# Skinned, beheaded & cooked for dinner: Rojé Augustin Pt. 2

An episode of [I Catch Killers with Gary Jubelin](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1506667049), 31 Aug 2026, 1 h 07 min.

Audio: https://p.podderapp.com/2544644999/traffic.omny.fm/d/clips/2fb3740d-3436-44af-8cc0-a91900716aa5/5bc8c2ed-b718-4f44-beb3-ac2a005246cc/c2cb9a7b-14ac-4d6f-89f1-b4b3002f66e9/audio.mp3?utm_source=Podcast&in_playlist=786928c3-10c1-4cef-a7bf-ac2a005246d0

In this second part of I Catch Killers, Gary and Rojé delve deep into the chilling psyche of Katherine Knight—the only woman in Australia sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole. What drives a person to commit the unthinkable? They explore the gruesome crime scene that shocked even the most veteran homicide detectives, the calculation behind the skinning and butchering of John Price, and the psychological "triggers" that Katherine used to justify her actions. Gary and Rojé break down the terrifying final 24 hours of John Price's life, the warning signs that were missed, and the "nature vs. nurture" debate surrounding Knight’s fraternal twin sister. This is a gritty look into a real-life horror story and the long-term impact such extreme cases have on the detectives and communities left in their wake. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

## Transcript

[0:01] Speaker 1: The public has had a long-held fascination with detectives. Detectives
[0:05] Speaker 1: see a side of life the average person is never
[0:08] Speaker 1: exposed to. I spent 34 years as a cop. For
[0:12] Speaker 1: 25 of those years, I was catching killers. That's what
[0:14] Speaker 1: I did for a living. I was a homicide detective.
[0:17] Speaker 1: I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead, I'm taking
[0:21] Speaker 1: the public into the world in which I operated. The
[0:24] Speaker 1: guests I talk to each week have amazing stories from
[0:26] Speaker 1: all sides of the law. The interviews are raw and honest,
[0:29] Speaker 1: just like the people I talk to. Some of the
[0:31] Speaker 1: content and language might be confronting. That's because no one
[0:34] Speaker 1: who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged. Join
[0:38] Speaker 1: me now as I take you into this world. If
[0:46] Speaker 1: you listened to part one of my chat with journalist
[0:48] Speaker 1: Rojay Augustine, you would have got a sense of what
[0:52] Speaker 1: Catherine Knight was capable of. It was quite chilling how
[0:55] Speaker 1: she treated her partners prior to John Price. And looking
[0:59] Speaker 1: back with hindsight, it was almost inevitable someone like Catherine
[1:03] Speaker 1: was going to kill someone. She was obsessed with death.
[1:06] Speaker 1: She was into violence and angry and manipulative. And she
[1:10] Speaker 1: was someone that couldn't control her emotions. But what perhaps
[1:14] Speaker 1: we couldn't predict is the manner in which she took
[1:16] Speaker 1: John Price's life and what she did with his body.
[1:20] Speaker 1: A content warning is appropriate for this episode. Roger Augustin,
[1:26] Speaker 1: welcome back to part two of I Catch Killers. Thank you.
[1:29] Speaker 1: Given the topic that we're talking about, I think the
[1:32] Speaker 1: name of the podcast is fairly apt in I Catch Killers.
[1:36] Speaker 1: I've had Bob Wells, the detective that led the investigation
[1:39] Speaker 1: on the podcast previously.
[1:41] Speaker 2: I watched it, actually.
[1:43] Speaker 1: Right. Okay. Well, I was speaking to the other day
[1:46] Speaker 1: about it and- I remember sitting down with Bob and
[1:49] Speaker 1: he's seen a lot as most police have, but it
[1:53] Speaker 1: was just so chilling what the police, I think even
[1:56] Speaker 1: on the scale of things that you see as a
[1:58] Speaker 1: police officer, even working in homicide, there was something about
[2:01] Speaker 1: this crime that shocked everyone. And I think a lot
[2:04] Speaker 1: of the police involved, they carried the scars from what
[2:08] Speaker 1: they saw when they went into Catherine's house that day
[2:12] Speaker 1: and found what she'd done to John Price.
[2:15] Speaker 2: Yeah.
[2:17] Speaker 1: You've covered a lot of things in crime. You've looked
[2:19] Speaker 1: at crime. Is this one of the most horrific situations
[2:23] Speaker 1: you've heard of?
[2:24] Speaker 2: Absolutely.
[2:25] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[2:26] Speaker 2: It really is. The nature of what she did and
[2:29] Speaker 2: the kind of exclamation point at the end of this
[2:33] Speaker 2: murder were the skinning and the cooking and the boiling,
[2:37] Speaker 2: the head and homemade gravy. There are a lot of
[2:41] Speaker 2: other vicious crimes.
[2:43] Speaker 1: Yeah. You know, I.
[2:45] Speaker 2: I encountered in my, you know, sort of looking at
[2:48] Speaker 2: true crime stories is obviously Ted Bundy and Jeffrey Dahmer
[2:52] Speaker 2: was a pretty gruesome one. And you could place her
[2:57] Speaker 2: right up there.
[2:58] Speaker 1: You place her, like Ted Bundy, I say, that was
[3:02] Speaker 1: a frenzied attack. He was violent in the attack. With
[3:07] Speaker 1: Dahmer and with Catherine, I think, The joy and the
[3:12] Speaker 1: judge identify, that's a big call for a Supreme Court
[3:15] Speaker 1: judge to say the enjoyment, the sheer enjoyment she got
[3:19] Speaker 1: from what she did to the body afterwards. That's where
[3:21] Speaker 1: I think it shocks the senses of what we as
[3:25] Speaker 1: humans are capable of understanding, that darkness.
[3:29] Speaker 2: She said she enjoyed, she relaxed to her horror movies.
[3:34] Speaker 2: That's how she found an escape in her horror movies.
[3:37] Speaker 2: So she had a library of you know, bookshelves filled
[3:40] Speaker 2: with like Texas Chainsaw Massacre kind of things, Evil Dead.
[3:44] Speaker 2: And those are the things that she found calmed her,
[3:48] Speaker 2: you know, watching these kind of horrific murder slasher movies.
[3:53] Speaker 1: Well, she just seemed to have a fascination with death,
[3:56] Speaker 1: even the way. And I think her work at the
[3:58] Speaker 1: abattoirs came to an end when she injured the back.
[4:01] Speaker 1: And she got a payout for that, which allowed her
[4:04] Speaker 1: to buy a house.
[4:05] Speaker 2: That little cottage, yeah.
[4:07] Speaker 1: Little cottage. But the way that was set up, to me,
[4:09] Speaker 1: it looks like creepy town. Yeah, yeah.
[4:12] Speaker 2: Have you seen pictures?
[4:13] Speaker 1: I haven't seen the pictures of it.
[4:15] Speaker 2: There's some pictures online of the interior of her cottage,
[4:19] Speaker 2: and it was just like ceilings. Every surface of the walls,
[4:24] Speaker 2: there were pitchforks and irons, like just instruments of death,
[4:28] Speaker 2: the really strong sort of metal, heavy kind of violent,
[4:32] Speaker 2: She had crops and riding boots and all sorts of
[4:35] Speaker 2: stuff that she hung up everywhere, knives everywhere.
[4:40] Speaker 1: We talk about the psychology and the mental health side
[4:43] Speaker 1: of it. It seemed to me when she committed the crime,
[4:48] Speaker 1: there was a plan that she would get away with
[4:50] Speaker 1: it in her own mind that she might be able
[4:53] Speaker 1: to convince the court she wasn't of sound mind. That
[4:56] Speaker 1: was dispelled, and I think the assessment that she got
[5:00] Speaker 1: from psychiatrists and psychologists was that she had a personality disorder.
[5:05] Speaker 1: What's your take on her mental state?
[5:08] Speaker 2: She definitely had issues. A mental health issue.
[5:11] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[5:12] Speaker 2: I don't think you can be fully sane and present
[5:16] Speaker 2: and together mentally and do what she did. So there's
[5:19] Speaker 2: no question in my mind that there was something. Because
[5:22] Speaker 2: you had a twin sister, remember, who didn't turn out
[5:25] Speaker 2: like that. You know, her twin sister was fraternal, a
[5:28] Speaker 2: fraternal twin. So that says something, you know. So definitely
[5:31] Speaker 2: there was something, I think, in her chemistry that was
[5:34] Speaker 2: just off for whatever reason it was off.
[5:36] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[5:37] Speaker 2: Maybe it happened in childhood. Maybe it was the experiences
[5:39] Speaker 2: she had. Maybe she was born with it, a combination.
[5:42] Speaker 2: This is one of the big questions of the book,
[5:43] Speaker 2: nurture versus nature.
[5:46] Speaker 1: Nature and nurture.
[5:46] Speaker 2: Yeah.
[5:47] Speaker 1: It's interesting having a twin sister, and when you were
[5:50] Speaker 1: talking about the upbringing, and you can see some of
[5:52] Speaker 1: the things that could have set her off track. Nature
[5:56] Speaker 1: and nurture, certainly no expert on it, but I've done
[5:58] Speaker 1: a little bit of research in discussions with James Fallon,
[6:02] Speaker 1: who's a neuroscientist. From L.A. And he's interested in some
[6:11] Speaker 1: of the worst serial killers they had in the United
[6:13] Speaker 1: States and was doing PET scans on their brain to
[6:16] Speaker 1: look if there was something in the pattern within the
[6:19] Speaker 1: brain that was consistent throughout for psychopaths. And he actually
[6:23] Speaker 1: found something, a consistency in there, something about them, delving
[6:27] Speaker 1: into areas that I don't fully understand, but the cortex,
[6:30] Speaker 1: the frontal cortex of the brain, there was a shadow
[6:32] Speaker 1: area or something like that.
[6:34] Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
[6:35] Speaker 1: He also, for more research, had to do PET scans
[6:39] Speaker 1: of his own family. And he found that one of
[6:43] Speaker 1: the PET scans came up with the same predisposition of
[6:48] Speaker 1: the psychopaths that he'd done, but it was his brain.
[6:51] Speaker 1: No way. Maybe that was his attraction. Well, it's quite interesting. Okay,
[6:58] Speaker 1: so he's got the same predisposition as a psychopath, but
[7:02] Speaker 1: his rationale was that he grew up in a happy
[7:05] Speaker 1: environment in those formative years where, you know, You loved
[7:09] Speaker 1: and nurtured zero to the age of three. Interesting. Whereas
[7:13] Speaker 1: that probably kept him on track if he grew up
[7:17] Speaker 1: in a different environment. So it's a sort of combination
[7:20] Speaker 1: of nature and nurture. But the fact that she's got
[7:23] Speaker 1: a twin sister that hasn't gone down the same path, yeah,
[7:28] Speaker 1: it's interesting, isn't it?
