# Love bombing, sextortion and financial ruin: Kylee Dennis Pt. 2

An episode of [I Catch Killers with Gary Jubelin](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1506667049), 11 May 2026, 57 min.

Audio: https://p.podderapp.com/2544644999/traffic.omny.fm/d/clips/2fb3740d-3436-44af-8cc0-a91900716aa5/5bc8c2ed-b718-4f44-beb3-ac2a005246cc/06676547-a2ba-4e3d-bc86-b442005472c1/audio.mp3?utm_source=Podcast&in_playlist=786928c3-10c1-4cef-a7bf-ac2a005246d0

Tens and thousands of Australians are scammed out of millions every year. However, the exploitation doesn’t stop there - a shocking number of scammers are human trafficking victims, involuntarily held in prison-like compounds and violently punished if they don’t meet their targets. In part 2 of her chat on I Catch Killers, detective turned romance scam investigator Kylee Dennis reveals the red flags that indicate you're talking to a scammer, how scammers use psychological manipulation to create a perfect storm of emotional and financial devastation, and the connection between romance scams, organised crime, and transnational criminal networks. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

## Transcript

[0:01] Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.
[0:05] Speaker 1: Detective see a side of life the average person is
[0:07] Speaker 1: never exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop.
[0:11] Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years, I was catching killers.
[0:14] Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a
[0:16] Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,
[0:20] Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.
[0:23] Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories
[0:26] Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw
[0:28] Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some
[0:31] Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because
[0:34] Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.
[0:38] Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.
[0:46] Speaker 1: In part two of my chat with detective turned private
[0:49] Speaker 1: investigator Kylie Dennis, we take an inside look at romance scams.
[0:54] Speaker 1: Kylie reveals who's behind these scams, who is being targeted,
[0:58] Speaker 1: and how we can prevent them. We also talked about
[1:01] Speaker 1: the horrific treatment of people coerced into working these scams.
[1:05] Speaker 1: I think you're going to be shocked by the magnitude
[1:07] Speaker 1: of these crimes, but also learn a lot about what
[1:10] Speaker 1: goes on in this growing world. Kylie Dennis, welcome back
[1:16] Speaker 1: to part two.
[1:17] Speaker 2: Thank you.
[1:18] Speaker 1: Are you still saying that it's a privileged to be?
[1:20] Speaker 1: It is a privilege to be.
[1:21] Speaker 2: I'm still excited. You know, I will talk underwater.
[1:24] Speaker 1: I like to do that. It's hard doing podcasts where
[1:27] Speaker 1: people don't talk. How to romance scams typically work. Give
[1:31] Speaker 1: us a like we've heard in part one about your
[1:33] Speaker 1: mum's situation. Just give us an overview of how they
[1:37] Speaker 1: generally start and play out.
[1:39] Speaker 2: So you go onto a dating app, you pick your subject,
[1:43] Speaker 2: the person that you are interested in. You will ask
[1:46] Speaker 2: a question, you know, Hi, how are you? Tell me
[1:49] Speaker 2: a bit more about you? You'll start engaging with them.
[1:52] Speaker 2: And I engage with scammers on dating apps a lot.
[1:55] Speaker 1: So it's always fato with the on.
[1:57] Speaker 2: The always photo. They might have two or three, and
[2:00] Speaker 2: I'll just be you know, an age, an occupation, maybe
[2:04] Speaker 2: where they live, you know, Sydney or something like that,
[2:06] Speaker 2: and a couple of little bits of information about their interests.
[2:09] Speaker 2: They're getting a bit better now, they're putting a little
[2:11] Speaker 2: bit more information into their bio. So then you'll just
[2:14] Speaker 2: say hi, how are you? You know Stephen, and go Hi,
[2:17] Speaker 2: how are you, Samantha? Quick question, and then they will say,
[2:22] Speaker 2: let's take this conversation or do you have a WhatsApp
[2:25] Speaker 2: number or do you have Telegram or zangi, So we'll
[2:28] Speaker 2: go into an encrypted messaging platform.
[2:30] Speaker 1: So that's the first red flag, first red.
[2:32] Speaker 2: Flag straight away. Even if they ask you, I want
[2:35] Speaker 2: you to stay onto a dating app as much as
[2:37] Speaker 2: you can. But as soon as they push you onto
[2:40] Speaker 2: that messaging platform, they start taking control and then you
[2:44] Speaker 2: will spend your life with your phone in your hand
[2:48] Speaker 2: replying back to them, and that's your relationship. So they
[2:51] Speaker 2: will they will then take me over to that and
[2:53] Speaker 2: then we will just start talking. So I'm currently engaging
[2:56] Speaker 2: with someone now, but we're doing that by email. But
[2:59] Speaker 2: I've got a couple of different, diferent scammers because the
[3:01] Speaker 2: language is different and the way they're talking to me
[3:04] Speaker 2: is different. So that's two different scammers, you know, at
[3:07] Speaker 2: the same time engaging with me. But most of my
[3:09] Speaker 2: other times are always on Telegram or WhatsApp a couple
[3:13] Speaker 2: of times zangie. But yeah, I don't, I just use
[3:15] Speaker 2: I say to them I've only got Telegram or WhatsApp.
[3:19] Speaker 2: We go on that and then we just start talking.
[3:21] Speaker 2: They start sending photos. Then they start love bombing. You
[3:23] Speaker 2: know you're beautiful. I love your eyes. Send me your
[3:25] Speaker 2: photo of yourself. Just that typical language. And then they'll
[3:30] Speaker 2: talk about their job. They'll talk about their family. You know,
[3:33] Speaker 2: I have a daughter, she's in boarding school. I'm on
[3:36] Speaker 2: an oil rig out in the middle of nowhere. And
[3:39] Speaker 2: they'll start talking, and then they'll start talking about their
[3:42] Speaker 2: issues within their workplace.
[3:44] Speaker 1: There's always like out on an oil rig or in
[3:47] Speaker 1: Turkey where there was an earthquake, or always looking for
[3:51] Speaker 1: a reason why they're not there.
[3:53] Speaker 2: But yes, yes, and look. And the question I say
[3:56] Speaker 2: to everybody, why you went onto a dating app the
[4:00] Speaker 2: first place to meet somebody? Correct? And you really wanted
[4:03] Speaker 2: to go to the movies and out for dinner correct
[4:06] Speaker 2: or on a cruise or whatever. Correct, person, why are
[4:09] Speaker 2: you engaging with someone who's apparently a civil engineer on
[4:13] Speaker 2: an oil rig in the middle of Netherlands or wherever
[4:17] Speaker 2: that they're telling you that they work three months solid,
[4:20] Speaker 2: which is not true how oil rigs work. But that's
[4:24] Speaker 2: what you want to engage with. And I say, everybody,
[4:26] Speaker 2: that's your red flag because you went on a dating
[4:29] Speaker 2: app to go out for lunch with somebody or to
[4:33] Speaker 2: walk along the beach. But you're spending all your time
[4:37] Speaker 2: on an encrypted message platform talking. That's not what you
[4:42] Speaker 2: wanted to do in the first place. Why are you
[4:45] Speaker 2: doing this? You know I want them to go Well,
[4:48] Speaker 2: she's right, why am I doing this? I really want
[4:51] Speaker 2: to have someone cudd on me or hold my hand.
[4:54] Speaker 2: That's what you want.
[4:55] Speaker 1: Well, okay, if we're looking at the red flags, it's
[4:58] Speaker 1: a fairly obvious one is just when you break it
[5:02] Speaker 1: down like that, it's simple that if you're on the
[5:06] Speaker 1: dating app, wouldn't the next step be let's catch up
[5:09] Speaker 1: for a coffee or something something like that.
[5:11] Speaker 2: And I always say to one if you and because
[5:14] Speaker 2: I know I'm talking to scammers because I do all
[5:16] Speaker 2: the reverse image.
[5:17] Speaker 1: So when you I don't want to sell you out.
[5:20] Speaker 1: There's just someone desperate to find this is your business.
[5:27] Speaker 1: Clients are coming to you with Okay, they've been approached
[5:30] Speaker 1: and you're doing your research, yes, yes, and look very investigations.
[5:34] Speaker 2: I need to understand and I have you know, I
[5:38] Speaker 2: have a special phone, and you know certain identities and
[5:41] Speaker 2: everything like that. I need to understand how scammers work.
[5:45] Speaker 2: I need to understand their language. I unders need to
[5:47] Speaker 2: understand the process from point one to point Z. At
[5:50] Speaker 2: what point are they going to ask me for money?
[5:53] Speaker 2: Where are they working? Is there any new jobs that
[5:56] Speaker 2: they're now undertaking, Like I've had a lumberjack. I've never
[5:58] Speaker 2: had a lumberjack before, which was interesting in California. He
[6:02] Speaker 2: turned out to be a fifteen year old Nigerian boy,
[6:05] Speaker 2: which at the end of the conversation I did say
[6:07] Speaker 2: to him, I make up a story that I'm a
[6:09] Speaker 2: journalist and I'm writing an article or some garbage. So
[6:12] Speaker 2: he sent me a photo and explained, I'm a fifteen
[6:14] Speaker 2: year old boy. I go to school during the day
[6:16] Speaker 2: and I scam at night because I have no money.
[6:19] Speaker 2: And by the way, would you like to buy me
[6:20] Speaker 2: a laptop? Well, of course I said no, I'm not
[6:22] Speaker 2: getting to buy you anything. But yet, so I do
[6:25] Speaker 2: that to learn their processes. You know, is anything changing?
