# What it’s like to wait for someone never coming home: Nicole Morris Pt. 1

An episode of [I Catch Killers with Gary Jubelin](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1506667049), 1 Aug 2026, 1 h 03 min.

Audio: https://p.podderapp.com/2544644999/traffic.omny.fm/d/clips/2fb3740d-3436-44af-8cc0-a91900716aa5/5bc8c2ed-b718-4f44-beb3-ac2a005246cc/01fc6acc-7bac-4965-865b-b497005206c8/audio.mp3?utm_source=Podcast&in_playlist=786928c3-10c1-4cef-a7bf-ac2a005246d0

Every single day, around 130 Australians on average are reported missing. For the families left behind, there are no funerals, no closure, and no answers, just an unbearable silence where a person used to be. Nicole Morris has spent over two decades refusing to let that silence win. As the founder and director of the Australian Missing Persons Register, Nicole has supported countless families through the devastating trauma of unexplained disappearance. For more than two decades, she has earned the trust of law enforcement agencies and government bodies across Australia and internationally through her relentless commitment to ensuring the missing are never forgotten. In this episode of I Catch Killers, Gary and Nicole break down the human cost of disappearance, what it truly means to live with an "ambiguous loss", and share the stories of families whose lives have been irrevocably changed by unanswered questions. Gary and Nicole also take a hard look at the system. Why does the first response to a missing persons report matter so much? What goes wrong when cases aren't treated with urgency? And why does the dangerous myth that you must wait 24 hours before reporting someone missing continue to cost precious time? Nicole is the author of Lost: More True Stories from Families of Australian Missing Persons. Subscribe to our new Youtube channel. Follow I Catch Killers: Instagram: @icatchkillers Tiktok: @icatchkillerspodcast Facebook: @icatchkillers See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

## Transcript

[0:01] Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.
[0:05] Speaker 1: Detective see a side of life. The average person is
[0:07] Speaker 1: never exposed her I spent thirty four years as a cop.
[0:11] Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.
[0:14] Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a
[0:16] Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,
[0:20] Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.
[0:23] Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories
[0:26] Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw
[0:28] Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some
[0:31] Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because
[0:34] Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.
[0:38] Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.
[0:46] Speaker 1: One hundred and fifty people go missing every single day
[0:49] Speaker 1: in Australia. For the families left behind, there are no funerals,
[0:54] Speaker 1: no closure, no answers, just an unbearable silence where a
[0:58] Speaker 1: person used to be. It's a grief that has no
[1:02] Speaker 1: name because it never truly ends. I've seen the pain
[1:05] Speaker 1: up close and so as today's guest Nicole Morris. She
[1:09] Speaker 1: is a founder of Australian Missing Persons Register. And the
[1:13] Speaker 1: author of three books on the subject. For years, she's
[1:17] Speaker 1: been a fierce advocate, fighting to ensure that missing person
[1:20] Speaker 1: cases are treated with the urgency and seriousness they deserve. Today,
[1:26] Speaker 1: Nicole pulls back the curtain on what's really happening inside
[1:29] Speaker 1: the investigations, inside the institutions, and inside the lives of
[1:33] Speaker 1: people waiting for answers that may never come. Let's get
[1:37] Speaker 1: into it, Nicole Morris, Welcome to I Catch Killers.
[1:42] Speaker 2: Thank you so much, Gary, good to be here.
[1:45] Speaker 1: Well, we're going to have an interesting chat. You've certainly
[1:48] Speaker 1: covered a lot of stuff in your time and being
[1:51] Speaker 1: involved in missing persons, and I know from my time
[1:55] Speaker 1: in homicide, and I also from reading your books and
[1:59] Speaker 1: getting this sense of it, how many people are impacted
[2:03] Speaker 1: in this country by missing loved ones.
[2:05] Speaker 2: Oh, it's just an incredible number. And it's really not
[2:09] Speaker 2: a situation that's improving a lot. You know, there's almost
[2:13] Speaker 2: fifty thousand people a year go missing. It's about one
[2:16] Speaker 2: hundred and thirty a day. And concerningly, we've got two
[2:20] Speaker 2: eight hundred long term missing persons, and a long term
[2:23] Speaker 2: missing person is anyone who has been missing longer than
[2:26] Speaker 2: three months, So that's a huge number. So I feel like,
[2:31] Speaker 2: even though I've written three books about it, it's a
[2:33] Speaker 2: drop in the ocean as to how many people are
[2:36] Speaker 2: out there who need their voices heard.
[2:38] Speaker 1: Well, I think a lot of people. When you see
[2:40] Speaker 1: reports in the media of someone that's disappeared, unless it
[2:44] Speaker 1: impacts on you directly or there's something significant about the
[2:47] Speaker 1: case that there's captured people's attention, we don't give it
[2:50] Speaker 1: a lot of thought until it strikes close to home
[2:53] Speaker 1: and it's someone that you know or associated with that
[2:58] Speaker 1: just disappears.
[2:59] Speaker 3: Absolutely.
[3:00] Speaker 2: I was sending out some early copies of the books
[3:03] Speaker 2: to people on Instagram, and typically those books to grammers
[3:08] Speaker 2: don't read a lot of true crime, so I always
[3:10] Speaker 2: sort of say, is this do you think that you
[3:12] Speaker 2: would be able to get through this sort of genre?
[3:15] Speaker 2: And one of them was so enthusiastic, Oh, yes, I'd
[3:18] Speaker 2: love to read this book. And then she sent me
[3:20] Speaker 2: her address to send the book to, and I said,
[3:22] Speaker 2: do you know what, there's a person in the book
[3:24] Speaker 2: who went missing about three streets from you. And she
[3:27] Speaker 2: was blown away because that had never occurred to her before,
[3:31] Speaker 2: that missing people are all around us, that it can
[3:35] Speaker 2: affect absolutely anyone at any time, because there's no there's
[3:38] Speaker 2: so many reasons for people to go missing. So yeah,
[3:43] Speaker 2: I think it's a surprise to people.
[3:44] Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, it's interesting that you say that because reading
[3:48] Speaker 1: your last book, Lost, there was a couple of a
[3:51] Speaker 1: couple of cases that you talked about disappearances, and it
[3:55] Speaker 1: sort of got my interest in it because I knew
[3:57] Speaker 1: the area, I knew the time, I knew the environment,
[4:00] Speaker 1: and I think when you look at the closeness of
[4:04] Speaker 1: the locations where people disappear, and you think that could
[4:06] Speaker 1: have been anyone, that could have been one of our
[4:09] Speaker 1: loved ones. Before we start. In your book Lost, you
[4:13] Speaker 1: dedicate it to Peter Rolf. Yes, I think it's appropriate.
[4:18] Speaker 1: I think we both agree on that. Talk about Peter
[4:21] Speaker 1: because Peter became a friend of mine. I knew him
[4:23] Speaker 1: when I was in homicide. He was a great advocate
[4:27] Speaker 1: for victims of crime, in particular homicide and missing persons
[4:33] Speaker 1: made life hell for police, politicians and everyone else. I
[4:37] Speaker 1: think would be fair the same.
[4:39] Speaker 3: Because he made he'd be proud of that.
[4:41] Speaker 1: They made everyone accountable. Where did you first meet Peter.
[4:47] Speaker 2: It was such a long time ago. I went to
[4:50] Speaker 2: Sydney for I think it was an anniversary birthday for
[4:55] Speaker 2: families and friends of missing persons by the new south
[4:57] Speaker 2: West government and we met at Parliament House, Old Parliament House,
[5:01] Speaker 2: I think in Sydney, and he came up to me
[5:04] Speaker 2: and I had known about his work because he was
[5:07] Speaker 2: such an advocate, and he just came up and introduced
[5:10] Speaker 2: himself and we were firm friends ever since, and he
[5:12] Speaker 2: was such a supporter of what I do. I think
[5:15] Speaker 2: also because he had had that personal connection with his
[5:21] Speaker 2: with his very close friend, former partner, who had been murdered.
[5:25] Speaker 2: But Pete also knew Stephen Jelfs who has been missing
[5:29] Speaker 2: since the seventies in King's Cross, So he had that
[5:33] Speaker 2: personal connection with a missing person and really went to
[5:36] Speaker 2: bat for them. And he was, as you say, one
[5:40] Speaker 2: of those people who just kept constantly emailing you, going,
[5:43] Speaker 2: this is what we need to do, this, this is
[5:44] Speaker 2: what I'm doing now, this is what we need to do.
[5:47] Speaker 2: We need to keep on at them, and he just
[5:49] Speaker 2: never gave up. And for his whole life he would
[5:54] Speaker 2: sit beside victims in court and just provide that comfort
[5:58] Speaker 2: and he helped so many people.
[6:01] Speaker 1: Yeah, he was tireless in his work, and you mentioned
[6:04] Speaker 1: he was touched by crime. I remember the case. It
[6:08] Speaker 1: was his partner, Stephen Dempsey, and it was a horrendous crime.