[7:29] Speaker 2: So I wonder if you did a PET scan of
[7:31] Speaker 2: Joy's brain. But it wouldn't show maybe– if Catherine showed
[7:36] Speaker 2: this pattern, Joyce may not show it.
[7:39] Speaker 1: Yeah, I wonder that. In terms of– you asked me
[7:44] Speaker 1: in part two how we'd look at that from the
[7:46] Speaker 1: psychological point of view from a homicide detective's. I work
[7:50] Speaker 1: with Dr. Sarah Ewell a great deal. She's a psychologist
[7:54] Speaker 1: that worked in criminal investigations, not the psychologist to help
[7:58] Speaker 1: police get through their post-traumatic stress. It was about helping
[8:01] Speaker 1: with criminal investigations. And we'd look at warning signs. And
[8:07] Speaker 1: she often said to me, like on different investigations, I
[8:11] Speaker 1: didn't need to consult with her on gangland killings. I
[8:13] Speaker 1: sort of understood that world. But the more creepy ones,
[8:16] Speaker 1: the abductions or that, That's where I would seek her advice.
[8:22] Speaker 1: And I wonder what she would look at, and I'm
[8:24] Speaker 1: only speculating here on what she would see in the
[8:28] Speaker 1: pattern that Catherine, growing up and her relationships with her
[8:33] Speaker 1: other partners. I can only say from like a homicide
[8:36] Speaker 1: detective's point of view, and I never try to, you know,
[8:40] Speaker 1: play out of my lane and understand the psychology behind it.
[8:43] Speaker 2: But you'd have seen so much, yeah.
[8:46] Speaker 1: What I see with that, and I think that's why
[8:49] Speaker 1: the book, I won't say traumatized, but it really got
[8:55] Speaker 1: me hooked because I'm thinking, we should have stepped in here,
[8:59] Speaker 1: we should have stepped in there. You could see it
[9:01] Speaker 1: building up and it was like watching murder about to
[9:04] Speaker 1: happen in a slow train crash. It was sooner or later,
[9:08] Speaker 1: This is going to get bad. So the psychology of that,
[9:15] Speaker 1: the manipulative side of it, because I've dealt with people
[9:19] Speaker 1: in murder investigations where I'm wondering, are we dealing with
[9:22] Speaker 1: someone that's dealing with a high degree of insanity here? Mm-hmm.
[9:27] Speaker 1: She always had enough control to manipulate situations. That's where
[9:32] Speaker 1: I see the danger of a person like her.
[9:34] Speaker 2: That's right, yeah.
[9:36] Speaker 1: If she left the baby on the train tracks and
[9:39] Speaker 1: then ran around saying, I've left the baby on the
[9:41] Speaker 1: train tracks and started singing and dancing, I'd be thinking, okay.
[9:45] Speaker 1: But she did that for a reason. She did that
[9:47] Speaker 1: to get her husband back.
[9:49] Speaker 2: Yeah.
[9:49] Speaker 1: And then she charmed the husband and everything that she
[9:53] Speaker 1: did was manipulative. That's what I would be looking at
[9:55] Speaker 1: the psychology of her. I wouldn't trust her as far
[9:59] Speaker 1: as I could throw her.
[10:00] Speaker 2: That's right.
[10:01] Speaker 1: If I was involved in just one of those investigations,
[10:04] Speaker 1: one of those incidents that we talked about, I'd be
[10:07] Speaker 1: looking at her as very dangerous.
[10:09] Speaker 2: I think that's why you feel like evil is a
[10:12] Speaker 2: word that could be applied to her.
[10:13] Speaker 1: Well, and in all the people I've dealt with, there's
[10:17] Speaker 1: only a few people I've put that tag on say
[10:20] Speaker 1: that they're evil because I don't understand what they do.
[10:24] Speaker 1: I don't understand what they're capable of. And I'm thinking, well,
[10:27] Speaker 1: there's no rationale or logic to what their actions are,
[10:32] Speaker 1: but what she did. And we'd look at crime scenes
[10:36] Speaker 1: too and how the crime scene would tell you a
[10:39] Speaker 1: lot about the offender. And a crime scene, you can
[10:42] Speaker 1: see the panic crime scene where you see something that's
[10:45] Speaker 1: just escalated. A murder's happened or someone's died and the
[10:49] Speaker 1: offender or the person involved has panicked and just disappeared. Right.
[10:53] Speaker 1: You also see the crime scenes where someone's tried to
[10:58] Speaker 1: dispose of the body and it can be gruesome. They
[11:01] Speaker 1: might cut the body up, but you see that the
[11:03] Speaker 1: purpose of it is to hide the body. So they're
[11:05] Speaker 1: cutting it up, putting it in a barrel or whatever. Yeah.
[11:09] Speaker 1: You walk in and see a crime scene like that,
[11:10] Speaker 1: and I've only seen a couple like that, that just
[11:14] Speaker 1: sort of hit you. That tells you something about the
[11:18] Speaker 1: person that you're looking at.
[11:19] Speaker 2: What does it tell you? So if you had walked in,
[11:20] Speaker 2: what would it tell you?
[11:22] Speaker 1: It would tell me that this shocking crime didn't shock
[11:25] Speaker 1: the person who committed it. This shocking crime, this person
[11:29] Speaker 1: still had the self-control to manipulate and put things the
[11:33] Speaker 1: way they wanted to. entertain themselves with the uh with
[11:37] Speaker 1: the body so to me from a homicide detective it
[11:41] Speaker 1: takes it into a whole another.
[11:43] Speaker 2: Yeah range because she didn't clean up she left it
[11:46] Speaker 2: there and then she just went to sleep in the
[11:49] Speaker 2: back bedroom.
[11:49] Speaker 1: Yeah she she wasn't trying to hide it she was
[11:52] Speaker 1: gonna yeah look what you're gonna walk in and it's
[11:54] Speaker 1: almost like she wanted to shock people too yeah the
[11:58] Speaker 1: cutting off the pieces of flesh and cooking them and
[12:01] Speaker 1: preparing with and you keep saying gravy and I take
[12:05] Speaker 1: your point there. That's not just, that's thought, oh, I
[12:08] Speaker 1: might pinch of salt in here, some gravy and all that. Homemade.
[12:12] Speaker 2: Homemade, yeah.
[12:13] Speaker 1: I know. It's horrendous.
[12:16] Speaker 2: That's interesting because, you know, having your experience where you
[12:21] Speaker 2: can walk into a crime scene and you can tell
[12:23] Speaker 2: what was panic, what was wanting to hide. It didn't
[12:27] Speaker 2: cross my mind that for detectives who walked in on
[12:30] Speaker 2: that scene, they would have They would have differentiated, as
[12:35] Speaker 2: you have outlined.
[12:37] Speaker 1: Straight away. Someone's leaving this here for us to see it.
[12:41] Speaker 2: Yeah.
[12:41] Speaker 1: They don't care, and that takes it to– you don't
[12:45] Speaker 1: see many crime scenes like that.
[12:47] Speaker 2: No, that adds a lot to the shock. Yeah. Because
[12:49] Speaker 2: even someone like Dahmer, for example, he did try to
[12:53] Speaker 2: hide his kills.
[12:55] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[12:55] Speaker 2: I mean, he put them in barrels. He put them
[12:57] Speaker 2: in his freezer. Yeah. Ted Bundy, he left the scene.
[13:02] Speaker 1: They're a frenzied attack. He had satisfied whatever need he
[13:06] Speaker 1: had and then he disappeared.
[13:07] Speaker 2: He fled, yeah.
[13:09] Speaker 1: This one, she wasn't even satisfied with the murder. There
[13:13] Speaker 1: was more that she wanted than the murder wasn't going
[13:16] Speaker 1: to cut it for her. She wanted to just humiliate him,
[13:20] Speaker 1: perhaps shock people and really say, I have been Look
[13:25] Speaker 1: what happens if someone wrongs me. Look if someone does
[13:28] Speaker 1: the wrong thing by me, what I'm capable of. Yeah, yeah.
[13:31] Speaker 2: Really, when you think of the term, hell hath no fury.
[13:34] Speaker 2: I mean, this just takes it up. Because to me,
[13:38] Speaker 2: it's sort of like a giant F you.
[13:42] Speaker 1: Yes.
[13:42] Speaker 2: You know, to his family, to his friends, to the community.
[13:47] Speaker 2: It's just it. It is a real statement.
[13:50] Speaker 1: You're singing from the rooftop. Look what I've done. Who's
[13:54] Speaker 1: going to cheat on me now? Who's going to leave
[13:56] Speaker 1: me now? It's evil. Anyway, we've got straight into the end.
[14:03] Speaker 2: That's really interesting.
[14:04] Speaker 1: But I do find it fascinating, and that particular crime
[14:08] Speaker 1: scene is it's making a statement, and the statement is
[14:10] Speaker 1: quite scary even in thinking about what the statement is.
[14:14] Speaker 1: Look what I've done. I'm proud of it. And you
[14:17] Speaker 1: don't see many crime scenes like that. Yeah. Where did
[14:21] Speaker 1: they meet?
[14:23] Speaker 2: Okay. John Price.
[14:24] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[14:25] Speaker 2: And Catherine, they met at the Top Pub. Again, she
[14:29] Speaker 2: was in there one night on a Friday night with
[14:32] Speaker 2: a girlfriend. They'd gone out for some drinks. I think
[14:35] Speaker 2: she was on the prowl looking for her next conquest.
[14:39] Speaker 1: Yep.
[14:40] Speaker 2: And she sees him across the bar having a laugh
[14:44] Speaker 2: with his mates. He always had He was described as
[14:47] Speaker 2: someone who always had a group of people around him
[14:49] Speaker 2: because he was a raconteur. He would tell the stories
[14:53] Speaker 2: and just get people laughing. And she liked the look
[14:56] Speaker 2: of him. And she went over and, as she'd done
[15:00] Speaker 2: in the past, sort of approached him and pursued him
[15:04] Speaker 2: and offered herself up to him. And so being a
[15:08] Speaker 2: man who... whose weakness was women. He went for it
[15:14] Speaker 2: and they started a relationship that he really enjoyed. In
[15:19] Speaker 2: the beginning, he really, really loved her. He had a
[15:22] Speaker 2: lot of fun with her to the point where he
[15:25] Speaker 2: asked her to move in or said, you can come
[15:28] Speaker 2: and stay with us. He gave her the key because
[15:30] Speaker 2: she looked after him. She did what he wanted, looked
[15:34] Speaker 2: after his needs. Again, playing that sort of suburban housewife.
[15:39] Speaker 2: And this is where I think there was a part
[15:41] Speaker 2: of her that desired that very much as a counterpoint
[15:46] Speaker 2: to the instability that she maybe grew up with. And
[15:51] Speaker 2: after a couple of years, that pattern repeated itself.
[15:55] Speaker 1: Was there a turning point? Where did it go bad
[15:58] Speaker 1: or what sort of triggered her to show her true colors?
