# Raised by neglect, punished by the system: Lincoln Tarrow-Lynch Pt. 1

An episode of [I Catch Killers with Gary Jubelin](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1506667049), 20 Jun 2026, 56 min.

Audio: https://p.podderapp.com/2544644999/traffic.omny.fm/d/clips/2fb3740d-3436-44af-8cc0-a91900716aa5/5bc8c2ed-b718-4f44-beb3-ac2a005246cc/37f36aad-896e-49dc-964c-b46e00331073/audio.mp3?utm_source=Podcast&in_playlist=786928c3-10c1-4cef-a7bf-ac2a005246d0

What happens when the system meant to protect a child chooses to punish them instead? Lincoln Tarrow-Lynch's earliest memory is watching his father being arrested. By five, his mother was in prison. By twelve, he was committing petty crime, living on the streets, and being abused by adults, yet the system kept sending him back to the danger it knew was there. In this episode of I Catch Killers, Gary sits down with Lincoln to trace the fault lines of a childhood shaped by neglect, abuse, and a justice system that criminalised a child who simply needed care. Lincoln's story challenges everything we think we know about youth crime. This episode contains references to child sex abuse and suicide. If you’re experiencing emotional distress, contact Lifeline on 13 11 14 anytime for crisis support and suicide prevention services. If you’ve been impacted by domestic, family or sexual violence, contact 1800 RESPECT on 1800 737 732 anytime for confidential information, counselling and support services. Subscribe to our new Youtube channel. Follow I Catch Killers: Instagram: @icatchkillers Tiktok: @icatchkillerspodcast Facebook: @icatchkillers See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

## Transcript

[0:01] Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.
[0:05] Speaker 1: Detective sy aside of life. The average person is never
[0:08] Speaker 1: exposed her I spent thirty four years as a cop.
[0:11] Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.
[0:14] Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a
[0:16] Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,
[0:20] Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.
[0:23] Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories
[0:26] Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw
[0:28] Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talked to. Some
[0:31] Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because
[0:34] Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.
[0:38] Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.
[0:46] Speaker 1: Lincoln Tarot Lynch's earliest memory was watching his dad get
[0:50] Speaker 1: arrested and fight with police when he was just five
[0:54] Speaker 1: years old. Police raided his home and his mum was
[0:57] Speaker 1: put in prison, at rested for the first time. How
[1:01] Speaker 1: do you think this story is going to end? Well? Today,
[1:05] Speaker 1: I sit down with the man himself and we find out.
[1:09] Speaker 1: Lincoln Taro Lynch, Welcome to I Catch Killers.
[1:12] Speaker 2: I thank you good to be here.
[1:14] Speaker 1: Well there's a lot of times that you wouldn't have
[1:20] Speaker 1: been thinking that you're going to be sitting down talking
[1:23] Speaker 1: on true podcast. Well, I saw you talk a couple
[1:27] Speaker 1: of years ago at the I think it was the
[1:30] Speaker 1: end of year Rainbow Lodge event, which is attended by judges,
[1:35] Speaker 1: politicians and a whole range cross section of the people,
[1:38] Speaker 1: and I remember your story from there. It was very powerful.
[1:42] Speaker 1: So looking forward to sitting down and speaking to youth crime.
[1:47] Speaker 1: It seems to be on the front page of the
[1:50] Speaker 1: papers and leads stories on the news across the country,
[1:54] Speaker 1: not just here in New South Wales. And when you
[1:59] Speaker 1: get that type of narrative, there's people that push back
[2:02] Speaker 1: and we need tougher scent and seeing we need crack
[2:05] Speaker 1: down on youth crime. Do an adult crime, do adult time?
[2:11] Speaker 1: A lot of ways of approaching it. What's your sense
[2:14] Speaker 1: in terms of youth crime when you hear that, do
[2:18] Speaker 1: you agree with it or you think we're approaching it
[2:21] Speaker 1: from the wrong.
[2:22] Speaker 2: I would definitely disagree with it, Yeah, but I understand
[2:25] Speaker 2: why people would I kind of react that way and
[2:28] Speaker 2: why there is that reaction because I guess it looks
[2:30] Speaker 2: scary and when you see images in the media of
[2:34] Speaker 2: you know, the different crimes being committed, and a lot
[2:36] Speaker 2: of it's been video recorded. It's scary and people want
[2:42] Speaker 2: to feel safe. And I don't know, when you hear
[2:45] Speaker 2: youth crime, I remember when I was a kid, it
[2:47] Speaker 2: was always the youth you use, always being targeted as
[2:50] Speaker 2: the people who to be scared of. And you know,
[2:54] Speaker 2: I heard someone talk, it was actually on Vince Talk yesterday,
[2:58] Speaker 2: the stats on youth crime that they've actually gone down.
[3:01] Speaker 2: But yeah, the media would say otherwise, and politicians seemed
[3:05] Speaker 2: to say otherwise. So and in terms of locking them up,
[3:08] Speaker 2: it just doesn't work.
[3:09] Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, well I know, and that's you know, we're
[3:13] Speaker 1: really going to dig into it with you about Yeah,
[3:16] Speaker 1: once you put someone in the system, it's very hard
[3:18] Speaker 1: for them to break out, absolutely with that, and you're
[3:21] Speaker 1: being there so you could attest to that. I saw
[3:25] Speaker 1: the submission you made to the Parliamentary inquiry that was
[3:28] Speaker 1: into youth justice and detention and I think it was
[3:32] Speaker 1: established last year, and the one thing that really resonated
[3:36] Speaker 1: with me that you said in your submission that you
[3:39] Speaker 1: put in was the system chose prosecution over protection, and
[3:45] Speaker 1: that really it sort of hit me in your story
[3:48] Speaker 1: because I've got a bit of an understanding of your story.
[3:51] Speaker 1: Chose prosecution over protection. Do you want to just break
[3:55] Speaker 1: that down where you were coming from with that, Well.
[3:57] Speaker 2: I guess it's in the way it's said. It's like,
[4:02] Speaker 2: you know, you find a young person and they're having
[4:06] Speaker 2: contact with the police because they've maybe committed a crime
[4:09] Speaker 2: or maybe they're doing something they shouldn't be doing, and
[4:14] Speaker 2: then the reaction is to maybe arrest them. Maybe whether
[4:19] Speaker 2: that means they go into prison or not, it's another thing.
[4:21] Speaker 2: But instead of like approaching them and saying, why is
[4:25] Speaker 2: this kid doing this? Why are they behaving the way
[4:28] Speaker 2: they are? Why is a ten or eleven year old
[4:30] Speaker 2: running around so angry, you know, and breaking the law
[4:34] Speaker 2: when other kids aren't doing that. And it's not because
[4:37] Speaker 2: that kid's a bad person or they're a criminal at heart.
[4:41] Speaker 2: It's because there's other things most likely going on at
[4:44] Speaker 2: home and they probably have been for a long time.
[4:47] Speaker 2: And whether that's like stuff related to poverty, or whether
[4:51] Speaker 2: it's related to like addiction at home maybe or other
[4:56] Speaker 2: factors that are meaning this child doesn't have the same
[5:00] Speaker 2: opportunities are the children and yeah, and their behaviors that
[5:04] Speaker 2: are a reflection of that.
[5:06] Speaker 1: Well, I don't think children set out to be bad,
[5:09] Speaker 1: of course they're not. Inherently you don't you know, you
[5:13] Speaker 1: don't get it. Crawl out of the coton go, I'm
[5:15] Speaker 1: going to create in this world. You're your shaped by
[5:19] Speaker 1: your environment, and we all need the role models and
[5:24] Speaker 1: parameters to point us in the in the right direction.
[5:26] Speaker 1: So that's why prosecution over protection really made me think
[5:30] Speaker 1: about the way we look at things. In your situation
[5:35] Speaker 1: that we're going to hear about, you needed protection. Prosecution
[5:39] Speaker 1: wasn't what. You needed someone to put an arm around
[5:42] Speaker 1: to it and look after you and steer you in
[5:44] Speaker 1: the right direction. And you didn't didn't get that. Let's
[5:48] Speaker 1: let's talk about your childhood. Where did you go?
[5:51] Speaker 2: So? I grew up predominantly in Wollongong. Ye a little
[5:54] Speaker 2: bit of time in Act, but yeah, most of my
[5:57] Speaker 2: young life was in.
[5:59] Speaker 1: Yeah, and what with family environment, siblings, parents, us through that.
[6:06] Speaker 2: So my dad was much older than my mom. Like
[6:09] Speaker 2: when they got together, he was in his late twenties,
[6:12] Speaker 2: she was seventeen. I think he'd been like, you know,
[6:16] Speaker 2: doing crime and stuff for some time. And yeah, mett
[6:20] Speaker 2: mum and she felt pregnant with me, And yeah, she
[6:24] Speaker 2: left him when I was pretty young, yep, and tried
[6:27] Speaker 2: to sort of do things byself. So I was mostly
[6:30] Speaker 2: raised by her. It was just Shan and I most
[6:33] Speaker 2: of the time. You know, she had boyfriends now and then,
[6:37] Speaker 2: but yeah, she was a single mom growing up in
[6:40] Speaker 2: the eighties when that was really frowned upon, and she
[6:43] Speaker 2: had no support from home either, so she did what
[6:48] Speaker 2: she could to survive. And sadly that for her meant
[6:54] Speaker 2: you know that she got tied up in the criminal
[6:57] Speaker 2: world as well, and you know, selling rugs and this
[7:00] Speaker 2: kind of thing. So that was the environment I grew
[7:04] Speaker 2: up in.
