# Pig butchering scams and human trafficking: SXSW Sydney Pt.1

An episode of [I Catch Killers with Gary Jubelin](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1506667049), 10 Jan 2026, 1 h 00 min.

Audio: https://p.podderapp.com/2544644999/traffic.omny.fm/d/clips/2fb3740d-3436-44af-8cc0-a91900716aa5/5bc8c2ed-b718-4f44-beb3-ac2a005246cc/3eae476e-796a-4797-aea7-b3cc0174daad/audio.mp3?utm_source=Podcast&in_playlist=786928c3-10c1-4cef-a7bf-ac2a005246d0

What are pig butchering scams? Are you at risk of online fraud? How can you keep yourself safe online? Gary Jubelin sat down with Tracy Hall at SXSW Sydney to shed some light on the global cyber syndicates and scams of the digital underworld. Listen to the past podcast episodes with Tracy Hall here and here. Learn more about Tracy Hall here, as well as Tracy's educational resources here. Want to hear more from I Catch Killers? Visit news.com.au. Watch episodes of I Catch Killers on our YouTube channel here. Like the show? Get more at icatchkillers.com.au Advertising enquiries: newspodcastssold@news.com.au Questions for Gary: icatchkillers@news.com.au Get in touch with the show by joining our Facebook group, and visiting us on Instagram or Tiktok. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

## Transcript

[0:01] Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.
[0:05] Speaker 1: Detective see aside of life the average person is never
[0:08] Speaker 1: exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop.
[0:11] Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.
[0:14] Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a
[0:16] Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,
[0:20] Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.
[0:23] Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories
[0:26] Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw
[0:28] Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some
[0:31] Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because
[0:34] Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.
[0:38] Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.
[0:46] Speaker 1: Welcome to another episode of I Catch Killers. This episode
[0:50] Speaker 1: was recorded live at the twenty twenty five South By
[0:54] Speaker 1: Southwest Conference at the Sydney International Convention Center. I co
[0:58] Speaker 1: hosted a session with Tracy. You might remember Tracy. She
[1:02] Speaker 1: appeared on I Catch Killers previously telling us about how
[1:06] Speaker 1: she became a victim of a notorious con man called
[1:09] Speaker 1: Hamish McLaren. Well, since that time, Tracy has made it
[1:12] Speaker 1: her business to be one step ahead of the scam artists.
[1:16] Speaker 1: In this highly informative conversation, Tracy tells us how people
[1:20] Speaker 1: can protect themselves and what to look out for. We
[1:23] Speaker 1: talked about the rise of AI driven scams, global cyber syndicates,
[1:28] Speaker 1: and modern fraud. It's quite frightening what she's got to say,
[1:32] Speaker 1: but I think it's well worth listening to. Okay, ladies
[1:38] Speaker 1: and gentlemen, we've been given the thumbs up, so we'll
[1:40] Speaker 1: get this underway. Good afternoon. Today Tracy and I will
[1:45] Speaker 1: be talking about an emerging crime trend. We're talking about
[1:49] Speaker 1: cyber security and some fascinating stories that Tracy's got, or
[1:55] Speaker 1: not stories, but insight into this global phenomenon. It's occurring
[2:01] Speaker 1: across all spaces where people are finding themselves victims of
[2:06] Speaker 1: AI driven fraud and scamsters. And there's no one in
[2:10] Speaker 1: this room that wouldn't be or potentially be affected by
[2:14] Speaker 1: this type of scamming and frauds. It's a changing world.
[2:18] Speaker 1: That's an evolving world, and that's what we're going to
[2:20] Speaker 1: be talking about today. Gary Jubilin's my name. I was
[2:24] Speaker 1: a major crime detective Chief Inspector with New South Wales
[2:27] Speaker 1: Police for thirty years and I spent twenty years as
[2:31] Speaker 1: a homicide detective. After leaving the police approximately five years ago,
[2:36] Speaker 1: I've working in the media, writing books and hosting a
[2:41] Speaker 1: true crime podcast called I Catch Killers. That's where I
[2:45] Speaker 1: first met Tracy, And I'm going to let Tracy introduce herself.
[2:49] Speaker 1: But Tracy came on the podcast as a guest and
[2:52] Speaker 1: she talked about how she was scammed in a despicable
[2:56] Speaker 1: crime of fraud that was committed upon her. But what
[3:00] Speaker 1: really impressed me about Tracy was how she responded to that.
[3:03] Speaker 1: And it's been a driving force for Tracy since that
[3:07] Speaker 1: time to learn about scammers, to learn about these fraudsters
[3:11] Speaker 1: and educate other people and prevent people from becoming a victim.
[3:15] Speaker 1: And I think it's an rapidly changing environment. And I
[3:19] Speaker 1: think what we're going to learn from Tracy today is
[3:22] Speaker 1: it's all listening to. So Tracy, do you want to
[3:24] Speaker 1: tell us a little bit about yourself?
[3:26] Speaker 2: Thanks? Gary.
[3:28] Speaker 3: For those who don't know this story, I met a
[3:31] Speaker 3: man on a dating app back in twenty sixteen, a
[3:34] Speaker 3: man by the name of Max Tavita, and he told
[3:38] Speaker 3: me he was a chief investment officer for a family office.
[3:41] Speaker 2: He lived in Bondai and.
[3:43] Speaker 3: We started an intimate, long term in real life relationship
[3:48] Speaker 3: that went on finily eighteen months. We took family holidays together,
[3:52] Speaker 3: we spent a lot of time together. And it wasn't
[3:55] Speaker 3: until about eighteen months later I woke up to a
[3:58] Speaker 3: Crime Stoppers video of an unidentified man being arrested outside
[4:02] Speaker 3: of his Bondi Beach apartment for swindling fifteen victims out
[4:06] Speaker 3: of seven point six million dollars. And that man was
[4:10] Speaker 3: my boyfriend, Max t Vita. Except it wasn't Max t Vita.
[4:14] Speaker 3: It was a man by the name of Hamish McLaren
[4:16] Speaker 3: and he happens to be one of the world's most
[4:17] Speaker 3: prolific comment So Hamish had stolen seven point six million
[4:22] Speaker 3: dollars from fifteen Australian victims. But the story actually first
[4:26] Speaker 3: broke in twenty nineteen when The Australian released the hip
[4:31] Speaker 3: podcast Who the Whole Is Hamish? I don't know if
[4:34] Speaker 3: anyone's heard of that yeah or listened to it, but
[4:38] Speaker 3: pretty much the investigative journalists that worked on that project
[4:42] Speaker 3: uncovered that Hamish had been at this crime for about
[4:44] Speaker 3: thirty years. He's never had another job, and he discovered
[4:49] Speaker 3: victims globally and estimates the amount of money that he's
[4:53] Speaker 3: stolen is around eighty to one hundred million dollars. So
[4:57] Speaker 3: Hamish was sentenced to sixteen years in pro for the
[5:00] Speaker 3: crimes he committed against the victims in Australia. It was
[5:04] Speaker 3: later reduced to twelve years with a non prog period
[5:08] Speaker 3: of nine years, and that nine years will be up
[5:10] Speaker 3: in July next year. So that's the short story, and.
[5:17] Speaker 1: Let me tell you that's an abbreviated story. But when
[5:21] Speaker 1: Tracy explains the story and the podcast and a book
[5:24] Speaker 1: that's been out, it's interesting when you look back at hindsight.
[5:28] Speaker 1: I know when I spoke to the first spoke to
[5:31] Speaker 1: Tracy on the podcast, it was almost like this happened.
[5:35] Speaker 1: This happened. Red flags that you were embarrassed by, and
[5:38] Speaker 1: you're thinking, why didn't I see this? Why didn't I
[5:40] Speaker 1: see that? But that is with the benefit of hindsight,
[5:43] Speaker 1: isn't it.
[5:43] Speaker 2: That's right?
[5:44] Speaker 1: And I think that's what we've got to be weary
[5:46] Speaker 1: of with the frauds and the type of schemes that
[5:49] Speaker 1: we're going to be talking about today, because the world
[5:51] Speaker 1: of crime is rapidly changing. Like back in the nineties,
[5:55] Speaker 1: the go to item for the bad guys was robbing banks,
[5:59] Speaker 1: robberies and stealing cash. The banks and the police woke
[6:03] Speaker 1: up to that and they made the targets harder, the banks,
[6:07] Speaker 1: better security, better systems in place, so that wasn't the
[6:11] Speaker 1: cash cow for the crooks. Then the drug syndicates evolved.
[6:16] Speaker 1: That was where to make money, and they're still making
[6:18] Speaker 1: a lot of money from drugs, but the borders are
[6:21] Speaker 1: getting harder and it's getting harder to make the money there.
[6:24] Speaker 1: Then we fall into this cyber type crime, the digital crime,
[6:28] Speaker 1: the AI driven the crime, and that's where the crooks
[6:32] Speaker 1: are operating now and we're all potentially victims to it.
[6:36] Speaker 1: And it's great to have someone like Tracy, and I'm
[6:39] Speaker 1: sorry what you went through, but as they say, you
[6:42] Speaker 1: know what, hard things that can forged in fire make
[6:46] Speaker 1: people stronger. We're fortunate that people like Tracy are really
[6:51] Speaker 1: actively looking at how we need to educate ourselves on
[6:55] Speaker 1: those type of crimes and how we need to prevent
[6:58] Speaker 1: these crimes from happening. But I can assure you no
[7:01] Speaker 1: one in this room's immune to the type of things
[7:03] Speaker 1: that we're going to be talking about. We can only
[7:06] Speaker 1: prepare ourselves a little bit better. So Tracy, just give
[7:10] Speaker 1: us a sort of macro view of what we're talking
[7:12] Speaker 1: about here. When I talk digital crime, when I talk
[7:15] Speaker 1: AI driven, what are we talking about and also on
[7:19] Speaker 1: a global scale, would be syndicates that operate.
