# Why she’s ok that her brother's killer is free: Jessica Brown Pt. 1

An episode of [I Catch Killers with Gary Jubelin](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1506667049), 11 Jul 2026, 57 min.

Audio: https://p.podderapp.com/2544644999/traffic.omny.fm/d/clips/2fb3740d-3436-44af-8cc0-a91900716aa5/5bc8c2ed-b718-4f44-beb3-ac2a005246cc/a4e307d2-ab88-4acc-8dc1-b483002927bb/audio.mp3?utm_source=Podcast&in_playlist=786928c3-10c1-4cef-a7bf-ac2a005246d0

On what seemed like an ordinary day, Jessica Brown was driving to her parents' house for lunch when her world was shattered, her brother Edan had been stabbed to death. If you're a regular listener of I Catch Killers, you’ll recall one of the most confronting conversations ever on this show, the moment Gary sat face to face with Anthony Jones, the man who took Edan's life. But that was only half the story. Now, we hear the other side of the story. In this episode, Jessica opens up about what it truly means to survive the murder of someone you love, the grief that never fully leaves, the moments that break you, and the extraordinary strength it takes to rebuild. She also shares how she transformed unimaginable pain into purpose. Listen to Anthony Jones on I Catch Killers here. Subscribe to our new Youtube channel. Follow I Catch Killers: Instagram: @icatchkillers Tiktok: @icatchkillerspodcast Facebook: @icatchkillers See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

## Transcript

[0:01] Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives
[0:05] Speaker 1: detective sy aside of life. The average person has never
[0:08] Speaker 1: exposed her I spent thirty four years as a cop.
[0:11] Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.
[0:14] Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a
[0:16] Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,
[0:20] Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.
[0:23] Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories
[0:26] Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw
[0:28] Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talked to. Some
[0:31] Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because
[0:34] Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.
[0:38] Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.
[0:46] Speaker 1: On what was otherwise an ordinary day, Jessica Brown was
[0:49] Speaker 1: driving to a parents' house when she found out her
[0:52] Speaker 1: brother Eden had been stabbed to death. Grief after murder
[0:56] Speaker 1: is unlike anything else. There's a lot of pain and
[0:59] Speaker 1: overwhelm in sadness combined with anger. If you're a regular
[1:03] Speaker 1: listener of Eye Catch Killers, you remember one of the
[1:06] Speaker 1: most confronting conversations I had on this show was sitting
[1:09] Speaker 1: across from Anthony Jones, the man who took Eden's life. Today,
[1:14] Speaker 1: we hear the other side of the story. In this episode,
[1:18] Speaker 1: Jessica shares what it means to survive after the murder
[1:21] Speaker 1: of someone you love and how she turned that pain
[1:24] Speaker 1: into purpose. Jessica's a driving force behind Sister The Sister
[1:29] Speaker 1: and Worry a Woman, and also sits on the Serious
[1:31] Speaker 1: Offenders Review Board. She has a lot to talk about
[1:35] Speaker 1: regarding the world of crime. Have a listen to what
[1:38] Speaker 1: she has to say. Jessica Brown, Welcome to I Catch Killers.
[1:44] Speaker 2: Thank you for having me.
[1:45] Speaker 1: Well. We've been in a lot of communication in the
[1:49] Speaker 1: last couple of months, so it's good to finally have
[1:52] Speaker 1: you in the studio and sit down and talk to you.
[1:55] Speaker 2: Thanks for having me well.
[1:56] Speaker 1: I've also got to thank you for the invite to
[1:59] Speaker 1: the Keeping Women out of Prison breakfast at State Parliament.
[2:02] Speaker 1: I attended a couple of weeks ago. It was quite
[2:04] Speaker 1: interesting some of the things that were raised there.
[2:07] Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it's important. That was the tenth anniversary,
[2:10] Speaker 2: wasn't it. Yes, in Parliament House. What were the points
[2:13] Speaker 2: that you got from that?
[2:14] Speaker 1: They raised like a couple of points and I was
[2:17] Speaker 1: going to raise some of it. Some of the statistics
[2:20] Speaker 1: were quite concerning remand and sentencing. Sixty percent of women
[2:24] Speaker 1: in prison and on remand and fifty two percent don't
[2:28] Speaker 1: receive a custodial sentence. Now, breaking that down, you've got
[2:32] Speaker 1: sixty percent in prison on remand. So these are people
[2:35] Speaker 1: that haven't been convicted of a crime at this point
[2:37] Speaker 1: in time. They've been put in custody, but there's no conviction.
[2:41] Speaker 1: So sixty percent of women we have in the prison
[2:45] Speaker 1: system in this state, and of that sixty percent, fifty
[2:50] Speaker 1: two percent when the matter is finalized at court, they
[2:52] Speaker 1: don't get a custodi or sentence concerning.
[2:56] Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. So I only dealt with the seriousers through
[3:01] Speaker 2: the SERI Offenders Review Council. So the statistics between the
[3:06] Speaker 2: males and females are quite alarming. So you've got forty
[3:10] Speaker 2: six in New South Wales and then you've got eight
[3:14] Speaker 2: hundred and forty five I think it is of males
[3:17] Speaker 2: within New South Wales. So that sort of says yes,
[3:20] Speaker 2: and these are the most serious offenders, and most serious
[3:24] Speaker 2: offenders are in there for murder over half half of them,
[3:29] Speaker 2: and men sexual assault as well. But yeah, a lot
[3:32] Speaker 2: of the women are the murder as well, a lot
[3:35] Speaker 2: of them.
[3:35] Speaker 1: I think given the nature of the breakfast at Parliament
[3:38] Speaker 1: House Keep Women out of Prison, that was we're just
[3:41] Speaker 1: looking at alternate ways, you know obviously, and I think,
[3:44] Speaker 1: and we're going to talk about your experience with crime,
[3:47] Speaker 1: with the murder of your brother Eden, and yeah, that's
[3:52] Speaker 1: as real as it gets to be caught up in
[3:55] Speaker 1: the world of crime. But if we can do something
[3:58] Speaker 1: better and help people turn them around, is the work
[4:02] Speaker 1: that you do and the work that you've been doing
[4:03] Speaker 1: for quite some time, I think we're in a better place.
[4:07] Speaker 1: Another thing that came out or another thing I picked
[4:10] Speaker 1: up during the whole range of guests speakers that they
[4:13] Speaker 1: had at the breakfast, was it sixty percent of incarcerated
[4:16] Speaker 1: women and mothers. Now, it shouldn't give you a free
[4:19] Speaker 1: pass from jail just because you're a mother. But I
[4:22] Speaker 1: think the flow on effect from that is that when
[4:24] Speaker 1: a mother, because generally they're the primary care of children,
[4:29] Speaker 1: when mothers are taken away from the family structure, you
[4:33] Speaker 1: can see ongoing, ongoing issues there.
[4:36] Speaker 2: Yeah, negative ripple effects. A lot of the kids end
[4:39] Speaker 2: up in foster care if the mother is the primary
[4:41] Speaker 2: care and also just the knock on effect of having
[4:47] Speaker 2: someone in incarcerated. You know, it can be quite devastating
[4:51] Speaker 2: for young women and men. Obviously, I've been working in
[4:54] Speaker 2: the women in girls space for many years now, but yeah,
[4:57] Speaker 2: I've seen the devastating effects of know what it's like
[5:00] Speaker 2: for young women to have parents who are in cars rated.
[5:03] Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, and the advocacy work is very important because
[5:07] Speaker 1: I think when we talk crime, and I know I've
[5:09] Speaker 1: been guilty of it, more so when I'm out of
[5:12] Speaker 1: the police. But doing the podcast, we talk crime, we
[5:15] Speaker 1: talk prisons and all that, but we forget about the
[5:18] Speaker 1: female prisons quite often. You mentioned jail, and your image
[5:23] Speaker 1: is of a group of men walking around in the
[5:25] Speaker 1: yard somewhere. We don't often think about women in prison.
[5:29] Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, interesting enough. With my sauc work, obviously, I've
[5:33] Speaker 2: put a pause on that at the moment, but I
[5:36] Speaker 2: started that in two thousand and four. I only saw
[5:40] Speaker 2: three women. Out of all of them, they're all men,
[5:43] Speaker 2: and that was an interesting fact. But the ones that
[5:47] Speaker 2: were there were interesting too, and they were all mothers.
[5:51] Speaker 1: Right yep. So just because you mentioned saur and acronyms,
[5:54] Speaker 1: I always get lost in acronyms, But serious effect.
[5:57] Speaker 2: There's a lot of acronyms in saulk okay.
[5:59] Speaker 1: Serious of a review board and that's looking at people
[6:03] Speaker 1: that are in for serious crimes and what is to
[6:07] Speaker 1: become of them and whether they should be released in
[6:10] Speaker 1: different things. Yeah, yeah, one last and we'll just finish
[6:13] Speaker 1: off on the breakfast. Another stat that came out was
[6:17] Speaker 1: Aboriginal women make up forty percent of the female prison
[6:20] Speaker 1: population and there are only three percent of the state's
[6:25] Speaker 1: female population, which is concerning, isn't it.
