
[1:12:48] act like they do know everything and say it was such certainty
[1:12:55] that it makes it feel right. Yeah, and they block people who
[1:12:57] give them any feedback. Don't get me wrong, if someone's
[1:13:00] hideous, I always think to myself, if someone comes and
[1:13:02] they say on to my Instagram page and I know that I have a
[1:13:04] negligible number of followers compared to you, someone comes
[1:13:07] into my on to my Instagram, Instagram page and decides to be
[1:13:10] like it's rubbish here and starts being beefy.
[1:13:14] I'll be like, it's the equivalent of me going into a
[1:13:16] shop and being like eww. And they'd be like, get out of
[1:13:20] the shop then there's loads of shops.
[1:13:22] The thing I found mad about that I don't even know how we got on
[1:13:24] for someone to be like around haters.
[1:13:26] Haters going to. Hate I I I mean some people say
[1:13:28] things like oh, I hate her vocal fry on.
[1:13:31] What the hell is a vocal fry? The way I speak, like apparently
[1:13:35] the way that my voice can go and I'm kind of like, well, then
[1:13:38] just leave. I don't know, it's weird.
[1:13:41] I just can't. There's a thing about me where
[1:13:43] I'm like IA 100% know that I'm not going to relate to everyone
[1:13:46] because if I did, that will be wipped.
[1:13:48] Like I'm very aware of that, but I don't know if there's
[1:13:52] something is that I don't connect to somebody or there's
[1:13:54] something about someone else that I'm not attuned with.
[1:13:59] I would just fun follow. Yeah, no, you don't have to be
[1:14:02] there. I don't know the I don't
[1:14:03] understand the the negativity. I think I don't understand the
[1:14:08] execution because I've had a number of people very not even
[1:14:12] everything would have to be nice, like reasonably message me
[1:14:15] and go, Hey, you know that word you used?
[1:14:17] Like it's actually not cool because of this.
[1:14:21] And I'll be like, oh, cool, Either I agree or if I don't,
[1:14:27] thanks either way, you know, like, but I always whenever
[1:14:30] someone's like really out of order, which is rare, but I'll
[1:14:33] but again, my platform is much so I I don't want to speak to
[1:14:36] people who've got much larger groups of people that they're
[1:14:38] speaking to. I always kind of go back with,
[1:14:44] are you doing this because you want me to change?
[1:14:47] And I know it sounds facetious, but I'm like, I am in the
[1:14:49] business of change and this isn't going to do it.
[1:14:52] My whole thing is that hatefulness doesn't create
[1:14:55] change. That's my whole thing.
[1:14:57] So I don't know how long you've been around this shop of mine,
[1:15:01] but that's one thing to absorb for sure.
[1:15:05] And I do think though, when I started writing books, people
[1:15:08] would say things to me like, what does it matter?
[1:15:09] Like, you wouldn't be friends with these people anyway.
[1:15:12] Like, they're just haters. They're just, they're just
[1:15:14] jealous of you or that actually, no one said they were jealous of
[1:15:17] me. They would just be like, people
[1:15:18] just hateful online and mean and whatever else.
[1:15:20] And it didn't really land. And I think if I'm honest, it's
[1:15:25] partly because I had my own insecurities and hadn't quite
[1:15:28] got straight what I did. Know what I didn't know.
[1:15:32] Yeah. And so sometimes if someone
[1:15:34] would ask me something, I genuinely wanted to run into a
[1:15:36] cave because I was like, I don't know the answer to that.
[1:15:38] I shouldn't be here. And then I'd be like, I haven't
[1:15:41] learned the answer to that yet. If I choose to, I will.
[1:15:45] Yeah. It's not like I'm incapable.
[1:15:46] I haven't come upon that information.
[1:15:47] That does not mean all the other information that could be useful
[1:15:50] to other people has now gone away.
[1:15:52] And so for me, that became quite helpful because I was just
[1:15:55] swinging back and forth between like, I'm going to delete all
[1:16:00] Instagram and all of it. I hate it.
[1:16:02] People are horrible, too. Well, Donald Trump goes around
[1:16:06] saying whatever he likes, so maybe I can.
[1:16:08] The boy doesn't know. And I was like these two.
[1:16:10] Extremes. Extremes, dude.
