# ‘I probably needed to go to prison’: Tahlia Isaac Pt. 1

An episode of [I Catch Killers with Gary Jubelin](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1506667049), 23 May 2026, 56 min.

Audio: https://p.podderapp.com/2544644999/traffic.omny.fm/d/clips/2fb3740d-3436-44af-8cc0-a91900716aa5/5bc8c2ed-b718-4f44-beb3-ac2a005246cc/e239540a-f72e-4cab-8c01-b451007372eb/audio.mp3?utm_source=Podcast&in_playlist=786928c3-10c1-4cef-a7bf-ac2a005246d0

Tahlia Isaac sat in a watch house, facing serious criminal charges, with no phone, no money, and a face beaten by her abusive partner. Her lawyer told her she was going to prison. So she set her life on fire. After using drugs recreationally as a teenager, Tahlia quickly fell into a spiral of addiction, toxic relationships, drug dealing, and serious criminal charges. But that's only half the story. In this episode of I Catch Killers, Tahlia challenges everything you think you know about who ends up in prison and why. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

## Transcript

[0:01] Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.
[0:05] Speaker 1: Detective see a side of life the average person is
[0:07] Speaker 1: never exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop.
[0:11] Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years, I was catching killers.
[0:14] Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a
[0:16] Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,
[0:20] Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.
[0:23] Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories
[0:26] Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw
[0:28] Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some
[0:31] Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because
[0:34] Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.
[0:38] Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.
[0:46] Speaker 1: What do we really know about life inside the women's
[0:49] Speaker 1: prison beyond what we've seen on shows like Wentworth and
[0:52] Speaker 1: Orange is the New Black? The answer is not much.
[0:56] Speaker 1: My guest today, Tali or Isaac lived it. She spent
[1:00] Speaker 1: years behind bars, and since her release, she's dedicated her
[1:04] Speaker 1: life to advocating for women like her caught up in
[1:07] Speaker 1: the system. Taralia taught me that women in prison often
[1:11] Speaker 1: aren't who you think they are. Their stories aren't simple.
[1:15] Speaker 1: I think she'll change the way you see things too, Tarlia,
[1:20] Speaker 1: I say, welcome to I Catch Killers.
[1:22] Speaker 2: Thanks Gary.
[1:23] Speaker 1: Well, I'm excited to have a chat with you because
[1:27] Speaker 1: I've been reading your book. And also I had to
[1:31] Speaker 1: listen to the talk that you did at the National
[1:34] Speaker 1: Press Gallery. Yeah, and wow, it was impressive.
[1:37] Speaker 2: Thank you. I haven't watched it, so it makes one
[1:39] Speaker 2: of us.
[1:40] Speaker 1: Okay, well, trust me, you can watch it, and you're
[1:42] Speaker 1: not going to be embarrassed because you never know what
[1:44] Speaker 1: you say when you're standing on stage. Do you and
[1:46] Speaker 1: I had a.
[1:46] Speaker 2: Script, but I can't remember most of it.
[1:49] Speaker 1: Yeah, well I think you nailed it. Did you ever
[1:53] Speaker 1: think when you were in the Watchhouse waiting to be
[1:56] Speaker 1: taken to prison that down the track you'd be at
[1:59] Speaker 1: the National Press Gallery in camera delivering a talk, which
[2:03] Speaker 1: is a pretty important stage to be on. Yeah.
[2:07] Speaker 2: I never, in my wildest dreams thought, not even before
[2:10] Speaker 2: the Watchhouse, would think that that would be my future reality.
[2:15] Speaker 2: But yeah, it was pretty pretty cool to be like
[2:17] Speaker 2: the first formally incarcerated woman to take that stage and
[2:21] Speaker 2: say the things that I wanted to say, and it
[2:23] Speaker 2: was received so well, Like it was just I didn't.
[2:26] Speaker 2: I expected to have some pushback. You know, when we're
[2:30] Speaker 2: talking about justice and we're talking about prisons and there's inflated,
[2:35] Speaker 2: inflated like tensions around the topic, you know, in the
[2:38] Speaker 2: media and the public perception and social media, you always
[2:41] Speaker 2: kind of expect that someone's going to push back and
[2:44] Speaker 2: say something.
[2:45] Speaker 1: Well, i'd imagine if there's a vulnerability when you're basing
[2:49] Speaker 1: your talk on your lived experience, and there's that pushback
[2:52] Speaker 1: that comes within the community and everyone's entitled to an opinion,
[2:56] Speaker 1: but well, they're in jail. Why are we conn about
[3:00] Speaker 1: someone in jail?
[3:01] Speaker 2: Yeah, Or they love to say do the crime, do
[3:03] Speaker 2: the time?
[3:04] Speaker 1: Oh, that's he, that's her. Yeah, Yeah, that's that's a
[3:08] Speaker 1: that's a consistent.
[3:09] Speaker 2: One, that's consistent.
[3:10] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[3:10] Speaker 2: But I didn't get any of that, and I did
[3:12] Speaker 2: expect it. I think I had one person message and
[3:16] Speaker 2: it wasn't really coherent. So it was, you know, just
[3:19] Speaker 2: like the most loveliest message that we that we received
[3:23] Speaker 2: and that I received, and so much support and love
[3:25] Speaker 2: and kindness, which was really great.
[3:27] Speaker 1: That's that's good. What was the message you wanted to
[3:30] Speaker 1: get across? Like you're on stage, you've got an audience
[3:34] Speaker 1: at a powerful audience, at the message in that you're
[3:37] Speaker 1: delivering on stage can get out to a much bigger audience.
[3:41] Speaker 1: What was the message you wanted to deliver?
[3:44] Speaker 2: I think the message I wanted to deliver was that
[3:45] Speaker 2: the justice system in its current form is ineffective for everyone.
[3:49] Speaker 2: And as from the perspective of a woman who's both
[3:52] Speaker 2: been a victim and a perpetrator of you know, offenses,
[3:57] Speaker 2: I bring that unique perspective in terms of saying it
[4:01] Speaker 2: doesn't work for victims, it doesn't work for people who
[4:03] Speaker 2: are in prison, and they're both, they're both interrelated, They're
[4:07] Speaker 2: not one or the other. And you know, women especially
[4:11] Speaker 2: are really disadvantaged after being incarcerated and it's often very
[4:15] Speaker 2: just arbitrary stuff that they are going to prison for it,
[4:20] Speaker 2: and so I just want to shift that narrative. And
[4:22] Speaker 2: then the other reason I, you know, the other message
[4:25] Speaker 2: I wanted to get out was that women like I
[4:27] Speaker 2: wanted women in prison to see me on that stage
[4:30] Speaker 2: and like see part of themselves in me, or at
[4:33] Speaker 2: least see that I've been in prison, and that is possible.
[4:36] Speaker 2: And I'm not like, I'm not like just one, like
[4:40] Speaker 2: there's lots of us.
[4:42] Speaker 1: Well, I see in the preparation that I've done for
[4:45] Speaker 1: the podcast and also speaking to you and speaking to
[4:47] Speaker 1: people that they that one of the things. I think
[4:50] Speaker 1: it's a testament to your character, the messaging that you're delivering. Yes,
[4:54] Speaker 1: it's deep and it's personal, and it's about your life
[4:57] Speaker 1: story and your journey, but I get the sense and
[5:00] Speaker 1: and reading the book she is me, and also taking
[5:04] Speaker 1: the messaging from the address to the press collery that
[5:08] Speaker 1: you're speaking for other people as well.
[5:10] Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I always I'm really careful, like I
[5:13] Speaker 2: don't want to speak on behalf of but I do
[5:16] Speaker 2: like we get I get told stories, and you know,
[5:18] Speaker 2: like people trust me with their narrative and with their
[5:21] Speaker 2: you know, with their most deepest, darker things and give
[5:24] Speaker 2: me permission to share on their behalf and it brings
[5:27] Speaker 2: a bigger picture, Like it brings a broader narrative than
[5:30] Speaker 2: just my own story, because it is more than just me.
[5:34] Speaker 2: And I always like am really careful, like I don't
[5:36] Speaker 2: wish to speak on behalf of anybody, but if if
[5:40] Speaker 2: you see yourself in me, then I think the message
[5:43] Speaker 2: is kind of the same for all of us, is
[5:45] Speaker 2: that this isn't working yeah.
[5:46] Speaker 1: Yeah, Well, I think the fact that you've turned your
[5:50] Speaker 1: life around so dramatically can give inspiration for people, no
[5:55] Speaker 1: matter how low. And we'll talk about your low points,
[5:57] Speaker 1: and it got pretty pretty lowly. I think that helps
[6:01] Speaker 1: people that there is a way out. And you're addicted
[6:04] Speaker 1: to drugs, you're in prison. You can't on the social scale,
[6:08] Speaker 1: You can't sit much lower than that within your own mind,
[6:12] Speaker 1: and it must attack your sense of self worth and
[6:15] Speaker 1: everything else being at that low point. So the fact
[6:19] Speaker 1: that you found a way out of it, I think
[6:21] Speaker 1: is an inspirational message to a lot of people in there.
[6:25] Speaker 1: Women in prison. We don't give it a lot of thought,
[6:27] Speaker 1: do we.
