# An interview with a killer: Anthony Jones Pt. 1

An episode of [I Catch Killers with Gary Jubelin](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1506667049), 14 Mar 2026, 55 min.

Audio: https://p.podderapp.com/2544644999/traffic.omny.fm/d/clips/2fb3740d-3436-44af-8cc0-a91900716aa5/5bc8c2ed-b718-4f44-beb3-ac2a005246cc/df24c8d6-541a-468b-bbf5-b40b0038fdc5/audio.mp3?utm_source=Podcast&in_playlist=786928c3-10c1-4cef-a7bf-ac2a005246d0

At a 2010 house party, Anthony Jones was involved in a drunken brawl, which led to a tragedy that impacted countless lives. Anthony stabbed his friend, Edan Brown, who died from the injuries. Charged with murder, Anthony broke the criminal code and pled guilty as the first step to taking responsibility for his actions - a move that saw his own mother disown him in open court. With the Brown family’s blessing, Gary Jubelin sits down with Anthony to uncover the "pure evil" of his childhood and the rage that led him into a spiral that culminated in this senseless loss of life. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

## Transcript

[0:01] Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.
[0:05] Speaker 1: Detective see aside of life. The average person is never
[0:08] Speaker 1: exposed her I spent thirty four years as a cop.
[0:11] Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.
[0:14] Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a
[0:16] Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,
[0:20] Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.
[0:23] Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories
[0:26] Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw
[0:28] Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talked to. Some
[0:31] Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because
[0:34] Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.
[0:38] Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.
[0:46] Speaker 1: In twenty ten, Eden Brown was stabbed and murdered. Today,
[0:51] Speaker 1: I sat down with Anthony Jones, the person convicted of
[0:54] Speaker 1: Eden's murder. This was a tough conversation. I wouldn't have
[0:58] Speaker 1: done it unless Anthony was prepared to take responsibility. Eden
[1:02] Speaker 1: was stabbed at the party by Anthony, who was a mate.
[1:05] Speaker 1: It was a brutal, senseless crime that destroyed lives. We
[1:09] Speaker 1: talked about the murder, the trauma of his childhood filled
[1:12] Speaker 1: with violence, the brutality of prison, and how he has
[1:16] Speaker 1: found salvation. Needless to say, this episode covers a lot
[1:20] Speaker 1: of sensitive topics. Take care while listening to it. Anthony Jones,
[1:24] Speaker 1: Welcome to I Catch Killers.
[1:26] Speaker 2: Thanks for having me.
[1:27] Speaker 1: Well, you've got an interesting story and it's certainly something
[1:32] Speaker 1: I want to sit down and talk to you about.
[1:35] Speaker 1: It was a mutual friend of ours, Joe a Kon
[1:37] Speaker 1: that got in contact with me and said, Hey, you
[1:39] Speaker 1: going to check out this bloke aj He called you
[1:42] Speaker 1: and I started talking to Joe about it and your story,
[1:46] Speaker 1: and it's pretty heavy. It's a full on story.
[1:50] Speaker 2: It's definitely heavy and a good maide of mind. Joe
[1:53] Speaker 2: who does the confident Yeah, so we're starting to collaborate
[1:57] Speaker 2: with what I'm doing as well. But good made of
[1:59] Speaker 2: mine and he told me you're a good bloke.
[2:01] Speaker 1: So well that a shout out to Joey came on,
[2:05] Speaker 1: came on the podcast and I bumped into him. I
[2:08] Speaker 1: bumped into him the boxing match last time I saw him.
[2:12] Speaker 1: But the work that Joe's doing with Comfit is a
[2:15] Speaker 1: good stuff, so well.
[2:16] Speaker 2: He's taken what he's learned in prison. How to train
[2:19] Speaker 2: and what that meant to guy's physical exercise. And he's
[2:23] Speaker 2: come up with a business plan called a confit and
[2:25] Speaker 2: now he goes into juvenile facilities all across the country
[2:28] Speaker 2: and teaches him how to change their mindset, how to
[2:31] Speaker 2: use their aggressive manner in a good way through exercise.
[2:36] Speaker 2: And he's been developing mentors to go walk alongside these
[2:40] Speaker 2: guys and amazing what he's doing.
[2:42] Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that people who have walked the path
[2:45] Speaker 1: because Joe got himself into a lot of trouble the
[2:48] Speaker 1: younger years and did a lot of the time. But
[2:51] Speaker 1: young blokes and girls are going to listen to people
[2:53] Speaker 1: who have got that life experience. I think that's so
[2:56] Speaker 1: important lived experience. When they know you've been there, done that, Yeah,
[3:01] Speaker 1: they'll listen. They're not going to listen to the authority
[3:02] Speaker 1: that they have there. Yeah, and that's why Joe's made
[3:05] Speaker 1: a massive impact him in his crew and Yeah, just
[3:08] Speaker 1: super proud of what he's doing and gives us a
[3:10] Speaker 1: pathway too, guys who want to change your life that. Yeah,
[3:13] Speaker 1: it's awesome. So he said, you got an interesting story,
[3:16] Speaker 1: and I looked at your background and yeah, coming from
[3:19] Speaker 1: the area I did in the cops and a homicide detective,
[3:22] Speaker 1: and I see that you've been convicted of murder and
[3:26] Speaker 1: that you actually pleaded guilty to the murder, And to
[3:30] Speaker 1: be honest, I was a little bit conflicted whether to
[3:33] Speaker 1: get you on get you on the podcast. I've had
[3:35] Speaker 1: people who have been convicted of the murder on the
[3:37] Speaker 1: on the podcast before. But a lot of my thing
[3:41] Speaker 1: during my policing career was looking out for the victims,
[3:45] Speaker 1: all the families of victims of homicide. So I thought
[3:49] Speaker 1: I'd ask you the question, and I wasn't sure what
[3:53] Speaker 1: the what the response was, but I was quite pleased
[3:56] Speaker 1: by the response. When it was Eden Brown, the person
[4:00] Speaker 1: that you killed, I said, I want to reach out
[4:03] Speaker 1: to their family and just get a sense of what
[4:06] Speaker 1: their families are of you on me sitting down with
[4:09] Speaker 1: you in a podcast. I spoke to Jessica, Eden's sister,
[4:14] Speaker 1: and she was happy for me to talk to you.
[4:19] Speaker 1: There's a couple of things that she said she wants
[4:21] Speaker 1: me to ask you, and I said I would, But
[4:24] Speaker 1: more importantly, I was happy that your response when I
[4:27] Speaker 1: said I want to speak to the family, you said,
[4:29] Speaker 1: I'm so glad that you said that, because you don't
[4:32] Speaker 1: want to cause any more pain to the family. And
[4:35] Speaker 1: that told me a little bit about the person that
[4:37] Speaker 1: you are.
[4:38] Speaker 2: Yeah, I was hoping you'd say that because I can't
[4:41] Speaker 2: obviously talk to them still on parole. Yeah, and I'm
[4:46] Speaker 2: so cautious about how I present myself and what I say. Well,
[4:49] Speaker 2: they're always in the background for me in my mind,
[4:53] Speaker 2: and everything I do now is actually you know, propelled
[4:56] Speaker 2: for what's going on. So I first and foremost I
[5:00] Speaker 2: always want to show them respect. You know, they've lost
[5:03] Speaker 2: their son. Yeah, and for some reason, my life's been spared,
[5:07] Speaker 2: so I don't take that for granted.
[5:09] Speaker 1: Now. Well, that came across, came across when I spoke
[5:14] Speaker 1: to you, and I know that you've turned your life around,
[5:17] Speaker 1: and we're going to talk a lot about about that
[5:20] Speaker 1: later on in the podcast. But dealing with the situation
[5:25] Speaker 1: that sent you the jail, and not in the first place,
[5:28] Speaker 1: because you've done time before that, but with the death
[5:31] Speaker 1: of I'll call it for what it is. It was
[5:35] Speaker 1: ruled to be a murder, a homicide of Eden Brown.
[5:39] Speaker 1: Eden was your mate who was Yeah, let's let's start
[5:42] Speaker 1: this podcast off talking a little bit about Eden who
[5:46] Speaker 1: he was, and what your relationship with Eden was.
[5:51] Speaker 2: He was quite a bit older than me. He's like
[5:53] Speaker 2: a big brother. Top of role when as you started
[5:55] Speaker 2: to get become closer his mates. I just met him
[5:58] Speaker 2: through I met about the gym actually, yep, through just
[6:01] Speaker 2: training at the gym, and he was you know, I
[6:06] Speaker 2: met him through steroids. He was on steroids and I
[6:09] Speaker 2: used to get steroids off him. And then we connected
[6:12] Speaker 2: as started connect as mates and started to hang out
[6:15] Speaker 2: pretty frequently, and.
[6:20] Speaker 1: Probably for maybe two years.
[6:21] Speaker 2: I reckon, we're mates, and then I just we had
[6:26] Speaker 2: a few differences, a few things that I just honestly
[6:31] Speaker 2: didn't really appreciate what he was doing. So I kind
[6:33] Speaker 2: of distanced myself a little bit. We weren't as close
[6:36] Speaker 2: as we once were, but we were still mates, but
[6:40] Speaker 2: we weren't. We didn't we didn't hang out as much
[6:42] Speaker 2: towards the end to where he passed.
[6:45] Speaker 1: Away, right, And what.
[6:48] Speaker 2: What year was that, two thousand and nine and nine ten?
[6:55] Speaker 2: We probably probably met him two thousand and nine, I reckon,
[6:58] Speaker 2: and then the murder happened in two thousand ten.
[7:00] Speaker 1: Heavy stuff.
[7:02] Speaker 2: Yeah, I haven't really talked about like this, so.
