# Life as a sovereign citizen: Brodie Finegan Forbes Pt. 1

An episode of [I Catch Killers with Gary Jubelin](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1506667049), 25 Apr 2026, 57 min.

Audio: https://p.podderapp.com/2544644999/traffic.omny.fm/d/clips/2fb3740d-3436-44af-8cc0-a91900716aa5/5bc8c2ed-b718-4f44-beb3-ac2a005246cc/4842c8ec-f605-42cc-8a27-b43500121505/audio.mp3?utm_source=Podcast&in_playlist=786928c3-10c1-4cef-a7bf-ac2a005246d0

At 21, Brodie Finegan Forbes found himself in the centre of the sovereign citizen movement, which he calls a ‘decentralised, pseudo-legal cult’. The combination of a troubled childhood, loss of his burgeoning music career, and societal and psychological pressures led him to 24-hour Zoom ‘echo chambers’ where he learned how to challenge authority, take on judges, and terrorise people with paperwork. He was part of a ‘chosen few’ who had figured out a ‘secret’. At least that's what he thought... In this episode, Gary chats with Brodie about the lure of the sovereign citizen movement, how he ended up living in a remote Victorian compound, and the bizarre tactics used by the movement to manipulate the law and avoid accountability. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

## Transcript

[0:01] Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.
[0:05] Speaker 1: Detective sy aside of life the average person is never
[0:08] Speaker 1: exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop.
[0:11] Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.
[0:14] Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a
[0:16] Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,
[0:20] Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.
[0:23] Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories
[0:26] Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw
[0:28] Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some
[0:31] Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because
[0:34] Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.
[0:38] Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.
[0:46] Speaker 1: Why do people become sovereign citizens? And what are the
[0:50] Speaker 1: steps towards radicalization? Today? I speak with former sovereign citizens
[0:55] Speaker 1: Brody Finnigan Forbes, an interesting character who I'm not really
[0:59] Speaker 1: sure how the the scribe. We talked about a lot
[1:02] Speaker 1: of things, violence, drugs, rap music, tattoos, and take a
[1:07] Speaker 1: deep dive into the sovereign citizen movement. It was a
[1:10] Speaker 1: deeply personal and enlightening chat which left a real impression
[1:14] Speaker 1: on me. Brady Finnegan Forbes, Welcome to I Catch Killers.
[1:20] Speaker 2: Thank you for having me on, Gary, I really appreciate it.
[1:23] Speaker 1: Well, I'm not sure where this conversation is going to go,
[1:25] Speaker 1: but I certainly know that we're going to delve into
[1:29] Speaker 1: sovereign citizenship and talk about your experiences there. I've done
[1:34] Speaker 1: hundreds of podcasts, and I normally describe the person I've
[1:38] Speaker 1: got on the podcast, but I'm finding it very difficult
[1:41] Speaker 1: to label you one way or the other. So I'm
[1:44] Speaker 1: going to throw it over to you. Can you describe yourself?
[1:48] Speaker 1: Who's Brody?
[1:49] Speaker 2: Well? You know, Gary, last night, when I couldn't sleep
[1:54] Speaker 2: because I was a bit too excited to come on
[1:57] Speaker 2: the podcast, I was thinking of this, how do I
[2:01] Speaker 2: how do I introduce myself? And I thought, oh, perhaps
[2:04] Speaker 2: I could, you know, tell everyone how I believe I'm
[2:06] Speaker 2: the greatest poet of all time. But you know, I
[2:09] Speaker 2: do believe that. I'm not going to spare you my grandiosity.
[2:12] Speaker 1: And you're humble too, which is.
[2:16] Speaker 2: No But I thought, I don't really know what I am.
[2:20] Speaker 2: I don't know where I am, and I don't know
[2:22] Speaker 2: why I am. But I think I've been trying to
[2:25] Speaker 2: figure that out. My entire life, which has kind of
[2:28] Speaker 2: led me to this point. My experience has has kind
[2:32] Speaker 2: of gone to lots of different extremes in terms of
[2:37] Speaker 2: just the way I've lived. I've gone to the edge
[2:40] Speaker 2: in a way in lots of different industries.
[2:44] Speaker 1: Okay, so we'll sum that up that your the world's
[2:47] Speaker 1: greatest poet and you've gone to the.
[2:50] Speaker 2: Edge also the world's worst poet.
[2:52] Speaker 1: Okay, it depends when you ask me Ying and Ying.
[2:57] Speaker 1: I read your book Chasing Shadows my life as a
[3:00] Speaker 1: pseudo law extremist, and I got to say it was
[3:03] Speaker 1: an interesting read. I learned a lot from it. It
[3:06] Speaker 1: entertained me, it shocked me. That had all the things
[3:09] Speaker 1: you want one in a book, part of which the
[3:13] Speaker 1: book have focused on your time as a sovereign citizen,
[3:16] Speaker 1: and I want to talk in detail about that because
[3:18] Speaker 1: you experienced it, you went in, you believed in the ideology.
[3:23] Speaker 1: I think it's fair to say you're fully brought into
[3:26] Speaker 1: the sovereign citizenship, and then you saw the light and
[3:31] Speaker 1: you found your way out. So we want to talk
[3:33] Speaker 1: about that in depth because sovereign citizens are something that's
[3:37] Speaker 1: been in the media a lot of recent times with
[3:40] Speaker 1: Desi Freeman, certainly down in Victoria, where your base at
[3:44] Speaker 1: the moment, But they're becoming a bit of a concern
[3:47] Speaker 1: and I think people don't really understand what it's about.
[3:51] Speaker 1: We sort of laugh at it and think, oh, this
[3:53] Speaker 1: is a bit of a character, someone on the extreme.
[3:56] Speaker 1: But there's some dangers that can come with the ideology too,
[3:59] Speaker 1: isn't there? And damage, I suppose damage is a better
[4:02] Speaker 1: way of putting it.
[4:03] Speaker 2: Absolutely so to explain to your audience what a sovereign
[4:07] Speaker 2: citizen is. It's essentially someone who believes that the laws
[4:12] Speaker 2: which the rest of us abide by don't apply to them.
[4:17] Speaker 2: And it could be justified through a various number of reasons,
[4:22] Speaker 2: often legally, like through paperwork, they try to justify it, arguments,
[4:28] Speaker 2: just arguing with people about it, all the way to
[4:32] Speaker 2: seceeding from government's institutions. And yeah, so there's a there's
[4:38] Speaker 2: quite a quite a variety within that spectrum.
[4:40] Speaker 1: Yeah, and we'll delve into that and break it down.
[4:44] Speaker 1: But I think we used to laugh at people that
[4:48] Speaker 1: were going to secede from the Commonwealth and that that
[4:52] Speaker 1: was something that to be reported in the paper, on
[4:55] Speaker 1: the on the local news and people that think are
[4:58] Speaker 1: a quirky person. This is not the really take hold
[5:02] Speaker 1: reading the book, and I know we've had chats before,
[5:05] Speaker 1: but I think the COVID period and lockdowns played a
[5:10] Speaker 1: part in a lot of people trying to find trying
[5:13] Speaker 1: to find an identity in the world that felt like
[5:16] Speaker 1: it was turned upside down. You made reference to the
[5:20] Speaker 1: COVID lockdowns and the impact.
[5:22] Speaker 2: Yeah, so COVID was really the turning point for me.
[5:26] Speaker 2: It got me a lot deeper into the ideology than
[5:30] Speaker 2: I was before. At the time, I saw the same
[5:34] Speaker 2: I saw it as a bit of an overreach and
[5:37] Speaker 2: it was being mishandled in lots of different ways. In hindsight,
[5:41] Speaker 2: I look at it as it was mishandled. At the time,
[5:44] Speaker 2: I thought it was the evil Empire is coming out
[5:47] Speaker 2: to get me.
[5:50] Speaker 1: That was the.
[5:53] Speaker 2: Basic sort of thoughts, the fear based perspective that I
[5:57] Speaker 2: had at the time.
[5:58] Speaker 1: Yeah, well that's the concern I had for CAVID, because
[6:02] Speaker 1: I think I'm reasonably stable and resient, but it was
[6:06] Speaker 1: at the point that was it was breaking me down,
[6:08] Speaker 1: and it was a strange time in society for someone
[6:11] Speaker 1: that's you know, whether it's vulnerable, just that point in
[6:15] Speaker 1: time in life when you probably didn't have the stability.
[6:18] Speaker 1: I would imagine something like that with the you know,
[6:21] Speaker 1: the man the government having the power and telling you
[6:24] Speaker 1: when you can leave your house. That would have played
[6:26] Speaker 1: into a paranoia to a degree.
[6:28] Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, I was. At the time I was in
[6:32] Speaker 2: the music industry, I was going by the name Hell
[6:35] Speaker 2: Boys seven oh seven. I was already I was already
[6:38] Speaker 2: as tattooed as I am now, and I was.