[6:28] Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely, And in terms of just going back to
[6:31] Speaker 2: the Serious Offenders Review Council, is that over fifty percent
[6:35] Speaker 2: of Aboriginal women. Yeah, there's a really high statistic of
[6:39] Speaker 2: Aboriginal women who were part of that bracket. Yeah.
[6:43] Speaker 1: No, you hear that type of stats a lot, and
[6:46] Speaker 1: it's something that there's something broken, something that needs to
[6:50] Speaker 1: be fixed. But that was the breakfast at Parliament House.
[6:54] Speaker 1: Thank you very much for the invite. I enjoyed it
[6:56] Speaker 1: and met a lot of interesting people there. They're very
[6:58] Speaker 1: passionate about getting the justice system right, which is always
[7:02] Speaker 1: you walk away a little bit inspired from that. The
[7:05] Speaker 1: politicians said all the right thing. Hopefully the politicians deliver
[7:09] Speaker 1: they're very good at saying the right things. It's a
[7:11] Speaker 1: matter of them actually coming through with what they promised to.
[7:15] Speaker 1: Now I want to speak to you about your brother's death.
[7:20] Speaker 1: And when I say death, he was murdered by Anthony Jones.
[7:24] Speaker 1: Now Eden Brown and Anthony Jones might if they have
[7:27] Speaker 1: been listening to the podcast would be for me because
[7:30] Speaker 1: I've had Anthony Jones on the podcast. He's since been released.
[7:35] Speaker 1: When he murdered your brother Eden, that was in twenty ten.
[7:41] Speaker 2: And he was released in June last year.
[7:43] Speaker 1: Yeah, Now, before I got him on the podcast, and
[7:45] Speaker 1: this is how we started to get in touch, was
[7:49] Speaker 1: I didn't feel comfortable getting Anthony on the podcast to
[7:53] Speaker 1: talk about talk about his life unless I spoke to
[7:56] Speaker 1: the family Eden's family that me to you, and both
[8:01] Speaker 1: spoke to you and we talked about it, and I
[8:04] Speaker 1: thought you were very generous in what you had to
[8:07] Speaker 1: say and the feelings that you had about Anthony potentially
[8:12] Speaker 1: turning his life around.
[8:14] Speaker 2: So yeah, look, we're really grateful that he has turned
[8:17] Speaker 2: his life around. I guess there's a lot of families
[8:19] Speaker 2: that don't have that. Whilst we've been very unlucky by
[8:23] Speaker 2: losing my brother we've been lucky in the sense that
[8:26] Speaker 2: he has made something of himself and he has a
[8:30] Speaker 2: plan to give back to the community and to I
[8:34] Speaker 2: guess turn his life into purpose now rather than just
[8:37] Speaker 2: being an angry man, which is what he described in
[8:40] Speaker 2: the podcast that he did. So yeah, really grateful in
[8:44] Speaker 2: the sense that he you know, a lot of families
[8:46] Speaker 2: don't get that. A lot of people get out of
[8:48] Speaker 2: jail with no remorse, and so he certainly does have
[8:52] Speaker 2: that remorse, which is which is a good thing.
[8:55] Speaker 1: But I look, I understand that. But I say to you,
[8:59] Speaker 1: full credit to you for the generosity of spirit that
[9:02] Speaker 1: you could actually acknowledge that someone who's turning his life
[9:06] Speaker 1: around someone that's responsible for murdering your brother. We talk,
[9:11] Speaker 1: and this is not going to be the whole conversation,
[9:14] Speaker 1: but I think it puts in perspective the type of
[9:17] Speaker 1: work that you're doing, because I think if anyone's got
[9:20] Speaker 1: an understanding of the pain of crime, it's yourself first
[9:24] Speaker 1: of all. Before we talk about it, and tell me
[9:26] Speaker 1: what you remember of Eden as your brother.
[9:29] Speaker 2: Ah, goofy, fun loving, very charismatic, life of the party,
[9:35] Speaker 2: just a really good hearted person. He I know that
[9:38] Speaker 2: Anthony in his podcast mentioned that he was like a
[9:41] Speaker 2: big brother type to him, which is what Eden was like.
[9:46] Speaker 2: He loved everybody and was not judgmental. I mean, Mum
[9:50] Speaker 2: came home one day and he had a homeless person
[9:52] Speaker 2: at having a shower and he was cooking and lamb
[9:55] Speaker 2: chops under the the grills, so he would honestly, I
[10:00] Speaker 2: could see how he would have gravitated to Aj and
[10:03] Speaker 2: you know, wanted to help him, knowing that, you know,
[10:05] Speaker 2: he'd had really crap upbringing, challenging upbringing, and so Eden
[10:10] Speaker 2: would have been quite empathetic to that and wanted to
[10:12] Speaker 2: help him. And you know, I could see that he
[10:15] Speaker 2: was wanting to be, you know, sort of a big
[10:18] Speaker 2: brother to him.
[10:19] Speaker 1: A role model.
[10:21] Speaker 2: Yeah.
[10:21] Speaker 1: Yeah, well it's tragic how it turned out and then
[10:24] Speaker 1: ended up in a situation that a party where he
[10:28] Speaker 1: was stabbed to death.
[10:29] Speaker 2: Yeah, it was pretty crap. Yeah, I was. Actually I
[10:35] Speaker 2: had a really really hard week and I my phone
[10:38] Speaker 2: was going off at you know, all sorts of hours
[10:42] Speaker 2: of the morning, and it was silent number, and my
[10:45] Speaker 2: phone actually went flat, and I'd left my car charger
[10:49] Speaker 2: in my car, and it was like one or two
[10:53] Speaker 2: o'clock in the morning. And I thought, well, I'm not
[10:54] Speaker 2: going to walk to my car at that time, and
[10:57] Speaker 2: I thought of it. If it was a number that
[10:59] Speaker 2: I knew that I would to answer it. But as
[11:01] Speaker 2: it turns out, I was going to mom and Dad's
[11:04] Speaker 2: house the next day and for lunch, and so I
[11:06] Speaker 2: didn't actually get I had a big sleep in because
[11:09] Speaker 2: I was just wrecked. Got in my car and plugged
[11:12] Speaker 2: my phone in and it just went absolutely balistic. I
[11:15] Speaker 2: had to pull over because I thought, oh, gosh, my
[11:18] Speaker 2: phone's malfunctioning. And I'd just seen on the news that
[11:21] Speaker 2: two people had been stabbed, two separate incidents, since one
[11:25] Speaker 2: was in the area that my brother lived in, and
[11:29] Speaker 2: I was like, oh, those poor families. That's exactly what
[11:31] Speaker 2: I was thinking, of those poor families. Which you do,
[11:33] Speaker 2: you know, you on the news every morning, he hears
[11:35] Speaker 2: something that's happened, and yeah, I pulled over, and I
[11:42] Speaker 2: my heart just sank, and I got a text from
[11:46] Speaker 2: my sibling who said, yeah, Eden's been killed. He's been stabbed.
[11:52] Speaker 2: Drive safely, and so I don't really remember much about
[11:56] Speaker 2: the drive. I probably shouldn't have been driving, to be honest,
[12:00] Speaker 2: but I kind of just went into full adrenaline mode.
[12:04] Speaker 2: Apparently I rang my best friend screaming my head off,
[12:06] Speaker 2: and I don't remember that. So, like I said, I
[12:08] Speaker 2: probably shouldn't have been driving, but I did get so
[12:11] Speaker 2: I did get there safely. And yeah, and that's kind
[12:15] Speaker 2: of where you just, yeah, the ship began.
[12:19] Speaker 1: Yeah, well and is it's the start of a very
[12:22] Speaker 1: long journey that continues to this day. But yeah, getting
[12:26] Speaker 1: that type of that type of call and response, and
[12:31] Speaker 1: how do you respond to that, you said you shouldn't
[12:33] Speaker 1: be driving? What do you do? You've got the function?
[12:35] Speaker 2: And I was very I remember being very careful, just thinking, God,
[12:39] Speaker 2: what's just trying to process? So, as I said, I
[12:42] Speaker 2: did get there safely. But then you walk into a
[12:45] Speaker 2: room of a whole family who's just you know, been
[12:48] Speaker 2: at the hospital, just absolute science, and you know, the
[12:55] Speaker 2: one thing that came to my mind was like what
[12:57] Speaker 2: do we do now? Like what what happens now? Like
[13:01] Speaker 2: what do we do? And then we're all called into
[13:05] Speaker 2: the police station the next day and with a whole
[13:08] Speaker 2: lot of detectives and police and they were very very helpful,
[13:14] Speaker 2: but we're obviously all in a man shocked, We're like,
[13:17] Speaker 2: what the hell happened? We didn't even know a j
[13:19] Speaker 2: We didn't know. You know, there's a lot of what happened.
