# Undercover cop with a death wish: Todd Maguire Pt.1

An episode of [I Catch Killers with Gary Jubelin](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1506667049), 15 Aug 2026, 54 min.

Audio: https://p.podderapp.com/2544644999/traffic.omny.fm/d/clips/2fb3740d-3436-44af-8cc0-a91900716aa5/5bc8c2ed-b718-4f44-beb3-ac2a005246cc/cc3cdd78-426d-457c-8d49-b4a7001c963e/audio.mp3?utm_source=Podcast&in_playlist=786928c3-10c1-4cef-a7bf-ac2a005246d0

At just 25 years of age, Queensland police officer Todd Maguire woke up to discover the love of his life had taken her own life. Shattered and searching for a way to escape the pain, Todd threw himself into the dangerous world of undercover policing, and became someone else entirely. Enter Donny: reckless, fearless, and fully immersed in a criminal underworld of drugs, violence, and volatility, where one wrong word or one wrong look could get you killed. In this episode of I Catch Killers, Gary Jubelin sits down with Todd to unpack a story of profound loss, reinvention, and survival. Todd opens up about the moment he found his partner's body, the brutal reality of life undercover, and how deeply he lost himself in his alter ego. Subscribe to our new Youtube channel. Follow I Catch Killers: Instagram: @icatchkillers Tiktok: @icatchkillerspodcast Facebook: @icatchkillers See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

## Transcript

[0:01] Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives
[0:05] Speaker 1: detective sy aside of life. The average person has never
[0:08] Speaker 1: exposed her I spent thirty four years as a cop.
[0:11] Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.
[0:14] Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a
[0:16] Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,
[0:20] Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.
[0:23] Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories
[0:26] Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw
[0:28] Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talked to. Some
[0:31] Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because
[0:34] Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.
[0:38] Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.
[0:46] Speaker 1: At just twenty five years of age, Queensland Police officer
[0:49] Speaker 1: Todd Maguire got out of bed to find the love
[0:52] Speaker 1: of his life had taken her own life. To outrun
[0:55] Speaker 1: his grief, Todd threw himself into the world of undercover
[0:58] Speaker 1: policing and became Donnie. Was reckless, dangerous, and immersed in
[1:03] Speaker 1: the world of drugs and violence, where one wrong word
[1:07] Speaker 1: or one wrong look could get you killed. Take a listen.
[1:12] Speaker 1: Todd Maguire, Welcome to I Catch Killers. Thank you Gery,
[1:15] Speaker 1: thank you for I'm glad I've got your Catch Killers.
[1:19] Speaker 1: But having read your book, Donnie the Undercover Cop with
[1:23] Speaker 1: a Death Wish, I'm surprised you're still alive.
[1:26] Speaker 2: Yes, yes, well that's what my son said to me
[1:28] Speaker 2: as well, like you.
[1:31] Speaker 1: Well, yeah, if you died, he's not here. You went
[1:35] Speaker 1: to some dark places. There were some dark, dark times
[1:38] Speaker 1: in your life, and we'll talk about it. But to
[1:41] Speaker 1: turn it around is a big thing too, because honestly,
[1:45] Speaker 1: I was reading the book and I'm thinking, you know,
[1:47] Speaker 1: sort of a third of the way through, I'm going
[1:49] Speaker 1: to have to speak to some blokes that know you
[1:51] Speaker 1: to see how you're going, because I thought you might
[1:54] Speaker 1: be a clusterfuck by the end of it. But you
[1:56] Speaker 1: spent a long time in the police after after your
[1:59] Speaker 1: time in undercover, so you managed to turn yourself around.
[2:04] Speaker 2: Well, I think I did a lot of people may
[2:06] Speaker 2: disagree with that. It's certainly been a bumpy rade along
[2:09] Speaker 2: the way, but I've always maintained to keep going forward.
[2:12] Speaker 1: Well, you you have a personal tragedy in your life,
[2:16] Speaker 1: and that's to put it in the context. By the
[2:19] Speaker 1: time you went into UC work, you almost had the
[2:23] Speaker 1: attitudes and give us stuff like as in, well, if
[2:26] Speaker 1: something happens to me, it'll take the pain away exactly,
[2:29] Speaker 1: which is pretty scary, but I would imagine that's a
[2:32] Speaker 1: superpower also in the work that you were doing as
[2:34] Speaker 1: an undercover.
[2:36] Speaker 2: And I think that's where you know, I wasn't going
[2:39] Speaker 2: in there to you know, get all your words and
[2:41] Speaker 2: the prizes and you know, get some fellow that they
[2:44] Speaker 2: hadn't gotten years and you know, world, Undonny Weld Undonning
[2:47] Speaker 2: is like, that's not what I'm here for. I don't care.
[2:50] Speaker 2: I just wanted to find a place where I could
[2:52] Speaker 2: really escape.
[2:53] Speaker 1: And when you talk Donnie, that's your undercover name or
[2:56] Speaker 1: one of your undercovered that they gave me first one.
[2:59] Speaker 1: And my reading of it in the book is that
[3:03] Speaker 1: you were using Donnie to escape from Todd exactly.
[3:06] Speaker 2: Johnny became the old egg.
[3:08] Speaker 1: Todd's life had gone the ship and there was a
[3:10] Speaker 1: lot of pain there and just jump in the Donnie
[3:12] Speaker 1: and all the pain gos and you focus on that.
[3:16] Speaker 2: Yeah, I did, And you know I focused on that
[3:18] Speaker 2: a lot at the time, thinking this is what I need.
[3:20] Speaker 2: I need to escape I'm not remembering what's happening, pushing
[3:24] Speaker 2: it down, pushing it down, pushing it down. You finished
[3:26] Speaker 2: undercover work, same thing, you get straight into detective work
[3:29] Speaker 2: and as you know, bang, you just don't have a
[3:31] Speaker 2: chance to think.
[3:32] Speaker 1: Let's talk a little bit about your early life and
[3:35] Speaker 1: why did you join the cops? Where'd you grow up
[3:37] Speaker 1: and what inspired you to join the cops? And I
[3:40] Speaker 1: want you to tell the story about what was the
[3:42] Speaker 1: island that you were working on, because I think that
[3:44] Speaker 1: was dunk. Yeah, I want you to tell that story.
[3:49] Speaker 2: Yes, I was pretty lucky. Grew up in an north
[3:52] Speaker 2: side of Brisbane, which back in those sort of days
[3:56] Speaker 2: you only ten or fifteen comments from the center. But
[3:59] Speaker 2: that was fairly rural. And I just went only weekends
[4:03] Speaker 2: on me Pushy's gone around, gone around, you know, all
[4:06] Speaker 2: the hills and stuff like that, and just playing sport,
[4:09] Speaker 2: heaps of sport as well. Great family, as I said earlier,
[4:13] Speaker 2: And and I think I went to school on the
[4:17] Speaker 2: north side of Brisbane, Padua College, and that was really
[4:19] Speaker 2: big at footye, And we had a really good time
[4:21] Speaker 2: still mates with Blakes I went to school with, and
[4:24] Speaker 2: I just had a really good culture there and I
[4:27] Speaker 2: think the way that that was sort of set up
[4:30] Speaker 2: for me as well was being around. It's sort of
[4:34] Speaker 2: like a bit of a cocoon, really like, because you
[4:36] Speaker 2: want to do that as a parent, you want to
[4:38] Speaker 2: put your kid into the best sort of supportive nature.
[4:41] Speaker 2: But yeah, what I found out later when there was adversity,
[4:43] Speaker 2: I didn't know how to deal with it because I
[4:45] Speaker 2: had not effect I'd been worried about it. Hadn't had
[4:47] Speaker 2: it happened.
[4:48] Speaker 1: Yeah, Okay, that makes sense. Hadn't had that resilience built
[4:51] Speaker 1: up in you? Yeah at that stage because you had
[4:53] Speaker 1: no setbacks. So, yeah, you grew up around there. Rugby
[4:58] Speaker 1: league was a big, big thing for you and playing
[5:02] Speaker 1: team sports work wise. Did you have any ambitions you
[5:05] Speaker 1: were looking at, Well, you were looking at being a
[5:08] Speaker 1: professional rugby league player, but I think you stuffed that
[5:11] Speaker 1: up with a trip to Sydney pretty quick.
[5:14] Speaker 2: Yeah.
[5:16] Speaker 1: If you're embarrassed to tell story, I'll tell it for you.
[5:20] Speaker 1: You come down here trialing for an nrl L team,
[5:24] Speaker 1: and you're you're a teenager, and you and your mate
[5:27] Speaker 1: decided it would be a good idea to go to
[5:30] Speaker 1: King's Cross for the night before the before the trials
[5:34] Speaker 1: how did you perform at the trials?
[5:36] Speaker 2: Well, I thought I played well, but I thought I
[5:41] Speaker 2: must have been running the wrong way or playing the
[5:43] Speaker 2: ball in the wrong direction or something. I wasn't good.
[5:46] Speaker 2: But as I say, you know, I could have been.
[5:49] Speaker 2: I could have had the best preparation of the world
[5:51] Speaker 2: and it still wouldn't have Mainly, yeah.
[5:53] Speaker 1: Yeah, So I would describe you as an average type fellow,
[5:58] Speaker 1: a bit loose, not not knowing what direction your life
[6:01] Speaker 1: would go in. And then you came up with the
[6:04] Speaker 1: idea that working on Dunk Island might be the game.