[6:28] Speaker 2: I mean, it's weird because I live and breathe this stuff,
[6:31] Speaker 2: So I'm like, I think about it all the time.
[6:34] Speaker 2: But more and more I do this, the more I realize, No,
[6:37] Speaker 2: we don't really think about it, because if it doesn't
[6:39] Speaker 2: impact us, why would we consider it.
[6:41] Speaker 1: Yeah, and you talk prisons other than say a show
[6:46] Speaker 1: like Orange is a New Black or what was that
[6:48] Speaker 1: Prison went Worth? Yeah, they put the spotlight on women's prisons,
[6:52] Speaker 1: but generally the public when we speak prisons, you're naturally
[6:57] Speaker 1: going deferring to the males in the is not so
[7:00] Speaker 1: much the females.
[7:01] Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think also like the male experience or
[7:05] Speaker 2: this like big bad place somewhere over there where bad
[7:09] Speaker 2: people go and we just kind of don't even give
[7:13] Speaker 2: it another thought.
[7:15] Speaker 1: One of the messages you bought out then you used
[7:18] Speaker 1: it quite a bit in the talk social contract and
[7:22] Speaker 1: talked about social contract. It made me think, in your
[7:25] Speaker 1: perspective on what the social contract is in the context
[7:28] Speaker 1: that you're referring to, could you talk to us about
[7:32] Speaker 1: what you mean by social contract?
[7:34] Speaker 2: Yeah, So, like the basis of our justice system is
[7:36] Speaker 2: that in exchange for us allowing the government to enact
[7:40] Speaker 2: the arms of justice, we give them full control of
[7:44] Speaker 2: that and we in trust that they are going to
[7:47] Speaker 2: do it in the correct way that keeps us safe.
[7:49] Speaker 2: They also need to provide the foundational conditions to keep
[7:52] Speaker 2: us safe. So we're talking basic human needs that allows
[7:56] Speaker 2: the community to successfully exeit cute what it looks like
[8:01] Speaker 2: to live in a harmonious community. So like food, shelter, belonging, safety,
[8:08] Speaker 2: those are the fundamental things that we need to exist
[8:13] Speaker 2: in a community harmoniously. And we trust the government or
[8:16] Speaker 2: the people that are in power and mob did it before,
[8:19] Speaker 2: and it was elders that we entrusted, and then we
[8:21] Speaker 2: entrusted them to enact forms of justice that were both relational,
[8:25] Speaker 2: so they say they both kept people accountable but also
[8:29] Speaker 2: continued this harmonious relationship within the community. So that's what
[8:32] Speaker 2: I mean by the social contract. It's in its current form,
[8:34] Speaker 2: in the current system we have, we entrust our governments
[8:37] Speaker 2: rather than our elders.
[8:38] Speaker 1: Okay, so you're talking about the indigenous communities, how they
[8:42] Speaker 1: rely on the elders to enforce the justice and keep
[8:46] Speaker 1: the social control.
[8:47] Speaker 2: And now I mean that's where the concept originated from. Yeah,
[8:50] Speaker 2: and then kind of European philosophers kind of took the
[8:54] Speaker 2: concept over and then this is what we have now
[8:57] Speaker 2: as a social contract, is that we entrust our governments
[9:00] Speaker 2: and it's supposed to be a two way street.
[9:02] Speaker 1: And where do you think we're failing in the social contract?
[9:06] Speaker 2: Well, the basic conditions to exist in a community harmoniously
[9:10] Speaker 2: without hurting each other are getting worse and worse, Like
[9:13] Speaker 2: they're getting straight more strained and strained. And then our
[9:16] Speaker 2: forms of justice have broken down so much so that
[9:20] Speaker 2: people commit an offense, they're not held accountable to make
[9:25] Speaker 2: better choices to not do that thing again. Like, we're
[9:28] Speaker 2: not giving people the tools and the resources once they've
[9:32] Speaker 2: committed something like once they've broken the social contract, so
[9:35] Speaker 2: they've calmed someone or they've done something to harm that contract,
[9:38] Speaker 2: we're not giving them the tools and the resources to
[9:41] Speaker 2: not further do any harm. We put them in a
[9:43] Speaker 2: prison and we go, don't do it again, but figure
[9:47] Speaker 2: out how you're not going to do that. And we
[9:49] Speaker 2: don't actually, like as a society, as governments, we don't
[9:52] Speaker 2: actually go, Okay, these are the things you need to
[9:55] Speaker 2: do to not commit that offense again. We're going to
[9:58] Speaker 2: make sure that everyone's by helping you not go back
[10:02] Speaker 2: to prison or not go back to committing those offenses.
[10:05] Speaker 1: It's an approach from a different way, and it's a
[10:08] Speaker 1: more complex approach what you're talking But I had a
[10:12] Speaker 1: guest on the podcast. He had a difficult childhood and
[10:17] Speaker 1: he was talking about when he was at his most
[10:20] Speaker 1: vulnerable because he came from the environment he grew up in.
[10:24] Speaker 1: The family environment wasn't conducive to him being looked after.
[10:28] Speaker 1: He was basically homeless from a very early age and
[10:31] Speaker 1: passed around from family to family, And he said I
[10:34] Speaker 1: needed protection, not prosecution. Is that the type of thing?
[10:38] Speaker 1: Because when he said that, it sort of opened my
[10:40] Speaker 1: eyes up to shit, Yeah, we've got a kid that's struggling.
[10:44] Speaker 1: He's sleeping on the streets at ten or eleven, not
[10:47] Speaker 1: at night ten or eleven age because he hasn't got
[10:51] Speaker 1: a safe place to go to. And then we get
[10:53] Speaker 1: to the point where we're going to prosecute this kid
[10:56] Speaker 1: and put him in detention, whereas what he needed was
[10:59] Speaker 1: protection and God guidance and direction.
[11:01] Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think that's where our system's kind of
[11:04] Speaker 2: broken down, is that it's all about the punishment and
[11:08] Speaker 2: never about the accountability and the repair after that. And
[11:13] Speaker 2: we're so focused on the punishment side. It's so vengeful
[11:17] Speaker 2: that we've forgotten that people get out of prison. They
[11:21] Speaker 2: pretty much always always get out of prison, Like there's
[11:24] Speaker 2: very few people who are doing the rest of their
[11:27] Speaker 2: lives in there. And so isn't it upon the people
[11:30] Speaker 2: who we entrust to enact the forms of justice to
[11:33] Speaker 2: make sure those people don't get out and commit another
[11:35] Speaker 2: offense like we see in the media time and time
[11:38] Speaker 2: and time again.
[11:40] Speaker 1: That's something that I have and I've got to put
[11:43] Speaker 1: my hand up when I was in police, I wasn't
[11:45] Speaker 1: thinking about the punishment as much. I was thinking about that, Okay,
[11:48] Speaker 1: my role as a policeman was catch a person that's
[11:50] Speaker 1: committed the crime. Then the justice system will saw that.
[11:53] Speaker 1: That didn't really give a lot of thought what happens
[11:56] Speaker 1: in prison or why people get out of prison and
[11:59] Speaker 1: I'm chasing them again to put them back in the prison.
[12:01] Speaker 1: Didn't give it a lot of consideration. But you made
[12:04] Speaker 1: the point there that most people get out of jail.
[12:07] Speaker 1: I think that's what the public, the naysayers that might
[12:11] Speaker 1: disagree with the conversation we're having here saying, well, stuff,
[12:14] Speaker 1: that they're in prison, they're in there for a reason,
[12:16] Speaker 1: they should be punished. The reality is the people that
[12:19] Speaker 1: we have in prison are going to be members of society. Again,
[12:22] Speaker 1: there's very few people in the country that have got
[12:24] Speaker 1: life sentences and they're going to finish their time in prison.
[12:28] Speaker 1: So people are going to be leaving prison and integrating
[12:32] Speaker 1: back into society. Surely, surely it has to be better
[12:35] Speaker 1: for everyone if they come out a better person from
[12:39] Speaker 1: the prison experience than when they went in.
[12:41] Speaker 2: Yeah, and the argument isn't about well, from me, the
[12:44] Speaker 2: argument isn't about whether these places should exist. I think
[12:47] Speaker 2: the argument is who we send there, and what we're
[12:50] Speaker 2: doing with them when they're there, and how we support
[12:54] Speaker 2: the whole of community once they're released. There's lots of
[12:58] Speaker 2: women who are victim survivors who don't want to go
[13:01] Speaker 2: to court, who don't want their perpetrated to go to jail.
