# 10 Days with no food, water or air: Glen McEwen Pt. 2

An episode of [I Catch Killers with Gary Jubelin](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1506667049), 26 Oct 2026, 1 h 03 min.

Audio: https://p.podderapp.com/2544644999/traffic.omny.fm/d/clips/2fb3740d-3436-44af-8cc0-a91900716aa5/5bc8c2ed-b718-4f44-beb3-ac2a005246cc/88cd4c90-935e-434a-9c3f-b4ec00266505/audio.mp3?utm_source=Podcast&in_playlist=786928c3-10c1-4cef-a7bf-ac2a005246d0

After Bali, Glen McEwen became the AFP's Asia Commander and found himself at the centre of the Thai cave rescue . Gary sits down with Glen to hear what it was really like inside that cave rescue, 10 days with no food or air, Australian divers in the water, the high-risk sedation plan to swim the boys out, the moment they thought they'd lost the first kid, and the Hollywood moment when the pumps failed with rescuers still inside. Glen also opens up on his deployment to Yemen interviewing Australians jailed for alleged gun-running, leading the covert investigation into corrupt officer Mark Standen while working alongside him, and the personal toll of 35 years policing that led to medical retirement and his ongoing recovery through therapy and EMDR. Find out more about Glen’s book Crime, Chaos and Controversy here: https://www.bigskypublishing.com.au/crime-chaos-and-controversy See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

## Transcript

[0:01] Speaker 1: The public has had a long-held fascination with detectives. Detectives
[0:05] Speaker 1: see a side of life the average person is never
[0:08] Speaker 1: exposed to. I spent 34 years as a cop. For
[0:12] Speaker 1: 25 of those years, I was catching killers. That's what
[0:14] Speaker 1: I did for a living. I was a homicide detective.
[0:17] Speaker 1: I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead, I'm taking
[0:21] Speaker 1: the public into the world in which I operated. The
[0:24] Speaker 1: guests I talk to each week have amazing stories from
[0:26] Speaker 1: all sides of the law. The interviews are raw and honest,
[0:29] Speaker 1: just like the people I talk to. Some of the
[0:31] Speaker 1: content and language might be confronting. That's because no one
[0:34] Speaker 1: who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged. Join
[0:38] Speaker 1: me now as I take you into this world. Welcome
[0:47] Speaker 1: back to my conversation with retired AFP officer Glenn McEwan.
[0:51] Speaker 1: where we go deeper into his career in international law enforcement,
[0:55] Speaker 1: corrupt officers tangled up in international drug smuggling, and the
[0:59] Speaker 1: delicate art of diplomacy he was forced to master whilst
[1:02] Speaker 1: working in China. We also discuss his role investigating the
[1:06] Speaker 1: 2019 terrorist attacks in Sri Lanka and the feel-good story
[1:11] Speaker 1: of the Thai cave rescue. Glenn also reveals what this
[1:15] Speaker 1: work has cost him and whether it was worth the price.
[1:18] Speaker 1: Take a listen. Glenn McEwan, welcome back to part two
[1:23] Speaker 1: of I Catch Killers.
[1:24] Speaker 2: Thanks, Gary.
[1:25] Speaker 1: Hey, I'm going to ask you one, and I know
[1:28] Speaker 1: the job mightn't have played out, but we've sent to
[1:31] Speaker 1: Yemen at one stage now.
[1:33] Speaker 2: Yeah.
[1:34] Speaker 1: Yemen's not the type of place you want to go
[1:37] Speaker 1: for work or a holiday. It's a pretty intense place.
[1:40] Speaker 1: There's a lot of warnings about traveling there. Absolutely. I think, yeah,
[1:45] Speaker 1: from no Australian embassy or diplomatic presence there whatsoever.
[1:49] Speaker 2: Whatsoever.
[1:50] Speaker 1: How did you find yourself in Yemen and what was
[1:53] Speaker 1: your role?
[1:55] Speaker 2: Well, I was working in the joint counterterrorism team in
[1:59] Speaker 2: Sydney and it was shortly, probably Not long after Operation Pendennis,
[2:05] Speaker 2: which was Australia's largest counterterrorism investigation.
[2:10] Speaker 1: Yeah, we've had people on talking about that here on
[2:12] Speaker 1: the podcast.
[2:14] Speaker 2: And there was three people locked up in Yemen for
[2:19] Speaker 2: alleged gun running between Yemen and Somalia. And two of
[2:23] Speaker 2: those guys were related to people who were of major
[2:31] Speaker 2: security concern to Australia.
[2:33] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[2:34] Speaker 2: Who were related to Jamar Islamiyah and al-Qaeda, actually the
[2:39] Speaker 2: parents of these two, the AU brothers.
[2:42] Speaker 1: Yeah, right.
[2:43] Speaker 2: And so command decided that we needed to find out
[2:50] Speaker 2: what they were up to. And by chance, the ambassador
[2:56] Speaker 2: representing Yemen, there was none here either, was visiting, I think,
[3:00] Speaker 2: from Singapore. And they made representation and got permission to
[3:04] Speaker 2: send a delegation to Yemen to interview these three Australians.
[3:11] Speaker 2: So myself, Daryl Abisaka from New South Wales.
[3:16] Speaker 1: New South Wales colleague.
[3:17] Speaker 2: And an ASIO colleague. Yeah. We traveled to Sana'a in
[3:22] Speaker 2: Yemen via Dubai. And we got picked up by– it
[3:28] Speaker 2: was out of the Jason Bourne movie. We got picked
[3:30] Speaker 2: up by– about six Suburbans with the FBI.
[3:34] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[3:35] Speaker 2: I felt like, though, I don't know if you've ever
[3:37] Speaker 2: saw the Gary Larson cartoon, you know, it was two moose.
[3:43] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[3:43] Speaker 2: And one had a bullseye painted on him and it said,
[3:46] Speaker 2: you know, bummer of a birth, Merv.
[3:49] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[3:49] Speaker 2: I felt like that.
[3:50] Speaker 1: Felt like that.
[3:51] Speaker 2: Yeah.
[3:52] Speaker 1: Standing out.
[3:52] Speaker 2: Standing out. Here we are in the middle of Terrorism
[3:56] Speaker 2: Central in 2006.
[3:57] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[3:57] Speaker 2: October of 2006. Looking like you look like that. just
[4:02] Speaker 2: wondering what the hell we're doing here. Uh, and then
[4:04] Speaker 2: we get whisked away straight to the U S embassy, um,
[4:07] Speaker 2: to get our security, uh, briefing, which was extremely encouraging. Um,
[4:14] Speaker 2: don't do anything. Uh, and, uh, yeah, yeah. So, uh,
[4:18] Speaker 2: and then we got transported back to the Sheridan hotel,
[4:20] Speaker 2: which was an experience in itself, which you would have read. Yeah. Um,
[4:24] Speaker 2: and then, yeah, we had to go and, uh, do
[4:27] Speaker 2: our thing, go and meet the, the good Colonel. And, um,
[4:31] Speaker 2: And head off to the prison.
[4:33] Speaker 1: What was the prison like?
[4:35] Speaker 2: Oh, do you remember that movie Midnight Express? Yeah. You know,
[4:39] Speaker 2: the Turkish prison? You know, very cold, just filled out
[4:43] Speaker 2: of rock. Yeah. Yeah.
[4:46] Speaker 1: Very much like that.
[4:47] Speaker 2: Very much like that. And we met the two AU
[4:51] Speaker 2: brothers and Samulski, who was the other Australian. We weren't
[4:55] Speaker 2: allowed to meet them individually. We only had an hour.
[4:58] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[4:59] Speaker 2: It was a long way to go for an hour. Mm-hmm. Uh,
[5:01] Speaker 2: and very impressive prison guards were in the room. So
[5:04] Speaker 2: you can imagine it wasn't an intimate conversation.
[5:06] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[5:07] Speaker 2: Uh, and, and typical of those sort of joint, um,
[5:11] Speaker 2: conversations you have amongst suspects. They have, they don't tell
[5:15] Speaker 2: you anything. They try to, you know, they purport to
[5:18] Speaker 2: tell you things, but they don't really tell you too much. So,
[5:21] Speaker 2: you know, it was one of those things that, uh,
[5:23] Speaker 2: they tell you a little bit, but you know, they
[5:25] Speaker 2: were caught in the wrong place at the wrong time. Um,
[5:28] Speaker 2: but the, the story that, basically was that they were
[5:33] Speaker 2: associating with people who were Al-Qaeda members and were gun
[5:39] Speaker 2: running between Yemen and Somalia.
[5:44] Speaker 1: That type of experience and like, yeah, we joke about
[5:48] Speaker 1: the risks and all that, but yeah, I don't know,
[5:51] Speaker 1: maybe I'm stupid. I assume you're stupid, but I put
[5:54] Speaker 1: my hand up for that straight away. like doing a
[5:58] Speaker 1: job like that. Like it's all experience that you think, okay.
[6:01] Speaker 2: I wasn't saying no.
[6:03] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[6:04] Speaker 2: You know, the excitement of going to Yemen. And I'm
[6:07] Speaker 2: pretty sure Daryl and I are the only Australian coppers
[6:10] Speaker 2: ever to have been to Yemen.
[6:12] Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, I don't know any that have managed to
[6:14] Speaker 1: find their way there.
[6:15] Speaker 2: And, you know, just an example, Gary, like these guys,
[6:19] Speaker 2: as in the Yemenis, they're on cart.
[6:22] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[6:23] Speaker 2: You know, that Chew. They'd chew, right? Yeah. They're against narcotics,
[6:27] Speaker 2: but naturally.
[6:28] Speaker 1: And that gives them a- The euphoria, right?
[6:30] Speaker 2: Yeah. And they've all got AK-47s. So as you're driving
[6:33] Speaker 2: through the streets of Sanaa in this very discreet convoy
[6:39] Speaker 2: of black suburbans, and they hate the Americans, so who
[6:42] Speaker 2: do you think's inside them? The Americans, which they're driving,
[6:46] Speaker 2: and they're just firing AK-47s in the air while they're
[6:49] Speaker 2: full of this euphoric mindset. I don't know where the
[6:54] Speaker 2: bloody bullets are dropping. You know, we know where the
[6:57] Speaker 2: casing's dropping just to the ground, but where are.