[6:13] Speaker 1: He was shot by a crossbow at Narrabeen Lakes and
[6:18] Speaker 1: talk about it now with respect to what happened to
[6:22] Speaker 1: Stephen and also the impact it had on Peter. But
[6:24] Speaker 1: when you understand the nature of the crime, you might
[6:27] Speaker 1: understand why Peter was so driven. After Stephen was murdered,
[6:32] Speaker 1: his body was dismembered and placed in a fridge. Police
[6:37] Speaker 1: discovered that in a fridge after the person who killed
[6:41] Speaker 1: Stephen killed another person, and the investigation led to that
[6:45] Speaker 1: it was horrific crime. I remember it well in the
[6:49] Speaker 1: time that I was working in major crime, and you
[6:53] Speaker 1: can understand someone like Peter Bean driven for a lifetime
[6:57] Speaker 1: because it was a long time ago that Stephen was
[7:00] Speaker 1: heard that you can understand someone like Peter Bean driven
[7:03] Speaker 1: to make sure that these crimes are prevented as much
[7:06] Speaker 1: as possible, or if they do happen, to ensure that
[7:09] Speaker 1: they're properly investigated. Then my sense of Peter what he
[7:14] Speaker 1: would make he didn't hate police. It wasn't against police
[7:19] Speaker 1: or courts or whatever. He just wanted to make sure
[7:22] Speaker 1: that things were done properly and certainly jumping out in
[7:26] Speaker 1: your book, they see some failings in systems and not
[7:30] Speaker 1: necessarily blaming individuals where things have slipped through the cracks,
[7:34] Speaker 1: and that was something that Peter really worked hard on
[7:37] Speaker 1: to make sure that didn't occur very much.
[7:40] Speaker 2: So, yeah, he was particularly an advocate for rewards, which
[7:46] Speaker 2: is a controversial issue in the missing person system, but
[7:50] Speaker 2: he really pushed for that. I could not count how
[7:53] Speaker 2: many emails and letters he would have written over the years.
[7:56] Speaker 2: Can you to say please do this, you need to
[8:00] Speaker 2: do this. I'm requesting that you do this. They would
[8:03] Speaker 2: have known his name very very well.
[8:06] Speaker 1: I can assure you they knew his name very well.
[8:09] Speaker 1: I always liked his name. There was other other people
[8:11] Speaker 1: that didn't like his name. I liked his name because
[8:14] Speaker 1: I knew if Peter was on the something, there was
[8:16] Speaker 1: going to be change a coming and coming soon so exactly.
[8:20] Speaker 2: And look what he achieved with the commission, the the
[8:23] Speaker 2: you know, the inquest and the investigation into the New
[8:26] Speaker 2: South Wales historic gay hate crimes. He was instrumental in
[8:31] Speaker 2: getting that happening and achieved you know, wonderful things here.
[8:35] Speaker 1: Well, look, it's good to talk about Peter because I
[8:37] Speaker 1: think the work that he does or did before he
[8:41] Speaker 1: sadly passed away, shouldn't be forgotten and we need people
[8:45] Speaker 1: want that to keep everyone on track. Absolutely Now talk
[8:50] Speaker 1: about missing missing persons. I don't think people fully appreciate
[8:55] Speaker 1: the impact that has. And the only way you can
[8:59] Speaker 1: discribe it, I think try to put yourself in that position.
[9:02] Speaker 1: Think of a loved one and then that loved one
[9:05] Speaker 1: just disappears and there is absolutely no answers. You don't
[9:09] Speaker 1: know what's happened to the person. You don't know if
[9:11] Speaker 1: the person's still alive. It's like carrying it. It's like
[9:15] Speaker 1: an ongoing nightmare. I think for people that have had
[9:18] Speaker 1: loved ones disappeared, you've been witnessed to that more than
[9:23] Speaker 1: most people in the work that you've done and the
[9:25] Speaker 1: advocacy that you've done for missing persons. Can you describe
[9:30] Speaker 1: the type of impact that you see from families that
[9:33] Speaker 1: have lost their loved ones.
[9:36] Speaker 2: In the missing person's world, we call it an ambiguous loss.
[9:39] Speaker 2: That's the term that they have coined for what it
[9:42] Speaker 2: feels like to have someone go missing, because you've got
[9:45] Speaker 2: that loss, but you don't know why you have that loss.
[9:48] Speaker 2: You can't sort of rationalize it in your mind because
[9:51] Speaker 2: you know that you've lost that person, but you don't
[9:53] Speaker 2: know why or where or how. So your brain probably
[9:57] Speaker 2: goes into more of a trauma because you're imagining what
[10:03] Speaker 2: has happened to that person and so many different scenarios
[10:07] Speaker 2: and you don't have any answers. So unlike someone who
[10:10] Speaker 2: dies in a car crash or a heart attack, you
[10:12] Speaker 2: know you've lost that person, but you know what's happened,
[10:15] Speaker 2: and so your brain can go, Okay, this is what happened.
[10:18] Speaker 2: I can accept this. This is the reality of the situation.
[10:21] Speaker 2: Whereas with a missing person, are they still alive, have
[10:25] Speaker 2: they been murdered, did they take their own life. There's
[10:28] Speaker 2: all of these scenarios that go around in your head
[10:31] Speaker 2: for decades, and it absolutely destroys people. You know, marriages
[10:37] Speaker 2: can fall apart, if a couple stops communicating with each other,
[10:43] Speaker 2: if they've lost a child, if they've lost a brother.
[10:46] Speaker 2: Sometimes it can bring people closer together, but everyone copes
[10:50] Speaker 2: differently because we've all got different personalities, and some people
[10:54] Speaker 2: cope better than others. I was talking to Marcia Ryan's
[10:58] Speaker 2: brother Tony the other week and it struck me how
[11:02] Speaker 2: he copes with his sister's disappearance. He also lost a
[11:05] Speaker 2: sister in a car accident, so he's had a lot
[11:07] Speaker 2: of trauma in his life that he's very He's almost
[11:12] Speaker 2: casual about the way that he approaches the loss. He
[11:18] Speaker 2: just sort of says, well, whatever's.
[11:20] Speaker 3: Happened, I can't change it.
[11:22] Speaker 2: I can just deal with it, So what's the point
[11:24] Speaker 2: in torturing myself in thinking what's happened? But not everyone
[11:28] Speaker 2: can get their mind there. Some people hyper focus on
[11:33] Speaker 2: the what if, what if?
[11:34] Speaker 3: What if?
[11:35] Speaker 2: And that's absolute torture to your brain and your soul.
[11:40] Speaker 2: And these families just have to live with that, often
[11:45] Speaker 2: for decades, and it never goes away. You'd think, perhaps
[11:50] Speaker 2: the public might think that it changes and it eases
[11:54] Speaker 2: and people move on and they forget about it.
[11:57] Speaker 3: But when I.
[11:59] Speaker 2: Interviewed Tony Farrington, whose sister went missing in nineteen seventy nine,
[12:03] Speaker 2: he sobbed during the interview. So did I. And it's
[12:07] Speaker 2: just as raw now as it was when he was
[12:10] Speaker 2: a very young man and his sister didn't come home.
[12:13] Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's interesting how people deal with it in
[12:16] Speaker 1: different ways, and those that can accept that it's something
[12:20] Speaker 1: out of their control. That's very enlightened view on it,
[12:24] Speaker 1: but it's not what most people can can get to.
[12:28] Speaker 1: I saw the damageing homicide where the bodies haven't been
[12:32] Speaker 1: recovered victims of crime, and it adds another layer. And
[12:38] Speaker 1: it's hard to say what could be worse than having
[12:40] Speaker 1: a loved one murdered, having a loved one disappeared and
[12:44] Speaker 1: not knowing what's happened to that loved one. Can actually,
[12:47] Speaker 1: it can actually be worse. I say that with not
[12:50] Speaker 1: having personal experience, but just watching how the families react
[12:54] Speaker 1: when they just haven't got answers and it's a torture
[12:57] Speaker 1: for them and ongoing torture for them.
[13:00] Speaker 2: Yeah, there was a mother of a missing woman and
[13:03] Speaker 2: we know that she was murdered murdered by a husband
[13:06] Speaker 2: in Victoria decades ago, and a quote that she said
[13:09] Speaker 2: always stays with me. She said, I'd settle for bones.
[13:12] Speaker 2: I'd settle for bones. You know, I know I'm not
[13:14] Speaker 2: going to get it back. I'd just give me a bone.
[13:17] Speaker 2: And that's what the Markham's got. They knew immediately Daniel
[13:23] Speaker 2: wasn't coming home, but they said, we just need a
[13:26] Speaker 2: little bit of him home.
[13:28] Speaker 1: Well, I saw it in a variety of cases, and
[13:31] Speaker 1: Matthew Levison one comes to mind with Mark and Faye Matthew,
[13:36] Speaker 1: and people that listen to the podcast would have heard
[13:38] Speaker 1: me talk about that particular case. But Matt disappeared and
[13:43] Speaker 1: for ten years Mark and Fay didn't know what had
[13:46] Speaker 1: happened to him. And when his body was eventually recovered
[13:51] Speaker 1: at the National National Park south of Sydney, I was
[13:57] Speaker 1: there when Matt's remains found. Mark and Fay had been
[14:01] Speaker 1: there and watching us dig in a national park looking
[14:03] Speaker 1: for their son's remains for I think it was four
[14:06] Speaker 1: weeks all up, it might have been even even more.
[14:09] Speaker 1: And the pain and the emotion I saw on their
[14:13] Speaker 1: face when I had to walk from the location where
[14:16] Speaker 1: we found Matt, which was only about fifteen meters away
[14:19] Speaker 1: from where Mark and Fay were standing, and then tell
[14:22] Speaker 1: them that, look, I think we've found Matt. And they
[14:27] Speaker 1: both broke down and cried obviously, and we've talked about this,
[14:31] Speaker 1: I'm not talking about stuff that they don't want revealed, obviously,
[14:35] Speaker 1: very emotional for them. Watching that, it was almost like,
[14:39] Speaker 1: thank God, we've found him, but now it means he's
[14:42] Speaker 1: never coming home because when someone disappears. My assessment of it,
[14:47] Speaker 1: speaking to the families over the years, there's always that
[14:51] Speaker 1: smidgeon of hope, smidgeon of hope that the person's like
[14:54] Speaker 1: Matt was in his twenties, smidgeon of hope that he'd
[14:58] Speaker 1: turn up at the front door of the house ten
[15:00] Speaker 1: years later. Mark and Fay would have yelled at him,
[15:03] Speaker 1: what have you done to us? And then given him
[15:05] Speaker 1: a big cuddle. But you know, when the remains are found,
[15:09] Speaker 1: that's not going to happen. But yeah, I want people
[15:13] Speaker 1: and I talk about this because we're going to talk
[15:16] Speaker 1: about in the podcast today is what can be done
[15:19] Speaker 1: when people disappear. And a lot of the things that
[15:21] Speaker 1: can be done is what you've been championing for two decades.
