# What really happens in a women's prison: Natashcha Consigli Pt.2

An episode of [I Catch Killers with Gary Jubelin](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1506667049), 21 Sep 2026, 1 h 08 min.

Audio: https://p.podderapp.com/2544644999/traffic.omny.fm/d/clips/2fb3740d-3436-44af-8cc0-a91900716aa5/5bc8c2ed-b718-4f44-beb3-ac2a005246cc/6bf05f50-6d0b-4195-b070-b4cc002ef553/audio.mp3?utm_source=Podcast&in_playlist=786928c3-10c1-4cef-a7bf-ac2a005246d0

After 16 months on bail waiting to be sentenced, Natascha Consigli was given 15 months with no parole. She tells Gary what her first night locked up was really like and how prison changed her. From getting a black eye from her cellmate and refusing to press charges, to realising at 52 how much privilege she'd had compared to the young women inside with her, this is an honest conversation about accountability, rehabilitation and what actually stops reoffending. Natascha now works with Success Works helping women with criminal records find meaningful employment because it costs $180K to jail a woman in Australia and a fraction of that to rebuild her life through a job. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

## Transcript

[0:01] Speaker 1: The public has had a long-held fascination with detectives. Detectives
[0:05] Speaker 1: see a side of life the average person is never
[0:08] Speaker 1: exposed to. I spent 34 years as a cop. For
[0:12] Speaker 1: 25 of those years I was catching killers. That's what
[0:14] Speaker 1: I did for a living. I was a homicide detective.
[0:18] Speaker 1: I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead I'm taking
[0:21] Speaker 1: the public into the world in which I operated. The
[0:24] Speaker 1: guests I talk to each week have amazing stories from
[0:26] Speaker 1: all sides of the law. The interviews are raw and honest,
[0:29] Speaker 1: just like the people I talk to. Some of the
[0:31] Speaker 1: content and language might be confronting. That's because no one
[0:34] Speaker 1: who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged. Join
[0:38] Speaker 1: me now as I take you into this world. If
[0:46] Speaker 1: you listened to part one, you'll know our guest, Natasha Consealy.
[0:51] Speaker 1: lived a wild life, partying hard, working as a stripper
[0:55] Speaker 1: and falling in with the wrong crowd. That path eventually
[0:59] Speaker 1: led to a conviction for drug dealing and time spent
[1:02] Speaker 1: behind bars. In part two, we pick up a story
[1:05] Speaker 1: from there. Natasha opens up about her time in prison,
[1:09] Speaker 1: how it changed her and what she's doing now, giving
[1:12] Speaker 1: back to society by helping women less fortunate than her.
[1:17] Speaker 1: I really enjoyed this chat and came away genuinely impressed.
[1:21] Speaker 1: by the person Natasha has become. Have a listen. See
[1:24] Speaker 1: what you think. Natasha Kansili, welcome back. Part two, I
[1:29] Speaker 1: Catch Killers. Hi. Okay. We left you in, you just
[1:33] Speaker 1: got arrested in part one. Yes. Sorry about that, but
[1:37] Speaker 1: it was always going to happen. We talked in the
[1:41] Speaker 1: end of part one that you decide, well, I'm not
[1:43] Speaker 1: going to assist police. I'm not going to give a statement.
[1:46] Speaker 1: And I think interestingly that you accept your responsibility. You
[1:50] Speaker 1: weren't making excuses. I knew what was going on and
[1:53] Speaker 1: I'll cop the punishment, whatever that might be. You got bail.
[1:58] Speaker 2: Yes, I did.
[1:58] Speaker 1: How long did it take before you ended up in
[2:02] Speaker 1: custody and what was that time period in your life
[2:05] Speaker 1: like and what did you do? Yeah.
[2:07] Speaker 2: So I got bail. I was bailed to Corrie's home
[2:11] Speaker 2: and she was meant to go everywhere with me. So
[2:13] Speaker 2: I had really strict conditions. the prosecution wanted me to
[2:18] Speaker 2: have no access to social media, like any kind of devices,
[2:21] Speaker 2: but the judge felt that that was unhealthy and wouldn't
[2:23] Speaker 2: help me be in a good space because obviously this
[2:27] Speaker 2: stuff takes a while, right?
[2:29] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[2:29] Speaker 2: But no one tells you that either. You just don't know.
[2:31] Speaker 2: You kind of just have a next court date in
[2:33] Speaker 2: a month. And you think that you'll be– Yeah. Every
[2:36] Speaker 2: month you've got a court date scheduled and you think
[2:39] Speaker 2: that something's going to happen. Nothing ever happens. It gets adjourned.
[2:42] Speaker 2: There's lots of negotiations that go on behind– closed doors
[2:46] Speaker 2: around with your lawyer and the facts. And the facts
[2:49] Speaker 2: are never the facts. The facts are the ones that
[2:51] Speaker 2: the police decide that they're going to write down to
[2:53] Speaker 2: be the facts, right? At the end of the day.
[2:57] Speaker 1: And just on that, I'll give it back from a
[2:59] Speaker 1: police officer's point of view. Sometimes I'm sitting there and
[3:02] Speaker 1: it's not just, okay, these are the facts, this is
[3:05] Speaker 1: what's happened. But then you get the adjournments and then
[3:08] Speaker 1: the facts are watered down or things are changed. By
[3:12] Speaker 1: the time the person's sentenced on the facts, I don't
[3:14] Speaker 1: even recognise what's happened. And that's in that behind closed
[3:17] Speaker 1: doors legal negotiation. I think that, you know.
[3:21] Speaker 2: And they argue over one word.
[3:22] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[3:23] Speaker 2: And I just go, what the hell for?
[3:27] Speaker 1: They'll concede, we'll do this. And they say this helps
[3:29] Speaker 1: facilitate justice and speeds up justice. But.
[3:33] Speaker 2: It actually slows the whole process down. I'm sorry.
[3:35] Speaker 1: I just can't believe how slow the justice system is.
[3:38] Speaker 1: And it might start with let's sit the courts a
[3:40] Speaker 1: little bit longer during the day because there seems to
[3:43] Speaker 1: be adjournments, breaks, lunch breaks, starts at 10 o'clock, finishes
[3:46] Speaker 1: at 4 o'clock. Anyway, you've started me whinging about courts.
[3:51] Speaker 2: I think, you know, there's a lot of holes in
[3:56] Speaker 2: how we decide what happens to people and how that
[4:00] Speaker 2: this is decided and what all of that kind of stuff.
[4:03] Speaker 2: But that's a whole other story for me. It was
[4:05] Speaker 2: actually quite straightforward. So I got bail. I was like
[4:09] Speaker 2: straight away, when can I alter these bail conditions? Like
[4:12] Speaker 2: I can't do this to Corrie. She doesn't need to
[4:14] Speaker 2: come everywhere with me. And she was like, can I
[4:16] Speaker 2: get in trouble if I go out on my own?
[4:18] Speaker 2: Like we had to navigate all those things. And there's
[4:21] Speaker 2: no website that gives you information. And when you call
[4:25] Speaker 2: your lawyer, he's probably busy, he's in court or whatever
[4:28] Speaker 2: it is. I was really lucky that– He was a
[4:32] Speaker 2: friend of my ex's lawyer and he goes, just hang
[4:36] Speaker 2: in there, Tash.
[4:37] Speaker 1: Yeah, he explained it to me.
[4:38] Speaker 2: He goes, just hang in there. Just whatever. Go and
[4:41] Speaker 2: get some third-party advice if you want, but just hang
[4:43] Speaker 2: in there. It'll be okay. And he just said, look,
[4:46] Speaker 2: with the bail, your mum can't get in trouble for
[4:48] Speaker 2: anything or Corey can't get in trouble for anything and
[4:51] Speaker 2: just do the right thing. So we did and I
[4:55] Speaker 2: was on bail for 16 months.
[4:57] Speaker 1: That's a long time, isn't it?
[4:58] Speaker 2: It's a very long time.
[4:59] Speaker 1: Was that a big cloud hanging over your head the
[5:01] Speaker 1: whole time?
[5:02] Speaker 2: Look, no, for me in the beginning I was frantic
[5:07] Speaker 2: about it. I kind of was like I just want
[5:09] Speaker 2: to know what's going to happen. I reached out. Look,
[5:13] Speaker 2: they took everything. Police confiscated everything.
[5:16] Speaker 1: With the proceeds of crime.
[5:16] Speaker 2: Yeah, proceeds of crime. And I asked a couple of
[5:20] Speaker 2: questions at the arrest. I said to the detectives, look,
[5:23] Speaker 2: I have money that is from my earnings in my
[5:25] Speaker 2: bank account. Are you going to take that as well?
[5:28] Speaker 2: And they went, no, we've got no access to that
[5:31] Speaker 2: and we're not. That was really important. And then the
[5:33] Speaker 2: first thing I asked for when I was out on
[5:35] Speaker 2: bail was my car, my phone, my laptop, all that
[5:38] Speaker 2: kind of stuff. I lost my job, obviously, because I
[5:42] Speaker 2: couldn't go to work. And it was all over the media.
[5:46] Speaker 2: I was working for the council down south at the time. And,
[5:50] Speaker 2: you know, it was part of our contract that we're
[5:52] Speaker 2: not to bring them into any kind of. So they
[5:55] Speaker 2: were kind of like they didn't want to let me go.
[5:57] Speaker 2: So they asked me to show cause as to why
[5:59] Speaker 2: they should keep me employed. And I was just like,
[6:02] Speaker 2: this is the least of my worries. Here's your termination.
[6:06] Speaker 2: Thank you. I've got bigger fish to fry here. And
[6:09] Speaker 2: I kind of just went one thing at a time.
[6:14] Speaker 2: How do I deal with this? Then deal with the
[6:16] Speaker 2: next thing. I reached out to legal aid. And like
[6:20] Speaker 2: I said, my lawyer just went, hang in there, Tash.
[6:22] Speaker 2: Don't do anything drastic. Don't hire another lawyer or anything
[6:25] Speaker 2: like that. but a friend of mine said, look, Tash,
[6:29] Speaker 2: I've got a lawyer who's happy to come and just
[6:31] Speaker 2: consult with you. And he came around and he was
[6:33] Speaker 2: really keen to represent me, but he also then explained
[6:36] Speaker 2: some basic things of how it's going to roll and
[6:38] Speaker 2: what will happen next. And another lady I spoke to
[6:41] Speaker 2: as well, she just goes, and by the way, I
[6:43] Speaker 2: know that it looks horrendous right now and you feel
[6:46] Speaker 2: like you're the worst person in the world. What you
[6:49] Speaker 2: actually get sentenced for and what is in is going
[6:53] Speaker 2: to be two different things. And she was right. At
[6:55] Speaker 2: the end of the day, that's kind of, negotiated for you.
[6:58] Speaker 2: Your lawyer checks in with you and makes sure that these,
[7:02] Speaker 2: you know, how do you feel about this wording or this,
[7:04] Speaker 2: and we're going to try and get rid of this.
[7:06] Speaker 2: And I kind of just went, I'm just going to
[7:08] Speaker 2: trust the process. At the end of the day, I've
[7:10] Speaker 2: done the wrong thing, whatever comes from this.