[6:08] Speaker 1: You were trying to sort of break away and find yourself.
[6:11] Speaker 1: Tell us what happened there.
[6:12] Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I had a couple of injuries and footy,
[6:13] Speaker 2: so I thought it'd be a good time for me
[6:15] Speaker 2: to can't branch out. There was always the lure of
[6:17] Speaker 2: the islands and all that sort of stuff back in
[6:18] Speaker 2: the nineties, and I'd been working in some nightclubs and
[6:22] Speaker 2: pubs and restaurants in Brisbane. I mean, we'll go up
[6:25] Speaker 2: and do that. So yeah, it was fun. It really
[6:29] Speaker 2: was a lot of fun. It was good for a
[6:32] Speaker 2: young fella, and yeah, you know, like every work, it's
[6:37] Speaker 2: time to move on and well the general manager ask
[6:40] Speaker 2: me to move on in that there.
[6:41] Speaker 1: Were well it's in the book, so I'll say there
[6:44] Speaker 1: was a slight indiscretion and there's no judgment here, but
[6:47] Speaker 1: you were with a lady that happened to be the
[6:50] Speaker 1: girlfriend of the band that was on the island, and
[6:54] Speaker 1: as a result of that situation, the band quit and
[6:58] Speaker 1: you got fired.
[6:59] Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, very understandable as well. All I can say
[7:04] Speaker 2: is I laid myself bare in the book and I
[7:08] Speaker 2: heard everything. All the good things are bad things, silly things.
[7:11] Speaker 1: Well, it's better to get it out there, I think. Then,
[7:14] Speaker 1: sitting on a secret the type of life that you're living,
[7:18] Speaker 1: you were a bit directionless, I think, and you're enjoying
[7:21] Speaker 1: the partying and having the good times. That would have helped,
[7:25] Speaker 1: I dare say when you did go into undercover work,
[7:29] Speaker 1: being able to mix in that environment and be a
[7:31] Speaker 1: bit loose, because you need to be loose and be
[7:33] Speaker 1: able to get on with people.
[7:34] Speaker 2: Yeah, the confidence of you know, holding a group of
[7:38] Speaker 2: people talking, being that certain person when you're buying a
[7:42] Speaker 2: bar and you're sort of controlling a bar, you've got
[7:44] Speaker 2: the same thing.
[7:45] Speaker 1: Yeah, when did you discover you wanted to be a cop.
[7:49] Speaker 2: Yeah. So after I'd sort of left dunklelan Port Douglas,
[7:53] Speaker 2: I went up there for a bit and then move
[7:55] Speaker 2: back down to Santa Cave down the Gold Coast, and
[7:58] Speaker 2: you know, I got to a metal management and I thought, oh,
[8:00] Speaker 2: here we go. But that took about eighty ninety hours
[8:03] Speaker 2: a week. And I wanted to start playing footy again. Yeah,
[8:06] Speaker 2: so that was my only focus. I didn't care about work. Then.
[8:08] Speaker 2: It was like footy, footy, footy. So I started playing
[8:11] Speaker 2: footy on the Goldcase and got sort of made it
[8:13] Speaker 2: back up to a grade and that was pretty good.
[8:15] Speaker 2: And I was at the park with Tavern one day
[8:18] Speaker 2: with a mate who was in the cops and he
[8:21] Speaker 2: sort of said, I was winging about you know, as
[8:23] Speaker 2: he wings about your work mate. I started three this morning,
[8:26] Speaker 2: a group came in. We did this, and do this.
[8:29] Speaker 2: Didn't finish till like six, and my I was hanging out.
[8:32] Speaker 2: Now I've got to be back at two in the morning.
[8:33] Speaker 2: And it was just non stopping and I wasn't get
[8:36] Speaker 2: paid well at all, not hospitality, and and he gets,
[8:39] Speaker 2: what do you doin the cops way? Mate? Never thought
[8:42] Speaker 2: of it in my life, No, I don't like cops.
[8:46] Speaker 2: I think I said that at the time, but he goes,
[8:48] Speaker 2: you know this play you know me, you know, oh yeah,
[8:50] Speaker 2: they're all fairly decent fellows. Yeah, it's only blokes like arts. Went,
[8:54] Speaker 2: that's all right. And we'd played footy, you know that
[8:57] Speaker 2: went really I mean, and then I actually he said
[9:01] Speaker 2: to me so many times, go and do it, do it?
[9:03] Speaker 2: And I said, okay, if I say yes, well you
[9:06] Speaker 2: shut up one of those ones. Yeah, and I do
[9:08] Speaker 2: your deal. If I get in, I get in. If
[9:11] Speaker 2: I don't get in, I'm not a plant again. And
[9:13] Speaker 2: I got in.
[9:14] Speaker 1: And that your life started to take a different direction
[9:17] Speaker 1: from there. Where were you first? Where were you first stationed? That?
[9:21] Speaker 2: It was on the Gold Coast?
[9:23] Speaker 1: And what years are we talking? This was ninety seven, okay,
[9:27] Speaker 1: so that would have been some wild times.
[9:28] Speaker 2: It was. Yeah, yeah, it was exactly what I wanted.
[9:31] Speaker 1: You enjoyed the work, Yeah, I loved it, absolutely loved it.
[9:33] Speaker 2: My very first shift was a Friday night starting at
[9:36] Speaker 2: midnight and service paradise.
[9:37] Speaker 1: How did you How did you find that?
[9:40] Speaker 2: Initially I was worried because not like the holes you
[9:44] Speaker 2: have there, it was an old leather one that he
[9:45] Speaker 2: didn't even the clip would hardly even stay in. It
[9:48] Speaker 2: would always fall out, and I wasn't used to wearing that,
[9:52] Speaker 2: and it felt like I kept on looking, it's gone,
[9:54] Speaker 2: it's gone. I think it's gone. Especially I reckon. We've
[9:58] Speaker 2: got in about five or six fights at night, and
[10:01] Speaker 2: each one of them, I said, that's that's gonna go.
[10:03] Speaker 2: That's gone, that's gone.
[10:04] Speaker 1: It's a strange thing, isn't it. The struggling around with
[10:07] Speaker 1: a gun strapped to the side of the leg.
[10:10] Speaker 2: Especially when you're not used to it. Yeah, you're worried
[10:13] Speaker 2: about so many other things, and there's just people everywhere
[10:15] Speaker 2: knocking into you, and then you're runing around the floor,
[10:18] Speaker 2: you know, fighting someone.
[10:20] Speaker 1: You've met the lady that you so for the first
[10:24] Speaker 1: couple of years, young cop. I would imagine you're having
[10:28] Speaker 1: a good time, young cop, living on the on the
[10:31] Speaker 1: Gold Coast and having a circle of friends that won
[10:34] Speaker 1: the party with you after after working you you met
[10:38] Speaker 1: a lady Karen.
[10:39] Speaker 2: Yeah, I died. Yeah, I wasn't sort of really looking
[10:41] Speaker 2: for anyone, and yeah, yeah, I was blown away when
[10:47] Speaker 2: when I saw her at first at the at the
[10:48] Speaker 2: Caxino one night and I asked him out of mine?
[10:51] Speaker 2: What's what's going on over here? Just broke up with
[10:54] Speaker 2: a harby about six months ago. Well it looks pretty
[10:58] Speaker 2: good to me. So I gave it a go and
[11:01] Speaker 2: it was a bit clumsy, you know, and then I
[11:04] Speaker 2: had to work on it for about, I reckon three months.
[11:07] Speaker 2: So I thought I'd use a uniform and see how
[11:09] Speaker 2: that works. And it did. So I went around to
[11:11] Speaker 2: work every now and it just works.
[11:13] Speaker 1: Just thought that Wayanka just came into my head.
[11:16] Speaker 2: But on second around a job, you know, and someone
[11:21] Speaker 2: had said, you know that worked, and give it a go. Yeah,
[11:23] Speaker 2: and it did.
[11:24] Speaker 1: So you got in the relationship with her, and she
[11:28] Speaker 1: had a child from her marriage, and so you went
[11:31] Speaker 1: from the reckless young fella living on the barracks to
[11:36] Speaker 1: basically living with her and having fatherly do this. How
[11:39] Speaker 1: did you find that?
[11:40] Speaker 2: I really struggled. I just didn't know how to do it, yep.
[11:45] Speaker 2: But also I had the back of my mind, arm, Yeah,
[11:49] Speaker 2: you're twenty five, you know, come on time the set
[11:51] Speaker 2: stargright up, mate, So I thought, yeah, I better do that. Yeah,
[11:55] Speaker 2: So I really put my head down and went, yeah,
[11:57] Speaker 2: I do like this. I like this, you know. I
[11:59] Speaker 2: started of living that sort of life and dropping him
[12:02] Speaker 2: to school, picking him up or kindergarten, all that sort
[12:04] Speaker 2: of stuff, and it was all looking good.
[12:07] Speaker 1: It gives you some some purpose, doesn't it, sense of
[12:10] Speaker 1: responsibility and that you need to grow up. Yes, yeah, basically.
[12:15] Speaker 2: I was twenty five, she was thirty one. Yeah, you know,
[12:17] Speaker 2: she'd be married with a kid, and to me she
[12:20] Speaker 2: was like a totally next generation and how did I
[12:23] Speaker 2: get her?