[7:05] Speaker 1: Yeah, it is heavy, mate. Well, yeah, we spoke before
[7:08] Speaker 1: we sat down on to do the podcast, and I said,
[7:11] Speaker 1: I last ask the hard questions, and I think it's
[7:15] Speaker 1: important that we know where you've come from and where
[7:18] Speaker 1: you are now and what's happened happened in between. So
[7:23] Speaker 1: how many years did you do for the murder of Eden?
[7:26] Speaker 2: I did fourteen years. Yeah, that was the non parole period.
[7:29] Speaker 2: So I did fourteen years straight and my sentence was
[7:31] Speaker 2: eighteen years eight months. Right, so I'm on parole.
[7:34] Speaker 1: Now. When did you get out? I got out.
[7:36] Speaker 2: Nineteen months ago, roughly June twenty twenty four.
[7:40] Speaker 1: You pleaded guilty to murder. Now, I was a homicide
[7:43] Speaker 1: cop for a long time, and that's very rare. What
[7:46] Speaker 1: bought that one?
[7:47] Speaker 2: I was the first trial, I got a hung drey. Yeah,
[7:51] Speaker 2: and that trick kind of just messed me up because
[7:54] Speaker 2: I got on the stand and you know, I just
[7:56] Speaker 2: made up a story. Yeah, and I am a truthful guy,
[8:00] Speaker 2: and it impacted me so much, and just seeing his family,
[8:04] Speaker 2: seeing my family going through all this stuff, it kind
[8:08] Speaker 2: of just took everything that I owned, my energy, really
[8:11] Speaker 2: and by the second trial, about two weeks before the
[8:14] Speaker 2: second troll, for some reason, I just I asked I
[8:18] Speaker 2: put my name down to get a bible. Yeah, and
[8:21] Speaker 2: some lady came a week later, yelled out my name
[8:24] Speaker 2: and gave me his bible.
[8:26] Speaker 1: And I just started reading it.
[8:27] Speaker 2: But I only could read, probably at a year six level,
[8:30] Speaker 2: so I had no idea what I was reading. But
[8:33] Speaker 2: for some reason, I just read it every time I
[8:35] Speaker 2: was in my cell. And then it's kind of made
[8:37] Speaker 2: this vow to myself, and I said, I'm going to
[8:40] Speaker 2: take this Bible with me on this second trol and
[8:43] Speaker 2: just read it. And so the start of the second
[8:46] Speaker 2: trol happened, and I took a little blue Bible with me,
[8:48] Speaker 2: little gideons, and we'd get there very early, obviously before
[8:52] Speaker 2: court starts. I'd read it lunch breaks, morning tea breaks,
[8:55] Speaker 2: waiting for the truck. And I was already switched off
[8:59] Speaker 2: from day one on the true or like mentally, I
[9:01] Speaker 2: didn't want to be there, but I didn't know I
[9:05] Speaker 2: had to be there, so there's no way out right,
[9:09] Speaker 2: So I've got I've got to do this. And so
[9:12] Speaker 2: no one ready knew what was going on because I
[9:14] Speaker 2: can't talk to anybody except for the lawyer. I don't
[9:15] Speaker 2: even say it too much, but I just keept reading
[9:17] Speaker 2: his Bible and looking for something, and I came across
[9:22] Speaker 2: the verse or took me to a page number because
[9:24] Speaker 2: I saw the word freedom in the index, and it
[9:26] Speaker 2: took me to a page number and a book, a
[9:30] Speaker 2: passage in the Book of John which is, then you
[9:32] Speaker 2: will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.
[9:35] Speaker 2: I had no idea what that meant. I just saw truth,
[9:38] Speaker 2: I saw freedom, and I just mulled that over for
[9:43] Speaker 2: weeks and event and I had I knew there was
[9:49] Speaker 2: probably a big chance I could probably win this trial
[9:52] Speaker 2: after the after the first one.
[9:53] Speaker 1: I think that's reasonable.
[9:55] Speaker 2: Yeah, And the lawyers were pretty confident. And to be
[9:59] Speaker 2: very honest, I had vengeance in my heart, you know,
[10:02] Speaker 2: to go. And I thought if I get let out,
[10:06] Speaker 2: like I'm coming back, and I didn't want to do that.
[10:10] Speaker 2: I didn't want to hurt anyone else, but I was.
[10:14] Speaker 2: I had a severe vengeance in my heart. But I thought,
[10:17] Speaker 2: how what do I do? And I just took that
[10:22] Speaker 2: passage in the Bible and it just it just something
[10:25] Speaker 2: internally happened to me, and I came up with the
[10:29] Speaker 2: decision to plead guilty and then I had so I
[10:33] Speaker 2: sat on that for a couple of days and then
[10:36] Speaker 2: one day after morning, so I just told my lawyer
[10:38] Speaker 2: to come down after I have a chat and I
[10:41] Speaker 2: told him I want to play guilty.
[10:42] Speaker 1: And he just thought I was absolutely mad, and.
[10:45] Speaker 2: He told the judge I was sick that day, and
[10:47] Speaker 2: he sent me back to the jail. Think about it,
[10:49] Speaker 2: have a think about it. But my decision was made.
[10:51] Speaker 2: I came back. I just didn't care. I just like
[10:55] Speaker 2: everything was impacting me, watching Eden's family, my family. I
[11:01] Speaker 2: thought everyone gets closure, and I just felt this conviction
[11:05] Speaker 2: that I've got to plead guilty, you know, but I've
[11:07] Speaker 2: had I had to convince my solicitor. So he said
[11:11] Speaker 2: to me, you need to admit to me what you
[11:13] Speaker 2: did in this crime. And because my might I was
[11:16] Speaker 2: so drunk and blacked out, I've got like snippets of memory.
[11:19] Speaker 2: I couldn't tell you what happened. So I told him
[11:22] Speaker 2: what I do remember, and he just he's like, mane,
[11:25] Speaker 2: this is he gys. You got to sack me now
[11:27] Speaker 2: and we'll go to the third trill. And I said,
[11:29] Speaker 2: I'm not sacking you like we've got to. I'm going
[11:32] Speaker 2: on with.
[11:32] Speaker 1: This because you would have told him stuff that he's
[11:36] Speaker 1: now obliged to He definitely can't represent you because you
[11:39] Speaker 1: would have made admissions to him or something.
[11:43] Speaker 2: Enough information that I do remember that. We've got to
[11:45] Speaker 2: get to another trill and have another legal team.
[11:48] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[11:48] Speaker 2: So he was doing his due diligence, of course, but
[11:51] Speaker 2: I said, no, we're not going to do that. I'm
[11:53] Speaker 2: pleading guilty man. And he's like this, mate, you're going
[11:55] Speaker 2: to get so long, and I said, I don't care
[11:57] Speaker 2: what I get. We sat there through the perspects and
[12:01] Speaker 2: I said, you know my family, man, like my mom,
[12:04] Speaker 2: my dad, the heroin, the heroin us, the violence, the prison,
[12:08] Speaker 2: like I go, you know, my whole history. I said,
[12:11] Speaker 2: nobody takes responsibility for anything. And I want to break
[12:14] Speaker 2: the cycle today and I'm going to play guilty and
[12:16] Speaker 2: show my family that this is how we change. And
[12:19] Speaker 2: then he just he didn't know what to deal with that.
[12:21] Speaker 2: He sat back and he was tears in his eyes,
[12:25] Speaker 2: and he goes, only condition is I got to go
[12:27] Speaker 2: see the DPP and see if they, you know, write
[12:30] Speaker 2: here at least a decent fact sheet, and they did,
[12:34] Speaker 2: and I had to get up and get it rained again.
[12:36] Speaker 1: We will talk further further about that. Defense because I
[12:40] Speaker 1: said to Jessicaen's sister, I'd ask you things, and that's
[12:44] Speaker 1: the things that she wanted to ask that the family
[12:47] Speaker 1: wanted wanted to find out. But let's just take a
[12:50] Speaker 1: step back. Your childhood, tell us, tell us about your childhood.
[12:53] Speaker 2: Your children was wasn't good. So mum and dad were
[12:58] Speaker 2: both heroin addicts. So I was raised in addict's own.
[13:03] Speaker 2: First memories of living in a Waterloo and the big
[13:06] Speaker 2: house of the Commission Flats at Waterloo around four or
[13:08] Speaker 2: five years old, and just have for some reason, I
[13:11] Speaker 2: just remember my mom shooting up from about four years old.
[13:14] Speaker 2: You know, she used to do it in front of me.
[13:17] Speaker 2: I just thought I was too young. I wouldn't but
[13:20] Speaker 2: I just remember everything, and that's it.
[13:23] Speaker 1: That's your first saw the memory. So your mum, Yeah,
[13:26] Speaker 1: Mum always with me.
[13:27] Speaker 2: But I remember the torner car, I remember the spoon,
[13:30] Speaker 2: I remember the color of it. I remember everything, and
[13:33] Speaker 2: so I didn't know what that was. And then my
[13:37] Speaker 2: dad had a domestic with my mom around five years old.
[13:42] Speaker 2: I remember that in the kitchen and then he just
[13:45] Speaker 2: like he flogged her and then he just walked out
[13:47] Speaker 2: and then like I didn't really ever see I saw
[13:50] Speaker 2: it maybe a handful of times again in my life.
[13:52] Speaker 1: Okay, so how old were you? So five years old?
[13:55] Speaker 2: So I was just me and mum living in this
[13:58] Speaker 2: Any siblings I did, but to him had a brother
[14:01] Speaker 2: and a sister, but I like, I think I knew
[14:05] Speaker 2: them when I was really young.
[14:07] Speaker 1: They're not in my family.
