# The fast money & dark nights that led to prison: Natascha Consigli Pt. 1

An episode of [I Catch Killers with Gary Jubelin](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1506667049), 19 Sep 2026, 1 h 05 min.

Audio: https://p.podderapp.com/2544644999/traffic.omny.fm/d/clips/2fb3740d-3436-44af-8cc0-a91900716aa5/5bc8c2ed-b718-4f44-beb3-ac2a005246cc/67f7dac4-b504-477f-858c-b4ca00ac5f88/audio.mp3?utm_source=Podcast&in_playlist=786928c3-10c1-4cef-a7bf-ac2a005246d0

Raised nomadically across India, France, Italy and Spain, Natascha Consigli's childhood ended abruptly at age 10, when her mother was killed in a head-on collision with a truck. What followed was a life lived at the extremes — from air hostess to stripper to prison for her involvement in a multi million dollar drug operation. This is a raw, unflinching account of addiction, survival, and the long road to accountability. Natascha talks about quitting ice overnight, meeting her drug-dealing partner in rehab, why bikie clubhouses felt like the safest place to work as a stripper, and how prison forced her to confront her own privilege. In this episode: • Losing her mum at 10 and raised across the world — how childhood shaped her choices • From air hostess to stripping — money, power and danger in the clubs • Ice addiction, rehab and the relationship that led to drug dealing • Prison life, shame, privilege and taking full responsibility • Redemption, advocacy and rebuilding after release See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

## Transcript

[0:01] Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.
[0:05] Speaker 1: Detectives see a side of life the average person is
[0:07] Speaker 1: never exposed to. I spent 34 years as a cop.
[0:12] Speaker 1: For 25 of those years I was catching killers. That's
[0:14] Speaker 1: what I did for a living. I was a homicide detective.
[0:18] Speaker 1: I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead I'm taking
[0:21] Speaker 1: the public into the world in which I operated. The
[0:24] Speaker 1: guests I talk to each week have amazing stories from
[0:26] Speaker 1: all sides of the law. The interviews are raw and honest,
[0:29] Speaker 1: just like the people I talk to. Some of the
[0:31] Speaker 1: content and language might be confronting. That's because no one
[0:34] Speaker 1: who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged. Join
[0:38] Speaker 1: me now as I take you into this world. Natasha
[0:46] Speaker 1: Concealy has lived more life than most people could imagine.
[0:50] Speaker 1: She's been a stripper, lingerie model, air hostess, convicted drug dealer,
[0:56] Speaker 1: and eventually found herself in prison. It's been a wild ride,
[1:00] Speaker 1: built on tragedy early in her life. She partied hard,
[1:04] Speaker 1: made some mistakes that had big consequences. In this episode,
[1:08] Speaker 1: she speaks with me about the highs and lows of
[1:10] Speaker 1: her life, her regrets, and how she's turned her life
[1:14] Speaker 1: around and is now giving back to society. There is
[1:17] Speaker 1: a cautionary tale in the story that is worth listening to.
[1:22] Speaker 1: Natasha Kinsele. Welcome to I Catch Killers.
[1:25] Speaker 2: Thanks, Gary. Great to be here.
[1:26] Speaker 1: I got speaking to you yesterday and reading some of
[1:29] Speaker 1: the stuff that's online. You're in a good space now. Absolutely.
[1:32] Speaker 1: You feel like, I get the sense you've come like
[1:35] Speaker 1: the full circle and you've found who you are now. Yeah.
[1:38] Speaker 1: A long road, but you've got there. Yeah.
[1:40] Speaker 2: I definitely am. I've come home to myself.
[1:43] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[1:43] Speaker 2: And I've spoken about it before. I always lacked a
[1:45] Speaker 2: sense of belonging, even though it was always there.
[1:49] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[1:49] Speaker 2: But I just didn't know. what that meant and how
[1:52] Speaker 2: that felt. And now I belong within myself and it's
[1:55] Speaker 2: a beautiful space to be. I love the person I
[1:59] Speaker 2: am today and I love how she shows up in
[2:02] Speaker 2: the world. I don't berate myself for my past mistakes.
[2:05] Speaker 2: I give myself some grace and I really love all
[2:09] Speaker 2: those bits as well along the way, even though some
[2:11] Speaker 2: of them, you know, you look back and you go,
[2:14] Speaker 2: I don't really like what she did or the choices
[2:16] Speaker 2: she made, but I still embrace her as well because
[2:19] Speaker 2: she's part of me.
[2:20] Speaker 1: I've had a lot of people sit opposite here in
[2:23] Speaker 1: the studio and talk about their life and accepting who
[2:27] Speaker 1: you are. And yeah, we talk about forgiveness, but forgiving
[2:31] Speaker 1: yourself is a big, big thing, isn't it? Absolutely.
[2:34] Speaker 2: I think we are our own worst critic, all of
[2:37] Speaker 2: us within ourselves, right? People judge us regardless. We can't
[2:41] Speaker 2: do much about what other people think, but how we
[2:43] Speaker 2: view ourselves is what is so important and it changes
[2:48] Speaker 2: the way that you view the world. If you have
[2:50] Speaker 2: some kindness towards yourself and some gratitude for the things
[2:52] Speaker 2: that you do have, you know, you start to view
[2:55] Speaker 2: the world in a different light and then you start
[2:58] Speaker 2: interacting with it in a different way.
[3:00] Speaker 1: Another thing, when I was talking to you the other day,
[3:03] Speaker 1: you said when you went to jail, you realised how
[3:05] Speaker 1: privileged you were. Yes. Which is like, you know, what
[3:08] Speaker 1: did jail mean to you? And that's not the answer
[3:11] Speaker 1: I was expecting, but talk us through that, what you
[3:14] Speaker 1: meant by that.
[3:15] Speaker 2: I was almost embarrassed for the privileges and the choices
[3:20] Speaker 2: that I'd had throughout my life. I've always had choice.
[3:24] Speaker 2: I've had access to education. I've had access to travel.
[3:26] Speaker 2: I've had access to people that love me and care
[3:29] Speaker 2: for me from when I was a child all through
[3:31] Speaker 2: my adulthood, throughout my life. And the women that I
[3:36] Speaker 2: met who were incarcerated, and this is the majority of them,
[3:40] Speaker 2: were lacking either all of those things or or even
[3:44] Speaker 2: just one of them. There had never been opportunity. There
[3:47] Speaker 2: had not been a loving family. Education was not something
[3:52] Speaker 2: that was offered. If your home isn't safe, the last
[3:55] Speaker 2: thing that you're going to do is turn up at
[3:57] Speaker 2: school and get the things that you need to do
[4:00] Speaker 2: to turn it around. And I just, I always thought
[4:04] Speaker 2: that everybody had choice. Even before I went to prison
[4:07] Speaker 2: and I went to some pretty crazy places with some
[4:10] Speaker 2: pretty crazy people and saw some things. But I never
[4:14] Speaker 2: realized the disadvantage that some of us live in. And
[4:20] Speaker 2: I always believed that even they had choices. But when
[4:23] Speaker 2: it compounds and you have no other people around you,
[4:29] Speaker 2: only the ones that are all doing that, living that life,
[4:32] Speaker 2: that same system, how do you get out of it?
[4:36] Speaker 1: And it's opened my eyes up since I left the
[4:39] Speaker 1: police and seen some of the circumstances that people have
[4:42] Speaker 1: grown up in. And who are we to judge? Yes.
[4:47] Speaker 1: Everyone's got their own story. Everyone's got the things that
[4:50] Speaker 1: have impacted on their life. But it was interesting that
[4:53] Speaker 1: your experience in prison and the thing that one of
[4:56] Speaker 1: the big takeaways was how privileged you are. And it
[5:00] Speaker 1: shows a degree of empathy, which I think is a
[5:02] Speaker 1: good thing. It is. Yeah.
[5:05] Speaker 2: We've got to have empathy and even if we don't understand, right,
[5:09] Speaker 2: and we may not agree, but if we have empathy
[5:14] Speaker 2: for each other because at the end of the day,
[5:15] Speaker 2: we're all human and we all should have opportunity and
[5:19] Speaker 2: we should all have access to those simple things that
[5:22] Speaker 2: I've just said, to opportunities to choose to change, to
[5:26] Speaker 2: a safe home to grow up in, to education, to employment.
[5:31] Speaker 2: They're not privileges. I think every human being deserves access
[5:36] Speaker 2: to that. And as much as maybe, you know, some
[5:41] Speaker 2: people that have never experienced that there is a whole
[5:43] Speaker 2: nother side and it is in our country. Look, I
[5:47] Speaker 2: spent a lot of time in India as a child
[5:49] Speaker 2: and I knew what poverty meant and no access. I
[5:52] Speaker 2: understood that, but that was explained to me that it
[5:55] Speaker 2: was a third world country and they were very poor.
[5:58] Speaker 2: I didn't see Australia as being a third world country
[6:01] Speaker 2: and I still don't.
[6:02] Speaker 1: No, well, Australia doesn't see themselves as.
[6:04] Speaker 2: A third world country. But we have.
[6:06] Speaker 1: Underprivileged.
[6:06] Speaker 2: We have the same poverty. We have homeless people everywhere
[6:11] Speaker 2: and people are so... This is my opinion, right? I'm
[6:15] Speaker 2: not saying that it is right, but this is what
[6:17] Speaker 2: I've learned throughout my journey. We are taught that... We
[6:22] Speaker 2: have access and everybody does. So it's easy for us
[6:26] Speaker 2: to sit here and go, oh, well, they did something
[6:29] Speaker 2: and that's why they ended up there. It's their own fault.
[6:32] Speaker 2: They could have chosen differently.
[6:34] Speaker 1: We have got a lot to talk about. I'm going
[6:36] Speaker 1: to talk about your upbringing because I think that's very
[6:40] Speaker 1: interesting and what happened there. how you found yourself working
[6:44] Speaker 1: as a lingerie model and stripper. We've all got stories
[6:47] Speaker 1: to tell.
[6:47] Speaker 2: It was a really fun time, Gary. It was wild.
[6:51] Speaker 2: I wouldn't change that for the world.
[6:52] Speaker 1: I would describe, and I think, a wild life that
[6:56] Speaker 1: you've had, but it's always an interest because that's what
[6:59] Speaker 1: I wanted to start how you are now. There's been
[7:03] Speaker 1: a journey to get to this zen-like place. state that
[7:07] Speaker 1: you're in now and happy with the world. Your drug use,
[7:11] Speaker 1: you started off as rave parties and recreational drug use,
[7:16] Speaker 1: then it becomes an addiction. And then you ended up
[7:20] Speaker 1: dealing drugs and doing time in prison. Okay, this is
[7:24] Speaker 1: a cycle, but there is a light at the end
[7:27] Speaker 1: of the tunnel that we'll talk about. But since then
[7:30] Speaker 1: and the experience leading up to jail and, you know,
[7:34] Speaker 1: you're taking stock of your life. You've managed to turn
[7:37] Speaker 1: your life around. You're very much focusing on advocacy and
[7:41] Speaker 1: helping people and contributing back to society. So that's just
[7:45] Speaker 1: summing up your life very quickly.
[7:46] Speaker 2: That was a great sum up. I love it.
[7:49] Speaker 1: Okay. Well, now we'll see if it follows that trend. script.
