# Rejection, resilience and the road to prison: Claude Robinson & Vince Hurley Pt.1

An episode of [I Catch Killers with Gary Jubelin](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1506667049), 18 Apr 2026, 1 h 04 min.

Audio: https://p.podderapp.com/2544644999/traffic.omny.fm/d/clips/2fb3740d-3436-44af-8cc0-a91900716aa5/5bc8c2ed-b718-4f44-beb3-ac2a005246cc/51467744-6835-4d28-a787-b42f0017b132/audio.mp3?utm_source=Podcast&in_playlist=786928c3-10c1-4cef-a7bf-ac2a005246d0

Is the ‘tough on crime approach’ working to keep people safe? In this episode of I Catch Killers, Gary is joined by two men from opposite sides of the law who have arrived at the same radical conclusion - the justice system is broken for everyone. Dr Vince Hurley is a former Detective turned academic, and Claude Robinson is a former heroin addict and prisoner who now runs Rainbow Lodge, a residential center helping high-risk men transition from prison back into society. Together, they challenge everything we think we know about the justice system. This episode contains descriptions of men’s violence against women. If you or anyone you know needs support or information, contact 1800 RESPECT on 1800 737 732. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

## Transcript

[0:01] Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.
[0:05] Speaker 1: Detective sy aside of life the average person is never
[0:08] Speaker 1: exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop.
[0:11] Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years, I was catching killers.
[0:14] Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a
[0:16] Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,
[0:20] Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.
[0:23] Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories
[0:26] Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw
[0:28] Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some
[0:31] Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because
[0:34] Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.
[0:38] Speaker 1: Join me now, as I take you into this world.
[0:46] Speaker 1: If you keep doing the same things, you'll end up
[0:49] Speaker 1: getting the same results. That's saying could be relevant to
[0:52] Speaker 1: the way we fight crime. But perhaps there is a
[0:55] Speaker 1: better way. The two former guests I have back in
[0:59] Speaker 1: the studio today they certainly think there is. They're both
[1:02] Speaker 1: innovative thinkers and are passionate about reducing crime. I have
[1:06] Speaker 1: with me Claude Robertson, a former prisoner who has been shot, stabbed,
[1:11] Speaker 1: and addicted to heroin, but now cares for men that
[1:14] Speaker 1: no one else cares for. Managing the Rainbow Lodge, he
[1:18] Speaker 1: helps men transition back into the community after prison. And
[1:22] Speaker 1: doctor Vince Hurley, a former detective superintendent with the New
[1:26] Speaker 1: South Wales Police who's turned into an academic, a university
[1:30] Speaker 1: lecturer specializing in contemporary role of policing and policing in
[1:34] Speaker 1: today's society. We talk about all things crime and discuss
[1:38] Speaker 1: some of the innovative ways of combating crime. Claude Robertson,
[1:44] Speaker 1: Welcome to I Catch Killers again.
[1:46] Speaker 2: Thanks for having me back. Gary.
[1:48] Speaker 1: Well, it's been a while since we had you on
[1:50] Speaker 1: as a guest, but you've always got some interesting stuff
[1:54] Speaker 1: to talk about. And so I've also brought along another
[1:58] Speaker 1: friend of yours. Or is it fair enough to call
[2:00] Speaker 1: him a friend? Thinks early, seeing at the end of
[2:03] Speaker 1: the table there he is.
[2:04] Speaker 2: Actually I've got a funny story about how I got
[2:07] Speaker 2: to meet Vince. We were recording the Four Corners at
[2:10] Speaker 2: Rainbow Lodge and he was on his famous Q and
[2:13] Speaker 2: a rant, you know, rand domestic violence with the politicians.
[2:17] Speaker 2: I didn't see it live, but somebody you know wraung
[2:20] Speaker 2: me or messaged me and said, I've just seen this
[2:22] Speaker 2: guy is really like you. You got to make contact
[2:25] Speaker 2: with him. And so, you know, I went to Linton
[2:29] Speaker 2: Bessel was the journalist doing and I said, oh, can
[2:32] Speaker 2: you know its Q and A, it's ABC. Can you
[2:34] Speaker 2: get me this guy's details? You know, apparently you know,
[2:36] Speaker 2: because I'd gone and I'd looked at it on AB,
[2:39] Speaker 2: so you know, I watched it and thought, I know
[2:40] Speaker 2: this is good. And they made contact with him and
[2:43] Speaker 2: then we met. I think we met up, yeah, and
[2:45] Speaker 2: we had he came to Rainbow. We had to chat
[2:47] Speaker 2: about things. I just think a lot of our and
[2:49] Speaker 2: it's funny, you know, my background in criminal prison, drug
[2:53] Speaker 2: addiction and he's in police and you wouldn't think you'd
[2:56] Speaker 2: have a lot of stuff that aligned, but it did,
[2:58] Speaker 2: like a lot of our ideas aligne. It was like
[3:01] Speaker 2: we're on the different side of the fence. But we
[3:02] Speaker 2: realized that the system didn't work for anyone, so a line.
[3:06] Speaker 2: So yeah, we just started talking and become friendly.
[3:08] Speaker 3: And I think it's a powerful, powerful pair that you
[3:14] Speaker 3: make to lunatics vice feel free if you want to
[3:18] Speaker 3: become a viral sensation again, I catch killers because I
[3:21] Speaker 3: know you go off, but it was very informed in
[3:24] Speaker 3: what you said.
[3:24] Speaker 1: It was controlled. But first of all I should welcome you.
[3:29] Speaker 4: Thanks for the acknowledgement. It's great to be.
[3:33] Speaker 1: Back, right, Okay, Well, now you've both been on I
[3:37] Speaker 1: Catch Killers before, but just so we're going to have
[3:39] Speaker 1: a serious discussion today and I think there's a lot
[3:42] Speaker 1: of experience here in the room talk about crime, how
[3:45] Speaker 1: we can stop crime. One of the problems in crime
[3:48] Speaker 1: that that type of thing. Your background, spent a lot
[3:52] Speaker 1: of time in prison. I think you've been shot, you've
[3:54] Speaker 1: been stabbed here, you've got a background. But since then
[3:58] Speaker 1: you've been out doing a lot of really good work
[4:00] Speaker 1: at Rainbow Lodge and the whole range of things. And
[4:03] Speaker 1: then with Vince, you were retired a detective superintendent from
[4:07] Speaker 1: the New South Wales Police without a criminal charge, unlike
[4:10] Speaker 1: someone else at the table. And now you've become an
[4:14] Speaker 1: academic and focusing on law. And do you want me
[4:19] Speaker 1: to refer to you as doctor.
[4:22] Speaker 5: And if I get paid like a doctor, but otherwise Vince, okay,
[4:26] Speaker 5: marrying in mind, we've.
[4:27] Speaker 4: Known each other for probably thirty years before.
[4:30] Speaker 1: Well, that's right, I remember the Vince running the detective's
[4:34] Speaker 1: course Claude, just tell us a bit about your background
[4:38] Speaker 1: so people got an understanding of where you come from.
[4:41] Speaker 3: Yeah.
[4:41] Speaker 2: So I actually I grew up in Melbourne, in big
[4:43] Speaker 2: Catholic family, and you know, for a lot of different reasons.
[4:47] Speaker 2: You know, I lived in a middle class area, but
[4:50] Speaker 2: grew up and went to school in a place called
[4:52] Speaker 2: the Pines, like a Mount Drew. What a tough area,
[4:55] Speaker 2: you know, a lot of drug use, of domestic violence,
[4:57] Speaker 2: a lot of broken families, all that sort of stuff.
[5:01] Speaker 2: You know. My house growing up wasn't super good, you know,
[5:04] Speaker 2: but I didn't think it was super bad because I
[5:06] Speaker 2: had lots of other kid who had much yeah reality,
[5:09] Speaker 2: so you know, but it affected me, you know, and
[5:12] Speaker 2: I started drinking and using drugs, you know, and I
[5:16] Speaker 2: ended up using you know, drugs, heroin, cocaine, whatever I
[5:19] Speaker 2: could get actually, you know, for over twenty years, you know,
[5:22] Speaker 2: and of course you know, I had to do crime
[5:25] Speaker 2: in the end to do that, so you know, and
[5:27] Speaker 2: that led me to prison, you know, and I think,
[5:30] Speaker 2: you know, until I came out of prison and finished
[5:33] Speaker 2: my last parole in like two thousand and eight, i'd
[5:35] Speaker 2: been in prison or run some sort of community order
[5:38] Speaker 2: or bond or parole for like twenty years in either
[5:40] Speaker 2: Victoria or New South Wales, you know. But I was lucky.
[5:45] Speaker 2: I did this program at Long Bay, you know, in
[5:47] Speaker 2: two thousand and seven, and you know, I thought, fuck,
[5:49] Speaker 2: I can't keep doing this? Is this is shit?
[5:52] Speaker 1: The way you're living here?
[5:53] Speaker 2: Yeah, it was shit, you know what I mean, Like
[5:55] Speaker 2: you know, and at that stage, by the time I'd
[5:57] Speaker 2: got out for seven weeks after three at five and
[6:00] Speaker 2: half years and blowing my whole inheritance at this story
[6:03] Speaker 2: at a hotel and the christ and I was back
[6:04] Speaker 2: in I was just broken. I was on one hundred
[6:06] Speaker 2: and fifty mills a method I'm taking serracle on top
[6:10] Speaker 2: and going, I don't want to do this. It was
[6:12] Speaker 2: so painful, you know what I mean. And you know,
[6:14] Speaker 2: when I first went to prison, I was shooting wires
[6:16] Speaker 2: over the fence and bringing drugs in and you know,
[6:18] Speaker 2: doing what you do. But by the end, I was
[6:20] Speaker 2: just defeated, you know, and I just thought, fuck, I
[6:23] Speaker 2: just need to do something different. I was like in
[6:25] Speaker 2: that program that you know, people there were some people
[6:29] Speaker 2: in a program that said, you know, there's a different way,
[6:31] Speaker 2: and I just finished with this and what they said
[6:34] Speaker 2: to me for the first time in my life, was
[6:37] Speaker 2: that I wasn't a bad person, but my behavior was unacceptable,
[6:41] Speaker 2: and no one had ever said that.
[6:42] Speaker 1: It's a big thing, is ye just take on words,
[6:45] Speaker 1: but gives you a clearer picture of what it's all about.
[6:48] Speaker 2: Because if you're bad, we can't help you. But because
[6:51] Speaker 2: it's your behavior and there's a reason, we can change that.
[6:55] Speaker 1: And well, your turn around has been remarkable and the
[6:59] Speaker 1: work that you do in the community, and it's humbling
[7:02] Speaker 1: seen how hard you work to make society a better place.
[7:06] Speaker 1: And I think the first time I saw you was
[7:09] Speaker 1: at Parliament House and every time I see you seem
[7:11] Speaker 1: to be having politicians hanging around you or whatever. You're
[7:15] Speaker 1: going to run for politics.
[7:17] Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, people have mentioned that to me. I'm not
[7:20] Speaker 2: sure my record. I'm sure the Daily Telegraph and probably
[7:24] Speaker 2: have a field day with my criminal history. But it's
[7:27] Speaker 2: all out there, you know, so it's not.