[14:09] Speaker 2: Yeah, I was just with mum and I was just
[14:10] Speaker 2: me and her. But she'd moved us away from our
[14:13] Speaker 2: family like my grandfather and annies and uncles and not
[14:15] Speaker 2: because of her addiction and stuff.
[14:17] Speaker 1: So it was just me and her.
[14:19] Speaker 2: And then we moved into a spot at Surrey Hills
[14:22] Speaker 2: just year in a one bedroom studio and like no toilet,
[14:28] Speaker 2: no nothing, you know. And we met this my mom
[14:31] Speaker 2: met this other guy. And that's when we met this man.
[14:34] Speaker 2: Like my whole life just it just went. This ship man,
[14:37] Speaker 2: it changed.
[14:38] Speaker 1: Well it's not going too well, it's not going too
[14:41] Speaker 1: good already, but okay, so what happened to me?
[14:45] Speaker 2: So this is a new yeah, new partner. And I
[14:48] Speaker 2: remember he was always at King's Cross and we'd always
[14:50] Speaker 2: been in the cross. Mum's always going to pick up
[14:52] Speaker 2: or whatever. And I remember this dude and he's always
[14:55] Speaker 2: made me laugh. So I was kind of like, you know,
[14:57] Speaker 2: he's all right. But he asked me to go to
[14:59] Speaker 2: the footy, and then he is, I love footy. So
[15:01] Speaker 2: he took us to the footy and I convinced Mum
[15:03] Speaker 2: to let me let him take us. And I was
[15:05] Speaker 2: going into hospital because I was I was in hospital
[15:07] Speaker 2: for probably about four years on and off with some
[15:10] Speaker 2: stomach issues as a young blake. So I had to
[15:14] Speaker 2: go to hospital on the Monday. But he took us
[15:16] Speaker 2: to the footy on the Sunday and went to the footy.
[15:18] Speaker 2: He came home with us to this apartment or studio,
[15:21] Speaker 2: and then he took me to hospital the next day.
[15:23] Speaker 2: And I was in hospital for probably a couple of months,
[15:26] Speaker 2: and so like I kind of fell in love with
[15:27] Speaker 2: this guy because like my dad own dad's not coming.
[15:30] Speaker 2: This guy stepped in and he's telling me all the
[15:33] Speaker 2: all the things that young blake wants to hear. And
[15:36] Speaker 2: I was like, yeah, okay, I remember one day say
[15:39] Speaker 2: to me, he goes that guy is not your father,
[15:41] Speaker 2: he's your sperm doner. He's only father. And then when
[15:45] Speaker 2: I got out of hospital went home with him and
[15:46] Speaker 2: he was there.
[15:47] Speaker 1: We were talking up a good game, isn't it.
[15:49] Speaker 2: This guy was saying that, yeah, and he's telling me
[15:52] Speaker 2: like like it made me like fall in love with
[15:56] Speaker 2: this guy as a little boy, and I was I
[15:59] Speaker 2: thought I kicked the goal, you know, I got this
[16:01] Speaker 2: guy here's looking after me and mom. But then one
[16:05] Speaker 2: night he just still turned like he was a heroin
[16:08] Speaker 2: added to himself and an alcoholic and he's such a
[16:11] Speaker 2: charismatic guy. But then one night, I don't know what
[16:15] Speaker 2: it was, but he turned and then he just he
[16:18] Speaker 2: locked the door, dead locked the door, and he just
[16:21] Speaker 2: attacked mom like and he didn't he doesn't just attack
[16:24] Speaker 2: mom for like a couple of minutes. Like this guy's
[16:27] Speaker 2: all night, like twelve hours, beatings, like just the way
[16:32] Speaker 2: the psychological just talking to her like I've never seen
[16:38] Speaker 2: anything like it. So then that was that was a pattern.
[16:41] Speaker 2: Now it just kept happening all the time.
[16:43] Speaker 1: And how are we looking.
[16:45] Speaker 2: I'm six years old, right, so this yeah, and I
[16:47] Speaker 2: live in one room, so I see everything. I see
[16:50] Speaker 2: the whole thing. I can't get away.
[16:52] Speaker 1: There's no room for me.
[16:54] Speaker 2: So I kind of begin to shut down as as
[16:56] Speaker 2: a young kid, and I'm already struggling.
[16:58] Speaker 1: To learn at school. I'm always in hospital.
[17:01] Speaker 2: These two just take me all the way around Sydney
[17:03] Speaker 2: and to get on heroin and methadone clinics, Like this
[17:07] Speaker 2: is my life. You know.
[17:08] Speaker 1: Then what at that age, what happened when they're on
[17:10] Speaker 1: the not when they just look after yourself.
[17:13] Speaker 2: Yeah, like they're my memories. My dad and my mom's
[17:16] Speaker 2: sitting there. I know when they've had a shot because
[17:18] Speaker 2: they got the bathroom or whatever, or they do it,
[17:20] Speaker 2: or my mum would do it in front of me
[17:21] Speaker 2: and then my name. You know, pretty soon their heads
[17:26] Speaker 2: in the in their laps, and then on the Sydney
[17:29] Speaker 2: you know. And so I tried to run away, even
[17:31] Speaker 2: from that place there was only six. I don't know
[17:35] Speaker 2: how to go. I ran away for the day and
[17:36] Speaker 2: came back. And then one particular night like where he
[17:40] Speaker 2: got hectic, was Christmas Eve and then my stepfather said,
[17:44] Speaker 2: make sure you come and get me.
[17:45] Speaker 1: I'll mean it.
[17:45] Speaker 2: I'll be in the pub and we'll take you to
[17:47] Speaker 2: Santa Yeah. So mum, we went to every pub in
[17:51] Speaker 2: Surrey Hills and we couldn't find him. She said, I
[17:54] Speaker 2: don't worry, we just we'll just go. So we did
[17:57] Speaker 2: the san anything came back. And then sometime later that
[18:01] Speaker 2: night he came home, key in the lock. He deadlocks
[18:04] Speaker 2: at the door. I was asleep, but I was awake,
[18:08] Speaker 2: and but then I went to sleep and I woke
[18:12] Speaker 2: up just like this murderous screams.
[18:13] Speaker 1: Man like.
[18:16] Speaker 2: Screaming was normal now, but this was like Mom's going
[18:19] Speaker 2: to die. Mum is just screaming, man and had I
[18:24] Speaker 2: had a cupboard that was my wall, and my bed
[18:27] Speaker 2: was here, and I just looked out at the cupboard
[18:29] Speaker 2: and then my mum was naked and she's pregnant this
[18:33] Speaker 2: time with my sister. And he was just just blood everywhere,
[18:36] Speaker 2: and I don't know what he was doing, but he was.
[18:39] Speaker 2: I goed out to him, his dad, to stop, and
[18:42] Speaker 2: he just came over, dragged me out of the bed,
[18:44] Speaker 2: and for some reason, he sat me on his chair
[18:46] Speaker 2: and he tied.
[18:47] Speaker 1: Me to it.
[18:49] Speaker 2: And I'm just frozen with fear. You know, my mom's
[18:51] Speaker 2: like naked. His blood everywhere, and she's just like petrified.
[18:58] Speaker 2: Man and he for some reason, he like he would
[19:02] Speaker 2: had his knife, had a long knife and an orange handle.
[19:05] Speaker 2: Ever forget it, and it was quite blunt though, so
[19:08] Speaker 2: he'd stick like he'd cut up but not too deep,
[19:11] Speaker 2: and he just torture. And then he said to me, son,
[19:14] Speaker 2: I want you to laugh, And I said what, because
[19:18] Speaker 2: I want you to laugh, mate, if you don't, if
[19:20] Speaker 2: you'd laugh, I won't kill your sister and I won't
[19:23] Speaker 2: kill your mother.
[19:25] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[19:25] Speaker 2: So then he's like doing whatever he's doing with the
[19:27] Speaker 2: knife to my mom, and he's making me laugh watching
[19:29] Speaker 2: it and my mom before I laughed, my mom just
[19:31] Speaker 2: screened him. He said, laugh, Son, laugh, So I just
[19:34] Speaker 2: started laughing. Like then I blacked out. And then I
[19:38] Speaker 2: all remember later was that my dad was unconscious, like
[19:42] Speaker 2: from just I don't know what happened, and I had
[19:45] Speaker 2: to lift him off my mother and then dress my
[19:48] Speaker 2: mom and she was in a bad way, and I
[19:53] Speaker 2: actually walked to the Surreal's police station is already and
[19:56] Speaker 2: then my father was in charge with attempted murder and
[20:00] Speaker 2: and my mum ended up putting him in jail. But
[20:03] Speaker 2: then we take take me to visit him every week.
[20:06] Speaker 1: Okay, just let me unpack what you described there, because
[20:09] Speaker 1: that's yeah, there's domestic violence and all that, but that's
[20:13] Speaker 1: is extreme. That that is extreme. So you're tied to
[20:16] Speaker 1: a chair, is six seven years old. Your mum's been
[20:20] Speaker 1: bash She's screaming, yeah, you got this psychopath.
[20:24] Speaker 2: So when I woke up, he was actually raping her,
[20:27] Speaker 2: so like this is it just gets it's horrible.
[20:31] Speaker 1: And telling you to laugh or otherwise he's going to kill.
[20:34] Speaker 2: He's going to cut my sister out. His words were,
[20:36] Speaker 2: I'm going to kill your mother. What I just why
[20:40] Speaker 2: I did this to me?
[20:41] Speaker 1: Yeah, Like there's bad and then there's really bad, and
[20:46] Speaker 1: that's that's just pure evil. I can't even comprehend what
[20:50] Speaker 1: the fact that would have on you at that.