[6:59] Speaker 1: The bloody bullets.
[7:01] Speaker 2: Coming down on? Just an amazing experience.
[7:05] Speaker 1: But, well, I put it down as an experience, even
[7:07] Speaker 1: if you didn't get a lot of information, which is,
[7:10] Speaker 1: you know, you've got to try these things. But, yeah,
[7:14] Speaker 1: just another ticket up as an experience you can get
[7:17] Speaker 1: if you join the police.
[7:19] Speaker 2: Absolutely.
[7:20] Speaker 1: Speaking of joining the police, one former police officer that
[7:23] Speaker 1: I don't think we've got any high opinions of is
[7:27] Speaker 1: Mark Standen. And if you could just give us an
[7:31] Speaker 1: overview of that. Mark Standen's story, he was working for
[7:35] Speaker 1: the New South Wales Crime Commission. He had a history
[7:39] Speaker 1: in law enforcement, and he was caught involved in large-scale
[7:44] Speaker 1: drug importations. The thing about Mark Standen was that the
[7:48] Speaker 1: position of trust that he was in was such a
[7:51] Speaker 1: high position in terms of organised crime and drug importation.
[7:56] Speaker 1: And the fact that he was corrupt, I think it
[7:58] Speaker 1: leaves a bad taste in all of our mouths that
[8:01] Speaker 1: someone can get to that point. Your involvement in the investigation,
[8:06] Speaker 1: you came in looking at the investigation, but you, at
[8:10] Speaker 1: this stage, and tell me if I'm saying too much,
[8:13] Speaker 1: I think you had to covertly continue working with him
[8:17] Speaker 1: on the investigation, knowing or at least suspecting that he
[8:23] Speaker 1: might be a crooked cop.
[8:25] Speaker 2: Yeah, well, actually, we got to the stage where there
[8:28] Speaker 2: was an active investigation against him when I was sitting
[8:32] Speaker 2: opposite him during these meetings.
[8:33] Speaker 1: How did you feel, reaching over and throttling?
[8:37] Speaker 2: Yeah, totally.
[8:37] Speaker 1: Because just the bullshit that would have been coming out
[8:40] Speaker 1: of his mouth.
[8:41] Speaker 2: Well, it's like any sort of, covert approach to an investigation,
[8:45] Speaker 2: you've just got to hold your own, don't you?
[8:47] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[8:47] Speaker 2: As you well appreciate. Yeah, we were very much alive
[8:53] Speaker 2: to that fact, knowing that anything we were talking about
[8:56] Speaker 2: in these meetings, he was letting the underworld know what
[9:01] Speaker 2: was going on.
[9:01] Speaker 1: Yeah. That adds a complexity, a layer of complexity to
[9:05] Speaker 1: the investigation. What was the main investigation that you were
[9:09] Speaker 1: working on?
[9:10] Speaker 2: Well, initially it was... We were, we, the AFP were
[9:14] Speaker 2: being told by the Dutch and the UK that they
[9:20] Speaker 2: were concerned that there was a very high ranking Australian
[9:24] Speaker 2: law enforcement official that had been corrupted. And they had
[9:31] Speaker 2: well-placed source in both the UK and in Holland who
[9:37] Speaker 2: were feeding that information. So- The Assistant Commissioner at the time,
[9:41] Speaker 2: Tim Morris, went over to both the UK and Holland
[9:46] Speaker 2: to get a full briefing.
[9:48] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[9:48] Speaker 2: He made a commitment that it might not be an
[9:53] Speaker 2: AFP officer because they didn't fully understand the Australian policing
[9:57] Speaker 2: system and the jurisdiction, the constitution. the Australian setup. But
[10:03] Speaker 2: he did make a commitment that the AFP would look
[10:06] Speaker 2: into it because the UK and the Dutch said, look,
[10:09] Speaker 2: there's too many compromises. We won't work with you. So
[10:13] Speaker 2: it was a big deal. So in January 2007, this
[10:16] Speaker 2: was late 2006, the I was coming down to Canberra.
[10:23] Speaker 2: I'd finished my time in Sydney. And of all things,
[10:25] Speaker 2: I was going to be a superintendent of people smuggling.
[10:28] Speaker 2: I couldn't get rid of it. And I was coming down,
[10:32] Speaker 2: and I got a phone call from Tim to come
[10:35] Speaker 2: to the office. I was on leave, and I was
[10:38] Speaker 2: coming to start. I know that this was a Thursday
[10:40] Speaker 2: or something. I was going to start on a Monday.
[10:42] Speaker 2: And he basically called me in, and we had a chat.
[10:47] Speaker 2: And he gave me the circumstances.
[10:49] Speaker 1: Hmm.
[10:50] Speaker 2: And he said, what do you think? And we both
[10:54] Speaker 2: come to the conclusion that it could be Mark.
[10:57] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[10:57] Speaker 2: And he said, well, I want you to lead up
[11:00] Speaker 2: this team to investigate it. But it's not going to
[11:05] Speaker 2: be all bells and whistles. It's going to be a
[11:07] Speaker 2: very quiet approach.
[11:08] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[11:10] Speaker 2: Considering who it is, how are we going to do this?
[11:13] Speaker 2: And he said, well, the Dutch just so happened. Yeah.
[11:18] Speaker 2: To have a guy here in Australia who's on a
[11:20] Speaker 2: tourist visa who might be able to help us out
[11:22] Speaker 2: on a couple of things, particularly his relationship with a
[11:25] Speaker 2: guy called James Henry Kinch. Okay. There's a start point.
[11:31] Speaker 2: So that's what I did. I went and debrief with
[11:34] Speaker 2: two Dutch coppers.
[11:35] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[11:35] Speaker 2: Who this guy absolutely hated. Yeah. And he gave me
[11:40] Speaker 2: a thumbnail sketch about this guy, James Henry Kinch. And-
[11:46] Speaker 2: From there, I did some, you know, backtracking and worked
[11:51] Speaker 2: out that Mark and this Kinch did have a relationship
[11:54] Speaker 2: back in 2003.
[11:56] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[11:57] Speaker 2: 2002 into 2003.
[11:58] Speaker 1: Right.
[11:59] Speaker 2: And since I couldn't do all bells and whistles and
[12:03] Speaker 2: Kinch had seemed to be very well connected with a
[12:08] Speaker 2: Dutch group called the Breda Group, which appeared to be
[12:11] Speaker 2: at the time the largest transporter of Ecstasy across the world. Yep.
[12:18] Speaker 2: Into the US and Australia, headed by Ron Hucklunder and
[12:24] Speaker 2: Peter Decker. Yeah. And this source, codename Swampy, happened to
[12:30] Speaker 2: work with these guys previously. Right. And he worked with
[12:36] Speaker 2: Kinch and for Hucklunder and Decker. So that was our
[12:40] Speaker 2: start point, and it appeared in my research that Standen
[12:47] Speaker 2: and Kinch came together in 2003 when the Crime Commission
[12:50] Speaker 2: had locked up Kinch.
[12:51] Speaker 1: Right.
[12:52] Speaker 2: And he flipped when he was caught with constructive possession
[12:58] Speaker 2: of 150 grams of drugs, ecstasy. And he flipped. Flipped.
[13:04] Speaker 2: For Standen. And gave up kilos, hundreds of thousands of
[13:07] Speaker 2: dollars here, there and everywhere. And then started working for Standen.
[13:11] Speaker 1: Right.
[13:12] Speaker 2: Now, to the point where Standen became this- crusader of
[13:17] Speaker 2: advocacy for Kinch and made representation to the DPP, lied
[13:22] Speaker 2: to the DPP, tried to get his charges quashed.
[13:25] Speaker 1: Because he had him registered as a, when you say flip,
[13:29] Speaker 1: like a criminal informant and.
[13:30] Speaker 2: Was saying- Codename Hogan.
[13:31] Speaker 1: Yeah. And he's benefiting the investigation and we should give
[13:36] Speaker 1: him leniency for the crimes he's committed.
[13:40] Speaker 2: And at that time, it was my belief that the
[13:42] Speaker 2: Crime Commission wanted to go global with their work. And
[13:46] Speaker 2: Kinch was their conveyance for that, being the global drug trafficker. Now,
[13:52] Speaker 2: my saying has always been that Standen needed one Kinch,
[13:55] Speaker 2: but Kinch needed 100 Standens to do what he did.
[13:58] Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a good way of looking at it. Yeah.
[14:01] Speaker 2: So I always saw Kinch as a bigger fish than Standen.
[14:04] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[14:04] Speaker 2: And that's what ended up happening. I started investigating Kinch
[14:09] Speaker 2: and all the work that previous jobs, New South Wales
[14:12] Speaker 2: Crime Commission jobs, AFP jobs- And connected Kinch to that.
[14:17] Speaker 1: Right.
[14:17] Speaker 2: And it ended up building a brief of 1.5 ton
[14:20] Speaker 2: of Ecstasy that was imported into Australia in 2002 that
[14:25] Speaker 2: Kinch was directly connected with. Yeah. During this time, by chance,
[14:33] Speaker 2: we'd done a whole lot of CCR call chart records
[14:36] Speaker 2: on Standen because initially we were looking at Standen and
[14:41] Speaker 2: initially I was tasked with looking at all of sort
[14:45] Speaker 2: of AFP.
[14:47] Speaker 1: So I'm just getting a sense of it. They've put you,
[14:50] Speaker 1: what your undercover, or your undercover cover story is you're
[14:56] Speaker 1: investigating the drug importation.
[14:59] Speaker 2: Well, actually, undercover story, it was a waterfront inquiry.
[15:03] Speaker 1: Right. And that's brought you into the investigation. And so
[15:07] Speaker 1: while you're looking at the criminal activities of Kinch and
[15:11] Speaker 1: everyone else, you're also looking at standards.
