# BONUS: 12 months on, Kathleen Kirby is still waiting for justice for Audrey

An episode of [I Catch Killers with Gary Jubelin](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1506667049), 31 Mar 2026, 1 h 01 min.

Audio: https://p.podderapp.com/2544644999/traffic.omny.fm/d/clips/2fb3740d-3436-44af-8cc0-a91900716aa5/5bc8c2ed-b718-4f44-beb3-ac2a005246cc/a674de68-1671-41e4-b53b-b41d017e96dc/audio.mp3?utm_source=Podcast&in_playlist=786928c3-10c1-4cef-a7bf-ac2a005246d0

Twelve months after the brutal murder of her daughter Audrey Griffin, Kathleen Kirby returns to discuss the "numb" reality of her life. Unable to grieve while fighting for justice, Kathleen has stepped in where the system failed - organising community walks and personally tracking down overlooked CCTV footage. Gary and Kathleen explore the devastating "ripple effect" of homicide and the lack of support for families left behind, from administrative coldness regarding Audrey’s belongings to the confusing pain of waiting for a coroner’s report. Listen to Kathleen's previous interview on I Catch Killers here: Part 1 & Part 2. Questions for Gary: icatchkillers@news.com.au Get in touch with the show by joining our Facebook group, and visiting us on Instagram or Tiktok. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

## Transcript

[0:01] Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.
[0:05] Speaker 1: Detective see aside of life the average persons never exposed
[0:08] Speaker 1: to I spent thirty four years as a cop. For
[0:11] Speaker 1: twenty five of those years I was catching killers. That's
[0:14] Speaker 1: what I did for a living. I was a homicide detective.
[0:17] Speaker 1: I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead, I'm taking
[0:21] Speaker 1: the public into the world in which I operated. The
[0:23] Speaker 1: guests I talk to each week have amazing stories from
[0:26] Speaker 1: all sides of the law. The interviews are raw and honest,
[0:29] Speaker 1: just like the people I talked to. Some of the
[0:31] Speaker 1: content and language might be confronting. That's because no one
[0:34] Speaker 1: who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged. Join
[0:38] Speaker 1: me now as I take you into this world. This
[0:46] Speaker 1: is an important follow up bonus episode to I Catch Killers.
[0:51] Speaker 1: Last September, I spoke to Kathleen Kirby, whose daughter Audrey Griffin,
[0:56] Speaker 1: was brutally murdered on the central coast of New South Wales.
[1:00] Speaker 1: It was one of the saddest conversations I've had on
[1:02] Speaker 1: my Catch Killers. Kathleen spoke about the devastation of losing
[1:06] Speaker 1: her daughter in a random act of violence that destroyed lives.
[1:11] Speaker 1: The murderer, fifty three year old Adrian Torrance, was a violent,
[1:14] Speaker 1: despicable man who had a history of violence against women,
[1:18] Speaker 1: and when court for Audrey's murder, took his own life
[1:21] Speaker 1: in prison. Kathleen was not only dealing with the loss
[1:25] Speaker 1: of her daughter, but trying to get answers as to
[1:27] Speaker 1: why Audrey's death was initially written off as misadventure and
[1:31] Speaker 1: why Tyrants was not in custody at the time of
[1:34] Speaker 1: the murder. So I thought we would check in with
[1:36] Speaker 1: Kathleen and see if any of those questions have been answered. Kathleen,
[1:42] Speaker 1: thanks for coming back on to the podcast.
[1:46] Speaker 2: Thank you Gary, Thank you for having me once again.
[1:50] Speaker 2: It's been a big year.
[1:54] Speaker 1: We've been in touch a lot, and I knowed the
[1:57] Speaker 1: pain that you're going And it's been twelve months since
[2:00] Speaker 1: Audrey was murdered than the how has your life changed
[2:05] Speaker 1: from that time?
[2:06] Speaker 2: Oh, Look, to be honest, I'm not feeling anything. I'm numb.
[2:12] Speaker 2: I'm just you know, I'm just completely numb. I you know,
[2:18] Speaker 2: people are saying to me every day how strong I've been,
[2:21] Speaker 2: and you know, for doing what I'm doing. But I
[2:25] Speaker 2: just feel, to be honest, that for me, I can't
[2:30] Speaker 2: allow myself to grieve as yet in a way that
[2:34] Speaker 2: I probably need to, because what I need to do
[2:37] Speaker 2: first is make sure that my daughter has justice for
[2:42] Speaker 2: what happened to her. And so for me, I don't
[2:46] Speaker 2: want to fall to pieces. I want to keep strong
[2:49] Speaker 2: and I want to keep fighting this to make this
[2:52] Speaker 2: a better and safer place as well, you know, for
[2:56] Speaker 2: this not to happen again. In regards to just getting
[3:00] Speaker 2: through the year, Yes, there's been a lot of roller coasters.
[3:03] Speaker 2: The family. It's pulled the family, you know, her friends,
[3:09] Speaker 2: you know, a lot of them have had to you know,
[3:11] Speaker 2: have pulled out of UNI and then you know, kind
[3:14] Speaker 2: of trying to find their ways. It's just it really
[3:17] Speaker 2: really has affected so many people on so many levels.
[3:22] Speaker 1: Yeah, it's I don't think people understand the ripple effect
[3:26] Speaker 1: when one life is taken, the amount of people that
[3:31] Speaker 1: it affects.
[3:33] Speaker 2: And what support is not out there for them as well,
[3:37] Speaker 2: you know, like under these circumstances, there should have been
[3:41] Speaker 2: a lot more support. You know. Once again, you know,
[3:44] Speaker 2: we seem to always want to help the ones that
[3:48] Speaker 2: are not kind of out there trying to better their life,
[3:51] Speaker 2: and then you've got all these young girls that are
[3:53] Speaker 2: at UNI and you know, doing sports, and you know,
[3:56] Speaker 2: and I just feel that there was no support whatsoever
[4:00] Speaker 2: for them as well, you know, and their parents are
[4:02] Speaker 2: paying you know, big dollars for them to have counseling,
[4:05] Speaker 2: and you know, myself, even myself, you know, there's there's
[4:09] Speaker 2: victim support, but that's nine to five Monday to Friday.
[4:13] Speaker 2: How can I you know.
[4:15] Speaker 1: We're talking talking about that a month or so ago,
[4:18] Speaker 1: weren't we. Yeah, sometimes the lowest point can be at nighttime,
[4:24] Speaker 1: after business hours and no one to no.
[4:27] Speaker 2: One to call because during the day, you know, you know,
[4:30] Speaker 2: I've got Audrey's dog, and you know, I try and
[4:33] Speaker 2: get him down to the water. He's the one that
[4:35] Speaker 2: pretty much keeps me getting me out of bed at
[4:38] Speaker 2: the moment. You know, I have a lot of a
[4:40] Speaker 2: lot of days now where I do spend a few
[4:43] Speaker 2: days in bed, you know, like I've just kind of
[4:46] Speaker 2: got my own place now Intarigo where I'm landing for
[4:49] Speaker 2: a little while so that I can try and you know,
[4:53] Speaker 2: just get on top of all this that, you know,
[4:55] Speaker 2: waiting for the coroner's report to come back and finding
[4:57] Speaker 2: out what really did happen.
[4:59] Speaker 3: Yeah, Well, that's been the frustration.
[5:02] Speaker 1: And I think we did the podcast September and it's
[5:06] Speaker 1: virtually twelve months to the day that Audrey was murdered.
[5:11] Speaker 1: And the thing that I came away because we had
[5:13] Speaker 1: a lot of conversations before the podcast and after the podcast,
[5:17] Speaker 1: and you had a lot of questions that you want
[5:20] Speaker 1: wanted answers too, and I think at the end of
[5:24] Speaker 1: the podcast and we'll discuss the things and I want
[5:26] Speaker 1: to find out whether you have got answers to them.
[5:29] Speaker 1: But I made a commitment to you that i'd at
[5:32] Speaker 1: least contact the contact the police and see if I
[5:35] Speaker 1: could find the answers to that. And we got back
[5:38] Speaker 1: at Santa fairly detailed requests to the police.
[5:41] Speaker 3: From the media.
[5:43] Speaker 1: On the questions that you had, the questions that you
[5:46] Speaker 1: wanted answer, and the response that we got back from
[5:49] Speaker 1: the police was fairly brief that as this case will
[5:53] Speaker 1: be subject to a coronial inquest, New South Wales Police
[5:56] Speaker 1: will not provide further comment. I can see the expression
[6:01] Speaker 1: on your face and frustration, anger, sadness, the whole range
[6:06] Speaker 1: of emotions the inquest. Do you know when the inquest
[6:09] Speaker 1: is going to be up and running?
[6:11] Speaker 2: No, no, not at this stage, I have been informed
[6:16] Speaker 2: that I did pop my head in because when we
[6:18] Speaker 2: did the walk for Audrey from Gosford to are in
[6:22] Speaker 2: a Creek, which two hundred people showed up all in
[6:26] Speaker 2: white once again to support us, I did pop my
[6:31] Speaker 2: head in and had a bit of a chat and
[6:33] Speaker 2: just said, look where all we're at, just to let
[6:36] Speaker 2: them know that we are doing the walk. This is
[6:38] Speaker 2: a peaceful walk.
[6:39] Speaker 3: Listens to the police station, your.