[20:52] Speaker 2: We'll definitely get into that. But he's he's still to
[20:56] Speaker 2: this day the most evil man I've ever come across.
[20:59] Speaker 2: And you know, been sitting in jail for a long time,
[21:01] Speaker 2: no one comes close.
[21:04] Speaker 1: So you've gone the police station rapport that he's been
[21:07] Speaker 1: in charge with the temp murder. Yeah, you're thinking that's
[21:11] Speaker 1: hopefully last year you see of him. But when he's
[21:14] Speaker 1: doing time for that crime on probably others your ms.
[21:17] Speaker 2: We're going to visit him, right And that that one
[21:20] Speaker 2: confused me too, because then he charms us again. He's
[21:23] Speaker 2: charming mom, he's charming me, and we never talk about
[21:26] Speaker 2: this again, me and mum we never raised it again.
[21:30] Speaker 2: And then Mum's like, and I had to give evidence
[21:32] Speaker 2: against my dad. And I remember my father saying to me.
[21:36] Speaker 2: He said to me, I know the cops are going
[21:37] Speaker 2: to try tell you to tell on me. And he
[21:40] Speaker 2: said to me, you just tell them what you needed
[21:43] Speaker 2: to do, son, And I go, Dad, I don't want
[21:45] Speaker 2: to do that because he already been training me. You
[21:48] Speaker 2: never talk, You're not a dog like this how he talked,
[21:50] Speaker 2: He's ingrained it into me, and then he's telling me
[21:52] Speaker 2: to do it. And I was like, I don't want
[21:54] Speaker 2: to do that, Dad, And then not until later in life,
[21:56] Speaker 2: I kind of knew what he was doing there. But
[21:59] Speaker 2: but then mum, you know, he manipulates mum. And Mum
[22:05] Speaker 2: gets on the stand and says he didn't do these things,
[22:07] Speaker 2: and he gets a no bill I think it was.
[22:10] Speaker 2: And he gets out and he gets released back to
[22:12] Speaker 2: our home.
[22:13] Speaker 1: After after all, after all that going through the court, we.
[22:16] Speaker 2: Came back to our house and then it goes on again.
[22:20] Speaker 1: So that would have taken a year or so.
[22:22] Speaker 2: Yeah, roughly, I'm not exactly sure, but.
[22:24] Speaker 1: We're looking at eight nine, yeah, years of age, and.
[22:28] Speaker 2: This comes back out and he's come back out and
[22:32] Speaker 2: he's promised the world to us, as they do. He's
[22:35] Speaker 2: a con man. We got emergency housing after that though,
[22:39] Speaker 2: like while he was in custody, so we went from
[22:41] Speaker 2: the little apartment to a like an apartment of two
[22:44] Speaker 2: three bedrooms.
[22:45] Speaker 1: And then my sister was born.
[22:47] Speaker 2: But my sister had so many complications because what happened
[22:50] Speaker 2: in the womb, She almost died a few times on
[22:53] Speaker 2: a hospital. And he got out. He was there for
[22:56] Speaker 2: the birth, so he got out for the birth, which
[23:00] Speaker 2: and then he actually they moved us and he moved
[23:03] Speaker 2: into the new.
[23:04] Speaker 1: House with us. So I got to love the system.
[23:07] Speaker 1: And then this happened all over again. So repeated the
[23:12] Speaker 1: domestic violence.
[23:13] Speaker 2: Yeah, and then the next one was he went to
[23:15] Speaker 2: Jokula again and it happened again.
[23:17] Speaker 1: What I'm just trying to get a sceense, And it
[23:21] Speaker 1: was probably hard because you can't even remember what you
[23:23] Speaker 1: were thinking or how you're looking at life at that age.
[23:26] Speaker 1: But I can't comprehend what you've just described and your
[23:30] Speaker 1: view on life, Like how did you function at school?
[23:33] Speaker 1: Did you have mates? Did you have well?
[23:35] Speaker 2: I was always the old one out at school because
[23:37] Speaker 2: we never had money. I never had food much. I
[23:40] Speaker 2: wass never had the uniform, so I always stood out.
[23:43] Speaker 2: I was always you know, looking look at different kid.
[23:49] Speaker 2: And then by that stage, I knew my life was different.
[23:51] Speaker 2: So I was kind of shut down. I didn't say
[23:54] Speaker 2: too much. The only time I really talked to him,
[23:56] Speaker 2: I played footy. Footy was the only thing that I
[23:58] Speaker 2: hung on to. And so I just started getting ultra
[24:02] Speaker 2: aggressive as a young kid. Yeah, and fighting, and I
[24:07] Speaker 2: just started stealing, fighting, just I shut down. I got
[24:11] Speaker 2: diagnosed with dyslexia, and as soon as I heard that
[24:14] Speaker 2: as a young blake, I just thought I'm stupid. Yeah,
[24:18] Speaker 2: so and I was getting taken the cchs all over
[24:20] Speaker 2: the joint from my mom, going to jails, coming out like,
[24:25] Speaker 2: I just completely shut down.
[24:26] Speaker 1: Man, you build up aggression, I would imagine, sure, and
[24:30] Speaker 1: so many different fronts of the home life. You're not
[24:34] Speaker 1: got the social skills to find some mates, and so
[24:38] Speaker 1: you start stealing, getting you in the fights, being aggressive.
[24:42] Speaker 1: I would imagine you like a ticking time bomb.
[24:45] Speaker 2: Yeah, Like I got expelled a new one for stealing.
[24:47] Speaker 2: I started stealing it six years old and then like,
[24:53] Speaker 2: and I'd fight kids as soon as I used to
[24:56] Speaker 2: get bullied early on. And then when I met this
[24:58] Speaker 2: guy must have fa he said, you're not going to
[25:01] Speaker 2: get bullied him. If they hurt you, hurt them and
[25:04] Speaker 2: he goes. But if you've become the bully, like old
[25:06] Speaker 2: bully you But then I'm like, I'm coming am your
[25:09] Speaker 2: bulliness all the time. So it was just all these mixed.
[25:11] Speaker 1: Messages advice from a psyca.
[25:13] Speaker 2: Yeah, and so then I became the bully. Yeah, like
[25:16] Speaker 2: I just took If I didn't have something.
[25:18] Speaker 1: I'd take it. But that's how I was. I was
[25:22] Speaker 1: doing this from six years old. You mentioned football, like
[25:24] Speaker 1: the team, sports and the environment didn't have any role models,
[25:27] Speaker 1: any male role models that Like.
[25:30] Speaker 2: My grandfather was always a really my mom's father, but
[25:33] Speaker 2: we never got the same much. But when he was
[25:35] Speaker 2: a very like you know, I loved him. I dored him,
[25:40] Speaker 2: and he was like my saving grace as a real
[25:42] Speaker 2: little bloke. And but also my oldest brother came into
[25:46] Speaker 2: my life, two older brothers from the logical now from.
[25:49] Speaker 1: The step father.
[25:50] Speaker 2: He had two sons, yeah, and they were like in
[25:53] Speaker 2: their mid twenties and one just kept going back in
[25:58] Speaker 2: down to jail and the other one did too. But
[26:00] Speaker 2: oldest one. He just kind of became like my father. Yeah,
[26:03] Speaker 2: he just never left me. And so like if I
[26:05] Speaker 2: didn't have that Blake, I'll probably be dead, you know.
[26:09] Speaker 2: So he just he knew what his father was, and
[26:13] Speaker 2: I think he just thought, I can't leave this kid.
[26:15] Speaker 1: Right, So he took that big brother.
[26:18] Speaker 2: Yeah, he really did, man, and he's still there today.
[26:22] Speaker 1: When did you start getting in trouble with the cops.
[26:25] Speaker 2: I think I first got arrested about eight years old. Yeah,
[26:29] Speaker 2: So we moved to another place. He was a commission
[26:31] Speaker 2: like community in our tirement, and then I just you know,
[26:34] Speaker 2: there's like hundreds of house the kids just you know,
[26:37] Speaker 2: lurking mums and dads on heroin or whatever. And so
[26:42] Speaker 2: I started hanging with older kids and then got in
[26:43] Speaker 2: a lot of trouble and started getting arrested eight years old.
[26:46] Speaker 1: Did you do any time in youth detention? No.
[26:49] Speaker 2: I always threatened to go, and they always gave me chances,
[26:53] Speaker 2: and I'd snap out of it a little bit. And
[26:55] Speaker 2: when footy season was on, I noticed when to look back,
[26:57] Speaker 2: footy season wasn't on, I'm getting a lot of trouble
[27:00] Speaker 2: when footy season's I know'd something to look forward to
[27:02] Speaker 2: channel and you know, just and I could be aggressive
[27:04] Speaker 2: on the field. And then I started to get good,
[27:07] Speaker 2: so I started to like, Okay, this is my way,
[27:09] Speaker 2: this is my way out.
[27:10] Speaker 1: What about from an education point of view, you diagnosed
[27:13] Speaker 1: has been dyslexic. Did you just shut down and just
[27:17] Speaker 1: behave to cover that up? Yeah?
[27:18] Speaker 2: I just completely shut down. I couldn't read it right properly.
[27:21] Speaker 2: I just completely shut soon as I heard the word dyslexic,
[27:23] Speaker 2: I just convinced myself from an idiot, I'm incapable of learning.
[27:27] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[27:28] Speaker 2: It h and when the violence at home, like I
[27:31] Speaker 2: just gave to school and just be like mute and
[27:35] Speaker 2: I just act out, you know, as soon as I
[27:38] Speaker 2: if I had reading class, act out.
[27:39] Speaker 1: I'm not reading. I can't kick Yeah, get kicked out
[27:41] Speaker 1: of class. Awesome. That's that was my life for school. Yeah.
