# How dangerous men think: Brent Sanders Pt. 1

An episode of [I Catch Killers with Gary Jubelin](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1506667049), 26 Sep 2026, 57 min.

Audio: https://p.podderapp.com/2544644999/traffic.omny.fm/d/clips/2fb3740d-3436-44af-8cc0-a91900716aa5/5bc8c2ed-b718-4f44-beb3-ac2a005246cc/52ce312a-d5dd-4661-8f6b-b4d00036e6c2/audio.mp3?utm_source=Podcast&in_playlist=786928c3-10c1-4cef-a7bf-ac2a005246d0

Former police officer Brent Sanders has spent over 30 years teaching consent, sexual assault law and predator awareness to students across Australia. In this episode of I Catch Killers, he sits down with Gary Jubelin to explain how sex offenders think, what they look for, and what every parent and young person needs about how to stay safe and act respectfully when navigating the complex issues of sexual harassment, sexual assault, and consent. From why you should run, yell and fight back instead of complying, to the often misunderstood legal definitions around consent, and how too many young men are crossing the line without even realising it. In this episode: • Inside the mindset of a predator and the fear of getting caught • What serial attackers look for when choosing a victim • Why freezing helps an offender — and what to do instead • Consent, the law, and the line you can't uncross • Brent's journey: arrested at 16 to becoming New Zealand’s youngest police recruit • What every parent must tell teenagers about staying safe You can watch I Catch Killers on Youtube here. Follow I Catch Killers: Instagram: @icatchkillers Tiktok: @icatchkillerspodcast Facebook: @icatchkillers See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

## Transcript

[0:01] Speaker 1: The public has had a long-held fascination with detectives. Detectives
[0:05] Speaker 1: see a side of life the average person is never
[0:08] Speaker 1: exposed to. I spent 34 years as a cop. For
[0:12] Speaker 1: 25 of those years, I was catching killers. That's what
[0:14] Speaker 1: I did for a living. I was a homicide detective.
[0:17] Speaker 1: I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead, I'm taking
[0:21] Speaker 1: the public into the world in which I operated. The
[0:24] Speaker 1: guests I talk to each week have amazing stories from
[0:26] Speaker 1: all sides of the law. The interviews are raw and honest,
[0:29] Speaker 1: just like the people I talk to. Some of the
[0:31] Speaker 1: content and language might be confronting. That's because no one
[0:34] Speaker 1: who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged. Join
[0:38] Speaker 1: me now as I take you into this world. Today's
[0:46] Speaker 1: conversation couldn't be more timely. My guest, Brent Sanders, is
[0:51] Speaker 1: a former cop turned safety educator. He delivers training to
[0:55] Speaker 1: high school and university students on how to stay safe
[0:59] Speaker 1: and act respectfully when navigating the complex issues of sexual harassment,
[1:04] Speaker 1: sexual assault and consent. For young men, his training focuses
[1:08] Speaker 1: on taking responsibility for their actions, resisting peer pressure and
[1:12] Speaker 1: understanding the importance of respect and self-discipline. For young women,
[1:17] Speaker 1: Brent provides practical tools and strategies, helping them understand how
[1:21] Speaker 1: offenders think and how to stay level-headed in potential dangerous situations.
[1:26] Speaker 1: Given everything we've seen in the media recently about alleged
[1:29] Speaker 1: sexual assault incidents, this conversation, I think, is well worth
[1:33] Speaker 1: your time. Brent Sanders, welcome to I Catch Killers.
[1:37] Speaker 2: Thanks for having me, Gary.
[1:38] Speaker 1: There's been a lot in the media of recent times
[1:41] Speaker 1: about groups of young men caught up in serious sexual
[1:46] Speaker 1: assault allegations, a lot of high-profile stuff. We even had
[1:50] Speaker 1: a situation where there was an alleged choking of a
[1:53] Speaker 1: 16-year-old girl during the sex act. And sadly, we see
[1:58] Speaker 1: it in the media too often, women are victims of
[2:00] Speaker 1: sexual assault. So we want to sort of cover off
[2:04] Speaker 1: on that. But you obviously... have an in-depth understanding of
[2:08] Speaker 1: the type of problems associated with those offenses. Education plays
[2:13] Speaker 1: a big part. Would you agree?
[2:15] Speaker 2: Oh, look, 100%. And on both sides of that discussion,
[2:19] Speaker 2: I think a micronism of that, Gary, is I have
[2:23] Speaker 2: a son, I have a daughter. They're older now, but
[2:25] Speaker 2: I've gone into both of their schools over the years.
[2:28] Speaker 2: I've presented in both their schools for close to 20 years.
[2:31] Speaker 2: And young women are entitled to know all the legal stuff,
[2:36] Speaker 2: all the definitions, consent and everything else. Young men equally
[2:40] Speaker 2: are entitled to that knowledge. So I think knowledge is
[2:44] Speaker 2: such an important thing. And I see when I go
[2:47] Speaker 2: into the schools and even at university level, I see
[2:51] Speaker 2: that there's a familiarity with a lot of the terms, like,
[2:54] Speaker 2: you know, terms like consent and terms like that. But
[2:57] Speaker 2: when you sort of scrape below the surface and say, well, okay,
[3:01] Speaker 2: what does it actually mean? to have consent? What does
[3:04] Speaker 2: it mean to give consent? Or if you're advising a
[3:10] Speaker 2: friend on something that's happened to them, where does your
[3:13] Speaker 2: information sort of come from? And I find that that's
[3:16] Speaker 2: where people's knowledge drops off the cliff a little. So
[3:19] Speaker 2: that's sort of where I try to fill in those
[3:20] Speaker 2: gaps and say, well, let's look at what consent is.
[3:23] Speaker 2: Let's look at how it applies. Even definitions carry around,
[3:27] Speaker 2: and we're getting a lot of media reporting with terminology
[3:31] Speaker 2: around sexual crime. People have a familiarity with all these terms,
[3:37] Speaker 2: but they're not quite sure what they mean. So once
[3:40] Speaker 2: you can fill those gaps, I think, and you educate,
[3:43] Speaker 2: that's a big step in the right direction.
[3:45] Speaker 1: Well, that's something that you've, and I'm amazed, and I
[3:48] Speaker 1: had to check my facts, but you've spoken to over
[3:51] Speaker 1: a million students.
[3:52] Speaker 2: I have.
[3:53] Speaker 1: Mate, I've been doing this a long time. I was
[3:54] Speaker 1: doing the calculations. That's a lot, but you've been doing
[3:57] Speaker 1: this for over 30 years.
[3:59] Speaker 2: Over 30 years, and I speak to 30,000 to 40,000
[4:01] Speaker 2: students a year. I go into 150-odd schools, every state
[4:07] Speaker 2: and territory around the country.
[4:09] Speaker 1: And I was not surprised, but it's interesting that there
[4:12] Speaker 1: seemed to be so much hunger for from the students
[4:15] Speaker 1: when you gave the talks that you do, and we'll
[4:18] Speaker 1: delve deeper into the messaging that you're getting across. Sure.
[4:22] Speaker 1: But the amount of hunger from the kids or young adults, teenagers.
[4:27] Speaker 1: Spot on.
[4:28] Speaker 2: You know, I came from a policing background like yourself, Gary,
[4:30] Speaker 2: and I thought the last thing that students would want
[4:33] Speaker 2: to hear about is legal stuff.
[4:35] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[4:35] Speaker 2: I thought that's black and white, dry and boring gear.
[4:39] Speaker 2: Young people, they're not going to want to know about that. 99%
[4:43] Speaker 2: of the questions I get pertain to students wanting to
[4:47] Speaker 2: qualify the legal stuff. Okay, if the law says this,
[4:51] Speaker 2: where's that line? What happens if it's crossed? And they
[4:54] Speaker 2: really want that black and white clarity.
[4:56] Speaker 1: And sometimes it's an awkward conversation. So the parents mightn't
[5:00] Speaker 1: have the conversation with them, teachers mightn't. So where do
[5:04] Speaker 1: they get the information from? And if they're getting the
[5:06] Speaker 1: information from each other, invariably it goes a bit skew-iff. 100%.
[5:10] Speaker 2: And, you know, this generation of young folks that I'm
[5:13] Speaker 2: talking to probably have access to more knowledge and information
[5:16] Speaker 2: than any other generation ever.
[5:19] Speaker 1: Oh, definitely.
[5:19] Speaker 2: But so much of it is unreliable. And I see that.
[5:23] Speaker 2: I see students sort of parroting what they've heard or
[5:27] Speaker 2: what they've read on a blog or something on social media.
[5:30] Speaker 2: And it bears absolutely no resemblance whatsoever to the law.
[5:35] Speaker 2: But because they've read it on a social media platform-
[5:39] Speaker 2: It sort of carries a credibility that's not always really
[5:42] Speaker 2: there in existence. And even when the intent to put
[5:46] Speaker 2: that content up is honorable and it's done for the
[5:49] Speaker 2: right reason, sometimes the knowledge is not quite there to
[5:52] Speaker 2: match it.
[5:53] Speaker 1: Well, I think it's important stuff that you're doing. Before
[5:56] Speaker 1: we get into the messaging and the educational information that
[6:00] Speaker 1: you're providing to the students, let's talk a little bit
[6:02] Speaker 1: about yourself. Mm-hmm. you were a cop, but before you
[6:05] Speaker 1: were a cop, you actually fell foul of the law.
[6:07] Speaker 2: I did, mate.
[6:08] Speaker 1: As a young fella. We all make mistakes. If you're
[6:12] Speaker 1: happy to talk about that.
[6:13] Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure, mate. I've told this story quite a
[6:15] Speaker 2: few times. In fact, when I speak to young men
[6:19] Speaker 2: in my seminars, it's one of the things I talk about.
[6:23] Speaker 2: I've always sort of had this feeling, talking to young
[6:25] Speaker 2: boys or young men about choice, about consequence, about behaviour.
[6:31] Speaker 2: I've always sort of felt strongly that I don't want
[6:33] Speaker 2: to just go in and say, do this, don't do that.
[6:36] Speaker 2: Because they're looking at me going, well, who the hell
[6:37] Speaker 2: is this? What would he know? So I just tell
[6:40] Speaker 2: my story. And I say, guys, I'm not telling you
[6:43] Speaker 2: this because I think you're going to do what I
[6:45] Speaker 2: did or you're going to end up where I ended up.
