# The best confession police had ever heard: Caroline Clarke Pt. 2

An episode of [I Catch Killers with Gary Jubelin](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1506667049), 27 Jul 2026, 1 h 08 min.

Audio: https://p.podderapp.com/2544644999/traffic.omny.fm/d/clips/2fb3740d-3436-44af-8cc0-a91900716aa5/5bc8c2ed-b718-4f44-beb3-ac2a005246cc/5771a884-a2c4-4140-aea5-b494002e9c48/audio.mp3?utm_source=Podcast&in_playlist=786928c3-10c1-4cef-a7bf-ac2a005246d0

Less than 10% of reported sexual assaults result in a conviction in Australia. So, what does it actually take to bring a rapist to justice? In part 2 of former police officer and survivor Caroline Clarke’s chat with Gary Jubelin, we find out exactly that. In this episode, Caroline details the aftermath of being sexually assaulted by a massage therapist - from the agonising decision to report, to becoming an active force in her case recording a confession that police called "the best they’d ever heard". Caroline also unpacks one of the most misunderstood reactions in trauma - the freeze response, a survival mechanism hardwired into all of us. Yet it still continues to be used against survivors in courtrooms, in conversations, and in their own heads. Caroline breaks down why it happens, how it works, and why the shame so many survivors carry about it is not only unfair, it's wrong. Subscribe to our new Youtube channel. Follow I Catch Killers: Instagram: @icatchkillers Tiktok: @icatchkillerspodcast Facebook: @icatchkillers See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

## Transcript

[0:01] Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.
[0:05] Speaker 1: Detective sy aside of life the average person is never
[0:08] Speaker 1: exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop.
[0:11] Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.
[0:14] Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a
[0:16] Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,
[0:20] Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.
[0:23] Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories
[0:26] Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw
[0:28] Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some
[0:31] Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because
[0:34] Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.
[0:38] Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.
[0:46] Speaker 1: Less than ten percent of reported sexual assaults result in
[0:49] Speaker 1: a conviction in Australia. So what does it actually take
[0:52] Speaker 1: to bring a rapist to justice? In Part two of
[0:55] Speaker 1: my conversation with former police officer and sexual assault survivor
[0:59] Speaker 1: Carolyn Clark, we find out exactly that Caroline became an
[1:03] Speaker 1: active force in her own case, navigating a justice system
[1:07] Speaker 1: she once served to ensure the man who assaulted her
[1:10] Speaker 1: faced consequences. We also unpack one of the most misunderstood
[1:15] Speaker 1: reactions in trauma, the freeze response. It's not a weakness
[1:19] Speaker 1: or a choice, but rather a survival mechanism hardwired into us,
[1:24] Speaker 1: yet one that continues to be used against survivors in courtrooms,
[1:28] Speaker 1: in conversations, and even in their own heads. Caroline breaks
[1:32] Speaker 1: down why it happens, how it works, and why the
[1:35] Speaker 1: shame so many survivors carry about it is not only unfair,
[1:39] Speaker 1: it's also wrong. Carolin Clarke, Welcome back to part two
[1:44] Speaker 1: of I Catchkillers. Thank you before we start, Can I
[1:48] Speaker 1: just read out a passage It's about about your journey,
[1:53] Speaker 1: and I think it'll give us some talking points. Caroline
[1:57] Speaker 1: was raped, and in the aftermath of the most viole
[2:00] Speaker 1: lady in experience of her life, something unexpected happened. She
[2:03] Speaker 1: stopped being silent for the first time, she refused to
[2:06] Speaker 1: carry shame that was never hers. She traced every pattern,
[2:10] Speaker 1: every wound, every moment she had been taught to stay quiet,
[2:14] Speaker 1: all the way back to where it began, and she
[2:17] Speaker 1: found her voice, not the performance of it, the real one. Again.
[2:24] Speaker 1: A lot to unpack there. Taught me through what was
[2:27] Speaker 1: meant in what I just read out.
[2:30] Speaker 2: So to continue after I got home, and then I
[2:35] Speaker 2: did what I'd always done, which was I'll just keep
[2:38] Speaker 2: it inside tell anyone through fear of what the repercushions
[2:42] Speaker 2: might be. Now by day two, the shame was that
[2:48] Speaker 2: heavy and insidious. I remember thinking, gosh, I can so
[2:52] Speaker 2: see how people don't want to be here anymore. To
[2:56] Speaker 2: end it, you were feeling that shame, it was, I can.
[3:01] Speaker 2: It's like it was almost like a dark cloud had descended,
[3:04] Speaker 2: and I wanted it to disappear. And as the days
[3:09] Speaker 2: went on, the shame got worse, which also made me
[3:12] Speaker 2: understand is this what people carry? And it's I feel
[3:16] Speaker 2: like I'd carried it my whole life, and I was
[3:19] Speaker 2: ready to put it down, to lay it down, and
[3:23] Speaker 2: I guess this was an opportunity, but the readiness to
[3:27] Speaker 2: go and do that. Yeah, when people say, oh, why
[3:31] Speaker 2: didn't you report straight away, it's not as simple as that.
[3:34] Speaker 2: You have to be really ready to sit down and
[3:37] Speaker 2: talk through one of the most violating experiences of your
[3:41] Speaker 2: sacred body to a stranger and then explain why you
[3:44] Speaker 2: didn't fight back. I mean, you have to be ready
[3:47] Speaker 2: for that. Yeah.
[3:48] Speaker 1: So these were all the things that were going through
[3:50] Speaker 1: your mind at the time, and you know, just pulling
[3:54] Speaker 1: back on that a little bit, you were saying you
[3:56] Speaker 1: didn't want to be there? Is that how low that
[3:59] Speaker 1: you got?
[4:00] Speaker 2: I was solow. I didn't want to leave the house.
[4:03] Speaker 2: I just thought, how can I continue? It's as if
[4:07] Speaker 2: I come to a crossroads in my life where there
[4:10] Speaker 2: was no choice. I couldn't carry all the things I
[4:13] Speaker 2: carried and add that to the backpack of silence, if
[4:18] Speaker 2: that makes sense. It's like a part of me was
[4:20] Speaker 2: saying I'm done. I can't continue. So I actually rang
[4:25] Speaker 2: a friend of mine who was living in Costa Rica.
[4:29] Speaker 2: So I've got something to tell you, and of course
[4:30] Speaker 2: it tell me, tell me, and I couldn't get the
[4:32] Speaker 2: words out, and eventually I did, and he said, if
[4:35] Speaker 2: you don't go and report this, you're just going to
[4:38] Speaker 2: keep continuing the same cycle your whole life, where people
[4:42] Speaker 2: in circumstances will keep coming in to keep you silent.
[4:45] Speaker 2: And I felt like I want to live a life
[4:48] Speaker 2: of freedom. I don't want to keep being silent. So
[4:52] Speaker 2: he said to me, well, my friends, the head of
[4:54] Speaker 2: the DV unit on the Gold Coast, as a friend,
[4:59] Speaker 2: can I get him to call you you and have
[5:00] Speaker 2: a conversation. So that felt like it wasn't walking into
[5:03] Speaker 2: a police station. It was a police officer, but.
[5:05] Speaker 1: It was less confronting than you turning up on announswer exactly.
[5:10] Speaker 2: So he called me an hour later and it was
[5:12] Speaker 2: beautiful and he said, look, you know, he explained the
[5:16] Speaker 2: seriousness of it, but he said, you don't have to
[5:18] Speaker 2: do anything with it if you're not ready. So he
[5:20] Speaker 2: was lobby give me permission to sit with it. And
[5:23] Speaker 2: then the following week, which would have been a week
[5:26] Speaker 2: after it happened, I spoke to a friend and she said,
[5:29] Speaker 2: you've got You've got to go to the police station.
[5:32] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[5:32] Speaker 2: So I went to a police station straight away. I
[5:36] Speaker 2: don't know what I was thinking to even just go
[5:37] Speaker 2: by myself, like, not even to think about getting a
[5:40] Speaker 2: support person. I remember walking into the desk and seeing
[5:44] Speaker 2: the uniformed officer thinking, I used to be that, I
[5:47] Speaker 2: used to do that. How the heck have I ended
[5:49] Speaker 2: up in this situation?
[5:50] Speaker 1: Coming it's hard for place to see themselves as victims
[5:54] Speaker 1: when they're being on the other side of the counter.
[5:58] Speaker 2: And you notice the words that I used, Well, is
[6:00] Speaker 2: how did I get myself in this situation. So again
[6:03] Speaker 2: that blame of this is my fault. I put myself there.
[6:06] Speaker 2: I didn't protect myself. So imagine if I've gone in
[6:09] Speaker 2: there carrying a sense of this is somehow my fault,
[6:13] Speaker 2: then you're already on the back foot to then explain
[6:17] Speaker 2: that this was something that happened to me. It's not
[6:19] Speaker 2: something that I invited. So I said to her, you know,
[6:23] Speaker 2: I want to speak to a female officer. Of course,
[6:25] Speaker 2: then they know it's some form of I guess sexual
[6:28] Speaker 2: or domestic violence. So I sat down and I explained
[6:31] Speaker 2: to her what happened, and she went he did what?
[6:35] Speaker 2: And her response alone, and I said, is that bad?
[6:38] Speaker 2: She's like Caroline? And I thought, okay, this is not
[6:42] Speaker 2: just going to be something that I can just brush
[6:44] Speaker 2: off with a give him a slap on the wrisk,
[6:47] Speaker 2: go around and talk to him. So then she brought
[6:50] Speaker 2: a detective in, and of course, I think being an
[6:54] Speaker 2: ext police officer worked in my favor, but also went
[6:57] Speaker 2: against me because I knew the journey a victim. I'd
[7:03] Speaker 2: been in the witness box as a police officer. I'd
[7:05] Speaker 2: been cross examined, and as you remember, it's the most
[7:09] Speaker 2: terrifying place to be, and I didn't want to go there,
[7:14] Speaker 2: so I gave a statement, but not a statement that
[7:18] Speaker 2: was going to then leading to anything. At that moment
[7:20] Speaker 2: in time, told them what had happened, and he went,
[7:23] Speaker 2: you know that's rape. I remember my whole body going oh,
[7:28] Speaker 2: and a part of me went, oh, this is serious now,
[7:31] Speaker 2: like this isn't just something that happened that I can
[7:36] Speaker 2: just forget about.
[7:37] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[7:38] Speaker 2: I said, well, what now, and he said, well, it's
[7:40] Speaker 2: probably high chance it would go to trial. So as
[7:42] Speaker 2: soon as I heard trial, and as went I'm not ready,
[7:46] Speaker 2: and I literally got up and ran out of the
[7:47] Speaker 2: police station.
[7:48] Speaker 1: Because with your experience, you'd understand the nature of what
[7:51] Speaker 1: the trial would mean and the questions that would be
[7:54] Speaker 1: asked of you and all the things that would be put.