[27:45] Speaker 1: It's a sad pattern, isn't a lot of kids do it?
[27:47] Speaker 1: Like you look back and you go it's going on. Yeah,
[27:51] Speaker 1: at the time, you think they're just being in the class.
[27:54] Speaker 2: Yeah, been a goose making life hard for everyone. But
[27:57] Speaker 2: they're hiding something. And I just never said anything. Yeah,
[28:00] Speaker 2: I was trained not to.
[28:02] Speaker 1: You spoke of your grandfather. As you're becoming a teenager,
[28:05] Speaker 1: did you have any dreams or ambitions or any any
[28:09] Speaker 1: idea what you wanted to do? Or you've grown up
[28:12] Speaker 1: with a lot of people who have been in and
[28:13] Speaker 1: out of jail. Did you think that was just your
[28:15] Speaker 1: natural progression? Yeah, there was two dreams.
[28:17] Speaker 2: Really, there was one dream since I was a little boy,
[28:20] Speaker 2: was just to play an oral.
[28:21] Speaker 1: Yeah, that was my dream.
[28:23] Speaker 2: I thought, that's it, that's the way, that's how I
[28:24] Speaker 2: get out of this. And if that failed, well, my
[28:27] Speaker 2: ride passage is gone to jail. So one footy ended,
[28:31] Speaker 2: that was it?
[28:32] Speaker 1: How did your foot the end? Did it get to
[28:34] Speaker 1: the point where you weren't going to cover at the
[28:37] Speaker 1: level or Yeah?
[28:37] Speaker 2: I started playing representative footy at fourteen, so mainly started
[28:40] Speaker 2: looking at me, started playing for him, went to development
[28:43] Speaker 2: squads Harold Matthew's SG bore and thought, okay, so you're
[28:47] Speaker 2: on the way.
[28:48] Speaker 1: On the way.
[28:49] Speaker 2: But then I started getting a knee injury and then
[28:54] Speaker 2: lost a lot of confidence and then obviously not talking
[28:56] Speaker 2: about what was going on inside of me either, and
[28:59] Speaker 2: I was already getting the rest a lot. I was
[29:01] Speaker 2: on curfews, I was going to court all the time,
[29:04] Speaker 2: and then I had my first job of alcohol and
[29:07] Speaker 2: then that was it. That was a spiral. Over the
[29:09] Speaker 2: next couple of years, I just lost the desire of
[29:13] Speaker 2: the one thing that all I ever wanted to do.
[29:16] Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a lot of a lot of stories of
[29:18] Speaker 1: people wasted talent where the drugs and the alcohol have
[29:22] Speaker 1: kicked in it those in those.
[29:24] Speaker 2: Years because I thought I've been never had a drug
[29:27] Speaker 2: with an alcohol ever. And then when I had my
[29:28] Speaker 2: first drink and started to get started to do it regularly,
[29:32] Speaker 2: I didn't feel like I was numb, but I actually
[29:35] Speaker 2: never knew how much pain and anger I was in
[29:39] Speaker 2: until I had the alcohol.
[29:40] Speaker 1: I was like, oh, I don't feel like that, Like
[29:42] Speaker 1: I feel happy, right, So that that was that was
[29:45] Speaker 1: the impact that they had on you.
[29:46] Speaker 2: Yeah, it wasn't because I liked it.
[29:48] Speaker 1: I hated it. I hate it. I still hate it.
[29:51] Speaker 2: Yeah, But at that at the beginning, it was like, oh,
[29:53] Speaker 2: I can block everything out. But then this it took
[29:57] Speaker 2: it took complete control over me.
[30:00] Speaker 1: How were you when you started drinking?
[30:01] Speaker 2: About fifteen and then didn't take over my life to
[30:06] Speaker 2: about eight eight months later, and I just eventually just
[30:09] Speaker 2: walked away from from everything right, and my stepfather actually
[30:15] Speaker 2: O d you did in two thousand and three on heroin,
[30:18] Speaker 2: and then that was it. His effect dying on me
[30:21] Speaker 2: was like, it was horrific, it was weird.
[30:24] Speaker 1: It taught me through that because he wasn't the greatest
[30:26] Speaker 1: role model in your life, had a profound effect on you.
[30:30] Speaker 2: I just never accepted what he did to me at
[30:32] Speaker 2: that point, you know, And for some reason I idolized him.
[30:36] Speaker 2: I just saw the good in him, still looking for
[30:38] Speaker 2: his love. Yeah, And then when he died three months later,
[30:41] Speaker 2: I went to juvie and then my life of jail began.
[30:44] Speaker 1: What sort of crimes was the alcohol induced.
[30:47] Speaker 2: And how co induced everything? Yeah, just violent crimes. There's
[30:50] Speaker 2: always violence, robberies, robbery's, robbery companies, and then just you know, violence.
[30:55] Speaker 1: Did And I know the type of person you are now,
[30:58] Speaker 1: And so I'm asking not how you look back now,
[31:00] Speaker 1: but how you looked at yourself at the time when
[31:03] Speaker 1: you If you bash someone and rob them, I would
[31:06] Speaker 1: imagine there, Yeah, the normal reaction is feel a little
[31:10] Speaker 1: bit of guilt. Some poor dudes just walking along the
[31:12] Speaker 1: road and you've flogged him and taken their wallet or whatever.
[31:16] Speaker 1: Did you have any conscience back then very rarely, so
[31:19] Speaker 1: I didn't even didn't give it a second thought, not much.
[31:22] Speaker 2: I was probably out my worst when I was about
[31:24] Speaker 2: fifteen or seventy eighth.
[31:26] Speaker 1: I was just like a tunnel vision. Well, yeah, I've
[31:30] Speaker 1: giving you a bit of a lifeline here. I think
[31:32] Speaker 1: we're all a little bit that way at that age.
[31:35] Speaker 1: Like you do something and you don't consider it was funny, Yeah,
[31:38] Speaker 1: you don't consider the consequences, all the impact that having on.
[31:41] Speaker 2: And I hated myself. I had no self worth. So
[31:45] Speaker 2: it's there was guilt definitely, like when I got caught. Yeah,
[31:49] Speaker 2: I just always own up.
[31:50] Speaker 1: Yeah it was me. It was like relief.
[31:53] Speaker 2: I think it was weird, but in the moment, yeah,
[31:57] Speaker 2: I just didn't.
[31:58] Speaker 1: I was just act out. Your offenses would have accumulated.
[32:02] Speaker 1: I imagine that. Then you went to JUVI. How long
[32:06] Speaker 1: did you get in there? Or I did five months?
[32:09] Speaker 2: I turned eighteen whereabout in common right, and then went
[32:12] Speaker 2: to Baxter and then turned eighteen and then got out
[32:17] Speaker 2: probably I think it was about four days after my
[32:19] Speaker 2: eighteenth and then went to jail eight days later.
[32:22] Speaker 1: Okay, so tell me about that. The experience in the
[32:26] Speaker 1: juvenile detention so you got in there sixteen. You're not
[32:31] Speaker 1: being judged in there like there's the people who are
[32:34] Speaker 1: in would have a lot of them would have had
[32:36] Speaker 1: the same mindset as you did.
[32:37] Speaker 2: Yeah, of June for me was great, Like I enjoyed
[32:40] Speaker 2: it great as in I was safe, I got fed,
[32:45] Speaker 2: like add a routine. I didn't have to worry about
[32:48] Speaker 2: where I'm eating, Who's going to hurt me.
[32:51] Speaker 1: It was an easier life. It was comfort.
[32:53] Speaker 2: It was something that I never had. I never had
[32:55] Speaker 2: the structure and routine. So for me, I really craved that.
[32:59] Speaker 1: It's sad, isn't it that the environment can give you
[33:03] Speaker 1: the security you're looking.
[33:04] Speaker 2: For, Like I share it to you. When I walked out, Yeah,
[33:06] Speaker 2: I didn't want to leave, like I really didn't, man,
[33:09] Speaker 2: not until later in life and I was reflecting. I thought,
[33:12] Speaker 2: no kid should have wanted to be in there, and
[33:14] Speaker 2: I wanted to be there, you know.
[33:16] Speaker 1: So, Okay, so they've released you when you've you've turned
[33:19] Speaker 1: eighteen and you've hit the streets, We've I haven't learned
[33:23] Speaker 1: any lessons other than probably how to do crime a
[33:26] Speaker 1: little bit better, and you've still got the anger issues.
[33:30] Speaker 2: I was fine, and I was always fighting in Juli.
[33:33] Speaker 2: But then when I got out, I just went on
[33:36] Speaker 2: a bender. I got drunk for eight days, wake up
[33:40] Speaker 2: in a police station.
[33:42] Speaker 1: Whether you're done in those eight days.
[33:44] Speaker 2: So they said, I don't even have a memory of that.
[33:45] Speaker 2: So it started back then, aggravated Robert, three of us
[33:49] Speaker 2: and who it was a shop and barely I didn't
[33:53] Speaker 2: even remember it. I just remembered waking up in the
[33:56] Speaker 2: police station.
[33:56] Speaker 1: So you drink the point of blackout, yeah, back.
[33:59] Speaker 2: Then, definitely to the point of blackout, and then just
[34:02] Speaker 2: wake up and you find out what you've done.
[34:04] Speaker 1: How what was the consequences of that?
[34:07] Speaker 2: I got five years and three years. I got a
[34:10] Speaker 2: three year sentence in and two year parole. So I
[34:12] Speaker 2: got out when I was twenty one.
[34:14] Speaker 1: Where did you do your time?