[15:14] Speaker 2: But what had happened there was we were just looking
[15:18] Speaker 2: on the periphery of Standard, but we were looking at Kinch.
[15:20] Speaker 2: But very early on, whilst we were looking at the
[15:24] Speaker 2: CCRs for Standard, I got a phone call from my
[15:28] Speaker 2: old analyst here in Sydney, Maria Drennan. And because our
[15:32] Speaker 2: job was locked down under this operation status, under this
[15:35] Speaker 2: waterfront inquiry, no one else could see it. And she said, look,
[15:40] Speaker 2: We just got this phone number through another operation known
[15:44] Speaker 2: as Operation Lacerda, which was looking at two Northern Beaches traffickers.
[15:50] Speaker 2: And could you just run that number for me and
[15:53] Speaker 2: just let me know? So I ran the number and
[15:56] Speaker 2: it was, ended up being Bill Gelilati. Yeah, yeah. Who
[15:59] Speaker 2: was Standen's, in the end, Standen's co-conspirator. Right, right. So,
[16:04] Speaker 2: and then when we looked further, we matched up the
[16:08] Speaker 2: Kinch and Jalalati and standing. And I was saying, well,
[16:13] Speaker 2: when we were wondering who this Jalalati was, I'm going, well,
[16:15] Speaker 2: it's not, it's not a girlfriend or a boyfriend or,
[16:19] Speaker 2: and it's, it's not a business around. This is, this
[16:22] Speaker 2: is something criminal.
[16:24] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[16:25] Speaker 2: Um, and so a parallel investigation started, which had all
[16:29] Speaker 2: the bells and whistles. Right. I didn't have the bells
[16:31] Speaker 2: and whistles, but the Sydney office ended up, which was
[16:34] Speaker 2: Operation Octance.
[16:35] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[16:36] Speaker 2: So they ended up doing that. And I quietly, Did
[16:39] Speaker 2: my side, but I was across their job, but they
[16:41] Speaker 2: weren't across mine. Okay. And I was working under the
[16:46] Speaker 2: impression that I will get Kinch for the 1.5 and
[16:51] Speaker 2: be able to flip him on Mark, but nothing went
[16:56] Speaker 2: to plan on any of my assumptions.
[16:58] Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. Well, yeah, it was an interesting investigation for you,
[17:04] Speaker 1: but also distasteful. If you're working on a corrupt cop,
[17:09] Speaker 1: I can't imagine what it would have been like sitting
[17:12] Speaker 1: opposite him knowing the shit, or at least suspecting or
[17:17] Speaker 1: reasonably certain what he's up to and watching the bullshit
[17:20] Speaker 1: come out of his mouth and painting himself as, you know,
[17:24] Speaker 1: The white knight trying to stop all this drug importation.
[17:28] Speaker 2: And the guy was brewing it the way he betrayed
[17:33] Speaker 2: himself to the point where on Mondays, I think it
[17:37] Speaker 2: was every second Monday, he'd bring all the local or
[17:41] Speaker 2: New South Wales high-end criminal investigation teams together, be it AFP, Customs, gangs,
[17:50] Speaker 2: Australian Crime Commission back then. you know, all together, organised crime.
[17:57] Speaker 2: And we'd all sit there under the guise of deconfliction. Yeah.
[18:03] Speaker 2: Even though we were aware of it, so we had
[18:05] Speaker 2: to be reasonably guarded.
[18:06] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[18:07] Speaker 2: And we couldn't let the cat out of the bag
[18:10] Speaker 2: and everyone else was just throwing it out there and
[18:12] Speaker 2: he's just been the sponge.
[18:15] Speaker 1: I've worked with the Crime Commission at various stages of
[18:19] Speaker 1: my career on different investigations and What can you say?
[18:23] Speaker 1: It's a different experience.
[18:26] Speaker 2: Yes.
[18:27] Speaker 1: Now, I'm going to take you into the Thai cave
[18:30] Speaker 1: rescue because this is another aspect of policing. You've seen
[18:34] Speaker 1: it where you're trying to chase the bad guys, terrorism,
[18:38] Speaker 1: trying to prevent people being killed. We're now looking at
[18:43] Speaker 1: a situation where you're trying to save lives. Can you
[18:46] Speaker 1: tell us why you were involved in it, what you
[18:49] Speaker 1: were doing at the time and what happened.
[18:51] Speaker 2: So I was Commander Asia at the time, so based
[18:54] Speaker 2: in Beijing and Thailand was part of my command. So
[18:58] Speaker 2: when the boys went missing, so they'd gone into the cave.
[19:05] Speaker 2: So Tom Long Cave is near the Myanmar-Thai border up
[19:09] Speaker 2: there in Chiang Rai. And traditionally with the wild boar
[19:14] Speaker 2: soccer team, When one of the players turns 16, they
[19:19] Speaker 2: go and sign their name in Chamber 3, which is
[19:23] Speaker 2: a little bit into the cave. The cave system itself
[19:26] Speaker 2: is 10 kilometers long.
[19:27] Speaker 1: Right.
[19:28] Speaker 2: But they went into Chamber 3, which is known as
[19:31] Speaker 2: Pattaya Beach, and signed their name. So they rode their
[19:34] Speaker 2: bikes down and the assistant coach went with them and
[19:37] Speaker 2: the monsoon rains came two weeks early and came with
[19:40] Speaker 2: such intensity that The rains came through the entrance way
[19:47] Speaker 2: and pushed the boys further into the cave. They couldn't
[19:51] Speaker 2: go out of the cave because the heavy rains were
[19:53] Speaker 2: moving in so far. So they were, they were lost pretty,
[19:58] Speaker 2: pretty quickly and they were pushed, they were found 1.2
[20:02] Speaker 2: kilometers into the cave, into chamber nine.
[20:04] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[20:05] Speaker 2: Where we became involved is once the villagers and their
[20:09] Speaker 2: parents obviously raised the alarm. The Thai Navy SEALs were
[20:16] Speaker 2: brought into the equation very early. They made a call
[20:21] Speaker 2: into the embassy asking the Australian Federal Police, what swift
[20:25] Speaker 2: water and close quarter diving capability did we have? That
[20:28] Speaker 2: call came directly to me as the commander. I then
[20:31] Speaker 2: made a call to the commander of our specialist response group,
[20:35] Speaker 2: and they said, yep, we've got that. We had six divers. Okay.
[20:40] Speaker 2: We then pushed that up to the deputy. That goes
[20:43] Speaker 2: to the whole of government. It goes to government and
[20:46] Speaker 2: they had independent, what do they call it? Interdepartmental committee. Yeah.
[20:51] Speaker 2: They got to sit down and have a chat about it.
[20:53] Speaker 2: And then that was on a Friday and on Saturday
[20:57] Speaker 2: they're on a Herc off.
[21:00] Speaker 1: Okay.
[21:00] Speaker 2: Okay. So that was the search component and what they
[21:04] Speaker 2: were required to do The two English divers who mapped
[21:08] Speaker 2: out this cave some 15 years before, they needed assistance
[21:13] Speaker 2: to have air cylinders and water pipes pushed through the
[21:19] Speaker 2: cave to allow them to penetrate the cave further and
[21:23] Speaker 2: try to get rid of this water that kept still
[21:27] Speaker 2: going in. So my team was there doing that in
[21:32] Speaker 2: the first instance. Yeah. The- Americans had sent, as they do, Durga, Durga, Durga.
[21:39] Speaker 2: They sent 100 down from Okinawa. Yeah. But they hadn't
[21:45] Speaker 2: had their rules of engagement finalized at that point. They
[21:48] Speaker 2: didn't know if they were allowed in the cave or not.
[21:50] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[21:51] Speaker 2: And a Chinese private dive group. So there was Thais, Australians, US,
[21:56] Speaker 2: and China.
[21:57] Speaker 1: Yep.
[21:58] Speaker 2: So amongst them all, America being left out at the moment,
[22:01] Speaker 2: they were moving in. I estimate about 20 tonnes of
[22:05] Speaker 2: equipment over this period of time, be it tanks and
[22:09] Speaker 2: water pipes, whilst the English divers were laying guide rope
[22:15] Speaker 2: as they were moving through the caving system.
[22:18] Speaker 1: So to get the picture of it, like you said
[22:22] Speaker 1: the boys, Chamber 3 was 1.2 kilometres in.
[22:24] Speaker 2: No, no, Chamber 9, where they were found.
[22:27] Speaker 1: Chamber 9, how far into the cave from the entrance
[22:30] Speaker 1: was that?
[22:31] Speaker 2: To Chamber 9? Yeah. 1.2.
[22:33] Speaker 1: 1.2. So they started off in Chamber 3 but got
[22:37] Speaker 1: washed further down. So these caves have flooded. You've got
[22:41] Speaker 1: this group of experts or with the skill set required
[22:45] Speaker 1: that's come over there, but they were putting tanks all
[22:47] Speaker 1: through the caves and water pipes to try and pump
[22:52] Speaker 1: water out. And then you've got the two English experts
[22:55] Speaker 1: that are coming over there and the rest of them
[22:58] Speaker 1: are basically supporting the their knowledge of the caves because
[23:01] Speaker 1: they've already mapped the caves.
[23:03] Speaker 2: Is that what we're working on?
[23:04] Speaker 1: That's correct.
[23:04] Speaker 2: And my understanding, the cave system itself is very difficult
[23:09] Speaker 2: terrain to walk through with the twists and turns and
[23:13] Speaker 2: everything else, let alone swim through. So, yeah, so it
[23:18] Speaker 2: was very important to allow the deeper penetration, having that
[23:21] Speaker 2: logistics moving forward. Otherwise, they were just going to be
[23:26] Speaker 2: wasting energy and not being able to move further forward.
[23:29] Speaker 1: I would imagine pitch black in there.