[16:01] Speaker 2: The major turning point, as far as I could tell,
[16:05] Speaker 2: is when she discovered the will that he was leaving
[16:10] Speaker 2: all of his possessions to his ex-wife and to all
[16:14] Speaker 2: of his children. And also he refused to marry her. Right.
[16:19] Speaker 2: Remember with Dave Kellett, she asked him to marry her.
[16:22] Speaker 1: And this is someone that's not … So he's ex-wife.
[16:28] Speaker 1: Catherine's found the will where he's leaving his place and
[16:32] Speaker 1: his possessions to the ex-wife and the children.
[16:35] Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right. And wouldn't marry. And wouldn't marry her, yeah.
[16:41] Speaker 2: But yes, Colleen in the book was the wife. And
[16:44] Speaker 2: they maintained a good relationship. She left after 13 years
[16:49] Speaker 2: of marriage, not because she didn't love him, but because
[16:52] Speaker 2: he was just too– Easygoing. Yeah, he was always at
[16:57] Speaker 2: the pub, you know.
[16:58] Speaker 1: Just an easygoing guy. Yeah.
[17:00] Speaker 2: And she just wanted to spend more time with him
[17:02] Speaker 2: and he just kind of didn't, you know. He always
[17:05] Speaker 2: wanted to be with his maids. He'd have a few
[17:06] Speaker 2: drinks and next thing you know, he's home late. And
[17:08] Speaker 2: I think she got tired of that.
[17:09] Speaker 1: Did she have a jealousy for the ex-wife, like not
[17:12] Speaker 1: just the will?
[17:14] Speaker 2: I think that came after the will.
[17:15] Speaker 1: Right.
[17:15] Speaker 2: I think prior to that, there wasn't any talk about
[17:20] Speaker 2: the ex-wife. It was when she discovered that He was
[17:23] Speaker 2: leaving everything to her that she was left out. Then, yes,
[17:26] Speaker 2: she obsessed over it. And so she tried very much
[17:30] Speaker 2: to get John to marry her because I think there
[17:35] Speaker 2: was a motivation, a financial motivation for her as well.
[17:38] Speaker 2: She wanted to have assets. She wanted to have a home.
[17:42] Speaker 2: And this was the way that she was going to
[17:43] Speaker 2: do it because she couldn't work anymore. You know, she'd
[17:45] Speaker 2: been let go at the abattoir. She was collecting her
[17:47] Speaker 2: little bit of money. And she lived in that tiny
[17:50] Speaker 2: little drafty cottage and she wanted something better for herself
[17:53] Speaker 2: and her kids. So trying to persuade him, you know,
[17:57] Speaker 2: what about me? What about me? And he just wouldn't budge.
[18:00] Speaker 2: And that just grew into a real thorn for her.
[18:05] Speaker 2: And then, of course, the triggers. Now she's lit up
[18:08] Speaker 2: by this anger and then it becomes jealousy. You're looking
[18:12] Speaker 2: at her. Who's you know, what are you doing? You're
[18:15] Speaker 2: out late. This and that, you know, it just piles on.
[18:19] Speaker 2: to the point where they're fighting a lot and he
[18:21] Speaker 2: can't take it and tries to end it. And, of course,
[18:26] Speaker 2: you try to end it with Catherine.
[18:28] Speaker 1: That's not good. No, no.
[18:30] Speaker 2: And as you know, there was the act of the
[18:33] Speaker 2: Hawick Mines incident where she got him fired.
[18:36] Speaker 1: Tell us about that because that, again, that just shows
[18:39] Speaker 1: how calculating and callous she is in the way that
[18:43] Speaker 1: she treats these people and that she, if you've wronged her,
[18:47] Speaker 1: There's nothing off limits. That's right. That's what tells me.
[18:51] Speaker 1: Tell us that story because I thought, wow, that's a bitchy,
[18:54] Speaker 1: horrible thing to do.
[18:55] Speaker 2: Really bitchy. I know. Very petty. So she was angry
[19:01] Speaker 2: about all of these things and feeling jealous and feeling
[19:04] Speaker 2: abandoned and worried that he's going to– and I think
[19:09] Speaker 2: by that point he had tried to break it off
[19:10] Speaker 2: a couple of times and certainly cooled it a bit.
[19:14] Speaker 2: So in her mind– This is how I'm going to
[19:18] Speaker 2: get him back. And I guess, you know, people like that,
[19:21] Speaker 2: they're thinking this is somehow going to work. You know,
[19:25] Speaker 2: that the anger and the manipulation is somehow going to
[19:27] Speaker 2: get the person to come around and do what you want. And,
[19:30] Speaker 2: of course, we know that never works for very long,
[19:33] Speaker 2: if at all. And so she decided one day that
[19:36] Speaker 2: she was going to videotape all these items that he
[19:39] Speaker 2: had lying around on his property in his home. And
[19:43] Speaker 2: she knew that a lot of them came from his work.
[19:46] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[19:46] Speaker 2: Things that he had taken from the storeroom or from
[19:50] Speaker 2: the infirmary or what.
[19:51] Speaker 1: Have you petty little things in that environment.
[19:53] Speaker 2: Yeah and you know who knows how they how he
[19:56] Speaker 2: brought them into the house but she knew that they
[19:58] Speaker 2: came from from them the mines so she videotaped all
[20:02] Speaker 2: these things she went around the house with a running
[20:04] Speaker 2: commentary this is this thing that he took from that
[20:06] Speaker 2: and here's the um Here's the first aid kit, which
[20:10] Speaker 2: was a real clincher. And she sent the video to
[20:12] Speaker 2: his boss that he watched the next morning. And I'm
[20:17] Speaker 2: thinking for the boss, you've got this woman, the drama
[20:23] Speaker 2: that that brings. Maybe the first aid kit wasn't a
[20:27] Speaker 2: huge deal, you know, in the grand scheme of things.
[20:30] Speaker 2: But you're thinking, this woman is trouble. I don't want
[20:34] Speaker 2: this drama anymore.
[20:35] Speaker 1: No, this could blow up.
[20:36] Speaker 2: On my watch, yeah.
[20:37] Speaker 1: She's brought the home drama into the workplace.
[20:40] Speaker 2: Exactly.
[20:40] Speaker 1: So get rid of them.
[20:42] Speaker 2: Yeah, that's what I think. The reason they gave was
[20:45] Speaker 2: because of the first aid kit, because of health and
[20:48] Speaker 2: safety insurance, things like that. He didn't really care about
[20:51] Speaker 2: the other stuff, but this is where he had grounds
[20:53] Speaker 2: to let John go. who, mind you, had been there
[20:55] Speaker 2: for 20 years, nearly 20 years.
[20:57] Speaker 1: And he was almost at the point of the pension.
[20:59] Speaker 1: Getting his pension, yeah.
[21:00] Speaker 2: And he was on a six-figure salary, which back then
[21:03] Speaker 2: was really good for a guy who worked in a
[21:06] Speaker 2: small town, regional, who hadn't gone to college, only had
[21:10] Speaker 2: a high school education. He was doing quite well for himself.
[21:14] Speaker 1: The upshot of her little spiteful video sent to his
[21:19] Speaker 1: boss was that he lost his job. Yes.
[21:21] Speaker 2: So he got fired on the spot.
[21:23] Speaker 1: Okay.
[21:23] Speaker 2: Okay.
[21:24] Speaker 1: I'm thinking you might end the relationship at this stage,
[21:28] Speaker 1: but clearly not. How did she?
[21:30] Speaker 2: It did for a period of time. He was really
[21:33] Speaker 2: furious and he did kick her out. He threw all
[21:36] Speaker 2: of her things out and said, just get out of here.
[21:38] Speaker 2: I've had enough of you. But then she, and I
[21:43] Speaker 2: think there was a cooling off period for a few weeks,
[21:47] Speaker 2: but then she went around looking for him and eventually
[21:51] Speaker 2: got her clutches around him again. and convinced him that
[21:55] Speaker 2: he had done her wrong by making her jealous, by
[22:01] Speaker 2: not leaving possessions to her, by not marrying her. All
[22:04] Speaker 2: these things just triggered her so much that it's your fault.
[22:08] Speaker 2: You made me do it. And foolishly, he sort of
[22:15] Speaker 2: agreed with it.
[22:16] Speaker 1: He came around to it. But that is, breaking it down,
[22:19] Speaker 1: domestic violence, that's coercive control. Maybe I deserved it. I
[22:25] Speaker 1: could have done this. I could have done that. It's
[22:26] Speaker 1: plain in people's... And.
[22:27] Speaker 2: Calling another woman's name out while they were in bed together.
[22:31] Speaker 1: Oh, that would have gone over well with her.
[22:34] Speaker 2: It wasn't who I said. The name of the person
[22:38] Speaker 2: wasn't known, but I thought To keep the story tight
[22:44] Speaker 2: that I just, you know.
[22:46] Speaker 1: Well, I think it sort of highlights the type of
[22:49] Speaker 1: trigger points that someone like that would have in the
[22:52] Speaker 1: middle of a sexual act and the bloke has said
[22:57] Speaker 1: a different name.
[22:58] Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
[22:58] Speaker 1: That'd take a lot of explaining with someone like her.
[23:00] Speaker 1: That's right, yeah.
[23:01] Speaker 2: So you put all of that together. So she basically
[23:04] Speaker 2: put it at his feet, like, look what you've done
[23:06] Speaker 2: to me, you know, all these things. What woman wouldn't
[23:09] Speaker 2: be upset?
[23:10] Speaker 1: It carries that guilt and all that. And she starts
[23:14] Speaker 1: to weasel her way back into his life.
[23:17] Speaker 2: And his friends were in shock. His family, they all
[23:21] Speaker 2: couldn't understand it. Why would you do this? After what
[23:24] Speaker 2: she'd done, why would you let her back in? And
[23:28] Speaker 2: I'm thinking to myself, why would he do that? And
[23:32] Speaker 2: I had the sense that he was afraid by that point.
[23:36] Speaker 2: And I wonder if it wasn't easier for him to
[23:39] Speaker 2: just let her back and sort of keep your enemy closer.
[23:43] Speaker 1: Well, statistically, the danger period for domestic violence situations is
[23:50] Speaker 1: when we're talking the man being the perpetrator and the
[23:53] Speaker 1: woman the victim is at the time when they try
[23:56] Speaker 1: to leave. And that's when the high risk comes. So
[24:01] Speaker 1: one would assume the same thing. And looking at her
[24:04] Speaker 1: pattern and the dynamics of the relationship, I can understand
[24:07] Speaker 1: why he would be scared. Yeah.
[24:09] Speaker 2: So I speculated in the book that that was part
[24:13] Speaker 2: of the reason that his friends had no idea how
[24:16] Speaker 2: really terrified he was by that point, seeing what she
[24:19] Speaker 2: was capable of, not knowing what she would do next.