[7:13] Speaker 1: Okay, fatalistic sort of attitude.
[7:15] Speaker 2: Absolutely. And I just got to accept this. There is nothing,
[7:18] Speaker 2: I've got no control over it. I had control prior.
[7:22] Speaker 1: Mm-hmm.
[7:23] Speaker 2: I made these choices. This is now how I've got
[7:25] Speaker 2: to roll.
[7:26] Speaker 1: Did you have a fear of going to prison? Did
[7:28] Speaker 1: you have an expectation that you would be due in time?
[7:32] Speaker 2: I knew from the moment when we were arrested, I
[7:34] Speaker 2: knew that I was going to serve time. Something in my–
[7:38] Speaker 2: I just knew. Everybody outside of me was very hopeful
[7:41] Speaker 2: that because it was my first time that I'd been arrested,
[7:45] Speaker 2: my first offending ever– that I was showing up and
[7:49] Speaker 2: doing all the right things. So I went and cleaned
[7:51] Speaker 2: houses whilst I was on bail for a couple of friends.
[7:53] Speaker 2: So I got a job really. And then I went, well,
[7:57] Speaker 2: I've been wanting to do a diploma of counselling for
[7:59] Speaker 2: God knows how long now. I forgot the time. Why
[8:01] Speaker 2: don't I do that? So I signed up to online university,
[8:05] Speaker 2: an online course, and I did a diploma of counselling
[8:07] Speaker 2: for 12 months whilst I was.
[8:09] Speaker 1: Kept you busy?
[8:10] Speaker 2: Kept me busy. I made lots of jewellery. So I
[8:12] Speaker 2: make jewellery as a hobby and I spend a lot
[8:15] Speaker 2: of time just being creative. I'd get up each day.
[8:18] Speaker 2: I'd face Corrie and in the beginning that was tough.
[8:22] Speaker 2: You know, she was angry with me and so was
[8:24] Speaker 2: Morgana and I just had to be in her space.
[8:26] Speaker 1: Because these were the people that took you into their
[8:28] Speaker 1: family basically.
[8:29] Speaker 2: Always had and, you know, it had been a rocky
[8:31] Speaker 2: road with me from afar mostly but at different times
[8:36] Speaker 2: and this was just, You know, what the hell?
[8:39] Speaker 1: Were you scared about the prospect of going into prison?
[8:44] Speaker 1: Because that can be daunting for someone that, you know,
[8:47] Speaker 1: you've lived a life but there's another world in there.
[8:49] Speaker 2: Look, so for, I don't think I was scared. It
[8:54] Speaker 2: was more what can I find out about it before
[8:57] Speaker 2: it happens?
[8:57] Speaker 1: Yep. Right?
[8:58] Speaker 2: What do I need to get, what do I need
[9:01] Speaker 2: to prep for? What needs to, you know, there was
[9:03] Speaker 2: all these things. So I was living in a unit.
[9:05] Speaker 2: I had to pack all that up. with Corrie and
[9:07] Speaker 2: Morgana helped me put it all in storage, live with mum.
[9:11] Speaker 2: What do I take there? How am I going to
[9:13] Speaker 2: pay for that storage when I go to prison? How
[9:15] Speaker 2: am I going to keep my phone on? What are
[9:18] Speaker 2: all the things that I needed to? So I just
[9:20] Speaker 2: started getting my ducks in a row the closer it
[9:22] Speaker 2: got to. So once I pleaded guilty, I think 13
[9:26] Speaker 2: months in and then 16 months, I was then we've
[9:30] Speaker 2: got a date for sentencing.
[9:31] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[9:34] Speaker 2: I had to go to community corrections and do, what
[9:37] Speaker 2: is it, pre-sentencing report, had to see a forensic psychologist.
[9:42] Speaker 2: I did all those things and I just showed up
[9:44] Speaker 2: and just went, I'm not making excuses for any of this.
[9:47] Speaker 2: I'm just doing this.
[9:48] Speaker 1: Okay. So that time when you were on bail, you
[9:52] Speaker 1: got some qualifications and you said got your ducks all
[9:56] Speaker 1: lined up. So you got your life in order. I did. Okay. Yeah.
[10:00] Speaker 1: when the sentence comes down, if I'm going to prison,
[10:04] Speaker 1: I know I've done everything I can up until this point.
[10:07] Speaker 2: And I really thought about everything. And I think a
[10:10] Speaker 2: lot of the women that I support, they have this
[10:13] Speaker 2: kind of magical thinking, oh, I may not and then
[10:17] Speaker 2: their lawyers are going, oh, we'll do everything to keep
[10:19] Speaker 2: you out of prison. What you then hear is, keep
[10:21] Speaker 2: me out of prison. They don't get prepared. When you
[10:25] Speaker 2: go to sentencing on the day, they don't send you
[10:28] Speaker 2: home afterwards to go and pack up your belongings and
[10:31] Speaker 2: say goodbye to your kids. So if you have children
[10:33] Speaker 2: and you're going to sentencing, you need to say goodbye
[10:37] Speaker 2: to them on that day before court and make sure
[10:41] Speaker 2: that they have somewhere safe to be because otherwise if
[10:44] Speaker 2: you get locked up, Those kids are going to get
[10:47] Speaker 2: collected by DCJ and you're going to be in a
[10:49] Speaker 2: world of pain. You're going to lose your home. You're
[10:51] Speaker 2: going to lose your bank account, everything, just everything. Your
[10:55] Speaker 2: bills are going to amount. If you don't think about
[10:58] Speaker 2: those things prior to this, the repercussions. I remember being
[11:05] Speaker 2: in prison with women who went, oh, no, I thought
[11:08] Speaker 2: I wasn't going to prison. And then they're locked firstly
[11:12] Speaker 2: for the first week under observation. No contact with anybody.
[11:17] Speaker 2: The sapo's too busy to see them and they can't
[11:19] Speaker 2: ring anyone. They don't know where the kids are. They
[11:21] Speaker 2: don't know where the animals are. They don't know.
[11:23] Speaker 1: What was the sentence you were given?
[11:25] Speaker 2: So my sentence was, it was really interesting. The judge
[11:29] Speaker 2: took a break before he could decide. He goes, I
[11:32] Speaker 2: just need to take a short break here. Great. No,
[11:36] Speaker 2: he did. He goes, I'm having a really hard time
[11:39] Speaker 2: with making a call here around– So he really, I think,
[11:47] Speaker 2: but he had to go away and deliberate rather than
[11:49] Speaker 2: sitting in the courtroom. I'm just like sitting there in
[11:51] Speaker 2: the little thing. I've got Corrie Morgana, her partner, and
[11:56] Speaker 2: my amazing friend, John, who's been a mentor to me
[11:58] Speaker 2: throughout this time, sitting in the court with me. And
[12:03] Speaker 2: I had my little plastic bag with my glasses, reading glasses,
[12:07] Speaker 2: some money, my medical scripts, just things that I'd– Gone,
[12:12] Speaker 2: what do I need to take with me? What will
[12:13] Speaker 2: they let me take with me, right? And the money
[12:15] Speaker 2: is so that you've got money in your account straight
[12:17] Speaker 2: away so that you can make phone calls, that you
[12:19] Speaker 2: can ring people, that kind of stuff. So it's really
[12:21] Speaker 2: important to be prepared. Then he came back and he goes,
[12:25] Speaker 2: so despite all the references and the showing up, the
[12:32] Speaker 2: good behaviour, everything that you've done whilst you've been on bail,
[12:36] Speaker 2: due to the severity of of your offences or the
[12:40] Speaker 2: one offence, and it was the knowingly dealing with the
[12:42] Speaker 2: proceeds of crime, I'm sentencing you to 15 months no parole.
[12:47] Speaker 2: And I'm like, okay, here we go.
[12:49] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[12:51] Speaker 2: I knew it was happening. Turn around. I was crying.
[12:54] Speaker 2: I'm just like, I did that. Craig's crying. Garner's crying.
[12:59] Speaker 2: I'm just like, okay. And they don't give you any
[13:01] Speaker 2: time to think about it. And, like, it was two
[13:03] Speaker 2: and a half on.
[13:04] Speaker 1: Top, 15 months no parole. I'm like, 15 months? Doing
[13:09] Speaker 1: your calculations.
[13:11] Speaker 2: Just going, here we go. Just got to go for
[13:13] Speaker 2: the ride. And they take you, they cuff you, and
[13:15] Speaker 2: they take you downstairs, and you go into cells. And
[13:18] Speaker 2: I'd been in those cells before.
[13:20] Speaker 1: When you were first arrested.
[13:22] Speaker 2: When I was first arrested, they moved me to Wollongong
[13:25] Speaker 2: before I got bail. And I just was like, this
[13:28] Speaker 2: is now my life. And I think that's another thing
[13:31] Speaker 2: is when I went to prison, I was mentally, physically,
[13:35] Speaker 2: and emotionally ill. probably the wellest I had been in
[13:39] Speaker 2: a really, really long time. So I was prepared for
[13:44] Speaker 2: the worst. I was hoping for the best and just
[13:48] Speaker 2: knew that whatever I had outside, that was still going
[13:52] Speaker 2: to be there when I came out.
[13:54] Speaker 1: Okay.
[13:55] Speaker 2: And I had to just go, that's all done. Now
[13:57] Speaker 2: we're going here.
[13:57] Speaker 1: Concentrate.
[13:58] Speaker 2: And this is just the new reality. And if you're
[14:02] Speaker 2: not mentally prepared like that, it's like, being propelled into
[14:06] Speaker 2: an alien planet. Like literally it's the weirdest space I
[14:12] Speaker 2: have ever been in. Like I sometimes would walk around
[14:15] Speaker 2: the yard and just go, where the hell am I?
[14:18] Speaker 1: Like you're on a spaceship.
[14:19] Speaker 2: Really like you're on a spaceship. And even like despite
[14:24] Speaker 2: there is friendship and there's community and there's all of
[14:28] Speaker 2: those things within those prisons, within the women and wherever
[14:32] Speaker 2: they're at, But you have this feeling of there's this uncomfortableness,
[14:38] Speaker 2: like you want to constantly check who's behind you. There
[14:41] Speaker 2: is always this unsafeness and that is– and there's never quiet, never.
[14:48] Speaker 2: There's never any silence.
[14:50] Speaker 1: And no personal space and, yeah, it's– Well.
[14:54] Speaker 2: In your own cell, yes. Yeah, yeah. But even then
[14:56] Speaker 2: you can always hear.
[14:57] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[14:58] Speaker 2: It's not– and I'd gone from– so Corrie's house is–
[15:03] Speaker 2: up on a hill surrounded by bush and it's beautiful, quiet. Look,
[15:08] Speaker 2: I got to do my bail in the most loving, caring,
[15:13] Speaker 2: safe environment ever.
[15:14] Speaker 1: And that probably strengthened you.
[15:15] Speaker 2: And that strengthened me for what was to come. But
[15:19] Speaker 2: that stillness and that quiet, that was all gone. And,
[15:22] Speaker 2: you know, I'm not saying poor me or anything like that.