[34:15] Speaker 2: So I did my did the Young Offenders program a
[34:17] Speaker 2: John Moroney and went through the Oberon process and did
[34:22] Speaker 2: the works release and went home after three years. So
[34:26] Speaker 2: on remand silk Water paramatter park Lee.
[34:28] Speaker 1: How was that going in the eighteen because it's a
[34:31] Speaker 1: different level, different environment, going from juvene the older team,
[34:35] Speaker 1: it's a different adult prison. How did you cape with
[34:39] Speaker 1: that and how did you feel?
[34:40] Speaker 2: It was like a real weird feeling because it's like
[34:42] Speaker 2: I never left juvieyeh. And I was with two other people,
[34:45] Speaker 2: so carle offenders. I wasn't alone, which kind of helped.
[34:49] Speaker 2: You're not as fearful. Yeah, you got to jail as
[34:52] Speaker 2: a kid. I was an eighteen year old little seventy
[34:55] Speaker 2: k whip it, so you know, I'm going in there,
[34:58] Speaker 2: and was always anxiety and fear. And then but then
[35:02] Speaker 2: as soon as I got in there, I recognized majority
[35:05] Speaker 2: of these guys, so the guys my age, and I
[35:08] Speaker 2: was like, oh okay, so I just it's just the
[35:12] Speaker 2: next level on the secondary school. Yeah, just keep moving forward.
[35:16] Speaker 2: And then then you go to the young offender's place
[35:18] Speaker 2: under twenty five is and you're just all the same
[35:19] Speaker 2: age doing it.
[35:21] Speaker 1: Is there anything that could have could have changed you?
[35:23] Speaker 1: Like at that point in time when you're in Nah,
[35:27] Speaker 1: I wasn't listening to anyone.
[35:28] Speaker 2: I just thought being sober for three years and getting
[35:31] Speaker 2: my head right training every day. I eventually got a
[35:34] Speaker 2: year ten certificate in that time, so it's a little
[35:37] Speaker 2: bit of got an education and you know that the
[35:40] Speaker 2: ignorance of me thought, oh I'm sweet. And then as
[35:43] Speaker 2: soon as you step out I was able to get
[35:45] Speaker 2: a job and I had a girlfriend. Life is pretty good.
[35:48] Speaker 2: But then I never addressed any issue. So then they
[35:50] Speaker 2: started the resurface again.
[35:52] Speaker 1: Tell us like, that's where I think a lot of
[35:54] Speaker 1: mistakes are made. Like you've done your stint in prison.
[35:57] Speaker 1: Ideal situation is that, Okay, you're going to come out
[36:01] Speaker 1: and turn your life around. I get the sense when
[36:04] Speaker 1: you released, you did your three years. Yep. I get
[36:08] Speaker 1: the sense when you released, you didn't have a game plan.
[36:11] Speaker 1: You just yeah, okay, open the gates, let me out,
[36:14] Speaker 1: and let's see what happens. Everybody obvious what's going to happen.
[36:18] Speaker 1: That's why we've got the high recidivism.
[36:20] Speaker 2: What I'm saying, I'll start my new life and prepare
[36:22] Speaker 2: everything to day get out. And I learned that this time,
[36:26] Speaker 2: Like all the mistakes that I've made, I've reflected later on.
[36:29] Speaker 2: But yeah, I just thought I'll start life when I
[36:31] Speaker 2: get out. I thought I've got a job.
[36:34] Speaker 1: Sweet.
[36:34] Speaker 2: Yeah, but you know that's like the foolish.
[36:38] Speaker 1: What what was what was the job?
[36:39] Speaker 2: You're going, I'll just work in a roofing factory. Yeah,
[36:42] Speaker 2: so open and shut roofing. Where I made of mind
[36:44] Speaker 2: was working and he's the boss.
[36:46] Speaker 1: Let me in.
[36:46] Speaker 2: I started working there. I hated jobs. The first week
[36:48] Speaker 2: I got out of jail and in a routine, loving life,
[36:52] Speaker 2: I thought really changed my life here.
[36:56] Speaker 1: Did you think you were going to make it go?
[36:57] Speaker 1: Did you?
[36:58] Speaker 2: I really did, because I hated you. I didn't want
[37:01] Speaker 2: to get back and I had a clear mind. I
[37:05] Speaker 2: had a goal, like just to work and try to
[37:08] Speaker 2: But as soon as I started drinking again slowly it
[37:12] Speaker 2: took about nine months, and I just started to go
[37:15] Speaker 2: back to old habits, you know, start hanging around the
[37:18] Speaker 2: same people again.
[37:18] Speaker 1: Did you at any point in time look at you
[37:21] Speaker 1: your drinking and think, okay, this is where it all
[37:23] Speaker 1: goes bad.
[37:24] Speaker 2: Yeah, I hated drinking. I actually hated drinking.
[37:27] Speaker 1: Did you consider getting help like AA or.
[37:29] Speaker 2: I never knew how to ask to help me, and
[37:31] Speaker 2: I always it was always ingrained in me. You asked
[37:34] Speaker 2: to help you weak? So I was always fighting that
[37:36] Speaker 2: I wanted help, but I had no idea how to
[37:39] Speaker 2: ask for it, and nobody like I just It took many,
[37:45] Speaker 2: many years for me to finally say I need I
[37:47] Speaker 2: need help, you know, but there's I would have. I
[37:49] Speaker 2: wasn't listening to anybody. And I was just so hard
[37:52] Speaker 2: headed at ship my shoulder. There's no way I want
[37:55] Speaker 2: to express anybody that I need help.
[37:57] Speaker 1: Did you have anyone on the outside, anyone gave you
[38:00] Speaker 1: a clip over the year and said, mate, if you drink,
[38:03] Speaker 1: you're another good person. And you drink, your life is
[38:06] Speaker 1: going to be destroyed. Was there any any support in
[38:08] Speaker 1: that way?
[38:09] Speaker 2: My older brother tried to, but he's drinking himself, he's
[38:12] Speaker 2: living his life.
[38:13] Speaker 1: So and I was just and no one.
[38:16] Speaker 2: Really was kind of kind of game enough to say
[38:17] Speaker 2: to me, you know, and like I would have just just.
[38:21] Speaker 1: You know, aunt least on them. I'm not an expert
[38:24] Speaker 1: on the addiction alcohol, whether it's alcohol or drugs or whatever,
[38:27] Speaker 1: but I've spoken to enough people sitting opposite you that
[38:30] Speaker 1: have gone down the path, and a lot of them say,
[38:33] Speaker 1: you've got to fix the cause, to fix the drinking
[38:36] Speaker 1: or the addiction, and taking on board what you said
[38:40] Speaker 1: earlier on will you find him relief from your fucked
[38:43] Speaker 1: up life to a degree, Oh okay, let's just get
[38:46] Speaker 1: it on the drink and all the pain goes away.
[38:48] Speaker 2: All the pain goes away. But that's why I like
[38:50] Speaker 2: to going to jail too. Yeah, because I didn't have
[38:53] Speaker 2: to drink and it was taken away from me. I'm
[38:56] Speaker 2: not a really drug taker, so in jail, I was like,
[39:00] Speaker 2: I can just be normal. So it was such a
[39:04] Speaker 2: warped mentality. I didn't feel normal less I was back
[39:07] Speaker 2: in jail, ye, like because I didn't want to hurt
[39:10] Speaker 2: anybody anymore, even from it, Like around that age, I
[39:13] Speaker 2: was like, I just got to jail, and I that's
[39:15] Speaker 2: three years I was out after I was twenty one. Yeah,
[39:18] Speaker 2: Like there's times there like I want to go jael
[39:21] Speaker 2: Like I even I even got myself arrested and begged
[39:23] Speaker 2: the police to refuse me to go jail because I
[39:26] Speaker 2: was I knew that I was something's wrong with me.
[39:28] Speaker 1: Just talk talk us through that, Like that must be
[39:31] Speaker 1: hard hard to come to terms with the fact that hey,
[39:35] Speaker 1: I need to be locked up something.
[39:37] Speaker 2: And I went to the police station, had got it
[39:41] Speaker 2: was on the pissing manly with my missus, got blind drunk,
[39:44] Speaker 2: had fights and security guards and whatnot. I snapped out
[39:48] Speaker 2: if it got out of the pub and I said, man,
[39:49] Speaker 2: I'm going and she's like, where are you going? So
[39:52] Speaker 2: I'm going at jail and then like she was trying
[39:55] Speaker 2: to pull me and push me, and I slapped her. Yeah,
[39:58] Speaker 2: I said, and I just and I ran from the
[40:02] Speaker 2: Staying hotel to the Manly police station and then my
[40:05] Speaker 2: brother was with me, and I took my watch off
[40:08] Speaker 2: from a wallet gave it to him a week going.
[40:09] Speaker 2: And so I'm going to jail and we're in the
[40:11] Speaker 2: police station and the cops like comes out, He's like,
[40:15] Speaker 2: what are you doing? And I grabbed the cop by
[40:17] Speaker 2: the collar. I said, if you don't arrest me, you
[40:19] Speaker 2: want to knock you out. And my brother's like just
[40:22] Speaker 2: flipping out, saying he's on ice. And this cop was
[40:24] Speaker 2: just I don't think he's ever come across anything lot
[40:27] Speaker 2: that in his life. And then one of the coppers
[40:30] Speaker 2: came out. He kind of knew me from the gym.
[40:32] Speaker 2: I said come in here, and I said, I'll come
[40:34] Speaker 2: into the dock. As long as you refuse me, I'll
[40:37] Speaker 2: tell you a crime that I've committed just now. I
[40:38] Speaker 2: slapped my missus and then he just thought I was
[40:41] Speaker 2: crazy and I was blind drunk, and he said just
[40:44] Speaker 2: go to sleep, and I said no, no, no, you have
[40:45] Speaker 2: to charge me. And he promised me that he would
[40:47] Speaker 2: charged me, and refused me, and I woke up and
[40:50] Speaker 2: then the female cops like, wake up, he's been bailed.