[12:24] Speaker 1: You know, it will be painful talking about this. There's
[12:28] Speaker 1: reference in your book with all the good times that
[12:30] Speaker 1: you had with her and how important Karen was in
[12:33] Speaker 1: your life and her child. But when we talk the
[12:38] Speaker 1: personal tragedy, you're comfortable talking about what happened.
[12:42] Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely. Yeah. For years I never see anything. So
[12:46] Speaker 2: I'm trying to catch up with it now.
[12:47] Speaker 1: Okay, if you can tell the listeners what's happened.
[12:51] Speaker 2: It was New Year's Eve being two thousand, ye so
[12:55] Speaker 2: y two k wheneveryone remembers what the Millenniam.
[12:58] Speaker 1: Was, the world was going to be.
[12:58] Speaker 2: We're supposed to be in the next day. I think
[13:00] Speaker 2: we've heard this before every and so there was a
[13:04] Speaker 2: little bit, you know, people were talking about it. There
[13:06] Speaker 2: was a little bit of buzz in the air, and
[13:08] Speaker 2: I remember that New Year's just listening to the holiday makers.
[13:14] Speaker 2: I don't think i've heard noise like it since. I
[13:17] Speaker 2: think people were really partying like it was the last
[13:20] Speaker 2: night on Earth. So me and a few other Blake
[13:23] Speaker 2: Coppers were boyfriend girlfriend with the other girl boys and girls,
[13:28] Speaker 2: and so the men and the women we were going
[13:31] Speaker 2: to work at ten all the way were going out,
[13:33] Speaker 2: having to drink. We had to go to work. So
[13:36] Speaker 2: we sort of had a dinner first and then we'd
[13:38] Speaker 2: drop the girls over and then we'll go to work.
[13:40] Speaker 2: So anyway, we're sitting around having dinner and I remember
[13:44] Speaker 2: they will knock your sixty one tens or thirty one
[13:47] Speaker 2: tens whatever if you didn't do the enter and Star,
[13:52] Speaker 2: you didn't like it or something. So it sounded like
[13:54] Speaker 2: I just did a bit of a pocket tile and
[13:55] Speaker 2: I thought, oh, I bet a gun clear that and
[13:57] Speaker 2: fix it. And I had six six six on it,
[13:59] Speaker 2: and I went to these people, Yeah, it looks like
[14:02] Speaker 2: the world is going to be end. I just got
[14:04] Speaker 2: a message. Yeah, just been a joker and ever I laughed.
[14:07] Speaker 2: It was good there. So anyway, the girls went out,
[14:10] Speaker 2: you know, it was it was a busy night, you know,
[14:12] Speaker 2: lots of drunks, lots of fights. The other night went
[14:14] Speaker 2: pretty quick. She was having a great night. She was
[14:17] Speaker 2: keeping keeping sort of me abreast of what was going on.
[14:22] Speaker 2: I'd found out earlier, which I wasn't happy about, that
[14:24] Speaker 2: she had half an ecstasy pill, right, and I was
[14:28] Speaker 2: pretty sure that she hadn't had one before. So it
[14:30] Speaker 2: was a little gay. So I wanted to keep him,
[14:32] Speaker 2: you know, I wanted to keep in contact with her
[14:34] Speaker 2: to make sure she was fine. And she was great
[14:36] Speaker 2: all the night through no fights, no arguments, no nothing.
[14:41] Speaker 2: I picked her up at five point thirty. She's still great.
[14:45] Speaker 2: One of her friends was left there, so I dropped.
[14:47] Speaker 2: We dropped her home on the way home, and then
[14:50] Speaker 2: went home back after Madrabar, which is almost like, yeah,
[14:54] Speaker 2: hint Lands, sort of across the other side of the
[14:55] Speaker 2: Bruce Highway. Yeah, So we said, I sat back, had
[14:59] Speaker 2: a bit of a cough food, a cup of tea,
[15:01] Speaker 2: and we thought better get to bed because I had
[15:04] Speaker 2: to work at four o'clock this afternoon, because it was
[15:07] Speaker 2: a quick shift back, you know, just sort of get
[15:09] Speaker 2: back into it. So when that happened, I said, I
[15:12] Speaker 2: can't my eye was hanging out. I really need to
[15:14] Speaker 2: get some sleep. She's gone to bed. Everything fine. But
[15:17] Speaker 2: I woke up about an hour tree later and I
[15:20] Speaker 2: heard the door and she was at the door with someone,
[15:23] Speaker 2: and it was her ex husband bringing the young fellow over.
[15:27] Speaker 2: And she's come back in and she was a little
[15:30] Speaker 2: bit annoyed with herself. I said, what's wrong, and she said,
[15:35] Speaker 2: I forgot to get a young fellow today. I really did.
[15:38] Speaker 2: I went, oh, yeah, I feel so bad that happens.
[15:44] Speaker 2: She was crying and she was I've been a bad
[15:46] Speaker 2: mum and all that sort of stuff, and I go, no,
[15:48] Speaker 2: you're not a bad mum. You're a good mum. And
[15:51] Speaker 2: just don't you just tired, you're emotional, you're fatigued. Let's
[15:56] Speaker 2: go and have some sleep. We'll put him down, watch
[15:58] Speaker 2: a movie, lock all the door. He usually doesn't move.
[16:02] Speaker 2: Did that, And as soon as I hit the bed,
[16:04] Speaker 2: you know, pill, I was out. And the next thing
[16:07] Speaker 2: I knew was here and mummy, Mummy, where I by
[16:11] Speaker 2: the little fire and he's sort of walking around our
[16:12] Speaker 2: bed and I thought, all right over and I didn't
[16:18] Speaker 2: she's not there. Oh I gotta get up. You know,
[16:22] Speaker 2: when you're tired, and your kids kids sort of calling her.
[16:25] Speaker 2: Not thinking anything at all, I said, Okay, let's go
[16:28] Speaker 2: and find mummy. I sort of picked him picked him up,
[16:31] Speaker 2: and it was about four and I was just sort
[16:34] Speaker 2: of mucking around with him. Is she in this room?
[16:36] Speaker 2: And it was and giggle and gurgling, and I remember looking,
[16:41] Speaker 2: you know, now she's not. The kitchen keys are still there,
[16:45] Speaker 2: car still there. She hasn't gone anywhere, like, oh, downstairs,
[16:50] Speaker 2: that's where she must be. In the laundry. That was
[16:52] Speaker 2: the only place where had looked it. Laundry is also
[16:54] Speaker 2: a place where we could rent out and had a
[16:57] Speaker 2: bed and a bit of a quasi sort of grainy
[17:00] Speaker 2: flat time thing. So now walking you have to go outside,
[17:04] Speaker 2: down the side steps and then back in under the house.
[17:07] Speaker 2: Walking down, m clark was still in the middle of
[17:09] Speaker 2: a joke. And then I opened the sliding door and
[17:12] Speaker 2: saw her. And there she was, right in the middle
[17:14] Speaker 2: of the room. She used a electrical cord around the rafters,
[17:19] Speaker 2: and here she was gone. She was I could tell
[17:24] Speaker 2: straight away. She's looking traight at me, not the face
[17:27] Speaker 2: that I remembered, which she really had changed a lot.
[17:31] Speaker 2: My first thought was to get rid of the young fellow.
[17:33] Speaker 2: He doesn't need to see his mom like this, So
[17:35] Speaker 2: it's probably the best footy pass I've ever done in
[17:38] Speaker 2: my life. I wanted to get as far as I
[17:40] Speaker 2: could from there, and so I did that, closed the door,
[17:44] Speaker 2: and then that's when the show hit me. I was like,
[17:49] Speaker 2: I don't know how long I stood there, but I'm
[17:50] Speaker 2: just looking at her and I remember getting hit so
[17:54] Speaker 2: hard on my chest. It was like a footy hit
[17:56] Speaker 2: like a truck. It was physical, and it also felt
[17:59] Speaker 2: like I just slashed my whole open. My legs couldn't move,
[18:03] Speaker 2: they just I dropped to the knees. I was like, what,
[18:06] Speaker 2: I'm screaming. I'm screaming at her. Why, what the hell?
[18:08] Speaker 2: What the hell? Got the stage where I picked her up,
[18:12] Speaker 2: some picked her up and sort of helped take the
[18:16] Speaker 2: weight off because I thought I wanted to try and
[18:20] Speaker 2: I want to get it back. It was so coiled
[18:23] Speaker 2: underneath with the electrical cord. How it gets rubbery, and
[18:26] Speaker 2: I couldn't move it. I needed a third hand, but
[18:28] Speaker 2: I wasn't gonna ask Clark. I thought, okay, what I'm
[18:32] Speaker 2: going to do. I'm looking around. There's nothing, so I
[18:36] Speaker 2: had to slowly just put it down and that didn't
[18:39] Speaker 2: felt good either. Race back upstairs, got a kitchen knife,
[18:43] Speaker 2: cut it down, laid it down, took it around the
[18:46] Speaker 2: neck and just started CPR. And I thought I got
[18:50] Speaker 2: a bag. I really did, because I saw the chest
[18:52] Speaker 2: going up and down. But when I worked out, it
[18:55] Speaker 2: was just my breath going in. Can't out again. I
[18:58] Speaker 2: don't know how long it did it for. I don't remember.
[19:01] Speaker 2: Everything was real what I remember of the day. You know,
[19:04] Speaker 2: I've only found out recently that. But when I rang
[19:07] Speaker 2: one of my good mates, when I was looking at it,
[19:09] Speaker 2: going what the fuck do I do? I didn't know.