[24:22] Speaker 2: And so I think he felt he needed a cooling
[24:25] Speaker 2: off period, keep her close and work out how do
[24:29] Speaker 2: I get myself out of this situation? And he also
[24:31] Speaker 2: was afraid for his children. So rather than make it
[24:35] Speaker 2: a final, you're out of my life, knowing how vindictive
[24:38] Speaker 2: she was. I think he felt this is the better strategy.
[24:43] Speaker 1: I think the way you described it is perfectly understandable.
[24:46] Speaker 1: I think if I was in that situation, I'd have
[24:49] Speaker 1: concerns like making the cut and, okay, well, how is
[24:52] Speaker 1: she going to get back to me this time? If
[24:54] Speaker 1: she's capable of, yeah, the violence, capable of, yeah, the
[24:58] Speaker 1: vindictive stuff like the filming and sending it to his boss.
[25:03] Speaker 1: Your kids, wasn't there a passage in their time too
[25:07] Speaker 1: where she told one of his children that he's not
[25:11] Speaker 1: the father? I mean, yeah, we talk evil and that
[25:16] Speaker 1: stems into it, to play with a kid's mind like that.
[25:19] Speaker 1: Tell us that story.
[25:20] Speaker 2: Yeah, she was just, again, yeah, just playing with this
[25:24] Speaker 2: child's mind. I think it was part of her campaign
[25:27] Speaker 2: of manipulation and control and just keeping people... around her on, on,
[25:35] Speaker 2: on eggshells, do you know? And I think that was
[25:37] Speaker 2: a way to get attention as well from, from Price.
[25:42] Speaker 2: And at that point they might've had kind of a
[25:45] Speaker 2: low period in their, in their relationship. And, and this
[25:49] Speaker 2: was a way for, for her to kind of ignite
[25:52] Speaker 2: more drama. I think she's also somebody who was so
[25:55] Speaker 2: used to having drama that if there was nothing happening,
[25:57] Speaker 2: no drama, then something's wrong, you know? It's sort of
[26:00] Speaker 2: like when everything's quiet, somebody has to drop a plate.
[26:04] Speaker 1: It's interesting you say that, but I understand what you're saying.
[26:08] Speaker 1: She's striving for this 1950s marriage, the husband's working and
[26:14] Speaker 1: she's looking after the kids, all that. But if she actually–
[26:17] Speaker 1: if it starts to get that peaceful, she's got to
[26:20] Speaker 1: stir things up because she likes the drama.
[26:23] Speaker 2: Because for her, that's what family life looks like.
[26:26] Speaker 1: That's what a relationship– Well, now you're getting into the
[26:28] Speaker 1: psychology of it.
[26:29] Speaker 2: Yeah, because that's what she grew up with. So that's
[26:32] Speaker 2: the model of family for her is my guess, you know,
[26:35] Speaker 2: and conflict. That was very much the kind of dynamic
[26:40] Speaker 2: between her parents, and she witnessed all of that.
[26:43] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[26:44] Speaker 2: It's normal for her. And when there wasn't anything, she
[26:48] Speaker 2: had to create it. And I think that was one
[26:50] Speaker 2: of the ways that she did it, by going after
[26:53] Speaker 2: this poor innocent child and saying this thing when she
[26:55] Speaker 2: didn't need to say anything like that. It wasn't even true.
[26:58] Speaker 2: So what's that about, right? It's manipulation. It's keeping drama,
[27:02] Speaker 2: keeping control, and controlling the interaction between her and John
[27:07] Speaker 2: and the family. It was just It's interesting that you
[27:10] Speaker 2: seized on that because to me that was also a
[27:12] Speaker 2: really cruel, it's like pinching somebody for no reason just
[27:16] Speaker 2: because you like to pinch.
[27:18] Speaker 1: And the other thing about her too, looking at all
[27:21] Speaker 1: the things that we've talked about and she's done, she's
[27:24] Speaker 1: never sort of come back and said, I'm sorry. It's not, okay,
[27:28] Speaker 1: I went too far. You didn't deserve that. No one's
[27:32] Speaker 1: checked her. She's just in her own mind. She's justifying herself.
[27:36] Speaker 1: everything that she's doing. So she's become emboldened by it. Like,
[27:41] Speaker 1: look what I've done.
[27:42] Speaker 2: And it's always somebody else's fault. You made me do this.
[27:45] Speaker 2: You shouldn't have done that. Otherwise I wouldn't have done this.
[27:48] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[27:49] Speaker 2: Always. Yeah. Which is classic, you know, for people like that.
[27:52] Speaker 2: It's one of the markers of that kind of disorder,
[27:55] Speaker 2: first of all, and that kind of manipulative, abusive, it's
[27:59] Speaker 2: part of the whole package of, you know, blaming the victims.
[28:04] Speaker 1: We've looked at situations with her domestic. Did she cause
[28:09] Speaker 1: conflict outside her domestic relationships? Was there any other indicators
[28:13] Speaker 1: or did it all sort of that was her world
[28:17] Speaker 1: contained in?
[28:17] Speaker 2: It was mostly contained to the men. Certainly that's what
[28:20] Speaker 2: was mostly, that's what was pointed to in terms of
[28:24] Speaker 2: working out, you know, particularly during the pretrial hearings, looked
[28:30] Speaker 2: at that history. Yeah. to determine, well, what are we
[28:34] Speaker 2: going to do with this woman? Is she culpable? Is
[28:36] Speaker 2: she responsible for what she's done? And that was the
[28:39] Speaker 2: history that was really examined. There were people who said,
[28:44] Speaker 2: you know, if I saw her walking down the street,
[28:47] Speaker 2: I would cross. Because you don't know what she's going
[28:50] Speaker 2: to do. And there were women in her circles who
[28:52] Speaker 2: would say that, that if you did something she didn't
[28:55] Speaker 2: like or said something she could.
[29:01] Speaker 1: That makes sense because I couldn't see how she could
[29:03] Speaker 1: control everything because life stems past the domestic situation where
[29:09] Speaker 1: she'd be volatile there. What was the situation where she
[29:13] Speaker 1: stabbed Pricey?
[29:14] Speaker 2: A couple of times she stabbed him, yeah.
[29:17] Speaker 1: Talk us through that, his reaction, his friend's reaction, and
[29:20] Speaker 1: what actually happened.
[29:22] Speaker 2: So the first time– so, yes, there was a time
[29:25] Speaker 2: where he confronted her about what she said to his daughter.
[29:29] Speaker 1: Oh, right, yeah.
[29:30] Speaker 2: Saying, you know, that he's not her father, and he
[29:34] Speaker 2: was furious about that. And his ex-wife was as well.
[29:38] Speaker 1: Understandable.
[29:40] Speaker 2: So he confronts her about it. And she's been in
[29:43] Speaker 2: the kitchen sort of cooking and cleaning up and whatnot.
[29:47] Speaker 2: And the way she describes it is that she had
[29:50] Speaker 2: the knife like this and he sort of fell into it.
[29:54] Speaker 2: I mean, honestly, it's just, it's the most ridiculous.
[29:56] Speaker 1: You'd be surprised how many times that happens. I've heard
[29:58] Speaker 1: a lot of people, they've dived at the knife.
[30:00] Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah.
[30:01] Speaker 1: As you do.
[30:01] Speaker 2: Yeah, he fell on it. So they got into an altercation.
[30:05] Speaker 2: He was really angry about that and confronted her. And
[30:08] Speaker 2: of course, you know, you don't confront Catherine, you don't
[30:11] Speaker 2: tell her anything. And she stabs him just below the
[30:14] Speaker 2: collarbone in his shoulder. He doesn't report it. He doesn't
[30:19] Speaker 2: do anything. He just gets a bandaid, sort of a
[30:21] Speaker 2: patch and puts it on there and Thankfully, it healed,
[30:24] Speaker 2: but it was quite an angry wound for a while.
[30:27] Speaker 2: You know, friends who saw it say, you know.
[30:30] Speaker 1: There's a lot of force that needs to penetrate down there.
[30:33] Speaker 2: And it was a kitchen knife. So it wasn't.
[30:37] Speaker 1: In the chest.
[30:38] Speaker 2: In the chest. So that, yeah, a lot of force.
[30:40] Speaker 2: It would have been very painful. And there was one
[30:44] Speaker 2: other time. Oh, no, the other stabbing was with Saunders.
[30:47] Speaker 2: She stabbed him with scissors in the stomach. Yeah, because
[30:50] Speaker 2: I was thinking, did she stab Pricey twice? No, but
[30:53] Speaker 2: she stabbed him in the shoulder. Certainly battered him quite
[30:56] Speaker 2: a lot throughout their relationship. You know, she really, like... And.
[31:00] Speaker 1: These are the things that we know of. Yeah. Exactly.
[31:04] Speaker 1: And in domestic violence, quite often you don't get things.
[31:06] Speaker 2: And he didn't talk about it much. Yeah, yeah. He
[31:09] Speaker 2: really didn't.
[31:09] Speaker 1: The shame. Mm-hmm. After he'd been stabbed in the chest
[31:12] Speaker 1: with a knife... Mm-hmm. He's friends. He had a circle
[31:16] Speaker 1: of friends. People in a town, in a small town
[31:18] Speaker 1: would understand, well, yeah, some shit's going down in that relationship.
[31:23] Speaker 1: What was the advice from family and friends? Because I
[31:27] Speaker 1: got the sense that they were concerned. Oh, yeah.
[31:29] Speaker 2: They were getting increasingly concerned and they were telling him,
[31:33] Speaker 2: stay away from her. Do not go back to that woman.
[31:36] Speaker 2: Get the authorities involved. You need to go and get
[31:39] Speaker 2: this documented. And time and again, you know, for a
[31:43] Speaker 2: while he was sort of like, ah, It'll be fine. No,
[31:45] Speaker 2: I don't need, you know, it's like the wound. That
[31:49] Speaker 2: I think was very symbolic of how he treated the relationship.
[31:52] Speaker 2: It was a bad wound, but he just put a
[31:55] Speaker 2: patch on it. Didn't go to the hospital, didn't go
[31:58] Speaker 2: to the doctor, didn't make sure that it wasn't infected.
[32:02] Speaker 2: He just was like, cover it up and carry on,
[32:06] Speaker 2: which is, you know, what he did with their relationship
[32:10] Speaker 2: and the abuse that he was suffering. It wasn't until
[32:12] Speaker 2: it got to And again, we don't know what happened
[32:16] Speaker 2: behind closers, but they apparently had a really terrible fight
[32:20] Speaker 2: on the Sunday before he died. And in the record,
[32:24] Speaker 2: they'd had a number of fights. They battered each other.
[32:28] Speaker 2: She really battered him quite a lot. And he'd show
[32:30] Speaker 2: up with a bruise here and there, and they'd say, oh,
[32:32] Speaker 2: the speckled hen, she's gotten to you. So he'd show
[32:35] Speaker 2: up with bruises. And the Sunday before he was murdered
[32:41] Speaker 2: must have been really bad.
