# What we get wrong about youth crime: Lincoln Tarrow-Lynch Pt. 2

An episode of [I Catch Killers with Gary Jubelin](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1506667049), 22 Jun 2026, 1 h 00 min.

Audio: https://p.podderapp.com/2544644999/traffic.omny.fm/d/clips/2fb3740d-3436-44af-8cc0-a91900716aa5/5bc8c2ed-b718-4f44-beb3-ac2a005246cc/27dbe608-7494-4146-8a03-b46e00338e8e/audio.mp3?utm_source=Podcast&in_playlist=786928c3-10c1-4cef-a7bf-ac2a005246d0

What does it really take to break the cycle of crime? In Part 2 of this conversation, Gary sits down with Lincoln Tarrow-Lynch, a man caught up in crime since he was a kid, who’d spent years dealing drugs, battling ice addiction, and surviving on the fringes of society, to uncover what finally turned his life around. Lincoln opens up about his first adult prison sentence, losing his mother while behind bars, and walking out of jail with nothing but a plastic bag and no support network. He shares how Rainbow Lodge, a post-release residential program in Sydney, gave him the soft landing he needed, and why without it, he's certain he'd have gone straight back into jail. Subscribe to our new Youtube channel. Follow I Catch Killers: Instagram: @icatchkillers Tiktok: @icatchkillerspodcast Facebook: @icatchkillers See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

## Transcript

[0:01] Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.
[0:05] Speaker 1: Detective sy aside of life the average person is never
[0:08] Speaker 1: exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop.
[0:11] Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years, I was catching killers.
[0:14] Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a
[0:16] Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,
[0:20] Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.
[0:23] Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories
[0:26] Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw
[0:28] Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some
[0:31] Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because
[0:34] Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.
[0:38] Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.
[0:46] Speaker 1: In part two of my chat with Lincoln Tarot Lynch,
[0:50] Speaker 1: we talk about youth crime and ways that we could
[0:52] Speaker 1: do things differently. We also delve into Lincoln's life of crime.
[0:57] Speaker 1: They always seem destined to pursue how he turned his
[1:00] Speaker 1: life around. I ask you to listen to what Lincoln
[1:04] Speaker 1: says right at the end of this episode. It's extremely
[1:07] Speaker 1: powerful and needs to be heard. Lincoln, Welcome back. Part
[1:13] Speaker 1: two of I Catch Killers. I enjoyed the enjoyed the
[1:17] Speaker 1: chat in part one, and when I say enjoy it
[1:20] Speaker 1: was a pretty heavy, heavy topic that you talk about.
[1:23] Speaker 1: You're talking about your childhood and it's certainly not a
[1:27] Speaker 1: childhood that people born into this world. You'd like to
[1:31] Speaker 1: think there's a little bit more support and love for it.
[1:35] Speaker 1: I did a podcast, as you know, with Claude robertson
[1:38] Speaker 1: the other day and Vince Early, and there was an
[1:42] Speaker 1: article that came out on the back of that podcast
[1:46] Speaker 1: and talking about Claude and Vince. You know them both
[1:49] Speaker 1: well and you've got to know me and just some
[1:53] Speaker 1: our views on crime, and there was a narrative because
[1:56] Speaker 1: we touched on youth crime like we did in part
[1:59] Speaker 1: one a discussion with you, and there was some feedback
[2:03] Speaker 1: from the public that, yeah, you've got to get tougher
[2:06] Speaker 1: on kids. The parents should be responsible, and that seemed
[2:11] Speaker 1: to be a real push on the on the feedback
[2:15] Speaker 1: parents are responsible for their actions on their kids. In
[2:19] Speaker 1: an ideal world, we'd like that to be, but I
[2:22] Speaker 1: think you're an example that your parents weren't the type
[2:26] Speaker 1: that could be responsible for raising the child. So what
[2:30] Speaker 1: do you what do you say the people that go
[2:32] Speaker 1: all it's that's the parents responsibility.
[2:35] Speaker 2: And I think that that's it's kind of fair enough,
[2:38] Speaker 2: and it's an easy assumption to make. And I think
[2:41] Speaker 2: a lot of the assumptions you make off the bat
[2:43] Speaker 2: are really easy to make, you know, And that's that
[2:46] Speaker 2: is one of them, which is like, oh, well, children
[2:49] Speaker 2: are kind of like their parents are responsible for them.
[2:52] Speaker 2: They've got bad behavior, it's a parent's fault. And that
[2:56] Speaker 2: might be the case, But what if the parents themselves
[2:59] Speaker 2: have got their own issues going on, and maybe they're
[3:02] Speaker 2: not able to be as responsible as they would like
[3:05] Speaker 2: to be as well, and they've ended up being parents,
[3:09] Speaker 2: and maybe they don't have the skills, all the skills
[3:12] Speaker 2: to raise the children in a way that that kid's
[3:16] Speaker 2: not going to get into trouble. And it doesn't mean
[3:18] Speaker 2: that they don't have the ability to do it. And
[3:20] Speaker 2: maybe that that and not maybe, but that is part
[3:23] Speaker 2: of where the care that that child needs. And we're
[3:26] Speaker 2: talking about the wrap around service, and for a lot
[3:29] Speaker 2: of these kids, that wrap around service includes their family
[3:31] Speaker 2: as well. Yeah, you know, and so maybe, you know,
[3:35] Speaker 2: part of it is also helping the parents.
[3:37] Speaker 1: Helping the parents exactly to help themselves exactly.
[3:40] Speaker 2: So they can actually do that, and because that's the
[3:42] Speaker 2: ideal situation, is that the child gets to stay with
[3:45] Speaker 2: their parents and they get to have a relationship with
[3:48] Speaker 2: their parents, and their parents get to have a relationship
[3:50] Speaker 2: with them, and they can be a support network for
[3:54] Speaker 2: each other like they're meant to be, and that's going
[3:57] Speaker 2: to be a big part of helping that child not
[4:00] Speaker 2: keep getting into trouble and not end up being a
[4:04] Speaker 2: threat to their community and going to prison and this
[4:07] Speaker 2: cycle continuing.
[4:09] Speaker 1: It makes sense, but it's with the narrative that the
[4:12] Speaker 1: parents should be responsible. It's a bit of a simplistic
[4:15] Speaker 1: and naive. It is view. It is I can see
[4:18] Speaker 1: that from being a police officer. You can see that
[4:20] Speaker 1: from living the life that you were grown up in.
[4:24] Speaker 1: It's not that it's not an ideal world. And sometimes
[4:27] Speaker 1: the parents aren't aren't being to support.
[4:29] Speaker 2: The children, and even some parents maybe it's not necessarily
[4:33] Speaker 2: their fault, and there's other stuff going on with that child,
[4:36] Speaker 2: like maybe the child's had something that's happened to them
[4:39] Speaker 2: outside of the home that's got them in this having
[4:42] Speaker 2: these kind of behaviors and the parents and it's not
[4:44] Speaker 2: the parents fault, and the parents don't know what to do,
[4:46] Speaker 2: and there's plenty of them, Like there was plenty of
[4:48] Speaker 2: kids when I was homeless as a young person, and
[4:52] Speaker 2: they had a good home, yeah, you know, but there
[4:54] Speaker 2: was other stuff going on for them that forced them out,
[4:57] Speaker 2: you know. And even in terms of we're talking about
[5:00] Speaker 2: like maybe queer kids that have been forced out of home,
[5:04] Speaker 2: that's a perfect opportunity to be talking to the parents
[5:07] Speaker 2: and for someone from maybe their community to help them,
[5:10] Speaker 2: you know, understand what's going on with their child and
[5:13] Speaker 2: help them keep that relationship and keep them either if
[5:16] Speaker 2: not at home, at least have a have a healthier relationship,
[5:20] Speaker 2: because a kid with a healthy relationship with his parents
[5:23] Speaker 2: is going to be a better behave child most definitely.
[5:27] Speaker 1: I get the sense talking to you there's not you
[5:30] Speaker 1: understand that there's not a one thing fixers all, definitely,
[5:34] Speaker 1: And I think each kids an individual circumstances are agreed,
[5:40] Speaker 1: and that's that's the way we've got to got to approach.
[5:43] Speaker 2: It needs to be tailored to what to what that
[5:47] Speaker 2: child needs.
[5:49] Speaker 1: I'm going to and I did say up front, I'm
[5:51] Speaker 1: going to keep referring to your submission to the inquiry,
[5:55] Speaker 1: but I think it was so powerful. Some of the
[5:57] Speaker 1: things that were said, I just really had another quote them.
[6:00] Speaker 1: We can talk about that. But while locked up, I
[6:04] Speaker 1: did not receive a mental health assessment, counseling, or meaningful
[6:07] Speaker 1: help for planning my life after release. I was sentenced
[6:10] Speaker 1: to community service and place in the refuge. Here, I
[6:14] Speaker 1: was again assaulted by an adult I trusted. The experience
[6:17] Speaker 1: fundamentally undermined any trust I had in the support professionals,
[6:22] Speaker 1: and was kicked out of the refuge for bad behavior.
[6:25] Speaker 1: I bring you attention to the first part. I did
[6:28] Speaker 1: not receive any mental health assessment, counseling, or meaningful help
[6:31] Speaker 1: to plan a life after release. Breaking that down, how
[6:37] Speaker 1: do you think that would have helped you when you're
[6:39] Speaker 1: in detention? Youth detention.
[6:40] Speaker 2: Yeah, so that's the currently a lot of children when
[6:45] Speaker 2: they're released, I released back into whatever circumstances are in
[6:51] Speaker 2: before they went to prison.
[6:52] Speaker 1: What do we think is going to happen exactly?