[6:30] Speaker 2: Is the script changing? What are they doing differently?
[6:34] Speaker 1: And you say a script and I've identified the fact
[6:38] Speaker 1: that they're not readily available. Is there anything for starting
[6:42] Speaker 1: right at the start with the photos? Like is there
[6:44] Speaker 1: anything a common theme you see in the photos? Look?
[6:47] Speaker 2: I always say if the photos look really good, and
[6:52] Speaker 2: we go back to that halo bias, you know, we
[6:54] Speaker 2: look at someone who's got a very good looking photo,
[6:58] Speaker 2: or a doctor or an engineer or something that has
[7:01] Speaker 2: a really good profession. We tend to trust that. So
[7:04] Speaker 2: I and I'm not saying that the ugly photos like
[7:08] Speaker 2: it's a really hard thing to Scammers will use beautiful
[7:12] Speaker 2: looking people or beautiful photos and they are whether they've
[7:15] Speaker 2: been adoctored or whatever. That's my first red flag. The
[7:19] Speaker 2: second red flag is how much information is actually in
[7:22] Speaker 2: the profile. There's limited information, just don't just don't go there.
[7:27] Speaker 2: That's that's a red flag. Because if I'm wanting to
[7:29] Speaker 2: look for somebody, I'm putting in divorced, fema with two kids,
[7:34] Speaker 2: a cat. I love this, you know. I hear all
[7:36] Speaker 2: my interests, you know, blah blah blah blah. And that's
[7:39] Speaker 2: what I would put in my dating if I was
[7:42] Speaker 2: online dating. As my fake profiles, I don't put that.
[7:45] Speaker 2: I put basic information, and then the scammers tap onto
[7:49] Speaker 2: me and then I know that they're scammers, you know.
[7:51] Speaker 2: So I mean I've had real people too, but limited
[7:54] Speaker 2: information for me is a red flag.
[7:57] Speaker 1: That makes sense, and the well I suppose it's a
[8:01] Speaker 1: dating app, so people are going to put their best photos,
[8:03] Speaker 1: so it's hard to filter from there. Although I there
[8:06] Speaker 1: was a girl I knew that was going online dating
[8:11] Speaker 1: and she was asking me for my opinions of the blokes.
[8:14] Speaker 1: I said, anyone that's got a photo with your shirt
[8:17] Speaker 1: off and padding a dog, get rid of it.
[8:20] Speaker 2: That's a red flag.
[8:21] Speaker 1: That was That was red flag. That was the way
[8:25] Speaker 1: I helped her sift through, sift through those. Okay, so
[8:29] Speaker 1: limited information, get you off the off the app, onto
[8:33] Speaker 1: a different communications straight away, not readily available, yep, what's
[8:38] Speaker 1: the what's the next move? Then do they get love
[8:41] Speaker 1: bombed with messages always?
[8:42] Speaker 2: And you get told how Not that I'm saying that
[8:46] Speaker 2: people aren't beautiful and all that, but but you will
[8:49] Speaker 2: be told that you are the love of their life.
[8:52] Speaker 2: You know, I may have lost my wife to cancer,
[8:54] Speaker 2: you know, five years ago, but I wish i'd met
[8:56] Speaker 2: you before that, because you are far more special than she.
[9:00] Speaker 2: So it's this intense love connection. And I see how
[9:05] Speaker 2: that works. I can see when if you've I had
[9:10] Speaker 2: a victim who was a victim of domestic violence for
[9:12] Speaker 2: twenty years, and I could see how that love bombing
[9:17] Speaker 2: would work. And she said, you know, once I found out,
[9:21] Speaker 2: once I got involved and told her that she was
[9:22] Speaker 2: a victim of a scam, she said, I still miss
[9:26] Speaker 2: that language. I still miss what he was saying, those
[9:29] Speaker 2: virtual hugs. The money is irrelevant now, it's the virtual hugs.
[9:34] Speaker 2: Because she'd always been told that she was worthless in
[9:37] Speaker 2: her marriage and she was belted and you know, really
[9:41] Speaker 2: treated as we know, you know DV victims are, But
[9:44] Speaker 2: the scammer knew that, so they tapped into that small
[9:49] Speaker 2: piece of information because she had told them that she
[9:52] Speaker 2: was married and was a victim of domestic violence. So
[9:54] Speaker 2: then the scammer utilized that.
[9:57] Speaker 1: I'm saying, you're opening my eyes up to it and
[10:00] Speaker 1: taking away my judgment because when you're saying that, I'm thinking,
[10:03] Speaker 1: how the hell is someone saying you love my life
[10:06] Speaker 1: and you haven't even met and all that, But you're
[10:09] Speaker 1: looking at people that on the apps to start with
[10:12] Speaker 1: that clearly haven't found their connection. So there's starting point,
[10:17] Speaker 1: a degree of vulnerability. You don't know what the backstory is.
[10:21] Speaker 1: And then we all love compliments. You can pete off
[10:24] Speaker 1: it all day if people are complimenting you, So oh,
[10:27] Speaker 1: this is making me feel good. So but the psychology
[10:31] Speaker 1: of it, and there is a real psychology to it,
[10:33] Speaker 1: isn't how they just trap people in on it.
[10:35] Speaker 2: And it's interesting because you can be taken and I
[10:38] Speaker 2: call it that vortex, you know. And we go back
[10:41] Speaker 2: to you're a widow, for example, and you lost your
[10:45] Speaker 2: you know, like a safe example, lost my husband, and
[10:47] Speaker 2: I'm a widow, so yes, I have you know, I
[10:50] Speaker 2: want to now find somebody. So that is that first
[10:52] Speaker 2: step of vulnerability. You know, it's a strength. I mean
[10:55] Speaker 2: Brene Brown talks about vulnerability being a strength. So you
[10:58] Speaker 2: put yourself out there because you think, oh, I'm now
[11:01] Speaker 2: wanting somebody to be part of my life. The scammer
[11:04] Speaker 2: knows that you are a widow because you put that
[11:06] Speaker 2: in your dating profile. So tick right, I've got so
[11:11] Speaker 2: here's the first fishing hook.
[11:12] Speaker 1: Right, So I go, there some sadness that comes from.
[11:15] Speaker 2: Absolutely and then what the scammer doesn't go, I am
[11:17] Speaker 2: also a widow. So now you've got something similar. So
[11:22] Speaker 2: then the scammer can now touch it. And now online
[11:25] Speaker 2: there are scripts out there. This is what they call
[11:28] Speaker 2: the victims clients. If you want to love bomb a client,
[11:32] Speaker 2: this is what you're going to say.
[11:33] Speaker 1: So this is a playbooks abook scammers.
[11:36] Speaker 2: So I have a twenty three page Nigerian scammers playbook
[11:40] Speaker 2: and it starts off, you know, hi, how are you?
[11:43] Speaker 2: And they have answers so if I so, if I'm
[11:46] Speaker 2: engaging with a scammer, now I'll go onto the playbook
[11:48] Speaker 2: and I will say, oh, okay, you know what is
[11:51] Speaker 2: your favorite sport? And you'll see it's a pre formatted
[11:54] Speaker 2: I like to play tennis. Because but and I go, okay, radio,
[11:57] Speaker 2: I now know that he's got the he's got the playbook.
[12:01] Speaker 1: So I try to see the narrative.
[12:03] Speaker 2: Yes, so I can see what they're going to say.
[12:05] Speaker 2: But that's what they're doing. They're using that playbook. Okay,
[12:09] Speaker 2: we have a victim of a client that is a
[12:11] Speaker 2: widow okay I'm a widow, you know, or a client's divorced.
[12:16] Speaker 2: So we're going to ask us some information about you know,
[12:18] Speaker 2: tell me a bit about your you know, how how
[12:20] Speaker 2: did that all happen? You know, my husband chating on me?
[12:23] Speaker 2: Tip Okay, Now I can tap into that. So they
[12:26] Speaker 2: just take those bits of information and then start creating
[12:29] Speaker 2: that narrative. And once you're taken into this this world,
[12:34] Speaker 2: and you are isolated. And I can feel it because
[12:37] Speaker 2: some days I'm going, when are they going to text me?
[12:41] Speaker 2: I've asked them a question. I want them, I want
[12:43] Speaker 2: them to answer. I know I'm talking to a scammer.
[12:46] Speaker 2: I just want to see what their next strategy is. Now,
[12:49] Speaker 2: if I was falling for that, of course, you sit
[12:52] Speaker 2: there with your phone and wanting that connection, because now
[12:56] Speaker 2: you're starting to connect with someone who's interested in you.
[13:00] Speaker 1: And if you start flirting with someone via text, it
[13:03] Speaker 1: can become addictive. Gun, So can I imagine. I can
[13:06] Speaker 1: imagine they're getting the rush of the excitement he's contacted
[13:10] Speaker 1: me again, or she's contacted me again, and a little
[13:12] Speaker 1: bit as it builds up a little bit of flirtation
[13:15] Speaker 1: of yeah, the connection.
[13:16] Speaker 2: And you hit the nail on the head. If someone
[13:19] Speaker 2: tells you you look great, you just.
[13:21] Speaker 1: Go, let's keep going.