[19:11] Speaker 1: That that just that type of type of shock on
[19:16] Speaker 1: trauma that takes who are placed that most people are
[19:19] Speaker 1: not familiar with.
[19:20] Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, And I didn't know what to do. And
[19:24] Speaker 2: it got on the stage where I went, Okay, this
[19:26] Speaker 2: is not I could tell her neck wasn't right and
[19:32] Speaker 2: her face didn't look good and all that was happening,
[19:35] Speaker 2: and I just went on, what I can do with Clark? Clark,
[19:37] Speaker 2: what's Clark to? So I raced back outside and he's
[19:40] Speaker 2: just standing right next to the wall. He's still not
[19:43] Speaker 2: any other idea of what's going on. So I just
[19:46] Speaker 2: picked him up, got on the Triple A and so
[19:49] Speaker 2: can you come here? And I remember sitting up upstairs
[19:53] Speaker 2: at the front in the garden with him, and you
[19:57] Speaker 2: could hear the sirens. And when I found out it
[20:00] Speaker 2: took like seven minutes to get here, it sounded like
[20:03] Speaker 2: it felt like seven hours. I don't know what they
[20:05] Speaker 2: were going to do, but I just needed someone to
[20:07] Speaker 2: be there with me, you know, I didn't know what
[20:08] Speaker 2: to do. I was like, you felt so helpless.
[20:12] Speaker 1: And being confronted like something like that. I would imagine
[20:15] Speaker 1: you're not thinking rationally, it's just overwhelming. Would have been
[20:20] Speaker 1: you being a police officer, you'd also understand what takes place.
[20:25] Speaker 1: Then police are called out, you'd be spoken to and
[20:28] Speaker 1: questioned and they're beginning details. How did that feel from
[20:33] Speaker 1: from the victim's point of view more so than from
[20:36] Speaker 1: there were an involved person's point of view in a
[20:39] Speaker 1: suicide situation, rather than from a police officer's.
[20:44] Speaker 2: It really did. And I think I've written in the book,
[20:48] Speaker 2: when you know the detective inspect sort of asked me,
[20:52] Speaker 2: what did you use in life for? Yeah, but it
[20:54] Speaker 2: wasn't just that. It was really ripping into me and
[20:58] Speaker 2: I wasn't equip for that one. I think I went
[21:02] Speaker 2: into a bit of a hole there. I didn't know
[21:03] Speaker 2: what's he doing, What's what's being a second year copper,
[21:07] Speaker 2: I didn't know what the hell was going on there.
[21:10] Speaker 2: I now understand he was obviously ruling me out and
[21:13] Speaker 2: now to do all of those things, because I know
[21:16] Speaker 2: that now after I spend in the next twenty something
[21:19] Speaker 2: years as a detective. By the time I didn't know
[21:21] Speaker 2: what the hell was going on. I said, what's going
[21:24] Speaker 2: on in my suspect here or something? Yeah? It three
[21:28] Speaker 2: me a bit, three me a bit, And I felt
[21:29] Speaker 2: really about it. I know it's only one person. In hindsight,
[21:34] Speaker 2: he was what here he supposed to do? Yeah, but
[21:37] Speaker 2: I felt that the organization was not supporting me because
[21:41] Speaker 2: of that comment at the time.
[21:44] Speaker 1: But now you understand why that, I do think has
[21:47] Speaker 1: to be. We could talk about this, the impact that
[21:51] Speaker 1: they had on you for hours, and I'm sure it
[21:54] Speaker 1: was a life changing event. But the way I would
[21:58] Speaker 1: describe from that, you've you've found yourself in the dark
[22:01] Speaker 1: hall after that had occurred.
[22:05] Speaker 2: Yeah, I did. I didn't know how to do with it,
[22:07] Speaker 2: you know, I had the white picket fence on semi
[22:10] Speaker 2: weal property on Goshal and with a beautiful lady and
[22:13] Speaker 2: a son, you know, already made family. The next day
[22:17] Speaker 2: gone absolutely gone. I had. I had a suitcase, a
[22:22] Speaker 2: TV and a bed. That was it left And I
[22:25] Speaker 2: remember sitting on this. I went to my sister's place
[22:27] Speaker 2: and she had like a same sort of thing of
[22:30] Speaker 2: granny flat type stuff and I sort of living downstairs. Yeah,
[22:36] Speaker 2: I think that I didn't put the screws in properly
[22:38] Speaker 2: one whatever, and I sat on the bed and it
[22:40] Speaker 2: went down and hit the ground and.
[22:43] Speaker 1: What else.
[22:45] Speaker 2: Yeah, And it's only my minor thing, but that when
[22:47] Speaker 2: you just go when I'm down, man, why I do that?
[22:51] Speaker 2: And that's right? I went, what have I got? What
[22:54] Speaker 2: have I got? What do we do? How do I start?
[22:57] Speaker 2: What do I do?
[22:58] Speaker 1: Was the yang? It was the emotion? Was it anger?
[23:02] Speaker 1: Was at grief? It what were you to?
[23:04] Speaker 2: Day?
[23:05] Speaker 1: Yeah?
[23:05] Speaker 2: It was different every day. Yeah, And I do remember
[23:08] Speaker 2: going through all of the different types. You know, I
[23:10] Speaker 2: was really angry at her for a while that it
[23:13] Speaker 2: was sad for her, and then I felt sorry for
[23:15] Speaker 2: her and I supported her and I got angry again.
[23:19] Speaker 1: So the full range of emotions there was something in
[23:22] Speaker 1: your book that I found interesting. I want to discuss
[23:24] Speaker 1: it because I have so many people on the podcast
[23:27] Speaker 1: and we talk so often about life changing events where
[23:31] Speaker 1: tragedies or horrendous crimes have occurred and how people deal
[23:36] Speaker 1: with the aftermath. And I thought it was interesting that
[23:39] Speaker 1: you had how people responded around your friends family without
[23:43] Speaker 1: naming names, but a couple of points that you bought
[23:46] Speaker 1: up that you want people to acknowledge what you're going
[23:49] Speaker 1: through when you're dealing with a situation that you've just described,
[23:54] Speaker 1: but you don't need people coming up to you and saying,
[23:57] Speaker 1: and I've pulled out a couple of comments from your
[24:00] Speaker 1: book time heels or wounds, you'll be stronger for it.
[24:03] Speaker 1: And then there was one bloke who said, I know
[24:06] Speaker 1: how you feel because my uncle or great uncle died
[24:08] Speaker 1: of cancer and you go fairly hard on those comments,
[24:13] Speaker 1: that that was not what you needed at the time, not.
[24:17] Speaker 2: At all, not at all. I don't blame them, but
[24:21] Speaker 2: don't begrudge them for you. Yeah, because I've pride to that.
[24:25] Speaker 2: I would have said the same thing as well. People
[24:28] Speaker 2: don't know what to say. And I think part of
[24:30] Speaker 2: what I'm doing in this public space is to give
[24:33] Speaker 2: people a few little tips of what to say. Sometimes
[24:35] Speaker 2: you don't have to say anything. Yeah, you just sit
[24:38] Speaker 2: there in the garden with them.
[24:39] Speaker 1: Well, it's interesting because we're having the chat about it
[24:42] Speaker 1: the other day when we're talking, and I know a
[24:45] Speaker 1: lot of families and victims of homicide have issues with
[24:49] Speaker 1: all just say it doesn't help us with the way
[24:51] Speaker 1: people treat us. And sometimes good friends will cross the
[24:55] Speaker 1: road to avoid them because they don't want to say
[24:57] Speaker 1: anything because they just don't know what to say, which
[25:00] Speaker 1: is understandable. People don't know what to say, And as
[25:02] Speaker 1: you said, you're not cranky at the people for saying
[25:05] Speaker 1: that those things they were trying to trying to help.
[25:08] Speaker 1: But you've suggested some comments along these lines that would
[25:12] Speaker 1: be more beneficial if someone is dealing with someone that's
[25:15] Speaker 1: been through a tragedy similar to what you've done or
[25:19] Speaker 1: what you've had occurred to you. Comments such as I
[25:23] Speaker 1: can't imagine your heartbreak. This is really fucked, it's not fair.
[25:27] Speaker 1: I'll be here even when you're not okay. My favorite
[25:31] Speaker 1: memory of Karen is and it's subtle changes, but significant changes,
[25:37] Speaker 1: aren't they? Those type of comments I still remember a
[25:39] Speaker 1: lady Lady I had on the podcast said the best
[25:42] Speaker 1: thing she had and she had had the tragedy lost
[25:46] Speaker 1: a child to a murder when people just came up
[25:49] Speaker 1: to her and one person just phoned up and said,
[25:52] Speaker 1: you know what, life's fucked, and she said, that was
[25:55] Speaker 1: the best thing anyone could say to me. You've been
[25:58] Speaker 1: through it. Tell us those comments how they help you
[26:02] Speaker 1: more than the ones that we mentioned first up?
[26:06] Speaker 2: Well, yeah, like a lot of the ones is you
[26:08] Speaker 2: know you're lucky, you're only young, there's more fish in
[26:10] Speaker 2: the sea. You know it's going to make it.
[26:13] Speaker 1: They'll go down. Well yeah, I.
[26:14] Speaker 2: Mean everyone said all the right things in their eyes,
[26:18] Speaker 2: but what it did was it downplayed what had happened. Okay, yeah,
[26:22] Speaker 2: well it's not that important. There's more fish out in
[26:24] Speaker 2: the sea or whatever. You know, you'll be stronger for this.