[13:04] Speaker 2: They don't want that, but we never consider what the
[13:09] Speaker 2: victim or the survivors in any kind of scenario want,
[13:13] Speaker 2: And then when they do go to like when people
[13:16] Speaker 2: do go to prison, they're not getting the resources and
[13:18] Speaker 2: the support that they need because they're overcrowded with people
[13:21] Speaker 2: who shouldn't be there. And when I specifically talk about
[13:24] Speaker 2: you know, women, i'm talking about like driving offenses, I'm
[13:27] Speaker 2: talking about shoplifting. And I'm not saying that none of
[13:30] Speaker 2: those things are not wrong. They are a breach of
[13:34] Speaker 2: our social contract. But the point is is that they're
[13:37] Speaker 2: probably not punishable by incarceration. Like, if we're going to
[13:41] Speaker 2: incarcerate somebody for driving without a license, what are we
[13:45] Speaker 2: teaching them, really? Like, what are we doing to hold
[13:48] Speaker 2: them accountable for doing that? And then what resources are
[13:51] Speaker 2: we giving them so that they don't get out and
[13:53] Speaker 2: do it again. And for women, the impacts are far
[13:56] Speaker 2: beyond just the individual who's going to prison. It's the kids,
[14:00] Speaker 2: it's you know, the cousins, because often women are caring
[14:04] Speaker 2: across boundaries of family lines. They're caring for the whole community.
[14:08] Speaker 2: It impacts our welfare systems, it impacts our social services sector.
[14:13] Speaker 2: So when we are putting a woman in prison for
[14:15] Speaker 2: a driving events, not only does it cost our taxpayers money,
[14:18] Speaker 2: but it's also costing the other women that are in
[14:20] Speaker 2: there who now won't get a portion of their resources
[14:25] Speaker 2: because we have an additional woman in there that shouldn't
[14:27] Speaker 2: be there. So if we removed the people or the
[14:30] Speaker 2: women that you know, weren't didn't require punishment by prison,
[14:35] Speaker 2: we would have enough resources to ensure that the women
[14:38] Speaker 2: that are in there that did do you know, acts
[14:41] Speaker 2: of violence against another person, that have done some significant harm,
[14:45] Speaker 2: they would actually get the services and support they needed
[14:48] Speaker 2: to get out and not come back. And that is
[14:50] Speaker 2: the point of our justice system.
[14:53] Speaker 1: Well, it makes sense to me, and this is a
[14:57] Speaker 1: journey that I've been non sense of the cops. But
[15:00] Speaker 1: I've sat down with so many people had the opportunity
[15:03] Speaker 1: to go into maximum security prisons and really get a
[15:06] Speaker 1: sense of what goes on in there. And I think
[15:11] Speaker 1: we need to clarify because people jump in and I
[15:14] Speaker 1: dare say, nay, say as I say, But some people
[15:17] Speaker 1: need to be in prison. I haven't spoken to a
[15:19] Speaker 1: prisoner that hasn't said, yes, there needs to be some
[15:22] Speaker 1: of these people should never be let out, like they
[15:25] Speaker 1: know when there's a bad person. But that's the minority
[15:29] Speaker 1: of the people in prison.
[15:30] Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a very very small minority of people who
[15:34] Speaker 2: will probably never change their behavior because of brain chemistry,
[15:39] Speaker 2: because they have experienced so much harm as young people
[15:44] Speaker 2: or infants, or it's just their genetic makeup. And that's
[15:47] Speaker 2: a whole different conversation, right, But that is like less
[15:51] Speaker 2: than one percent, less than half a percent if I
[15:55] Speaker 2: remember correctly. Like those kinds of people are the distant dangerous.
[16:01] Speaker 1: Yeah, so society.
[16:04] Speaker 2: Talking, Yeah, and I'm not talking about like I've got kids,
[16:07] Speaker 2: I live in a community. I also want to feel safe,
[16:10] Speaker 2: you know. But the problem is is that the more
[16:13] Speaker 2: that we put the majority in prisons, the less safe
[16:18] Speaker 2: we are. Yeah, it's about how we communicate that our intuity.
[16:23] Speaker 1: But if we break it down, then you delve into
[16:26] Speaker 1: it deeply. There is logic behind what you're saying. Let's
[16:31] Speaker 1: let's just talk about you for a bit, Okay, Then
[16:36] Speaker 1: where'd you grow up?
[16:38] Speaker 2: I grew up on Bribee Islands, so it's like a
[16:40] Speaker 2: small coastal community north of Brisbane in Queensland.
[16:44] Speaker 1: Very beautiful up there, it is.
[16:45] Speaker 2: Yeah, it's exploded since I grew up there. But you know,
[16:49] Speaker 2: we grew up right in our bikes on the streets,
[16:50] Speaker 2: not coming home till the street lights came on. And
[16:53] Speaker 2: you know, we knew everyone in our street. And we
[16:55] Speaker 2: had a whole like little gang of us that kind
[16:57] Speaker 2: of hung out on the street. Not a game. We
[17:04] Speaker 2: had Bmx's band.
[17:06] Speaker 1: That's Jesus. They were a heavy crew. I remember when
[17:08] Speaker 1: I was in gang squad going after.
[17:10] Speaker 2: Them wrong years of work.
[17:12] Speaker 1: Yeah, so your childhood sounds like a happy childhood. Those
[17:17] Speaker 1: formative years.
[17:19] Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, you know, we obviously experienced some hardship.
[17:23] Speaker 2: My dad went to prison when I was eight. I'm
[17:25] Speaker 2: going to talk about it more in the book, but yeah,
[17:27] Speaker 2: we you know, we had those kinds of challenges. I
[17:31] Speaker 2: had three brothers and mom just mom and mom worked
[17:35] Speaker 2: and it was it was challenging for a few years.
[17:37] Speaker 2: But you know, in amongst all of that, my dad
[17:41] Speaker 2: coached the football team like my brother's football teams. My
[17:44] Speaker 2: mom made my dance costumes, and you know, we had
[17:48] Speaker 2: a roof over our head and food on the table,
[17:50] Speaker 2: and I went to a good high school, and you know,
[17:53] Speaker 2: overall I had a pretty straightforward childhood. Apart from that.
[17:57] Speaker 1: Well, it comes through in your book that you think,
[18:00] Speaker 1: for when your life did go off track, that you
[18:03] Speaker 1: had that family support and a lot of people don't
[18:05] Speaker 1: have that family support. And my assessment of it, you
[18:09] Speaker 1: correct me if I'm wrong, it was that family support
[18:11] Speaker 1: that actually helped save you.
[18:13] Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think too part of it is my
[18:15] Speaker 2: dad's empathy for the fact that he knew what was
[18:20] Speaker 2: going on. Yeah, and it wasn't this really unknown territory,
[18:25] Speaker 2: like he kind of knew and they stood by me
[18:28] Speaker 2: the whole time.
[18:30] Speaker 1: Okay, you're growing up. You're part of the gang, the
[18:33] Speaker 1: Burmex Crew. You outgrew the BURMX bike.
[18:37] Speaker 2: Let's not clip this down.
[18:38] Speaker 1: So justice is I didn't realize we're delving into omcgs.
[18:45] Speaker 1: I think, yeah, eighteen or whatever, and then you moved away,
[18:48] Speaker 1: went to the Gold coast got attracted to the bright
[18:51] Speaker 1: lights and lifestyle, which included the social drugs and that
[18:55] Speaker 1: type of scene. Is that where you start to head
[18:58] Speaker 1: off in a different direction. Yeah.
[18:59] Speaker 2: I moved to Brisbane City when I was eighteen, and
[19:02] Speaker 2: I started going to festivals and I was working at
[19:04] Speaker 2: a nightclub and you know, doing coke in the bathroom
[19:08] Speaker 2: at nightclubs and taking pills at festivals and just recreationally
[19:14] Speaker 2: and drinking and you know, it was not like destructive,
[19:18] Speaker 2: and I wasn't selling anything. It was just like, you know,
[19:21] Speaker 2: we just kind of knew people who had them and
[19:25] Speaker 2: never like like never a criminality element. It was just
[19:28] Speaker 2: kind of the scene in two thousand and eight. Yeah,
[19:32] Speaker 2: and then yeah, they kind of opened I guess my
[19:35] Speaker 2: appetite for risk increased and also desensitized to like other
[19:41] Speaker 2: forms of drugs, and so yeah, by the time I
[19:44] Speaker 2: was nineteen, I was smoking ice every day. Well back
[19:47] Speaker 2: then actually it was speed. And then they brought in
[19:50] Speaker 2: the laws about the cidoephadron in the cold and flu tablets,
[19:54] Speaker 2: and then they instead of cooking it locally, they started
[19:59] Speaker 2: importing our and that's how we have ice epidemic instead
[20:02] Speaker 2: of the speed.
[20:04] Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, Yeah, I see the effect of ice and
[20:08] Speaker 1: it's such a devastating that drug. And spoken to a
[20:11] Speaker 1: lot of people, and even when I was in the police,
[20:13] Speaker 1: I was seeing the effects of ice could have on people.
[20:17] Speaker 1: I understand. Yeah, you've moved into the city, You're enjoying
[20:22] Speaker 1: the life, drugs, party, seeing it all seems harmless, fun
[20:26] Speaker 1: and yeah, you take a few risks. Did you at
[20:29] Speaker 1: any point see that. Was there any red flags to
[20:32] Speaker 1: you personally that this is heading in the wrong direction?
[20:35] Speaker 1: Did you start to think I'm enjoying this too much
[20:38] Speaker 1: or not functioning when you weren't putting the drugs in
[20:42] Speaker 1: your system.
