# Infiltrating Australia's illegal brothels: Jas Rawlinson Pt. 2

An episode of [I Catch Killers with Gary Jubelin](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1506667049), 15 Jun 2026, 1 h 09 min.

Audio: https://p.podderapp.com/2544644999/traffic.omny.fm/d/clips/2fb3740d-3436-44af-8cc0-a91900716aa5/5bc8c2ed-b718-4f44-beb3-ac2a005246cc/3d466a6c-7a7e-4e63-9b4a-b46a00218e2a/audio.mp3?utm_source=Podcast&in_playlist=786928c3-10c1-4cef-a7bf-ac2a005246d0

For 18 months, Jas Rawlinson went undercover to investigate illegal massage parlours across Brisbane. What she discovered was venues hiding exploitation, debt bondage and human trafficking in plain sight. In part two of her chat with Gary on I Catch Killers, Jas shares the personal stories of women she met inside these venues, her chilling encounters with men on underground forums, and her frustrating attempts to get police and media to take action. Subscribe to our new Youtube channel. Follow I Catch Killers: Instagram: @icatchkillers Tiktok: @icatchkillerspodcast Facebook: @icatchkillers See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

## Transcript

[0:01] Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.
[0:05] Speaker 1: Detective see aside of life. The average person is never
[0:08] Speaker 1: exposed her I spent thirty four years as a cop.
[0:11] Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.
[0:14] Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a
[0:16] Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,
[0:20] Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.
[0:23] Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories
[0:26] Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw
[0:28] Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some
[0:31] Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because
[0:34] Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.
[0:38] Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.
[0:46] Speaker 1: It's happening in your neighborhood right now. Young women trapped,
[0:49] Speaker 1: coerst forced into sexual servitude, hidden in planing sight, behind
[0:54] Speaker 1: the doors of massage parlors and legitimate looking businesses, and
[0:59] Speaker 1: most of us have no idea. In Part two of
[1:02] Speaker 1: my chat with Jazz Rowlinson, we dive into years of
[1:05] Speaker 1: work going undercover, gathering evidence, and fighting to make people
[1:09] Speaker 1: care about the victims caught up in this world. This
[1:12] Speaker 1: conversation is confronting, it's uncomfortable, but it's one we desperately
[1:17] Speaker 1: need to have. Have a listen, Jaz Rolinson, welcome back
[1:22] Speaker 1: to part two of I Catchkillers.
[1:24] Speaker 2: Thank you.
[1:25] Speaker 1: Okay, Well, we've talked about your early childhood and we
[1:31] Speaker 1: finished off giving men good men a rap, but then
[1:36] Speaker 1: we talked about some of the things that yeah, men
[1:40] Speaker 1: don't shine in different aspects of their life. What I
[1:44] Speaker 1: want to start off talking about now is your let's
[1:48] Speaker 1: call it an investigation, because I think it was an
[1:50] Speaker 1: investigation into the ced massage parlors, which quite often masquerading
[1:57] Speaker 1: as a massage parlor, but they're brothels. And we'll do
[2:03] Speaker 1: we'll do a disclaimer here so we don't get ourselves
[2:05] Speaker 1: in the trouble. There are genuine, legitimate, legitimate mass massage businesses,
[2:10] Speaker 1: but I think people that got their eyes open would
[2:14] Speaker 1: know the type that we're talking about. One of the
[2:18] Speaker 1: things again, and if I can just borrow your book
[2:21] Speaker 1: for a sec because I keep referring to it, and
[2:23] Speaker 1: I'll just the cover of your book is put you there.
[2:28] Speaker 1: One of the things you refer to in your book,
[2:31] Speaker 1: and that you think this was a turning point when
[2:34] Speaker 1: you went over to Thailand and you're with a group
[2:38] Speaker 1: and that you're looking at human trafficking, and.
[2:40] Speaker 2: Yeah, well, we went with an organization that supports victims
[2:45] Speaker 2: of human trafficking, and so they had taken us to
[2:49] Speaker 2: have a look at some of the I mean, I
[2:52] Speaker 2: say have a look at but they were taking us
[2:53] Speaker 2: through the red light district and we were learning about
[2:56] Speaker 2: the places where many young people, boys and girls and
[3:01] Speaker 2: women as well had been rescued from and that was
[3:05] Speaker 2: really eye opening. That was some of the early days
[3:07] Speaker 2: of me learning more about human trafficking.