[6:48] Speaker 2: I'm telling you this because good young blokes can make
[6:50] Speaker 2: bad choices. They can make them in a heartbeat. And yeah,
[6:55] Speaker 2: I grew up in New Zealand, got in a fair
[6:57] Speaker 2: bit of trouble going through year 10. I ended up
[7:01] Speaker 2: pinching a car New Year's Eve. You know, I got
[7:03] Speaker 2: dared by a couple of mates at a party we
[7:05] Speaker 2: were at, took the bloke's mum's car.
[7:08] Speaker 1: It seemed like a good idea at the time.
[7:09] Speaker 2: Oh, hilarious, yeah. And, you know, it was a culmination
[7:13] Speaker 2: of the sort of behaviour that I was expressing during
[7:16] Speaker 2: that time, all about, you know, being scared to say
[7:19] Speaker 2: no to your mates. Creating a version of yourself that
[7:24] Speaker 2: wasn't really real, but you were frightened that people would
[7:28] Speaker 2: see through it.
[7:29] Speaker 1: You're tapping into the peer group pressure.
[7:31] Speaker 2: All that stuff.
[7:32] Speaker 1: And you can do some stupid.
[7:33] Speaker 2: Shit because of the peer group pressure. And it's interesting.
[7:35] Speaker 2: One thing I say to young men when I talk
[7:37] Speaker 2: to them is, you know, the world that they live
[7:39] Speaker 2: in today in many regards is unrecognizable to the world
[7:44] Speaker 2: that you and I lived in in, say, year 10
[7:45] Speaker 2: or year 11. But the stuff that I talk to
[7:48] Speaker 2: them about in this context, it simply hasn't changed. And
[7:52] Speaker 2: I get young blokes coming up to me after the
[7:54] Speaker 2: talks and saying, it was like you were talking about me.
[7:58] Speaker 2: I've been in these situations. And so, yeah, man, I
[8:01] Speaker 2: took that car. I had one of my best mates
[8:03] Speaker 2: in the front seat, another mate in the back. And
[8:06] Speaker 2: long story short, you know, we drove into a school
[8:08] Speaker 2: this one, two o'clock in the morning and plowed straight
[8:12] Speaker 2: through a fence through the side of a house. And, yeah, literally,
[8:17] Speaker 2: you know, you and I have back in the day
[8:18] Speaker 2: climbed through car wrecks where some survive, some don't. Yeah,
[8:22] Speaker 2: I've crawled through car wrecks. where all the occupants had
[8:25] Speaker 2: been killed in the car that were less serious than
[8:27] Speaker 2: the accident that I created.
[8:28] Speaker 1: It doesn't leave you, does it? Yeah.
[8:30] Speaker 2: So, you know, there was an elderly woman in the house.
[8:33] Speaker 2: Could have killed her. So, yeah, that was New Year's
[8:38] Speaker 2: Eve into year 10. So I'd just turned 16, did
[8:41] Speaker 2: a runner, got caught. The old police track a dog
[8:44] Speaker 2: from the car, you know, a whole nine yards. Two
[8:46] Speaker 2: mates could have been charged. Two mates could have been charged. Yeah,
[8:49] Speaker 2: they knowingly got into a stolen car. But one was 15,
[8:52] Speaker 2: one was 16. They got a bit of a, Kick
[8:55] Speaker 2: up the backside. Yeah, I got charged with three criminal offences.
[9:01] Speaker 2: Unlawful taking motor vehicle, dangerous driving, willful damage. And they
[9:05] Speaker 2: were all serious offences to be levelled at a 16-year-old kid.
[9:09] Speaker 2: And you know the process, Gary. You've been in the job.
[9:13] Speaker 2: What they call juvenile justice or Department of Community Services,
[9:16] Speaker 2: they'll go to your school to visit your school and
[9:18] Speaker 2: they'll have a chat to the principal and teachers to
[9:21] Speaker 2: get a bit of a picture. Mate, I'd been suspended
[9:23] Speaker 2: a couple of times that year. I was just- So
[9:26] Speaker 2: the track critical wasn't totally- Yeah, so I had spiders
[9:28] Speaker 2: all over me. So I ended up in court second
[9:31] Speaker 2: week of year 11, pleaded guilty to all three offences.
[9:35] Speaker 2: And it's just funny things that happen in your life.
[9:38] Speaker 2: There was a judge presiding over my case. I'd never
[9:40] Speaker 2: met him. I mean, you know, young bloke, you walk
[9:41] Speaker 2: into court, you're in front of that judge for five minutes.
[9:44] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[9:44] Speaker 2: Then you walk out and another bloke walks in. I
[9:46] Speaker 2: ended up working with him as a copper, funnily enough.
[9:48] Speaker 2: Ian Robinson. I'll never forget his name. Because stroke of
[9:51] Speaker 2: a pen, my life's totally different.
[9:53] Speaker 1: Yeah, it's that sliding door moment.
[9:56] Speaker 2: Oh, mate, he gave me, it used to be called
[9:58] Speaker 2: being admonished and discharged. without conviction. I think they now
[10:01] Speaker 2: call it section 10, which sounds much more official. Admonished
[10:04] Speaker 2: and discharged without conviction basically means, old term is being admonished.
[10:07] Speaker 2: You're being told off by the charge. It gives you
[10:09] Speaker 2: a serve. But you walk out of court without having
[10:13] Speaker 2: a criminal conviction alongside your name. And although that just
[10:16] Speaker 2: sounds like a whole lot of words, you and I know,
[10:19] Speaker 2: A young person that gets a conviction alongside their name,
[10:22] Speaker 2: it stays, can stay with you for life depending on
[10:24] Speaker 2: the offense.
[10:25] Speaker 1: Most definitely.
[10:26] Speaker 2: Yeah. And then you start applying. For example, you can't
[10:28] Speaker 2: get into the police with a conviction. You can't get
[10:30] Speaker 2: a police, army, Navy, Air Force, fireys, ambos, all those things.
[10:33] Speaker 2: So I walked out, probably didn't even know at the
[10:36] Speaker 2: time the consequence of avoiding that. Yeah. So I actually
[10:42] Speaker 2: have a criminal record, but my record contains three warnings. So-
[10:49] Speaker 2: Needless to say, three years later, uh, I walked in
[10:53] Speaker 2: to the Wellington police station, the station that I'd been
[10:56] Speaker 2: arrested at.
[10:56] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[10:57] Speaker 2: And, um, knocked on the door of the recruitment sergeant
[11:01] Speaker 2: and applied to get the job. You know, things had
[11:03] Speaker 2: obviously turned around. I'd pulled my socks up and given
[11:05] Speaker 2: myself a couple of uppercuts. And, uh, and you know,
[11:09] Speaker 2: the first thing they do, I'd imagine it's the same now. Uh,
[11:11] Speaker 2: Gary is, you know, the old recruitment bloke. He's sitting
[11:13] Speaker 2: on the, I'll say a lovely bloke about the age
[11:15] Speaker 2: of my dad, you know, and, He types up your name,
[11:17] Speaker 2: date of birth, puts it in the police computer and
[11:19] Speaker 2: has a quick look at the screen and here comes
[11:21] Speaker 2: my criminal record.
[11:22] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[11:23] Speaker 2: And he sort of looks at it, looks at me
[11:24] Speaker 2: and says, oh, we better have a bit of a
[11:26] Speaker 2: chat about this. Um, but because there was no conviction
[11:29] Speaker 2: on any of the three charges, in essence, they, they
[11:33] Speaker 2: couldn't stop me from applying. They could weed me out
[11:37] Speaker 2: through the process. So I applied and, um, You know,
[11:42] Speaker 2: back in the day, you had to do medicals and
[11:43] Speaker 2: physicals and exams and everything, you know, chin-ups and press-ups
[11:46] Speaker 2: and sit-ups and all the things that, I don't know
[11:47] Speaker 2: if they still do all that. I got through it
[11:50] Speaker 2: and I got in. So I ended up going to
[11:51] Speaker 2: the police college three years after. The first time, the
[11:57] Speaker 2: first lock-up I made was for shoplifting, fairly, you know,
[12:01] Speaker 2: run-of-the-mill sort of thing. A couple of days out of
[12:03] Speaker 2: the academy, locked up a young bloke, same age as
[12:06] Speaker 2: I was when I got done, but he got done
[12:08] Speaker 2: for shoplifting, you know. And so that was the first
[12:11] Speaker 2: time I'd walked back into that same courtroom. The last
[12:13] Speaker 2: time I was in that courtroom, I was a 16-year-old
[12:15] Speaker 2: kid in the dock.
[12:16] Speaker 1: You were the accused.
[12:17] Speaker 2: Now I'm a 19-year-old cop and nervous as all hell,
[12:20] Speaker 2: reading out a summary of facts to a judge. So
[12:23] Speaker 2: life takes you down some funny pathways. And I'm not
[12:28] Speaker 2: saying because of that I was better at doing anything,
[12:31] Speaker 2: but I think... I think I had a, uh, an
[12:36] Speaker 2: empathy that perhaps not all have in those positions for
[12:39] Speaker 2: young fellas that got locked up.
[12:41] Speaker 1: Yeah. I, I, I tend to agree with you. I
[12:44] Speaker 1: think that sort of life experience, you can look at someone.
[12:47] Speaker 1: So when you're putting someone, arresting someone, you know, well,
[12:51] Speaker 1: that could have been me. It was me.
[12:52] Speaker 2: A hundred percent.
[12:53] Speaker 1: That type of, uh, type of situation.
[12:55] Speaker 2: And it's, and this is something I, it's not the
[12:57] Speaker 2: only thing I talk to boys about, but I do
[12:59] Speaker 2: talk to boys about that. And one thing I say
[13:01] Speaker 2: to them is, um, When I was sitting across the
[13:03] Speaker 2: desk as a copper from a young fellow, let's say
[13:05] Speaker 2: under 18, and he's been done for, might be shoplifting,
[13:09] Speaker 2: might be pinching a car, getting a punch up, or
[13:11] Speaker 2: whatever it is. You know, you take the statement, what
[13:14] Speaker 2: mum might be their dad, maybe a lawyer and that
[13:16] Speaker 2: type of thing. I'd always turn the– back in those days,
[13:20] Speaker 2: you know, we had to write the statements out and
[13:22] Speaker 2: they were typed up in the typing pool. It was
[13:24] Speaker 2: all a bit different, you know. Completely. It's all the
[13:27] Speaker 2: same now, but it's all a little bit more streamlined.