[32:42] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[32:43] Speaker 2: Because that morning he went to his boss and said,
[32:47] Speaker 2: if I don't show up for work tomorrow, it's because
[32:49] Speaker 2: she's killed me. So she must have said something, done
[32:54] Speaker 2: something the day before that really terrified him. Because then
[32:58] Speaker 2: he went to the police, got an AVO, showed the bruising.
[33:02] Speaker 2: He really wanted to collect evidence.
[33:04] Speaker 1: And this was in the lead up to the murder? Yes.
[33:07] Speaker 2: This was 24 hours before the murder. So the morning
[33:10] Speaker 2: he's killed- He's gone to the police to get an
[33:14] Speaker 2: AVO against her.
[33:15] Speaker 1: Okay, so it must have been escalating.
[33:17] Speaker 2: And he's told his boss, if I don't show up
[33:21] Speaker 2: to work tomorrow, because his boss says, go to the police.
[33:25] Speaker 2: You need to take care of this. This is bad.
[33:26] Speaker 2: Because he shows the bruise. Finally, he says, you know,
[33:29] Speaker 2: I'm terrified. They could tell it was weighing on him.
[33:32] Speaker 2: So he says, go to the police. He goes, he
[33:35] Speaker 2: takes out the AVO. But before he leaves, he says,
[33:37] Speaker 2: if I don't show up to work tomorrow, it's because
[33:39] Speaker 2: she's killed me. He says that to the boss. So
[33:44] Speaker 2: then he goes home. I don't know if he goes
[33:46] Speaker 2: back to work. There wasn't anything written about that. But
[33:50] Speaker 2: by the time he gets home, I think he does
[33:51] Speaker 2: go back to work because when he gets home that night,
[33:55] Speaker 2: it's around nine or so o'clock or something. He's home alone.
[34:00] Speaker 2: And it was a couple of hours after he's gone
[34:02] Speaker 2: to sleep that she then lets herself in. She still
[34:05] Speaker 2: has the key. She lets herself in. Of course, we
[34:08] Speaker 2: know what happens then. But as you said, we don't
[34:12] Speaker 2: know what happened behind closed doors, but it must have
[34:14] Speaker 2: been pretty bad by that point.
[34:17] Speaker 1: Did she go to the police?
[34:19] Speaker 2: She also did, yeah.
[34:20] Speaker 1: So she's working at her. The same incident or same
[34:23] Speaker 1: buildup to the incident?
[34:24] Speaker 2: That's right. So around the same time, they're both building
[34:27] Speaker 2: up documentation on– She gets wind that he's taken an AVO,
[34:33] Speaker 2: and she wants to counter that. So she's calculating. And
[34:37] Speaker 2: she's gone around to friends that day to say– Look
[34:40] Speaker 2: what John's done to me. Look at this.
[34:43] Speaker 1: That's right. And I look at that from a homicide
[34:45] Speaker 1: detective's point of view, too. Tell me, what do you
[34:47] Speaker 1: make of that? That is the planning. She's setting up
[34:51] Speaker 1: her alibi. Look, I'm a victim. The whole thing. The scheming.
[34:55] Speaker 1: And clearly the courts have picked up on it and
[34:59] Speaker 1: the judges have picked up on it. But tell us
[35:02] Speaker 1: about that because that just gives you a sense of
[35:04] Speaker 1: I'm going to do something really bad, but this is
[35:06] Speaker 1: my ticket out.
[35:07] Speaker 2: Exactly.
[35:08] Speaker 1: So she was going around to people and keep showing bruises.
[35:12] Speaker 2: That's why I wonder what happened that Sunday. What did
[35:16] Speaker 2: she say to him that terrified him so much that
[35:18] Speaker 2: he would go to the point after all these years
[35:21] Speaker 2: of not taking action, he finally takes action. Something happened
[35:26] Speaker 2: that day where she knew. This is what she's going
[35:31] Speaker 2: to do. And he must have been aware of it because,
[35:35] Speaker 2: as you say, she's now planning her defense already. She's
[35:40] Speaker 2: already working out the narrative of her own victimhood, right,
[35:45] Speaker 2: which is how I see her manipulations.
[35:49] Speaker 1: Most definitely going around and telling people and all that.
[35:52] Speaker 1: So whatever plays out. Look, I told you I've been
[35:55] Speaker 1: telling people that he was assaulting me.
[35:57] Speaker 2: Yeah, he's been abusing me.
[35:58] Speaker 1: I was defending myself. Yeah. It is speculation and sometimes
[36:02] Speaker 1: you've got to speculate. But what was said or done
[36:05] Speaker 1: to him that scared him enough to go to the
[36:08] Speaker 1: police 24 hours before?
[36:09] Speaker 2: And to say that to his boss.
[36:11] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[36:12] Speaker 2: That was very telling.
[36:13] Speaker 1: I would imagine whether it was a physical threat with
[36:16] Speaker 1: a knife at his throat or something that she is–
[36:19] Speaker 1: because he was a little bit– he must have had
[36:22] Speaker 1: a sense of– or concerns. But he was a little
[36:25] Speaker 1: bit naive that he didn't see the warning signs beforehand,
[36:28] Speaker 1: but something has tipped it over for him to go
[36:31] Speaker 1: to the police.
[36:32] Speaker 2: And in those last 24 to 48 hours, yeah, absolutely.
[36:36] Speaker 1: And the scary part is, at that point in time,
[36:39] Speaker 1: she's made the decision, I'm going to do him.
[36:42] Speaker 2: She must have. That's why she was going around planning
[36:45] Speaker 2: all of these little stories and people, look what he's
[36:48] Speaker 2: done to me, look at the bruises on my chest
[36:52] Speaker 2: and She's videotaped her kids and sort of left it
[36:55] Speaker 2: as a message. Even her daughter asked her as she
[36:57] Speaker 2: leaves the house, she says, Mom, you're not going to
[36:59] Speaker 2: do anything, are you? You're not going to do anything
[37:01] Speaker 2: to Pricey. Right. So she had decided by that point
[37:06] Speaker 2: that this is going to be her payback.
[37:10] Speaker 1: Yeah, you're bringing things back to me from the book
[37:14] Speaker 1: that she went and videotaped her playing with her grandchildren
[37:17] Speaker 1: and daughters and just look at the perfect mother, perfect– Yeah,
[37:22] Speaker 1: role model. Yep. Again.
[37:25] Speaker 2: Yeah.
[37:25] Speaker 1: Setting up. Take him out to dinner.
[37:26] Speaker 2: Oh, look, I'm a good person. Yeah, that's right.
[37:28] Speaker 1: Manipulative. Yeah.
[37:30] Speaker 2: And so the courts, you know, the psychiatry, they rightly
[37:34] Speaker 2: picked up on that and said, you may have borderline
[37:36] Speaker 2: personality disorder, but you're very calculated. You knew what you
[37:40] Speaker 2: were doing. You planned this. You wanted to pay him back.
[37:43] Speaker 2: And of course, as we said earlier, this statement, how
[37:46] Speaker 2: she kills him, it was a giant F you, you know.
[37:50] Speaker 2: Didn't flee, didn't try to hide the body, wanted people
[37:53] Speaker 2: to find it, wanted to see the carnage that she
[37:56] Speaker 2: was capable of.
[37:57] Speaker 1: You said that he went to bed that night and
[38:01] Speaker 1: a couple of hours later she came in. I'm assuming
[38:04] Speaker 1: she still had keys or something.
[38:06] Speaker 2: Yeah, she did still have the keys.
[38:07] Speaker 1: We don't know exactly what's happened there, but crime scene
[38:10] Speaker 1: were there and saw it. He had been stabbed multiple
[38:13] Speaker 1: times in 30, 30.
[38:16] Speaker 2: 37 times. Yeah. And no defensive wounds. Yeah. Not a
[38:19] Speaker 2: single one. Okay.
[38:21] Speaker 1: So she's got him with a good shot first up
[38:23] Speaker 1: and he can't even defend himself.
[38:25] Speaker 2: Well, cause he's fleeing. He's fleeing the room. Yeah. And he's,
[38:29] Speaker 2: she chases him down the hallway.
[38:30] Speaker 1: Okay. That was interpretation from the crime scene. Officer that's
[38:35] Speaker 1: come in with a blood splatter. Yeah.
[38:37] Speaker 2: They could tell just from the pattern that this was
[38:40] Speaker 2: a man. He ran. He tried to turn on the lights.
[38:43] Speaker 2: You know, it was dark. She had seduced him, had
[38:46] Speaker 2: sex with him. Then he comes back in.
[38:49] Speaker 1: So even on that night?
[38:51] Speaker 2: On that night, yes.
[38:52] Speaker 1: So she's back to her old ways. I'll win you back.
[38:56] Speaker 2: She brings his defenses down. And I want to know
[39:00] Speaker 2: why did he do it? Why did he have sex
[39:03] Speaker 2: with her? Again, I'm thinking he was terrified and he
[39:07] Speaker 2: felt this was the only way that he could possibly
[39:11] Speaker 2: make it out of it. Because if he sort of
[39:14] Speaker 2: rejected her... and kicked her out, called the police.
[39:17] Speaker 1: That wasn't going to end well.
[39:18] Speaker 2: Was it?
[39:19] Speaker 1: No, no.
[39:19] Speaker 2: So I think that's why he let it happen because
[39:22] Speaker 2: she snuck in, got into bed with him, seduced him,
[39:26] Speaker 2: woke him up basically, and they had sex. Then he
[39:30] Speaker 2: got up afterwards, went to the bathroom to wash up,
[39:34] Speaker 2: have a wee, what have you. Then he comes back
[39:37] Speaker 2: to bed, lays back down, and that's when she attacks
[39:40] Speaker 2: and she stabs him in the chest. I think once
[39:44] Speaker 2: or twice at that point. Of course, the adrenaline now
[39:46] Speaker 2: kicks in. He leaps out of bed. And he tries
[39:50] Speaker 2: to turn on the light. They can see that there's blood.
[39:52] Speaker 2: She goes after him. She stays close behind and he
[39:56] Speaker 2: goes fleeing out of the bedroom, down the hallway. And
[39:59] Speaker 2: I've been to the house. I saw the inside. It
[40:03] Speaker 2: isn't a long hallway. To manage 37 stab wounds in
[40:08] Speaker 2: that small time frame, by the time he gets to
[40:11] Speaker 2: the door, she's right behind him and she's going at
[40:15] Speaker 2: him with such force. And it It's just, I can
[40:20] Speaker 2: imagine it. And it's one of these things you think,
[40:23] Speaker 2: my God, yeah, it gives you chills. So then he
[40:26] Speaker 2: makes it to the door. He just gets on the
[40:28] Speaker 2: door handle and opens it. He manages to open it.
[40:32] Speaker 2: But by then he's lost so much blood. He can't breathe.
[40:34] Speaker 2: His lungs have collapsed. His insides are all just, you know,
[40:39] Speaker 2: obviously in turmoil. And he collapses at the threshold. She's there.