[26:29] Speaker 2: And I suppose over the years and when you look
[26:32] Speaker 2: at this, this is in the years two thousand end
[26:34] Speaker 2: up to twenty ten, there was no podcast, there was
[26:37] Speaker 2: no internet, there was nothing. All I had was all
[26:40] Speaker 2: of my friends and my family who hadn't really gone
[26:43] Speaker 2: through significant trauma. They were supportive but didn't know how
[26:46] Speaker 2: to say the right words, and that's where I suppose
[26:51] Speaker 2: I kept pushing it down and down because I felt
[26:55] Speaker 2: that I was getting the way that they were talking
[26:59] Speaker 2: was like I that was played down and it wasn't
[27:02] Speaker 2: that big, so stop carrying on with it, you know.
[27:05] Speaker 2: And that's what it felt like. So I didn't want
[27:07] Speaker 2: to bring it up again. I thought people are sick
[27:09] Speaker 2: of hearing this shit, you know. But it wasn't until
[27:12] Speaker 2: I started podcast, and you know, internet and everything in
[27:15] Speaker 2: the obviously late to say, sixteen seventeen eighty nine is
[27:20] Speaker 2: when I started podcast. It's over America or UK or something,
[27:25] Speaker 2: and wow, that's how I've been feeling for twenty five years. Yeah,
[27:31] Speaker 2: I never heard anyone talk like that. It is real.
[27:34] Speaker 2: I'm not a I'm not a weird ape.
[27:36] Speaker 1: I can understand that you would be lost in your
[27:39] Speaker 1: little world in that time, and you're quite right separating
[27:43] Speaker 1: the time and that was a couple of decades ago.
[27:45] Speaker 1: The world was a completely different play scene and it
[27:47] Speaker 1: would be basically in the mantra of tough guys is yeah,
[27:52] Speaker 1: just suck it up, princess, get on with your life,
[27:55] Speaker 1: build a bridge, get over it, those type of comments, which, yeah,
[28:01] Speaker 1: that sound good in theory, but it doesn't actually work
[28:03] Speaker 1: that way, does it.
[28:04] Speaker 2: Like in my reintegration from under after undercover went up
[28:08] Speaker 2: to Dutton Park and there was a and I just
[28:11] Speaker 2: went to the female inspector. She was a lovely lady,
[28:15] Speaker 2: and I thought she would have understood and been compassionate.
[28:18] Speaker 2: And I think back then she was trying to do
[28:20] Speaker 2: the right thing. But in hindsight, you look at it,
[28:22] Speaker 2: that's not the right thing. And I said, I just
[28:26] Speaker 2: for a couple of months, can I not go to
[28:27] Speaker 2: suicide's please? She goes, you can't pick and choose what
[28:30] Speaker 2: jobs you go. This was after Yeah, so reintegration where
[28:35] Speaker 2: I just had to go back and do GDS for
[28:37] Speaker 2: three months.
[28:37] Speaker 1: Yeah, you wanted to avoid that, said, is.
[28:39] Speaker 2: There anyway I could understand? It's not that easy just
[28:42] Speaker 2: to go you're here in that car, don't go to
[28:44] Speaker 2: that job. It's not that easy. But she goes, what
[28:47] Speaker 2: we've got to do is we need to desensitize you
[28:50] Speaker 2: for police work. So I'm going to see you then
[28:54] Speaker 2: and watch some autopsies for a couple of days. I said, no,
[28:58] Speaker 2: not going to do that. That is not going to
[29:02] Speaker 2: fix me.
[29:04] Speaker 1: Yeah, as you said, trying to help trying to trying
[29:07] Speaker 1: to manage it, but I don't think that that would fly.
[29:11] Speaker 1: We had it in homicide about baby deaths. We're doing
[29:15] Speaker 1: the hell of a lot of baby deaths at one stage,
[29:17] Speaker 1: and no one likes to do them. But it was
[29:19] Speaker 1: mandatory reporting, so any child that died we'd have to
[29:22] Speaker 1: go to and we're getting in undated with that, and
[29:25] Speaker 1: I know that impacted on quite a few people and
[29:27] Speaker 1: got to the point where, yeah, they said, I just
[29:30] Speaker 1: can't go to another another baby death. So the period
[29:34] Speaker 1: of time after after Karen's suicide, i'd suggest was pretty
[29:39] Speaker 1: dark for you.
[29:40] Speaker 2: And yeah, and the keep heres gave me they agreed
[29:44] Speaker 2: to give me three months off, Yeah, which was great.
[29:46] Speaker 2: But what that meant was that I sit in my
[29:49] Speaker 2: sister's house. Everyone else is gone to work, and I'm
[29:52] Speaker 2: just sitting there by myself for three months. What do
[29:55] Speaker 2: you reckon? I did found a bottle? You're sitting there
[29:58] Speaker 2: for In the morning, You're going, what I want to
[30:01] Speaker 2: do today? Nothing? And next thing, you know, got earlier
[30:05] Speaker 2: and earlier each day, and I was righting myself off
[30:07] Speaker 2: every day. So I go to sleep.
[30:09] Speaker 1: That's that's the warning sign, isn't it? And when you
[30:12] Speaker 1: start to drink earlier each day. You eventually went back
[30:16] Speaker 1: to work, You went back to work in uniform. How
[30:19] Speaker 1: long after it was you discovered your interested in undercover
[30:23] Speaker 1: work and what made you think going down that path.
[30:27] Speaker 2: Yeah. When I went back up to Bruib and went
[30:29] Speaker 2: back to uniform at interprelstation, I still didn't even know
[30:34] Speaker 2: what undercover was. I had no had no interest in it,
[30:39] Speaker 2: and I hadn't cross come across anyone that had done it,
[30:42] Speaker 2: so it wasn't in my thoughts. But I did up
[30:45] Speaker 2: going into the colb and just sort of relieve there
[30:48] Speaker 2: for for the next couple of months, and I work
[30:50] Speaker 2: with a fella, Punisher who he had just done undercover
[30:56] Speaker 2: and was still living it.
[30:57] Speaker 1: That was his name, Punisher, that was his nickname.
[31:00] Speaker 2: I'm to ask, just like he like the TV show
[31:03] Speaker 2: the movie, I think right, And yes he in the
[31:07] Speaker 2: car he was just telling me all the stories, all
[31:09] Speaker 2: the good stories, and that I was really listening to them. Gun,
[31:14] Speaker 2: this sounds all right. And then it was a couple
[31:16] Speaker 2: of weeks later I was at a bar in the
[31:18] Speaker 2: in the valley, caught Dooley's playing Pearls a bit dodgy
[31:22] Speaker 2: and you know, I was at the bar and I
[31:25] Speaker 2: heard a voice and it'd been the same fellow who
[31:27] Speaker 2: taught me to joining the cops. And I looked at him.
[31:31] Speaker 2: Didn't look anything like him. He had bloody hair all
[31:32] Speaker 2: over the place. He looked like he looked like, you
[31:35] Speaker 2: know someone from what I called him was you look
[31:39] Speaker 2: like you look at one of the raidies from John
[31:42] Speaker 2: Baby John John.
[31:44] Speaker 1: Baby, John Bond j.
[31:47] Speaker 2: Tribute band. Here, Well, all the rest of the bands
[31:50] Speaker 2: over here coming over look under covers covers, and they
[31:54] Speaker 2: started telling about these stories and and I'm going, man,
[31:57] Speaker 2: this sounds cool. And they said, well, actually got a
[32:00] Speaker 2: course next month. We only run them every two years. Yep,
[32:04] Speaker 2: good timing. You applied it, did it got in? What?
[32:08] Speaker 1: Without giving away trade secrets, just give us a sense
[32:12] Speaker 1: of the type of course and the type of things
[32:14] Speaker 1: they throw you into, because I know, like I know
[32:17] Speaker 1: a lot of ucs and and what they have to
[32:19] Speaker 1: go through. But it's testing you in a wide range
[32:23] Speaker 1: of skills that they're not necessarily yeah, the type of
[32:26] Speaker 1: skills for normal.
[32:28] Speaker 2: Please, like most of the police higher end courses where
[32:34] Speaker 2: it's quite demanding, most of it are all set up
[32:37] Speaker 2: to fail. And see how you handle the failure. I
[32:41] Speaker 2: suppose back then I'd already handled, in my eyes, a
[32:46] Speaker 2: big setback, So anything furtherm that didn't really matter. Yeah,
[32:51] Speaker 2: and my heart wasn't set. I was just I'd just
[32:53] Speaker 2: do another thing. I don't care what it is, but
[32:55] Speaker 2: this sounds cool. But yeah, so they put you in
[32:58] Speaker 2: really high stress situations. You handle it. There were some
[33:01] Speaker 2: really good ones. A lot of scenarios with people that
[33:06] Speaker 2: you don't even know are they cops or they're real.
[33:09] Speaker 1: Or just throw you into a pub and tell you
[33:11] Speaker 1: to come out with the number of someone's address, or
[33:15] Speaker 1: things like that's their dogs.
[33:16] Speaker 2: Yeah.
[33:16] Speaker 1: Yeah, and the lifestyle that you'll lived, And that's what
[33:21] Speaker 1: I touched on. Your lifestyle you lived before you join
[33:25] Speaker 1: the cops. I described it as reckless, which I think
[33:28] Speaker 1: is a kind way that would have helped you in
[33:31] Speaker 1: those situations because the type of things that the undercovers
[33:34] Speaker 1: would throw you into during the course, I would imagine
[33:36] Speaker 1: these areas that you're very familiar with.