[13:25] Speaker 2: I'm feeling a million dollars and that's all they have
[13:28] Speaker 2: to do is say your eyes are beautiful, I love
[13:32] Speaker 2: your smile. Now if you're we go back to my
[13:35] Speaker 2: DV girl, she didn't have any of that.
[13:38] Speaker 1: Okay, I can see see that, and.
[13:41] Speaker 2: That's why I try to say to everyone, this is
[13:43] Speaker 2: not about being stupid. This is about a background that
[13:47] Speaker 2: someone's gone through. And I'll use my mom My. Mum
[13:49] Speaker 2: has been single for twenty years. So when Donald the
[13:53] Speaker 2: scammer came in on and he was saying to her,
[13:56] Speaker 2: I can't wait to spend time with you. Were going
[14:00] Speaker 2: to go on a cruise, We're going to build this
[14:03] Speaker 2: and I could see all love language and knowing what
[14:07] Speaker 2: my mum wanted. This tapped into exactly what she was missing.
[14:14] Speaker 2: And that's what they do. So victims aren't stupid, they're
[14:18] Speaker 2: just listening to someone because why would they believe that
[14:21] Speaker 2: it's a scammer. There's no reason for them to believe that.
[14:24] Speaker 1: Well, I think they're in that vortex of so looking
[14:28] Speaker 1: for that companionship. And it is a private thing when
[14:32] Speaker 1: you're first starting off a relationship, so you're not sharing
[14:34] Speaker 1: it with everyone. And yeah, with your mum, it's sort
[14:39] Speaker 1: of even if it was a legitimate one, she'd be
[14:42] Speaker 1: a bit hesitant in telling anyone I'm starting to see someone,
[14:45] Speaker 1: So I can imagine why they'd sit on that. When
[14:49] Speaker 1: does it go into okay? How do they start getting
[14:53] Speaker 1: the getting the money or making a benefit.
[14:55] Speaker 2: So they just start telling a story. So they will
[14:58] Speaker 2: start and it is drip feeding. They're not. I mean
[15:00] Speaker 2: I've had a few that have very been very quick,
[15:03] Speaker 2: wanting money straight away. But normally they will start with
[15:07] Speaker 2: and we'll use the oil rig for example. Look, I
[15:10] Speaker 2: can't video call you. We've got a bit of problem
[15:13] Speaker 2: with Wi Fi. I can't get to my bank. Would
[15:15] Speaker 2: you be able to just send me some money? The
[15:18] Speaker 2: only way we can deal it is through a gift card.
[15:21] Speaker 2: You know, Oh yeah, how much you need? Look, thirty
[15:23] Speaker 2: dollars will be all right. So you know you're holf
[15:25] Speaker 2: off down to wall Is, pick up your gift card,
[15:27] Speaker 2: come back. You take a photo of the back of
[15:29] Speaker 2: the gift card with the code and you send it
[15:31] Speaker 2: to them. Right, So it is that slow drip feed.
[15:35] Speaker 1: And that this is like I would imagine if I
[15:38] Speaker 1: was trying to create a narrative. There, I'm on the
[15:41] Speaker 1: oil rig. Internet's down or whatever. I can't get access
[15:44] Speaker 1: to my bank accounts. But it's my child's yes birthday.
[15:48] Speaker 1: I just need to send them something.
[15:50] Speaker 2: Something, So if you send me the gift card, I
[15:52] Speaker 2: will then be able to send that on Oh that
[15:54] Speaker 2: sounds legitimate, okay.
[15:56] Speaker 1: And you're thinking, you're not asking, he's not asking. The
[15:59] Speaker 1: world is just asking for thirty dollars gift cards.
[16:02] Speaker 2: Right, thirty dollars, And then that just slowly creeps up.
[16:06] Speaker 2: You know that there's an urgency. I think one of
[16:10] Speaker 2: the scammers said to me, look, I've got some problems
[16:12] Speaker 2: with the tools that are on the oil rig. I
[16:15] Speaker 2: need to buy some extra tool. You know, it doesn't
[16:19] Speaker 2: make any sense, but remember when you're involved with that person,
[16:23] Speaker 2: that does make sense because they have laid the foundations
[16:27] Speaker 2: and now they're just slowly starting to build the house.
[16:29] Speaker 2: So they have done that, you know, maybe in six
[16:32] Speaker 2: weeks of laying or a couple of months. Then all
[16:34] Speaker 2: of a sudden they're saying, you've got a problem with
[16:37] Speaker 2: something to do with the workers, and I need to
[16:39] Speaker 2: do this. And then all of a sudden you're then
[16:41] Speaker 2: sending money or I've got this great investment opportunity I've
[16:45] Speaker 2: just found out. Please don't tell anybody, this is just
[16:48] Speaker 2: between you and I. So they then start feeding that part.
[16:52] Speaker 2: So it's that they're drip feeding urgency and necessity and
[16:56] Speaker 2: you're the only one that is going to be able
[16:58] Speaker 2: to help me.
[16:59] Speaker 1: Yeah, I can see makes a lot of sense. Yeah,
[17:02] Speaker 1: And I also like the Internet and social media, and
[17:06] Speaker 1: that has evolved so quickly people haven't caught up with it,
[17:10] Speaker 1: and I would not. Now I'm not that naive. But
[17:13] Speaker 1: if someone's a failure, well that's a person. There's a failure,
[17:17] Speaker 1: like how and trust it? And I would imagine from
[17:19] Speaker 1: a generational thing, even older people would well, it's online.
[17:24] Speaker 1: I've seen his faith. He exists, and why would they
[17:27] Speaker 1: question that?
[17:27] Speaker 2: Because they're not inclined to question it. You know, maybe
[17:31] Speaker 2: an eighteen year old or twenty year old wouldn't question
[17:34] Speaker 2: more things online than what an older person. This is
[17:38] Speaker 2: in the romance world, they would look at that saying, well,
[17:42] Speaker 2: that's a real person that has gone onto that dating app,
[17:45] Speaker 2: has paid for that privilege to be onto that dating app,
[17:47] Speaker 2: so they must be real. Okay, they don't think, well,
[17:50] Speaker 2: how many people in this dating app is not real?
[17:53] Speaker 2: You know? And don't get wrong, all dating apps can
[17:56] Speaker 2: have fake people in them. I mean, I know there
[17:58] Speaker 2: are some dating apps that have got, you know, the
[18:01] Speaker 2: ability to be able to you've got to do a
[18:04] Speaker 2: reverse tick image. But I've done that using my fake
[18:07] Speaker 2: profile rese So what they've asked me to do on
[18:11] Speaker 2: one of the dating things was to take a photo
[18:13] Speaker 2: of myself, a live moving photo, and then they will
[18:17] Speaker 2: self verify myself to say that that photo is real.
[18:21] Speaker 2: But the photo that's on my dating profile is my photo,
[18:25] Speaker 2: but it's been tweaked a bit through AI to make
[18:28] Speaker 2: me look a little bit older and a little bigger
[18:30] Speaker 2: and all this sort of stuff. So the two photos
[18:33] Speaker 2: are not similar. But the app is just tick the
[18:35] Speaker 2: box and say self verified, so this is right, so
[18:37] Speaker 2: that looks legitimate. So again that doesn't actually work. There
[18:41] Speaker 2: are some great apps out there now that I think
[18:43] Speaker 2: that you actually have to do this. You've got to talk,
[18:46] Speaker 2: you've got to show identification and different bits and pieces.
[18:50] Speaker 2: But some of the basic ones you don't have to
[18:52] Speaker 2: do that. I mean, some of the ones I have
[18:53] Speaker 2: been able to get on. That's fine, which is fine,
[18:57] Speaker 2: But scammer is a little bit better manipulating the system.
[19:02] Speaker 1: A different level. Like on the dating apps that yeah,
[19:07] Speaker 1: people I would imagine misrepresent themselves, but they're not after
[19:10] Speaker 1: the finances. They're just after the short term relationship. So
[19:13] Speaker 1: there'd be a lot of that, so you push that aside.
[19:17] Speaker 1: But the scammers that are the different, different level.
[19:20] Speaker 2: They're at the pure evil level. Their their sole purpose
[19:24] Speaker 2: is financial destruction.
[19:26] Speaker 1: And that's it's distinct from someone on there. I'm looking
[19:29] Speaker 1: for a long term relationship. Hey can we catch up?
[19:31] Speaker 1: And I'm asleep with the person that that night? Correct
[19:34] Speaker 1: that lot. But the scammers are patient, yes, and that
[19:38] Speaker 1: in their their preparation to drag it on. That would
[19:41] Speaker 1: give comfort to people as well. What would you question it?
[19:45] Speaker 2: They're talking to me every day, and the thing that
[19:47] Speaker 2: we've got to realize, it's just they're not just talking
[19:50] Speaker 2: to my profile, you know, my Robert and my Samantha.
[19:54] Speaker 2: They're talking to half a dozen or dozens of other.
[19:58] Speaker 1: Times they're having It's just continual, you know.
[20:02] Speaker 2: And it's interesting because a couple of times I've actually
[20:04] Speaker 2: when I've spoken to them, they've got my name mixed up,
[20:07] Speaker 2: so they've called me something else. So that's a red flag.