[40:55] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[40:56] Speaker 2: And then that was in February Australia Day. And in
[41:00] Speaker 2: June I went to Jarf Murder right, So I knew
[41:03] Speaker 2: something was wrong with me and that was my cry
[41:05] Speaker 2: for help, but I didn't know how to ask for help.
[41:08] Speaker 2: And I got released from the from the cells, went
[41:10] Speaker 2: straight home, my missus slapping me.
[41:13] Speaker 1: What did you have for? Were you getting any professional help?
[41:17] Speaker 2: I never spoke to anybody, and it was your mum
[41:20] Speaker 2: still in the mum. I was living at mum's house
[41:22] Speaker 2: of the time. Yeah, and she's still in her mate Yeah,
[41:26] Speaker 2: tops of relationship there, so she's in her own Hell,
[41:29] Speaker 2: I'm in mind.
[41:30] Speaker 1: The whole family were. So this is just in the
[41:34] Speaker 1: sequence of events. We know you've done your time in
[41:37] Speaker 1: juvenile You've you've got that, you're locked up eight days
[41:40] Speaker 1: after spent three years in prison, and then you're out.
[41:44] Speaker 1: The incident you just talked about then was two years
[41:47] Speaker 1: out of prison, three years out for three years. What
[41:51] Speaker 1: other type of stuff were you're doing in the in
[41:53] Speaker 1: the lead up to this.
[41:55] Speaker 2: Oh, by that time, I was fully living a criminal life.
[41:58] Speaker 1: You weren't working, so just that time stealing.
[42:01] Speaker 2: Or I was just doing I was just making money,
[42:04] Speaker 2: and I wasn't doing good things.
[42:06] Speaker 1: I wasn't hanging good people.
[42:08] Speaker 2: I was locked in to that world and just taking
[42:12] Speaker 2: time by me.
[42:13] Speaker 1: Well, I suppose the inevitable, inevitable happens. And if I
[42:19] Speaker 1: looked at you, if I was looking at from a
[42:21] Speaker 1: CoP's point of view, and I'm looking at the history,
[42:22] Speaker 1: and Okay, what's saying the amount of time before he
[42:25] Speaker 1: does something bad that's going to put him away for
[42:27] Speaker 1: a long time, And oh for sure, that's actually actually
[42:30] Speaker 1: what happened. So with the lead up to the murder
[42:36] Speaker 1: of Eden Brown, what was your mindset? I think you've
[42:40] Speaker 1: explained it to a degree, but I'm just trying to man.
[42:44] Speaker 1: I didn't care if I lived a diet. You know.
[42:47] Speaker 1: I was in a dark place.
[42:48] Speaker 2: I was like I think I held on till twenty four,
[42:53] Speaker 2: Like through all the trauma and all the shit that
[42:55] Speaker 2: I went through, I never spoke. And by the age
[43:00] Speaker 2: of twenty four, I think I just it all came out.
[43:03] Speaker 2: I was going to die, yeah, or go to jail
[43:06] Speaker 2: for a very long time, and I think I just burst.
[43:09] Speaker 2: Everything was I broke.
[43:11] Speaker 1: Is it? It was an anger building up inside you.
[43:15] Speaker 2: Yeah, there was, man, there's hate and rage, Like I
[43:18] Speaker 2: don't think I've ever met anyone as angry as me.
[43:20] Speaker 1: Yeah, and full of rage. So would that play out
[43:23] Speaker 1: if someone just bumped you the wrong way or disrespected
[43:25] Speaker 1: you or.
[43:26] Speaker 2: Yeah, like I wasn't like too much. I'm a loyal guy,
[43:29] Speaker 2: I love my mates.
[43:30] Speaker 1: I'm normal.
[43:31] Speaker 2: But then if it clicks up, that's it. We're on.
[43:34] Speaker 1: And I just gave all got friends like that, glazed
[43:37] Speaker 1: eyes come over and.
[43:38] Speaker 2: Yeah see later. You know, anything could happen.
[43:43] Speaker 1: What happened the night Eden was killed just a normal night. Man.
[43:48] Speaker 2: I just went down to a mate's mind, as he
[43:50] Speaker 2: called me, just for a couple of beers down, you know,
[43:54] Speaker 2: fifteen minutes in my house. Yeah, And that was in
[43:57] Speaker 2: the afternoon sometime, And I rocked up with a case
[44:00] Speaker 2: and bottle with a made of mine and we just
[44:04] Speaker 2: started drinking. It was just normal, you know, there wasn't anything.
[44:09] Speaker 2: Then people just kept coming and going and coming. Yeah,
[44:13] Speaker 2: it just started like a gathering and then eventually, you know,
[44:16] Speaker 2: there was nearly up to thirty to forty people there.
[44:18] Speaker 1: I reckon at one.
[44:19] Speaker 2: Time and by the time. I remember, like it's probably
[44:25] Speaker 2: like ten o'clock and I was waiting for my missus
[44:26] Speaker 2: to come about twelve o'clock. She was coming after work,
[44:30] Speaker 2: so I thought I'd just stayed. I was just drink
[44:32] Speaker 2: till then and then I'll head off. But then it
[44:36] Speaker 2: just all went pair shape, man, Like I was so blind, Okay.
[44:42] Speaker 2: I just remember sitting in the garage. Everyone was drinking.
[44:44] Speaker 2: A lot of guys are on coconut, but I didn't
[44:46] Speaker 2: take any cacineying. And I remember like Eden wasn't there
[44:51] Speaker 2: until maybe like later in the night, tenish eleven ish,
[44:56] Speaker 2: and I remember getting asked that to bring it eat
[45:00] Speaker 2: and I said, no, no, don't bring eating him in,
[45:02] Speaker 2: Like this is not he's scene, man, And I just
[45:05] Speaker 2: knew like something pop off, And I said, no, no,
[45:11] Speaker 2: I don't.
[45:11] Speaker 1: Bring it me here.
[45:12] Speaker 2: And I didn't want to call him, and like nobody
[45:15] Speaker 2: knows this stuff but and I won't say names or anything,
[45:19] Speaker 2: but and they kept saying to me, calling, you know,
[45:22] Speaker 2: and eventually I just got so drunk I said call him.
[45:27] Speaker 2: And I remember Eating saying to me, are you going
[45:29] Speaker 2: to be there? I said, yeah, I'm here, I'm here
[45:32] Speaker 2: to about midnight. Then I'm going. I said, He's like,
[45:35] Speaker 2: I only come if you come. I don't trust no one.
[45:38] Speaker 2: I don't trust these guys. I said, yeah, and I've
[45:42] Speaker 2: said whatever I said to him, and he came. He
[45:43] Speaker 2: came with I think, three girls, and everything's no worries, drinking.
[45:49] Speaker 1: Fun, this normal stuff.
[45:52] Speaker 2: And then I remember going outside and I was blind, man,
[45:57] Speaker 2: and went to the toilet which is chucked the leak
[46:00] Speaker 2: in the backyard. And then as I picked up my
[46:03] Speaker 2: beard turned around. You know, I just see a fight,
[46:06] Speaker 2: which is normal. I didn't think any of it, and
[46:10] Speaker 2: then I realized it was eating and he's getting getting attacked,
[46:14] Speaker 2: and and that's where I black out, man. And then
[46:19] Speaker 2: after that, I just hear screams. After I black out,
[46:22] Speaker 2: I've come to somehow. I remember someone grabbing me or something,
[46:27] Speaker 2: not a hut him sent sure, man, I just remember
[46:29] Speaker 2: snapping out of whatever I was in, and you know,
[46:35] Speaker 2: I heard these screams and I saw Eden run away
[46:41] Speaker 2: and he ran through a fence, a color bond fence, like.
[46:43] Speaker 1: You know, he's fear for his life.
[46:45] Speaker 2: And I remember that, and then we just left and
[46:52] Speaker 2: then went to two other houses after that, and I
[46:56] Speaker 2: just thought oh yeah, okay, punch on think getting of
[47:00] Speaker 2: it again. And I've got no blood on me or
[47:02] Speaker 2: anything like that. And then I just continued to drink,
[47:08] Speaker 2: just kept drinking.
[47:09] Speaker 1: And then.
[47:11] Speaker 2: It was like maybe six o'clock in the morning or something,
[47:14] Speaker 2: and I was at this house and they said a
[47:16] Speaker 2: couple of guys got arrested.
[47:18] Speaker 1: At the scene.
[47:19] Speaker 2: And I was like, okay, why just for the fight,
[47:22] Speaker 2: and they're like yeah, and I was like okay. And
[47:25] Speaker 2: then one of the ladies that was at the house
[47:27] Speaker 2: was ringing the hospitals and I was like okay. And
[47:30] Speaker 2: then finally around the hospital and they said, you know,
[47:32] Speaker 2: Eaton Brown's passed away.
[47:34] Speaker 1: I was like, all right.
[47:36] Speaker 2: Couldn't put my head like, I couldn't understand how because
[47:40] Speaker 2: I had no idea that he'd been stabbed at that time.
[47:43] Speaker 2: So I left started sober and I was like, what's
[47:46] Speaker 2: I couldn't get any answers, and I just had this
[47:51] Speaker 2: feeling like, all right, they're coming for me. I didn't
[47:53] Speaker 2: really know why they're coming for me.
[47:54] Speaker 1: I just.