[15:25] Speaker 2: Don't get me wrong. That was my punishment. I had
[15:28] Speaker 2: my freedom taken away from me for the things that
[15:31] Speaker 2: I had been caught doing.
[15:32] Speaker 1: And that's just– And I think it's important that you've
[15:36] Speaker 1: made that point frequently that you're not crying poor on this. No.
[15:40] Speaker 1: I got what I deserve. But, yeah, prison, there's a
[15:44] Speaker 1: punishment being taken away from society in that environment. Did
[15:48] Speaker 1: you have any conflicts in there? Did you get through?
[15:52] Speaker 2: I had conflict, yeah.
[15:53] Speaker 1: How did you deal with that?
[15:55] Speaker 2: So I've been doing Thai boxing for a long time
[15:56] Speaker 2: so I can defend myself, right? Yeah. I really don't
[16:01] Speaker 2: believe in violence. I don't. Like from the world that
[16:04] Speaker 2: I've come from and I now, like I just.
[16:05] Speaker 1: That'll carry well in prison, but I don't believe in violence.
[16:10] Speaker 2: Anyway, I never felt unsafe in like that unsafeness of
[16:17] Speaker 2: in general, that feeling. It's just a general feeling. But
[16:21] Speaker 2: I didn't feel unsafe in groups or within the yard
[16:25] Speaker 2: or anything like that. And I had no reason to
[16:27] Speaker 2: because I wasn't. I wasn't on anybody's radar. I don't
[16:31] Speaker 2: involve myself in anybody's things. I stuck to myself. I
[16:35] Speaker 2: did my time and I showed up in a way
[16:36] Speaker 2: that was respectful to everybody, right, because that's just what
[16:39] Speaker 2: you do. But not everybody has good mental health in prison.
[16:43] Speaker 2: A lot of women don't. And I ended up with
[16:45] Speaker 2: a cellmate who was really unwell, mentally really, really unwell.
[16:50] Speaker 2: She lost her shit one morning and attacked me. So
[16:57] Speaker 2: I ended up with a black eye. And was like,
[17:02] Speaker 2: just get off me.
[17:03] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[17:04] Speaker 2: Get off me, right? And she did. I walked over
[17:07] Speaker 2: to the mirror. I looked at my eye and I
[17:09] Speaker 2: just went, look what you've done to me. And she
[17:10] Speaker 2: just stood there and I just went, I'm going to
[17:13] Speaker 2: just knock her out. I just dropped my fists.
[17:16] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[17:17] Speaker 2: And for me that is to this day, and I've
[17:19] Speaker 2: spoken about it quite frequently, that is my defining moment
[17:23] Speaker 2: where it was clear that I had turned a point
[17:25] Speaker 2: within my own life because I was no longer going
[17:28] Speaker 2: to become my environment. Because what would that make me
[17:32] Speaker 2: if I hurt her back? I know different. She doesn't.
[17:37] Speaker 2: I'm fully aware and violence, fighting violence with violence only
[17:43] Speaker 2: makes it worse and it would have just continued the cycle.
[17:46] Speaker 2: And I don't, that moment of no, that is not
[17:51] Speaker 2: who I am, And this is not what this situation needs.
[17:53] Speaker 2: And then the guards came in, took her away, took
[17:56] Speaker 2: me away. And all I could think about was I'm
[17:59] Speaker 2: going to lose my progression out of here because there's
[18:03] Speaker 2: been an altercation. They then investigate it because I'd been
[18:07] Speaker 2: hit in the head. You get locked in the clinic
[18:08] Speaker 2: all day. And the fear that my own actions created
[18:16] Speaker 2: throughout that day, being locked in the clinic, being checked
[18:20] Speaker 2: on by the nurses, her being out locked in cells.
[18:24] Speaker 2: She took full responsibility. They wanted to know if I
[18:27] Speaker 2: wanted to police charge her. I said, absolutely not. Right.
[18:32] Speaker 2: She needs mental health care and all that kind of stuff,
[18:35] Speaker 2: not further punishment. And so from that, because I didn't
[18:42] Speaker 2: whack her, I had no offense because they take photos, right,
[18:45] Speaker 2: and no offensive wounds on my hands so I didn't
[18:48] Speaker 2: get charged. And I didn't ruin my progression through prison
[18:52] Speaker 2: by thinking that that was the only way to stay strong.
[18:56] Speaker 2: And my fears that I had around people are going
[18:58] Speaker 2: to think I'm weak. They're going to prey on me now.
[19:01] Speaker 2: All those things, I just shushed and went, that's not
[19:04] Speaker 2: the case. And whatever comes from here, I can deal
[19:07] Speaker 2: with and I'll be fine. It actually turned out really different.
[19:12] Speaker 2: She got out of cells, wanted to a apologize to me.
[19:15] Speaker 2: I wouldn't talk to her. And then she went around
[19:17] Speaker 2: telling everybody she's going to bash me again. So I
[19:20] Speaker 2: called one of the girls over and I said, look,
[19:22] Speaker 2: your auntie, can we sort this out? I'll help you out.
[19:26] Speaker 2: If you help me out with this situation. She came
[19:28] Speaker 2: back half an hour later and she goes, she just
[19:31] Speaker 2: wants to say, apologize to you in front of everyone
[19:34] Speaker 2: just before muster. I'm like, absolutely. Let's do it. Let's
[19:38] Speaker 2: put an end to this because I didn't want to
[19:40] Speaker 2: live for 15 months going, where's she going to jump
[19:42] Speaker 2: out of a bush and punch me? So she comes
[19:45] Speaker 2: over and she goes, I'm so sorry. You're such a
[19:48] Speaker 2: beautiful human being and I, I'm sorry for what I did.
[19:51] Speaker 2: And the whole yard was quite full and everybody was
[19:54] Speaker 2: watching and I let her hug me and I said,
[19:56] Speaker 2: thank you for apologizing, but what you did was not okay,
[19:59] Speaker 2: but I accept the apology. And the ripple effect in,
[20:05] Speaker 2: I didn't know how, I was just showing up for myself.
[20:08] Speaker 2: But the ripple effect of how it then went through
[20:11] Speaker 2: the whole minimum security was women would come up to
[20:16] Speaker 2: me and go, oh, we're so sorry this has happened
[20:18] Speaker 2: to you. Some of them would ask me and say,
[20:21] Speaker 2: why didn't you fight back? And I said, because we
[20:24] Speaker 2: can't fight violence with violence. We're all a victim of
[20:28] Speaker 2: it in some way, shape or form. Because I know
[20:30] Speaker 2: they say that 80% of women in have experienced some
[20:34] Speaker 2: sort of violence, whether it's sexual abuse or whatever it is,
[20:36] Speaker 2: I'd say it's 100%. There is not a woman in
[20:39] Speaker 2: there that has not had some kind of abuse or
[20:42] Speaker 2: experience with it or at some point in time So
[20:47] Speaker 2: if we're then doing that to each other, what does
[20:49] Speaker 2: that make us? And if I'm well enough to not
[20:53] Speaker 2: fight it like that and then I become a target
[20:55] Speaker 2: by others, which didn't happen because that's kind of what
[20:58] Speaker 2: I was expecting. And some of the young ones were like,
[21:01] Speaker 2: I should have just belted her, you know, something, whatever, whatnot.
[21:04] Speaker 2: But that in itself for me then changed everything within
[21:09] Speaker 2: me because I knew in the past I would have
[21:12] Speaker 2: become that environment.
[21:14] Speaker 1: Wow. That story, interesting insight. And I think, yeah, you
[21:21] Speaker 1: said about becoming part of your environment and that's how
[21:23] Speaker 1: you lived your life and probably the way that you
[21:25] Speaker 1: were brought up to live your life. It's a watershed
[21:28] Speaker 1: moment there because, yeah, quite obviously you could have turned
[21:31] Speaker 1: it on and it could have just escalated and escalated
[21:33] Speaker 1: and then all of a sudden you're going to be
[21:35] Speaker 1: the hard ass out in the yard and ready to
[21:37] Speaker 1: fight anyone. But yeah, You handled it with emotional intelligence.
[21:44] Speaker 1: And I like the fact that you identified it was
[21:47] Speaker 1: a potential or it was a turning point in that
[21:50] Speaker 1: if you punched on with her and dealt out some
[21:53] Speaker 1: summary justice, you are then becoming the environment that you're
[21:56] Speaker 1: living in.
[21:57] Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely. And I'm not that person anymore. And I
[22:00] Speaker 2: don't need to. And it was so, that was unsafe.
[22:04] Speaker 2: All of that was unsafe. Everything, every step that came
[22:06] Speaker 2: from that. And then what came from it, that that
[22:10] Speaker 2: beautiful moment because that place isn't nice and nobody feels
[22:15] Speaker 2: safe in prison. No one does really.
[22:17] Speaker 1: Even the ones strutting around like they own the place,
[22:20] Speaker 1: that's because they're fearful.
[22:22] Speaker 2: They're pretending. That's that rooster effect that we have. Like,
[22:25] Speaker 2: you know, if I strut around, people are going to
[22:27] Speaker 2: peck people. They'll leave me alone, right, and the ones
[22:30] Speaker 2: in groups. And what then happened for me was that
[22:33] Speaker 2: I had this space that I could just sit and
[22:36] Speaker 2: I could listen to people's stories.
[22:38] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[22:39] Speaker 2: Not ask too many questions. It's not the place to
[22:41] Speaker 2: ask questions. But when they were open to it, I'd
[22:44] Speaker 2: ask questions. Where do you come from? What's your backstory?
[22:46] Speaker 2: Where are your kids? That kind of thing. And the
[22:49] Speaker 2: stories that I heard all had the same kind of
[22:53] Speaker 2: thread through them. I've lost my kids. They're telling me
[22:56] Speaker 2: that when I get out to get my kids back,
[22:58] Speaker 2: I need to find somewhere to live. I need to
[23:01] Speaker 2: get a job. I need to do all these things.
[23:04] Speaker 2: But no one helps me. I'm released with the clothes
[23:09] Speaker 2: on my back that probably don't fit me anymore because
[23:12] Speaker 2: women are a little bit different than men. Men go
[23:14] Speaker 2: into prison and start training and get fit and all
[23:16] Speaker 2: that kind of stuff.
[23:16] Speaker 1: They come out muscled up. Yeah.
[23:17] Speaker 2: Women put on weight usually. They comfort eat and whatever
[23:21] Speaker 2: it is that they do. You know, there is no–
[23:26] Speaker 2: let's look at the stats for a minute around women
[23:29] Speaker 2: that come into prison. I think about three-thirds of them
[23:34] Speaker 2: are homeless when they enter prison. Yeah. Half– of women
[23:38] Speaker 2: released from prison are homeless.
[23:41] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[23:42] Speaker 2: They have nowhere to go. They're going to go and
[23:44] Speaker 2: live on someone's couch or if they're lucky, they've got
[23:47] Speaker 2: a parent that will take them in. And usually it's
[23:51] Speaker 2: back into the environment that they came out of.
[23:53] Speaker 1: And if they go back in there, it's almost inevitable.