[7:57] Speaker 2: There, and already going in there, going this is something
[8:00] Speaker 2: my fault. Well that's what they're going to prey upon.
[8:03] Speaker 2: As we know, it's all about consent, one word against
[8:07] Speaker 2: the other. And how can I go in there and
[8:11] Speaker 2: prove that I didn't willingly ask for that and the
[8:15] Speaker 2: fact that I froze, How the heck do I explain that?
[8:19] Speaker 1: I can see why you conflicted, Like looking at it
[8:23] Speaker 1: purely from an evidentary point of view. It's a difficult
[8:26] Speaker 1: one to prove. And you make this complaint formal, you're
[8:31] Speaker 1: the one that the whole case is going to rely
[8:33] Speaker 1: upon your your evidence.
[8:36] Speaker 2: So I left, yep, and I went home, and I
[8:39] Speaker 2: think it was a good few days later. Again, there
[8:43] Speaker 2: has to be that readiness. It's a process. It's not
[8:46] Speaker 2: something you just go right, I'm going to make a decision.
[8:49] Speaker 2: So I went back in and they all went, we
[8:53] Speaker 2: are so glad that you're that you were ready. Yes,
[8:58] Speaker 2: I think the support that I got, yeah, because of
[9:01] Speaker 2: course they knew my background. You could see that I
[9:03] Speaker 2: was a credible witness when I explain what happened in
[9:06] Speaker 2: such detail, and they I think, just you don't make
[9:08] Speaker 2: that stuff up. So I would say my experience with
[9:12] Speaker 2: the police was the second to none, Like they were
[9:16] Speaker 2: incredible from start to finish.
[9:18] Speaker 1: That's great too. I like hearing that the police responded
[9:23] Speaker 1: that way. And I think another thing, and people that
[9:27] Speaker 1: have been in similar situations as yourself get further traumatized
[9:32] Speaker 1: if once they walk into the police station, that gets
[9:34] Speaker 1: taken out of their hands. I think it's important that
[9:37] Speaker 1: you as a person that's been assaulted, has control of
[9:40] Speaker 1: the situation, whether you wanted to make a formal complaint,
[9:44] Speaker 1: because otherwise it just causes more trauma. You have power
[9:48] Speaker 1: taken away from you again. If you think you walk
[9:50] Speaker 1: into a police station you're not going to have any
[9:52] Speaker 1: say in the matter, but you do.
[9:54] Speaker 2: And just by them saying that, look, you come back
[9:56] Speaker 2: when you're ready, we're here waiting means that you've got
[9:59] Speaker 2: the authority and it's not all the longer you imagine
[10:03] Speaker 2: being told or the longer you leave it, the less
[10:05] Speaker 2: chance that you're going to get to get a conviction. Here.
[10:08] Speaker 2: They were like, we're waiting, come back. And I remember
[10:11] Speaker 2: one of the heads of news police, the detective. He
[10:15] Speaker 2: said to me, we believe you, Caroline. And I can't
[10:19] Speaker 2: tell you what those three words that would mean. And
[10:22] Speaker 2: I think if there's anything that I wanted to go
[10:24] Speaker 2: out and say to the public, if someone comes to
[10:26] Speaker 2: you who's been violated abusing any way, when someone says
[10:30] Speaker 2: I believe you, it's almost like nectar, Yeah.
[10:34] Speaker 1: Yeah, I can understand going in there. And if you've
[10:39] Speaker 1: been questioned about it, than people have got douts that
[10:42] Speaker 1: you've been traumatized again.
[10:45] Speaker 2: Completely and having to sort of relive it. But then
[10:48] Speaker 2: you are sitting there going if he gets arrested, he
[10:51] Speaker 2: could go one of two ways. He either says I
[10:54] Speaker 2: did it, which I really believe in my heart he would. Yeah. Probably. Again,
[10:58] Speaker 2: that little naive part surely is going to be honest.
[11:01] Speaker 2: Surely is just going to own up to it, because
[11:03] Speaker 2: that's the beautiful heart in me that thinks people just
[11:06] Speaker 2: tell the truth, right. Yeah, And then another part of
[11:10] Speaker 2: me is asking if he doesn't, how does then that
[11:13] Speaker 2: look for me and my four sons. I'm a single mom,
[11:17] Speaker 2: you know, how would I navigate this while raising boys?
[11:22] Speaker 1: And I would understand too. There's a public aspector as well,
[11:26] Speaker 1: when it goes to court that Yeah, if it's in NUSA,
[11:29] Speaker 1: in that area, you know a lot of people in
[11:31] Speaker 1: the area, and yeah, this type of thing would become
[11:34] Speaker 1: very public.
[11:35] Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a small community, and I think I'm quite
[11:39] Speaker 2: a private person and going into a witness box and
[11:43] Speaker 2: talking about someone violating, say those parts of your body,
[11:47] Speaker 2: and having to talk about that in public. Yes, is
[11:52] Speaker 2: it's not for the faint hearted.
[11:56] Speaker 1: Once it's been reported. You took a couple of I
[12:00] Speaker 1: used to go into the place after speaking to a friend,
[12:03] Speaker 1: and then a week to the side that you're goin
[12:06] Speaker 1: to pursued with it. What were the next things that
[12:08] Speaker 1: next things that happened.
[12:11] Speaker 2: Well, firstly, it's almost like I had this angel that
[12:14] Speaker 2: was guiding me, because I remember closing my eyes and saying,
[12:18] Speaker 2: there's absolutely no way I want to go through a trial.
[12:21] Speaker 2: It was almost if if there was certainty that it
[12:24] Speaker 2: would go to trial, I would have pulled out, Like
[12:27] Speaker 2: there was every single part of the screaming no, no.
[12:31] Speaker 2: And then this voice came in and it said, what
[12:34] Speaker 2: if you don't have to go to trial. It was
[12:37] Speaker 2: whether it's my mom on the either side, I don't know,
[12:39] Speaker 2: And I just said, oh, what do you mean? And
[12:41] Speaker 2: this voice said, just take the next right move for you.
[12:44] Speaker 2: And that's what I tell my clients. Don't think about
[12:47] Speaker 2: three months, six months, nine months. If you take the
[12:50] Speaker 2: next right move, the next door will just automatically open.
[12:52] Speaker 2: It'll be the right door. So it's almost like the
[12:55] Speaker 2: message I give my clients was being regurgitated back to me.
[12:59] Speaker 2: So I said, okay, I'm red and then Brooke, one
[13:01] Speaker 2: of the females, said there's a possibility you could make
[13:04] Speaker 2: a call to him and have a conversation and see
[13:09] Speaker 2: if you'll admit it. And I thought, oh, maybe that
[13:12] Speaker 2: voice was correct. It's almost like I was being guided.
[13:15] Speaker 2: There was a bigger part of me, or something about
[13:17] Speaker 2: me that knew that, and I didn't understand that that
[13:20] Speaker 2: was ever a possibility. So there was a sense of
[13:22] Speaker 2: relief that thought, Okay, if he admits it. I knew
[13:26] Speaker 2: then that the evidence for me would be so substantial
[13:32] Speaker 2: it could then end up in a conviction. So I said,
[13:35] Speaker 2: thinking it's the most terrifying thing I could ever do. However,
[13:38] Speaker 2: and prepared to give it a go.
[13:40] Speaker 1: And you contacted him and got admission. I did so
[13:46] Speaker 1: good on you.
[13:47] Speaker 2: Was a spur of the moment thing. And I called
[13:50] Speaker 2: him and in order to get the confession out, had
[13:54] Speaker 2: to name everything that he did, which again was pretty scary.
[13:59] Speaker 2: If I do it from the heart and just have
[14:01] Speaker 2: a conversation with him and just ask him like I
[14:04] Speaker 2: wanted answers. Gary, So I've got an opportunity. Now, Yes,
[14:08] Speaker 2: I get it recorded, but I also get answers for myself,
[14:12] Speaker 2: which was why why me? I'm curious? And he said
[14:19] Speaker 2: I had a crush on you, and I said, I
[14:23] Speaker 2: work in trauma and I work with clients and we
[14:26] Speaker 2: have a duty of care. If there's any sense of
[14:29] Speaker 2: desire or feelings, if you keep that to yourself and
[14:35] Speaker 2: don't disclose that, then you're taking away an opportunity for
[14:39] Speaker 2: me to feel safe in your company. If you would
[14:42] Speaker 2: have told me that you had feelings, is no way
[14:46] Speaker 2: that I would have undressed and got on that bed. Yes,
[14:49] Speaker 2: So he had these feelings way before that fourth session,
[14:53] Speaker 2: kept it to himself, and in that moment he swooped
[14:56] Speaker 2: in and violated a body that was semi unconscious, relaxed, fully, trusting,
[15:04] Speaker 2: and with the freeze response. It tends to happen more
[15:09] Speaker 2: so when you're in a place where you assume trust,
[15:13] Speaker 2: because there's if someone grabs you off the street. You know,
[15:16] Speaker 2: people walking down the street, you might be a little
[15:18] Speaker 2: bit you can hear footsteps behind you, or you might
[15:21] Speaker 2: look at a figure that looks, you know, a little
[15:23] Speaker 2: bit dodgy, and you sort of sem me aware. Imagine
[15:26] Speaker 2: lying on a bed or asleep at night next to
[15:30] Speaker 2: a partner who you've said, I don't want to have
[15:32] Speaker 2: any sex tonight, and you're already relaxed. So he swept
[15:36] Speaker 2: in a moment when I least expected it. So that's
[15:40] Speaker 2: the most dangerous time because it's some unfamiliar who you'll
[15:43] Speaker 2: never ever think will cross a boundary with you in
[15:46] Speaker 2: that moment. So I got the confession. He apologized profusely,
[15:53] Speaker 2: saying my bad, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. I named everything
[15:56] Speaker 2: he did to me, and I said to him, you know,
[15:59] Speaker 2: I may never ever enter a room with a male
[16:03] Speaker 2: in this situation, goin a professional in a medical setting.
[16:06] Speaker 2: You've robbed me of that opportunity, and you need to
[16:12] Speaker 2: go on your own journey and I need to go online.
[16:16] Speaker 2: But I trusted you, and when you've breached someone's trust
[16:20] Speaker 2: in that situation, it cannot affect someone for the rest
[16:23] Speaker 2: of their life. So that lasted about four and a
[16:28] Speaker 2: half minutes. We were meant to meet that day and
[16:30] Speaker 2: actually see each other face to face, but of course
[16:33] Speaker 2: the call happened before, which was great, and he said,
[16:37] Speaker 2: please still meet me. I want to make it up
[16:39] Speaker 2: to you. He was panicking because I think on that
[16:42] Speaker 2: call he wasn't sure how I felt right, And I
[16:47] Speaker 2: got the chance to vocalize that and say, do you
[16:49] Speaker 2: realize what you've done constitutes rape? In that moment, his
[16:54] Speaker 2: world fell apart, And I don't think it fell apart
[16:57] Speaker 2: because he took any accountability, fell apart because it'd been caught.