[6:54] Speaker 2: You know, So if a kid in an understable home
[6:55] Speaker 2: environment or maybe not at home, or they've got a
[7:00] Speaker 2: dressed mental health issues before they go in, and then
[7:03] Speaker 2: they're just released back out, it's just it won't be
[7:05] Speaker 2: long before they're back in and the stats show it,
[7:08] Speaker 2: it's like fifty percent of kids go back, you know,
[7:11] Speaker 2: above fifty percent of kids go back. So I'm a
[7:15] Speaker 2: big fan of therapy and psychology and because you know,
[7:20] Speaker 2: it's how else are you going to change someone's behaviors
[7:23] Speaker 2: if you don't help them change the way they think?
[7:26] Speaker 2: And so I think that, you know, for helping address
[7:30] Speaker 2: the issues and the behaviors of young people, psychology has
[7:33] Speaker 2: to be a big part of it. And I also
[7:36] Speaker 2: think there needs to be not just releasing someone and
[7:39] Speaker 2: then going Okay, now we'll try and sort out the
[7:41] Speaker 2: issues after their release. These things need to happen weeks
[7:44] Speaker 2: and weeks months before their release, so that this planning
[7:47] Speaker 2: needs to start beforehand. And I know there are some
[7:50] Speaker 2: services that do that and they've got really amazing, amazing results,
[7:55] Speaker 2: you know. So it's like twelve weeks before release they
[7:59] Speaker 2: start like, look at supporting this child and working out
[8:02] Speaker 2: what they can do to prevent them going back in.
[8:05] Speaker 1: That's an important thing because I could imagine I can
[8:08] Speaker 1: just see how the system would work. They'd everyone would
[8:11] Speaker 1: be giving themselves a pat on the back that when
[8:14] Speaker 1: Lincoln's released, he's going to have to see someone and
[8:17] Speaker 1: do this and do that right, but you're going to
[8:20] Speaker 1: have an opportunity to fall back into old habits. Yeah,
[8:23] Speaker 1: you need that sort of work done on you.
[8:27] Speaker 2: A soft re entry into society. I was thinking about
[8:31] Speaker 2: this last night and thinking for people that are listening.
[8:35] Speaker 2: If tomorrow you were exitent from wherever you're living and
[8:40] Speaker 2: from home or weaver you're living right now, but you
[8:43] Speaker 2: don't have a mobile phone with you. You've got no idea,
[8:46] Speaker 2: no money, no transport card, nothing at all except the
[8:52] Speaker 2: clothes you're wearing, and no family and no one you
[8:55] Speaker 2: can rely on that's going to help you get a home.
[8:58] Speaker 2: What are you going to do? Actually? What like really
[9:01] Speaker 2: think about it? What are you going to do? Yeah,
[9:03] Speaker 2: that's what most people leave in prison face, Like half
[9:05] Speaker 2: of people leaving prison like that, including children. It's just
[9:09] Speaker 2: a well what can you do? Like what itcedn't if
[9:12] Speaker 2: you're going.
[9:12] Speaker 1: I won't treat that there's a hypothetical question or true
[9:15] Speaker 1: that the Okay, if I was put in a position,
[9:17] Speaker 1: well you got to eat, so and if you haven't
[9:20] Speaker 1: got money, you can't can't get food from somewhere, You're
[9:24] Speaker 1: going to steal it exactly you're going to get some
[9:26] Speaker 1: money from somewhere you haven't got somewhere to sleep, or
[9:29] Speaker 1: I'd be looking at breaking into a place from somewhere
[9:31] Speaker 1: that's safe to sleep. So, yeah, I can see what
[9:35] Speaker 1: you're saying.
[9:36] Speaker 2: And you're not doing that because you're a bad person,
[9:38] Speaker 2: or you're trying to like hurt other people or take
[9:41] Speaker 2: something from someone else. You might be taking something from
[9:45] Speaker 2: someone else, but you're not doing because you want to
[9:46] Speaker 2: take something from someone else. You're doing because you're trying
[9:49] Speaker 2: to survive. Yeah, you know, And that's the position we
[9:52] Speaker 2: put a lot of a lot of people in and
[9:54] Speaker 2: then wonder why a few months later in prison. That's
[9:59] Speaker 2: kind of it's maddening.
[10:03] Speaker 1: It is strange, but I think the way that people
[10:06] Speaker 1: look at it and look, I've got to put my
[10:08] Speaker 1: hand up here as well. The more I've been out
[10:11] Speaker 1: of the police and sitting down speaking to people like yourself,
[10:14] Speaker 1: because I didn't have the opportunity to do that as
[10:16] Speaker 1: much in the police, it's opened my eyes up to
[10:20] Speaker 1: how hard it is. I always thought, you know, someone
[10:24] Speaker 1: that put away when they get out of jail and yeah,
[10:26] Speaker 1: well they've done their time. Hopefully they'll turn it round.
[10:29] Speaker 1: But it won't surprise me when they go back in
[10:31] Speaker 1: or locking them up again.
[10:33] Speaker 2: And you think other person's like, they've probably stopped using
[10:36] Speaker 2: drugs while they're in prison, They've got a good opportunity,
[10:39] Speaker 2: they look well fared. We've done something good for them.
[10:42] Speaker 2: That's a circuit breaker. Yeah, it kind of looks like that.
[10:46] Speaker 1: It's crazy your adult adult life. So when did you
[10:51] Speaker 1: first hit the adult prisons first time?
[10:54] Speaker 2: I was thirty yep, as an adult.
[10:57] Speaker 1: So how are you surviving between the.
[11:00] Speaker 2: Teams and things. I was mostly selling drugs, So most
[11:04] Speaker 2: of that time it was selling pot, pot and MDMA,
[11:08] Speaker 2: that kind of thing. Like at the time, I considered
[11:10] Speaker 2: like softer kind of drugs, you know, And I guess
[11:12] Speaker 2: pot is in some ways of softer kind of drugs. Yeah.
[11:16] Speaker 2: And I sold like enough of that just to kind
[11:19] Speaker 2: of get by, pay my bills and do what I
[11:23] Speaker 2: needed to do. I wasn't trying to like live some
[11:25] Speaker 2: kind of super luxurious life or bring much attention on myself. Yeah,
[11:30] Speaker 2: and I think that's why I evaded trouble for so long.
[11:34] Speaker 1: Did you form a network of family, friends or relationships not?
[11:38] Speaker 2: Not really. I definitely struggled with that. Yeah, so from
[11:44] Speaker 2: you know, everything that happened growing up, I found it
[11:47] Speaker 2: very very difficult to form meaningful relationships with anyone, especially
[11:51] Speaker 2: friendships and that kind of thing. Like most friendships are
[11:55] Speaker 2: even if they were good ones, I would push them away.
[11:58] Speaker 2: Most relationships with like intimate partners were also like really
[12:05] Speaker 2: very unhealthy, right, There's a lot going on there as well,
[12:09] Speaker 2: and a lot of them were based around drug dealing
[12:11] Speaker 2: and that kind of stuff. And then when you've got
[12:13] Speaker 2: a transactional relationship with a partner, it's not going to
[12:16] Speaker 2: be going to be a healthy relationship.
[12:20] Speaker 1: Did you like your mental health and the way you
[12:25] Speaker 1: were looking at the world. We're still carrying anger and
[12:27] Speaker 1: resentment and the fact that I know you now and
[12:32] Speaker 1: I was so impressed when I heard you talk with
[12:35] Speaker 1: that function at Rainbow Lodge that did you think you
[12:39] Speaker 1: will get into amount to anything at this period of
[12:42] Speaker 1: time we're talking.
[12:43] Speaker 2: Yeah, like twenties days. At some point I would have, like,
[12:50] Speaker 2: you know, maybe thoughts that were grandiose thoughts even and
[12:56] Speaker 2: other times felt like I would absolutely amount to nothing
[12:59] Speaker 2: at all, you know. And in terms of anger, I
[13:01] Speaker 2: was definitely angry, and my temper was like nothing else,
[13:06] Speaker 2: you know, like the amount of times I've jumped out
[13:09] Speaker 2: of the car with a baseball bat or a MACHETI
[13:11] Speaker 2: and you know, like ticking time absolutely, yeah, you know,
[13:15] Speaker 2: like multiple times had my girlfriend just screaming at me
[13:18] Speaker 2: to stop whatever I was doing because I've just gone
[13:21] Speaker 2: and just started smashing someone's car apart because they've stopped
[13:26] Speaker 2: too quickly in front of me and you know, on
[13:28] Speaker 2: the road or something. You know, just completely completely wild.
[13:32] Speaker 1: I know the type of person. It is, a ticking time.
[13:36] Speaker 1: I was like that, Yeah, it was sooner or later
[13:40] Speaker 1: you were going to end up in prison.
[13:42] Speaker 2: Yeah, I was just I can't believe it. It took
[13:44] Speaker 2: so long, I was. Yeah, you know, I don't know
[13:47] Speaker 2: how how I got away with it. There was so
[13:50] Speaker 2: many close encounters, you know.
[13:52] Speaker 1: I'm thinking of the attitude that you would have would
[13:55] Speaker 1: have had made me so many clothes to avoid it.
[13:58] Speaker 2: I'd often talked my way out of it, to be honest. Yeah,
[14:01] Speaker 2: I've been pulled over with guns in the car and
[14:04] Speaker 2: big amounts of drugs in the car and just talked
[14:06] Speaker 2: and talked.
[14:06] Speaker 1: And talking to stop the cop even though anyway, search
[14:12] Speaker 1: have a.
[14:12] Speaker 2: Good day and just kind of redirecting, Okay, well, let's help.
[14:16] Speaker 1: Let's a skill. Yeah, I can can imagine. Okay, well,
[14:22] Speaker 1: even with your charm and your skills are negotiating eventually,
[14:27] Speaker 1: got your tell us, tell us what happened there?