[20:42] Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a good question. It's hard to know because
[20:45] Speaker 2: it's been such a long time and like so much
[20:48] Speaker 2: has happened, it's really hard for me to kind of
[20:51] Speaker 2: know if I did think, well, this isn't good. I
[20:55] Speaker 2: don't ever remember going I need to stop doing this.
[20:58] Speaker 2: I think for me, there was no consequence yet. Yeah,
[21:03] Speaker 2: I hadn't lost anything. I also hadn't been harmed yet.
[21:06] Speaker 1: When I maintaining a job. On the surface, you were functioning.
[21:09] Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, I worked at the nightclubs that I partied at,
[21:11] Speaker 2: and so it was kind of Yeah, I was funk.
[21:13] Speaker 2: I was going to university, you know, maintaining relationship with
[21:17] Speaker 2: my family, my friends, and you know, coke and pills
[21:21] Speaker 2: didn't really seem to impact that for me at that point,
[21:25] Speaker 2: but it escalated, and when it escalated, I did start
[21:28] Speaker 2: to see consequence. And when I started to smoke speed,
[21:33] Speaker 2: then I lost friendships and then I lost my job.
[21:37] Speaker 1: Okay, it talked us through that, how the friendships fell
[21:41] Speaker 1: apart and the job.
[21:42] Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, when I was using just the recreational drugs,
[21:46] Speaker 2: broke up with my boyfriend and kind of spiraled out
[21:50] Speaker 2: of control and I just stopped kind of showing up.
[21:55] Speaker 1: You know.
[21:55] Speaker 2: For my friends, I like would disappear for weeks on end,
[21:59] Speaker 2: you know, just like partying absolutely every day, and they
[22:03] Speaker 2: just wanted nothing to do with me, because that wasn't
[22:06] Speaker 2: how we were brought up, you know, we were it
[22:08] Speaker 2: was too hectic for them. They're going this, we don't
[22:11] Speaker 2: like this. So, you know, I think for me, I
[22:14] Speaker 2: found a lot of value in my own self worth
[22:17] Speaker 2: in other people and how they saw me and how
[22:20] Speaker 2: I was valued by them. And I was also very
[22:24] Speaker 2: avoidant in conflict, so because I didn't have the language
[22:27] Speaker 2: skills to articulate how I was feeling or what I
[22:31] Speaker 2: was doing or why I was doing it, and so
[22:34] Speaker 2: I would just like cut people off. And so I
[22:37] Speaker 2: just basically cut everyone out when the speed entered my life.
[22:41] Speaker 1: Did that steer towards the people that were into it
[22:44] Speaker 1: heavier than your friends group?
[22:46] Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean because those people were going to let
[22:48] Speaker 2: me do the things and not confront me about my behavior,
[22:52] Speaker 2: so that my old friends I cut them, and new
[22:56] Speaker 2: friends I went to. So yeah, it was like it was,
[23:02] Speaker 2: you know, I think things happen, you know, and yeah,
[23:05] Speaker 2: I don't think I ever thought, oh this isn't good
[23:08] Speaker 2: because I didn't have that reflective capacity. I didn't have
[23:12] Speaker 2: the ability to look at myself. I just wanted to
[23:15] Speaker 2: avoid conflict. It was definitely avoidant, like attachment style, because
[23:20] Speaker 2: I just didn't have the language. I just didn't know
[23:22] Speaker 2: how to say, holy shit, i'm hurting. I don't know
[23:25] Speaker 2: how to get out of this.
[23:26] Speaker 1: Okay, didn't have the capacity to put your hand up.
[23:29] Speaker 1: What were you studying at UNI?
[23:31] Speaker 2: Bachelor of Business?
[23:31] Speaker 1: Because you're smart? You were smart, You're still smart.
[23:35] Speaker 2: You're not as smart as I used to be. A
[23:37] Speaker 2: brain tells missing.
[23:38] Speaker 1: It always comes to the cost somewhere. So you're studying,
[23:42] Speaker 1: you had pretty much you had your life in front
[23:44] Speaker 1: of you. You were set up for heading in the
[23:47] Speaker 1: in the right direction. Yeah, employment, you said, started to
[23:51] Speaker 1: become unreliable. Once you've hit the sort of regular usage
[23:55] Speaker 1: of speed or ice, you don't really become a functioning
[24:00] Speaker 1: function Like I've seen functioning people that are using a
[24:04] Speaker 1: lot of recreational drugs. But once you start to get
[24:07] Speaker 1: my observation of these, once ice comes in the play,
[24:10] Speaker 1: it's only a matter of time before it spirals out
[24:12] Speaker 1: of control.
[24:13] Speaker 2: Yeah, And at the start, I fully spiraled, so like
[24:16] Speaker 2: lost all and I could not hold a job anywhere.
[24:20] Speaker 2: So like clubs just stopped like nightclubs because I was partend,
[24:23] Speaker 2: I stopped hiring up. I wouldn't turn up, would want
[24:26] Speaker 2: to leave early because I need to go get on
[24:28] Speaker 2: or I've got you know, just like totally didn't care
[24:30] Speaker 2: about that stuff. So I stopped working for a while.
[24:33] Speaker 2: But I did pick up work again when I started
[24:37] Speaker 2: to become a more functional drug user, because I wasn't
[24:41] Speaker 2: getting high anymore. After a few years, the high's gone
[24:44] Speaker 2: and the staying up for days on end is gone,
[24:47] Speaker 2: and so that party sort of thing. It becomes more
[24:51] Speaker 2: of an every day you're using it to wake up
[24:53] Speaker 2: in the morning, to feel normal during the day, and
[24:56] Speaker 2: it all wears off, and so I could start to
[24:58] Speaker 2: function at work. So I got fairly good jobs. You know.
[25:01] Speaker 2: I was working for local government. At one point, I
[25:04] Speaker 2: was working for banks, So yeah, I had I had
[25:06] Speaker 2: quite good jobs and I could shop every day. But
[25:10] Speaker 2: I was also smoking ice in the toilets. Yeah, so
[25:13] Speaker 2: and then it would spiral out of control and I'd
[25:15] Speaker 2: lose that job.
[25:15] Speaker 1: To me, it seems like a stressful life you're living.
[25:19] Speaker 1: You're living two lives. Yeah, yeah, presenting and then sneaking
[25:22] Speaker 1: to the toilet that do do some ice.
[25:24] Speaker 2: Yeah, but almost. I mean sometimes it we get too much,
[25:27] Speaker 2: but almost a thrill in the moment, like I can
[25:29] Speaker 2: get away with this.
[25:30] Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, So we're seeing the progression because I just
[25:34] Speaker 1: want to And I think this is a cautionary tale
[25:37] Speaker 1: for people too, because there's so many people that no,
[25:39] Speaker 1: I'm fine with drugs. It's not going to get me.
[25:42] Speaker 1: I can step away from it when I need, but eventually,
[25:45] Speaker 1: by the time it gets hold of you, it's too late.
[25:49] Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think what the difference is we have
[25:51] Speaker 2: to look at the reasons why people are using drugs.
[25:53] Speaker 2: And for me, it was it become that scene, become
[25:55] Speaker 2: my whole identity. And it also was everything that I
[25:59] Speaker 2: thought I would worth in this world was who I
[26:02] Speaker 2: showed up as in that scene.
[26:05] Speaker 1: So you've got respect in that scene for being the
[26:07] Speaker 1: party girl, and yeah, I for that.
[26:10] Speaker 2: Yeah, And so then that's my entire self worth. So
[26:14] Speaker 2: you know, when I talk about my own sort of
[26:17] Speaker 2: journey with drugs is because I was using them as
[26:21] Speaker 2: a way to make the inside of myself feel better.
[26:25] Speaker 2: But you know, other people can use here and there
[26:27] Speaker 2: and it doesn't make their life spiral out of control.
[26:29] Speaker 2: There could be an argument made that eventually it will
[26:32] Speaker 2: spiral out of control because often what you're doing is
[26:35] Speaker 2: trying to medicate or something called make yourself feel better
[26:37] Speaker 2: in some way. But it's about the timeline. I think
[26:40] Speaker 2: the timeline is always different.
[26:41] Speaker 1: Right at what point in time did you realize, hey,
[26:45] Speaker 1: I've got the problem here? Was there enough self reflection
[26:48] Speaker 1: before before it unraveled completely? Did you start to realize, hey, fuck,
[26:54] Speaker 1: I'm in trouble.
[26:55] Speaker 2: Here Many times and I would fold it all down,
[26:58] Speaker 2: move back to my parents, and try. Oh you know,
[27:02] Speaker 2: I'd try and get clean. It was also back in
[27:05] Speaker 2: the days before we kind of had this understanding about like,
[27:09] Speaker 2: you know, your regulation of your nervous system or like
[27:11] Speaker 2: talking about things or what the impacts of experiences on
[27:16] Speaker 2: the way that you show up in the world. Like
[27:17] Speaker 2: we didn't have that language back then. I certainly didn't,
[27:21] Speaker 2: and I had absolutely no inkling of it in the
[27:23] Speaker 2: world around me. So I would go back to my parents.