[17:03] Speaker 2: So we put the phone down and then Brooke with
[17:07] Speaker 2: the detective, came in and said, that's the best recorded
[17:11] Speaker 2: confession I've ever heard. And I realized that all of
[17:15] Speaker 2: my police background, it's like it was sitting there waiting
[17:19] Speaker 2: for an opportunity, Yeah, for me to make someone accountable,
[17:25] Speaker 2: to have a voice, to be heard, and to do
[17:29] Speaker 2: it in such a way that I had composure. I
[17:33] Speaker 2: just put everything aside. It's like I was back in
[17:36] Speaker 2: a role I had a job to do in that
[17:38] Speaker 2: form minutes and I couldn't believe how quickly it kicked in,
[17:42] Speaker 2: because after the call, the shake started. So I think
[17:45] Speaker 2: I've obviously got this great ability in that moment which
[17:48] Speaker 2: to switch it on.
[17:50] Speaker 1: At what point in time was he charged? And did
[17:52] Speaker 1: the police tell you that that? Again? The charging?
[17:55] Speaker 2: So just after the confession, they didn't have many hours
[17:57] Speaker 2: left of their shift, and this was a Saturday, and
[18:01] Speaker 2: they said, I said, oh, when you're going to arrest him, Oh,
[18:03] Speaker 2: we'll get him on Monday morning. Monday morning, it's now Saturday,
[18:08] Speaker 2: and bearing in mind massage therapists are not regulated, so
[18:12] Speaker 2: he could continue massaging. My biggest fear was him doing
[18:17] Speaker 2: that to somebody else. I felt like it was my
[18:19] Speaker 2: duty of care to stop him from providing those services
[18:23] Speaker 2: to anybody else. I said, the police, can you put
[18:26] Speaker 2: it on his bail conditions? I don't want him. No, no, no,
[18:28] Speaker 2: we can't do that because what about the old lady
[18:30] Speaker 2: down the streets. She might say, you can't take his
[18:32] Speaker 2: livelihood away? I was like, are you kidding me? Like so,
[18:36] Speaker 2: they were going to do it on the Monday. Then
[18:38] Speaker 2: I got a barrage of text messages from him over
[18:41] Speaker 2: and over. He was spiraling out of contract. So they said,
[18:47] Speaker 2: oh well for places, Well it was almost fun. They said,
[18:50] Speaker 2: oh well, I said, what am I supposed to do
[18:52] Speaker 2: with this? I said, well, if you think he's going
[18:53] Speaker 2: to commit suicide, dad triple zero And I said, you
[18:57] Speaker 2: can't put that responsibility on me. So I think in
[19:01] Speaker 2: that time that I left the station, they decided to
[19:03] Speaker 2: go out and get him that day. So that was
[19:06] Speaker 2: the seventh of December twenty twenty four.
[19:09] Speaker 1: How did you feel when he was found out that
[19:11] Speaker 1: he was main charged.
[19:14] Speaker 2: Well, he didn't have an interview like in the UK,
[19:17] Speaker 2: everybody's interviewed and they've got a right to not reply.
[19:21] Speaker 2: He didn't have an interview, so he didn't get to
[19:24] Speaker 2: give his version of events, which felt a little bit disappointing.
[19:28] Speaker 2: It was finding saying it on the phone, But then
[19:30] Speaker 2: what would happen in that situation where he's been interviewed
[19:33] Speaker 2: by police, So he never knew that that call was recorded.
[19:38] Speaker 2: It was never put to him because he wasn't interviewed.
[19:41] Speaker 2: So from the seventh of December until the start of March,
[19:45] Speaker 2: it took three months for all the evidence to be
[19:47] Speaker 2: put together and the brief of evidence, so he didn't know.
[19:51] Speaker 2: So of course, going out into the community, it was
[19:53] Speaker 2: all this is unfounded and untrue and I'm an innocent man.
[19:57] Speaker 2: So you can only imagine when that brief of evidence
[19:59] Speaker 2: lant on his lawyer's desk, when they realized that it
[20:04] Speaker 2: wasn't just it was a call that had been recorded.
[20:07] Speaker 2: So I thought, surely he's going to play guilty. I
[20:11] Speaker 2: just wanted it to be over so that I could
[20:13] Speaker 2: then start to heal and not just be again. I've
[20:16] Speaker 2: just got to be composed and get through this. But no,
[20:20] Speaker 2: he pleaded not guilty all the way through.
[20:23] Speaker 1: So you would have had the concerns of giving evidence,
[20:27] Speaker 1: knowing the traumadica time you're going to have in the
[20:30] Speaker 1: witness box and the type of questions that they're going
[20:32] Speaker 1: to be asked of you. His name is public, isn't
[20:35] Speaker 1: it yea? His name yeah, Cameron Petrie.
[20:39] Speaker 2: He was had a massage room in Sunshine Beach on
[20:44] Speaker 2: the Sunshine Coast.
[20:45] Speaker 1: Charge one count of rape and two counts of sexual assault.
[20:48] Speaker 2: The DPP increased the charges. It was just sexual assault
[20:52] Speaker 2: I think it was three charges and then they they
[20:55] Speaker 2: changed them to aggravated sexual assault, which I was quite
[20:58] Speaker 2: impressed with that they had the brief of evidence and
[21:01] Speaker 2: when this is more serious than the charge that the
[21:03] Speaker 2: police have given him, we're going to upgrade them.
[21:05] Speaker 1: And the aggravation that he was in a position of power.
[21:09] Speaker 2: No, he actually performed oral sex on me. That was aggravated.
[21:13] Speaker 2: Ah okay, that was what is this feeling? I don't
[21:16] Speaker 2: know what it is like? This this is I couldn't
[21:19] Speaker 2: understand what it was. September twenty twenty five, I got
[21:24] Speaker 2: called by a female at the DPP and she said
[21:29] Speaker 2: he wants to do a plea bargain. I was expecting that, Yeah, yeah,
[21:33] Speaker 2: he wants to reduce. He wants to reduce the rape
[21:35] Speaker 2: charge an ill plead to the aggravated sexual assault. Her
[21:39] Speaker 2: response was, Caroline, we had got so much evidence, she said,
[21:44] Speaker 2: it's ultimately your decision. Again, beautiful, they put it in
[21:46] Speaker 2: my hands. But we've got enough evidence to take this
[21:48] Speaker 2: to trial. So that was September twenty twenty five. Yes, okay,
[21:53] Speaker 2: So we continued pleaded not guilty. Fast forward to March.
[21:57] Speaker 2: It was supposed to be the trial case number two,
[22:01] Speaker 2: so we didn't get heard. Just before that trial day,
[22:05] Speaker 2: on the ninth of March, I get another phone call
[22:08] Speaker 2: from a male prosecutor who had a very different demeanor
[22:13] Speaker 2: to the female in September. Caroline, we're now going to
[22:17] Speaker 2: be delayed another couple of months. Of course, they know
[22:19] Speaker 2: that I'm going, Oh, just want this over with. I
[22:22] Speaker 2: just want to move on. And he said, but there
[22:25] Speaker 2: is another option for you. I said, okay, what's that. Well,
[22:29] Speaker 2: we can reduce that to aggravated sexual assault. I said,
[22:32] Speaker 2: We've been here before. Why would I have waited another
[22:35] Speaker 2: six months to be in exactly the same position. Yeah,
[22:39] Speaker 2: But and he started to sell it to me that
[22:41] Speaker 2: it would be somehow easier.
[22:43] Speaker 1: Now.
[22:43] Speaker 2: I could understand that if that was a defense, but
[22:45] Speaker 2: I'm thinking you're on my side. And this is where
[22:47] Speaker 2: the normal silence felt like it was almost in some
[22:52] Speaker 2: way elevated the whole mission, because for me, the prosecutor
[22:57] Speaker 2: should have been we want to give you a voice.
[23:00] Speaker 2: I want to give you an opportunity. Yes, they want
[23:02] Speaker 2: to reduce a charge, but we believe that you can
[23:05] Speaker 2: do this. He did the opposite. It's going to be
[23:06] Speaker 2: easier for you. It means you don't have to be
[23:08] Speaker 2: re traumatized. So I just said, do you know who
[23:11] Speaker 2: I am? I said, have you listened to the call
[23:14] Speaker 2: that I made?
[23:14] Speaker 1: No?
[23:14] Speaker 2: I haven't. I said, well, if you listen to that,
[23:16] Speaker 2: you'd understand that I'm not an ordinary witness. Yes, I've
[23:19] Speaker 2: got police background. And he said, we're not used to
[23:22] Speaker 2: dealing with people like you. That comment, well, it also
[23:27] Speaker 2: broke my heart. I just thought, how many victims in
[23:30] Speaker 2: their most vulnerable state. They were abused in the vulnerable state,
[23:34] Speaker 2: and now they're highly vulnerable and they're pliable. We can
[23:38] Speaker 2: almost put it on a platter, silver platter, that this
[23:41] Speaker 2: is easier for you. No, wonder our conviction rates are
[23:45] Speaker 2: at less than ten percent. Yeah, because if someone in
[23:49] Speaker 2: who's on my side, who's with me, going I think
[23:53] Speaker 2: that this will be easy for you, most will go Okay,
[23:55] Speaker 2: then let's go down that route.
[23:58] Speaker 1: Well, you're expecting to be given the advice that you
[24:01] Speaker 1: can trust when you've put the metal before the courts.
[24:05] Speaker 1: You're the victim in this situation. You've got the prosecutor.
[24:08] Speaker 1: You think they're on your side. So if they're giving
[24:11] Speaker 1: advice and you don't know any different, you're likely to
[24:14] Speaker 1: take their advice.
[24:15] Speaker 2: Absolutely because you're thinking that they know better. So I
[24:18] Speaker 2: said to him, But a female said to me in September,
[24:22] Speaker 2: we're going to go all the way. So why I
[24:24] Speaker 2: just thought it was interesting, not that I'm saying that
[24:26] Speaker 2: because he was a male.
[24:28] Speaker 1: Well, I think it's interesting. You've got two people from
[24:31] Speaker 1: the same office with different opinions on the same set effects.
[24:35] Speaker 2: And obviously I was frustrated because it was dragging on. However,
[24:39] Speaker 2: I just wish that the DPP would have even if
[24:42] Speaker 2: it's not them directly saying it, the support service is
[24:46] Speaker 2: with the woman going we're breaking your silence. We've got
[24:49] Speaker 2: enough evidence we can take it to the end. Let's
[24:51] Speaker 2: give you support. If you are going to get retraumatized,
[24:54] Speaker 2: there's services out there that can help you. Not let's
[24:58] Speaker 2: just take the exit door because it's going to be
[24:59] Speaker 2: easy everyone. So I said, how's that going to benefit me?
[25:03] Speaker 2: He gets no jail time, he gets his freedom. Where's
[25:07] Speaker 2: my freedom? I'm carrying this for the rest of my life.