[13:30] Speaker 2: I'd turn the– I turned the statement, I put the
[13:33] Speaker 2: pen on top and I'd say to these young blokes
[13:35] Speaker 2: and I, and I tell this in my seminars, I'd
[13:37] Speaker 2: say these young fellows, I said, mate, you don't have
[13:39] Speaker 2: to answer this question. It's off the record, but from here,
[13:42] Speaker 2: we're going to go down the cell block. I'm going
[13:43] Speaker 2: to have to fingerprint your photograph here, the whole nine yards,
[13:46] Speaker 2: because this young bloke he's, he's frightened. He's terrified, you know,
[13:51] Speaker 2: but he doesn't even know how bad things can get,
[13:53] Speaker 2: you know, that decision that he's made heartbeat.
[13:56] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[13:57] Speaker 2: Um, has the potential to change his life in a
[13:59] Speaker 2: way that no other decision could. And you and I
[14:04] Speaker 2: know sitting on this side of the desk, what's coming
[14:06] Speaker 2: for that young bloke. He's got no idea. And I'd
[14:09] Speaker 2: always ask this question. I'd say, mate, can I ask
[14:11] Speaker 2: you before, you know, I've got your statement, everything else.
[14:13] Speaker 2: Can I just ask you, mate, why'd you do it?
[14:17] Speaker 2: And not every young bloke answers, but those that did,
[14:21] Speaker 2: every one of them gave the same answer. And it
[14:24] Speaker 2: would be the same answer I'd have given if the
[14:26] Speaker 2: copper that locked me up had asked me. Mate, they
[14:28] Speaker 2: look up. Yeah, you've been here, Gary. Yeah, they look
[14:30] Speaker 2: up in tears. Mum and dad are there, you know.
[14:32] Speaker 2: And every young bloke who answered said, I don't know.
[14:36] Speaker 2: I don't know why I did it. I can't even
[14:38] Speaker 2: believe I'm here, you know. Yeah, yeah. And I could
[14:41] Speaker 2: relate to that. You know, I woke up literally in
[14:44] Speaker 2: a cell in the back of the police station on
[14:46] Speaker 2: New Year's Day when I was 16. And I couldn't
[14:51] Speaker 2: believe it. what had happened.
[14:53] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[14:53] Speaker 2: It was like it was sort of unreal, you know.
[14:57] Speaker 1: And you can't, and I know exactly what you're talking about.
[15:01] Speaker 1: If you can get that message across to young boys
[15:05] Speaker 1: and young girls, there's consequences from your actions. Yes. And
[15:08] Speaker 1: that's something that you don't at that age actually think
[15:11] Speaker 1: about until you get caught.
[15:12] Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly.
[15:13] Speaker 1: I think of the things that I've done that got
[15:15] Speaker 1: away with and it could have been the same scenario
[15:18] Speaker 1: or even worse.
[15:19] Speaker 2: Yeah, thereby the grace of God go all of us.
[15:22] Speaker 1: So I think if that sort of education and explaining
[15:26] Speaker 1: that to young people, be it young boys or young girls,
[15:31] Speaker 1: I think it's an important message to get across. Going
[15:35] Speaker 1: from there into the policing, so 19, so you were
[15:38] Speaker 1: the youngest graduate.
[15:40] Speaker 2: Yeah, I was, mate. Went in 85, which might have
[15:42] Speaker 2: been about the same time as you.
[15:44] Speaker 1: Yeah, I was 85. Yeah. And you spent how long
[15:46] Speaker 1: in the cops? I was in the.
[15:47] Speaker 2: Job through the 80s into the 90s, close to 10 years. Yeah, yeah. And,
[15:51] Speaker 2: you know, you graduate. Again, you don't think of this
[15:54] Speaker 2: at the time, but, yeah, 19s. It's pretty young. I've
[15:56] Speaker 2: got a young fellow who's 25. I know. And I've
[15:59] Speaker 2: been frontline policing for six years at that stage. And
[16:01] Speaker 2: it's like, in many regards, 19's too young. You know,
[16:05] Speaker 2: I remember when you go through the academy, you might
[16:07] Speaker 2: have a couple of guys in your section who are
[16:09] Speaker 2: in their late 20s or even their early 30s. And
[16:12] Speaker 2: you look at them like they're these oracles. Like, you know,
[16:15] Speaker 2: they've had relationships and some of them are married. And
[16:19] Speaker 2: here I was, mate, 19. only just started shaving and
[16:22] Speaker 2: I'm diving into domestic disputes and I'm trying to, you know, and,
[16:25] Speaker 2: and so yeah, it's a steep learning curve, but, uh,
[16:29] Speaker 2: I wouldn't change it. And, and, um, you know, you
[16:31] Speaker 2: do your, uh, your general duty stuff. Um, I was
[16:34] Speaker 2: young and bit silly. I put your hand up for anything.
[16:36] Speaker 2: So I got a few deployments, did a bit of
[16:39] Speaker 2: the old vice squad stuff, a little bit of, um, uh,
[16:42] Speaker 2: drug squad involvement, then got plucked to do some sort of, um,
[16:46] Speaker 2: short term, uh, UC or undercover operations. And, uh, I
[16:50] Speaker 2: did a bit of gang liaison. I was police liaison
[16:54] Speaker 2: for a mob over there, Highway 61. They were like
[16:56] Speaker 2: a common cheeros sort of a set up, just a
[16:58] Speaker 2: bunch of idiots and did a bit of work there.
[17:01] Speaker 2: I was in the riot squad for a couple of years.
[17:04] Speaker 2: Riot policing in New Zealand came about after the 81
[17:08] Speaker 2: Springbok tour. You know, there was a lot of.
[17:09] Speaker 1: Stuff happening there. Okay, when South Africa came over.
[17:12] Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right. And that was really sort of fractured
[17:15] Speaker 2: society and they formed a unit there called the Red Squad.
[17:19] Speaker 2: And out of that, each main centre in New Zealand
[17:22] Speaker 2: formed a riot squad. It's like they reformed it here
[17:25] Speaker 2: after the criminal riots. I was on that for a
[17:29] Speaker 2: couple of years. I think there was about 20, 30 coppers,
[17:31] Speaker 2: a couple of dogs. And again, you know, that was Thursday, Friday,
[17:35] Speaker 2: Saturday nights, literally going into punch-ups, going into gang confrontations,
[17:39] Speaker 2: warrant on gang houses.
[17:41] Speaker 1: I mean.
[17:42] Speaker 2: Any copper who spent five minutes policing in New Zealand
[17:45] Speaker 2: back in the day, the gang issue was huge.
[17:47] Speaker 1: The gangs were, well, there's still a gang problem, but
[17:51] Speaker 1: it was wild times in New Zealand.
[17:52] Speaker 2: Look, it was. You know, you go into pubs, gang
[17:55] Speaker 2: pubs in Wellington, and this is a pub. We're in
[17:58] Speaker 2: a public bar. The only patrons are members of a
[18:01] Speaker 2: certain gang. And there'd be 100, 150 of them, you know,
[18:03] Speaker 2: full face tattoos, whole nine yards. So anyone who's not
[18:06] Speaker 2: in that gang doesn't set foot in that pub.
[18:08] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[18:08] Speaker 2: So you go in there, there'd be 30 coppers and
[18:10] Speaker 2: a couple of dogs and it could be as, they
[18:12] Speaker 2: could be fine. Those blokes can be okay. They can
[18:14] Speaker 2: be fine one-on-one, but when it goes off, it's like
[18:17] Speaker 2: a firecracker. Just suddenly it's all on. So then I,
[18:20] Speaker 2: you know, I dipped my toe after that, um, into
[18:23] Speaker 2: a bit of sexual crime stuff that, that, that was
[18:25] Speaker 2: all fairly new in the sort of eighties, nineties, Australia,
[18:28] Speaker 2: New Zealand. Um, and you know, without boring everyone to tears,
[18:31] Speaker 2: I got a bit interested in the whole, um, profiling
[18:34] Speaker 2: area that was a bit new.
[18:36] Speaker 1: And saying that, I don't think you'll bore people. I
[18:38] Speaker 1: think that's one of the things that people find fascinating
[18:41] Speaker 1: about the psychology of people who can be offensive. So
[18:44] Speaker 1: I'm interested in what you say. And it is something
[18:47] Speaker 1: that's only come in relatively recent time.
[18:50] Speaker 2: Back in the day, we hadn't even really heard much
[18:53] Speaker 2: about it. Now, You know, there's TV shows, Criminal Minds, and,
[18:57] Speaker 2: you know, you can look on streaming services at how
[19:00] Speaker 2: that all started. You know, it came out of the FBI.
[19:03] Speaker 1: The Mindhunter.
[19:04] Speaker 2: Yeah, Mindhunter. It came out of the behavioral analysis. And
[19:07] Speaker 2: it was also, and I understand because, you know, coppers
[19:10] Speaker 2: are pretty black and white. It was seen as a
[19:11] Speaker 2: little bit of witchcraft, a little bit airy-fairy and things.
[19:14] Speaker 2: And I think it's a lot more widely embraced now
[19:17] Speaker 2: than perhaps what it was.
[19:18] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[19:19] Speaker 2: I mentioned that only because I got quite interested in
[19:22] Speaker 2: that and it created a bit of a platform, if
[19:26] Speaker 2: you like, or a springboard. I got asked to do
[19:29] Speaker 2: a few talks in that space and ended up doing
[19:32] Speaker 2: a couple of talks over here. And one of the
[19:35] Speaker 2: talks I did, there was a woman from the New
[19:37] Speaker 2: South Wales Education Department and it coincided at a time
[19:39] Speaker 2: that they were putting this program together. They used to
[19:42] Speaker 2: call it Crossroads. It has different names. It was sort
[19:45] Speaker 2: of like this extracurricular stuff. for kids I think in
[19:48] Speaker 2: year 11, year 12, around drugs, alcohol, mental health. And
[19:54] Speaker 2: she was representing the education department, wanted to sort of
[19:57] Speaker 2: try and team up or do a bit of work
[19:59] Speaker 2: with someone that could fill in some content around sexual
[20:02] Speaker 2: crime consent and that type of thing. So that's That's
[20:06] Speaker 2: sort of how our paths crossed. And she sent me
[20:08] Speaker 2: a whole lot of stuff on that.