[23:57] Speaker 1: And we talked the other day about recidivism and the
[23:59] Speaker 1: high rate of it. Yeah. That's what we want to
[24:02] Speaker 1: try to avoid. We do. It seems to me it
[24:04] Speaker 1: was an eye-opener for you and a Time of self-reflection,
[24:09] Speaker 1: I would suggest, when you're in prison looking at it. Okay,
[24:13] Speaker 1: why have I let my life go this way or
[24:15] Speaker 1: why have I gone this way when I look at
[24:17] Speaker 1: all these other people that are in a worse position
[24:19] Speaker 1: than I am?
[24:19] Speaker 2: Yeah. And that privilege of having– I had all the
[24:23] Speaker 2: choices in the world, right, Harry? I've– and it made
[24:29] Speaker 2: me feel shameful around having that access and always just
[24:33] Speaker 2: believing that everybody did.
[24:35] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[24:35] Speaker 2: Because I just didn't know any different. And I think
[24:38] Speaker 2: that's with a lot of people that have opinions around
[24:40] Speaker 2: people who go to prison is because that they've never
[24:43] Speaker 2: actually thought about who might be in there and why
[24:47] Speaker 2: that they might be in there. And then it's easier
[24:50] Speaker 2: to just go, oh, those bad people, they belong in there.
[24:53] Speaker 2: And then when they get out, we don't want to
[24:54] Speaker 2: give them a chance because they're bad people.
[24:56] Speaker 1: And when we talk women's prison too, and you referenced 100%
[25:00] Speaker 1: that have been subject to violence, it would be up.
[25:04] Speaker 2: Look, the research is 80% of women.
[25:08] Speaker 1: Yeah, even if it's sitting at that. Yeah. Then we're
[25:12] Speaker 1: punishing them. They're being victims and they're thrown into the
[25:15] Speaker 1: justice system and then they're being punished and put in
[25:18] Speaker 1: the prison. And there's different issues with women in prison
[25:22] Speaker 1: as compared to men. Quite often the punishment where they're
[25:26] Speaker 1: losing their children. Yeah. So then you've got children that
[25:28] Speaker 1: haven't got the mother, which is important in their life.
[25:33] Speaker 1: We have got to get it better, haven't we? Okay. Yeah.
[25:37] Speaker 1: do we need to protect society from the people that
[25:40] Speaker 1: are in prison there? You would have seen a lot
[25:43] Speaker 1: of people in there that thought, well, maybe we could
[25:46] Speaker 1: do it better.
[25:46] Speaker 2: Yeah. Most of, like 90% of the women in prison
[25:50] Speaker 2: are victims of some kind of abuse. So if we,
[25:57] Speaker 2: and I'd say it's about 100%, but I'd say the
[26:00] Speaker 2: disadvantage is really high, right? So if we continue to
[26:05] Speaker 2: punish people, women for either fighting back or trying to
[26:10] Speaker 2: do better. And every time that they are arrested, most
[26:19] Speaker 2: of them don't get bail, not like me, because they
[26:22] Speaker 2: don't have anywhere to go.
[26:24] Speaker 1: And there is that privilege that kicked in straight away
[26:26] Speaker 1: for you. You had good law-abiding people out there that
[26:31] Speaker 1: the courts would be comfortable sending you to.
[26:33] Speaker 2: But like, you know, there's a a small percent of
[26:37] Speaker 2: people in prison that we do need protection from, right?
[26:40] Speaker 2: But that's in men and women's prison, and that's a
[26:43] Speaker 2: small percent that probably really are dangerous.
[26:47] Speaker 1: I think you've probably got rough figures, and this is 30%
[26:51] Speaker 1: of prisoners in there. They're career criminals. They see prisoners
[26:55] Speaker 1: and occupational risk that they take. They'll do the crime.
[27:00] Speaker 1: They'll get out, okay, we're going to plan the robbery
[27:02] Speaker 1: better next time. They're not the ones we're going to change.
[27:05] Speaker 1: Then you've probably got 60% that have made mistakes or
[27:09] Speaker 1: their circumstances in life have led them down the wrong path.
[27:13] Speaker 1: They're the ones that we can really help. Now, if
[27:15] Speaker 1: we're doing the calculations, that's 30% career criminals, they're going
[27:19] Speaker 1: to come back in there. 60% that we might be
[27:22] Speaker 1: able to help. And then that last 10%, there's There's
[27:25] Speaker 1: people that I know in prison, people I've put in prison.
[27:28] Speaker 1: I never want to see them out. And I'm a
[27:31] Speaker 1: big believer and advocate in prison reform and the benefits
[27:35] Speaker 1: of having people come out, better people. Even the prisoners
[27:41] Speaker 1: in jail will agree that that lunatic should never be
[27:44] Speaker 1: let out. And, yeah, we put them over there. They're
[27:49] Speaker 1: a different problem, but they're not the problem we're looking at.
[27:51] Speaker 2: No, they're not the problem that we're looking at. And women...
[27:54] Speaker 2: You know, despite what people think, and I know that
[27:57] Speaker 2: it's very popular to believe that, oh, my God, she's
[28:00] Speaker 2: been to prison, she must have done something really, really bad, right?
[28:04] Speaker 2: It's that patriarchy that the woman belongs and she's the
[28:08] Speaker 2: carer and she belongs in the home and she's good.
[28:11] Speaker 2: All these beliefs that we're taught, right, through society, through
[28:16] Speaker 2: all that kind of stuff. And then the media doesn't
[28:19] Speaker 2: help either, right, in how we portray people the women
[28:23] Speaker 2: that have committed those horrendous crimes or killed their husbands
[28:26] Speaker 2: or their children or whatever it is, they're the ones
[28:29] Speaker 2: that we see. They are that small percentage. That is
[28:34] Speaker 2: not the majority of the women in prison. And they're
[28:36] Speaker 2: not the ones coming out who we're trying to find
[28:40] Speaker 2: employment for or help them get their kids back. They're
[28:43] Speaker 2: in there for a really long time. They may one
[28:45] Speaker 2: day get out and want to do all those things,
[28:47] Speaker 2: but they've actually got quite a bit of support when
[28:50] Speaker 2: they do. It's the women that are stuck. in the
[28:54] Speaker 2: cycle of abuse within their homes or whatever it is
[29:00] Speaker 2: and they become perpetrators by trying to defend themselves and
[29:03] Speaker 2: the mail then rings the police on them, gets them
[29:06] Speaker 2: thrown out, takes the kids off them. Then the kids
[29:08] Speaker 2: get abused. They try and get their kids back. They
[29:10] Speaker 2: break their AVOs. It's this perpetual cycle of violence and prison.
[29:17] Speaker 2: And every time that they get thrown in there, they
[29:20] Speaker 2: actually haven't even been found guilty of anything. So we've
[29:23] Speaker 2: got more women on remand, which means unsentenced, than we
[29:28] Speaker 2: have women sentenced.
[29:30] Speaker 1: There's an interesting statistic there, and I haven't got it,
[29:33] Speaker 1: but the amount of women on remand, so these are
[29:36] Speaker 1: for people that don't fully understand the justice system on remand.
[29:40] Speaker 1: you're in custody, you've had bail refused, but you haven't
[29:43] Speaker 1: been convicted of a crime, so on remand. The amount
[29:46] Speaker 1: of women that are on remand that by the time
[29:49] Speaker 1: their matter goes to court get released and don't serve
[29:53] Speaker 1: a custodial sentence. Thank you. Someone that we were talking
[29:56] Speaker 1: to the other day had a figure on it, and
[29:59] Speaker 1: I was shocked.
[30:00] Speaker 2: And there's a figure on, if you go to our
[30:02] Speaker 2: SuccessWorks website, we've got our impact report and there's figures
[30:05] Speaker 2: around those things on our website and in the impact report.
[30:09] Speaker 2: And there's other information if you're interested in educating yourself
[30:12] Speaker 2: around women in prison. And the Keeping Women Out of
[30:16] Speaker 2: Prison Coalition have a lot of information on those stats. But, yeah,
[30:22] Speaker 2: remand is where women lose everything, right? So, and these,
[30:27] Speaker 2: they literally, they get, thrown into jail the moment they're arrested.
[30:32] Speaker 2: They haven't seen a magistrate. They don't even know sometimes
[30:36] Speaker 2: what they're charged with. Their kids are running wild. Their
[30:39] Speaker 2: house is unlooked after. It gets robbed. All those things
[30:42] Speaker 2: happen to them. They lose everything. And then they go
[30:46] Speaker 2: before a judge after a month of being incarcerated for
[30:49] Speaker 2: something that they probably were a victim of and they
[30:52] Speaker 2: get set loose with nothing, nothing to go back to.
[30:57] Speaker 2: have to go and find where their kids have gone,
[30:59] Speaker 2: that kind of stuff, that impact that we're creating. And
[31:05] Speaker 2: why are we locking up anyone without a sentence? What
[31:10] Speaker 2: gives us the right to do that? People still have rights. Yes,
[31:13] Speaker 2: I know that they've offended in some way, shape or form,
[31:16] Speaker 2: but that's not justice. That's just, I think it's stupid.
[31:22] Speaker 1: Yeah, look, I'll push back a little bit on that.
[31:24] Speaker 1: There's some people that, yeah, the crimes that they committed
[31:28] Speaker 1: and we haven't got them convicted, but society needs.
[31:31] Speaker 2: To be protected. Sorry, I was talking about my women.
[31:34] Speaker 1: So on that aspect, but. When we talk about people
[31:39] Speaker 1: in prison, let's talk from a fiscal point of view,
[31:42] Speaker 1: like how much it costs. The figure's $ 150, 000 up to $ 180, 000. Yeah.
[31:48] Speaker 2: It's around $ 180, 000 for one woman for a year.
[31:52] Speaker 1: In custody. Yeah. Now, look at what we could do
[31:54] Speaker 1: with that money if they weren't in custody and set up.
[32:00] Speaker 1: Scandinavia have a prison system that is more of a
[32:04] Speaker 1: village prison. Give the people their life skills, respect and
[32:08] Speaker 1: all that. I've spoken many a time on this podcast
[32:12] Speaker 1: talking about Macquarie Correctional Centre where they're trying something a
[32:16] Speaker 1: little bit different and creating an environment that's more conducive
[32:20] Speaker 1: to the people in that environment, as in the inmates,
[32:25] Speaker 1: being taught social skills, education, just how to get on
[32:29] Speaker 1: with people in a community environment. I think that's better.
[32:33] Speaker 1: And you and I are both in agreement that If
[32:36] Speaker 1: people come out better than when they went into prison,
[32:39] Speaker 1: we're all winners.
[32:40] Speaker 2: Absolutely. And it will reduce crime and it will keep
[32:43] Speaker 2: families together and it will allow us to feel safer
[32:45] Speaker 2: because these people are getting the support and help they
[32:48] Speaker 2: need to create that change. And I know that a
[32:50] Speaker 2: lot of the argument is, oh, but not everybody's going
[32:53] Speaker 2: to do that. We know that, right? And that's why
[32:55] Speaker 2: prisons need to exist. Like I needed to go to prison.