[20:11] Speaker 2: But I know that that's a red flag. But if
[20:14] Speaker 2: it was you know, say it was my mum who
[20:16] Speaker 2: really wasn't thinking twice about it and said why did
[20:19] Speaker 2: you call me, you know, Michelle, they would go, oh,
[20:22] Speaker 2: I'm so sorry, that's right. Absolutely, I was just talking
[20:26] Speaker 2: to someone else where I know, Okay, now you're talking
[20:29] Speaker 2: to so, yeah, you've slipped up. And that's what we've
[20:32] Speaker 2: got to understand. It's not just that one person sitting
[20:34] Speaker 2: in a cafe or in their garage at home. This
[20:38] Speaker 2: is this is a well oiled machine. This is whiteboards,
[20:41] Speaker 2: this is we know that we can get us Aussies.
[20:45] Speaker 2: We know if we go on this dating app, we can.
[20:47] Speaker 1: Get this and see a dating app. From a naive
[20:50] Speaker 1: point of view, I think you'd be looking at being
[20:52] Speaker 1: taken the advantage of emotionally in a quick hookup and
[20:56] Speaker 1: then block them. Yeah, so that's the warning signs that
[21:00] Speaker 1: looking at. But these scammers are coming in with completely
[21:03] Speaker 1: different agenda and I could see how the potential victims
[21:06] Speaker 1: miss miss.
[21:08] Speaker 2: It all and again because I suppose and this is
[21:11] Speaker 2: where we're failing in the way that we're educating, right,
[21:16] Speaker 2: because I have a big problem with everything has to
[21:19] Speaker 2: be online. You know, you're defeating we're basically working alongside scammers.
[21:24] Speaker 2: You know, we want everybody to go online and do
[21:27] Speaker 2: everything online. We're failing everybody, certainly in Australia with face
[21:31] Speaker 2: to face.
[21:32] Speaker 1: We don't do this.
[21:33] Speaker 2: This is what we need to do more, because we
[21:37] Speaker 2: need to teach people and older Australians as well. And
[21:41] Speaker 2: I say, I'm fifty six. So when I talk, I say,
[21:43] Speaker 2: us oldies, we need to you know, be front and
[21:47] Speaker 2: center and teach people exactly what they're doing. So we've
[21:51] Speaker 2: got to stop doing the digitized learnings and teach people
[21:55] Speaker 2: and show them. Well, here's a script. Here is what
[21:58] Speaker 2: scammers would do in any scam. We need to learn
[22:02] Speaker 2: from each other and we need to have that conversation
[22:04] Speaker 2: where it's easy for us to say, well, I was
[22:06] Speaker 2: a victim. That's okay, Mary, okay, you too, well bea
[22:09] Speaker 2: that's great. What can we learn from that? Because scammers
[22:12] Speaker 2: want us to be isolated?
[22:14] Speaker 1: That's well? Is that another part that I'm sure I
[22:19] Speaker 1: can't wait to tell my family about you been the victim?
[22:22] Speaker 1: Saying that to what's their playbook for that? I look,
[22:25] Speaker 1: they probably won't understand it.
[22:28] Speaker 2: So they will actually say to you, don't tell any
[22:32] Speaker 2: family and friends about our relationship. It is that special.
[22:35] Speaker 2: They won't understand. Just and again, you've found somebody, you
[22:40] Speaker 2: know in inverted commons, you've found somebody, so you're not
[22:43] Speaker 2: I mean, my mum spoke to her scammer for six
[22:46] Speaker 2: months now.
[22:47] Speaker 1: She has that feels a loneliness void.
[22:50] Speaker 2: To start and I used to say to her, at
[22:53] Speaker 2: what point did you not think that talking to him
[22:58] Speaker 2: at eleven o'clock a night, I know that he was
[23:00] Speaker 2: in Turkey. I understand that that was not healthy for you.
[23:05] Speaker 2: You know, you're in this isolate. You're still in your room,
[23:10] Speaker 2: in your where you live, in your residence. You're not
[23:13] Speaker 2: engaging with anybody else. You're talking to this person online
[23:18] Speaker 2: that is giving you that sense of comfort. And what
[23:20] Speaker 2: they would say is that you know, I will talk
[23:23] Speaker 2: to you tomorrow, my beautiful love. So the first the
[23:26] Speaker 2: last person they talked to, and the first person they
[23:28] Speaker 2: talked to when they wake up. So when you've been
[23:30] Speaker 2: alone for so long, scammers know that this is great.
[23:34] Speaker 2: I will be there. It's not the one scammer. I'll
[23:36] Speaker 2: be there when she goes to bed, and I'll be
[23:39] Speaker 2: there first thing in the morning.
[23:40] Speaker 1: And that's the first person you wake up and look,
[23:43] Speaker 1: oh my god.
[23:44] Speaker 2: You know Frank's you know, Donald sent me a text message.
[23:46] Speaker 2: Oh great, I'll start doing it. But my mum I
[23:49] Speaker 2: noticed that she was sleeping in longer. So she was
[23:52] Speaker 2: speaking to the scams at two o'clock in the morning
[23:55] Speaker 2: and then was you know, not waking up until midday,
[23:58] Speaker 2: and was missing a few like late to a few
[24:01] Speaker 2: family functions, and was always tired. And I just thought
[24:05] Speaker 2: it was a health issue because I'd say, you know,
[24:07] Speaker 2: what's going on? No nothing, because the scammer had isolated
[24:10] Speaker 2: her and told her not to tell anybody. So if
[24:13] Speaker 2: they'd actually told me earlier, maybe I'd picked it up earlier.
[24:17] Speaker 1: From the financial gain side. So we talked about our
[24:20] Speaker 1: gift card. How does it build up to more than that?
[24:24] Speaker 1: Do they get access to bank accounts? So they look
[24:26] Speaker 1: for bank accounts.
[24:27] Speaker 2: They can ask you to create bank accounts. They will
[24:31] Speaker 2: ask you to transfer moneies. My mate needs some help,
[24:34] Speaker 2: can you do this for me? Which we know is
[24:36] Speaker 2: illicit funds, so you transfer from one bank account to another.
[24:42] Speaker 2: I've had a victims who have gone and got loans,
[24:45] Speaker 2: some taking money off their home loan, not not in major,
[24:48] Speaker 2: major lots, but might just go and say, look, I
[24:51] Speaker 2: need ten thousand because right this scammers said, well, I
[24:55] Speaker 2: want us to buy something. I just needed ten thousand dollars,
[24:58] Speaker 2: you know loan. Once that happens, I'll be able to
[25:01] Speaker 2: pay you back. You're not a problem. They go and
[25:03] Speaker 2: take money off their home loan, their savings, and they
[25:06] Speaker 2: send it off to them through Western transfers.
[25:09] Speaker 1: They get they ever get that complicated where the scammers
[25:12] Speaker 1: will send some money as a show of faith, like
[25:14] Speaker 1: I borrow one hundred and I need a hundred for
[25:17] Speaker 1: the gift card, and then a week later pay that
[25:20] Speaker 1: hundred back and then sort of, oh well it's trustworthy.
[25:23] Speaker 1: Last time.
[25:24] Speaker 2: Absolutely, you'll get flowers. You might get a fake piece
[25:28] Speaker 2: of jewelry, like sort of I haven't had that done,
[25:34] Speaker 2: but I know of people that have had, you know,
[25:36] Speaker 2: but they've sent me this, and they've sent me photos
[25:39] Speaker 2: of the house, and they've sent, you know, something that
[25:41] Speaker 2: legitimized that story. Because that's all it is. It's just
[25:44] Speaker 2: I've received flowers for my birthday from you know, my
[25:48] Speaker 2: love interest because you've given them your home address. I'm
[25:51] Speaker 2: not giving my home address to anybody, but they do
[25:54] Speaker 2: give their home address, so they're going to get something
[25:57] Speaker 2: in return. And you think about you spend one hundred
[25:59] Speaker 2: dollars gift card and the scammer wants to make sure
[26:03] Speaker 2: that we're in the right relationship. Well, I'll give that
[26:05] Speaker 2: back to you, Okay.
[26:06] Speaker 1: It was just a borrow that that would be tia
[26:09] Speaker 1: set everyone upgain well the trustworth comes back. Yeah.
[26:13] Speaker 2: Absolutely.
[26:14] Speaker 1: So what's the biggest one that you've seen, like as
[26:18] Speaker 1: in someone that's lost significant without naming names.
[26:22] Speaker 2: The biggest one I've had two. I've had a CEO
[26:27] Speaker 2: of a female smart chick. She lost half a million
[26:33] Speaker 2: through an romance investment and she's she's devastated, and they're
[26:38] Speaker 2: all devastating. Everybody's devastated. But she said, you know, I'm
[26:41] Speaker 2: more embarrassed that I'm an intelligent She's in the fifties
[26:46] Speaker 2: and she just went down that romance that led into
[26:50] Speaker 2: the investment side. Then I had a hard one. He
[26:55] Speaker 2: he's passed away, so he was invested in these scammers
[26:59] Speaker 2: for you. So the ex wife reached out to me
[27:02] Speaker 2: and I put a whole thing together to say that
[27:05] Speaker 2: that is you know, that photo's this, and this is
[27:07] Speaker 2: where we believe the origins of where you're talking from.
[27:10] Speaker 2: There the phone numbers that originated from Nigeria, et cetera.
[27:13] Speaker 2: So you know, I put this thing together. He didn't
[27:16] Speaker 2: believe it. I tried to get the Queensland cops to
[27:19] Speaker 2: do a welfare check because I was really concerned for
[27:22] Speaker 2: his mental health. They didn't. They failed to do that.