[14:31] Speaker 2: Yeah. Sure, so I'll tell you leading up to that first,
[14:33] Speaker 2: you know, because I think it's an important part of
[14:36] Speaker 2: the story. And that's not not the high life part.
[14:39] Speaker 2: It's not an important part, but i'd kind of I've
[14:43] Speaker 2: been looking for a way out of the lifestyle for
[14:46] Speaker 2: some time and the the addiction because at this point
[14:49] Speaker 2: i'd been using ice for about six years.
[14:51] Speaker 1: As well, that's what I's going to win.
[14:53] Speaker 2: Yeah. So I was nearly forty at this point, and
[14:56] Speaker 2: I've been using ice and I couldn't stop. I tried,
[15:00] Speaker 2: and I couldn't. I tried to get into rehabit I
[15:02] Speaker 2: couldn't multiple times, and I just could not see a
[15:07] Speaker 2: way out. And my lifestyle and my ability to pay
[15:12] Speaker 2: my bills and my rent was tied into dealing and
[15:16] Speaker 2: as was my addiction, and I couldn't see a way out.
[15:21] Speaker 2: And I was absolutely terrified of becoming homeless. And this
[15:25] Speaker 2: is something that even that stuck with me as an adult,
[15:28] Speaker 2: this thought of like what if I end up homeless again,
[15:31] Speaker 2: which it is fair enough to be terrified of being homeless.
[15:34] Speaker 2: But yeah, I was living in this beautiful apartment, Meriton
[15:38] Speaker 2: apartment in the city with a view all the way
[15:41] Speaker 2: up and down the coast, really luxurious lifestyle. At this point,
[15:45] Speaker 2: I'd kind of decided I was going to like knuckle
[15:47] Speaker 2: down and kind of sell more than I had been
[15:51] Speaker 2: and try and retire. And the idea was like, make
[15:54] Speaker 2: a bit a decent chunk of money, move overseas, detox,
[15:59] Speaker 2: get on with my life, you know.
[16:00] Speaker 1: Live like a citizen.
[16:01] Speaker 2: Yeah. I never would have worked. You know, looking back,
[16:05] Speaker 2: I would have ended up back doing what I was doing,
[16:07] Speaker 2: because there'd be no reason not to know. But that's
[16:10] Speaker 2: the way I thought at the time. But I was like,
[16:13] Speaker 2: even though I had this like really from the outside,
[16:17] Speaker 2: really amazing lifestyle, it seemed like I had everything I wanted,
[16:22] Speaker 2: hundreds of thousands of dollars, you know, I could just
[16:24] Speaker 2: do anything I wanted it if I wanted, other than
[16:27] Speaker 2: stop using ice. Yeah, and I remember for a long time,
[16:32] Speaker 2: I'd be in the bathroom, you know, with the door
[16:35] Speaker 2: locked and no one knew, trying to find a vein
[16:38] Speaker 2: with a needle and literally just just tears dropping down,
[16:43] Speaker 2: you know, from my eyes onto the arm where I
[16:47] Speaker 2: was trying to find a vein and just hating myself
[16:51] Speaker 2: absolutely so much shame and yeah, just absolute I just
[16:55] Speaker 2: loathed myself, and I knew what I was doing was
[16:58] Speaker 2: wrong by this point in life. If I was, I'd
[17:03] Speaker 2: learned enough about who I wanted to be as a
[17:06] Speaker 2: person to know that taking part in selling the drugs
[17:09] Speaker 2: I was selling was wrong and that incongruency, and and
[17:14] Speaker 2: that knowing that I was moving in a direction that
[17:18] Speaker 2: was morally against you my values, but not being able
[17:22] Speaker 2: to stop.
[17:23] Speaker 1: Was a contrace that was evolving like it was because
[17:27] Speaker 1: it was probably wasn't vagues that were instilled in you
[17:30] Speaker 1: as a child.
[17:30] Speaker 2: It wasn't as a child, but they evolved over time. Yeah,
[17:34] Speaker 2: but my behaviors weren't in alignment and looking values in.
[17:38] Speaker 1: The mirror, trying to stick a needle in your arm
[17:41] Speaker 1: and knowing that you're dealing these drugs and you would
[17:43] Speaker 1: have just been looking at the grubby What have I
[17:45] Speaker 1: become a grubby addict?
[17:48] Speaker 2: And knowing that like the that all the money I
[17:52] Speaker 2: had was on the backs of people that were suffering.
[17:55] Speaker 1: Okay, so and I hated that because if anyone it's
[18:00] Speaker 1: been dealing drugs, I always asked, you contemplate the impact
[18:04] Speaker 1: that's had on the same your profiting off other people's briefs.
[18:07] Speaker 2: But understand I definitely did, Yeah, definitely, and that that
[18:13] Speaker 2: was a big part of what was eating me up.
[18:15] Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, yeah. So funnily enough, I was praying a
[18:21] Speaker 2: lot for a way out, yeah, you know, and the
[18:24] Speaker 2: way out wasn't the one I was praying for. So yeah,
[18:29] Speaker 2: that whole that whole thing is careful what you wish,
[18:33] Speaker 2: I can't do this anymore. Whatever helped you out, God, exactly,
[18:38] Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, it wasn't.
[18:40] Speaker 1: You thought that you're just going to get to kick
[18:41] Speaker 1: the habit? Exactly, great marafter.
[18:45] Speaker 2: Good cheap tickets or something overas like something nice to stay.
[18:49] Speaker 2: That's what I was praying for.
[18:50] Speaker 1: Prayers were hands, they were not in the way that
[18:52] Speaker 1: you expect. What happened.
[18:54] Speaker 2: So it was one morning, beautiful sunny morning January, the
[19:01] Speaker 2: sunlight pouring into the apartment of these floor to ceiling windows,
[19:04] Speaker 2: you know, and I was just getting ready to go
[19:07] Speaker 2: out and buy like a kilo of MDMA, which was
[19:10] Speaker 2: like a kind of normal thing to do on it
[19:12] Speaker 2: on an eight am in the morning, and yeah, it
[19:16] Speaker 2: was just a really nice, chill morning top of the world.
[19:20] Speaker 2: Other than the addiction stuff, but I felt good that day,
[19:22] Speaker 2: you know, and about to go out and I heard
[19:27] Speaker 2: this like muffled sound of men yelling, just this strange
[19:33] Speaker 2: sound I hadn't heard before, like lots of men yelling.
[19:36] Speaker 2: And before I had a chance to kind of work
[19:39] Speaker 2: out what that was, the door just burst in and
[19:43] Speaker 2: then the unit was just flooded with guys with automatic
[19:48] Speaker 2: rifles and tactical gear and what have you, you know,
[19:51] Speaker 2: And the next minute, yeah, there was like a dozen
[19:54] Speaker 2: a dozen police in the in the unit, and you know,
[19:57] Speaker 2: I was pinned down. My partner at the time was
[19:58] Speaker 2: pinned down. Yeah. It was a really it was a shocking,
[20:04] Speaker 2: a shocking experience. And you know, they came in and
[20:07] Speaker 2: just sort of ripped everything apart, and at the same
[20:10] Speaker 2: time they were raiding a couple of units that I had.
[20:13] Speaker 1: Okay, well, you must have really come under the under
[20:16] Speaker 1: the radar. I did come after you.
[20:18] Speaker 2: I did, And it was as far as I know
[20:23] Speaker 2: it was. There was someone that owed me some money
[20:25] Speaker 2: that I'd been dealing with for some time. We'd known
[20:27] Speaker 2: each other kind of as mate for a while and
[20:31] Speaker 2: not many people knew where I lived, and it wasn't
[20:33] Speaker 2: something I normally would people normally wouldn't know. But it
[20:37] Speaker 2: was a mistake I made. But it doesn't matter now.
[20:39] Speaker 2: But yeah, he owed me some money and I kind
[20:41] Speaker 2: of pressured him to pay that money back, right, thought
[20:45] Speaker 2: it was easier just to get rid of me.
[20:47] Speaker 1: Well, cautionary chile to a people thinking of starting a
[20:51] Speaker 1: greed deal in drugs, that is that is the way
[20:55] Speaker 1: it unravels inbearably.
[20:56] Speaker 2: And I should have listened to Mom, which was like, yeah,
[20:59] Speaker 2: in that kind of circumstance, she would have said, don't
[21:01] Speaker 2: let anyone know where you live.
[21:04] Speaker 1: If you're hearing a group of muffled men going down
[21:08] Speaker 1: all the way, you probably probably be in trouble. Look,
[21:12] Speaker 1: we're laughing at it, and I know that sort of
[21:14] Speaker 1: cheapening it that you understand the life that you're living
[21:19] Speaker 1: was not a good, good life. Yeah, it's probably you know,
[21:24] Speaker 1: if a system has worked at least if this is
[21:26] Speaker 1: the starting point of change.
[21:28] Speaker 2: So it was also like I'm laughing about it now,
[21:31] Speaker 2: but it was. It was one of the worst experiences
[21:33] Speaker 2: of my life, you know, like going back to the
[21:36] Speaker 2: cells afterwards and sitting in the cell and just realizing
[21:41] Speaker 2: that I don't know how many people have made mistakes,
[21:45] Speaker 2: big mistakes that they wish they could turn back time,
[21:48] Speaker 2: you know, and if you know that feeling, you know
[21:50] Speaker 2: that feeling you know when you've done something.
[21:51] Speaker 1: I think most of us I wish I.
[21:55] Speaker 2: Could turn back time. And that realization that there was
[21:58] Speaker 2: nothing I could do to change the course of history
[22:02] Speaker 2: and changed where the direction I was moving in is
[22:05] Speaker 2: really distressing. And you know, and I cried, and I
[22:10] Speaker 2: was in the cells, and I was like, fuck, it's
[22:13] Speaker 2: I don't know what's coming, but I know I'm going
[22:14] Speaker 2: to jail for a long time.