[7:05] Speaker 1: And I've read about. Yeah, your first first memory was
[7:09] Speaker 1: your father being arrested and fighting. That's your earliest child
[7:16] Speaker 1: childhood memory. So that would shape the way you think definitely.
[7:20] Speaker 1: And then at the time, I think you were five
[7:24] Speaker 1: when your mum got the rest and ended up getting
[7:27] Speaker 1: pulled away for two years, that's right. Did you have siblings?
[7:32] Speaker 2: No, it was just me, just me and her.
[7:34] Speaker 1: Okay, how like I'm trying to imagine that as a
[7:37] Speaker 1: five year old child. Look back at my children, how
[7:40] Speaker 1: innocent they are at that age. How did that make
[7:44] Speaker 1: you feel?
[7:46] Speaker 2: It's hard for me to know how I felt at
[7:47] Speaker 2: the time. I can think back to some of my
[7:49] Speaker 2: behaviors at the time and see the way I was
[7:51] Speaker 2: acting out, and yeah, it was just it was very confusing,
[7:55] Speaker 2: and obviously the arrest with Mom I can remember a
[7:59] Speaker 2: lot more vivid than the one with Dad, and it
[8:03] Speaker 2: was it was kind of actually something like you'd see
[8:05] Speaker 2: in the movies, you know, like where they where the
[8:07] Speaker 2: police kind of all rushed in and ripped the house apart,
[8:12] Speaker 2: and I just remember that, you know, the house being
[8:14] Speaker 2: torn apart, and then the next minute Mum was gone,
[8:16] Speaker 2: you know.
[8:17] Speaker 1: So then you're sitting there, probably police looking after you.
[8:20] Speaker 1: Initially you've never those are the people that from the
[8:23] Speaker 1: early age you've probably feared because it exactly come stormy
[8:26] Speaker 1: storming into your house. What what was done with you
[8:29] Speaker 1: at that point?
[8:30] Speaker 2: So I stayed with different family members for a while. Yeah,
[8:34] Speaker 2: some of which were better than others caring for me.
[8:37] Speaker 2: You know. One was an auntie who was actually really
[8:40] Speaker 2: good and that was kind of a stable period, I guess,
[8:44] Speaker 2: you know, she really cared for me and which I
[8:46] Speaker 2: look back on with some fondness. And another was a
[8:49] Speaker 2: grandparent who wasn't so it wasn't a good environment.
[8:53] Speaker 1: When you say that, what type of the type of
[8:55] Speaker 1: things were happening, Just.
[8:57] Speaker 2: Just a bit neglect for which messages little kids had
[9:00] Speaker 2: up and it expected because that was my That was
[9:03] Speaker 2: the same person that had been abusive to mum as
[9:06] Speaker 2: well growing up, So it makes sense that he wasn't
[9:07] Speaker 2: going to be great with me again.
[9:09] Speaker 1: This is the type of things that just carry on
[9:12] Speaker 1: from generation to generation. Did you experience any abuse in
[9:17] Speaker 1: those environments, not just the emotional abuse and neglect? How
[9:24] Speaker 1: long did you go back to your mom after she
[9:27] Speaker 1: got out of prison?
[9:28] Speaker 2: Yeah, which I did. So she did some time in
[9:31] Speaker 2: prison and then went to rehab for a little bit
[9:33] Speaker 2: and then we got back together. Kind of interesting stories.
[9:36] Speaker 2: She was actually meant to do a little bit more
[9:38] Speaker 2: time in that, but there was the Minister for Corrections
[9:42] Speaker 2: at the time. I don't know if you remember the
[9:44] Speaker 2: Rex Jackson. I think his Yeah. Yeah, so yeah, so
[9:47] Speaker 2: there was a thing where and I can say this
[9:49] Speaker 2: now she's passed, so it doesn't really matter. Yeah, so
[9:52] Speaker 2: the people she was working for paid him off to
[9:56] Speaker 2: have her sense introduced.
[9:57] Speaker 1: So okay, as bizarre as that sound, my recollection of
[10:01] Speaker 1: the historical situation. Rex Jackson was at Correctney Services, that's
[10:05] Speaker 1: the minister, and I think he ended up getting exposed
[10:10] Speaker 1: for taking money for early releases prisoners.
[10:13] Speaker 2: And yeah, she benefited from that. Thankful for Mom. She
[10:17] Speaker 2: was the ones that the ones that benefited.
[10:19] Speaker 1: Which was well from the fact that she was connected
[10:21] Speaker 1: to people, had the ability to reach out to the
[10:24] Speaker 1: minister tells you the sort of the way she was
[10:27] Speaker 1: living a life.
[10:28] Speaker 2: Sure does.
[10:29] Speaker 1: So the period of five five to twelve talk us through.
[10:33] Speaker 2: Yeah that, you know, look at that period, I kind
[10:37] Speaker 2: of I really looked up to Mum at that point.
[10:40] Speaker 2: You know, she was more like an older sister than
[10:42] Speaker 2: a mum to me. I never called her mum. I
[10:44] Speaker 2: always called her by her first name, right, I've never
[10:47] Speaker 2: I never referred to her as mom ever, you know,
[10:49] Speaker 2: and not until as an adult. And yeah, I looked
[10:54] Speaker 2: up to her. But she she really suffered, like she
[10:56] Speaker 2: really suffered with addiction. She had like able car accident
[11:01] Speaker 2: and had a lot of chronic pain and then you
[11:04] Speaker 2: know all the abuse and stuff that she had as
[11:06] Speaker 2: a kid and growing up. I blamed her so much,
[11:11] Speaker 2: you know, Yeah, absolutely, I was like, why doesn't she
[11:15] Speaker 2: love me the way I see other people being loved
[11:18] Speaker 2: or the way you think your parents meant to love you. Yeah,
[11:21] Speaker 2: And it wasn't until I was older and had my
[11:23] Speaker 2: own problems that you realized. I went, oh, okay, so
[11:27] Speaker 2: she was just a you know when I thought she
[11:29] Speaker 2: was an adult, she was in the twenties. Yeah, you know,
[11:31] Speaker 2: and she was really suffering too. And that doesn't mean
[11:36] Speaker 2: that the neglect and abuse didn't happen, but it just
[11:39] Speaker 2: means to understand you.
[11:40] Speaker 1: You understand where it's coming from. What about schooling did
[11:43] Speaker 1: you have it regular schooling? Did you have not?
[11:45] Speaker 2: Really? School was pretty so we moved around a lot.
[11:48] Speaker 1: Yeah, still around the Woollongong.
[11:51] Speaker 2: Yeah, different act, but every six months we'd move. So
[11:55] Speaker 2: back then, you know, when you were selling drugs, you
[11:58] Speaker 2: moved regularly because people would know where you lived, so
[12:01] Speaker 2: you'd have to move regularly. So for us, we moved
[12:05] Speaker 2: every six months because of that really, and that was
[12:08] Speaker 2: either generally to a completely different area.
[12:12] Speaker 1: Did you have any role models anyone that showed you
[12:15] Speaker 1: love and direction?
[12:17] Speaker 2: Not really, like my grandmother really cared for me a lot,
[12:23] Speaker 2: but yeah, that was something I definitely struggled with, and
[12:26] Speaker 2: especially male role models. There was there was no voids. Yeah,
[12:29] Speaker 2: and that was something that I definitely struggled with growing up,
[12:32] Speaker 2: trying to find my identity as a male.
[12:34] Speaker 1: Yeah, so moving a round comes with that. It's only
[12:39] Speaker 1: inherent complications that not being able to form friendship and relationships,
[12:46] Speaker 1: and that your submission that you did to the Parliamentary Inquiry,
[12:49] Speaker 1: as I said at the start, it was very powerful.
[12:52] Speaker 1: And I'm going to read a couple of things out
[12:55] Speaker 1: from there because I just think that and then I'll
[12:57] Speaker 1: get you to talk about it. And I'm looking at
[13:01] Speaker 1: my notes here and I said that I'm reading through
[13:04] Speaker 1: this it just made me sad, disappointed, and even angry.
[13:07] Speaker 1: So cool from the submission that you've made to Parliament.
[13:12] Speaker 1: I was only twelve when I was arrested for the
[13:14] Speaker 1: first time for minor property damage. By then, I'd already
[13:18] Speaker 1: been failed by schools, child services, police and adults. I
[13:22] Speaker 1: had trusted multiple opportunities to get me the help I
[13:26] Speaker 1: needed had been missed. I remember when I first arrested,
[13:30] Speaker 1: I was living in a tin shed in a backyard
[13:32] Speaker 1: with a pile of blankets for a bed. Police knew
[13:35] Speaker 1: I was being abused, but they still returned me to
[13:37] Speaker 1: the dangerous home after they arrested me. That's heavy.