[23:31] Speaker 2: Pitch black. The water was running, freezing. And that's where, unfortunately,
[23:38] Speaker 2: they lost Petty Officer Gunan, one of the volunteers out
[23:42] Speaker 2: of the airport. He was an ex-Navy SEAL. He lost
[23:46] Speaker 2: his guide rope and got lost in the churn.
[23:50] Speaker 1: How long before they actually found the boys? Because it
[23:52] Speaker 1: might have been not a recovery. It might have been
[23:55] Speaker 1: just to find the deceased.
[23:57] Speaker 2: So every time, it was 10 days. So every time
[24:00] Speaker 2: the divers were entering these flooded caverns, they expected to find,
[24:05] Speaker 2: you know, something. Yeah. And they were expecting death. But
[24:09] Speaker 2: then they popped themselves up in Chamber 9. Yeah. So
[24:13] Speaker 2: 10 days and they had, you know, 26 or 13
[24:17] Speaker 2: sets of eyes looking at them. Yeah, yeah. But these kids,
[24:22] Speaker 2: and even the 25-year-old are kids.
[24:23] Speaker 1: And they're back for 10 days, I imagine, haven't got food.
[24:27] Speaker 2: No food, no water, no fresh air, no sanitation.
[24:30] Speaker 1: And just sitting in an air pocket.
[24:32] Speaker 2: In an air pocket, waiting for that. Is that water
[24:35] Speaker 2: going to come over the lip?
[24:37] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[24:38] Speaker 2: If they could see the lip.
[24:40] Speaker 1: And the ages of the kids?
[24:41] Speaker 2: 11 to 16 and 25 is the assistant commissioner. Right,
[24:45] Speaker 2: 10 days.
[24:46] Speaker 1: Okay, so we've found them. So that message would have
[24:52] Speaker 1: been passed back out.
[24:53] Speaker 2: So that becomes now a rescue. I'm in Brisbane with
[24:56] Speaker 2: a Chinese delegation. I then fly in to the site. Yep.
[25:01] Speaker 2: At that point in time, they've identified Dr. Richard Harris. Yep.
[25:05] Speaker 2: Because the call's gone out by the two English divers
[25:08] Speaker 2: that now we need some really strong expertise and Dr. Harris,
[25:13] Speaker 2: who's a doctor and a, I hate this word, anesthetist.
[25:19] Speaker 1: I was going, I know what he was, but I
[25:21] Speaker 1: was waiting for you to say it because I don't
[25:23] Speaker 1: want to- You don't want to say it either. I
[25:25] Speaker 1: don't want to say it, but he's got a special
[25:27] Speaker 1: skill set.
[25:28] Speaker 2: He has a very special skill set.
[25:30] Speaker 1: I'm going to make you say that word.
[25:32] Speaker 2: And his mate, Craig Challen, who's a veterinarian, I can
[25:35] Speaker 2: say that one. So they arrived. I arrived in the
[25:39] Speaker 2: morning of that Saturday and they arrived on the- on
[25:43] Speaker 2: that afternoon.
[25:44] Speaker 1: So now the focus is to recover the kids. And
[25:47] Speaker 1: it's not a case of, oh, guys, this way.
[25:50] Speaker 2: Yeah.
[25:50] Speaker 1: Because how long does it take to get from the
[25:52] Speaker 1: entrance to Chamber Nine?
[25:55] Speaker 2: So when Harry and Craig first went in with the
[26:01] Speaker 2: two English divers, if I remember rightly, it was five
[26:06] Speaker 2: hours in. He spent 38 minutes with Harry. With the kids.
[26:12] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[26:13] Speaker 2: And then five hours back out at that point. So
[26:15] Speaker 2: it's a- It got a little bit quicker when they,
[26:18] Speaker 2: but at that first time, yeah, it was something like that.
[26:21] Speaker 1: And the time because it's narrow.
[26:23] Speaker 2: Yeah. Twist turns and walking, swimming.
[26:27] Speaker 1: So your role, you flew over there once the kids
[26:32] Speaker 1: had been- Located.
[26:33] Speaker 2: Yeah.
[26:34] Speaker 1: And that was 10 days into it.
[26:36] Speaker 2: Yeah.
[26:36] Speaker 1: Describe the scene that you met when you arrived there
[26:39] Speaker 1: and what was your specific role? Were you coordinating the responses?
[26:45] Speaker 2: I sat in the command area with the Thai.
[26:48] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[26:49] Speaker 2: I had a major with me who was a translator.
[26:53] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[26:54] Speaker 2: So we weren't there all the time. We would just
[26:57] Speaker 2: come in. We'd have a chat with Harry.
[27:00] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[27:01] Speaker 2: Um, Harry would, uh, go away and come back.
[27:05] Speaker 1: He had a lot of pressure on him.
[27:06] Speaker 2: He had a lot of pressure on him, mate. You know,
[27:08] Speaker 2: he and I had a conversation, uh, where he actually
[27:12] Speaker 2: bared his soul when he came up with the idea.
[27:15] Speaker 2: Cause there was a number of scenarios that were placed
[27:18] Speaker 2: before the sort of the senior guys, the leaders.
[27:22] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[27:23] Speaker 2: Like initially earlier on, they were talking about going from
[27:27] Speaker 2: the top.
[27:28] Speaker 1: Drilling.
[27:28] Speaker 2: Drilling. Yeah. But it was 800 meters. Of granite. And
[27:33] Speaker 2: they didn't have the equipment to identify where the actual
[27:37] Speaker 2: kids were. It was a needle in a haystack.
[27:39] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[27:41] Speaker 2: And then basically the only two options left on the
[27:44] Speaker 2: table were the feasible options, were leaving them there until
[27:47] Speaker 2: the monsoon season finished and walk them out and just
[27:50] Speaker 2: keep feeding them.
[27:52] Speaker 1: Well, I suppose you've got to look at all the options.
[27:54] Speaker 2: This was June into July, and that was November.
[27:57] Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah.
[27:58] Speaker 2: Or what Harry came up. Up with, which was sedation. Yeah, yeah. Now,
[28:05] Speaker 2: that was a very, that was high risk.
[28:08] Speaker 1: And the reason to sedate the kids was the kids
[28:12] Speaker 1: had obviously, or one would assume they're not experienced divers.
[28:16] Speaker 2: Correct.
[28:16] Speaker 1: And it's the most difficult dive situation you could find
[28:20] Speaker 1: yourself at. That if- someone went down and just put
[28:24] Speaker 1: a mask on the kid and say, just follow me,
[28:26] Speaker 1: they would have panicked? Was that the rationale behind it?
[28:28] Speaker 2: The experience of these guys is exactly that, Gary. It
[28:31] Speaker 2: was about sedating them because the greatest risk of this
[28:37] Speaker 2: is the kids panicking, which is a risk to themselves
[28:42] Speaker 2: and also to the diver. Therefore, it was about sedation
[28:47] Speaker 2: and then restraint. So there was an oral sedative given
[28:52] Speaker 2: to the kid.
[28:53] Speaker 1: Yep.
[28:54] Speaker 2: They drop them into the water, place the mask on them.
[28:57] Speaker 1: Yep.
[28:58] Speaker 2: Drop them under.
[29:00] Speaker 1: Yep.
[29:00] Speaker 2: Then give them a whack of ketamine.
[29:03] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[29:05] Speaker 2: And once they fell unconscious, restrain them with their hands
[29:09] Speaker 2: behind their back. Wow. Then the diver was given two
[29:16] Speaker 2: more sedatives in case the patient was waking up during
[29:23] Speaker 2: the transportation. Yep. Now, bearing in mind, it's not all underwater,
[29:27] Speaker 2: it was still had to carry. So there was a
[29:30] Speaker 2: number of different dynamics through that from chamber nine to
[29:34] Speaker 2: chamber three, where the Americans were, when they were allowed
[29:37] Speaker 2: to go, when it was all sorted.
[29:41] Speaker 1: So you're dragging the kid through the water, through a
[29:44] Speaker 1: tunnel and a very tight tunnel in some spots.
[29:47] Speaker 2: Yeah, twist turns.
[29:48] Speaker 1: In other parts, you're coming up and lifting him over
[29:51] Speaker 1: rocks and going through a cave without the water and
[29:53] Speaker 1: then back into the water, that type of thing.
[29:56] Speaker 2: Wow.
[29:57] Speaker 1: Whilst they, for all intents and purposes, are unconscious.
[30:00] Speaker 2: Yes.
[30:01] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[30:01] Speaker 2: So dead weight. Yeah. And then the idea, well, what
[30:06] Speaker 2: happened was in Chamber 3 is where the Americans were. Yep.
[30:10] Speaker 2: Where they would be awakened with the medical team. Chamber
[30:13] Speaker 2: 2 was where the Australians and the Chinese were. Yep.
[30:17] Speaker 2: And Chamber 1 is where the Thais were. Right. And
[30:20] Speaker 2: the agreement across the board was the Thais were going
[30:23] Speaker 2: to walk them out because it was a Thai operation. Yeah.
[30:26] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[30:26] Speaker 2: Not everyone needed to know what was happening amongst here. Now,
[30:30] Speaker 2: my guys had constructed a flying fox.
[30:34] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[30:34] Speaker 2: So instead of walking them through the rocks and the
[30:40] Speaker 2: twists and turns of chamber two to chamber one, they
[30:43] Speaker 2: just whizzed them across, which is fantastic. Yeah. They did
[30:47] Speaker 2: very well there. The interesting thing about the first passenger,
[30:52] Speaker 2: patient I should say, was the With Jason, who was moving,
[30:56] Speaker 2: a European diver who was moving, transporting the first patient.
[30:59] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[31:00] Speaker 2: He started to awake. So he didn't belt him once
[31:04] Speaker 2: with the extra. He belted him twice. Right. So when
[31:07] Speaker 2: he arrived in chamber three, we thought we'd lost our
[31:10] Speaker 2: first one, which was going to throw all the planning
[31:12] Speaker 2: out the door. Because Harry was already concerned if we
[31:15] Speaker 2: lost one, that was it.