[6:40] Speaker 2: Pop cared, and just to say, look, we are doing
[6:43] Speaker 2: a walk. It's not aggressive, it's not violent, it's light
[6:47] Speaker 2: and love for Audrey. And I did ask questions of
[6:53] Speaker 2: where it's at, and he said they had actually put
[6:56] Speaker 2: it across to the coroner, and that also just pretty
[7:01] Speaker 2: much they were saying that they had done you know,
[7:03] Speaker 2: when I questioned, he said to me, we did do
[7:06] Speaker 2: our job. And I said, well, if you had done
[7:10] Speaker 2: your job, then why was I out there doing what
[7:14] Speaker 2: I was doing, and you know, finding phones, door knocking
[7:18] Speaker 2: to find out that you hadn't done so and and
[7:22] Speaker 2: he's and I said, and what and if even if
[7:24] Speaker 2: it was under an investigation, why would they let me
[7:28] Speaker 2: as a mother coming to the station every couple of
[7:32] Speaker 2: days saying this is not a misadventure. Why would they
[7:36] Speaker 2: let me go through that? Like, why knowing that I
[7:40] Speaker 2: was door knocking, knowing that I was talking to people.
[7:43] Speaker 2: Since then, I have caught up with his ex wife
[7:46] Speaker 2: ye and his mate and had to chat with them
[7:50] Speaker 2: because the ex his mate turned around and said that
[7:54] Speaker 2: he had some stuff that I needed to know after
[7:57] Speaker 2: watching your podcast, the one we last done, and yeah,
[8:01] Speaker 2: like you know, and even to that, it was I
[8:05] Speaker 2: was informed that he was in casino after he murdered Audrey.
[8:10] Speaker 2: And now I've found out by speaking to his wife
[8:14] Speaker 2: and she said he wasn't at casino because they were
[8:18] Speaker 2: looking for him.
[8:18] Speaker 3: Yeah.
[8:19] Speaker 1: Look, Kathleen, I suppose what I learned as a homicide
[8:23] Speaker 1: detective is that there's a lot of information that comes
[8:25] Speaker 1: in and you can call them rumors, and quite often
[8:29] Speaker 1: when you go back to the source of it, that's
[8:30] Speaker 1: one person telling another person something and that gets passed
[8:33] Speaker 1: on and lost in translation, and when you follow up
[8:36] Speaker 1: the investigation, you find that there's no substance to that
[8:39] Speaker 1: information that's not making excuses the reality of it. And
[8:44] Speaker 1: I suppose that people who haven't heard the two episodes
[8:47] Speaker 1: we did where we talked about exactly what happened. If
[8:50] Speaker 1: they're listening to this, it's probably a good idea to
[8:52] Speaker 1: go back and listen to those two episodes. But in summary, Audrey,
[8:57] Speaker 1: your daughter was walking home in the early hours of
[9:00] Speaker 1: the morning and she didn't arrive home. She'd left the
[9:04] Speaker 1: left a hotel. She wasn't drunk, and that's what's been firmly,
[9:10] Speaker 1: firmly established. Nineteen year old drugs no drugs, had a
[9:14] Speaker 1: whole life ahead of her. She was about to join
[9:16] Speaker 1: or had joined the Navy and was about to go
[9:19] Speaker 1: down and start the training. She was physically active, she
[9:23] Speaker 1: was an athlete, a swimmer, and she was found deceased
[9:27] Speaker 1: in a waterway that's described as a creek. It's a
[9:32] Speaker 1: river type creek that runs along a road leading from Gosford.
[9:37] Speaker 1: How that was written off and you were told that
[9:41] Speaker 1: there was nothing suspicious about it's misadventure. So we've got
[9:44] Speaker 1: a situation where your daughter's just walking home, not drunk,
[9:48] Speaker 1: and has just fallen into a river and drowned and.
[9:52] Speaker 2: Been on the phone to her girlfriend's all the way
[9:54] Speaker 2: home chatting.
[9:55] Speaker 1: And from that from that scene, and we won't go
[9:59] Speaker 1: into the details, people can have it listened to the
[10:01] Speaker 1: first podcast that we did with you, but her phone
[10:05] Speaker 1: wasn't found. She had DNA from the offender, the person
[10:09] Speaker 1: who was charged with a murder, under her.
[10:11] Speaker 2: Fingernails, a left index finger.
[10:14] Speaker 1: And I said it on the last podcast, and I
[10:17] Speaker 1: say it on this podcast. How the hell did please
[10:20] Speaker 1: not treat that as suspicious from the outset?
[10:23] Speaker 2: Well, Garry, can I just say too, you know, like
[10:26] Speaker 2: I'm still searching, I'm still door knocking, you know, I'm
[10:30] Speaker 2: still going down backstreets. Because when i'd actually spoken to
[10:34] Speaker 2: his mate and his wife and so I know that
[10:37] Speaker 2: he went there. Yep, after he murdered, So he went
[10:40] Speaker 2: to Saratoga. They told me that he jumped, that he
[10:44] Speaker 2: headed back to the station and jumped on the train
[10:47] Speaker 2: and headed back. Well, I know he was in Saratoga.
[10:51] Speaker 2: And when I also said previous that my girlfriend saw
[10:56] Speaker 2: him at the site the following Friday after he took
[10:59] Speaker 2: Audrey's life, they denied that. And firstly they told me
[11:04] Speaker 2: when I went to the site when they were doing
[11:06] Speaker 2: a replay, I was informed. I walked up to one
[11:09] Speaker 2: of the constables and said, look, I've been in for
[11:11] Speaker 2: my girlfriend's come in to say that he was here
[11:14] Speaker 2: at the location. She said, yes, he's phone dig to
[11:17] Speaker 2: the location. Then when we obviously had meetings again, we
[11:21] Speaker 2: were told no, it wasn't He was up at casino
[11:26] Speaker 2: that morning. That morning, so only about three or a
[11:30] Speaker 2: couple of weeks back after Christmas, I went and spent
[11:34] Speaker 2: Christmas Day with my mom and just the two of
[11:37] Speaker 2: us just hung out at the nursing home. We didn't
[11:39] Speaker 2: celebrate Christmas at all, the whole family. It just wasn't
[11:44] Speaker 2: right this year. But what I wanted to say is
[11:47] Speaker 2: that that couple of days after I got back, I'd
[11:50] Speaker 2: been informed that there was a camera on the opposite
[11:53] Speaker 2: side of the road, a couple of feet down near
[11:56] Speaker 2: the mower shop, and it's a massive, big camera. When
[12:00] Speaker 2: I knocked on his door, and the boy that lives there,
[12:03] Speaker 2: he works at the Eleanora and he works in the
[12:06] Speaker 2: He works there and he gets home late, and he's
[12:08] Speaker 2: a gamer, and he's also a computer He's always on
[12:11] Speaker 2: his computer. So he said he saw Audrey that morning
[12:15] Speaker 2: because he's dog. He got home early morning, heard the
[12:18] Speaker 2: dogs open the screen, saw Audrey walking, then saw him
[12:21] Speaker 2: walking behind the next morning, the police turned up on
[12:25] Speaker 2: his doorstep and he's got footage of that which I
[12:27] Speaker 2: have now of them going into his house picking up
[12:31] Speaker 2: the footage of Audrey and him behind her, and then
[12:37] Speaker 2: they took the evidence. And then a week later they
[12:40] Speaker 2: came back and got some more and the gentleman actually
[12:43] Speaker 2: said to me, Kathleen, I was so angry. I was
[12:48] Speaker 2: so angry. I gave him footage of him behind her,
[12:52] Speaker 2: and I questioned him on that day, why haven't you
[12:55] Speaker 2: followed through all that light?
[12:56] Speaker 1: So that was a day after that morning, that morning, the.
[13:00] Speaker 2: Day of can I just say too? Audrey's best friend's
[13:03] Speaker 2: father who actually found Audrey, which didn't come through and
[13:09] Speaker 2: tell me earlier, but obviously when we did the podcast,
[13:12] Speaker 2: he felt that he needed to come forward and say more.
[13:16] Speaker 2: When my friend's father found Audrey's bag, he did go
[13:21] Speaker 2: into the water and picked the bag up where he
[13:23] Speaker 2: looked at the identification and identified it was Audrey. The police.
[13:29] Speaker 2: He called the police, told everyone not to go into
[13:31] Speaker 2: the water or do anything else. When the police turned up,
[13:35] Speaker 2: they walked into the water with no gloves, no nothing,
[13:38] Speaker 2: picked up all the belongings, not put him in a bag.
[13:41] Speaker 2: It was no over fenced off. The next day. It
[13:43] Speaker 2: was never a creerent crime scene.
[13:46] Speaker 3: Well, I think I was comfortable.
[13:48] Speaker 1: We established that when I spoke to the last time
[13:52] Speaker 1: or the first time on the podcast and what I
[13:55] Speaker 1: looked at it, and after we sat down and spoke
[13:59] Speaker 1: and lenge me before before you even agreed to come
[14:02] Speaker 1: on the podcast the first time, that I've got to
[14:04] Speaker 1: offer an honest opinion based on my experience as homicide detective,
[14:08] Speaker 1: and I stick to that. And after we did the podcast,
[14:14] Speaker 1: you were preparing documentation for the coroner, the type of
[14:18] Speaker 1: thing that you want, and you were giving me a
[14:20] Speaker 1: lot of information. We had a lot of conversations, and
[14:23] Speaker 1: I broke down sort of four points that the questions
[14:28] Speaker 1: you've got really the murder of Audrey, the investigation or
[14:33] Speaker 1: lack thereof the initial stages of Audrey's murder, and what
[14:39] Speaker 1: happened in the leader, Why was the person that was
[14:41] Speaker 1: charged with Audrey's murder out and about in the first place,
[14:45] Speaker 1: and breaking that down And I made some notes here
[14:48] Speaker 1: because I think it's important and I want to be
[14:49] Speaker 1: very very clear on it. Why was Audrey's murder not
[14:53] Speaker 1: treated as suspicious from the outset?