[32:59] Speaker 2: I broke the law. So that's where you go. You
[33:02] Speaker 2: get your freedom taken from you. But when you come
[33:04] Speaker 2: out the other side, once you've served your time, that's
[33:08] Speaker 2: your punishment. Why are we continuing to punish people over
[33:12] Speaker 2: and over again for something that they've already paid their
[33:15] Speaker 2: dues to society for? And this is where employment is
[33:19] Speaker 2: a really difficult space to navigate because we became so
[33:23] Speaker 2: risk averse. I think it was in about 2000 where
[33:27] Speaker 2: big companies from America decided to bring in risk management
[33:30] Speaker 2: processes in HR. Yeah. And that included doing national police checks.
[33:35] Speaker 1: Right. So I wasn't aware of that.
[33:37] Speaker 2: It was in the 90s. No one ever asked you.
[33:39] Speaker 2: I remember going to an interview for a job and
[33:42] Speaker 2: someone saying, is there anything in your past we need
[33:44] Speaker 2: to know about?
[33:44] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[33:45] Speaker 2: That was the conversation. That's what the conversation should still be.
[33:49] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[33:50] Speaker 2: Because that gives people an opportunity to go, yes, there's X, Y, Z, right?
[33:55] Speaker 2: And we hope that they're honest and upfront and we
[33:57] Speaker 2: own our stuff. That's what we're going from that aspect.
[34:01] Speaker 2: But the people coming out of prison, it's not just
[34:03] Speaker 2: on employers to change the way that they hire. We
[34:06] Speaker 2: also need to give education to the people coming out
[34:09] Speaker 2: of prison. And that's what we do at SuccessWorks.
[34:11] Speaker 1: Okay. Well, let's get you out of prison so we
[34:13] Speaker 1: can get you into SuccessWorks. I'm going to open the
[34:17] Speaker 1: prison gate and we're going to let you out. You've
[34:21] Speaker 1: done your time and I think you got the last
[34:23] Speaker 1: six months of your sentence, you were allowed to home detention. Yeah.
[34:28] Speaker 2: Yeah. So- Yeah, I did ankle bracelet home detention and
[34:33] Speaker 2: was allowed a re-entry into society in a really good way.
[34:38] Speaker 2: Like I am all for that program for those that
[34:41] Speaker 2: are ready and do the right thing. It can be
[34:43] Speaker 2: fantastic because when they open those gates and you walk out, again,
[34:48] Speaker 2: it's a little bit alienating. And it doesn't matter how
[34:51] Speaker 2: long that you've done. It's just you've come from this–
[34:57] Speaker 2: strange place and you're going back into your world. So
[35:00] Speaker 2: having that soft landing and that time to arrive. So
[35:03] Speaker 2: for me, I had all of those things. Like I
[35:05] Speaker 2: was just set up to win throughout this process. I
[35:10] Speaker 2: also had the ability to advocate for myself, to speak
[35:14] Speaker 2: for myself, to make inquiries around what was happening, to
[35:18] Speaker 2: know when not to speak up, to all of those things.
[35:23] Speaker 2: If you don't have that ability, that process... Yes, they
[35:29] Speaker 2: assist you with housing and application forms and all that
[35:32] Speaker 2: kind of stuff, but a lot of women are not
[35:34] Speaker 2: well enough to engage in that help. So they don't
[35:39] Speaker 2: speak up and they don't say that I'm going to
[35:41] Speaker 2: have nowhere to go. They make up an address.
[35:44] Speaker 1: Well enough or educated enough or articulate enough.
[35:47] Speaker 2: Yeah, all of those things. So our system only works
[35:51] Speaker 2: for those that can speak show up in that way.
[35:55] Speaker 1: So you've identified all the benefits or all the advantages
[36:00] Speaker 1: you had.
[36:01] Speaker 2: I had all the advantages.
[36:02] Speaker 1: From the time. And then how did you connect with SuccessWorks?
[36:07] Speaker 2: So when you exit prison, they give you a piece
[36:10] Speaker 2: of paper with services that support women that are coming
[36:13] Speaker 2: out of prison, all sorts of different supports. And whilst
[36:16] Speaker 2: I was on home detention, I called most of those services,
[36:20] Speaker 2: asked them what they did, and engage with them in
[36:23] Speaker 2: some way, shape or form, ask them if they were hiring.
[36:25] Speaker 2: I spoke a bit about my own experience and SuccessWorks
[36:28] Speaker 2: asked me to come and do their program. I said, sure,
[36:30] Speaker 2: I'll come and do your program because when you're wearing
[36:33] Speaker 2: an ankle bracelet, you need to have activities that you're
[36:36] Speaker 2: doing to be able to leave the house. And it
[36:38] Speaker 2: was really important to get back out there. So I did,
[36:40] Speaker 2: I went and did their program and kind of after
[36:43] Speaker 2: the workshop said, look, I really don't need the support
[36:45] Speaker 2: that you're offering. I can do all of that stuff,
[36:47] Speaker 2: like the resume writing, cover letters, job search, all of
[36:51] Speaker 2: those things. But I really want to step into this space.
[36:55] Speaker 2: This is what I've experienced and this is the space
[36:57] Speaker 2: that I'd love to work in. So I didn't hear
[37:01] Speaker 2: from them for a while. And then I got an
[37:03] Speaker 2: email and a phone call from one of my colleagues
[37:05] Speaker 2: who I now work with. And she goes, oh, we're
[37:08] Speaker 2: about to hire and we'd really encourage you to apply.
[37:10] Speaker 2: There were two roles. I applied for them both. And
[37:14] Speaker 2: I went to my interview for the actual job with
[37:17] Speaker 2: my ankle bracelet on and asked them, I said, oh,
[37:19] Speaker 2: do you want to know anything about my offending? And
[37:22] Speaker 2: they went, no, not interested. But it was part of
[37:24] Speaker 2: the requirements for the role to have experience with the
[37:27] Speaker 2: criminal justice system or the criminal legal system, whatever you
[37:30] Speaker 2: want to call it. And I then– my ankle bracelet
[37:34] Speaker 2: came off on the 10th of– July 2024, and on
[37:39] Speaker 2: the 15th of July 2024, I started my role at
[37:43] Speaker 2: SuccessWorks Partners as the Employment and Training Program Coordinator.
[37:47] Speaker 1: How did it feel? First of all, how did it
[37:49] Speaker 1: feel with the ankle bracelet off?
[37:52] Speaker 2: It was pretty cool. I didn't mind wearing it. I wasn't–
[37:57] Speaker 2: the privilege was great, right, and I really embraced it
[38:03] Speaker 2: because I didn't think– I thought I was going to
[38:04] Speaker 2: be in prison for 15 months.
[38:06] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[38:07] Speaker 2: So that freedom, I didn't care. And I had really
[38:13] Speaker 2: great offices that ran my program. They were really open, like,
[38:18] Speaker 2: you know, anything to do with health and fitness. So
[38:22] Speaker 2: I'd go beach walking every day, swim in the ocean,
[38:25] Speaker 2: and really got to do those things that kept me well.
[38:27] Speaker 1: So they were comfortable with you doing that.
[38:30] Speaker 2: Yeah, so as long as they know where, so you'd
[38:32] Speaker 2: have to show where you were going and then, you know,
[38:35] Speaker 2: so that doesn't go off because you're out of. the
[38:38] Speaker 2: area that you're meant to be in and the time
[38:40] Speaker 2: that you're going. So you have to report each week.
[38:42] Speaker 2: So you've got to be really organized. So it won't
[38:44] Speaker 2: work for somebody that's still in addiction and who's running
[38:47] Speaker 2: around and they release with an ankle bracelet. They're just
[38:49] Speaker 2: going to end up back in jail, right? And it's
[38:51] Speaker 2: a waste of the program, I feel. So I think
[38:55] Speaker 2: that assessment needs to be done properly that it will
[38:58] Speaker 2: benefit those that are ready to do the right thing.
[39:01] Speaker 1: With SuccessWorks. Just before we get into that stupid question,
[39:06] Speaker 1: but the ankle bracelets, because you make jewellery, do you
[39:09] Speaker 1: think they could design them in a better way?
[39:11] Speaker 2: Look, I thought about bejewelling my like sticky diamantes and
[39:14] Speaker 2: stuff on it and then I just went, no, just
[39:16] Speaker 2: leave it alone. Don't tamper with it. If that's the
[39:18] Speaker 2: price of the freedom that I had for those six months.
[39:21] Speaker 1: Yeah, it's small.
[39:21] Speaker 2: It's a very small price.
[39:22] Speaker 1: And look, on that, joking about it, I think that
[39:26] Speaker 1: we've got to look at those options too because we've
[39:28] Speaker 1: got the technology now. that virtually you could FaceTime everywhere
[39:32] Speaker 1: you go. Absolutely. Yeah. These are the type of things
[39:36] Speaker 1: that we've got to look at with the technology. How
[39:38] Speaker 1: can we improve corrective services or the judicial system?
[39:42] Speaker 2: Yeah.
[39:43] Speaker 1: As long as we've got to take that mentality away,
[39:46] Speaker 1: that rage of we need these criminals punished because of that.
[39:49] Speaker 1: And you identify the point, and I hadn't thought about that,
[39:52] Speaker 1: when you were saying with the media we highlight the
[39:54] Speaker 1: really bad ones. We only highlight them. There's no front
[39:58] Speaker 1: page or lead story about someone that's gone in for
[40:01] Speaker 1: a minor offence and in for six months prison. You
[40:03] Speaker 1: never hear about that.
[40:04] Speaker 2: And lost everything and was trying to defend themselves so
[40:08] Speaker 2: that they could survive from their partner or whatever the
[40:12] Speaker 2: situation was, right? We don't hear those stories.
[40:14] Speaker 1: No. So every time we hear a story about people
[40:17] Speaker 1: going into jail, it's usually a horrific crime.
[40:20] Speaker 2: Or it's sensationalized. Like I look at my media articles
[40:23] Speaker 2: and I just have to laugh.
[40:27] Speaker 1: I was looking through some of the articles. I should
[40:29] Speaker 1: have brought it out now that you've raised it, but
[40:31] Speaker 1: I thought, no, I won't embarrass you.
[40:32] Speaker 2: No, I don't care. I put them on my, they're
[40:34] Speaker 2: on my Instagram.
[40:35] Speaker 1: Right. Okay.
[40:36] Speaker 2: And I took photos of the main pages. I had
[40:40] Speaker 2: You either take accountability of it all and own the
[40:44] Speaker 2: cringe as well because it's part of it, right? And
[40:48] Speaker 2: I don't believe that people that have been convicted of
[40:52] Speaker 2: a crime should not have any privacy rights. I don't
[40:56] Speaker 2: believe that what we do with that is okay. And
[40:59] Speaker 2: I believe that the media should speak to the actual
[41:02] Speaker 2: person rather than write from the facts in court. and
[41:06] Speaker 2: sensationalise it, right? I think there should be a little
[41:09] Speaker 2: bit more accountability around how those reports are written.
[41:12] Speaker 1: It's not black and white. You've got to look at
[41:14] Speaker 1: it from all different perspectives.