[40:44] Speaker 2: She drags him back in, shuts the door. He's now
[40:48] Speaker 2: leaning against the wall. They could tell by all the
[40:51] Speaker 2: sort of blood on the wall there. And then she
[40:54] Speaker 2: finishes him off with stab wounds to the front. But
[40:58] Speaker 2: then he's pretty much gone because, again, there's no defensive wounds.
[41:02] Speaker 2: And he expires there, you know. Afterwards, she then gets
[41:09] Speaker 2: her knives. Well, we don't know if she then went
[41:12] Speaker 2: to the, she showered and then went to the bank.
[41:15] Speaker 2: Because remember, she goes to the bank and takes money
[41:18] Speaker 2: out of his account. Yeah, $ 1, 000 and then comes back.
[41:22] Speaker 2: So it's not clear what she did first.
[41:25] Speaker 1: What stage.
[41:25] Speaker 2: But yeah, then gets her knives, sharpens them, and then
[41:31] Speaker 2: proceeds to butcher his body. Yeah.
[41:33] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[41:34] Speaker 2: And with that, I felt that it was her at work.
[41:40] Speaker 2: You know, this is her skill. This is her on autopilot.
[41:43] Speaker 2: This is what you do with a corpse. She'd done
[41:46] Speaker 2: it hundreds of times before, perhaps thousands. I don't know,
[41:50] Speaker 2: because I know a lot of her work was in
[41:52] Speaker 2: the boning room.
[41:54] Speaker 1: She's separating the skin from the muscle.
[41:57] Speaker 2: That's right.
[41:57] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[41:58] Speaker 2: And she has seen enough of where they dress the animals.
[42:01] Speaker 2: And so part of dressing the animals, meaning removing the
[42:05] Speaker 2: skin and the organs is Part of the process is
[42:09] Speaker 2: once you get most of the skin off down to
[42:12] Speaker 2: around the neck, you have to decapitate the animal because
[42:16] Speaker 2: that's easier to then take the pelt off. Because at
[42:20] Speaker 2: first I thought, when you picture it, you think the
[42:23] Speaker 2: decapitation happens and then the skinning. But no, it's the
[42:28] Speaker 2: skinning that happens first. And to then remove the whole skin,
[42:32] Speaker 2: you have to take the head off. Yeah. So that,
[42:35] Speaker 2: to me, that tells me that she was in work mode,
[42:39] Speaker 2: that this was just a natural process for her.
[42:42] Speaker 1: And the time that she would have taken.
[42:45] Speaker 2: Apparently it took about 45 minutes to do that. Just
[42:49] Speaker 2: that process of the skinning. Of course, the whole act
[42:54] Speaker 2: that night was longer, but.
[42:57] Speaker 1: The fact she comes in, even like she could have...
[43:01] Speaker 1: come in and killed him straight off. But it's almost
[43:04] Speaker 1: like she got some satisfaction outside the sexual satisfaction about
[43:10] Speaker 1: having sex with him that night. Look, I've still got you.
[43:13] Speaker 1: I've got you in my control. He's thinking, oh, well,
[43:17] Speaker 1: she's back. He's walked away, dropped his guard down, and
[43:20] Speaker 1: then she- Very narcissistic. Yeah, yeah. Then she murders him.
[43:25] Speaker 1: The comment that the judge made in the sentencing, The
[43:28] Speaker 1: prisoner showed no mercy whatsoever to Mr. Price. The last
[43:31] Speaker 1: minutes of his life must have been absolute terror for him,
[43:35] Speaker 1: while for her they were moments of utter enjoyment. Judges
[43:39] Speaker 1: don't make those type of comments. That's an extreme comment.
[43:43] Speaker 1: It is. Describing the last minutes of his life as
[43:46] Speaker 1: utter terror.
[43:47] Speaker 2: Well, an extreme comment for an extreme crime scene.
[43:50] Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, we've talked about it. We don't have
[43:56] Speaker 1: to dig in any further, but- placing his head in
[43:59] Speaker 1: a pot with the vegetables, cutting off pieces of meat
[44:04] Speaker 1: from his buttocks to lay out on a table to
[44:09] Speaker 1: serve for the kids.
[44:10] Speaker 2: To his children, yeah, and she had little place names.
[44:14] Speaker 1: Yeah, so this is not just speculation. This is what
[44:16] Speaker 1: she set up.
[44:17] Speaker 2: That's right. That's what they found, yeah.
[44:19] Speaker 1: The evilness of it.
[44:20] Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
[44:21] Speaker 1: The boss, when he didn't turn up for work, contacted
[44:24] Speaker 1: police and police went round there, a concern for welfare.
[44:28] Speaker 1: And when they walked in, what were they confronted with?
[44:33] Speaker 2: So first they're looking, you know, they're knocking on the
[44:35] Speaker 2: door and trying to get a sense if somebody's in
[44:39] Speaker 2: there calling out his name. And one of them looks
[44:42] Speaker 2: through the kitchen window and and sees evidence of, okay,
[44:46] Speaker 2: there's keys there, there's a beer, there's a bag on
[44:49] Speaker 2: the table, and there's this funny-looking curtain hanging up there,
[44:52] Speaker 2: this wet curtain. And then they break in through the
[44:55] Speaker 2: back and proceed through the kitchen, because the back is
[45:02] Speaker 2: just adjacent to the kitchen, so you have to kind
[45:04] Speaker 2: of walk through the architrave there to get further into
[45:07] Speaker 2: the house. So the The police officer brushes this curtain
[45:12] Speaker 2: when he thinks it's a curtain. He brushes past it
[45:14] Speaker 2: and feels something's wet on his arm. And he looks
[45:17] Speaker 2: down and he realizes it's blood. And then he looks
[45:20] Speaker 2: up at this curtain and realizes it's not a curtain.
[45:23] Speaker 2: It's the skin. And he says to himself, oh my God,
[45:28] Speaker 2: she skinned him. So imagine you walk into a scene
[45:35] Speaker 2: and you find somebody's full skin. in one piece. What
[45:41] Speaker 2: do you do with that?
[45:43] Speaker 1: It would be hard to process, and I can only
[45:45] Speaker 1: imagine what went through the police officer's mind at the time.
[45:49] Speaker 1: And going in there concerned for welfare, you come across that,
[45:52] Speaker 1: you're still looking for the person that has done that. Yeah.
[45:57] Speaker 1: I'm not sure how any of the police that attended
[46:01] Speaker 1: the scene there really leave that behind them. It's something
[46:05] Speaker 1: you'd carry for a long time.
[46:06] Speaker 2: How do you cope with those things because you would
[46:08] Speaker 2: you'd have seen a lot of you know pretty horrific
[46:11] Speaker 2: things I imagine how does in the years because I
[46:15] Speaker 2: get haunted just from imagining something bad happening let alone
[46:18] Speaker 2: seeing something how does it how is it that police
[46:21] Speaker 2: officers and what with you that you are able to
[46:25] Speaker 2: not You're.
[46:26] Speaker 1: In work mode at the time. That served me well
[46:31] Speaker 1: in crime scenes. You see some horrific things, but you're looking, okay,
[46:35] Speaker 1: what is this telling me? So you're focused on doing
[46:38] Speaker 1: your job. That was, I suppose, a protection in a
[46:41] Speaker 1: lot of ways that, okay, I'm not going to take
[46:44] Speaker 1: in all the emotion of what I'm seeing here or
[46:47] Speaker 1: the horror. I'm taking in what I need to know
[46:49] Speaker 1: as a homicide detective. So that helped well. It catches
[46:54] Speaker 1: up to you sometimes when you've stepped away from it
[46:58] Speaker 1: and then you think, oh, shit, that's right. I remember
[47:01] Speaker 1: seeing that. The crime scene that you're describing here, and
[47:05] Speaker 1: I think this is what has confronted all of us,
[47:07] Speaker 1: is it's just at the extreme. I've seen body parts
[47:12] Speaker 1: spread around. I've seen the horrors of crime scene. But this,
[47:18] Speaker 1: and when I had Bob on and he was describing
[47:21] Speaker 1: how the officer went in and brushed up against the curtain.
[47:25] Speaker 1: You're in a high level of alert when you go
[47:27] Speaker 1: into a situation like that, concern for welfare. You don't
[47:30] Speaker 1: know what you're going to see. And then to have
[47:32] Speaker 1: something wet and cold brush on your skin and look
[47:35] Speaker 1: down and it's blood and then realize it's skin. I
[47:39] Speaker 1: would imagine they would have spoken to people after, the
[47:41] Speaker 1: psychologists and process through that. But Yeah, personally, and I've
[47:47] Speaker 1: spoken to a lot of police that have done the
[47:50] Speaker 1: nature of this work. And I think it is that
[47:52] Speaker 1: we're focused on the job that allows you to, yeah,
[47:57] Speaker 1: not get too dragged into it emotionally initially because you've
[48:00] Speaker 1: got a job to do.
[48:02] Speaker 2: That must take some honing over the years, right?
[48:04] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[48:04] Speaker 2: Because your first, like, what was your first really job?
[48:08] Speaker 2: Shocking scene.
[48:10] Speaker 1: I can smell one of the early ones where a
[48:14] Speaker 1: decomposing body in the boot of a car and I
[48:18] Speaker 1: can still access that smell 30 years down the track.
[48:23] Speaker 1: But it's something you do get desensitized. We talked about
[48:27] Speaker 1: in the abattoirs, the killing room or whatever. I suppose
[48:31] Speaker 1: you do become desensitized to it. You know the smells,
[48:34] Speaker 1: you know the sights, and you understand it. And that's
[48:38] Speaker 1: just the nature of the work. So you can process it.
[48:41] Speaker 1: But look, each job. I've seen people who have been
[48:45] Speaker 1: doing it for years and they go to one job
[48:47] Speaker 1: and whatever that is, that's triggered something in them or
[48:50] Speaker 1: tip them over their cups full and they hit the
[48:53] Speaker 1: wall with that. But yeah, it is a side that,
[48:58] Speaker 1: the horror side of the homicide investigations.
[49:01] Speaker 2: And to be in that line of work, like I
[49:04] Speaker 2: have a very good friend who's on the job in
[49:06] Speaker 2: New York, you know, and before he joined, because we
[49:09] Speaker 2: grew up together, he's like a brother.
[49:10] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[49:11] Speaker 2: And, you know, as we got older, he joined the force.
[49:13] Speaker 2: And before that, I never really thought much of the police,
[49:16] Speaker 2: you know, whatever. They're there. They're a force. Thank God
[49:19] Speaker 2: they're there sometimes. you wish they weren't. But my friend
[49:23] Speaker 2: told me, he said, you know, with this job, you're
[49:27] Speaker 2: dealing with people, right, at their worst, when they are
[49:30] Speaker 2: at their worst. And it really changes you in terms of,
[49:36] Speaker 2: trying to understand how people can treat each other the
[49:40] Speaker 2: way that they do when they do things too. And
[49:43] Speaker 2: I know for him, like he, he desensitized himself to
[49:46] Speaker 2: it for sure. But there were times I know that
[49:49] Speaker 2: he was haunted by some of the things that he
[49:51] Speaker 2: saw because he couldn't understand how do people treat each
[49:54] Speaker 2: other like this.