[20:10] Speaker 1: So you were still in the cops in New Zealand
[20:12] Speaker 1: at the time and you did this talk over here. Yeah.
[20:14] Speaker 2: And long story short, I did a bit of liaison
[20:18] Speaker 2: with the education department, took a bit of leave that
[20:20] Speaker 2: took a little bit more than sort of had to
[20:22] Speaker 2: make a decision as to which way I was going
[20:24] Speaker 2: to jump. And yeah, I decided, you know, I'm going
[20:27] Speaker 2: to have a crack. I'm going to have a crack
[20:28] Speaker 2: at this. So that was back in 95. So it's
[20:31] Speaker 2: over 30 years ago. And, but, you know, to- To
[20:34] Speaker 2: walk into a school in Sydney in those days, have
[20:39] Speaker 2: a meeting with a principal and say, look, how about
[20:42] Speaker 2: you let me come and talk to all your students
[20:43] Speaker 2: about sex offenders or sex crime? How does that sound?
[20:47] Speaker 1: It would be a hard sell.
[20:48] Speaker 2: So she was a slow start, even with the education
[20:53] Speaker 2: department's support and things. Nobody had done it. And I
[20:56] Speaker 2: remember one of the first talks I did, there were
[20:59] Speaker 2: three primary school principals at the back of the room
[21:02] Speaker 2: evaluating my talk. And I always And, you know, nothing
[21:06] Speaker 2: against them at all, but they were sitting in there
[21:08] Speaker 2: to evaluate my content on sexual crime and things like that.
[21:12] Speaker 2: That was sort of the test that you had to
[21:13] Speaker 2: pass to get in. And, you know, when I first
[21:18] Speaker 2: came to Sydney, I was bouncing up in the cross.
[21:20] Speaker 1: Yeah, I know. I was thinking about getting you back
[21:22] Speaker 1: on the podcast for another session, my time on the
[21:25] Speaker 1: doors at the cross.
[21:26] Speaker 2: Yeah, I was at the Coliseum up there. You'd be
[21:28] Speaker 2: familiar with that place.
[21:29] Speaker 1: Very familiar.
[21:29] Speaker 2: Yeah, right in the middle of the cross in the
[21:31] Speaker 2: good old days, you know. And I used to work
[21:33] Speaker 2: up there. Thursday, Friday, Saturday nights. And then I'd be
[21:38] Speaker 2: going into schools during the day.
[21:40] Speaker 1: It's a sort of yin-yang lifestyle, going into schools.
[21:46] Speaker 2: Exactly. And I was doing a lot of the schools
[21:48] Speaker 2: free of charge just to get my foot in the door.
[21:50] Speaker 2: And Sydney Morning Herald, funnily enough, years ago, they did
[21:53] Speaker 2: a story. I don't know how they found out. They
[21:55] Speaker 2: did this story about me, and they depicted me in
[21:58] Speaker 2: this sort of cartoon style of a, It's like this
[22:00] Speaker 2: bulldog on a door with a sort of collar on
[22:04] Speaker 2: and then a halo above my head. And it was
[22:07] Speaker 2: sort of like up the cross sort of bouncing three
[22:11] Speaker 2: nights a week and then going into sort of schools
[22:14] Speaker 2: and talking to girls. But it's just, yeah, it's funny,
[22:17] Speaker 2: isn't it?
[22:17] Speaker 1: Well, I think with that sort of background, it comes
[22:20] Speaker 1: like what I know about speaking to young men and women.
[22:25] Speaker 1: You've got to have some credibility, otherwise they're going to
[22:27] Speaker 1: switch off. They're told to sit and listen to people
[22:30] Speaker 1: all day. They're at school. So, yeah, if you've got
[22:33] Speaker 1: the stories, the fact that you're a cop, you had
[22:35] Speaker 1: experience in different things, you could talk to them and
[22:38] Speaker 1: that gets their attention. And I think that's the key
[22:41] Speaker 1: to educating people. You've got to be able to get
[22:43] Speaker 1: their attention first, otherwise it's going to be lost. But from,
[22:47] Speaker 1: and I think it was a school at North Sydney
[22:49] Speaker 1: where you first.
[22:49] Speaker 2: Yeah, they had a very forward thinking principal. So I
[22:55] Speaker 2: did my first talk there, and I still go there
[22:57] Speaker 2: every year.
[22:58] Speaker 1: Tell us, because my understanding is the first lot of lectures,
[23:03] Speaker 1: it was all to female schools?
[23:05] Speaker 2: It was, yeah.
[23:07] Speaker 1: Tell us the messaging that you're giving to female students,
[23:10] Speaker 1: because I think this is the stuff that people want
[23:13] Speaker 1: to hear and understand about what sort of information can
[23:18] Speaker 1: we give to young girls. Yeah.
[23:20] Speaker 2: It's interesting, back at the time, Gary, the education department,
[23:23] Speaker 2: and I was being governed very much by them, they only, really,
[23:29] Speaker 2: they would only allow me to talk to girls, which
[23:32] Speaker 2: you think of that today, it's quite bizarre.
[23:34] Speaker 1: Yeah, I can imagine. Why are you talking to girls?
[23:37] Speaker 1: It's the young boys that the problem. 100%.
[23:40] Speaker 2: But I wasn't in a position to push back on that.
[23:43] Speaker 2: And so I thought, well, I'll just do what I'm
[23:45] Speaker 2: told to do. So I was going into girls' schools
[23:48] Speaker 2: and co-ed schools to talk to girls. So I'd start
[23:50] Speaker 2: at 9 and 8.30, 9 in the morning, and break
[23:53] Speaker 2: for recess and lunch and finish at 3, 3.30. And
[23:56] Speaker 2: I'd be in there talking to the, say, year 11
[23:58] Speaker 2: girls while the guys are outside playing touch footy. And
[24:02] Speaker 2: it was quite bizarre. And then there was a realization, well,
[24:08] Speaker 2: we can't just do this. And it was a total turnaround.
[24:12] Speaker 2: It was like, well- We can't have someone coming and
[24:15] Speaker 2: just talking to the girls. And I'm like, well, I'm
[24:17] Speaker 2: just doing what I'm being told to do. I'm more
[24:20] Speaker 2: than happy to talk to the boys. Let's put something
[24:21] Speaker 2: together for them. So the girls' program very much started
[24:25] Speaker 2: out as an extension, I guess, of that profiling stuff
[24:29] Speaker 2: that I'd done. And the more I studied the mindsets
[24:33] Speaker 2: of these offenders, the more I could see that there
[24:36] Speaker 2: was some real gold nuggets in amongst all that. that
[24:39] Speaker 2: you could impart to those who they targeted. And also,
[24:43] Speaker 2: a lot of the profiling information that comes out, and
[24:47] Speaker 2: I've done my own stuff, and I've read a whole
[24:49] Speaker 2: lot of other stuff, it challenges the conditioning that a
[24:56] Speaker 2: lot of girls and women would have had with regards
[24:59] Speaker 2: to what works best if ever, God forbid, you're in
[25:01] Speaker 2: this situation. So I would go into a school, I'd
[25:05] Speaker 2: talk about conflict, the psychology behind it. We'd go through
[25:09] Speaker 2: the law and things. And then I'd sort of, you know,
[25:12] Speaker 2: I'd do an aspect on, say, date rape, which is
[25:15] Speaker 2: a term that we don't hear as much now, where,
[25:17] Speaker 2: you know, it's a more social environment, which is, to
[25:20] Speaker 2: be fair, is infinitely more common than the stranger type confrontation.
[25:26] Speaker 2: But then I would also, comparatively sort of after lunch,
[25:29] Speaker 2: do a talk to the girls on, on, Stranger offenders.
[25:32] Speaker 2: And I'd run through maybe half a dozen different guys
[25:35] Speaker 2: that I'd profiled from Australia, from overseas, and just run
[25:38] Speaker 2: through that information with the girls. Not telling them what
[25:42] Speaker 2: to do, but allowing them to hear that and then go, well,
[25:45] Speaker 2: hang on. If this is what these guys do, if
[25:47] Speaker 2: this is their selection process, if this is what makes it,
[25:51] Speaker 2: why are we being conditioned or told to do this?
[25:54] Speaker 2: Because that's the opposite. And that conditioning is not as
[25:58] Speaker 2: black and white as people sitting down and telling them.
[26:00] Speaker 2: it's what they're seeing on TV. It's what they're seeing
[26:03] Speaker 2: on street. You know, it's sort of don't yell, don't scream,
[26:06] Speaker 2: don't make them angry. Don't do anything. You'll make it worse.
[26:09] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[26:09] Speaker 2: Where all the evidence was the polar opposite.
[26:12] Speaker 1: To the contrary. Yeah.
[26:13] Speaker 2: And even, I even did at the end of those sessions,
[26:15] Speaker 2: I'd do a small component on, on physical, uh, physical
[26:19] Speaker 2: stuff with the girls just going through half a dozen
[26:21] Speaker 2: sort of basic sort of things. And so that's, that's
[26:24] Speaker 2: how I ran that for, for many, many years. And
[26:26] Speaker 2: then we started doing the boys sessions, um, And now,
[26:30] Speaker 2: if I look at my diary now, Gary, it's probably
[26:33] Speaker 2: split 50-50 with young men, young women, primarily year 10, 11,
[26:38] Speaker 2: and 12, and then up into university. But I do
[26:40] Speaker 2: now get quite a lot of requests for year nine students.
[26:44] Speaker 1: I suppose that's a sign of the times.
[26:46] Speaker 2: It really is. The stuff I talk about is not
[26:49] Speaker 2: that much different, but the kids are being exposed to
[26:52] Speaker 2: stuff so much earlier. But You know, when I talk
[26:54] Speaker 2: to year nines, it is a subtly different presentation to
[26:57] Speaker 2: those older students. Yeah.
[27:00] Speaker 1: Age appropriate for it.
[27:01] Speaker 2: For sure.