[47:57] Speaker 2: Had this feeling and I knew the guys I was
[48:00] Speaker 2: they're going to say it to me anyway. And I
[48:04] Speaker 2: watched the news that night and they said even the
[48:07] Speaker 2: men died at a house party being stabbed.
[48:10] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[48:10] Speaker 2: And then I found out he'd been stabbed and I
[48:11] Speaker 2: was like okay, and I was just waiting and I
[48:14] Speaker 2: was like okay. But the police didn't raide out any
[48:17] Speaker 2: my like my mum's house, my brother's house, or anyone
[48:19] Speaker 2: till the Monday. I think it's happened on the sturdy
[48:21] Speaker 2: or something. And then on Monday I got the call
[48:24] Speaker 2: from one of my brothers say, mate, they've raided out
[48:28] Speaker 2: these houses for you for murder. And I said okay,
[48:32] Speaker 2: so pretty much. Then I just got drunk until they
[48:34] Speaker 2: arrested me in King's Cross for three weeks.
[48:37] Speaker 1: How long after three weeks? Okay. So my understanding of
[48:41] Speaker 1: it only going through information that was contained in the
[48:45] Speaker 1: media about the time that there was the fight at
[48:47] Speaker 1: the party and that he was he was stabbed twice. Yeah,
[48:52] Speaker 1: and you have pleaded guilty to it. No one else
[48:56] Speaker 1: has been, no one else has been charged in relation
[48:58] Speaker 1: to it. So and I take on board what you
[49:02] Speaker 1: said during that second trial to your solicitor obviously was
[49:08] Speaker 1: incriminating against you. That's why I had to take it off.
[49:12] Speaker 1: I've said, I've seen fights I've seen drunken fights, I've
[49:15] Speaker 1: seen stuff. Stuff has happened. I haven't haven't seen it
[49:18] Speaker 1: to that extent in my personal life, but I've seen
[49:21] Speaker 1: that in my policing life where someone ends up dead.
[49:25] Speaker 1: Did you at that point in time leading up to
[49:28] Speaker 1: it where you tried to hand yourself into the cops
[49:31] Speaker 1: you were concerned you were going to do something stupid?
[49:34] Speaker 1: Stupid is a nice way of putting it, but yeah,
[49:36] Speaker 1: you were going to cause some damage. The knife, the
[49:39] Speaker 1: knife that was used for the murder. Did you bring
[49:42] Speaker 1: the knife.
[49:43] Speaker 2: To the I never carried my knife a knife in
[49:46] Speaker 2: my life. Yeah, where I was just that knife was
[49:48] Speaker 2: from the from the kitchen I was out of the block.
[49:52] Speaker 1: It's a steak knife.
[49:53] Speaker 2: And I don't even know I remember that knife being
[49:56] Speaker 2: in the garage because I was opening coronas with it.
[49:59] Speaker 2: Because it's no ballo. That's why the reason the knife
[50:01] Speaker 2: was in the garage, right, That's what I do know. Yeah,
[50:05] Speaker 2: when I was a knife to that that took his life.
[50:09] Speaker 1: Did you did you have any injuries from the from.
[50:12] Speaker 2: The fight that you didn't have a drop of blood? Right,
[50:14] Speaker 2: didn't have an injury?
[50:15] Speaker 1: When you found out he died? And you were thinking
[50:18] Speaker 1: that the police are going to come after you. And
[50:23] Speaker 1: clearly from what you told your your solicitor and embarrassed,
[50:27] Speaker 1: you had some recollection of it. Do you recall being
[50:30] Speaker 1: in the fight at all or what the anger? What?
[50:32] Speaker 2: I definitely I know and towards the fight. Yeah, And
[50:36] Speaker 2: obviously I'm blacked out at that stage. And you know,
[50:40] Speaker 2: and Eden said that I stabbed him, yeah, before he.
[50:43] Speaker 1: Died, right, So in a dying deposition.
[50:46] Speaker 2: Yeah, dying declaration he said, Anthony Jones stabbed me.
[50:48] Speaker 1: Right. I wanted to ask how you feel, but just
[50:52] Speaker 1: piecing it all together, and yeah, if I was sitting
[50:55] Speaker 1: and this is uncomfortable, We're in a podcast. If I'm
[50:59] Speaker 1: sitting in the Yeah, an interview room is a homicide detective.
[51:02] Speaker 1: I'm asking you a few more questions. Will how the
[51:05] Speaker 1: knife get into your hand? That that type of stuff?
[51:08] Speaker 1: When the cops arrested you, did you participate in an interview?
[51:12] Speaker 2: Has refused to speak, right, So, which is you're right?
[51:16] Speaker 2: And I've never spoke to it now, right, this is
[51:18] Speaker 2: the first time anybody's going to hear anything.
[51:20] Speaker 1: This is the first time. Man, when you first when
[51:22] Speaker 1: did you first find find out that ed had passed
[51:25] Speaker 1: away when the girl fanned the hospital, when the girl
[51:27] Speaker 1: found the hospital here, and I would ask you if
[51:31] Speaker 1: we're seeing in an interview room, like why do you
[51:34] Speaker 1: think you were the person responsible for it? Yeah?
[51:37] Speaker 2: I don't know what the police really said to me.
[51:39] Speaker 2: They asked me like questions. I remember, but and know
[51:41] Speaker 2: what they were How to sit now, I'm not talking
[51:43] Speaker 2: just charge me taking back to the doc. That's as
[51:47] Speaker 2: far as I went. I knew that I was going
[51:48] Speaker 2: to say anything I would.
[51:49] Speaker 1: I would imagine that if given the fact that they
[51:53] Speaker 1: did charge you with it, You've got the dying declaration
[51:55] Speaker 1: that Edan has said that you stabbed him, and there
[51:59] Speaker 1: would have been witnesses at the party. I would suggest
[52:02] Speaker 1: some of the witnesses with the set I've seen nothing
[52:04] Speaker 1: when they might have, but there must have been some
[52:07] Speaker 1: witnesses that that gave some evidence about what took place.
[52:11] Speaker 2: Yeah, someone there was a few crowd witnesses against me. Yeah,
[52:17] Speaker 2: but no one saw the crime. No one conclusively said
[52:22] Speaker 2: what they saw could say it was me.
[52:24] Speaker 1: In the circumstances like that where mid Trill and then
[52:28] Speaker 1: the solicitors talking to the DPP and what we would
[52:32] Speaker 1: call it settled settle on some agreed facts. Yeah, so
[52:36] Speaker 1: the facts would be okay your side, you've been the
[52:40] Speaker 1: defense and the prosecutor agreed that these are the facts
[52:43] Speaker 1: of what's occurred with this incident. Were you comfortable with
[52:47] Speaker 1: the agreed facts? Yeah? I didn't really.
[52:50] Speaker 2: I don't think I read it, but I didn't really
[52:53] Speaker 2: process it.
[52:54] Speaker 1: But you had this solicit Yeah, he read.
[52:57] Speaker 2: Yeah, he really did. He went above and beyond me. Yeah. Right,
[53:00] Speaker 2: he's a decent man, and yeah, like yeah, he really,
[53:06] Speaker 2: he really believed in me and helped me as much as.
[53:08] Speaker 1: He could going over what we've talked about. You're taking
[53:12] Speaker 1: responsibility for it, for sure. Yeah, okay, it's me, all right.
[53:17] Speaker 2: There was never a premeditation, man, Yeah, I never had
[53:20] Speaker 2: any There's never a thought in my mind to kill,
[53:22] Speaker 2: to kill anybody or even that night.
[53:25] Speaker 1: That's a that's a frustration I got as a homicide detective.
[53:30] Speaker 1: How many times and people go murderers that they've planned it,
[53:35] Speaker 1: they're doing this, and the even and this might oh
[53:40] Speaker 1: I won't say annoy, but people might disagree. Where people
[53:45] Speaker 1: say mandatory sentences in murder or if you murder someone
[53:49] Speaker 1: you should get life. There's a lot of different types
[53:51] Speaker 1: of murders that people don't quite understand, and knives. I
[53:57] Speaker 1: often see that. I've seen people get stabbed twenty times
[54:00] Speaker 1: and they don't die. Yeah, and then I see people
[54:02] Speaker 1: that get stabbed once a couple of teenagers and someone
[54:06] Speaker 1: pulls out a pen knife and stabs and they die.
[54:10] Speaker 1: That's the risk inherited with if you do do you
[54:15] Speaker 1: use a weapon. But yeah, it must be difficult for
[54:19] Speaker 1: you sitting here talking about it. I'm sitting here from
[54:22] Speaker 1: a homicide to take this point of view going I
[54:24] Speaker 1: want to go here, I want to go there, and
[54:25] Speaker 1: all that. But I appreciate you you've been open and
[54:30] Speaker 1: talking about it. We'll take a break now when we
[54:33] Speaker 1: get back. I did tell you that Eden's sister representing
[54:37] Speaker 1: the family, had a few things that she wanted me
[54:40] Speaker 1: to ask you. And I think we also need to
[54:43] Speaker 1: clarify why we're sitting down and talking is that one
[54:47] Speaker 1: of the things that's impressed me is how you have
[54:50] Speaker 1: turned your life around and the direction your life is
[54:52] Speaker 1: on now. And we're going to talk about that at
[54:55] Speaker 1: length because it's very rare that someone comes in to
[54:58] Speaker 1: a situation like this with a person like me and
[55:02] Speaker 1: sits down and talks about what we're talking about. So
[55:06] Speaker 1: let's have a break. It's a heavy, heavy conversation. There
[55:09] Speaker 1: is some there is some light at the end of
[55:11] Speaker 1: the tunnel. I'll say that, otherwise people mightn't come back.
[55:14] Speaker 1: It sounds good.

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