[22:15] Speaker 1: And you wouldn't have got bio.
[22:18] Speaker 2: Definitely not. Yeah, no, definitely not.
[22:19] Speaker 1: Okay, Yeah, And what did you end up getting charged
[22:23] Speaker 1: and convicted of?
[22:24] Speaker 2: So there's a bit over a kilo of ice, about
[22:28] Speaker 2: sixty kilos of GHB, Yeah, a couple of firearms, stampsial
[22:35] Speaker 2: amount of money.
[22:36] Speaker 1: Yeah, you're not getting weak into attention.
[22:38] Speaker 2: I'm definitely not getting weak int attention. Yeah, it was
[22:40] Speaker 2: a lot.
[22:40] Speaker 1: Yeah, what how how long did you end up getting
[22:44] Speaker 1: six years? Tell me about your prison experience.
[22:50] Speaker 2: It was like for everyone, it's tough. It's it's not
[22:55] Speaker 2: it's tough. For anyone that says it isn't is lying.
[22:58] Speaker 2: You know. Some people might get used to it in
[23:02] Speaker 2: a way, but I definitely didn't get used to it.
[23:05] Speaker 2: And a couple of years would have been easy. Yeah,
[23:09] Speaker 2: you know, I would have done that quite easily, and
[23:12] Speaker 2: I would have come out and kept doing what I
[23:13] Speaker 2: was doing, okay, you know, because it would be easy.
[23:17] Speaker 2: But six years was. Yeah, it was tough. And yeah,
[23:22] Speaker 2: realizing that the life that you have and that the
[23:26] Speaker 2: people you know and all that kind of stuff is
[23:29] Speaker 2: just literally over and realizing you've been ripped out of
[23:32] Speaker 2: that and having to come to terms with that. For me,
[23:36] Speaker 2: and this happens to a lot of people, some of
[23:39] Speaker 2: the relationships that you have come to an end while
[23:44] Speaker 2: you're in prison. And for me that was with mum,
[23:47] Speaker 2: you know. And so I actually hadn't seen her for
[23:51] Speaker 2: ten years before I went to jail, but I still
[23:55] Speaker 2: loved her, you know. But while I was in prison,
[23:57] Speaker 2: she got sick with cancer. I was able to see
[24:00] Speaker 2: her twice. In maximum security. We had very limited contact,
[24:04] Speaker 2: like we were about to hug once I'm told to
[24:07] Speaker 2: stop hugging that kind of thing.
[24:08] Speaker 1: And then that's tough. Yeah, yeah, and that made that
[24:13] Speaker 1: you're in jail, but it doesn't take away from the
[24:16] Speaker 1: human human emotions. But how tough that that is.
[24:20] Speaker 2: Yeah, and she she died a couple of years into
[24:23] Speaker 2: my sentence, and that was really tough. You know. It
[24:28] Speaker 2: was just so much unresolved stuff, you know, between us
[24:32] Speaker 2: that we never got to resolve that that we really
[24:34] Speaker 2: probably could have if we sat down and talked a bit.
[24:37] Speaker 2: And that's something I definitely regret not being able to do.
[24:40] Speaker 2: But there's not nothing I can do about that. Now.
[24:43] Speaker 1: Did you keep yourself out of trouble in prison.
[24:46] Speaker 2: For the first couple of years, I did, Yeah, well,
[24:48] Speaker 2: the first year in a bit, I did. But old
[24:51] Speaker 2: habits die hard, yeah, you know. And I saw an
[24:54] Speaker 2: opportunity to sell drugs again, yeah, you know, and had
[24:58] Speaker 2: caught big court feats to hey, you know, my legal
[25:02] Speaker 2: costs were pretty high, and yeah, it's what I knew,
[25:07] Speaker 2: and it kept me occupied and I did you know,
[25:10] Speaker 2: I sold sold different drugs for a couple of years,
[25:14] Speaker 2: ice and that kind of stuff and other drugs in jail.
[25:18] Speaker 2: They made prison much harder. Selling drugs in jail makes
[25:21] Speaker 2: life a lot harder because it just means that you're yeah,
[25:25] Speaker 2: you end up in more fights and more drama and more.
[25:28] Speaker 2: It's much more stressful than just than not doing it.
[25:32] Speaker 2: But also the time kind of goes quicker when you're high. Yeah.
[25:35] Speaker 2: So so for a couple of years, Yeah, you know,
[25:39] Speaker 2: I smoked a lot of ice and I took a
[25:40] Speaker 2: lot of drugs for a couple of years. But I'd
[25:43] Speaker 2: always and I'd known when I went in that I
[25:48] Speaker 2: was going to leave without a drug habit. And so
[25:50] Speaker 2: two years out is when I decided to stop everything
[25:53] Speaker 2: and start working towards my release. Yeah. Yeah, so just
[25:59] Speaker 2: I quit.
[26:00] Speaker 1: How hard would that be to do in that environment?
[26:04] Speaker 2: It was difficult, but I really had enough of it
[26:07] Speaker 2: by then as well. You know, obviously I didn't like
[26:10] Speaker 2: being addicted, you know, and it still went back to
[26:12] Speaker 2: those same feelings of addiction and which I didn't want.
[26:16] Speaker 2: And yeah, I also enjoy training and feeling healthy and
[26:20] Speaker 2: that kind of thing. So it was it was actually
[26:22] Speaker 2: pretty easy to stop, right, yeah, because it ultimately like
[26:26] Speaker 2: it feels better to not be addicted to anything and
[26:29] Speaker 2: to feel healthy ultimately feels better.
[26:31] Speaker 1: Yea, So six years you do the be released. Is
[26:36] Speaker 1: that where you came into contact with Rainbow Lodge?
[26:38] Speaker 2: Yeah, it sure was. Yeah, And I think this is
[26:41] Speaker 2: what when I'm when I'm talking about the people being
[26:45] Speaker 2: released into homelessness and the challenges that people that people face,
[26:50] Speaker 2: and that the real challenge. It's definitely not theoretical from
[26:53] Speaker 2: my point of view, it's something I've experienced. And yeah,
[26:57] Speaker 2: like when I left, literally left with a plastic bag,
[27:02] Speaker 2: that scenario I put to you before of no phone,
[27:05] Speaker 2: no idea, no money, the clothes you're wearing. That that's
[27:08] Speaker 2: how I left prison.
[27:10] Speaker 1: Not the support family or.
[27:13] Speaker 2: No, there was no family by then. You know, mom
[27:15] Speaker 2: had passed, my grandmother was almost passed. My sister doesn't
[27:19] Speaker 2: want a relationship with me, So yeah, there was no
[27:22] Speaker 2: there was no family to support me. But yeah, I
[27:28] Speaker 2: left not knowing what I was going to do. I've
[27:32] Speaker 2: been paroled to a Rainbow Lodge, but I didn't know
[27:34] Speaker 2: what to expect. Thankfully I went there, Okay, thankfully, Oh
[27:38] Speaker 2: my gosh. If I didn't, I was going back in.
[27:42] Speaker 1: I'm a big believer in what's done there and Rainbow Lodge.
[27:45] Speaker 1: If people that might have heard Claude robertson the program
[27:49] Speaker 1: talk about it, and by god he talks wonder if
[27:53] Speaker 1: politicians are scared of him once he's got.
[27:56] Speaker 2: Your I heard you say yesterday, maybe he should go.
[27:58] Speaker 2: Has he thought about politics? Yeah, I can see.
[27:59] Speaker 1: Yeah, I could see it too. But it's a residential
[28:03] Speaker 1: program that helps men like Lincoln here who re enter
[28:08] Speaker 1: community after prison. So tell us about that experience and
[28:11] Speaker 1: why it made a difference to you.
[28:14] Speaker 2: Sure. So, like I said, I was leaving and my
[28:18] Speaker 2: options were insecure accommodation, maybe a boarding house or something
[28:23] Speaker 2: like that, very temporary accommodation or Rainbow Lodge, which was
[28:27] Speaker 2: a potentially three months of accommodation with support. And I
[28:34] Speaker 2: didn't actually realize how important the kind of support they
[28:36] Speaker 2: were going to give me would be, you know, as
[28:39] Speaker 2: someone who hadn't really had to go to parole much
[28:42] Speaker 2: before or navigate that kind of post release responsibilities. And
[28:47] Speaker 2: also someone who'd never, you know, since I was a kid,
[28:51] Speaker 2: had to deal with having no phone or no idea
[28:53] Speaker 2: or no money because I had money in my whole
[28:55] Speaker 2: life and never really had to not have money since
[28:59] Speaker 2: I was a kid, So I was always used to
[29:01] Speaker 2: having those kind of resources and coming out and not
[29:06] Speaker 2: having any of those things that those are the kinds
[29:09] Speaker 2: of things that Rainbow Lodge does provide people and it
[29:11] Speaker 2: actually works, and you don't realize how important it is
[29:15] Speaker 2: to have someone help you get your phone connected, and
[29:20] Speaker 2: someone to go with you to a bank to help
[29:22] Speaker 2: you get a bank account.
[29:24] Speaker 1: So those little things that we do make such a
[29:26] Speaker 1: big difference.
[29:27] Speaker 2: Yeah, because just getting a bank account you need to
[29:29] Speaker 2: have you have to have emails sent to your phone,
[29:32] Speaker 2: for example, to set your account up, to set your
[29:34] Speaker 2: online banking up before your card arrives, for example, you
[29:37] Speaker 2: need ID and thankfully at Rainbow Lodge they've got relationships
[29:41] Speaker 2: with the people at the local bank, which helps it
[29:43] Speaker 2: run a bit smoother as well. But yeah, that first
[29:46] Speaker 2: couple of weeks of landing, yeah, it was about getting
[29:50] Speaker 2: to my parole appointments, getting my bank account set up,
[29:55] Speaker 2: getting a Medicare card, a healthcare card, getting center Link
[29:58] Speaker 2: sorted out so I had some kind of income.