[27:01] Speaker 1: Yeah. I see some of the points that you talk
[27:06] Speaker 1: with the younger women, like developing the ability to control
[27:09] Speaker 1: the way we think in a pressure situation. Give us
[27:12] Speaker 1: an example of that or a scenario that you would
[27:15] Speaker 1: explain to the students, the female students, what you're talking
[27:18] Speaker 1: about there.
[27:18] Speaker 2: Back in the day when I was doing a lot
[27:20] Speaker 2: of stuff around, say, a confrontation with a stranger offender,
[27:23] Speaker 2: one of the things I'd talk about is how you
[27:27] Speaker 2: react to that situation is not determined at the moment
[27:31] Speaker 2: that you're in it. It's determined by the conditioning that
[27:33] Speaker 2: you take in.
[27:34] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[27:34] Speaker 2: Because as you know, you've been in a lot of
[27:36] Speaker 2: these things. That's why police do training, training, training, so
[27:39] Speaker 2: that when you're in a situation, you've already trained, you've
[27:42] Speaker 2: tricked your brain, if you like, oh, we've been here.
[27:44] Speaker 1: Before, we're going to do this. Not out of your
[27:46] Speaker 1: comfort zone.
[27:47] Speaker 2: So if you find yourself in a high-level confrontational, frightening situation,
[27:51] Speaker 2: you'll either, if you're not sure what to do, you'll freeze,
[27:54] Speaker 2: because it's like, you know, freezing, or you will just
[27:59] Speaker 2: follow what you've been conditioned to. to do, be that
[28:01] Speaker 2: right or wrong. So if, if an offender jumps out
[28:05] Speaker 2: of a car and say, confronts, say a young woman,
[28:08] Speaker 2: if that young woman has been told, don't yell, don't scream,
[28:11] Speaker 2: don't do anything to make it worse. Well, that conditioning
[28:14] Speaker 2: will in a heartbeat come to the surface and that's
[28:16] Speaker 2: how she'll respond. She'll respond passively. Now that that's just
[28:20] Speaker 2: a result of conditioning. That's okay. Um, that's not that,
[28:24] Speaker 2: you know, if you, if you, if you pick up
[28:26] Speaker 2: a six month old child out of a bassinet and
[28:29] Speaker 2: they don't know you.
[28:30] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[28:30] Speaker 2: They don't respond passively. They reach out. They scream. It's
[28:34] Speaker 2: a natural sort of a response. So I think society
[28:38] Speaker 2: has been, over time, a little guilty of giving different
[28:42] Speaker 2: messages to, say, men in conflict than what we give
[28:46] Speaker 2: to women.
[28:47] Speaker 1: Yeah. We had a guest on a month or so
[28:50] Speaker 1: ago that was a victim of a sexual assault, and
[28:53] Speaker 1: she froze when it was happening. It was a freeze response,
[28:56] Speaker 1: and we broke that down a little bit. And it
[28:59] Speaker 1: was almost that she was conditioned to be submissive in
[29:02] Speaker 1: that if I just don't do anything to antagonize a person,
[29:06] Speaker 1: it won't get any worse. Yeah. So the messaging you're
[29:11] Speaker 1: telling these young ladies is that, yeah, you don't have
[29:14] Speaker 1: to go down that path.
[29:16] Speaker 2: There's other options.
[29:16] Speaker 1: Other options.
[29:17] Speaker 2: If you can run, run. Yeah. And, you know, my
[29:21] Speaker 2: compass always throughout this whole process was what would I
[29:25] Speaker 2: tell my– with the knowledge that I've been able to
[29:27] Speaker 2: accumulate over time, What would I tell my daughter to do?
[29:31] Speaker 2: She's now 28, obviously. But what have I told my 15, 16,
[29:35] Speaker 2: 17-year-old daughter? If she's walking through Surrey Hills, some guy
[29:39] Speaker 2: jumps out of a car. to grab her. Would I
[29:41] Speaker 2: tell her to do nothing? No, I wouldn't. Anyone who's
[29:45] Speaker 2: worked in this environment has understanding of some degree of
[29:49] Speaker 2: psychology of these crimes would say, if you can run, run. Run, yell, scream,
[29:55] Speaker 2: draw attention to the offender. Now, why do we do that?
[29:57] Speaker 2: Because If we can identify the greatest fear that that
[30:01] Speaker 2: offender has, the greatest fear a sex offender has is
[30:04] Speaker 2: getting caught, above everything else. They are absolutely terrified of
[30:08] Speaker 2: getting caught. So they will always, always, always take the
[30:13] Speaker 2: course of least resistance. And the evidence on this is
[30:18] Speaker 2: pretty much indisputable. You could look at any serial sex
[30:20] Speaker 2: offender going back to Albert DeSalvo, the Boston Stranger in
[30:23] Speaker 2: the 60s.
[30:23] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[30:24] Speaker 2: And look at those that he took off from, those
[30:28] Speaker 2: that he ran away from. It's the same with any
[30:30] Speaker 2: of these serial offenders. They will always back away. The
[30:35] Speaker 2: pattern shows that they back away when they start to think,
[30:39] Speaker 2: if I stay here, I'm going to get caught. Now,
[30:43] Speaker 2: what then triggers that? If there's an option to run, run.
[30:47] Speaker 2: Run to a populated location and yell, scream, draw as
[30:51] Speaker 2: much attention to the offender as you can. The chance
[30:54] Speaker 2: of that offender pursuing someone doing that in a populated
[30:57] Speaker 2: location like Sydney is so remote, I don't think I've
[31:01] Speaker 2: ever heard of it happening. So that's the best option.
[31:05] Speaker 1: And I hear you say that, and I understand it,
[31:08] Speaker 1: but that's the things I've been exposed to in policing.
[31:11] Speaker 1: But you're saying- Research, it's not just our instinct or
[31:16] Speaker 1: based on our experience. Research is supporting us.
[31:20] Speaker 2: If you look at any serial sex offender, Ted Bundy,
[31:23] Speaker 2: Albert Selva, any of these guys, look at the pattern
[31:26] Speaker 2: specifically of were they successful 100% of the time with
[31:30] Speaker 2: those they selected? No, their success rate is quite high, tragically.
[31:34] Speaker 2: It's around 80%. So, okay, what's the distinction between the 80%
[31:39] Speaker 2: and the 20%? What happened in that 20% of times?
[31:42] Speaker 2: where they approached that target with the same intention. So
[31:47] Speaker 2: why did they back away? Why did they take off?
[31:50] Speaker 2: You'll see it is as clear as day. It'll be
[31:53] Speaker 2: because the target has done something which has broken that
[31:59] Speaker 2: mental cycle. So, you know, the offender gets out of
[32:03] Speaker 2: a car, he's targeted somebody. So I even go further
[32:07] Speaker 2: than that used to say to the girls, um, Let's
[32:11] Speaker 2: think about why he stopped and targeted you. What does
[32:13] Speaker 2: he see when he sees you? So let's say offender
[32:16] Speaker 2: driving around a suburb in Sydney sees a young 16
[32:21] Speaker 2: year old girl school uniform on her own.
[32:23] Speaker 1: Okay.
[32:23] Speaker 2: So why does he stop and target her? Well, because
[32:25] Speaker 2: he thinks school girl on her own, when I confront her,
[32:28] Speaker 2: she'll be so terrified. She won't do anything. She's an
[32:30] Speaker 2: easy target. I can abduct her and I can take
[32:32] Speaker 2: it somewhere. If that same offender is driving down the
[32:35] Speaker 2: street and sees you or I, he keeps driving. Now
[32:38] Speaker 2: people say, well, that's a ridiculous analogy. Well, it actually isn't.
[32:42] Speaker 2: You and I as males are statistically far, far more
[32:45] Speaker 2: likely to be confronted by physical violence on the street
[32:48] Speaker 2: in Sydney than what females are. But we are selected
[32:52] Speaker 2: for a different reason. So the guy that selects you
[32:55] Speaker 2: or I, yeah, we're big sort of blokes and stuff,
[32:57] Speaker 2: he anticipates we'll fight back. That's a scary prospect. So,
[33:02] Speaker 2: you know, when I've done over the years corporate stuff
[33:05] Speaker 2: with people who are likely to be in physical confrontations,
[33:09] Speaker 2: I teach males de-escalation skills because that takes- Doing the opposite.
[33:14] Speaker 2: Do the opposite to the expectation. Because, you know, mate,
[33:17] Speaker 2: I'm around 100 kilos. If I'm walking through Sydney car
[33:20] Speaker 2: park at the airport and some guy confronts me, he's
[33:22] Speaker 2: been looking at me, watching me. He'll look at me
[33:25] Speaker 2: and think, I'm going to confront this bloke because I
[33:27] Speaker 2: reckon he'll have a go, but I reckon I can
[33:28] Speaker 2: take him.
[33:29] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[33:29] Speaker 2: You know? Now, that's a frightening offender, you know? So
[33:33] Speaker 2: what I would be doing for me in that situation-
[33:36] Speaker 2: Is breaking that cycle by hands up, passive, passive. The
[33:40] Speaker 2: mindset of a sex offender, serial sex offender, total opposite
[33:43] Speaker 2: end of the spectrum. He picks that schoolgirl with it.
[33:46] Speaker 2: He's written a script. They'll often say this in an interview.
[33:48] Speaker 2: She followed the script that I'd written for her. So
[33:51] Speaker 2: he gets out of the car. He starts running toward
[33:54] Speaker 2: that girl. He has in his mind this idea, schoolgirl
[33:57] Speaker 2: on her own. When I grab her, she'll be so
[33:58] Speaker 2: terrified I can do it. Now, the problem obviously is,
[34:02] Speaker 2: That schoolgirl turns around seeing the guy running towards her
[34:05] Speaker 2: and all her conditioning says, don't run, don't scream, don't yell,
[34:07] Speaker 2: don't make him angry. So to use the term of
[34:11] Speaker 2: the offender, she follows the script. What they're looking for.
[34:16] Speaker 2: What they're looking for. So what I are saying to
[34:20] Speaker 2: these young women is, yeah, you have that option. You
[34:22] Speaker 2: have the option of being passive. You can do that.
[34:26] Speaker 2: There's no evidence to show that. There is no evidence
[34:29] Speaker 2: to show that that reduces the likelihood of physical harm.
[34:33] Speaker 2: It doesn't.