[7:29] Speaker 1: It's important to own the history what's brought you to
[7:33] Speaker 1: the point you are now, You've got to own the history.
[7:36] Speaker 2: One hundred percent, you know. And it's funny because I
[7:39] Speaker 2: know some of the things we'll speak today is about
[7:41] Speaker 2: domestic violence and you know, I was just at the
[7:44] Speaker 2: big No of Violence conference in Hobart about changing men's
[7:48] Speaker 2: behavior and that sort of stuff. And you know what
[7:51] Speaker 2: I say to people is you know this issue, and
[7:53] Speaker 2: they go, oh, violence is a choice, and you know,
[7:56] Speaker 2: you've got to worry about the victim. Like the reality is,
[7:58] Speaker 2: you know, I didn't realize the damage I caused to
[8:02] Speaker 2: the community and the people I loved to was probably
[8:04] Speaker 2: five years sober and clean to like connected with it
[8:07] Speaker 2: when you know, when when I started paying tax and
[8:09] Speaker 2: start having children and I thought, wow, I've cost my
[8:13] Speaker 2: community millions, like I damaged. You know, of course, the
[8:16] Speaker 2: first people you damage are all the people you love, all
[8:19] Speaker 2: the ones close to you, you know. But it took
[8:21] Speaker 2: that that wasn't a driving factor to change my life.
[8:25] Speaker 2: That came later on, and the longer I've you know,
[8:28] Speaker 2: stayed off drugs and been in recovery, the more I've
[8:31] Speaker 2: connected with, Wow, what a horrible way to live, and
[8:35] Speaker 2: what a horrible way for those around you to watch
[8:37] Speaker 2: you live.
[8:38] Speaker 1: The power of what you're doing is the fact that
[8:41] Speaker 1: you've walked that path to and I think that carried
[8:43] Speaker 1: carries a lot.
[8:44] Speaker 5: I think so I think it's really interesting when you're
[8:46] Speaker 5: talking about behavior and you're not a bad person, you
[8:50] Speaker 5: know from a hansom in the police, there was no distinction.
[8:56] Speaker 5: You were just fucking bad, you know, and you lock
[8:59] Speaker 5: them up in you a looked that.
[9:01] Speaker 1: Well, you didn't have time to. You didn't look at
[9:06] Speaker 1: that aspect of it. Just let people that the few
[9:09] Speaker 1: people out here that haven't listened to the Eye Catch
[9:12] Speaker 1: Killer episode with you on the Vince your background.
[9:15] Speaker 5: So, I was in the police for twenty nine years,
[9:20] Speaker 5: and as I mentioned it in the last time I
[9:23] Speaker 5: was here.
[9:23] Speaker 4: A couple of years ago, I left.
[9:27] Speaker 1: I'm not going to laugh. No, I'm not going to
[9:29] Speaker 1: sit here and laugh.
[9:30] Speaker 5: So that because I was pushed off a roof literally
[9:36] Speaker 5: they're literally a single story a two story building, and
[9:40] Speaker 5: got a fractured skull, fractured ribbed, three crush, vertebraema, spine fractured,
[9:45] Speaker 5: you left leg, just a real mess. And so I
[9:49] Speaker 5: was pensioned out as a result of that. I'm chasing
[9:52] Speaker 5: some badies for an assault rob But previously.
[9:56] Speaker 1: I just wanted to say here, Claude and I are laughing,
[9:58] Speaker 1: not the fact that some bad guys picked you up
[10:01] Speaker 1: and front of you off the roof. That's wrong, isn't it?
[10:03] Speaker 5: Then?
[10:03] Speaker 4: Anyone but I was.
[10:05] Speaker 5: I was in I was hostage negotiated for eight years,
[10:08] Speaker 5: worked in domestic ioland bestic violand policy reform for a
[10:10] Speaker 5: number of years when I was on some comment to
[10:12] Speaker 5: the new sup Department, Premier and Cabinet, which taught me
[10:15] Speaker 5: a lot about politics and the way it impacts on
[10:18] Speaker 5: individuals in society, especially on police. I was involved the
[10:22] Speaker 5: importation of cocaine for five years as an undercover operative.
[10:26] Speaker 5: And so what I was uniform at Mount George, Saint
[10:28] Speaker 5: Mary's Black can and Pendrift Detective Mount Jordan Penrith Detective's
[10:33] Speaker 5: course when I met you down in Golden just come
[10:34] Speaker 5: down an electure on the Detective's course and that's probably
[10:37] Speaker 5: about about it. Left in twenty ten, fell into job
[10:41] Speaker 5: accidentally in Macquarie Unions elector in Criminology and been there
[10:45] Speaker 5: ever since and love it.
[10:47] Speaker 1: Okay, so you've turned into an academic. Yeah, Well, seeing
[10:52] Speaker 1: we've got so much experience here, I'm going to ask
[10:54] Speaker 1: some broad questions. First up, and there's a program. I
[10:57] Speaker 1: think last time the three of us caught up you guys,
[11:00] Speaker 1: we're working on the project that we want to talk
[11:02] Speaker 1: about later on in a way of combating domestic violence
[11:06] Speaker 1: and just changing the narrative because there is so much
[11:10] Speaker 1: experience and we're all coming from sort of different different areas.
[11:15] Speaker 1: Just first up to you, claud what do you think
[11:18] Speaker 1: the biggest problem with crime at the moment is, Like
[11:21] Speaker 1: when you're looking at it and you're dealing with people
[11:23] Speaker 1: that are called up in the world of crime, what's
[11:26] Speaker 1: the one thing that you think is the biggest problem
[11:28] Speaker 1: that we as a society should be concerned about.
[11:31] Speaker 2: I think the internet technology is terrifying, so and we'll
[11:36] Speaker 2: get more to this in the domestic violence part, but
[11:39] Speaker 2: strangulation charges. You know, in the last five years at
[11:42] Speaker 2: Rainbow Lodger, you know, we'd be lucky to see one
[11:44] Speaker 2: year now multiple and young and young and we know,
[11:49] Speaker 2: and I've had this conversation with Tanya Plevasec, and we
[11:53] Speaker 2: know the influence pornography and the access to it for
[11:57] Speaker 2: really young people, and the propensity to watch and acted
[12:02] Speaker 2: out in intimate relationships. And we know that a lot
[12:07] Speaker 2: of women are reporting now much greater instances of strangulation,
[12:12] Speaker 2: you know, and it's a dangerous thing even to do
[12:15] Speaker 2: in a consenting relationship, like it's not a you shouldn't
[12:18] Speaker 2: be strangled. So I think that and technology, and I
[12:24] Speaker 2: think you'll probably speak about this more. I see with
[12:28] Speaker 2: especially the young guys getting caught up with some really
[12:31] Speaker 2: serious crime through WhatsApps and all that. You know, they're
[12:34] Speaker 2: getting board in to do contract killings. You know, they
[12:37] Speaker 2: don't even know the consequence of it, and that sort
[12:40] Speaker 2: of thing. So I really think technology has driven our
[12:44] Speaker 2: access to much greater risk without consequence, you know, because
[12:50] Speaker 2: I know some of the things and there before the courts.
[12:52] Speaker 2: I won't talk too much, but you know, people overseas
[12:56] Speaker 2: are making contact with young people here, and a lot
[12:58] Speaker 2: of them in the original communit. They know who they're targeting,
[13:01] Speaker 2: you know, with amounts of money that I wouldn't you know,
[13:05] Speaker 2: you know, life in prison is not worth forty grand,
[13:08] Speaker 2: but if you're a sixteen seventeen eighteen, that's a lot
[13:10] Speaker 2: of money.
[13:11] Speaker 4: If you've got nothing in the first place.
[13:12] Speaker 2: In housing, you know what I mean. And these people
[13:14] Speaker 2: they're targeting from overseas that could never have happened even
[13:17] Speaker 2: a decade ago. So I think that's really changed. And
[13:21] Speaker 2: you know, I think with the Louis Thureau, the Manisphere,
[13:24] Speaker 2: the tape brothers, all that sort of stuff, you know,
[13:27] Speaker 2: just overwhelming young boys and men about what it is
[13:31] Speaker 2: to be what they think it is to be a man.
[13:33] Speaker 2: But it's all about money. It's not about being a
[13:35] Speaker 2: man that takes and they're just making money.
[13:37] Speaker 5: Yeah.
[13:37] Speaker 2: Absolutely, But so I see that as a society we
[13:42] Speaker 2: have not caught up with the impact of technology on
[13:46] Speaker 2: crimes and what's driving crime and bringing people. You know,
[13:50] Speaker 2: those young guys from those communities wouldn't be murdering people
[13:54] Speaker 2: on a hit without that, you know what I mean.
[13:58] Speaker 2: So I don't know how it can on about it,
[14:00] Speaker 2: I do believe, And you know, this was part of
[14:03] Speaker 2: the theme that the note of violencing is the government
[14:06] Speaker 2: has to do much more. The government works for us,
[14:09] Speaker 2: and I think we rely on the government to bringing
[14:11] Speaker 2: some laws to stop and hold those tech companies account.
[14:15] Speaker 2: All there's like five men in the world rule what
[14:17] Speaker 2: we see watch, you know what I mean. Yeah, and
[14:21] Speaker 2: I do know this, and I've spoken to Tanya about this.
[14:23] Speaker 2: You know, the federal government has made it. You know,
[14:26] Speaker 2: people laugh at them with the bands on YouTube and
[14:29] Speaker 2: all that, but I'll tell you, if you look around
[14:32] Speaker 2: the world, it's got people talking about it we have
[14:34] Speaker 2: set the path forward.
[14:36] Speaker 1: Yeah, I see that other countries are following our lead.
[14:40] Speaker 2: And it's not going to be perfect. And at that conference,
[14:44] Speaker 2: you know, and what she said, you know, we always
[14:47] Speaker 2: want to get the perfect thing, and she's like, no, no,
[14:50] Speaker 2: we just need to start anywhere incremental change. You know
[14:53] Speaker 2: that we can't fix it it straight away, but we've
[14:55] Speaker 2: got to start somewhere.
[14:56] Speaker 1: And it's interesting that an open question like that, and
[15:00] Speaker 1: that's where you lean into. But I feel you're right,
[15:03] Speaker 1: it feels like we're tipping over into an area that
[15:06] Speaker 1: we're losing control.
[15:08] Speaker 2: Well, it's nothing that like, you know, when I speak
[15:11] Speaker 2: to young boys at school and all that, you know,
[15:13] Speaker 2: we're all of a similar age. But our access to
[15:18] Speaker 2: you know, sexuality and things was you know, Playboy at
[15:21] Speaker 2: the Worst a Penthouse magazine. You know. Now you know,
[15:25] Speaker 2: and again you know, I had this conversation with Tanya,
[15:28] Speaker 2: was you know, the kids today, you know they're watching
[15:32] Speaker 2: an anal sex strangulation before they've had their first kiss.
[15:35] Speaker 2: Like that has got to have a major impact, you know,
[15:39] Speaker 2: on the way they look at relationships, intimacy and what's normal.
[15:45] Speaker 2: It just has to be, you know, and there is
[15:48] Speaker 2: some research being done, and I think there was a case,
[15:51] Speaker 2: just one in America where they held YouTube. I think
[15:54] Speaker 2: it was YouTube accountable for addiction and stuff with their algorithms.