[14:56] Speaker 3: Can?
[14:56] Speaker 1: And if so, when will the police justify what efforts
[14:59] Speaker 1: they made to apprehend the person accused of Audrey's murder
[15:03] Speaker 1: when he was out on bail committing offenses before his
[15:06] Speaker 1: alleged murder of Audrey. Is there any failings by police?
[15:10] Speaker 1: Will an inquest or an internal police investigation identify these
[15:14] Speaker 1: failings and make changes and recommendations as a result. So
[15:19] Speaker 1: they're the first three points. And on that last one,
[15:22] Speaker 1: I think the thing that concerns me about this. People
[15:27] Speaker 1: make mistakes. Police make mistakes. Everyone makes mistakes. That's one thing.
[15:32] Speaker 1: But if you don't learn by the mistakes, acknowledge the mistakes,
[15:35] Speaker 1: that's where it gets a lot worse. And the fourth
[15:38] Speaker 1: point is there provisions for legal assistance to be provided
[15:42] Speaker 1: to the family so their interests are properly represented at
[15:44] Speaker 1: the inquest. Now that's an interesting one and one that
[15:48] Speaker 1: people don't often think about. But I know, speaking to you,
[15:52] Speaker 1: and I've seen this during my career in the homicide
[15:55] Speaker 1: people like yourself don't get involved in the criminal world,
[15:58] Speaker 1: don't get involved in the justice system, have don't have
[16:00] Speaker 1: dealings with police. You're good people. That's for the other people.
[16:04] Speaker 1: So it's a completely foreign world to you. And some
[16:07] Speaker 1: of the questions that you've asked me about what is
[16:10] Speaker 1: the purpose of the inquest and.
[16:11] Speaker 3: That I'm just shocked.
[16:12] Speaker 1: I'm shocked for you that you have no idea what
[16:16] Speaker 1: the whole purpose purpose of So breaking down in the
[16:20] Speaker 1: conversations that we've had, the inquest is to determine the
[16:23] Speaker 1: cause and manner of a person's death.
[16:25] Speaker 3: Now person has been charged.
[16:27] Speaker 1: I know you don't like mentioning his name, so we
[16:30] Speaker 1: won't mention his name again. The person that was charged
[16:34] Speaker 1: killed himself in prison, you would have potentially got answers
[16:38] Speaker 1: when it went to court about what happened. The evidence
[16:41] Speaker 1: would have been presented. Once this person has taken his
[16:45] Speaker 1: own own life, then we've got a situation that you
[16:49] Speaker 1: haven't got answers, and the answers are what you're looking for.
[16:54] Speaker 1: So breaking down those questions why Audrey's murder was not
[16:59] Speaker 1: true suspicious from the outset, we talked about the fact
[17:03] Speaker 1: that the nineteen year old girl, healthy, nineteen year old
[17:05] Speaker 1: girl walking home has just been found deceased in a
[17:10] Speaker 1: waterway beside the road. One thing I was taught in
[17:15] Speaker 1: homicide that you treat it as suspicious until you can
[17:19] Speaker 1: prove otherwise. And that's an important important thing. My assessment
[17:23] Speaker 1: from what you've told me, is that that that wasn't done.
[17:27] Speaker 1: And I go as far as to say, if you
[17:29] Speaker 1: didn't campaign and push police and push police, this very
[17:33] Speaker 1: well could have been written off as a misadventure.
[17:36] Speaker 2: That's my way, I believe, definitely, that's.
[17:38] Speaker 1: My interpretation of it.
[17:40] Speaker 2: What's definitely, oh definitely, like you you know, they mode
[17:44] Speaker 2: the grass the day after. The council mode the grass
[17:47] Speaker 2: the day after. It was never a crime scene. And
[17:50] Speaker 2: you know, as we said right from the beginning when
[17:52] Speaker 2: I said where's her phone, everything was just it's a misadventure.
[17:57] Speaker 2: And you know, it was like that was just so crazy.
[18:02] Speaker 2: I mean, you know, those few days were probably not blurry.
[18:06] Speaker 2: I mean, I do come in and out. There's things
[18:09] Speaker 2: that people are telling me. Now that I've just realized
[18:12] Speaker 2: that my girlfriend and her two children, who are pretty
[18:15] Speaker 2: much my family I've been friends with her since I
[18:18] Speaker 2: was too, who practically brought Audrey up with me as well.
[18:22] Speaker 2: I only found out last week that they were on
[18:25] Speaker 2: the scene and found Audrey as well. You know, like,
[18:28] Speaker 2: how do young people go to a station saying there's
[18:32] Speaker 2: a location where her friend didn't come home, and this
[18:36] Speaker 2: is where the location is, and they're all there before
[18:40] Speaker 2: the police, and then they go down there, they find
[18:44] Speaker 2: the belongings and call the police, and then they walk up,
[18:49] Speaker 2: you know, like how from day and then to walk
[18:53] Speaker 2: even the way the one of them walked up to
[18:56] Speaker 2: me and the things they said, everything was just right
[18:59] Speaker 2: from day. It was never ever ever treat as a homicide.
[19:05] Speaker 2: It was, as far as I was concerned, it was
[19:08] Speaker 2: like a young girl walking home. She was probably intoxicated
[19:11] Speaker 2: or on drugs, and she's falling in the water, and
[19:12] Speaker 2: that was it. They didn't actually look at her as
[19:16] Speaker 2: a person like phone me and going, Okay, what type
[19:19] Speaker 2: of person is Audrey? You know, like give us some
[19:22] Speaker 2: information on Audrey. Never ask the question Now when you
[19:25] Speaker 2: thought if they asked all those questions, they would have
[19:28] Speaker 2: went alarm bells. She's a triathlon she's an ocean swimmer.
[19:32] Speaker 2: She's going in the navy. Hey, there has to be
[19:35] Speaker 2: more to this. Nothing.
[19:37] Speaker 1: Well, you asked me to be honest and forthright in
[19:40] Speaker 1: my opinions before you started dealing with me, and I
[19:44] Speaker 1: can tell you, and I'm more than confident I will
[19:47] Speaker 1: argue the point with anyone that wants to argue with
[19:50] Speaker 1: me that that should have been treated there's a suspicious
[19:52] Speaker 1: death right from the start, right from the start, so
[19:56] Speaker 1: many warning signs there, and the protocol for police because
[19:59] Speaker 1: we've given them opportunity to respond to us, and they've
[20:02] Speaker 1: said they don't want to respond until because it's before
[20:05] Speaker 1: the inquest, which a date hasn't even been set. But
[20:10] Speaker 1: why wasn't that true that as a homicide to start with?
[20:13] Speaker 1: Were homicide called? Because the proper protocol is that when
[20:17] Speaker 1: a situation like that occurs, local police contact homicide and assessment.
[20:21] Speaker 1: There is not an assessment homicide or in charge of
[20:24] Speaker 1: the matter from the outset.
[20:25] Speaker 2: I don't believe.
[20:26] Speaker 3: So these are the type.
[20:28] Speaker 1: Of things that you want answers to do. I have
[20:31] Speaker 1: it correct. Were you told there would be an investigation
[20:34] Speaker 1: by police into it? An internal investigation? Was that something
[20:37] Speaker 1: that's ever been suggested?
[20:39] Speaker 2: As I said, right from day one, all I was
[20:41] Speaker 2: ever told, all I was ever told is that it
[20:44] Speaker 2: was a misadventure.
[20:45] Speaker 3: Right and then after it was shown to be a murder.
[20:50] Speaker 2: Then obviously that wasn't well even then, that wasn't until
[20:54] Speaker 2: we Trevor and I were called into Surrey Hill Police
[20:57] Speaker 2: station where we had to there from our locations. We
[21:01] Speaker 2: didn't have anyone come and collect us. We had to
[21:04] Speaker 2: drive there separately because obviously Trevor and I are not together.
[21:09] Speaker 2: We get to Surrey Hill Place station and one of
[21:12] Speaker 2: the constables turned around and said, we've arrested someone for
[21:16] Speaker 2: the murder of Audrey. He said to me their support
[21:19] Speaker 2: out there with Grace House, which they've been lovely, but
[21:23] Speaker 2: as I said, nine to five, nothing, There was no
[21:26] Speaker 2: support for us leaving there. There was no one addressing
[21:31] Speaker 2: us on how or the procedures of what we needed
[21:35] Speaker 2: to do next, or how to go about that or
[21:37] Speaker 2: you know, as I said, we're fish out of order.
[21:40] Speaker 2: I've learned so much. I've had to learn so much.
[21:44] Speaker 1: Are you hoping to get these answers from the inquest?
[21:48] Speaker 2: Is this I'm really hoping? Yes?
[21:49] Speaker 1: And has anyone informed you whether the inquest or look
[21:53] Speaker 1: at the actions of the police and whether they could
[21:54] Speaker 1: be improved, because it concerns me greatly that if this
[21:59] Speaker 1: is the standard of way a nineteen year old girl
[22:01] Speaker 1: found deceased in a waterways is investigated from the outset,
[22:07] Speaker 1: surely we need to have a look at protocols or
[22:10] Speaker 1: reinforce protocols or people that have not followed protocols need
[22:15] Speaker 1: to be disciplined or re educated about it because this
[22:19] Speaker 1: just should not happen.