[27:26] Speaker 2: I'm not saying they could have done anything, but possibly
[27:28] Speaker 2: they could have. Then he spent fifty seven thousand dollars
[27:32] Speaker 2: on gift cards. He was he'd open bank accounts, he
[27:35] Speaker 2: was sending his pension. But he had he had alcoholic dementia,
[27:41] Speaker 2: so they knew that he was unwell, and they just
[27:45] Speaker 2: wore him down and wore him to the point that
[27:49] Speaker 2: he died last year. And that was heartbreaking because there
[27:54] Speaker 2: were so many factors in this, and so many people
[27:57] Speaker 2: could have helped that they didn't alone the way, and
[28:01] Speaker 2: they the scammers, And so I took his phone and
[28:04] Speaker 2: his laptop, and so I kept talking to the scammers
[28:07] Speaker 2: and they were relentless.
[28:09] Speaker 1: They were just continually what sort of things were they
[28:13] Speaker 1: coming at? Like you would push back a little bit,
[28:15] Speaker 1: or would you.
[28:16] Speaker 2: Look I took the role then as playing his sister,
[28:19] Speaker 2: and I said that, you know, my brother was in
[28:22] Speaker 2: hospital and he had something wrong with his throat so
[28:24] Speaker 2: he couldn't talk. So I would talk to him on
[28:26] Speaker 2: the phone. They had African accents, and what they were
[28:30] Speaker 2: doing they were just saying, well, you know, you received
[28:32] Speaker 2: this package before you've paid us two hundred dollars. There's
[28:35] Speaker 2: another package and the packages you know, money, here are
[28:38] Speaker 2: the photos it needs to come from FedEx, et cetera.
[28:41] Speaker 2: And they just were the packages here or one of
[28:44] Speaker 2: them was well, you know, i'm your wife. You know,
[28:46] Speaker 2: he were meant to help me out, and you know,
[28:48] Speaker 2: it was just that manipulation and they were relentless. It
[28:54] Speaker 2: just never stopped. So this so this victim, he was
[28:59] Speaker 2: just continuely bombarded on every and he thought that he
[29:03] Speaker 2: had a relationship with a male who was you know,
[29:06] Speaker 2: this person in Australia and we were going to do
[29:09] Speaker 2: this and we were going to you know, build this
[29:11] Speaker 2: business and you know this, and then he had this
[29:13] Speaker 2: female who claimed that he was his wife, and you know,
[29:16] Speaker 2: so a couple, Oh, they had scammers going. You know,
[29:19] Speaker 2: I had a few scal.
[29:21] Speaker 1: Would have been like once we've identified this bloat, we've
[29:24] Speaker 1: got him here, we can get him again. Yeah, another one.
[29:27] Speaker 2: So they you know, they take the topic of Michelle's
[29:29] Speaker 2: this person role. So and then we've got Steve's going
[29:32] Speaker 2: to play this role. And then we've got this person's
[29:34] Speaker 2: going to play this role. And they just bombarded. So
[29:38] Speaker 2: he lost around four hundred thousand, and that was a
[29:43] Speaker 2: really hard because he had a health issue and his
[29:48] Speaker 2: ex wife who was beautiful, and his daughter just beautiful.
[29:51] Speaker 2: People tried so hard and we all tried hard to
[29:56] Speaker 2: get him away from.
[29:58] Speaker 1: The scamm I don't and what was this fascinates me,
[30:03] Speaker 1: like it's when the facts are presented to them just.
[30:08] Speaker 2: He was so he was so deeply invested. So there
[30:14] Speaker 2: was you know, and he had that little bit of
[30:17] Speaker 2: he was cautionary about a lot of things, and he
[30:20] Speaker 2: had he had a bit of he was smart too,
[30:22] Speaker 2: he had a bit of an IT background. So though
[30:25] Speaker 2: the facts were black and white presented to him, there
[30:29] Speaker 2: was that mistrust. He was believed they had manipulated him
[30:33] Speaker 2: so well that he believed them over anything that we
[30:38] Speaker 2: had to say.
[30:39] Speaker 1: Well, I suppose again that's human nature, like we've all
[30:42] Speaker 1: had friends or we're been in relationships where you believe
[30:45] Speaker 1: in the person even when the common sense is telling
[30:48] Speaker 1: you that's not not right. Then you just choose to.
[30:52] Speaker 2: Look and you know, and I actually said and I
[30:54] Speaker 2: made it known when when I put it together, I
[30:57] Speaker 2: don't know you. I have no reason to not tell
[31:01] Speaker 2: you the truth. This is my background, my Mom's gone
[31:05] Speaker 2: through you know something similar. So please understand that what
[31:08] Speaker 2: I'm telling you is truthful. You are a victim of
[31:12] Speaker 2: a scam. Please, I need you to really stop and look.
[31:16] Speaker 2: The scam has opened up credit cards in fake names.
[31:21] Speaker 2: Send it to his address. He sent him off. He
[31:23] Speaker 2: was sending parcels on behalf of them, sending passes to
[31:26] Speaker 2: my laisy.
[31:26] Speaker 1: Complexity of it huge, You'd be overwhelmed.
[31:29] Speaker 2: Huge, you know you would need And that's why this
[31:33] Speaker 2: is the saddest part with this is that after it passed,
[31:35] Speaker 2: you know, I reached out to a friend of New
[31:38] Speaker 2: South Wales cops and I said to him, this is
[31:40] Speaker 2: not your jam, I know that, but can you can
[31:44] Speaker 2: you get me into AFP, Just get me into somebody.
[31:47] Speaker 2: So he then sent me to someone else who then
[31:49] Speaker 2: said no, we're not going to touch it. So then
[31:51] Speaker 2: I reached out to someone else and then the end
[31:53] Speaker 2: result was Report Cyber, Report the information which I can't
[31:58] Speaker 2: actually put all the information on Report Cyber because it's
[32:01] Speaker 2: a two hundred page brief, so how do you put
[32:04] Speaker 2: everything in there? And then that then got sent to
[32:07] Speaker 2: the local police station in Queensland, who the local detective
[32:11] Speaker 2: would have looked at that and went, oh, that's out
[32:13] Speaker 2: of our jurisdiction. I can't do anything here, so it's
[32:15] Speaker 2: gone into the ABYSS. Now, my argument was, is there
[32:20] Speaker 2: is information contained in that brief, whether it be the
[32:24] Speaker 2: owner of the accounts for Apple, whether it be who
[32:29] Speaker 2: opened up the mule accounts where they originate. Like, there
[32:31] Speaker 2: is enough. There's phone numbers, there's IP addresses, there's enough
[32:35] Speaker 2: that I think you could put part of a puzzle,
[32:39] Speaker 2: put it on a whiteboard and say let's just leave
[32:41] Speaker 2: that there, because we know that that puzzle piece is
[32:44] Speaker 2: going to fit into something bigger, like an organized crime
[32:48] Speaker 2: that just sits at my home in a folder.
[32:52] Speaker 1: It's difficult because you know the way police work as
[32:55] Speaker 1: I do. And yeah, the different jurisdictions you put all
[33:00] Speaker 1: that together, send it off to Interpol or make connections
[33:03] Speaker 1: with overseas law enforcement, you're not going to get a
[33:07] Speaker 1: lot of attention on it. And I would just imagine
[33:11] Speaker 1: walking into a police station if I've burned scammed like
[33:14] Speaker 1: that and I've seen it, you've come to me like
[33:17] Speaker 1: your mum's you're walking there and say this is going on,
[33:21] Speaker 1: you'd be virtually turned around.
[33:23] Speaker 2: And look, that's really interesting. So I've and I haven't
[33:26] Speaker 2: got a reply. So I've just proposed an initiative for
[33:30] Speaker 2: New South Walest cops and actually for all cops, which
[33:32] Speaker 2: is for that purpose that when they walk into the
[33:35] Speaker 2: police station, the cops can say to them, well, here
[33:38] Speaker 2: is something for you to look at which talks about
[33:41] Speaker 2: transnational organized crime. Why we can't do anything about it
[33:46] Speaker 2: at a local level, but here are some initiatives we
[33:49] Speaker 2: want you to look at. You're not going to remember now,
[33:51] Speaker 2: but I want you to take this book. I hear
[33:53] Speaker 2: everything you're saying. We are interested. We'll take a bit
[33:56] Speaker 2: of that information, but I need you now to report
[33:58] Speaker 2: it onto these and this is why you know. This
[34:00] Speaker 2: is transnational organized crime and this is what happens. So
[34:03] Speaker 2: and I think victims don't understand that they need that
[34:07] Speaker 2: something in their hand.
[34:08] Speaker 1: To actually read.
[34:10] Speaker 2: I think it's a great idea. I'm just waiting for
[34:11] Speaker 2: them to ring me and say, kind of come in
[34:14] Speaker 2: and let's start this initiative, because we're not cops at
[34:17] Speaker 2: a police station. Don't have time to and not critical absolutely,
[34:25] Speaker 2: but they don't have time to sit down and go
[34:27] Speaker 2: through the whole discussion point about transnational organized crime they
[34:31] Speaker 2: you know, trying to explain about scam compounds and why
[34:35] Speaker 2: it's not in our jurisdiction to try to, you know,
[34:38] Speaker 2: investigate something that's happening.
[34:41] Speaker 1: To investigate it. If they came in like your mom stage,
[34:45] Speaker 1: you'd have to have real time access to all the
[34:48] Speaker 1: messages and respond to not this similar to what you do.