[41:16] Speaker 2: You do. And life's not black and white and people
[41:19] Speaker 2: definitely are not, right? And if you're trying to live
[41:22] Speaker 2: life doing black and white and popping everybody in these
[41:26] Speaker 2: two boxes, it's a really painful place to be.
[41:30] Speaker 1: So if we get back to SuccessWorks, I had a
[41:32] Speaker 1: look and it some strategies that SuccessWorks employment support. Talk
[41:39] Speaker 1: us through that.
[41:40] Speaker 2: Okay. So basically at SuccessWorks, we support women. It is
[41:45] Speaker 2: just for women only, our program, who have a criminal history.
[41:48] Speaker 2: So it doesn't mean you have to have gone to prison.
[41:50] Speaker 2: It's anybody that has a record. And then that record
[41:53] Speaker 2: is impacting how they're able to gain employment. My role, firstly,
[41:59] Speaker 2: I'll go into, I support the women through a work
[42:02] Speaker 2: readiness program. with my colleagues as well, but I do
[42:07] Speaker 2: the part about disclosure and how to show up when
[42:09] Speaker 2: to disclose, when not to, how you can approach an
[42:12] Speaker 2: employer if there is a police check required and you
[42:15] Speaker 2: feel you'd like to disclose. So we teach them how
[42:17] Speaker 2: to not trauma dump, right, because the worst thing that
[42:21] Speaker 2: could happen is so you want to tell your story
[42:24] Speaker 2: but suddenly you just blurt everything out from an unnecessary thing.
[42:28] Speaker 2: So don't belong in a professional settings. So we really
[42:32] Speaker 2: work on that.
[42:33] Speaker 1: Would that be something like I'm declaring to the potential
[42:36] Speaker 1: employer that I've got a criminal history and instead of saying, look,
[42:41] Speaker 1: two years ago or six months ago, I got in trouble.
[42:44] Speaker 1: It was a fraud related offence and I did time.
[42:47] Speaker 1: I regret what I did. And instead of going, well,
[42:51] Speaker 1: I had this and I can imagine them spilling out
[42:54] Speaker 1: way too much. You should just keep a sanitised version
[42:58] Speaker 1: of it and explain yourself that way. Absolutely.
[43:01] Speaker 2: And we want able to, if you want to show
[43:05] Speaker 2: that you've created change, you need to own your shit.
[43:09] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[43:09] Speaker 2: Excuse my language, but you do, you need to own it.
[43:12] Speaker 2: And we don't mean you need to own what happened
[43:14] Speaker 2: to you because some records have to do, they're the victim,
[43:19] Speaker 2: something horrible happened to them. We're not asking you to
[43:21] Speaker 2: own the incident or the occurrence. You need to own
[43:26] Speaker 2: that you now have a criminal history and that that
[43:28] Speaker 2: is part of your journey and you need to To
[43:32] Speaker 2: allow people to have their judgments around it.
[43:36] Speaker 1: Yep. Right?
[43:36] Speaker 2: And their own stories that they make up. But you
[43:38] Speaker 2: need to be able to own it and present yourself
[43:41] Speaker 2: to an employer, let's say.
[43:43] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[43:45] Speaker 2: Without making excuses and to show who you are today.
[43:49] Speaker 1: Yeah. Right?
[43:50] Speaker 2: Because I could imagine if- It's about accountability.
[43:52] Speaker 1: That's the word. Potentially an employer, if you're seeing there going,
[43:56] Speaker 1: I was charged, but the cops loaded me up. I didn't. Yeah.
[44:00] Speaker 1: And I'd be sitting there thinking, well, you haven't really
[44:04] Speaker 1: taken responsibility.
[44:05] Speaker 2: You've just nailed it. So that's kind of what we
[44:07] Speaker 2: work with the women with. We have women that do
[44:12] Speaker 2: not want to. There's so much trauma attached to their record.
[44:15] Speaker 2: They don't want to do disclosure and turnaround talks. We
[44:18] Speaker 2: call them turnaround talks. And that's okay too. But it
[44:20] Speaker 2: obviously then minimizes the pool of opportunity. I, in my role,
[44:25] Speaker 2: also work with employers. So I go out and I advocate.
[44:28] Speaker 2: I connect with different businesses and employers and anyone within
[44:33] Speaker 2: New South Wales because we support women all over New
[44:36] Speaker 2: South Wales and sit down and ask them how they hire,
[44:41] Speaker 2: what their practices are, what is their risk management and
[44:45] Speaker 2: have an honest conversation around it. and see how we
[44:48] Speaker 2: can maybe make that more inclusive.
[44:50] Speaker 1: Are you getting people buying into that? Because I could
[44:52] Speaker 1: see the organisations thinking there could be a lot. Not
[44:57] Speaker 1: only are we doing something good for society, because that's
[45:00] Speaker 1: a tick the box, but if you've got people that
[45:03] Speaker 1: are grateful for a job, they're going to work very
[45:06] Speaker 1: hard for you.
[45:07] Speaker 2: They do.
[45:07] Speaker 1: And they want to prove themselves. There could be a
[45:10] Speaker 1: lot of benefits from hiring.
[45:12] Speaker 2: Absolutely, there's benefits. And from... we look for meaningful employment
[45:16] Speaker 2: for our women because employment itself is great, but just
[45:20] Speaker 2: a job might be okay for a while. It's about
[45:23] Speaker 2: having that purpose because it's about creating, it's part of
[45:27] Speaker 2: that change journey. A person that finds meaningful employment and
[45:31] Speaker 2: is given a chance when they have had that many
[45:33] Speaker 2: rejections over and over again, or haven't even been seen
[45:37] Speaker 2: because the police check is required, it's a tick box
[45:41] Speaker 2: or it's a drop down menu or it's, Something that
[45:44] Speaker 2: does not, it's so disheartening, right? So you've put in
[45:48] Speaker 2: all the work, you've done your counselling, you've finished parole,
[45:51] Speaker 2: you've done all of these things and now you just
[45:53] Speaker 2: want to get a job?
[45:54] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[45:55] Speaker 2: Because you got your kids back, you want to buy
[45:56] Speaker 2: them Christmas presents and be able to provide for your
[45:59] Speaker 2: family because you're a single mum and you just keep
[46:02] Speaker 2: getting told no. You don't get a look in at
[46:06] Speaker 2: all because of these pre-screening selection processes. That woman who
[46:12] Speaker 2: is then given a chance- because she stood up and went,
[46:15] Speaker 2: I have a record and I'd like to do my
[46:18] Speaker 2: turnaround talk or show you my turnaround packet of the
[46:21] Speaker 2: things that I've achieved and who I am today. And
[46:24] Speaker 2: then that employee gives her a job. She will show up,
[46:28] Speaker 2: she will lift employee performance and will bring facets to
[46:33] Speaker 2: your team that you didn't even know were there. And
[46:36] Speaker 2: that is what we've experienced. So to take it back
[46:40] Speaker 2: to kind of recidivism rate, New South Wales has a
[46:43] Speaker 2: recidivism rate of around 50%. SuccessWorks has a recidivism rate
[46:48] Speaker 2: of about 11%.
[46:49] Speaker 1: Once they've got that employment pointed in the right direction.
[46:53] Speaker 2: And also the growth and the exposure to a different environment,
[46:59] Speaker 2: a safe environment, learning new skills, the support that we
[47:03] Speaker 2: continue to give them so we don't just do the
[47:07] Speaker 2: work readiness, match them with an employer.
[47:09] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[47:10] Speaker 2: If we have that employment or help them find their
[47:12] Speaker 2: own employment.
[47:13] Speaker 1: You stay in contact with them.
[47:14] Speaker 2: Yes, we do.
[47:16] Speaker 1: That's important because we all have low moments and if
[47:19] Speaker 1: you've gone down a bad path sometimes in that low moment,
[47:22] Speaker 1: stuff it. I'm going back to what I know best.
[47:25] Speaker 2: And we also have a volunteer mentor program. So women
[47:28] Speaker 2: from all walks of life and from different industries volunteer
[47:32] Speaker 2: their time to mentor our women. And they are given
[47:35] Speaker 2: training and then it's a six-month mentorship program. where they
[47:38] Speaker 2: support our women on their employment search journey with resume writing,
[47:43] Speaker 2: interview skills, all that kind of that stuff. And it's
[47:46] Speaker 2: also a connection to the community that these women may
[47:49] Speaker 2: not have had before.
[47:50] Speaker 1: That would be rewarding both.
[47:51] Speaker 2: Ways, wouldn't it?
[47:53] Speaker 1: It is. I would imagine people get a lot from
[47:55] Speaker 1: helping someone like that. The education component, do you encourage people?
[48:01] Speaker 2: Absolutely, we do.
[48:02] Speaker 1: And I often– I cringe when we– have the state
[48:07] Speaker 1: elections and you get tougher and more in order, we're
[48:09] Speaker 1: going to get more police and we're going to make
[48:10] Speaker 1: tougher laws, put the money into education. Because I think education,
[48:16] Speaker 1: not only it helps employment, but I think it gives people,
[48:20] Speaker 1: they start to respect themselves, their dignity is restored.
[48:23] Speaker 2: And for us, our women, we solely focus on employment.
[48:31] Speaker 2: It's our main, it's what we do. But Our women
[48:35] Speaker 2: come with so many different layers of different needs and
[48:40] Speaker 2: wants and readiness factors as well. And we find that,
[48:45] Speaker 2: you know, if they are not really stable in a
[48:48] Speaker 2: home or don't have somewhere consistent to sleep, it's really
[48:52] Speaker 2: hard to show up for an interview on time or
[48:55] Speaker 2: those kinds of things. And when 50% or, yeah, half
[49:00] Speaker 2: of the women that are released are released into homelessness...
[49:04] Speaker 2: How do we support them with that? So we refer
[49:07] Speaker 2: out to other services. But, you know, we've got a
[49:10] Speaker 2: crisis here around housing, which is massive. And if we
[49:16] Speaker 2: can help the women find somewhere safe to live and
[49:18] Speaker 2: then provide employment pathways that are inclusive where people are
[49:25] Speaker 2: not judged for their past but on what they're doing now,
[49:29] Speaker 2: if they go and do a TAFE course and get
[49:32] Speaker 2: the qualification, let's open the door for them. Because my
[49:37] Speaker 2: question is always what risk– Are we trying to manage
[49:41] Speaker 2: that doesn't also come with someone that doesn't have a record?
[49:45] Speaker 2: And if somebody can answer that for me, because who
[49:49] Speaker 2: I'm hiring without a criminal history, I just don't get
[49:52] Speaker 2: that piece of paper that tells me what they once
[49:54] Speaker 2: did or may have done or where they've been. I
[49:59] Speaker 2: don't know where they've been. They might come into my
[50:02] Speaker 2: business and rob me. Whereas the person that you're giving
[50:05] Speaker 2: a chance is not going to commit a crime in
[50:07] Speaker 2: your business.
[50:08] Speaker 1: Right?
[50:09] Speaker 2: Whereas the person that you don't know and doesn't have
[50:11] Speaker 2: a record could more than likely do that to you
[50:15] Speaker 2: and you won't even know.