[25:10] Speaker 2: So why would I just lower the charge because it's
[25:13] Speaker 2: somehow easier on me. It's easier on him, not me.
[25:17] Speaker 1: You convinced the DPP that wanted to reduce the charges
[25:21] Speaker 1: for a lesser play to continue on for the trial.
[25:25] Speaker 1: What happened then?
[25:26] Speaker 2: So that was March and I was like, mistakes in
[25:29] Speaker 2: the ground. I'm going all the way and you know
[25:31] Speaker 2: this was a decision for both me and my boys.
[25:36] Speaker 1: Can I ask how old you boys were at the time?
[25:39] Speaker 2: So they would have been nine, thirteen, fifteen, and eighteen.
[25:46] Speaker 1: Okay, so they're dealing with a lot saying their mum
[25:49] Speaker 1: get through.
[25:50] Speaker 2: Yes, But I thought, it's how I navigated. So if
[25:54] Speaker 2: I'm not a victim and I show them that mum's
[25:56] Speaker 2: got this. Thinking about my mom my, mum relied on
[25:59] Speaker 2: me heavily emotionally that I had to be her backbone.
[26:03] Speaker 2: What if this is given to me that I can
[26:05] Speaker 2: show the boys that I don't need to rely on
[26:07] Speaker 2: you emotionally, you don't need to protect me. I've got this.
[26:10] Speaker 2: I can do this with you, but you don't have
[26:13] Speaker 2: to be the parent figure to me. And I also thought,
[26:17] Speaker 2: if I don't make this man accountable, what message does
[26:20] Speaker 2: that give to my four sons, is that, oh, well,
[26:24] Speaker 2: you can do bad things and we just stay silent.
[26:28] Speaker 1: It's a hard lesson for your kids, but a very
[26:30] Speaker 1: powerful lesson saying their mother go through this and understanding it.
[26:34] Speaker 2: So it was three way. It was to protect other
[26:38] Speaker 2: victims from it happening. I felt that was a duty
[26:40] Speaker 2: of care. It was for me to break my own silence,
[26:44] Speaker 2: and it was for my sons to know that if
[26:47] Speaker 2: you hurt someone, then you have to go through whatever
[26:51] Speaker 2: justice system puts you through and take accountability. So my
[26:54] Speaker 2: eldest son, when I first told him, his response was, Mom,
[26:59] Speaker 2: I feel to be a man right now. I hear
[27:02] Speaker 2: that it happens, but I never thought it had happened
[27:05] Speaker 2: to my own him because he's saying, this is not
[27:08] Speaker 2: what represents the male. So they were all beside me.
[27:12] Speaker 2: I didn't tell them all straight away. I kind of
[27:14] Speaker 2: took my time through the ages, and obviously the last
[27:18] Speaker 2: one I only told him just before because I thought
[27:20] Speaker 2: this is probably this is going to go public, and
[27:23] Speaker 2: I didn't want him to hear it somewhere or at
[27:25] Speaker 2: school in the small community. So from then on, the
[27:28] Speaker 2: trial was then set for May. We didn't know a
[27:32] Speaker 2: case number two. Again, I didn't realize this. It can
[27:36] Speaker 2: be between one and six cases and it just requires
[27:39] Speaker 2: one to just be you know, but.
[27:41] Speaker 1: They expect, they run the turn up and carry the
[27:44] Speaker 1: trauma and concern.
[27:46] Speaker 2: So you're waiting, You're going is it going ahead? Is
[27:48] Speaker 2: it not? And I was suffering. I have to say,
[27:50] Speaker 2: I was riddle with back pain. I wasn't eating, and
[27:54] Speaker 2: I was just trying to go, just get through this
[27:56] Speaker 2: while my whole body was clearly yeah it was. It
[28:00] Speaker 2: was feeling the effects. So May came, we were due
[28:04] Speaker 2: to go to trial on the Monday. But I still
[28:05] Speaker 2: had no idea in my heart. I'd always said he's
[28:09] Speaker 2: going to play guilty. The last minute, I think it
[28:12] Speaker 2: was let's just see whether they she'll go all the way.
[28:14] Speaker 2: Let's just see where they shall go through and it
[28:17] Speaker 2: is right. It's like a game of chess, and when
[28:20] Speaker 2: it gets to the real crooks of the time, just
[28:24] Speaker 2: before that's when the chips are down. She's strong enough
[28:27] Speaker 2: to go through with this. So the Thursday I went
[28:30] Speaker 2: into the DPP and we went through everything, and it's
[28:33] Speaker 2: more than just consent. They break it all down and
[28:35] Speaker 2: it's pretty hard to prove. I can see why our
[28:39] Speaker 2: conviction rates are so so low. I think for me,
[28:43] Speaker 2: because it was a professional in that space, that that
[28:46] Speaker 2: was definitely a breach that I felt compelled to follow
[28:51] Speaker 2: through with. Not that if it had been a date
[28:54] Speaker 2: or something it would have been any easy bit. He
[28:56] Speaker 2: had a duty of care. So the Thursday we went in,
[28:59] Speaker 2: we went through all the brief of evidence and we
[29:01] Speaker 2: were there for two or three hours, and that's when
[29:04] Speaker 2: it hit me. I'm like, am I really okay to
[29:07] Speaker 2: go through with this? He was giving me some questions
[29:09] Speaker 2: that might ask and I just saw.
[29:12] Speaker 1: Questions.
[29:15] Speaker 2: It was yeah, And again I'm like, you can be
[29:19] Speaker 2: strong and courageous, but nobody prepares you to go into
[29:22] Speaker 2: that witness box and face someone who's going to do
[29:25] Speaker 2: everything in his power to disprove you.
[29:28] Speaker 1: Well, to discredit you. He used the fence time, with
[29:31] Speaker 1: the coming, with every trick in the book to discredit
[29:35] Speaker 1: your version of events.
[29:37] Speaker 2: So, I mean all they had was the freeze response.
[29:42] Speaker 2: That's the only that the not saying no and stopping
[29:45] Speaker 2: it in the moment is all that they had on me.
[29:49] Speaker 2: So you know, I had all of the the biological
[29:53] Speaker 2: responses I knew if I had have been asked. I mean,
[29:55] Speaker 2: I actually said to them, do you have somebody on
[29:57] Speaker 2: nervous systems who comes in and gives evidence to say
[29:59] Speaker 2: that this is tonic immobility? This is They said, oh,
[30:03] Speaker 2: I know, we don't have. I'm like, oh my god,
[30:04] Speaker 2: the justice system is so far behind, and I think
[30:07] Speaker 2: it made me realize that I have to be my
[30:09] Speaker 2: own advocate. Yep. So I think I left the office.
[30:14] Speaker 2: It was two thirty and I said, it's got until
[30:16] Speaker 2: four o'clock today to change his plea.
[30:19] Speaker 1: Yeah, so this is.
[30:20] Speaker 2: And I said, if not, we definitely going ahead on
[30:22] Speaker 2: Monday because the case has now been thrown out. And
[30:27] Speaker 2: the prosecutor said, again, Caroline, I know you've been asked before,
[30:32] Speaker 2: but defense has wrung me. And they said, are you
[30:34] Speaker 2: prepared to lower that charge? And I thought, Holy Moley,
[30:41] Speaker 2: and you know what my mission is, honor her No,
[30:44] Speaker 2: It's on the back of my T shirt. I've said
[30:46] Speaker 2: no in September, I've said no in March, and here
[30:50] Speaker 2: we are four days before and you're asking me again.
[30:53] Speaker 2: I know it's your job, but honor my no. Like
[30:57] Speaker 2: even the prosecution and the defense are not listening to me.
[31:00] Speaker 2: He said he doesn't want to be known as a rapist.
[31:03] Speaker 2: Said oh, interesting one, maybe he should not go around
[31:06] Speaker 2: raping for people. Then, so he wanted that charge reduced,
[31:10] Speaker 2: which meant he wouldn't have got prison time.
[31:12] Speaker 1: And he wouldn't have had that, and the facts would
[31:16] Speaker 1: have been I would imagine with entering the play along
[31:19] Speaker 1: those lines. I'm only speculating here, but that would come
[31:21] Speaker 1: down to, oh, he just inappropriately touched you somewhere, and
[31:26] Speaker 1: the full criminality of what took place wouldn't have played
[31:30] Speaker 1: out in the greed said effects.
[31:32] Speaker 2: It wasn't just a slip of a hand, Garry, that's
[31:35] Speaker 2: the thing like his what he did with his mouth
[31:37] Speaker 2: was very it was I mean that probably disgusted me
[31:40] Speaker 2: and humiliated me more than anything. The most degrading, So
[31:45] Speaker 2: he couldn't have had a defense that I didn't touch.
[31:47] Speaker 2: I didn't stuff right, it was an intentional act. So
[31:51] Speaker 2: they asked me again and I said, I stood up
[31:54] Speaker 2: and I gesticulated in my hand and I said, my
[31:57] Speaker 2: steak is in the ground. I'm going to take this man, Dan,
[32:00] Speaker 2: I'm going to go all the way. And he said,
[32:02] Speaker 2: I knew you would, but I've just been asked to
[32:04] Speaker 2: ask you again. I walked through the door at three
[32:07] Speaker 2: thirty five pm on the Thursday. I got a call
[32:10] Speaker 2: five minutes later. He's changed his play. Wow, which is
[32:14] Speaker 2: kind of what I felt. So I just knew to
[32:17] Speaker 2: follow my own heart, advocate for myself, and that justice
[32:21] Speaker 2: would prevail him whatever way. And justice isn't custodial sentence
[32:26] Speaker 2: for everyone, you know, I wasn't. My recovery was not
[32:30] Speaker 2: determined by the sentence that he got, because, as we know,
[32:34] Speaker 2: the sentence never matches the crime. Mine was about getting
[32:38] Speaker 2: my voice back, standing with my stake and saying no,
[32:42] Speaker 2: this time, I'm not going to be swayed. Interestingly, when
[32:45] Speaker 2: I think about my father, buy another man telling me
[32:47] Speaker 2: that I need to go in a box and stay
[32:49] Speaker 2: quiet and make his life easier. I did that for
[32:52] Speaker 2: my dad and look where it got me.
[32:54] Speaker 1: Yeah, and this, well, you didn't do it this time.
[32:56] Speaker 2: I didn't do it this time.
[32:57] Speaker 1: He got to half years, was it?
[33:01] Speaker 2: So it got two and a half years for the rate, Yeah,
[33:03] Speaker 2: eighteen months for the aggravated sexual assault running concurrently.
[33:07] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[33:08] Speaker 2: And the argument was the amount of time it serves
[33:11] Speaker 2: in prison. What I didn't realize is they're actually look
[33:15] Speaker 2: at other cases that are similar. I wasn't aware of
[33:18] Speaker 2: this when it comes to sentencing, and.
[33:20] Speaker 1: That's a guideline for their sensing what the similar type
[33:24] Speaker 1: of defense with the same the criminality what that person got.