[6:41] Speaker 1: Well, I'm going to talk about the tatoos, but I
[6:43] Speaker 1: I get to know you a little bit better before
[6:45] Speaker 1: we dissect the tatoos. Yeah, yeah, so I was.
[6:49] Speaker 2: I was writing music for like nine years up until
[6:52] Speaker 2: this point that COVID happened. And it took me nine
[6:55] Speaker 2: years to start to build a bit of a buzz
[6:58] Speaker 2: and a brand and and filled that into something, and
[7:01] Speaker 2: I started to get offered paid performances, and it really
[7:04] Speaker 2: looked like there was a future for me in this
[7:07] Speaker 2: going forward. And then COVID hit and boom, couldn't move,
[7:12] Speaker 2: couldn't go do anything anywhere, Everything got basically stopped. All
[7:17] Speaker 2: of a sudden. Was this bright, promising future that I
[7:20] Speaker 2: had gone overnight because suddenly we're in lockdown. Suddenly suddenly
[7:27] Speaker 2: it's like a gender twenty thirty and they're all coming
[7:29] Speaker 2: to get me like that's there's yeah, so there's was.
[7:34] Speaker 2: At the time, I was working in an organic grocery
[7:36] Speaker 2: store in Sydney, so I was already in an environment
[7:38] Speaker 2: that was kind of alternative.
[7:42] Speaker 1: Anti vex type.
[7:44] Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, I with COVID, we actually kind of stood
[7:50] Speaker 2: up to it a bit. Like I got arrested multiple
[7:53] Speaker 2: times at the grocery store just for keep not wearing
[7:56] Speaker 2: a mask, for keeping the shop running, for like just
[8:00] Speaker 2: all those sorts of things. But I also, at the
[8:04] Speaker 2: same time was introduced to these sovereign citizen Zoom groups
[8:10] Speaker 2: by a customer of the actual store. And then I, yeah,
[8:15] Speaker 2: just kind of I just kind of slowly got deeper
[8:17] Speaker 2: and deeper and deeper. But I was already leaning that
[8:20] Speaker 2: way because I was already afraid.
[8:22] Speaker 1: Okay, and then and that makes sense. I can see
[8:25] Speaker 1: why people, And I'm just trying to lean into your
[8:28] Speaker 1: state of mind at the time. You've got you building
[8:31] Speaker 1: up a business, and what was your music you're into?
[8:34] Speaker 1: Was it rap?
[8:35] Speaker 2: Hip hop?
[8:35] Speaker 1: Rap?
[8:36] Speaker 2: Of course like every other I don't know, twelve to
[8:40] Speaker 2: twenty five year old young man.
[8:43] Speaker 1: But you were starting to monetize it, starting to get
[8:45] Speaker 1: money from us.
[8:46] Speaker 2: Yeah, it really just started to I've been working so
[8:49] Speaker 2: hard for so long that I'd just started to get
[8:54] Speaker 2: the ball rolling. It just started to a bit of
[8:56] Speaker 2: momentum started to begin. Like with anything, you know, consistency
[9:00] Speaker 2: and perseverance often equals results, well always, so yeah, it
[9:07] Speaker 2: started to I was looking at this bright future. I
[9:10] Speaker 2: was excited, and then suddenly taken out legs out from
[9:15] Speaker 2: under me.
[9:15] Speaker 1: Really yeah, okay, so that that was your situation, So
[9:18] Speaker 1: I could see why you're there was a resentment there
[9:22] Speaker 1: to want to control.
[9:23] Speaker 2: I want to control back over my own life. I
[9:25] Speaker 2: felt like I had it, and then suddenly everything became
[9:33] Speaker 2: well scary in a way. Yeah, yeah, because I just
[9:36] Speaker 2: I just didn't I didn't have control anymore. I spent
[9:40] Speaker 2: nine years going down this path and then all of
[9:42] Speaker 2: a sudden dead end and I had committed. You know,
[9:46] Speaker 2: I'd faced out. I hadn't worked a normal job in
[9:50] Speaker 2: a long time. You know, there was no there was
[9:54] Speaker 2: no way that at that time I thought I could
[9:57] Speaker 2: come back.
[9:57] Speaker 1: Well, I was going to and we were going to
[10:00] Speaker 1: talk about the tattoos. But I was going to say
[10:02] Speaker 1: you're fully committed with the tattoos. But now I understand
[10:05] Speaker 1: that was all part of what you're building up for.
[10:08] Speaker 2: And yeah, yeah, I've always been an all or nothing
[10:11] Speaker 2: kind of person with everything I do.
[10:14] Speaker 1: Then for it to be shut down and to go
[10:17] Speaker 1: on for so long like the first lockdown, I thought, Okay,
[10:20] Speaker 1: well that might make sense.
[10:21] Speaker 2: If they curve.
[10:23] Speaker 1: That made sense. But then what I saw, and I'm
[10:28] Speaker 1: trying to get into the psychology of a sovereign citizen.
[10:31] Speaker 1: You've lost your dream, you were chasing the dream, and
[10:36] Speaker 1: authorities coming down on you, and there didn't seem any
[10:39] Speaker 1: logic I could see how you'd start to lean into.
[10:42] Speaker 1: And then when people get into your head about well
[10:45] Speaker 1: that's because the government are doing this, and I could
[10:48] Speaker 1: see how it could occur.
[10:49] Speaker 2: Yeah, it's I described the sovereign citizen movement as an
[10:54] Speaker 2: echo chamber and a decentralized cult. So there's there's no
[10:59] Speaker 2: one particular like leader, authority figure. It's it's fear based.
[11:05] Speaker 2: So if you're leaning into an ideology of disconnection, of
[11:10] Speaker 2: questioning authority, which is fair enough, it's fine to question authority.
[11:13] Speaker 2: It makes sense, you know, if you if you're in
[11:17] Speaker 2: that fear based sort of thing where you're not questioning
[11:19] Speaker 2: authority with with logic and reason, you're questioning it with
[11:23] Speaker 2: I don't want to, you know, change my line. I
[11:26] Speaker 2: don't want to adapt. You know, I'm scared and that
[11:31] Speaker 2: you're leaning into this ideology which whatever you put into it,
[11:34] Speaker 2: it's going to reflect it back to you louder and
[11:38] Speaker 2: it's going to start drowning out your normal life. And
[11:42] Speaker 2: I see it, well, I saw it in myself in hindsight, obviously.
[11:47] Speaker 1: I was.
[11:48] Speaker 2: I was leaning into this ideology, and because I'm all
[11:52] Speaker 2: or nothing, I'm probably quite easy to radicalize in of
[11:56] Speaker 2: people who actually question things a lot more than I did.
[12:01] Speaker 2: I was head head over here was I was in,
[12:04] Speaker 2: you know, within within a zoom, Like I had one
[12:08] Speaker 2: zoom meeting with a bunch of people who were talking
[12:11] Speaker 2: about what a person is and you know, the governments
[12:16] Speaker 2: of corporation and all this sort of stuff, and then
[12:19] Speaker 2: I was in. I was like, Oh, there's something here
[12:22] Speaker 2: that's something I want to know more about.
[12:24] Speaker 1: Okay, that that makes sense. The way the way that
[12:26] Speaker 1: you describe yourself and how you could have fallen into
[12:29] Speaker 1: it tell us about your your background. Where did you
[12:32] Speaker 1: grow up. What was your your upbringing?
[12:34] Speaker 2: Lot. I grew up in southeastern Sydney and East Lakes.
[12:38] Speaker 2: At the time, it wasn't a particularly happening area. It was.
[12:43] Speaker 2: It was gain controlled. There were a lot of drugs
[12:46] Speaker 2: and quite quite a lot of housing commission as well,
[12:50] Speaker 2: mixed with really expensive houses right next to a golf course.
[12:54] Speaker 2: It's a lot more gentrified now it's quite nice, actually,
[12:57] Speaker 2: but when I grew up it was. It was kind
[13:00] Speaker 2: of one of those places where you wouldn't you wouldn't
[13:03] Speaker 2: go out at night unless you really had to. So yeah,
[13:07] Speaker 2: it was. It was interesting. You know. My family life's
[13:11] Speaker 2: a bit complicated as well the least, but anyway, Yeah,
[13:18] Speaker 2: I went to high school at JJ carl In Mascot
[13:24] Speaker 2: there and I was bullied quite heavily for a lot
[13:27] Speaker 2: of it. So I was kind of kind of a
[13:29] Speaker 2: bit of an outcast and a bit like I was
[13:33] Speaker 2: also arrogant, don't get me wrong, Like I wasn't just
[13:35] Speaker 2: you know, I was picked on for a reason.
[13:39] Speaker 1: I was going to ask you why you were, why
[13:42] Speaker 1: you were bullied, but that was you just rend the
[13:45] Speaker 1: beat of a different drum, did you I think so?