[1:16:12] And I found a place in the middle where I kind of thought,
[1:16:15] OK, I don't know everything. I will hear and listen and
[1:16:19] change and course correct. Yeah, and I'm pretty sure it's
[1:16:25] been 40 something years now. I'm not saying that because I'm
[1:16:29] I'm ashamed of my age. I'm saying that so I genuinely
[1:16:31] don't remember if I'm 41 or 42. And I have yet to want to hurt
[1:16:39] other people, not least in order to make money, which I've not
[1:16:46] been successful at frankly. So in the pursuit regardless.
[1:16:50] And so I'm pretty sure that someone who's coming to be
[1:16:53] horrible to me is being horrible to themselves and other people
[1:16:57] also, like, it's not as personal.
[1:16:59] So those two kind of hooks have helped me.
[1:17:01] Yeah. But it wasn't landing to think
[1:17:03] like, well, people go around telling people to do all sorts
[1:17:05] of stuff. They tell them to, like, do bum
[1:17:07] hole sunbathing. Have you seen that?
[1:17:10] Vitamin. D through your bum hole.
[1:17:13] Wellness has gone wrong. They do dude.
[1:17:17] And listen, if it makes you feel good, whatever, it's true.
[1:17:21] Have you not now? Do you know what?
[1:17:22] Now that we've said it and all our phones are in here, you're
[1:17:25] going to you're going to see it. I'm going to see it.
[1:17:27] Yes, and I'm not recommending it.
[1:17:28] Would you know what? Just put a bit of sunscreen on
[1:17:31] there. Sunscreen, that was your first
[1:17:34] thought? Just make sure there's SPF
[1:17:37] there. No, but honestly, like it's
[1:17:40] wild. And sometimes I think that when
[1:17:42] you're on the edge of really getting it right, that's when
[1:17:45] people know they can come for you, because otherwise they're
[1:17:48] not coming for the people who give that advice.
[1:17:50] That's true. I mean, I love, there's been so
[1:17:53] many moments in episodes where people just say things and I'm
[1:17:56] like, wow. So we were doing a porn episode
[1:17:58] last week and someone was saying it was a fetish with porridge.
[1:18:01] And I kind of just, it just lost me.
[1:18:04] It just lost me. I was spiralled.
[1:18:06] You know what, though? That's another thing.
[1:18:08] Like I wouldn't have been this child even five years ago, 10
[1:18:11] years ago. See, and this is the thing, like
[1:18:13] I know at the beginning you're like, I don't know if I have and
[1:18:15] I think I'm back, but I do these these are massive changes.
[1:18:18] It's just because it now feels more normalized.
[1:18:22] I've collected data you've. Collected data.
[1:18:24] Just I have to say, like I think we give a lot of credit.
[1:18:27] This is what I mean about like do it in a row and prove that
[1:18:29] it's possible. And the rest does get easier to
[1:18:32] deal with. Think a lot of the time we're
[1:18:34] like, I'm not, but I see things like, of course you can do it.
[1:18:38] You are a goddess and you deserve to do it and you're a
[1:18:41] special flower and sure you are and we are and great.
[1:18:46] But if you haven't done it and seen it happen, then in my case,
[1:18:50] your nervous system is not listening.
[1:18:52] Whereas what I have done is noticed that every time I was a
[1:18:55] little bit more myself and said things like that thing I just
[1:18:58] said and got it wrong and then people kind of piled on the
[1:19:04] person who wasn't being taking easy easy on me.
[1:19:07] I was collecting data and my body was listening and so taking
[1:19:10] the next best step, which for me was behaving as though I hadn't
[1:19:15] done anything horrible, hideous. Which meant not retreating, not
[1:19:19] spiraling. And ultimately I'm someone who
[1:19:22] is only ever really making things much better or much worse
[1:19:25] at speed. So picking the much better meant
[1:19:28] that I collected enough examples that I know that the more
[1:19:33] myself, the more myself I am, the better I do.
[1:19:38] Even just work wise and even if it is because it kind of
[1:19:41] refines, it takes out the people who are not my vibe.
[1:19:46] Like Matt Hagues says that you do like social like online
[1:19:50] exfoliation. Yeah, when he detoxification.
[1:19:53] Yeah, I had him say that one SEC when he loses followers because
[1:19:56] he said something like, yeah, really nice or correct.
[1:19:59] Yeah. And it's like, well, cool, go
[1:20:01] there. Well, my shop filled with
[1:20:03] hateful people, not even hateful people who hate me.
[1:20:06] You said something really interesting about other people,
[1:20:07] which I think we have to end on. You said hatefulness doesn't
[1:20:10] create change and that is so much kind of central to I guess
[1:20:16] the entirety of our conversation.