[33:27] Speaker 2: So that was the argument that they debated on for
[33:30] Speaker 2: what seemed like forever. But there wasn't a situation identical
[33:34] Speaker 2: to mine. It's like selling a house. I wonder what
[33:36] Speaker 2: my house is worth, where we'll look at all the
[33:38] Speaker 2: houses in the street. That house is not like my house.
[33:41] Speaker 2: So it wasn't a professional it wasn't in a room
[33:44] Speaker 2: where there was a duty of care. So it's like,
[33:47] Speaker 2: how can you compare my case to that case that
[33:50] Speaker 2: was more violent? So they negated it if that was
[33:53] Speaker 2: more violent, but yours was professional, the more like for
[33:56] Speaker 2: like For me, it seemed ludicrous fans wanted six months,
[34:01] Speaker 2: We wanted more. He got eight months.
[34:04] Speaker 1: Okay, Well from it's easy to say when you haven't
[34:09] Speaker 1: been the person that's the victim of the crime, but
[34:13] Speaker 1: you can't hold on to the sensing. I think that
[34:16] Speaker 1: can be damaging to people, and I've seen that obviously
[34:19] Speaker 1: with homicide, the sentencing that people get the families of
[34:23] Speaker 1: the victim who are always looking for what the sense.
[34:26] Speaker 1: But a lot of people say, look, that's not what
[34:28] Speaker 1: it's about. What it's about is that this person has
[34:31] Speaker 1: been made to be accountable. What length of time that
[34:34] Speaker 1: person spends in jail is not up to me. It's
[34:36] Speaker 1: up to the courts. But good on you for standing
[34:39] Speaker 1: your ground on that, because as a former cop, you
[34:43] Speaker 1: would have looked at all the possibilities of what could
[34:46] Speaker 1: have gone wrong there. And you know, we talked the
[34:48] Speaker 1: freeze response, and I want to break that down and
[34:51] Speaker 1: really explain that so people have an understanding of what
[34:53] Speaker 1: we're talking about there, because as we mentioned in part one,
[34:57] Speaker 1: and we've talked about it and alluded to the questions
[35:01] Speaker 1: that people would ask, why didn't you just say that,
[35:03] Speaker 1: why did you stay there when this occurred? Can you
[35:07] Speaker 1: explain it? In your words, and then let's give a
[35:10] Speaker 1: detailed explanation of what this freeze response we're referring to
[35:14] Speaker 1: is all about.
[35:15] Speaker 2: So it's a nervous system response. So you have fight,
[35:19] Speaker 2: flight freeze, and fawn. Fawn is like the people, please,
[35:23] Speaker 2: I just give in. I just don't speak up for myself.
[35:27] Speaker 2: Fight obviously speaks for itself. Flight run away freeze is
[35:31] Speaker 2: when fight and flight isn't available in that moment. It's
[35:35] Speaker 2: a survival response. You know, you could look upon YouTube
[35:39] Speaker 2: im parlor chase by a lion and you'll watch the
[35:43] Speaker 2: lion takes the imparlor down, and before it gets eaten,
[35:47] Speaker 2: the imparlor would start to play dead. It slows its
[35:50] Speaker 2: breathing to the point where its ribs are hardly moving,
[35:53] Speaker 2: its eyes are stared. So it's called tonic immobility. It's biology.
[35:57] Speaker 1: I actually watched the imparlor on YouTube researching for this
[36:02] Speaker 1: and seeing what happened. Then. I don't know how it
[36:04] Speaker 1: led me there, but it led me to the animal
[36:07] Speaker 1: being attacked than the phrase response.
[36:09] Speaker 2: So when you think about its intelligence, So if you
[36:12] Speaker 2: can watch a video and see what that imparlor did
[36:15] Speaker 2: and that one did escape, if you remember The difference
[36:18] Speaker 2: is when you go into freeze and you are almost
[36:21] Speaker 2: you're immobile, so you think about the body's response is
[36:26] Speaker 2: to survive, so it will shut everything down. So the
[36:30] Speaker 2: frontal lobal part of the brain goes offline, so thinking,
[36:35] Speaker 2: which is why often when police investigators actually to go
[36:39] Speaker 2: through your story, things might not add up and it
[36:42] Speaker 2: might not be a sequential story because this part's gone offline,
[36:46] Speaker 2: so everything slows down. It's about how do I just
[36:50] Speaker 2: stay alive? So if we're wired to survive, our body
[36:56] Speaker 2: gives us that response so that you can go, I
[36:58] Speaker 2: can just shut everything down in this moment and just
[37:01] Speaker 2: allow him to do by, you know, using that term,
[37:04] Speaker 2: because if I fight back, there's a possibility I could
[37:08] Speaker 2: be killed if the imparlor would have started trying to
[37:11] Speaker 2: run away, right, So we use that as the same analogy.
[37:14] Speaker 2: And do you think of domestic violence the most dangerous
[37:17] Speaker 2: time is when a woman tries to leave, So same
[37:21] Speaker 2: as me. What if I'd have bolted up right in
[37:23] Speaker 2: his room and said, what the hell are you doing?
[37:25] Speaker 2: You just did get me out of here. The body's
[37:28] Speaker 2: going I'm not even going to send you there, because
[37:31] Speaker 2: it's a possibility that you could get harmed, so we're
[37:33] Speaker 2: going to stay there. So when people understand, and it
[37:37] Speaker 2: can happen in conversation or in conflict, you might lose
[37:40] Speaker 2: your words or you might stand there and go, I
[37:42] Speaker 2: wonder why I can't say anything. So it's not just
[37:45] Speaker 2: in that situation, anytime when you're under threat, okay, but
[37:49] Speaker 2: the issue with that is yourself and the public go why.
[37:54] Speaker 1: Well, yeah, that's a question that I'm sure would have
[37:58] Speaker 1: gone through your mind if you went to in front
[38:00] Speaker 1: of a jury or that being prosecuted, people would be
[38:04] Speaker 1: asking that question. And unless we understand and I know
[38:07] Speaker 1: what you're talking about with the free his response, and
[38:10] Speaker 1: I have seen that in policing aspects, but that's not
[38:14] Speaker 1: widely known. It's not widely people don't sort of accept it.
[38:18] Speaker 1: Then that change is the narrative when the police take
[38:21] Speaker 1: the first response, and then that goes through the courts.
[38:24] Speaker 2: And I wonder if we could educate and change so
[38:28] Speaker 2: people ask questions from logic. Oh, these are some of
[38:32] Speaker 2: the questions. I got asked, Well, you weren't blooded, you
[38:36] Speaker 2: weren't bruised, you weren't fighting. Why don't you just enjoy it?
[38:40] Speaker 2: It's like, are you kidding me. Yeah, that's men saying
[38:43] Speaker 2: why didn't you poke him in the eye? Now that
[38:46] Speaker 2: seems a logical question. Remember, the frontal lobal part of
[38:50] Speaker 2: the brain is shut down. That's where our logic and
[38:53] Speaker 2: reasoning lifts. So you're not talking logic, you're talking survival.
[38:58] Speaker 2: But there's no education in schools in relationships about what
[39:01] Speaker 2: does that look like and when we can start to
[39:03] Speaker 2: change the narrative rather than saying why didn't you do that?
[39:07] Speaker 2: Versus your body did everything it needed to do to
[39:10] Speaker 2: get you through. And honestly, Garret, it's the only way
[39:12] Speaker 2: that I got rid of the shame. It's almost like
[39:15] Speaker 2: a coach myself through it. You know, in psychology there's
[39:19] Speaker 2: theory called assault therough and you'll sit something in a
[39:21] Speaker 2: chair and you'll have a conversation with it. I did
[39:24] Speaker 2: that with shame. I'm like, what the heck are you
[39:26] Speaker 2: here to teach me? And I had to unpack this
[39:29] Speaker 2: and when I looked at my body actually kept me alive,
[39:32] Speaker 2: I started to, rather than hate it, go wow, you
[39:36] Speaker 2: did automatically what you needed to do to get me
[39:39] Speaker 2: out of that room without being harmed. Thank you?
[39:43] Speaker 1: Were you trying to process what happened to you after
[39:47] Speaker 1: you're very aware of the phreeze response. Now, did you
[39:51] Speaker 1: have to educate yourself or learn what happened there were
[39:55] Speaker 1: Did you walk over there and just so confused by
[39:58] Speaker 1: the whole whole thing? When did you become aware of
[40:00] Speaker 1: the phrase response and the in depth understanding that you
[40:03] Speaker 1: have of it there?
[40:05] Speaker 2: So I knew about it, so it studied it because
[40:07] Speaker 2: I've worked in trauma for a while. At the time,
[40:10] Speaker 2: I was in a year long container with Gabon Marte,
[40:15] Speaker 2: who is my idol. I love that man, So I
[40:18] Speaker 2: was already I've been studying for six months all about
[40:21] Speaker 2: somatic work. So again, it's interesting it happened to me
[40:25] Speaker 2: while I was in that container learning about nervous systems.
[40:29] Speaker 1: When you say in that container.
[40:30] Speaker 2: As in online or learning training under his compassionate and I'm.
[40:35] Speaker 1: Just picturing you sitting in the container. But that kay,
[40:38] Speaker 1: we've clarified that. I understand.
[40:40] Speaker 2: No, that'd be quite nice in the container, Gabon mate.
[40:44] Speaker 2: So I knew about the phrase response, but it's very
[40:47] Speaker 2: different reading it and understanding it intellectually and embodying it.
[40:53] Speaker 2: So it's like I when I went through that, I
[40:56] Speaker 2: was like, oh, now I get it, because everything slowed
[41:00] Speaker 2: down in slow motion. Remember I said I was screaming
[41:02] Speaker 2: from the inside, but nothing came out. And I'm going
[41:05] Speaker 2: to take this one step further because you've got the biology,
[41:08] Speaker 2: which we understand is survival regardless, it's wired into us. However,
[41:15] Speaker 2: let's take me back to childhood. A question I needed
[41:18] Speaker 2: to ask myself was because I knew inside of me,
[41:20] Speaker 2: the part of me that was screaming was not my
[41:23] Speaker 2: fifty one year old self. It was ancient, she was little.
[41:28] Speaker 2: Even the panic in the voice, it wasn't me. So
[41:31] Speaker 2: I had to say, where did someone teach me to
[41:35] Speaker 2: stay quiet when I've been harmed abused? And then it
[41:41] Speaker 2: opened up a Pandora's box to the four year old
[41:44] Speaker 2: part of me that had been woken up in the night.
[41:48] Speaker 2: So let's just put the two traumas together. In my
[41:52] Speaker 2: childhood bed in the night, in the dark, woken up
[41:55] Speaker 2: on a massage table, eyes closed in the dark. Yeah,
[42:00] Speaker 2: so what he did in that room literally re enacted
[42:05] Speaker 2: the very first time I was abused as a child.