[13:42] Speaker 2: Yeah, And it's interesting for me when I hear that.
[13:48] Speaker 2: It kind of doesn't seem like anything to me. And
[13:50] Speaker 2: then I have to try and think about what that
[13:53] Speaker 2: sounds like for other people, you know. And I think
[13:57] Speaker 2: about my friends who have got young kids that are
[14:00] Speaker 2: the same age now, you know, and I look at them,
[14:02] Speaker 2: and that's when it really hits me, when I say
[14:04] Speaker 2: another twelve year old and I go, fuck, They're like,
[14:08] Speaker 2: they're just a little kid, yeah, you know. And yeah,
[14:11] Speaker 2: like for me, the reason I was in that shed
[14:16] Speaker 2: was because it was unsafe in the house, you know,
[14:18] Speaker 2: So that was actually that was a place of refuge
[14:23] Speaker 2: for me to go to. Yeah, I just I felt
[14:26] Speaker 2: very unwelcome in the home. So for me, that was
[14:29] Speaker 2: a place of refuge.
[14:30] Speaker 1: The tin shed with a pile of blankets for a bed.
[14:34] Speaker 1: What concerns me is that the police knew I was
[14:36] Speaker 1: being abused, but they still return me to a dangerous
[14:39] Speaker 1: home after they arrested me. Not blaming individuals, I'm talking
[14:44] Speaker 1: the system here. It is a failing, isn't it. Like
[14:47] Speaker 1: I look at it and think, Okay, why have we
[14:50] Speaker 1: got this so wrong?
[14:51] Speaker 2: And you know what, sometimes when I when I used
[14:55] Speaker 2: to think about it, I thought, O, well, maybe this
[14:57] Speaker 2: is because that was back then. Things are different now,
[15:00] Speaker 2: and I think, oh, well, that only happened because it
[15:02] Speaker 2: was you know, different years ago, a different time, and
[15:06] Speaker 2: then now working in the industry and working in and
[15:10] Speaker 2: realizing it's not it hasn't changed, you know. And even
[15:14] Speaker 2: though that people know that things should be done better
[15:17] Speaker 2: and that children should be cared for, the same thing
[15:20] Speaker 2: is still happening. You know. We're still locking up hundreds
[15:23] Speaker 2: of kids and putting them in prison, and we're not
[15:27] Speaker 2: caring for the children that actually need to be cared for.
[15:30] Speaker 2: And like I said, we're punishing them. And for me
[15:32] Speaker 2: that in the way the police took me back to
[15:35] Speaker 2: that environment, that was punishment, you know, because I was
[15:39] Speaker 2: told you're a bad person, you're doing something wrong, and
[15:43] Speaker 2: you need to change your behavior.
[15:45] Speaker 1: And it's almost a cry for help, and it would
[15:49] Speaker 1: be so confusing, And that's what makes me sad, thinking
[15:53] Speaker 1: of what's the mind of a twelve year old and
[15:56] Speaker 1: when the narrative is let's crack down on crime and
[15:59] Speaker 1: all that, what, Yeah, what hope has a child got
[16:05] Speaker 1: growing up in an environment like that with no role
[16:07] Speaker 1: models being abused. And I can imagine that the type
[16:10] Speaker 1: of people that your mum would have been attracting coming in.
[16:14] Speaker 1: And it's just I saw that in policing. I saw
[16:17] Speaker 1: the horrible results in homicide that the new man coming
[16:22] Speaker 1: into coming into the environment, It's true, just has a
[16:26] Speaker 1: dislike for the kids. For the kids. It's almost like
[16:28] Speaker 1: that animalistic animal kingdom like lions killing off the coves
[16:34] Speaker 1: of the other lines.
[16:35] Speaker 2: That's true because no man wants to support another man's child,
[16:38] Speaker 2: you know what I mean. And they're seen as a threat,
[16:40] Speaker 2: and that's that's kind of biological.
[16:42] Speaker 1: Well not not good men or not the proper proper men.
[16:47] Speaker 1: I read out, read out another another quote again because
[16:51] Speaker 1: it's so powerful. Six months later, I was found by
[16:56] Speaker 1: police living on the streets, forced to starve to escape
[17:00] Speaker 1: from further abuse at home, but no support was provided
[17:03] Speaker 1: to me. There was no curiosity from police about why
[17:06] Speaker 1: such a young child would choose the street save a shelter,
[17:09] Speaker 1: no questions about what was going on for me, and
[17:11] Speaker 1: that no attempt to make sure I had food in
[17:14] Speaker 1: the safe place to sleep. Police for return me to
[17:17] Speaker 1: an environment they knew was dangerous I was immediately violently assaulted.
[17:22] Speaker 2: It was repetitive and it happened. I could barely live
[17:27] Speaker 2: in cant how many times, you know. I remember another
[17:30] Speaker 2: time being taken home by the police and being punched
[17:32] Speaker 2: in the face in front.
[17:33] Speaker 1: Of the police, in front of the police, you know, And.
[17:36] Speaker 2: That was acceptable because I was, like I said, I
[17:38] Speaker 2: was a bad person, and I think that, you know.
[17:42] Speaker 2: And I as an adult, I don't hate police, and
[17:46] Speaker 2: as in my twenties, I never had that kind of
[17:50] Speaker 2: hatred towards police. As a kid, I definitely did.
[17:52] Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, and it was what I was taught,
[17:55] Speaker 1: was the environment.
[17:56] Speaker 2: Absolutely, I was taught to do that. But I understand
[17:58] Speaker 2: that when you're interacting with people, even if they are children,
[18:02] Speaker 2: and that person swears at you and tells you to
[18:05] Speaker 2: fuck off and cause your names, and you just see
[18:08] Speaker 2: them and you see their behaviors, it's understandable at face
[18:12] Speaker 2: value to not like that person, yeah, because you go,
[18:15] Speaker 2: this seems like a bad person. But I think it
[18:19] Speaker 2: does take effort for curiosity to go why is this
[18:24] Speaker 2: person doing what they're doing? And I don't know if
[18:26] Speaker 2: that's something that is taught in policing or not, well,
[18:29] Speaker 2: but it needs to be.
[18:30] Speaker 1: Yeah, you've made me reflect, and I think there's times
[18:33] Speaker 1: when early in the police and where I would have
[18:36] Speaker 1: taken kids home and I can hear the parents yelling
[18:39] Speaker 1: at the kid or whatever, but there was a judgment call.
[18:42] Speaker 1: I hope to think that, Okay, well this is normal discipline.
[18:47] Speaker 1: But yeah, the curiosity will why is he running away
[18:52] Speaker 1: the whole time? And we talk about child's sexual abuse
[18:56] Speaker 1: and you're not saying that, but I look back and
[19:00] Speaker 1: think of all these troubled kids and wonder what you've
[19:02] Speaker 1: been inside. You've been in prison, and you see how
[19:04] Speaker 1: many people are in there, men and women, because of
[19:09] Speaker 1: something that's happened to them in the past. But yeah,
[19:12] Speaker 1: the role of policing protect or prosecute twelve year old kid,
[19:17] Speaker 1: It's true, it's a hard thin.
[19:21] Speaker 2: And that was something I don't know if you wanted
[19:23] Speaker 2: to touch on it, but that second time when they
[19:25] Speaker 2: took me back, I'd literally just been sexually assaulted, you know, right,
[19:31] Speaker 2: So I'd gone back out onto the streets and because
[19:36] Speaker 2: I thought that was safer than being at home, and
[19:40] Speaker 2: I was trying to escape what was going on at home,
[19:43] Speaker 2: and I'd been missing for months and the police had
[19:47] Speaker 2: been looking for me for some time, and no one
[19:49] Speaker 2: knew where I was, and yeah, I ended up at
[19:52] Speaker 2: a refuge, like a children's refuge. Yeah, and some young
[19:57] Speaker 2: boys took me out to the park and me drunk
[20:00] Speaker 2: and one of them sexually abused me, right, and then
[20:05] Speaker 2: going back to the refuge. A couple of days later,
[20:07] Speaker 2: the people at the refuge found out that police were
[20:10] Speaker 2: looking for me, yeah, and basically said to me, like,
[20:13] Speaker 2: you know, you need to go back home. Will you
[20:16] Speaker 2: go back home and meet that age saying I'm not
[20:20] Speaker 2: going to go back home. But I told them I'd
[20:22] Speaker 2: go back home, and they gave me a bus fare
[20:24] Speaker 2: and said, okay, make your way back home, and how
[20:28] Speaker 2: are we I was twelve twelve, Yeah, and so I
[20:31] Speaker 2: just ran again basically, And then it was probably about
[20:34] Speaker 2: a month after that police found me. And again there
[20:37] Speaker 2: was like if ever, there was a time where there
[20:41] Speaker 2: should have been some you know, curiosity into what's going
[20:45] Speaker 2: on and what's happened to this kid? Like after being
[20:49] Speaker 2: missing for months and I didn't see a doctor, I
[20:52] Speaker 2: didn't see a psych no one.