[13:47] Speaker 2: Yeah, So yeah, just kind of the whole time as
[13:52] Speaker 2: a teenager, was thinking I'm going to get back at
[13:54] Speaker 2: everyone because I'm going to succeed in music, and that
[13:56] Speaker 2: became my identity. I became hellboy seven oh seven, so
[14:01] Speaker 2: much so that I was getting, you know, photographed in
[14:05] Speaker 2: public and started receiving death threats and all these sort
[14:07] Speaker 2: of things. Just being in the music industry before any of.
[14:10] Speaker 1: This, Who were you pissing off to give you death threats?
[14:14] Speaker 2: With any kind of attention online, you kind of you
[14:19] Speaker 2: kind of attract projection from other people. So yeah, at
[14:24] Speaker 2: the time, I looked at it like, wow, you know,
[14:28] Speaker 2: I've finally got people's attention. I'm going to be able
[14:32] Speaker 2: to do something with this. And then I was doing it.
[14:34] Speaker 2: I was outperforming, I was building a bit of a
[14:37] Speaker 2: fan base, and yeah, just like I said, all gone overnight.
[14:41] Speaker 2: So I started like, I need to find something quick,
[14:43] Speaker 2: I need to secure myself quick. And then here appears
[14:48] Speaker 2: the movement.
[14:50] Speaker 1: How old were you at the time, Ah, this.
[14:53] Speaker 2: Was around twenty nineteen to twenty twenty one. I really
[14:58] Speaker 2: started to just dip my toe in the water. By
[15:01] Speaker 2: twenty twenty one, I was all in. I was hosting
[15:04] Speaker 2: my own zooms, I had branded myself as I've taken
[15:08] Speaker 2: the skills I'd learned in music in order to create
[15:11] Speaker 2: a brand and a perception and a feeling for people,
[15:14] Speaker 2: and I applied that to sovereign citizens.
[15:18] Speaker 1: People people bored into it. Did you get in did
[15:21] Speaker 1: you get in the trouble with the cops or anything
[15:23] Speaker 1: when you're growing up.
[15:25] Speaker 2: When I was growing up, I got a bit of
[15:27] Speaker 2: petty crime, like you know, stealing and stuff like that. Nothing,
[15:32] Speaker 2: nothing too bad. I was honestly, I was far too
[15:36] Speaker 2: afraid of getting in trouble. I'm not a tough guy
[15:41] Speaker 2: by anyways. Like I like my fridge with cold apples
[15:46] Speaker 2: in it, if that makes sense.
[15:49] Speaker 1: You know your grandparents played a big part in your
[15:53] Speaker 1: life a bloie.
[15:54] Speaker 2: Yeah they did. They basically raised me, my grandparents and
[15:58] Speaker 2: my auntie who has passed past. When I was young,
[16:01] Speaker 2: Yeah and yeah, it was just yeah, living in East Lakes,
[16:06] Speaker 2: sitting in my sitting in my garage. From the age
[16:09] Speaker 2: of eleven till about probably nineteen twenty, I was just
[16:15] Speaker 2: smoking weed all the time. That was what I would do.
[16:18] Speaker 2: I would if I was going to school, because I
[16:22] Speaker 2: dropped out eventually. If I was going so I'd come
[16:24] Speaker 2: home and immediately I'd be in the garage just writing
[16:27] Speaker 2: and smoking. And that was years of my life, my
[16:30] Speaker 2: formative years. I might explain a lot anyway, Yeah, and
[16:36] Speaker 2: then I got I got clean right about the age
[16:40] Speaker 2: of twenty twenty one, and then COVID kind of happened
[16:43] Speaker 2: just after that. Like, so, yeah, it's been interesting. It's
[16:48] Speaker 2: been a weird ride.
[16:49] Speaker 1: You touched on in your book, and when I spoke
[16:52] Speaker 1: to you, you said, you're the happy if I if
[16:55] Speaker 1: I raise it, but you know what you want to
[16:57] Speaker 1: say about them, if you want to say anything at all.
[16:59] Speaker 1: But there was a you know, in terms of trauma
[17:02] Speaker 1: you have sexually abused when you're a young fella. To
[17:05] Speaker 1: what do you care to talk about that? Or did
[17:08] Speaker 1: that play a part in your rebellion.
[17:10] Speaker 2: Or I think it did. I think it did unconsciously
[17:13] Speaker 2: because I didn't realize that it actually happened until I
[17:17] Speaker 2: went well later on in the in the Sovereign Citizen Journey,
[17:21] Speaker 2: when I was homeless and escaping the movement, I'd moved
[17:24] Speaker 2: into a yoga studio in Brunswick, and I was sleeping
[17:27] Speaker 2: on the floor there and because you're in a yoga studio,
[17:30] Speaker 2: you're doing breath work all the time, and these things
[17:34] Speaker 2: are great, you know, but during those that process of
[17:39] Speaker 2: kind of just breathing and stuff, I had a flood
[17:42] Speaker 2: of memories from my childhood and one of them was
[17:45] Speaker 2: like sexual abuse. Yeah, and yeah it was. It was
[17:49] Speaker 2: eye opening and I looked at that explains a lot.
[17:52] Speaker 2: It explains quite a few different dynamics in my life
[17:57] Speaker 2: that have manifested it. Lanes also why I was predispositioned
[18:04] Speaker 2: to argue against authority. I think there was. Yeah, it's
[18:08] Speaker 2: had quite an effect unconsciously because I didn't find out
[18:12] Speaker 2: until maybe four years ago.
[18:15] Speaker 1: That's the insidious thing of child's sexual abuse is that
[18:20] Speaker 1: manifests itself in so many different ways for people who
[18:24] Speaker 1: have suffered it, and it can be a might lead
[18:28] Speaker 1: to crime, which is quite often the case, but also risky,
[18:34] Speaker 1: you risk taker in relationships, drug abuse, that that type
[18:38] Speaker 1: of thing. So yeah, it doesn't surprise. The tattoos, Yes,
[18:48] Speaker 1: I'd ask you how many tatoos you got, but I
[18:50] Speaker 1: don't know if you could keep count, could you?
[18:52] Speaker 2: I don't know. So I meant, since I was about
[18:56] Speaker 2: sixteen years old, the first one I got on my
[18:58] Speaker 2: bum walked into a tattoo shopping King's Cross and they
[19:03] Speaker 2: didn't ask for ID, so it's like sure, and then yeah,
[19:09] Speaker 2: just by nineteen I had my first face tattoo, and
[19:13] Speaker 2: I've just been kind of regularly getting them every couple
[19:17] Speaker 2: of months. I think.
[19:18] Speaker 1: Now, because this is a podcast, some people watch it
[19:20] Speaker 1: on video, as some people listen to it, I just
[19:23] Speaker 1: describe what I'm seeing. Shaved head looks like a large
[19:28] Speaker 1: octor Puss on the on the forehead, which is the
[19:34] Speaker 1: ring doctor ring, doctor Puss takes up path the forehead.
[19:38] Speaker 1: What's on the top of your skull? It looks like
[19:41] Speaker 1: a as tech sign or something.
[19:43] Speaker 2: It's labyrinth.
[19:45] Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, yes, under the eyes you got some.
[19:50] Speaker 2: Few things heart so yeah, broken heart with a little
[19:54] Speaker 2: bit of red inside the word run.
[19:57] Speaker 1: Well, okay, we've all had our hearts broken, but we
[19:59] Speaker 1: don't norm we put the tatoo on the on your face.
[20:05] Speaker 1: What do we got written on the hands?
[20:07] Speaker 2: Here, I've got my postcode where I grew up. Eighteen
[20:13] Speaker 2: helps get your home. Is actually helps me remember when
[20:19] Speaker 2: I need to send letters home, especially because I just look.
[20:24] Speaker 2: I've got blessed here, I've got on my left hand,
[20:28] Speaker 2: I've got lost time he's never found. It reminds me
[20:31] Speaker 2: to just keep moving. I've got the word homesick on
[20:36] Speaker 2: the right hand, and I've got sick crossed out because
[20:40] Speaker 2: I feel that I found my phone writing. It's a
[20:45] Speaker 2: quite an elaborate.
[20:47] Speaker 1: A plane on the other side of your forehead.
[20:49] Speaker 2: To plane of rows, a couple of stars, some birds
[20:56] Speaker 2: off the top.
[20:57] Speaker 1: What's that one side on the this one?
[20:59] Speaker 2: This one did say live fast, die young, and then
[21:02] Speaker 2: I crossed it out and under I want to live
[21:05] Speaker 2: a bit longer, I wrote live long and prosper underneath it.
[21:09] Speaker 1: Okay, well, let's say we can actually you're walking, we
[21:13] Speaker 1: can see how you evolve. Yeah, but like they all
[21:18] Speaker 1: look like they've got meaning, meaning at the time, but
[21:21] Speaker 1: it also looks like you're very reactive. Like it's okay,
[21:25] Speaker 1: this seems like a good idea. Let's put put that on.