[31:16] Speaker 1: And what was that? Again, it came out in your book,
[31:20] Speaker 1: but he was– Because it was his plan, so he
[31:23] Speaker 1: was bearing the responsibility if it didn't work. And if
[31:26] Speaker 1: we lost the first one, well, that's it.
[31:29] Speaker 2: I'm not. We're just going to.
[31:30] Speaker 1: I can't help you here.
[31:31] Speaker 2: No. He couldn't live with it. Yeah. So he had to.
[31:34] Speaker 2: He was just like, well, we're going to have to
[31:35] Speaker 2: come up with something else. But he backed himself in
[31:38] Speaker 2: the end. Because even though we thought we'd lost, we
[31:43] Speaker 2: found out that it was just overly medicated, right? So
[31:46] Speaker 2: the first patient, bang. So that was supposed to be
[31:50] Speaker 2: the end of the first day. So when the first
[31:54] Speaker 2: one was coming out, then all of a sudden we heard,
[31:57] Speaker 2: number two's here. That's where Harry backed himself.
[32:00] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[32:01] Speaker 2: And then number three, and then number four, and that
[32:03] Speaker 2: was the first day done. Okay. So four came out
[32:06] Speaker 2: for day one, four came out day two, and then
[32:08] Speaker 2: five came out day three. Wow.
[32:10] Speaker 1: What a story.
[32:11] Speaker 2: What was.
[32:12] Speaker 1: What was the atmosphere where the first one came out
[32:15] Speaker 1: and then everyone came out? And we say that with
[32:19] Speaker 1: the greatest respect to the Thai diver that lost his life.
[32:23] Speaker 1: But getting all the kids back, if you had to
[32:26] Speaker 1: sign off on that, you would have gone, yeah.
[32:28] Speaker 2: Yeah, no. Well, we just witnessed the greatest rescue that
[32:34] Speaker 2: the world had seen. I don't want to take that
[32:38] Speaker 2: away from any other rescues, but Knowing what I've known
[32:40] Speaker 2: in relation to the intricacies that were involved in this,
[32:43] Speaker 2: absolutely amazing. But then there was a Hollywood moment. Yeah.
[32:48] Speaker 2: When the pumps failed and we still had people on station.
[32:53] Speaker 1: Oh, what happened there?
[32:54] Speaker 2: Because the kids were out.
[32:56] Speaker 1: Because you were pumping vines.
[32:58] Speaker 2: 50,000 litres or something, you know, like an hour or something,
[33:04] Speaker 2: and they were flooding all the rice fields. Yeah. You know,
[33:06] Speaker 2: taking these villagers away. you know, life away, you know,
[33:12] Speaker 2: the rice paddy fields. And there were four Navy divers
[33:16] Speaker 2: that stayed with the kids for the whole 10 days.
[33:18] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[33:18] Speaker 2: And they had to make their own way out because
[33:20] Speaker 2: all the other divers had taken themselves out or taken
[33:23] Speaker 2: the kids out and taken themselves out. So there was
[33:26] Speaker 2: still four left. And then they were making their way
[33:31] Speaker 2: out and we all agreed that everyone was going to
[33:33] Speaker 2: stay on station. Until the last person. Yeah, until everyone
[33:37] Speaker 2: comes out. And then- Water pump one goes. Water pump
[33:42] Speaker 2: two goes. As the four were just making their way out,
[33:49] Speaker 2: and then everyone, well, not everyone, my understanding, there was
[33:52] Speaker 2: some that panicked, started panicking because they just wanted to
[33:55] Speaker 2: get out. And there was only one way out, apart
[33:58] Speaker 2: from that flying fox, out from chamber two to chamber one.
[34:02] Speaker 2: And people was jumping over, you know, Just being desperate
[34:07] Speaker 2: to get out of there. But that was the Hollywood moment.
[34:09] Speaker 2: But everyone got out safely.
[34:10] Speaker 1: Right.
[34:11] Speaker 2: But, you know, a bit of a twist and turn.
[34:14] Speaker 1: Extraordinary story too. And, yeah, I suppose you've seen a
[34:19] Speaker 1: lot of bad things in your policing career or in life.
[34:23] Speaker 1: But seeing something like that, everyone coming together.
[34:26] Speaker 2: It actually reinstilled good faith in people.
[34:30] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[34:32] Speaker 2: You know, seeing what people can actually do. you know,
[34:35] Speaker 2: with a common purpose of good. Yes. It was, you know, really,
[34:40] Speaker 2: really fantastic to see.
[34:42] Speaker 1: And people go above and beyond.
[34:44] Speaker 2: Above and beyond, absolutely. Yeah, yeah. But unfortunately, just a
[34:49] Speaker 2: couple of years ago, there is a sad ending to this,
[34:53] Speaker 2: and I'm hoping there is not any further sad endings,
[34:57] Speaker 2: but it just demonstrates that trauma lives on, is the
[35:01] Speaker 2: captain of the– The wild boar died of suicide a
[35:05] Speaker 2: couple of years ago whilst he was undertaking his soccer
[35:09] Speaker 2: scholarship in England. Yeah.
[35:11] Speaker 1: Well, you wonder how much a situation like that or
[35:15] Speaker 1: an experience like that would carry. It must have been
[35:18] Speaker 1: terrifying for him.
[35:19] Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely.
[35:20] Speaker 1: And to be stuck down there for that long.
[35:23] Speaker 2: Yeah.
[35:25] Speaker 1: Let's take you to China. How did you find yourself
[35:28] Speaker 1: in China? And I got the sense that was a very–
[35:33] Speaker 1: diplomacy became your weapon in China as much as your
[35:37] Speaker 1: policing skills.
[35:38] Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, no, China was fantastic. It was the best
[35:43] Speaker 2: post I had. Yeah.
[35:44] Speaker 1: How long were you over there for?
[35:46] Speaker 2: Just over three years.
[35:47] Speaker 1: Yeah. Yep. And what was your title there?
[35:49] Speaker 2: Commander Asia.
[35:50] Speaker 1: Yeah. Okay.
[35:51] Speaker 2: Yeah.
[35:51] Speaker 1: So– Based at Beijing.
[35:53] Speaker 2: At the embassy.
[35:54] Speaker 1: Yep. Yep.
[35:55] Speaker 2: Yeah. Lived off embassy, but yeah.
[35:57] Speaker 1: Okay.
[35:58] Speaker 2: But I only spent about probably 40, 35 to 40%
[36:00] Speaker 2: of my time in Beijing because my remit was so vast.
[36:05] Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. Tell us about your experience there.
[36:10] Speaker 2: Well, we left New Year's Day of 2017, left Sunshine Coast,
[36:13] Speaker 2: 35 degrees and not a cloud in the sky. Um,
[36:22] Speaker 2: by the time we arrived in Beijing, it was the
[36:24] Speaker 2: 2nd of January, 2017. It was minus 11.
[36:27] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[36:28] Speaker 2: Um, couldn't see due to the pollution a meter in
[36:33] Speaker 2: front of us. Uh, could taste the pollution.
[36:36] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[36:37] Speaker 2: Uh, the traffic was out of control and Chrissy, my wife,
[36:42] Speaker 2: turned to me and said, what have we done?
[36:45] Speaker 1: So your, your wife came with you on this post? Yeah.
[36:47] Speaker 2: It was a, yeah, a company post. Yeah. Uh, what
[36:50] Speaker 2: have you done? And yeah, but that was the start
[36:54] Speaker 2: of it. But, you know, a big place, 1,400 million people.
[36:59] Speaker 2: I don't use the term billion because you lose the context.
[37:04] Speaker 2: So 1,400 million people. Beijing is the size, the population
[37:08] Speaker 2: of Australia, just in the city.
[37:11] Speaker 1: I've spent time in Shanghai and it just blows you away,
[37:14] Speaker 1: doesn't it?
[37:15] Speaker 2: It does. And Beijing's totally different to Shanghai, see? Shanghai
[37:19] Speaker 2: is all beautiful and vibrant.
[37:21] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[37:21] Speaker 2: And Beijing is just dull because that's the think tank
[37:26] Speaker 2: of China where Shanghai is all about fun and financials.
[37:31] Speaker 1: What sort of accommodation were you put up in?
[37:35] Speaker 2: I was very fortunate. We had two apartments opposite each other.
[37:42] Speaker 2: So we had a three-bedroom apartment and a two-bedroom apartment. Luxury. Luxury.
[37:47] Speaker 1: What are you complaining about?
[37:48] Speaker 2: Oh, absolutely. I wasn't complaining about it when I was there. No,
[37:51] Speaker 2: we were very fortunate from an accommodation point of view.
[37:54] Speaker 2: But yeah, no, China, fantastic. My perspective of China, it's not,
[38:01] Speaker 2: in my view, not the big bad bear that's in
[38:04] Speaker 2: the room that the Australian mainstream media portray. There are
[38:10] Speaker 2: reasons for why they do what they do. Yep. Um, I,
[38:15] Speaker 2: I spent a month in university there prior to my deployment. Yeah.
[38:20] Speaker 2: So I studied their political system and I studied more importantly,
[38:24] Speaker 2: their judicial and legislative framework. So I understand their legislation. Um,
[38:30] Speaker 2: So where they talk about things like their conviction rates
[38:33] Speaker 2: and stuff, there's things behind that.
[38:35] Speaker 1: Yeah, you enlightened me there because I would always joke
[38:39] Speaker 1: if someone's going to trial in China, well, 100% conviction
[38:42] Speaker 1: rate and you broke it down. Do you want to
[38:45] Speaker 1: just explain your take on that?
[38:48] Speaker 2: Well, it's like what we have. There's certain thresholds that
[38:51] Speaker 2: are met. There's about value, public value. There's All the
[38:59] Speaker 2: sort of baseline measures that we do, they're not going
[39:02] Speaker 2: to take a matter to court that's a waste of
[39:04] Speaker 2: public money. They're not going to take a matter of
[39:06] Speaker 2: court that there's little chance of conviction. Like KPIs, the
[39:13] Speaker 2: Directors of Public Prosecution.