[20:54] Speaker 1: I was going to ask you that. I was just thinking,
[20:57] Speaker 1: how would police steal with that okay, we've called the
[20:59] Speaker 1: run away kid. And it was always about okay from
[21:05] Speaker 1: a policing point of view, And it doesn't sound good
[21:06] Speaker 1: when I say it, from a policing point of view.
[21:09] Speaker 1: How can we take our responsibility away from this week
[21:12] Speaker 1: and we put the kid that not to be further harmed,
[21:16] Speaker 1: put the kids safe. But I can't recall in all
[21:20] Speaker 1: my time in policing someone saying, hey, we need a
[21:22] Speaker 1: psychologist to sit down and have a chat with this child.
[21:29] Speaker 1: I'd like to think we've got a little bit wiser now,
[21:32] Speaker 1: but I see how it just catches up a couple
[21:36] Speaker 1: of things that I pick up on that your father's
[21:40] Speaker 1: lawyer advise you not to seek bail when you're in
[21:43] Speaker 1: detention at one stage because it was safe for being
[21:45] Speaker 1: on the streets. What was that about?
[21:48] Speaker 2: Yeah, well again, so you know this was after this
[21:52] Speaker 2: is a bit later on in life now, about fifteen sixteen,
[21:55] Speaker 2: and I was homeless again. And yeah, at that point,
[22:02] Speaker 2: I was literally starving. And I'm not even joking, like
[22:04] Speaker 2: I'm not exaggerating. You know, I was living in a
[22:08] Speaker 2: squat with a bunch of other guys and we had
[22:12] Speaker 2: we had zero money, you know, and we were. It
[22:15] Speaker 2: was like a really intense and desperate, desperate sort of
[22:21] Speaker 2: situation that we're living in, you know. And I'm also
[22:25] Speaker 2: really really angry, you know, and we all felt like
[22:27] Speaker 2: the system had failed us, and you know, we thought
[22:30] Speaker 2: that it was everyone else's fault. And yeah, and so
[22:34] Speaker 2: you know, we'd done some breaking enters to steal food,
[22:38] Speaker 2: and then we did a robbery, you know, myself and
[22:40] Speaker 2: about four other guys did a robbery. And yeah, it
[22:46] Speaker 2: was a horrible, horrible situation, a horrible thing to do situation.
[22:52] Speaker 1: The Sultan rob someone on the street.
[22:54] Speaker 2: There was a store, yeah, and you know, we went
[22:57] Speaker 2: in in the morning, a newsagent, you know, and yeah,
[23:02] Speaker 2: I'll tell the story. It's really it's definitely not something
[23:04] Speaker 2: I'm proud of at all, you know. But we walked
[23:07] Speaker 2: in and I punched him, thinking I was going to
[23:10] Speaker 2: knock him out and then we're just going to take
[23:12] Speaker 2: the money and cigarettes and whatever else was there. And yeah,
[23:16] Speaker 2: but he didn't get knocked out straight away, you know.
[23:18] Speaker 2: And then one of the other fellows, fellows I was
[23:21] Speaker 2: we just really gave it to him and we robbed
[23:23] Speaker 2: a place and then we left and it wasn't long
[23:27] Speaker 2: after that we were arrested, and I think it was
[23:29] Speaker 2: pretty obvious that maybe we'd had something to do with it,
[23:32] Speaker 2: because we've been causing so much trouble in that neighborhood
[23:35] Speaker 2: for some time, you know. And yeah, so we were arrested,
[23:38] Speaker 2: and that's when I went into juvenile the first time,
[23:42] Speaker 2: you know. And that's when my dad's lawyer. I'd reached
[23:46] Speaker 2: out to my dad. I really wasn't in contact with
[23:48] Speaker 2: him very much, but I knew he had a lawyer,
[23:50] Speaker 2: and you know.
[23:51] Speaker 1: So I reached out.
[23:53] Speaker 2: Oh absolutely, Yeah, he's probably maybe twenty years or yeah,
[23:57] Speaker 2: robbery and fraud and all that kind of stuff. Yeah, Yeah,
[24:00] Speaker 2: So I reached out to him, and he just said, look,
[24:02] Speaker 2: you're better off staying in there because you've gotten able
[24:04] Speaker 2: to live, you know, so it's better just to stay
[24:08] Speaker 2: where you are, you know. And I can kind of
[24:11] Speaker 2: see where he was coming from, yeah, because look at
[24:14] Speaker 2: where I was. I had no food, I had nothing.
[24:16] Speaker 1: Tell us about to give us sense because most people
[24:19] Speaker 1: we hear of kids living on the street and all that,
[24:23] Speaker 1: but tell us about your experience, like, Okay, you've got
[24:26] Speaker 1: nowhere to go, you're twelve thurther and fourth and that
[24:30] Speaker 1: it doesn't matter, the world's a scary place. And when
[24:33] Speaker 1: the sun goes down and everyone's gone to their home,
[24:38] Speaker 1: talk us through your thinking and the life of a
[24:41] Speaker 1: kid on the street.
[24:44] Speaker 2: I'll say the first. The first thing, and this is
[24:47] Speaker 2: like something that pervades every moment of every day, is
[24:53] Speaker 2: the loneliness. You know, like you're very very lonely because
[24:58] Speaker 2: you know that something that is needed is missing. You know,
[25:02] Speaker 2: you don't have the care and the love that you're
[25:05] Speaker 2: meant to have, so you feel very alone. Besides, you know,
[25:12] Speaker 2: besides like what's going on an emotional level, you're looking
[25:16] Speaker 2: to do anything you can do to take that feeling away,
[25:18] Speaker 2: which generally is drugs and alcohol. When it comes to
[25:24] Speaker 2: what you do at nighttime, you're looking for somewhere wane
[25:27] Speaker 2: to sleep, you know, and somewhere safe to sleep. And
[25:30] Speaker 2: generally you find other kids to hang out with, you know,
[25:34] Speaker 2: not adults because they're more dangerous, you know, So you
[25:38] Speaker 2: find other kids to hang out with.
[25:40] Speaker 1: And just on that, you know, the adults are dangerous
[25:43] Speaker 1: because they'll take advantage of you.
[25:45] Speaker 2: Absolutely, yeah, they might. They could do anything to you,
[25:48] Speaker 2: you know.
[25:49] Speaker 1: So and where do you find these kids around? Like
[25:54] Speaker 1: I know, you will. The homeless kids always seem to
[25:58] Speaker 1: gravitate and how what's your How do you find them each?
[26:02] Speaker 2: I'm guessing it's like just networking. You know, you see
[26:05] Speaker 2: other kids and you recognize each other. Yeah, you know
[26:08] Speaker 2: as being homeless, and someone will kind of take you
[26:11] Speaker 2: under their wing, you know, when a new kid comes
[26:13] Speaker 2: under the street, other kids will kind of take them
[26:16] Speaker 2: under their wing and come and say live with us,
[26:19] Speaker 2: and they teach you how to survive. And you know,
[26:23] Speaker 2: for me at twelve, that was learning things like sleeping
[26:28] Speaker 2: under trees at night because it was warmer, you know,
[26:31] Speaker 2: or sleeping underneath cars to keep the like the rain
[26:35] Speaker 2: or the cold off. And these are things that a
[26:38] Speaker 2: normal kid that has a home doesn't know to do.
[26:41] Speaker 1: So And I would imagine Woongonge camera during the winter.
[26:45] Speaker 2: This is camera. It was freezing.
[26:47] Speaker 1: Yeah, it was cold. Yeah, so you could seriously die
[26:51] Speaker 1: out it was freezing there. So how many how many
[26:55] Speaker 1: people did you hang around with?
[26:58] Speaker 2: Used to? There will be points would be nearly as yep. Yeah,
[27:02] Speaker 2: look between a dozen, and you'd usually kind of pair up,
[27:06] Speaker 2: you know, you'd find a mate or something and that'd
[27:07] Speaker 2: be yeah, your buddy that you'd kind of rely on
[27:11] Speaker 2: and you'd actually you'd really rely on each other.
[27:14] Speaker 1: Did you have to like break in the houses or
[27:17] Speaker 1: factories or shops to find the place to sleep? Yeah,
[27:21] Speaker 1: that would be absolutely attractive option.
[27:24] Speaker 2: And it was hard in the city because there's less
[27:26] Speaker 2: of that kind of to get in take. Yeah. Sometimes,
[27:31] Speaker 2: like one of the older kids would go and try
[27:34] Speaker 2: and rent a property, which we knew we wouldn't, no
[27:37] Speaker 2: one would rent to them. But then we'd leave windows
[27:39] Speaker 2: open and then and then go at night and break
[27:42] Speaker 2: in and sleep and then try and get out before
[27:44] Speaker 2: anyone came back in the morning. That was probably that
[27:47] Speaker 2: was probably the nicest place to sleep. Yeah, if we
[27:50] Speaker 2: could ever do that. Otherwise it was just stairwells and
[27:54] Speaker 2: that kind of thing. Yeah, car park stairwells. People.