[15:58] Speaker 1: And yeah, one person I saw that. That's most recent.
[16:02] Speaker 1: What about you, Vince, crime, biggest, biggest problem mental health?
[16:07] Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, so I've read those one thy three hundred
[16:09] Speaker 5: and sixty two Coronal inquiry.
[16:11] Speaker 1: Oh that's what we talked about.
[16:12] Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, yeah, and actually looking at some others now,
[16:15] Speaker 5: but not in relation to violence against women and girls.
[16:19] Speaker 5: But I think mental health. You know, if you read
[16:22] Speaker 5: all those coronal inquiries, mental health is the underlying cause
[16:27] Speaker 5: of you know, all those homicides. And if you're adding
[16:31] Speaker 5: in that technology when they just go down those rabbit warrens,
[16:34] Speaker 5: how do you address that.
[16:36] Speaker 4: There's a there's a phenomena called a wicked problem.
[16:39] Speaker 5: But you know you're talking about when Grace said you
[16:44] Speaker 5: had to start somewhere. So if I gave anyone a
[16:47] Speaker 5: ball of string and said that is crime, or that
[16:50] Speaker 5: is violence against women, or that's crime on the Internet,
[16:54] Speaker 5: and I'd say, you unravel that ball of string. But
[16:56] Speaker 5: there is no beginning and there is no end. If
[16:59] Speaker 5: you pulled on a piece of string, it would not
[17:02] Speaker 5: somewhere else in that ball. So it's just like a
[17:04] Speaker 5: garden host it gets raveled up. So the wicked problem
[17:07] Speaker 5: is that there is no solution to the problem because
[17:09] Speaker 5: it is now in twenty twenty six, so complex, and
[17:13] Speaker 5: you're right that it doesn't matter where you start. You
[17:16] Speaker 5: just have to start somewhere to address a problem. There
[17:19] Speaker 5: is no order now to you know, to trying to
[17:23] Speaker 5: address violence against women or crime in society because it
[17:26] Speaker 5: is just or meshed. It's all just one big, massive
[17:29] Speaker 5: knotted ball. Where do you start?
[17:32] Speaker 1: And you'll put a label on it's mental health and
[17:34] Speaker 1: then what you spoke about Claude as well, they're not
[17:38] Speaker 1: exclusive to it all lends into the same thing.
[17:41] Speaker 2: Doesn't Rainbow Lodge one hundred percent of the man that
[17:43] Speaker 2: comes to Ramboy Lodge have mental health? Is it is
[17:48] Speaker 2: huge and you know, if you go out to MBRC,
[17:51] Speaker 2: you know, the bigger romand prison, a silver order, whole
[17:54] Speaker 2: sections are just for people with mental health. You know,
[17:59] Speaker 2: and I think I spoke this on the last on
[18:01] Speaker 2: on the podcast. You know, when the Richmond Report was
[18:04] Speaker 2: brought out and we deinstitutionalized mental health, that made us
[18:09] Speaker 2: feel good, but a lot of people those institutions were
[18:13] Speaker 2: closed and that was their home and their safety, and
[18:15] Speaker 2: all those people were put into the street and they
[18:17] Speaker 2: were supposed to have all this rapp around support and
[18:19] Speaker 2: that it was never fun, you know, and you see it.
[18:23] Speaker 2: And I know this because I've called the police many times.
[18:27] Speaker 2: They get the police can schedule people.
[18:29] Speaker 1: That's you'd remember the days of policing with the scheduling,
[18:35] Speaker 1: but you'd take people in invariably they'd come out quicker
[18:38] Speaker 1: than you've got out the paperwork. But mental health is
[18:42] Speaker 1: a problem for police, isn't it.
[18:44] Speaker 2: It is?
[18:44] Speaker 5: And it's you say that because over the last couple
[18:46] Speaker 5: of years the police have employed psychologists to actually be
[18:51] Speaker 5: in police stations, like they go and visit police stations
[18:54] Speaker 5: every day. Now that would have been unheard of ten
[18:57] Speaker 5: years ago because a it would have been in soft
[19:01] Speaker 5: But I can't even understand or fathom now, you know
[19:05] Speaker 5: that that shift that even the police sometimes I question,
[19:09] Speaker 5: And it's easy to sit back and romanticize about. You know,
[19:11] Speaker 5: they were good in our days and we were harder
[19:14] Speaker 5: or harder, but now you know, you think, I often wonder,
[19:18] Speaker 5: actually how many police who join have actually been in
[19:21] Speaker 5: a physical fight before they actually get into the police and.
[19:25] Speaker 4: Then go in and go, oh my god, I've got
[19:27] Speaker 4: to get into a fight.
[19:28] Speaker 5: But going back to the point, these psychologists are actually
[19:30] Speaker 5: in police stations now to try to you know, to
[19:33] Speaker 5: try and help police cope through you know, not pastematic stress,
[19:37] Speaker 5: but stressful situations.
[19:39] Speaker 2: Yeah, ye, my curious trauma. Like yeah, like it's horrific.
[19:42] Speaker 2: You can't And I know, like, you know, I think
[19:46] Speaker 2: I've had like, you know, thirty two of my clients die.
[19:49] Speaker 2: The amount of people I found dead in my work,
[19:51] Speaker 2: like it's not normal, Like you know, I know what
[19:54] Speaker 2: the smell of death is and you know, I know
[19:56] Speaker 2: what that's like. And you can't, like you know, it's
[19:59] Speaker 2: your job. Well, but you pay a price for that,
[20:02] Speaker 2: you know. So And I think I saw some data
[20:04] Speaker 2: and a long ago where I think the average now
[20:06] Speaker 2: for a new South Wales police office three and a
[20:08] Speaker 2: half years or something.
[20:09] Speaker 1: Well, I want to talk and I will ask later
[20:11] Speaker 1: on about what's happening with police because we're just not
[20:14] Speaker 1: getting the people joining the police at the moment and
[20:18] Speaker 1: we're terribly under resource in the policing. Getting back to okay,
[20:23] Speaker 1: we're looking at the problems and it is so complex.
[20:27] Speaker 1: Where do we start if we say we've got to
[20:29] Speaker 1: start to reduce crime starting with what Claude was talking about,
[20:33] Speaker 1: access to the internet and what people are seeing, and
[20:37] Speaker 1: it's just creating a world that's problematic.
[20:40] Speaker 5: Look, there's seems some research out to say that boys
[20:44] Speaker 5: form relationships around about thirteen fourteen year old group, either
[20:48] Speaker 5: with a mate or someone of the opposite sex. So
[20:51] Speaker 5: to my way thinking, that is where you start. Now
[20:53] Speaker 5: it's going to take your generation for any benefit. And
[20:56] Speaker 5: as we all know, governments are not going to invest
[20:59] Speaker 5: in anything past an election cycle.
[21:02] Speaker 2: We couldn't build the Snow River again. And that's really sad.
[21:05] Speaker 1: You know, I understand the concept because it seems what's
[21:08] Speaker 1: a quick fix to get me to the next election.
[21:11] Speaker 1: But that's how the politicians.
[21:14] Speaker 2: At Yeah, I think again from the conference that I
[21:18] Speaker 2: went to for the Note of Violence. It was and
[21:21] Speaker 2: these are academics, people much smarter than me, But my
[21:25] Speaker 2: thinking similar is and this was a consensus and I
[21:30] Speaker 2: we had like a working group and I got to
[21:32] Speaker 2: sit on a table with four really engaged, smart people
[21:36] Speaker 2: around this and they're saying, they're now talking that we
[21:39] Speaker 2: need to be engaging with boys, particular at five and
[21:42] Speaker 2: six about what's about pulling them up about what's acceptable
[21:47] Speaker 2: behavior because as we know, the internet this because if
[21:50] Speaker 2: you don't get them and that the bomb yea, you know.
[21:53] Speaker 2: And I was like, and I was like, wow, that's
[21:56] Speaker 2: you know I'm speaking to at Newington College. I go
[21:59] Speaker 2: and speak the year ten around what as you're talking.
[22:02] Speaker 2: But these experts are going their research are saying that's
[22:05] Speaker 2: the level. And of course we need to do it
[22:07] Speaker 2: in an age appropriate Yeah, but that's to have a chance,
[22:11] Speaker 2: because you've got to get to them before they're bombarded
[22:13] Speaker 2: with all that other stuff. Because again, like when we
[22:16] Speaker 2: were growing up, you know, our influencers were the people
[22:20] Speaker 2: in our circle, our family.
[22:22] Speaker 1: Well that's the thing. The role model was very contained,
[22:25] Speaker 1: wasn't it at that age. How many people did you see?
[22:28] Speaker 1: It was people that were in your immediate presence. Now
[22:31] Speaker 1: and when the kids have got access to yeah, we
[22:34] Speaker 1: got ahold of Playboy magazines or Penthouse magazines when you shouldn't.
[22:38] Speaker 1: I'm sure the kids are getting access to things and
[22:40] Speaker 1: looking on the Internet that they shouldn't be looking at.
[22:44] Speaker 1: But yeah, the world has changed and we've got to
[22:47] Speaker 1: make adjustments, and we're talking crime, not just making society
[22:51] Speaker 1: a better place? Was it you in the notes that
[22:54] Speaker 1: you sent to me, talked about we've got to teach
[22:57] Speaker 1: kids about rejection. And I was interested. I thought, where
[23:01] Speaker 1: are we coming from with that? My understanding was it
[23:04] Speaker 1: from what you were explaining? There was that right from
[23:08] Speaker 1: the start. Kids, You know, everyone's a winner. There's no
[23:12] Speaker 1: winners losers.
[23:13] Speaker 2: And score the sports because we don't want to upset anyone.
[23:15] Speaker 5: Yeah, everyone gets a trophy each week in the soccer.
[23:18] Speaker 1: How do you see that play out as problematic down
[23:21] Speaker 1: the track?
[23:24] Speaker 2: What I see and I put that in there because
[23:26] Speaker 2: when I go and speak to the young boys about it,
[23:29] Speaker 2: because what I see is, you know, when I was young,
[23:32] Speaker 2: you know, if you asked the girl out and she
[23:33] Speaker 2: said no, you made to slap you on the back
[23:35] Speaker 2: and go, oh, well, you know what I mean. Yeah, Now,
[23:39] Speaker 2: if that happens, there's this belief that it's her fault,
[23:43] Speaker 2: she's done something. So you get all your friends and
[23:45] Speaker 2: I speak to this when I talk at the schools.
[23:48] Speaker 2: So you get on WhatsApp and you start belitly putting
[23:51] Speaker 2: her down because she's rejected. And I go and I
[23:55] Speaker 2: speak to them, I go, I can guarantee you and
[23:57] Speaker 2: I've lived a pretty colorful life. We have, like we've
[24:01] Speaker 2: had experiences and saying things that other people don't, you
[24:04] Speaker 2: know what I mean, Like, you know, I take it
[24:06] Speaker 2: for I think everyone's seeing dead bodies and they you know,
[24:09] Speaker 2: like I'd have dinner with my mates and in the
[24:12] Speaker 2: end they don't talk about it because everyone's pale. Most
[24:15] Speaker 2: people go through life and will never see a dead body,
[24:19] Speaker 2: especially in a trauma, you know, someone that's died unexpectedly,
[24:23] Speaker 2: you know, and not from natural causes. That's that's not normal.