[42:07] Speaker 2: So it was literally that almost like a cab and
[42:10] Speaker 2: copy experience. So, yes, biology puts you into freeze when
[42:15] Speaker 2: fight and flight isn't available. However, what if you've already
[42:18] Speaker 2: been trained as a little girl, that you have screamed
[42:22] Speaker 2: saved for the first time, and someone's covered up your
[42:26] Speaker 2: nose or someone's so two things I think were going
[42:30] Speaker 2: on for me. I've been here before, a long time ago.
[42:35] Speaker 2: That feels so true. I feel that sadness in my
[42:37] Speaker 2: heart when I say this four year old has been
[42:41] Speaker 2: suppressed a whole life, and now she's been put in
[42:44] Speaker 2: a room with an opportunity to rewrite the story.
[42:49] Speaker 1: The trauma, that what happened to you later in life
[42:53] Speaker 1: as a fifty one year old. Did that open the
[42:55] Speaker 1: trauma the memories of what happened to you as a
[42:58] Speaker 1: four year old.
[43:00] Speaker 2: I was inquisitive. I'm like, if I was screaming and
[43:03] Speaker 2: nothing was coming out, that's obviously something that I've done
[43:09] Speaker 2: many times over, because I mean, you screaming. You know,
[43:12] Speaker 2: if you're under threat or in danger, you would scream.
[43:15] Speaker 2: The only time you would not scream is if something's
[43:17] Speaker 2: happened to force you to stay quiet. There's you know,
[43:22] Speaker 2: the danger gets worse, it escalates, so it did. So
[43:26] Speaker 2: imagine now I'm in the middle, and I'm now wedged
[43:30] Speaker 2: in a sandwich between two traumas, the current one with
[43:33] Speaker 2: the massage therapist yep, and the four year old, and
[43:36] Speaker 2: I'm like, like that would have been enough to tip
[43:39] Speaker 2: me over the age, Like where do I even begin?
[43:43] Speaker 2: Do I deal with this one? Do I deal with
[43:45] Speaker 2: this one? And how dealing with them is gonna How
[43:50] Speaker 2: is it going to get me through the court case?
[43:51] Speaker 2: Because if I go deep diving into my trauma, will
[43:54] Speaker 2: I be then, you know, just courageous and strong enough
[43:58] Speaker 2: to be able to get through the court case. So
[44:00] Speaker 2: it was like a bit of a balancing act. I
[44:03] Speaker 2: want to understand because this is a healing, but I
[44:06] Speaker 2: don't want it to derail me so that I'm not
[44:09] Speaker 2: prepared then to go through that. But it was necessary.
[44:14] Speaker 2: It was that revealed that and if I didn't deal
[44:18] Speaker 2: with that, there's no way I could have healed that.
[44:20] Speaker 1: If you imagine the two do you have specific memories
[44:23] Speaker 1: of what happened to you as a four year old
[44:25] Speaker 1: and the person responsible for him.
[44:29] Speaker 2: I did a lot of healing around it. And what
[44:32] Speaker 2: happens with the mind is when something is so devastating, shocking,
[44:38] Speaker 2: the trauma is so bad, the mind tries to forget,
[44:41] Speaker 2: but the body remembers. So if you notice throughout this interview,
[44:44] Speaker 2: I've gone, oh, I feel that in my body. I
[44:46] Speaker 2: feel that in my heart. So the body gives us
[44:48] Speaker 2: a signal, and then the mind tries to understand it.
[44:51] Speaker 2: I wonder why that signal's gone off, right, So it
[44:56] Speaker 2: stays in our body. You've probably heard of the book
[44:58] Speaker 2: called The Body Keeps the Score. Yeah, so everything is
[45:02] Speaker 2: stored in here. But a lot of very traumatized children
[45:06] Speaker 2: will say as adults, I don't remember my childhood. Your
[45:10] Speaker 2: body does. I just haven't recalled it up here first,
[45:13] Speaker 2: so I know that I was woken up in the night. Now.
[45:18] Speaker 2: I used to say, oh my goodness, I am such
[45:21] Speaker 2: a light sleeper. I didn't know why until I did
[45:25] Speaker 2: this investigation, because I'm like, I'm only a light sleeper
[45:30] Speaker 2: because someone's come and invaded my sleep and I need
[45:34] Speaker 2: to be on high alerts. Of course, when the babies
[45:36] Speaker 2: were little, it was great because any sound I woke up.
[45:41] Speaker 2: But imagine living a life where you've probably never had
[45:43] Speaker 2: a full sleep because she's literally waiting in anticipation that
[45:47] Speaker 2: that door might open and someone might come in and
[45:49] Speaker 2: harm me. That's exactly what the massage therapis did. I
[45:53] Speaker 2: went into a room and needed exactly to me, So
[45:56] Speaker 2: it was a family member. It was extremely confront and
[46:00] Speaker 2: then you have to go back and go, was my
[46:02] Speaker 2: whole childhood just a lie? The memory that I have
[46:05] Speaker 2: of childhood. So it's almost like you're wiping the slate
[46:09] Speaker 2: clean and questioning everything everything, No wonder, I was petrified
[46:14] Speaker 2: of that person, No wonder. I used to shrink around them.
[46:19] Speaker 2: So in some sense it allowed everything to make sense,
[46:23] Speaker 2: But in another sense, it was absolutely devastating to imagine
[46:27] Speaker 2: what that little girl went through went through. But then
[46:32] Speaker 2: you can only turn it into a positive and go.
[46:34] Speaker 2: That's why I was an amazing police officer. That's why
[46:37] Speaker 2: I you know, I'm really good with clients now because
[46:40] Speaker 2: I've been so curious with myself and unpacked and investigated
[46:46] Speaker 2: that I can now pass on that wisdom and help
[46:48] Speaker 2: other people. And the question, the question I needed to
[46:53] Speaker 2: ask was where did all this begin? Because it did
[46:55] Speaker 2: not begin in that massage room. So I call it
[46:57] Speaker 2: the crime before the crime. That was a crime, it
[47:01] Speaker 2: raped me, But where was the first crime that led
[47:04] Speaker 2: me to that? And that was the childhood? So unless
[47:06] Speaker 2: you look at the crime before the crime, which was
[47:09] Speaker 2: who primed me to react, play dead, to stay still,
[47:14] Speaker 2: not move a muscle.
[47:15] Speaker 1: Yeah, a lot of unpecking to do, isn't it. I
[47:19] Speaker 1: think full credit to you that you can talk about
[47:22] Speaker 1: this and educate people and come through what you've been
[47:26] Speaker 1: through and still have a positive, positive outlook. Purpose. Let's hypothetically,
[47:33] Speaker 1: if you didn't make this complaint, how do you think
[47:36] Speaker 1: you would deal with it now?
[47:38] Speaker 2: I felt like what happened to me was allowing me
[47:43] Speaker 2: to birth this mission. So it was all part of it.
[47:47] Speaker 2: And I think the freedom I got from then speaking
[47:51] Speaker 2: that was my healing. So what if I couldn't speak now,
[47:54] Speaker 2: if I wouldn't have gone down the justice path, would
[47:58] Speaker 2: have I still been able to tell my possibly, but
[48:01] Speaker 2: not in the rawness and the truth of what this
[48:04] Speaker 2: story is now presented. But I think what's missing along
[48:09] Speaker 2: the way is, and you talked into this earlier when
[48:11] Speaker 2: we talked about justice, I had to be really honest
[48:14] Speaker 2: with myself. If I get so attached to the outcome,
[48:17] Speaker 2: I'm then relying on that to determine how I heal,
[48:22] Speaker 2: which is giving away my power. He's already taken my power,
[48:26] Speaker 2: you know, to get that back. It was who do
[48:28] Speaker 2: I want to be at the end of this carry
[48:31] Speaker 2: Who's the woman I want to be? Well, she wants
[48:33] Speaker 2: to make sure that she never gets silenced again. Her
[48:36] Speaker 2: voice matters, and I'm a beautiful role model to my sons,
[48:40] Speaker 2: to the community. So I almost had to pack that. Yes,
[48:44] Speaker 2: I felt for his you know, for him to take
[48:47] Speaker 2: full accountability whether they did or not. Personally, he needed
[48:51] Speaker 2: to go to prison. I felt that deeply, and I
[48:53] Speaker 2: believed he would, But I wasn't attached to the outcome.
[48:57] Speaker 2: It was who's the woman that I'm walking to a
[49:00] Speaker 2: at the end of this eighteen month journey. It's her.
[49:03] Speaker 2: He's there and I'm focusing on her.
[49:06] Speaker 1: Well, I think by having that mindset is a much
[49:09] Speaker 1: more positive way of approaching it than if you like anger, revenge,
[49:16] Speaker 1: a whole range of emotions that could come from being
[49:19] Speaker 1: a victim of a perpetrator like that, but that will
[49:22] Speaker 1: destroy you. And I've seen that happen to victims of crime,
[49:27] Speaker 1: where that they're being destroyed not once but twice because
[49:30] Speaker 1: they're hanging on to that anger. But you seem to
[49:33] Speaker 1: have found the way through it.
[49:35] Speaker 2: Well. I also feel like if I have got anger
[49:37] Speaker 2: and resentment I'm harboring towards him. He still then got
[49:40] Speaker 2: some controls control.
[49:42] Speaker 1: You know, we had Amanda Knocks on the podcast and
[49:47] Speaker 1: she talked about forgiveness and kindness, and she said, the
[49:51] Speaker 1: one thing I could do in the horrible situation I
[49:54] Speaker 1: was in, the one thing that no one could control
[49:56] Speaker 1: was kindness. Now I'm not suggesting this for your situation,
[50:00] Speaker 1: but I thought that was a really powerful way of
[50:02] Speaker 1: describing how you can control your thoughts, your directions, and
[50:07] Speaker 1: your emotions. And she said, well, they can put me
[50:10] Speaker 1: in jail for a crime I didn't commit. They can
[50:12] Speaker 1: do this to me, they can do that to me,
[50:14] Speaker 1: but they can't take away my kindness. So I'm just
[50:16] Speaker 1: going to be kind. And that really resonated with me.
[50:18] Speaker 1: I thought it was a very powerful way absolutely taking
[50:21] Speaker 1: control of a situation.
[50:23] Speaker 2: And with bitterness and resentment, it's like saying, I'm going
[50:26] Speaker 2: to give you a pill of poison, you know, and
[50:30] Speaker 2: expect you but I'm swallowing that pill of poison every
[50:32] Speaker 2: single day, expecting you to be affected. Now, I couldn't
[50:36] Speaker 2: control how he showed up in the world, and that's
[50:39] Speaker 2: not anything to do with me. That's his journey, his trajectory.