[22:21] Speaker 2: Oh, Gary, Look, I do have a lawyer and a
[22:24] Speaker 2: barrister that I spoke to a couple of weeks ago
[22:26] Speaker 2: that are on the case with me. Now you know,
[22:29] Speaker 2: they're saying it could be another two years before I
[22:32] Speaker 2: hear anything. That's why I decided to stay on the
[22:35] Speaker 2: coast and just keep hunting and trying to find as
[22:38] Speaker 2: much more information while I'm here. And that was a
[22:43] Speaker 2: little bit of a journey as well, trying to get
[22:45] Speaker 2: that all sorted out. But yeah, as I said, look,
[22:49] Speaker 2: I just I feel like, especially now, I understand people say,
[22:55] Speaker 2: you know, after grief and then the funeral, and then
[22:58] Speaker 2: you know, the year comes and people get on with
[23:02] Speaker 2: their lives, and then she's not forgotten. I know that,
[23:05] Speaker 2: and I know that she will never be forgotten by
[23:07] Speaker 2: her friends and loved ones. But for me, I have
[23:12] Speaker 2: a very tight group of people on the coasts that
[23:15] Speaker 2: have been absolutely amazing. But I'm still alone. I wake
[23:21] Speaker 2: up every morning and I'm alone, and they've got their
[23:27] Speaker 2: lives and they're all helping where they can because they've
[23:30] Speaker 2: all got work to do as well, but for me,
[23:37] Speaker 2: as I said, sometimes I just sit there and I'm like,
[23:40] Speaker 2: do they want me to give up? Is this what
[23:43] Speaker 2: they're hoping for? Are they hoping that I won't? Because
[23:46] Speaker 2: I just feel there's no there's just nothing. It's like
[23:51] Speaker 2: they've allowed someone out of the system that should never
[23:54] Speaker 2: have been out. Audrey was in the wrong place at
[23:58] Speaker 2: the wrong time. She didn't know him, as we said,
[24:02] Speaker 2: she was out celebrating going into the Navy. Two weeks later,
[24:07] Speaker 2: her life was taken because he committed suicide in prison.
[24:11] Speaker 2: The case obviously that side of it, I probably would
[24:15] Speaker 2: never know. And there's just nothing. There's no follow up,
[24:21] Speaker 2: there's no no what if it's not me ringing, texting,
[24:25] Speaker 2: pushing all the time, you know, even in regards like
[24:30] Speaker 2: I was saying, I wanted to you know, so things
[24:33] Speaker 2: are coming fresh every day, there's new stuff coming up.
[24:35] Speaker 2: And even yesterday I was, you know, driving driving into
[24:41] Speaker 2: Sydney yesterday and I thought all those people that came
[24:45] Speaker 2: forward and the witnesses that were with her, like, can
[24:49] Speaker 2: I see those I want to see what they wrote.
[24:51] Speaker 2: I wanted those people that were with her in her
[24:54] Speaker 2: last moments, you know, they've all been pulled in to
[24:58] Speaker 2: have a you know, do a statement, and you know,
[25:01] Speaker 2: I want to know. I don't actually know from that
[25:05] Speaker 2: night that she left Gosford. I do know a little bit,
[25:10] Speaker 2: but I don't know, and I want to know, and
[25:13] Speaker 2: I think as a mother, the courteous thing to do
[25:18] Speaker 2: is to sit down and tell me. And there's people
[25:21] Speaker 2: that know.
[25:23] Speaker 1: Okay, I see what's happening. It's prolonging your grief not knowing,
[25:29] Speaker 1: and that's just let you. You're called up and you're
[25:31] Speaker 1: just your head spinning trying to find out what's happened.
[25:36] Speaker 1: I spoke to you the previous occasion, and you said
[25:40] Speaker 1: to me, would it be normal for people when they
[25:43] Speaker 1: give statements to police and an investigation, that they get
[25:46] Speaker 1: a copy of the statement and there's that statement allowed
[25:48] Speaker 1: to be passed around. I said, look, in my practices,
[25:53] Speaker 1: if I'm investigating a homicide, that wouldn't be the norm
[25:56] Speaker 1: that we would hand out and a statement because it
[25:59] Speaker 1: potentially could be part on to someone and there could
[26:01] Speaker 1: be a contamination. So I always err on the side
[26:04] Speaker 1: of caution to protect the integrity of the investigation. But
[26:08] Speaker 1: you explain that to the families, and the families see
[26:12] Speaker 1: what's going on. I was taught and I passed this
[26:15] Speaker 1: on and I'd like to think that people look at
[26:18] Speaker 1: it this way as well. I would always say the families,
[26:21] Speaker 1: the questions that you're asking that I can't answer them
[26:24] Speaker 1: right now. The reason I can't answer them is because
[26:27] Speaker 1: the matter is before the court. I will at some
[26:30] Speaker 1: point in time sit down with you and go through
[26:32] Speaker 1: everything and explain any questions that you have, or answer
[26:36] Speaker 1: any questions that you have. Where this situation, I think
[26:41] Speaker 1: is a little bit different, is that what's happened after
[26:47] Speaker 1: Audrey was found found de ceased and the lack of investigation,
[26:50] Speaker 1: and I think that's something that needs to be addressed
[26:53] Speaker 1: pronto otherwise it can occur again. And if these are
[26:56] Speaker 1: the practices that across the state, we need to do
[26:59] Speaker 1: something so this type of thing can't happen because someone
[27:02] Speaker 1: makes a judgment call that this was misadventure and then
[27:06] Speaker 1: you don't do any follow up. That's not the way
[27:08] Speaker 1: policing should should work. But now, for the life of me,
[27:13] Speaker 1: I can't see why the police can't sit down with
[27:15] Speaker 1: you and go through everything that was being done. It's
[27:19] Speaker 1: an inquest, it's not a criminal court.
[27:20] Speaker 3: That's coming up.
[27:21] Speaker 1: It's an inquest. It's a public inquiry into finding out
[27:25] Speaker 1: what's happened. I don't see how sitting down with you
[27:28] Speaker 1: and explaining some of the things, some of the questions
[27:31] Speaker 1: you've got because you don't know when the inquest is
[27:33] Speaker 1: coming up there, That's what I mean.
[27:35] Speaker 2: Like even when I went to see them the other day,
[27:37] Speaker 2: Like why am I kept in the dark? You know?
[27:41] Speaker 2: Like why am I? Why is no one telling me anything?
[27:44] Speaker 2: You know? Like I understand that it's got but as
[27:47] Speaker 2: you know, as I've been informed, even the inquest, nothing
[27:50] Speaker 2: can come with that. All I can do is find
[27:52] Speaker 2: out the information, and even then with the coroner, he
[27:56] Speaker 2: may decide not to I don't know do I get
[28:00] Speaker 2: the opportunity to hear the whole, Like you know, I've
[28:04] Speaker 2: a couple of weeks, two weeks ago one of the
[28:07] Speaker 2: constables actually rang the head lady that's been involved with
[28:11] Speaker 2: this from day dot with me to get a have
[28:15] Speaker 2: an interview and have a chat with her. And I'm
[28:17] Speaker 2: like twelve months later. You know that some of them
[28:21] Speaker 2: were seven months later. Like I don't understand.
[28:25] Speaker 1: If and with all the emotion floating around in your head,
[28:29] Speaker 1: I try to break it down in simple, simple terms
[28:33] Speaker 1: with the inquest it's cause and manner of Audrey's death,
[28:37] Speaker 1: which is that that's understandable. But the coroner does also
[28:41] Speaker 1: have powers to look at the way the police responded
[28:44] Speaker 1: to The.
[28:44] Speaker 2: Investigator can't action on it, though, can they.
[28:47] Speaker 1: They can make recommendations, but recommendations whether they come into place.
[28:51] Speaker 1: But on the face of it, what you've told me
[28:54] Speaker 1: and the information I've got, and we get nothing back
[28:57] Speaker 1: from the police because all these questions that talking about here,
[29:01] Speaker 1: That's why I wanted to get the police side of things,
[29:03] Speaker 1: and I was hoping that we'd get an answer. But
[29:05] Speaker 1: it comes down to it will not comment because it's
[29:08] Speaker 1: subject to a cranial inquest of which a date hasn't
[29:11] Speaker 1: been hasn't been set.
[29:13] Speaker 3: I would have thought there'd be.
[29:14] Speaker 1: Some sort of internal investigation about the situation that happened here,
[29:19] Speaker 1: because I just it doesn't sit right with me. And yeah,
[29:24] Speaker 1: I see the pain you're going through. Losing your daughter
[29:27] Speaker 1: is painful, But when you lost your daughter and you're
[29:30] Speaker 1: not getting the answers that you should be should be getting.
[29:33] Speaker 2: And then this is it, Garry like, I will not
[29:36] Speaker 2: stop and this is not even for me about you know,
[29:42] Speaker 2: as I've said, people say to me all the time,
[29:44] Speaker 2: you know, thank you, thank you for trying to make
[29:47] Speaker 2: a change, and or not trying. Thank you for doing this,
[29:50] Speaker 2: and you know you will get change or you will this.
[29:53] Speaker 2: And it's like, but you've got to understand first, I
[29:58] Speaker 2: cannot get change on this. I get justice for Audrey.
[30:01] Speaker 2: Change is justice for Audrey, and then they'll be changed.
[30:05] Speaker 2: I will not stop.
[30:07] Speaker 3: I will not see what do you say is justice
[30:09] Speaker 3: for Audrey?
[30:10] Speaker 2: What would you can say everyone that's accountable, Like, I
[30:12] Speaker 2: don't even know if the constables that were involved in
[30:16] Speaker 2: the situation, if there was a higher place coming up,
[30:19] Speaker 2: someone higher that was telling them not to action on
[30:22] Speaker 2: these situations. I'm not pointing the finger. I'm just what
[30:27] Speaker 2: I'm saying is this wasn't done. I've questioned I've questioned them.