[27:56] Speaker 1: Would you'd start to see a group like that, And
[28:01] Speaker 1: did you have anyone other than the police pay attention
[28:04] Speaker 1: to you from a way of helping helping you guys?
[28:08] Speaker 2: And that's that's the most bizarre thing when I look back.
[28:10] Speaker 2: You know, we would spend so much time at youth
[28:15] Speaker 2: centers in the daytime, you know, because they were like
[28:18] Speaker 2: a place to hang out and it was accepting of
[28:20] Speaker 2: us in the daytime, but not once did anyone reach
[28:24] Speaker 2: out to me and say, like, have you got someone
[28:27] Speaker 2: to live tonight? Yeah? You know, it was like it
[28:30] Speaker 2: was like at five o'clock the doors shut and their
[28:32] Speaker 2: job was over.
[28:33] Speaker 1: And you were carrying your worldly possessions in a bag
[28:38] Speaker 1: and no source of income.
[28:42] Speaker 2: None, Yeah, other than shoplifting and selling what it ma shoplift.
[28:47] Speaker 1: So the life you're painting isn't isn't very attractive. But
[28:50] Speaker 1: you're saying that was a better option than them being
[28:53] Speaker 1: at home.
[28:53] Speaker 2: It was, Yeah, And that's the I guess that's the
[28:58] Speaker 2: most tragic thing, isn't it. That's that was a better option,
[29:02] Speaker 2: and it actually was. I mean, the the sexual assault
[29:08] Speaker 2: definitely made it not a better option, you know.
[29:14] Speaker 1: But sexual assault stem from you've been in a use refuge.
[29:20] Speaker 1: But because I was homeless, right, and then there was
[29:23] Speaker 1: someone there to look after that sexually.
[29:27] Speaker 2: One of the other kids, other kids, Yeah, one of
[29:28] Speaker 2: the other older older boys there. Yeah.
[29:31] Speaker 1: I suppose they're probably acting out because to them as well, they've.
[29:35] Speaker 2: Learned exactly and not really messed with me.
[29:38] Speaker 1: Any of the people that you were associated back then
[29:41] Speaker 1: didn't make it through.
[29:42] Speaker 2: Or absolutely example, that was so that was so common
[29:46] Speaker 2: to even as a young teenager, and to know that
[29:52] Speaker 2: people were going to be dying, that was like really common,
[29:55] Speaker 2: and it was it was expected that you ago in
[30:00] Speaker 2: a year's time that person might not be alive. Yeah,
[30:03] Speaker 2: I remember one really sad. One was a there was
[30:08] Speaker 2: a young boy Downiable and Gone who there was a
[30:11] Speaker 2: big thing Downable and Gone at the time where it
[30:13] Speaker 2: was one of the ex mayors down there, Frank r.
[30:18] Speaker 2: He'd been involved in child sex trafficking and.
[30:23] Speaker 1: I remember when he was murdered.
[30:25] Speaker 2: That's right. So I knew those boys who did that, right, Yeah,
[30:28] Speaker 2: I knew one of them from that time when I
[30:31] Speaker 2: was on the street, you know. And yeah, so the
[30:34] Speaker 2: one of one of the boys that he'd done that too,
[30:38] Speaker 2: killed himself, you know, and hung himself under a bridge,
[30:41] Speaker 2: you know. So it was, yeah, you just knew that
[30:44] Speaker 2: kids some kitchens couldn't take it. It was just too
[30:47] Speaker 2: much for some people, and that that's.
[30:49] Speaker 1: Not the toot of the thing. You should, yeah feel
[30:53] Speaker 1: that this party at that time. And then you've got
[30:57] Speaker 1: someone like the Frank r. Kels, supposedly a person in
[31:01] Speaker 1: the position of power.
[31:03] Speaker 2: So much power.
[31:04] Speaker 1: Yeah, well he met the grousome day.
[31:06] Speaker 2: He sure did. And the sad thing is those boys
[31:08] Speaker 2: that did it still went to jail, and you know,
[31:11] Speaker 2: ultimately they're the ones who still suffered, which is really
[31:14] Speaker 2: really sad.
[31:16] Speaker 1: Did any of the kids progress through it and then
[31:19] Speaker 1: come back and say, hey, there's another way? Did Like
[31:23] Speaker 1: I'm I'm trying to clutch on hope, but did you
[31:27] Speaker 1: get any role models? That's sort of not.
[31:29] Speaker 2: Back then it was too you know, I continue moving
[31:32] Speaker 2: around a lot, and I've lost contact with most people.
[31:35] Speaker 2: I think back to those kids sometimes, you know, and
[31:37] Speaker 2: wonder how they went, and I really hope they did,
[31:40] Speaker 2: know how I feel like a little family, you know.
[31:43] Speaker 1: How looking back at those times, what are the things
[31:47] Speaker 1: that could have put the circuit breaker in the direction
[31:50] Speaker 1: your your life was heading him? What do you think
[31:52] Speaker 1: that made a difference?
[31:53] Speaker 2: For sure? So and I guess this is like the
[31:57] Speaker 2: things I'm about to say now, is the same for
[32:00] Speaker 2: the other kids currently that are going through the same thing,
[32:03] Speaker 2: you know, And it's like wrap around community services, you know,
[32:08] Speaker 2: to firstly to provide accommodation if they need accommodation, if
[32:12] Speaker 2: it's kids that are homeless, if it's kids that have
[32:15] Speaker 2: just left home and finding out what's going on at home.
[32:18] Speaker 2: Is it a problem where the parents are the problem
[32:21] Speaker 2: or is it something else? And if it's something else,
[32:24] Speaker 2: can we get them back home. It's like, yeah, supporting
[32:28] Speaker 2: them if they've got mental health stuff going on, because
[32:32] Speaker 2: a lot of their kids running away have got mental
[32:33] Speaker 2: health or maybe they're realizing that they're queer and their
[32:39] Speaker 2: parents aren't accepting. And that's a lot of homeless kids
[32:42] Speaker 2: like that, you know, because their parents aren't accepting of that,
[32:44] Speaker 2: and they're either their parents kick them out, they're running away.
[32:47] Speaker 2: They're actually kicked.
[32:48] Speaker 1: Out, well, the parents are loathing, shame on them and exactly.
[32:52] Speaker 2: So if that's the case, it's getting them into services
[32:54] Speaker 2: that understand that and can support them like that, and
[32:59] Speaker 2: it's not criminalizing them and saying that we need to
[33:04] Speaker 2: care for them and not criminalize them.
[33:07] Speaker 1: What about you charged by police. We've sort of had
[33:11] Speaker 1: a look at how the police handle it. But then
[33:14] Speaker 1: it goes to court. There's another opportunity for the system
[33:19] Speaker 1: to really go hold what's going on here. In fact
[33:21] Speaker 1: that it's probably set up better than the police. Absolutely,
[33:25] Speaker 1: do you find anyone when you kept appearing before the court,
[33:28] Speaker 1: did anyone I.
[33:30] Speaker 2: Had a juvenile justice officer who was actually really good.
[33:33] Speaker 2: And when I say he was good, I felt like
[33:36] Speaker 2: he genuinely cared, which was something that no one else did,
[33:40] Speaker 2: and that meant a lot to me. You know. That's
[33:42] Speaker 2: something that really meant a lot, and it's something I
[33:45] Speaker 2: carried with me for a long time, is something that
[33:47] Speaker 2: really had helped. But that care could only go so far,
[33:52] Speaker 2: you know, And it's not like I could move in
[33:54] Speaker 2: with him, you know what I mean. So I still
[33:56] Speaker 2: needed somewhere to live, and I was going to crisis refugees.
[34:01] Speaker 2: That's where I've been bailed, to crisis refuges. But for me,
[34:05] Speaker 2: my experience in that, in the refuge I went to
[34:08] Speaker 2: at that time, it was really like it was like
[34:14] Speaker 2: tree arch, Yeah, you know, it was like we'll just
[34:17] Speaker 2: try and manage things, but not actually heal anything.
[34:23] Speaker 1: And that's that's interesting. So there's an attempt but from
[34:27] Speaker 1: a person that's been through that didn't think a del
[34:31] Speaker 1: wasn't enough.
[34:31] Speaker 2: It wasn't enough and for me personally, which and this
[34:35] Speaker 2: isn't the case for all people going into this kind
[34:37] Speaker 2: of situation, but it's definitely something to be mindful of.
[34:41] Speaker 2: It's the it's who are you employing to look after
[34:44] Speaker 2: these kids? Because for me, that wasn't another time where
[34:48] Speaker 2: I was abused again, So.
[34:50] Speaker 1: Talk us through that what happened there?