[13:23] Speaker 1: Well, it's a world that people don't know and don't experience,
[13:28] Speaker 1: and thank goodness for that that most people don't experience that,
[13:32] Speaker 1: but it is something completely foreign. You're not dealing with police,
[13:35] Speaker 1: and all of a sudden you've prone and very much
[13:38] Speaker 1: involved in a murder investigation. So the process is trying
[13:43] Speaker 1: to and now that you've been working in the criminal
[13:46] Speaker 1: justice space, you get an more of an understanding. But
[13:50] Speaker 1: that at the time, that's the last thing you thought
[13:53] Speaker 1: you'd be doing, seeing a police station talking to detectives
[13:56] Speaker 1: about the murder of your brother.
[13:57] Speaker 2: Yeah, you kind of it's that saying that you don't
[14:00] Speaker 2: think it's ever going to happen to you until it does.
[14:03] Speaker 2: And yeah, it was just there was more questions than answers,
[14:06] Speaker 2: and obviously the police was still investigating things, so there
[14:10] Speaker 2: wasn't much that they could really tell us, and there
[14:13] Speaker 2: was a lot of people who were just not speaking
[14:15] Speaker 2: and they were still interviewing people and doing the whole
[14:18] Speaker 2: process of what needs to be done to find out
[14:21] Speaker 2: and get to the bottom. We're very lucky that we
[14:23] Speaker 2: did get a dying declaration from Eden to tell us
[14:26] Speaker 2: who it was. I wonder if we hadn't got that,
[14:30] Speaker 2: how messed up? More messed up? You know, I would
[14:33] Speaker 2: be well.
[14:35] Speaker 1: I suppose it gave you some form of answer or
[14:37] Speaker 1: an understanding of what happened, And a lot of times
[14:41] Speaker 1: with murder investigations, there's no idea the initial stages. Anyway,
[14:46] Speaker 1: you said that the police were good, interested in the
[14:49] Speaker 1: perspective from a family member. What the type of things
[14:54] Speaker 1: police can do to help in those situations? What was
[14:58] Speaker 1: it about police that you thought they handled well well?
[15:01] Speaker 2: They kept us informed every step of the way. They
[15:04] Speaker 2: were obviously two years later we had the trial. We
[15:07] Speaker 2: had two trials. The first trial was six you know,
[15:10] Speaker 2: it was going to be six weeks long. We said
[15:13] Speaker 2: that it could be up to that, so I agreed
[15:15] Speaker 2: to do the first two weeks. My brother said he
[15:17] Speaker 2: would do the next two weeks because my brother and
[15:19] Speaker 2: sister live overseas, and then should it continue, my sister
[15:23] Speaker 2: said that she would fly down fly over as well.
[15:26] Speaker 2: So it took the six weeks and then it was
[15:28] Speaker 2: a hung drury.
[15:29] Speaker 1: Yeah, that must have been hard because the whole process.
[15:32] Speaker 1: I think people assume because we watch it on TV
[15:35] Speaker 1: or crime shows on TV. If something happens, please have
[15:39] Speaker 1: caught the person, then it's going to be resolved quickly.
[15:42] Speaker 1: But this goes over years. It's a long drawn out process.
[15:46] Speaker 1: When did you find out that police had made the
[15:49] Speaker 1: arrest of a j.
[15:52] Speaker 2: They came to mum and dad's house. Yep, they found
[15:55] Speaker 2: him in a nightclub and apparently the way Dad describes
[15:57] Speaker 2: it is that he they had been under shaven and
[16:01] Speaker 2: we're very very excited to let mum and dad know
[16:05] Speaker 2: that they had found him because yeah, he went a well,
[16:09] Speaker 2: I guess for two weeks, so that was concerning as
[16:13] Speaker 2: well for us. So yeah, that was But in terms
[16:18] Speaker 2: of going back to the police, they were obviously at
[16:22] Speaker 2: shout out to Timpuli from d Way Police. He was
[16:26] Speaker 2: there every day with the court case who was representing
[16:31] Speaker 2: the family. So yeah, really really great support. We still
[16:34] Speaker 2: speak to him to this day.
[16:36] Speaker 1: That's good and I think that should be the type
[16:38] Speaker 1: of relationship investigating police ap with family members have someone kill,
[16:43] Speaker 1: because it's intense. It's an intense, deeply emotional situation and
[16:48] Speaker 1: if you've got the police officer that cares, that can
[16:50] Speaker 1: make it make a difference, Well.
[16:52] Speaker 2: I mean, who else do we have to go to?
[16:54] Speaker 2: I mean, we have your storative Yeah, that's that was
[16:57] Speaker 2: kind of our thinking, is we don't have any one
[17:00] Speaker 2: to go to for answers. And obviously, you know, eventually
[17:04] Speaker 2: we had restorative justice and the DPP and stuff like that,
[17:08] Speaker 2: but that didn't happen immediately, so there was no sort
[17:12] Speaker 2: of homicide counseling given to us immediately. We did get
[17:17] Speaker 2: offered that a little bit further down the track, and
[17:19] Speaker 2: I was like, well, you know, so those services are available, but.
[17:25] Speaker 1: How did it make you feel when someone had actually
[17:27] Speaker 1: been charged, When the police told you that they charged someone,
[17:30] Speaker 1: What sort of emotions went through your heart and mind
[17:34] Speaker 1: at that stage?
[17:38] Speaker 2: Well, we were still in shock, you know. Two weeks later,
[17:41] Speaker 2: we were obviously happy that they had found him, but
[17:44] Speaker 2: there was still so many questions. We didn't know who
[17:46] Speaker 2: he was, you know, what happened. There was still that
[17:50] Speaker 2: big question as to what happened. Because in Eden's Dye
[17:54] Speaker 2: declaration he said, AJ did it and I think they'd
[17:58] Speaker 2: asked him why did they do it? And he said
[18:00] Speaker 2: don't know, So it kind of makes sense now that
[18:03] Speaker 2: like that. For us, it was like, well, what the
[18:07] Speaker 2: what the heck happened? Like, how did that ererupt? You
[18:10] Speaker 2: know what? And why why did no one go to
[18:14] Speaker 2: my brother's rescue? He literally had to drag himself up
[18:18] Speaker 2: the street dying, bleeding to death and knock on someone's
[18:24] Speaker 2: door window at two o'clock in the morning, which would
[18:28] Speaker 2: have been extremely scary for that person who then went
[18:31] Speaker 2: got his neighbor and then had to you know, thankfully
[18:36] Speaker 2: those two guys came out and tried to stop the bleeding,
[18:39] Speaker 2: called the ambulance. So why was he And you know,
[18:43] Speaker 2: there was all these people in court as well who
[18:45] Speaker 2: had to who were horrified as well. There was a
[18:47] Speaker 2: girl who drove past at that time and Aiden tried
[18:52] Speaker 2: to flager down, but you know, the big burly guy,
[18:55] Speaker 2: Aiden was really big, covered in blood, and I imagine
[18:58] Speaker 2: there was a bit of a scatter of people around
[19:00] Speaker 2: as well, and she immediately got home and rang the police.
[19:03] Speaker 2: But she wasn't gonna. I wouldn't do this.
[19:05] Speaker 1: I would not know, I can.
[19:09] Speaker 2: Yeah, she was completely traumatized, had to come to court
[19:12] Speaker 2: as well, and and so and of course the ambulance
[19:17] Speaker 2: got there before the police, so the ambos couldn't get out. Yeah,
[19:20] Speaker 2: they couldn't wait. They had to wait, so eventually they
[19:25] Speaker 2: did come and then they Yeah, they got him in there,
[19:28] Speaker 2: but yeah, he.
[19:29] Speaker 1: Just how did it change you and the family when
[19:32] Speaker 1: you had a family member murdered?
[19:37] Speaker 2: Wow, well it changes your life forever.
[19:41] Speaker 1: Yeah, you lose faith in humanity or I would imagine
[19:46] Speaker 1: that the potentially could cause divisions in the family. It
[19:49] Speaker 1: might bring you closer to give her probably a whole
[19:51] Speaker 1: range of emotions.
[19:54] Speaker 2: I think we all dealt with the grief in different ways.
[19:57] Speaker 2: You know, you go through a whole stack of emotions
[20:01] Speaker 2: like grief, loss, anger, but mostly bringing us together. Yeah.
[20:09] Speaker 2: But I was just seeing my parents, which is the
[20:11] Speaker 2: most horrible I know.
[20:14] Speaker 1: And I'm apologize for bringing this up, but I think
[20:18] Speaker 1: it's important people understand what really happens with crime, the
[20:22] Speaker 1: depth of emotion that kicks in. And it break my
[20:25] Speaker 1: heart when I spoke to you talking about getting aj
[20:29] Speaker 1: On and you said, look, I can deal with him
[20:31] Speaker 1: coming on and if he's turned his life around. But
[20:35] Speaker 1: to this day, my parents are still broken by the
[20:37] Speaker 1: fact that their son's been murdered. Yeah, we're talking from
[20:41] Speaker 1: twenty ten to present day, and they're still carry carrying
[20:44] Speaker 1: that plan.
[20:46] Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean no parents should have to, you know,
[20:49] Speaker 2: better with their child, right.
[20:50] Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, you're very much involved in their advocacy side
[20:56] Speaker 1: of things, and we will talk in depth about that.