[7:54] Speaker 1: Talk about your childhood, because I think, spoiler alert, traveling
[8:00] Speaker 1: around with your hippie mum in India from the age
[8:03] Speaker 1: of five to 10, I think is a pretty interesting start.
[8:06] Speaker 2: Yeah, it was pretty wild. I think even looking back
[8:10] Speaker 2: to that earlier ages in Adelaide, my parents had a
[8:13] Speaker 2: beautiful home. I was close to my grandparents, so I
[8:15] Speaker 2: had a really loving environment that I grew up in.
[8:18] Speaker 2: I had a a spirit. My mum's friends talk about
[8:21] Speaker 2: it these days and they just go, you were always
[8:23] Speaker 2: defiant and you were really wild. And it was, you
[8:26] Speaker 2: had this real kind of your way or no way
[8:30] Speaker 2: from a really young age. So I'd like to say
[8:32] Speaker 2: that my environment created me, but it didn't.
[8:36] Speaker 1: You were going to find trouble somehow.
[8:40] Speaker 2: I definitely was, regardless of how my life was going.
[8:43] Speaker 2: And I guess you know, experiencing India at a really
[8:47] Speaker 2: young age with my mom was, it was incredibly, um,
[8:52] Speaker 2: eye opening. Uh, it was beautiful. It was scary. Um,
[8:57] Speaker 2: and it was, uh, You know, we were surrounded by
[8:59] Speaker 2: lots of artistic people. We went to Goa on stage.
[9:03] Speaker 1: You were doing the, mum was on the full hippie trip. Yes, absolutely.
[9:08] Speaker 1: Around that time. Yeah. And Goa was recognised for that.
[9:11] Speaker 2: Yes, it was. And, you know, mum's friends would wear
[9:13] Speaker 2: big shells on their head and everybody had things they
[9:17] Speaker 2: were selling at the market there in Arjuna. And it
[9:19] Speaker 2: was fantastic. you know, the kids would just run wild
[9:23] Speaker 2: and parents would, you know, party all night and the
[9:26] Speaker 2: kids would be at one person's place and you kind
[9:28] Speaker 2: of were just really free.
[9:29] Speaker 1: A lot of freedom, yeah.
[9:30] Speaker 2: A lot of freedom. And then I was lucky enough
[9:34] Speaker 2: that my father was in Europe so we'd go and
[9:36] Speaker 2: visit him. They were no longer together but we would
[9:38] Speaker 2: go and visit him and mum would just work in
[9:40] Speaker 2: a jewelry studio somewhere, make some jewelry. We'd stay with
[9:45] Speaker 2: dad wherever he was living and I'd just go to
[9:47] Speaker 2: school wherever we were. So I kind of visited school
[9:50] Speaker 2: in France, Italy, Germany, Spain, all different places throughout those years.
[9:56] Speaker 1: Well, that has to shape you. It does. You'd have
[9:59] Speaker 1: to be self-sufficient in looking after yourself, meeting new people,
[10:04] Speaker 1: different languages, a whole range of things that would have
[10:08] Speaker 1: kicked in.
[10:08] Speaker 2: And I did it really well. And I think what
[10:11] Speaker 2: I learned there was to assimilate really well. which then
[10:16] Speaker 2: later on in life became a little bit, I got
[10:18] Speaker 2: lost in that rather than finding myself or being within
[10:22] Speaker 2: how comfortable who I was. Um, I would just assimilate
[10:26] Speaker 2: to whatever environment that I, I was choosing. And I'm,
[10:31] Speaker 2: later on when drugs and mental health were really bad.
[10:35] Speaker 2: That was kind of what was, I was really lost
[10:37] Speaker 2: and I didn't have that belonging.
[10:39] Speaker 1: Because you came back, was it the teenage years, Newtown
[10:43] Speaker 1: and going to the school, Newtown. So that would have
[10:46] Speaker 1: been the experience too. So going from Goa, traveling the
[10:49] Speaker 1: world and then going there. But before we talk about that,
[10:56] Speaker 1: there was a significant thing and you spoke about it.
[10:59] Speaker 1: I'm not sure if you're happy to talk about it. Absolutely.
[11:02] Speaker 1: Your mum died at the age of when you were
[11:04] Speaker 1: 10 years old in an accident in India, I believe.
[11:07] Speaker 2: We're in Goa and we're there for the season and
[11:09] Speaker 2: we're planning to go to Ibiza next and Bali and
[11:12] Speaker 2: do the whole hippie trail. And I was really sick
[11:17] Speaker 2: that day and we had a lady who rented us
[11:19] Speaker 2: the house that we were living in and she stayed
[11:22] Speaker 2: with me. Mum took longer than normal and I remember
[11:26] Speaker 2: this day like it was yesterday. I will never forget.
[11:28] Speaker 2: And I was so unwell. I had fever and that
[11:32] Speaker 2: kind of stuff but I wouldn't go back to bed
[11:33] Speaker 2: and I kept standing in the doorway and I was fretting.
[11:36] Speaker 2: And then I think it was just before sunset that
[11:39] Speaker 2: two foreigners came walking up the beach and one of
[11:41] Speaker 2: them had mum's handbag and he was wearing white and
[11:44] Speaker 2: he had blood all over his clothes. Mum had been
[11:48] Speaker 2: hit by a truck coming around her corner, blind corner,
[11:51] Speaker 2: full frontal, no helmet on, on a motorbike. So she
[11:55] Speaker 2: didn't die instantly, but would have had severe brain damage
[12:01] Speaker 2: if she had survived. Obviously, we had a big network
[12:06] Speaker 2: of people that I could then be looked after while
[12:09] Speaker 2: the police, Indian police, reached out to my grandparents because
[12:13] Speaker 2: they couldn't find dad. My grandparents then reached out to
[12:17] Speaker 2: my father and he, because they were all like, we'll
[12:20] Speaker 2: take her if you can't, because they knew that he'd
[12:23] Speaker 2: only just been settling back in Switzerland.
[12:25] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[12:27] Speaker 2: But he came and I think mum died the day
[12:30] Speaker 2: before he got to India.
[12:31] Speaker 1: Right.
[12:31] Speaker 2: And he had to tell his 10-year-old daughter, sorry, I
[12:35] Speaker 2: get emotional around this, that her mum had died. So,
[12:39] Speaker 2: and I remember he, to this day, we've got a
[12:41] Speaker 2: really great relationship, me and my dad. To this day,
[12:43] Speaker 2: he goes, you know, Natasha, I was devastated. You were
[12:47] Speaker 2: the one that hugged me and said, it's going to
[12:49] Speaker 2: be okay, Dad. We can do this.
[12:51] Speaker 1: Wow.
[12:52] Speaker 2: As a little 10-year-old girl.
[12:54] Speaker 1: Insight and to be able to step up in circumstances
[12:57] Speaker 1: like that. Look, I'm sorry that happened. That has to
[13:00] Speaker 1: have an impact on you. At the age of 10,
[13:02] Speaker 1: there's no time as a child that's good where someone
[13:05] Speaker 1: close to you dies. But to lose your mum at 10,
[13:08] Speaker 1: and I would imagine the lifestyle you were living, you
[13:12] Speaker 1: would have been inseparable.
[13:13] Speaker 2: Yes, we were.
[13:14] Speaker 1: Yeah, so that had to have a significant impact on you.
[13:19] Speaker 1: You spent time with your dad in different countries and
[13:23] Speaker 1: then you came back over here. Who were you living
[13:26] Speaker 1: with over here when you went to school at Newtown?
[13:28] Speaker 2: All right, so my mum's best friend who had a
[13:31] Speaker 2: daughter a similar age to me, they had met in
[13:35] Speaker 2: Adelaide and become really close and they always promised each
[13:39] Speaker 2: other that they would look after us girls if something
[13:43] Speaker 2: ever happened to the other. And Corrie had kept that
[13:46] Speaker 2: promise and continued to stay in touch with us in Switzerland.
[13:50] Speaker 2: And then when I said to dad, I want to
[13:51] Speaker 2: go see my grandparents and Corrie and Morgana and all that.
[13:54] Speaker 2: So I stayed with them and they said, why don't
[13:56] Speaker 2: you do a bigger trip and freshen your English and
[13:59] Speaker 2: come back and do a bit of school here and
[14:01] Speaker 2: all that. So I was, I think I was like 15,
[14:03] Speaker 2: 16 and I was angry. By this stage, because that
[14:08] Speaker 2: little girl that hugged her dad and said, everything's going
[14:11] Speaker 2: to be okay, then went, okay, I've got to make
[14:14] Speaker 2: everything okay.
[14:15] Speaker 1: Okay.
[14:17] Speaker 2: So she then, there was no grieving. There was no,
[14:23] Speaker 2: everything was always, I'm fine. And I know that they
[14:26] Speaker 2: encouraged me to see a child psychologist and all of
[14:29] Speaker 2: that in Switzerland. But I just said, I'm fine. I
[14:32] Speaker 2: don't need your help. And I literally shut everyone down.
[14:35] Speaker 2: And then my teens hit and we all know that
[14:37] Speaker 2: they're really difficult for everybody, for girls and boys. You
[14:43] Speaker 2: are changing into something different. And I couldn't manage my
[14:47] Speaker 2: own emotions. I was mad. I was really angry with
[14:51] Speaker 2: the world. And so Dad thought it might be really
[14:53] Speaker 2: good for me to go home and have some time.
[14:56] Speaker 2: I actually had a massive... falling out with my grandparents
[14:58] Speaker 2: while I was here at that age.
[15:00] Speaker 1: Were they rebellious?
[15:01] Speaker 2: Yeah, because I just was like, I'm going out, I'm partying.
[15:04] Speaker 2: I was going to clubs and they had moved from
[15:06] Speaker 2: Adelaide to the Gold Coast and I was out clubbing
[15:08] Speaker 2: at 15. I looked like I was 20, but you know.
[15:14] Speaker 1: What could possibly go wrong?
[15:16] Speaker 2: Oh, what could go wrong?
[15:16] Speaker 1: And what would your grandparents know telling you that you're
[15:19] Speaker 1: doing that?
[15:20] Speaker 2: You know, they were just trying to look out for
[15:22] Speaker 2: me and to make better choices. But I didn't want
[15:25] Speaker 2: to hear that at this stage. And I think I
[15:27] Speaker 2: was mad at them too because they had been there.
[15:30] Speaker 2: They'd always, you know, we'd spoke on the phone and
[15:33] Speaker 2: they've written me cards. But I was mad at everybody
[15:36] Speaker 2: because everyone had kind of left me because I had
[15:38] Speaker 2: went to Switzerland with Dad, but obviously that thinking.
[15:42] Speaker 1: Your anger could have been directed in all sorts of ways.
[15:44] Speaker 2: It was.
[15:44] Speaker 1: And you probably didn't even know what the anger was about. No,
[15:46] Speaker 1: I was. But you're just angry. And I understand what
[15:49] Speaker 1: you're saying. You've been the strong one but not looking
[15:52] Speaker 1: after yourself and, you know, supporting your dad at 10.
[15:55] Speaker 1: So you had to grow up really, really quickly at
[15:57] Speaker 1: that age when you're going to be the strong person.
[16:00] Speaker 1: So it's all, you know, if we're marking it out,
[16:04] Speaker 1: you can see, okay, something could go wrong here. Yeah.