[34:53] Speaker 2: So, so, yeah, I was living in this crisis refuge
[34:57] Speaker 2: and there was counseling made available to all the kids there,
[35:02] Speaker 2: which on the face of it seems like a really
[35:05] Speaker 2: good thing, and in the right circumstances could have been
[35:08] Speaker 2: a good thing. But for me, this counselor basically groomed
[35:13] Speaker 2: me from from the start, you know. And I'd opened
[35:16] Speaker 2: up to him about the assault that had happened with me,
[35:19] Speaker 2: you know, and that and he was actually the first
[35:22] Speaker 2: person I told about it, and I opened up to
[35:27] Speaker 2: him and let him know that, like I was questioning
[35:31] Speaker 2: my sexuality and stuff. So I really opened up to
[35:33] Speaker 2: this guy, you know, And yeah, and he just really
[35:36] Speaker 2: took advantage of that, and and that led to, yeah,
[35:40] Speaker 2: to more abuse.
[35:42] Speaker 1: That's because if you're that way inclined as a predator
[35:47] Speaker 1: to abuse abuse kids, it's just the perfect environment. Wasn't
[35:53] Speaker 1: vulnerable vulnerable exactly? Kids teenagers coming into an environment environment
[36:00] Speaker 1: like that? What did that do for your trust of
[36:03] Speaker 1: the system?
[36:03] Speaker 2: And that Yeah, that that caused so many issues for
[36:09] Speaker 2: me growing up, you know, and that really really stuck
[36:11] Speaker 2: with me. Firstly, it meant that I was acting out,
[36:17] Speaker 2: you know, and some my behavior had gone from bad
[36:20] Speaker 2: to worse becoming violent. Yeah, you know, I was already
[36:24] Speaker 2: a I was already had a very short temper and
[36:27] Speaker 2: prone to violence, but now it was just gone to
[36:29] Speaker 2: another level where anything anyone would do or say, I
[36:32] Speaker 2: would just react, you know, and and you know, breaking
[36:36] Speaker 2: windows around the refuge and breaking things and screaming at
[36:39] Speaker 2: people and threatening people and obviously they're not going to
[36:42] Speaker 2: accept that kind of behavior and basically just exited me immediately.
[36:47] Speaker 1: Then you're back out.
[36:48] Speaker 2: So I was back homeless again and breaking bail and
[36:51] Speaker 2: you know so, and I suppose the stuff at the
[36:55] Speaker 2: time weren't to understand what was going on with me.
[36:56] Speaker 2: They just seeing my behaviors.
[36:59] Speaker 1: At that point in time with all the damage. And
[37:02] Speaker 1: I say, it's damage that's been done to you at
[37:05] Speaker 1: that point in time, because we've still got you in
[37:07] Speaker 1: that fifteen sixteen age. Is there any way or anything
[37:13] Speaker 1: that you think could have stepped into Yeah, I think
[37:17] Speaker 1: so steer you around. What would you propose because I
[37:22] Speaker 1: bring it back to what we started about let's get
[37:25] Speaker 1: tough on crime, and we could look at you and
[37:27] Speaker 1: look at your history and put him in jail. You
[37:30] Speaker 1: have had your chances, but you're inside.
[37:34] Speaker 2: I can see that because I was a threat to
[37:37] Speaker 2: the people around me.
[37:38] Speaker 1: Yeah, and that is that is a public sentiment, and
[37:42] Speaker 1: we touched on it earlier. They're scared, they're worried about
[37:45] Speaker 1: about about crime. So you can understand where they're coming from.
[37:49] Speaker 1: But let's just take a step back and look at
[37:52] Speaker 1: it from a different, different way. What could have been
[37:55] Speaker 1: done for you at that stage It may have made
[37:57] Speaker 1: a difference.
[37:59] Speaker 2: And I think before I say what I think could
[38:01] Speaker 2: be done, I think when you see a young person
[38:04] Speaker 2: whose behavior is so bad and they are acting up
[38:07] Speaker 2: so much, and the ones that we're saying, like, this
[38:10] Speaker 2: kid is so bad, we're going to put them in jail.
[38:13] Speaker 2: This is about two hundred, bit over two hundred kids
[38:16] Speaker 2: in jail currently.
[38:18] Speaker 1: In South jail, in prison, children's prison, children's prison.
[38:22] Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, so there's about two hundred and forty or
[38:25] Speaker 2: something like that kids in New South Wales prison. Those
[38:28] Speaker 2: are the kids that if it gets to that point,
[38:31] Speaker 2: they're the ones that we say, Okay, what do we
[38:34] Speaker 2: what something's gone wrong here? Yeah? I mean this is
[38:37] Speaker 2: not this is not normal for it to progress this far. Yep.
[38:41] Speaker 2: So they're the ones where we go, Okay, these are
[38:44] Speaker 2: the ones that really need care, and I think the
[38:47] Speaker 2: only way to turn a child like that around. And
[38:51] Speaker 2: they are children. Remember, like we're talking about children.
[38:55] Speaker 1: We forget that, Yeah, the children, right when you when
[39:00] Speaker 1: you look back at Yeah, I look back at my
[39:03] Speaker 1: life and think I thought I knew what the world
[39:05] Speaker 1: was at the sixteen. I knew jack shit. Even when
[39:09] Speaker 1: you're early twenties, you still don't know what last life's about.
[39:12] Speaker 1: So yeah, we'll hold on to that thought that we're
[39:15] Speaker 1: talking children. Okay, So it's a child that has gone
[39:19] Speaker 1: off off the rails for a whole range of reasons.
[39:22] Speaker 1: And you've given, by way of an example, why you
[39:25] Speaker 1: went off, which to me seems perfectly normal. If I
[39:29] Speaker 1: went through what you went through, it I be doing
[39:33] Speaker 1: what you were doing.
[39:34] Speaker 2: I would imagine There's two things will happen. You'll you'll
[39:38] Speaker 2: really push back like I yet, or you'll kill yourself.
[39:40] Speaker 1: Yeah, you'd just be completely broken, that's yeah. So okay,
[39:45] Speaker 1: So getting back to what we could do.
[39:47] Speaker 2: Yeah, so I think that's a perfect example of we
[39:50] Speaker 2: need to care for that kid, that child, Yeah, you know,
[39:54] Speaker 2: and there's already some services operating in I know, there's
[39:58] Speaker 2: one in red Phone called weave Think just got some
[40:01] Speaker 2: really good statistics and results and reducing reciptism of young
[40:07] Speaker 2: people down to like really really like single digits compared
[40:12] Speaker 2: to like above fifty percent recipitism. And there's we need
[40:17] Speaker 2: services that are culturally appropriate. A lot of these kids
[40:21] Speaker 2: that are going into indigenous kids, so it needs to
[40:23] Speaker 2: be culturally appropriate, and it needs to be genuine care.
[40:27] Speaker 2: And like when I said, when I look at that
[40:29] Speaker 2: juvenile justice officer, I had, he genuinely cared and that
[40:32] Speaker 2: made a difference. So we need genuine care and the
[40:37] Speaker 2: support needs to match what that child needs. So that's
[40:40] Speaker 2: it is psychological. A big part of it is therapy
[40:43] Speaker 2: if that's what they need, and it's connecting them to
[40:46] Speaker 2: community in a healthy way, giving them role models, you know,
[40:49] Speaker 2: other people that have made it out, you know, and
[40:52] Speaker 2: modeling good behavior. It's you know, showing them that there's
[40:56] Speaker 2: another possibility and that there's another future if they are
[41:01] Speaker 2: able to to put one foot in front of the other,
[41:05] Speaker 2: getting back to school, you know, and maybe they need
[41:08] Speaker 2: a tutor, but it's a lot. They need a lot
[41:11] Speaker 2: of care. But it's cheaper than sending them to.
[41:14] Speaker 1: Prison fiscally, like if we just sold it on the
[41:18] Speaker 1: financially viable, a lot cheaper. I see the work that
[41:22] Speaker 1: Shane Phillips does. We've Tribal Warrior and clean Slate without prejudice,
[41:26] Speaker 1: and like they've been doing that for a long time
[41:29] Speaker 1: and it's been working and changing lives.
[41:33] Speaker 2: But another one, healing the Warrior.
[41:35] Speaker 1: Yeah, it's doing that stuff, all those ones that are
[41:39] Speaker 1: doing it, and I know they run on the smell
[41:42] Speaker 1: of an oily rag half half the time. So when
[41:45] Speaker 1: we talk about money and we need we need Vince
[41:48] Speaker 1: here or Claude because they've got all the fact they've
[41:50] Speaker 1: got all stats and figures, will dial back to them.
[41:53] Speaker 1: But I think I've heard the figure of something like
[41:55] Speaker 1: two hundred thousand dollars a year to keep a child
[41:58] Speaker 1: in custody.
[41:59] Speaker 2: I think it's more.
[42:00] Speaker 1: Yeah, Well, okay, I'm high because I think it's yeah,
[42:03] Speaker 1: because I was surprised how it was a lot higher
[42:07] Speaker 1: than keeping an adult in custody for twelve months. So okay,
[42:11] Speaker 1: let's throw in two hundred and fifty thousand for each
[42:14] Speaker 1: child in custody. Oil Lot could be provided with money
[42:20] Speaker 1: instead of having one child in custody, and then the
[42:23] Speaker 1: chances of being in a juvenile detention center, the likelihood
[42:28] Speaker 1: of them going into adult prison.