[33:38] Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I was in training, Yeah, before I even
[33:42] Speaker 2: knew it. But I think the real part of the course, yeah,
[33:50] Speaker 2: was that the instructors were just watching, Hey, hell he
[33:54] Speaker 2: you behaved, Hew, you dealt with stuff. If you're calm,
[33:58] Speaker 2: dealt with it. We did a lot of drinking as well.
[34:02] Speaker 1: Yeah, get on the drink, don't worry about where the undercovers.
[34:04] Speaker 1: And some people get a bit loose, and.
[34:07] Speaker 2: That even get people to come in that night or whatever,
[34:11] Speaker 2: just a random and start talking to that person. It
[34:14] Speaker 2: could be a girl, could be blake. Yeah, and if
[34:16] Speaker 2: that person sort of says, oh, I'm want an undercover,
[34:19] Speaker 2: of course at the moment we are gone.
[34:21] Speaker 1: Right, okay, Yeah, Well it's because the pressures are real,
[34:27] Speaker 1: so they've got to weed people out. And yeah, I
[34:30] Speaker 1: don't begrudge them putting you through a pressure situation to
[34:34] Speaker 1: get your qualified because I see the type of work
[34:36] Speaker 1: that you do as a UCS. Now it also worked
[34:41] Speaker 1: out you got through obviously, or otherwise we wouldn't be
[34:44] Speaker 1: having this conversation. You found solitude in the undercover work
[34:49] Speaker 1: because it took you away from the pain that you
[34:52] Speaker 1: were suffering. As tired as that fair to say, talk
[34:56] Speaker 1: to us about that. What's the psychology behind that?
[35:00] Speaker 2: I suppose when I joined the under Cavock they gave
[35:03] Speaker 2: me a printed out a piece of paper and there's
[35:06] Speaker 2: your name, Donnie Wilson and I've got that. I found
[35:08] Speaker 2: it ages ago, and I laminated and put in the
[35:11] Speaker 2: book and that's it. That's even now. Really, okay, take
[35:17] Speaker 2: a car not to whatever tear and you're going to
[35:20] Speaker 2: go to and see you soon.
[35:22] Speaker 1: How much of Donnie do you have to embrace? Like
[35:25] Speaker 1: it's got to stand up to scrutiny. And when you're
[35:27] Speaker 1: going in on the on the crooks, there sus of
[35:30] Speaker 1: undercovered people. So how much of a profile do you build?
[35:34] Speaker 1: And how comfortable are you being Donnie? Because if you
[35:36] Speaker 1: walked into the pub, I'd go, hey, Todd, how are
[35:39] Speaker 1: you mate? But you're not tied anymore, You're Donnie. How
[35:42] Speaker 1: much practice? How much preparation does it take to get
[35:44] Speaker 1: into the mindset of becoming another person?
[35:48] Speaker 2: Yeah, heaps and hates. You know all of my work
[35:50] Speaker 2: colleagues and my family, close close family basically, well just
[35:56] Speaker 2: you never said Todd, anyone always called me Donnie. Live
[35:59] Speaker 2: it that practice it Have people yell out to you
[36:04] Speaker 2: and see if you listen to Todd or Donnie. You know,
[36:07] Speaker 2: when I was even sort of learning, as I was
[36:09] Speaker 2: going up, of course, I'd sit at a bar and
[36:15] Speaker 2: I'd strike up a conversation, and I'd make up a
[36:18] Speaker 2: topic that I had to bullshit on and see how
[36:21] Speaker 2: far a good day. It worked every time. So I
[36:24] Speaker 2: just got better and better at it.
[36:26] Speaker 1: And did you fully embrace it? Is that what you
[36:30] Speaker 1: have to do to be good? You've got to have
[36:34] Speaker 1: the swag of whatever that is. How would you describe
[36:36] Speaker 1: Donnie to describe him as a person, what's his profile?
[36:40] Speaker 2: Yeah, Donny is that crazy, crazy blake that would be
[36:44] Speaker 2: the life of the party. He'd be in the middle
[36:46] Speaker 2: of all the blake's telling a story. He'd do. You know,
[36:49] Speaker 2: if someone said you go and steal that, go and
[36:52] Speaker 2: do that, go and do something stupid, Donnie would do it.
[36:56] Speaker 2: There's this thing that a lot of my friends now
[36:58] Speaker 2: are saying, is you know what would Donnie do every
[37:01] Speaker 2: time you had a fork in the road. Yeah, they
[37:03] Speaker 2: go the right way, the wrong way. We always say,
[37:06] Speaker 2: what would Donnie do? Yeah, you do that? Go that
[37:08] Speaker 2: way there?
[37:09] Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, so steer you away from it, yes, And
[37:13] Speaker 1: it became it almost became where you were Todd was
[37:16] Speaker 1: fighting with Donnie to hold on to who you were.
[37:20] Speaker 2: Yeah. I wanted to stay Donnie.
[37:22] Speaker 1: Because look, we're talking about it, but I could imagine
[37:25] Speaker 1: it being a bit of a mind fuck.
[37:27] Speaker 2: I think my mind was already fucked. Yeah, fair enough.
[37:31] Speaker 1: That's why you're the perfect perfect so Donnie. Yeah, I
[37:35] Speaker 1: can play Donnie. I actually am Donnie.
[37:38] Speaker 2: Like some days, you know, you'd be at the pubble day,
[37:41] Speaker 2: playing pearl, you know, talking to your your crooks and
[37:44] Speaker 2: all that sort of stuff. You'd be getting messages from
[37:47] Speaker 2: your controller saying that's an half come on, yeah, man,
[37:50] Speaker 2: I'm having a great day. I'd rather be with them
[37:52] Speaker 2: right now because I've got no worries with him. I
[37:56] Speaker 2: go back there, I got statements, I've got transcripts, all
[38:00] Speaker 2: this sort of ship. And then I got to think
[38:01] Speaker 2: about being Todd.
[38:02] Speaker 1: And that's that's the part of the job when you
[38:05] Speaker 1: talk about you know, you could be at the bar
[38:06] Speaker 1: playing pool all day, drinking and building up a contact,
[38:10] Speaker 1: friendships and the type of things. Just so people understand,
[38:14] Speaker 1: when you're saying control, that's like a supervisor that's over
[38:17] Speaker 1: seeing you. So if you're referencing your controller, that's someone
[38:21] Speaker 1: that you're making contact with in the cops.
[38:24] Speaker 2: Yeah, a controller is a really good kind of between
[38:27] Speaker 2: the undercover agent and headquarters. Yeah yeah, and that person
[38:31] Speaker 2: goes away with you, lives in a totally separate area,
[38:34] Speaker 2: have minimal contact, but they are They the ears and
[38:37] Speaker 2: the eyes and whatever information that he can pass on
[38:41] Speaker 2: to me.
[38:41] Speaker 1: So if I'm running from the tech this point of
[38:44] Speaker 1: view and investigation, I'm not contacting Donnie directly. I'm contacting
[38:48] Speaker 1: the controller, the controllers sifting through the information that comes
[38:51] Speaker 1: back to me, all the information that goes to you. Yeah,
[38:55] Speaker 1: let's let's jump in and talk about a case. And
[38:59] Speaker 1: one of the cases I'd like you to tell us about,
[39:03] Speaker 1: just to give people full understanding of what you actually do, Kabulcher.
[39:07] Speaker 1: I want you to talk about Martiall Crystal and mad Madden,
[39:12] Speaker 1: because that was a wild story.
[39:13] Speaker 2: It was.
[39:14] Speaker 1: Yeah, that was and this is you know, we sit
[39:16] Speaker 1: here laughing, but you can laugh when you've survived. Laugh now,
[39:20] Speaker 1: you can laugh now. But tell us about that, because
[39:23] Speaker 1: if you if people think that the UC work is
[39:26] Speaker 1: like Miami Vice and living the good life, there's a
[39:30] Speaker 1: lot of a lot of darker places that you gave them.
[39:34] Speaker 1: Live in the high life when you're the cover cop.
[39:36] Speaker 1: Tell us tell us the story about that case.
[39:38] Speaker 2: Yeah, it was up in Kabulcha. Yeah, it's a pretty
[39:41] Speaker 2: pretty sort of fair, sort of rough place when you
[39:44] Speaker 2: get into involved and it's actually really cool joint, but yeah,
[39:48] Speaker 2: you got to they can read out the weak ones there.
[39:52] Speaker 2: So the informant that I had was only a young
[39:54] Speaker 2: fellow and he wasn't really connected too high, so it
[39:57] Speaker 2: was just street level. So I knew that I'd have
[39:59] Speaker 2: to start street and just keep ding going up because
[40:01] Speaker 2: you always want to jump in your next one and
[40:03] Speaker 2: keep doing and anyway, so I'll make Crystal and uh
[40:09] Speaker 2: and Marshall because Crystal had a link somehow to wanted
[40:15] Speaker 2: to get to so and this Marshal is someone someone
[40:19] Speaker 2: that I just genuinely did not like, not a not
[40:22] Speaker 2: an Ilice person at all. And in his house at Kibulcha,
[40:27] Speaker 2: all there was was a set of stereo DJ set
[40:33] Speaker 2: just that was it almost And as I drive into
[40:36] Speaker 2: the street you could hear the music and it was
[40:40] Speaker 2: always Eminem. It was always Eminem. I still can can
[40:44] Speaker 2: sing every word of it because I heard it over
[40:46] Speaker 2: and over and over and.