[15:25] Speaker 1: There's an impact and we need to understand the impact
[15:28] Speaker 1: of when someone just disappears. Mark and Fay would go
[15:32] Speaker 1: down to the National Park on weekends with a shovel
[15:35] Speaker 1: and a madic looking for Matt's remains randomly and working
[15:40] Speaker 1: out theories, working on theories looking for Matt's remains, And
[15:44] Speaker 1: that's how they were spending the ten years since the
[15:47] Speaker 1: time Matt disappeared. So that's the type of type of impact.
[15:52] Speaker 2: Absolutely. Yeah, Mark and Favor are good friends of mine
[15:55] Speaker 2: and they are some of my favorite people in the world.
[15:58] Speaker 2: And on a personal note, I want to thank you
[16:01] Speaker 2: for what you did for them because I know how
[16:04] Speaker 2: much they hold you in the highest esteem because they
[16:08] Speaker 2: couldn't have got through this without you.
[16:09] Speaker 1: That's nice of you to say, And they look they're
[16:12] Speaker 1: close friends. They're like family to me now. But again,
[16:16] Speaker 1: inspirational people because it's not just what they did to
[16:20] Speaker 1: the resolve Matt's situation, it's the amount of people that
[16:24] Speaker 1: have helped. Quite often, when someone's in a bind and
[16:28] Speaker 1: they need some advice, so I phine Mark and Fay
[16:30] Speaker 1: and say, hey, could you speak to this person, because
[16:33] Speaker 1: I think they're a wealth of knowledge how to take
[16:36] Speaker 1: on the system pushing pushing.
[16:39] Speaker 2: And what we were talking about before about how different
[16:41] Speaker 2: people cope with different things. Mark and say could have
[16:45] Speaker 2: broken apart. Instead they became glued together. And Mark didn't
[16:51] Speaker 2: break down. He broke down obviously when they found Mattie,
[16:53] Speaker 2: but he became angry and he's still angry, and that
[16:57] Speaker 2: anger fuels his campaign and has ultimately been so helpful
[17:02] Speaker 2: to him.
[17:03] Speaker 1: Well, I haven't been the end of Mark's anger. But
[17:06] Speaker 1: I've been on the anger and of anger sometimes and
[17:09] Speaker 1: that was quite scary. And she'll she'll laugh laugh at that,
[17:12] Speaker 1: but understandable. It's the emotions. And I keep talking about
[17:17] Speaker 1: the emotions because I want people involved in anything that
[17:21] Speaker 1: leads to the resolution of someone having disappeared to understand
[17:26] Speaker 1: the impact. And I think we lose sight of the impact.
[17:29] Speaker 1: I'll tell you another story, and I think I've spoken
[17:33] Speaker 1: about it publicly, and I'm sure that they wouldn't mind.
[17:36] Speaker 1: With William Tyrell, when William Tyrell disappeared his foster parents,
[17:40] Speaker 1: and there's been a lot said about that. I'm not
[17:42] Speaker 1: going to buy into the whole story there. I'm talking
[17:45] Speaker 1: about an aspect of that investigation. When I took over
[17:49] Speaker 1: the investigation, I was speaking to his foster parents and
[17:53] Speaker 1: obviously they had William's room set up at home and
[17:58] Speaker 1: they said to me, and I can't even remember at
[18:00] Speaker 1: what stage of the investigation this was. I was on
[18:03] Speaker 1: it for four years, so it was during the period
[18:05] Speaker 1: i'd say in the first year or two. They've asked me,
[18:08] Speaker 1: as the officer in charge, Yeah, in an emotional conversation,
[18:14] Speaker 1: when do you think we should pack William's room up,
[18:17] Speaker 1: and that, to me, it just sort of typified what
[18:21] Speaker 1: we're dealing with here, is Yeah, at what point, at
[18:25] Speaker 1: what point do you say we're never going to see
[18:28] Speaker 1: this young young boy again? Do we pack his room
[18:30] Speaker 1: up like that? It just broke my heart when they
[18:35] Speaker 1: asked that question. I thought, geez, that really brings it
[18:38] Speaker 1: home what the emotion is when someone disappears.
[18:41] Speaker 2: No answers, absolutely, yeah, William's case. I'm asked about it
[18:45] Speaker 2: all the time. I assume you are, and I never
[18:50] Speaker 2: talk about it. I talk about it in their general terms.
[18:53] Speaker 2: The loss of a child is obviously the worst thing
[18:56] Speaker 2: that can happen to anyone. And I think even even
[19:01] Speaker 2: when I was on Sunrise a couple of years ago
[19:03] Speaker 2: and they asked me out of the blue about to William,
[19:06] Speaker 2: who has never been in any of my books. I've
[19:08] Speaker 2: never written about Willim, but I always think back to
[19:12] Speaker 2: the very first day that I knew that he had
[19:16] Speaker 2: gone missing, and I actually got a phone call from
[19:18] Speaker 2: someone who was on the scene, so I got his
[19:21] Speaker 2: information out there really quickly, and like everyone else, we
[19:25] Speaker 2: just thought, okay, little boys wandered off wearing a bright
[19:28] Speaker 2: red suit. We'll find him really quickly, and if we
[19:32] Speaker 2: stripped back everything that's happened since then, and if I
[19:35] Speaker 2: go back to that very first day, it was the
[19:40] Speaker 2: very first information I got. So the first words that
[19:42] Speaker 2: were out of the mouth of the person that was
[19:45] Speaker 2: on scene who called me said, it's a really nice
[19:48] Speaker 2: family and they are absolutely frantic. And that is the
[19:53] Speaker 2: one thing that has kept in my brain since twenty fourteen,
[19:56] Speaker 2: that they were absolutely frantic, and that feeling never goes away.
[20:01] Speaker 2: It never goes away. And as you said, when do
[20:04] Speaker 2: you stop feeling frantic? When do you stop that feeling
[20:07] Speaker 2: of We've all as parents, we've all turned around at
[20:11] Speaker 2: a theme park and you thought that you're seven year
[20:14] Speaker 2: old was right behind you, and suddenly they've.
[20:16] Speaker 3: Been distracted and wounded off, and.
[20:18] Speaker 2: That panic and that panic feeling can last for years.
[20:22] Speaker 2: With the family of a missing person, you can be
[20:24] Speaker 2: missing child.
[20:25] Speaker 1: It's frightening. And I think any adult that has control
[20:29] Speaker 1: of young children have experienced that moment of panic when
[20:32] Speaker 1: you turn around and the child's not where you thought
[20:35] Speaker 1: they would be, and the urgency of what needs to
[20:39] Speaker 1: be done right from the start. So when we talk
[20:45] Speaker 1: missing people now, a lot of missing people are found
[20:49] Speaker 1: and I wanted to bunk and we'll debunk this one
[20:52] Speaker 1: straight up and we might touch on it again. That
[20:55] Speaker 1: the amount of people that say to me, you can't
[20:57] Speaker 1: report someone missing in the first twenty four hours, and
[21:01] Speaker 1: just can we hit people out of the head with
[21:04] Speaker 1: the fact that yes you can. And if anyone walks
[21:08] Speaker 1: into a police station and the police officer tells you
[21:11] Speaker 1: we can't take a report until the person's been missing
[21:14] Speaker 1: for twenty four hours, just say bullshit, Yeah, yep, it's circumstances. Manager, Yeah, yeah,
[21:22] Speaker 1: take their name and say thank you very much. Who's
[21:25] Speaker 1: your supervisor. I'd like to speak to the supervisor, because
[21:28] Speaker 1: it's circumstances that dictate whether how something should be be
[21:33] Speaker 1: followed up. Have you with all the hundreds of people
[21:37] Speaker 1: that you've spoken to that have been involved in reporting
[21:41] Speaker 1: matters to the police, is that something that often comes
[21:43] Speaker 1: up that people aren't taking the report or not just
[21:48] Speaker 1: police not taking the report, people thinking they can't report
[21:52] Speaker 1: the disappearance all the.
[21:53] Speaker 2: Time, and people still say, oh, you know, this is
[21:56] Speaker 2: what's happened. My roommate didn't come home, I can't get
[21:59] Speaker 2: hold of brother. What should I do? Go to the
[22:01] Speaker 2: police now? Oh, isn't it a bit early? Should we
[22:03] Speaker 2: wait a bit longer. I don't want to a lot
[22:06] Speaker 2: of people say I don't want to get them into trouble,
[22:09] Speaker 2: like there's no trouble. You know, Oh, he'll be angry
[22:13] Speaker 2: with me if I go to the police. So you
[22:15] Speaker 2: know what if something's happened. And I remember with the
[22:18] Speaker 2: Carla McBride case, they were trying to report her as
[22:22] Speaker 2: a missing person.
[22:23] Speaker 1: Tell us a little bit about that if you could.
[22:25] Speaker 2: It was New South Wales round Newcastle. Carla McBride was
[22:29] Speaker 2: a young woman who disappeared, just didn't come home. Was
[22:34] Speaker 2: supposed to meet someone, a young Indigenous woman, and they
[22:38] Speaker 2: tried to report her as missing. And the police said, oh,
[22:41] Speaker 2: you know, she's well known to us, so the sort
[22:45] Speaker 2: of person she is, she'll turn up. It'll be fine.
[22:49] Speaker 2: And they came to me and said what do I do?