[34:33] Speaker 1: Yeah, that's interesting. And I want to delve very deeply
[34:37] Speaker 1: into that because I find that side of things fascinating.
[34:41] Speaker 1: Before we do, and we were having a chat the
[34:42] Speaker 1: other day and what we want to be both conscious of,
[34:45] Speaker 1: two ex-cops talking and telling females how to behave so
[34:49] Speaker 1: they don't get attacked.
[34:50] Speaker 2: Yeah.
[34:51] Speaker 1: I'm very cautious that we don't get accused of victim
[34:55] Speaker 1: blaming here. And so let's have the discussion about that.
[34:59] Speaker 1: What you're saying here is providing strategies to prevent the attack.
[35:06] Speaker 1: In the perfect world, women should be able to walk
[35:10] Speaker 1: along the street without being attacked. But unfortunately, it's not.
[35:13] Speaker 2: This is a male issue.
[35:14] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[35:14] Speaker 2: This is a male issue.
[35:16] Speaker 1: But.
[35:16] Speaker 2: If my daughter's been confronted by a sex offender, she's
[35:19] Speaker 2: not going to get out of it by saying to him, stop,
[35:21] Speaker 2: this is a male issue. So the reality of the
[35:25] Speaker 2: situation is, yes, of course, I speak to as many,
[35:28] Speaker 2: if not more young men than I do young women.
[35:32] Speaker 2: But the women that I've worked with over the years,
[35:35] Speaker 2: what I've been asked to talk about is, okay, what
[35:37] Speaker 2: would my advice be based on all my experience in
[35:40] Speaker 2: these certain types of situations? And you're right. You are 100% right.
[35:46] Speaker 1: Well, you've done podcasts, you know, I've done podcasts and
[35:48] Speaker 1: I understand two blokes sitting here talking about this subject.
[35:53] Speaker 1: But yeah, I just wanted to clarify that. So if
[35:56] Speaker 1: people are listening or watching, they understand where we're coming from.
[36:00] Speaker 1: And I think you said that this would be the
[36:02] Speaker 1: advice I give my daughter. And it's interesting that he's
[36:06] Speaker 1: flipping the psychology. You talked about, you know, the type
[36:09] Speaker 1: of offender that might target a bloke. I've said to
[36:14] Speaker 1: my son and I've said to other young fellas, like
[36:17] Speaker 1: the typical situation is, and you would have seen this
[36:20] Speaker 1: at the cross, you could be at a bar and
[36:21] Speaker 1: someone's looking at you and, what are you looking at, mate?
[36:25] Speaker 1: And I've said, you can de-escalate that. How do you
[36:28] Speaker 1: de-escalate that? Say, sorry, I didn't mean to. I'm just
[36:31] Speaker 1: having a bad day. And that's not the response that
[36:34] Speaker 1: they expect and it confuses them.
[36:35] Speaker 2: 100%.
[36:35] Speaker 1: Because quite often they're not the sharpest pencil in the pack.
[36:39] Speaker 1: So it diffuses them. Another thing that I tell my
[36:44] Speaker 1: children and anyone living in the city, walk with confidence. Yes.
[36:49] Speaker 1: What do you mean? And they would laugh when I
[36:51] Speaker 1: said that when my kids were younger. I want you
[36:53] Speaker 1: to walk with confidence when you're walking through the city.
[36:57] Speaker 1: Because the offenders are trying to target victims that they
[37:01] Speaker 1: think they can get.
[37:01] Speaker 2: Over the top of.
[37:02] Speaker 1: 100%.
[37:02] Speaker 2: There was a really interesting study done, pretty sure it
[37:04] Speaker 2: was done at Long Bay Prison many, many years ago.
[37:06] Speaker 2: And amongst a whole lot of other things, they had
[37:09] Speaker 2: a group of– convicted sex offenders. And they were running
[37:14] Speaker 2: all these different sort of scenarios with them. And one
[37:17] Speaker 2: of the things that they did, and I used to
[37:19] Speaker 2: do this as part of my presentation, is individually they
[37:23] Speaker 2: brought these offenders into a room and they had, let's say,
[37:26] Speaker 2: I don't know, seven or eight black and white photographs
[37:29] Speaker 2: of women depicted. You know, just women walking or doing whatever.
[37:35] Speaker 2: And each one had a number above it. And the
[37:37] Speaker 2: offender was brought in, he was asked to look at
[37:39] Speaker 2: the photographs and The question was asked is when you
[37:43] Speaker 2: were out and were doing what you were doing, which
[37:45] Speaker 2: one of these women would you have selected?
[37:47] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[37:48] Speaker 2: Every offender picked the same photo. Yeah. And every offender
[37:51] Speaker 2: gave the same reason. You just highlighted it. When they
[37:54] Speaker 2: were asked, why did you pick that? They saw she
[37:56] Speaker 2: looks scared. She looks frightened. She'd be an easy target.
[37:59] Speaker 2: You know, she, she, she wouldn't offer any resistance.
[38:02] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[38:02] Speaker 2: Now that that's in no way a criticism of people
[38:05] Speaker 2: who are targeted. It's just giving an insight as to
[38:08] Speaker 2: what the offender thinks when he targets you. See, I
[38:11] Speaker 2: see that as a weakness in the offender. But these
[38:15] Speaker 2: offenders are depicted on TV, Netflix stand, big, strong, powerful individuals.
[38:21] Speaker 2: The average size sex offender, serial sex offender in the
[38:23] Speaker 2: prison system is a tiny sort of wizened up, sort
[38:27] Speaker 2: of terrified of his own shadow type of individual. And
[38:32] Speaker 2: so the Hollywood depiction, which creates the conditioning, plays into
[38:37] Speaker 2: the the idea that these are big, strong, powerful individuals.
[38:42] Speaker 2: And the worst thing you could ever do as a
[38:44] Speaker 2: woman targeted by them is to challenge that.
[38:47] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[38:47] Speaker 2: Well, they're not big, strong, powerful individuals. They're weak, insipid, frightened.
[38:52] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[38:52] Speaker 2: They're doing what they're doing to try and make up
[38:54] Speaker 2: for a lifelong perception of inadequacy.
[38:56] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[38:57] Speaker 2: So they, it's, it's like, it's like make sexual harassment.
[39:01] Speaker 2: I've got 30 odd corporate clients. I go and I
[39:03] Speaker 2: do a whole lot of talk. Um, We know this.
[39:06] Speaker 2: The bloke in the workplace who makes snide sexual comment to, say,
[39:11] Speaker 2: the new young female staff member, if she stands up
[39:14] Speaker 2: to him and gets in his face, he'll never do
[39:16] Speaker 2: it again. He'll back away. We sit in the pub,
[39:19] Speaker 2: the idiot who the young woman walks past and some
[39:23] Speaker 2: bloke makes some stupid comment towards her. She stops, turns around,
[39:28] Speaker 2: what was that you said? You want to say that again?
[39:31] Speaker 2: And he backs away. He suddenly loses all his credibility.
[39:35] Speaker 2: It's that same mindset. And I'm not saying it's right, wrong,
[39:38] Speaker 2: or indifferent. And I'm just saying that's what you're dealing
[39:41] Speaker 2: with when we're talking about sex crimes. And the idea.
[39:48] Speaker 2: There's some really interesting studies done by the FBI that–
[39:51] Speaker 2: because there's always been this argument that tragically in these–
[39:56] Speaker 2: and these are very, very rare cases. Girls and women
[40:00] Speaker 2: who fight back against unarmed serial sex offenders will get
[40:03] Speaker 2: hurt more than those who don't. So that was a subject–
[40:05] Speaker 2: has been subject to many, many studies. That was found
[40:08] Speaker 2: to be quite mythical. They found– the FBI found that
[40:11] Speaker 2: the major contributing factor– that determines the amount of violence
[40:15] Speaker 2: inflicted upon a victim of that type of crime is
[40:18] Speaker 2: the amount of time the offender can stay with the victim.
[40:22] Speaker 1: Right. That's interesting.
[40:22] Speaker 2: The longer they are there, the greater the violence becomes.
[40:26] Speaker 2: So what makes them stay longer? A feeling that they're
[40:29] Speaker 2: not going to get caught. They're in control. You know,
[40:31] Speaker 2: so again, when we break it all down, it sort
[40:36] Speaker 2: of makes a lot of sense, but it only makes
[40:38] Speaker 2: sense when you go all the way back and understand
[40:40] Speaker 2: the mindset of that offender. I often Used to say
[40:43] Speaker 2: to the girls, you know, using the card, bloke in
[40:46] Speaker 2: the car is an analogy. If he saw you, if
[40:49] Speaker 2: he had a crystal ball on the dashboard of his
[40:52] Speaker 2: car and he could see into the future and he
[40:55] Speaker 2: saw that when he stopped his car, jumped out and
[40:57] Speaker 2: grabbed you, that you would yell, scream, run, physically fight back.
[41:02] Speaker 2: Every single sex offender I have ever profiled would keep driving.
[41:07] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[41:08] Speaker 2: Every one of them. But he doesn't have that crystal ball.
[41:10] Speaker 2: He has in his mind a belief that he's going
[41:13] Speaker 2: to succeed here. And they're usually right because that's the
[41:17] Speaker 2: reaction that they usually get because this conditioning is very,
[41:20] Speaker 2: very strong.
[41:21] Speaker 1: It very much is conditioned. And when you talk about
[41:24] Speaker 1: the statistically– in situations if people are fighting back, the
[41:29] Speaker 1: injuries or the violence is not escalated. It escalates if
[41:34] Speaker 1: the longer they spend. It is.
[41:35] Speaker 2: And I'd often get, and I really enjoyed getting these questions.
[41:39] Speaker 2: When you talk to students about this, you're taking them
[41:41] Speaker 2: into an area they've never been into before. And they're
[41:43] Speaker 2: really genuinely going, I've never heard this before. And then
[41:47] Speaker 2: you'd get questions hanging onto some of that conditioning. And
[41:51] Speaker 2: they'd say, oh, but I've been told if someone's trying
[41:53] Speaker 2: to drag you into a car, to take you somewhere
[41:56] Speaker 2: to literally, you know, do something horrendous to you. Yeah.
[42:00] Speaker 2: Don't do anything because it could get worse. And I'd say,
[42:05] Speaker 2: worse than what? We're at the can't get any worse basket.