[3:10] Speaker 1: It left an indelible impression on your mind. But one
[3:13] Speaker 1: of the things that you wrote in the book, and
[3:16] Speaker 1: when you were walking through that group, a young girl
[3:18] Speaker 1: reached out and held held your hand, and it wasn't
[3:21] Speaker 1: in a confrontational way. It was in a way that
[3:24] Speaker 1: it was almost you looked into her eyes and you
[3:27] Speaker 1: could see her pain, and the quote I made a
[3:31] Speaker 1: serious commitment, don't look away, I told myself, lean into
[3:34] Speaker 1: the pain. Remember, nothing changes unless we choose to confront
[3:38] Speaker 1: that which we wished to change. Powerful words, but that
[3:42] Speaker 1: was sort of mentality. You came away from that experience
[3:46] Speaker 1: and just seeing the pain in this young girl's eyes
[3:48] Speaker 1: and there was nothing you could do to help up.
[3:50] Speaker 2: And I reached out to the organization that we were
[3:53] Speaker 2: with and I was like, look, I know, probably grasping
[3:56] Speaker 2: at straws here, but you know, this is the young
[3:59] Speaker 2: woman that reached out to me in the red light district.
[4:02] Speaker 2: And it was in this place. I won't say the
[4:05] Speaker 2: name of it, but it's a very famous place where
[4:08] Speaker 2: a lot of men go to get sexual gratification. And
[4:12] Speaker 2: there's a lot of bars and things there and the
[4:15] Speaker 2: young women, you know, some of whom are underage, will
[4:19] Speaker 2: sometimes be standing outside and they'll, you know, they'll wait
[4:22] Speaker 2: till a group of men are coming, and then they'll
[4:24] Speaker 2: put their masks on and they'll start giggling and they'll
[4:27] Speaker 2: try to get you to come in. And this young
[4:30] Speaker 2: woman just reached out and just touched my arm and
[4:34] Speaker 2: I turned and looked at her, and she just kind
[4:37] Speaker 2: of stared at me for a moment, and then she
[4:39] Speaker 2: gave me this really small little smile. And it was
[4:42] Speaker 2: so different to the other women who were like, come in,
[4:44] Speaker 2: come in, like trying to get you to come in
[4:46] Speaker 2: and buy drinks and things. And I was like, what
[4:50] Speaker 2: is this woman's story, what's going on here? But we
[4:53] Speaker 2: were walking through it the time to leave, and I
[4:56] Speaker 2: just didn't know what to do, and there was nothing
[4:58] Speaker 2: I could do except for the give her a little smile,
[5:01] Speaker 2: just like I see you. And I did reach out
[5:04] Speaker 2: to the organization later and I'm like, look, I know
[5:06] Speaker 2: it probably sounds silly, but this is where I saw
[5:08] Speaker 2: this young woman. Here's a photograph I got of the
[5:11] Speaker 2: outside of it that shows her. I don't know if
[5:14] Speaker 2: there's anyone that can go. And I was like, I
[5:17] Speaker 2: don't know, can anyone do anything. I don't know if
[5:20] Speaker 2: she's okay or not. But there was nothing I could
[5:22] Speaker 2: really do. But that quote that you read was really
[5:26] Speaker 2: I mean, that's what I've always tried to empower others
[5:29] Speaker 2: with is when we see something, don't look away. We
[5:32] Speaker 2: might not be able to help, when we can't help
[5:35] Speaker 2: every single person out there who's suffering in some way,
[5:38] Speaker 2: but what's important is that we don't look away and
[5:41] Speaker 2: that we do do what we can. So when I
[5:43] Speaker 2: came back from that trip, I was really committed to
[5:45] Speaker 2: doing whatever I could wherever to help survivors or victims
[5:51] Speaker 2: of sexual exploitation, and that included you know, running fundraisers
[5:54] Speaker 2: to raise money for organizations or for rescued victim survivors
[5:59] Speaker 2: that need support. So if I could help financially, I did,
[6:03] Speaker 2: and I have supported various organizations for years financially. But
[6:07] Speaker 2: it was also, you know, coming into the investigations I
[6:11] Speaker 2: did into illegal brothels, It was also making a decision
[6:16] Speaker 2: not to just like see those dodgy little flashing signs
[6:19] Speaker 2: and those newspapered windows and just ignore it, as I
[6:25] Speaker 2: did over time, to find ways to try and help
[6:28] Speaker 2: some of the women in there, or to go to
[6:30] Speaker 2: the police. And that wasn't really they didn't really help me,
[6:34] Speaker 2: but I knew that at least I'd reported these venues
[6:38] Speaker 2: and I was doing what I could.