[7:22] Speaker 3: Well, it's true because we like we're dealing with transnational
[7:27] Speaker 3: organized crime at an industrial level, so that means across border,
[7:32] Speaker 3: across every jurisdiction, you have organized crime syndicates that are
[7:38] Speaker 3: operating businesses, scam businesses to fool the world out of
[7:43] Speaker 3: what is currently about one trillion dollars a year, far
[7:46] Speaker 3: greater than the whole global illicit drug trade, far more profitable,
[7:51] Speaker 3: and it's operated digitally, and because everything's gone to digital,
[7:55] Speaker 3: it makes it very easy. So we had a joke
[7:57] Speaker 3: last year when we spoke, is that you know, you
[7:59] Speaker 3: kind of even come in to this country with an
[8:01] Speaker 3: apple without being taken into a room and for instance
[8:04] Speaker 3: and getting in serious trouble. But you can receive a
[8:07] Speaker 3: phone call from someone in the Philippines that can flank
[8:10] Speaker 3: like fleece your bank account in less than five minutes
[8:13] Speaker 3: and law enforcement can't do anything about it. So what
[8:17] Speaker 3: we're talking about is this industrialized scale level of crime
[8:21] Speaker 3: that is operated digitally and AI has superpowered or supercharged
[8:25] Speaker 3: it for these criminals, and they have been operated by well,
[8:31] Speaker 3: there are many, we'll go into probably the two main
[8:34] Speaker 3: ones today, but you know, Southeast Asia is just a
[8:39] Speaker 3: honeypot for these scammer compounds and they've been operated primarily
[8:43] Speaker 3: by Chinese Chinese organized crime. And what is happening is
[8:48] Speaker 3: that they're actually being operated by victims of human trafficking.
[8:52] Speaker 3: So you actually have two sets of victims in this case.
[8:56] Speaker 3: We might just bring up a slide that we've got
[8:59] Speaker 3: just to illust kind of the scale at what we're doing.
[9:03] Speaker 3: So if we look at the first one, pig butchering.
[9:06] Speaker 3: Has anyone heard of pig butchering scams? It's a pretty
[9:10] Speaker 3: brutal term for a brutal crime, and pig butchering actually
[9:16] Speaker 3: stems from a Chinese word, and forgive my pronunciation, but
[9:19] Speaker 3: the word is shah zupan, which literally translates to killing
[9:24] Speaker 3: pig game, essentially referring to the fact that the scammers
[9:28] Speaker 3: are basically fattening up their victims like a pick by
[9:32] Speaker 3: showing them false profits and then they put more money
[9:35] Speaker 3: in fatten fatt and fatten and then they slaughter the victim,
[9:39] Speaker 3: taking everything from them, effectively bleeding them dry. And this
[9:42] Speaker 3: is the way that these crimes are described, and they
[9:46] Speaker 3: are being carried out by victims of human trafficking that
[9:50] Speaker 3: have been lured into these compounds by false employment opportunities.
[9:55] Speaker 3: And a lot of these people come from regions where
[9:58] Speaker 3: economically they're really looking to get ahead in life, send
[10:02] Speaker 3: money home to their families, etc. So they take a
[10:04] Speaker 3: chance and they end up imprisoned in these compounds and
[10:08] Speaker 3: it is said to be one of the biggest human
[10:11] Speaker 3: trafficking events in history. So two sets of victims, the
[10:15] Speaker 3: scam victim and the human traffic victim. And what they
[10:18] Speaker 3: have access to in these compounds is, you know, there's data,
[10:22] Speaker 3: there's systems, there's resources, there's technology, there's AI that is
[10:26] Speaker 3: coming out of these compounds. It is said to be
[10:28] Speaker 3: two years ahead of anything that we've seen. They take
[10:30] Speaker 3: the brightest minds, and this is these other scams that
[10:34] Speaker 3: we're all receiving on our phones and in our email
[10:37] Speaker 3: in boxes every single day. I mean, who's received one
[10:39] Speaker 3: in the last few weeks. Who's been targeted? Yeah, pretty
[10:43] Speaker 3: much everybody. So this is what we're dealing with, and
[10:47] Speaker 3: I think it's important that we talk about these. A
[10:48] Speaker 3: lot of people in the industry don't like using this
[10:50] Speaker 3: term piplechering because it is a very brutal term, but
[10:54] Speaker 3: this is what we're dealing with. It is not some
[10:56] Speaker 3: opportunistic creep in a basement down the road that thinks
[11:00] Speaker 3: they can get fifty bucks.
[11:02] Speaker 2: Out of you.
[11:02] Speaker 3: This is organized crime at an industrial scale. So this
[11:07] Speaker 3: is one of them that we talk about a lot.
[11:09] Speaker 1: And from a law enforcement point of view, these type
[11:13] Speaker 1: of crimes are difficult to investigate because of the cross
[11:16] Speaker 1: jurisdictional issues, like crimes being committed overseas. There's a whole
[11:21] Speaker 1: range of barriers for making a simple investigation. So they're
[11:26] Speaker 1: sort of ahead of the game in that regards pig
[11:28] Speaker 1: butchering about getting the return and dragging the victim in.
[11:34] Speaker 1: What makes a victim susceptible to that type of that
[11:38] Speaker 1: type of crime, Like when someone dangles something in front
[11:41] Speaker 1: of in front of them and the victim goes, okay,
[11:44] Speaker 1: that might be this might be one of the legit ones.
[11:48] Speaker 3: Yeah, well, I think it's fair to say that we
[11:50] Speaker 3: are all susceptible. You've said that and I learned this
[11:53] Speaker 3: the hard way. I never thought I would be in
[11:55] Speaker 3: this position. I thought I was smarter than that. I
[11:58] Speaker 3: had a great education, I've traveled the world. I thought
[12:00] Speaker 3: I was pretty intuitive, and yet all of those things
[12:04] Speaker 3: did not help me out in my situation. What happens
[12:08] Speaker 3: with these scams, and this is where AI has actually
[12:10] Speaker 3: gone to a new level, is that these machines and
[12:14] Speaker 3: machine learning and the technology can actually scal the internet
[12:19] Speaker 3: and work out per person, what is going to be
[12:22] Speaker 3: the most effective scam for you, which will be different
[12:25] Speaker 3: to the one for you, which will be different to
[12:27] Speaker 3: the one for you. And there are playbooks that they
[12:30] Speaker 3: sell to each other, they give to each other they use,
[12:34] Speaker 3: which basically is a step by step guide of what
[12:38] Speaker 3: to say, what to do, how to react. It is
[12:42] Speaker 3: a business, it is operated like a business, and it
[12:46] Speaker 3: actually doesn't matter what your vulnerability is. Maybe you're a
[12:49] Speaker 3: single mum with two kids and you're tired and stretched.
[12:52] Speaker 3: Maybe that's your vulnerability. Maybe you're you know, a divorced
[12:57] Speaker 3: man of sixty five and look looking for some other
[13:00] Speaker 3: opportunity over here. Maybe you know there's just there is
[13:03] Speaker 3: a scam for everyone, And what the technology can now
[13:06] Speaker 3: do is actually find the scam that you are going
[13:09] Speaker 3: to be most susceptible to falling for. And I don't
[13:12] Speaker 3: like that word falling for because you are deceived and
[13:14] Speaker 3: coerced into these situations. So it actually we're all vulnerable.
[13:20] Speaker 3: Right in any given day, week, or month of the year,
[13:25] Speaker 3: something is going to happen to us that makes us vulnerable.
[13:27] Speaker 3: We might not have slept last night. Tiredness is a vulnerability.
[13:31] Speaker 3: We might be struggling with the cost of living in
[13:33] Speaker 3: a given month, that's our vulnerability. We might have had
[13:36] Speaker 3: a relationship breakdown, that's a vulnerability. We might have just
[13:40] Speaker 3: had a big night. You know, some of the best scams,
[13:42] Speaker 3: the most successful scams happen on early on a Saturday
[13:46] Speaker 3: or Sunday morning when they know that you've been out
[13:48] Speaker 3: the night before.
[13:49] Speaker 1: Well, I think the time that you came on the podcast,
[13:52] Speaker 1: I was winding because that weekend a Sunday morning. That
[13:55] Speaker 1: wake up on Sunday morning and something on my phone
[13:59] Speaker 1: that looking at it and lucky they didn't have a
[14:02] Speaker 1: big night on the Saturday night because I had a
[14:03] Speaker 1: clear head. Normally a Sunday morning they might have got me.
[14:06] Speaker 1: But I thought, no, this doesn't sound right, phone up,
[14:09] Speaker 1: and then all the hassles of canceling your accounts and
[14:12] Speaker 1: everyone's probably everyone's been through it once in their life
[14:16] Speaker 1: doing it in the hassle there bringing it back to
[14:18] Speaker 1: the time that you were schemed, and the whole elaborate plot.
[14:23] Speaker 1: I think what we don't understand is how motivated these
[14:26] Speaker 1: people are. Now. Tracy talked about the environment in which
[14:28] Speaker 1: they're growing up in or living in and the human trafficking.
[14:32] Speaker 1: They're highly motivated, and people are susceptible. It might be loneliness,
[14:36] Speaker 1: but the classic scam is invest this money and then
[14:41] Speaker 1: you get a return, and okay, it seems legit. You
[14:44] Speaker 1: start telling your friends it seems legit, like this has happened,
[14:47] Speaker 1: and then it gets bigger and bigger until the actual
[14:50] Speaker 1: they reveal themselves.
[14:52] Speaker 3: Yeah, So romance investment scames operate like that. They generally
[14:56] Speaker 3: forged your crypto platform and people invest to a victim.