[16:09] Speaker 1: You started to get into rave parties and the.
[16:13] Speaker 2: That's when I got back to Switzerland. Right. So I
[16:16] Speaker 2: kind of floated around, lost for a bit. I started
[16:20] Speaker 2: an apprenticeship as a tailor, but I didn't like sitting
[16:23] Speaker 2: in a room sewing every day. So I said, Dad,
[16:25] Speaker 2: I don't really want to do this. Because I said
[16:27] Speaker 2: to him when I got back, I said, I don't
[16:28] Speaker 2: want to live in Switzerland. I want to go back
[16:30] Speaker 2: to Australia. And his one condition was, because I had
[16:33] Speaker 2: like with my step-mom and there'd been all these different
[16:36] Speaker 2: troubles and I won't go into it. But at the
[16:38] Speaker 2: end of the day, dad always supported me, but he
[16:40] Speaker 2: had certain things that he just went, I may not
[16:43] Speaker 2: agree with what you're doing or I don't really like it,
[16:46] Speaker 2: but this is the one condition I really will expect
[16:49] Speaker 2: from you. You finished school, you didn't like it. I
[16:52] Speaker 2: want you to get some kind of trade, something, an
[16:54] Speaker 2: apprenticeship or something. So that was kind of what I
[16:58] Speaker 2: was working towards. I had no idea what I wanted
[17:00] Speaker 2: to do. I was under the impression that You had
[17:03] Speaker 2: to choose a career and then do that for the
[17:05] Speaker 2: rest of your life.
[17:05] Speaker 1: Well, that was the time, wasn't it? That was back
[17:07] Speaker 1: then it.
[17:08] Speaker 2: Was, yeah, the case. Like we're talking late 80s, early 90s,
[17:13] Speaker 2: around that time. So I tried a lot of different
[17:16] Speaker 2: things and then I kind of fell into catering with
[17:21] Speaker 2: a group of girls and they'd do these great events
[17:25] Speaker 2: and I loved the women that I was working with.
[17:27] Speaker 2: And then I kind of went, I'm really good at this.
[17:30] Speaker 2: I'm really organized and that kind of stuff. So I
[17:32] Speaker 2: ended up doing an apprenticeship in a hotel.
[17:34] Speaker 1: Hospitality.
[17:35] Speaker 2: Yeah, hospitality, housekeeping side of things. And it's really well
[17:38] Speaker 2: paid and it's really great job in Switzerland. And so
[17:42] Speaker 2: that was two years. And in the meantime, I was
[17:44] Speaker 2: going out, I was raving. I met people who owned
[17:47] Speaker 2: clubs in Zurich and just fell into that scene. And
[17:51] Speaker 2: I loved the wildness of it. I loved the creativity
[17:54] Speaker 2: of DJs and how they made music.
[17:57] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[17:57] Speaker 2: My boyfriend at the time was a DJ and he'd
[17:59] Speaker 2: teach me a little bit and I was like, oh,
[18:01] Speaker 2: maybe I'll be a DJ.
[18:02] Speaker 1: Oh, you would have been rocking at that stage. Yes.
[18:06] Speaker 2: And it was the days of, you know, they'd just
[18:09] Speaker 2: started so the party wasn't just on Saturday night. You
[18:12] Speaker 2: had the after hour that started at 6 a.m. on
[18:15] Speaker 2: Sunday and that was the club that my friends owned.
[18:17] Speaker 2: So I kind of worked there as well on the weekends,
[18:20] Speaker 2: partied all weekend and it was– If I think back now, right,
[18:24] Speaker 2: and this is my introduction to drugs, was you read
[18:28] Speaker 2: a book about what the effects were going to be.
[18:30] Speaker 2: You informed yourself and you took clean drugs where you
[18:33] Speaker 2: knew where they came from with a bunch of safe people.
[18:37] Speaker 2: That's how I was introduced to drug taking. And it
[18:39] Speaker 2: was something that you did recreationally. It's not something that
[18:42] Speaker 2: you then relied on. So that was my whole impression around.
[18:45] Speaker 2: I always thought that everybody that was taking drugs would
[18:48] Speaker 2: do it safely, right?
[18:49] Speaker 1: In that environment, and yeah, we talk drugs and there's
[18:52] Speaker 1: a cautionary tale in this how people can fall into it.
[18:56] Speaker 1: It doesn't look like it's a dirty drug lab. It's
[19:00] Speaker 1: out with the cool people. You feel like you found
[19:03] Speaker 1: the meaning of life here. What are these straighties doing?
[19:06] Speaker 1: Look what I've found. Exactly. They have no idea how
[19:08] Speaker 1: good life is. So you can fall into that so easily.
[19:13] Speaker 2: And also my whole upbringing, right? Goa, hippies, pot, drugs,
[19:17] Speaker 2: parties for days. It was all normal. It was never–
[19:21] Speaker 2: I was never told, oh, drugs are bad.
[19:23] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[19:23] Speaker 2: I was told maybe be really smart in how you
[19:26] Speaker 2: choose to take drugs and who you take them with
[19:28] Speaker 2: and where they come from.
[19:29] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[19:30] Speaker 2: Right? So those were maybe the cautionary tales that I
[19:33] Speaker 2: was told around that stuff. And I was allowed to
[19:35] Speaker 2: make my own decisions, whether people were– like my dad
[19:39] Speaker 2: didn't agree with a lot of decisions that I made
[19:41] Speaker 2: in life, but he said, look, Tash, I'll always be
[19:44] Speaker 2: here for you. So I had that safe person that
[19:47] Speaker 2: even if I had of, you know, I'm going to
[19:49] Speaker 2: say if I committed murder, I could have gone home
[19:52] Speaker 2: and gone, Dad, help me. You know, he wouldn't have
[19:54] Speaker 2: turned me away.
[19:55] Speaker 1: I think from a parenting point of view, that's probably
[19:58] Speaker 1: the best you can do with that. Because if he said, no,
[20:01] Speaker 1: don't do that, that would have been a falling out
[20:04] Speaker 1: and would have lost the connection.
[20:06] Speaker 2: Because I would have done it anyway, which I did.
[20:08] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[20:10] Speaker 2: I did everything that people told me maybe not to do.
[20:13] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[20:13] Speaker 2: I was like, oh, just go and try that. That
[20:15] Speaker 2: looks really bad and interesting. So, yeah.
[20:17] Speaker 1: Yeah. So, if he took a harder line, you probably
[20:20] Speaker 1: would have gone harder yourself. Yeah. Okay. Take it to
[20:22] Speaker 1: the extreme. So, that was overseas. Yeah. The rave party
[20:28] Speaker 1: and that. When did you come back over here?
[20:30] Speaker 2: So, I finished my apprenticeship in– 1996. And I was like, okay,
[20:36] Speaker 2: I'm moving back to Australia. See you later. Dumped my
[20:38] Speaker 2: poor boyfriend who was, I think he thought we were
[20:40] Speaker 2: going to get married and raise a family, which was never.
[20:44] Speaker 1: Do you feel bad about that now?
[20:47] Speaker 2: Maybe just about how it happened.
[20:48] Speaker 1: Okay.
[20:49] Speaker 2: But not really because he was actually a really nice guy. Yeah, yeah.
[20:52] Speaker 2: But I wasn't the best girlfriend in the world. I
[20:54] Speaker 2: was just wild.
[20:55] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[20:56] Speaker 2: So that was kind of a blessing in disguise for him,
[20:59] Speaker 2: I guess.
[20:59] Speaker 1: He dodged the bullet there.
[21:00] Speaker 2: Yeah, I think he did.
[21:01] Speaker 1: Okay.
[21:02] Speaker 2: And then I was like, okay, well, I want to
[21:03] Speaker 2: travel first. So me and my girlfriend went and did
[21:06] Speaker 2: a tour of Indonesia on my way over. I was so–
[21:13] Speaker 2: Not even, I wouldn't call it hungover. I just hadn't
[21:15] Speaker 2: slept for about three months before I left, right?
[21:18] Speaker 1: So I was. But from the rave scene.
[21:20] Speaker 2: Yeah, from partying because I knew I was leaving, so
[21:22] Speaker 2: I was just let's go, right? And I got to
[21:26] Speaker 2: Indonesia and I was just like. And then I got
[21:29] Speaker 2: to Australia and life was really quiet because obviously I
[21:33] Speaker 2: didn't know that many people. I had to reestablish where
[21:37] Speaker 2: I was going to be, where I fit in. My Morgana,
[21:40] Speaker 2: who I call my sister, Corrie's daughter, I moved in
[21:43] Speaker 2: with her and her partner in Alexandria and they were,
[21:47] Speaker 2: you know, into the music scene. They both played in
[21:49] Speaker 2: bands and so I'd go along to all of that,
[21:52] Speaker 2: but it wasn't really my scene. Anyway, so one of
[21:55] Speaker 2: the boys I met there, his sister was in Bad
[21:58] Speaker 2: Girls Australia. It was one of those touring national striptease shows.
[22:02] Speaker 2: And he goes, have you thought about doing some lingerie waitressing?
[22:05] Speaker 2: It'd be amazing. I go, what the hell is lingerie waitressing, right?
[22:09] Speaker 1: I'm like, what?
[22:10] Speaker 2: I'm from Switzerland. I don't know what this is. And
[22:12] Speaker 2: he goes, oh, you just put your knickers on and
[22:13] Speaker 2: go walk around the pub and serve some beers.
[22:16] Speaker 1: Very Australian.
[22:17] Speaker 2: And I'm like, yes, I found my calling. It was
[22:20] Speaker 2: the best. I made more tips in one day in
[22:24] Speaker 2: those pubs than I had a whole week's wage.
[22:27] Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. Right?
[22:28] Speaker 2: And it was– the 90s. It was pumping. It was everywhere.
[22:32] Speaker 1: With the Bad Girls, were they all based in Sydney
[22:35] Speaker 1: or were you touring or?
[22:36] Speaker 2: No, I didn't join the Bad Girls. That was his sister.
[22:39] Speaker 2: So that's why he had connections to the agencies.
[22:42] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[22:43] Speaker 2: So that was all in Sydney at this point. And
[22:46] Speaker 2: then I saw my first striptease show where I'm still
[22:50] Speaker 2: friends with this girl and she just had legs up
[22:53] Speaker 2: to here and had this amazing costume on. The music
[22:58] Speaker 2: was great. The show, the dancing was amazing. And I
[23:01] Speaker 2: just went, oh my God, that's what I want to do.
[23:04] Speaker 2: So I just fell in love with that. And then
[23:06] Speaker 2: I met the lady who ran Fever Productions, Diane, and
[23:09] Speaker 2: she taught me how to dance. So I had done
[23:13] Speaker 2: dancing before when I was younger, but taught me the
[23:16] Speaker 2: art of striptease, right? And so then I toured with
[23:20] Speaker 2: her all around Australia and just loved the freedom of
[23:24] Speaker 2: it all. the girls, the friendships that I built.
[23:30] Speaker 1: So just on you, you were comfortable with it? Yeah, absolutely.
[23:34] Speaker 1: Have I compromised myself or is there something that, yeah,
[23:38] Speaker 1: this wasn't what I expected I'd be doing in life?