[22:51] Speaker 2: And I said, well, I'm putting and sometimes I will
[22:54] Speaker 2: very cheekily put the information out there in as a
[22:58] Speaker 2: means of putting the pressure on the least to take
[23:00] Speaker 2: the report. So I'm like, okay, if you've seen this person,
[23:04] Speaker 2: I want you to call this particular police station because
[23:08] Speaker 2: then they'll be forced to take the report if they
[23:10] Speaker 2: start getting phone calls about it. So they came to
[23:13] Speaker 2: me and said, you know what do we do. I
[23:16] Speaker 2: really think something's happened to her. And so I called
[23:19] Speaker 2: the police and I said you need to take this report.
[23:22] Speaker 2: And they went, oh, you know this, you as you'll
[23:24] Speaker 2: turn up And I said, you need to take this report.
[23:26] Speaker 2: And it ended up being one of the biggest tumicide
[23:29] Speaker 2: cases that they had had she had been murdered. They
[23:32] Speaker 2: should have acted sooner on that particular case. And I
[23:35] Speaker 2: still have all of that information and it still upsets
[23:38] Speaker 2: me that you have to insist and put aside prejudices
[23:43] Speaker 2: as well. Just because someone has a criminal history, sometimes
[23:47] Speaker 2: because they have a history of disappearing, that doesn't mean
[23:51] Speaker 2: you can't take every single report seriously and treat it
[23:55] Speaker 2: on its own merits.
[23:57] Speaker 1: That's right, you need to look at each case in
[23:59] Speaker 1: the usually. But you talk about taking the reports. One
[24:03] Speaker 1: thing in homicide that the advantage we had if there
[24:07] Speaker 1: was a homicide and the body was found straight away,
[24:11] Speaker 1: that's a huge advantage because we're straight onto it. We're
[24:14] Speaker 1: onto all the inquiries that need to be done. Where
[24:17] Speaker 1: information can be lost when someone disappears and it's reported
[24:22] Speaker 1: to the police, and then we find no inquiries have
[24:25] Speaker 1: been done about the disappearance, and then you know, it
[24:27] Speaker 1: might be a month or so later that the body
[24:29] Speaker 1: turns up. We're playing catch up, catch up. That could
[24:32] Speaker 1: have been We could have been on top of it
[24:34] Speaker 1: right from the start, and that's where mistakes are made.
[24:39] Speaker 1: Give we talk missing persons, Give us a sense of
[24:43] Speaker 1: what constitutes a missing person in your mind. Give some
[24:47] Speaker 1: examples of different types of situations where it's quite appropriate
[24:52] Speaker 1: for someone to be reported as a missing missing person.
[24:56] Speaker 2: I have quite a broad speed victrum of what a
[25:00] Speaker 2: missing person is, and often feel that I need to
[25:05] Speaker 2: correct others about it. Who comes to me and say, well,
[25:08] Speaker 2: you know, that's not really a missing person. I think
[25:11] Speaker 2: it applies to anyone, even people who are lost at
[25:14] Speaker 2: sea whose body is almost certainly never going to be recovered,
[25:18] Speaker 2: and that as an aside, sometimes happens. Sometimes you'll get
[25:22] Speaker 2: a bone washed up. I was reading the story about
[25:25] Speaker 2: Martin Tan this week, who the coroner has just declared
[25:30] Speaker 2: that he went missing in the ocean in Perth. One
[25:33] Speaker 2: of his dreadlocks washed up later on a beach. But
[25:38] Speaker 2: he's still a missing person, even though we're probably never
[25:41] Speaker 2: going to find him. He will remain missing until we
[25:44] Speaker 2: find some of his body. And that applies to all
[25:49] Speaker 2: missing persons. So someone who to me a missing person
[25:53] Speaker 2: is someone who disappears unexpectedly, who is not where they
[25:58] Speaker 2: are meant to be, who does come home from work,
[26:01] Speaker 2: who was last seen in this particular location, and then
[26:05] Speaker 2: suddenly it's not there anymore. You can't contact them, No
[26:08] Speaker 2: one in the entire family can contact them. It differs
[26:12] Speaker 2: from someone that you've just lost contact with, who might
[26:15] Speaker 2: sort of have moved on and done something different with
[26:18] Speaker 2: their life. A missing person disappears unexpectedly, and if you
[26:23] Speaker 2: have concerns about their welfare, that's a missing person.
[26:27] Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, because I think that's another thing to consider.
[26:31] Speaker 1: But it's a circumstances. And if someone we have people
[26:35] Speaker 1: reporting a missing person when they haven't turned up for work. Now,
[26:39] Speaker 1: people might say, well, you just see a work colleague,
[26:42] Speaker 1: how can you report? But if that person diligently turns
[26:45] Speaker 1: up to work every day and then stops turning up
[26:48] Speaker 1: to work, well yeah, there can be concerns.
[26:52] Speaker 2: So yeah, absolutely, and it should be enough for a
[26:54] Speaker 2: welfare check. It should be enough for police to just
[26:56] Speaker 2: go and knock on the door and go, OK, we've
[26:58] Speaker 2: had concerns.
[27:00] Speaker 1: You go the welfare check. I honestly think sometimes you
[27:03] Speaker 1: can create more work for yourself not doing the most
[27:06] Speaker 1: obvious thing, you know, if someone's disappeared, like, don't fob
[27:10] Speaker 1: the person off coming into the police station. Just take
[27:13] Speaker 1: the report and make some initial inquiries, and I think
[27:17] Speaker 1: in the long run that's going to serve better statistic statistically. Okay,
[27:24] Speaker 1: this is I got it. We're talking the other day,
[27:27] Speaker 1: but I think this was from the AFP website. About
[27:29] Speaker 1: fifty thousand missing persons reports are received by police in
[27:33] Speaker 1: Australia every year, with half of those reports relating to
[27:36] Speaker 1: people age between thirteen and seventeen. So is that you've
[27:42] Speaker 1: been in this field for twenty years or two decades?
[27:45] Speaker 1: Fifty thousand that seems to be fairly fairly consistent.
[27:50] Speaker 2: Absolutely, yeah, yep, for sure. I'm actually surprised that the
[27:54] Speaker 2: number isn't higher. I thought it was around fifty six thousand,
[27:57] Speaker 2: so two thousand makes me feel a little bit better.
[28:00] Speaker 2: But as I said, the long term missing numbers are
[28:04] Speaker 2: very high, and I think I'm seeing a trend. As
[28:09] Speaker 2: you said that half of those are young people, and
[28:12] Speaker 2: I'm seeing a trend of those average ages of the
[28:16] Speaker 2: teenage runaways dropping dramatically, So I've regularly got eleven year
[28:21] Speaker 2: olds going missing, which is horrifying to me, absolutely horrifying.
[28:26] Speaker 1: That's concerning now. Statistically, most people reported missing are located
[28:31] Speaker 1: within a short period of time, So would that would
[28:35] Speaker 1: be fair? I'm looking at some of the other things here.
[28:38] Speaker 1: You mentioned that before that a long term missing person
[28:41] Speaker 1: is considered missing for more than three months. How do
[28:45] Speaker 1: you think they've come to that sort of timeframe. What's
[28:48] Speaker 1: your take on that?
[28:50] Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know. That kind of used to be
[28:53] Speaker 2: the criteria in my head because I've got the website
[28:57] Speaker 2: and I've got the Facebook page, So people who are
[28:59] Speaker 2: missing immediately go on to the Facebook page. Once they've
[29:02] Speaker 2: been missing a long time, I'll move them to the website,
[29:05] Speaker 2: which is a more permanent spot for them so that
[29:08] Speaker 2: we can continue to make appeals for them, but perhaps
[29:11] Speaker 2: not on a daily basis, but sometimes I will move
[29:14] Speaker 2: them over sooner than that if I think the circumstances
[29:18] Speaker 2: are that, I don't think this person is going to
[29:21] Speaker 2: be found, So yeah, three months I think is just
[29:25] Speaker 2: a number that they've picked, as in, okay, it's probably
[29:30] Speaker 2: definitely going to be a long term missing person.
[29:32] Speaker 1: If it's three, well it's not someone that's gone for
[29:35] Speaker 1: the two week holiday or someone that's yeah yeah.
[29:38] Speaker 2: And if there's a physical search for a missing person,
[29:41] Speaker 2: generally they're going to find that person within a couple
[29:44] Speaker 2: of weeks.
[29:45] Speaker 1: They talk on the website here about the many reasons
[29:49] Speaker 1: people go missing, including mental illness, miscommunication, misadventure, domestic violence,
[29:55] Speaker 1: been the victim of crime. So that's abroad. But that's
[30:00] Speaker 1: pretty well sort of covers it. That covers the type
[30:03] Speaker 1: of things.
[30:04] Speaker 2: I think so most I think the general public thinks
[30:06] Speaker 2: that victims of crime is the number one reason, and
[30:09] Speaker 2: it's not.
[30:10] Speaker 1: Well, that's the thing that you look at. Initially, if
[30:14] Speaker 1: someone disappears, you think the worst, but often it doesn't
[30:19] Speaker 1: turn out. I'm hardened here by the fact that they
[30:22] Speaker 1: point out you do not have to wait twenty four
[30:25] Speaker 1: hours to report someone missing. We'll say that one more time.
[30:27] Speaker 1: You do not have to wait twenty four hours to
[30:30] Speaker 1: report someone missing.
[30:31] Speaker 3: Minutes.
[30:32] Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a lot, isn't it When you break it
[30:37] Speaker 1: down that many people and tell me, and we touched
[30:41] Speaker 1: on it earlier, But just tell me about the type
[30:44] Speaker 1: of impact on families. Pick some cases you've talked about
[30:47] Speaker 1: where people have their lives have been changed forever because
[30:52] Speaker 1: of someone having disappeared.