[24:26] Speaker 2: But I think that's normal. So I think with the
[24:29] Speaker 2: boys and the rejection, is it that? And I say
[24:32] Speaker 2: to them that life's full of rejections. You don't get
[24:34] Speaker 2: you don't get to be captain of the footy team.
[24:36] Speaker 2: You might make the team, you know, you might get
[24:39] Speaker 2: the top HSC results, get your license, the first you
[24:43] Speaker 2: might get you you might get that job, you know,
[24:45] Speaker 2: all those sort of things. And if if we can't
[24:48] Speaker 2: accept rejection, then how do we build resilience?
[24:51] Speaker 1: Haven't got that resilience.
[24:53] Speaker 2: And that's what I say, you know, and you know,
[24:55] Speaker 2: when the kids don't have sports and all that, and
[24:57] Speaker 2: you know, the argument is, oh, you know, but what
[25:00] Speaker 2: about little Johnny who isn't as good and all that?
[25:03] Speaker 2: And I going, well, we need to teach the guys
[25:05] Speaker 2: that are good. You got to bring little Johnny with you.
[25:07] Speaker 4: Yeah.
[25:07] Speaker 1: Yeah, that's what we're going.
[25:08] Speaker 2: It's not that he's not good enough. You know. I
[25:11] Speaker 2: love that that thing. You know, I'm big in ifl
[25:14] Speaker 2: You know that it's a team of champions always gets
[25:18] Speaker 2: beaten by a champion team. Yeah, yeah, you know what
[25:21] Speaker 2: I mean, Like, that's what That's what I like. And
[25:24] Speaker 2: I think that's what when we don't talk about rejection
[25:26] Speaker 2: and missing out on things, how do you get better?
[25:29] Speaker 1: And that that resience and if if we're jumping forward,
[25:33] Speaker 1: perhaps that adds to the way that Miles react. If
[25:38] Speaker 1: there's relationships failed or whatever. They haven't they haven't had
[25:42] Speaker 1: a set back in life.
[25:43] Speaker 2: They think there's something wrong with them. And I say
[25:45] Speaker 2: to the boys, I go, you know, if you ask
[25:47] Speaker 2: a girl out and she doesn't want to go out
[25:49] Speaker 2: with you, there could be a myriad of why you
[25:53] Speaker 2: don't connect. That's just because someone doesn't want to go out.
[25:56] Speaker 2: It doesn't mean there's something wrong with you. You know, It's funny.
[25:59] Speaker 2: I had one of my staff resigned the other week
[26:04] Speaker 2: and we'd had some conversation. He was really struggling, you
[26:07] Speaker 2: know with the work we're do in you know, he
[26:09] Speaker 2: came from this really good place, you know. And I
[26:11] Speaker 2: said to him in this conversation, I said to him,
[26:14] Speaker 2: just because this hasn't worked out, doesn't mean there's something
[26:17] Speaker 2: wrong with you, you know what I mean, Like we're not
[26:20] Speaker 2: all suited for different situations, but you know, and he
[26:24] Speaker 2: sent me this email a couple of days ago saying, Hey,
[26:26] Speaker 2: you know, thank you. I've really I've learned stuff I'm
[26:29] Speaker 2: going to take with you in the rest of my life.
[26:31] Speaker 2: And I think that's what we've lost as a society
[26:34] Speaker 2: because I hold that dearly that I have a responsibility
[26:38] Speaker 2: to the other people that are in my circle to
[26:41] Speaker 2: pass on my knowledge, you know. And the other thing
[26:43] Speaker 2: is I say, is I'll steal anyone's idea, you know
[26:46] Speaker 2: what I mean, Like, I know I don't know everything
[26:49] Speaker 2: that's I'm listening because you know that's how I got
[26:51] Speaker 2: onto Vince. You know, when he talked about some stuff
[26:54] Speaker 2: we'll talk about later, I was like, Wow, that's you know,
[26:57] Speaker 2: you've got to have all those different perspects.
[26:58] Speaker 1: Interesting, Like we started talking about crime, but we're talking
[27:02] Speaker 1: a problem in society, really, isn't it. And that's I
[27:06] Speaker 1: think smart police realize you can't arrest your way out
[27:09] Speaker 1: of it, like if there's a problem with a crime,
[27:12] Speaker 1: so and also the way that police approach it. And
[27:15] Speaker 1: I think sometimes politicians I don't like it when there's
[27:19] Speaker 1: a problem, so let's change the legislation. Sometimes the legislation
[27:22] Speaker 1: needs to be changed. But invariably it's a knee jerk
[27:25] Speaker 1: reaction to support the vocal minority on something that's gone on. Vince,
[27:32] Speaker 1: we're talking fighting fighting crime here or reducing crime, preventing crime.
[27:37] Speaker 1: What Claude's talking about is issues with society. Do you
[27:40] Speaker 1: support that line of thinking? Absolutely, problems stem from But
[27:44] Speaker 1: when you're just talking about more laws.
[27:46] Speaker 5: So I have a theory We're just not backed up
[27:50] Speaker 5: with any academicas and I've never mentioned it to anyone
[27:54] Speaker 5: other than U three and everyone listening now.
[27:56] Speaker 4: But now all the laws that they introduce around around
[28:00] Speaker 4: you know, hate speech, and look, some of it's really valid.
[28:03] Speaker 5: I'm not arguing that, but sometimes I think the more laws,
[28:06] Speaker 5: as we know, it's not better law. But I think
[28:08] Speaker 5: sometimes the introduction of more laws is having more laws
[28:13] Speaker 5: is trying to keep the harmony or community or social
[28:16] Speaker 5: cohesion together because everyone is becoming more fractured free speech
[28:23] Speaker 5: because of all the different internet, the crimes on the Internet.
[28:27] Speaker 5: So having more laws, you know, are the politicians trying
[28:31] Speaker 5: to keep society together by having a more structured laws
[28:35] Speaker 5: or society with these laws as opposed to well off,
[28:38] Speaker 5: you go, we won't have a law about X Y
[28:40] Speaker 5: and said, does that make sense?
[28:42] Speaker 1: Yeah, I like the laws to keep the structure because society.
[28:46] Speaker 1: I get a sense society at the moment. You see
[28:49] Speaker 1: it in Sydney, and this is a Sydney that I
[28:52] Speaker 1: don't remember from you years gone by, but protests every weekend, Yeah,
[28:56] Speaker 1: in the city. And I'm not taking sides on reasons
[28:59] Speaker 1: people of protesting or whatever, but there seems to be
[29:02] Speaker 1: an anger, anger from all sides. So the right wing
[29:05] Speaker 1: is protesting about something left wing, well we're going to
[29:08] Speaker 1: raise it. So it just seems to be escalating. Society
[29:12] Speaker 1: seems to and police are often caught in the middle
[29:15] Speaker 1: of that. They've got to enforce the laws, and.
[29:17] Speaker 5: They actually say and that goes back to claud to
[29:18] Speaker 5: point earlier about rejection. So those people who have a protest,
[29:23] Speaker 5: you know, they wedded to an idea. They're not even
[29:25] Speaker 5: willing to consider another point of view.
[29:28] Speaker 2: They don't have to have a theory on that. And
[29:31] Speaker 2: I just find this infuriating. We get sold this idea
[29:37] Speaker 2: that if I give Garia right, I have to lose
[29:39] Speaker 2: one of mine, and that's a felt it's not true. Yeah,
[29:42] Speaker 2: but that's this. This is you're right. The internet and
[29:45] Speaker 2: all that says, oh, you know, if you give a
[29:48] Speaker 2: trans person a right, that means that men's rights. Bullshit. Yeah,
[29:52] Speaker 2: Like if you look at history, you know, none of
[29:55] Speaker 2: us had a vote once. Now women didn't have a
[29:57] Speaker 2: vote like we've as we've become more educated and hopefully
[30:02] Speaker 2: which I think has gone backwards a bit lately. But
[30:04] Speaker 2: we were on this trajectory. You're becoming a kind of
[30:08] Speaker 2: society and more accepting society. We've given lots of people
[30:12] Speaker 2: more rights as we have understood. Oh that's okay, we've
[30:14] Speaker 2: never you don't lose one. But those that want to
[30:17] Speaker 2: sow drama whether and it's right and left say, you know,
[30:21] Speaker 2: if you give them a right, you're going to lose this.
[30:23] Speaker 2: And I think that's a big thing in this manisphere thing.
[30:25] Speaker 2: You know, women do this. We're losing and it's a lie,
[30:29] Speaker 2: it's all bullshit. But you're getting sold that constantly with
[30:33] Speaker 2: the and the other thing in the text the algorithms. Well,
[30:36] Speaker 2: it's crazy how quick you are you whacking Tait into
[30:40] Speaker 2: your search and you've been bombarded like everything changes instantly, and.
[30:45] Speaker 1: That is to me, that's the scary part breaking it down.
[30:48] Speaker 1: Like when we were growing up in a community, if
[30:51] Speaker 1: someone had a wacky idea or whatever, they'd be sort
[30:55] Speaker 1: of on their own, and people had listened to Vince's
[30:57] Speaker 1: idea and we'd sort that you wouldn't get supported. Now
[31:00] Speaker 1: on the Internet, any idea you come up with, you're
[31:03] Speaker 1: being to find supporters there that validate your ideas, and
[31:07] Speaker 1: you can. And there's less communication because people are not
[31:10] Speaker 1: out talking and socializing as much. So you just go
[31:15] Speaker 1: down this rabbit hole that reinforces your ideologies or whatever
[31:18] Speaker 1: your beliefs.
[31:19] Speaker 4: So it's one way communication.
[31:21] Speaker 5: Yeah, you tap into the Tape Brothers for example, Yeah,
[31:24] Speaker 5: you don't get a response back from them.
[31:25] Speaker 4: It's just one way traffic. You're just absorbing their ship.
[31:28] Speaker 2: And politics have driven it, you know, I think we've
[31:31] Speaker 2: seen in you know, I'm sure he's going to come
[31:33] Speaker 2: up some time, but since Donald Trump come in like
[31:36] Speaker 2: ten years ago, we've seen I actually had this conversation
[31:40] Speaker 2: with the next Prime Minister when I've had dinner with
[31:42] Speaker 2: an next primary John Howard, God have you Yeah, yeah,
[31:47] Speaker 2: really yeah, yeah I did. I was trying to get
[31:50] Speaker 2: some money off him and his mates things. But it
[31:53] Speaker 2: was interesting talking to him because we were talking about
[31:58] Speaker 2: the change in politics around. You know, our system is
[32:03] Speaker 2: the Westminster system. Whoever gets in power, you then govern
[32:07] Speaker 2: all Australians and it's about compromise between the two parties
[32:10] Speaker 2: or the parties in polim that's how you pass legislation.