[23:40] Speaker 1: But when you're talking about it, I see the smile
[23:43] Speaker 1: on your face and you think, well, it was a
[23:44] Speaker 1: good time.
[23:45] Speaker 2: It was a really good time. I found myself a
[23:48] Speaker 2: little bit in there. It gave me some confidence back.
[23:52] Speaker 2: around my body and who I was as a woman. Uh,
[23:56] Speaker 2: it also allowed me to have really, I always had
[23:59] Speaker 2: really clear boundaries, but you know, there was no touching
[24:02] Speaker 2: involved and there was, I'm not saying there's anything wrong
[24:04] Speaker 2: with being a sex worker, but that wasn't where this
[24:07] Speaker 2: was ever going to go. So there was really clear,
[24:09] Speaker 2: you know, rules around it. I would either have a
[24:13] Speaker 2: driver with me or at private parties or no one
[24:17] Speaker 2: really effed with me anyway. I just kind of have.
[24:20] Speaker 1: You got that. Yeah. Don't fuck with me.
[24:22] Speaker 2: Yes, pretty much.
[24:23] Speaker 1: Attitude. And I suppose the worldly upbringing that you had,
[24:27] Speaker 1: you would know how to manage yourself around situations. With it, did,
[24:33] Speaker 1: because I've spoken to a number of people, I know
[24:36] Speaker 1: girls that have worked in the industry and, you know,
[24:40] Speaker 1: the public perception is, but it's demeaning, it's this and that.
[24:43] Speaker 1: But then I've had girls say, it's quite empowering.
[24:46] Speaker 2: It's extremely empowering.
[24:47] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[24:48] Speaker 2: And it's about accepting the fact that, you know, and
[24:55] Speaker 2: I don't want to sound sexist saying this in a way.
[24:58] Speaker 1: Give it to the blokes.
[25:00] Speaker 2: Give it to the blokes. I'm sorry, but if you're
[25:02] Speaker 2: going to pull out money to look at me taking
[25:06] Speaker 2: my clothes off, I'm going to take that money, right? Yeah.
[25:08] Speaker 2: That's on you.
[25:09] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[25:10] Speaker 2: And, you know, you know the rules.
[25:12] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[25:13] Speaker 2: If that's what makes you happy, that's great.
[25:16] Speaker 1: I get it. Look, I think the blokes should be
[25:19] Speaker 1: criticised and they'll probably go, I don't care.
[25:22] Speaker 2: And that's okay too.
[25:23] Speaker 1: But, yeah, because I think it's interesting discussing it with
[25:26] Speaker 1: people that have just got a little bit of different
[25:29] Speaker 1: perspective on it. It's not from the straighty 180 view of, no,
[25:32] Speaker 1: this is wrong, it's morally wrong. And do you know what?
[25:35] Speaker 2: To some people it might be wrong.
[25:36] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[25:37] Speaker 2: And that's okay. You're allowed to have that opinion. But
[25:40] Speaker 2: to me it gave me freedom. I earned a lot
[25:42] Speaker 2: of money doing that. And I traveled regularly. It gave
[25:46] Speaker 2: me the possibility to buy whatever I wanted to, to
[25:51] Speaker 2: go to the place, to go back and see my
[25:52] Speaker 2: dad in Switzerland, to have the freedom to leave the
[25:55] Speaker 2: bad relationships that I chose. Because, you know, I wasn't
[26:01] Speaker 2: doing that job and having a relationship doesn't work either.
[26:03] Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah.
[26:04] Speaker 2: Who wants their girlfriend to be looked at every day
[26:08] Speaker 2: by the men when they're naked, right? Fair enough. Even
[26:11] Speaker 2: if there is nothing else happening, I don't think that's
[26:13] Speaker 2: fair either to expect that from somebody. But I choose
[26:16] Speaker 2: really damaged relationships anyway. If I didn't have that money
[26:21] Speaker 2: that I earned from dancing, I would have been stuck there.
[26:24] Speaker 1: Okay. So empowered in that it's your choice. No one
[26:28] Speaker 1: is forcing you to do it. And it gives you
[26:30] Speaker 1: the independence to make life choices and live life on
[26:35] Speaker 1: your terms. I suppose that's the way of putting it.
[26:38] Speaker 1: So you didn't, and we just touched on it briefly,
[26:40] Speaker 1: you didn't find yourself in any difficult situations, like occupational
[26:46] Speaker 1: health and safety is not big. in that environment.
[26:49] Speaker 2: I did slip over on stage a couple of times.
[26:53] Speaker 2: Maybe was a bit drunk or, yeah, a bit high,
[26:55] Speaker 2: who knows. But, yeah, a bit wet on the floor
[26:57] Speaker 2: when you've been doing like a bath show or something. So, yeah,
[27:00] Speaker 2: stuff like that happened. But I never– I know that
[27:03] Speaker 2: there were some women that found themselves in some really
[27:05] Speaker 2: horrible situations and I'm not saying that it was a
[27:07] Speaker 2: safe profession at all. But like I said, for me
[27:11] Speaker 2: in general in life, I have thought about consequences differently
[27:14] Speaker 2: Not until they happened.
[27:15] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[27:16] Speaker 2: So for me, it wasn't about that. And I always
[27:18] Speaker 2: felt safe. And when I didn't, I'd leave.
[27:20] Speaker 1: Right, right. I would imagine some of the gigs would
[27:23] Speaker 1: be bikey clubhouses, that type of thing, or end of
[27:27] Speaker 1: year football, Bucks nights.
[27:30] Speaker 2: Actually, the bikey clubhouses were the safest place to go.
[27:33] Speaker 1: Yeah, that's interesting.
[27:34] Speaker 2: Yes, because you were looked after. And you were a
[27:38] Speaker 2: house guest and you performed and they made sure that
[27:41] Speaker 2: all their patrons and whatever respected you and treated you
[27:44] Speaker 2: well and didn't. And they always encouraged you to stay
[27:47] Speaker 2: back and have a drink and they would just, you know,
[27:49] Speaker 2: you were just really looked after. I've got to be
[27:51] Speaker 2: really honest about it, yeah.
[27:53] Speaker 1: Okay. No, that's, again, an interesting take on it. And
[27:57] Speaker 1: I understand what you're saying 100% because if someone misbehaved,
[28:01] Speaker 1: they'd get dropped on the spot. Yeah.
[28:03] Speaker 2: And this is my experience, right? I can't speak for
[28:06] Speaker 2: anybody else's experiences. And I know some of my girlfriends
[28:09] Speaker 2: had totally different experiences and some of them, you know,
[28:15] Speaker 2: were sexually assaulted at different places. I'm not saying by clubs,
[28:18] Speaker 2: I'm saying just at shows and things happened to them
[28:21] Speaker 2: that were really horrific. And I'm, you know, I, again,
[28:25] Speaker 2: I feel really blessed around my life that The choices
[28:28] Speaker 2: that I made and some of the situations, probably something
[28:31] Speaker 2: should have happened because it wasn't safe that I put
[28:34] Speaker 2: myself in, but it didn't. So I'm really, really, yeah,
[28:37] Speaker 2: I look back and go, I'm grateful.
[28:40] Speaker 1: Well, it's, yeah, different environments. And when you mix alcohol and, yeah,
[28:45] Speaker 1: a group of idiot blokes together, I would imagine the
[28:47] Speaker 1: suburban bucks parties would be a greater risk or even, yeah,
[28:51] Speaker 1: the entitled party. Accountants from the big end of the
[28:54] Speaker 1: city were throwing money around. I would imagine that causes problems.
[28:58] Speaker 2: And, you know, when I sit here now and I
[29:01] Speaker 2: look at that girl and the profit I got from
[29:05] Speaker 2: that kind of space and some of the behaviours that
[29:09] Speaker 2: were presented by males there. Yeah. I'd find them unacceptable
[29:13] Speaker 2: today in any way, shape or form. Some of the
[29:16] Speaker 2: things that I found acceptable that were said to me
[29:19] Speaker 2: from blokes or other girls or whatever it was, today
[29:23] Speaker 2: that stuff matters to me.
[29:25] Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah.
[29:25] Speaker 2: You know, so I think it's all about where you're at.
[29:29] Speaker 1: Because you've changed or society's changed or a combination of both.
[29:33] Speaker 2: No, because I have changed.
[29:34] Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah.
[29:34] Speaker 2: Because before I was friends with men that bashed their girlfriends, right? Yeah, yeah.
[29:42] Speaker 2: I was friends with men that. you know, probably spoke
[29:46] Speaker 2: to me in a way that was inappropriate.
[29:48] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[29:48] Speaker 2: But there was other parts of them that I loved.
[29:51] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[29:51] Speaker 2: Today I wouldn't accept that.
[29:53] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[29:53] Speaker 2: And it was the same, and today I also wouldn't
[29:55] Speaker 2: accept to be in a relationship where someone would verbally
[29:59] Speaker 2: or physically try and abuse me. That would be, you know,
[30:02] Speaker 2: even before I got there, those red flags, I'd notice them.
[30:06] Speaker 2: But back then, I guess things were a little bit different,
[30:09] Speaker 2: but I don't think from a being safe and a
[30:12] Speaker 2: woman's perspective, that it's ever been okay for men or
[30:19] Speaker 2: women as well who execute that power that they have
[30:23] Speaker 2: over somebody else.
[30:24] Speaker 1: Well, you're talking in that line of work too, the
[30:27] Speaker 1: disrespect that could be thrown. And, yeah, I don't think
[30:31] Speaker 1: anyone or anyone that I respect would feel comfortable with
[30:35] Speaker 1: regardless of the work. Yeah, you still need to treat
[30:38] Speaker 1: people with respect. Absolutely. Yeah. you're performing, you're doing this
[30:42] Speaker 1: and that, but there is a line that should be, uh,
[30:45] Speaker 1: should always be there. Society's changed a little bit too now.
[30:49] Speaker 1: Like I, yeah, it was nothing to walk into a
[30:52] Speaker 1: pub and the, you know, Thursday afternoon, topless bar mates
[30:55] Speaker 1: and that, you know, just a local, local hotel. And that,
[30:58] Speaker 1: that was the, uh, and you didn't bat an eyelid.
[31:01] Speaker 2: No, it was just normal and it was okay. And
[31:03] Speaker 2: I guess, you know, um, I remember like kind of
[31:09] Speaker 2: finished up dancing around the time that mobile phones came into.
[31:13] Speaker 1: Yeah, that would have changed.
[31:14] Speaker 2: So mobile phones changed everything. So next minute.
[31:16] Speaker 1: I hadn't thought of that.
[31:17] Speaker 2: Before it was just cameras, right? So then they had
[31:19] Speaker 2: to go and get developed and you'd end up in
[31:21] Speaker 2: someone's box party photos.
[31:22] Speaker 1: Who cares?
[31:23] Speaker 2: Yeah. But next minute, the girls were having to combat
[31:27] Speaker 2: being all over social media.
[31:28] Speaker 1: Yes.
[31:29] Speaker 2: Right? In positions you don't really, like if you're doing
[31:32] Speaker 2: a little twirl and then doing a leg spread, it's okay.
[31:35] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[31:36] Speaker 2: Having that forever on somebody's social media and then the
[31:39] Speaker 2: comments that come from that, I think it changed everything.