[30:00] Speaker 1: You've got people there helping you technology. You step away
[30:06] Speaker 1: for six months, you'd be left six years. It was
[30:08] Speaker 1: six years. You have no idea what.
[30:10] Speaker 2: They're talking I didn't even know, like going to like
[30:13] Speaker 2: to pay like tap and go pay. It was different
[30:15] Speaker 2: because I hadn't really done that. I lived with cash
[30:17] Speaker 2: for such a long time as well. Yeah, and things
[30:19] Speaker 2: like that had changed so much since been in you know,
[30:22] Speaker 2: and catching public transport. I was like, watch an open card?
[30:25] Speaker 2: Why do I need an ople card? Can I just
[30:26] Speaker 2: pay when I get on it?
[30:28] Speaker 1: Okay? And like what we laugh? But you've got people
[30:31] Speaker 1: that this is probably an important point that you've got
[30:34] Speaker 1: people that there released from prison that could go either way,
[30:38] Speaker 1: and we've got this ridiculously high recidivism rate where people
[30:41] Speaker 1: go back in. I can understand coming out there, you're
[30:45] Speaker 1: carrying all the baggage from your childhood, You're carrying the
[30:48] Speaker 1: baggage from your time in prison. Anything could set you
[30:52] Speaker 1: off pretty easy. Like I could imagine just stuff this
[30:55] Speaker 1: I don't even know how to like opal card, I'm
[31:01] Speaker 1: going to jump the jump the thing. Then you'll be
[31:03] Speaker 1: arrested and before the courts.
[31:05] Speaker 2: And these little and these are the kinds of supports
[31:08] Speaker 2: they give young people coming out that the orcs that
[31:10] Speaker 2: look after young people. This is some of the stuff
[31:12] Speaker 2: they do as well. And it's such it seems so little,
[31:16] Speaker 2: but it can make it such a big difference because
[31:18] Speaker 2: for example, if I didn't go to Rainbow and I
[31:20] Speaker 2: had to try and navigate those things by myself, I
[31:23] Speaker 2: wouldn't have made my first parole appointment. Yeah, because you
[31:25] Speaker 2: have to go within forty eight hours, I'd be trying
[31:28] Speaker 2: to find something to sleep, or trying to get the
[31:31] Speaker 2: bank sordered or center. Think wouldn't be going to parole.
[31:33] Speaker 2: So just automatically breached paying.
[31:35] Speaker 1: There's a picture of what Rainbow Lodge is. It's accommodation.
[31:39] Speaker 1: You've all got to have your meals together. And it's
[31:42] Speaker 1: men that have been through what you've been through, and
[31:45] Speaker 1: so people that have walked the footsteps and cantride so talks.
[31:51] Speaker 1: You come out, you're carrying your little place bag of
[31:53] Speaker 1: worldly belongings and you rock up there. What the how
[31:56] Speaker 1: are you met?
[31:57] Speaker 2: So it's like it's this big old terrace house in Gleebe,
[32:00] Speaker 2: you know, two story terrorists in Glebe and with ten beds,
[32:05] Speaker 2: you know, eight rooms, ten beds, and yeah, you've got
[32:11] Speaker 2: a group of men from eighteen to fifties generally you know,
[32:16] Speaker 2: living there or with a high chance of reoffending. Basically,
[32:21] Speaker 2: so to be eligible that you have to have a
[32:25] Speaker 2: high something called LSR, which is like a rating that
[32:29] Speaker 2: the jail gives you when you leave that says they
[32:31] Speaker 2: think you're likely to come back.
[32:33] Speaker 1: Okay, Well that's a good testament to the Rainbow Lodge
[32:37] Speaker 1: that they're not sending people that have already decided to
[32:40] Speaker 1: go down the straight and narrow. The only ones everyone's
[32:44] Speaker 1: thinking they're going to come back. We'll see in six montes.
[32:46] Speaker 2: And that was horrible when I got that as well.
[32:48] Speaker 2: When I saw that, I thankfully I had it because
[32:51] Speaker 2: it meant I was eligible. Yeah, but when I got it,
[32:55] Speaker 2: and I felt like I had a good chance of
[32:56] Speaker 2: making it, you know, and doing something with my life.
[32:59] Speaker 2: And then says, we actually think you're coming.
[33:01] Speaker 1: Back, and what's it called.
[33:02] Speaker 2: I think it's called the l s I R or
[33:04] Speaker 2: that rating. Yeah, and they look at your behavior most
[33:10] Speaker 2: like you're coming back coming back.
[33:12] Speaker 1: Okay, So that's how you got there.
[33:13] Speaker 2: And then so and then you get there and you're
[33:16] Speaker 2: living with a group of men, and you've got quite
[33:18] Speaker 2: a lot of autonomy compared to like a rehab or
[33:21] Speaker 2: something like that, where it's very structured and very monitored, micromanaged. Here,
[33:26] Speaker 2: it's much looser than that because we're trying to teach
[33:29] Speaker 2: the guys to have autonomy but also to to live
[33:34] Speaker 2: it in a group and to reintegrate, you know, and
[33:38] Speaker 2: that and that's hopefully the goal over that three months.
[33:40] Speaker 2: That's softer landing. It's about about helping the men reintegrate
[33:45] Speaker 2: into living by themselves and not going back and.
[33:50] Speaker 1: See I would imagine teaching your social skills. And my
[33:55] Speaker 1: observation of Rainbow Lodge, what do I see? It's almost
[33:59] Speaker 1: like people want to do the right thing because it
[34:02] Speaker 1: would be shameful not to take advantage of what's on
[34:06] Speaker 1: offer there.
[34:07] Speaker 2: It's such a massive opportunity, Yeah, that people are given
[34:10] Speaker 2: when they go there, and it's it's unfortunate that there's
[34:15] Speaker 2: not more places like Rainbow Lodge.
[34:17] Speaker 1: I one hundred percent agree. And you've got the force
[34:22] Speaker 1: of nature in Claude keeps everyone in the right direction.
[34:27] Speaker 1: But little things like having a meal together. And I
[34:30] Speaker 1: suppose people could look from the outside and go, well,
[34:33] Speaker 1: what's that about? But that's learning to communicate, learning to socialize,
[34:38] Speaker 1: So you're not seeing in your room just getting angry
[34:40] Speaker 1: and confused by true.
[34:42] Speaker 2: Yeah, and so much a prison you eat by yourself
[34:44] Speaker 2: because you're locked in and they deliver the meals to
[34:47] Speaker 2: the room and you eat by yourself a lot of
[34:48] Speaker 2: the time, or maybe with one other person. Yeah, it's
[34:52] Speaker 2: a time for the guys to talk to get together
[34:54] Speaker 2: and talk to the support worker whoever's working that night.
[34:57] Speaker 2: And when I was talking about that kind of wrap
[35:00] Speaker 2: around services, and that's something Rainbow definitely provides because you know,
[35:05] Speaker 2: there's psychological services.
[35:06] Speaker 1: There, get access.
[35:09] Speaker 2: All the residents will say psychle once a week while
[35:12] Speaker 2: they're there. There's support with all those things like the
[35:15] Speaker 2: banking and all that kind of stuff I've just talked about.
[35:18] Speaker 2: For the indigenous guys, there's a lot of cultural activities
[35:20] Speaker 2: and connecting with elders and spending time on country and
[35:26] Speaker 2: people there to model like you know, good behavior and
[35:30] Speaker 2: model behavior of men as well, you know, And this
[35:34] Speaker 2: is stuff a lot of the guys and never had
[35:35] Speaker 2: an opportunity to do. And it works like it actually works.
[35:39] Speaker 2: And I was so blessed to go there. I can't
[35:44] Speaker 2: I can't imagine what my life would have been like
[35:46] Speaker 2: if I didn't have the opportunity, but I can imagine
[35:48] Speaker 2: I would have gone back in.
[35:50] Speaker 1: And so you spent three months here and where did
[35:53] Speaker 1: you go from there?
[35:54] Speaker 2: What happened fortunately for me, and a lot of the time,
[35:59] Speaker 2: the goal is to try and find the men either
[36:02] Speaker 2: semi permanent or permanent accommodation, but some kind of stable
[36:05] Speaker 2: accommodation once they leave. That's not always possible, but that
[36:09] Speaker 2: is the goal. Yeah, And I was fortunate enough to
[36:14] Speaker 2: get government housing. So I got government housing in Red Perone,
[36:18] Speaker 2: which is where I was kind of living before I
[36:19] Speaker 2: went in a lot of the time anyway. And yeah,
[36:23] Speaker 2: so after about three and a half months, I moved
[36:26] Speaker 2: into a government housing place in Redferne and Rainbow Lodge
[36:30] Speaker 2: to help furnish it. You know that they do some
[36:33] Speaker 2: work with another or Relove and some other places that
[36:37] Speaker 2: help with furnishing, and they did that, which you know,
[36:40] Speaker 2: I was really really thankful for. And yeah, I was
[36:44] Speaker 2: able to for the first time in six years, have
[36:47] Speaker 2: a place that I could say was my own and
[36:50] Speaker 2: was a safe place to be and start thinking about
[36:53] Speaker 2: what next.
[36:55] Speaker 1: And to me, it seems like a more real environment
[36:58] Speaker 1: than your little o mirror's drug dealing empire. Absolutely, and
[37:03] Speaker 1: you've got people that are genuinely there to help you,
[37:06] Speaker 1: absolutely have any benefit to themselves.
[37:09] Speaker 2: That's right. It was not transactional.
[37:11] Speaker 1: Yeah, and that must from the childhood you've come from,
[37:15] Speaker 1: where the neglect that you suffer, and it must have
[37:18] Speaker 1: been something completely foreign.