[32:13] Speaker 2: And he said, now we've gone to this American idea
[32:16] Speaker 2: that if you don't come up with it as shit,
[32:18] Speaker 2: it's wrong. And whether we like that or not, the
[32:22] Speaker 2: politicians and the behavior of those like you know, the
[32:25] Speaker 2: President of the United States is caught on camera saying
[32:28] Speaker 2: he's going to grab a woman on the pussy and
[32:30] Speaker 2: can get Yeah, I'm sorry you're telling you and that
[32:33] Speaker 2: is okay. And this is what we've said, you know,
[32:36] Speaker 2: this is what I say. And there's a research around
[32:39] Speaker 2: this that you know that over the last decade we've
[32:42] Speaker 2: seen this thing about just what's acceptable, and that if
[32:46] Speaker 2: you don't come up with the idea, it's got to
[32:48] Speaker 2: be crap, you know. And I think at the moment
[32:51] Speaker 2: in America, you know the TSA, their airports are closed down,
[32:55] Speaker 2: and you know in the Senate the Republicans and the
[32:57] Speaker 2: Democrats got a compromise. I went to the Congress and
[33:02] Speaker 2: bomb Art. Trump doesn't want it because he doesn't he
[33:04] Speaker 2: wants chaos.
[33:05] Speaker 1: Well, just on that. In a smaller sphere, looking at
[33:09] Speaker 1: our local news or the Sydney News, you see a
[33:12] Speaker 1: politician in government take a stand and in invariably the
[33:16] Speaker 1: next clip is to the opposition saying completely the opposite
[33:19] Speaker 1: or attacking attacking the stand. They're not working together. One
[33:22] Speaker 1: thing that concerns me that I see and I use
[33:26] Speaker 1: the e bio saying because that seems to be the
[33:28] Speaker 1: focus on the media.
[33:29] Speaker 5: But you see the comments about well too, so Gary,
[33:34] Speaker 5: this is not about you anymore, it's about cordinite take.
[33:38] Speaker 1: Yeah, no, but you've seen it and it's worrying. It's
[33:41] Speaker 1: a worrying trend. And then you can see how that's
[33:43] Speaker 1: going to end in tears. That's my take on it,
[33:47] Speaker 1: not just the danger factor, but this mob mentality where
[33:52] Speaker 1: they're just writing impacts and this is going to lead
[33:55] Speaker 1: to just storming into buildings and doing robberies.
[33:58] Speaker 4: And well, funny you should say that.
[34:00] Speaker 5: Yeah, one of the bloke that we know who's still
[34:03] Speaker 5: in the police is in charge of and it won't
[34:05] Speaker 5: be specific, I'll just say generally in an organized crime squad.
[34:09] Speaker 5: And they're using e bikes now for trafficking drugs around Sydney,
[34:13] Speaker 5: for doing drive by shootings, for doing breaking.
[34:17] Speaker 2: Enters because they're generic.
[34:20] Speaker 4: Yeah, they're not registered, they're raw black. You have to
[34:23] Speaker 4: wear a helmet. The helmet.
[34:24] Speaker 5: They're not wearing helmet because they want to look after
[34:26] Speaker 5: their safety. They're wearing a helmet for a disguise. So
[34:29] Speaker 5: any CCTV that's in any local area and nowing up
[34:33] Speaker 5: to sixty kilometers an hour and they convade the police.
[34:37] Speaker 5: So now there is a trend which is largely unknown
[34:40] Speaker 5: to most members of the public of organized crime Syney.
[34:44] Speaker 5: It's using e bikes for these things.
[34:46] Speaker 1: Well, just the fact that they're using and it mightn't
[34:50] Speaker 1: even be the kids using the e bikes. But what
[34:53] Speaker 1: we talked on very early was about how outsourcing the
[34:57] Speaker 1: criminal games are outsourcing to people, and we talked prior
[35:03] Speaker 1: to recording. We're talking about the abduction of the eighty
[35:06] Speaker 1: year old old man that the resulted in his death.
[35:11] Speaker 1: Of recent times they've abducted the wrong person. When you've
[35:16] Speaker 1: got the wrong person kidnapping for ransom, the obvious thing is, well,
[35:20] Speaker 1: let that person go, but they haven't. The person has
[35:23] Speaker 1: died whilst after being kidnapped. To me, that sent out
[35:28] Speaker 1: a lot of concerns, but it's just I think it's
[35:31] Speaker 1: synonymous with the fact that now crime is not people
[35:36] Speaker 1: are the cops of the pendulum has swung. Cops have
[35:40] Speaker 1: got big advantages in tracking down people responsible, so the
[35:43] Speaker 1: people involved in the crime are outsourcing, and outsourcing has
[35:47] Speaker 1: been passed down and that's going to lead to further
[35:49] Speaker 1: and further problems and big sentences for people that have
[35:52] Speaker 1: just been caught up in young stupid don't know the
[35:58] Speaker 1: consequences of their actions.
[36:00] Speaker 2: And I think it comes back to the question you
[36:03] Speaker 2: asked before earlier about what drives crime, and I think
[36:08] Speaker 2: this links in with the politics of the time. Is
[36:11] Speaker 2: the disparity between the rich and the poorest grant, so
[36:14] Speaker 2: those young kids, you know, and scarily a disproportionate that
[36:18] Speaker 2: those young kids who are getting the Aboriginal feel that
[36:22] Speaker 2: their only way out of that is to take that money,
[36:25] Speaker 2: that thirty or forty thousand dollars, not looking that potentially
[36:29] Speaker 2: some of those charges of life imprisonment.
[36:32] Speaker 5: I mean that money obviously is attractive. And I won't
[36:36] Speaker 5: mention his name because I'll hand it over to you
[36:38] Speaker 5: in a minute if you think it's appropriate to mention.
[36:40] Speaker 2: Isn't.
[36:40] Speaker 1: But that.
[36:43] Speaker 5: Boy boy, the man that we spoke to at Rainbow Lodge,
[36:47] Speaker 5: who now works for you, he talks to some of
[36:52] Speaker 5: my students occasionally when the opportunity arises, and he made
[36:56] Speaker 5: a really good point last year that he had never
[37:00] Speaker 5: had money his entire life, Like he was forty years age,
[37:03] Speaker 5: lived scraped just to had money, and then when he
[37:06] Speaker 5: got into crime, all of a sudden, he had all
[37:08] Speaker 5: this money. And I thought for myself for the first time, YEP,
[37:11] Speaker 5: I can totally understand when you get all this money,
[37:14] Speaker 5: and we're talking hundreds of thousands of dollars, why you
[37:17] Speaker 5: would why you would just go berserk and spend it
[37:20] Speaker 5: and do drugs and just party. The whole time because
[37:24] Speaker 5: for someone like me who grew up in a middle
[37:26] Speaker 5: class family, you know, I always have money.
[37:29] Speaker 4: I've got pocket money.
[37:30] Speaker 5: With this poor poor kid, we're not kidd and this
[37:33] Speaker 5: man now never had money, and I thought, never crossed
[37:36] Speaker 5: my mind.
[37:37] Speaker 2: We can name in Lincoln. He'll be all right because
[37:40] Speaker 2: he's just actually lodged his story to the Parliament as
[37:43] Speaker 2: part of the Raisy age has.
[37:45] Speaker 3: Yeah.
[37:45] Speaker 2: Yeah, he wrote his story to go to Parliament to
[37:48] Speaker 2: get the laws changed from a ten year old. And
[37:50] Speaker 2: if you read his story, the same as I say,
[37:53] Speaker 2: all the guys through Rainbow, you know, let down as children, yeah,
[38:00] Speaker 2: you know, because we don't have a choice as children,
[38:02] Speaker 2: family into It was funny when when we were filming
[38:05] Speaker 2: the Four Corners thing, you know, Linton Besso, who was
[38:09] Speaker 2: the journalist who did it, he went and sat in
[38:11] Speaker 2: on our Aboriginal men's program. He'll in the Warrior. You know,
[38:16] Speaker 2: I remember him comeback and in his backgrounds Jewish. You know,
[38:21] Speaker 2: I think his grandparents Holocaust of really not a he's
[38:25] Speaker 2: got a history of generational trauma and all. You know
[38:28] Speaker 2: what I mean. But he's you know, after he said,
[38:30] Speaker 2: you know, wow, it's just luck of the draw where
[38:32] Speaker 2: you're born.
[38:33] Speaker 4: Yeah, no one.
[38:34] Speaker 2: You know what I mean, because he sat in this
[38:35] Speaker 2: room for these Aboriginal guys, you know. And one of
[38:38] Speaker 2: the things about colonization intergenerational trauma that we you know,
[38:41] Speaker 2: Ivan who runs it, teaches them in that is, you know,
[38:43] Speaker 2: before you were born, there's a B and C against you.
[38:47] Speaker 2: You're not even thought of, and there's already these things
[38:50] Speaker 2: you know in front of you. But we know that
[38:53] Speaker 2: doesn't matter where you come from, all the barriers and
[38:55] Speaker 2: all that. And I know that from my personal thing.
[38:57] Speaker 2: At the end of the day, change only comes from
[38:58] Speaker 2: personal responsibility. But if you're grown up in a middle
[39:02] Speaker 2: class family and with resources, you're taught that you're giving
[39:06] Speaker 2: you you get five dollars and it's got a last
[39:08] Speaker 2: year for the week that ship pokemoney if you're growing
[39:11] Speaker 2: up in a house. And I'll tell this story because
[39:13] Speaker 2: it was really permanent to me. This Aboriginal guy that
[39:17] Speaker 2: I known, he thought his family was pretty good and
[39:19] Speaker 2: you know, he didn't have big car crash or someone
[39:22] Speaker 2: dying for trauma, you know, And he was sitting in
[39:25] Speaker 2: this men's group and he told me story. I won't
[39:27] Speaker 2: name my ring, and you know they come around him,
[39:30] Speaker 2: and he said, oh, the worst thing that happened to
[39:31] Speaker 2: me was I went to school without lunch and Ivan,
[39:35] Speaker 2: who was running, and just stopped and he said, man,
[39:36] Speaker 2: that's the worst tram.
[39:37] Speaker 4: Yeah, but you're a kid.
[39:39] Speaker 2: You can't do it like you're And then the next
[39:41] Speaker 2: five guys in the group said, oh, I went to
[39:45] Speaker 2: you know what I mean, And I know this from
[39:47] Speaker 2: my own story because all the families around me I
[39:50] Speaker 2: thought were much worse than mine. It wasn't until I
[39:53] Speaker 2: went into therapy and all that and talked about my
[39:56] Speaker 2: growing up and then when that's not okay, and I
[39:59] Speaker 2: went really because I just go, well, that's worse over there,
[40:02] Speaker 2: and you know when it's it's normal. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
[40:05] Speaker 2: exactly how it is. And I remember going to my
[40:08] Speaker 2: mate's house on a Sunday morning. The door had being
[40:10] Speaker 2: kicked off, these blood, these food everywhere, and I just
[40:13] Speaker 2: go in and grabbed him. We're going to kick the
[40:14] Speaker 2: footy because it's not in my house, not my business.
[40:17] Speaker 1: Yeah, you know what I mean.
[40:19] Speaker 2: And I think about that now and I go like,
[40:21] Speaker 2: we like, we didn't even know the impact that was
[40:24] Speaker 2: having on us, the normalization of it.