[15:00] Speaker 3: Last week he lost seven hundred thousand dollars to a
[15:03] Speaker 3: romance baiting scam is what they're called. So meta man
[15:07] Speaker 3: on a dating app and they started a relationship, a
[15:11] Speaker 3: digital relationship, but he encouraged her to set up a
[15:15] Speaker 3: trading account on this crypto platform, which all looked very legitimate,
[15:19] Speaker 3: but of course it was a crypto platform that was
[15:23] Speaker 3: operated by one of these syndicates. She lost seven hundred
[15:25] Speaker 3: thousand dollars single one with three kids, So that's definitely
[15:29] Speaker 3: how those ones work. I mean, there are many many
[15:32] Speaker 3: scams that we're all familiar with. Hey, mom, you know
[15:36] Speaker 3: there's the E toll scam, There's the Australia post scam.
[15:39] Speaker 3: There is you know, Quantus. Obviously, today in the news
[15:42] Speaker 3: again the data was released by the ransom cyber criminals.
[15:50] Speaker 3: I don't know what we call them these days, but
[15:52] Speaker 3: you know that data has been released. So anybody who has,
[15:57] Speaker 3: you know, an account with Quantum is going to be
[16:01] Speaker 3: susceptible to being targeted by a scam. It may not
[16:03] Speaker 3: come from Quantus, your data is out there and they
[16:06] Speaker 3: will use that to sing legitimate. And this is what
[16:08] Speaker 3: it all is about, is using information that is out
[16:10] Speaker 3: there that they've bought off the dark web and targeting
[16:14] Speaker 3: a scam to you. That makes it feel more legitimate
[16:18] Speaker 3: and more real, and therefore you are more likely to
[16:20] Speaker 3: click the link to transfer the money to do.
[16:23] Speaker 2: What they want you to do.
[16:24] Speaker 3: It's all about social engineering and coercive grooming.
[16:27] Speaker 2: That is how it works.
[16:28] Speaker 1: Tracy, if I could speak for I think the average
[16:31] Speaker 1: person who doesn't get inundated with emails and messages on
[16:35] Speaker 1: your phone, on your computer and it's all life becomes
[16:38] Speaker 1: too hard and you're thinking is this legit? But it's
[16:40] Speaker 1: not legiti. It's a common off bank, and I think
[16:43] Speaker 1: it just wears people down the other aspect of this crime,
[16:46] Speaker 1: and I think we're changing. I think we're changing, but
[16:49] Speaker 1: still violent crime gets the attention from the police, that
[16:53] Speaker 1: gets the attention from the media, and that doesn't you know,
[16:56] Speaker 1: it's not as dramatically covered. If it's someone that you mentioned,
[17:00] Speaker 1: someone that's lost seven hundred thousand dollars. You see these
[17:04] Speaker 1: stories and occasionally they pop up that people have worked
[17:07] Speaker 1: their whole life and ready for retirement, then they've lost
[17:10] Speaker 1: their money. There's stories like this, and I think from
[17:13] Speaker 1: a law enforcement point of view, we're starting to see
[17:16] Speaker 1: the changing culture because, as I said, crooks that are
[17:19] Speaker 1: a creative lot. If the cops have worked out one
[17:22] Speaker 1: way of preventing the crime, they change their they made
[17:27] Speaker 1: operandi and that's what these frauds that are doing. Then
[17:31] Speaker 1: add the cocktail of AI. It's hard to keep up with,
[17:35] Speaker 1: isn't it.
[17:35] Speaker 3: Yeah, And it's interesting the point you make about law
[17:38] Speaker 3: enforcement not recognizing financial crime as severe as say, violent crime.
[17:45] Speaker 3: And what I've come to realize is that financial crime
[17:49] Speaker 3: to me seems like the only crime left in the
[17:52] Speaker 3: world where the victim is still blanked for what happened
[17:54] Speaker 3: to them. You shouldn't have clicked the link, you shouldn't
[17:57] Speaker 3: have sent that money. You shouldn't have you know, whatever
[18:01] Speaker 3: you've done to lose the money. And I think it
[18:04] Speaker 3: is natural as a victim you start to think that
[18:06] Speaker 3: about yourself as well. I know I certainly did, like
[18:08] Speaker 3: how could I be so stupid? Why did I do that?
[18:11] Speaker 3: Why didn't I ask another question? And the way in
[18:14] Speaker 3: which the media reports.
[18:15] Speaker 2: It is exactly the same.
[18:16] Speaker 3: So headlines that were written about me were things like
[18:20] Speaker 3: Tracy's dashing investor boyfriend single mum loses three hundred and
[18:24] Speaker 3: seventeen thousand dollars.
[18:26] Speaker 2: All the red flags Tracy Hall missed.
[18:29] Speaker 3: And you know, if you want to correct that and
[18:32] Speaker 3: write it in the way that it should be, in
[18:33] Speaker 3: the same way that we've changed the narrative around violent
[18:37] Speaker 3: sexual crimes from what was she wearing, how late at night?
[18:40] Speaker 1: It was?
[18:40] Speaker 3: How many drinks has she had to He wasn't dashing.
[18:45] Speaker 3: He's actually a criminal. I didn't lose the money, he
[18:48] Speaker 3: stole it from me. And all the red flags I missed, well,
[18:51] Speaker 3: they were expertly disguised behaviors designed to manipulate and deceive me.
[18:57] Speaker 3: So there is a way for us to go from
[18:59] Speaker 3: a media perspective, but also from a law enforcement perspective,
[19:03] Speaker 3: because quite often these crimes are seen as a civil matter.
[19:07] Speaker 3: So it's very, very unusual to have this type of
[19:09] Speaker 3: crime go through the criminal courts like I was lucky.
[19:12] Speaker 2: I was lucky.
[19:14] Speaker 3: But everyone else who's losing money to financial crime, especially
[19:18] Speaker 3: transnational where it's cross border, cross jurisdiction and it's digital,
[19:22] Speaker 3: the police are really ineffective. I mean there's nothing they
[19:26] Speaker 3: can do in a certain sense.
[19:28] Speaker 1: Yeah, well, it's a very difficult situation where someone comes
[19:31] Speaker 1: in there. If you're investigating a robbery, I've been robbed, Okay,
[19:35] Speaker 1: what happened there was a person ran in, took the money.
[19:39] Speaker 1: The local inquiry has happened there. But when it's cross
[19:42] Speaker 1: jurisdictional and into some of the countries where these scams
[19:46] Speaker 1: are being generated from You could send an inquiry off
[19:50] Speaker 1: to into Parliament, you could take twelve months before they
[19:53] Speaker 1: even respond to it, if they respond to it, and
[19:56] Speaker 1: then you've got some places where it's been generated from
[19:59] Speaker 1: the city and within itself is corrupt, so the likelihoods
[20:03] Speaker 1: of following it through and I'm just thinking of all
[20:06] Speaker 1: the excuses running through a mind as a form of
[20:08] Speaker 1: police officer, but they are legitimate barriers to investigating the crime.
[20:13] Speaker 1: I know the AFP have been doing a lot of
[20:14] Speaker 1: work and we're trying to break down the barriers between
[20:18] Speaker 1: the state police so there's a more freedom of communication
[20:22] Speaker 1: and transfer all of information. But it's such a difficult,
[20:26] Speaker 1: difficult crime to investigate.
[20:27] Speaker 3: It is really difficult and difficult to prosecute. So from
[20:30] Speaker 3: a victim's point of view, you never see justice. These
[20:33] Speaker 3: people who have lost life savings, This woman who lost
[20:36] Speaker 3: seven hundred thousand dollars last week, she will never ever
[20:39] Speaker 3: see justice, and so there's no closure. And there's a
[20:42] Speaker 3: whole bunch of other things we could talk about in
[20:44] Speaker 3: terms of victims support for financial crime victims, but I
[20:47] Speaker 3: think that's one of the hardest is that you never
[20:49] Speaker 3: see these things come to justice.
[20:51] Speaker 1: And I think we've been in this room long enough now,
[20:54] Speaker 1: and you've heard Tracy talk. She's not naive. She didn't
[20:57] Speaker 1: go into this relationship with blinkers on. These things can
[21:01] Speaker 1: happen and people are highly motivated. I don't think I
[21:06] Speaker 1: can stress that enough that you don't realize the mind
[21:09] Speaker 1: of a crook. If they're onto something, how hard they
[21:11] Speaker 1: work for it. If they put there's much effort into
[21:13] Speaker 1: doing it on the stage work, they probably wouldn't have
[21:15] Speaker 1: to do all the scams, but that is the nature
[21:19] Speaker 1: of it. There's another particular crime that in our discussions
[21:23] Speaker 1: you were talking about, and I refer to it as
[21:26] Speaker 1: the Yahoo Boys, But this is when we're talking consequences
[21:30] Speaker 1: of crime. Have a listen to what's happening here and
[21:33] Speaker 1: the concerns that we all all should have that we
[21:36] Speaker 1: all know young children and the exploitation of children through
[21:39] Speaker 1: this crime.
[21:40] Speaker 3: Yeah, we've got another visual for this one as well.
[21:43] Speaker 3: So this is the criminal syndicate that frightens me the
[21:47] Speaker 3: most right now. Has anyone heard of Yahoo Boys.
[21:51] Speaker 2: One hand? One hand? Yeah, this is one that you
[21:55] Speaker 2: might want to know about.
[21:57] Speaker 3: They are a group of sophisticated cyber criminals operating out
[22:02] Speaker 3: of West Africa, primarily Nigeria, and they conduct a lot
[22:07] Speaker 3: of scams, but mostly romance scams and sextortion scams and
[22:11] Speaker 3: sex stortion. You know, is one that you've probably all
[22:15] Speaker 3: heard of. But one of their main targets is teenagers.
[22:19] Speaker 3: And what they do is they create hundreds and hundreds
[22:22] Speaker 3: of profiles of beautiful men and women and then they
[22:24] Speaker 3: bomb social media sites or basically anywhere where kids hang out,
[22:29] Speaker 3: and they start conversations with them basically using DM functionality,
[22:33] Speaker 3: disappearing messages, any type of functionality that allows them to
[22:37] Speaker 3: sort of operate undercover, and they build hyper intimate relationships
[22:42] Speaker 3: very very quickly, and they entice the victim to send
[22:47] Speaker 3: a nude or an illicit video, and once they have
[22:50] Speaker 3: that content, they then threaten to share or release that
[22:54] Speaker 3: content with school friends, family, employers, and social media followers.