[37:20] Speaker 2: To absolutely and something else Rainbow Lodge does which a
[37:24] Speaker 2: lot of other rehabs and other places don't do, which
[37:27] Speaker 2: is the ongoing outreach support afterwards up to two years.
[37:32] Speaker 1: Then what form does that come in?
[37:33] Speaker 2: So that means that the men still have access to
[37:37] Speaker 2: Rainbow Lodge as a service and caseworkers. They can come
[37:40] Speaker 2: and have dinner if they want, just drop in and
[37:42] Speaker 2: have dinner, and it's a place to touch base. If
[37:45] Speaker 2: they need help with some medical issue or some other
[37:49] Speaker 2: administration or something like that that they're having difficulty with,
[37:52] Speaker 2: the caseworker can still help them. So all the guys
[37:55] Speaker 2: that leave and go through the program, they'll have a
[37:58] Speaker 2: caseworker who becomes their outreach work. And for me, that
[38:02] Speaker 2: meant afterwards, I was there was somewhere I could touch
[38:04] Speaker 2: base and somewhere I could reach out if I needed
[38:07] Speaker 2: needed help, you know, Okay, and I did need that
[38:10] Speaker 2: a couple of times.
[38:11] Speaker 1: The times where you're losing your way.
[38:13] Speaker 2: No, I wasn't losing my way, but I had some
[38:15] Speaker 2: medical things that had been unaddressed when I was in jail,
[38:18] Speaker 2: and you know, one of the things was I needed
[38:20] Speaker 2: to be picked up afterwards because I was going under
[38:23] Speaker 2: general anesthetic.
[38:24] Speaker 1: Oh right, as simple as that.
[38:25] Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like, well what am I going to do?
[38:26] Speaker 2: I can't just call it uber, yeah, you know. And
[38:29] Speaker 2: Claude came and picked me up after the after the operation,
[38:32] Speaker 2: and they helped pay for it as well, so because
[38:35] Speaker 2: I was living on Centering at the time and couldn't
[38:38] Speaker 2: afford that. So yeah, there are I remember sending a
[38:42] Speaker 2: message one time, it was about six months after and
[38:45] Speaker 2: saying thank you and just that they fulfill like in
[38:50] Speaker 2: a way like a surrogate family. I guess they fulfill
[38:53] Speaker 2: that role, you know. And it doesn't mean to get
[38:55] Speaker 2: hugs off everything.
[38:56] Speaker 1: But I don't think there's a kind of support, you know,
[38:59] Speaker 1: shame insane because it's almost like the family you've been looking.
[39:02] Speaker 2: For, that's right. They're reliable.
[39:05] Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, and that's why the family should provide and
[39:08] Speaker 1: that's something that you didn't have absolutely when you're growing up.
[39:12] Speaker 1: How long has it been running for the brain bad Lodge.
[39:15] Speaker 2: I'm not sure that's a long time. I think it
[39:17] Speaker 2: goes back into the sixties.
[39:18] Speaker 1: It's been running for a long time, clearly, and I
[39:21] Speaker 1: see it the functions that I've attended a few times
[39:24] Speaker 1: with the heavy hitters there, the politicians, judges and all
[39:29] Speaker 1: sorts of people supporting it.
[39:31] Speaker 2: There's a lot of good will towards Rainbow Lodge.
[39:34] Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, so it must have the runs on the
[39:36] Speaker 1: board been successful. A funny thing that works. Why it
[39:41] Speaker 1: can't be on the larger scale, But.
[39:44] Speaker 2: I don't know. I was looking at something the other day.
[39:46] Speaker 2: It's a bit of a grape of mind that just
[39:48] Speaker 2: seeing where money is spent in other places, you know,
[39:51] Speaker 2: and people think that government's always talking about government money
[39:55] Speaker 2: being spent, taxpayer money being spent. Right, it's not government,
[40:00] Speaker 2: but it's taxpayer monet. And I think as taxpayers we
[40:04] Speaker 2: have the right for a safer community, right, and for
[40:06] Speaker 2: them to do what they can do to give us
[40:07] Speaker 2: a safe community and do the best job they can do.
[40:10] Speaker 2: And I always hear them banging on about the science,
[40:13] Speaker 2: you know, when it comes to the climate, it's always like,
[40:15] Speaker 2: listen to the science. Listen to the science, right, and okay,
[40:18] Speaker 2: we'll buy into that. We'll listen to the science.
[40:19] Speaker 1: That's a reasonable way to push a point.
[40:21] Speaker 2: But what about the science of recivitism and incarceration. All
[40:26] Speaker 2: the stats, government stats tell you it doesn't work, So
[40:29] Speaker 2: why not listen to the science there? And for me,
[40:32] Speaker 2: when you look at the stats of somewhere like Rainbow
[40:34] Speaker 2: or places like rehabilitation services, which are also desperately needed
[40:40] Speaker 2: because I think drugs is such a big driver of crime.
[40:43] Speaker 2: You know, so these are the things we need if
[40:47] Speaker 2: you really want to make safer communities and prevent crime,
[40:51] Speaker 2: that these are the things that need to be funded.
[40:53] Speaker 2: And it's not a left or right thing, it's a
[40:55] Speaker 2: do you want a safer community that?
[40:57] Speaker 1: Well, I think that's that scenarrative, and that gets lost
[41:01] Speaker 1: in the telling because people go, we're getting soft. Who
[41:04] Speaker 1: cares what happens to them when they release from prison?
[41:07] Speaker 1: You care when it's your class, well stupid if they
[41:12] Speaker 1: fall back in the crime, which all care. I see
[41:15] Speaker 1: even around Glube where it is the neighbors support the
[41:18] Speaker 1: which is a big That says a lot. You're having
[41:23] Speaker 1: all these X cons come here, but we don't want
[41:25] Speaker 1: them in this neighborhood. They're supportive it, so that that
[41:28] Speaker 1: says it says a great.
[41:29] Speaker 2: Deal on that. Yeah, I remember Claude talking about one
[41:32] Speaker 2: time an older and older lady down the road coming
[41:35] Speaker 2: and dropping lemons off these guys. Yeah, there's a cafe
[41:40] Speaker 2: up the road that puts to breakfast on once a week. Yeah,
[41:43] Speaker 2: it's really it's amazing.
[41:44] Speaker 1: And little things like that. How important is that to
[41:48] Speaker 1: someone like yourself that haven't seen that, that sort of gratitude.
[41:53] Speaker 2: And it's it's evidence that the people around you and
[42:00] Speaker 2: other people that there's good people out there. And because
[42:02] Speaker 2: when you're operating in the world of crime and in prison,
[42:07] Speaker 2: it's very easy to think that everyone is out to
[42:10] Speaker 2: get something from you, and that you can't trust people,
[42:13] Speaker 2: and that that people are inherently not good. And when
[42:18] Speaker 2: you come out and you start you know, if that's
[42:22] Speaker 2: you know, for me it was working and studying and
[42:24] Speaker 2: that kind of thing, or if it's when you look
[42:25] Speaker 2: at the community around you and see how like accepting
[42:27] Speaker 2: they are and you start realizing that there is another
[42:30] Speaker 2: way of living and that there's another way of being,
[42:34] Speaker 2: you know, and even that the way that the community
[42:38] Speaker 2: responds to Rainbow Lodge is it indication that there is
[42:42] Speaker 2: another way and that people I think are inherently good.
[42:47] Speaker 1: Education. You started studying what are you doing? And how
[42:52] Speaker 1: did how did that come about?
[42:54] Speaker 2: Yeah, so I wanted to study my whole life, attempted
[42:58] Speaker 2: a number of times, fail dozens of times that at
[43:02] Speaker 2: least time.
[43:02] Speaker 1: Too hard you to felt like you were too far behind.
[43:05] Speaker 2: Exactly like a start tape. I don't know how many
[43:08] Speaker 2: tape course I started and dropped out of, you know,
[43:10] Speaker 2: and something would come up, whether it was my mental
[43:13] Speaker 2: health or some kind of barrier, or I would just
[43:16] Speaker 2: get bored really quickly and I just couldn't stick it out.
[43:19] Speaker 2: And there was so much evidence that I couldn't stick
[43:21] Speaker 2: it out. It was soul crushing. But coming out of
[43:26] Speaker 2: out of prison and at Rainbow and having this period
[43:30] Speaker 2: of abstinence, you know, I really felt like I had
[43:33] Speaker 2: a good crack at it at this time and could
[43:34] Speaker 2: do it and just really single minded about about completing something.
[43:40] Speaker 2: And I had also decided I wanted to work in
[43:44] Speaker 2: the community service industry and give something back, especially after
[43:48] Speaker 2: that time in Rainbow. That really solidified for me that
[43:51] Speaker 2: this is the industry I wanted to work in, and
[43:54] Speaker 2: that my history might actually be a benefit to people
[43:58] Speaker 2: that I'm working with. Definitely, and so I thought, this
[44:02] Speaker 2: is what I can do, you know, and turn what's
[44:05] Speaker 2: been a pretty tragic life into something positive. So tragic
[44:12] Speaker 2: up until then, you know. And yeah, so I did
[44:15] Speaker 2: community services at TATHE, which was such a fantastic experience
[44:21] Speaker 2: for someone coming out of prison to get to spend
[44:25] Speaker 2: time around people that I normally wouldn't get to spend
[44:27] Speaker 2: time around, a lot of international students, other people that
[44:31] Speaker 2: you know, really wanted to give back to community. And yeah,
[44:35] Speaker 2: it was just a really really good experience and it
[44:37] Speaker 2: really helped me open up.