[30:55] Speaker 2: I work in dementia care, so I work in secure
[31:00] Speaker 2: unit in a nursing home. So I think I do
[31:02] Speaker 2: a pretty good job of keeping my people safe and
[31:07] Speaker 2: imagine if one of my people were to go missing. However,
[31:10] Speaker 2: I did have one who went missing, and I know
[31:15] Speaker 2: that his family won't mind me telling this story because
[31:17] Speaker 2: they told it at his funeral that I went to
[31:19] Speaker 2: on Monday. A beautiful man, a farmer who just loved
[31:25] Speaker 2: being out in the fields and loved his dogs and
[31:29] Speaker 2: loved his horses, and strong as a knox, but in
[31:33] Speaker 2: a nursing home with dementia, and he smashed his way
[31:36] Speaker 2: through the back gate with his wheelly walker, smashed the
[31:39] Speaker 2: padlock off the back gate and managed to get all
[31:42] Speaker 2: the way down across the New England Highway and got
[31:46] Speaker 2: himself down.
[31:46] Speaker 3: To the pub.
[31:48] Speaker 2: That's where I that's where I rescued him from, was
[31:53] Speaker 2: the pub and got him back to the nursing home.
[31:55] Speaker 2: But that's an example of a case where you know,
[31:59] Speaker 2: don't wait an hour to report them as a missing person.
[32:04] Speaker 2: If you can't find them in ten minutes, you call
[32:06] Speaker 2: the pies.
[32:08] Speaker 1: In those service immediately. Circumstances and like a dementia patient
[32:15] Speaker 1: or a young child that's at that critical time, that
[32:18] Speaker 1: early time that if you can't can't find the child
[32:22] Speaker 1: or someone like you've just described, yeah, let's get get
[32:27] Speaker 1: people onto it straight away.
[32:30] Speaker 2: So, yes, Ray Speachley. The impact that it hasn't had
[32:33] Speaker 2: on his family, his wife is she told me straight out,
[32:38] Speaker 2: she's refusing to die until his remains are found. So
[32:41] Speaker 2: she's a very stoic woman, very pragmatic woman, but she's
[32:46] Speaker 2: devoted to him. She can tell you to the minute
[32:48] Speaker 2: how long they've been married. That's coming up to sixty
[32:52] Speaker 2: eight years this year that they've been married. And she
[32:55] Speaker 2: is just so determined that to find out before she goes.
[33:01] Speaker 2: And their daughter has organized over thirty searches for her father.
[33:08] Speaker 2: So when the official police searchers finished and they said
[33:11] Speaker 2: there's no nothing more we can do. It's the terrain
[33:15] Speaker 2: is too rugged, she said, right, well then I'm going
[33:17] Speaker 2: to do it. And so she has then spent she
[33:21] Speaker 2: was down there this week tramping through the bush looking
[33:24] Speaker 2: for her dad's body. I can't imagine doing that, but
[33:28] Speaker 2: she's done it more than thirty times because she feels
[33:31] Speaker 2: this need to. She feels the families feel a helplessness
[33:37] Speaker 2: because they and that's the thing that they say to
[33:40] Speaker 2: me all the time is what should I be doing?
[33:42] Speaker 2: What more can I do? Should I be walking the
[33:45] Speaker 2: streets and sticking posters on lamp posts? Should I What
[33:50] Speaker 2: can I physically do? And so she says, well, what
[33:53] Speaker 2: I can physically do is go out there with a
[33:56] Speaker 2: machete and cut my way through the bush and try
[33:59] Speaker 2: and figure out which direction he went in and maybe
[34:01] Speaker 2: find his body.
[34:02] Speaker 3: That's all she wants thirty times.
[34:04] Speaker 1: That's the sad thing, isn't it Because my take on it,
[34:06] Speaker 1: it's like they're almost letting down the person that's disappeared
[34:10] Speaker 1: if they don't do everything they possibly possibly can.
[34:14] Speaker 3: The survivor guilt yep.
[34:16] Speaker 1: And you talk about these people, it just gives me
[34:20] Speaker 1: flashbacks of different cases like Ian Draper. He disappeared and
[34:26] Speaker 1: his mum, a beautiful, beautiful lady, just wanted answers, and
[34:29] Speaker 1: that was tied up in a major murder investigation. I
[34:32] Speaker 1: was involved in it, and we couldn't give the answers.
[34:35] Speaker 1: It was certainly suspicious in the circumstances in which he disappeared.
[34:39] Speaker 1: He wasn't a criminal. His closest association with criminal aspect
[34:44] Speaker 1: was he was a witness of a murder trial and
[34:47] Speaker 1: he finished work at a club and that was the
[34:50] Speaker 1: last time he was seeing and his car was found
[34:54] Speaker 1: the band and out the front of an outlaw motorcycle
[34:57] Speaker 1: gang's clubhouse that had been wiped down, and a lot
[35:02] Speaker 1: of suspicion attached. But we've never been able to bring
[35:04] Speaker 1: answers for and Draper's family, and there's stories like that.
[35:09] Speaker 1: I just remember how much pain that they carry just
[35:12] Speaker 1: wanting to find out what's happened exactly.
[35:16] Speaker 2: And it's a frustration and it's a guilt. Tony Farrington
[35:20] Speaker 2: has enormous guilt because he couldn't protect his little sister,
[35:24] Speaker 2: and a lot of them think, well, how can I
[35:26] Speaker 2: go on with my life? How can I have happy moments?
[35:31] Speaker 2: Lauren Whitehead's daughter felt guilty that she got married without
[35:35] Speaker 2: her mum being there. She felt like she should have
[35:38] Speaker 2: delayed the wedding until she was found. But you can't
[35:41] Speaker 2: do that forever. And as you said, sometimes they keep
[35:45] Speaker 2: the rooms exactly the same.
[35:47] Speaker 3: They refuse to move.
[35:48] Speaker 1: House because they might might I've seen that, because they
[35:52] Speaker 1: might come home. Like how sad is that?
[35:56] Speaker 2: I know exactly, Kay Dockerty's brother bought the family home
[36:01] Speaker 2: just so he would stay there, just in case k came.
[36:04] Speaker 1: Home one day, leaving the light on for them to
[36:07] Speaker 1: come home.
[36:08] Speaker 3: Leaving the light on.
[36:09] Speaker 1: That's it, the Australian Missing Persons Register. Now you set
[36:15] Speaker 1: that up. How long ago? Why twenty one years ago?
[36:20] Speaker 1: How quickly time flies? What got you interested in this aspect?
[36:25] Speaker 1: And tell us what the aim of the register is
[36:28] Speaker 1: all about.
[36:30] Speaker 2: I think it's it was I'm asked this question a lot,
[36:33] Speaker 2: and I feel like I never answer it adequately.
[36:36] Speaker 1: I think it's okay, well, you're not going to get
[36:38] Speaker 1: away that here, We're going to get right down to it.
[36:41] Speaker 2: Okay, okay. I think it's just my nature. I think
[36:47] Speaker 2: I'm a curious person and I'm interested in human nature
[36:52] Speaker 2: as you are. You are interested in the mind of
[36:55] Speaker 2: a killer. I am interested in the mind of those
[36:59] Speaker 2: killers who might take a missing person, and in the
[37:04] Speaker 2: minds of a missing person who voluntarily goes missing. It
[37:11] Speaker 2: was the curiosity factor of what happens to a person
[37:14] Speaker 2: and what is the story? And so I grew up
[37:16] Speaker 2: reading mystery books, and then I would sneak in and
[37:21] Speaker 2: get my mum's true crime books. And I read the
[37:25] Speaker 2: book about the Truro murders by Amry Makita, who was
[37:28] Speaker 2: the mother of one of the victims, and I felt
[37:31] Speaker 2: compelled to write to her because I was just so
[37:35] Speaker 2: sad about what had happened to her daughter, and I
[37:38] Speaker 2: wanted to say that let her know that her story
[37:41] Speaker 2: had touched me. I was around I was teenagers, about
[37:43] Speaker 2: the same age as Amory's daughter Juliet when she was
[37:46] Speaker 2: murdered by the true serial killer. And then Amory wrote
[37:52] Speaker 2: back and we corresponded a few times, and that really
[37:55] Speaker 2: touched me because I thought, oh, and she got some
[37:59] Speaker 2: comfort from hearing that from me, And I think that
[38:03] Speaker 2: kind of just spurred me on to have that It
[38:07] Speaker 2: wasn't just a morbid curiosity or a fascination. It was
[38:12] Speaker 2: I really cared about these people. And then in two
[38:16] Speaker 2: thousand and five, I watched a documentary about missing persons
[38:20] Speaker 2: that mentioned that there was no national database for missing persons.
[38:24] Speaker 3: And that was the time when.
[38:26] Speaker 2: The Internet was just starting and not many people had
[38:29] Speaker 2: it in their homes, but it was obvious that the
[38:32] Speaker 2: Internet was going to take over the world, and so
[38:35] Speaker 2: I sort of went looking on the internet for information
[38:38] Speaker 2: about missing persons and there wasn't any. And I had,
[38:41] Speaker 2: by that stage built up quite a large library of
[38:44] Speaker 2: true crime books and there was a lot of information
[38:46] Speaker 2: about Australia missing persons in those books. So I would
[38:50] Speaker 2: literally photo copy the photos from the books and then
[38:55] Speaker 2: scan them in an old scanner and then upload them
[38:58] Speaker 2: to a website. And I taught myself how to make
[39:00] Speaker 2: a website and thought, well, there needs to be a
[39:03] Speaker 2: resource for people. How do people know that these people
[39:06] Speaker 2: are still missing if there's nothing available? So I thought
[39:09] Speaker 2: I would just create that, and so that's how it
[39:12] Speaker 2: really started. It was just a collection of information for
[39:15] Speaker 2: people to access as a resource. And then one day
[39:20] Speaker 2: the mother of a missing young man contacted me and said,
[39:24] Speaker 2: can I add my son to your website? He's been
[39:26] Speaker 2: missing a couple of weeks. And I was so taken
[39:29] Speaker 2: aback by that. It was like, Oh, this is a
[39:31] Speaker 2: real person, this is a family. I don't know how
[39:34] Speaker 2: to do this, and I think I asked my mum,
[39:37] Speaker 2: I said, I don't know what to say to these people.