[49:55] Speaker 1: Yeah, I think every career police officer carries something. It
[49:59] Speaker 1: changes you. People ask me, would you recommend joining the police?
[50:03] Speaker 1: I say, yes, I enjoyed my time in the police,
[50:05] Speaker 1: but it will change you. Whether it changes you for
[50:07] Speaker 1: the better or worse, I don't know. But yeah, you
[50:11] Speaker 1: carry those things. Lose faith in people. Yeah. I think
[50:18] Speaker 1: this is a bit of an insight into the way
[50:19] Speaker 1: I go about my life. I think I'm a little
[50:21] Speaker 1: bit naive on the outside from policing because in policing,
[50:25] Speaker 1: I'm not trusting anyone. Everyone I'm speaking to, I'm looking,
[50:28] Speaker 1: what's this angle? What's that angle? And yeah, that's the
[50:31] Speaker 1: nature of the work. Then I get out back into
[50:34] Speaker 1: the world, my world, and I'm sort of naive to,
[50:38] Speaker 1: oh no, they're nice people because you want to see
[50:40] Speaker 1: some good in people. So I think that's probably why
[50:42] Speaker 1: I adopt that approach. But yeah, a Attending a job
[50:47] Speaker 1: like this would have a long-term impact on police officers
[50:51] Speaker 1: because it is at the extreme.
[50:53] Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah.
[50:55] Speaker 1: I wonder, like the neighbours in the area too, the
[50:58] Speaker 1: impact that that had on the community. Like it's something
[51:01] Speaker 1: that the community would have felt.
[51:04] Speaker 2: Well, it was a major stain on the community for
[51:07] Speaker 2: a long time, you know, and I don't think it
[51:11] Speaker 2: doesn't seem to me to have really recovered, you know,
[51:14] Speaker 2: not that, not, you know, not that Aberdeen is a
[51:16] Speaker 2: bad place. You know, I did travel there as part
[51:19] Speaker 2: of my research and people there were lovely. You know,
[51:22] Speaker 2: I had a drink at the top pub and went
[51:24] Speaker 2: to the RSL club and sort of just retrace the steps,
[51:27] Speaker 2: not much to do in that town. Um, so I
[51:30] Speaker 2: don't think it's really grown much more. Um, the average
[51:33] Speaker 2: war isn't there anymore. Um, but, um, Yeah, I think
[51:40] Speaker 2: it did for a long time really stain the community
[51:44] Speaker 2: because they were known for this Hannibal Lecter.
[51:46] Speaker 1: They've had a lot of murders up there and there
[51:51] Speaker 1: was a period in time in homicide in that Hunter
[51:54] Speaker 1: Valley area and all that that if someone had disappeared
[51:58] Speaker 1: up there, we'd lightheartedly say, oh, well, that's a murder.
[52:03] Speaker 1: We better head up there for whatever reason. There seemed
[52:07] Speaker 1: to be a spate of killings around those areas. I
[52:12] Speaker 1: know I've spent a lot of time up there investigating crimes.
[52:16] Speaker 2: Do you think because alcohol abuse and sort of that
[52:20] Speaker 2: kind of thing?
[52:20] Speaker 1: I look and it's not casting aspersions on that community.
[52:26] Speaker 1: You've got the city and I find a lot of crime,
[52:29] Speaker 1: a lot of work that I found in policing was
[52:32] Speaker 1: on Just those communities that are just outside the city.
[52:34] Speaker 1: So you've got people that have moved outside the city.
[52:37] Speaker 1: It's a little bit different. Population's more sparse, and there
[52:41] Speaker 1: seems to be things that happen just on– yeah, I'm
[52:45] Speaker 1: talking a couple of hours' drive from the city. Yeah.
[52:48] Speaker 1: We seem to get called to a lot of things
[52:50] Speaker 1: that occur there.
[52:52] Speaker 2: Maybe because there's less people, there's more opportunity.
[52:55] Speaker 1: Less people, there's– there's a beauty to living in an
[53:01] Speaker 1: environment like that, but it's also mundane too. So people
[53:04] Speaker 1: are doing the same thing day in, day out. So, um,
[53:07] Speaker 1: personalities can sort of be triggered by certain things. But
[53:11] Speaker 1: I do notice that, that a lot of work, we
[53:14] Speaker 1: have the work, the intensity of the city brings the
[53:17] Speaker 1: population living on top of each other. But then as
[53:20] Speaker 1: you go outside the cities where it's a bit more sparse, um, Yeah,
[53:26] Speaker 1: crime does happen and sometimes strange crimes. Yeah, yeah.
[53:29] Speaker 2: Stranger than in the city, I feel like.
[53:31] Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, the city, everyone's on top of
[53:35] Speaker 1: each other, so probably more crime in the city. But
[53:38] Speaker 1: out there- Stranger crime. A stranger type of crime because
[53:42] Speaker 1: you can get away with things and, you know, you
[53:44] Speaker 1: haven't got policing as much as they do in the city.
[53:47] Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah.
[53:48] Speaker 1: But, yeah, with this one- Mm-mm. She's charged, obviously. There
[53:56] Speaker 1: was a lot of media attention at the start, but
[53:59] Speaker 1: we were talking off camera. It probably didn't get the
[54:02] Speaker 1: attention perhaps we thought it should have been, and we're
[54:05] Speaker 1: trying to work out a reason there. We suggested it
[54:07] Speaker 1: was around September 11 in 2001. So the world was– well,
[54:13] Speaker 1: everyone was distracted with what happened there.
[54:17] Speaker 2: And the Olympics.
[54:18] Speaker 1: The Olympics, yeah, we're all still on the high from that.
[54:21] Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
[54:23] Speaker 1: Also the fact that she was arrested quickly. Like if
[54:28] Speaker 1: we were hunting.
[54:29] Speaker 2: Yeah, that's true.
[54:30] Speaker 1: Imagine if that crime scene was found by police and
[54:34] Speaker 1: it would have leaked to the media in some form
[54:37] Speaker 1: and there was a man hunt looking for a person
[54:39] Speaker 1: responsible for that type of carnage. That would have been
[54:43] Speaker 1: front and center in the media.
[54:44] Speaker 2: That's right, yeah. But they found her right away in
[54:47] Speaker 2: the back bedroom. Yeah, that's true. So there was no.
[54:50] Speaker 2: There wasn't much to kind of feed off of.
[54:53] Speaker 1: Yeah, the story's been told. Then once she's been charged,
[54:56] Speaker 1: it's a matter before the court so that limits the
[54:59] Speaker 1: amount that can be reported on. With the court matter,
[55:04] Speaker 1: a couple of things that I found interesting that the judge,
[55:08] Speaker 1: before the jury was impaneled when she pleaded not guilty
[55:12] Speaker 1: or was pleading not guilty, gave the potential jury members
[55:15] Speaker 1: an out that if this is too graphic for you,
[55:18] Speaker 1: you can, without any criticism or judgment, excuse yourself from
[55:22] Speaker 1: this because it's going to be very graphic in what
[55:24] Speaker 1: was shown to it.
[55:25] Speaker 2: So that sounds like that's a very rare thing to happen. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[55:28] Speaker 2: Because there are other crime scenes that obviously have some
[55:31] Speaker 2: gruesome details. Yes. But judges don't do that.
[55:34] Speaker 1: Judges don't do that generally. And so this shows the
[55:39] Speaker 1: extreme of it. Why do you think she pleaded guilty?
[55:44] Speaker 1: Because she was set for trial and so it was
[55:47] Speaker 1: leading up for trial, but then the last moment she's
[55:49] Speaker 1: entered a guilty plea. What was that about?
[55:51] Speaker 2: I think she didn't want to have to go over
[55:55] Speaker 2: all of the evidence and make it all public. I
[55:58] Speaker 2: think maybe her family had something to do with that. Yeah.
[56:02] Speaker 2: that they would now be exposed to rehashing the story.
[56:07] Speaker 2: Her children would hear all the gory details. It would
[56:10] Speaker 2: live in the papers much longer. I think that had
[56:15] Speaker 2: a lot to do with her changing her plea. I
[56:18] Speaker 2: also think that on some level, maybe she felt she'd
[56:23] Speaker 2: be rid of all the triggers. In her life, it's
[56:27] Speaker 2: the relationships that she's had with men That's all eliminated
[56:33] Speaker 2: in prison.
[56:35] Speaker 1: How old was she when she committed this murder? 44.
[56:38] Speaker 2: 44.
[56:38] Speaker 1: Okay. And she was seen, John, as the last chance
[56:42] Speaker 1: dance for the life that she was living to. Yeah.
[56:45] Speaker 1: That was part of it.
[56:46] Speaker 2: That's right. I think she saw the writing on the
[56:48] Speaker 2: wall that if I go through with this trial, it's
[56:51] Speaker 2: going to be all of the papers, all the details
[56:54] Speaker 2: are going to be out. My children are going to
[56:56] Speaker 2: be exposed to it, my siblings, my family. I think
[56:59] Speaker 2: at that point she just thought, I'll have more peace
[57:04] Speaker 2: in here. You know, at least the triggers will be removed.
[57:07] Speaker 2: That's my speculation for trying to work out, well, why
[57:10] Speaker 2: go from not guilty to guilty? And I sort of
[57:13] Speaker 2: constructed a scene where she's talking to her twin sister, Joy,
[57:17] Speaker 2: and her brother. And we know that they were absolutely
[57:22] Speaker 2: shocked by the case. They just couldn't believe that she
[57:24] Speaker 2: would do something like that. And so I sort of
[57:27] Speaker 2: imagined a scene where that realization hits her that, you know,
[57:32] Speaker 2: this is hurting my family, my children, and I'm just
[57:35] Speaker 2: going to be dragged through, you know. I mean, she
[57:39] Speaker 2: needed to take responsibility, you know, and I think she
[57:43] Speaker 2: wanted to do that quietly.
[57:46] Speaker 1: Even when she did, she was, because, just because someone
[57:50] Speaker 1: pleads guilty, there is still hearings as such in the
[57:54] Speaker 1: court for sentencing and the evidence has got to be
[57:57] Speaker 1: presented so the judge can make his findings. Mm-hmm. She
[58:01] Speaker 1: asked to be excused when the crime scene videos were
[58:04] Speaker 1: being played. And I admire the judge and it would
[58:08] Speaker 1: have been an easy out for him to say, yes,
[58:10] Speaker 1: you can be excused. But the judge made a decision that, no,
[58:14] Speaker 1: she's going to sit here and watch it with the
[58:15] Speaker 1: rest of us. As a video walkthrough that we do
[58:20] Speaker 1: in crime scenes, we're showing where the skin was hanging, um,
[58:24] Speaker 1: John's corpse or what was left of it and how
[58:27] Speaker 1: the tables were set and all that. So she would
[58:29] Speaker 1: have had to sit through that. Yeah. Yeah.