[23:01] Speaker 2: And if the victim sends.
[23:03] Speaker 3: Money or a gift card, then they just simply to
[23:08] Speaker 3: continue to threaten release of the content, demanding more.
[23:11] Speaker 2: Now, this sounds like it's.
[23:13] Speaker 3: Happening in far away countries, in dark places of the Internet,
[23:18] Speaker 3: not close to home, but it is the most rapidly
[23:21] Speaker 3: growing crime targeting teenagers in Australia, Canada, the UK and
[23:25] Speaker 3: the US because our teens are highly digital and because
[23:29] Speaker 3: most of them have a bit of money in a
[23:30] Speaker 3: bank account, and what they do is even if the
[23:35] Speaker 3: child has not sent a neod, because a lot of
[23:37] Speaker 3: parents will go, well, my kid would never send a nude.
[23:40] Speaker 3: You don't even have to. They'll scrape a picture of
[23:43] Speaker 3: social media or take a selfie and then they'll basically
[23:46] Speaker 3: put it through a new toify tool and create a
[23:49] Speaker 3: very realistic deep fake and threaten to share that. And
[23:53] Speaker 3: this is escalated incredibly in the last five years. In Australia,
[23:57] Speaker 3: reports to E Safety, you've gone up thirteen hundred percent.
[24:00] Speaker 3: In the US between twenty twenty three and twenty twenty four,
[24:03] Speaker 3: they went up seven two hundred percent. Sadly, in the
[24:07] Speaker 3: last eighteen months, fifty boys across those countries have chosen
[24:12] Speaker 3: to die by suicide because they've been sexually extorted. The
[24:15] Speaker 3: youngest was twelve. It is so frightening what is happening.
[24:20] Speaker 3: I saw it playing out on my daughter's phone earlier
[24:23] Speaker 3: this year. I confiscated her phone don't ASKO and during
[24:29] Speaker 3: the time I had her phone, I went through every
[24:32] Speaker 3: piece of content. I went through every app, I went
[24:34] Speaker 3: through every conversation, and I got to Snapchat, and I'm
[24:38] Speaker 3: not of the Snapchat generation. I don't have Snapchat, so
[24:41] Speaker 3: I went deep and she was getting friend requests from
[24:45] Speaker 3: randoms with no mutuals, and you know, I decided just
[24:49] Speaker 3: to start pretending to be her, and I was accepting
[24:51] Speaker 3: these friend requests, and within minutes the script came exactly
[24:56] Speaker 3: the same from all of these different contacts. Now, these
[24:59] Speaker 3: people were pretending to be fifteen year old boys from
[25:01] Speaker 3: the next suburb.
[25:03] Speaker 2: They were not.
[25:04] Speaker 3: I can tell you they were the Yahoo Boys because
[25:06] Speaker 3: I can see the scripts I've researched. I know that
[25:08] Speaker 3: they were Yahoo Boys or someone operating like these criminals do.
[25:14] Speaker 3: And essentially, the conversation is the same every time, Hi,
[25:19] Speaker 3: how are you, how old are you?
[25:21] Speaker 2: Where do you live? What school do you go to?
[25:23] Speaker 3: They're the qualifying questions, and then they'll just mirror back,
[25:26] Speaker 3: you know, they'll know what a local school is in
[25:29] Speaker 3: that area, they're about the same age, someone of the
[25:32] Speaker 3: opposite sex, and then it turns very quickly to things
[25:35] Speaker 3: like WDYLLL does anyone know what that stands for? Anyone
[25:41] Speaker 3: have teenagers? This is a fun game to play what
[25:45] Speaker 3: do you look like? Which is essentially an invitation to
[25:48] Speaker 3: send a selfie and it goes from there. Dys is
[25:52] Speaker 3: the other one? Any one know that one? Do you send?
[25:57] Speaker 3: An invitation to respond to do you send? So it's
[26:02] Speaker 3: just exactly the same every time. Now they have a
[26:04] Speaker 3: script because the script works, and this is something that
[26:08] Speaker 3: escalates within hours, not days, not weeks, not months. This
[26:12] Speaker 3: will escalate within ours to the point where these children
[26:16] Speaker 3: are so afraid, so ashamed, and so embarrassed that they
[26:19] Speaker 3: would choose to take their own life. So this is
[26:21] Speaker 3: one that I feel incredibly passionate about and I think
[26:25] Speaker 3: we all need to know about it.
[26:27] Speaker 1: Well, just on a couple of things that you said there,
[26:30] Speaker 1: and I'm processing it through my mind as you're talking
[26:34] Speaker 1: about and looking in the audience, I could see them
[26:36] Speaker 1: all thinking the same thing. How easy it is? It
[26:40] Speaker 1: like sending to your daughter's vane someone, Oh, oh that's great.
[26:44] Speaker 1: You're in the school next door, We live in the
[26:46] Speaker 1: suburb next door, and kids just respond. They're not looking
[26:50] Speaker 1: at the world with fear like we do asults. You've
[26:55] Speaker 1: seen that what can happen. So this innocence is being
[26:58] Speaker 1: exploited and just thinking, oh, they're just friendly people. We've
[27:01] Speaker 1: got friendly people. Yeah, that's frightening, it.
[27:04] Speaker 2: Is, and other things.
[27:05] Speaker 3: You know, this is where social engineering comes into it,
[27:07] Speaker 3: and they're all based on social engineering. It's not the
[27:10] Speaker 3: technology that's, you know, necessarily the most evil thing, it's
[27:13] Speaker 3: the social engineering tactics. So things like, you know, a
[27:18] Speaker 3: brand will drop into someone's DMS or a child's DMS
[27:21] Speaker 3: and say, hey, really like the way you look and
[27:23] Speaker 3: you know, your whole vibe. We're looking for ambassadors. Can
[27:26] Speaker 3: we send you some clothes? And you know, every fifteen
[27:30] Speaker 3: year old girl in the history of ever would go,
[27:32] Speaker 3: oh my god, I'm going to be an influencer.
[27:34] Speaker 2: Amazing.
[27:35] Speaker 3: The next thing comes back. We just need a few picks,
[27:38] Speaker 3: and then it goes from there. We just need a
[27:40] Speaker 3: few picks in your bikini. We just need a few
[27:42] Speaker 3: picks in your sports gear. And that's where it starts.
[27:45] Speaker 3: So that's when you wouldn't even think. It's just completely
[27:47] Speaker 3: thrown them off track and they think there's an opportunity
[27:50] Speaker 3: to be an influencer. I mean, who wouldn't be excited
[27:53] Speaker 3: by that? And so they're not thinking logically.
[27:56] Speaker 1: And then then you think and wind it back to
[27:59] Speaker 1: when you're a teenager. The shame that you'd feel if
[28:03] Speaker 1: all your friends contacts they're going to they're threatening to
[28:06] Speaker 1: send nudes out to you, all your contacts, your parents,
[28:09] Speaker 1: everyone that you know. That's and the rate of taking
[28:13] Speaker 1: their own lives is just as frightening, isn't It's so sad.
[28:17] Speaker 1: There was one that you pointed me to on the
[28:20] Speaker 1: Spotlight I think it was, And how quickly, how quickly
[28:24] Speaker 1: it happened, If anyone has seen that particular segment on
[28:28] Speaker 1: the show Spotlight, a young kid, happy, healthy, They reached
[28:33] Speaker 1: out and they got him caught up in the scam
[28:36] Speaker 1: and threatened to send nude photos that they had of him,
[28:41] Speaker 1: and he went and killed himself. He just was terrifying
[28:46] Speaker 1: listening to the parents and how quickly he went from
[28:49] Speaker 1: played football that afternoon, was happy, all going well, and
[28:53] Speaker 1: then all of a sudden just sort of gone to
[28:56] Speaker 1: his room and the next thing they knew, he was dead.
[28:59] Speaker 3: Yeah, this is not an uncommon story.
[29:02] Speaker 1: Yeah, where do these the Yahoo boys? Where are they
[29:06] Speaker 1: based and what's their story?
[29:07] Speaker 3: They're based out of West Africa, primarily Nigeria, and the
[29:11] Speaker 3: challenge with these ones are it's not so much organized
[29:14] Speaker 3: crime in the way that Me and mar and Camboda
[29:16] Speaker 3: in Southeast Asia in terms of the pig butchering, but
[29:19] Speaker 3: it's seen as a very aspirational career for these boys.
[29:23] Speaker 3: So if we just flick through to the next slide, please, Essentially,
[29:27] Speaker 3: it's flaunted on social media in terms of the lifestyle
[29:32] Speaker 3: that you will have if you become Yahoo Boy, and
[29:36] Speaker 3: BM is a format they call it BM format, which
[29:39] Speaker 3: is Black Male format. The fourth screen along there are
[29:43] Speaker 3: all the different scripts that are targeted depending on the
[29:47] Speaker 3: particular victim. And you know, essentially you can go on
[29:51] Speaker 3: to Facebook now and join a Yahoo Boy group and
[29:55] Speaker 3: you can learn how to be a Yahoo Boy, So
[29:58] Speaker 3: it is not hidden at all. It is seen as
[30:03] Speaker 3: very aspirational. They are flaunting their wealth. And again these
[30:08] Speaker 3: are people from incredibly poor backgrounds and poor countries, so
[30:11] Speaker 3: you can see how, I don't know, you could see
[30:14] Speaker 3: how somebody might want to get into that. But the
[30:18] Speaker 3: problem is in sharing all of this information, it just
[30:21] Speaker 3: proliferates it and they share what works, and they share
[30:24] Speaker 3: the data, and they share the playbooks, and so our
[30:27] Speaker 3: kids are being targeted with these things that are very
[30:30] Speaker 3: very successful and it just keeps going, and it keeps going.