[40:27] Speaker 1: Hey, guys, it's Gary jubilin here. Want they get more
[40:30] Speaker 1: out of I Catch Killers, then you should head over
[40:33] Speaker 1: to our new video feed on Spotify where you can
[40:36] Speaker 1: watch every episode of I Catch Killers. Just search for
[40:40] Speaker 1: I Catch Killers video in your Spotify app and start
[40:43] Speaker 1: watching Today. You're looking at the cause and effect, like
[40:48] Speaker 1: the environment that people grow up in but with and
[40:51] Speaker 1: I don't think it's just unique to Queensland. But you
[40:55] Speaker 1: hear a lot of youth crime. We've got the New
[40:57] Speaker 1: South Wales across the country. How do you fight that?
[41:01] Speaker 1: Because I hear we're going to get get tougher adult crime,
[41:06] Speaker 1: adult adult sense.
[41:08] Speaker 5: I just last week I went to the Australian Bureau
[41:12] Speaker 5: Statistics and looked at youth crime in Australia for ten years,
[41:15] Speaker 5: and it is it has been going down for more
[41:19] Speaker 5: than ten years.
[41:19] Speaker 4: It's half right, and that is a fact.
[41:22] Speaker 5: Like it's independent research, not from Vince early Australian bureau Crimes.
[41:27] Speaker 5: So the Australian Yeah, Australian bureau Statistics. And it's half
[41:32] Speaker 5: Yet these fucking politicians come on.
[41:35] Speaker 2: But visible and back to the technology the kids, you know,
[41:40] Speaker 2: I think one of.
[41:41] Speaker 6: The look I'm not saying I'm not excusing We'll just
[41:44] Speaker 6: break that down, not excusing them, because if you looking
[41:48] Speaker 6: from what we're being fed, from the information from the
[41:50] Speaker 6: media to talk from the politicians, you would say youth
[41:53] Speaker 6: crimes out of control.
[41:55] Speaker 1: Yes, But you, as the academic you have now become,
[41:58] Speaker 1: have decided to do some recent search on Bobbitt and
[42:01] Speaker 1: you've gone to.
[42:02] Speaker 4: Yeah, it's legit.
[42:03] Speaker 5: It's come down as halved in the last at least
[42:05] Speaker 5: in the last ten years. What happens is that And I
[42:08] Speaker 5: hate bringing academia into this.
[42:10] Speaker 1: You can't help, but we know you're a doctor. Doctor.
[42:13] Speaker 5: There's a thing, a theory called moral panic and it
[42:16] Speaker 5: came up in the nineteen sixties when over in England
[42:19] Speaker 5: there were groups of called the Mods and the Rockers.
[42:21] Speaker 5: And the Mods were blokes driving around and on scooters,
[42:25] Speaker 5: motorbikes with clean cart you know, wearing tires, cardigans, all
[42:28] Speaker 5: the type of stereotop. Then the Rockers came along, filled
[42:32] Speaker 5: with letters, leather gear, you know, black leather gear riding
[42:35] Speaker 5: these bikes. And there was a study by name of
[42:38] Speaker 5: Stanley Cohen and he couldn't work out why there was
[42:42] Speaker 5: this panic amongst the community about the rockets. These mergings
[42:46] Speaker 5: of what seemed to be these outlaw individuals, and he
[42:49] Speaker 5: came up with this theory called moral panic. And moral
[42:51] Speaker 5: panic says that the media take an image or something's
[42:55] Speaker 5: happening in society and they break it down to really
[42:57] Speaker 5: simplistic views and sell it to the media. Pauline Hanson
[43:02] Speaker 5: is a great example of moral panic when she walks
[43:05] Speaker 5: into Parliament with that burker on. So it's a simple
[43:09] Speaker 5: way of just looking the media focus on a specific
[43:13] Speaker 5: issue like youth crime and create this notion that it's
[43:18] Speaker 5: out of control. Now I'm not saying as a former
[43:20] Speaker 5: police officer, they've done it and fucking deserve to be
[43:22] Speaker 5: put arrested. But if you look at the data, youth
[43:25] Speaker 5: crime has, as I said earlier, has half dramatically.
[43:29] Speaker 4: So again it guess goes back to this notion of
[43:31] Speaker 4: moral panny.
[43:32] Speaker 5: Hypothetically, I'm going to say, because we're on a podcast,
[43:35] Speaker 5: Hypothetically I might not have ever, I might not have
[43:38] Speaker 5: locked my house for seven years. First of all, there's
[43:40] Speaker 5: nothing to steal because everything of value to me is
[43:42] Speaker 5: up in the cloud, pictures, documents, so there's nothing to steal.
[43:46] Speaker 4: But people fear crime.
[43:48] Speaker 5: More than what it is so if a woman was
[43:51] Speaker 5: walking down the street, would you walked down a dark
[43:53] Speaker 5: allio at night? Probably not, because she would fear that
[43:56] Speaker 5: something would happen to us. But the reality is that crime,
[44:00] Speaker 5: as we all know, the three of us, as crimes
[44:01] Speaker 5: come down in Australia, you know, consistently for the lead
[44:05] Speaker 5: the last at least the last fifteen years. So we
[44:08] Speaker 5: fear crime more than actually what is occurring on the
[44:11] Speaker 5: street because, as Claude rightly says, is really visual in our.
[44:16] Speaker 1: And that's interesting you say that because if imagine if
[44:19] Speaker 1: a politician got up and said that I don't worry
[44:22] Speaker 1: about the crime, it's not out of control, he gets
[44:24] Speaker 1: shouted down and she would get showered down and probably
[44:28] Speaker 1: lose there, lose the next election. As an academic, you
[44:32] Speaker 1: can look at it objectively and go, okay, well crime
[44:36] Speaker 1: is not rising like we all all fear. Okay, who's
[44:40] Speaker 1: responsible for that? Then? Is it the media? Is it
[44:43] Speaker 1: the politicians? How do we Why is the fear of
[44:45] Speaker 1: crime greater than the actual.
[44:47] Speaker 2: Well, I think media has become entertainment and not news,
[44:50] Speaker 2: you know, and I think a classic example that was Fox,
[44:53] Speaker 2: you know, when they got sued over the election stuff
[44:55] Speaker 2: and all that. They turned up the court and said, well,
[44:57] Speaker 2: we're not a news service actually for an entertainment service.
[45:00] Speaker 2: And I think that has changed, you know, like I
[45:03] Speaker 2: was funny, I was again, you know, I was speaking
[45:05] Speaker 2: when we're doing four corners, and you know, I remember
[45:08] Speaker 2: growing up, you guys would have The Today Show on
[45:12] Speaker 2: Channel nine was a premium news show. Steve Leberman, like
[45:16] Speaker 2: these were journal even Karl Stefanovic when he started was
[45:20] Speaker 2: a good journalist.
[45:21] Speaker 4: And now it's entertainment.
[45:23] Speaker 2: It's just rubbish. You know. They're more worried about infomercials
[45:26] Speaker 2: and all that sort of stuff. And Tracy Grimshaw was
[45:30] Speaker 2: and then she ended up on a Current Affairs just rubbish,
[45:33] Speaker 2: you know again, cameras outside method and clinics or you know,
[45:36] Speaker 2: it's all entertainment instead of actually telling a story or informing.
[45:42] Speaker 2: News was about informing us, and we know that it's
[45:45] Speaker 2: an integral part of democracy because we get to make
[45:48] Speaker 2: a choice, so we need to have different views.
[45:51] Speaker 1: Do you do you think it's shifting there, like the
[45:53] Speaker 1: shock job era I think is starting to diminish.
[45:57] Speaker 4: That's a good point.
[45:58] Speaker 1: And also, like you say, the Today Show or Current
[46:02] Speaker 1: Affair or any of the morning shows, that that's where
[46:04] Speaker 1: people got their information. But I see the world changing
[46:08] Speaker 1: now with podcasts. That a good point, Like if this
[46:12] Speaker 1: was if we're on the Today Show, you'd walk in
[46:14] Speaker 1: and you'd have two minutes to make your point. Yeah
[46:18] Speaker 1: you know what I'm saying. Yeah, here we've got a
[46:20] Speaker 1: long form conversation. There's no gotcha moment, So we're just
[46:23] Speaker 1: talking about.
[46:24] Speaker 4: The era of the Allen Jones as.
[46:25] Speaker 5: You're right, it's gone because it's now more fractured, or
[46:28] Speaker 5: there's more players, there's more social media. I was talking
[46:31] Speaker 5: to Holly, Yeah yeah, And I said, talking to Holly,
[46:35] Speaker 5: who helps you on the program? I said, what do
[46:37] Speaker 5: you do? She said, journalism? I said, how long you've
[46:38] Speaker 5: been in podcasts? He said, in podcasts?
[46:40] Speaker 4: Most of my life Now.
[46:42] Speaker 5: For someone who is old like me, as I said
[46:43] Speaker 5: to her at the time, podcasts are just just.
[46:47] Speaker 4: Brand new, like a brain new.
[46:48] Speaker 5: Well, the first podcast I went on was yours, and
[46:51] Speaker 5: this is only the second one I've been on.
[46:54] Speaker 1: I'm lucky to get you. You're clearly in demand.
[46:57] Speaker 2: Yeah, Nobo, it is that thing, you know, and we're
[47:00] Speaker 2: read the news. You'd buy the newspaper, you know, and
[47:03] Speaker 2: your leanings would determine whether you bought the Age or
[47:07] Speaker 2: the Herod Sun or the Telegram, you know what I mean.
[47:11] Speaker 2: And you would read that and it would And I
[47:12] Speaker 2: think that's the other thing. The information we were getting
[47:15] Speaker 2: wasn't so instantaneous that it is now like it was
[47:18] Speaker 2: before it was filtered, true people before we go even
[47:22] Speaker 2: whether it was on TV or journal it was you know, journalists,
[47:25] Speaker 2: they had someone had to actually make a decision to
[47:27] Speaker 2: send someone out to speak to someone or film it.
[47:30] Speaker 2: Now you and I walk down the street where we
[47:32] Speaker 2: see a crime born where it's on you sometimes we
[47:35] Speaker 2: could live stream it without even knowing the context. So
[47:38] Speaker 2: we've lost all that filter as a I think, as
[47:42] Speaker 2: a society in the community, and I know that's why
[47:44] Speaker 2: they wanted to start Facebook and all those things. And
[47:47] Speaker 2: I think the concept of it is good because you're
[47:50] Speaker 2: able to do this so it gives more people a voice,
[47:54] Speaker 2: But that means more more crazy people and more people
[47:58] Speaker 2: with radical or not society's best interest at heart, it's
[48:04] Speaker 2: about making money, you know, as soon as people so
[48:07] Speaker 2: they could make money from it. That's what the Tay Brothers.
[48:10] Speaker 2: I say to these kids I speak to they couldn't
[48:12] Speaker 2: give too shit about it, give a fuck about it
[48:15] Speaker 2: if they weren't making money. And this is why I
[48:17] Speaker 2: think government needs to regulate it more, because only make
[48:19] Speaker 2: money because advertisers pay to go on it. And I
[48:22] Speaker 2: said to that at this conference that I was at,
[48:24] Speaker 2: was we need to target the advertisers and say don't
[48:28] Speaker 2: buy their products because they help him perpetuate male.