[6:39] Speaker 1: When you first went over to Thailand, how did you
[6:44] Speaker 1: get involved in this group? Like what Initia that.
[6:46] Speaker 2: Said that all stemmed from the festival as well, where
[6:49] Speaker 2: I was working as a photojournalist, and so as long
[6:53] Speaker 2: as well as meeting the men at the men's shed,
[6:57] Speaker 2: one of the stories I picked up for that day
[6:59] Speaker 2: was to do a story on Destiny Rescue and the
[7:02] Speaker 2: work that they were doing in anti human trafficking, and
[7:05] Speaker 2: so then I started to learn more about them, and
[7:07] Speaker 2: I'd been donating to them for some time, and then
[7:11] Speaker 2: in twenty I think it's twenty thirteen, I went overseas
[7:14] Speaker 2: as part of a group with them, and that was
[7:17] Speaker 2: when I went over and helped. You know, there was
[7:21] Speaker 2: a young woman who was starting her own hair soil
[7:23] Speaker 2: on business and we helped to renovate that space for
[7:26] Speaker 2: her and help clean it and get it all ready
[7:28] Speaker 2: for her to open her own business. And we helped
[7:30] Speaker 2: with at some of the prevention homes with getting their
[7:35] Speaker 2: gardens done or just helping in lots of different ways
[7:38] Speaker 2: where we could, and at the same time getting to
[7:40] Speaker 2: learn a bit about the issues that were happening over
[7:44] Speaker 2: in Southeast Asia and the work that they were doing so.
[7:47] Speaker 1: The Southeast Asia. And I'm sure it would be confronting
[7:51] Speaker 1: seeing what you would have seen going on a tour
[7:53] Speaker 1: like that. There's some I don't aspire to this, but
[7:58] Speaker 1: I know there's narrative there that, well, that's over in
[8:01] Speaker 1: another country. We shouldn't buy into it. That's helping the girls.
[8:05] Speaker 1: The girls are there because they're paying for their families,
[8:08] Speaker 1: and their families are actually forcing them into that sort
[8:10] Speaker 1: of lifestyle, and that who are you a group of
[8:14] Speaker 1: people from buying into the wake ideology and all the
[8:20] Speaker 1: other criticism. What's your thoughts on that, because I think
[8:24] Speaker 1: you can shout those opinions down pretty quick if someone
[8:28] Speaker 1: came at you like that, going, well, you shouldn't interfear.
[8:30] Speaker 1: That's their culture. You let them do what they do.
[8:33] Speaker 2: Who I get it all the time. There's entire reddit
[8:36] Speaker 2: and Internet threads written specifically about me and how prawn
[8:40] Speaker 2: of the patriarchy or something like that. I've never actually
[8:43] Speaker 2: read the article, but it comes up in SEO and
[8:45] Speaker 2: I'm like, oh that. Sometimes it comes up and there
[8:47] Speaker 2: it is again and it was exactly what you said.
[8:50] Speaker 2: They're like write, you know, jazz ruins and spits, woke
[8:55] Speaker 2: a gender or something like that. But a lot of
[8:57] Speaker 2: men have come at me, especially men that do like
[9:00] Speaker 2: to travel to Southeast Asia to exploit women's sexually. I'll
[9:04] Speaker 2: call it what it is. That is what it is.