[39:14] Speaker 1: So it might perhaps more thorough in the expectation of
[39:20] Speaker 1: they've got to get across certain barriers before it gets
[39:22] Speaker 1: to trial. So hence a high conviction rate. when it
[39:26] Speaker 1: gets to trial.
[39:27] Speaker 2: So there are matters that don't see the light of day.
[39:29] Speaker 2: There are matters that get to a point and they're discontinued.
[39:33] Speaker 2: Very similar to us. And there are control measures, but
[39:38] Speaker 2: there are 1,400 million people.
[39:40] Speaker 1: That's hard to comprehend.
[39:42] Speaker 2: In a very similar geographical landscape of Australia, which means
[39:48] Speaker 2: The eastern seaboard is flooded with people, the west side
[39:50] Speaker 2: not so much, and there's desert in the middle. Yeah, yeah. So,
[39:55] Speaker 2: you know, like anything, I take things on face value
[39:58] Speaker 2: and you go in with an open mind. So with China,
[40:02] Speaker 2: and that's what I did.
[40:03] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[40:04] Speaker 2: So those sorts of things, I have a very– I
[40:07] Speaker 2: was very much blown away with their control of the media,
[40:11] Speaker 2: I must say. Yeah. You know, like CNN doesn't exist. No, no.
[40:16] Speaker 2: Those are all like you go in and Google and
[40:20] Speaker 2: all the Western mainstream platforms, social media platforms don't exist,
[40:26] Speaker 2: but they've replaced them with their own. Amazon doesn't exist,
[40:30] Speaker 2: but they've got Taobao. They've got their own behemoths.
[40:34] Speaker 1: Well, yeah, it's easy. I don't want to be too open-minded,
[40:39] Speaker 1: but you look at what we get fed in our
[40:41] Speaker 1: media is very much from a certain perspective. And yeah,
[40:45] Speaker 1: we criticize China that people aren't being reported what's happened
[40:48] Speaker 1: in the actual truth of the matters. But I think
[40:52] Speaker 1: every population has their media filtered to some degree.
[40:57] Speaker 2: Well, I look at America as a case in point.
[41:00] Speaker 1: Fake news. They're very insular. Oh, yes.
[41:03] Speaker 2: Yeah. You don't see what happens in Australia when you
[41:05] Speaker 2: go to the US. You don't see what happens over
[41:07] Speaker 2: in the UK.
[41:08] Speaker 1: Yeah. It's interesting that you live there, work there, and
[41:11] Speaker 1: you've come back with a differing view.
[41:14] Speaker 2: Yeah, I do. Yeah, I have.
[41:15] Speaker 1: I suppose you'd have to be careful too when you
[41:18] Speaker 1: get posted there that you're not played as well. Like
[41:21] Speaker 1: that could be the potential as well.
[41:23] Speaker 2: Oh, of course. Well, you're under surveillance once you get there.
[41:26] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[41:27] Speaker 2: Physical or audio. Yeah. And or audio. You know, but
[41:32] Speaker 2: if they just, they would have lost interest with us
[41:35] Speaker 2: because it's not our first radio. Yeah, yeah. So, you know,
[41:39] Speaker 2: it's more for others. Would I have been a high
[41:43] Speaker 2: value target? Probably when I first got there, but they
[41:46] Speaker 2: would have realised in the end that policing's different again. Yeah.
[41:50] Speaker 2: As I mentioned earlier, there's other people out there that
[41:54] Speaker 2: would have far more interest in it.
[41:55] Speaker 1: The crime that you talked about, touched on over there,
[42:00] Speaker 1: the fake kidnappings. Tell us through that because that was
[42:03] Speaker 1: something that- The virtual kidnappings. Yeah, virtual kidnappings.
[42:07] Speaker 2: Very strange phenomenon. Yeah. Yeah, so virtual kidnappings is pretty
[42:12] Speaker 2: much what the term is. It's the Clayton's kidnapping, the
[42:16] Speaker 2: kidnapping you have when you're not having a kidnapping. It
[42:20] Speaker 2: doesn't really assist with the initial police response within Australia.
[42:24] Speaker 2: So what it is is gangs in China purport to
[42:29] Speaker 2: be a Chinese authority, normally the Ministry of Public Security,
[42:33] Speaker 2: which is the police.
[42:34] Speaker 1: Yep.
[42:35] Speaker 2: And they make contact with a victim, a potential victim,
[42:39] Speaker 2: normally a student. In my experience, they were Sydney-based students.
[42:44] Speaker 1: Yep.
[42:45] Speaker 2: And then they would come up with this, coming up
[42:48] Speaker 2: with a story that they were wanted for a crime
[42:53] Speaker 2: that they never committed. And the only way they were
[42:56] Speaker 2: ever going to get out of it was to pay
[42:59] Speaker 2: their way out of it, pay their fine. And it'd
[43:02] Speaker 2: be some stupid, exorbitant amount of money. And how they
[43:06] Speaker 2: were to get out of that was basically to portray
[43:12] Speaker 2: that they were kidnapped and then extort their family.
[43:16] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[43:17] Speaker 2: Now, the interesting thing with this from a psychological point
[43:21] Speaker 2: of view is the trust they had in the person
[43:26] Speaker 2: purporting to be the authority in China was such that
[43:29] Speaker 2: they would do this.
[43:30] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[43:31] Speaker 2: And the fear of the local authorities, i.e., You and I,
[43:36] Speaker 2: the Australian police, the New South Wales police in this instance,
[43:39] Speaker 2: was such that it didn't exist. Yeah. That they would
[43:41] Speaker 2: never report it. So they would play along with this
[43:45] Speaker 2: to the great detriment of their own family. But then
[43:49] Speaker 2: when it is reported, then you've got New South Wales
[43:53] Speaker 2: police in this jurisdiction, because that was my experience, they
[43:57] Speaker 2: go full steam ahead treating it as a kidnapping. Yeah, yeah.
[44:01] Speaker 2: When it's all just smoke and mirrors.
[44:04] Speaker 1: I remember when it first started happening, we'd be reacting
[44:08] Speaker 1: and then started to wisen up that it might be all.
[44:12] Speaker 2: Because once a few of them come out, you start going, hey.
[44:15] Speaker 2: But when it first, you know, and I did the
[44:18] Speaker 2: first couple. And when you're dealing with, you know.
[44:22] Speaker 1: Well, the family from China would make contact with police
[44:25] Speaker 1: over here. My child's been kidnapped and it'd be full
[44:27] Speaker 1: steam ahead.
[44:28] Speaker 2: Full steam ahead.
[44:29] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[44:29] Speaker 2: And then when it starts coming out. And you're speaking
[44:32] Speaker 2: with the family and you're finding out, and then you're
[44:34] Speaker 2: speaking with, you know, New South. Yeah. And you apologise
[44:40] Speaker 2: for wasting time. You're like piggy in the middle. Yeah.
[44:44] Speaker 2: You've got no control over it, but yeah, no, it's, yeah,
[44:48] Speaker 2: that was quite the phenomenon there for a while.
[44:51] Speaker 1: Terrorist attack in Sri Lanka.
[44:54] Speaker 2: You were.
[44:54] Speaker 1: Head of or commander of the Asian group at that stage.
[44:58] Speaker 2: Yeah, so Sri Lanka was part of my command, yeah.
[45:00] Speaker 1: That was in 2019. Easter Sunday bombings. Yeah, and more
[45:07] Speaker 1: than 250 people killed, nine separate locations, suicide bombers, and
[45:13] Speaker 1: I think there was two Australians.
[45:15] Speaker 2: Two Australians, 6,000 injured.
[45:17] Speaker 1: Yeah. Tell us about your involvement in that and what
[45:21] Speaker 1: happened there.
[45:23] Speaker 2: Well, I was in Thailand at the time. I got
[45:25] Speaker 2: a phone call from my senior officer to tell me
[45:28] Speaker 2: that he'd been notified by, he was outside of Colombo
[45:31] Speaker 2: on that Sunday, and he'd been notified by the Sri
[45:36] Speaker 2: Lankan police, by the head of the CID, the Criminal
[45:38] Speaker 2: Investigation Division, that what had occurred. And at that point,
[45:43] Speaker 2: the AFP was the only international policing, foreign policing agency
[45:48] Speaker 2: that was based in Colombo at the time. So he
[45:51] Speaker 2: got the first heads up. And we obviously, because we
[45:57] Speaker 2: had people over there, people smuggling, you can't get around it.
[46:01] Speaker 2: And we just made sure everyone was safe. We had
[46:05] Speaker 2: a new ambassador at the time. And I asked Stuart,
[46:12] Speaker 2: Stuart Allen was the senior officer, to make inquiries about,
[46:17] Speaker 2: is there any assistance that's required of the Sri Lankan police?
[46:21] Speaker 2: As you said, there was nine locations that had been
[46:23] Speaker 2: hit over a period of time. Now, what we did
[46:28] Speaker 2: understand is that with the churches and the Western hotels,
[46:36] Speaker 2: obviously the churches were holding Easter Sunday celebrations.
[46:40] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[46:40] Speaker 2: But the hotels were advertising Easter Sunday lunches or breakfast.
[46:45] Speaker 1: So they're looking to target foreigners.
[46:48] Speaker 2: Yeah. So then- It was basically something of this magnitude
[46:53] Speaker 2: that I'd be, there was an expectation that I'd go in.
[46:58] Speaker 2: The AFP determined that counterterrorism would lead the command response.
[47:05] Speaker 2: I would go in as the senior investigative officer and
[47:09] Speaker 2: Stuart would do what Stuart needs to do. So I
[47:13] Speaker 2: arrived the morning after, just as we were, they were
[47:18] Speaker 2: quickly just driving me through the first church, and that's
[47:22] Speaker 2: when they found the booby-trapped car, which was detonated as
[47:28] Speaker 2: we were driving through. I'm just quite reminded you've already
[47:32] Speaker 2: seen what people were like. Again, it was similar to Bali.