[31:43] Speaker 2: But it also, I think the whole online, being able
[31:48] Speaker 2: to do online striptease and all of that just changed
[31:51] Speaker 2: and took that out of parts. And equality as well,
[31:54] Speaker 2: I guess, in a way. Like women don't want to
[31:56] Speaker 2: walk into a pub and see a girl walking around
[31:58] Speaker 2: with her tits out.
[31:59] Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah.
[32:00] Speaker 2: So that kind of, yeah, it's a bit of both.
[32:02] Speaker 1: Okay, so I hadn't even thought from the mobile phones,
[32:06] Speaker 1: but yeah, that would have changed it completely.
[32:08] Speaker 2: I'm so glad that throughout all my teenage and 20s,
[32:13] Speaker 2: there was.
[32:13] Speaker 1: No mobile phones. We'd all be stuffed, wouldn't we?
[32:15] Speaker 2: I'd be absolutely stuffed. I would have gone to jail
[32:18] Speaker 2: a lot earlier, I reckon.
[32:21] Speaker 1: Okay. So how long were you stripping?
[32:26] Speaker 2: I did about 10 years.
[32:27] Speaker 1: Yeah? Okay. So that was a long career and you
[32:32] Speaker 1: made money out of it?
[32:33] Speaker 2: I did. I spent it all. Don't get me wrong. Okay.
[32:35] Speaker 2: I never really, back in the past, never really believed
[32:39] Speaker 2: in tomorrow. Yeah. It was always today and that's it. Yeah.
[32:43] Speaker 2: And I think there was a part of me also
[32:45] Speaker 2: that didn't really want tomorrow, like always that little girl.
[32:48] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[32:49] Speaker 2: Not that I wanted to end my life or anything
[32:51] Speaker 2: like that.
[32:52] Speaker 1: No, but there was a recklessness in the way that
[32:55] Speaker 1: you went about things.
[32:56] Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely. And if it was wrong or somebody in
[33:01] Speaker 2: society went, we don't like that, I'd go, oh, I
[33:04] Speaker 2: like that. So it was that rebel that continued to happen.
[33:09] Speaker 2: And then I kind of just fell into when you're
[33:11] Speaker 2: living in that space, they're the people that you're around
[33:14] Speaker 2: all the time. So you're not really exposed to– other people.
[33:18] Speaker 2: So that becomes normal, right?
[33:21] Speaker 1: You make a good point there because it's the environment
[33:23] Speaker 1: that you're hanging out in. If they're not judging you, well,
[33:27] Speaker 1: these are my friends. And so I did that. Well,
[33:29] Speaker 1: no one bats an eyelid.
[33:30] Speaker 2: It didn't matter, right? Because everybody was kind of, all
[33:33] Speaker 2: of us girls were in that industry and the ones
[33:35] Speaker 2: that didn't, they didn't judge us. We would go out
[33:37] Speaker 2: clubbing together. The red carpet got rolled out. You were
[33:41] Speaker 2: a bit of a superstar back then. And we were
[33:44] Speaker 2: and we had– it was great, you know.
[33:47] Speaker 1: I can see the fun that you would have had then.
[33:52] Speaker 1: When did drugs start to become a bigger part in
[33:55] Speaker 1: your life? Did you ever get to the point with
[33:57] Speaker 1: dependency on it? And I know that can be a
[34:01] Speaker 1: slow creep.
[34:02] Speaker 2: Not until really much, much later in life. Throughout all
[34:05] Speaker 2: of that, I think I always– so I've always had
[34:09] Speaker 2: this thing that I do when things got hard, I'd run.
[34:12] Speaker 2: So I'd just pack up and go somewhere else.
[34:14] Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah.
[34:16] Speaker 2: I'd go, oh, I didn't like that or that was
[34:18] Speaker 2: a bit. So I'd either go back to Switzerland or
[34:20] Speaker 2: I'd move state, one or the other.
[34:22] Speaker 1: Just on that, and I want to continue the story, but.
[34:26] Speaker 1: Do you identify as Australian or you look at the
[34:29] Speaker 1: world as your home?
[34:31] Speaker 2: I'm a child of the world, but I love Australia.
[34:34] Speaker 2: I've always come back to Australia.
[34:35] Speaker 1: You feel your roots are here in Australia.
[34:37] Speaker 2: I mean, if we're going from a passport point of view,
[34:41] Speaker 2: I've got a Swiss and an Australian passport, so I'm
[34:43] Speaker 2: half Swiss, half Australian, really. But I feel like the
[34:47] Speaker 2: world is my home. I don't see we're all human
[34:51] Speaker 2: beings on this planet. We may look a little bit
[34:53] Speaker 2: different or live in a different area, but Well, that's.
[34:56] Speaker 1: A good byproduct of your upbringing, I would suggest. I
[34:58] Speaker 1: think so. It's a good attitude. It took me a
[35:01] Speaker 1: while to get there, though. You were talking about running away. Oh, yes.
[35:06] Speaker 2: So things would get difficult and I'd just move. And
[35:10] Speaker 2: I think when things got a little bit messy and
[35:13] Speaker 2: I was maybe partying a bit too much, and then
[35:17] Speaker 2: what happens when you party too much is things get
[35:19] Speaker 2: out of– they're just not– reality's not right anymore, right?
[35:24] Speaker 2: So things are out of context and you hang out
[35:26] Speaker 2: with people that are either traumatised, partying too hard, not
[35:31] Speaker 2: looking after themselves, all that kind of stuff, and things
[35:33] Speaker 2: get a bit pear-shaped. So I'd usually just pack up
[35:36] Speaker 2: and I'd go, I'm not doing well right now, or
[35:40] Speaker 2: I'd go and see Corrie or my sister.
[35:42] Speaker 1: They were your stable base.
[35:43] Speaker 2: They were my stable base or my grandparents. I'd go
[35:46] Speaker 2: to Queensland and my mum's youngest brother lived with my
[35:50] Speaker 2: grandparents for a really long time. And he would, you know,
[35:53] Speaker 2: he'd go, Tashi, you know, pull it up. Or, are
[35:58] Speaker 2: you okay? That was usually what would set me off.
[36:01] Speaker 2: If somebody went, are you okay? And I'd go, if
[36:04] Speaker 2: they're asking me, I'm probably not.
[36:06] Speaker 1: That's very insightful.
[36:09] Speaker 2: Insight has never been a problem. It's been denial around,
[36:13] Speaker 2: you know, looking outside of yourself and for what is wrong,
[36:17] Speaker 2: the people, the drugs, the environment, the job you're doing,
[36:23] Speaker 2: whatever it is. And we like to do that, right?
[36:27] Speaker 2: But the only or the relationship that you don't have
[36:30] Speaker 2: or the bad relationships that you keep choosing and we
[36:34] Speaker 2: look there for the solution to whatever is missing inside
[36:38] Speaker 2: and that's just not where it is. And it's almost
[36:41] Speaker 2: like you– When you move so many times as I
[36:45] Speaker 2: do and have that many different environments, you wear different
[36:48] Speaker 2: masks and you get so lost in all of them.
[36:51] Speaker 1: There's a freedom that if you do keep moving, like
[36:55] Speaker 1: some people grow up in one area and that's their
[36:57] Speaker 1: life and they can't reinvent themselves because everyone knows who
[37:00] Speaker 1: they are. But if you do move around a lot,
[37:03] Speaker 1: you can reinvent yourself. Absolutely. You can come in as
[37:07] Speaker 1: a different person.
[37:08] Speaker 2: You can and you can assimilate to the people that
[37:10] Speaker 2: you're hanging around. Yeah. But when you run away …
[37:13] Speaker 2: You go with you, right? So it only lasts for
[37:17] Speaker 2: a short period of time.
[37:18] Speaker 1: And then you show your real self.
[37:20] Speaker 2: Yeah, or it's not even showing your real self. It's
[37:22] Speaker 2: people get close. And that was always an issue for
[37:25] Speaker 2: me when people got too close to I'd run because
[37:29] Speaker 2: I was fearful of losing them. It makes no sense.
[37:32] Speaker 1: Well, I'm not a psychologist, but I think losing your
[37:36] Speaker 1: mother in the circumstances, you described that sense of abandonment
[37:39] Speaker 1: might play a part in it. Absolutely, it did. That
[37:42] Speaker 1: I don't want to love too much because I might
[37:44] Speaker 1: lose it.
[37:44] Speaker 2: Absolutely, it did. And I was really opinionated around things
[37:47] Speaker 2: like that. From a very young age, I'd go, well,
[37:49] Speaker 2: I'm never going to have children because what if something
[37:52] Speaker 2: happens to me and they end up like me? I'm
[37:55] Speaker 2: never going to. love somebody completely or stay with them
[37:58] Speaker 2: because what if they leave me?
[37:59] Speaker 1: Right.
[38:00] Speaker 2: There was those, I taught myself that stuff. They didn't
[38:03] Speaker 2: come from outside of me. And then I'd forgotten about it.
[38:06] Speaker 2: But the girl that was trying to belong somewhere was
[38:11] Speaker 2: always then acting when things got difficult from that space,
[38:16] Speaker 2: from that fear. So yeah.
[38:18] Speaker 1: I'm out of here. Yeah.
[38:20] Speaker 2: I'm out of here. And so my My drug use
[38:22] Speaker 2: would then stop, right? So I'd go wherever I went
[38:25] Speaker 2: and wherever I was going, I'd stop for a while.
[38:27] Speaker 2: I'd kind of, you know, get my shit together and
[38:30] Speaker 2: I'd find another job or do whatever it is that
[38:32] Speaker 2: I was doing. So no, drugs didn't become that massive,
[38:38] Speaker 2: have that massive impact, not until much later.
[38:41] Speaker 1: Okay, and if you were working as a stripper for
[38:43] Speaker 1: 10 years, drugs would have been readily available if you
[38:47] Speaker 1: needed it. So it wasn't sort of you struggled to
[38:50] Speaker 1: get it.
[38:50] Speaker 2: And I always had them around me. It was the
[38:52] Speaker 2: people that I chose to be around. And not even consciously,
[38:55] Speaker 2: it was almost like this is okay. They know what
[38:58] Speaker 2: they're doing. That's where I'll be friends.
[39:00] Speaker 1: I see people when I talk to people who had
[39:06] Speaker 1: real impact on their addiction to drugs and all that,
[39:10] Speaker 1: It appears to be at some point in time you
[39:13] Speaker 1: think you got it in control, got it in control,
[39:15] Speaker 1: I can step away. But then it dawns on you
[39:18] Speaker 1: or the realization that it's got me. I'm an addict.
[39:22] Speaker 1: Did you get to that point?
[39:25] Speaker 2: Not an addict. It was a choice to just take
[39:28] Speaker 2: drugs and give up on everything else. And this is
[39:33] Speaker 2: one of the times where I have to give myself
[39:34] Speaker 2: a lot of grace and go, what were you thinking?
[39:37] Speaker 1: Yeah. Right?
[39:38] Speaker 2: And I was in my 40s when I did that.
[39:40] Speaker 2: And I was mentally really unwell. I had ideas about
[39:47] Speaker 2: why my life was so broken.
[39:49] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[39:49] Speaker 2: Was all outside of me and I was taking no
[39:52] Speaker 2: responsibility whatsoever. And so then I went, okay, well, I'm
[39:55] Speaker 2: really good at taking drugs and I'm really good at
[39:57] Speaker 2: selling drugs and doing all of that stuff that goes
[40:01] Speaker 2: with it. So that's what I'm going to do.