[21:28] Speaker 2: I've gotten to the point where I don't overthink it anymore. Right,
[21:31] Speaker 2: too late now.
[21:35] Speaker 1: Going through mark like that in life. And you know,
[21:38] Speaker 1: I've seen people in the prison tattoos and all that,
[21:43] Speaker 1: But that's making a statement. Do people react differently to
[21:46] Speaker 1: you because of because of the tattoos that you've got.
[21:49] Speaker 2: Absolutely they do.
[21:51] Speaker 1: Talk us through that.
[21:53] Speaker 2: Yeah, so when you when you start getting visible tattoos,
[21:57] Speaker 2: people do treat you differently. One thing I've noticed is
[22:01] Speaker 2: that people people kind of split themselves into three different
[22:05] Speaker 2: camps in my mind, people, and these are the ones.
[22:10] Speaker 2: You want people who see you for you, right as
[22:12] Speaker 2: the human being you're this is brody, right. Then you've
[22:15] Speaker 2: got people who see you for the tattoos. And within
[22:18] Speaker 2: and within that sort of half, there's two halves. There's
[22:23] Speaker 2: people who see you for the tattoos and automatically assume
[22:27] Speaker 2: that you're bad or there's something negative about you, which
[22:31] Speaker 2: obviously there is, but like you know, everyone's got negative
[22:34] Speaker 2: parts of them. But anyway, or they see it and
[22:36] Speaker 2: they like it, but they still can't see past it.
[22:39] Speaker 2: They see you for the tattoos, and they might want
[22:42] Speaker 2: to hang out with you because you have a lot
[22:43] Speaker 2: of tattoos, and then it brings, you know, attention to whatever. So, yeah,
[22:49] Speaker 2: you're you're The way people treat you is absolutely different.
[22:52] Speaker 2: It depends. I like to look at it as people
[22:57] Speaker 2: can only really meet me as deeply as they've met themselves.
[23:02] Speaker 1: Okay, break they break that down, Explain that that's interesting.
[23:05] Speaker 2: Well, I if people are making sort of surface level
[23:09] Speaker 2: judgments about people. And I understand that from a survival perspective,
[23:13] Speaker 2: you know, but in this day and age, it's it's
[23:17] Speaker 2: valuable to look into things deeper. And when I meet
[23:20] Speaker 2: people who just see me for the tattoos, whether it's
[23:22] Speaker 2: good or bad, I sometimes make the mistake of I
[23:28] Speaker 2: think pigeoning them, pigeonholing them and going, oh, they're just
[23:32] Speaker 2: classifying me as this person with a lot of tattoos.
[23:35] Speaker 1: Yeah, well, well, in a way, you could be risk
[23:41] Speaker 1: judging them like they're judging you. Because if someone that
[23:45] Speaker 1: if you walk around the corner at night and bumped
[23:48] Speaker 1: into bumped into you, would there would be a there
[23:52] Speaker 1: would be a reaction, and absolutely, you know you're you're
[23:56] Speaker 1: assuming they're scared. Maybe it's it's sort of confronting.
[23:59] Speaker 2: I suppose part of the reason as well that I
[24:01] Speaker 2: got tatoos was because I was scared. Like it's a
[24:05] Speaker 2: way for me to hide within my own skin.
[24:08] Speaker 1: You know that's interesting.
[24:09] Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, my whole life have suffered from anxiety, so
[24:16] Speaker 2: tatoos have also been a way to get control over
[24:20] Speaker 2: how I'm perceived. You know, it comes with a cost,
[24:25] Speaker 2: it does, because I'm not. I'm not like there are
[24:28] Speaker 2: people out there criminals and as you would know, they've
[24:31] Speaker 2: got tattoos and all that onus. People are entitled to,
[24:35] Speaker 2: I guess, create whatever life they want for themselves and
[24:37] Speaker 2: if I don't understand it, but I've been accused of
[24:41] Speaker 2: being a Nazi. I've been accused of all sorts of
[24:43] Speaker 2: things just because of the way I looked, and it's
[24:46] Speaker 2: you know, it's it is a bit of a self
[24:49] Speaker 2: protective thing because I'm able to just let people project
[24:55] Speaker 2: onto this version of me and the real man can
[24:58] Speaker 2: hide behind it.
[25:00] Speaker 1: That makes sense, Well, it does make sense, but it's
[25:04] Speaker 1: very complex. I think we'd have to get a psychologist
[25:06] Speaker 1: in the sect everything that's going on there. But it's
[25:10] Speaker 1: certainly you would be noticed anywhere you go, so you
[25:15] Speaker 1: wouldn't be able to slip. If it was a party
[25:17] Speaker 1: or you walk into a pub, people are going to
[25:19] Speaker 1: people are going to look, and I would imagine sometimes
[25:23] Speaker 1: that can feel good. Other times it's the last thing
[25:25] Speaker 1: you feel.
[25:26] Speaker 2: Like, Absolutely yeah. I actually get quite exhausted by people's
[25:32] Speaker 2: reactions at times, just because it is so in your face,
[25:36] Speaker 2: on my face.
[25:39] Speaker 1: In your face.
[25:40] Speaker 2: It does get exhausting. But you know, like I kind
[25:44] Speaker 2: of signed myself up for it. I can't. I can't
[25:47] Speaker 2: sit here and be like, oh, it's terrible.
[25:49] Speaker 1: Do you have any regrets? Is there a part of
[25:52] Speaker 1: no regrets?
[25:53] Speaker 2: So no regrets because because I'm not it's it Also
[25:58] Speaker 2: there's a lot of things about looking like this that
[26:03] Speaker 2: it makes me commit. If I'm going to do something,
[26:05] Speaker 2: I'm going to do it. I'm not. I don't have
[26:07] Speaker 2: I don't have the luxury of going and you know,
[26:10] Speaker 2: working in corporate I can't. I don't have that.
[26:14] Speaker 1: You're not you haven't taken it each way? Bet with this,
[26:17] Speaker 1: have you?
[26:19] Speaker 2: I need to do everything I can to get to
[26:22] Speaker 2: where I want to be, and there is there is
[26:25] Speaker 2: no choice and that that it's it's succeed or die.
[26:29] Speaker 2: That's the that's the way that I actually like to
[26:32] Speaker 2: live my life. And this kind of helps me with that.
[26:36] Speaker 2: But ultimately, I I like to be an example of
[26:42] Speaker 2: don't judge a book by its cover. You can you
[26:44] Speaker 2: can look at me and you and you can see
[26:46] Speaker 2: what I am, but once you meet me, you'll see
[26:49] Speaker 2: that there's there's so much more than just the service
[26:52] Speaker 2: level judgments that people make. One of the things that
[26:55] Speaker 2: tattoos do for you as well as they amplify everything
[26:57] Speaker 2: that you do. So if I do something newtative, people
[27:01] Speaker 2: will attached to that and they'll go, that's terrible, what
[27:05] Speaker 2: an example of badness? Or if I do something positive,
[27:10] Speaker 2: it gets amplified and they're like, wow, look at these,
[27:13] Speaker 2: such an example of what a shining light sort of thing.
[27:17] Speaker 2: So you, whether you like it or not, you're reduced
[27:19] Speaker 2: to extremes. So yeah, with this couple of people I've
[27:24] Speaker 2: met in jiu jitsu, a couple of people i've met,
[27:26] Speaker 2: you know, working a suicide crisis lines.
[27:30] Speaker 1: And at work.
[27:31] Speaker 2: You know, they they'll come to me after they've known
[27:33] Speaker 2: me for a while and they'll go, I thought you
[27:36] Speaker 2: were X, Y and Z. You know, I was a
[27:39] Speaker 2: bit wary of you, But the more I've gotten to
[27:40] Speaker 2: know you, the more you're actually just a human being.
[27:45] Speaker 2: Is such a great guy or whatever they might say.
[27:49] Speaker 2: I ultimately, I try to just be authentic. Yeah, that
[27:57] Speaker 2: is authentic, and let go and focus on what I
[28:00] Speaker 2: can control.
[28:01] Speaker 1: No, well, it's an interesting path that you've taken getting
[28:05] Speaker 1: the tatoos like that. Like, I know a lot of
[28:07] Speaker 1: people that declared themselves criminals and they wear the tattoos
[28:12] Speaker 1: to represent the type of people they are. You're not
[28:15] Speaker 1: out there as a criminal, You're you're wearing it. This
[28:17] Speaker 1: is just the way I want to live my life,
[28:18] Speaker 1: and this is a statement I want to make, and
[28:20] Speaker 1: this reflects who I am. So yeah, it's interesting, but
[28:23] Speaker 1: it's an important thing for all of us to learn
[28:25] Speaker 1: that not judge a book by its cover. All right,
[28:29] Speaker 1: So we've got a good description of you, we know
[28:32] Speaker 1: where you've grown up, and we've got an idea of
[28:35] Speaker 1: some of your tattoos. We haven't got long enough to
[28:37] Speaker 1: go through all of them. So COVID, you're explaining that
[28:42] Speaker 1: you're aiming for a career in music, you're working in
[28:46] Speaker 1: a store, you're starting to rebel against it. Take us
[28:50] Speaker 1: on the journey, because I think people would be fascinated.