[20:59] Speaker 1: From a court's perspective, do you think the needs of
[21:03] Speaker 1: the victim's families properly catered for? Where you kept informed
[21:06] Speaker 1: on what was going on? You said that you had
[21:09] Speaker 1: a good police officer that was there the whole time,
[21:11] Speaker 1: which I'm sure helped. Is a system set up to
[21:16] Speaker 1: acknowledge the pain and the trauma that the victim's families
[21:20] Speaker 1: are going through.
[21:22] Speaker 2: I mean, there are homicide services. Whether my family wanted
[21:25] Speaker 2: to reach out to those or not was a big
[21:28] Speaker 2: question mark. So I feel like, yeah, it was like
[21:31] Speaker 2: I guess that was what I was saying, is you know,
[21:34] Speaker 2: when we all found out, We're sitting around the lounge room,
[21:37] Speaker 2: We're like, well, what happens next? You know, there was
[21:40] Speaker 2: not it kind of had to figure that out. Yeah,
[21:44] Speaker 2: but at that particular time, the police were all investigating and.
[21:47] Speaker 1: Things like that.
[21:47] Speaker 2: So yeah, I feel there are services out there and
[21:51] Speaker 2: some good ones, but yeah, we just didn't really know
[21:54] Speaker 2: about them at that particular time.
[21:56] Speaker 1: What about the length of time that court matters, matthers taken.
[22:00] Speaker 1: There's a whole range of reasons why justice can be slow,
[22:03] Speaker 1: but I think it's ridiculously slow in some situations. I mean,
[22:08] Speaker 1: AJ was charged by what you said, So the two
[22:11] Speaker 1: weeks after after the event and then we're looking at
[22:14] Speaker 1: the trial years down the track.
[22:17] Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's a hard thing. And that's something
[22:19] Speaker 2: that I didn't really know either that that's how long
[22:22] Speaker 2: it takes. But yeah, you know, to gather all the evidence,
[22:25] Speaker 2: and yeah, the two years that was quite painful and
[22:30] Speaker 2: excruciating for us because you know, we wanted to get
[22:32] Speaker 2: some answers the trauma. I was sort of seeing that
[22:36] Speaker 2: there was other people involved, and that's why we had
[22:38] Speaker 2: a hung jury, is because the police were trying to
[22:41] Speaker 2: get pinned down more than just a J and so
[22:45] Speaker 2: that's that's why we ended up having a hung jury,
[22:47] Speaker 2: because they were going for more than just a J.
[22:50] Speaker 2: Like AJ didn't act alone. We know that whilst he
[22:56] Speaker 2: was the one that did stab him, you know, because
[22:59] Speaker 2: who you believe your brother? He starting decorations, so clearly
[23:02] Speaker 2: he did do that, but there was other We know
[23:05] Speaker 2: that there was others involved.
[23:06] Speaker 1: I always saw the pain that trials and court matters
[23:10] Speaker 1: could bring to families and the intensity of it and
[23:14] Speaker 1: it's such a Yeah, it's just a horrible, horrible situation.
[23:19] Speaker 1: How was it with the media, Like the media play
[23:21] Speaker 1: a part in these things too. What was your dealing
[23:24] Speaker 1: to the media? Ye? Better or so?
[23:28] Speaker 2: Given that the area that we grew up with where
[23:31] Speaker 2: it happened that we had a lovely journalist actually, but
[23:35] Speaker 2: he was reporting on it every day and we ended
[23:38] Speaker 2: up making friends with him. But he Yeah, it was
[23:41] Speaker 2: dragged through the local newspaper and other newspapers. I remember
[23:45] Speaker 2: being in Surrey Hills getting my coffee when I used
[23:48] Speaker 2: to work in Surry Hills, Yeah, and looking over at
[23:51] Speaker 2: the Sydney Morning Herald and seeing an article about it,
[23:54] Speaker 2: and I wanted to tap the person in front of
[23:56] Speaker 2: me and go, that's my brother. That's about my brother.
[23:59] Speaker 2: And I thought, God, that would be so weird if
[24:01] Speaker 2: I did do that. Weird, understandable, but I just wanted
[24:06] Speaker 2: to shout to the rooftops, I'm like God. So that
[24:09] Speaker 2: was really hard, especially with some of the stuff that
[24:12] Speaker 2: came through the media, which you may or may not
[24:15] Speaker 2: necessarily have been true. Like there was a lot of
[24:17] Speaker 2: question around still what happened.
[24:19] Speaker 1: The thing about the way court matters are covered in
[24:22] Speaker 1: the media too. If something set in court, a decision
[24:26] Speaker 1: hasn't been made whether this is true or not true.
[24:28] Speaker 1: But if someone makes an allegation or someone says something,
[24:32] Speaker 1: the journalists can report that this is what was set
[24:34] Speaker 1: in court because it's public record, and I think you
[24:36] Speaker 1: need that scrutiny, but it can be very misleading. I've
[24:40] Speaker 1: been involved in cases where I'm seeing things reported I've
[24:43] Speaker 1: just gone and then the general public are reading that headline,
[24:49] Speaker 1: and then that's a narrative. They might have the paper
[24:52] Speaker 1: or listen to the news the next day, so that's
[24:54] Speaker 1: the narrative they've sat with. So yeah, I asked this
[24:58] Speaker 1: of victims who have been murdered, what their dealings were
[25:03] Speaker 1: like with the media, because some some resent it and
[25:06] Speaker 1: others understand the need for it, and it's just a
[25:10] Speaker 1: it's a real delicate, delicate area.
[25:13] Speaker 2: At first it was really hard, and then like I said,
[25:16] Speaker 2: we made friends with the guy and he yeah, he,
[25:21] Speaker 2: I don't know. It was just something, you know, and
[25:24] Speaker 2: even like Eden's funeral, you know, there was a picture
[25:27] Speaker 2: of his coffin and in the particular newspaper as well,
[25:31] Speaker 2: like that was hard to deal with and you know
[25:35] Speaker 2: things like that.
[25:36] Speaker 1: Well, it's another thing that you most people aren't used to,
[25:39] Speaker 1: is first of all being caught up in criminal procedures
[25:43] Speaker 1: like that, but also at your worst emotional stage exposed
[25:47] Speaker 1: to the public in the rows.
[25:49] Speaker 2: Of Yeah, so those ones were not great. That's we
[25:57] Speaker 2: would much prefer that that didn't happen that one. Yeah,
[26:01] Speaker 2: we also had at the funeral and we had swarms
[26:05] Speaker 2: of police there as well, which filming and it was yeah,
[26:10] Speaker 2: that was really weird as well, trying to see whether
[26:14] Speaker 2: any of them turned up, which they of course didn't.
[26:16] Speaker 2: But yeah, so the media it was hard, but we yeah,
[26:24] Speaker 2: I mean they do. They just report on what comes
[26:27] Speaker 2: out in court that day and whether it's true or not.
[26:31] Speaker 1: Sitting at court and we're not. The court result speaks
[26:34] Speaker 1: for itself, and I don't want you to mention specific people,
[26:37] Speaker 1: but sitting there and hearing things that come across in
[26:40] Speaker 1: court because it's your brother's murder, you have been listening
[26:44] Speaker 1: very intently and all the things that come across in
[26:47] Speaker 1: court from witnesses in the witness box, the legal fraternity
[26:52] Speaker 1: and how they put the spin on it or almost
[26:54] Speaker 1: like it's theater for them and don't quite touch into
[26:57] Speaker 1: the emotion of what's been discussed. How was the whole
[27:02] Speaker 1: court process.
[27:02] Speaker 2: For you, the defense lawyer? I mean, we thought it
[27:08] Speaker 2: would be over day dot because the opening line was
[27:12] Speaker 2: the triple low call, and like we were like, we
[27:15] Speaker 2: know who did it, so why do we need to
[27:17] Speaker 2: go through six weeks of court? Yeah, and then we
[27:19] Speaker 2: ended up having him to do another trial after that.
[27:22] Speaker 1: And you've mentioned the hung jury, and for people that
[27:24] Speaker 1: don't understand, that's where the jury members can't make a
[27:28] Speaker 1: unanimous decision on guilt or innocence and therefore the hung jury,
[27:32] Speaker 1: and invariably that means he's going to be another another trial.
[27:36] Speaker 2: Yeah, so we had to go through another trial that
[27:38] Speaker 2: was that was pretty crap.
[27:40] Speaker 1: What was like sitting in the court looking at aj.
[27:45] Speaker 2: He was very pan faced. He didn't look like it
[27:51] Speaker 2: was bizarre is probably a way to describe it. Just
[27:56] Speaker 2: I tried not to look at him, to be honest. Yeah,
[27:59] Speaker 2: but he was not happy as you would be, So
[28:05] Speaker 2: I think that was hard. It was, yeah, just I
[28:10] Speaker 2: don't know. All these things are flooding back now. Some
[28:13] Speaker 2: things have blocked out, a lot of things have blocked out.