[40:02] Speaker 1: When did you– you worked as an airline steward as well. Yeah,
[40:07] Speaker 1: I did. When did that fit into?
[40:09] Speaker 2: Okay, so 10 years dancing, ended up in Darwin, had
[40:15] Speaker 2: a little personal training business, bought a unit. had settled
[40:18] Speaker 2: in up there, living a good life and loved it
[40:22] Speaker 2: up there.
[40:22] Speaker 1: Darwin's a great place. It was so cool.
[40:25] Speaker 2: The first time I went to Darwin was 1999 and
[40:28] Speaker 2: it was just wild and it just filled my little
[40:31] Speaker 2: heart with so much joy and I've still got lifelong
[40:34] Speaker 2: friends that live there. Darwin was safe for me. I
[40:37] Speaker 2: could be as crazy as I wanted to be.
[40:41] Speaker 1: No one would notice in Darwin.
[40:42] Speaker 2: No, but they'd also look after me. I knew everybody
[40:45] Speaker 2: there and the clubs and all that and the bouncers
[40:47] Speaker 2: and that hole and the Hells Angels and all of
[40:50] Speaker 2: that kind of stuff. So that town became my playground,
[40:53] Speaker 2: which was in ways it just increased my bad behaviour.
[40:58] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[40:59] Speaker 2: But I then also turned my life around and went, okay,
[41:02] Speaker 2: I'm going to stop this. I'm going to stop dancing.
[41:04] Speaker 2: I'm going to stop engaging in all of this and
[41:08] Speaker 2: I'm going to go and do something different. So I
[41:10] Speaker 2: set up a personal training business. I've always trained all
[41:14] Speaker 2: my life, so for me, That kind of worked really well.
[41:19] Speaker 2: And then bought a unit and settled in and then went, oh,
[41:23] Speaker 2: my God, I can't sustain my lifestyle with just this
[41:27] Speaker 2: business and the unit and all that kind of stuff.
[41:30] Speaker 2: So I went, I'm just going to apply for Jetstar.
[41:31] Speaker 2: So they moved up there. So I went through the
[41:35] Speaker 2: application process, was successful. I had earlier on in life
[41:40] Speaker 2: tried Qantas.
[41:41] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[41:42] Speaker 2: But I had no idea what I was doing and
[41:43] Speaker 2: it wasn't successful. So it had always been something that
[41:46] Speaker 2: I wanted to do.
[41:46] Speaker 1: In the back of your mind. Yeah.
[41:48] Speaker 2: Loved travelling. So I ended up cabin crew for 12 months,
[41:52] Speaker 2: then cabin manager. And then things in Darwin got really
[41:57] Speaker 2: toxic for me with my ex and things were just messy.
[42:01] Speaker 2: And I was being really self-destructive and it wasn't– Didn't
[42:05] Speaker 2: like it and I could see the behaviour. So I
[42:07] Speaker 2: was like, okay, what can I do? And a position
[42:09] Speaker 2: on the Gold Coast with Jets I came up. So
[42:12] Speaker 2: I transferred.
[42:13] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[42:14] Speaker 2: Applied for it, got the position as a cabin crew
[42:16] Speaker 2: manager and transferred. Moved in with my grandparents or my
[42:21] Speaker 2: grandmother at this point. Pop had passed and my uncle
[42:24] Speaker 2: and did really well for about 12 months and then
[42:28] Speaker 2: moved in with an old dancing buddy.
[42:31] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[42:31] Speaker 2: And things just spiralled. She had parties all the time,
[42:34] Speaker 2: so I was just partying all the time.
[42:37] Speaker 1: No, I shouldn't laugh. I'm just trying to process it. Okay, Darwin.
[42:40] Speaker 1: I can imagine the lifestyle up there and it is
[42:44] Speaker 1: the Wild West up there. I love it. It's just
[42:46] Speaker 1: got a good vibe.
[42:48] Speaker 2: It does.
[42:48] Speaker 1: But I can imagine getting out of control. You come down.
[42:53] Speaker 1: You're working Jetstar, so you've got a regular job. You're
[42:56] Speaker 1: trying to settle down. move back with your grandmother. Like
[42:59] Speaker 1: if anyone's going to keep you on track, it's your grandmother.
[43:03] Speaker 2: Not at all.
[43:04] Speaker 1: And then your friend turned up and, oh, I would
[43:08] Speaker 1: have never seen that going bad again. No, not at all.
[43:10] Speaker 1: With the men in your life, the bad boys, and
[43:13] Speaker 1: I ask this of a lot of people who have
[43:16] Speaker 1: been in your position and live the lifestyle and the
[43:19] Speaker 1: attraction to the bad boys. And I've had people sit here,
[43:21] Speaker 1: not this similar background to yourself, and go, it didn't
[43:25] Speaker 1: work out. And I sit here going, Oh, that's a surprise.
[43:28] Speaker 2: Well, for me, it's not a surprise looking back. And
[43:31] Speaker 2: even at the time, I didn't know what a relationship
[43:35] Speaker 2: even was meant to look like. I had no– the
[43:38] Speaker 2: only model that I had of it was my grandparents
[43:41] Speaker 2: who were together all their life and loved each other
[43:44] Speaker 2: and were friends and, you know, had– created a beautiful
[43:47] Speaker 2: life together. But that didn't just happen through magic, right?
[43:51] Speaker 2: But in my mind it did. Like I was a
[43:54] Speaker 2: fairy tale child, right? I read books about fairy tales
[43:58] Speaker 2: and about, you know, love stories and all that kind
[44:01] Speaker 2: of stuff. And somewhere inside of me that's what I
[44:03] Speaker 2: thought was just going to happen one day. So going
[44:08] Speaker 2: into relations, I couldn't communicate at all. The words that
[44:13] Speaker 2: I use today and the communication style that I have,
[44:15] Speaker 2: I had to learn that. I was always good at
[44:17] Speaker 2: communicating with people outside of, but when it came to
[44:20] Speaker 2: emotions and vulnerability, I was a closed book. So going
[44:24] Speaker 2: into a relationship with me was like I have to
[44:26] Speaker 2: guess what Natasha's thinking and feeling today because she's not
[44:29] Speaker 2: going to tell me, but then she's going to throw
[44:31] Speaker 2: a tantrum over there because I haven't guessed right. So,
[44:35] Speaker 2: you know, it wasn't even just the bad boys. It
[44:37] Speaker 2: was literally I was not capable of showing up in
[44:41] Speaker 2: a relationship.
[44:42] Speaker 1: That's an enormous assessment of what was going wrong.
[44:46] Speaker 2: And like some of the men that I chose were
[44:49] Speaker 2: really inappropriate. I don't think I kind of was more
[44:53] Speaker 2: friends with those really bad boys. They were my mates.
[44:56] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[44:56] Speaker 2: And some, you know, the way that they treated their
[44:59] Speaker 2: missus was not always appropriate. And like I said today,
[45:03] Speaker 2: I wouldn't stand by and be friends with them. But
[45:05] Speaker 2: because they were my mates back then, that's who I supported, right?
[45:08] Speaker 2: I was the one that told the missus, oh, he's
[45:10] Speaker 2: just whatever. Yeah. And I'm not proud of that at all.
[45:14] Speaker 2: I think that's really inappropriate.
[45:16] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[45:16] Speaker 2: Of allowing people to create bad behaviour just because it's
[45:21] Speaker 2: not your relationship that you're not saying, you know.
[45:24] Speaker 1: Well, I've been talking about that a lot lately with
[45:28] Speaker 1: all the domestic violence and that, and I think we're
[45:30] Speaker 1: all guilty of just sort of turning a blind eye
[45:33] Speaker 1: to it and not standing up and pulling someone and, hey, mate,
[45:36] Speaker 1: that's not on, that type of thing. And I'd like
[45:41] Speaker 1: to think society's sort of become more aware of it
[45:44] Speaker 1: that we all play a part.
[45:45] Speaker 2: I hope so because to me, and this is no excuse,
[45:48] Speaker 2: but back then I didn't even know what domestic violence meant.
[45:53] Speaker 2: I'd never heard that word before. It didn't sit in,
[45:56] Speaker 2: you know, someone just got a bit handy or, you know,
[45:59] Speaker 2: he just went, I just, you know, slapped her out
[46:01] Speaker 2: of the way or something like that. And you just go,
[46:03] Speaker 2: it's men being men, right? That horrible stuff that we
[46:07] Speaker 2: hide behind or have for so long. Now I have
[46:11] Speaker 2: words around it and even some of my relationships that
[46:14] Speaker 2: were It was full on.
[46:16] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[46:16] Speaker 2: And it was not okay. But I took responsibility for that,
[46:20] Speaker 2: full responsibility, which is not okay either because– Yeah, well, there's.
[46:25] Speaker 1: A lot of– yeah, and I'm just talking the relationships
[46:28] Speaker 1: with the females. Oh, I shouldn't have upset him. Yeah,
[46:31] Speaker 1: I know he gets cranky when he drinks. And I
[46:34] Speaker 1: cringe when I hear that, but that was almost– yeah,
[46:37] Speaker 1: that was the way people dealt with domestic violence.
[46:40] Speaker 2: Yeah, and still do.
[46:41] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[46:41] Speaker 2: Because they don't know any different. And when you've been
[46:44] Speaker 2: in it for so long, it becomes normal.
[46:47] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[46:48] Speaker 2: Right? And that thing, oh, why doesn't she just leave?
[46:51] Speaker 2: That just, that really pisses me off.
[46:54] Speaker 1: I think we're becoming more aware of the difficulties. And
[46:58] Speaker 1: I think we'll be talking about that in more detail
[47:01] Speaker 1: in part two of the advocacy work that you're doing
[47:04] Speaker 1: and women in prison. But we're going to get you
[47:08] Speaker 1: in the prison. Yeah. I'm sorry, but this is true crime.
[47:12] Speaker 1: We're going to get you in the prison.
[47:14] Speaker 2: We're almost there.
[47:16] Speaker 1: When, yeah, with the drug dealing and that, and I
[47:21] Speaker 1: spoke to the other day and you said you look
[47:24] Speaker 1: back at it and, yeah, you're not proud of that
[47:26] Speaker 1: chapter in your life.
[47:29] Speaker 2: Look, it's always been there. I didn't just. Suddenly wake
[47:32] Speaker 2: up one day and go, I'm going to date a
[47:34] Speaker 2: drug dealer, right, after getting clean and not using drugs anymore.
[47:39] Speaker 1: Sorry, that's something I picked up too. The person that
[47:43] Speaker 1: you were locked up with, with the drug dealing, you
[47:46] Speaker 1: two met in the rehab. Yeah.
[47:48] Speaker 2: Well, not in rehab, in NA.
[47:49] Speaker 1: Oh, right. Okay.
[47:49] Speaker 2: Not quite synonymous, yeah.
[47:51] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[47:51] Speaker 2: So we both weren't using it at the time, which
[47:54] Speaker 2: kind of in a way I kind of go that's
[47:56] Speaker 2: just ludicrous, all of it, but that it was a business.
[48:00] Speaker 2: It was an enterprise, right? It was about making money.