[30:34] Speaker 3: So what we have to do is break the cycle,
[30:36] Speaker 3: teach our kids how to view these things. My daughter's
[30:39] Speaker 3: fifteen now, I have no problem showing her the darkest
[30:43] Speaker 3: things that I see because she's got no idea.
[30:47] Speaker 2: They just we do believe.
[30:48] Speaker 3: I mean, we live in this beautiful, safe country and
[30:53] Speaker 3: we don't imagine that these things exist, and so we trust.
[30:56] Speaker 3: What we see in the price of trust for some
[30:58] Speaker 3: families is a child. And so I think there's some
[31:03] Speaker 3: education to be done.
[31:04] Speaker 1: Well, we talk and this is the evolving world. Like
[31:08] Speaker 1: we talk about how we educate kids to warn them
[31:11] Speaker 1: of danger as they were growing up in all the
[31:14] Speaker 1: pre digital digital world. But what they've got now, and
[31:18] Speaker 1: it is the responsibility of the generation with kids now
[31:21] Speaker 1: to educate the kids of what potentially could happen. There's
[31:25] Speaker 1: another aspect of it. We're talking about children that have
[31:29] Speaker 1: grown up with the digital world. Then you've got the elderly.
[31:32] Speaker 1: Like the elderly that everything is just frightening to them.
[31:36] Speaker 1: They do not understand what's going on. And I can
[31:40] Speaker 1: speak for my mother, not to not to embarrass her,
[31:43] Speaker 1: but the amount of times she's been caught in the
[31:45] Speaker 1: early days of scamming where people are just phoning up
[31:48] Speaker 1: and I seem like a lovely person and he's very
[31:51] Speaker 1: interested and he won them a day to birth and
[31:54] Speaker 1: then passwords and the okay change the accounts. That happens
[31:58] Speaker 1: to people because there is a trust. What where are
[32:01] Speaker 1: they targeting the elderly people that simply don't know how
[32:05] Speaker 1: to manage the digital world?
[32:06] Speaker 3: Yeah, everywhere, I mean through emails, through text messages, through
[32:10] Speaker 3: phone calls, and talk about AI technology, you're looking at
[32:14] Speaker 3: real time deep fake voice clones. So somebody could scrape
[32:19] Speaker 3: my voice off some social media posts I've done and
[32:22] Speaker 3: create a script and basically call my mom and have
[32:25] Speaker 3: it sound like me and you know they're hearing. Is
[32:29] Speaker 3: not as great as it used to be. So even
[32:31] Speaker 3: those small technical glitches, as the technology is catching up,
[32:34] Speaker 3: it still sounds like me. And so there are things
[32:37] Speaker 3: like that, so where you kind of think, okay, well,
[32:40] Speaker 3: if I'm on the phone to you mom, it's going
[32:42] Speaker 3: to be okay. They can fake your voice. So the
[32:44] Speaker 3: technology is getting to a point where I know a
[32:48] Speaker 3: lot of you know, my mom and her friends, they're
[32:52] Speaker 3: almost afraid to open a text message, open an email,
[32:55] Speaker 3: click on a link, even things that are legitimate, they
[32:58] Speaker 3: won't engage with, which is a real challenge for brands
[33:01] Speaker 3: as well, like how do we actually engage with our
[33:04] Speaker 3: customers in a world where people don't trust what's coming
[33:07] Speaker 3: out them because they're so scared. And that's where I
[33:09] Speaker 3: think education is really important and we will get to it.
[33:13] Speaker 3: But you know, they're so fit. You want you don't
[33:16] Speaker 3: want them to be afraid. You want them to be empowered,
[33:18] Speaker 3: but they also have to be aware, and I think
[33:21] Speaker 3: it's getting to a point where they're gone from yes,
[33:24] Speaker 3: he seems like a nice man, I will give him
[33:26] Speaker 3: my passport details to I'm not even going to open
[33:29] Speaker 3: a text message because I'm too scared about what's going
[33:31] Speaker 3: to come at me, and I'm too scared about banking
[33:34] Speaker 3: online and all of those things.
[33:35] Speaker 1: So and you don't want them living that way or
[33:38] Speaker 1: living their life that way, because that's they're not enjoying
[33:42] Speaker 1: and experiencing life as much as much as they can do.
[33:45] Speaker 1: We talk about well, we've talked about the type of
[33:49] Speaker 1: crimes and the AI aspect of it really scares me,
[33:52] Speaker 1: like that super intelligence that's coming that, how are we
[33:56] Speaker 1: going to keep up with it. But let's talk now
[33:59] Speaker 1: about some of them, the things or strategies that you
[34:02] Speaker 1: think can be put in place and dumb it down
[34:05] Speaker 1: for everyone. I lost my wallet on the way here today.
[34:08] Speaker 1: I left it in the uber that helped me out
[34:12] Speaker 1: idiots like me. I'm tracking it down. Don't worry. I
[34:15] Speaker 1: used to be a detective. I will find it.
[34:18] Speaker 2: At least you didn't lose your phone.
[34:20] Speaker 1: And that's the first thing you said, at least it
[34:22] Speaker 1: was in your phone, and I always thought wallet. But
[34:25] Speaker 1: I would be mortified if I lost my phone. That
[34:27] Speaker 1: would probably cause me more problems. So the main thing
[34:30] Speaker 1: is check your back pocket when you get out of
[34:32] Speaker 1: the uber and don't lose That's step one who says
[34:35] Speaker 1: you're not going to learn coming to this door. You
[34:38] Speaker 1: take it from there. That's my advice, I think.
[34:43] Speaker 3: And we do have another slide, But I wanted to say,
[34:44] Speaker 3: first of all, the most intelligent thing that we can
[34:47] Speaker 3: do when it comes to scams and fraud is to
[34:50] Speaker 3: humbly accept that it could happen to us. I think
[34:53] Speaker 3: the moment we accept that it could happen to us
[34:56] Speaker 3: is the moment that we start to be more aware
[34:58] Speaker 3: and more vigilance. So that being the stuff arting point.
[35:01] Speaker 3: The second thing I want to say too is that
[35:05] Speaker 3: the most powerful weapon in a scammer's toolkit it's not
[35:09] Speaker 3: actually technology, it's psychology. So we have to be aware
[35:13] Speaker 3: of our vulnerabilities, our biases, and how we can get
[35:16] Speaker 3: hacked as humans. So there's this beautiful line that says
[35:19] Speaker 3: scammers don't hack systems, they hack people. Now, relating this
[35:25] Speaker 3: back to the Quantas example, again, the hackers didn't get
[35:30] Speaker 3: into the Quantus system. They made a phone call to
[35:33] Speaker 3: a third party supplier and they hacked a human. They
[35:37] Speaker 3: basically use social engineering tactics to get the human to
[35:41] Speaker 3: give them access to a system, and that's how that
[35:44] Speaker 3: data was taken. So everyone thinks it's a cyber attack
[35:48] Speaker 3: and they hacked into a system and they had amazing technology.
[35:50] Speaker 2: No they didn't.
[35:51] Speaker 3: They made a phone call. So humans are the weakest link.
[35:55] Speaker 2: Sadly.
[35:57] Speaker 3: Now, with all of that being said, education and awareness
[36:00] Speaker 3: is key, But I would be brave enough to say
[36:04] Speaker 3: that I don't think it's been done well enough. I
[36:07] Speaker 3: don't think it's enough to put a banner on a
[36:10] Speaker 3: banking app. I don't think it's enough to send an
[36:12] Speaker 3: obligatory email with a couple of points that kind of
[36:15] Speaker 3: broadly talk about what to watch out for. I think,
[36:18] Speaker 3: especially as we talk about seniors and we talk about
[36:20] Speaker 3: our children, we have to show, not tell. Now, if
[36:24] Speaker 3: you read somewhere, or a senior reads somewhere, set up
[36:27] Speaker 3: your biometric two factor authentication. Now, some people we might
[36:33] Speaker 3: know what that is. My mum would have no idea.
[36:36] Speaker 3: She'd go, what is two factor or authental?
[36:38] Speaker 1: What?
[36:39] Speaker 2: Now?
[36:40] Speaker 3: When I show her and I show her what the
[36:42] Speaker 3: difference between a biometric one and a password is, then
[36:45] Speaker 3: she understands and she can do that. But then I
[36:48] Speaker 3: also have to say, mom, never use your voice to verify?
[36:51] Speaker 2: Oh why not?
[36:53] Speaker 3: Then I have to go into that and I have
[36:54] Speaker 3: to show her that how to use a reverse image search. Now,
[36:59] Speaker 3: a lot of scene are online. They're playing a lot
[37:01] Speaker 3: of games, they're buying things on marketplace, maybe they're even
[37:05] Speaker 3: online dating. Now, teaching a senior how to use a
[37:08] Speaker 3: reverse image search is one of the most invaluable tools
[37:12] Speaker 3: you can teach them. But you can't just say, do
[37:14] Speaker 3: a reverse image search. They would not know where to start.
[37:18] Speaker 3: So we have to show them. We have to sit
[37:19] Speaker 3: with them and show them once they do it, they
[37:21] Speaker 3: get it. So there are a lot of different technical
[37:25] Speaker 3: solutions that we can show our scene is and our
[37:27] Speaker 3: kids on how to keep safe, but you do need
[37:30] Speaker 3: to take the time to do it. And that's what
[37:32] Speaker 3: I think, in conjunction with all the other great work
[37:35] Speaker 3: that is going on from industry, is we really need
[37:38] Speaker 3: these hands on education programs that show people how to
[37:42] Speaker 3: use technology, how to do a domain look up. You know,
[37:46] Speaker 3: there'd be people of my age group that wouldn't know
[37:49] Speaker 3: how to do that, but once you show them, it's super,
[37:51] Speaker 3: super easy. And that's a way that you can actually
[37:53] Speaker 3: spot whether an email incoming is you know.