[28:16] Speaker 2: I think looking up there, I'm like, just tell us
[28:19] Speaker 2: what happened, and he did get up and say something.
[28:22] Speaker 2: And I think seeing the other guys that you know,
[28:26] Speaker 2: had to bring in on the bus from the from jail,
[28:30] Speaker 2: they were kind of just as scary.
[28:32] Speaker 1: I guess my understanding, Correct me if I'm wrong. During
[28:37] Speaker 1: the second trial, AJ made the decision to plead guilty
[28:41] Speaker 1: on it. How did that make yourself and your family feel?
[28:47] Speaker 2: I mean, relieved, you know, nothing was going to bring
[28:50] Speaker 2: my brother back, but relieved that we had an ending.
[28:53] Speaker 1: Yep.
[28:54] Speaker 2: I'm of the understanding that that mum and dad were
[28:58] Speaker 2: pulled aside. I wasn't there that day and because I
[29:02] Speaker 2: had to work, and they were pulled aside and said
[29:07] Speaker 2: he can either go for murder or manslaughter, and he
[29:12] Speaker 2: could get away with murder or we could go for manslaughter.
[29:15] Speaker 2: And my mum just went, heck, no, we're going to
[29:19] Speaker 2: go for murder with the risks that he might get off.
[29:22] Speaker 1: So break this down. I'm surmising here, but I've seen
[29:26] Speaker 1: this before where and it's good that at least they're consulting
[29:29] Speaker 1: with the families, because I've seen it where the prosecution
[29:32] Speaker 1: don't consult with the families and or hell breaks loose.
[29:35] Speaker 1: But the prosecution speaking to your mum and dad and saying, well, yeah,
[29:42] Speaker 1: we could take manslaughter because he might beat murder. So
[29:48] Speaker 1: that's a terrible situation to be put in, and you're
[29:51] Speaker 1: not very informed on the nuances of the law, and
[29:55] Speaker 1: it's a horrible situation to be put in. But I'm
[29:58] Speaker 1: still glad that that they they were spoken about it.
[30:02] Speaker 1: What did they say.
[30:04] Speaker 2: I'm of the understanding that they were pulled aside and
[30:08] Speaker 2: they said he could either go for manslaughter and we
[30:10] Speaker 2: could agree to that and he would definitely go away
[30:13] Speaker 2: for you know, what is it eight years or whatever,
[30:17] Speaker 2: or if we go for murder, then he could possibly
[30:20] Speaker 2: get off and go not go he'd already been in
[30:23] Speaker 2: there for two years, right or more than that in
[30:25] Speaker 2: a second trial. So and mum just said, no, hell no,
[30:30] Speaker 2: he killed my boy, we're going for murder. And then
[30:32] Speaker 2: he played guilty. Yeah, yeah, that's my understanding.
[30:37] Speaker 1: Yeah, look at that would be how I could imagine that,
[30:41] Speaker 1: imagine that's playing out. So it doesn't surprise me. But
[30:45] Speaker 1: it's a horrible responsibility to put on the on the families,
[30:48] Speaker 1: isn't it.
[30:49] Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean we were like, I mean, I wasn't
[30:51] Speaker 2: there that day, but Dad was like, oh, we just
[30:54] Speaker 2: you know, he deserves to go away for some time
[30:56] Speaker 2: at least. But Mum was the one that just not happening.
[31:02] Speaker 1: What changes did you see in your parents going through
[31:04] Speaker 1: that process, because, as we spoke about earlier, it's the
[31:08] Speaker 1: worst thing that could happened to a parent. But then
[31:11] Speaker 1: the court matter and just like an ongoing nightmare.
[31:15] Speaker 2: I would imagine Mum's very stoic. She was there every
[31:19] Speaker 2: minute of every court every day. Dad some days he
[31:22] Speaker 2: just you know, it wasn't well enough, you know. And
[31:25] Speaker 2: that's a lot to go to every single day to court.
[31:29] Speaker 2: And of course, you know, all of us had to
[31:31] Speaker 2: kind of go back to work, and you know I would.
[31:34] Speaker 2: I was close by, so I was able to drop
[31:36] Speaker 2: in as much as I possibly can because I was
[31:38] Speaker 2: working in Surrey Hills at the time. So look there. Yeah,
[31:43] Speaker 2: I saw it affect my dad more than my mum.
[31:46] Speaker 2: But like I said, Mum's very stoic.
[31:48] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[31:49] Speaker 2: And all of my brothers and sisters have dealt with
[31:52] Speaker 2: things differently. I some some of my siblings have really
[31:57] Speaker 2: want to put this just behind them and they're just
[31:58] Speaker 2: happy to do that, where I don't know. Mum and
[32:01] Speaker 2: I are a bit like a dog with a bone, yea.
[32:04] Speaker 2: And Dad's just not checked out from it, but he
[32:08] Speaker 2: just we kind of spare him from that because he's
[32:11] Speaker 2: a bit like me with the emotional ones in the family,
[32:14] Speaker 2: whereas the others are not interesting.
[32:16] Speaker 1: You say that because you don't know how people are
[32:18] Speaker 1: going to deal with situations like that, and people choose
[32:23] Speaker 1: different ways. I often get asked whether I stay in
[32:27] Speaker 1: contact with family members of victims of homicide, and yes,
[32:32] Speaker 1: there's quite a few. Idea. There's others that I don't
[32:36] Speaker 1: speak to because I sort of leave the onus on
[32:38] Speaker 1: them because it's as a homicide detective if you come
[32:41] Speaker 1: into their life at the worst possible time, and possibly
[32:44] Speaker 1: the last thing they want is me phoning up every
[32:47] Speaker 1: twelve months saying hi, how are you, because it just
[32:49] Speaker 1: brings up the horror of what they went through. But
[32:52] Speaker 1: then there's others that like to stay in contact. So
[32:56] Speaker 1: it's understandable you're saying, even within your family, people will
[33:00] Speaker 1: dealing with it differently. Your mum and dad were dealing
[33:01] Speaker 1: with it differently because it's just and talking about it
[33:06] Speaker 1: like this, I want people to understand because quite often,
[33:09] Speaker 1: as you said, you read about a crime in the
[33:11] Speaker 1: paper and it's that day's news and then you sort
[33:14] Speaker 1: of move on and get on with the rest of
[33:17] Speaker 1: your life. So there's a big impact, isn't here.
[33:22] Speaker 2: Oh yeah, it completely changed our lives forever, Like I've
[33:26] Speaker 2: got PTSD from it. Yeah, and that doesn't go away.
[33:32] Speaker 1: With the sentencing when it came down. How long did
[33:36] Speaker 1: aj get when he was sentenced.
[33:39] Speaker 2: Eighteen years in eight months and he served fourteen years
[33:43] Speaker 2: so we got out last June.
[33:45] Speaker 1: How And I'm not talking in your capacity of the
[33:48] Speaker 1: advocacy work you do, and this is where I think
[33:51] Speaker 1: it's quite remarkable the type of work that you do
[33:54] Speaker 1: and what you've been through. But as Eden's sister, when
[33:58] Speaker 1: that came down the sentence, how did you feel personally?
[34:05] Speaker 2: Apparently apparently that was a good sentence, Like if we'd
[34:10] Speaker 2: got like five years or something like that, that would
[34:12] Speaker 2: have sucked. So it was a good, fair whack of
[34:15] Speaker 2: a sentence. You know, after doing my Serious Offender Review
[34:20] Speaker 2: Council work, when I see murders, I use that as
[34:24] Speaker 2: a benchmark all the time. So yeah, as in you know,
[34:29] Speaker 2: the extremity of the So so yeah, we were happy
[34:33] Speaker 2: with that, as happy as you could be, right, you know,
[34:37] Speaker 2: because as most people you know, should be away for
[34:40] Speaker 2: you know, killer life, go away for life. It just
[34:43] Speaker 2: doesn't happen that way.
[34:44] Speaker 1: Yeah, it's interesting sitting down and talking to someone that
[34:48] Speaker 1: it's so deeply affected by murder. And I have a
[34:50] Speaker 1: lot of people that, yeah, that's a narrative because of
[34:54] Speaker 1: the work I'm doing now, all the work I used
[34:56] Speaker 1: to do. And you know, if you take a life
[34:58] Speaker 1: that should be a mandatory life sentence, you're in a
[35:02] Speaker 1: unique position to have been impacted upon it personally having
[35:06] Speaker 1: your brother murdered and also working in the areas that
[35:10] Speaker 1: you work. And it's interesting that you say that you
[35:13] Speaker 1: don't believe in mandatory life sentencing.
[35:16] Speaker 2: It depends, Yeah, I don't. I think if there's reabilitation,
[35:21] Speaker 2: I mean there's some people.
[35:24] Speaker 1: Sorry because I want to clarify that so people don't
[35:26] Speaker 1: jump on board and bash me for being so there
[35:29] Speaker 1: are plenty of people and the rehabilitations one aspect that
[35:33] Speaker 1: I'm just talking from my point of view. You're the
[35:36] Speaker 1: work that you do, You've got more of an insight
[35:38] Speaker 1: than I have. But rehabilitations one side of it, but
[35:41] Speaker 1: there's also a protection of society that's got to come
[35:43] Speaker 1: into it too. And sometimes, okay, they might appear rehabilitated,
[35:48] Speaker 1: but we can't take the risk because the consequences are
[35:51] Speaker 1: too high.