[28:52] Speaker 1: We see the Desi Freeman, the end result of a
[28:55] Speaker 1: sovereign citizen and probably the worst representation of a sovereign
[28:59] Speaker 1: citizen or the extreme. Just take us on the journey.
[29:02] Speaker 1: You your journey, how you how you got to the
[29:05] Speaker 1: point where you identified yourself as keeping with a sovereign
[29:09] Speaker 1: citizen and the ideology.
[29:11] Speaker 2: Okay, so the my introduction was through zoom groups. So
[29:16] Speaker 2: I'd be on these zoom groups, I'll be learning about it.
[29:18] Speaker 2: And I was on there all day every day because
[29:20] Speaker 2: once I just my personality, I'm no moderation. I am
[29:25] Speaker 2: in right now, it's just relentless. Everything I do is
[29:31] Speaker 2: this like. So it became my life pretty quickly, and
[29:36] Speaker 2: I learned how it works. I learned all the pseudo
[29:39] Speaker 2: legal theories. I learned the different sort of splinter groups
[29:42] Speaker 2: that were happening within the ideology, and then I think
[29:47] Speaker 2: I naturally drifted towards well. I started off with me
[29:51] Speaker 2: arguing with police about COVID stuff. I would be I
[29:55] Speaker 2: can be getting summons to court. I'd be going into
[29:59] Speaker 2: Downing Center in Sydney.
[30:02] Speaker 1: So this is for not wearing the mask or yeah I'm.
[30:05] Speaker 2: Getting I just you know, being out sort of.
[30:09] Speaker 1: Where you shouldn't be whatever. Yeah, okay, so you go
[30:12] Speaker 1: to court.
[30:13] Speaker 2: Yeah, so I'm just going into court.
[30:15] Speaker 1: And I was.
[30:16] Speaker 2: I was doing everything I could not to contract right,
[30:21] Speaker 2: and the idea behind that as a sovereign said. One
[30:24] Speaker 2: thing I want to clear up right before we really
[30:26] Speaker 2: get into this as well, is you're seeing a lot
[30:28] Speaker 2: of comments sections people say you can't be a sovereign
[30:31] Speaker 2: and a citizen at the same time. That's an oxymoron,
[30:35] Speaker 2: and it's like, well, yes it is, but I'm talking
[30:38] Speaker 2: about the ideology. You are someone who believes they are
[30:41] Speaker 2: above the citizenry, which is everyone. So when we when
[30:46] Speaker 2: I think when people are saying when media and everyone
[30:49] Speaker 2: is saying sovereign citizen, it's because you know, it's people
[30:53] Speaker 2: who are leaning towards the ideology in that in that way.
[30:59] Speaker 1: And at this point, I want you to tell us
[31:02] Speaker 1: what you believed in, Like we're going to dissect the
[31:06] Speaker 1: listener warning that's going to end in tears, Like who
[31:09] Speaker 1: would have thought. But I'm really curious, and I think
[31:13] Speaker 1: our listeners would be really curious to understand how it
[31:17] Speaker 1: evolves and what you're believing in. So tell us, tell
[31:21] Speaker 1: us the beliefs without shooting them down. Now that you
[31:23] Speaker 1: know with the benefit of hindsight, one of the.
[31:26] Speaker 2: First things that you'll learn, or you'll be told in
[31:29] Speaker 2: these in these groups is that you are not the person.
[31:33] Speaker 2: You are not the name. And while that is correct,
[31:38] Speaker 2: it's not correct in the way that they teach it.
[31:41] Speaker 2: The idea of the person is it is the etomology
[31:45] Speaker 2: of the word, the etymology means the root meaning, so
[31:48] Speaker 2: the root meaning of the word person if you look
[31:49] Speaker 2: it up on an etymology dictionary, is a false face
[31:52] Speaker 2: or a mask, and then that gets twisted into saying,
[31:57] Speaker 2: you know, you are not the false face, the mask,
[32:01] Speaker 2: the fake citizen you are. And then it's also a
[32:06] Speaker 2: mix of maritime law like misinterpreted maritime law, a bit
[32:11] Speaker 2: of narcissism in there as well.
[32:13] Speaker 1: If you've read in your book on that, like citizenship,
[32:16] Speaker 1: let's break the word up ship that means vessel, like.
[32:20] Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, exactly, it's it's it's yeah, it's you start
[32:27] Speaker 2: off by learning that you're not the person, you're not
[32:29] Speaker 2: the name. And often that'll that will shock you into
[32:31] Speaker 2: like what like I always thought I was Brody and
[32:34] Speaker 2: it's like, no, Brodie is a concept in law, and yeah,
[32:37] Speaker 2: that makes sense right that that on it does? You know,
[32:40] Speaker 2: we need to be able to have a vessel in commerce,
[32:44] Speaker 2: to be able to contract with one another, and you know,
[32:46] Speaker 2: if you do something and I can take Gary to
[32:49] Speaker 2: court and vice versa. But at the time, there's lots
[32:54] Speaker 2: of different sort of theories within the sovereign citizen movement.
[32:58] Speaker 2: It's not one drin there's lots of them. There's the
[33:04] Speaker 2: common law way of doing it, which is, you know,
[33:07] Speaker 2: I'm the living man, and you know I suey jurists
[33:12] Speaker 2: and all this sort of like they use a lot
[33:14] Speaker 2: of legal terminology, and all of it uses a lot
[33:18] Speaker 2: of legal terminology. There's that way of going about it.
[33:21] Speaker 2: There's the ones who just try to seceed completely and go, well,
[33:24] Speaker 2: I am my own country, I am my own king,
[33:27] Speaker 2: I am my own sovereign.
[33:30] Speaker 1: So I paid taxes, I don't Yeah.
[33:32] Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. The group that I was kind of introduced
[33:36] Speaker 2: to was a like crown the idea of the crown
[33:40] Speaker 2: right in legislation, and we would look at the crown like, okay,
[33:44] Speaker 2: the crown is the is the people, and we would
[33:47] Speaker 2: also add a little bit of spirituality just to sprinkle
[33:50] Speaker 2: in there. The crown of the crown chakra, you know,
[33:53] Speaker 2: it's that's what they're talking about in this legislation of
[33:56] Speaker 2: It's like, the crown is the people, the living soul,
[34:00] Speaker 2: and that's what we all serve. And it goes crown
[34:06] Speaker 2: government person and the person's at the bottom, so you
[34:10] Speaker 2: don't want to identify as the person. And in the
[34:13] Speaker 2: common law way, it's it's living man government person. So
[34:19] Speaker 2: the person's at the bottom of the hierarchy, so you
[34:23] Speaker 2: don't want to be the person. So if you identify
[34:25] Speaker 2: my name is Brody fitting and Forbes, then you are
[34:30] Speaker 2: reduced to that person in terms of your status, and
[34:34] Speaker 2: your sovereignties is relinquished to the authority of the government,
[34:38] Speaker 2: who sits in between you as the person and then
[34:41] Speaker 2: you as the crown.
[34:43] Speaker 1: So let's just hypothetically Brody gets arrested or summons to
[34:51] Speaker 1: appear at court because he wasn't wearing the mask when
[34:53] Speaker 1: he should have been, and you go into the local
[34:56] Speaker 1: court and you start arguing that legal argument start going
[35:00] Speaker 1: on like that. I'd be sitting there as a magistrate, going, oh,
[35:03] Speaker 1: for fuck's sake, let's just let him walk out. You'd
[35:06] Speaker 1: break people down, okay.
[35:09] Speaker 2: So one of I went into quite a few local
[35:12] Speaker 2: courts in Sydney, and a lot of the time, the
[35:15] Speaker 2: first time I went in, they kind of just let
[35:17] Speaker 2: me straight in because they didn't really know what I
[35:20] Speaker 2: Was going to do or whatever. But the times after that,
[35:24] Speaker 2: i'd be stopped out the front and they'd run through
[35:26] Speaker 2: all of the other cases and they'd keep me waiting
[35:28] Speaker 2: out the front I wouldn't like, I wouldn't get past
[35:31] Speaker 2: the sheriffs because I wouldn't be contracting with them. That
[35:34] Speaker 2: was my thoughts. I'm like, they go, are you Brodie Forbes?