[47:35] Speaker 2: We're coming in and people are going out, and they'd
[47:38] Speaker 2: already reinforced the airport going in, going out. And so
[47:45] Speaker 2: then Sri Lanka had asked for intelligence support, And digital forensics. Yep.
[47:51] Speaker 2: And again, we're dealing with a death penalty country. Yeah.
[47:54] Speaker 2: Even though they haven't executed anybody for quite some time.
[47:58] Speaker 2: So we had to manage that political dynamic. So we
[48:04] Speaker 2: basically were working with the Sri Lankans. We're getting a
[48:08] Speaker 2: thumbnail sketch. The new ambassador we're getting, he got quite
[48:12] Speaker 2: an extensive briefing early from the president that highlighted perhaps
[48:19] Speaker 2: some political inaction and also some foreign actors come into play.
[48:27] Speaker 2: It was at this point that the hotel that we
[48:31] Speaker 2: were staying at, where we were going to stay at,
[48:34] Speaker 2: which we did stay at, was one where one of
[48:39] Speaker 2: the bombers, Latif, he attempted to detonate, but it didn't
[48:44] Speaker 2: go off.
[48:46] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[48:46] Speaker 2: So he then went. to fix his bomb just outside
[48:51] Speaker 2: of Colombo and she went off. He was mucking around
[48:56] Speaker 2: with it.
[48:57] Speaker 1: Shouldn't laugh at someone's death.
[48:59] Speaker 2: I know.
[48:59] Speaker 1: But I will in that circumstance.
[49:00] Speaker 2: Well, the interesting thing about Lateef is he had Australian connections,
[49:03] Speaker 2: which really threw a cat amongst the pigeons a bit
[49:05] Speaker 2: later and I got caught. My political antenna let me
[49:09] Speaker 2: down on that one. Yeah, so we end up having
[49:14] Speaker 2: a whole assistance group package arrive. We worked with, um, well,
[49:20] Speaker 2: the FBI turned up, the UK turned up, Interpol turned up,
[49:24] Speaker 2: every man and his dog turned up with different agendas.
[49:26] Speaker 2: We were the only ones there to help these Sri Lankans.
[49:28] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[49:29] Speaker 2: And in the end, we end up with our own agenda.
[49:31] Speaker 2: We're still helping the Sri Lankans, but then we had
[49:33] Speaker 2: an Australian connection.
[49:34] Speaker 1: That's the thing that complicates your career in the areas
[49:37] Speaker 1: that you worked, isn't it? There's so many people in there.
[49:40] Speaker 1: Whose role, who takes leadership? Are we working? What are
[49:43] Speaker 1: we providing? There's so many negotiation things. You must have
[49:47] Speaker 1: become very skilled at negotiating.
[49:50] Speaker 2: Yeah, I suppose that's true. In the end, yeah, it's
[49:54] Speaker 2: just the geopolitical minefield. And then you've got to separate
[49:59] Speaker 2: the wheat from the chaff, like the good contributors and
[50:02] Speaker 2: the ones who are useless.
[50:03] Speaker 1: Yeah. And when you're talking law enforcement, there's a lot
[50:05] Speaker 1: of egos in there. And so you're dealing with that.
[50:09] Speaker 1: And then you just identified the good ones or the
[50:11] Speaker 1: useless ones. Like, yeah, a lot going on. What I
[50:16] Speaker 1: particularly liked about the Sri Lankan one, and I'm saying
[50:20] Speaker 1: this tongue in cheek, but there was... The head of
[50:24] Speaker 1: the police and military were convicted of failing to identify
[50:29] Speaker 1: red flags or indicators that this was going to happen,
[50:32] Speaker 1: and they were sentenced to death.
[50:33] Speaker 2: Yeah. That surprised me too. Interesting how they're holding the
[50:37] Speaker 2: officials to a higher degree than the actual perpetrators, because
[50:42] Speaker 2: the perpetrators, or some of them, have been sentenced, and
[50:45] Speaker 2: they've got 220 years. Right. But they're holding those two
[50:50] Speaker 2: particular officials to a higher standard. Well, it's interesting, the
[50:53] Speaker 2: Sri Lankan, the bombing, the evolution from petty crime to extremism.
[51:01] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[51:02] Speaker 2: The evolution pathway and how quick it occurred is quite disturbing.
[51:07] Speaker 2: And it was ISIS-inspired or ISIL-inspired. And that's where they're
[51:12] Speaker 2: concerned that they didn't match. Apart from the foreign aspect
[51:18] Speaker 2: of what occurred, they didn't connect. Yeah. That's where we
[51:25] Speaker 2: really helped them out building that picture of crime because
[51:28] Speaker 2: they were building nine different cases of murder.
[51:31] Speaker 1: Individual silos. Yeah.
[51:32] Speaker 2: Yeah. As opposed to bringing it all together as one
[51:36] Speaker 2: huge case. But we helped them with that. But again,
[51:41] Speaker 2: that could be legislative deficiencies as well there.
[51:44] Speaker 1: Well, you'd know as a law enforcement officer and worked
[51:48] Speaker 1: in a whole range of different jurisdictions that when these
[51:52] Speaker 1: crimes occur- You take something away. You learn something on
[51:56] Speaker 1: every job you worked on. I'm sure every major job
[51:58] Speaker 1: you worked on.
[51:59] Speaker 2: The day you stop learning is the day you die.
[52:00] Speaker 1: You walk away, critique. I could have done that a
[52:03] Speaker 1: little bit better. You learn. That's the experience. So, yeah,
[52:06] Speaker 1: mistakes will be made in law enforcement. And, yeah, terrorism
[52:11] Speaker 1: is a difficult one because it's, yeah, it's preemptive. You've
[52:15] Speaker 1: got to get in there before. Once the bombs have
[52:17] Speaker 1: gone off, it's too late. So it makes it harder to,
[52:21] Speaker 1: you know, prevent and investigate, but, uh, we learn and, uh,
[52:26] Speaker 1: hopefully practices, practices improve.
[52:29] Speaker 2: Yeah, totally.
[52:30] Speaker 1: Um, another thing I wanted to talk to you about was, um,
[52:33] Speaker 1: your thoughts on policing and a quote from your book.
[52:36] Speaker 1: And I'll just get your thoughts on that. Policing thrives
[52:39] Speaker 1: not on chiefs alone, but on the tireless work of
[52:42] Speaker 1: those who wade through the muck of duty, the foot
[52:45] Speaker 1: soldiers with grime, streaked boots, trudging forward. Um, I think
[52:49] Speaker 1: I get what you're saying there, but just explain it
[52:52] Speaker 1: to us.
[52:54] Speaker 2: Yeah, it's just, it's a matter of, you know, realizing
[52:57] Speaker 2: that too many chiefs spoil the broth. Yeah. You know,
[53:02] Speaker 2: we've got to realize that the foot soldiers are the
[53:04] Speaker 2: ones who do the job.
[53:05] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[53:06] Speaker 2: And we've got to support them. We've got to really,
[53:08] Speaker 2: you know, knuckle down and really take heed of the
[53:12] Speaker 2: advice that the people at the top don't always know. Yeah.
[53:16] Speaker 2: Don't have the answers. Yeah. we've got to really appreciate
[53:21] Speaker 2: what the people at the coalface are seeing and feeling
[53:25] Speaker 2: and knowing. And I think we've lost that.
[53:29] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[53:29] Speaker 2: And people who get it to the higher ranks, uh,
[53:33] Speaker 2: sort of in their ivory tower and not really being
[53:38] Speaker 2: as collaborative as they could be. Yeah. And we can
[53:42] Speaker 2: improve or they can improve on that.
[53:44] Speaker 1: And it's an important position, leadership in, in policing and, uh,
[53:50] Speaker 1: that's why I use that analogy that you've said with
[53:53] Speaker 1: the cave rescue, that you were the coach of an
[53:57] Speaker 1: elite team of athletes and just wanted to allow them
[54:00] Speaker 1: to concentrate on what they needed to do. The bosses,
[54:05] Speaker 1: I think, and I'm generalizing here, so there's good, there's bad,
[54:09] Speaker 1: there's in between. But the ones that rise in rank
[54:13] Speaker 1: without the experience. They're the ones that I see that
[54:16] Speaker 1: tend to over-interfere in investigations and not listen to the
[54:19] Speaker 1: operational police or respect the operational police and feel like
[54:24] Speaker 1: they've got to overcompensate because of their lack of experience
[54:28] Speaker 1: by ingratiating themselves in investigations where really they should be facilitating,
[54:32] Speaker 1: making it as easy for the operators to do their job.
[54:35] Speaker 2: Well, you don't want people learning on the job.
[54:38] Speaker 1: No, no.
[54:39] Speaker 2: Not at that level.
[54:39] Speaker 1: Not at that level. That's where it's crucial. Just reflections
[54:45] Speaker 1: on your career here. This is another quote I just
[54:48] Speaker 1: pulled out from your book. My canvas stretched across the
[54:51] Speaker 1: vast expanse of the AFP. As a covert operative, I
[54:54] Speaker 1: moved between shadows trailing elusive criminals. As a detective, I
[54:59] Speaker 1: unraveled mysteries, each thread leading to justice. Diplomacy became my lexicon,
[55:05] Speaker 1: bridging cultures and borders. As a commissioned officer, I stood
[55:08] Speaker 1: at the crossroads of duty and honour. Again, I get
[55:12] Speaker 1: all that you're saying there, but just in your words,
[55:16] Speaker 1: just explaining what you mean by that quote.
[55:19] Speaker 2: I think, well, I know. It's basically I've had a
[55:22] Speaker 2: very full and filling career. I was fortunate to be
[55:28] Speaker 2: outside the blue curtain, inside the blue curtain. I've dealt
[55:33] Speaker 2: with geopolitics. And at the commander level, I was able
[55:38] Speaker 2: to lead and allow people to grow. I suppose it's
[55:44] Speaker 2: just I was just very fortunate that my career went
[55:51] Speaker 2: where it went. And, yeah, I think that's where I'm
[55:56] Speaker 2: going with that.