[34:51] Speaker 1: So I think education is crucial. Then what you're talking about,
[34:57] Speaker 1: they're like a big big if we then the everyone's
[35:01] Speaker 1: if you get received this on the dating app red Flavor,
[35:05] Speaker 1: that's right, And it's not that complicated, really is it.
[35:08] Speaker 2: Look see, I don't think it's rocket science. And I
[35:11] Speaker 2: really I'm really struggling with when I certainly when I
[35:16] Speaker 2: send out proposals for face to face education, you know,
[35:20] Speaker 2: I received crickets back, and I sort of think, well,
[35:23] Speaker 2: I'm you're not doing the right thing. Certainly in retirement villages,
[35:28] Speaker 2: for you're oldies that are sitting there, they need to
[35:31] Speaker 2: be educated face to face. And when you do do
[35:34] Speaker 2: face to face education, they love it because they get
[35:37] Speaker 2: to ask you questions, and some of them may be
[35:39] Speaker 2: the most simple questions. You know, I've got Microsoft rang
[35:43] Speaker 2: me the other day and they just wanted to have
[35:44] Speaker 2: a look at my laptop. But I just couldn't do anything.
[35:46] Speaker 2: So I'm like, all right, Fran, let's let's not go there,
[35:50] Speaker 2: right we all right, ladies and gentlemen, this is what's
[35:53] Speaker 2: happened to Fran. This is what we're going to learn from.
[35:55] Speaker 2: We're not going to allow anyone remote access to your laptop.
[35:58] Speaker 2: Please understand, you know, simple things like that. Because old
[36:02] Speaker 2: friends thought that I just couldn't do it, then can
[36:05] Speaker 2: you ring me back? Later? Frame would have allowed them access,
[36:07] Speaker 2: which they would have then gone in by destruction destructure
[36:11] Speaker 2: on all levels. So for me, this idea, and you know,
[36:16] Speaker 2: I can talk about that. You know, we spend twenty
[36:18] Speaker 2: million dollars on a ridiculous ad campaign for pumping up
[36:22] Speaker 2: your tires for fuel and all that. You know, seriously,
[36:25] Speaker 2: love of.
[36:25] Speaker 1: God, I'm glad I've found someone like minded on that.
[36:28] Speaker 1: I laughed at that. Make sure you keep airing your
[36:31] Speaker 1: ties and we'll save fuel.
[36:32] Speaker 2: We'll save fuel.
[36:33] Speaker 1: Wow, what a great initiative.
[36:34] Speaker 2: Let's not put anyone in your car. And you know, hey,
[36:37] Speaker 2: how about give me twenty million dollars people, and I'll
[36:40] Speaker 2: go around and educate people on scams. You know, Hello,
[36:43] Speaker 2: you know what I mean, like like it's it's mind
[36:45] Speaker 2: blowing the stupidity of people.
[36:47] Speaker 1: I think we've dating apps, like if people are joining
[36:51] Speaker 1: dating apps, if it was some sort of these are
[36:54] Speaker 1: the things you should look out for.
[36:56] Speaker 2: They do have that?
[36:57] Speaker 1: Do they have that?
[36:58] Speaker 2: They have that?
[36:58] Speaker 1: People just you don't I'm finding love. I don't care.
[37:01] Speaker 2: Yeah, they don't. And look and I suppose again, you know,
[37:05] Speaker 2: you join a dating app and we'll say, you know, don't,
[37:08] Speaker 2: don't give money to someone you haven't met, and you
[37:11] Speaker 2: know the reds, So they've got red flags there. A
[37:14] Speaker 2: couple of things with that is the writing is always
[37:17] Speaker 2: quite small, so if you're an older Australian and older
[37:20] Speaker 2: Australian that that's your first problem. You're not going to
[37:23] Speaker 2: be able to read that. So that's the first thing.
[37:24] Speaker 2: And second of all, you're sort of just you're flicking through.
[37:27] Speaker 2: You're not really thinking about.
[37:30] Speaker 1: You're so excited.
[37:31] Speaker 2: I've just I've actually made the decision to get myself
[37:33] Speaker 2: out there and put myself online. So it's more of
[37:38] Speaker 2: the idea of understanding that you've done that, you put
[37:40] Speaker 2: yourself online. That's great if this happens, you know, and
[37:45] Speaker 2: I saidam if you have not met for coffee in
[37:48] Speaker 2: ten days, you know, two five days, two working weeks,
[37:51] Speaker 2: forget the weekends, it's a no go.
[37:54] Speaker 1: Well see, it's a no go to me. That is well,
[37:58] Speaker 1: I say, common sense, and that's unfair of the people
[38:01] Speaker 1: that oh yeah, but this is slightly different of course
[38:04] Speaker 1: a dating app. And you bought the point up in
[38:07] Speaker 1: part one. It's to have company meet. That's so if
[38:11] Speaker 1: you're not meeting, why are you looking for a companion?
[38:14] Speaker 1: If you're on an oil rig out in the middle
[38:16] Speaker 1: of in the ocean, that's right.
[38:17] Speaker 2: And look and they have these you know. I had
[38:20] Speaker 2: one of the scammers tell me that he was so
[38:22] Speaker 2: worried about the pirates, you know, out in the ocean.
[38:25] Speaker 2: I mean, I really laughed at that. But the sad
[38:28] Speaker 2: part about that is that I know someone else received
[38:31] Speaker 2: the same text message about the pirates. So I need
[38:34] Speaker 2: your help for money.
[38:35] Speaker 1: You know.
[38:36] Speaker 2: We've got to go back to meet them for coffee,
[38:39] Speaker 2: you know. And I will say to the scams, let's
[38:41] Speaker 2: meet for coffee, Let's meet in Sydney, Let's meet at
[38:44] Speaker 2: the cafe and George Street in Sydney. And there's always
[38:46] Speaker 2: an excuse, can't meet there. Oh, look, I've just got
[38:49] Speaker 2: to jump on a plane and I'm now going to
[38:51] Speaker 2: Turkey to finalize this contract. So it will always be
[38:54] Speaker 2: a reason why they cannot meet. They say absolutely, and
[38:58] Speaker 2: then two days beforehand there will be a reason. And
[39:01] Speaker 2: for me, that's your red flag, you know. And I
[39:05] Speaker 2: know it's awful to say it's common sense, because I
[39:09] Speaker 2: say it's common sense. But I want you to go back.
[39:13] Speaker 2: Why why did you want to meet somebody? Yeah, you know,
[39:16] Speaker 2: you really want to cuddle someone. You want to cuddle.
[39:19] Speaker 2: You haven't had a coulor in twenty years.
[39:20] Speaker 1: You want someone that's about Yeah, it's.
[39:23] Speaker 2: That idea of going out for dinner or you know,
[39:27] Speaker 2: it's it's you don't change the plane posts.
[39:29] Speaker 1: Do you think the world has gone so crazy at
[39:32] Speaker 1: the moment? We spend so much time on their phones.
[39:35] Speaker 1: It's almost like some relationships are just this electronic relationship,
[39:39] Speaker 1: so that that probably creates it. Well, I haven't met,
[39:41] Speaker 1: but we're texting every every hour, and that's fulfilling my knee.
[39:45] Speaker 1: That's stopping me being lonely.
[39:47] Speaker 2: Then and look and I I doom scroll. It is
[39:51] Speaker 2: the most I've got this great book I'm reading and
[39:54] Speaker 2: my phone, and sometimes I go and there's two hours gone.
[39:59] Speaker 2: I go, well, there's like ten brain cells I've just
[40:01] Speaker 2: lost because I've just doom scrolled for two hours. I've
[40:05] Speaker 2: learnt nothing. We're so used to that. So you're trying
[40:09] Speaker 2: to teach people don't use this phone as being your
[40:13] Speaker 2: source of a relationship.
[40:15] Speaker 1: That's not in what we're talking about here. But you
[40:19] Speaker 1: can see how people are if you've come up and said, well,
[40:22] Speaker 1: have you met them? No, but I've communicated.
[40:25] Speaker 2: And they've said photos. So I'm talking to a scammer
[40:29] Speaker 2: now that has that has stolen Barry Dua's photos, you
[40:32] Speaker 2: know from so I've done a few with Barry Duoir.
[40:35] Speaker 2: So I'm just allowing them to see how they're you know,
[40:38] Speaker 2: how he's progressing me from point A to point B.
[40:41] Speaker 2: And so there is just photos after photos of Barry
[40:45] Speaker 2: with his twins and Barry at this event and Barry
[40:48] Speaker 2: and you know poor old Bas, I mean, you know
[40:50] Speaker 2: his photo is. I don't know Barry personally, but Bas
[40:54] Speaker 2: and doctor Chris Brown, my lord, their photos are just
[40:57] Speaker 2: used all the time. There is Cris Is out there
[41:00] Speaker 2: and bless him, and a couple of times I've talked
[41:03] Speaker 2: to you know, fake Chris, and fake Chris has got
[41:06] Speaker 2: a you know, African accent, and I just oh whatever,
[41:09] Speaker 2: So you know, they all these photos create the story.
[41:15] Speaker 1: Yeah, so I get it.