[27:27] Speaker 2: I would just try and stay off drugs. I would
[27:30] Speaker 2: get a job, some shitty job that I fucking hated,
[27:32] Speaker 2: and you know, it did last sometimes it did the
[27:34] Speaker 2: last two weeks before I went I hate this, I'm
[27:37] Speaker 2: not doing this. I'm going back to that. And then
[27:40] Speaker 2: other times it'd be like a month or two. Yeah,
[27:43] Speaker 2: And I just never could never get it together because
[27:46] Speaker 2: I didn't have the skills to know, Okay, my nervous
[27:51] Speaker 2: system doesn't feel like I'm safe because there's no chaos.
[27:56] Speaker 2: So then I would go back, and then the experiences
[27:59] Speaker 2: that I had while using just like compounded that I
[28:03] Speaker 2: need to stop, Like you know, sexual assault and violence
[28:08] Speaker 2: and those kinds of experiences I always terrified me, and
[28:12] Speaker 2: I tried to get away, and I just didn't have
[28:15] Speaker 2: the skills to stay away.
[28:17] Speaker 1: Was that the violence, sexual assaults and violence? Was that
[28:20] Speaker 1: in relationship contexts?
[28:22] Speaker 2: Yeah? Yes, not stranger violence. People in the scene, guys
[28:28] Speaker 2: that I knew, some women. Yeah, there was lots of
[28:32] Speaker 2: lots of that stuff that went on.
[28:34] Speaker 1: So how did you get your drugs? How did you
[28:36] Speaker 1: afford it? What we're doing to at the start?
[28:39] Speaker 2: I just knew people who had them, and so like
[28:42] Speaker 2: there would just be one person who had lots, and
[28:45] Speaker 2: I hung around with guys that you know, got caught
[28:48] Speaker 2: up in like the biggest drug bust at the time,
[28:50] Speaker 2: so they just had copious amounts of drugs. It's just
[28:54] Speaker 2: a free for all. So there wasn't kind of any
[28:58] Speaker 2: criminality on my side going on, but was also always
[29:01] Speaker 2: like crime adjacent. I would say, like's I did not
[29:07] Speaker 2: commit that defense, I was crime adjacent. It was crime
[29:10] Speaker 2: adjacent that would have that?
[29:11] Speaker 1: Would it confused me when on the cops if someone
[29:14] Speaker 1: said no, I'm not admitting to it. I was just
[29:15] Speaker 1: crime adjacent. Okay, it's a.
[29:18] Speaker 2: Good it's a good use of language there.
[29:20] Speaker 1: Yeah, I was defense for everyone to go in the court.
[29:23] Speaker 2: I'm just crime adjacent. Yeah, so I'm sure there's other
[29:27] Speaker 2: words that I could have, like other words that you use.
[29:30] Speaker 2: You know, I saw what was going on, but I
[29:32] Speaker 2: was not a part of it. So that's how I
[29:35] Speaker 2: got it in the start. And then you know, intimate
[29:37] Speaker 2: relationships like men. My boyfriend's pretty much always a dealer,
[29:42] Speaker 2: So that was how I got my drugs in. And
[29:45] Speaker 2: then once I had sort of you know, it spiraled
[29:49] Speaker 2: out of control for the last time and I experienced
[29:52] Speaker 2: like the lowest kind of point of my drug using,
[29:57] Speaker 2: I just went, what am I go?
[30:00] Speaker 1: I do? Now?
[30:00] Speaker 2: You know, this is kind of the start of the end.
[30:04] Speaker 2: And I was sitting in my car, just like faces
[30:09] Speaker 2: all beaten.
[30:10] Speaker 1: Up and from domestic violence.
[30:13] Speaker 2: Yeah, and I'm in my car. It's unregistered, I've got
[30:16] Speaker 2: no license, it's got like no fuel, I don't have
[30:19] Speaker 2: a phone. I'm like, what am I going to do?
[30:24] Speaker 2: And I think I don't know if it was a
[30:27] Speaker 2: conscious decision, but I knew how to make money fast,
[30:30] Speaker 2: and so I started selling drugs.
[30:32] Speaker 1: Okay, well we'll talk talk about that, but let's just
[30:34] Speaker 1: delve into your relationships a bit. And that situation where
[30:38] Speaker 1: you found yourself alone in the car. I think you
[30:41] Speaker 1: addressed it in your book. It seems to be a cycle.
[30:45] Speaker 1: I hear it so often. I know there's an attraction
[30:48] Speaker 1: to the wild side, but quite often you know, the
[30:52] Speaker 1: protective boyfriend that's looking after you. I hear it so often.
[30:57] Speaker 1: Have you got a view on that, because I I'm
[31:00] Speaker 1: trying to choose my words carefully here, but I hear
[31:04] Speaker 1: it so often that it's almost like the moment I
[31:06] Speaker 1: see someone going out with the so called cool bad guy,
[31:11] Speaker 1: I'm thinking, wait, because he's going to be a drop kick.
[31:15] Speaker 1: I'm not. That's my view on it.
[31:17] Speaker 2: Yeah, and you're probably right, you know. For me, like
[31:21] Speaker 2: I can only speak for my experience, my appetite for
[31:24] Speaker 2: risk was huge. I mean, I'm like smoking ice. I'm
[31:29] Speaker 2: also I'm also seeking protection because I've experienced harm and
[31:37] Speaker 2: so someone that as a protector is going to make
[31:42] Speaker 2: me feel safe. But also the type of relationships that
[31:46] Speaker 2: I would have with this man was like intense. It
[31:48] Speaker 2: was wild, it was you know, passionate, and it was
[31:53] Speaker 2: fun and it escalates very fast into control, fireviolence and assault.
[32:04] Speaker 2: And it's not that I'm attracted to the violence, but
[32:07] Speaker 2: it's that for me, I always thought I'm good enough
[32:11] Speaker 2: that he'll change, He'll love me enough that he wouldn't
[32:16] Speaker 2: do that to me. And I was with a guy
[32:17] Speaker 2: who everyone told me he is a psycho, do not
[32:22] Speaker 2: get with him. And he said to me himself like,
[32:25] Speaker 2: I'm not a good guy, and I was like, I'm
[32:29] Speaker 2: not bad, Like why would you do that to me?
[32:32] Speaker 2: I'm not a bad person. I'm not going to make
[32:34] Speaker 2: you violent because you'll love me enough. So I never
[32:39] Speaker 2: think it's like women go, I'm attracted to the violence.
[32:42] Speaker 2: It's kind of I'm attracted to the intensity of this relationship,
[32:45] Speaker 2: and often that can escalate into violence. And don't get
[32:49] Speaker 2: me wrong. Look sometimes I gave as good as I got,
[32:53] Speaker 2: and it definitely not in the start. I wasn't a
[32:56] Speaker 2: violent person. But after time you learn how to protect yourself.
[33:00] Speaker 1: I suppose in a toxic relationship that can become you
[33:04] Speaker 1: get desensitized to it. Yeah, And if you're both using,
[33:08] Speaker 1: you're probably not looking at the life through the clearest lens.
[33:12] Speaker 2: No, And there's also the paranoia. There's also the heightened
[33:16] Speaker 2: you know, everything's heightened. And also you're never like regulated
[33:21] Speaker 2: like this with your emotions. You're like up and then
[33:23] Speaker 2: you're down, and then you're like I love you so much,
[33:26] Speaker 2: and then it's like I fucking hate you. I want
[33:28] Speaker 2: to kill you.
[33:30] Speaker 1: I shouldn't be laughing. Better recipe for disare it is?
[33:33] Speaker 2: It is, and no one. We're all out here hurt people,
[33:36] Speaker 2: just like in this chaos of this world. And then
[33:40] Speaker 2: there's also all of the other shit that goes around it,
[33:42] Speaker 2: you know, the cheating and the and you're out all
[33:46] Speaker 2: night and the distrust and all of those things, and
[33:49] Speaker 2: that just heightens the emotions. And certainly for me, I
[33:52] Speaker 2: didn't start off being a violent person or even like
[33:57] Speaker 2: you know, going down that road, but you know, by
[34:00] Speaker 2: the end, I was just as I was, just as
[34:03] Speaker 2: harmful as I was hurt.
[34:05] Speaker 1: Yeah, well you make sense in what you're saying. That's
[34:08] Speaker 1: a sort of honest assessment of what you went through
[34:12] Speaker 1: when you said the probably the worst part what happened
[34:16] Speaker 1: there where you found yourself in the car without the phone, And.
[34:19] Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it wasn't the worst violence that I'd
[34:21] Speaker 2: ever experienced, but it's definitely the turning point. And I
[34:25] Speaker 2: look at my life as kind of you know, left
[34:27] Speaker 2: or right choices. Like I said in the National Press Club,
[34:30] Speaker 2: it was like this was my left or right choice,
[34:32] Speaker 2: and at that point I chose the wrong way, you know.
[34:35] Speaker 2: I instead of going going to a phone box, calling mom,
[34:40] Speaker 2: packing it down and just kind of working it out,
[34:43] Speaker 2: I just drove drove to my like a dealer's house
[34:48] Speaker 2: that I knew, and was like, can you kick me up?
[34:51] Speaker 1: And as in getting the.
[34:55] Speaker 2: Upfront? Am I bring the cash back? Yeah? And he
[34:59] Speaker 2: was kind of like no, and I was like, well,
[35:04] Speaker 2: I need something. So it was like half of what
[35:06] Speaker 2: I asked for negotiating, and then I started from there.