[50:43] Speaker 2: So for me and forgiveness is a really great topic
[50:48] Speaker 2: to speak about because people say, oh, you can't move
[50:50] Speaker 2: on unless you're forgiven. Forgiveness for me was forgiving that
[50:54] Speaker 2: little girl who believed that she couldn't speak, forgiving the
[50:58] Speaker 2: part of me that went into that room and believed
[51:00] Speaker 2: that the only way out was to go limp, because
[51:04] Speaker 2: that's the part of me that needed to heal. So
[51:06] Speaker 2: I forgived her. I forgive the part of me that
[51:10] Speaker 2: thought it was my fault. So forgiveness for me is
[51:14] Speaker 2: every single version of me. It's actually got nothing to
[51:17] Speaker 2: do with him.
[51:17] Speaker 1: Yeah, we talked of Cameron who wanting to raise it
[51:22] Speaker 1: about just because no it's not said, that doesn't mean consent.
[51:26] Speaker 1: Do you want to talk us through that.
[51:28] Speaker 2: I think the whole consent culture needs to be overhauled.
[51:31] Speaker 2: So the reason I talk about honor her no is
[51:34] Speaker 2: in the absence of a no, meaning she may be
[51:38] Speaker 2: under the influence of alcohol, she may be feeling threatened,
[51:41] Speaker 2: coherst all of those things that suppress her ability to
[51:45] Speaker 2: say yes. So in the absence of a no, it
[51:49] Speaker 2: doesn't mean it's a yes. And I think this is
[51:51] Speaker 2: a really great education tool for boys and girls to understand, Hi,
[51:58] Speaker 2: I've got a right to say no, can be revoked
[52:00] Speaker 2: at any time. I can be with a man in
[52:03] Speaker 2: a situation say yes at the beginning, but halfway through
[52:07] Speaker 2: this doesn't feel safe for me, and I can speak
[52:10] Speaker 2: up anytime. So if someone I think, with my court case,
[52:14] Speaker 2: I wanted the justice system to understand that just because
[52:17] Speaker 2: I was too afraid to say no, it doesn't mean
[52:20] Speaker 2: that I was a willing party. I wasn't willing. I
[52:24] Speaker 2: mean straight away, there's an imbalance of power if we're
[52:26] Speaker 2: to use my example, So the consensual act together has
[52:30] Speaker 2: to be something that's enthusiastic, and people say, well, what
[52:33] Speaker 2: does that mean? Well, we have to read body language.
[52:36] Speaker 2: Someone's going, yeah, that's okay. I mean, you know straight
[52:39] Speaker 2: away you can see that she's GrITT in her teeth
[52:42] Speaker 2: and she's and it's asking her like, what's happening for
[52:44] Speaker 2: you right now? Well, I actually feel scared. I mean
[52:47] Speaker 2: when you think about every single woman knows another woman
[52:50] Speaker 2: who's been sexually abused or assaulted, So you've got a
[52:52] Speaker 2: walking population of women who traumatized. It's going to be
[52:57] Speaker 2: really traumatized in an Internet environment. So we want to
[53:00] Speaker 2: equip ourselves to say, if she's had an experience in
[53:04] Speaker 2: the past where she's been violated, how can I create
[53:07] Speaker 2: safety for her, which is, how do you let me
[53:10] Speaker 2: know you're not okay? She might say, well, I actually
[53:13] Speaker 2: struggle to say anything, so I'm just going to tap you, yeah,
[53:16] Speaker 2: on the arm. I mean it seems like it's back
[53:19] Speaker 2: in primary school. But you know, I think men have
[53:23] Speaker 2: to understand that the absence of this no women often
[53:26] Speaker 2: like me, who've maybe been silenced, it gets trapped. Yeah,
[53:30] Speaker 2: and we pretend that we're okay because centuries ago, women
[53:34] Speaker 2: and it still happens in this many cultures are there
[53:37] Speaker 2: to serve her man as long as he's happy.
[53:39] Speaker 1: Well, we're talking off camera marriages and yeah, what we
[53:44] Speaker 1: signed in the ninety three.
[53:46] Speaker 2: Yes, I'm saying in nineteen ninety three in Michigan, in
[53:48] Speaker 2: the USA, marital rape was still accepted nineteen ninety three.
[53:54] Speaker 2: I mean, you're talking that's only thirty three years ago.
[53:57] Speaker 2: So I think this is so much more complex, and
[54:00] Speaker 2: we're actually breaking down a culture of the role that
[54:04] Speaker 2: women were here to play. Go back centuries. She serves
[54:09] Speaker 2: as a husband. You know, women were objectified. They never
[54:12] Speaker 2: had a voice, We never had voices, we were suppressed.
[54:15] Speaker 2: So it's almost like we're now retrieving the very thing
[54:18] Speaker 2: that was taken from us. You know, you're my property.
[54:22] Speaker 2: I'm married to you. Of course, when I want sex
[54:25] Speaker 2: on I click my fingers, you provide. So women are
[54:28] Speaker 2: now waking up going, oh, I have a choice, and
[54:32] Speaker 2: I'm serious and I say that they literally I can
[54:35] Speaker 2: say no. I mean, how sad.
[54:37] Speaker 1: That is very sad. And I think, you know, on
[54:40] Speaker 1: the issue of consent, and I look at it the
[54:43] Speaker 1: complication of it, it doesn't have to be that complicated.
[54:46] Speaker 1: As you said that it's fairly obvious. If someone's not
[54:50] Speaker 1: hasn't said no, it doesn't mean they're participating in sexual
[54:54] Speaker 1: activity that's been played out, and I think common sense
[55:00] Speaker 1: had come into play. Common sense is not that common
[55:02] Speaker 1: these days, unfortunately, but education and make sure that in
[55:08] Speaker 1: whatever situation you're in, from a man's point of view,
[55:12] Speaker 1: the woman should feel safe and vice versa. You know,
[55:16] Speaker 1: there's a changing world vice versa that just you need
[55:19] Speaker 1: the other person that feels safe in that environment.
[55:22] Speaker 2: But you imagine what if the man will use them
[55:25] Speaker 2: as examples, well, say, you know it works both ways.
[55:28] Speaker 2: Has grown up in a home where his mother tried
[55:31] Speaker 2: to say no. Like me, her no was never a possibility.
[55:36] Speaker 2: So you've got the girl who's seen that knows not
[55:39] Speaker 2: an option. He's seen his father override his mom's no.
[55:44] Speaker 2: So we talked about culture generational trauma. We're talking about,
[55:48] Speaker 2: you know, rewriting.
[55:51] Speaker 1: You're just creating an image of my head of someone
[55:53] Speaker 1: coming home drunk and wanting to get with the wife,
[55:58] Speaker 1: and the wife saying no. Young children sitting there saying
[56:01] Speaker 1: what's gone on? And the wife submits because to keep
[56:04] Speaker 1: placing the house.
[56:05] Speaker 2: Yeah, keep the peace exactly, because that's what we were
[56:08] Speaker 2: trained to do. You just hit you just keep the peace.
[56:10] Speaker 2: So let's give him what he needs to get him
[56:14] Speaker 2: off my back, to quieten him down. But what's the cost.
[56:17] Speaker 2: The cost is a woman is self betraying herself over
[56:21] Speaker 2: and over and over and abandoning that part that says
[56:24] Speaker 2: I don't want to do this, yeah, to serve him.
[56:27] Speaker 2: But the after effect of that is I constantly let
[56:32] Speaker 2: myself down.
[56:33] Speaker 1: I have to submit and not be true to myself.
[56:35] Speaker 2: Yeah, And it's like it's okay to say I actually
[56:38] Speaker 2: don't feel like it, And for the man to say,
[56:40] Speaker 2: you know what, I honor that. What's going on for you?
[56:43] Speaker 2: What do you need? Do you need a cup of tea?
[56:44] Speaker 2: Let me show you in because you know a lot
[56:47] Speaker 2: of women want to be intimate in different ways. Intimacy is,
[56:51] Speaker 2: you know, let's put a movie on, let's hold hands,
[56:54] Speaker 2: let's I'll cook you a beautiful meal. That's okay, not
[56:58] Speaker 2: just I want my needs to be served and this
[56:59] Speaker 2: is the only way.
[57:00] Speaker 1: Well, I think with the complications of all intimacy and sex,
[57:05] Speaker 1: it's about there shouldn't be an imbalance anyway, it should
[57:08] Speaker 1: it should be equal. I think that's a way to
[57:12] Speaker 1: address the concerns with your advocacy work. Talk us through
[57:18] Speaker 1: that and what you're doing and the messaging that you're
[57:21] Speaker 1: trying to get across and where people can reach out
[57:24] Speaker 1: to you.
[57:24] Speaker 2: Sure, so the normal silence is obviously born from that
[57:28] Speaker 2: experience in the massage room, but I've been working with
[57:30] Speaker 2: a lot of women in domestic violence and sexual assault prior.
[57:34] Speaker 2: But then I realized that what prevented me in that
[57:37] Speaker 2: moment from stepping forward was the silence. So what if
[57:41] Speaker 2: we started to break our silence And I'm not talking
[57:44] Speaker 2: about everyone just gathering at a police station. And that's
[57:48] Speaker 2: not the path for everyone. But the first step to
[57:52] Speaker 2: healing is actually voice in what happened. So remember I
[57:54] Speaker 2: said it has to come out of the body by
[57:57] Speaker 2: naming it. So I started to one the cockcase was
[58:01] Speaker 2: finished and I could talk about it. So I've been
[58:03] Speaker 2: creating a platform on Facebook, just building a community of
[58:07] Speaker 2: people who have sat for decades and possibly not spoken up.
[58:13] Speaker 2: So when I've got about, you know, twenty thousand people
[58:16] Speaker 2: from all around the world who are same, finally someone,
[58:21] Speaker 2: because I believe if one person goes first, the other
[58:25] Speaker 2: person has permission to go next. And it becomes almost
[58:29] Speaker 2: like this is the ripple effect right now. So then
[58:32] Speaker 2: I speak up and I say, you know, I guess
[58:34] Speaker 2: that's how the Me Too movement began. It happened to me.
[58:38] Speaker 2: And someone goes, oh my goodness, it happened to me.
[58:40] Speaker 2: And let me tell you, every woman you speak to
[58:43] Speaker 2: other's experienced it or know someone, and they're just wanting
[58:46] Speaker 2: to talk about it. So I created this Facebook group
[58:50] Speaker 2: and then I noticed the pushback from people, which I
[58:56] Speaker 2: think is really important to talk about is how we
[58:59] Speaker 2: then vilify the victim. And I think after the court case.
[59:02] Speaker 2: What I wasn't prepared for was the victim shaming.
[59:05] Speaker 1: Did the experience that did you?