[1:20:18] It's the centralness part of my book Self compassion.
[1:20:22] You wrote the kindness method like it's for us, both of us
[1:20:27] sitting here. It's such a big part of the work
[1:20:29] that we both do. And I'm, you know, for me, I try
[1:20:33] and bring in similar to you, like a lot of the science, but
[1:20:36] you also can't forget the Eastern philosophy that connects
[1:20:39] to this. And I hold them to on equal
[1:20:41] measures because I think there's so much wisdom in in Eastern
[1:20:44] philosophy. Yes, you can't show association
[1:20:48] and you can't deal with these like random controlled trials.
[1:20:50] But I do think also, you know, you have people like Socrates
[1:20:53] that said, know thyself. The Buddha said there's no fixed
[1:20:57] self to know. Aristotle said you can't love
[1:21:00] what you don't understand. You know, these are going back
[1:21:06] for years and beautiful like philosophy.
[1:21:11] I kind of think we would have understood that by now, but we
[1:21:15] find it. And I'm talking from personal
[1:21:18] experience too, not just everyone, you know, like we find
[1:21:20] it quite difficult. So why haven't we?
[1:21:23] Why haven't we figured that out? I think we're conflating know
[1:21:28] yourself with love yourself immediately.
[1:21:33] Forgive yourself for everything. And so I don't, I think, if I
[1:21:39] may add to Plato, who by the way also has, by the way, you ever
[1:21:44] want to feel good about reviews, go read the reviews under
[1:21:48] Plato's Republic or some absolute masterpieces of work.
[1:21:52] People will be like, yeah, meh. And you're like, OK.
[1:21:59] I think just a lot of people think that when I say be
[1:22:01] compassionate towards yourself, the ambition is to love
[1:22:04] yourself. And it's not.
[1:22:06] It's just to be fair and reasonable.
[1:22:09] Human. Yeah, but also just like,
[1:22:11] literally just fair and smart and reasonable the way you would
[1:22:15] for another person. And so I think knowing yourself
[1:22:20] and just, you know, I don't think it's about finding
[1:22:22] yourself. I think it's about meeting
[1:22:25] yourself, being cool with who you meet, and then going from
[1:22:28] there. It's so true because I think
[1:22:30] this whole like, I mean, it's interesting.
[1:22:32] Again, I'm going to reference where I've just been because we
[1:22:34] had so many of these conversations.
[1:22:35] I hosted a workshop on this and it was 80% American in the room,
[1:22:40] 20% English. And I, you know, I was like, you
[1:22:43] know, self compassion can feel so awkward.
[1:22:46] And all the Americans are like, no, it doesn't.
[1:22:48] Like we find compassion like great.
[1:22:50] Like why are you finding it? You know, why do you say that?
[1:22:53] People can find it hard? And I'm like, well, in British
[1:22:55] culture we can. Do you mean out loud?
[1:22:59] Do we mix it up with self promotion, which I also think is
[1:23:02] fine by the way, but do you think that's what it is?
[1:23:05] No, I think, I think people, I mean Oliver Bertman said to me,
[1:23:08] I always reference them when you feel the cringe, lean into the
[1:23:10] cringe. And when someone would be like,
[1:23:12] oh, have more self compassion, I would be like, oh, and have this
[1:23:16] like weird moment of like, hmm, but that doesn't have no, what I
[1:23:23] need to like keep going and like keep pushing.
[1:23:25] Like that's really important for change.
[1:23:27] You know, it's like that mindset of like, just keep pushing
[1:23:30] forward, push the feelings back because you've got to keep
[1:23:33] going, you know, keep calm, carry on.
[1:23:35] It's the very like it's very British term.
[1:23:37] And it was so interesting to see the two different reflections.
[1:23:40] And maybe I just had a way poorer relationship with it
[1:23:44] before. I may have completely different
[1:23:46] relationship with now. I don't see it in that way.
[1:23:48] But I think sometimes, you know, when I can go and do talks
[1:23:52] around the central theme, there's a lot of people that I
[1:23:55] can see the resistance and not being like, Christ, she's going
[1:23:57] to tell me to love myself. And I'm like, no, it's not about
[1:24:00] that. It's really not about that.
[1:24:02] But I think that is the analogy in in Britain that we can have.
[1:24:05] And it's really interesting that the Americans don't.
[1:24:08] I can't speak to that as well as you can, but I do think that
[1:24:12] maybe don't worry about loving yourself and just worry about
[1:24:17] not behaving as though you hate yourself and start from there
[1:24:20] maybe. So someone listening maybe hates
[1:24:22] themself. Sometimes, yeah.