[30:32] Speaker 2: I've looked them in the eyes, and they've just looked
[30:34] Speaker 2: at me and said, Kathleen, it's a misadventure, over and
[30:37] Speaker 2: over and over. And you know, even to the fact,
[30:42] Speaker 2: after as I said, when I saw Audrey for the
[30:45] Speaker 2: last time and everything, everything, even the coroner after seeing her,
[30:51] Speaker 2: I feel everything was just put down as a misadventure.
[30:55] Speaker 2: Because for what I was told, how she was going
[30:58] Speaker 2: to look and what they did to her wasn't she
[31:01] Speaker 2: hadn't been touched. As far as I'm concerned, I think
[31:07] Speaker 2: they wrote it off as a misadventure.
[31:09] Speaker 1: And yeah, and this is your thoughts, and I'm offering
[31:13] Speaker 1: an opinion based on my expertise as homicide. If it
[31:17] Speaker 1: was written off as a misadventure, a mistake has been made.
[31:22] Speaker 1: As I've said, we all make mistakes. And I've found
[31:24] Speaker 1: you more than reasonable in your attitude towards police. It's
[31:29] Speaker 1: not like vindictive.
[31:30] Speaker 2: You just yeah, I've never been naster.
[31:32] Speaker 1: Yeah, trying to get trying to get answers if mistakes
[31:36] Speaker 1: were made, who made that judgment call to write this
[31:40] Speaker 1: off as a misadventure and what's happened to that person?
[31:43] Speaker 1: Is that person still to this day doing the same
[31:46] Speaker 1: the same thing, And it's concerning so and.
[31:50] Speaker 2: That's not and you know, when we talk about mistakes,
[31:54] Speaker 2: there's more than one person involved here, So how can
[31:57] Speaker 2: we all how can they all make a mistake? You know?
[32:00] Speaker 2: And when I walk in there and I explained to
[32:03] Speaker 2: them after I've been to see Audrey, wouldn't that rattle
[32:09] Speaker 2: you to kind of go yeah, this is and all
[32:13] Speaker 2: the stories people are saying the community coming together like.
[32:17] Speaker 1: Yeah, so if there's a problem in the system, if
[32:20] Speaker 1: we're not attacking the individuals, we're attacking the process and
[32:24] Speaker 1: the system that this could fall through the gaps. There's
[32:28] Speaker 1: another And I consider this more more concerning from looking
[32:33] Speaker 1: at it, and I've spoken to you about it that
[32:36] Speaker 1: one of the points that we talked about, can police
[32:41] Speaker 1: justify the actions they made to locate him when he
[32:45] Speaker 1: was breaching he's breaching his avios? Now he was on
[32:48] Speaker 1: the community corrections order from January I believe, So that
[32:52] Speaker 1: was January two thousand and twenty five when he was
[32:57] Speaker 1: charged with Audrey's murder. Was also charged with breaching eleven
[33:02] Speaker 1: counts of breaching AVOs I believe.
[33:05] Speaker 2: And then there was stories of the week before that
[33:08] Speaker 2: he was you know, he'd been on a bender for
[33:11] Speaker 2: like four days of drugs and alcohol, Like, how is
[33:15] Speaker 2: someone able to do that?
[33:18] Speaker 1: Well, my question is, and this is something that I
[33:21] Speaker 1: think really needs to be asked because I think as
[33:24] Speaker 1: a nation, we're tired of these people that afflicting violence
[33:28] Speaker 1: on women out on bail when they shouldn't be on bail,
[33:32] Speaker 1: not questioning the court decision.
[33:33] Speaker 3: What I'm questioning, because this.
[33:35] Speaker 1: Is the only area I've got expertise in, is what
[33:39] Speaker 1: did the police do when he was breaching those AVOs? Now,
[33:42] Speaker 1: some of those breaches, as I understand it, and this
[33:45] Speaker 1: is just from the information I've gathered, was via his telephone.
[33:49] Speaker 1: How can police say they can't find him when he's
[33:51] Speaker 1: using his telephone to commit these offenses, making threats on
[33:55] Speaker 1: his phone?
[33:56] Speaker 3: It's pretty simple.
[33:57] Speaker 1: So I would be one thing that and this is
[34:01] Speaker 1: in discussions with you, and I tried to articulate it
[34:04] Speaker 1: into a specific point on what needs to be addressed
[34:09] Speaker 1: is what actions were done to find him when he
[34:14] Speaker 1: was breaching the AVOs before Audrey was killed. Now it's
[34:18] Speaker 1: obvious what I'm saying here, if those actions were done,
[34:22] Speaker 1: maybe Audrey wouldn't have been that random victim that she
[34:26] Speaker 1: she became.
[34:26] Speaker 2: Well, you know, even as I said, I caught up
[34:29] Speaker 2: with his wife and she said, oh, you know, he
[34:31] Speaker 2: was calling me thirteen times. I mean she never reported that.
[34:35] Speaker 1: Well I heard or read or saw something that she said.
[34:40] Speaker 1: She got to the point where she didn't bother phone
[34:42] Speaker 1: in the police because it happened so many times.
[34:44] Speaker 2: And then how those conversations that she had on its phone,
[34:49] Speaker 2: and she said she was blocking him, but yet ringing him.
[34:52] Speaker 2: When you block a phone, someone can't ring you. So
[34:54] Speaker 2: all that, and did the police actually go to her,
[34:57] Speaker 2: did they get her records? Did they see there was communication?
[35:00] Speaker 2: Did they find out if he had a different phone
[35:03] Speaker 2: or a different phone number? Do you know what I mean?
[35:05] Speaker 2: Like all this stuff, it's like to me, it's yeah,
[35:09] Speaker 2: I just don't think for one minute they did any
[35:12] Speaker 2: chasing at all.
[35:13] Speaker 1: Well, you are asked for my advice and thoughts on it,
[35:17] Speaker 1: and I made that commitment. My biggest concern is what
[35:22] Speaker 1: efforts were made to locate him. Now, what I'm also
[35:25] Speaker 1: saying here is those records are readily obtainable with the police.
[35:29] Speaker 1: Like the police, when you do something, you keeping records.
[35:32] Speaker 1: So if they've got the records there, they'll be able
[35:35] Speaker 1: to show well, on such and such a date, we
[35:37] Speaker 1: did this, we did this, follow up, we did this.
[35:40] Speaker 1: I would be asking, as you're said to me, and
[35:45] Speaker 1: in discussions with your solicitor, where are those records? Have
[35:49] Speaker 1: police got those records? Can they demonstrate what they did
[35:53] Speaker 1: in an effort to find him before he murdered Audrey Well?
[35:57] Speaker 2: This is what I'm saying. Also, too simple question. They
[36:00] Speaker 2: said to me after he took Audrey's life, that he
[36:04] Speaker 2: went back to the train station, and what I was
[36:05] Speaker 2: told he had mud on his shoes and he was
[36:07] Speaker 2: at the station. And now on that video clip that
[36:13] Speaker 2: I picked up from that gentleman of him walking, he
[36:16] Speaker 2: has twenty four hours after that, he's not walking past. Yeah,
[36:21] Speaker 2: so all those questions, were they looking for him at all?
[36:25] Speaker 2: Were they doing anything after they knew that? I mean,
[36:28] Speaker 2: they must have known that photo behind him, Like when
[36:31] Speaker 2: as I said to you, when I saw that photo,
[36:34] Speaker 2: and I said to him, why didn't I see that
[36:37] Speaker 2: photo of him walking behind her? And he said because
[36:40] Speaker 2: he was twenty meters exactly four minutes behind and it
[36:44] Speaker 2: was irrelevant.
[36:45] Speaker 3: Well, we've been out to the scene.
[36:48] Speaker 1: I know the scene, well, I know the location well,
[36:50] Speaker 1: and yeah, four minutes behind that's a straight road.
[36:53] Speaker 2: And we did it on Sunday. Yeah, we did the
[36:56] Speaker 2: walk on Sunday.
[36:57] Speaker 1: So anyone that's in the vicinity and the.
[37:00] Speaker 2: Car's going pass, yeah, like why didn't they stop? And
[37:04] Speaker 2: you know, why didn't they straight away get onto all
[37:07] Speaker 2: the taxis and the ubers for cam you know, like
[37:11] Speaker 2: there was this, and I kept asking, and when I
[37:13] Speaker 2: kept saying, I want to see all the footage, they
[37:15] Speaker 2: kept saying to me, Oh, it's in Sydney. It's in Sydney.
[37:18] Speaker 2: And then two and a half weeks later when they
[37:20] Speaker 2: finally finally say to me, yes, you can come in.
[37:23] Speaker 2: And that's when I'm sitting at Audrey's site and I'm
[37:26] Speaker 2: sitting there and I see the house and I'm thinking, oh,
[37:30] Speaker 2: And I phoned and I said to him, has anybody
[37:33] Speaker 2: door knocked? And they went, yes, we've door knocked and spoken.
[37:36] Speaker 2: No one's heard anything. They heard something like something like
[37:38] Speaker 2: a dog or something barking, and I end up I
[37:43] Speaker 2: had an hour spare, so I went over there and
[37:46] Speaker 2: I door knocked, and I said this in the last podcast.
[37:50] Speaker 2: As we found out when we sat down on a
[37:52] Speaker 2: board meeting with all the big department that they didn't
[37:56] Speaker 2: door knock. They put business cards into the screen door.
[38:00] Speaker 2: A young girl has been found murdered or found dead
[38:04] Speaker 2: at a creek, and it's not the first time it's happened.
[38:06] Speaker 1: That's when an assumption is made, and I've saw it
[38:09] Speaker 1: too many times in homicide, when the assumption is made
[38:12] Speaker 1: that it's not suspicious, then everything just falls by the wayside.