[9:05] Speaker 2: That's why they go there because they can buy a
[9:09] Speaker 2: girl for you know, back when I was investigating or
[9:13] Speaker 2: learning about it over there, they could buy some of
[9:15] Speaker 2: these hill tribe girls in certain villages for you know,
[9:18] Speaker 2: a couple of dollars. They can get their beers for
[9:22] Speaker 2: a dollar or a couple of dollars, and they would
[9:24] Speaker 2: come at me and they would be like, well, they're
[9:26] Speaker 2: you know, they're paying for their families, and basically like
[9:31] Speaker 2: they're making a living, So why are you stopping them
[9:33] Speaker 2: from making a living. And I've said, I've said many times, like, hey,
[9:38] Speaker 2: maybe there are some women who are there who have
[9:41] Speaker 2: other options, and they choose to do this specifically because
[9:44] Speaker 2: they want to, and they have other options at any time,
[9:48] Speaker 2: but a large majority are there because of a lack
[9:50] Speaker 2: of any other option. And what I learned is that
[9:53] Speaker 2: a lot of women are coerced, sometimes even kidnapped into it,
[9:58] Speaker 2: or often love bombed, grow and coerced into the sex
[10:02] Speaker 2: trade from hill tribe villages. And in those villages, they
[10:06] Speaker 2: don't even have passports, so they don't have any way
[10:10] Speaker 2: to get a job in the city. And just like
[10:14] Speaker 2: in many relationships where we see course of control and grooming,
[10:19] Speaker 2: someone might come to the village and these are some
[10:21] Speaker 2: of the stories I heard when I was there, and
[10:24] Speaker 2: they'd say, Hey, we've got this restaurant job and we're
[10:26] Speaker 2: looking for young workers. We're looking for workers who would
[10:30] Speaker 2: like a restaurant job. And you think about it. If
[10:32] Speaker 2: you've grown up in an environment where you don't even
[10:34] Speaker 2: have a passport, you live in the hill tribe, you
[10:37] Speaker 2: live with very little. As a daughter, it is your
[10:40] Speaker 2: responsibility to provide for your family. Of course you're going
[10:44] Speaker 2: to go, hey, I'm going to take this opportunity and
[10:46] Speaker 2: run with it. So they tell them like, hey, we've
[10:48] Speaker 2: got these restaurant jobs and we can take you there.
[10:51] Speaker 2: And then there's many cases where those young women are
[10:55] Speaker 2: sexually assaulted, raped. Some escape, some don't. Others stay because
[11:00] Speaker 2: they have no other options, they don't have identification to
[11:03] Speaker 2: get any other job, and some, you know, believe that, well,
[11:08] Speaker 2: this is what I have to do to support my family.
[11:11] Speaker 2: So I always clap back at you know. There's an
[11:15] Speaker 2: article I wrote for news dot com dot you many
[11:17] Speaker 2: years ago where I spoke with an undercover worker who
[11:20] Speaker 2: I'm friends with, and he shared with me his experiences
[11:22] Speaker 2: of spending many years standing sitting alongside men in bars,
[11:27] Speaker 2: drinking with them, pretending to be one of them. When
[11:30] Speaker 2: I say pretending, I don't mean he engaged in any
[11:33] Speaker 2: of those things, just he would sit in the bars
[11:35] Speaker 2: and talk with them and pretend that he was there
[11:37] Speaker 2: for the same kinds of things, and the men would
[11:40] Speaker 2: say to him, Oh, well, you know, I'm helping her out,
[11:43] Speaker 2: like I'm helping her to provide for her family. And
[11:47] Speaker 2: he said to one of these men one day, if
[11:49] Speaker 2: that was your daughter, would you like me to come
[11:52] Speaker 2: along and take her and have sex with her and
[11:54] Speaker 2: give her some cash at the end, like would you
[11:57] Speaker 2: like your daughter to live that life? And it was like, well, no,
[12:01] Speaker 2: not really. But it's like, you're not helping them. You
[12:04] Speaker 2: think you're helping them, You're just helping. You're just pleasuring
[12:07] Speaker 2: yourself and gaslighting yourself and pretending and gaslating others and
[12:12] Speaker 2: pretending that you're being a savior to them. You can't.
[12:16] Speaker 1: They can't dress it up that well, they're helping, helping
[12:20] Speaker 1: these poor people.
[12:22] Speaker 2: Go and give them, go and give them money and groceries,
[12:24] Speaker 2: bring them groceries, find job opportunities for them if you
[12:27] Speaker 2: want to help them, job opportunities where they don't have
[12:31] Speaker 2: to be at risk of death or severe harm or
[12:34] Speaker 2: sexual disease or anything, you know, lifelong trauma. Yeah, they're
[12:39] Speaker 2: just just lying to themselves.