[35:52] Speaker 2: Yeah, So the frustrating thing that I've found is that,
[35:56] Speaker 2: you know, they have a sentence, they have a parole period,
[35:59] Speaker 2: and there's you know, I've met serial killers, I've met
[36:03] Speaker 2: horrendous murderers who have done horrible, horrible, horrible crimes, and
[36:08] Speaker 2: their sentences finish and they get out. And so what
[36:13] Speaker 2: we do with the Serious of Offenders Review Council is
[36:16] Speaker 2: we try and help rehabilitate them back and integrate back
[36:19] Speaker 2: into the community by you know, obviously doing courses it
[36:24] Speaker 2: might be violent Offenders therapeutic program or you know, just
[36:29] Speaker 2: helping them to rehabilitate in the different class os they
[36:33] Speaker 2: call them within the jails. And so they do move
[36:36] Speaker 2: around a bit two different you knows, and we hope
[36:39] Speaker 2: that by the end of it they go from sort
[36:41] Speaker 2: of on remand A and then to a sentence, then
[36:45] Speaker 2: to B then see then see on and then see off.
[36:48] Speaker 2: That's our that's our goal. There's the steps of rehabilitation.
[36:54] Speaker 2: They don't always get there.
[36:56] Speaker 1: And explain to people that don't understand the system the
[37:00] Speaker 1: difference between serving your sentence and now on parole and
[37:03] Speaker 1: what the benefits one way or the other or Yeah.
[37:06] Speaker 2: So I know people have a lot of mixed feelings
[37:09] Speaker 2: about that, that people should just serve out their full sentence.
[37:14] Speaker 2: But what I've learned is that we really need to
[37:18] Speaker 2: have be able to monitor them within the community to
[37:22] Speaker 2: see if they because if those stuff aren't, you.
[37:24] Speaker 1: Know, you've got something hanging over their head. If there
[37:28] Speaker 1: is parole you can monitor. Because I've had this discussion
[37:32] Speaker 1: with people, and I understand the logic that, well, they
[37:36] Speaker 1: should serve their whole sentence. Why just because they behave
[37:38] Speaker 1: themselves in prison, why should they?
[37:40] Speaker 2: And I used to believe that too. I absolutely used
[37:43] Speaker 2: to believe that as well.
[37:44] Speaker 1: But there's small complex than that, because if they serve
[37:46] Speaker 1: their full sentence, we open the prison gates and they're
[37:49] Speaker 1: out and we can't monitor them. We don't have control
[37:52] Speaker 1: over they've served their sentence, they get out on parole.
[37:56] Speaker 1: There's a degree of monitoring.
[37:58] Speaker 2: Yeah, so that's the thing, I mean, that was my
[38:00] Speaker 2: thinking at the very beginning. They should they get twenty
[38:03] Speaker 2: five years, they stay in there for twenty five years.
[38:06] Speaker 2: But what I've learned through the Salk work is that
[38:10] Speaker 2: that reintegration part is really really important because you know,
[38:14] Speaker 2: they can go in there as animals and come out
[38:16] Speaker 2: as animals and then just reoffend. And how useful is that.
[38:20] Speaker 2: Whereas if we're able to monitor them and you know,
[38:25] Speaker 2: have that help them to reintegrate into the community. I mean,
[38:31] Speaker 2: some reoffend. There's a lot of recidiviism obviously, right, but
[38:38] Speaker 2: you know, and then there's you know, people like, well
[38:40] Speaker 2: why were they let out? And usually it's because their
[38:43] Speaker 2: sentences are up or and things like that.
[38:45] Speaker 1: So yeah, yeah, it's I think the way we look
[38:50] Speaker 1: at crime, it's and it comes around state election time
[38:53] Speaker 1: and law and order becomes an issue. We're going to
[38:56] Speaker 1: get tough on crime. We're going to increase penalties. We're
[38:59] Speaker 1: going to do this changes of legislation. Sometimes legislation does
[39:03] Speaker 1: need to be changed. Sometimes sentencing needs to be appropriate.
[39:07] Speaker 1: I don't believe in mandatory sentencing. But rather than get
[39:11] Speaker 1: tough on crime, would you agree that we're going to
[39:14] Speaker 1: get smart on crime rather than tough on crime?
[39:17] Speaker 2: I think prevention is really really important, and that's a
[39:22] Speaker 2: lot of the work that I do with my two
[39:25] Speaker 2: charities that I run. Let's try and prevent this happening
[39:29] Speaker 2: in the first place. So, yeah, let's help these young
[39:33] Speaker 2: women and men who are in the foster care system
[39:36] Speaker 2: because you know, either mom or dad's in jail or
[39:38] Speaker 2: there addicted to drugs or whatever. How can we help
[39:43] Speaker 2: prevent that happening. But I think that's where my work.
[39:48] Speaker 1: When I say smart on crime prevention is the ideal situation.
[39:54] Speaker 1: Everyone wins. If you can prevent crime, less victims and
[39:58] Speaker 1: lives aren't just throwing away and wasted in prison. If
[40:01] Speaker 1: we talk about the prison system, the costs associated with
[40:04] Speaker 1: keeping someone in Cussida, I think I heard figures banded
[40:08] Speaker 1: about that breakfast at Parliament House, and I've heard them before,
[40:11] Speaker 1: but I think it's a minimum of one hundred and
[40:14] Speaker 1: fifty thousand to keep an adult.
[40:16] Speaker 2: Prisoner, absolutely minimum. Yeah.
[40:18] Speaker 1: Yeah, so that we're talking one hundred and fifty thousand
[40:20] Speaker 1: dollars a year. Yeah, So just think about that. For
[40:23] Speaker 1: everyone that we put in jail, we're spending one hundred
[40:26] Speaker 1: and fifty thousand dollars. Now, what sort of diversionary programs
[40:31] Speaker 1: could be put in place with that type of money.
[40:34] Speaker 2: Oh yeah, absolutely, absolutely so, I mean it's just astounding
[40:39] Speaker 2: the figures. And you know, and kids in juvie as well,
[40:43] Speaker 2: they're really I think it's even higher, it's much higher.
[40:48] Speaker 2: So yeah, I mean it's astounding that those figures that
[40:52] Speaker 2: we as tax payers pay for. But you know, let's
[40:56] Speaker 2: face it, there are some people that need to be
[40:58] Speaker 2: locked up, and so yeah, yeah, that's that balance of
[41:01] Speaker 2: do we let them out on parole and monitor them,
[41:06] Speaker 2: which is going to be cheaper to the community, But
[41:08] Speaker 2: is it safer for the community.
[41:10] Speaker 1: Yeah, Well, the safety of the community's got to be paramount.
[41:13] Speaker 1: But if we can prevent crime, that's tapping into keeping
[41:16] Speaker 1: the community safe. It's not Yeah, it's not going soft
[41:20] Speaker 1: just because people aren't in prison. If we're keeping people
[41:23] Speaker 1: away from crime and the community safe. But I look
[41:26] Speaker 1: at the money, if you just look at it from
[41:28] Speaker 1: a monetary position, I'm thinking one hundred and fifty thousand,
[41:32] Speaker 1: and you give me someone that's off track, I reckon
[41:35] Speaker 1: I could wisely spend one hundred and fifty thousand and then
[41:37] Speaker 1: keep that person back on track with the money we
[41:41] Speaker 1: had Tim Watson Monroe on the podcast years Ago criminal psychologist,
[41:46] Speaker 1: vastly experienced, and he was working in paramount of prison
[41:50] Speaker 1: years ago, you know, a bygone era, and he was
[41:54] Speaker 1: making the point for all the money that's spent with
[41:56] Speaker 1: people in custody, you could basically have their own private
[41:59] Speaker 1: psychologists monitoring everything they do all day, amount of money.
[42:07] Speaker 1: Getting back to what happened to Eden and Aj once
[42:12] Speaker 1: he was sentenced? Did you think about him? Was it?
[42:17] Speaker 1: I'm just trying to a what you carried with your
[42:20] Speaker 1: once the sentencing, because that chapter in your life had
[42:25] Speaker 1: come to a conclusion, like the court matter and now
[42:28] Speaker 1: the persons serving jail. I've been chastised by victims where
[42:33] Speaker 1: I say we'll get we'll give you closure if we
[42:35] Speaker 1: put this person away. And I learned that very early
[42:37] Speaker 1: in my homicide career that you don't get closure from it.
[42:41] Speaker 1: But I just want to get a sense of your
[42:43] Speaker 1: getting on with your life. You're missing your brother because
[42:48] Speaker 1: the life has been stolen from you and someone's in prison.
[42:52] Speaker 1: How does it? How did you feel personally?