[38:17] Speaker 2: So I've heard so much about Gosford, you know, and
[38:21] Speaker 2: like everyone comes up here to retire. They you know,
[38:24] Speaker 2: it's a country town and once again a country town,
[38:27] Speaker 2: not much happens up here. Every reason to even more
[38:31] Speaker 2: look at that as a homicide, because it's not like
[38:34] Speaker 2: it's happening like in Sydney every two seconds, do you
[38:37] Speaker 2: know what I mean? And just the fact that I
[38:40] Speaker 2: went there time and time and time and time again.
[38:44] Speaker 1: Hey guys, it's Gary jubilin here. Want they get more
[38:47] Speaker 1: out of I Catch Killers, then you should head over
[38:50] Speaker 1: to our new video feed on Spotify where you can
[38:53] Speaker 1: watch every episode of I Catch Killers. Just search for
[38:57] Speaker 1: I Catch Killers video in your Spotify and start watching today.
[39:02] Speaker 1: If it was a situation that again without attacking the individuals,
[39:07] Speaker 1: if the police are over worked there and they're avoiding things,
[39:11] Speaker 1: but breaking it down, what efforts and I think, as
[39:16] Speaker 1: Audrey's mum, you're entitled to get these answers sooner rather
[39:20] Speaker 1: than later. What efforts were made to locate him when
[39:23] Speaker 1: he was out breaching his avas prior to him murdering Audrey.
[39:28] Speaker 1: I think that's a reasonable question, and it's not a
[39:30] Speaker 1: cynical question. We're not trying to cause problems for anyone,
[39:33] Speaker 1: but that's an obvious question you, as a mother would
[39:36] Speaker 1: be asking why was he out? What information was put
[39:39] Speaker 1: before the court in January when he was put on
[39:42] Speaker 1: a community corrections order? Was all the information there? And
[39:45] Speaker 1: more importantly, if he started breaching AVOs after that point
[39:50] Speaker 1: in time, what did police do to find him before
[39:54] Speaker 1: he inflicted the damage and took Audrey's Audrey's life. They're
[39:58] Speaker 1: crucial questions that I would like to see answer that
[40:02] Speaker 1: the inquest, and you have asked me time and time
[40:06] Speaker 1: again about what an inquest can do. They're the type
[40:09] Speaker 1: of things can this death? Could this death have been prevented?
[40:13] Speaker 1: And let's just say, and I'm speaking hypothetically here, so
[40:16] Speaker 1: I don't want people to jump on me hypothetically, Let's
[40:19] Speaker 1: just say police didn't do anything to catch him. There's
[40:23] Speaker 1: a failing there. We know about domestic violence and all
[40:27] Speaker 1: sorts of issues there. If police made no efforts to
[40:30] Speaker 1: find him when he was breaching a vos, there's a
[40:33] Speaker 1: failing in the system, and that's a.
[40:36] Speaker 2: Failing to Trevor and I and everyone that loved Audrey.
[40:39] Speaker 2: You know, they've taken They've just and this is the
[40:43] Speaker 2: thing that I wake up every morning when I'm like,
[40:45] Speaker 2: how do they just get to release someone they take?
[40:51] Speaker 2: You know, he should have been behind bars, we know
[40:53] Speaker 2: that release him out on the street. He takes my
[40:57] Speaker 2: daughter's life and that's it. Yeah, that's it, Like, how
[41:03] Speaker 2: is that possible? I understand this stuff going on in
[41:06] Speaker 2: the walls and all over the world, but to actually
[41:11] Speaker 2: treat like every morning I wake up and when I
[41:14] Speaker 2: say I'm alone because it's just so surreal.
[41:18] Speaker 1: Well, yeah, I think as a society we've got the
[41:20] Speaker 1: responsibility to protect vulnerable people and a young girl walking home.
[41:26] Speaker 1: As a society we should be I'm just blown away.
[41:30] Speaker 2: That's why I can't understand. I'm like, where is the
[41:33] Speaker 2: support here, Like the support from this you know, the
[41:36] Speaker 2: community and the people that love you know, but the
[41:39] Speaker 2: system nothing.
[41:40] Speaker 1: Well, if the system was supporting you, like twelve months
[41:44] Speaker 1: down the track, where's this inquest? What priority he's been
[41:47] Speaker 1: given to the inquest? Have you been updated when it's
[41:50] Speaker 1: likely to come ahead? Have the police told you what
[41:53] Speaker 1: they've done, Because clearly, and I think we can say
[41:56] Speaker 1: this clearly, there were some shortcomings in the initial investigation.
[42:00] Speaker 1: It's only speculation, that's only a query what was done
[42:03] Speaker 1: to locate him before he murdered Audrey. But what I
[42:08] Speaker 1: will say is that police should have very detailed records
[42:11] Speaker 1: on what was actually done to recover him, the failings
[42:15] Speaker 1: at the start of the investigation. What's the problem with
[42:19] Speaker 1: police actually sitting down and going through all this with you.
[42:22] Speaker 1: I don't see how that. I don't see how that
[42:24] Speaker 1: impacts on an inquest Garry.
[42:26] Speaker 2: I even received a letter. I received a letter saying
[42:29] Speaker 2: that I needed to pick up Audery's belongings, and I
[42:33] Speaker 2: go to Gosford station and on the letter it said
[42:37] Speaker 2: that if I don't pick it up within the month,
[42:40] Speaker 2: then they'll be thrown out pretty much. And I turn
[42:44] Speaker 2: up at the station and they're like, nobody knows anything
[42:47] Speaker 2: about the letter, nobody knows where the stuff or whatever.
[42:50] Speaker 2: And they were like, oh, we'll get back to you
[42:52] Speaker 2: haven't heard. Like, see, how can they turn around and
[42:56] Speaker 2: just send me a letter to say they've got belongings
[42:59] Speaker 2: off my daughter and that if I don't pick them
[43:02] Speaker 2: up within the month, they'll be smissed. How does that?
[43:06] Speaker 1: Well, you ask me the question, what I think is
[43:10] Speaker 1: clearly lacking here is an acknowledgment of what this case
[43:14] Speaker 1: is about. Correct, that's a standard from an exhibit officer
[43:18] Speaker 1: or someone have responsibility through an exhibit, just a standard
[43:21] Speaker 1: form that goes out.
[43:23] Speaker 2: But really correct, I know, and I know that it's
[43:25] Speaker 2: the case.
[43:26] Speaker 1: Given the circumstances as the history of this, a little
[43:29] Speaker 1: bit more care and consideration.
[43:32] Speaker 2: Correct, that's what I mean. Like, you know, I understand
[43:35] Speaker 2: that's a system that went out, But even when I
[43:36] Speaker 2: went in there there was no oh, we apologize or whatever.
[43:40] Speaker 2: But I will get back to it. And they still
[43:42] Speaker 2: haven't got back to me, do you know what I mean? Like,
[43:45] Speaker 2: that's her phone, her clothing, her shoes.
[43:49] Speaker 1: Has anyone involved in the case been appointed to liaison
[43:53] Speaker 1: officer for you? Someone that you can pick them?
[43:55] Speaker 2: It was originally there was originally yes, I can pick
[43:59] Speaker 2: up and speak to one, but only it's only if
[44:03] Speaker 2: I pick up the phone to him. Now he doesn't
[44:05] Speaker 2: call back to me anymore.
[44:06] Speaker 3: If you pick up the phone.
[44:08] Speaker 1: Then we're speculating here and say, well, is there an
[44:10] Speaker 1: internal investigation into what's happened with Audrey? I'd be interested
[44:16] Speaker 1: in what the what the answer is you've got the
[44:19] Speaker 1: right to ask these questions. And I just want to
[44:22] Speaker 1: clarify here I sound.
[44:23] Speaker 3: Like I come.
[44:24] Speaker 1: You know, I'm cranky at the police. I love policing.
[44:28] Speaker 1: It's an important job and there's great people in there,
[44:31] Speaker 1: and I'm sure there is great people involved in everything's to.
[44:35] Speaker 3: Do with Audrey.
[44:36] Speaker 1: But if mistakes were made and when someone's life has
[44:39] Speaker 1: been taken, there needs to be accountability.
[44:42] Speaker 2: Absolutely, And this is what I keep saying. It's not
[44:46] Speaker 2: it's probably not the people that are on the surface.
[44:50] Speaker 2: It's it's probably if I'm a higher power, I don't know.
[44:53] Speaker 2: But for me, I'm not pointing the finger at this
[44:57] Speaker 2: stage at anyone. I'm just saying what wasn't done is
[45:01] Speaker 2: not acceptable.
[45:03] Speaker 1: I think the best way forward for you is you
[45:08] Speaker 1: want answers, specific answers to specific questions. Then why was
[45:14] Speaker 1: this treated as a misadventure before it was determined to
[45:19] Speaker 1: be a homicide. What accountability has there been for the
[45:25] Speaker 1: people that made the wrong assessment from the start and
[45:28] Speaker 1: treated as a misadventure? Has there been the internal investigation?
[45:32] Speaker 1: Have pray the coals changed? I think you look at
[45:34] Speaker 1: that and I'd be very inquisitive as to what was
[45:39] Speaker 1: done in the lead up to Audrey's murder to locate
[45:43] Speaker 1: him when he was in breach of his AVOs, because
[45:46] Speaker 1: I think that is.
[45:47] Speaker 2: Where that is where I need to know you.
[45:49] Speaker 1: That's if the system has broken down. That's where it's
[45:51] Speaker 1: broken down big time, and the consequences are devastating in
[45:55] Speaker 1: that Audrey's lost her life. That if mistakes were made
[45:59] Speaker 1: there after she was murdered, if mistakes were made in
[46:04] Speaker 1: the wrong assessment, that's concerning.