[42:10] Speaker 2: We've arrived there. But this was questions from young women.
[42:14] Speaker 2: And great questions because they're saying, but if you're dragged
[42:18] Speaker 2: into a car by someone who's going to take you
[42:20] Speaker 2: somewhere isolated and commit horrendous crimes against you and don't
[42:25] Speaker 2: do anything to stop that because it could get worse.
[42:27] Speaker 1: Well, I think the fact that you're backing your opinions
[42:30] Speaker 1: up with the research is important. Yeah. Because I would imagine,
[42:34] Speaker 1: and I'll ask you, have you ever had pushback when
[42:37] Speaker 1: you deliver this type of message?
[42:39] Speaker 2: Oh, 100%.
[42:40] Speaker 1: Why are you telling the women that they've got to defend,
[42:43] Speaker 1: why should they have to defend themselves? Yeah, yeah. But again,
[42:45] Speaker 1: we keep coming back, this is not victim blaming.
[42:47] Speaker 2: Yeah.
[42:48] Speaker 1: This is just understanding this world that we live in. Yes.
[42:51] Speaker 2: I understand that and I get what that means. but
[42:54] Speaker 2: I've always felt strongly enough that, well, what I'm doing
[42:58] Speaker 2: is important. Um, I don't get that message from those
[43:02] Speaker 2: who have attended my seminars and come out of them.
[43:04] Speaker 2: And yeah, I'm a male and yeah, I'm an ex-cop
[43:06] Speaker 2: or I can't change that.
[43:07] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[43:08] Speaker 2: But, and I don't say that I do this better
[43:11] Speaker 2: than anyone else. I just probably have done it over
[43:13] Speaker 2: the years differently. And, um, And often, for example, in
[43:17] Speaker 2: co-ed schools, I ask most co-ed schools that I go into,
[43:20] Speaker 2: I ask them to bring the boys and the girls
[43:22] Speaker 2: in together for the talk that I do on sexual crime.
[43:26] Speaker 2: Because it's good for the boys to hear this in
[43:28] Speaker 2: the presence of the girls and vice versa. So those
[43:33] Speaker 2: talks that I'm doing more commonly now are very focused
[43:37] Speaker 2: on education around consent, what consent is. We can talk
[43:40] Speaker 2: a bit more about that. Breaking it down, definitions around
[43:44] Speaker 2: what's sexual assault mean, what does sexual intercourse mean, and
[43:47] Speaker 2: all that type of thing. So I guess one thing
[43:49] Speaker 2: that the talks that I do have sort of evolved
[43:52] Speaker 2: to has been more a seminar presentation around legal terminology,
[43:59] Speaker 2: understanding where the lines are, what the consequences are, where
[44:04] Speaker 2: people can lay charges. And the interesting thing that comes
[44:07] Speaker 2: out of that is I would say 80 to 90%
[44:13] Speaker 2: of young women who come forward after my seminars to
[44:16] Speaker 2: tell me they've been subjected to a sexual offense.
[44:18] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[44:18] Speaker 2: Tell me that they didn't know that what happened to the,
[44:21] Speaker 2: was a sexual offense or what the offense was prior
[44:23] Speaker 2: to coming into the seminar.
[44:25] Speaker 1: And, and that's because of the legal definition is different
[44:28] Speaker 1: from what they get taught in the biology class or.
[44:30] Speaker 1: A hundred percent.
[44:31] Speaker 2: A hundred percent. And everyone has a, a, a good
[44:35] Speaker 2: sort of grasp or familiarity with terminology. Like for example,
[44:39] Speaker 2: like consent.
[44:39] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[44:40] Speaker 2: If, Two people want to have an intimate exchange. One initiates,
[44:44] Speaker 2: the other one has to consent. That's pretty basic. But
[44:47] Speaker 2: when you peel the onion on that, and even at
[44:50] Speaker 2: university lectures, if you peel the onion on that and
[44:53] Speaker 2: I say, okay, so if an intimate exchange requires consent,
[44:56] Speaker 2: tell me what consent is. Because it's a legal construct.
[45:01] Speaker 2: It comes out of the Crimes Act. And yes, of course,
[45:04] Speaker 2: of course, there is room. In schools to have moral
[45:08] Speaker 2: and ethical discussions around consent and around relationships, 100%. But
[45:12] Speaker 2: that's not the space that I occupy. I talk about
[45:16] Speaker 2: what it means legally. And so the students can understand
[45:19] Speaker 2: the law and then run situations through it. And so
[45:24] Speaker 2: when you ask students to tell you what consent means, respectfully,
[45:27] Speaker 2: most of them don't know. Look, most people our age
[45:30] Speaker 2: would struggle to accurately define how consent's defined in the
[45:34] Speaker 2: Crimes Act.
[45:35] Speaker 1: Yeah, well, it becomes, and quite often you see matters
[45:39] Speaker 1: running through the court on the sexual nature and it
[45:42] Speaker 1: invariably comes down to consent.
[45:44] Speaker 2: Yeah, 100%. And even the term sexual intercourse.
[45:47] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[45:48] Speaker 2: Everyone knows the biological definition.
[45:50] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[45:51] Speaker 2: A lot of people aren't even aware that there is
[45:53] Speaker 2: a totally different legal definition, let alone what it is.
[45:57] Speaker 2: So most young women that I speak to who have been,
[46:01] Speaker 2: God forbid, subjected to sexual intercourse without consent will be
[46:06] Speaker 2: told by friends that they seek advice from that they
[46:08] Speaker 2: haven't been. Yeah. And the fundamental thing I see there
[46:14] Speaker 2: is friends, well-meaning friends with good intent, but they're 16, 17.
[46:18] Speaker 2: They listen to this girlfriend. She tells them what happened
[46:21] Speaker 2: to her, say, at a party on the weekend, and
[46:25] Speaker 2: it involves an allegation of sexual intercourse without consent. The
[46:28] Speaker 2: friends will then run what happened through their friend through
[46:32] Speaker 2: the exceedingly narrow biological definitions. Now, I go into 150
[46:37] Speaker 2: secondary schools, and the biological definition of sexual intercourse is
[46:41] Speaker 2: the same in all those schools, the same in all
[46:43] Speaker 2: those textbooks. It's very narrow. Biology defines sexual intercourse can
[46:46] Speaker 2: only occur through penile penetration for procreation. That's fine. I
[46:50] Speaker 2: don't have a problem with that. But lay that alongside
[46:53] Speaker 2: the legal definition, and there's absolutely no comparison. So when
[46:59] Speaker 2: young people hear, no, no, under the law, you want
[47:02] Speaker 2: to quote Section 61, New South Wales Crimes Act, Sexual
[47:05] Speaker 2: intercourse legally is penetration to a sexual area with anything
[47:09] Speaker 2: at all. Yeah. Any part of a person's body used
[47:12] Speaker 2: for penetration, anything held or manipulated. And then it goes further.
[47:16] Speaker 2: Sexual intercourse includes the act of performing oral sex.
[47:19] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[47:19] Speaker 2: Now, you drop that into a seminar with 200 16
[47:23] Speaker 2: and 17-year-olds.
[47:23] Speaker 1: Yeah. Just that.
[47:25] Speaker 2: And they're like going, oh, hang on. This is totally
[47:29] Speaker 2: different to what I thought.
[47:30] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[47:31] Speaker 2: And when we look again at research for the young
[47:34] Speaker 2: people that I present my seminars to, if we look
[47:36] Speaker 2: at intercourse without consent, number one most common form of
[47:40] Speaker 2: sexual intercourse without consent committed against young women 15 to 21,
[47:44] Speaker 2: that's the high-risk age group, is is a young woman
[47:47] Speaker 2: penetrated sexually by a guy using his fingers.
[47:50] Speaker 1: Digital penetration.
[47:51] Speaker 2: Digital penetration.
[47:52] Speaker 1: And I could imagine how that gets confused in the
[47:55] Speaker 1: talk around the schoolyard. 100%. Look, he didn't rape me.
[47:59] Speaker 1: Even the word rape is something that we don't use
[48:01] Speaker 1: in New South Wales.
[48:02] Speaker 2: The word rape was thrown out of the Crimes Act
[48:04] Speaker 2: in 1981. So circling back around, when I go into schools,
[48:09] Speaker 2: what I think is really important for the students I'm
[48:12] Speaker 2: talking to, males and females, is that they walk away
[48:15] Speaker 2: with real clarity about what consent is, what sexual assault is,
[48:19] Speaker 2: what unlawful sexual touching means. Goodness me. Unlawful sexual touching
[48:24] Speaker 2: is a term that most people don't even know exists.
[48:26] Speaker 2: It is one of the most common disclosures I get.
[48:29] Speaker 2: It's one of the most common forms of sexual crime
[48:31] Speaker 2: committed at co-ed high schools.
[48:33] Speaker 1: Yeah. But if they're following the terminology that's widely accepted
[48:38] Speaker 1: in the community, they're not even aware that they've been
[48:40] Speaker 1: sexually assaulted. No.
[48:43] Speaker 2: If you touch a person to a sexual area in
[48:46] Speaker 2: New South Wales without their consent, well, that's unlawful sexual touching.
[48:50] Speaker 2: And nowadays they used to call it indecent assault.
[48:51] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[48:51] Speaker 2: It changed the name and that carries five years imprisonment. Now,
[48:56] Speaker 2: when you see that occurring in environments where there's a
[48:59] Speaker 2: lot of young people, almost without exception- The person who
[49:03] Speaker 2: comes forward to tell me about that says, I had
[49:06] Speaker 2: absolutely no idea that that was even a crime. Yeah.
[49:10] Speaker 2: They talk to each other about it. And I say,
[49:13] Speaker 2: and so you'll have a bit of a chat to them. Like,
[49:15] Speaker 2: so just to be clear, someone has done this to you.
[49:17] Speaker 1: Yes.
[49:18] Speaker 2: What have they done? Oh, well, you know, when you explain.
[49:20] Speaker 2: this crime and I give an example of what unlawful
[49:23] Speaker 2: sexual touching is, it would be me touching another person
[49:26] Speaker 2: to a sexual area, just touching without consent. So if
[49:28] Speaker 2: that's a female breasts between the legs, even backside, outside clothing,
[49:32] Speaker 2: inside clothing, that's unlawful sexual touching, making someone touch me
[49:36] Speaker 2: sexually without consent. So as a male between the legs
[49:39] Speaker 2: over clothing, I Rubbing against someone sexually is unlawful sexual touching.