[35:37] Speaker 2: Be like, well, how could I be Brodie Forbes? Am
[35:40] Speaker 2: I I am the Crown? Am I not? You know,
[35:42] Speaker 2: i'd be I'd be phrasing things as a question.
[35:45] Speaker 1: That that was part. That's part of the tactics, isn't
[35:48] Speaker 1: it question? Don't answer the question.
[35:51] Speaker 2: Exactly pose the question because it keeps you in a
[35:54] Speaker 2: position of power. So you're doing everything you can to
[35:58] Speaker 2: treat Roady Finigan Forbes as a piece of paper or
[36:04] Speaker 2: a person a theory, but you are not it and
[36:07] Speaker 2: that it makes sense of the surface level, But once
[36:11] Speaker 2: you get deeper into it and you start to realize,
[36:14] Speaker 2: hold On, Brody Finnigen Forbes exists because we as a
[36:18] Speaker 2: society need accountability, because not everyone can be calling themselves
[36:22] Speaker 2: I'm the Crown, I'm the you know, the living man.
[36:26] Speaker 2: It's like okay, but you know, like what if you
[36:29] Speaker 2: hear me with your car mate, like I can't just
[36:32] Speaker 2: tell him by the Crown got me? You know? Like yes,
[36:36] Speaker 2: So I was going into court and I was arguing
[36:40] Speaker 2: these points. At one point, I was in this courtroom
[36:44] Speaker 2: and they'd cleared everyone out of way.
[36:45] Speaker 1: You're representing yourself?
[36:47] Speaker 2: Oh yeah, of course, yeah, because you can't. You can't
[36:50] Speaker 2: give the power to a lawyer because a lawyer is
[36:52] Speaker 2: a member of the bar, and the bar is like
[36:55] Speaker 2: part of the big club.
[36:57] Speaker 1: I'm with you here. It's all making a lot of
[37:01] Speaker 1: sense now.
[37:04] Speaker 2: So I'm in there in this kind of empty courtroom
[37:08] Speaker 2: because there's no members of the public there. There's just
[37:10] Speaker 2: you know, court stuff, because they cleared everyone out, and
[37:13] Speaker 2: I was arguing with the magistrate and she's constantly saying, well,
[37:16] Speaker 2: are you gonna like, are you representing Bradie Forbes? Like
[37:20] Speaker 2: we need to know? And I would be dancing around
[37:23] Speaker 2: all of the questions and at one point I don't
[37:26] Speaker 2: remember quite how she phrased it, but the magistrates said
[37:28] Speaker 2: to me, well, what do you want to do here? Like,
[37:33] Speaker 2: what's what's going on? I twisted it, I because I
[37:39] Speaker 2: was a bit of smart ass, and I said, are
[37:41] Speaker 2: you asking me for legal advice? The entire courtroom just
[37:46] Speaker 2: went look at this arrogant young man coming in here
[37:52] Speaker 2: trying to, you know, out riddle us. I guess trying
[37:57] Speaker 2: to like talk, yeah, way out of a simple mask. Fine.
[38:02] Speaker 2: So anyway, I started to get a bit of a reputation,
[38:05] Speaker 2: I think, on the docket. So when they see, you know,
[38:09] Speaker 2: my name come up as a thing that I was
[38:11] Speaker 2: just stopped out in the front of the court and they'd
[38:13] Speaker 2: be clear and everyone, and they'll try and get me
[38:15] Speaker 2: in and same thing again and again and again. But
[38:19] Speaker 2: in my life, the heat really started to rise. I
[38:25] Speaker 2: was living in Maruba at the time, and it was
[38:29] Speaker 2: a chaotic like I've been in kind of housing commission
[38:32] Speaker 2: a lot of my life, but it was a chaotic
[38:35] Speaker 2: sort of environment of one of my neighbors had just
[38:37] Speaker 2: stabbed another one of the neighbors. So I was kind
[38:40] Speaker 2: of in this world. I'm already feeling unsafe where I'm staying,
[38:42] Speaker 2: and then I had the police coming past all the time,
[38:45] Speaker 2: just serving me with summons, as serving me with just
[38:51] Speaker 2: all types of paperwork, because you know, I was constantly
[38:54] Speaker 2: being pulled up at train stations, at the organic shop,
[38:58] Speaker 2: just not wearing a mask, not lying, not giving them
[39:01] Speaker 2: the name. So yeah, I was. At the same time,
[39:06] Speaker 2: I was running these Zoom meetings because I'd learned the
[39:08] Speaker 2: pseudo legal theories. And then I also knew how to
[39:10] Speaker 2: brand myself, so I created a persona as I think
[39:14] Speaker 2: of a lot of celebrity, do you create a persona?
[39:19] Speaker 2: And then people start going, oh, I recognize that because
[39:22] Speaker 2: it's memorable. And then I started building up larger followings
[39:26] Speaker 2: in the zoom groups. At the same time. I remember it,
[39:29] Speaker 2: I was on a Zoom meeting because I used to
[39:33] Speaker 2: do twenty four hour zooms. I'd just be on it
[39:37] Speaker 2: all the time, and I'd have people come and join
[39:39] Speaker 2: whenever they want. We'll talk about pseudo legal things. I'd
[39:41] Speaker 2: always be working on paperwork type in a way, trying
[39:44] Speaker 2: to you know, interpret legislation and use it to my advantage.
[39:48] Speaker 2: And the whole purpose of all of it is we
[39:51] Speaker 2: believe that there is a secret bank account which is
[39:55] Speaker 2: attached to your birth certificate, which if you just send
[39:59] Speaker 2: the right combination of documents into maybe the Treasury Department,
[40:05] Speaker 2: maybe it's asy, Oh, maybe it's you know, home affairs,
[40:09] Speaker 2: could be anything.
[40:10] Speaker 1: You crack the code.
[40:11] Speaker 2: You crack the code and you become a billionaire and
[40:14] Speaker 2: they give you your freedom and off you go. Yeah, so
[40:17] Speaker 2: that's there.
[40:20] Speaker 1: Okay, when did you say you started smoking cannabis.
[40:24] Speaker 2: About the age of eleven.
[40:27] Speaker 1: I'm young, I can see, and you've been very open
[40:31] Speaker 1: about it. Oh yeah, it's confusing me. I'm trying to think, okay,
[40:34] Speaker 1: how anyway, I'm getting the vibe of what's happening here.
[40:38] Speaker 1: But it seems like if you're conducting those Zoom meetings
[40:43] Speaker 1: in going the court, you're walking out thinking, yeah, I'm
[40:46] Speaker 1: on top of this. Look at the about smart the magistrate,
[40:48] Speaker 1: I've done this, done that.
[40:50] Speaker 2: I'd go tell the stories on Zoom about my endeavors
[40:53] Speaker 2: and my chief.
[40:54] Speaker 1: Down that rabbit hole of like minded people. They'd be thinking,
[40:58] Speaker 1: you're a legend, which your own to the point where.
[41:02] Speaker 2: It's the echo chamber. You feed the echo chamber, and
[41:04] Speaker 2: then the echo chamber feeds you back, and then everything
[41:07] Speaker 2: else gets blocked out because they're all sheeple, they're all
[41:13] Speaker 2: they're not awake. You're awake. You're part of the chosen
[41:15] Speaker 2: few who have figured out the secret. And you know,
[41:20] Speaker 2: talk about appealing to my narcissism. My god, I was
[41:23] Speaker 2: all the way in.
[41:26] Speaker 1: At this point in time or that point in time.
[41:30] Speaker 1: If I was still in the cops and I met you,
[41:33] Speaker 1: how would I call what would I call you? Who
[41:34] Speaker 1: are you?
[41:36] Speaker 2: So? Part of it as well? Like with a lot
[41:38] Speaker 2: of cults, you get your own name, you get your
[41:41] Speaker 2: own identity, and you create your own So I was
[41:44] Speaker 2: I think I was Crowned seven oh seven at the time.
[41:48] Speaker 2: Took a bit from my Hell Boys seven oh seven,
[41:51] Speaker 2: so crown seven oh seven, and then I just, yeah,
[41:54] Speaker 2: just picked up a bit of a following. I was
[41:56] Speaker 2: on these zooms and I remember this one particular zoom
[41:58] Speaker 2: I got. The police were coming to my door as
[42:01] Speaker 2: I was on the zoom, and like I was showing
[42:03] Speaker 2: the camera footage over the zoom of the police at
[42:05] Speaker 2: the door knocking away, trying and trying to get my attention,
[42:08] Speaker 2: you'll get me to come out and talk to him.
[42:09] Speaker 2: I just wasn't gonna open the door.
[42:10] Speaker 1: And the people on the meeting would have thought, how
[42:12] Speaker 1: cool is this look he's standing up to the police. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah.