[37:56] Speaker 2: Legitimate or not. So there's lots of tips up there, but.
[38:00] Speaker 3: I think it is really about showing people how to
[38:03] Speaker 3: use these technologies, especially the seniors in our world.
[38:07] Speaker 1: Okay, with the seniors with kids, Yeah, what's what's the
[38:11] Speaker 1: messaging right from the start? Now, when should they have
[38:14] Speaker 1: access to the phone and what should their phone have
[38:17] Speaker 1: on it? And should it just be poor mum? And
[38:19] Speaker 1: that's about it. What can we do there?
[38:22] Speaker 3: Well, I think we have to accept that we're living
[38:24] Speaker 3: in a very digital world. I am one hundred percent
[38:27] Speaker 3: for the social media delay personally, if nothing else, just
[38:30] Speaker 3: based on what I see in my research around the
[38:33] Speaker 3: targeting of teenagers with sex stortion scams, I think conversations
[38:39] Speaker 3: and open conversations from a very early age. Most children
[38:42] Speaker 3: are being exposed to nudity through a screen from the
[38:45] Speaker 3: ages of eleven probably younger now, and sending and receiving
[38:49] Speaker 3: nuds is not very unusual for them. Eighty six percent
[38:52] Speaker 3: of kids have either seen a nude, sent to nude,
[38:54] Speaker 3: received a neud. So weird for us, not weird for them.
[38:58] Speaker 3: So we have to have these commonversations and have them early,
[39:01] Speaker 3: don't make it weird, and also just you know, give
[39:05] Speaker 3: them the information to help them understand that what they
[39:08] Speaker 3: see is not necessarily the reality. So how do you
[39:11] Speaker 3: spot a fake profile? How do you delve deeper? How
[39:13] Speaker 3: do you have your critical thinking brain on when you get,
[39:17] Speaker 3: you know, an offer of an ambassadorship with a brand
[39:20] Speaker 3: that you've never heard of, things like that. And then
[39:22] Speaker 3: of course you as a parent, you need.
[39:25] Speaker 2: To understand the apps.
[39:26] Speaker 3: I didn't understand Snapchat, so I had to level up.
[39:30] Speaker 1: My knowledge, get yourself involved in.
[39:32] Speaker 3: Yeah, and really understand how the features of these products
[39:36] Speaker 3: are used and what may be seen as security features.
[39:40] Speaker 3: So encryptive messaging, disappearing messages are actually weaponized by criminals,
[39:45] Speaker 3: and so we have to think about that as well,
[39:47] Speaker 3: and we have to have those open conversations with our
[39:50] Speaker 3: kids at the right level. You know, a conversation with
[39:52] Speaker 3: an eleven year old is going to be very different
[39:54] Speaker 3: to a conversation with a seventeen year old.
[39:57] Speaker 2: So there's that, and.
[39:58] Speaker 3: Then there's you know, if you feel for you and
[40:00] Speaker 3: your family that restrictions in terms of certain apps are
[40:03] Speaker 3: the right thing, then that's up to you to decide.
[40:06] Speaker 3: So my daughter doesn't have Snapchat anymore, no way, one
[40:08] Speaker 3: hundred percent now. But that's that's my family. That's my decision.
[40:12] Speaker 1: Yeah, we talk about and I know when you experience
[40:16] Speaker 1: what you went through. You said you had a friend
[40:18] Speaker 1: that was saw the warning signs there. I had. I
[40:22] Speaker 1: had a phone call just the other day from a
[40:25] Speaker 1: person I've got to know after I've left for the
[40:28] Speaker 1: police and spent a lot of time in prison, and
[40:30] Speaker 1: he's a success story. He's turned his life around, he
[40:33] Speaker 1: escaped from prison, had done all sorts of things, and
[40:35] Speaker 1: he famed me up the other day and said, Gary,
[40:37] Speaker 1: I think I've been scammed. And he said, this is embarrassing.
[40:41] Speaker 1: I should have should have seen it at someone that's
[40:44] Speaker 1: come in to speak to him about a business venture
[40:47] Speaker 1: and everything seemed too good. And I won't mention his name.
[40:51] Speaker 1: I wait, embarrassing him, but he said, I look, I
[40:55] Speaker 1: wanted to like him. He's seen we were having a
[40:57] Speaker 1: joint business venture. And then I are that to have
[41:01] Speaker 1: my friends tell me too good to be true, too
[41:03] Speaker 1: good to be true. There is something to be said
[41:06] Speaker 1: to listening to your listening to your friends or your
[41:09] Speaker 1: peers or your family, people will go, oh, that this
[41:12] Speaker 1: doesn't quite seem right.
[41:13] Speaker 3: Yeah, And part of this is starting with a conversation
[41:17] Speaker 3: about money because a lot of these things are about
[41:19] Speaker 3: extracting money. In fact, most scams are about extracting money
[41:23] Speaker 3: or data, and money is one of those taboos that
[41:26] Speaker 3: we still have in this world. And we, you know,
[41:29] Speaker 3: we don't want to talk about money. But in talking
[41:32] Speaker 3: about money and what you're doing with your money, then
[41:34] Speaker 3: when these opportunities come to you, it feels very natural
[41:37] Speaker 3: to discuss them with someone else. And what is happening
[41:39] Speaker 3: right now is that scams are playing on the fact
[41:41] Speaker 3: that we don't talk about money. I certainly didn't talk
[41:44] Speaker 3: about what I was doing with Hamish, really with anyone
[41:47] Speaker 3: except this one friend who you know, saw the red
[41:50] Speaker 3: flags that I didn't. And you know, had I spoken
[41:53] Speaker 3: to five or six of my friends about what I
[41:55] Speaker 3: was doing, I'm sure I would have had multiple of
[41:58] Speaker 3: these conversations and it probably would have sunk in. But
[42:02] Speaker 3: there is a psychological thing called betrayal blindness, which is
[42:06] Speaker 3: actually this notion that even when you know that you're
[42:10] Speaker 3: being betrayed, or you're being told that you're being betrayed,
[42:13] Speaker 3: you will still go ahead with the decision that you're
[42:15] Speaker 3: making because you want to actually reinforce your thoughts and
[42:20] Speaker 3: your decisions about what you're doing with your life or
[42:22] Speaker 3: this thing or whatever. So betrayal blindness is a real thing,
[42:26] Speaker 3: and there's some cost fallacy, like there's a number of
[42:29] Speaker 3: things that our brains actually work against us in these moments,
[42:33] Speaker 3: which is why it's so important to have this support
[42:35] Speaker 3: network that is watching and seeing what you're doing and
[42:38] Speaker 3: not afraid to say to you. I think most people
[42:40] Speaker 3: don't want to actually have.
[42:41] Speaker 1: That chat, have the conversation. All of us in the
[42:44] Speaker 1: room might have a friend that it might be on
[42:47] Speaker 1: a relationship, or it might be something like a financial
[42:50] Speaker 1: gain or something doesn't feel right. Just have the conversation.
[42:53] Speaker 1: It doesn't hurt to put it out there because I
[42:55] Speaker 1: think a lot of these things could be prevented if
[42:58] Speaker 1: people actually spoke about It's interesting you don't because generally
[43:02] Speaker 1: we don't talk about their finance, do we. So you're, ah,
[43:05] Speaker 1: I think I'm on the good thing. I'll tell them
[43:07] Speaker 1: when I've made my first million dollars. But yeah, you
[43:10] Speaker 1: lose it.
[43:10] Speaker 2: And you don't talk about money you've lost.
[43:12] Speaker 1: No, that's true.
[43:13] Speaker 2: So you couple.
[43:14] Speaker 3: Scams and losing money to scams or fraud with talking
[43:18] Speaker 3: about money, and it's like a silent secrecy that just
[43:21] Speaker 3: makes it breed even greater. So and that's what they
[43:24] Speaker 3: play and like they pray on that, you know, embarrassment, shame,
[43:27] Speaker 3: silence and secrecy and it's all about money.
[43:31] Speaker 1: Hey guys, it's Gary Jubilan here. Want to get more
[43:34] Speaker 1: out of I Catch Killers, then you should head over
[43:36] Speaker 1: to our new video feed on Spotify where you can
[43:40] Speaker 1: watch every episode of I Catch Killers. Just search for
[43:44] Speaker 1: I Catch Killers video in your Spotify app and start watching.
[43:47] Speaker 1: Today we talk about the law enforcement looking at crime
[43:53] Speaker 1: as we do violent crime, it doesn't seem to get
[43:57] Speaker 1: the attention. Do you think the courts in your opinion,
[44:00] Speaker 1: you think the courts are starting to appreciate the impact
[44:02] Speaker 1: that these scams and frauds is are having.
[44:05] Speaker 3: I think if it gets to the courts, you've got
[44:09] Speaker 3: to get it to the court. I mean, we received
[44:12] Speaker 3: an incredibly big sentence for Hamish. Hamish received one of
[44:18] Speaker 3: the biggest sentences for white collar crime New South Wales
[44:21] Speaker 3: has ever seen sixteen years and that was to make
[44:23] Speaker 3: a statement and it was reduced because it was seen
[44:25] Speaker 3: to be too severe, sadly. But yeah, so when it
[44:30] Speaker 3: gets there, then yes, I think things are changing, but
[44:33] Speaker 3: to get it to the courts, to even get that
[44:35] Speaker 3: far is incredibly difficult. And in civil matters, no, I
[44:40] Speaker 3: don't think. I don't think people who intentionally steal money
[44:44] Speaker 3: in this way get the justice that is needed because
[44:48] Speaker 3: it's just it's too easy, you know.