[40:48] Speaker 1: That that that's so you're basically befriending Crystal and Marshal
[40:55] Speaker 1: to get some drugs and work your way higher up
[40:58] Speaker 1: in the in the pecking order.
[40:59] Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, so sort of go over there almost every
[41:01] Speaker 2: day and every day and it was like I'm chasing
[41:05] Speaker 2: you anything you got anything? Yeah, you know, what about
[41:07] Speaker 2: that other stuff? And finally he goes, oh, yeah, you're
[41:11] Speaker 2: the car. Let's go. One of the best things ever
[41:16] Speaker 2: happened in undercover is they gave me this this car
[41:19] Speaker 2: and it was a yellow vacationer and had the black
[41:21] Speaker 2: and white mook our car seats on the back.
[41:23] Speaker 1: Cool.
[41:23] Speaker 2: I was so proud, so proud, and it fit in
[41:27] Speaker 2: really well in cavulture.
[41:29] Speaker 1: Okay, you've just summed up the place you were working.
[41:32] Speaker 2: Yeah. So yeah. And I always have, you know, mixed
[41:38] Speaker 2: cassettes and all that sort of stuff with all the
[41:39] Speaker 2: different songs, and I loved always turning up and just
[41:43] Speaker 2: ripping it around. And anyway, he goes, let's go, let's go,
[41:47] Speaker 2: And I was thinking it was going to be from
[41:49] Speaker 2: Eddie Matt but ended up being some other fella. And
[41:53] Speaker 2: I'm filthy, but I ses, who's who knows where that's
[41:58] Speaker 2: going to take us and it could be something good.
[41:59] Speaker 2: Say let's go for it. So as we're going down,
[42:02] Speaker 2: he goes, I'm going to go get some money out
[42:04] Speaker 2: of the bank and and you know when you had
[42:07] Speaker 2: to do the slips and give it to the lady.
[42:10] Speaker 2: So I'm I'm standing sort of at the back of
[42:12] Speaker 2: the bank with Crystal and he could see him getting
[42:16] Speaker 2: all angry because he had a temper and I'm surprised
[42:20] Speaker 2: he didn't hit the tailor. That would have of course issues.
[42:22] Speaker 2: But anyways, he's come back and he was fucking fuming.
[42:27] Speaker 2: You could see him sucking his eyes wide and he's
[42:29] Speaker 2: on Crystal, if you fucking take money out of our car,
[42:33] Speaker 2: and she was doing I had to get grace. He's
[42:35] Speaker 2: my ailing and the junkies and he's just dector in
[42:40] Speaker 2: the bank. And I think that was my first one
[42:43] Speaker 2: where my identity went, am I tidy? Am I tod
[42:47] Speaker 2: the copper? Or am I under cover? I am going
[42:49] Speaker 2: to ruin me? Yeah, So I think it was. I
[42:52] Speaker 2: stood there for ages like what I went, Okay, I'm
[42:56] Speaker 2: donny fucking dirt do that again? You're rotting mile.
[43:00] Speaker 1: So you stood over the top of her. How did
[43:03] Speaker 1: that feel? Because that goes against all your your instincts.
[43:06] Speaker 2: Yeah, ship personally, but as I sort of went back
[43:11] Speaker 2: to the car.
[43:11] Speaker 1: That gets you incredibility that well, that was smart work. Yeah, yeah,
[43:15] Speaker 1: that was a good move. But yeah, you must have
[43:20] Speaker 1: a distaste in your mouth when you see ship like
[43:22] Speaker 1: that and the type of people that marshal a piece
[43:25] Speaker 1: of ship that.
[43:26] Speaker 2: Yeah, and that poor girl, you know, she came running
[43:29] Speaker 2: back to the car, blood coming down her nose and
[43:31] Speaker 2: ship like that, and she was apologizing, still apologizing, okay,
[43:37] Speaker 2: and it was like, this is the world I'm in now,
[43:40] Speaker 2: So Donnie has just got to carry on as if
[43:41] Speaker 2: not chocked at all, and that you got what you deserved.
[43:44] Speaker 2: That's the life they live. And she's still apologizing.
[43:48] Speaker 1: And how how did that job play out? Where did
[43:51] Speaker 1: you where did you get further up the up the line?
[43:54] Speaker 2: Yeah? I did, yeah with that one, Like you know,
[43:57] Speaker 2: I kept on saying, do not lay it on my house.
[44:00] Speaker 2: You know, I don't know how I'm going to fix them.
[44:04] Speaker 2: And anyway, I gave a tissue, just put it on
[44:07] Speaker 2: your nose. So we're gone to Red Roy Street, Deception Bay.
[44:11] Speaker 2: I picked up some gear and they just couldn't wait.
[44:14] Speaker 2: They couldn't wait. The car, let's stop stop, So I said,
[44:17] Speaker 2: people everywhere. I finally found this sort of on the
[44:20] Speaker 2: water looking out that way. I'm going, No, I think
[44:23] Speaker 2: we're all right. So they've got the needles out. Oh
[44:27] Speaker 2: how good? The feel for steel are saying you get
[44:30] Speaker 2: me right there, and I'm going, yeah good, I said,
[44:35] Speaker 2: I don't like needles, you know that? Yeah, And I
[44:37] Speaker 2: pretended to vomb it but I didn't. And anyway I
[44:40] Speaker 2: can hear crystal direction, I was like, fucking don't you dare,
[44:44] Speaker 2: don't you dare fucking spew on my car seats. So
[44:47] Speaker 2: I jumped out of the car and I ripped her
[44:49] Speaker 2: out and I said, get the fuck out of here.
[44:51] Speaker 2: And I thought, well, that's how you try out that
[44:54] Speaker 2: would Yeah. As I saw that, I looked back over
[44:57] Speaker 2: that way's and it's a school to Primis Scho and
[45:00] Speaker 2: there's like thirty kids just looking through the through the
[45:03] Speaker 2: tennis courts car. What's happening here? This is not good boy.
[45:09] Speaker 2: I've tirly forgotten what Mark was doing. But he's jumped
[45:12] Speaker 2: around and he's in the driver seat. He's going, let's go, motherfuckers,
[45:15] Speaker 2: and I go on, he's on the high. It really
[45:18] Speaker 2: hit him. So I raced around and his window up,
[45:22] Speaker 2: jump in, jumping jump in. I said, no, you're not
[45:25] Speaker 2: fucking driving this car. He goes, well, you snow as
[45:29] Speaker 2: you lose man. She's jumped in the front seat, so
[45:32] Speaker 2: I've dived in the back seat just as he's taken
[45:34] Speaker 2: off and he's driving like he's Starlet. Yeah, he really was.
[45:39] Speaker 2: It was out of control. He was just being crazy,
[45:42] Speaker 2: knocking letterboxes over, hitting cars, going in the wrong way.
[45:45] Speaker 2: They're screaming at each other. You know that they hate
[45:47] Speaker 2: each other and they love each other, and then go
[45:49] Speaker 2: fast and go slower and go.
[45:51] Speaker 1: I'm laughing at you, but no good situation to be
[45:57] Speaker 1: It was comedy, it really was, but dangerous.
[46:01] Speaker 2: But I remember specifically thinking in the back, where the
[46:05] Speaker 2: fuck's this needle? I don't want to be hit with
[46:07] Speaker 2: this needle because I was getting trying all over the place.
[46:10] Speaker 2: I didn't get it, but I don't know what happened,
[46:12] Speaker 2: but it must be still been outside and anyway, this
[46:17] Speaker 2: lunatic pulls out a hunting knife and puts it straight
[46:19] Speaker 2: on her knee to shut.
[46:21] Speaker 1: Her up, stabs her.
[46:22] Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that was an art, went what else is
[46:26] Speaker 2: going to happen to?
[46:27] Speaker 1: What did you do?
[46:28] Speaker 2: What did you do? Then he then slammed on the
[46:32] Speaker 2: brakes started crying what have I done? I love you
[46:34] Speaker 2: so much? Blah blah blah. That's when I got out,
[46:37] Speaker 2: get the fuck out of my car. So I ripped
[46:39] Speaker 2: both of them out, put him in the gutter. Out
[46:42] Speaker 2: of there, I'm going on. So I rang my controller.
[46:44] Speaker 2: I think you better get an ambulance and some cops
[46:46] Speaker 2: to this corner of the street. Yea, he ended up
[46:49] Speaker 2: getting pinched, so and she got fixed.
[46:51] Speaker 1: And did you did you get higher up?
[46:54] Speaker 2: I eventually did got the real big fellow Madden. He
[46:58] Speaker 2: was you know what I was talking about before. You know,
[47:01] Speaker 2: the cops had worked on him many times, and he
[47:04] Speaker 2: was too good. He was a really, really big, big
[47:06] Speaker 2: speed cook.
[47:07] Speaker 1: And I got him the steps in there. There was
[47:11] Speaker 1: a passage in your book you described and sitting in
[47:14] Speaker 1: this doss house that passing around dirty bongs and all that.