[42:16] Speaker 2: So I got offered a few different offers from lots
[42:23] Speaker 2: of different places, because I had people all around Australia
[42:26] Speaker 2: coming onto the zooms and meeting me and telling me
[42:30] Speaker 2: their stories and I was telling them mine. I got
[42:32] Speaker 2: offered to go live it down on a compound in
[42:35] Speaker 2: country Victoria, and I was in such a state of
[42:39] Speaker 2: they're coming after me. I need time to figure this
[42:42] Speaker 2: puzzle out. So the next day I was packing and
[42:47] Speaker 2: I was on the way down paranoia. Absolutely, yeah you
[42:53] Speaker 2: took the offer up. Yeah, yeah, absolutely, I took the
[42:57] Speaker 2: offer up. I was left on Christmas Eve of twenty
[43:03] Speaker 2: twenty one, and I arrived in Christmas Day of twenty
[43:06] Speaker 2: twenty one on the compound.
[43:08] Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, did you have outstanding matters in court floating
[43:13] Speaker 1: around and all that. Financially, I wouldn't think you're in
[43:17] Speaker 1: the in the best position at that stot.
[43:19] Speaker 2: I'd cut off Centerlink as well, because I was really committed.
[43:22] Speaker 2: I didn't want any contracts. I wanted all the contracts
[43:25] Speaker 2: to be be my doing. I wanted to negotiate my
[43:28] Speaker 2: way into getting paid properly, you know, as the crown,
[43:33] Speaker 2: not as sorry.
[43:35] Speaker 1: I do like your commitment, but i'd be mindful if
[43:37] Speaker 1: I was trying to whip you up. And I want
[43:38] Speaker 1: your full commitment because you give it, don't you say?
[43:41] Speaker 1: Oh yeah, cut cut off that. Okay, it's been a
[43:45] Speaker 1: learning experience.
[43:48] Speaker 2: So yeah, so i'd cut off sense Link. I was
[43:50] Speaker 2: on the way down and I basically had no money.
[43:54] Speaker 2: I brought my cats with me and I hitch hiked
[43:58] Speaker 2: down to Melbourne and I got on the V line
[44:00] Speaker 2: and off I went to our rap and then I
[44:03] Speaker 2: got a lift from one of the members of the
[44:05] Speaker 2: group from our at station to the Horsham area where
[44:10] Speaker 2: I was settling for the next year, into chaos.
[44:16] Speaker 1: Hey guys, it's scary Jubilan here. Want to get more
[44:20] Speaker 1: out of I Catch Killers, then you should head over
[44:22] Speaker 1: to our new video feed on Spotify where you can
[44:25] Speaker 1: watch every episode of I Catch Killers. Just search for
[44:29] Speaker 1: I Catch Killers video in your Spotify app and start
[44:33] Speaker 1: watching today. And now that's what I've read in the book.
[44:38] Speaker 1: That was an interesting, interesting period, And not that it
[44:41] Speaker 1: wasn't the Kumbai our world you were hoping to find
[44:44] Speaker 1: out there was it.
[44:46] Speaker 2: No, it was. For the first month it was great
[44:49] Speaker 2: like I was the new entertainment. Really, because I also
[44:52] Speaker 2: came with a bit of a reputation. All these people
[44:54] Speaker 2: knew if I was I was on the zooms. They'd
[44:57] Speaker 2: see me on the zooms. They knew that I knew stuff.
[45:00] Speaker 2: I was going to come down and help a lot
[45:01] Speaker 2: of people with their paperwork.
[45:03] Speaker 1: And I did you call it a compound. How many
[45:05] Speaker 1: people were living there and what were the sort of
[45:07] Speaker 1: living arrangements. How was that set out?
[45:10] Speaker 2: It was essentially on just a couple of acres, so
[45:14] Speaker 2: you know, with the photos of Desi Freeman, like where
[45:16] Speaker 2: they found with the shipping container and the debris kind
[45:20] Speaker 2: of everywhere similar to that. It's that kind of rural property.
[45:25] Speaker 2: And yeah, in terms of the amount of people that
[45:27] Speaker 2: were there all the time, there was about probably just
[45:31] Speaker 2: under ten who were there who lived there like all
[45:33] Speaker 2: the time. And then there were people who were coming
[45:36] Speaker 2: and going every day who lived nearby, even people from
[45:41] Speaker 2: like neighboring states would drive on over and park up
[45:45] Speaker 2: and stay for like a week, and then you know,
[45:47] Speaker 2: it was kind of just a constant coming and going
[45:51] Speaker 2: of like my mind and people.
[45:53] Speaker 1: Yep, okay, and what was your how did you earn
[45:56] Speaker 1: your keep? That did? What did you do?
[45:58] Speaker 2: Yeah? So I did a lot of your labor, like
[46:00] Speaker 2: chopping woods and cleaning gutters, and also paperwork. Paperwork was
[46:05] Speaker 2: the big thing, right because I was seen as someone
[46:09] Speaker 2: who understood the pseudo legal stuff where other people were
[46:13] Speaker 2: struggling with it. So I was doing a lot of
[46:17] Speaker 2: paperwork helping people out with court matters with correcting their
[46:21] Speaker 2: status as they say, in the system. Like yeah, and
[46:25] Speaker 2: that was my way of just doing my part on
[46:29] Speaker 2: the compound, so much so that I actually was somewhat
[46:33] Speaker 2: successful in ways I would try to use the crown
[46:39] Speaker 2: stuff and the sovereign citizens sort of thing, but ultimately
[46:43] Speaker 2: as well, at the same time I was picking apart paperwork,
[46:47] Speaker 2: I was finding inconsistencies and putting them to the forefront
[46:52] Speaker 2: as well, which is actually a very good skill in
[46:54] Speaker 2: terms of.
[46:56] Speaker 1: Look, I've no doubt if the effort that you've put
[46:59] Speaker 1: in and how you can it, if you committed to
[47:01] Speaker 1: more traditional law and studied that, I'm damn sure you'd
[47:05] Speaker 1: be a very good solicitor or barrister. But you decide
[47:09] Speaker 1: to go down a go down a different path. Yeah,
[47:13] Speaker 1: you call it a compound, and I think people, yeah,
[47:17] Speaker 1: the image of it. You've described the type of place
[47:20] Speaker 1: that we saw Desi Freeman meet his end. But to me,
[47:25] Speaker 1: it feels like a commute. It's like a you know,
[47:28] Speaker 1: everyone's contributing in in some way, but there was a
[47:31] Speaker 1: leader there that was controlling, controlling everyone talk to us
[47:36] Speaker 1: about that. You don't have to name him, but.
[47:38] Speaker 2: So yeah, so essentially, like like with any sort of place,
[47:45] Speaker 2: there's there's often like an alpha male who's sort of
[47:48] Speaker 2: the big dog and like needs to be seen as
[47:51] Speaker 2: the big dog. Like, so there was a guy like that.
[47:55] Speaker 1: Yeah, we're all equal. I'm not.
[48:00] Speaker 2: Exactly equity for me, but not for thee So yeah,
[48:06] Speaker 2: and I was helping him out with the paperwork. I
[48:08] Speaker 2: even actually got him off a two year He was
[48:11] Speaker 2: facing two years in prison for a gun chart and
[48:14] Speaker 2: I got him off because I picked the inconsistencies in
[48:17] Speaker 2: the paperwork that the cops have made a few mistakes,
[48:20] Speaker 2: like anyone would when you're processing hundreds of matters all
[48:24] Speaker 2: the time. Like I picked apart the little inconsistencies, and
[48:27] Speaker 2: I mixed in some of the Crown stuff and we
[48:29] Speaker 2: went into the horse from court and we argued the
[48:32] Speaker 2: point and they he got off on the technicality. And
[48:35] Speaker 2: that was like within the first month of me being there.
[48:38] Speaker 2: So that solidified my reputation in the place, and so
[48:41] Speaker 2: suddenly I was the golden child. I was. I couldn't
[48:45] Speaker 2: really do any wrong. But I also noticed at the
[48:48] Speaker 2: same time other people were getting bullied. There was there
[48:53] Speaker 2: were dynamics on the compound that we were quite toxic.
[48:59] Speaker 2: But ignorance is bliss, I suppose, until it affects you.
[49:06] Speaker 2: So after a while it started to affect me because
[49:10] Speaker 2: people come and going all the time. Some people couldn't
[49:12] Speaker 2: copy the abuse, so they'd leave, and if they'd go,
[49:16] Speaker 2: and then someone else would come and maybe they'd be
[49:18] Speaker 2: the target or whatever. I started to stand up to
[49:21] Speaker 2: the guy and you know, telling him a few of
[49:23] Speaker 2: the things I didn't like, and then of course, you know,
[49:25] Speaker 2: I became the next sort of target. At the same
[49:28] Speaker 2: time as well, we were also kind of harboring a fugitive.
[49:32] Speaker 2: We had someone there who was in the family courts
[49:34] Speaker 2: who was they just were terrified of their of their
[49:38] Speaker 2: child getting the JAB, and that the other parent was
[49:41] Speaker 2: kind of very proet and was kind of.