[44:50] Speaker 1: And it's looked at white collar crime and there is
[44:53] Speaker 1: that different, different perception to it. But the impact that
[44:57] Speaker 1: has on livee should never be forgotten. And we're not
[44:59] Speaker 1: just talking out the flow on effect from the Yahoo
[45:02] Speaker 1: boys and the type of things they were doing. That's
[45:05] Speaker 1: these other people. Other people lost their life's savings and
[45:09] Speaker 1: that their life will never be never be the same.
[45:12] Speaker 1: What lessons. Obviously, you're making it your passion for people
[45:17] Speaker 1: to help people. You've learned, you've educated, and you're pass
[45:21] Speaker 1: passing on that knowledge. I'm sure people are going to
[45:23] Speaker 1: walk out of this room and look at everyone beside
[45:25] Speaker 1: them and think, who's a scammer? Who's trying? What are
[45:28] Speaker 1: you trying to do? I just said hello, like that
[45:31] Speaker 1: type of thing. How should we approach it? Like? How
[45:34] Speaker 1: how should we approach it?
[45:35] Speaker 4: Like?
[45:36] Speaker 1: You know, I'm a classic case of you get get
[45:39] Speaker 1: the emails, a texts that you don't recognize. You know,
[45:42] Speaker 1: I'm toughened up. I don't answer a phone if I
[45:44] Speaker 1: don't recognize the number. Now, what are the simple things,
[45:48] Speaker 1: like day to day things that you can do well?
[45:51] Speaker 3: I think again, just assume that it might happen to you,
[45:54] Speaker 3: and that's your starting point. One of the things I
[45:58] Speaker 3: do say is trust, but verify and then verify again,
[46:02] Speaker 3: because with AI and technology, just verifying once might not
[46:05] Speaker 3: be enough anymore. Because things look the way they're meant
[46:09] Speaker 3: to look, even if they're not exactly what they are
[46:12] Speaker 3: so trust, but verify. The other thing I say is
[46:14] Speaker 3: be skeptical, but don't be cynical. So really have your
[46:18] Speaker 3: critical thinking cap on, you know, and when life gets
[46:22] Speaker 3: busy and everything's pushed at you all the time, you know,
[46:26] Speaker 3: really just take a moment and stop. And I think
[46:29] Speaker 3: that's what the other thing is too, like that we
[46:31] Speaker 3: are operating at such a pace that we just want
[46:34] Speaker 3: to get things off our dess, through our emails, through
[46:35] Speaker 3: our text messages.
[46:37] Speaker 2: Stop, slow down. Trust.
[46:39] Speaker 3: You know, we can't go around this world not trusting.
[46:42] Speaker 3: The whole world operates on invisible contracts of trust. It
[46:46] Speaker 3: actually just wouldn't work if we didn't trust. So we
[46:49] Speaker 3: have to trust, but we have to verify and then
[46:52] Speaker 3: we verify again. And I just think that's what we do.
[46:55] Speaker 3: Just slow down and take a look thing critically and verify.
[47:00] Speaker 1: Now, I think we've got time for some questions. There'll
[47:05] Speaker 1: be a microphone going around. Has anyone got any questions?
[47:10] Speaker 5: Thank you for your talk today. I was wondering, do
[47:14] Speaker 5: you worry now that you're even more of a target
[47:17] Speaker 5: because you're so outspoken about how people can protect themselves.
[47:21] Speaker 5: But do you have any online bank accounts?
[47:25] Speaker 2: Yes?
[47:26] Speaker 1: I get's careful.
[47:28] Speaker 2: Do you want the number? No, I'll give you my
[47:31] Speaker 2: pin number.
[47:32] Speaker 3: I get targeted all the time, all the time, I'm
[47:35] Speaker 3: getting messages, emails. I just know what to look for now,
[47:40] Speaker 3: and because I am in this space, I look a
[47:42] Speaker 3: lot more closely than what most people would. But you're right,
[47:46] Speaker 3: people who have been victims to scams and fraud are
[47:50] Speaker 3: twice as more likely to become secondary victims within two years.
[47:55] Speaker 3: And that is because again, this information is sold on
[47:57] Speaker 3: the dark web. They're a scam victim, or they post
[48:00] Speaker 3: something online, or they gone seek out some sort of
[48:03] Speaker 3: service to help them retrieve money, and then they get revictimized.
[48:08] Speaker 3: So it's some ridiculous proportion, like fifty percent of people
[48:12] Speaker 3: get re scammed again, something like that, And so scam
[48:17] Speaker 3: victims actually have to be really, really careful. So you're right,
[48:20] Speaker 3: But I mean, this is my life's work now, So
[48:23] Speaker 3: all day, every day I'm learning about new scams. I
[48:26] Speaker 3: get targeted all the time. I'm very vigilant.
[48:30] Speaker 1: Now.
[48:31] Speaker 3: It doesn't mean I'm immune, because I'm human, you know,
[48:34] Speaker 3: and there may be a chance that I accidentally tap
[48:37] Speaker 3: on something, or I haven't checked a URL or something
[48:40] Speaker 3: happens where I'm deceived. I would say I'm probably one
[48:44] Speaker 3: of the most vigilant people around now because I've not
[48:48] Speaker 3: only been through it personally, but I see a lot
[48:51] Speaker 3: through my research. But yeah, it's a really interesting point,
[48:54] Speaker 3: and people don't realize that that once you have been
[48:56] Speaker 3: scammed twice, it's more likely to be scammed again.
[49:01] Speaker 6: Thank you for sharing your wonderful stories and being braved
[49:03] Speaker 6: and getting up there. Is it just down of pure
[49:08] Speaker 6: arrogance that they just keep scanning someone like you, isn't
[49:11] Speaker 6: they Are they just sharing like their playbook on feed
[49:15] Speaker 6: for you to just analyze them and see, oh here's
[49:18] Speaker 6: another one. Oh that's you, Like, couldn't it be the opposite, Like,
[49:22] Speaker 6: don't go after her because she's writing the book on it.
[49:25] Speaker 3: Yeah, she'll put it on her social media feed. Actually
[49:28] Speaker 3: gives me lots of good content and people send me
[49:31] Speaker 3: stuff that they've received, which gives me endless days of
[49:36] Speaker 3: content creation. To be honest, a lot of them are
[49:40] Speaker 3: just spray and pray efforts, so they'll have a bunch
[49:44] Speaker 3: of data that I mean, who's received a Hey mum
[49:46] Speaker 3: scam or Hey Dad, who's received an Australia Post scam. Yes,
[49:52] Speaker 3: who's received an ETOL scan. Yes, so there's nothing unique
[49:56] Speaker 3: about that. It's a spray and pray tactic. They do
[50:00] Speaker 3: the same with email addresses. They've garnered this information off
[50:03] Speaker 3: the dark web through a data breach and then they'll
[50:06] Speaker 3: they'll do it. So, yes, it might seem more relevant
[50:09] Speaker 3: because they might know a little bit more about me.
[50:11] Speaker 3: I'm a single mom, I'm a certain age, I live
[50:13] Speaker 3: in a certain suburb. But other than that, you know,
[50:16] Speaker 3: they're not saying don't send to her because we know
[50:18] Speaker 3: who she is. It's not like that in terms of
[50:21] Speaker 3: these digital scams we're getting. If it was another character
[50:25] Speaker 3: like Hamish McLaren, then I would question. I mean, that
[50:28] Speaker 3: would be silly of them to do that because that's
[50:30] Speaker 3: never going to happen again. But these these digital scams,
[50:35] Speaker 3: they're just using data and they're just spraying it out. Yeah, hi,
[50:40] Speaker 3: thank you.
[50:41] Speaker 4: So when I was eighteen, I actually got my life
[50:45] Speaker 4: saving taken of me as well as my passport everything,
[50:49] Speaker 4: and then I realized at the time, I talked bank
[50:51] Speaker 4: and they said to.
[50:52] Speaker 6: Me, we can't do anything for you.
[50:54] Speaker 4: And then this is about forty years ago, I actually
[50:58] Speaker 4: spoke to them about a year and a half ago,
[51:01] Speaker 4: and they said, oh, it's too long ago, we can't help.
[51:04] Speaker 6: But there's a ten yeal talking policy. I't like, that's
[51:07] Speaker 6: a bit silly.
[51:07] Speaker 1: So what and actually to.
[51:09] Speaker 4: Think about my sister and my brother also be in
[51:11] Speaker 4: standard all the money, so maybe it's a family. What
[51:15] Speaker 4: would someone do if they find themselves in that situation?
[51:18] Speaker 6: What's your advice?
[51:20] Speaker 3: Firstly, I'm sorry that happened to you. I'm in a
[51:22] Speaker 3: similar position, to be honest, So this happened to me
[51:29] Speaker 3: eight and a half years ago. It was a criminal case,
[51:32] Speaker 3: so the police and the detectives and the DPP took
[51:35] Speaker 3: over and they were doing so I actually had no
[51:38] Speaker 3: ability to have communication with the bank, with a superannuation company,
[51:42] Speaker 3: I lost twenty two years of superannuation, career superannuation. And
[51:49] Speaker 3: now it's a point where I would have to employ
[51:51] Speaker 3: a lawyer and subpoena that information. But I believe I'm
[51:55] Speaker 3: in a similar situation where that information is probably gone.
[52:00] Speaker 3: If we're talking about that situation now, things have moved
[52:04] Speaker 3: on so incredibly in the last eight years. So things
[52:08] Speaker 3: that the banks and the institutions have put in place
[52:11] Speaker 3: now because of the proliferation of this type of fraud
[52:15] Speaker 3: would have actually probably protected me in a way that
[52:18] Speaker 3: I didn't have protection back then, and I imagine it's
[52:21] Speaker 3: probably the same for you. So for that, you know,
[52:24] Speaker 3: we have seen progress. It doesn't help me now, but
[52:27] Speaker 3: what it does show me is that if I was
[52:30] Speaker 3: ever in that situation again, or if someone else, then
[52:33] Speaker 3: there are some gates in place through the financial institutions.