[41:17] Speaker 2: Why you believe what is happening on your phone as
[41:21] Speaker 2: a relationship? I get that because that story here. Hi,
[41:24] Speaker 2: my love, I'm at this you know event speaking, and
[41:28] Speaker 2: Barry was at the event speaking, but it was in Sydney,
[41:31] Speaker 2: you know, and he's not dating you, you know, and
[41:34] Speaker 2: he's set the phone. And my kids this is their
[41:36] Speaker 2: first day at school, well it was their first day
[41:38] Speaker 2: at school. But that's not you know, it's not Lewis,
[41:41] Speaker 2: it's Barry.
[41:42] Speaker 1: But if you buy into the first lie, it's easy
[41:45] Speaker 1: to buy into the rest rest of them. Hey guys,
[41:49] Speaker 1: it's Gary Jubilan here. Want they get more out of
[41:52] Speaker 1: Ye Catch Killers, then you should head over to our
[41:54] Speaker 1: new video feed on Spotify where you can watch every
[41:58] Speaker 1: episode the y Catch Killer. Just search for Eye Catch
[42:02] Speaker 1: Killers video in your Spotify app and start watching today.
[42:07] Speaker 1: What's the playbook for? How far do they take it? Like?
[42:09] Speaker 1: How long does it go on?
[42:11] Speaker 2: Years? And you just keep going? It goes as long
[42:16] Speaker 2: as you're prepared to give.
[42:17] Speaker 1: Money and so some of the victims will stay with
[42:21] Speaker 1: it for years.
[42:22] Speaker 2: They have no reason not to believe any different.
[42:25] Speaker 1: And this is I when your mom's at home saying, well,
[42:29] Speaker 1: I've got a relationship. It's an online one, but we
[42:32] Speaker 1: communicate all the time, and.
[42:34] Speaker 2: He's just had to stay over in Turkey a bit longer.
[42:36] Speaker 2: And once it goes for that length of time, the
[42:43] Speaker 2: psychological impact is far more difficult to get them away.
[42:48] Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, because you've got to look.
[42:50] Speaker 2: At they are now so invested.
[42:55] Speaker 1: In the relationship in their mind.
[42:56] Speaker 2: They are so you know, I've got a in West
[43:00] Speaker 2: Australia and it she's she's taken a loan out and
[43:06] Speaker 2: doesn't matter how much I prove to her she's not.
[43:12] Speaker 2: She there is no way this is just so. Then
[43:16] Speaker 2: it becomes a issue where family have to you know,
[43:22] Speaker 2: get involved and start taking you know, control over finances,
[43:27] Speaker 2: and that becomes then there's another family, you know what
[43:29] Speaker 2: I mean, there's another issue because this can go on
[43:33] Speaker 2: for such a long time and they lose so much
[43:36] Speaker 2: money and people don't actually understand. And I'm not going
[43:39] Speaker 2: to use word clever. How manipulative scammers are. They use
[43:44] Speaker 2: words work. You know, we can say the most hurtful
[43:48] Speaker 2: words and break somebody down just with words, you know,
[43:53] Speaker 2: not with violence, and that's what they use. They use
[43:56] Speaker 2: the power of.
[43:56] Speaker 1: Words and making people feel guilty of not doing something again,
[44:01] Speaker 1: like this poor person, he's going to be the poor
[44:03] Speaker 1: that if I don't.
[44:04] Speaker 2: That's right, and that's their skill set, that is what.
[44:09] Speaker 2: And we don't need to be educated now because we've
[44:11] Speaker 2: got enough large learning models out there that will help us.
[44:15] Speaker 2: So anything we need to say, you know, we can
[44:17] Speaker 2: say anything.
[44:18] Speaker 1: That docure or the book that you said, the playbook, Yeah,
[44:22] Speaker 1: it's just answers to all the more questions.
[44:24] Speaker 2: And in that playbook, not only is it just your
[44:27] Speaker 2: basic it actually then will take you into a sexualized part.
[44:32] Speaker 2: You know, how do we then take it to maybe
[44:35] Speaker 2: a sextortion part where I can get naked photos and
[44:39] Speaker 2: move into that part, you know. So though it's only
[44:42] Speaker 2: twenty three pages, I haven't got down to that sextortion
[44:47] Speaker 2: part in my interactions with the scammers, but you can
[44:51] Speaker 2: see that there is the love bombing, then the sexualized bombing,
[44:55] Speaker 2: you know this is and then they will talk about
[44:57] Speaker 2: how to talk in sex in language, but how to
[45:01] Speaker 2: say certain things that you're reading it. It makes my
[45:05] Speaker 2: skin crawl. But I can see how that works.
[45:08] Speaker 1: But you're you're stepping away and looking at it.
[45:14] Speaker 2: But I can see how that works.
[45:15] Speaker 1: And then they get to get them to send the
[45:18] Speaker 1: naked fail or whatever. And then they even declare and
[45:21] Speaker 1: compromise them and go, it's a scammer. We're going to
[45:24] Speaker 1: post this on the.
[45:25] Speaker 2: Bridge, and now we're in another another world of pain.
[45:29] Speaker 2: You know, this is you know, I mean that's another
[45:32] Speaker 2: discussion too about sex stortion, but that still works there
[45:35] Speaker 2: for for adults as well. You know, if they know
[45:38] Speaker 2: that they're at a certain point where they're not going
[45:40] Speaker 2: to get any more money. For example, let's try the
[45:43] Speaker 2: sexy talk. It's evil, It's not this is this is evil,
[45:49] Speaker 2: and this is this is why this has to be
[45:51] Speaker 2: that discussion. This is this is pure evil.
[45:55] Speaker 1: It is because it's ongoing manipulation of someone. And I
[45:59] Speaker 1: would say that there's people whose lives have been destroyed
[46:03] Speaker 1: by this, not just financially, emotionally psychologically.
[46:07] Speaker 2: We know people have ended their life because of the
[46:12] Speaker 2: intense shame that they have felt, but also society doesn't
[46:18] Speaker 2: do a good job of it because we call people stupid, foolish.
[46:22] Speaker 1: Dum, you're combining the shame. We've also losing the relationship.
[46:26] Speaker 1: So we've all been down when you've lost a relationship
[46:30] Speaker 1: and we've all been shamed. You combine the two of
[46:32] Speaker 1: them together and it's.
[46:35] Speaker 2: The perfect storm. And that's the hardest part is this
[46:39] Speaker 2: is the perfect storm. And they say, look, you know,
[46:42] Speaker 2: there are a lot of scams out there, but they
[46:44] Speaker 2: talk about the romance side as being the most devastating
[46:49] Speaker 2: because it has that the emotional you know connection, the
[46:54] Speaker 2: love part and the financial part. You know, an investment
[46:56] Speaker 2: is just like the financial part, where this has these
[47:00] Speaker 2: two components that are so intense they come together, they
[47:05] Speaker 2: combined and it's it is, it's your perfect.
[47:07] Speaker 1: So I'm still sad for the victims as you're talking.
[47:10] Speaker 2: It's awful if.
[47:11] Speaker 1: People become aware or that might be a friend, family
[47:14] Speaker 1: member or whatever and you suspect there, how would you well,
[47:18] Speaker 1: first of all, with your business, people can reach out
[47:21] Speaker 1: to you and you can come in and do the
[47:23] Speaker 1: investigation and then provide the facts. Prior to that, what
[47:27] Speaker 1: would you suggest to people?
[47:30] Speaker 2: Take it very steady, very calm, so don't have.
[47:32] Speaker 1: A bit, don't have a big intervention.
[47:35] Speaker 2: Look, please don't do that. Please. Look, you know, let's
[47:38] Speaker 2: say let's say Granny is involved in something, ask her questions,
[47:42] Speaker 2: show interest, you know, nan tell me a bit about him.
[47:45] Speaker 2: I'd really like to know, you know, show me some photos,
[47:49] Speaker 2: you know, and just slowly show interest. So what you're
[47:53] Speaker 2: trying to do is I always say, like, plant the
[47:56] Speaker 2: seed yourself, you know, get them in there. Oh okay, nana,
[48:00] Speaker 2: oh oh Ideally.
[48:02] Speaker 1: I really it would be if they came back with
[48:04] Speaker 1: the realization then came back to you and said I
[48:07] Speaker 1: think I've been scammed. Yes, that gives them a bit.
[48:09] Speaker 2: And that makes it a bit. And look, I had
[48:11] Speaker 2: a gentleman in Tasmania fifty nine, great good, down to
[48:18] Speaker 2: earth Ossie man, like lovely man, truck drive and everything,
[48:22] Speaker 2: and he reached out to me and he just said,
[48:24] Speaker 2: I just don't know. I think this is real. I
[48:27] Speaker 2: really do think it's real, but can you just do so?
[48:30] Speaker 2: Of course I came back to him and said, mate,
[48:34] Speaker 2: it's not. And these are the reasons what he was devastated.