[44:39] Speaker 1: And yeah, I'm not seeing here laughing at you. I'm
[44:43] Speaker 1: laughing laughing with you in the fact that you're seeing
[44:46] Speaker 1: there are good people out out in the world. Absolutely,
[44:49] Speaker 1: it's taken you to your absolutely late thirties where you're
[44:55] Speaker 1: you're seeing seeing good people in the world. Yeah, And
[44:59] Speaker 1: I would imagine studying, getting qualifications, passing stuff, must get
[45:04] Speaker 1: raise yourself absolutely self.
[45:06] Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, So it was like once I did that,
[45:08] Speaker 2: it's like what next.
[45:09] Speaker 1: Yeah, So.
[45:11] Speaker 2: I'd really eventually like to be a psychologist and doing
[45:15] Speaker 2: that kind of thing. So that's kind of where I'm aiming.
[45:17] Speaker 2: I did a counseling diploma after the community services and
[45:22] Speaker 2: now I'm at your need studying while while I'm working.
[45:25] Speaker 1: So if you're studying something you enjoy, it doesn't It's true,
[45:31] Speaker 1: that's what I like, something you're interested in it. That's
[45:35] Speaker 1: not hard work, That's true. When can I get back
[45:38] Speaker 1: into it?
[45:39] Speaker 2: Rainbow has been really supportive of that as well. You
[45:41] Speaker 2: know that when I was at Tape when my computer died,
[45:44] Speaker 2: you know, and Claude helped me get a computer, and
[45:48] Speaker 2: I just owe them so much. You know, they really
[45:50] Speaker 2: have helped me a lot.
[45:51] Speaker 1: It keeps telling me he's a good person, but.
[45:54] Speaker 2: You can't tell when you talk to me.
[45:57] Speaker 1: I think we're going to have to acknowledge cool, these
[45:59] Speaker 1: are good No. The first time I saw him was
[46:02] Speaker 1: at Government House and there was Supreme Court judges there,
[46:08] Speaker 1: the head of the Dpper, a whole whole range of people.
[46:10] Speaker 1: I'd been invited. This is after I just left the
[46:13] Speaker 1: police and I'm a little bit lost and wandering around
[46:18] Speaker 1: the Government House and I see someone. I think, I
[46:21] Speaker 1: think you and I got something in common that we
[46:23] Speaker 1: could we could talk about. And that's where I met him.
[46:27] Speaker 1: Next time I saw him speaking at Parliament House. Invited
[46:30] Speaker 1: to another event there at State Parliament. But yeah, he's
[46:34] Speaker 1: he's a power sources. What the work wise, what are
[46:37] Speaker 1: you doing?
[46:38] Speaker 2: Yes, I'm actually working at Rainbow Lots.
[46:40] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[46:40] Speaker 2: Yeah, so that was it was a goal of mine
[46:43] Speaker 2: when I was there. Yeah, you know, and like a
[46:45] Speaker 2: quiet goal of mine that yeah, which was like, yeah,
[46:48] Speaker 2: I want to work here one day and yeah. And
[46:52] Speaker 2: initially I was working as an offsider on a garbage truck,
[46:55] Speaker 2: you know, something else Cord helped me with to find
[46:59] Speaker 2: that work, you know, through another organization at the time.
[47:02] Speaker 2: And yeah, so started off there and I was able
[47:06] Speaker 2: to do that, which helped me study part time. It
[47:08] Speaker 2: was just a bit of part time work and yeah,
[47:11] Speaker 2: and then a position became available at Rainbow and by
[47:13] Speaker 2: then I'd already done my diploma and done this so forth.
[47:18] Speaker 2: So I think he felt like, you know, the had
[47:20] Speaker 2: the academic and the lived experience, you know, and I thought,
[47:25] Speaker 2: you know, he'd give me the opportunity to have a
[47:27] Speaker 2: go of it and see how I'd go. And it
[47:30] Speaker 2: wasn't easy at first.
[47:31] Speaker 1: No, I would imagine that it's confronting. Can you tell
[47:34] Speaker 1: us about the examples of we've got the sense of
[47:37] Speaker 1: what it did for you without without identifying the person
[47:41] Speaker 1: someone that has come there that Rainbow has helped that
[47:45] Speaker 1: you thought surprised because I'm sure you would still have
[47:48] Speaker 1: your jail sense about you. Okay, what's this person carrying?
[47:52] Speaker 1: There's a hyper alertness to problems. Did you have someone
[47:57] Speaker 1: come there? You think we're not going to we're not
[47:59] Speaker 1: going to win this bloke over, but someone that really
[48:02] Speaker 1: turns to the ram.
[48:03] Speaker 2: It happens more often than you think. It's really hard
[48:06] Speaker 2: to pick who will make it through the program. And
[48:12] Speaker 2: it's also it's something that you know, I've talked about
[48:16] Speaker 2: and I'm sure the other people at work and we
[48:18] Speaker 2: talk about sometimes actually what is success and what is
[48:23] Speaker 2: a successful time at a place like Rainbow or any
[48:25] Speaker 2: other rehab another rehab or something not that Rainbow's a rehabit,
[48:29] Speaker 2: any other kind of service like that. How do you
[48:31] Speaker 2: gauge success? And it's different for different people, you know,
[48:35] Speaker 2: for some people, you know, I've had guys tell me
[48:38] Speaker 2: that going through the program, it's the first time they've
[48:41] Speaker 2: gone through parole without breaching parole, you know, and for
[48:45] Speaker 2: them that's a massive success. And you know, I really
[48:49] Speaker 2: acknowledge that and applaud that because for some guys that's
[48:52] Speaker 2: the first time in twenty years or thirty years they've
[48:54] Speaker 2: made it through parole, you know, so that that's an achievement,
[48:57] Speaker 2: you know, And for other people that's I mean more
[49:01] Speaker 2: it's it's finding work, and it's living by themselves and
[49:05] Speaker 2: having like healthy relationships and and you know, doing that
[49:08] Speaker 2: kind of thing for other people is just staying out
[49:11] Speaker 2: of prison, you know, And even if that means not working,
[49:15] Speaker 2: maybe they're not able to work yet and maybe that's
[49:17] Speaker 2: not a goal, but maybe staying out of prison their goal.
[49:20] Speaker 2: And having having a relationship with family, you know that
[49:25] Speaker 2: they haven't been able to have before because of prison
[49:28] Speaker 2: and drugs and crime. And yeah, so there's in terms
[49:32] Speaker 2: of people that have surprised me, there's definitely been a few,
[49:34] Speaker 2: you know. You know, there was one guy who I'm
[49:39] Speaker 2: not going to say names. You know, he came through
[49:41] Speaker 2: one time and within a couple of weeks and I'd
[49:44] Speaker 2: just started, you know, and he'd overdosed and it was
[49:48] Speaker 2: it was pretty intense and I just started. It was
[49:50] Speaker 2: pretty confronting for me as well, you know, and yeah,
[49:54] Speaker 2: he had to leave afterwards because you can't he's not
[49:58] Speaker 2: allowed to stay with that kind of thing. You know.
[50:00] Speaker 2: He really really did reach it because he had drugs
[50:02] Speaker 2: on him and this kind of stuff as well. Any
[50:04] Speaker 2: other if it wasn't rehab or any other place, there's
[50:08] Speaker 2: no chance he would have been able to come back, right,
[50:10] Speaker 2: They wouldn't let him come back, you know. And where
[50:14] Speaker 2: was this fellow, you know, six months later or a
[50:16] Speaker 2: year later, maybe maybe he's asked if he can come
[50:19] Speaker 2: back again, and Claude said, I'll give you another go,
[50:21] Speaker 2: you know. And when Claude said it, I was thinking,
[50:26] Speaker 2: there's no chance because my last recollection of this guy,
[50:29] Speaker 2: what he was like, there was no chance he was
[50:30] Speaker 2: going to go do it. You know, he wasn't going
[50:32] Speaker 2: to go well. He even said some things to me
[50:35] Speaker 2: at the time. You know, I just thought there was
[50:37] Speaker 2: no chance he's going to do it well, you know.
[50:39] Speaker 2: And yeah, he did really well, you know, and he
[50:44] Speaker 2: completed the program, didn't use drugs again, you know, got
[50:48] Speaker 2: really healthy. It's really good to see. It's beautiful to see.
[50:52] Speaker 2: And just hope the very best for him moving forward
[50:54] Speaker 2: as well.
[50:55] Speaker 1: That well, yeah, of one life saved or pointed in
[50:58] Speaker 1: the right direction, and the impact that that can have.
[51:02] Speaker 1: My observation of it, all the sense I get of
[51:04] Speaker 1: it too, you'd be calling each other on bullshit too,
[51:07] Speaker 1: Like when you're having having the meals, and it wouldn't
[51:10] Speaker 1: be a tough guy jail conversation. You'd be talking about emotions,
[51:14] Speaker 1: talking about relationship. True, And I think that's so healthy
[51:18] Speaker 1: for a group of that. It's better than them going
[51:22] Speaker 1: down the pub hooking up with their old crew and
[51:25] Speaker 1: prison was a piece of piece blah blah blah.
[51:27] Speaker 2: True.
[51:28] Speaker 1: You'd be blokes there that I would imagine there'd be
[51:30] Speaker 1: some interesting and very honest and emotional conversations around the
[51:34] Speaker 1: mill table.
[51:35] Speaker 2: And that's another thing that happened at Rainbow. One of
[51:39] Speaker 2: the other support workers does the role I do, also
[51:42] Speaker 2: runs to men's group, and that's a really like, yeah,
[51:46] Speaker 2: a time where the guys sit down and they're really
[51:49] Speaker 2: open and talk about, you know, their feelings and things
[51:52] Speaker 2: that are going on for them, and really open up
[51:54] Speaker 2: and in a way that they probably haven't some of
[51:57] Speaker 2: them maybe ever.