[48:02] Speaker 1: Yeah. And you would have, by that stage, seen the
[48:05] Speaker 1: damage that drugs can do and all that. Were you
[48:08] Speaker 1: oblivious to the cause and effect when you were making
[48:11] Speaker 1: money from it? No. Okay. No.
[48:14] Speaker 2: So before hand, yes, always.
[48:17] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[48:17] Speaker 2: And probably didn't care because everybody I knew was taking drugs.
[48:21] Speaker 1: Okay. Right?
[48:22] Speaker 2: So it just becomes normal. And I didn't see– chose
[48:27] Speaker 2: not to see the disadvantage that it causes for children and,
[48:31] Speaker 2: you know, when mums are on drugs and that kind
[48:32] Speaker 2: of stuff. And probably there was some that was around me,
[48:35] Speaker 2: but I never took note because it wasn't my problem.
[48:38] Speaker 1: Yeah. Right.
[48:40] Speaker 2: So, but by the time I was offending with my
[48:44] Speaker 2: partner at the time, my mindset around how I viewed
[48:48] Speaker 2: the world was changing. I was in that, in that
[48:52] Speaker 2: change process from going from, I almost killed myself. right,
[48:57] Speaker 2: with drugs.
[48:58] Speaker 1: Oh, okay.
[48:59] Speaker 2: Yeah, I was going to die from my using. Like
[49:01] Speaker 2: I was so self-destructive around it.
[49:03] Speaker 1: What sort of drugs were you using?
[49:05] Speaker 2: Ice, cocaine.
[49:07] Speaker 1: Yeah, just that.
[49:08] Speaker 2: Anything, just not heroin. It's the only thing that I
[49:10] Speaker 2: haven't ever tried. But at the time it was mainly
[49:13] Speaker 2: ice though. And it went into this space where I–
[49:17] Speaker 2: and it was not conscious at all. that I had
[49:20] Speaker 2: given up on life and it took a moment of
[49:25] Speaker 2: clarity for me around how dare I do this to
[49:31] Speaker 2: my father. My father's lost two wives in his lifetime, right?
[49:34] Speaker 1: Right.
[49:35] Speaker 2: I cannot die for him. What am I doing here?
[49:39] Speaker 2: I don't belong here. I have opportunity. I have life.
[49:43] Speaker 2: I have, I have a world. Why am I doing
[49:47] Speaker 2: this to myself and what got me here? And the
[49:50] Speaker 2: person that I was dating at the time, um, as
[49:52] Speaker 2: much as he was off the Richter scale and in
[49:55] Speaker 2: his own thing, he was the one that kind of
[49:58] Speaker 2: tapped me on the shoulder a couple of times and said,
[50:00] Speaker 2: what are you doing?
[50:01] Speaker 1: Yeah. Right.
[50:03] Speaker 2: If you stay here, you're going to die. And at
[50:05] Speaker 2: the time I didn't believe him, but he like literally
[50:08] Speaker 2: was freaking out. He's like, oh my God, I'm going
[50:09] Speaker 2: to wake up one day and she'll be dead.
[50:10] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[50:12] Speaker 2: And I just went, something has to change and I
[50:15] Speaker 2: can't not try. Right. I've got to go and give
[50:18] Speaker 2: life a go. Whatever has led me here, however I
[50:22] Speaker 2: got here, I have to go and fix it. Maybe
[50:26] Speaker 2: not for myself right now, but for my dad and
[50:29] Speaker 2: for Corey and Morgana and my uncle, Nan's not here anymore.
[50:34] Speaker 2: Just those four people, right, came to mind. So I did.
[50:38] Speaker 2: I just from one day to another just stopped using drugs.
[50:40] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[50:41] Speaker 2: And that was it. And then in that space of
[50:47] Speaker 2: when you've done damage like I did and with intent
[50:51] Speaker 2: to do damage, the recovery is really slow. You may
[50:56] Speaker 2: stop using but just even things like how you thought process.
[51:01] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[51:02] Speaker 2: The relationship I was in then was really unhealthy. There was,
[51:07] Speaker 2: you know, the belief system that I had built up
[51:09] Speaker 2: around things like domestic and family violence was so unreasonable
[51:15] Speaker 2: and of abuse and of being controlled and all those things.
[51:19] Speaker 2: I had no idea that was actually happening to me.
[51:21] Speaker 2: So when I was getting clean, all these things, I
[51:23] Speaker 2: had to process them and there was, you know, frameworks
[51:26] Speaker 2: that you could wrap around those and suddenly I had
[51:29] Speaker 2: words that that I could explain what I had gone
[51:32] Speaker 2: through and it made and I just went and other
[51:34] Speaker 2: people were healing from those things too and I went, oh,
[51:37] Speaker 2: my God, it's not just me. So that's the space
[51:40] Speaker 2: I was in but I was growing and I was
[51:41] Speaker 2: becoming a different person and I was trying to show
[51:44] Speaker 2: up each day as a different person. So then I
[51:45] Speaker 2: met my co-offender and just loved him, just thought he
[51:52] Speaker 2: was the bee's knees.
[51:54] Speaker 1: And he would have been projecting that he was trying
[51:56] Speaker 1: to get off it too.
[51:58] Speaker 2: He was. But he had only just been out of
[52:00] Speaker 2: prison a year.
[52:01] Speaker 1: Right.
[52:02] Speaker 2: He's been in and out of prison all his life.
[52:05] Speaker 2: Very different story to mine.
[52:06] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[52:07] Speaker 2: But we just connected and there was real love and
[52:10] Speaker 2: care for each other. But again, I think that was
[52:12] Speaker 2: more trauma bonding than anything else. And for me, there
[52:14] Speaker 2: was also a part in it. I've always been quite
[52:17] Speaker 2: strategic in my relationships of what I've wanted from it. Yeah.
[52:22] Speaker 2: gone into it going, I want X, Y, Z, even
[52:25] Speaker 2: if it's unrealistic. And with him, he was safe. He
[52:29] Speaker 2: was kind. And I was still wild. So he'd say
[52:36] Speaker 2: something and I'd lose my nana, right? And in a
[52:40] Speaker 2: toxic relationship, the other person's going to react to that.
[52:43] Speaker 2: He just wouldn't. He'd just go, Tash, it's okay. So
[52:47] Speaker 2: he gave me some space.
[52:47] Speaker 1: He could settle you down. Yeah.
[52:49] Speaker 2: He gave me some space to heal. So I think
[52:52] Speaker 2: all of those things combined kept me feeling safe. So
[52:56] Speaker 2: when he said, oh, you know, I still do X, Y,
[52:59] Speaker 2: Z and move a bit apart here and do a
[53:01] Speaker 2: bit of that, I kind of went, I don't care.
[53:05] Speaker 2: And then he moved in and then he was like, oh,
[53:07] Speaker 2: I want to make a million dollars.
[53:09] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[53:10] Speaker 2: I said, yeah, cool.
[53:11] Speaker 1: All right.
[53:11] Speaker 2: But we're doing it my way. Because you've been to prison.
[53:15] Speaker 2: I never have. Do it my way. It all went
[53:17] Speaker 2: pear-shaped within a week or two. Like he was off
[53:20] Speaker 2: doing his own way and I had the shits. But
[53:23] Speaker 2: then it kind of was in my home anyway. And
[53:26] Speaker 2: I just went, all right, you do whatever you're doing.
[53:30] Speaker 2: I don't care. And then it just became so unmanageable
[53:33] Speaker 2: that I was just like, okay, cool. I'll just manage
[53:35] Speaker 2: the money.
[53:36] Speaker 1: Okay.
[53:36] Speaker 2: So I was just counting cash and I'm like, should
[53:39] Speaker 2: have rung the door and gone, can I get in
[53:40] Speaker 2: trouble for this? Might have been a good, like, just
[53:43] Speaker 2: in case anybody's listening and thinking of, you know, always check.
[53:47] Speaker 1: Again, a cautionary tale. Like, in your mind, I can, well,
[53:52] Speaker 1: he's a drug dealer. Yeah, I'm not. I just love him.
[53:55] Speaker 1: I'm living with him, but I'm not involved in it. Yeah. Yeah.
[53:59] Speaker 2: And I'm advising him on some things that he's either
[54:02] Speaker 2: listening or not, right?
[54:03] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[54:04] Speaker 2: That might keep him safe.
[54:05] Speaker 1: I would imagine that the scale of what you're caught,
[54:08] Speaker 1: there would have been telephone intercepts and different things. So
[54:13] Speaker 1: you would have been jammed up. In terms of your
[54:16] Speaker 1: knowledge or involvement, you couldn't go away from having some
[54:21] Speaker 1: active involvement in it and some benefits from it.
[54:24] Speaker 2: Absolutely.
[54:25] Speaker 1: But I've had a look in what's reported publicly about
[54:29] Speaker 1: the offence. What year was it in?
[54:31] Speaker 2: We were arrested in 2021. Okay.
[54:35] Speaker 1: This is the judge's comments on sentencing. She stayed with
[54:41] Speaker 1: him and she was aware of his business, helps him
[54:43] Speaker 1: with deliveries, and then she's caught with full knowledge of
[54:45] Speaker 1: the funds which are funding her lifestyle. So that was
[54:49] Speaker 1: the judge's comment. But it was also reported, while she
[54:53] Speaker 1: played some role in the management of the operation, it
[54:56] Speaker 1: appeared it was always subordinate to her partner. So the
[55:01] Speaker 1: way you've described it is pretty much how the court
[55:05] Speaker 1: saw it. Yes.
[55:06] Speaker 2: And I think... Turning up, being honest.
[55:10] Speaker 1: Yep.
[55:13] Speaker 2: Not giving a statement.
[55:14] Speaker 1: Yep.
[55:15] Speaker 2: To police. You just don't talk to police when you're arrested.
[55:19] Speaker 1: Oh, you're buying a hard ass.
[55:20] Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely. And they appreciated that in the end. I've
[55:24] Speaker 2: got to say, you know, I can't speak for anybody else,
[55:26] Speaker 2: but my experience with the detectives that I dealt with was,
[55:31] Speaker 2: you know, there was actually a bit of banter even
[55:33] Speaker 2: around our conversation because they were just like, oh, my God,
[55:36] Speaker 2: we normally– because they put a lot of work into this, right,
[55:41] Speaker 2: that for four months we were under investigation. And there
[55:44] Speaker 2: was a joint task force because it was a separate
[55:47] Speaker 2: investigation of one of the people that my ex was
[55:51] Speaker 2: selling to, or we were selling to, I should say,
[55:53] Speaker 2: because I'm involved in it, and he was already on investigation.
[55:57] Speaker 2: Then they found us through that. Put taps on everything, phone, cars, trackers.
[56:03] Speaker 2: Four months is a long time, right?
[56:05] Speaker 1: Gather a lot of evidence.
[56:06] Speaker 2: A lot of evidence. And when they did arrest us, obviously,
[56:12] Speaker 2: I worked the whole time that I had a job.
[56:16] Speaker 2: Like for me, that wasn't that main, great, I'm going
[56:20] Speaker 2: to get a bit of money, I'm going to be
[56:21] Speaker 2: able to retire nicely, we can buy a house, you know,
[56:23] Speaker 2: towards the end before we got arrested. It was very
[56:25] Speaker 2: clear that we were not going to buy anything together. um,
[56:29] Speaker 2: me and my ex, but that's, you know, we would
[56:31] Speaker 2: have gone our separate ways whether we were arrested or not.