[50:16] Speaker 1: The person that's come in with a record, they know
[50:19] Speaker 1: eyes are going to be on them. You call it
[50:22] Speaker 1: the turnaround package. Is that a formal terminology or is
[50:27] Speaker 1: that just.
[50:27] Speaker 2: It's something that we've adopted. We've just created a guide
[50:33] Speaker 2: on how to recruit women with a record and we
[50:36] Speaker 2: use the terminology in there. I found it on an
[50:39] Speaker 2: American website that does that. And I love the terminology
[50:43] Speaker 2: around it. So Turnaround Talk and a Turnaround Package. And
[50:46] Speaker 2: a Turnaround Package is having like all your educational pieces
[50:50] Speaker 2: in there, your psychologist evaluation, a reference from somebody saying,
[50:56] Speaker 2: I know that you said you made a reference, having
[51:00] Speaker 2: that reference in there from somebody that, you know, they're
[51:03] Speaker 2: going to go, oh, yeah, that's great, right?
[51:04] Speaker 1: Right.
[51:05] Speaker 2: And being able to present that with your resume or
[51:09] Speaker 2: at the interview or at the point in time where
[51:13] Speaker 2: before they do the police check.
[51:15] Speaker 1: And it gives them something tangible walking in and they
[51:17] Speaker 1: can actually see it by just getting that put together.
[51:20] Speaker 1: Funding for running this, where's that coming from?
[51:24] Speaker 2: So we're a non-for-profit. Yep. We have government grants and
[51:29] Speaker 2: also philanthropic funding. But, you know, we're a small niche organisation.
[51:35] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[51:36] Speaker 2: And it's tough for us to get funding and we
[51:39] Speaker 2: fall through the cracks. And if you look at, I'm
[51:41] Speaker 2: going to take it back to the $ 180, 000 a year
[51:44] Speaker 2: for one woman in prison. Yeah. Right? It takes $ 11, 000
[51:48] Speaker 2: to put a woman through our program, to engage a
[51:51] Speaker 2: woman in our program.
[51:52] Speaker 1: Well, then if you fall back on those statistics, 50%
[51:55] Speaker 1: recidivism without going through your program and it drops down
[51:59] Speaker 1: to 11%. I'm not an accountant, but I can see
[52:01] Speaker 1: this is, yeah, it makes sense.
[52:03] Speaker 2: It's a no-brainer. So- And I know that a lot
[52:06] Speaker 2: of frontline organisations like us, we really struggle because we're
[52:10] Speaker 2: small and we're not everybody's cup of tea, right? We
[52:15] Speaker 2: fall through those cracks with funding. And it's not for
[52:20] Speaker 2: lack of trying. We have part of our team that
[52:23] Speaker 2: do apply for grants on a regular basis. We're always
[52:27] Speaker 2: looking for funding. And what I love, probably the most
[52:31] Speaker 2: about SuccessWorks. In the two years that I've been here,
[52:33] Speaker 2: we have grown as an organisation and we not only go, okay, employers,
[52:40] Speaker 2: we want you to open your doors, hire women, be
[52:43] Speaker 2: more inclusive, we'll support you through that process. We're the
[52:45] Speaker 2: experts in that space. But we've created a social enterprise
[52:50] Speaker 2: test and tagging service. So it's an electrical compliance service
[52:54] Speaker 2: and we hire the women first.
[52:55] Speaker 1: Okay, so you're getting them qualified so they can go
[52:59] Speaker 1: around and test the leads and electrical equipment in offices.
[53:02] Speaker 2: And for women that have no previous work experience, have
[53:05] Speaker 2: never been in a workplace, that mainstream employment space is scary.
[53:11] Speaker 2: It eats them up, chews them up, spits them out.
[53:16] Speaker 2: And so giving them this inclusive space where we support
[53:20] Speaker 2: them and encourage teach them as well, some work readiness
[53:25] Speaker 2: skills as well, workplace etiquette, all those things that we
[53:28] Speaker 2: take for granted who have had, I've had lots of
[53:31] Speaker 2: jobs in my time.
[53:32] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[53:32] Speaker 2: I've worked in lots of different countries. So I know
[53:34] Speaker 2: what belongs.
[53:35] Speaker 1: How to turn up and present. Yeah.
[53:37] Speaker 2: They don't. They've never been taught this and it can
[53:40] Speaker 2: be really alienating, especially if you're not a 16-year-old or
[53:45] Speaker 2: a 17-year-old. You're a mum, a middle-aged woman, and you
[53:49] Speaker 2: don't know how to show up in a workplace that
[53:51] Speaker 2: can bring shame, embarrassment, all those things. So what we've
[53:55] Speaker 2: created is a space where these women can learn and
[53:58] Speaker 2: earn money.
[53:59] Speaker 1: It sounds like you're adopting a holistic approach to it.
[54:02] Speaker 1: We do. It's not just point them in a direction. No.
[54:06] Speaker 1: I like the fact that you're advocating with organisations to
[54:11] Speaker 1: look at the potential there as a work market that
[54:14] Speaker 1: might be beneficial to the organisation. That's an important thing.
[54:19] Speaker 1: Very early, and it changed my thinking when I started
[54:22] Speaker 1: the podcast. So we're going back about five or six
[54:24] Speaker 1: years ago. I had Steve Fenwick from Fruit to Work
[54:29] Speaker 1: down in Victoria. And he pointed out a couple of
[54:34] Speaker 1: things to me that I hadn't even appreciated. But just
[54:38] Speaker 1: they were hiring people for six months after they got
[54:42] Speaker 1: out of prison so they could help prepare to go
[54:45] Speaker 1: get a job. and simple things like you just said,
[54:48] Speaker 1: how they present for the interview. He was saying that, yeah,
[54:52] Speaker 1: have a shower, tidy yourself up, wear a good set
[54:55] Speaker 1: of clothes, little things like that that we take for granted.
[54:59] Speaker 1: But if you've been in custody or disadvantaged for a
[55:03] Speaker 1: lot of different reasons, these are the little things that
[55:05] Speaker 1: you might consider. But I like the idea. I think
[55:09] Speaker 1: it's a great idea.
[55:10] Speaker 2: You know, the fact that for me, with my employment journey,
[55:16] Speaker 2: Finding purpose in prison on I want to work within
[55:20] Speaker 2: this space, there has to be more done for women
[55:22] Speaker 2: that have been incarcerated. What that looks like, I had
[55:25] Speaker 2: no idea. But that's what drove me when I came
[55:28] Speaker 2: out and having that diploma in counselling just really kind
[55:31] Speaker 2: of opened up the opportunities for me. So it was
[55:35] Speaker 2: perfect timing around that. And my extensive work history obviously
[55:39] Speaker 2: helps with all the different things that I've done and
[55:41] Speaker 2: I can– you know, the different industries and I don't
[55:44] Speaker 2: have to learn from scratch because I'm not from a
[55:46] Speaker 2: recruitment background. And we're not a recruitment agency. We support
[55:51] Speaker 2: women and employers to change the way that they're hired
[55:59] Speaker 2: and that they hire, right? And we really, it's tough
[56:03] Speaker 2: because people are time poor, people are risk adverse. And
[56:06] Speaker 2: we sometimes have, you know, a hiring manager that just goes, yeah, absolutely.
[56:11] Speaker 2: I want to get on board with this. And then
[56:14] Speaker 2: the top goes, no.
[56:15] Speaker 1: No, we're not going to take that risk.
[56:16] Speaker 2: No, we can't. And it's, you don't even get the
[56:20] Speaker 2: conversation with them.
[56:21] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[56:22] Speaker 2: And that is probably the hardest bit of my role is,
[56:26] Speaker 2: am I talking to the right person within that organization?
[56:30] Speaker 2: And how then also do they put it into practice?
[56:34] Speaker 1: Yeah. Right?
[56:35] Speaker 2: Because yes. We're giving you a skilled employee who's going
[56:41] Speaker 2: to show up, do the job, but they do come
[56:44] Speaker 2: with other multifaceted side of things and probably need a
[56:49] Speaker 2: little bit of extra support, which we'll give you, them
[56:53] Speaker 2: and you as the employer. But because we're time poor, again,
[56:58] Speaker 2: those things sometimes don't happen, right? Yeah. So it's about finding...
[57:06] Speaker 2: This is what I've learned over the last two years.
[57:08] Speaker 2: It's about finding employers that really want to create that inclusion,
[57:13] Speaker 2: that know that it takes more than just a conversation
[57:17] Speaker 2: with us, that they get their whole entire team on board.
[57:22] Speaker 2: And our redefining recruitment guide that we've just launched has
[57:28] Speaker 2: a training package as well with it, a training day,
[57:32] Speaker 2: and it's for– HR, executives, hiring managers, just employers who
[57:39] Speaker 2: run their own business, to have a think about where
[57:42] Speaker 2: they sit too. Because something that I've realized as well,
[57:45] Speaker 2: if we don't address our own biases around how we
[57:48] Speaker 2: feel about the people that go to prison or have
[57:51] Speaker 2: a record, we can't be inclusive around it. And we
[57:55] Speaker 2: need to sit down and go, why do I feel
[57:57] Speaker 2: that way? Where does that bias come from? Is it realistic?
[58:01] Speaker 2: Is it based on my own experiences? And we're not
[58:04] Speaker 2: telling you that anything is right or wrong, but let's
[58:06] Speaker 2: look into it. And then I would prefer for a
[58:09] Speaker 2: hiring manager or an exec to go, I don't want
[58:13] Speaker 2: to do this because it doesn't sit right with me.
[58:17] Speaker 2: Then someone just not responding back.
[58:20] Speaker 1: Let's say you're encouraging to at least have a look
[58:23] Speaker 1: at it and hear us out and what can be
[58:26] Speaker 1: lost from it.
[58:27] Speaker 2: And we're not. peddling you problems, we're giving you employees
[58:32] Speaker 2: that will show up and they will apply for the
[58:35] Speaker 2: role and go through the process. We're just asking to have,
[58:41] Speaker 2: let's look at the systems that we've created that exclude,
[58:47] Speaker 2: and not just people with a record, but people with
[58:49] Speaker 2: a disability, people with a mental illness, all those things.
[58:54] Speaker 2: prevent people from the systems.
[58:54] Speaker 1: Yeah, well, you see a lot of money spent on
[58:57] Speaker 1: advertising hiring people with disabilities. You see that, which is
[59:00] Speaker 1: a great initiative as well. Look, I'm impressed by what
[59:06] Speaker 1: you're doing. I really agree with it. If you The
[59:11] Speaker 1: way we fight crime just doesn't seem right to me.
[59:13] Speaker 1: And that sounds like it must be a pretty stupid
[59:16] Speaker 1: person because I worked in the cops for 30 years.
[59:18] Speaker 1: But I think we can do better. I really do. Yeah.
[59:23] Speaker 1: We try to get smart on crime instead of tough
[59:26] Speaker 1: on crime. And recidivism. We don't want people going back
[59:30] Speaker 1: to jail. If jail worked for you, you went to
[59:33] Speaker 1: jail and you've come out a different person.
[59:36] Speaker 2: But not because of what I did in there.
[59:38] Speaker 1: Not because of what you did.