[42:31] Speaker 2: It's very very likely. I can't remember the stats off
[42:33] Speaker 2: the top of my head, but it's more than fifty percent.
[42:35] Speaker 2: I think its about eighty percent.
[42:36] Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it's up that high.
[42:39] Speaker 2: So I just won't mention one thing too, just in
[42:42] Speaker 2: case people don't realize that the age of criminal responsibility
[42:46] Speaker 2: in New South Wales currently is ten years old. Yes, yeah, yeah,
[42:50] Speaker 2: ten years old. What ten year old knows the difference
[42:53] Speaker 2: between right and wrong to start with? And if they've
[42:57] Speaker 2: got all this stuff going on at home and they've
[42:59] Speaker 2: got all these the other issues going on, how can
[43:02] Speaker 2: they make sound decisions and then be responsible for their behavior?
[43:06] Speaker 1: And you hear campaigning and I think it's Coensland more
[43:10] Speaker 1: so than New South Wales, but talking about lowering the
[43:13] Speaker 1: age of criminal cropability. I'm not sure for ten. So
[43:18] Speaker 1: you can't be charged under ten, but you can be
[43:20] Speaker 1: charged over ten if you're over ten years at age.
[43:24] Speaker 1: If you knew what you did was wrong. So I
[43:26] Speaker 1: think that goes up to up to fourteen. But you've
[43:31] Speaker 1: changed my thinking in that protection or prosecution and just
[43:37] Speaker 1: that one sort of sentence makes a big difference, doesn't
[43:41] Speaker 1: It does because we and I'm looking from the you know,
[43:46] Speaker 1: I've still got the gene running running through me. Okay,
[43:50] Speaker 1: if they've done the crime, we're going to lock them up,
[43:51] Speaker 1: put them before the courts, and then move on to
[43:53] Speaker 1: the next one.
[43:54] Speaker 2: Because it's a system we trust, and we put trust
[43:57] Speaker 2: in that system to do the right thing to keep
[44:00] Speaker 2: us safe. You know, it has that idea that when
[44:03] Speaker 2: people are dangerous, we want them out of the community.
[44:07] Speaker 1: And like the crime that you said that you're embarrassed by,
[44:10] Speaker 1: Like a crime like that happened now, that would be
[44:13] Speaker 1: on the front page of the paper, and it would
[44:15] Speaker 1: probably be video images of four of you storming into
[44:19] Speaker 1: a newsagent with a balola bala clav is on and
[44:22] Speaker 1: assaulting the shop owner. Leads story. But when you did it,
[44:28] Speaker 1: it would have I don't think it would Yeah, it
[44:31] Speaker 1: would have just got to mention, Okay, So we're saying
[44:35] Speaker 1: there should be a better way. I look at I
[44:39] Speaker 1: see these, you know, and people say, why are you
[44:43] Speaker 1: rewarding people for being bad, you know, where you see
[44:45] Speaker 1: kids being taken out to the bush to camp and
[44:50] Speaker 1: learn respect with good people. I see benefits in that
[44:54] Speaker 1: type of thing. I don't if a kid that's a
[44:57] Speaker 1: troubled kid, and if we start looking at not a
[45:00] Speaker 1: bad kid, the troubled troubled kid, we're putting effort into
[45:04] Speaker 1: steering them in the right direction. It has to be beneficial.
[45:07] Speaker 2: I agreed. And when they say like rewarding bad behavior,
[45:11] Speaker 2: I don't think there's any kid that is going to
[45:13] Speaker 2: like do some kind of crime then get taken on
[45:16] Speaker 2: a camp and then put two and two together and go,
[45:19] Speaker 2: I was rewarded for that. They're separate things, you know, and.
[45:22] Speaker 1: That's true, you're not smoking.
[45:24] Speaker 2: They're going to look at it as a separate thing,
[45:25] Speaker 2: and they're going to they're just going to take it
[45:27] Speaker 2: for what it is. And I was thinking about this
[45:30] Speaker 2: before coming in and because a lot of people might
[45:32] Speaker 2: think this is like a right left kind of thing,
[45:34] Speaker 2: you know, when it comes.
[45:36] Speaker 1: To crackdown all the yeah, and.
[45:40] Speaker 2: I actually don't think it's a right left thing. I
[45:43] Speaker 2: try and be a bit I do try and understand
[45:46] Speaker 2: what's happening on both sides of these kind of arguments
[45:49] Speaker 2: and try not to argue about it. And for me,
[45:53] Speaker 2: I think that even if you don't care about young people,
[45:56] Speaker 2: or you don't care about disadvantage people and you're just
[46:00] Speaker 2: really couldn't give a shit. Even if you're like that,
[46:04] Speaker 2: it's still not going to help your community to put
[46:07] Speaker 2: young people in prison or even adults in prison the
[46:10] Speaker 2: way we're doing it now, because the receivitism rates like
[46:14] Speaker 2: the rates of people coming out and going back in,
[46:17] Speaker 2: like fifty percent of people that go to prison go
[46:20] Speaker 2: back if once they're released, they go back in within
[46:22] Speaker 2: twelve months. If they're going back in, that means they're
[46:25] Speaker 2: committing another crime. So we're trying to we had that
[46:30] Speaker 2: same police out of police your way out of crime
[46:33] Speaker 2: or punish your way out of crime. It just does not.
[46:35] Speaker 1: Well, you can't, I agree, And I say that there's
[46:39] Speaker 1: spending most of my career in the police. You can't
[46:41] Speaker 1: arrest your way out.
[46:42] Speaker 2: Of there, and it's so expensive. And I'm not saying stop
[46:47] Speaker 2: or prison like, I don't believe that. I just think
[46:50] Speaker 2: that when people are there, it's an opportunity, even as adults,
[46:55] Speaker 2: to turn their life around. Give people a chance to
[46:57] Speaker 2: get educated while they're there. Give them a chance so
[47:00] Speaker 2: when they come out they've got the resources and the
[47:02] Speaker 2: skills not to go back, because currently they come out
[47:06] Speaker 2: and most like half a release of homelessness.
[47:08] Speaker 1: Yeah, it makes a lot of It makes a lot
[47:11] Speaker 1: of sense. And when we're talking kids, if they haven't
[47:15] Speaker 1: got the protection that we think all kids, all kids deserve,
[47:21] Speaker 1: that's where society has got to step up. Now. People
[47:24] Speaker 1: could be listening to this conversation you and I talk
[47:26] Speaker 1: and what are these fun it's on about, like someone
[47:29] Speaker 1: will be saying, you've got to crack down. If they
[47:30] Speaker 1: do the crime, punish them. Okay, it's not about getting
[47:36] Speaker 1: tough on crime, it's getting smart on Crime's I'd love
[47:41] Speaker 1: to say it was my thoughts, but it didn't. It
[47:43] Speaker 1: came from Ken Marslow, whose son was murdered in a robbery.
[47:49] Speaker 1: He formed enough is enough. Ken's sadly passed away, but
[47:54] Speaker 1: I would often have these discussions with him because when
[47:57] Speaker 1: his son was murdered, he was the one marching on
[48:00] Speaker 1: Parliament demanding for mandatory sentencing, and this should happen, that
[48:03] Speaker 1: should happen. How that evolved over a twenty year period
[48:08] Speaker 1: can start to realize, well, hold it, that's the anger
[48:13] Speaker 1: is destroying me, it's not making it making a difference.
[48:17] Speaker 1: And if we try to prevent crime, that's getting smarter
[48:21] Speaker 1: on crime, not getting tougher on crime. And if you
[48:24] Speaker 1: get smarter on crime, there's less victims. People that are
[48:28] Speaker 1: going to jump on us for saying we're trying to
[48:29] Speaker 1: get too soft, we're trying to reduce victims.
[48:32] Speaker 2: And that's exactly the point I'm making it, And I'm
[48:34] Speaker 2: glad the way you said that, Yeah, it reiterates that
[48:37] Speaker 2: because that's the whole point we're trying to Even if
[48:39] Speaker 2: you don't care about the people doing it, we want
[48:41] Speaker 2: to say for community everyone.
[48:42] Speaker 1: That's the thing. And one thing I know, if you
[48:46] Speaker 1: escalate it, like as a kid that you're going through
[48:49] Speaker 1: what we're talking about, what could have changed you, steering
[48:53] Speaker 1: you in a better way. But imagine if we came
[48:56] Speaker 1: down on you even harder, how I view reacted.
[49:00] Speaker 2: Absolutely, you know, And I look back and think, Fortunately
[49:04] Speaker 2: for me, I didn't go to adult prison until I
[49:06] Speaker 2: was a lot older, Yeah, you know, and I sort
[49:09] Speaker 2: of evaded police for a long time. And I think
[49:12] Speaker 2: back to the way I was in my younger years
[49:15] Speaker 2: and how how angry I was, and how you know,
[49:19] Speaker 2: willing I was to fight at the top of a hat.