[48:38] Speaker 2: He'd taken out alone, he'd use finances of savings, you know,
[48:41] Speaker 2: all this sort of stuff, and he just said, are
[48:45] Speaker 2: you sure? And he kept ringing me and went over
[48:48] Speaker 2: for weeks ago, you know, And I said, yeah, I'm sure,
[48:50] Speaker 2: And I said, but I want you to promise me
[48:51] Speaker 2: one thing. You're a trucky, I said, I don't want
[48:54] Speaker 2: you to hurt yourself. You need to ring me on
[48:57] Speaker 2: this time. And he did, you know, and he gave
[48:59] Speaker 2: me guarantees and we work through some processes and everything
[49:01] Speaker 2: that I said to him, and I now need you
[49:03] Speaker 2: to go and get some help with your thing. And
[49:05] Speaker 2: he reached out to some mates and he burst into
[49:07] Speaker 2: tears and one mate was really good. The other mate said, well,
[49:11] Speaker 2: you're a fool, you know. So so then he said,
[49:13] Speaker 2: you know, I've got a mate who supports me, and
[49:16] Speaker 2: I've got another mate who doesn't support me. So then
[49:19] Speaker 2: we've got to be a bit more kinder because it's
[49:22] Speaker 2: so intense, and he's you know, he ranged me a
[49:25] Speaker 2: cup with me. He said, I'm doing better. I'm now
[49:28] Speaker 2: so ashamed that I've lost so much money to what
[49:32] Speaker 2: I thought was a real person. And that's now what
[49:36] Speaker 2: he has to deal with that as well. He's still
[49:38] Speaker 2: you know, he's got his one mate that's helping him through.
[49:42] Speaker 2: But I was really worried for him.
[49:44] Speaker 1: And we've walked through that.
[49:46] Speaker 2: Yeah, and he was and he was so he was
[49:50] Speaker 2: so real, he was so, he was so and I
[49:53] Speaker 2: hate the word vuneral, but he was so. He was
[49:56] Speaker 2: so honest with the way he felt to me, and
[49:59] Speaker 2: I went, you're going to be okay, you will be fine.
[50:03] Speaker 2: You just got to work through it, you know, please understand.
[50:06] Speaker 2: And then I explained about the organized crime part of all,
[50:09] Speaker 2: so you understand this is just not Joe sitting in
[50:13] Speaker 2: a cafe.
[50:14] Speaker 1: Well, I suppose that helps to a degree that you
[50:16] Speaker 1: haven't been con by just one person. You are a
[50:20] Speaker 1: victim of organized crime. And on the issue of organized crime,
[50:24] Speaker 1: we're talking off Mike about recent things in the media
[50:29] Speaker 1: where people are talking about what goes on in these
[50:31] Speaker 1: compounds where these scammers are Just tell us what you
[50:35] Speaker 1: know about that, because I find that frightening that this
[50:38] Speaker 1: is what's happening in the compounds that are generating these scams.
[50:43] Speaker 2: So a victim will apply for a job, for example,
[50:47] Speaker 2: so there's a known victim. He was a gentleman from Pakistan.
[50:51] Speaker 2: He applied for an IT position in Thailand, so he
[50:55] Speaker 2: rocked up there. The person who was pretending to be
[50:58] Speaker 2: part of the company greeted him, took his passport, then
[51:01] Speaker 2: drove him down to me and Mark to the border
[51:04] Speaker 2: down Thailand and he was taken to a scam compound.
[51:07] Speaker 2: And he talks about if you weren't meeting your quotas,
[51:11] Speaker 2: you're you're beaten, you're electrocuted. And we talked about you
[51:16] Speaker 2: know this photos of just people that are just covered
[51:20] Speaker 2: in bruises and welts, and you know they have a
[51:25] Speaker 2: quota to meet and they are held under armed guard
[51:28] Speaker 2: that is run by Chinese organized crime or organized crime,
[51:34] Speaker 2: and in each level within those compounds will be for something,
[51:39] Speaker 2: whether it be an investment, business, email, compromise, romance scam.
[51:43] Speaker 2: So that's your job, and you'll be working sixteen seventeen.
[51:47] Speaker 1: Hour days human traffic.
[51:50] Speaker 2: You cannot leave and if you do leave, it could
[51:54] Speaker 2: be killed. End of story. There's no This is not
[51:59] Speaker 2: fairy dust anymore. This is happening in real time as
[52:03] Speaker 2: we speak. Now we have got and I think the
[52:07] Speaker 2: UN have talked about three hundred thousand victims of human trafficking.
[52:11] Speaker 2: But these are people who have gone to apply for
[52:15] Speaker 2: what they thought was a legitimate job and have then
[52:20] Speaker 2: been taken prisoner and driven to these compounds, and once
[52:24] Speaker 2: one compound is shut down, another one is built, is created.
[52:31] Speaker 2: Because we're talking about corrupt governments, corrupt police, we're talking
[52:35] Speaker 2: about a very wealthy organized crime, you know. And I
[52:40] Speaker 2: said someone the other day, I mean we could be
[52:43] Speaker 2: saying that one of the organized crime leaders could be
[52:45] Speaker 2: buying homes in Sydney Harbor for sixteen sixty million dollars.
[52:49] Speaker 2: I mean, I don't know that. I'm not part of
[52:50] Speaker 2: that world, but that's what we're talking about. This money
[52:53] Speaker 2: is used to pump up the drug trade. You know.
[52:57] Speaker 2: The crimes are the firearms trade. I don't know, nuclear weapons.
[53:03] Speaker 1: Could be terrorism. You don't know.
[53:04] Speaker 2: It's I mean, it's there, and it's it's you know, trillions.
[53:11] Speaker 1: And that's what you know. I think when victims look
[53:15] Speaker 1: and think, how stupid am I, that's what they're up against.
[53:18] Speaker 1: That's what your seventy eight year old mothering against organized
[53:23] Speaker 1: crime on an international networks stage.
[53:25] Speaker 2: And even if we look at if we look at
[53:28] Speaker 2: the Yahoo Boys in Nigeria for example, so they're the known,
[53:32] Speaker 2: you know group that talks about romance, who are very
[53:36] Speaker 2: good and you know at what they do. I'm not
[53:39] Speaker 2: upselling that. I shouldn't say're very good, but they are
[53:41] Speaker 2: good at what they do. They're still organized. You know.
[53:44] Speaker 2: I have a scammer on the books now and he
[53:47] Speaker 2: was part of the Yahoo and he talks about they
[53:53] Speaker 2: they train every day, They learn from each other, whether
[53:57] Speaker 2: it be they post stuff on TikTok, whether they share documents,
[54:01] Speaker 2: whether they write somethinking this work.
[54:03] Speaker 1: I had this situation like that, I said this.
[54:06] Speaker 2: Don't do this, this is what we know.
[54:08] Speaker 1: I mean, they're constantly evolving. Have you seen in the
[54:12] Speaker 1: times that you're looking at they're changing the playbook?
[54:17] Speaker 2: No, not really. I think what I've noticed now is
[54:21] Speaker 2: the use of technology is against us more so I
[54:24] Speaker 2: would have said to you twelve months ago, if you're
[54:27] Speaker 2: doing a video call, they won't be able to move around.
[54:31] Speaker 2: Now they're actually utilizing AI or apps that allows them
[54:36] Speaker 2: to use their body more to put hands over their face.
[54:39] Speaker 2: Because normally I would say don't do this, don't put
[54:41] Speaker 2: your hand over your face because it'll pixelate and it
[54:44] Speaker 2: won't work. That's all changing now, so then that reinforces
[54:47] Speaker 2: that I'm a real person. So they will find one
[54:51] Speaker 2: app and say this is working really well, and they
[54:54] Speaker 2: will train and then they will video themselves doing it,
[54:58] Speaker 2: then they'll put it out for the next scam it
[55:00] Speaker 2: to loon from that. So I just watch that and
[55:03] Speaker 2: go that's exactly. So I try to teach people, and
[55:05] Speaker 2: I say to people, this is what they're learning. So
[55:08] Speaker 2: don't think that just because you're talking to somebody on
[55:11] Speaker 2: a video chat that they're real. They're not with the use.
[55:16] Speaker 1: Of which again is it's just too confusing.
[55:19] Speaker 2: But can't we just go back to face to face?
[55:22] Speaker 2: What is wrong with people? Why are you happy to
[55:26] Speaker 2: sit in your home and talk to somebody on a phone.
[55:29] Speaker 1: Yeah, this is we If people want to reach out there,
[55:32] Speaker 1: how do they look?
[55:33] Speaker 2: You can just go onto my website, which is to
[55:36] Speaker 2: Face Investigations dot au and everything's there, my mobile numbers there,
[55:40] Speaker 2: send me an email, go onto all my socials. I'm
[55:44] Speaker 2: you know, I'm out there. I'm out everywhere. My big
[55:49] Speaker 2: fat head is out there. If you tie Kylie Dennis up,
[55:51] Speaker 2: you'll be able to figure me out.
[55:52] Speaker 1: Well, we're gonna have to wrap it up on can but.
[55:57] Speaker 2: Have a bit of a Debbie down. I've got nothing
[56:00] Speaker 2: to positive to end on.
[56:02] Speaker 1: Well, the positive thing is, yeah, any former police officer
[56:06] Speaker 1: working police officer, and I can tell you we're a
[56:08] Speaker 1: working police officer. I thank for the service to the community,
[56:14] Speaker 1: for the drinkers, I thank you for running a hotel.
[56:16] Speaker 1: But wow, what you're doing now, I think is so
[56:19] Speaker 1: important and you're making making a difference, and it's an
[56:23] Speaker 1: area that you've changed my thinking. I'm never going to
[56:26] Speaker 1: laugh when I see someone, How could they be so stupid?
[56:29] Speaker 1: And just look at the impact and the manipulation of
[56:34] Speaker 1: vulnerable people. And if I learned something in police, I
[56:38] Speaker 1: don't like crooks praying on vulnerable people. So keep up
[56:42] Speaker 1: the good work, keep talking. I'm okay, thanks for coming.
[56:46] Speaker 2: On, Thanks for having me.
[56:48] Speaker 1: Cheers,

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