[59:39] Speaker 2: Or what they offered me in there, right? And that's
[59:41] Speaker 2: the thing. There is time in there for both men
[59:45] Speaker 2: and women to be engaged in not just prison-run programs
[59:51] Speaker 2: but externally run programs, education being taken in there and
[59:57] Speaker 2: given to them while they're in that space so that
[1:00:01] Speaker 2: when they then exit, there's also then a pathway and
[1:00:04] Speaker 2: an employer that is open to hiring them. So there
[1:00:07] Speaker 2: needs to be a whole flow through. And for some reason,
[1:00:11] Speaker 2: it seems like everybody that goes into the prisons to
[1:00:15] Speaker 2: deliver programs is then at some point locked out again
[1:00:19] Speaker 2: and it doesn't continue or they can't come in or,
[1:00:23] Speaker 2: you know, there's all these barriers. I know it's not simple.
[1:00:26] Speaker 2: But if we can start utilising that time, and I
[1:00:31] Speaker 2: think you guys with the men's program were saying, so
[1:00:35] Speaker 2: the guys that were perpetrators of domestic violence, they go
[1:00:39] Speaker 2: into prison and there's all these other blokes that do
[1:00:41] Speaker 2: the same and they sit around for 10 months together
[1:00:44] Speaker 2: and tell each other how great that they are and
[1:00:46] Speaker 2: that they've done nothing wrong and they come out and
[1:00:48] Speaker 2: they do the same thing again.
[1:00:49] Speaker 1: I think that's a recipe for disaster. If I'm sitting
[1:00:52] Speaker 1: in a cell and I'm inside because I breached an
[1:00:54] Speaker 1: AVO because of my relationship and I'm sitting in the
[1:00:58] Speaker 1: cell with someone else that's done that. We spend 10
[1:01:00] Speaker 1: months complaining and getting angry and angry and then they
[1:01:04] Speaker 1: let us out.
[1:01:04] Speaker 2: It's the same with women that have committed a crime
[1:01:08] Speaker 2: or they're in there for drugs or whatever that they're
[1:01:11] Speaker 2: engaging in and then they're in there with all those
[1:01:13] Speaker 2: other women that are doing exactly the same thing. And
[1:01:16] Speaker 2: what happens is they all congregate together in their little groups.
[1:01:22] Speaker 2: If you don't have the wellness within yourself and the
[1:01:27] Speaker 2: ability to go, that's not what I want anymore, you're
[1:01:31] Speaker 2: not going to– it doesn't work like that. We're not
[1:01:33] Speaker 2: giving these women that want different or men anything else.
[1:01:39] Speaker 2: And like you said, out at Macquarie, they did that well.
[1:01:41] Speaker 2: They were doing that. There are some prisons that do
[1:01:44] Speaker 2: it really well, but we need to do it throughout
[1:01:46] Speaker 2: all of them.
[1:01:47] Speaker 1: And look at it from all different ways of dealing
[1:01:51] Speaker 1: with it. It's not the one– thing is going to
[1:01:53] Speaker 1: fix everything. What you're doing post-prison with the people that
[1:01:59] Speaker 1: have been released with employment and everything else, that needs
[1:02:02] Speaker 1: to start. Well, you've identified start before you even go
[1:02:05] Speaker 1: into prison.
[1:02:06] Speaker 2: Absolutely.
[1:02:07] Speaker 1: Continue through prison and then outside the prison. And I
[1:02:11] Speaker 1: know when I was doing that Breaking Badness series with
[1:02:14] Speaker 1: Macquarie Correctional Centre, one of the concerns were, okay, if
[1:02:18] Speaker 1: they get it right in prison, but then when they
[1:02:20] Speaker 1: get let out, We haven't got the pathway set up
[1:02:23] Speaker 1: for them to succeed outside of prison.
[1:02:26] Speaker 2: So they go back to what they know. And if
[1:02:29] Speaker 2: you don't have– there's these points in the journey of change.
[1:02:33] Speaker 2: Because imagine– so I lived my life for 30 years
[1:02:39] Speaker 2: in that space, right, out of making choices from that
[1:02:43] Speaker 2: trauma or whatever it was to unlearn that 30 years
[1:02:47] Speaker 2: of acting, right? This stuff takes time.
[1:02:51] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[1:02:52] Speaker 2: You don't always get it right the first time. So
[1:02:55] Speaker 2: if we, every time that someone has a, I'm going
[1:02:58] Speaker 2: to call it a slip, lock them back up, we're
[1:03:00] Speaker 2: putting them right back all the way and probably taking,
[1:03:04] Speaker 2: we're stripping a little bit of change off them every
[1:03:08] Speaker 2: single time that we do that.
[1:03:09] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[1:03:10] Speaker 2: If they are then told, okay, we see that you've
[1:03:13] Speaker 2: done all of this, right, we're giving you merit for
[1:03:16] Speaker 2: all this work that you've done, We've seen you slip,
[1:03:18] Speaker 2: but we're going to support you here because we want
[1:03:20] Speaker 2: you to become a member of society again, a community,
[1:03:24] Speaker 2: and be safe and well and all of kind of that.
[1:03:27] Speaker 2: People are more likely to succeed.
[1:03:29] Speaker 1: Talking money, I never thought about tax when I was
[1:03:32] Speaker 1: a cop because the tax was taken out before you
[1:03:34] Speaker 1: got paid. Now working for myself as a company, I
[1:03:38] Speaker 1: get paid, then you've got to give the money back
[1:03:40] Speaker 1: to the government. I am starting to question where our
[1:03:42] Speaker 1: money goes.
[1:03:43] Speaker 2: I want to know where it goes, right? And if
[1:03:45] Speaker 2: I look at those figures.
[1:03:46] Speaker 1: They need to be accountable.
[1:03:47] Speaker 2: And then corrective services is an industry.
[1:03:50] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[1:03:51] Speaker 2: It generates revenue. So we're paying tax to incarcerate these
[1:03:56] Speaker 2: people and that revenue that's generated is used as well.
[1:04:01] Speaker 2: So what's wrong here? There's something really wrong here in
[1:04:06] Speaker 2: how we think that prison is a solution to anything.
[1:04:10] Speaker 1: Privatisation of prisons, what the hell is that about? You
[1:04:13] Speaker 1: set up a business and we can make money out
[1:04:16] Speaker 1: of keeping people in cages. That never washed with me. Look,
[1:04:20] Speaker 1: I think finishing up the points we're trying to get across,
[1:04:25] Speaker 1: as an ex-cop, you're someone that's done time in prison.
[1:04:30] Speaker 1: We're saying we could do it better. Yes, we could.
[1:04:32] Speaker 1: We could do it better. And let's think outside the
[1:04:34] Speaker 1: square a little bit because I do get frustrated with
[1:04:38] Speaker 1: these conversations in that It does seem simple. There are
[1:04:42] Speaker 1: solutions here, but we just keep going down. And if
[1:04:45] Speaker 1: we keep doing the same thing the same way, we're
[1:04:48] Speaker 1: going to get the same result. So let's flip it. Yeah.
[1:04:51] Speaker 2: And just as a final kind of thought from me
[1:04:53] Speaker 2: to anybody that really, you know, just goes, oh, them
[1:04:57] Speaker 2: people to prisoners. Imagine you're 20 years old, have a
[1:05:02] Speaker 2: couple of drinks, you get in the car and you
[1:05:04] Speaker 2: run someone over, right? You're 20. It's a mistake. It's
[1:05:09] Speaker 2: the worst time of your life. You get locked up.
[1:05:11] Speaker 2: You get taken out of society. And on your police check,
[1:05:15] Speaker 2: when you get out 15 years later and the world
[1:05:17] Speaker 2: has completely changed, it says murderer, murder. So the context
[1:05:24] Speaker 2: around what is on that police check is what is important.
[1:05:29] Speaker 2: It is so important that we understand the human being
[1:05:33] Speaker 2: and what led them to that. And there's some really
[1:05:36] Speaker 2: good things that, you know, we can, kind of judge
[1:05:39] Speaker 2: change on it's somebody that hasn't done any work doesn't
[1:05:43] Speaker 2: have a turnaround talk or a turnaround packet because all
[1:05:46] Speaker 2: they can do is talk about the offenses they have
[1:05:49] Speaker 2: nothing else to show and somebody that doesn't that has
[1:05:53] Speaker 2: repeatedly offended right yes they have but if they've got
[1:05:58] Speaker 2: time up and in that time they can show that
[1:06:01] Speaker 2: they've done so many different things isn't that what counts
[1:06:05] Speaker 2: isn't that what we should be judging people on because
[1:06:08] Speaker 2: When they come to get a job, and I'm taking
[1:06:11] Speaker 2: it back to employment, we're judging them on who they're
[1:06:14] Speaker 2: going to show up at, work as, right, what skills
[1:06:17] Speaker 2: they bring to the table, their resume, their experience, their
[1:06:22] Speaker 2: willingness to be open and communicate and all those kinds
[1:06:26] Speaker 2: of things. That's what we need too. That moment in time,
[1:06:31] Speaker 2: I wouldn't want to be judged on that. How would
[1:06:33] Speaker 2: you feel to be judged as a murderer for the
[1:06:36] Speaker 2: rest of your life by one mistake that you made?
[1:06:38] Speaker 2: Wouldn't you want people to give you a second chance
[1:06:41] Speaker 2: and a fair go?
[1:06:43] Speaker 1: Makes sense. Convince me. I'm sold.
[1:06:48] Speaker 2: I think you already were.
[1:06:50] Speaker 1: I'd never considered that until I got a criminal record. Now,
[1:06:53] Speaker 1: when I'm filling out forms, I'm going, oh, yeah, like
[1:06:56] Speaker 1: it is. And I think I know when I've had
[1:06:59] Speaker 1: to tick the box, I want to explain, but hold it, let's...
[1:07:03] Speaker 1: But you don't have that opportunity. You're just marked. Have
[1:07:06] Speaker 1: you been convicted of it?
[1:07:07] Speaker 2: And that's what we're trying to teach the general employment
[1:07:12] Speaker 2: community is please don't have that pre-screening. Allow people to
[1:07:17] Speaker 2: showcase who they are today. And the ones that don't
[1:07:19] Speaker 2: want to, they won't apply anyway. So that pre-screening is
[1:07:22] Speaker 2: really you are not allowing someone access to something that
[1:07:25] Speaker 2: they probably really need.
[1:07:27] Speaker 1: You seem very content, no regrets, and this is life's journey.
[1:07:34] Speaker 2: It is. And to being able to speak and use
[1:07:37] Speaker 2: my story and the twists and turns and the experiences
[1:07:41] Speaker 2: that I've had to create change in the world, how
[1:07:46] Speaker 2: privileged am I? That's amazing.
[1:07:48] Speaker 1: That's a very nice way to finish.
[1:07:51] Speaker 2: Thank you.
[1:07:52] Speaker 1: All the best for the future and keep up the
[1:07:55] Speaker 1: work because it makes society a better place. So good
[1:07:59] Speaker 1: on you.
[1:07:59] Speaker 2: Thank you. My pleasure. Thank you.
[1:08:01] Speaker 1: Thank you.

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