[49:44] Speaker 2: I have students come up to me and say, I've
[49:46] Speaker 2: had all of that happen to me, but I had
[49:49] Speaker 2: no idea until 10 minutes ago. It's happened sort of repeatedly,
[49:54] Speaker 2: and then you'll say, well, the person who's done it
[49:57] Speaker 2: to you, do you know if they do it to
[49:58] Speaker 2: anyone else? Yeah, does it to all these, you know?
[50:01] Speaker 2: And then you go even further with that, and you
[50:05] Speaker 2: and I know the person who does that stuff It's
[50:09] Speaker 2: just a laugh. It's no big deal. It's like, well,
[50:12] Speaker 2: it's a criminal offense.
[50:13] Speaker 1: And that's the messaging that not just for the victim,
[50:17] Speaker 1: we need to get that across to the perpetrator.
[50:20] Speaker 2: Yeah, and when I talk to the boys, I talk
[50:23] Speaker 2: to the boys about a whole range of things. But
[50:24] Speaker 2: these are the things that I talk about. And I say,
[50:28] Speaker 2: you need to be very, very cautious that what you
[50:32] Speaker 2: consider to be behavior, which is not a big deal,
[50:36] Speaker 2: mildly amusing and I get a few taps on the
[50:38] Speaker 2: backs from my mates. In this instance, it's a criminal offence,
[50:41] Speaker 2: which is a sexual crime punishable by imprisonment.
[50:45] Speaker 1: And drumming that into them. So the victims know their
[50:47] Speaker 1: rights and the perpetrators know the consequences. I think it's
[50:54] Speaker 1: so important, the stuff that you're getting across. And it
[50:57] Speaker 1: is a misconception and we follow the media and just
[51:00] Speaker 1: society's norms, but yeah. A rape, I guarantee you, speak
[51:04] Speaker 1: to most people, they think a rape would conjure up
[51:06] Speaker 1: one image. Yes. Other than that, they wouldn't think of
[51:09] Speaker 1: all the other offences that are being committed. 100%.
[51:11] Speaker 2: And it's really interesting too, isn't it? And one of
[51:14] Speaker 2: the things I'll do with students in my talk is
[51:17] Speaker 2: right at the very start, I'll talk about, I'll break
[51:21] Speaker 2: down some gender risk profiling for them, which is interesting
[51:23] Speaker 2: for them to hear, where I'll say, if I'm talking to, say,
[51:26] Speaker 2: let's say a co-ed group, 200 students, year 10 or
[51:29] Speaker 2: year 11. I'm mindful of the fact that my content
[51:32] Speaker 2: lands differently for different folks. And that's not always on
[51:35] Speaker 2: a gender line. But I always give a heads up
[51:39] Speaker 2: warning in my talk that this content could be very
[51:41] Speaker 2: confronting if at any time you feel like you need
[51:43] Speaker 2: a bit of a breather. I'm also mindful that for
[51:47] Speaker 2: some of those young men sitting in there, in their
[51:49] Speaker 2: mind is like, hang on, why does the school think
[51:52] Speaker 2: they need to bring some ex-copper in to talk to
[51:56] Speaker 2: me about sex crimes?
[51:57] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[51:59] Speaker 2: Do they assume I'm running around? My take on that
[52:02] Speaker 2: is the same as the motivation behind me sharing this
[52:06] Speaker 2: information with my son when he was younger. It's not
[52:08] Speaker 2: because I think you're going to do it. It's because
[52:10] Speaker 2: I think you're entitled to this knowledge. And without it,
[52:13] Speaker 2: you could potentially cross the line that you don't even
[52:16] Speaker 2: know exists. And the boys are just as entitled to
[52:19] Speaker 2: this knowledge as the girls. And one thing I say
[52:22] Speaker 2: to the boys is, sitting here in my talk, let's
[52:25] Speaker 2: say year 11, you're at a very low risk to
[52:28] Speaker 2: be targeted for a sexual crime because of your age.
[52:31] Speaker 2: Now you're sort of singing to the choir a bit there,
[52:32] Speaker 2: but it's part of saying to the boys, that's not
[52:36] Speaker 2: always been the case. Your high risk age to be
[52:38] Speaker 2: targeted for sexual crime was back at primary school. Now
[52:41] Speaker 2: this doesn't mean girls can't be targeted at primary school. Tragically,
[52:45] Speaker 2: of course they can be, but I'm just talking to
[52:46] Speaker 2: the boys. So I'll say, boys, if I was doing
[52:49] Speaker 2: this talk to 200 year three, year four, year five students,
[52:53] Speaker 2: the young boys in that audience are in the highest
[52:55] Speaker 2: risk age group to be targeted for a sexual offense.
[52:58] Speaker 2: Then if we peel the onion on that, the profile
[53:01] Speaker 2: of the offender who will usually commit that offense is
[53:03] Speaker 2: as an adult male in a position of care or control.
[53:06] Speaker 2: So this covers a fair bit of ground for the
[53:09] Speaker 2: kids too. And you can say to them, so what
[53:13] Speaker 2: we know about sexual crime is it can be male
[53:15] Speaker 2: to female, it can be female to male, it can
[53:18] Speaker 2: be male to male, it can be female to female.
[53:20] Speaker 2: But the law is blind to that. It doesn't treat
[53:23] Speaker 2: one ingredient any more heavily than the other. I said,
[53:25] Speaker 2: if you roll back, if you look at, if you
[53:28] Speaker 2: speak to, um, say police that work in general sex
[53:31] Speaker 2: crime investigation, it's primarily male to female. When you speak
[53:36] Speaker 2: to police who work in child protection and child sex crime,
[53:39] Speaker 2: they pick up a lot of male to male investigations
[53:42] Speaker 2: because they're working on behalf of those little fellas. So
[53:45] Speaker 2: I said, but when those little guys are in year
[53:47] Speaker 2: 11 coming into my talk, you're at low risk. Then
[53:50] Speaker 2: I talk about the girls. So boys, let's put you
[53:52] Speaker 2: on the shelf for a moment.
[53:53] Speaker 1: The girls are at the higher risk at that stage.
[53:54] Speaker 2: Yeah, for the young women, high risk age 15 to 21.
[53:58] Speaker 2: So all the girls I speak to are in the
[53:59] Speaker 2: high risk age, and they're quite confronted to hear how
[54:02] Speaker 2: high that risk is. And Australia has amongst the highest
[54:05] Speaker 2: sexual crime rate of any surveyed country in the Western world.
[54:09] Speaker 2: And most recognised reputable studies in Australia, if you ask
[54:14] Speaker 2: what is the high risk age for girls and women,
[54:16] Speaker 2: 15 to 21. Most big studies would say for every
[54:21] Speaker 2: 100 young women I present to in that age group,
[54:24] Speaker 2: up to 25 of them will experience some form of
[54:26] Speaker 2: sexual crime in that six-year time frame. Now, that's not
[54:28] Speaker 2: always at the top end of that sexual crime spectrum.
[54:30] Speaker 2: It's some of this other stuff as well. But that's 25%
[54:33] Speaker 2: of our female population.
[54:35] Speaker 1: Frightening statistic.
[54:36] Speaker 2: If you peel the onion on that again and you ask,
[54:38] Speaker 2: because I'll ask this, kids ask this, well, who's most
[54:41] Speaker 2: likely to commit a sexual offense against a young woman,
[54:45] Speaker 2: young girl in year 11? It's not a stranger.
[54:47] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[54:47] Speaker 2: It's a young bloke, similar age, around their same year group,
[54:50] Speaker 2: who they know socially, who they thought they could trust.
[54:54] Speaker 2: And that's the fact. That's it. Now, that's not me
[54:57] Speaker 2: saying all young men are running around committing sex offenses.
[55:00] Speaker 2: It's me saying someone is. These statistics don't create themselves.
[55:07] Speaker 2: So just that at the start of a presentation to
[55:11] Speaker 2: young people is like, okay, we need to have a
[55:16] Speaker 2: chat about this.
[55:16] Speaker 1: Yeah. Again, it's education, but giving the education in an
[55:21] Speaker 1: area that's quite often not spoken about. And yeah, statistically,
[55:25] Speaker 1: as you're saying, young men in the early years when
[55:30] Speaker 1: they're prepubescent, they're the most likely to be most susceptible
[55:34] Speaker 1: to being victims. So yeah, all this information is handy
[55:38] Speaker 1: information to have. And that just makes people think about it.
[55:41] Speaker 1: And when I say people, the students start And I'm
[55:44] Speaker 1: sure after you finish your talk, the conversation in the schoolyard,
[55:47] Speaker 1: they'd all be talking about it. Yeah.
[55:49] Speaker 2: And you hope to, like, you know, you mentioned this before, um,
[55:51] Speaker 2: you know, not all of them, um, will have a
[55:54] Speaker 2: relationship with mums and dads that's open to that. But, um,
[55:57] Speaker 2: I get a lot of feedback from teachers in the
[56:00] Speaker 2: schools I go into whose sons or daughters at other
[56:02] Speaker 2: schools have done my talk and they come home and
[56:05] Speaker 2: they're all, all full of chat about this. I, um,
[56:09] Speaker 2: My neighbour's son is in year 12 and I presented
[56:11] Speaker 2: a seminar to him at a boys' school in Sydney
[56:13] Speaker 2: two weeks ago and she sent me a text and said,
[56:15] Speaker 2: sat at the dinner table and he just didn't stop
[56:17] Speaker 2: talking about this stuff. And she said it's really good.
[56:20] Speaker 1: Well, they have a hunger for it, don't they? They do. Yeah,
[56:24] Speaker 1: it's such a big part of their life. And so
[56:27] Speaker 1: I can imagine why they are interested. Let's take a break. Importantly,
[56:30] Speaker 1: we've talked about the messaging that you're giving to young women.
[56:34] Speaker 1: Let's talk about the messaging that we need to put
[56:37] Speaker 1: on to young men to educate them.
[56:39] Speaker 2: I'm enjoying having a chat.
[56:41] Speaker 1: Okay. Cheers.
[56:42] Speaker 2: Cheers.
[56:42] Speaker 1: Cheers.

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