[48:31] Speaker 1: Violence, reducing the crime and the crime. And we've talked
[48:35] Speaker 1: and we've swung from one side to another on things
[48:39] Speaker 1: that create crime, the perception of crime, all sorts of things.
[48:42] Speaker 1: I want to bring it back to the resilience that
[48:44] Speaker 1: we're talking about, because I think when people fall into
[48:47] Speaker 1: a life of crime, whether they've got a tough, tough
[48:50] Speaker 1: start or whatever, they haven't got that resilience. And what
[48:53] Speaker 1: we're seeing with young people getting caught up in the
[48:56] Speaker 1: crime that they don't fully appreciate what they're going to do.
[48:59] Speaker 1: And I don't think I articulated myself very well when
[49:02] Speaker 1: I said what worries me about them outsourcing? Before there
[49:06] Speaker 1: was levels of crime that you stepped into, I'd see
[49:09] Speaker 1: people coming at a young age and they'd start hanging
[49:11] Speaker 1: out with the wrong people. They'd get clipped by the cops,
[49:14] Speaker 1: clipped by their parents or whatever. That might harden them
[49:17] Speaker 1: up and they stay in crime, or it might wake
[49:20] Speaker 1: them up and they steer away from crime. But now
[49:23] Speaker 1: we've got people just yeah, they can sit on their
[49:26] Speaker 1: phone and get outsourced. Do you want to do an
[49:27] Speaker 1: arm robbery? Do you want to kidnap someone and they
[49:30] Speaker 1: chill someone?
[49:31] Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, Well and film.
[49:33] Speaker 1: It yeah yeah. And there's a problem the problem with it.
[49:37] Speaker 1: So I don't know how we control like the genie's
[49:41] Speaker 1: out of the bag, out of the bottle in terms
[49:44] Speaker 1: of what's happened. But we've got to have people that
[49:46] Speaker 1: have got that moral compass and the resilience to not
[49:50] Speaker 1: be tempted by all these things. How do we create that?
[49:53] Speaker 2: Well, I think we need to. Again, the disparity between
[49:57] Speaker 2: the rich and the poor has grown, you know, every
[50:00] Speaker 2: day on the news. You know, I can't own a house.
[50:03] Speaker 2: Young people own a house, you know what I mean?
[50:06] Speaker 2: Like there is disparity within our society, you know, So
[50:10] Speaker 2: we need to give those people who are available to
[50:15] Speaker 2: be taken advantage of, like forty Like when if you
[50:19] Speaker 2: could sit them down and go like forty grand like
[50:22] Speaker 2: it's nothing it's not life change.
[50:23] Speaker 3: It's ship.
[50:23] Speaker 4: Yeah.
[50:24] Speaker 2: Yeah, like to go and kill someone or to spend
[50:26] Speaker 2: your life. It seems a lot to you now, but
[50:29] Speaker 2: we can tell you. Yeah, you know, if you get
[50:31] Speaker 2: a job, you'll earn twice that any year. Yeah, and
[50:34] Speaker 2: you won't go to prison. And you'll learn it over
[50:36] Speaker 2: twenty years. And I remember as in gold in prison
[50:39] Speaker 2: with old bank Robert Bernie. Yeah, Bernie Matthews said, fucking tato,
[50:45] Speaker 2: Who's what are you doing with them? And they'll give
[50:47] Speaker 2: you away? I don't know.
[50:49] Speaker 1: We love it. I was so sad he's passing. I
[50:53] Speaker 1: became good friends with you. Oh yeah, yeah, I'd visit
[50:56] Speaker 1: him in the hospital and yeah, we he just got
[51:00] Speaker 1: out of prison, I just got out of the cops.
[51:02] Speaker 1: And never the two should meet, but we did. It's
[51:04] Speaker 1: really interesting how friends.
[51:06] Speaker 4: Views and life changes. I get older.
[51:09] Speaker 2: But Bernie said to me, like when I was in
[51:10] Speaker 2: Goldwin with him, you know, you know, he said, I
[51:12] Speaker 2: don't get it. You know, the average Robbie this is
[51:16] Speaker 2: I was in there like two thousand and three, four
[51:18] Speaker 2: or five and four, five and six, he said, the
[51:21] Speaker 2: average arm the fifteen hundred bucks. He was a ridiculous
[51:25] Speaker 2: and you'll do five years to is you know, that's
[51:28] Speaker 2: not a.
[51:29] Speaker 4: That's you know, crime quality.
[51:32] Speaker 2: And so he would say to him, you've got to
[51:34] Speaker 2: look at you know, the young guys, look at the crime.
[51:36] Speaker 2: You know how much you're going to do, how much
[51:38] Speaker 2: money you're going to get. What do you get on
[51:39] Speaker 2: settling in the aftertime, you said, you're better off staying
[51:41] Speaker 2: on setling for five years and not going to jail.
[51:43] Speaker 2: You'll get more money. Yeah, you know. And he was
[51:45] Speaker 2: an arm robber like that was his business. He wasn't
[51:49] Speaker 2: a jesperate drug addict like me, you know what I mean.
[51:52] Speaker 2: But listening to his concept, I mean, you know, this
[51:55] Speaker 2: was twenty years ago. I remember worried about the kids
[51:58] Speaker 2: and their influence and you know, where they were going.
[52:01] Speaker 1: And Bernie opened my eyes. And this is another thing
[52:05] Speaker 1: that's in my notes I wanted to talk about if
[52:07] Speaker 1: I can get a word in, but we'll talk about
[52:09] Speaker 1: it later, But about he spent time up in Grafton
[52:13] Speaker 1: Prison and that's where they were brutalized in prison. So
[52:17] Speaker 1: the recidivism rate is out of control in all states,
[52:22] Speaker 1: so I think. But Bernie said the way that they
[52:25] Speaker 1: were treated, and it wasn't just from the prisoner's version,
[52:29] Speaker 1: because it was the Royal Commission that was accepted that.
[52:32] Speaker 2: Run the gort.
[52:33] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[52:33] Speaker 4: I remember, yeah, yeah, the.
[52:35] Speaker 1: Prison the prisoners would get bashed when they arrived because
[52:39] Speaker 1: they were the ones that they couldn't control.
[52:41] Speaker 4: In the other prisons, recalcitrants.
[52:43] Speaker 5: Yeah.
[52:44] Speaker 1: And Bernie said, you go in there, and he was
[52:48] Speaker 1: rattling off some of the people he spent time in
[52:51] Speaker 1: Grafton with and it was virtually the who's who were
[52:53] Speaker 1: some of the most violent people in the state. But
[52:56] Speaker 1: he said, Gary, that's what happens. If you treat this
[52:58] Speaker 1: like animals, we come out like animals. And that's what
[53:01] Speaker 1: I like. Bernie was thoughtful, but he said the bashing,
[53:05] Speaker 1: solitary confinement, that just broke me down. And I was
[53:08] Speaker 1: just so angry. And I think when he got out
[53:11] Speaker 1: of there, down the Paramatta, I think he attacked the
[53:13] Speaker 1: prison guard and he said, I was so angry. I
[53:15] Speaker 1: was trying to buy his neck like a rabbit dog
[53:18] Speaker 1: and that's violence. And he sort of changed my view
[53:21] Speaker 1: on what we do when we put people in prison.
[53:25] Speaker 2: You know, I always say, and I think you've hurt me,
[53:27] Speaker 2: you know, three five nine two three seven that's what
[53:29] Speaker 2: I've met in prison for only twenty years. I will
[53:32] Speaker 2: never forget it. But that's the first thing they do,
[53:34] Speaker 2: is they do human You're not a person anymore, you know,
[53:37] Speaker 2: And we can romanticize, but you know, they just put
[53:40] Speaker 2: it on Jews arms and yeah, it's exact same, Like
[53:44] Speaker 2: there's psychology around it and it's funny and I'm sure
[53:47] Speaker 2: we'll speak about this more later. You know, when I
[53:50] Speaker 2: was the Australian of the Year thing, I was met
[53:52] Speaker 2: Jess Hill, who was a real big proponent of the
[53:54] Speaker 2: coercive control and I was saying to her, when we
[53:57] Speaker 2: criminalize societal issues, the only option we have is to
[54:01] Speaker 2: send people to prison. And prisons run on cursive control.
[54:05] Speaker 2: So you're charging these guys with cursive control, and you're
[54:07] Speaker 2: putting them into an environment that is run on cursive control,
[54:11] Speaker 2: and the only way you get your knees met is
[54:12] Speaker 2: to manipulate. Like how And not that I'm saying.
[54:16] Speaker 4: No control is bad, but when our.
[54:19] Speaker 2: Only solution is to send them into the most coercive
[54:22] Speaker 2: environment we can.
[54:23] Speaker 4: So how do we get around that?
[54:25] Speaker 3: Well?
[54:25] Speaker 2: I think we'll speak about it later. Some of the
[54:27] Speaker 2: programs we've talked about and you speak to people in prison,
[54:31] Speaker 2: you know, and even you know, I had a meeting
[54:34] Speaker 2: with the government on Monday and they acknowledge there's no
[54:37] Speaker 2: programs for domestic violence, and that in prison most prisoners
[54:40] Speaker 2: and in New South Wales nearly fifty one percent of
[54:43] Speaker 2: the populations on remand now highest in the world, so
[54:46] Speaker 2: they're not standing, so they don't get access to fifty
[54:49] Speaker 2: one percent, you know, directly correlated to you know, the
[54:52] Speaker 2: changes the prison population has gone up by one thousand
[54:55] Speaker 2: and eighty months or fail on AVOs. But the eight
[54:59] Speaker 2: hundred of them Aboriginal man, the white guys doing domestic
[55:02] Speaker 2: violence still at the resource.
[55:04] Speaker 1: Was that was another point that you sent sent through that. Yeah,
[55:07] Speaker 1: there's three justice systems. There's one for the white, one
[55:12] Speaker 1: for the black, and one for the wealthy. And do
[55:16] Speaker 1: you believe in.
[55:17] Speaker 2: That thing one hundred percent? I tell this a story.
[55:20] Speaker 2: I was at Waverly Court years ago with an Aboriginal
[55:23] Speaker 2: client and there's a guy in there who's gone to
[55:26] Speaker 2: King's School and his dad's gotting a five thousand dollars barras.
[55:29] Speaker 2: She's caught with three grams of co came. We can't
[55:31] Speaker 2: have a conviction you're on before the magistrate. You know
[55:35] Speaker 2: he's going to be he's going to be a lawyer.
[55:38] Speaker 2: We don't want to impact his life and all that.
[55:40] Speaker 2: You know, I just thought, well, not two weeks later,
[55:43] Speaker 2: I'm at the Old Central Local Court with another Aboriginal
[55:46] Speaker 2: client and the guy before us is bar refused because
[55:49] Speaker 2: he's been found with someone else's pension card. You know
[55:52] Speaker 2: what I mean, bar refew and I just go refused, Yeah, yeah,
[55:56] Speaker 2: bar refused. And you know I say this, you know
[55:58] Speaker 2: when men's changed the laws around and again it wasn't
[56:02] Speaker 2: He didn't do that on research. He did that on
[56:05] Speaker 2: what Ben Fordham said at four o'clock on Drive By.