[55:57] Speaker 1: Well, I see it to me. It shows me a
[56:00] Speaker 1: career of someone that's been at the coalface, done the work.
[56:05] Speaker 1: rising through the ranks at the right pace, but understanding
[56:08] Speaker 1: what leadership becomes when you get there. And I think
[56:11] Speaker 1: that if policing goes wrong, I think it's where people
[56:15] Speaker 1: look at an organisation and think, what can I take
[56:17] Speaker 1: from the organisation rather than what I can give to
[56:19] Speaker 1: the organisation? And I think, yeah, what I'm seeing of
[56:23] Speaker 1: you and speaking to you, it feels like you've enjoyed
[56:27] Speaker 1: every day. There's been the hard times, but committed to
[56:31] Speaker 1: giving to the organisation and just rolling your sleeves up
[56:34] Speaker 1: and doing your best.
[56:36] Speaker 2: I'd agree with that. Yeah, totally.
[56:37] Speaker 1: No, credit to you. But it comes at a cost
[56:41] Speaker 1: and your career didn't end the way you thought it
[56:44] Speaker 1: would and you carried some scarring from all the things.
[56:47] Speaker 1: And what we've talked about are just some of the
[56:50] Speaker 1: things you've done too. I should clarify that. But you've
[56:53] Speaker 1: carried some damage from it. Are you happy to talk
[56:56] Speaker 1: a little bit about that?
[56:57] Speaker 2: Yeah, of course. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
[57:00] Speaker 1: So your career, when it came to an end, you
[57:03] Speaker 1: walked away?
[57:04] Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, yeah, I walked away. Not the way I
[57:07] Speaker 2: wanted to walk away. I buried a lot of things
[57:14] Speaker 2: over the course of my career, probably that 2001, 2002,
[57:17] Speaker 2: more than anything. We briefly spoke about the 2003.
[57:19] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[57:19] Speaker 2: And- Later into my career, after I came back from
[57:31] Speaker 2: China more so, when you're dealing in the most, in
[57:36] Speaker 2: my view, the most strategically important posts within the AFP
[57:40] Speaker 2: and you come back to the sort of the lower
[57:42] Speaker 2: end of the spectrum. I came back to Adelaide, a
[57:47] Speaker 2: smaller office.
[57:48] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[57:49] Speaker 2: You're dealing with sort of lower importance, you know. Yeah.
[57:53] Speaker 2: You're dealing with demand as opposed to supply in a
[57:57] Speaker 2: drug sense. We had COVID happening. I was really Jekyll
[58:01] Speaker 2: and Hyde, which is not very nice. Right.
[58:05] Speaker 1: You acknowledge that now looking back.
[58:07] Speaker 2: Absolutely.
[58:08] Speaker 1: You could be on.
[58:08] Speaker 2: Or off depending on what. I was fine at work. Yeah.
[58:15] Speaker 2: And when I was posted into Brisbane, my last two postings. Yeah. Yeah,
[58:21] Speaker 2: I was awful at home.
[58:22] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[58:22] Speaker 2: My wife, I had off to her. She's a champion. Yeah. Chrissy. Uh,
[58:27] Speaker 2: and I then, uh, went through some assessments for, I
[58:32] Speaker 2: didn't think that was suitability, suitability of employment, but anyway,
[58:35] Speaker 2: one of the psychiatrists basically said, you're done. Yeah. Um,
[58:40] Speaker 2: what do you mean I'm done? And I said, yeah, you,
[58:43] Speaker 2: you can't work for the AFP ever again. I don't
[58:45] Speaker 2: know what it said.
[58:46] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[58:46] Speaker 2: But anyway, it was set in stone. So I had to, uh,
[58:50] Speaker 2: I was medically retired.
[58:51] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[58:52] Speaker 2: Um, So I retired medically on the 22nd of May,
[58:56] Speaker 2: which was 35 years, three months to the day.
[58:59] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[59:00] Speaker 2: And then I had to make the decision if I
[59:03] Speaker 2: needed to do more.
[59:05] Speaker 1: Yep. More work on yourself.
[59:07] Speaker 2: On myself. And that- day came. Yeah. I had to
[59:12] Speaker 2: do it not only for myself but for my wife
[59:15] Speaker 2: because I was behaving badly. Yeah. And so everything with
[59:20] Speaker 2: me though is I don't do things in half measures
[59:23] Speaker 2: and boots and all. So I went to– my psych
[59:30] Speaker 2: and we had the decision. I was already seeing a psychiatrist,
[59:33] Speaker 2: but I went to the psychologist and she asked me,
[59:38] Speaker 2: how far are we going to go? And I said, well,
[59:41] Speaker 2: I'm in it. And she goes, well, she's Rhodesian. She goes, well,
[59:45] Speaker 2: I have to break you to fix you. Yeah.
[59:49] Speaker 1: Okay.
[59:49] Speaker 2: And so we did the cognitive behavior therapy and I thought, well,
[59:53] Speaker 2: this is okay. Yeah. It's not bad. And then we
[59:56] Speaker 2: did the EMDR, the eye EMDR, eye movement, desensitization, reprocessing. Yeah. Well,
[1:00:03] Speaker 2: that is hell on wheels. Yeah. So she did. Yeah,
[1:00:06] Speaker 2: she broke me. But what it did was bring everything up.
[1:00:13] Speaker 2: It took two years to do, two and a half years.
[1:00:15] Speaker 2: And it allowed me to be able to talk about
[1:00:18] Speaker 2: things we're able to talk about today. Yeah. And what
[1:00:21] Speaker 2: I was able to articulate further in the book, particularly
[1:00:25] Speaker 2: those periods of time I mentioned, But I'm still a
[1:00:28] Speaker 2: work in progress. I'm not healed at all. I still
[1:00:32] Speaker 2: have my moments. And I've got to work on myself
[1:00:38] Speaker 2: every day. So it's still a battle. But I'm a
[1:00:42] Speaker 2: lot better than I was. But there's still a long
[1:00:44] Speaker 2: road to go.
[1:00:44] Speaker 1: Well, the fact you acknowledge that, and I say this
[1:00:47] Speaker 1: without any expertise as a psychologist, obviously, but the fact
[1:00:51] Speaker 1: that you acknowledge that you've got to work every day is,
[1:00:54] Speaker 1: I think, a good thing. that you're not going, I'm
[1:00:57] Speaker 1: better now and you'll just fall back into your old
[1:01:00] Speaker 1: ways if you go with that attitude. But yeah, we
[1:01:06] Speaker 1: joined a different time, different era, and these type of
[1:01:09] Speaker 1: things weren't discussed. Or if you did discuss that back
[1:01:13] Speaker 1: when we joined, you would have been saying, come on,
[1:01:15] Speaker 1: I'll get you a beer at the pub. That would
[1:01:18] Speaker 1: have been the way that we dealt with it.
[1:01:19] Speaker 2: And that's what we did.
[1:01:20] Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. Most definitely involved in critical incidents or whatever. Okay,
[1:01:24] Speaker 1: let's go to the pub and you get wasted, and
[1:01:28] Speaker 1: then wake up the next day and go, oh, Jesus,
[1:01:31] Speaker 1: haven't dealt with that. But, yeah, I think we have
[1:01:34] Speaker 1: moved forward now. So full credit to you for owning it.
[1:01:38] Speaker 2: Well, you know, and I said to my wife, she
[1:01:42] Speaker 2: asked me, you know, particularly with the book now, she
[1:01:44] Speaker 2: asked me, am I okay? And I said, well, I'll
[1:01:47] Speaker 2: do a check-in. You know, after I do a bit more,
[1:01:50] Speaker 2: you know, I've got a couple of other things to do,
[1:01:53] Speaker 2: I'll do a check-in, you know, make sure that I don't.
[1:01:56] Speaker 2: go down that rabbit hole again, you know, because talking
[1:01:59] Speaker 2: about it's great.
[1:02:00] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[1:02:00] Speaker 2: But it also, you're left thinking.
[1:02:03] Speaker 1: I was going to caution that too because I went
[1:02:06] Speaker 1: down the path of a book coming out after my
[1:02:09] Speaker 1: policing and doing the, you know, going around talking about
[1:02:11] Speaker 1: it and all that. It's confronting sometimes and sometimes you
[1:02:14] Speaker 1: step away from it and go, oh, what have I said?
[1:02:17] Speaker 1: What have I talked about? But look, it's a good
[1:02:21] Speaker 1: raw account of your career and Did you find it
[1:02:25] Speaker 1: cathartic putting it all down?
[1:02:29] Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely.
[1:02:29] Speaker 1: And then you can look back and go, well, hey,
[1:02:31] Speaker 1: this is my career, so nothing hidden there. This is
[1:02:34] Speaker 1: what I'm about.
[1:02:35] Speaker 2: I couldn't be any more open. Yeah, yeah. And that's
[1:02:37] Speaker 2: what I wanted. It wasn't all about being the hero or,
[1:02:40] Speaker 2: you know, all the good things. I wanted to put
[1:02:42] Speaker 2: that last bit in and give it that balance to say,
[1:02:46] Speaker 2: you know, it's all well and good, but, you know,
[1:02:50] Speaker 2: the realistic side is it does– it could– come at
[1:02:53] Speaker 2: a cost.
[1:02:54] Speaker 1: Yeah yeah well i i think you've got to acknowledge
[1:02:56] Speaker 1: you join the police it's going to uh going to
[1:02:58] Speaker 1: change you yeah well look we might uh we might
[1:03:01] Speaker 1: wrap it up here i i just want to uh
[1:03:03] Speaker 1: thank you for your your service uh to the community
[1:03:06] Speaker 1: and thank you broader community society because you've certainly covered
[1:03:09] Speaker 1: some areas appreciate you coming on here and your honesty
[1:03:12] Speaker 1: and uh i enjoyed your book crime chaos and controversy
[1:03:16] Speaker 1: but uh thanks very much thanks
[1:03:17] Speaker 2: Very much gary appreciate it

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