[39:39] Speaker 2: And she said, just be yourself, just you know, you
[39:41] Speaker 2: don't need to be a professional, because you're not a professional.
[39:43] Speaker 2: Just just talk to her. And so I added this
[39:47] Speaker 2: young man photo to the website and the basic information
[39:51] Speaker 2: that she had given me. And then he was found
[39:55] Speaker 2: not long after and he had taken his own life,
[39:57] Speaker 2: and I was absolutely shattered. I was how can I
[40:02] Speaker 2: talk to this woman now? How is this? I can't
[40:05] Speaker 2: do this, this is crazy. And then I did and
[40:10] Speaker 2: she was just so her overwhelming emotion was gratitude, and
[40:15] Speaker 2: I couldn't believe that, you know, you've just lost your son.
[40:17] Speaker 2: And she was just like, yeah, but you helped me.
[40:20] Speaker 2: You were there and you put his photo up, and
[40:22] Speaker 2: you tried to help me. Thank you, thank you. And
[40:24] Speaker 2: that blew me away, like wow, okay, And so I thought, well, okay,
[40:29] Speaker 2: maybe then I can help other people. So I sort
[40:32] Speaker 2: of said, well, if you have a missing person, put
[40:35] Speaker 2: my email address on there. And then that's really where
[40:37] Speaker 2: it started. And then later when Facebook was invented, that
[40:42] Speaker 2: became a way of getting the information out very quickly
[40:45] Speaker 2: to a lot of people, so missing person's information could
[40:49] Speaker 2: be disseminated within minutes of it being uploaded, and then
[40:54] Speaker 2: very gradually law enforcement grew to understand that I wasn't
[40:58] Speaker 2: some crazy woman to get notoriety, and they would then
[41:03] Speaker 2: start to refer people. So people would go into a
[41:05] Speaker 2: police station report their person missing and say what do
[41:07] Speaker 2: I do now, and they would say, okay, here's Nicole's information.
[41:11] Speaker 2: Go and talk to her and she will get the
[41:13] Speaker 2: information out for you. So it's sort of snowballed really
[41:15] Speaker 2: over the years without me realizing it.
[41:19] Speaker 1: The register, so it's sort of grown organically.
[41:21] Speaker 2: Then, yeah, it really did. I didn't end up you know, sorry.
[41:25] Speaker 2: I didn't start thinking this is what I want to achieve.
[41:29] Speaker 2: It just sort of what do people need me to do,
[41:31] Speaker 2: and I'll do that. So it became I'm not a
[41:35] Speaker 2: trained psychologist. I do have some mental health qualifications, but
[41:39] Speaker 2: I'm not a psychologist, and I'm not going to sit
[41:43] Speaker 2: down and say this is how I help you get
[41:45] Speaker 2: through this. It's more tell me what you need me
[41:48] Speaker 2: to do, and I can refer you to psychologists. You know,
[41:52] Speaker 2: New South Wales Missing Persons has a section. They've got
[41:56] Speaker 2: a psychologist on staff who specifically deal with missing persons
[42:00] Speaker 2: so I can refer them to that I can help
[42:03] Speaker 2: them through the coronial process, which I understand fairly well now,
[42:07] Speaker 2: and so it's.
[42:08] Speaker 1: Practical and it's ongoing. So if I if I said, Okay,
[42:13] Speaker 1: my brother has disappeared, haven't haven't seen him for months,
[42:17] Speaker 1: I don't know what to do. I've reported to the police.
[42:19] Speaker 1: I've said, well he's an adult, we'll take the report,
[42:23] Speaker 1: but there's not a lot we can do. I reach
[42:26] Speaker 1: out to you, and what sort of advice do you
[42:29] Speaker 1: provide me or what sort of assistance can the register help?
[42:33] Speaker 2: I would say, I don't feel that you can't ask
[42:37] Speaker 2: the police for updates because I think sometimes people feel
[42:41] Speaker 2: that they feel a bit intimidated by the police and
[42:43] Speaker 2: they feel like they're bothering them. But as you say,
[42:46] Speaker 2: adult males are sort of the lowest priority for police
[42:50] Speaker 2: to investigate, which is very frustrating to me. And the
[42:55] Speaker 2: reality is that most people don't just take off for
[42:58] Speaker 2: months and stop contacting him, single person in their lives.
[43:01] Speaker 2: How are they existing if that's what they've done. So
[43:04] Speaker 2: I say, keep pushing and if you have concerns, then
[43:09] Speaker 2: keep on it. Sometimes there's a physical search that they
[43:12] Speaker 2: can do more and more families are doing that themselves.
[43:16] Speaker 2: And just this week there was another search for Patrick
[43:20] Speaker 2: leider Key in northern New South Wales and they found
[43:22] Speaker 2: his wallet. After over a year of him being missing,
[43:26] Speaker 2: they've just suddenly found his wallet. So these community searchers
[43:29] Speaker 2: can be extremely valuable if you have some idea of
[43:33] Speaker 2: the area that they've gone missing in. But it's Sally
[43:38] Speaker 2: laid and said to me the other day, it's the
[43:39] Speaker 2: squeaky wheel syndrome. If you keep on at them, they
[43:44] Speaker 2: will listen to you and respond more. And so it's
[43:48] Speaker 2: a difficult conversation to have if I say to a family,
[43:53] Speaker 2: just be annoying and ring them and keep on at them,
[43:57] Speaker 2: because that's when they will say, okay, this we really
[44:00] Speaker 2: need to do something here because this family is frantic.
[44:03] Speaker 1: Well, Sally's quite right. We had her on the podcast
[44:06] Speaker 1: and mother Marion Barta that disappeared and again she just
[44:12] Speaker 1: had to keep pushing and pushing. So if someone comes in,
[44:15] Speaker 1: the advice that the Australian Missing Person's Register could provide
[44:20] Speaker 1: is advice as to what your rights are, what you
[44:24] Speaker 1: can do. And I'm glad that you say that. You
[44:28] Speaker 1: tell people and it seems like a simple thing. But
[44:30] Speaker 1: I've seen it time and time again, and it's not
[44:32] Speaker 1: the criticism of police. It's just this barrier that members
[44:38] Speaker 1: of the public, and quite often people that are dealing
[44:40] Speaker 1: with missing persons, have never had dealings with police, save
[44:44] Speaker 1: a parking final something like that, so they think they
[44:48] Speaker 1: haven't got the right to go into the police station
[44:50] Speaker 1: and say I want answers. Can you tell me what's
[44:53] Speaker 1: going on with the investigation, So that simple bit of
[44:56] Speaker 1: advice is good. What about just on the red so
[45:00] Speaker 1: people know about it if someone provides further information. Is
[45:04] Speaker 1: there any linkage that is done through the register if
[45:07] Speaker 1: someone disappears?
[45:09] Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean if I will absolutely. I have a
[45:12] Speaker 2: good working relationship with the National Person's misinc Coordination Center,
[45:16] Speaker 2: so I talk to them all the time and pass
[45:20] Speaker 2: on bits of information and they can update me with
[45:24] Speaker 2: bits of information, which is really good. I ask a
[45:28] Speaker 2: family for as many photos as possible, because people can
[45:31] Speaker 2: look vastly different if they've changed their appearance. If they're
[45:35] Speaker 2: still out there and they've changed their appearance, so as
[45:37] Speaker 2: many photos as possible. I was just thinking about a
[45:40] Speaker 2: case that I was dealing with last night of a
[45:42] Speaker 2: woman and I ask an awful lot of questions of people.
[45:47] Speaker 2: Possibly I don't know if the police ask as many
[45:49] Speaker 2: questions as I do, but I need to know everything.
[45:53] Speaker 2: And so we were talking about she her partner went
[45:57] Speaker 2: missing from Tasmania and was last heard from in Victoria,
[46:01] Speaker 2: and so I would I just asked her a lot
[46:03] Speaker 2: of questions. How did he get there? Was it the
[46:05] Speaker 2: spirit of Tasmania? Did he fly and then ended up?
[46:09] Speaker 2: The police found his car in a near a lookout,
[46:13] Speaker 2: So the police are assuming that he has taken his
[46:16] Speaker 2: own life. She doesn't think that. And so I've said,
[46:21] Speaker 2: just through asking all of these questions, I said, okay,
[46:24] Speaker 2: so where did he rent the car from? And she said, no,
[46:26] Speaker 2: he bought the car And I said, he bought a
[46:29] Speaker 2: car and then jumped off a cliff. Is that what
[46:32] Speaker 2: you're telling me? So immediately that's hang on a minute. Yeah,
[46:38] Speaker 2: perhaps the police have this wrong. Who buys a car
[46:40] Speaker 2: and spends all that money?
[46:42] Speaker 1: And then there's a subtle difference to renting a car
[46:45] Speaker 1: and buying a.
[46:46] Speaker 2: Car, and yeah, exactly, if you're not intending to continue
[46:51] Speaker 2: your life, why are you going out and buying a car.