[42:57] Speaker 2: I think the unresolved part of why and we still
[43:01] Speaker 2: kind of have those questions. You're having a j on
[43:04] Speaker 2: he kind of gave us a little bit more clarity
[43:06] Speaker 2: around that that he didn't remember what happened, but there
[43:10] Speaker 2: were people there that them would have. So it's that
[43:15] Speaker 2: what the hell happened is still a big question mark
[43:17] Speaker 2: for us, you know, and I think that's always going
[43:22] Speaker 2: to be. We're not going to have closure until I'm
[43:26] Speaker 2: hoping that when AJ in years too, when he gets
[43:30] Speaker 2: when he can, I can sit down with him and ask.
[43:33] Speaker 1: Him, Well, you may made the comment before we started
[43:36] Speaker 1: the podcast that you're seeing in the seat that the
[43:38] Speaker 1: AJ was sitting in, and I apologize for that. It
[43:41] Speaker 1: must be confronting for you and that regards.
[43:44] Speaker 2: Yeah, it's all right, it's yeah. You just have to
[43:47] Speaker 2: deal with those things, right.
[43:48] Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, But weird other than this idiot X
[43:53] Speaker 1: cop Now podcast and me contacting you saying that we're
[43:57] Speaker 1: getting AJ on there. Did you were you aware when
[44:01] Speaker 1: he was released from prison? Had you were you notified
[44:04] Speaker 1: formally notified? Yeah? What happened? What happened there? And how
[44:08] Speaker 1: did you feel at that point?
[44:09] Speaker 2: Restorative Justice asked us and kept us informed of everything
[44:15] Speaker 2: that was happening. I actually went to the the bail
[44:17] Speaker 2: hearing in Paramatta and so that was he was up
[44:23] Speaker 2: on av obviously and and he Yeah, it was We
[44:27] Speaker 2: were informed every step of the way. Look, we had
[44:31] Speaker 2: heard that he had reformed himself, and so we I
[44:36] Speaker 2: don't think we had any qualms with him getting out.
[44:39] Speaker 2: It was just more that that he was going to
[44:43] Speaker 2: stay on track for us.
[44:45] Speaker 1: Were you asked to provide input or family thoughts before
[44:51] Speaker 1: the decision was made?
[44:53] Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, Mum and Dad did that.
[44:55] Speaker 1: And what what was their position?
[44:57] Speaker 2: They were happy for him to get out if he
[44:59] Speaker 2: if he had reformed himself.
[45:01] Speaker 1: So where do you as a family get that kindness from?
[45:07] Speaker 1: Because I, in all honesty, I would like to think
[45:10] Speaker 1: that I would be that that way in a set
[45:13] Speaker 1: of circumstances. And I'm sure other people would think they
[45:15] Speaker 1: can have that sort of genuine kindness understanding, empathy or whatever.
[45:20] Speaker 1: And I'm not putting that as a weakness by any mean.
[45:23] Speaker 1: But where where do you get that those values from? Well?
[45:27] Speaker 2: I think we when what's the saying, if you hold
[45:31] Speaker 2: on to resentment, it's like you're drinking poison and expecting
[45:36] Speaker 2: the other person to die. Like that's a good one.
[45:39] Speaker 2: One person has lost their life and one's willing to
[45:43] Speaker 2: make us, you know, take a second chance of his Yeah, yeah,
[45:47] Speaker 2: but yeah, my mum and dad are very empathetic. They're
[45:49] Speaker 2: lovely people and we've I don't know that's where I've
[45:52] Speaker 2: learned it from.
[45:53] Speaker 1: Well, it comes across. So it's full credit to them
[45:58] Speaker 1: as your parents and you because it can't have kind
[46:01] Speaker 1: of been easy. The advocacy work I want to talk
[46:05] Speaker 1: about later on in the podcast or in the next
[46:08] Speaker 1: portion of the podcast. But were you doing that when
[46:11] Speaker 1: at the time it's already doing it? Okay, So what
[46:15] Speaker 1: we're sort of jumped in and you're the expert on
[46:19] Speaker 1: prison sentencing and serial killers and all that. But you're
[46:22] Speaker 1: a teacher first up, weren't you?
[46:23] Speaker 2: Yeah? I was a high school teacher.
[46:25] Speaker 1: Okay, So there's a big step from going from a
[46:28] Speaker 1: high school teacher getting into the type of work that
[46:30] Speaker 1: you're doing. How did that happen?
[46:32] Speaker 2: So I was a performing arts teacher and I yeah,
[46:36] Speaker 2: I was. I loved my job. I had two sort
[46:38] Speaker 2: of parallels to my job. I had working with some
[46:41] Speaker 2: really really really talented students who went on to WHOPPERA
[46:46] Speaker 2: and not either and yeah, and this incredible job working with
[46:50] Speaker 2: these and you know, had such great relationships with their families,
[46:54] Speaker 2: and we had great rapport with those students after school
[46:57] Speaker 2: because so I worked ridiculous hours, but you know, we
[47:02] Speaker 2: had some great, fantastic results with the young And then
[47:06] Speaker 2: there was the other parallel of my job was that
[47:09] Speaker 2: I the other teachers thought I was a little bit crazy,
[47:12] Speaker 2: bit nuts, but I wanted to work with the students
[47:16] Speaker 2: who had who had behavioral problems, who were or who
[47:22] Speaker 2: were deemed as having behavioral problems with their schools. So
[47:25] Speaker 2: they were they weren't eight A or B or C.
[47:29] Speaker 2: They were you know, sort of further down the track.
[47:32] Speaker 2: So I was like, give me those classes. I absolutely
[47:35] Speaker 2: loved those working with those kids.
[47:37] Speaker 1: And what was it about that that you got so
[47:40] Speaker 1: much joy from ma?
[47:41] Speaker 2: Because their behavior is not them and I love the
[47:44] Speaker 2: challenge of their behavior and that I found that because
[47:48] Speaker 2: of the empathy that I do have and the persistence,
[47:51] Speaker 2: like they were pretty naughty some of them.
[47:54] Speaker 1: How old are we talking?
[47:55] Speaker 2: Oh, well, seven to twelve, but that usually it was.
[47:59] Speaker 1: Little shits at that stage.
[48:00] Speaker 2: Yeah right here right, they say always say year seven,
[48:03] Speaker 2: they're new in the school. Year eight. They started to
[48:07] Speaker 2: go a little bit fairer if they can. And they
[48:08] Speaker 2: year nines when they hit the and in year ten
[48:12] Speaker 2: they try and get back back on the track. So
[48:14] Speaker 2: that's kind of teacher language. But yeah, I absolutely loved
[48:19] Speaker 2: working with them because they would, oh they'd test me out. Yeah,
[48:22] Speaker 2: they would test me out.
[48:23] Speaker 1: But have you have you got an example without identifying
[48:26] Speaker 1: that the kid, but one kid that you thought, okay,
[48:28] Speaker 1: this kid he or she could slip through the gaps here,
[48:32] Speaker 1: and how it turned around and what what what it
[48:35] Speaker 1: did for you?
[48:36] Speaker 2: Yeah? Absolutely, I or lots of stories, lots of stories.
[48:39] Speaker 2: There was one particular guy and he he was huge,
[48:43] Speaker 2: he was he would bellow over me and he was
[48:46] Speaker 2: back in the days. It might have changed now, but
[48:47] Speaker 2: principals would swap when kids got expelled. They do swoppies.
[48:52] Speaker 2: So he came to the school and of course when
[48:55] Speaker 2: they come new to the school, they have their they've
[48:57] Speaker 2: got their bravado on and you know, trying to find
[49:00] Speaker 2: you put it on and test the teacher out. And
[49:03] Speaker 2: usually they would do that once and they would never
[49:05] Speaker 2: do it again. Because I was pretty strict but fair,
[49:08] Speaker 2: and I ended up having great report because I sat
[49:11] Speaker 2: him aside and I just said that what's going on
[49:13] Speaker 2: for you? And you know, he explained that life was
[49:17] Speaker 2: really really tough at at home, which is usually the case.
[49:22] Speaker 2: Nine times out of ten, there's something going on in
[49:23] Speaker 2: the background, whether it's abuse, neglect, trauma. And so he
[49:27] Speaker 2: was brilliant in my classes from then. And there was
[49:31] Speaker 2: once a week where I would actually go and see
[49:34] Speaker 2: another teacher and to have a coffee with her, which
[49:36] Speaker 2: was very rare, like teachers heat up their coffees like
[49:39] Speaker 2: seven times. You would have probably been the same as
[49:41] Speaker 2: a call, like hit your coffee up seven times a day.
[49:45] Speaker 2: And I went over and I would see him every
[49:47] Speaker 2: single time in the corridor and I'd say to him,
[49:50] Speaker 2: what have you done? Now? What have you done? Now?
[49:53] Speaker 2: What's happened?
[49:55] Speaker 1: Oh?
[49:55] Speaker 2: Miss she threw me up because of this, blah blah blah.