[35:11] Speaker 1: How do you well, I'll ask it in two parts,
[35:14] Speaker 1: how did you feel at the time when you were
[35:16] Speaker 1: selling drugs and how do you feel now looking back
[35:20] Speaker 1: the fact that you're selling drugs.
[35:23] Speaker 2: At the time, I felt like before I started selling drugs,
[35:27] Speaker 2: I had no power. I had no control over my life,
[35:30] Speaker 2: and I had no I had no like self worth
[35:33] Speaker 2: at that point in my life. Again, and when I
[35:37] Speaker 2: was selling drugs, I had I had control. I had
[35:40] Speaker 2: the power back for the first time in a really
[35:43] Speaker 2: long time. I had power back in my life and choice,
[35:46] Speaker 2: and it felt exciting and I felt confident, and I
[35:51] Speaker 2: felt like I knew what I was doing because I'd
[35:53] Speaker 2: always been crime adjacent so I.
[35:54] Speaker 1: Already new legal terminology.
[35:58] Speaker 2: Don't tell the goops that way. Yeah, Like I had
[36:01] Speaker 2: always seen how it's done, and you know, the type
[36:05] Speaker 2: of personality that I am, it was almost like second
[36:10] Speaker 2: nature to me and never felt I never it never
[36:13] Speaker 2: felt wrong, And I never felt like I was doing
[36:16] Speaker 2: anything wrong because it wasn't. I wasn't going rocking up
[36:19] Speaker 2: and too random people's door steps, going to want to
[36:21] Speaker 2: buy some drugs. People come to me, you're asking for this.
[36:24] Speaker 1: See yourself as a supplier to people that we're going
[36:28] Speaker 1: to get the Yeah, that's it.
[36:32] Speaker 2: I'm not kind of going out there pushing it, pushing it,
[36:36] Speaker 2: pushing it. It was people are asking for it, I've
[36:39] Speaker 2: got it, and they're using it. Anyways, it was never
[36:44] Speaker 2: this it felt bad. It never felt wrong. I mean,
[36:48] Speaker 2: obviously I knew it was a crime because I'm not
[36:51] Speaker 2: out there, you know, telling the cops I'm doing it.
[36:53] Speaker 2: But I knew it was a crime, but it never
[36:56] Speaker 2: felt wrong. And I think that's kind of a difference.
[36:58] Speaker 1: Okay, how does it Talia circa Twenty twenty six feel
[37:02] Speaker 1: about that now?
[37:03] Speaker 2: Looking look, I think she only knew what she knew.
[37:07] Speaker 2: I can't. I don't regret things in my life because
[37:11] Speaker 2: ultimately they made me who I am and the lessons
[37:13] Speaker 2: that I have learned today. And I've also served my
[37:16] Speaker 2: time and being punished and being held accountable and repaired
[37:21] Speaker 2: the harm, but tried to do my best to repair
[37:23] Speaker 2: the harm that I caused communities while I was doing it.
[37:26] Speaker 2: So like the Tylia today goes that Tylier, I need
[37:31] Speaker 2: to care and love for her because she didn't know
[37:34] Speaker 2: any better and she did her best to like survive.
[37:38] Speaker 2: And my intentions weren't ever to hurt people, but unfortunately,
[37:43] Speaker 2: you know, that's part and parcel, and you know, I
[37:47] Speaker 2: don't intend to hurt people now, but I definitely could.
[37:49] Speaker 2: And it's the same kind of concept. It's not like
[37:52] Speaker 2: you're intending to harm, you know, And I've done my
[37:55] Speaker 2: time for it. So yeah, I feel like and it's
[37:59] Speaker 2: part of my story now as part of why I
[38:02] Speaker 2: do what I do, and it also lends me credibility
[38:05] Speaker 2: to talk about it. And yeah, like, obviously the harm
[38:10] Speaker 2: that's caused in community because of ice is horrific and
[38:15] Speaker 2: people you know, have lost lots because of it, and
[38:20] Speaker 2: probably no more so than the people who have used it.
[38:23] Speaker 1: Okay, now, I appreciate your honesty there and the runess
[38:26] Speaker 1: of it. And I do understand what you're saying. It's
[38:29] Speaker 1: hard to judge yourself on what was impacting on your
[38:32] Speaker 1: decision making back in those times, looking back from where
[38:36] Speaker 1: you are now.
[38:38] Speaker 2: And I've been judged, yeah, and look, the mechanisms of
[38:42] Speaker 2: law got me and I stood in front of a
[38:45] Speaker 2: Supreme Court judge and they handed down their sentence, and
[38:47] Speaker 2: I took accountability. I played guilty to all of my offenses,
[38:50] Speaker 2: even the ones that I wasn't technically guilty for, and
[38:54] Speaker 2: copped it on the chin. Did my time got out?
[38:56] Speaker 1: And it's important too if we're me and the Okay,
[39:00] Speaker 1: there's rules is things that as society we're going to
[39:04] Speaker 1: abide by, these punishments for committing certain offenses. We've got
[39:08] Speaker 1: to understand that someone served their punishment in the time
[39:13] Speaker 1: in jail or whatever. It is a fine, that society's
[39:16] Speaker 1: way of bringing him into line, and that they have
[39:19] Speaker 1: paid the price for it. Okay. I love these parts
[39:23] Speaker 1: of the stories. When the cops caught you, bloody cops,
[39:29] Speaker 1: here they go again. What happened? How did it all unravel?
[39:34] Speaker 2: So I was in I was living on the Gold Coast.
[39:37] Speaker 2: I was in Brisbane for the night and I was
[39:39] Speaker 2: driving back sort of like a back road from kind
[39:42] Speaker 2: of East Brisbane to the Gold Coast through the hinterland,
[39:47] Speaker 2: and they had a traffic stop and like I used
[39:50] Speaker 2: to always cruise around with gear on me and I
[39:53] Speaker 2: was pretty messy by this point in time, and they
[39:56] Speaker 2: had the road was stopped, and I was like, that's
[40:00] Speaker 2: so weird. A car I found it later car had
[40:03] Speaker 2: gone off the ditch and they're trying to pull it out.
[40:04] Speaker 2: So they stopped traffic both ways, and so I'm like
[40:07] Speaker 2: third back. The car in front of me bangs a
[40:10] Speaker 2: U turn and goes I'm not waiting and they bang
[40:12] Speaker 2: a U turn and like I'm kind of pull up
[40:14] Speaker 2: second in line, and I can see the cop can
[40:16] Speaker 2: see me. I can see the cop. He's not far away,
[40:19] Speaker 2: but he's stopping traffic for the tow truck. It's not
[40:22] Speaker 2: for me. And I grab the ounce that's kind of
[40:25] Speaker 2: sitting here in the cup holder, and I put it
[40:28] Speaker 2: down my pants and sort of just like sit it,
[40:31] Speaker 2: you know, inside the hem of my pants, and I'm
[40:34] Speaker 2: looking around, trying not to be obvious, like looking around,
[40:37] Speaker 2: going is there anything else is there a pipe? Like
[40:39] Speaker 2: is there?
[40:40] Speaker 1: You know?
[40:41] Speaker 2: Scalees like what have I got? Holy shit? Just so
[40:45] Speaker 2: that when I drive past him, he's not going to
[40:46] Speaker 2: look in the window and see shit. So I'm just
[40:49] Speaker 2: kind of putting it out of sight. And then yeah,
[40:52] Speaker 2: I do that. Sorry, I do that. And then that
[40:54] Speaker 2: car does a U turn and I kind of drive
[40:56] Speaker 2: up second and I think about it for a couple
[40:58] Speaker 2: of seconds, and I go, now, fuck it, I'm doing
[41:01] Speaker 2: the U turn too. And I go out to do
[41:03] Speaker 2: the U turn and the cop kind of steps towards
[41:06] Speaker 2: me and goes, what do you think you're doing? And
[41:07] Speaker 2: I was like, what did you? You didn't stop him?
[41:11] Speaker 2: And he goes pull over here, And you know, in
[41:14] Speaker 2: that moment, you've got you've got a choice to make.
[41:17] Speaker 2: He's not in a car, and some people aren't going
[41:21] Speaker 2: to like what I have to say, but you just
[41:23] Speaker 2: go you don't stop. That's dumb because an evade police
[41:29] Speaker 2: is a fuck all sentence really compared to an outs
[41:33] Speaker 2: of vice. So if they catch you at all, I
[41:36] Speaker 2: mean a higher car, like, prove it was me sort of.
[41:38] Speaker 2: That's the mentality you have at the time. Yeah, yeah,
[41:41] Speaker 2: So I have those thoughts and I and I go, okay,
[41:45] Speaker 2: like an idiot, and I pull over because.
[41:48] Speaker 1: I'm trying to play it cool well.
[41:51] Speaker 2: And also I was never the type of person that
[41:54] Speaker 2: is like, fuck the police. My grandfather was a police officer.