[46:53] Speaker 2: So by asking all of those questions, I get a
[46:57] Speaker 2: lot more information and then can and every tiny little
[47:03] Speaker 2: bit of information. Sometimes you hear something and go, oh,
[47:05] Speaker 2: hang on a minute, radio, now that changes everything. You
[47:09] Speaker 2: said that they were heading to in this direction, but
[47:14] Speaker 2: you know they didn't like to drive, so they've actually
[47:17] Speaker 2: taken public transport, and so radio, then I need to
[47:21] Speaker 2: focus who was and send out a message and saying,
[47:24] Speaker 2: was anyone on this particular train station on this date?
[47:27] Speaker 3: You might have seen this.
[47:27] Speaker 1: Person with law enforcement agencies and you know it's a
[47:31] Speaker 1: national register. Are you having a lot of success dealing
[47:35] Speaker 1: with law enforcement agencies? Are you've been around for a
[47:39] Speaker 1: long time. Are they seeing you as a something a
[47:43] Speaker 1: useful tool that can complement what they're doing they do?
[47:47] Speaker 2: Now, I think it's and I don't like to speak
[47:52] Speaker 2: in general terms about police because I can't just say, oh, yeah,
[47:57] Speaker 2: the police are supportive of what I do, and some
[48:00] Speaker 2: aunts some I just think it's ridiculous. You know, leave
[48:04] Speaker 2: the policing to us, and that's fine. But I think
[48:07] Speaker 2: after doing it for so long, they now get they
[48:10] Speaker 2: understand what I do, and that's why I think now
[48:13] Speaker 2: I have.
[48:13] Speaker 3: A good relationship with them.
[48:14] Speaker 2: But back then it was like, why do you want
[48:17] Speaker 2: this there was There have been amazing police officers over
[48:20] Speaker 2: the years who have really embraced it and worked with me,
[48:24] Speaker 2: and because there and sometimes I had There was one
[48:27] Speaker 2: woman who was actually the subject of an age enhanced
[48:32] Speaker 2: image who went missing in Western Australia and her boyfriend
[48:37] Speaker 2: started messaging me saying some weird sort of things like
[48:43] Speaker 2: or you know, her parents really still looking for her,
[48:47] Speaker 2: and I would and I just kind of thought something's
[48:50] Speaker 2: going on here, and so I engaged with him at
[48:52] Speaker 2: the same time called the police and said something's happening here,
[48:57] Speaker 2: and they said, all right, keep talking to him. And
[48:59] Speaker 2: it turned out he was with her. She had been
[49:02] Speaker 2: missing for years and he was with her at that time,
[49:06] Speaker 2: and he was trying to figure out if he could
[49:08] Speaker 2: trust me because he felt like she should make herself known,
[49:12] Speaker 2: but she didn't want to. So it was very subtile.
[49:15] Speaker 2: And so I worked with the police over all of
[49:17] Speaker 2: this time and got her home. So that was an
[49:22] Speaker 2: incredible result. And that was an example of working directly
[49:26] Speaker 2: with the police. So the police could have said, leave
[49:28] Speaker 2: it to us, this is not this has nothing to
[49:30] Speaker 2: do with you, don't be ridiculous. But the fact is
[49:32] Speaker 2: that he trusted me and built up that trust with me,
[49:36] Speaker 2: and I was then able to get her home by
[49:39] Speaker 2: working in conjunction with police. That doesn't always happen, but
[49:43] Speaker 2: that was a really great example of them trusting that
[49:48] Speaker 2: I wasn't some lunatic.
[49:50] Speaker 1: Well, I think police are becoming more open minded to
[49:55] Speaker 1: the fact that they've got the work. We've all outside
[49:58] Speaker 1: agencies or outside groups to get the proper result. Very
[50:04] Speaker 1: much was the case going back decades and way before
[50:09] Speaker 1: that that nothing to see here, don't worry about the
[50:11] Speaker 1: police have this in hand. But the world has changed.
[50:14] Speaker 1: The world has changed, and social media has changed. Before
[50:18] Speaker 1: police could control the narrative with the traditional media about
[50:21] Speaker 1: what information goes out and what information they hang on to.
[50:25] Speaker 1: But the world has changed, and I think police, and
[50:28] Speaker 1: this is my sense, I'm looking from the outside now,
[50:31] Speaker 1: our learning are coming to terms of the fact that
[50:34] Speaker 1: society has evolved, and they've got to evolve with society
[50:37] Speaker 1: and use whatever tools can bring the right results to
[50:41] Speaker 1: an investigation or an inquiry.
[50:44] Speaker 3: I think so.
[50:44] Speaker 2: I think it has been a long period of trust though,
[50:49] Speaker 2: and I think they and I've never tried to sort
[50:54] Speaker 2: of say, oh, yes, I'm investigating this case. That's not me.
[50:58] Speaker 2: It's not my job. I'm not trained to do that.
[51:01] Speaker 2: I just want to help.
[51:02] Speaker 1: Well in defense of the police, and having been involved
[51:07] Speaker 1: in the police, the amount of people that reach out
[51:09] Speaker 1: some wacky ideas and I'm just thinking some of the examples. Now,
[51:15] Speaker 1: if I told people, they just wouldn't believe it. But yeah,
[51:18] Speaker 1: it usually starts if I get an email or text
[51:23] Speaker 1: or communication in any way that starts off with I
[51:27] Speaker 1: had a dream, and usually that's morning that they are in.
[51:33] Speaker 1: I don't write me off as being mad, but I yeah, okay,
[51:38] Speaker 1: so I would imagine you would get in undated with
[51:41] Speaker 1: that type of type of stuff.
[51:44] Speaker 2: Please please tell the police that they're they're in a
[51:47] Speaker 2: shed in a field in a town that starts with
[51:50] Speaker 2: w oh okay, absolutely fine. I had one woman who
[51:56] Speaker 2: said I gave a police information that they were somewhere
[51:59] Speaker 2: on a beat in between Sydney and.
[52:02] Speaker 1: Woollongong narrows it there and.
[52:05] Speaker 2: They haven't acted on my information. Really, okay, they have.
[52:11] Speaker 2: That's terrible.
[52:12] Speaker 1: Yeah, that's the other thing, in fairness that the police
[52:15] Speaker 1: have got to deal with. And you know, we get
[52:18] Speaker 1: pictures of the missing person out but I referenced say,
[52:22] Speaker 1: the William Turole case. That's when I was leading the investigation.
[52:27] Speaker 1: There were hundreds and hundreds and hundreds I think, and
[52:30] Speaker 1: I'm going back now, but over five hundred reported sightings
[52:34] Speaker 1: of Wim and possibly a lot more. It got to
[52:38] Speaker 1: the point where it became ludicrous. Three or four years
[52:42] Speaker 1: after William had disappeared, someone would report that they saw
[52:46] Speaker 1: a child in a Spider Man suit. Yeah, and that
[52:49] Speaker 1: was it must be William because he's wearing a Spider
[52:51] Speaker 1: Man suit. So that that can become problematic. But there's
[52:55] Speaker 1: ways of dealing with it. You can sift through the information.
[52:58] Speaker 1: But yeah, there's a lot going on there. There has
[53:01] Speaker 1: been a lot of criticism of policing in the way
[53:04] Speaker 1: that they deal with missing persons, and that's come out
[53:08] Speaker 1: in coronial inquests and parliamentary inquiries, and again not attacking individuals,
[53:15] Speaker 1: but some of the things that have been identified as
[53:18] Speaker 1: systemic failings in the way police have handled missing persons
[53:22] Speaker 1: investigations include delayed initial responses, inadequate evidence collection, poor communication
[53:29] Speaker 1: with families, which I see in your book seems to
[53:32] Speaker 1: come out time and time again, and systemic under resourcing.
[53:36] Speaker 1: So again not blaming the individual but we just don't
[53:39] Speaker 1: have the police in numbers. But breaking down those areas
[53:45] Speaker 1: that I've identified or just mentioned there, we're talking delayed
[53:49] Speaker 1: initial responses. What's your take on that.
[53:54] Speaker 2: I was reading a coroner's report this week, and again
[53:59] Speaker 2: it was an adult, and I think that's the They
[54:02] Speaker 2: just kind of go, oh, yeah, okay, we'll write down
[54:04] Speaker 2: the details, but we won't do anything about it, which
[54:08] Speaker 2: is really frustrating, and I think that they kind of
[54:10] Speaker 2: have in their head, Oh, we'll give it a couple
[54:12] Speaker 2: of days and if he comes back, then we won't
[54:15] Speaker 2: need to have done anything about this report. Otherwise we'll
[54:19] Speaker 2: look into it later. And by that stage, you CEECTV
[54:22] Speaker 2: has been wiped and your taxi driver doesn't remember who
[54:25] Speaker 2: he picked up four days before or last week. And
[54:29] Speaker 2: so that delayed initial response can be catastrophic because people
[54:33] Speaker 2: forget things and you've not got that. As you said
[54:37] Speaker 2: that those the evidence you're playing catch up when you
[54:42] Speaker 2: realize you do need to do something and that person
[54:44] Speaker 2: is still missing.
[54:45] Speaker 1: Yeah, inadequate evidence collection. Well we're touching on that. Then
[54:48] Speaker 1: that quite often happens when it's not the necessary steps
[54:52] Speaker 1: that needed to be taken weren't taken. And I should
[54:56] Speaker 1: clarify here we're talking about the negative side of things
[54:59] Speaker 1: for a flip side of it, because and you've identified
[55:02] Speaker 1: some police investigations have been spot on right from the
[55:05] Speaker 1: start the moment someone's reported missing, they've done what needs
[55:10] Speaker 1: to be done. Poor communication with families. I go on
[55:14] Speaker 1: about that a lot when I'm talking policing aspects in
[55:19] Speaker 1: the simplest thing, and I get contacted a lot with people,
[55:23] Speaker 1: even though I'm out of the police, talking about issues
[55:26] Speaker 1: they have with police, and invariably it comes down to
[55:29] Speaker 1: poor communication and not that they don't understand what they're saying.