[46:06] Speaker 2: Can I ask you another question too, So he from
[46:10] Speaker 2: what I've been told, he actually confessed to what he
[46:14] Speaker 2: had done. I mean, obviously he's told a couple of people.
[46:20] Speaker 3: Yep.
[46:21] Speaker 2: Why aren't those people made accountable?
[46:23] Speaker 1: Well, there's certain defenses that would fit into that category.
[46:27] Speaker 1: I can't comment one way or the other. What I
[46:29] Speaker 1: can say is there is provisions four offenses aiding a
[46:33] Speaker 1: betting after a murder, different offenses that could fit into
[46:37] Speaker 1: that category. But it would be a breakdown of the details,
[46:40] Speaker 1: the specific details exactly what was said, what the person
[46:43] Speaker 1: did with the information, what was acting on the person's mind,
[46:47] Speaker 1: and did that person pass the information onto police when
[46:50] Speaker 1: spoken to? So it wasn't hindering an investigation. But look,
[46:54] Speaker 1: these are all the questions that need to be asked.
[46:57] Speaker 1: And I know you've been speaking to your solicitor and
[47:02] Speaker 1: letters to the coroner, and I get frustrated with police
[47:06] Speaker 1: hiding behind And I say this hiding behind it before
[47:10] Speaker 1: a coroner's inquest because the coroner's inquest can drag on
[47:13] Speaker 1: for years, as I've seen in many many matters.
[47:16] Speaker 2: How do I get that brought forward? How can I
[47:19] Speaker 2: do that? Like, how do I do that?
[47:21] Speaker 1: Well, again, I said, I'd give you honest advice. I
[47:24] Speaker 1: think I would be writing, writing to the police and saying,
[47:29] Speaker 1: what's happening with the inquest? Can you give us a date?
[47:31] Speaker 1: Has there been inquiries into how Audrey's initial investigations treaty
[47:38] Speaker 1: as a misadventure? It wasn't investigation, it's just written off.
[47:42] Speaker 1: They could come back and say, okay, we've got to
[47:45] Speaker 1: wait till, wait till the inquest. Well, then you push
[47:47] Speaker 1: up on wh when's the inquest and what efforts were
[47:51] Speaker 1: made to locate him before Audrey's murder?
[47:55] Speaker 3: And that's I.
[47:56] Speaker 1: Think that there. There, they're the questions. And you can
[47:59] Speaker 1: also reach out to the Coroner's Court and make contact
[48:03] Speaker 1: with them and say, well, what's the parameters of the
[48:05] Speaker 1: inquest going to be when's it likely to be held?
[48:08] Speaker 1: Just to give you some peace of mind, because I know,
[48:12] Speaker 1: and when you reached out and spoke to me again
[48:16] Speaker 1: and saying that that's twelve months since Audrey was murdered,
[48:20] Speaker 1: and yeah, I got the sense of you just on
[48:23] Speaker 1: a spinning wheel, just running around.
[48:25] Speaker 2: And even when I spoke to the coroners, when we
[48:28] Speaker 2: sat down with the coroner's.
[48:31] Speaker 3: Counsel.
[48:32] Speaker 2: Yeah, and I said to me, how you're telling me
[48:36] Speaker 2: this is a couple of years process. They said, two years,
[48:39] Speaker 2: and it's been a year now being told two years again.
[48:42] Speaker 3: So you've just lost a year in that. Ye, another
[48:45] Speaker 3: year and now.
[48:45] Speaker 2: There's another two years. They're saying, this is just from
[48:49] Speaker 2: the solicitors that I've spoken to. And then I sat
[48:53] Speaker 2: there and I went, but how did the Bondi situation
[48:56] Speaker 2: get done within twelve months?
[48:58] Speaker 3: Good question?
[48:59] Speaker 2: You know, like bond I was done within twelve months?
[49:02] Speaker 2: You know, how did that happen?
[49:04] Speaker 1: And that they would say, well, the magnitude of what
[49:08] Speaker 1: happened at Bondai and we need to make sure that
[49:10] Speaker 1: things are in place so that doesn't happen again. What
[49:13] Speaker 1: I'm saying to you, And this is the argument that
[49:16] Speaker 1: should be put forward. There's another person in the country
[49:20] Speaker 1: that hasn't been shocked by the amount of domestic related violence. Now,
[49:25] Speaker 1: make it clear that the person that murdered Audrey, they
[49:28] Speaker 1: weren't in a domestic relationship. But there is a time
[49:31] Speaker 1: with domestic violence in that he was out on the
[49:33] Speaker 1: community corrections order because of domestic violence and was breaching
[49:37] Speaker 1: domestic violence. And my question is why wasn't this person
[49:41] Speaker 1: in custody after those breaches? And if the police can't
[49:45] Speaker 1: find him, they can't find him, But what inquiries were
[49:48] Speaker 1: done or what things were done to locate him when
[49:52] Speaker 1: he was out committing these offenses.
[49:55] Speaker 2: I mean, he got hold of his son, so you
[49:58] Speaker 2: know that there was ways that they must have been
[50:00] Speaker 2: able to get in contact with him. Do you know
[50:02] Speaker 2: what I mean?
[50:02] Speaker 1: Well, if he had the phone, who's breaching on the phone,
[50:06] Speaker 1: they could have found him. I'm certain of that. So
[50:09] Speaker 1: these are the questions that you want to answered.
[50:11] Speaker 3: Now.
[50:12] Speaker 1: My argument if people say, Okay, well it's going to
[50:14] Speaker 1: take two years, my argument would be, well, hold that
[50:18] Speaker 1: if it takes two years, we've learned nothing. And I
[50:21] Speaker 1: respect the role of the coroner, and the coroners do
[50:25] Speaker 1: great work and do hand down some very detailed findings.
[50:28] Speaker 1: Respect the findings of the coroner, but given the fact
[50:32] Speaker 1: that there's some major potentially because we don't know until
[50:35] Speaker 1: all the facts and the balance everything I say out here,
[50:38] Speaker 1: until all the information comes in, I'm getting it from
[50:41] Speaker 1: your side of things. We haven't heard from the police.
[50:44] Speaker 1: We tried to get it from the police. But the
[50:47] Speaker 1: coroner can look at all those situations and address them
[50:51] Speaker 1: now delaying that. You know, they say two years, You'll
[50:55] Speaker 1: be lucky if it's three years, because you've already been
[50:57] Speaker 1: shown how it can just drag on and drag on.
[51:00] Speaker 1: Maybe we need to address this before the inquest and
[51:04] Speaker 1: the police are in the position where they can address it.
[51:07] Speaker 1: If there were failings done, they should address it. And
[51:09] Speaker 1: I think you're entitled as a mother of a murdered
[51:13] Speaker 1: nineteen year old girl, to be told that if police
[51:15] Speaker 1: have done anything to make sure this type of thing
[51:17] Speaker 1: doesn't happen again, Because if there were failings and they
[51:21] Speaker 1: haven't been addressed, it doesn't give anyone any confidence, does it.
[51:24] Speaker 2: No, God, No, and again on that side of it,
[51:27] Speaker 2: That's what I'm saying, Like in regard to you know,
[51:30] Speaker 2: I know that I have got a massive, a massive
[51:34] Speaker 2: journey a head for some of life. Really, isn't it
[51:38] Speaker 2: as like? But you know, people are saying to me
[51:43] Speaker 2: all the time, you know it's too hard, or you
[51:46] Speaker 2: know you're fighting against the law, you're fighting against this.
[51:48] Speaker 2: But to me, I don't see that. I don't see that.
[51:52] Speaker 2: I just think if I'm going for the bigger picture,
[51:56] Speaker 2: I'm not starting from the little part of it, I'm
[51:58] Speaker 2: going from David One's like everyone that you know, from
[52:01] Speaker 2: the judge that needs to be approached, that the police
[52:04] Speaker 2: system needs to be a place all those need to
[52:07] Speaker 2: be accountable of what has actually happened here, and no
[52:12] Speaker 2: one has. No one's been made accountable. Everyone in life
[52:17] Speaker 2: who makes a mistake, as you know, is made accountable.
[52:20] Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, I'd always say that you investigate a homicide,
[52:26] Speaker 1: you accept the responsibility and the accountability. I have not
[52:29] Speaker 1: got a problem with that, and I'm not being a
[52:31] Speaker 1: hypocrite sitting here. I stood by that my whole career,
[52:35] Speaker 1: and I'll stand by what I did. But I think, okay,
[52:40] Speaker 1: if we look at what we hope to achieve by
[52:42] Speaker 1: coming on the podcast again voicing your opinions and getting
[52:47] Speaker 1: my thoughts on where there's been failings and what we're
[52:51] Speaker 1: looking for. The end result is that these issues, if
[52:56] Speaker 1: they are issues, are addressed sooner rather than later. And
[52:59] Speaker 1: it might their case we can wait for another two years,
[53:02] Speaker 1: because then that's three years. So how many more mistakes
[53:04] Speaker 1: about I mean the.
[53:06] Speaker 2: Fact that he was they had a photo of him
[53:08] Speaker 2: that day and he was out for three weeks? Like,
[53:11] Speaker 2: what did they do there to find you? Like he
[53:14] Speaker 2: was in Saratoga.
[53:16] Speaker 1: Well, they weren't looking for him because they told you
[53:18] Speaker 1: it wasn't suspicious.
[53:19] Speaker 2: That they had a photo of him that morning, Like
[53:22] Speaker 2: this is what you know what I mean like before,
[53:24] Speaker 2: So obviously what they were doing before was nothing, and
[53:27] Speaker 2: what they were doing after was nothing. I mean, it'll
[53:29] Speaker 2: be interesting to see.