[1:24:24] Where do they start? Well, I again, I mean, hate
[1:24:28] yourself is on a on a scale, you know, I'm certainly not speaking
[1:24:31] to people at the sharp end for whom it would this wouldn't be
[1:24:34] like a safe conversation. But I do think that a, we should
[1:24:39] assume that for evolutionary reasons, we are wired to
[1:24:43] remember our threats and our deficits so we can protect
[1:24:46] ourselves. So your brain is not there to
[1:24:47] make you happy. It's there to keep you safe.
[1:24:49] So just knowing that and going oh, of course.
[1:24:51] Yeah. The kind of catching it that
[1:24:52] that observer stuff, ancient wisdom vibes and science helps
[1:25:00] those fundamentals. But also, again, I'm all about
[1:25:04] do it until you've got proof and then you'll feel it and think
[1:25:07] it. I know that there are many
[1:25:10] different formulas and variations of that, all of which
[1:25:13] work depending on who you're working with and what you're
[1:25:17] working, what you're working with.
[1:25:18] But for me, it's always a case of do it in a row.
[1:25:22] Notice what happens when it's easier, and notice what happens
[1:25:26] when you prove to yourself that you know how to make it easier
[1:25:29] to make the next hardest choice. And then it makes it easier to
[1:25:34] be kind to yourself, not because you've achieved a goal, but
[1:25:40] because of the capacity that you've shown in the pursuit of
[1:25:42] achieving it, in my opinion. I also got to think we've got to
[1:25:46] remember the pursuit sometimes is the fun part of it, even
[1:25:49] though it doesn't feel like in the moment since she felt when
[1:25:52] you get to maybe where you feel some relief.
[1:25:55] I don't, but I do well in in some contexts.
[1:25:59] Of course I know what you mean. I'm obviously being contrary.
[1:26:03] So we have useful stuff to clip up.
[1:26:07] I mean more that No, I mean more that sometimes it is difficult
[1:26:10] on the way. But again, it's about
[1:26:15] acknowledging that if it wasn't difficult, you would have done
[1:26:17] it by now. Yeah.
[1:26:18] And that you're choosing to make it easier.
[1:26:20] And also the harder it is, the more transferable it is.
[1:26:23] I don't mean and like what doesn't kill you makes you
[1:26:25] stronger. I mean, it's not even in that
[1:26:28] domain. If you allow yourself to think
[1:26:31] this was really hard. And so now this other thing in a
[1:26:35] totally different area that I don't believe in myself.
[1:26:37] And if I allow myself to think that this was not like
[1:26:40] objectively marathon hard, but for me was don't eat everything
[1:26:45] in the house hard, then it's easier for me to draw on that
[1:26:49] capacity because of the delta, because of the progress that I
[1:26:52] had and where I started and where I am now and how hard it
[1:26:54] was for me without judgment. And so now if I want to do
[1:26:58] something really hard that other people think is really hard,
[1:27:02] like this kind of thing or speaking on stage, whatever
[1:27:06] else, I don't think about the things that other people think
[1:27:10] are hard for me or should be hard for everyone.
[1:27:13] I think about the things that I managed not to do anymore when
[1:27:16] it's hard or when life is hard, and how difficult I found it to
[1:27:21] stay on track with those things. And so the rewards kind of come
[1:27:24] out in different places. So last question is, what does
[1:27:28] live well be well mean to you? Make the choices you'll be proud
[1:27:34] that you made when you look back on this moment tomorrow.
[1:27:38] Make the choices you would tell someone you love to make if they
[1:27:42] were facing the same challenges that you are, to know what the
[1:27:45] next best choice is and make the choice that you would make if
[1:27:50] someone you really respect was watching you.
[1:27:53] And the choices you make will help you to live well and be
[1:27:58] well in my opinion. I mean, it's a full circle to
[1:28:01] the very beginning. Thank you.
[1:28:03] Thank you, Cheru, for coming on. Pleasure.
[1:28:04] Thank you for having me. I hope you listen to this
[1:28:06] podcast. I won't have made it to this
[1:28:08] point. I would have been distracted by
[1:28:10] a bird or a frying pan that's burning down my house, or a
[1:28:15] meeting that I've forgotten to attend because I am riddled with
[1:28:18] ADHD. And on that night, whoever has
[1:28:22] listened to this point, thank you.

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