[49:58] Speaker 2: I said, well, you probably shouldn't have done that, but
[50:01] Speaker 2: you know what he did. And then one day he said,
[50:04] Speaker 2: I'm out here now because I didn't didn't get my
[50:07] Speaker 2: homework done. And I said, well, why didn't you get
[50:11] Speaker 2: your homework done? You know what was the problem? We said, Oh,
[50:13] Speaker 2: Dad beat mom up. Mum went off to hospital. Dad
[50:17] Speaker 2: went off to the cop shop, and I had to
[50:21] Speaker 2: go and stay with the neighbors. And then I still
[50:23] Speaker 2: had to get my siblings ready for school that morning,
[50:26] Speaker 2: and he started to cry. So I had to pull
[50:29] Speaker 2: him aside and big burly guy like, and so from
[50:36] Speaker 2: then on, I just you know, went to the school
[50:38] Speaker 2: counselor and I just said, look, we hit this kid
[50:40] Speaker 2: needs help, you know, we need to be able to
[50:42] Speaker 2: support him. Anyway, he did end up dropping out, but
[50:46] Speaker 2: he would sometimes come and visit me. Wow, yeah at school,
[50:50] Speaker 2: like maybe you're not supposed to be on the school campus,
[50:52] Speaker 2: but he would anyway. Years later, years later, I was
[50:56] Speaker 2: coming out of the gym at Bondo Junction and Spring
[50:58] Speaker 2: Street and I come out of a boxing class, spin
[51:02] Speaker 2: classes anyway, it was all sweaty and you know when
[51:04] Speaker 2: you finished it, you know, gross gross hair and this.
[51:09] Speaker 2: I could hear this, see this out of the corner
[51:13] Speaker 2: of my eye. This this kid running towards me. And
[51:16] Speaker 2: I was like, shit, what's going on? I mean, it
[51:18] Speaker 2: was busy, so I wasn't too scared. And he was
[51:21] Speaker 2: like miss, miss miss and I was like, oh, okay,
[51:25] Speaker 2: all right, it's the next student. It's fine. It bowed
[51:28] Speaker 2: me over and he said, can I give you a
[51:29] Speaker 2: big hug? You changed my life. I've got my I've
[51:32] Speaker 2: got a job at DAB high five. I'm now about
[51:36] Speaker 2: to be manager. And you know, I just wanted to
[51:39] Speaker 2: tell you that you changed my life. And he's like, I, miss,
[51:42] Speaker 2: I can give you stuffed discount, and so yeah, just
[51:47] Speaker 2: just yeah, that's that's one story.
[51:50] Speaker 1: That's that's a beautiful story. But this one kid, seriously,
[51:54] Speaker 1: like one kid's life changed just by you showing some
[51:57] Speaker 1: kindness and interests. And yeah, he so easily could have
[52:02] Speaker 1: been just dismissed as just to trump.
[52:04] Speaker 2: He would have ended up in jails or something like that,
[52:07] Speaker 2: not because of me, but because a link in the chain,
[52:10] Speaker 2: because we put him in touch with different services and
[52:13] Speaker 2: things like that. So but yeah, he was heading that
[52:16] Speaker 2: way like.
[52:17] Speaker 1: His dad, like his dad, And you wonder how many
[52:20] Speaker 1: kids are like that, And they're not They're not going
[52:22] Speaker 1: to come in and reveal all that to you unless
[52:25] Speaker 1: you take the time to sit down and just show it.
[52:27] Speaker 1: Must be the first bit of genuine interest he's seen.
[52:31] Speaker 1: So how important is that? I often hear about the
[52:36] Speaker 1: law and order issues with the state elections and that
[52:39] Speaker 1: and more money in policing, And yeah, you can you
[52:41] Speaker 1: can argue that case, but I honestly believe if we
[52:45] Speaker 1: want to make a difference in crime, pour it in
[52:47] Speaker 1: the education. How like the work that you were doing.
[52:51] Speaker 1: How important do you think it is for kids to
[52:53] Speaker 1: be educated, to give him self esteem to start.
[52:56] Speaker 2: Well, that's that's been the core of both my charity,
[53:00] Speaker 2: it is with working with young girls. So I went
[53:03] Speaker 2: on from teaching because I did see, you know, young
[53:07] Speaker 2: kids falling through the cracks of the welfare system and
[53:10] Speaker 2: the school system. And so I thought, well, where do
[53:12] Speaker 2: I start. Do I start with the boys, do I
[53:14] Speaker 2: start with the girls? And I thought, well, being a female,
[53:16] Speaker 2: I could probably you know, let's start with the girls.
[53:19] Speaker 2: And so yeah, I worked with that rich teenage girls
[53:21] Speaker 2: for seventeen years and so quite a few stories and
[53:25] Speaker 2: lots of success stories as well.
[53:28] Speaker 1: So we will talk about it, sister, the sister and
[53:31] Speaker 1: worry a woman and all the other stuff that you've
[53:34] Speaker 1: been doing. But twenty ten you had left schools and
[53:39] Speaker 1: you were working in the abuxacy space.
[53:42] Speaker 2: Two thousand and three.
[53:43] Speaker 1: Okay, so you've been doing it for a long long time.
[53:46] Speaker 1: When you were thrust into the justice system with the
[53:49] Speaker 1: murder of your brother, did that change your thinking at
[53:52] Speaker 1: all or did that sort of reinforce the importance of
[53:56] Speaker 1: the work that you're doing well.
[53:58] Speaker 2: I've been working in the space for a long time anyway,
[54:01] Speaker 2: so I've worked with a lot of girls in dog's
[54:03] Speaker 2: care and in and out of juvy and stuff like that,
[54:06] Speaker 2: so I was kind of aware of but with teenagers.
[54:09] Speaker 2: But Warrior Woman was born from my need and want
[54:14] Speaker 2: to help young women leaving the out of home care
[54:16] Speaker 2: system because and that was prompted by ag Kelly, my brother,
[54:21] Speaker 2: because he did grow I know he didn't mention it,
[54:24] Speaker 2: but he did. His foster care mum was there every
[54:27] Speaker 2: day at court and there's an emerging adulthood gap where
[54:34] Speaker 2: things can go incredibly wrong or incredibly right where I mean,
[54:38] Speaker 2: they've raised the age to twenty one from kids leaving
[54:40] Speaker 2: out of home care, which has been wonderful, but it
[54:42] Speaker 2: used to be eighteen and they've kind of just booted
[54:44] Speaker 2: out on their eighteenth.
[54:46] Speaker 1: Birthday and their babies.
[54:49] Speaker 2: And when they've been through abuse and trauma and foster
[54:53] Speaker 2: I worked with a lot of foster GA kids during
[54:55] Speaker 2: Sister to Sister. There are two to three years behind
[54:58] Speaker 2: in really important subjects like English and mouths. So when
[55:01] Speaker 2: they get to eighteen, you know they may well have
[55:04] Speaker 2: most of you know, dropped out of school. So going
[55:07] Speaker 2: back to the education, that's what we're really really important.
[55:11] Speaker 2: But yeah, the stats for young people leaving the out
[55:15] Speaker 2: of home care in Australia is, you know, two thirds
[55:18] Speaker 2: of the youth homeless population made up of young people
[55:21] Speaker 2: leaving the out of home care system and one in
[55:24] Speaker 2: two or one in three stats. Sometimes the stats very
[55:27] Speaker 2: that I read end up either unemployed, incarcerated which is
[55:33] Speaker 2: normally more so the boys than the girls, and homeless
[55:40] Speaker 2: or a first time parent within the twelve months of leaving. Yeah,
[55:45] Speaker 2: so that's you know, with everything that happened with AJ,
[55:47] Speaker 2: knowing he came from the foster care and his story
[55:50] Speaker 2: is obviously horrendous his upbringing, so I thought, well, I'll
[55:57] Speaker 2: start another charity.
[55:59] Speaker 1: Yeah, I can see why it would motivate you. If
[56:02] Speaker 1: you're looking at that, go and look at the pain
[56:05] Speaker 1: my family's gone through, and maybe if someone was in
[56:09] Speaker 1: there to help AJ, that pain could have been prevented.
[56:12] Speaker 1: So I understand where the motivation comes from. Let's take it,
[56:16] Speaker 1: take a break now, and then we'll delve deeply into worry.
[56:20] Speaker 1: A woman and assisted the sister and you work on
[56:24] Speaker 1: the Serious Offenders Review Board, because I think, honestly, I've
[56:30] Speaker 1: said this when I was in the cops, I thought,
[56:32] Speaker 1: you know, as a policeman, I'm making the difference of
[56:35] Speaker 1: resting people and all that. But I think it's people
[56:38] Speaker 1: like you, the quiet ones, just chipping away and making
[56:41] Speaker 1: the more of a difference to reduce crime than we
[56:44] Speaker 1: do in the police. And that's not being critical of
[56:46] Speaker 1: the police. We need police, and there's some great, great police,
[56:49] Speaker 1: but there's different ways of fighting crime, isn't there.
[56:52] Speaker 2: And reducing crime, yeah, I just think trying to prevent
[56:55] Speaker 2: it is the best, you know, which is not easy.
[56:57] Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, but we're gonna try. Okay, let's have a
[57:02] Speaker 1: break and we'll be back for part two. Cheers. M

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