[51:58] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[51:59] Speaker 2: I know Claude talks about it and I can't remember
[52:02] Speaker 2: the exact terminology, but it's like we'll try and provide
[52:05] Speaker 2: a whole bunch of services, Like there's music therapy, there's
[52:08] Speaker 2: art therapy, as psychologists, there's day trips, there's dinner. There's
[52:13] Speaker 2: there's the time spent with like incidental counseling. There's like
[52:16] Speaker 2: the time spent as a group. There's the behavior management.
[52:20] Speaker 2: There's all this different stuff going on, and it's like
[52:23] Speaker 2: if some of it gels, you know, you can't expect
[52:26] Speaker 2: all of it to gel with everyone. But there's the
[52:29] Speaker 2: gym as well. You know, there's there's all these different
[52:31] Speaker 2: things and you just hope that some of it will gel.
[52:34] Speaker 2: And even if a couple of those things kind of
[52:36] Speaker 2: make an impact, they can they can really help help
[52:39] Speaker 2: change the difference.
[52:41] Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I hope it, hope it continues. On your submission,
[52:46] Speaker 1: How did it come about that you did the submission
[52:49] Speaker 1: for the parliamentary inquiry.
[52:52] Speaker 2: Yes, so I was approached by someone from the Raise
[52:56] Speaker 2: the Age campaign. Yeah yeah, and yeah, she might't mind
[53:01] Speaker 2: me saying her name, but Emily approached me from RAS
[53:04] Speaker 2: Raise the Age, and yeah, we she just said, you know,
[53:08] Speaker 2: would you like to come and be part of this.
[53:11] Speaker 2: You know, she'd heard a little bit about my story
[53:13] Speaker 2: as well, and we went through and talked a little
[53:15] Speaker 2: bit kind of like what you and I have done today,
[53:18] Speaker 2: and you know, we realized that my story is an
[53:22] Speaker 2: example of what can go wrong, you know, when when
[53:26] Speaker 2: a young person isn't given the support they needed, and
[53:28] Speaker 2: it also highlights what can be done done right. Yeah,
[53:32] Speaker 2: so yeah, a lot of that was done through race age.
[53:37] Speaker 2: And then Emily said, you know, but I like to
[53:38] Speaker 2: make a submission and I said absolutely, and it just
[53:42] Speaker 2: went from there.
[53:44] Speaker 1: Powerful stuff and hopefully with the submissions, not just yours,
[53:48] Speaker 1: with all the other ones in there, but some some
[53:50] Speaker 1: good will will comes out of it and some some understanding.
[53:54] Speaker 1: Because getting back on the youth crime situation, I've been
[53:57] Speaker 1: sitting in people often asks, yeah, I'll have mates that'll
[54:01] Speaker 1: be saying, well, you know, they should lock them up.
[54:03] Speaker 1: And it's not that if we locked up everyone you
[54:06] Speaker 1: think should be locked up, there'd be no one out.
[54:11] Speaker 1: We're locking everyone. But yeah, all the and the narrative
[54:14] Speaker 1: that plays out in the media. But it's much deeper,
[54:17] Speaker 1: isn't it. That We've talked in the second part about
[54:21] Speaker 1: Rainbow Lodge, and that's from the adult point of view,
[54:24] Speaker 1: but it all goes back to what happens as a child.
[54:27] Speaker 1: Don't say you found yourself in Rainbow the Lodge. To
[54:29] Speaker 1: start with, what happened happened as a child.
[54:33] Speaker 2: And that's the I think that's the thing that is
[54:36] Speaker 2: really highlighted by my story, which is that if the
[54:41] Speaker 2: support that that I've been given at Rainbow happened when
[54:45] Speaker 2: I was eighteen or seventeen or any other time, you know,
[54:49] Speaker 2: but especially as a young person, all this could have
[54:52] Speaker 2: been prevented.
[54:53] Speaker 1: Yeah, you know.
[54:54] Speaker 2: And I think about the the literally millions of dollars
[54:58] Speaker 2: of taxpayer money that's been spent on me. I didn't
[55:00] Speaker 2: pay tax for thirty something years. I mean, I literally
[55:04] Speaker 2: gave nothing back. All I did was like cause harmed
[55:08] Speaker 2: in the community around me, or the only tax I
[55:11] Speaker 2: paid was through stuff I was buying.
[55:14] Speaker 1: Well, again, if it comes comes down to an argument,
[55:18] Speaker 1: if we're not saying, well, it's the right thing to do,
[55:20] Speaker 1: because it's the right.
[55:22] Speaker 2: Just playing look look at the fine exactly. And I'm
[55:24] Speaker 2: happy to think about it that way. And I think
[55:26] Speaker 2: that's fair enough to look at it that way. Everyone
[55:28] Speaker 2: doesn't have to care about everyone else if they don't
[55:30] Speaker 2: want to. But if you want a safer community and
[55:34] Speaker 2: you don't want your taxpayers dollars wasted, there's another way
[55:38] Speaker 2: to do.
[55:38] Speaker 1: And I think it would be fair to say, and
[55:41] Speaker 1: I look at it. I haven't been in the system,
[55:42] Speaker 1: but I've seen the results of the system. You get
[55:46] Speaker 1: tough on the kids a crime without some sort of
[55:50] Speaker 1: intervention or redirecting them, you're just going to build tougher, harder,
[55:57] Speaker 1: are going to come out and inflict it.
[56:00] Speaker 2: And whose faults that?
[56:01] Speaker 1: Yeah?
[56:01] Speaker 2: Yeah, you know what I mean is that? Can you
[56:03] Speaker 2: really blame that child or even that adult when they
[56:06] Speaker 2: do that? Because we know we know what works, we
[56:10] Speaker 2: know what doesn't work. The government knows what works and
[56:12] Speaker 2: what doesn't work. They've got the evidence. People have been
[56:15] Speaker 2: screaming it for years. Like you could do a quick
[56:19] Speaker 2: Google search on anything and say, you know, stats on crime,
[56:22] Speaker 2: stats on reciptism doesn't work. Yeah, it's just you don't
[56:27] Speaker 2: have to be left or right the answer.
[56:29] Speaker 1: And once you know we've got that media pushing the
[56:33] Speaker 1: aspect of youth, try on youth crime. Yeah, well that's right.
[56:38] Speaker 1: We're seeing the media building now. But that that is
[56:41] Speaker 1: the reality of it, And I think, yeah, we could
[56:45] Speaker 1: use the media in a positive way and say, okay,
[56:47] Speaker 1: let's look at the alternatives, let's look at how we
[56:50] Speaker 1: can how we can change it.
[56:52] Speaker 2: I guess that's part of what you're highlighting now.
[56:54] Speaker 1: Well, I'm trying to like I when I finish the police,
[56:58] Speaker 1: I still wanted to fight. But what I've realized since
[57:01] Speaker 1: I've got out of the police, there's other ways of
[57:04] Speaker 1: fighting crime, and people like yourself and Claude and a
[57:08] Speaker 1: whole range of people, there's definitely different ways, and if
[57:12] Speaker 1: we fall onto a more of an Eastern philosophy of
[57:16] Speaker 1: prevention is better than cure. I think start at the
[57:20] Speaker 1: kids when they talk about putting money into policing. We
[57:27] Speaker 1: need police and anyone that says we don't regret as naive,
[57:30] Speaker 1: but pour it into education too. Like education, like you
[57:36] Speaker 1: move around the fifteen different schools. Maybe if more money
[57:39] Speaker 1: was in education, they could have identified, hey, there's a
[57:42] Speaker 1: problem going on with absolutely what can we do and
[57:45] Speaker 1: the benefits of end education. Good teachers, role models and
[57:50] Speaker 1: mental teachers.
[57:51] Speaker 2: I think they can play a really big part two.
[57:53] Speaker 2: And I think there's been a lot of evidence for
[57:55] Speaker 2: that of you know, people we lived experience being mentalised.
[58:00] Speaker 1: I keep pushing that and it saddens me. I see
[58:03] Speaker 1: too many times people that I can see men and
[58:06] Speaker 1: women that have turned their life around. I think they've
[58:08] Speaker 1: got such a valuable message they could pass on, but
[58:12] Speaker 1: they hit the hurdles of oh, we can't can't engage
[58:15] Speaker 1: you because of what you've done well the very reason
[58:17] Speaker 1: because you've done that why they need. Normally, at the
[58:23] Speaker 1: end of a podcast, I thank you, which I will do,
[58:29] Speaker 1: I thank you and say that you've left an impression,
[58:33] Speaker 1: which you have. But I want you to be the
[58:35] Speaker 1: last voice and that if it's okay, and I'm putting
[58:38] Speaker 1: you on the spot here, I want you to read
[58:40] Speaker 1: out these are the final four paragraphs of the submission
[58:44] Speaker 1: you made, and I just want people to listen to
[58:47] Speaker 1: that and sit on that, because I don't think there's
[58:49] Speaker 1: anything I can say that carries more way to that.
[58:53] Speaker 2: Imagine if children like me were given this opportunity earlier.
[58:57] Speaker 2: I think my life could have been very different if
[58:59] Speaker 2: I wasn't punished for my disadvantage and the abuse I
[59:02] Speaker 2: enjoyed as a child. Locking kids up doesn't work. It
[59:06] Speaker 2: didn't work for me or for thousands of children who
[59:09] Speaker 2: have been locked up after me. What we do to
[59:12] Speaker 2: children shapes their future, and children grow up, we should
[59:16] Speaker 2: remember they are part of our communities. We need a
[59:20] Speaker 2: better way where kids get the support they need to
[59:22] Speaker 2: have a sense of belonging, learn to be accountable and
[59:26] Speaker 2: get the opportunities and thrive. Thanks, good on mate, Now,
[59:31] Speaker 2: thank you, thank you, I really appreciating it.
[59:33] Speaker 1: All the best for the future and say in touch
[59:35] Speaker 2: Yeah fantastic, Thank you Jeeves.

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