[49:44] Speaker 1: Not that specific case, but I remember those type of
[49:47] Speaker 1: things coming up where parents would take their kids away
[49:50] Speaker 1: because they didn't want to have the JAB.
[49:51] Speaker 2: And yeah, so at the same time, we've got this,
[49:55] Speaker 2: like we've just got such a chaotic environment on the compound.
[49:58] Speaker 2: We're all in fight or flight constantly, and yeah, it's
[50:04] Speaker 2: just it becomes about survival. I was literally living off
[50:07] Speaker 2: the kindness of other people. I won't deny that I
[50:11] Speaker 2: was in exchange for me doing paperwork for them, which
[50:14] Speaker 2: at the time I believed was effective and stuff like that.
[50:18] Speaker 2: It ultimately turned out to be well, obviously not effective.
[50:23] Speaker 2: But I'd be doing all this paperwork and in exchange,
[50:27] Speaker 2: they'd cook me meals. They you know, they drive me
[50:31] Speaker 2: to places that I needed to go.
[50:33] Speaker 1: Yeah, so you know how long were you you?
[50:37] Speaker 2: Therefore, I was on the compound from Christmas Day of
[50:41] Speaker 2: twenty twenty one all the way up until sometime in
[50:43] Speaker 2: mid October twenty twenty two.
[50:45] Speaker 1: And it got bad to the point where you and
[50:49] Speaker 1: the local police knew you by this stage. And I'm
[50:51] Speaker 1: sure you were popular among the local police when they
[50:54] Speaker 1: were dealing with you. But we'll get into that when
[50:57] Speaker 1: you've seen the light. Well, actually, just tell us before
[51:03] Speaker 1: you went to the police for help, just tell us
[51:05] Speaker 1: your interactions with the police, the local police when you
[51:08] Speaker 1: go into the police station.
[51:09] Speaker 2: The big one was me refusing a breath lizer. So
[51:15] Speaker 2: they already knew that I was doing a lot of
[51:19] Speaker 2: the pavework for a lot of these other people because
[51:21] Speaker 2: they'd see me as a witness on it. They'd see,
[51:24] Speaker 2: you know, the same kind of themes all the time,
[51:26] Speaker 2: and so they knew of me. And then the big
[51:29] Speaker 2: one was when well, obviously the police came and they
[51:33] Speaker 2: kind of sorted out the whole family court thing, like
[51:36] Speaker 2: thirty officers all of a sudden just just send it
[51:40] Speaker 2: on the place. And the conveniently, the alpha male was
[51:44] Speaker 2: off on a weekend retreat somewhere, so I was kind
[51:47] Speaker 2: of left to just like, oh shit, you know it's me.
[51:51] Speaker 2: I'm supposed to be. I was told by him as
[51:53] Speaker 2: well that I was kind of responsible for protecting her,
[51:57] Speaker 2: and you know, I was doing everything I could trying
[51:59] Speaker 2: to negotiating the family court and ultimately pointless because I
[52:03] Speaker 2: didn't know what I was doing. So they knew of
[52:06] Speaker 2: me then and they kind of met me then. And
[52:08] Speaker 2: then then they got me driving along the highway with
[52:13] Speaker 2: no license and so pulled me over and they tried
[52:18] Speaker 2: to do a breathalyzer on me, and I refuse. I
[52:20] Speaker 2: wasn't even drinking, Like I don't drink. I haven't drunk
[52:22] Speaker 2: or smoked anywheed or anything till when I quit when
[52:25] Speaker 2: I was like twenty twenty one years old. I've been
[52:27] Speaker 2: clean for years. At this point, I was just so
[52:30] Speaker 2: kind of such a smart ass and so arrogant that
[52:35] Speaker 2: I would be, well, I'm not the name, how could
[52:37] Speaker 2: I possibly do a breath lot? I was not refusing,
[52:40] Speaker 2: I was asking questions.
[52:45] Speaker 1: Brilliant plane that ending well, so, you know.
[52:49] Speaker 2: So they arrested me and I was in the back
[52:52] Speaker 2: of the paddy wagon and taken down to the local
[52:55] Speaker 2: area command, and then I was in the cells, just
[52:58] Speaker 2: doing a bit of a workout, trying to pass the time.
[53:02] Speaker 2: A couple of burpies, couple push ups.
[53:03] Speaker 1: Yeah, well that's what they do on the movies.
[53:05] Speaker 2: So what I thought, Yeah, this is great. So anyway
[53:10] Speaker 2: I was. They'd bring me out of the cells every
[53:14] Speaker 2: five to ten minutes, the police, and each each time
[53:18] Speaker 2: there'd be more police around because the first time they
[53:21] Speaker 2: brought me out and they're like, so give us your name,
[53:24] Speaker 2: you know, give us your details, all that's something maybe
[53:26] Speaker 2: you know, jumping through the hoops, you know, dance monkey
[53:29] Speaker 2: dance kind of thing. And the next time they bring
[53:33] Speaker 2: me out, instead of three officers, there were six. And
[53:37] Speaker 2: then I'd do the same thing again and they'd all
[53:38] Speaker 2: be watching like and trying to like kind of throw
[53:41] Speaker 2: it back at me with all the things that I
[53:45] Speaker 2: was saying. And then they put me back in, and
[53:47] Speaker 2: then the third time they bring me out, and now
[53:50] Speaker 2: they've got the like the head sergeant off of the
[53:53] Speaker 2: stations there, and there's ten cops around him and they're
[53:56] Speaker 2: all watching me, like what's he going to do this time?
[53:59] Speaker 2: And then I've been Actually they had figured out who
[54:01] Speaker 2: I was, and they they'd run me through the system
[54:05] Speaker 2: and they just put a piece of paper in front
[54:07] Speaker 2: of me and they said sign this. And often what
[54:13] Speaker 2: we would do is when we signed things, we'd write
[54:16] Speaker 2: our own conditions on it. We'd cross things out and go,
[54:19] Speaker 2: I know, I don't agree with that. I'd be treating
[54:22] Speaker 2: everything like a negotiation, even though I was handcuffed very
[54:27] Speaker 2: I guess Jack Sparrow of me in a way, so
[54:30] Speaker 2: I was, yeah, i'd be I'd write, you know, something
[54:35] Speaker 2: on the paperwork in my opinion that would void it.
[54:38] Speaker 2: And then he ripped it away from me, and then
[54:41] Speaker 2: they threw me out onto the street and off I went,
[54:45] Speaker 2: and I was there for several hours. But that was
[54:47] Speaker 2: like the big one because I'd refused a breathalyzer. Anyone,
[54:51] Speaker 2: anyone who's who knows about refusing a breathalyzer, it's a
[54:54] Speaker 2: big deal, Like I lost my license for two years
[54:58] Speaker 2: after after that point that I to go on an
[55:00] Speaker 2: interlock for like six months, and I wasn't even drinking.
[55:05] Speaker 2: I just had this like fanastic story.
[55:08] Speaker 1: But you stood by your principles.
[55:11] Speaker 2: I did to my own detriments ideas.
[55:14] Speaker 1: Yes, well, I mean, I'm enjoying this, but we're going
[55:19] Speaker 1: to take take a break, like you've totally sold it
[55:22] Speaker 1: to me on this sovereign citizenship, whether you sign up
[55:26] Speaker 1: like I'm saying, I can't see how this could go bad,
[55:30] Speaker 1: but just a listener warning, it does in fact go bad.
[55:35] Speaker 1: And when we come back in part two, we're going
[55:37] Speaker 1: to talk about the reason that next time you went
[55:40] Speaker 1: into the police, or shortly after there you're going into
[55:43] Speaker 1: the police asking for help, and we're going to talk
[55:46] Speaker 1: about you've sold sovereign citizenship to us. But now for
[55:50] Speaker 1: part two, I want you to one pick where you
[55:52] Speaker 1: realize that all the stuff that you're saying here doesn't
[55:56] Speaker 1: necessarily make sense. Now you've already told us your a
[56:00] Speaker 1: renowned poet, and yeah, possibly the best poet in the
[56:04] Speaker 1: history of the world. I've heard that that's the word
[56:09] Speaker 1: on the street. I'm going to give you a task
[56:11] Speaker 1: while we have a break. We've never had a poet,
[56:14] Speaker 1: or certainly not the world's best poet on I Catch Killers.
[56:19] Speaker 1: So in the break, if you'd be kind enough to,
[56:21] Speaker 1: we'll give you a bit of time just to draft
[56:24] Speaker 1: up a poem that reflects your appearance on my Catch Killers.
[56:28] Speaker 1: That would be really appreciated. I'd love to We'll do
[56:30] Speaker 1: that when we get back. Okay, thank you, all right,
[56:33] Speaker 1: pers

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