[56:34] Speaker 2: And when we were arrested, like, I think they were
[56:37] Speaker 2: hoping that I would give them more. Yeah, absolutely.
[56:41] Speaker 1: Right.
[56:41] Speaker 2: And, and I understand that that's the game that needs
[56:43] Speaker 2: to be played because ultimately what they were looking for
[56:47] Speaker 2: was the next connections, right? Not just.
[56:50] Speaker 1: Yeah. You're reading it, right?
[56:51] Speaker 2: Yeah.
[56:52] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[56:52] Speaker 2: I know a bit, a little bit about the process,
[56:54] Speaker 2: even though it's only one been through at one time,
[56:57] Speaker 2: but I was just like, nah, No statement given. Here's
[57:00] Speaker 2: my lawyer's name. Please ring them. And can you ring
[57:04] Speaker 2: my mum?
[57:05] Speaker 1: Okay.
[57:06] Speaker 2: Or my Corrie.
[57:07] Speaker 1: Yeah. Shame and regret. Because the lifestyle that you live,
[57:13] Speaker 1: and I'm surmising here, but okay, you're reckless, you're wild.
[57:17] Speaker 1: I wasn't hurting anyone. I'm doing this. Then when you
[57:21] Speaker 1: come to that point, I've been arrested. Yeah, it was
[57:24] Speaker 1: in the media. You've got to phone your mum, caught
[57:27] Speaker 1: up in the drugs.
[57:29] Speaker 2: No shame. I don't have shame around it. And regret,
[57:33] Speaker 2: I don't do regret. I look at things and learn
[57:36] Speaker 2: from them and then go, I don't want to do
[57:38] Speaker 2: that again. But I don't have that whole, oh my God,
[57:42] Speaker 2: I wish I didn't do things differently. I chose that
[57:46] Speaker 2: at the time. I knew I was breaking the law.
[57:49] Speaker 2: Like I said, I didn't just wake up one day
[57:51] Speaker 2: and date one drug dealer and it wasn't my first
[57:53] Speaker 2: time involved in stuff like that before I just didn't care.
[57:57] Speaker 2: This time around, a couple of times I said, this
[58:00] Speaker 2: needs to wrap up. You've got your meal. Wrap it up.
[58:04] Speaker 2: Fuck it off. I don't want this in my life anymore.
[58:07] Speaker 2: It's wrong. It doesn't sit well with who I'm becoming.
[58:11] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[58:12] Speaker 2: And who I want to be as a person. We're
[58:14] Speaker 2: still going to take the money from it, right? Don't
[58:15] Speaker 2: get me wrong.
[58:16] Speaker 1: No, I'm hearing you and I appreciate your honesty with it.
[58:19] Speaker 2: But there was a morality around it that I had
[58:22] Speaker 2: never felt before.
[58:23] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[58:24] Speaker 2: And then when I had to face Corrie and Morgana,
[58:28] Speaker 2: who Morgana picked me up from the police station when
[58:31] Speaker 2: I got bail.
[58:32] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[58:32] Speaker 2: And she was so angry with me, right? And in
[58:35] Speaker 2: the past when people that I cared for and that
[58:38] Speaker 2: cared for me were angry with me or made me
[58:42] Speaker 2: feel uncomfortable, I'd run. This time I didn't want to
[58:45] Speaker 2: run and I wanted to fix it, but there was
[58:49] Speaker 2: only one way to help Morgana and Corey trust me
[58:53] Speaker 2: again was to just show up each day and do
[58:57] Speaker 2: the right thing, whatever that was. Because these people were
[59:01] Speaker 2: not my blood. They'd shown up for me time and
[59:03] Speaker 2: time again and have never– it's never been conditional because
[59:08] Speaker 2: the world that I chose to live in everything was conditional.
[59:12] Speaker 2: But these, my, my dad, it was my family, my uncle,
[59:16] Speaker 2: nothing's ever been conditional, but this time it came with
[59:20] Speaker 2: a condition that this is the last time. that they're
[59:23] Speaker 2: going to open the doors for me if I continue.
[59:26] Speaker 1: To fuck up. Okay, well, that's a bit of a
[59:27] Speaker 1: wake-up call.
[59:28] Speaker 2: Absolutely. And it was then a choice that I had
[59:30] Speaker 2: to make because I also was sitting in a space
[59:33] Speaker 2: of I can continue to live this life, which I
[59:38] Speaker 2: call dark, or I can choose to completely step into
[59:41] Speaker 2: the light. And what am I so afraid of in
[59:45] Speaker 2: the light? Why do I keep going back into this
[59:48] Speaker 2: shady place where I used to hide?
[59:50] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[59:52] Speaker 2: I can't hide anymore because I don't belong there. It
[59:55] Speaker 2: doesn't sit with my values. It isn't who I want
[59:57] Speaker 2: to be. I had no idea who exactly I wanted
[1:00:01] Speaker 2: to be yet, but that came with time. And I
[1:00:04] Speaker 2: chose to, from that day forward, to always be honest
[1:00:10] Speaker 2: with these people, to never leave them in the dark again, right,
[1:00:14] Speaker 2: because I hadn't told them about it. For me, that
[1:00:17] Speaker 2: was safety for them, right? They don't need to know.
[1:00:19] Speaker 2: And that.
[1:00:22] Speaker 2: To create that change, I also had to really vet
[1:00:25] Speaker 2: the people that I allowed to step into my life.
[1:00:28] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[1:00:29] Speaker 2: And when you do that, right, life becomes really kind
[1:00:32] Speaker 2: of lonely, especially if you don't have the network that
[1:00:35] Speaker 2: I had that are already in the line and that
[1:00:37] Speaker 2: have this, if you don't have that, that space, that's
[1:00:40] Speaker 2: what makes it so hard to create that change.
[1:00:43] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[1:00:43] Speaker 2: And to choose differently. But I did, I chose differently.
[1:00:46] Speaker 2: And I'm telling you, the whole process of Arrest... being
[1:00:51] Speaker 2: let go on bail, the conditions, trying to figure out
[1:00:55] Speaker 2: what's going to happen. When you get the brief that
[1:00:58] Speaker 2: I was like that much of but it was that
[1:01:00] Speaker 2: big because it was both the other two offenders, trying
[1:01:04] Speaker 2: to read through that, finding all this other stuff that
[1:01:07] Speaker 2: I kind of half knew about but didn't really. And
[1:01:11] Speaker 2: so that world that I had banked on with him,
[1:01:15] Speaker 2: that crumbling as well, it's, you know, there's no, I'm not,
[1:01:21] Speaker 2: saying that it was unbearable, but it was pretty shitty.
[1:01:25] Speaker 2: It was a shitty place to be, but the only
[1:01:28] Speaker 2: person that put me in that place was myself.
[1:01:31] Speaker 1: Well, the fact that you can acknowledge that is so
[1:01:35] Speaker 1: helpful to move forward. Like if you're going, oh, but
[1:01:38] Speaker 1: I was just in the wrong relationship, you had choices.
[1:01:43] Speaker 2: Absolutely. They were all my choices. Every single one of
[1:01:46] Speaker 2: those things None of the offence, look, I later on
[1:01:49] Speaker 2: spoke to my ex when we were first no contact.
[1:01:53] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[1:01:53] Speaker 2: Once I went to prison, I actually wrote him a
[1:01:56] Speaker 2: letter and he was like, I thought you were going
[1:01:58] Speaker 2: to blame me. I said, why would I blame you?
[1:02:00] Speaker 2: You made your choices. I made mine.
[1:02:02] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[1:02:03] Speaker 2: You didn't make me do anything, right?
[1:02:05] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[1:02:06] Speaker 2: That's not how it works when you're committing a crime.
[1:02:09] Speaker 1: That could have been the easy path out for you
[1:02:11] Speaker 1: because I'm sure the police offered you, well, you tell
[1:02:14] Speaker 1: us what's going on and there'll be no charges or
[1:02:16] Speaker 1: you'll be getting a letter of comfort and you won't
[1:02:18] Speaker 1: be serving any time. So you would have had.
[1:02:20] Speaker 2: They didn't offer that as such, but I knew that
[1:02:23] Speaker 2: that was on the table, right? They didn't have to
[1:02:25] Speaker 2: tell me, I'm quite intelligent. And I kind of knew
[1:02:28] Speaker 2: that that was on the table and he knew that
[1:02:29] Speaker 2: too at the time. That would have been the most
[1:02:31] Speaker 2: horrendous time for him because He was shady, right? So
[1:02:36] Speaker 2: he didn't, when you're shady, you think everybody else is too.
[1:02:39] Speaker 2: But I would never, I made my choices. And when
[1:02:43] Speaker 2: something happens and the consequences hit you, you've got to
[1:02:47] Speaker 2: own them.
[1:02:47] Speaker 1: Well, I think, and you've made some good choices, some
[1:02:50] Speaker 1: bad choices, but I think that's probably the best choice
[1:02:53] Speaker 1: you made in your life. Because if you were finding excuses, well,
[1:02:57] Speaker 1: I just got caught up in it. I wasn't really
[1:02:59] Speaker 1: the blame for it. You would have fallen back into
[1:03:00] Speaker 1: that life.
[1:03:01] Speaker 2: Absolutely. I would have gone back there.
[1:03:03] Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. But actually taking responsibility and accepting the
[1:03:08] Speaker 1: consequences of the responsibility is a big thing.
[1:03:12] Speaker 2: It's the only way forward.
[1:03:14] Speaker 1: All right. Well, we're going to take a break. At
[1:03:17] Speaker 1: least we've got you arrested. It took me an hour
[1:03:21] Speaker 1: to get you arrested. I'm sorry. No, but your backstory
[1:03:25] Speaker 1: was fascinating. I think that's, you know, on a long-form
[1:03:29] Speaker 1: chat podcast like this, it's interesting to put in the
[1:03:32] Speaker 1: context how people got here. It's a crime podcast.
[1:03:36] Speaker 2: Yeah.
[1:03:36] Speaker 1: But if we just start, I was dealing drugs, I
[1:03:39] Speaker 1: got arrested. The backstory is the interesting thing. What we
[1:03:43] Speaker 1: are going to talk about in part two is your
[1:03:46] Speaker 1: experience in prison. And, yeah, we highlighted that at the
[1:03:50] Speaker 1: start of this episode where you're realised how privileged you were,
[1:03:54] Speaker 1: what you'd learnt about yourself in prison, what you learnt
[1:03:57] Speaker 1: about others and how it's sort of given you life
[1:04:02] Speaker 1: purpose after leaving prison on what you're doing, which, yeah,
[1:04:05] Speaker 1: we love stories of redemption here. Cool. So let's talk
[1:04:09] Speaker 1: about that and all the issues that we discussed the
[1:04:11] Speaker 1: other day where we could perhaps improve corrective services or, yeah,
[1:04:16] Speaker 1: the prison system. Love to. Make it a better society.
[1:04:19] Speaker 2: Yes, and a safer one too.
[1:04:21] Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely. Less crime, less victims.
[1:04:24] Speaker 2: Absolutely.
[1:04:24] Speaker 1: Sounds great. Back soon. Okay. Cheers.

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