[41:57] Speaker 2: So I have all of those intersecting factors coming into
[42:02] Speaker 2: every decision I make. You know, I'm very I've been
[42:04] Speaker 2: in raids before and the police are like, you're just
[42:06] Speaker 2: so polite. Yeah, Like you're just so polite? What are
[42:11] Speaker 2: you doing here, Taralie. You're like, this is not for you.
[42:13] Speaker 2: You know. They're always saying those things to me, and
[42:16] Speaker 2: you know, that's kind of how I just treat people,
[42:19] Speaker 2: but also the police. And so I pull over, you know,
[42:22] Speaker 2: like I'm told to. And he goes to his car,
[42:25] Speaker 2: which is a bit further down. He comes back and
[42:28] Speaker 2: he's got something in his hand and it's a breathalys
[42:30] Speaker 2: and a drug test. I don't drink because I'm an
[42:33] Speaker 2: ice addict, and that's just not on yeah, radar. And
[42:38] Speaker 2: I do the breath test and it passes, and I
[42:41] Speaker 2: do the drug test and he waits and he goes,
[42:45] Speaker 2: you fail the drug test, get out of the car,
[42:48] Speaker 2: and at this point I know I'm stuffed I'm fucked. Yeah,
[42:53] Speaker 2: So they get me out of the car. He searches
[42:56] Speaker 2: the car. He finds a bag in my wallet and
[43:00] Speaker 2: it comes over and he says, I found about gear
[43:03] Speaker 2: and your wallet, and I go, I don't know whose
[43:06] Speaker 2: that is. I don't do drugs. I meanwhile, I've just
[43:08] Speaker 2: got positive drug test anounced down my pants. But you're
[43:13] Speaker 2: just you're in the lie right, you deny it, You go,
[43:15] Speaker 2: that's not mine. He might give me a warning. He
[43:18] Speaker 2: might just like give me a warning. They call out
[43:20] Speaker 2: another crew with a female and they say, you're in
[43:24] Speaker 2: the back of the car, will get You're going to
[43:25] Speaker 2: do a strip search back at the station and we'll
[43:28] Speaker 2: charge you with what we found. And we go back
[43:32] Speaker 2: to the station. I go into the room with her
[43:33] Speaker 2: and I just pull out the drugs from down my pants.
[43:36] Speaker 2: And it's not just one bag, because there's so many
[43:39] Speaker 2: other things that there's a pipe, and there's this, and
[43:41] Speaker 2: there's and so I've just pulled out all this paraphernalia
[43:43] Speaker 2: onto the bench and she she just looked at me like,
[43:49] Speaker 2: this isn't good for you. This isn't going to be
[43:52] Speaker 2: good for you. And I'm sitting in the watchhouse. They
[43:55] Speaker 2: processed me into the watchouse. It's not the first time
[43:57] Speaker 2: I've been in a watchhouse, but only have a temporarily,
[44:00] Speaker 2: you know, just kind of They don't put you in
[44:02] Speaker 2: the cells the process you. They just put you on
[44:05] Speaker 2: like a holding bit and then they give you watchhouse
[44:07] Speaker 2: bail or they just release you because they couldn't charge
[44:11] Speaker 2: you with anything. But this is the first time they
[44:13] Speaker 2: processed me into a watchhouse. And yeah, when I was
[44:16] Speaker 2: sitting in that watchhouse, they come to the gate and
[44:21] Speaker 2: they go, we raided the unit. I thought, Fuck, I'm
[44:27] Speaker 2: never getting out of here. I'm never getting out. They
[44:30] Speaker 2: found lists and fairer and shit that wasn't mine, but
[44:35] Speaker 2: no one else is in the unit, so it is mine,
[44:37] Speaker 2: and just so much stuff And because I wasn't never
[44:41] Speaker 2: cared for, and I never thought that they'd raid my unit,
[44:44] Speaker 2: Like how the hell did they find it? You know, like,
[44:47] Speaker 2: holy shit, that's some good police work credits. Yeah, like geez,
[44:53] Speaker 2: you guys really went on this one. So yeah, so
[44:58] Speaker 2: then they charged me with all this stuff.
[45:00] Speaker 1: What were the charges you got?
[45:02] Speaker 2: The charges I got? Then we're not the charges are
[45:04] Speaker 2: sentenced for because there's obviously like a lot of back
[45:08] Speaker 2: and forth between lawyers and stuff that goes on. But
[45:10] Speaker 2: I got charged with commercial supply, very serious possession of
[45:18] Speaker 2: a whole shipload of things. I had someone else's passport,
[45:22] Speaker 2: which was like, you know, possession of it was like
[45:25] Speaker 2: a federal offense, like a lot.
[45:27] Speaker 1: It doesn't look good when you're coupled with all your
[45:29] Speaker 1: other offense.
[45:30] Speaker 2: Yeah, it was like, yeah, it was wild and so
[45:34] Speaker 2: I'll failing to unlock a mobile device and all of
[45:38] Speaker 2: these things. So he charged me with the whole heap
[45:40] Speaker 2: of stuff and then I spend like the weekend in
[45:43] Speaker 2: the watchhouse the magistrate. I see the magistrate on the
[45:46] Speaker 2: Tuesday because they got me on the Friday, and the
[45:50] Speaker 2: magistrate gives me a no conditions.
[45:54] Speaker 1: I and I'll ask you this. We'll obviously talk about it,
[45:59] Speaker 1: but I know in your book and when I've heard
[46:01] Speaker 1: you talk that you're almost surprised and indignant that they
[46:04] Speaker 1: didn't give you conditions because it just they.
[46:08] Speaker 2: Dropped me back off at the car that they picked
[46:09] Speaker 2: me up from, and I just jumped back in it
[46:11] Speaker 2: and drove straight to my dealer's house and went I
[46:14] Speaker 2: just got an the fucking watchhouse.
[46:15] Speaker 1: Yeah, and you is that when you adopted this like
[46:19] Speaker 1: it's basically fuck it. I'm in trouble, I'm out, I
[46:24] Speaker 1: haven't got bail conditions. And I think there was a
[46:27] Speaker 1: quator saw from an article in my life to the ground.
[46:30] Speaker 1: I just set my life on fire. I was been
[46:32] Speaker 1: really destructive taking cocktails of drugs. So after you've been arrested,
[46:38] Speaker 1: so this potentially was the warning warning sign for you.
[46:42] Speaker 1: You've spent a couple of days in the watchhouse, which
[46:44] Speaker 1: is an experience within itself, and then you've been released.
[46:49] Speaker 1: You knew these matters are going to come up in court,
[46:53] Speaker 1: but you adopted the attitude, wells, let's have fun before before.
[46:57] Speaker 2: Yeah, well, before this my life I had a clean
[47:01] Speaker 2: slate and my life could be whatever I chose.
[47:05] Speaker 1: It to be, okay, so you could steer it back
[47:07] Speaker 1: into the straight normal life without them.
[47:10] Speaker 2: I was just getting some cash so that I could
[47:12] Speaker 2: get my shit together and get back on track, and
[47:16] Speaker 2: kind of got carried away with it and it become
[47:19] Speaker 2: my identity. But before I got charged with all that stuff,
[47:22] Speaker 2: I wasn't a crim like the copsit and know me.
[47:26] Speaker 2: I was free to kind of stop at any time.
[47:29] Speaker 2: But after they charged me, my lawyer's going, you're going
[47:33] Speaker 2: to prison, and I was like, well, let's give it
[47:36] Speaker 2: a good crack then, like fuck it. I was like,
[47:41] Speaker 2: what else is my life going to be now, I'm
[47:43] Speaker 2: going to go to jail, and that like that sentence
[47:46] Speaker 2: stays in your head, like you're going to prison anyways,
[47:48] Speaker 2: so may as well just do whatever you're doing now
[47:50] Speaker 2: until you go to prison and then work it out,
[47:53] Speaker 2: you know.
[47:54] Speaker 1: So what chaos did you get up to then?
[47:56] Speaker 2: So before that, I wasn't really like taking Fanner like
[48:00] Speaker 2: fantasy or g or whatever it is people call it. Now,
[48:03] Speaker 2: I don't know, I'm too old. I've been out of
[48:07] Speaker 2: it for a while. So I was taking that like
[48:11] Speaker 2: on the regular, and I didn't use it before. I'm
[48:14] Speaker 2: just like smoking as much gear as I could get
[48:18] Speaker 2: my hands on, driving stolen.
[48:20] Speaker 3: Cars allegedly, like you know, just crazy shit, just stupid staff,
[48:27] Speaker 3: like just really reckless, didn't care about my life.
[48:31] Speaker 2: Silly stuff like hanging out with people who are on
[48:33] Speaker 2: the run. Yeah, just shitty.
[48:38] Speaker 1: I'm just trying to understand the psychology of it. But
[48:41] Speaker 1: it's you're at the point, up until that point your
[48:44] Speaker 1: life could have you could have steered it back in
[48:46] Speaker 1: a different direction. You could have gone and clean slate,
[48:50] Speaker 1: and that was an experience. Lucky I escape that. But
[48:53] Speaker 1: once you were put all the charges were on, and
[48:55] Speaker 1: you knew, and the advice you had given from your
[48:58] Speaker 1: solicitor that you're likely going to jail, you just thought,
[49:02] Speaker 1: fuck it, Oh i'll do whether, I'll just have some fun.