[53:31] Speaker 1: A lot of a lot of people in your situation
[53:33] Speaker 1: because you're dealing with all the emotion that comes in
[53:36] Speaker 1: with this, and quite often sit down and speak to
[53:40] Speaker 1: someone and you've got a list of questions in your head.
[53:42] Speaker 1: You sit down and you want answers, and you walk
[53:44] Speaker 1: away and you're dealing with the emotion and the detail
[53:47] Speaker 1: of the information that's provided back. I think the way
[53:50] Speaker 1: forward for you is put it down in writing and
[53:55] Speaker 1: send it off to the police and done that and
[53:59] Speaker 1: have you been getting written.
[54:00] Speaker 2: Respect so at the in the process. So from day
[54:02] Speaker 2: dot we've got everything, everything written down from right from
[54:06] Speaker 2: the right, from the beginning, from the conversations. Everything has
[54:09] Speaker 2: been documented. I've got a great teamwork of corporate ladies
[54:12] Speaker 2: that have been working with me here, so we've got everything.
[54:16] Speaker 2: We're just in the process of also putting a complaint
[54:19] Speaker 2: into the actual police department. So that's something else that's
[54:23] Speaker 2: I'm going to be putting on. I've got a solicitor
[54:26] Speaker 2: and a barrister that's working on the case at the moment.
[54:30] Speaker 2: But as I said, look, it's still you know, even
[54:33] Speaker 2: when I spoke to them the other day and I
[54:35] Speaker 2: was like, you know, how do we get this moving?
[54:38] Speaker 2: Like I just feel like what am I supposed to
[54:40] Speaker 2: do for two years?
[54:41] Speaker 1: I wish they could understand You're not an adversary, You're
[54:45] Speaker 1: not fighting against them.
[54:46] Speaker 2: You just want I want I want this, I want society.
[54:51] Speaker 2: You know, there's so much ugliness out there, so much
[54:54] Speaker 2: and we all need to come together and go it's
[54:56] Speaker 2: not okay. It's not okay, And I'm not on this
[55:00] Speaker 2: journey alone, that there has to be change. There has
[55:04] Speaker 2: to be changed, and unless everyone gets on board and
[55:08] Speaker 2: supports then we're not going to and our kids and
[55:12] Speaker 2: the younger generation having kids, imagine what it's going to
[55:15] Speaker 2: be like. Every time you turn the telly on. It's
[55:17] Speaker 2: just educate your children. Get back to the old school
[55:21] Speaker 2: you know, manners, and you know, like, and this is
[55:25] Speaker 2: not just about girls, this is boys too, you know,
[55:27] Speaker 2: like boys need to be safe too, as you know,
[55:30] Speaker 2: you know, like it's not about an agenda, it's about anyone,
[55:33] Speaker 2: you know. So and that was Audrey never ever, never, ever,
[55:40] Speaker 2: for a minute ever judged any sex or you know,
[55:44] Speaker 2: anything whatsoever. She was just such a solid young girl
[55:48] Speaker 2: that just was had the world at affair and was thriving.
[55:52] Speaker 1: You know from what you told me, what you've told
[55:55] Speaker 1: me over the past yeah, twelve months or so, that
[55:59] Speaker 1: she is an amazing young girl and she shouldn't be forgotten.
[56:03] Speaker 1: I hope with all your frustrations trying to get answers,
[56:08] Speaker 1: you can put that to a side and grieve and
[56:12] Speaker 1: feel the emotion that you need to feel for the
[56:15] Speaker 1: loss of your daughter too.
[56:16] Speaker 3: That it's one battle.
[56:18] Speaker 1: And you said at the start you find it hard
[56:20] Speaker 1: because you're just focusing on getting answers. You are going
[56:23] Speaker 1: to get answers, and you keep doing what you're doing.
[56:28] Speaker 1: And if people need to be accountable, will make them accountable.
[56:31] Speaker 1: And I think if anyone's trying to fob people off,
[56:35] Speaker 1: and I say this, what I've learned with victims of homicide,
[56:41] Speaker 1: the families, they never give up, never give up.
[56:45] Speaker 3: And it's if.
[56:45] Speaker 1: People are naively thinking of this will go away if
[56:48] Speaker 1: we just do.
[56:50] Speaker 2: And it's also amazing, Gary, like when you talk to people,
[56:52] Speaker 2: you can see straight through them now too, you know
[56:54] Speaker 2: That's what I'm seeing, you know, Like I can see
[56:57] Speaker 2: straight through people, you know. I'm just I can just
[57:01] Speaker 2: see when the lies are there or they're not. You know. Yeah,
[57:04] Speaker 2: It's just it's made me very clear of a lot
[57:09] Speaker 2: of things, you know, and where what I need to do.
[57:12] Speaker 2: And yeah, I just hope I just hope that, you know,
[57:16] Speaker 2: I do hope society sits with me and does fight
[57:19] Speaker 2: with me, because nobody wants to feel like, yeah, I
[57:28] Speaker 2: was only saying to Audrey's father yesterday, Audrey Audrey brought
[57:32] Speaker 2: me a Christmas present, one of her Christmas presents that
[57:35] Speaker 2: she bought for me. She gave me a ticket to
[57:39] Speaker 2: for hours to go to the zoo together. So and
[57:42] Speaker 2: she bought a dad, a go cut and a go cut,
[57:46] Speaker 2: and he was like, oh, it was really strange. She
[57:48] Speaker 2: brought me one ticket. I thought I was going on
[57:49] Speaker 2: my own, and then I didn't realize she bought is
[57:51] Speaker 2: both one and we're both going to go out there.
[57:54] Speaker 2: And that's what she was like, you know. And anyway,
[57:57] Speaker 2: so he's not up to doing any of the social
[58:02] Speaker 2: media or the walks. He just needs to deal with
[58:05] Speaker 2: it his way, and I respect that. But I did
[58:08] Speaker 2: say to him, so he didn't come on Sunday, and
[58:10] Speaker 2: I did say to him, look, it's twelve months yesterday.
[58:15] Speaker 2: Audrey gave me a zoo ticket. Would you spend the
[58:17] Speaker 2: day with me? Can we go to the zoo? And
[58:19] Speaker 2: he said of course. So we went to the zoo
[58:23] Speaker 2: and unfortunately they were all asleep, so we didn't get
[58:26] Speaker 2: to see anything. But it was really sweet because we
[58:29] Speaker 2: get to the gate and I'd actually lost the ticket
[58:31] Speaker 2: that Audrey gave me with all the move and moving
[58:33] Speaker 2: and just he's lost his too, And we get to
[58:36] Speaker 2: the gate and there's these two gentlemen, one gentleman and
[58:42] Speaker 2: a lady that they were smiling at me as I
[58:46] Speaker 2: walked past, and because so many people recognize me now,
[58:50] Speaker 2: I wasn't sure if they knew my story. And I
[58:53] Speaker 2: smile and hi, and I was looking for Trevor and
[58:56] Speaker 2: as I turned around, they both walked up to me
[58:59] Speaker 2: and went, are you going into the zoo? And I
[59:01] Speaker 2: said yes, and they said have you bought a ticket?
[59:03] Speaker 2: And I said, oh, not as hip, We're just about
[59:05] Speaker 2: to go and buy one. And he said, well, I've
[59:08] Speaker 2: got VIPs. I would love to give you two three tickets.
[59:12] Speaker 2: And Trevor and I just looked at each other and
[59:14] Speaker 2: got tears in our eyes and we're just like, oh,
[59:16] Speaker 2: you have no idea why we're here today, and so
[59:19] Speaker 2: we kind of gave him a sure a little bit,
[59:21] Speaker 2: but just said look Google and they were just like,
[59:24] Speaker 2: you know, another two that now wanted to come on
[59:26] Speaker 2: our journey and have locked on, you know, And it
[59:29] Speaker 2: was just so beautiful, do you know what I mean?
[59:31] Speaker 2: Like how everyone just keeps giving And that's what makes
[59:36] Speaker 2: me keep fighting because the support, the support's been amazing.
[59:42] Speaker 1: Well, I know you will keep fighting.
[59:46] Speaker 3: I get that sense.
[59:47] Speaker 1: We've spoken enough and I know well enough now and
[59:51] Speaker 1: any way that I can help in anyway, and we'll
[59:55] Speaker 1: tell the story and we support you, and we might
[59:59] Speaker 1: be chatting him again down the track.
[1:00:02] Speaker 2: Get done, hopefully when we get get just to get
[1:00:04] Speaker 2: some answers, yeah, and get some more answers, because as
[1:00:07] Speaker 2: I said, look, you know, I've got nothing else. It's
[1:00:11] Speaker 2: a fight for now. I'm numb, like I just it's
[1:00:14] Speaker 2: just as I said to Trevor yesterday, We're talking about stuff,
[1:00:17] Speaker 2: and I just said, it's just hollow, Like life's just hollow.
[1:00:20] Speaker 2: He said, I feel exactly the same. You're like there's
[1:00:22] Speaker 2: just no emotions, there's no feelings, there's no joy, there's
[1:00:25] Speaker 2: no Yeah.
[1:00:26] Speaker 3: So well, I think you're amazing from what you're doing.
[1:00:31] Speaker 3: So hanging.
[1:00:32] Speaker 2: She's worth every bit of it.
[1:00:33] Speaker 1: Yeah, thanks for that, Thank you, Thank you Carrier again

Shows are listed from Apple Podcasts' charts and directory, and Podcast Index where it is used. Every show and episode belongs to its publisher and plays from the publisher's own feed; this site hosts none of them.