[49:22] Speaker 2: If I'd gone to prison at that age, I can't
[49:25] Speaker 2: of imagine what could have happened. Well I would have.
[49:28] Speaker 2: I would have been a much more dangerous person than
[49:30] Speaker 2: I ended up being, definitely.
[49:32] Speaker 1: Full of anger and rage and violence. Just explained it
[49:37] Speaker 1: absolutely unfortunately that that's an environment, that prison, prison, because.
[49:43] Speaker 2: It's a scary, traumatic, create horrible place to be.
[49:46] Speaker 1: We always, well, we we talk a lot about men
[49:51] Speaker 1: and young young men. What about the women in the situation?
[49:55] Speaker 1: Did you see homeless homeless young girls? Are they going
[49:58] Speaker 1: through the same thing?
[49:59] Speaker 2: And that's like when I was thinking back to the
[50:02] Speaker 2: kids that I was living with at that time, and
[50:05] Speaker 2: some of the ones I do wonder about with the girls,
[50:08] Speaker 2: you know, and yeah, girls in that environment are even
[50:12] Speaker 2: more more, way more vulnerable, you know, like vulnerable to
[50:16] Speaker 2: sex trafficking, vulnerable to yeah, just guys taking advantage of them.
[50:23] Speaker 2: A lot of them en up in prostitution. You know,
[50:25] Speaker 2: even me as a young guy, as a young guy
[50:27] Speaker 2: at that age, you know, it was like there was
[50:29] Speaker 2: a lot of the boys I knew working on the
[50:31] Speaker 2: wall and the cross, and that was an option that
[50:33] Speaker 2: was put to me. It's like, you know, do you
[50:34] Speaker 2: want to come and work? I chose drug dealing instead, right,
[50:39] Speaker 2: And it was kind of the thing because I'd heard
[50:41] Speaker 2: mom make that same choice, you know, so as a
[50:43] Speaker 2: young person, that was did she want to go into
[50:45] Speaker 2: sex work? And she chose drug dealing and I made
[50:48] Speaker 2: the same choice. But it could have just gone the
[50:50] Speaker 2: other way.
[50:52] Speaker 1: What what what hope have you got? Like really where
[50:57] Speaker 1: you're saying that, well, one lesson I learnt from mum
[51:00] Speaker 1: instead of going in the prostitution, drug dealing is the
[51:03] Speaker 1: more vital. And when I want people to check themselves
[51:08] Speaker 1: and think, what did your parents teach? And that's the
[51:12] Speaker 1: environment that you grew up in.
[51:15] Speaker 2: And that was her trying to protect me in the
[51:18] Speaker 2: world that she knew I was going into.
[51:20] Speaker 1: You know, did you think that you had a future
[51:23] Speaker 1: at all? Like you've said, your friends were dying and
[51:27] Speaker 1: killing themselves.
[51:29] Speaker 2: And you know, I was. I was suicidal for a
[51:34] Speaker 2: long long time. You know, the thoughts of suicide were
[51:37] Speaker 2: daily for most of my life, probably unil I was
[51:39] Speaker 2: about thirty. Yeah, so I definitely didn't see the future
[51:42] Speaker 2: and it wasn't until around thirty, where my mental health
[51:45] Speaker 2: got a bit better. Yeah, that I kind of that.
[51:50] Speaker 2: I could probably even say that I that I was
[51:52] Speaker 2: enjoying life on some level, you know, But I did
[51:58] Speaker 2: always have this idea that I was trying to get
[52:01] Speaker 2: better and better myself and whatever way that looked like.
[52:04] Speaker 2: And it was a very very slow, slow, slow journey. Yeah.
[52:09] Speaker 2: And you know, when I say better myself doesn't mean
[52:12] Speaker 2: I was a good person or making good decisions. I
[52:15] Speaker 2: was just trying to be a bit better than I
[52:16] Speaker 2: was the day before. But I definitely made a lot
[52:20] Speaker 2: of bad decisions on the way, and people around me
[52:23] Speaker 2: suffered because of that, and I suffered as well.
[52:27] Speaker 1: Right, Drugs and alcohol were you was that year?
[52:31] Speaker 2: Not alcohol, I don't drink, yeah, but drugs. Yeah, and
[52:36] Speaker 2: that was your escape absolutely, yeah. Yeah. And I spent
[52:40] Speaker 2: some periods without without taking drugs, you know, Like I
[52:43] Speaker 2: think the longest I went was seven years in my twenties.
[52:46] Speaker 2: But yeah, for most of my life, drugs was my
[52:50] Speaker 2: was my the way I escaped those feelings, especially in
[52:53] Speaker 2: my young in my teens and young young twenties. Yeah,
[52:57] Speaker 2: that was the only thing I knew to do to
[53:00] Speaker 2: that deep loneliness away.
[53:05] Speaker 1: Just winding back to the options with kids with you
[53:11] Speaker 1: and I got two hundred and fifty thousand dollars to spend.
[53:13] Speaker 1: There's a kid sitting at the end of the table
[53:15] Speaker 1: that's thirty these life's off track. What do we do
[53:20] Speaker 1: with that money to make a difference to that young
[53:23] Speaker 1: young fella's life.
[53:24] Speaker 2: And I think from me, you know, I'm not an
[53:27] Speaker 2: expert in this, but I know that there are services
[53:31] Speaker 2: that have put a lot of thought into this, and
[53:34] Speaker 2: from what I've read recently, they're talking like one hundred
[53:37] Speaker 2: thousand a year, not even two hundred and fifty thousand
[53:40] Speaker 2: a year that they feel like they can really make
[53:42] Speaker 2: a difference and an impact on that child's life and
[53:46] Speaker 2: prevent them from going back into prison and give them
[53:49] Speaker 2: a real shot. And like I said, a big part
[53:52] Speaker 2: of that is getting them back into school, because every
[53:55] Speaker 2: child should be at school.
[53:56] Speaker 1: Well, yeah, we haven't really delved into that. I think
[54:00] Speaker 1: you went to fifteen different school I did. Yeah, you
[54:03] Speaker 1: haven't got much chance of education there, and I'm sure
[54:06] Speaker 1: it wasn't your priority, but it wasn't How much difference
[54:09] Speaker 1: can their education because it's self esteem and everything that
[54:12] Speaker 1: comes in.
[54:12] Speaker 2: There absolutely, And I think self esteem is a big,
[54:15] Speaker 2: a big part of this the problem I guess, or
[54:18] Speaker 2: what's going on with young people and the adults they become,
[54:22] Speaker 2: because that lack of self esteem is such a hindrance
[54:25] Speaker 2: on being able to make positive moves, you know, and
[54:31] Speaker 2: when you're a person who when you look at yourself
[54:34] Speaker 2: and all you see is failure, you know, and you've
[54:37] Speaker 2: told you a failure, you told you're a bad person,
[54:39] Speaker 2: and you don't have any any experiences of succeeding or
[54:45] Speaker 2: finishing something. You know, I can't remember finishing anything until
[54:48] Speaker 2: I was an adult, like a way into my adulthood.
[54:51] Speaker 1: Yeah, it doesn't give you much self esteem, and you.
[54:53] Speaker 2: Just think you're not capable. And I think for people
[54:57] Speaker 2: who haven't had that kind of experience, they don't under
[55:00] Speaker 2: stand how crippling that is. And you know, when you
[55:03] Speaker 2: see young people and adults coming out of prison and
[55:06] Speaker 2: people say, why don't they just get a job? Why
[55:09] Speaker 2: do they keep going back? Why do they keep making
[55:11] Speaker 2: the same mistakes? So much of that is self esteem
[55:15] Speaker 2: and the fact that they don't have experience of doing
[55:18] Speaker 2: something well and finishing something, and you know, it does
[55:22] Speaker 2: it doesn't take much a few little winds can really
[55:26] Speaker 2: can really turn different. You know, Really little things can
[55:30] Speaker 2: make a difference. It might be completing something that takes
[55:32] Speaker 2: a week to do and you can hold onto that
[55:34] Speaker 2: and it can really make a difference.
[55:36] Speaker 1: Look, I can achieve, I can. Yeah, And because yeah,
[55:40] Speaker 1: life's hard enough even when you've got the stable family
[55:43] Speaker 1: around you and what you've been through. We might take
[55:48] Speaker 1: a break now and let let the listeners and viewers
[55:51] Speaker 1: pond their on the life that you've led up until
[55:55] Speaker 1: this point. When we get back, we'll talk about your adulthood,
[56:00] Speaker 1: the journey into prison, which I don't think that will
[56:02] Speaker 1: come as a surprise and just plucked that out of
[56:04] Speaker 1: the air that you're going to end up in prison.
[56:06] Speaker 1: But then the way that you've turned your life around,
[56:09] Speaker 1: the work that discovering what was on offer with Rainbow Lodge,
[56:13] Speaker 1: and so many other things to talk about.
[56:16] Speaker 2: You take a break,

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