[47:20] Speaker 1: You just got to suck it, suck it up, haven't
[47:22] Speaker 1: you walk in there like this is an environment? And yeah,
[47:27] Speaker 1: I don't think the general public would appreciate the level
[47:30] Speaker 1: of deprivation that goes into these drug houses and what
[47:33] Speaker 1: you're dealing with. There a lot of cops, depending on
[47:36] Speaker 1: the nature of the work, seen those environments, and you
[47:39] Speaker 1: just got to settle yourself in there and be part
[47:41] Speaker 1: of that environment.
[47:42] Speaker 2: He got told very early by one of the informants
[47:45] Speaker 2: and crooks along the way as well, saying, you know,
[47:49] Speaker 2: we don't do it like you Blake's. We don't bring
[47:51] Speaker 2: a six pack around and have six goals with each other.
[47:55] Speaker 1: You know.
[47:56] Speaker 2: We load the load the bong out and pass it around. Yeah,
[48:00] Speaker 2: and if you're not prepared to do that, don't come
[48:02] Speaker 2: because if you say no, they don't trust you. You're out.
[48:06] Speaker 1: They don't trust you. So how long did this job take?
[48:10] Speaker 1: And you're relocating to another town. You just can't turn
[48:13] Speaker 1: up and be go away and back home every every day?
[48:18] Speaker 1: Do you have to embed yourself in the town? Are
[48:19] Speaker 1: you pretty much bedding yourself?
[48:21] Speaker 2: You want to be seen as much as possible. Now,
[48:23] Speaker 2: I was out all day or night just being in
[48:26] Speaker 2: the town, just being outside. I wasn't stuck in my unit.
[48:29] Speaker 2: So yeah, yeah, you just had to be he had
[48:32] Speaker 2: to be seen all the time.
[48:33] Speaker 1: So that was part of your part of your cover.
[48:37] Speaker 1: You're up on about how long did that job last?
[48:41] Speaker 2: There's nine months all up. Yeah, So I could have
[48:44] Speaker 2: dedicated a whole book to the whole thing, but I
[48:46] Speaker 2: sort of skipped over to the main parts yeah, because
[48:48] Speaker 2: it was it was a fair but slogging out to
[48:51] Speaker 2: keep getting, keep getting, keep getting. So I think with
[48:53] Speaker 2: the closure, we had something like fifty four targets that
[48:57] Speaker 2: I'd sort of got with another Blake as well. We
[49:01] Speaker 2: both sort of looked at at different angles, and there
[49:03] Speaker 2: was a lot of people that got caught up in
[49:04] Speaker 2: the net.
[49:05] Speaker 1: So because I know, if you embed yourself in anywhere
[49:07] Speaker 1: even and yeah, even if you're hanging around with crooks
[49:10] Speaker 1: long enough, you start to build a rapport with them,
[49:13] Speaker 1: whether you like it or not. It does each job
[49:15] Speaker 1: like that changer.
[49:17] Speaker 2: Like yeah, yeah, as it happens, as the time goes on,
[49:21] Speaker 2: you get more anti police. Obviously, when you start, you're
[49:24] Speaker 2: still feeling like a police officer and you're trying to
[49:27] Speaker 2: tell yourself not to. By the end of it, you're
[49:30] Speaker 2: really anti police because you've convinced yourself to be like
[49:33] Speaker 2: that and act like that when you're around the crooks,
[49:36] Speaker 2: Like whenever you see a copka, give it the finger
[49:38] Speaker 2: and all that sort of what crooks dough that's what
[49:41] Speaker 2: And I just got two used to.
[49:42] Speaker 1: It, So you change. Did you get back to your
[49:45] Speaker 1: family much at all? Did Todd come back during that
[49:48] Speaker 1: period of time at different stages.
[49:50] Speaker 2: Yeah, I did over the times. There was one story
[49:54] Speaker 2: I tell about the book, and it was just an
[49:56] Speaker 2: indication of how my mindset was, you know, I think
[50:00] Speaker 2: it was. I started in January in undercover work and
[50:04] Speaker 2: this was February and they're putting on a family dinner
[50:08] Speaker 2: for me. And I was on my third day of
[50:11] Speaker 2: a bender again and I had been drinking all day
[50:13] Speaker 2: since sunner and I was just steaming along. Phone was ringing.
[50:18] Speaker 2: I knew there was a family do one for me.
[50:20] Speaker 2: I'm my go it's this will be too bad. I'm
[50:24] Speaker 2: in a bad state. Anyway, my sister come and picked
[50:27] Speaker 2: me up. She found out where I was, and it
[50:29] Speaker 2: was a little bit to get me in there in
[50:31] Speaker 2: the car. Finally got it and I went, yep, okay,
[50:33] Speaker 2: I'll go down. And I was that drunk that I
[50:37] Speaker 2: was at the restaurant with my family and I'm swearing
[50:41] Speaker 2: and I'm talking fucking just that dickhead in the corner
[50:45] Speaker 2: that was too drunk and talking and everyone was just
[50:48] Speaker 2: could hear what I'm saying. And I'm giving them sprays
[50:51] Speaker 2: and giving the white to sprays and all that sort
[50:53] Speaker 2: of stuff because I just I was in that state.
[50:55] Speaker 2: You know, I hated the world, angry at what happened
[50:58] Speaker 2: to me, and alcohol sort of brought it out even more.
[51:03] Speaker 2: But my dad and my brother kept on saying to me,
[51:07] Speaker 2: just quite down and stopped swearing. Said okay, okay, okay.
[51:13] Speaker 2: I said that again. I just didn't know what else
[51:14] Speaker 2: to say. You know, I was used to it. And
[51:17] Speaker 2: the dad said, okay, we're going to charge your dollar
[51:20] Speaker 2: every time you swear. And they're just mucking around with it,
[51:22] Speaker 2: just being fun whatever. And I still had something like
[51:26] Speaker 2: five grand or three grand in my pocket of impress
[51:28] Speaker 2: that was for a bye lader in the week, and
[51:31] Speaker 2: I got up and I slammed the money. The hundreds
[51:34] Speaker 2: went everywhere, tipped up the table. I said, well that
[51:36] Speaker 2: should fucking cover it for the night.
[51:37] Speaker 1: Then in it, okay, I got notes about that. I
[51:45] Speaker 1: was going to raise that. I think I just called
[51:47] Speaker 1: you a funck with or something. When you face with
[51:50] Speaker 1: your family, I've apologized, you've described it, and I'm that's
[51:55] Speaker 1: why I'm saying that. The start, I was thinking, I'm
[51:57] Speaker 1: going to have to phone some blokes that know you
[51:58] Speaker 1: and go, is this bloke have we bought him back?
[52:01] Speaker 1: Because I just on that aspect. I was reading, thinking,
[52:05] Speaker 1: this is bad when you're acting that way with your family,
[52:09] Speaker 1: Like that's how deep you went into the persona of Donnie.
[52:13] Speaker 1: They take you to a family function and you're carrying
[52:16] Speaker 1: on like an absolute dickhead.
[52:18] Speaker 2: I'm so embarrassed about it. But you know, I consider
[52:21] Speaker 2: not putting in the book and I went, no, I've
[52:22] Speaker 2: got to bear anything, I've got to own everything, and
[52:25] Speaker 2: all that sort of stuff.
[52:26] Speaker 1: I'm glad you did because people need to under You
[52:29] Speaker 1: can't change your persona go and do the type of
[52:32] Speaker 1: work that the UC does, and when you're going undercover
[52:37] Speaker 1: and expect them just to then return to a family
[52:40] Speaker 1: function and behave themselves. You've been living the life of
[52:43] Speaker 1: an outlaw and you can't thensider the family function and
[52:47] Speaker 1: behave yourself. Although I do think you went too far
[52:51] Speaker 1: and you obnoxious prick getting money out and throw it,
[52:54] Speaker 1: throwing it there and tipping the table. Your family must
[52:57] Speaker 1: have been really proud.
[52:58] Speaker 2: Ah. I just look back now and they they must
[53:00] Speaker 2: have just been scratching their heads, going, what can we
[53:03] Speaker 2: do for him? Yeah, yeah, he's lost, he's not listening
[53:06] Speaker 2: to us.
[53:07] Speaker 1: It would be sad for them because they would be
[53:09] Speaker 1: thinking they're losing you and doing everything they can hang
[53:13] Speaker 1: on to you, and they're losing you and saying.
[53:16] Speaker 2: That once I sort of got all of this and
[53:20] Speaker 2: put it all together, and you know, I've apologized that
[53:22] Speaker 2: many times and mums and dads don't want to hear that,
[53:24] Speaker 2: but yeah, I feel better saying it.
[53:26] Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, it's probably the fact that you had a
[53:29] Speaker 1: good family around you perhaps made the difference why you're
[53:32] Speaker 1: here talking now, because God knows where you would have
[53:35] Speaker 1: would have headed after that. We might just take a
[53:39] Speaker 1: break here. We're a little bit off Donnie at the moment.
[53:42] Speaker 1: We'll try in part two, we'll try to get him,
[53:45] Speaker 1: get him back some money.
[53:46] Speaker 2: I said Donny was a nice person, getting back.
[53:48] Speaker 1: Some credit points. We've got a lot to talk about, obviously,
[53:52] Speaker 1: other crazy experiences. I want you to tell the story
[53:56] Speaker 1: about your time in the biking club where you've been
[54:00] Speaker 1: accused of being a cop and you're wearing a wire
[54:02] Speaker 1: at the time, and how you manage your way way
[54:05] Speaker 1: through that.
[54:05] Speaker 2: Thanks.
[54:06] Speaker 1: Cheers.
[54:15] Speaker 2: M

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