[58:31] Speaker 2: And then she had a bit of a, like a
[58:34] Speaker 2: theatrical breakdown.
[58:37] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[58:38] Speaker 2: Was it real? Did it really trigger her or was
[58:41] Speaker 2: it her just faking it? Don't know. But it happened
[58:44] Speaker 2: that as this was playing out, she increasingly got more agitated.
[58:49] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[58:52] Speaker 2: I felt it was maybe part of her manipulations. Who knows?
[58:55] Speaker 2: But then part of me thought, well, maybe it did
[58:58] Speaker 2: trigger some kind of psychotic response. I don't know.
[59:02] Speaker 1: Yeah. I'm not sure either.
[59:04] Speaker 2: She seemed like a very unreliable narrator or witness.
[59:08] Speaker 1: Sorry. Yeah. Look, I put her in and not just
[59:13] Speaker 1: the nature of the crime, the end crime that she's
[59:15] Speaker 1: serving life imprisonment for, but the lead up to it.
[59:19] Speaker 1: I've got a reasonable amount of empathy for people in
[59:23] Speaker 1: prison and people through whatever reasons have gone to prison,
[59:27] Speaker 1: they've made mistakes and there's people like that. But there's
[59:30] Speaker 1: a small percentage of prisoners in there that rot in hell. Yeah. Yeah.
[59:34] Speaker 2: That's where they belong.
[59:35] Speaker 1: I mean, yeah. If we just focus on John Price,
[59:40] Speaker 1: he was a decent person for all intents and purposes
[59:43] Speaker 1: and just got involved in a relationship with the wrong person.
[59:47] Speaker 1: And the pain that she causes not just for John,
[59:50] Speaker 1: he's lost his life, but the family living with this. Yeah. Yeah.
[59:55] Speaker 1: I think that's quite often missed in homicide. It's not
[59:58] Speaker 1: just one life effect, it's a ripple effect. Many.
[1:00:02] Speaker 2: And it's one thing to lose a loved one, another
[1:00:07] Speaker 2: to have that loved one murdered, but another thing altogether
[1:00:11] Speaker 2: to have them butchered the way. I just can't imagine
[1:00:16] Speaker 2: if that were me to think that that's how my
[1:00:19] Speaker 2: father or my brother or, you know, went down like
[1:00:23] Speaker 2: that to have been slaughtered and butchered and skinned. I just,
[1:00:27] Speaker 2: the pain that that would have caused his family would
[1:00:30] Speaker 2: just be unbearable.
[1:00:32] Speaker 1: Well, I can't even, I can't comprehend it, how to
[1:00:36] Speaker 1: process that. And yeah, the other victims in this, I suppose,
[1:00:40] Speaker 1: are her children. Yeah. Yeah. Living with this. Our mother is, yeah,
[1:00:47] Speaker 1: such an evil person. She's capable of crime like that.
[1:00:51] Speaker 2: Yeah.
[1:00:52] Speaker 1: Lessons learned from your research on it, and I was
[1:00:56] Speaker 1: thinking about it last night on, okay, when we're talking
[1:01:03] Speaker 1: about a crime of this nature, the thing I took
[1:01:06] Speaker 1: away from it is about the fact that it's a
[1:01:09] Speaker 1: woman perpetrating these acts of domestic violence, and we've got
[1:01:13] Speaker 1: to be just as vigilant, even though it's less frequent,
[1:01:19] Speaker 1: but we've got to be just as vigilant when a
[1:01:21] Speaker 1: female I agree. I agree.
[1:01:23] Speaker 2: I think, well, one of the things that I wanted
[1:01:26] Speaker 2: to say about that panel show that I forgot to
[1:01:30] Speaker 2: mention is that this was, you know, I'd been talking
[1:01:32] Speaker 2: to these men and some in tears and they laid
[1:01:37] Speaker 2: out their history and the story and the things that
[1:01:39] Speaker 2: they were suffering through. And so I brought all of this,
[1:01:42] Speaker 2: you know, these case studies to the executives and said,
[1:01:46] Speaker 2: here's the story. And they wouldn't touch it. They just
[1:01:49] Speaker 2: would not touch it because they said, well, women are
[1:01:54] Speaker 2: the ones that really represent the highest number of, the
[1:01:58] Speaker 2: percentages of women is so big that it's so minuscule
[1:02:03] Speaker 2: when it comes to men that it's not even worth touching.
[1:02:06] Speaker 2: And I just thought, oh, well, this is just what
[1:02:09] Speaker 2: we hear of. And just because it's a small number,
[1:02:12] Speaker 2: does it mean that we can't highlight it? Anyway, so
[1:02:15] Speaker 2: I think you're right because it's a You know, it's
[1:02:17] Speaker 2: not insignificant. 12% is a good, you know, that's not insignificant.
[1:02:22] Speaker 2: Out of all of Australia, 12% is a sizable, you know.
[1:02:27] Speaker 2: But I think what it tells you is that domestic
[1:02:30] Speaker 2: violence isn't really about gender so much as it is
[1:02:34] Speaker 2: about power and control, you know. And that's the, for me,
[1:02:38] Speaker 2: that was the takeaway of this because she, killed like
[1:02:41] Speaker 2: a man you know she murdered like a man her
[1:02:45] Speaker 2: patterns of abuse were more physical but behaviors associated with
[1:02:50] Speaker 2: with men so it's really power and control women and
[1:02:54] Speaker 2: i'm sure you know this you know when they kill
[1:02:57] Speaker 2: it's a on the whole it's a lot quieter yeah
[1:03:01] Speaker 2: it's less messy they tend to use methods like poison
[1:03:04] Speaker 2: they're motivated by money and they and they often target
[1:03:09] Speaker 2: the most vulnerable children or, you know, vulnerable adults or
[1:03:14] Speaker 2: elderly people. Um, and that's where the differences between male
[1:03:18] Speaker 2: and female killers generally is, but together it is about
[1:03:25] Speaker 2: power and control.
[1:03:26] Speaker 1: It's about the power and yeah, we've on this podcast and, uh,
[1:03:30] Speaker 1: we've been campaigning and talking about coercive control and improving
[1:03:35] Speaker 1: or adding legislation to, uh, assist with that. And, and,
[1:03:40] Speaker 1: It works with that. This is something that should not happen. And,
[1:03:43] Speaker 1: you know, sometimes, and I think we're choosing our words
[1:03:46] Speaker 1: carefully because we're going, men can be victims too. And
[1:03:48] Speaker 1: sometimes you get shouted down by people. How dare you
[1:03:50] Speaker 1: say that women are victims in the major times? 100%.
[1:03:56] Speaker 1: But we've got to look after everyone that's not selective.
[1:03:59] Speaker 1: And I feel sorry for all of the men in
[1:04:03] Speaker 1: her life. She's caused considerable pain to them.
[1:04:07] Speaker 2: They've all gone underground. For the most part, yeah. Their
[1:04:12] Speaker 2: lives were irrevocably changed after their association.
[1:04:17] Speaker 1: I dare say they all look back and think how
[1:04:20] Speaker 1: lucky I was because I'm sure there's situations. I don't know. Again,
[1:04:26] Speaker 1: you asked my thoughts from a homicide detective. I'm sure
[1:04:29] Speaker 1: there was moments in all four of those relationships where
[1:04:33] Speaker 1: The three previous relationships where their life was in the balance. Yes. Yeah.
[1:04:39] Speaker 1: I think she could have quite easily tipped over the edge. Absolutely.
[1:04:43] Speaker 2: I think that's very true. I think it's why you
[1:04:46] Speaker 2: see David Kellett left. Dave Saunders, he fled.
[1:04:51] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[1:04:52] Speaker 2: Never to resurface again. And Chillo as well. You know,
[1:04:55] Speaker 2: they all got to a point where, oh, this is
[1:04:58] Speaker 2: really dangerous. I need to get out of here.
[1:05:00] Speaker 1: This is dangerous.
[1:05:01] Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
[1:05:03] Speaker 1: Well, okay. The Butcher of Aberdeen, An Australian Story of Sex, Madness,
[1:05:09] Speaker 1: and Murder. I think that's an aptly titled book. Where
[1:05:15] Speaker 1: can people get it?
[1:05:17] Speaker 2: It's available at Dimmicks. It's available at Big W. It's
[1:05:21] Speaker 2: online at Amazon, Simon & Schuster, both Amazon US, Amazon UK,
[1:05:27] Speaker 2: not the, you know, sorry, Australia. And I think you
[1:05:31] Speaker 2: can order it through bookstores, yeah.
[1:05:33] Speaker 1: Well, our listeners like the true crime stories. This is
[1:05:37] Speaker 1: one that's from a former homicide detective. You got into
[1:05:42] Speaker 1: my head. And I think any book that gets in
[1:05:44] Speaker 1: your head is doing its job. So thanks. And I
[1:05:48] Speaker 1: know the effort you talked about, three years of research,
[1:05:50] Speaker 1: and I can see the effort that's gone into the
[1:05:52] Speaker 1: book to tell the story in a very readable and
[1:05:56] Speaker 1: understandable way. And what it's opened my eyes to is
[1:06:00] Speaker 1: all the steps leading up to this. And they're the
[1:06:02] Speaker 1: things that we're going to look out for when murders happen.
[1:06:05] Speaker 1: And like, if anyone's reading this book, it doesn't have
[1:06:08] Speaker 1: to be a police officer. It can be a member
[1:06:10] Speaker 1: of the public or someone in your family is experiencing
[1:06:13] Speaker 1: these type of things.
[1:06:15] Speaker 2: These are the signs.
[1:06:16] Speaker 1: These are the signs of potential. And that's the end result.
[1:06:20] Speaker 1: Have you got any other books in play?
[1:06:23] Speaker 2: I've got a couple things I'm thinking of. I won't
[1:06:26] Speaker 2: say what they are yet because one of them is
[1:06:29] Speaker 2: actually quite a big topic that's current at the moment,
[1:06:32] Speaker 2: but it's in the headlines. It fascinates me and I
[1:06:36] Speaker 2: kind of want to give it the same treatment. So
[1:06:38] Speaker 2: I'm seeing how that goes. But, yeah, I've got a couple.
[1:06:43] Speaker 1: Good. Well, we might have you back on. I'll prepare
[1:06:48] Speaker 1: myself before I read the book. Okay. Thanks very much
[1:06:51] Speaker 1: for coming in. I've enjoyed the chat and it's been
[1:06:54] Speaker 1: very enlightening.
[1:06:55] Speaker 2: Thank you very much for having me. Cheers.
[1:06:57] Speaker 1: Cheers. Cheers.
[1:06:58] Speaker 2: Cheers.

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