[59:08] Speaker 2: So his father straight after the court, Channel seven were
[59:12] Speaker 2: there they asked him, what do you think, mister Petrie,
[59:15] Speaker 2: and he said, there's two sides to a coin. And
[59:18] Speaker 2: that actually made me feel pretty sad in the sense
[59:20] Speaker 2: that if that's the narrative of the family, he's admitted
[59:23] Speaker 2: it to me, at what point does it become he
[59:25] Speaker 2: did this? And then I realized this is the you know,
[59:29] Speaker 2: the Afl family were the same in Melbourne when there
[59:32] Speaker 2: was that rape, and you know they closed ranks, and
[59:35] Speaker 2: you know, surely there must be two sides. And I thought,
[59:38] Speaker 2: that makes me feel so devastated for the victim because
[59:41] Speaker 2: you've gone through all of this to go out the
[59:43] Speaker 2: other side and still not being believed. So I was
[59:46] Speaker 2: kind of gathering all this is information to look at. Okay,
[59:50] Speaker 2: if this is what we face, where do we need
[59:52] Speaker 2: to change the mentality and the culture from a victim perspective?
[59:57] Speaker 2: So I put a post out on my group and
[59:59] Speaker 2: it was finished this sentence, what did you expect when?
[1:00:03] Speaker 2: And oh my goodness, there was like almost two thousand
[1:00:05] Speaker 2: people wrote their story and I was sort of reading
[1:00:11] Speaker 2: through them, from what did I expect as a seven
[1:00:13] Speaker 2: month old on a changing table, to everybody's story and
[1:00:18] Speaker 2: to seventy year old women, and I thought there's something
[1:00:21] Speaker 2: in this. Look at these women who were trust in
[1:00:23] Speaker 2: this space to come forward. And one woman said, I've
[1:00:26] Speaker 2: hovered over the send button for twenty minutes. I've never
[1:00:30] Speaker 2: spoken this out loud ever powerful. So I realized this
[1:00:34] Speaker 2: is a movement. And rather than what did she expect?
[1:00:39] Speaker 2: What were you wearing? What did you let's switch that around.
[1:00:43] Speaker 2: What were you doing? Why did you do that? So
[1:00:46] Speaker 2: the movement is that it's breaking the silence, it's breaking
[1:00:50] Speaker 2: the generational trauma. It's listening to a victim without interrogating her.
[1:00:55] Speaker 2: She's not the criminal.
[1:00:57] Speaker 1: That's important.
[1:00:58] Speaker 2: Yeah when she Freeze has been educated enough to say,
[1:01:02] Speaker 2: even if she doesn't understand what her body did, oh
[1:01:05] Speaker 2: I've read about that.
[1:01:06] Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I think that's why it's so good to
[1:01:09] Speaker 1: talk about what you experienced. That give other people understanding
[1:01:15] Speaker 1: of that might have been through similar situations.
[1:01:18] Speaker 2: And then if you should imagine the video that you
[1:01:20] Speaker 2: and I've watched, Oh you don't understand, Freeze, I'm going
[1:01:22] Speaker 2: to show you a three minute video on YouTube, that's
[1:01:25] Speaker 2: what your body did, and then she can go, oh,
[1:01:29] Speaker 2: this exists, and then you go to the police station.
[1:01:32] Speaker 2: I think if they had literature to hand out to say,
[1:01:35] Speaker 2: that's the freeze response, that's what your body did. It's
[1:01:38] Speaker 2: not your fault. Yeah, your body saved you.
[1:01:41] Speaker 1: Well, I think from an investigator's point of view, it
[1:01:44] Speaker 1: would be handy to have that sort of knowledge when
[1:01:47] Speaker 1: you're sitting down getting statements from victims as well, have
[1:01:50] Speaker 1: an appreciation of the possibilities.
[1:01:53] Speaker 2: Because she wouldn't even know, and the courage to step
[1:01:56] Speaker 2: through the door. And then if she can get some
[1:01:58] Speaker 2: understanding around and why her body did what it did,
[1:02:02] Speaker 2: and then the courts understand this too. Might not happen
[1:02:05] Speaker 2: in every case, but we can now start to understand
[1:02:08] Speaker 2: a woman's body. And then if she can ask herself
[1:02:11] Speaker 2: the same question I asked, where did all this begin?
[1:02:14] Speaker 2: Was it just there? Or was it a long time ago?
[1:02:17] Speaker 2: And then we can start to look at our childhood
[1:02:18] Speaker 2: trauma and start to unpack that, which means that now
[1:02:22] Speaker 2: I've got my voice. Let me tell you, there'll be
[1:02:25] Speaker 2: no way I would ever be in a situation where
[1:02:28] Speaker 2: my voice would be silent ever again, because I've broken it,
[1:02:31] Speaker 2: and that's what we want people to do. Once you
[1:02:33] Speaker 2: get your voice, it never goes back down through the
[1:02:36] Speaker 2: trap door.
[1:02:36] Speaker 1: I can tell you now, I don't think we're going
[1:02:39] Speaker 1: to make you not comment. I'm breaking the good girl code.
[1:02:45] Speaker 1: How does that fit into the whole?
[1:02:48] Speaker 2: Say so, I was already writing a book from about
[1:02:52] Speaker 2: my past about how we're conditioned as children, and then
[1:02:56] Speaker 2: when this happened, I realized I was coded and I'll
[1:03:00] Speaker 2: explain that, and meaning I was coded to stay quiet,
[1:03:03] Speaker 2: to be passive, to be pleasing, to not upset anyone.
[1:03:08] Speaker 2: So I realized that we're actually all coded every single
[1:03:12] Speaker 2: day in any experience, we'll live in a card into
[1:03:15] Speaker 2: a code, right, you know, it might be you know,
[1:03:18] Speaker 2: be the good father and you know, stay small, be quiet.
[1:03:23] Speaker 2: So if we start to unpack our our codes and
[1:03:26] Speaker 2: break the good girl code, I think we'll see red
[1:03:29] Speaker 2: flags in relationships, more will spot cohesive control because it's
[1:03:34] Speaker 2: basically decoding the codes that we were imprinted with by
[1:03:39] Speaker 2: my father.
[1:03:40] Speaker 1: Remember, it's all I see what you're saying, the nineteen
[1:03:43] Speaker 1: fifties housewife attitude that well, it's a man of the
[1:03:47] Speaker 1: house I'll do what I'm told and I'll be a
[1:03:50] Speaker 1: good girl. And that sounds condescending and saying the words,
[1:03:54] Speaker 1: but that type of narrative, that's what you're trying to break. That. No,
[1:03:57] Speaker 1: you've got a voice, stand up, talk, stand up for yourself.
[1:04:01] Speaker 2: And if I hadn't been taught to be submissive to
[1:04:04] Speaker 2: the man like my mother was, I will probably never
[1:04:08] Speaker 2: ended up in that massage room. It led me there
[1:04:10] Speaker 2: because I needed to break the code, so I could
[1:04:14] Speaker 2: list probably a four sheets of coding. So let's look
[1:04:18] Speaker 2: at the code in particularly with young girls, and boys
[1:04:22] Speaker 2: have their own too. You know, the boys don't cry,
[1:04:24] Speaker 2: gals girls don't get angry. So if we can actually
[1:04:27] Speaker 2: get the codes out of the vault, break them down,
[1:04:30] Speaker 2: recode ourselves with it's safe to speak. I'm not going
[1:04:34] Speaker 2: to get thrown against a wall by my dad, So
[1:04:38] Speaker 2: it's safe to have a voice, which is where I
[1:04:39] Speaker 2: am now. It's safe to be in a room because
[1:04:42] Speaker 2: I can protect myself. I'm not four years old anymore.
[1:04:46] Speaker 2: And when I took that little girl, when I looked
[1:04:48] Speaker 2: around the court before the trial, I thought, I just
[1:04:50] Speaker 2: want to go and familiarize myself. I was shaking so violently,
[1:04:56] Speaker 2: and I stopped for a moment and I breathed, and
[1:04:58] Speaker 2: I said, how old am I right now? And this
[1:05:00] Speaker 2: voice said four? And I went ah, And I got
[1:05:02] Speaker 2: her by the hand and I said to her, darling,
[1:05:06] Speaker 2: you're not facing your father. That was the key moment
[1:05:10] Speaker 2: because she goes back to, oh, well, if I speak
[1:05:13] Speaker 2: up to my dad, I get hurt. She sees the
[1:05:16] Speaker 2: massage therapist as her father representation. So the healing was
[1:05:21] Speaker 2: taking her by the hand. I've got you. I'm now
[1:05:25] Speaker 2: fifty two, You're not four. You're safe. No one's going
[1:05:28] Speaker 2: to hurt you. And what a beautiful healing journey to
[1:05:33] Speaker 2: then integrate that part back to me and go, I'm
[1:05:36] Speaker 2: going to look after you. Nobody will hurt you. You're
[1:05:38] Speaker 2: not four, because as a four year old meant to
[1:05:41] Speaker 2: in that situation with a six foot two man protect herself,
[1:05:46] Speaker 2: she's going to submit. So the coding is that wherever
[1:05:49] Speaker 2: I being coded, is it serving me looking at my
[1:05:53] Speaker 2: relationships as a reflection, and how can I break it?
[1:05:57] Speaker 2: So it's gone from the book that I was originally
[1:06:00] Speaker 2: right into breaking the good Girl code, which kind of
[1:06:03] Speaker 2: fits into the whole mission. If we break the code,
[1:06:06] Speaker 2: we break the sailings.
[1:06:08] Speaker 1: Okay, lots of work to do, lots of work to do,
[1:06:11] Speaker 1: but look, I found it very educational and quite fascinating
[1:06:17] Speaker 1: having this chat. And good on you for coming out
[1:06:20] Speaker 1: and speaking about this. But yeah, when you're walking around
[1:06:23] Speaker 1: with a T shirt on, no more silence. So I
[1:06:26] Speaker 1: figured you've got a little bit to say, well done,
[1:06:30] Speaker 1: Well done for turning what is a horrible situation and
[1:06:35] Speaker 1: finding some positivity in the direction that's given you in
[1:06:39] Speaker 1: life and the help that you're trying to do others.
[1:06:41] Speaker 1: And also thank you for your work in the cops,
[1:06:44] Speaker 1: so I know the sacrifices you've got to make and
[1:06:47] Speaker 1: the work you did that after that in the child
[1:06:49] Speaker 1: protection space. It's a dark world, isn't it.
[1:06:52] Speaker 2: It's so dark. But I think the world's ready to
[1:06:55] Speaker 2: make a change. And I think the more that will
[1:06:58] Speaker 2: speak up, yep, changes happen. It's like we need to roar.
[1:07:02] Speaker 2: We need voices to come together to be able to
[1:07:05] Speaker 2: say we've had enough. You know, we've had enough of
[1:07:08] Speaker 2: this suppression and this violence and this harm. We need
[1:07:13] Speaker 2: men and women to come together to unite and not divided,
[1:07:17] Speaker 2: to come together. And I think there's a possibility that
[1:07:20] Speaker 2: we come. I believe in my lifetime that I will
[1:07:23] Speaker 2: leave a legacy behind.
[1:07:25] Speaker 1: Yeah, well I think I think the legacy might be
[1:07:27] Speaker 1: four boys that you're raising that have been pointed in
[1:07:32] Speaker 1: the right direction. So congratulations on that. Thanks very much,
[1:07:35] Speaker 1: Thank you, Jeers

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