[12:41] Speaker 1: And that's that's the sadness of it. But that's overseas
[12:45] Speaker 1: and people yeah, well they I'm not sure how if
[12:48] Speaker 1: they do actually, but you hear the talk of a
[12:50] Speaker 1: sex tour or whatever. I'm sure it's advertised and those
[12:55] Speaker 1: type of things. But with people like yourself speaking out,
[13:00] Speaker 1: I think it's calling for what it is because it's
[13:03] Speaker 1: almost like it's too ugly to really delve into. Let's
[13:07] Speaker 1: look at the dynamics of it. But you've got young
[13:09] Speaker 1: innocent girls from a hill tribe in a really starting
[13:14] Speaker 1: off a disadvantage and the power in balance and then
[13:17] Speaker 1: course to coming to the city to make some money.
[13:20] Speaker 1: The families probably are this is good, We're going to survive,
[13:23] Speaker 1: The family will have food. What the horrible situation to be?
[13:27] Speaker 2: Yeah, and the lifelong trauma that many of these women
[13:29] Speaker 2: live with is just horrific, you know, from like there's
[13:34] Speaker 2: women that I've sponsored, there is you know, there was
[13:38] Speaker 2: a young person that I had the honor of interviewing
[13:43] Speaker 2: who she didn't say that she had been in those
[13:48] Speaker 2: sorts of situations. And I don't know, maybe she wasn't,
[13:50] Speaker 2: but I also know that within that culture, it's not
[13:53] Speaker 2: something that they want to admit to if they didn't
[13:56] Speaker 2: have to be in that environment. But I've interviewed when
[14:00] Speaker 2: and that we're in exploitative situations in other ways. And
[14:04] Speaker 2: many of the women's stories or girls, you know, there
[14:07] Speaker 2: were girls that I met on that trip who were thirteen,
[14:10] Speaker 2: fourteen or fifteen and had already been out of the
[14:12] Speaker 2: industry for two or three years.
[14:14] Speaker 1: So how young were they when they're prone into the industry.
[14:18] Speaker 2: So it's like it's like it's happening, you're not helping.
[14:22] Speaker 2: But then, as you said, there's people who say, well,
[14:24] Speaker 2: that's happening overseas, so why should we really care about it,
[14:27] Speaker 2: And as long as they're getny money and then provide
[14:30] Speaker 2: for their family.
[14:30] Speaker 1: Well, it's not this similar to child pornography. The industry
[14:36] Speaker 1: wouldn't flourish unless people want them to want to view
[14:39] Speaker 1: view it.
[14:40] Speaker 2: So don't take up with the demand for it.
[14:43] Speaker 1: That wouldn't be there. And the girls over there and
[14:46] Speaker 1: we'll talk overseas before we bring it back here. They
[14:50] Speaker 1: deal with the shame too, like quite often they've forced
[14:53] Speaker 1: into an industry and then they've got to carry that
[14:55] Speaker 1: shame and their families reject them because of the work
[14:58] Speaker 1: they did.
[14:59] Speaker 2: Yeah horrible, and then they're like, well, what's left for me?
[15:02] Speaker 2: Maybe I go back to that, because what else do
[15:05] Speaker 2: I have tough for now? Like my family brought shame
[15:08] Speaker 2: on my family, or I don't want them to know.
[15:11] Speaker 1: So you've been over there, you come back to Australia
[15:15] Speaker 1: and you're driving through your suburb and you look and.
[15:20] Speaker 2: The newspaper windows, what's that?
[15:23] Speaker 1: And your curiosity got the better of you. Described in
[15:25] Speaker 1: part one how you went in there and that the
[15:28] Speaker 1: person just slightly in the door. That's sort of an indicator.
[15:31] Speaker 1: That's not a.
[15:32] Speaker 2: Oh you're not male, what are you doing here?
[15:35] Speaker 1: Be confused? Yeah, tell us that story. How deep you
[15:38] Speaker 1: went into that? And I think you got on the
[15:41] Speaker 1: social media chat or a chat line with people, people
[15:45] Speaker 1: involved in the.
[15:46] Speaker 2: Forum of some kind. Okay, that's as much as I
[15:48] Speaker 2: will say. So. Yeah, in part one I was talking
[15:52] Speaker 2: about that Queenslander house that I went to and I
[15:55] Speaker 2: pretended I was new to the air and looking for
[15:58] Speaker 2: somewhere to get a massage, and yeah, they would have
[16:00] Speaker 2: been suspicious, going this is not our usual clientele. And
[16:05] Speaker 2: that's where I met this woman that I called Chelsea
[16:07] Speaker 2: in my book and began to understand more about what
[16:09] Speaker 2: she was experiencing in terms of sexual pressure from men.