[52:36] Speaker 3: Also superannuation that didn't exist eight and a half years ago.
[52:40] Speaker 3: So I have faith that there are more triggers and
[52:45] Speaker 3: flags that are preventing these things from happening, but there
[52:49] Speaker 3: are still people getting through the cracks. When I speak
[52:51] Speaker 3: to the heads of fraud the big banks, they tell
[52:54] Speaker 3: me the biggest frustration that they have is that they
[52:59] Speaker 3: notice these things happening and it's flagged and it's triggered,
[53:02] Speaker 3: and the call center will call out to the victim,
[53:05] Speaker 3: and the victim basically won't believe that it's happening. They've
[53:10] Speaker 3: got this betrayal blindness. They're wearing their rose colored glasses.
[53:14] Speaker 3: And regulation in Australia and law is that if a
[53:17] Speaker 3: customer instructs a transfer of money, they have to do it.
[53:20] Speaker 3: They can't put a hold on that. So that is
[53:23] Speaker 3: one of the biggest frustrations that the banks have because
[53:25] Speaker 3: they have all of these systems in place now that
[53:27] Speaker 3: didn't exist back then, because if they did, I would
[53:29] Speaker 3: have got a phone call. Why are you transferring that
[53:32] Speaker 3: much money to their Why do you suddenly want to
[53:34] Speaker 3: set up a self managed super fund? Where is your
[53:37] Speaker 3: investment strategy? There were some gaps, for sure. I didn't
[53:41] Speaker 3: have the ability to investigate those gaps back then because
[53:44] Speaker 3: it was done by law enforcement and you know yet
[53:48] Speaker 3: that's frustrating. But at the same time, Hamish received a
[53:52] Speaker 3: sixteen near criminal sentence. So I think for now for people,
[53:57] Speaker 3: there are more things in place which are making sure
[54:00] Speaker 3: that people don't end up in the situations that we did.
[54:04] Speaker 3: I hope that answers your question.
[54:07] Speaker 1: Time for one more Yeah, Hi, thank you if you're talking.
[54:10] Speaker 2: I wanted to go back to what we were talking
[54:11] Speaker 2: about of.
[54:11] Speaker 7: Like, with training, you're helping your parents sort of like
[54:14] Speaker 7: the elderly kind of understand these things.
[54:16] Speaker 3: I was talking to my mom a few months ago.
[54:18] Speaker 6: She showed me a video on Instagram.
[54:19] Speaker 7: She's like, look at this, and I'm like, Mom, that's AI,
[54:22] Speaker 7: and so I just kind of clicked with me of like,
[54:25] Speaker 7: I work in it, and I sort of understand the
[54:28] Speaker 7: risks and stuff. But where do we start in teaching
[54:31] Speaker 7: our parents about these things and making sure that they're
[54:34] Speaker 7: educated about the different the different things that can happen
[54:37] Speaker 7: to them as they get targeted in these ways.
[54:41] Speaker 3: I think exactly how we start with our children is
[54:43] Speaker 3: through conversations and showing them examples of you know, documentaries
[54:48] Speaker 3: are a great way to do that. Hey mm, watched
[54:51] Speaker 3: this and there's heaps of them on sort of romance
[54:52] Speaker 3: scams and different types of fraud scams, things like that,
[54:57] Speaker 3: sitting down with a cup of tea if you can,
[55:00] Speaker 3: and saying, hey, mom, see this thing on Facebook and
[55:03] Speaker 3: it talks about an investment opportunity and it's David Kosh. Yeah,
[55:07] Speaker 3: his mouth is moving really funny and it's not really
[55:10] Speaker 3: And do you think David Kosh should be, you know,
[55:12] Speaker 3: setting up an investment fun like really? Do you think,
[55:14] Speaker 3: like really sitting down and taking them through, step by
[55:17] Speaker 3: step all the things that we notice or know to
[55:19] Speaker 3: look for, explaining that to our parents or you know,
[55:24] Speaker 3: I had to explain to my mum how voice cloning works,
[55:27] Speaker 3: just like how could somebody bring me and pretend to
[55:29] Speaker 3: be you. I said, well, what they do is they
[55:31] Speaker 3: do this and then they just take it from this
[55:34] Speaker 3: part here. They'll write a script here and then it
[55:36] Speaker 3: will sound like me. And then I actually created one
[55:40] Speaker 3: on speech if I and it took me like five minutes,
[55:43] Speaker 3: and I sent it to her and she goes, oh,
[55:45] Speaker 3: that sounds like you. I would have sent the money,
[55:47] Speaker 3: and I said, that's how they do it. So things
[55:49] Speaker 3: like that, like, it does take time, and it's not
[55:51] Speaker 3: as easy as saying I'll set up your two factor.
[55:54] Speaker 2: You don't know what that means.
[55:56] Speaker 3: Like, so mum, you know when you try and log
[55:58] Speaker 3: into your bank account and then you get a text
[56:00] Speaker 3: message and you have to put a code in, that's
[56:02] Speaker 3: what two factor because you've got a password and you've
[56:05] Speaker 3: got your text message. And I said, but you never
[56:08] Speaker 3: give that code to anybody?
[56:10] Speaker 2: Oh why not?
[56:11] Speaker 3: You know, like it takes time, this is the thing,
[56:13] Speaker 3: and everyone's so busy and you know that's the thing.
[56:16] Speaker 3: But that's where I would start is really showing real
[56:19] Speaker 3: life examples, showing them you know, articles online that you
[56:22] Speaker 3: might have read, documentaries that you've seen, or sitting down
[56:26] Speaker 3: and actually taking them through step by steps it's an
[56:30] Speaker 3: education process and when you think about education, it's not
[56:33] Speaker 3: going to be solved with a one line or in
[56:35] Speaker 3: an email.
[56:36] Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you.
[56:38] Speaker 1: It's complicated, isn't it. We'll finish it for the question
[56:43] Speaker 1: question time now. But very briefly, we were talking about AI.
[56:49] Speaker 1: How we can use AI to combat these scammers frauds
[56:54] Speaker 1: is too. Can you just touch on that very quickly
[56:56] Speaker 1: because I think this is how we fight back as well.
[56:58] Speaker 3: Yeah, we have to fight AI with AI. It's not
[57:00] Speaker 3: going to work otherwise. And there is some incredible there
[57:04] Speaker 3: is some incredible work going on. There's one particular company
[57:07] Speaker 3: in Australia that I've just discovered called Aparthey, and they
[57:11] Speaker 3: have created a call center of bots, ten thousand call
[57:15] Speaker 3: center bots, and they've been working with the Comonwealth Bank.
[57:19] Speaker 3: I'm sure they're working with other companies as well. But
[57:21] Speaker 3: the example I know is when a call comes into
[57:24] Speaker 3: a customer via the Commonwealth Bank number, they are able
[57:28] Speaker 3: to recognize that it's a scam call and rather than
[57:31] Speaker 3: just blocking that call, they actually redirect that call of
[57:35] Speaker 3: the scammer to an army of bots that take the
[57:38] Speaker 3: call and their AI all different genders ages, sense of
[57:44] Speaker 3: human nationalities. So there's loads and loads and they basically
[57:48] Speaker 3: just take them on this long nonsensical conversation to keep
[57:53] Speaker 3: them busy so that they're not calling you and I.
[57:55] Speaker 3: But what is really interesting about this solution is that
[58:00] Speaker 3: by keeping them on the phone and garnering information, they're
[58:03] Speaker 3: actually collecting data that they can use to provide to
[58:05] Speaker 3: law enforcement or to other banks. So they will find
[58:08] Speaker 3: out bank accounts. So there's been account numbers of mule
[58:12] Speaker 3: accounts where your money will go and sit there for
[58:15] Speaker 3: about a hot minute and then go off to some
[58:18] Speaker 3: crypto platform. So what they're actually doing is collecting that information,
[58:24] Speaker 3: sharing it with other banks to alert them to the
[58:27] Speaker 3: mule accounts that are sitting within their organizations. They will
[58:30] Speaker 3: also garner information like a domain, so go to this
[58:33] Speaker 3: website and do this, this and this and then transfer
[58:36] Speaker 3: the money, So they're actually getting domain addresses. So not
[58:38] Speaker 3: only are they keeping them busy so they're not scamming us,
[58:42] Speaker 3: they're actually collecting really intelligent information. Now this is all
[58:46] Speaker 3: done by robots. There's you know, dashboards and systems. It
[58:50] Speaker 3: is absolutely phenomenal. I saw the founder present to actually
[58:55] Speaker 3: I think he's speaking itself by Southwest present to the
[58:57] Speaker 3: AFP about a month ago, and it will is absolutely
[59:01] Speaker 3: phenomenal what they're doing. And I only hope that it
[59:03] Speaker 3: just grows bigger and bigger and bigger and goes global
[59:06] Speaker 3: because it's fantastic software.
[59:08] Speaker 1: Well it might be how we need to fight them. Look,
[59:11] Speaker 1: I'd like to thank Tracy for sharing the storage and knowledge.
[59:16] Speaker 1: As I said, every time I sit down with Tracy,
[59:19] Speaker 1: I come away a little bit wiser. Tracy. If people
[59:23] Speaker 1: in the audience want to reach out to the type
[59:25] Speaker 1: of thing that you're doing, then dig even further deeper
[59:28] Speaker 1: into what you've been talking about. How can they reach
[59:31] Speaker 1: out to?
[59:31] Speaker 3: LinkedIn is a great way? So Tracy Hall or Instagram
[59:35] Speaker 3: or my website Tracy Hall dot com, dot AU.
[59:38] Speaker 1: Okay, well, ladies and gentlemen, let's say it thank Tracy,
[59:42] Speaker 1: because I think we've all learned something.
[59:48] Speaker 6: Thanks.
[59:49] Speaker 2: Thanks Garry.
[59:49] Speaker 1: I'm going to go look for my walle now find
[59:51] Speaker 1: you wallet,

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