[55:33] Speaker 1: That's basically they're not passing on information that if they
[55:36] Speaker 1: had passed that information on it would put the family's
[55:39] Speaker 1: mind to these or just updated on what they're doing.
[55:42] Speaker 1: What's your take on that, Well, just.
[55:47] Speaker 2: This week I had a family of a long term
[55:50] Speaker 2: missing person say we'd really like to speak to whoever
[55:54] Speaker 2: has the file currently because they haven't heard from police
[55:57] Speaker 2: in years. And that's pretty typical. And so I went
[56:01] Speaker 2: to the Federal Police and said, could could you ask
[56:05] Speaker 2: whoever has the file give this family a call? And
[56:08] Speaker 2: they said, okay, what's his phone number? I said, right, okay,
[56:15] Speaker 2: here is the phone number. Why don't you have that?
[56:18] Speaker 2: And why don't New Southo's police have that? And if
[56:22] Speaker 2: you had found her, how are you going to call
[56:24] Speaker 2: him and say that you had found her? Why don't
[56:27] Speaker 2: you have the contact details for these families. It doesn't
[56:30] Speaker 2: make a lot of sense to me. And it's the
[56:33] Speaker 2: communication is so vital because the families feel, they literally
[56:39] Speaker 2: feel that they have been forgotten, and in many cases
[56:41] Speaker 2: they have been forgotten. If there's if the case hasn't
[56:44] Speaker 2: progressed at all, just a little bit of communication between
[56:48] Speaker 2: police and families, even once a year. I'm the speechlea
[56:53] Speaker 2: case that I mentioned before, there was a police officer
[56:56] Speaker 2: who would call every year and say, I haven't got
[56:59] Speaker 2: any information, but I just needed to tell you that
[57:02] Speaker 2: I haven't forgotten him.
[57:04] Speaker 1: It's appreciated this. Yeah, that's the difference. That type of
[57:09] Speaker 1: communication can make the systemic under resourcing. I know just
[57:15] Speaker 1: from my time, and I can only speak in regards
[57:18] Speaker 1: to New South Wales Police, but the Missing Persons unit
[57:22] Speaker 1: needed an overhaul. And that's a kind way of saying
[57:25] Speaker 1: that there were things that weren't being done that needed
[57:28] Speaker 1: to be done. I've been away from it for years now.
[57:31] Speaker 1: I don't know, but I got the sense that was
[57:33] Speaker 1: being linked more closely with the homicide unit, working with
[57:37] Speaker 1: the homicide unit, and I think they learned from their mistakes. Unfortunately,
[57:42] Speaker 1: because these are historic matters, some of the mistakes are
[57:46] Speaker 1: still carrying through to today. But I get the sense
[57:49] Speaker 1: that they're starting to understand the importance of treating missing
[57:54] Speaker 1: persons properly. There's a parliamentary inquiry running at the moment
[57:58] Speaker 1: in New South Wales, Parliamentary Inquiry about Missing persons and
[58:02] Speaker 1: on the mid North Coast of New South Wales. Your
[58:07] Speaker 1: observation of things, do you think we are getting better
[58:10] Speaker 1: at it? Do you think we're starting to understand the
[58:12] Speaker 1: importance of We're chipping away and starting to realize, okay,
[58:16] Speaker 1: we need to take these cases more seriously to start with.
[58:20] Speaker 3: I think so.
[58:21] Speaker 2: And something that has come out of the parliamentary inquiry
[58:26] Speaker 2: that has astonished me is that suddenly there's hundreds of
[58:31] Speaker 2: new cases that have appeared on the National Missing Persons
[58:34] Speaker 2: Coordination Center website. So all of these cases, I don't
[58:38] Speaker 2: know where they've been all these years. I guess in
[58:41] Speaker 2: a dusty file somewhere and suddenly they've said, Okay, we
[58:45] Speaker 2: need to be thorough about this inquiry, and so we're
[58:49] Speaker 2: going to pull all of these cases out and make
[58:51] Speaker 2: sure that everyone is aware that these people are still missing.
[58:55] Speaker 2: So I've added so many people to the register just
[58:59] Speaker 2: in the last couple of months, which is really good.
[59:03] Speaker 2: My concern is if the inquiry is going to focus
[59:05] Speaker 2: on is not going to take each case individually. I
[59:10] Speaker 2: think that's my only concern because there's for every missing person,
[59:15] Speaker 2: there's a different reason why they've gone missing, and I
[59:18] Speaker 2: think we need to you know, this woman has been
[59:21] Speaker 2: killed by her husband, this woman was taken by a
[59:23] Speaker 2: serial killer. This woman wandered off into the bush and
[59:27] Speaker 2: was lost, so we can't. It concerns me if they're
[59:30] Speaker 2: being lumped together and not looked at individually, because I
[59:34] Speaker 2: think that's really important.
[59:35] Speaker 1: Well, I think the key word is looked at. That's
[59:38] Speaker 1: how they may need to be assessed, and there needs
[59:41] Speaker 1: to be a triage of a system going through that
[59:44] Speaker 1: they Okay, this one needs attention, This one is an
[59:47] Speaker 1: area of concern. We need to focus our resources there.
[59:51] Speaker 1: From my learning through policing the importance of starting something
[59:56] Speaker 1: off properly, it always leads or nine times out of
[59:59] Speaker 1: ten leads to a successful result in the end, if
[1:00:02] Speaker 1: it's done properly from the start. So that's you know,
[1:00:06] Speaker 1: when we're talking missing persons, you've got i know, in
[1:00:10] Speaker 1: the unidentified remains, Like if someone's missing and let's say
[1:00:15] Speaker 1: it has to wait, that might be fair enough to
[1:00:17] Speaker 1: wait for the three months till they become a long
[1:00:19] Speaker 1: term missing person if the circumstances don't dictate it being
[1:00:23] Speaker 1: put at the higher level straight away DNA from family members,
[1:00:27] Speaker 1: so if remains are found, as simple as that that
[1:00:30] Speaker 1: they can check who belongs to the remains and potentially
[1:00:36] Speaker 1: put family's minds to these, like if they're finding out
[1:00:40] Speaker 1: what's happened to their loved one.
[1:00:42] Speaker 3: Absolutely.
[1:00:44] Speaker 2: There's a case that I've written about in the book though,
[1:00:47] Speaker 2: where the family provided DNA and police lost it, and
[1:00:51] Speaker 2: so they provided DNA again, and then the police came
[1:00:54] Speaker 2: back to this family a third time and said, oh,
[1:00:56] Speaker 2: we need to take DNA and the missing woman's brother said,
[1:01:00] Speaker 2: you've got it twice. Why and they said, oh, because
[1:01:03] Speaker 2: it's gone missing again and they said, then I'm not
[1:01:06] Speaker 2: doing it, and which you can understand you'd think, oh, well,
[1:01:11] Speaker 2: you know, you have to do it because what if
[1:01:12] Speaker 2: they find a body? But you can understand their frustration
[1:01:16] Speaker 2: and their lack of trust in the police if that
[1:01:19] Speaker 2: isn't being followed through. So it's there are protocols and
[1:01:23] Speaker 2: checklists that need to that need to happen, but they
[1:01:26] Speaker 2: also need to be taking precious care of this evidence.
[1:01:30] Speaker 2: And Jan Speechley said the same thing about her husband.
[1:01:32] Speaker 2: She had to for some weird reason, she had to
[1:01:36] Speaker 2: approach Camberra Hospital herself and say I would like the
[1:01:40] Speaker 2: hospital medical samples of my husband's DNA so that I
[1:01:44] Speaker 2: can give this to the police. Why aren't the police
[1:01:46] Speaker 2: doing that? Why did Jan have to go to the
[1:01:49] Speaker 2: hospital and say I need my husband's DNA. That's crazy
[1:01:52] Speaker 2: to me that there are certain things, the protocols that
[1:01:55] Speaker 2: police need to follow to minimize the distress to the family.
[1:02:00] Speaker 1: I think if we put the protocols in place and
[1:02:03] Speaker 1: the operating procedures, that takes away and you've touched on it,
[1:02:09] Speaker 1: and I know it's you'll have some dedicated, good police
[1:02:13] Speaker 1: and you'll have some that drop the ball more times
[1:02:17] Speaker 1: than not. But if you've got the protocols in place,
[1:02:19] Speaker 1: the system in place that prevents it because sometimes it's
[1:02:23] Speaker 1: a lottery. You walk into the police station. That depends
[1:02:25] Speaker 1: which police officers standing at the counter of what dictates
[1:02:29] Speaker 1: the response you're going to get from the complaint. But
[1:02:32] Speaker 1: the way to overcome that and ensure a good quality
[1:02:35] Speaker 1: is putting systems, systems in place. And look again, watching
[1:02:39] Speaker 1: from the outside, I get the sense that they're waking
[1:02:42] Speaker 1: up to the situation that we've got to make sure
[1:02:45] Speaker 1: that we do things properly, and I hope they are
[1:02:48] Speaker 1: because it's for everyone's benefits. How about we take a
[1:02:51] Speaker 1: break now. When we come back, we'll talk about some
[1:02:54] Speaker 1: of the many cases that you've dealt with over the
[1:02:58] Speaker 1: years and the cons you've had with the families. We'll
[1:03:02] Speaker 1: look at ways of improving it and just breaking down again,
[1:03:05] Speaker 1: just digging into missing persons, what constitutes it, how we
[1:03:08] Speaker 1: should approach it, and a whole other range of things.
[1:03:11] Speaker 1: So let's take a break and we'll be back shortly.
[1:03:14] Speaker 1: Wonderful cheers,

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