[56:07] Speaker 2: You know, I think whatever you called it, the shoker,
[56:11] Speaker 2: the shock jock, but you know, the fear crime. This
[56:14] Speaker 2: is really bad. So he changed those the white guys.
[56:16] Speaker 2: And I know this because you know Michael Slater and O'Keefe,
[56:21] Speaker 2: you know, they're strangling their partners and getting bail and
[56:23] Speaker 2: bail and bail, you know. And I had a magistrate
[56:26] Speaker 2: telling me, you know, they changed the laws of the white,
[56:29] Speaker 2: middle class, upper class guy still have the resources a
[56:33] Speaker 2: new bail, but the Aboriginal guy, and he tells this
[56:35] Speaker 2: story to me that you know, and this is again
[56:38] Speaker 2: about mandatory a vos and not taking things into consideration.
[56:43] Speaker 2: There's an Avo Aboriginal family and mum works at night.
[56:47] Speaker 2: So the way the family worked that dad worked during
[56:49] Speaker 2: the day. Right he came home there, mum went, I
[56:52] Speaker 2: think she worked at a bar or something. She worked
[56:54] Speaker 2: at night. That's how they paid the rent. Well, the
[56:55] Speaker 2: AVA says he can't be there. She doesn't have anyone
[56:58] Speaker 2: else to come in and look after the kids, and
[57:00] Speaker 2: she has to go to work. So she asked him
[57:02] Speaker 2: to come in there because they've got to pay you,
[57:04] Speaker 2: they've got to live. The police drive by. They know
[57:07] Speaker 2: he can't, so they breaching refused, you know what I
[57:11] Speaker 2: mean when when they're trying to pay the rent, you know,
[57:15] Speaker 2: and this you know, judicial office saying it like you know,
[57:19] Speaker 2: And I've had the pleasure of Rainbow when I was
[57:22] Speaker 2: on the board at Rainbow is sitting on with judges
[57:24] Speaker 2: and ex judges, and I have never met a judicial
[57:27] Speaker 2: officer who likes mandatory sentence in the laws.
[57:30] Speaker 1: Well, I think we can all agree on that, but
[57:33] Speaker 1: I look at it from my point of view. Police officer,
[57:36] Speaker 1: you're former police officer, academic and you've done done time.
[57:40] Speaker 1: I don't think mandatory sentencing works for any crime because
[57:44] Speaker 1: each crime is unique. And it's saying the lead up.
[57:47] Speaker 2: I think you speaking to you last time. You were
[57:49] Speaker 2: saying I'm not sure if it was on the podcast
[57:52] Speaker 2: or just in a conversation. You were saying about, you know,
[57:54] Speaker 2: ninety nine percent of the people that you charge or
[57:57] Speaker 2: investigated for murder was a bad decision in a moment
[58:01] Speaker 2: of irrational emotional you know what I mean? Can they
[58:04] Speaker 2: regret it? They're not all like psycho.
[58:09] Speaker 4: Sovereign.
[58:10] Speaker 1: We want to talk about that as well. But I
[58:13] Speaker 1: was talking to and I won't name her as a
[58:16] Speaker 1: private conversation, but a mother whose daughter had been murdered,
[58:20] Speaker 1: and she was really pushing for the aspect of life
[58:23] Speaker 1: sentence for murder. And we're having the conversation. He's gone,
[58:27] Speaker 1: but I've heard you say you don't agree with that,
[58:29] Speaker 1: and it was sort of a tense moment, and I said, look,
[58:33] Speaker 1: in the circumstances in which your daughter was murdered, I
[58:36] Speaker 1: believe that person should get life. There was lead ups
[58:39] Speaker 1: for it. That was a horrible crime in every sense
[58:42] Speaker 1: of it started life for murder. But if there's myth
[58:46] Speaker 1: gain him circumstances. And I was talking about a person
[58:49] Speaker 1: that I had on the podcast just recently, Anthony Jones,
[58:53] Speaker 1: who stabbed his friend and he did fifteen years and
[58:56] Speaker 1: for all intents and purposes, it looks like he's turned
[58:59] Speaker 1: his life. He impressed me. He had a terrible upbringing
[59:04] Speaker 1: circumstances where he was angry, angry with the world. He
[59:08] Speaker 1: had a mate and they got into a fight and
[59:10] Speaker 1: he stabbed his mate's death. He's done his crime, and
[59:14] Speaker 1: I would hate to see him in prison for the
[59:17] Speaker 1: rest of his life. So these are the differences with
[59:20] Speaker 1: it so mandatory sentencing. I don't like a politician's response
[59:25] Speaker 1: that we're just going to get tough on crime. Do
[59:28] Speaker 1: anyone here who I think?
[59:32] Speaker 2: I watched the podcast you guys did together last time
[59:36] Speaker 2: and it really hit me. I think you were speaking
[59:38] Speaker 2: about Rainbow, But was that thing about we don't we're
[59:40] Speaker 2: not soft on quite. We need to be smart on crime.
[59:43] Speaker 2: And we're working with humans, so the individuals. And again
[59:49] Speaker 2: back to when I've had interactions with the judiciary, you know,
[59:53] Speaker 2: to be a judge, like, you don't come out of
[59:55] Speaker 2: university and become a judge. You know what I mean.
[59:58] Speaker 2: You've been a lawyer. You're in the system, like you know,
[1:00:00] Speaker 2: it's and it's a position within our community that it's
[1:00:03] Speaker 2: an honored position and the title.
[1:00:07] Speaker 3: Yeah.
[1:00:07] Speaker 2: Yeah, they're there to judge, and we take away.
[1:00:10] Speaker 4: All their discretion or their.
[1:00:12] Speaker 2: Discretion when like that's what we pay. That's their job
[1:00:15] Speaker 2: to make judgment on all the circumstances and whether people
[1:00:19] Speaker 2: like it or not. And you guys would know this,
[1:00:21] Speaker 2: I certainly know this that you know, knowing someone's committed
[1:00:26] Speaker 2: a crime and then being able to convict him of
[1:00:29] Speaker 2: that under our system.
[1:00:31] Speaker 4: Just of course not guilty doesn't mean they're not guilty.
[1:00:34] Speaker 2: No, or they found not guilty's two different things. But
[1:00:38] Speaker 2: that system and it's the same with life sentences and
[1:00:41] Speaker 2: well i'm against the death penalty. Is those systems are
[1:00:44] Speaker 2: there to protect the innocent person who gets caught up
[1:00:47] Speaker 2: in it. Yeah, you know what I mean, because you know,
[1:00:49] Speaker 2: once you've killed them, you can't come back every twenty
[1:00:52] Speaker 2: years later and go sorry, we made a mistake. And
[1:00:53] Speaker 2: you hear like every second week in America with DNA,
[1:00:57] Speaker 2: mostly black men have been down innocent. You know, you
[1:01:00] Speaker 2: killed them. You can't you can't come back and go, shit,
[1:01:03] Speaker 2: we made a mistake. So that's why I think, you know,
[1:01:05] Speaker 2: we need to have discretion and our system and it's
[1:01:09] Speaker 2: not perfect, but we need to protect the innocent that
[1:01:12] Speaker 2: get caught up in.
[1:01:12] Speaker 1: Oh for sure.
[1:01:13] Speaker 2: And I know, and don't get me wrong, and I've
[1:01:16] Speaker 2: been the victim of crime and all that it was.
[1:01:18] Speaker 2: And you know, I'm not sure if the lady was
[1:01:20] Speaker 2: speaking to it, but you know, I think one of
[1:01:23] Speaker 2: her daughter was a client of mine, was horrifically murdered,
[1:01:26] Speaker 2: you know. And I remember speaking to the police officer
[1:01:28] Speaker 2: and they were saying that the constable, the general duties
[1:01:33] Speaker 2: guy who got there on the first in the scene,
[1:01:35] Speaker 2: her two year old was playing in her body. She's
[1:01:37] Speaker 2: been stabbed like forty times and he was trying to
[1:01:40] Speaker 2: wash this baby. And he's never worked again like that,
[1:01:44] Speaker 2: you know. And we're talking about having psychologies. How do
[1:01:47] Speaker 2: you how do you like this person who was only
[1:01:50] Speaker 2: a young officer who just went to work, remember you
[1:01:52] Speaker 2: know what I mean, and walked into that situation. I remember,
[1:01:55] Speaker 2: you know that the police officers talking to me and
[1:01:57] Speaker 2: like he's never gone back to me, you know, And
[1:02:00] Speaker 2: they were trying to get the baby's trying to wash
[1:02:02] Speaker 2: the baby because of the baby been in the mum.
[1:02:04] Speaker 5: Yeah.
[1:02:04] Speaker 1: Yeah, Well one of the last murders I did before
[1:02:09] Speaker 1: I left or headed up the investigation, that was a
[1:02:13] Speaker 1: person and got involved in ice. And I got to
[1:02:15] Speaker 1: tell you the ice that was just when I spoke
[1:02:21] Speaker 1: any day, there was there was no soul in his eyes.
[1:02:24] Speaker 1: And the person that he murdered, the young child was
[1:02:29] Speaker 1: in the in the kitchen with the deceased mother for
[1:02:31] Speaker 1: a long time as well, just horrendous. Look, we're going
[1:02:35] Speaker 1: to take a break when we get back. I want
[1:02:37] Speaker 1: to talk about a Vos domestic violence and all that
[1:02:41] Speaker 1: that type of stuff, because when we had a coffee
[1:02:44] Speaker 1: last time and the project that you guys were talking about,
[1:02:47] Speaker 1: it just made so much, so much sense to me.
[1:02:50] Speaker 1: We might talk about Desi Freeman, who passed away a
[1:02:54] Speaker 1: couple of days ago, and we're also going to talk
[1:02:57] Speaker 1: about remote control submarines because that was one.
[1:02:59] Speaker 5: Of the time It's amazing, amazing I.
[1:03:02] Speaker 1: Wanted to talk about. So that's got my curiosity. But yeah,
[1:03:06] Speaker 1: I think the idea is like just summing up what
[1:03:08] Speaker 1: we've talked about there. It is complex, isn't it When
[1:03:11] Speaker 1: you're looking at crime, how to reduce crime. But there's
[1:03:14] Speaker 1: a lot of factors that come into it outside of
[1:03:16] Speaker 1: how you approach it, from police, what the legislation is.
[1:03:19] Speaker 1: And I think we would all be in agreeance that
[1:03:22] Speaker 1: prevention is better than cure, like if we can prevent
[1:03:25] Speaker 1: the crime.
[1:03:27] Speaker 2: Yeah, I think a good segue into the next part
[1:03:31] Speaker 2: is Vince said to me, you know with domessic violence,
[1:03:33] Speaker 2: all we've done is taken the failed war on drugs
[1:03:36] Speaker 2: and transferred to the war on domestic violence. Do we
[1:03:40] Speaker 2: not learn something? Yeah, A good way to start of it.
[1:03:44] Speaker 1: Are you right to wrap this up? Then, Vince your permission?
[1:03:48] Speaker 1: All right, we'll take a break and we'll be back
[1:03:51] Speaker 1: soon for part two of this fascinating discussion. Cheers, Dave.

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