[49:05] Speaker 1: I'm now criminal. I might as well live like a criminal.
[49:08] Speaker 1: Is that the set?
[49:09] Speaker 2: Yeah, part of it, And part of it is also
[49:11] Speaker 2: I enveloped the entire identity of this as being me now,
[49:15] Speaker 2: like I went, this gives me a bit of street cred,
[49:19] Speaker 2: you know, I'm cool now, or like gives me a
[49:22] Speaker 2: bit of authority because like you know, I'm going to
[49:25] Speaker 2: I'm going to prison now, like I've got these charges.
[49:28] Speaker 2: Like kind of it's a weird psychology to kind of
[49:32] Speaker 2: think about, but it almost was like a solidifying that
[49:37] Speaker 2: was going to be my path now, like this was
[49:41] Speaker 2: who I was, because like that judge could have you know,
[49:44] Speaker 2: the magistrate, it's not their fault. It's not about placing
[49:48] Speaker 2: blame at all. It's my fault I make. I'm a
[49:51] Speaker 2: product of my decisions. Yeah, like I am a product
[49:54] Speaker 2: of my decisions, and I take full responsibility. But you
[49:58] Speaker 2: know that judge had an opportunity to go. We are
[50:00] Speaker 2: not releasing you back into the community. You are going
[50:04] Speaker 2: to go to a rehabilitation facility because you clearly have
[50:07] Speaker 2: a problem.
[50:08] Speaker 1: Yeah, now that that's an interesting point in one. I
[50:11] Speaker 1: think we need to explore that set intervention in that
[50:15] Speaker 1: and a lot of people caught up in the drug
[50:17] Speaker 1: world as users that most time users at some point
[50:21] Speaker 1: in time become sellers because it's the nature of the
[50:24] Speaker 1: and it's expensive, it's the nature of the industry. But
[50:28] Speaker 1: what you're suggesting here is that at that point in time,
[50:33] Speaker 1: you clearly have a problem. Like you, let you walk
[50:37] Speaker 1: out the door, You're going to get straight back on
[50:38] Speaker 1: the gear.
[50:39] Speaker 2: They know it.
[50:40] Speaker 1: It would have been better at that point addressing it
[50:43] Speaker 1: through medical therapeutic approach to dealing with your problem.
[50:49] Speaker 2: Yeah, or at least someone sit down and have a
[50:51] Speaker 2: conversation with me and go. You have a choice. You
[50:54] Speaker 2: can either get yourself away from this, get yourself clean.
[51:00] Speaker 2: What do you want to do with your life? You
[51:01] Speaker 2: want to spend the rest you know, you want to
[51:02] Speaker 2: spend the rest of your days going in and out
[51:04] Speaker 2: of prison. And I can tell you it's not fun, like
[51:06] Speaker 2: you know and sit down and have these conversations with people,
[51:09] Speaker 2: like if you go to prison, it's going to be
[51:12] Speaker 2: really hard to get a job, you might not be
[51:14] Speaker 2: able to travel to some countries. You know, your whole
[51:16] Speaker 2: life's ahead of you, Like this is not your whole life,
[51:18] Speaker 2: like some sort of intervention, but like, no one. The
[51:22] Speaker 2: only conversation I had was with my lawyer who went,
[51:24] Speaker 2: you're going to prison, and I was like, oh, okay,
[51:27] Speaker 2: then sure, like all right, then, well I better make
[51:30] Speaker 2: it a good one. Like I don't know. I just
[51:32] Speaker 2: think there is a responsibility and if people still choose
[51:36] Speaker 2: to go down that path, because we ultimately can't make
[51:39] Speaker 2: people change, right, we can't make people change In any intervention,
[51:45] Speaker 2: people have to choose, and then at least you have
[51:48] Speaker 2: like a whole picture choice. You know, I didn't have
[51:51] Speaker 2: a choice. They're going here, you're getting go out, get
[51:54] Speaker 2: out of here, and get out of the court, and like,
[51:56] Speaker 2: what's my choice? I have to return the higher car.
[51:59] Speaker 2: I also owe people mine now and it's you know,
[52:03] Speaker 2: you're kind of forced into.
[52:05] Speaker 1: It, almost like the systems overwhelmed with it. Because if
[52:08] Speaker 1: we made you a case study and just had all
[52:11] Speaker 1: the smartest brains in psychologists and everyone else working at you.
[52:16] Speaker 1: There's a good chance we could turn you around. But
[52:18] Speaker 1: that's yeah, that takes resourcing and things that clearly we
[52:24] Speaker 1: don't have. But if we did, put the money in there,
[52:28] Speaker 1: because it costs us a shitload of money keeping you
[52:31] Speaker 1: in prison, what's one hundred and fifty thousand dollars I
[52:33] Speaker 1: think for adult inmates.
[52:35] Speaker 2: Four hundred and fifty dollars a day for the adult woman.
[52:40] Speaker 1: So even if we look at it from a financial
[52:44] Speaker 1: point of view, it would be best spent money trying
[52:47] Speaker 1: to divert you from your actions. So I find it
[52:52] Speaker 1: interesting because you look at you're looking at it what
[52:55] Speaker 1: I consider objectively, like you're talking this is my life
[52:57] Speaker 1: and this is what happened. But we could make a
[53:01] Speaker 1: difference that first time, clearly, like being a cop or
[53:06] Speaker 1: not even being a cop. I could look at the
[53:08] Speaker 1: situation you were callding and gone, okay, I can pretty
[53:11] Speaker 1: much tell what you've been doing for the last couple
[53:12] Speaker 1: of years.
[53:13] Speaker 2: They knew I'd been in raids. I've been present, you know,
[53:17] Speaker 2: they they and they knew me. These cops that that
[53:19] Speaker 2: got called out already knew me. They were calling me
[53:22] Speaker 2: by my first name. You know, I've been.
[53:25] Speaker 1: The path you're going down.
[53:27] Speaker 2: Yeah, but you know they're also their hands are tied,
[53:30] Speaker 2: Like it's not like it's their responsibility to go.
[53:32] Speaker 1: On in this discussion that the police can't do anything
[53:37] Speaker 1: other than enforcing force the law. Yeah, it's the justice
[53:41] Speaker 1: system that perhaps we could try to do it a
[53:44] Speaker 1: little bit differently.
[53:45] Speaker 2: And I think it's all systems that into play with
[53:47] Speaker 2: each other. Like it comes from the top down. It
[53:49] Speaker 2: comes from the people who make policy all the way
[53:52] Speaker 2: down to the people that enforce that policy. But I
[53:55] Speaker 2: want to make a point, like the Talia that got
[53:58] Speaker 2: arrested that first time deserved help, She deserved a choice.
[54:04] Speaker 2: Batalia that got arrested and got sent to prison the
[54:08] Speaker 2: last time probably needed to go to prison. I was
[54:11] Speaker 2: being pretty harmful, pretty terrible, and not that I like,
[54:15] Speaker 2: it's hard. It's hard to I mean, and they're the
[54:17] Speaker 2: I'm the same person, But like, what was the other
[54:20] Speaker 2: response that we could have had.
[54:21] Speaker 1: Yeah, by that stage, it was too late. You need
[54:24] Speaker 1: you needed some form of punishment.
[54:27] Speaker 2: Well, I just needed some form of accountability. I needed
[54:30] Speaker 2: to be held accountable. But I also once I was
[54:32] Speaker 2: being held accountable, needed resources to not do it again.
[54:35] Speaker 1: What we're talking about here, drug courts are very much
[54:39] Speaker 1: aligned with that. Have you got any knowledge of drug courts.
[54:43] Speaker 2: They're underfunded, they're not everywhere. They're starting to be defunded
[54:47] Speaker 2: in some states and closed down that you know, We've
[54:51] Speaker 2: got some reforms going on in Queensland that basically is
[54:55] Speaker 2: repealing like diversion laws, and we're going backwards in some places.
[55:01] Speaker 1: That's concerning because I thought that was a progressive way
[55:05] Speaker 1: of dealing dealing with the drug issue we're got in
[55:08] Speaker 1: society and the drug courts. But yeah, and I wonder
[55:13] Speaker 1: sometimes if it just doesn't fit the narrative of politicians
[55:17] Speaker 1: going for elections saying let's get tough on tough on crime.
[55:20] Speaker 1: I think we need to get smart on crime, not
[55:23] Speaker 1: tough on crime. Okay, we're going to talk about your
[55:27] Speaker 1: jail experience, which is never much much fun. But I
[55:32] Speaker 1: want to when we come back, we might take a break.
[55:34] Speaker 1: Now when we come back, I want you to take
[55:36] Speaker 1: us through what it's like going into prison, because unless
[55:39] Speaker 1: you've been there, I don't think anyone can fully appreciate it.
[55:42] Speaker 1: So if you could describe to us what you were
[55:45] Speaker 1: going through. When you pull up in the truck for
[55:48] Speaker 1: the first time and realize that this is where you're
[55:52] Speaker 1: spending a considerable amount of time.
[55:54] Speaker 2: Sounds good.
[55:55] Speaker 1: Cheers in NATS M

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