[16:13] Speaker 2: Even though she wasn't providing sexual services in her boss,
[16:16] Speaker 2: there wasn't forcing her to, she was still exposed to
[16:20] Speaker 2: sexual harassment and very some very future scary situations that
[16:25] Speaker 2: we both found ourselves in together. There were other places
[16:29] Speaker 2: I went into where there was somewhere on the south side,
[16:31] Speaker 2: and again it was like an old Queenslander home. You
[16:34] Speaker 2: couldn't access it from the front. On the front it
[16:37] Speaker 2: had like a big say like hot Stone Massage sign
[16:39] Speaker 2: or something like that. So you know, I walked around
[16:43] Speaker 2: the back, which red flag. If you have to access
[16:46] Speaker 2: the venue from the back and you have to walk
[16:48] Speaker 2: through their clothesline clothes, it's probably not very legit. I
[16:53] Speaker 2: walk up and as I come in, I see this
[16:56] Speaker 2: and look, I just want to say, first up, the
[16:58] Speaker 2: people who go to these venues come from every culture,
[17:02] Speaker 2: every background. You know. I've seen white men, I've seen
[17:05] Speaker 2: men that aren't white. That particular day, I saw like
[17:08] Speaker 2: a Lebanese man and he was with a young Asian woman.
[17:13] Speaker 2: She looked very young, and she just had her arms
[17:15] Speaker 2: like wrapped around herself and she was hot, like bent over,
[17:19] Speaker 2: and he was just like walking out like all casual.
[17:22] Speaker 2: And I was like that young woman like dressed in
[17:26] Speaker 2: a little body corn mini dress. Doesn't look very comfortable
[17:30] Speaker 2: right now. And I'm standing there in the back door
[17:33] Speaker 2: of this like Queensland at home, and then this woman
[17:37] Speaker 2: comes up and I said, oh, hi, I saw you
[17:40] Speaker 2: do hot stone massage. And she was like huh, And
[17:42] Speaker 2: I was like, you do hotstone massage and she was
[17:45] Speaker 2: like hot what. I was like, yeah, okay, I know
[17:48] Speaker 2: what's going on here. So I did my speel and
[17:51] Speaker 2: asked for a business card. And sometimes I would get
[17:53] Speaker 2: a business card. Sometimes they didn't have one, and they
[17:55] Speaker 2: just write their number on a piece of paper. And
[17:58] Speaker 2: then when I get home, I would search that phone
[18:01] Speaker 2: number online and it would always come back to some
[18:05] Speaker 2: sort of adult forum or a Twitter account, like an
[18:09] Speaker 2: x rated Twitter account. And that was how I started
[18:13] Speaker 2: to get this pattern going. And I started to look
[18:15] Speaker 2: at more and more places, all different environments, like you know,
[18:19] Speaker 2: some more CD areas and then some very rich neighborhoods
[18:22] Speaker 2: where you've got million dollar houses interspersed with these little
[18:27] Speaker 2: little venues. One night, a friend and I sat outside
[18:30] Speaker 2: a venue that had been raided years earlier, and it
[18:34] Speaker 2: was still operating, and we sat there and we just
[18:37] Speaker 2: waited to see if any women came out because it
[18:39] Speaker 2: was an open late venue like all of them. We
[18:42] Speaker 2: sat there till about ten o'clock and no one came out.
[18:46] Speaker 2: Like all of the others, you could only access it
[18:48] Speaker 2: from the back door. I did go into that one
[18:50] Speaker 2: once and have a massage. So what I would do
[18:54] Speaker 2: is I would go in get a card, and then
[18:57] Speaker 2: later on I would spend my own money to go
[18:59] Speaker 2: and get just like a regular massage, which were often
[19:03] Speaker 2: not very good massage, like my back would just get
[19:07] Speaker 2: pounded for like fitspounding on my back for half an hoursage.
[19:13] Speaker 2: I'd walk out with my back all ft up, you know.
[19:17] Speaker 2: And meanwhile, you know, I was reading articles of men
[19:21] Speaker 2: who were doing their own undercover work and actually sexually
[19:25] Speaker 2: exploiting women in the process and getting paid to do
[19:28] Speaker 2: these investigations. And I'm like, here, I am trying to
[19:30] Speaker 2: expose what's going on, getting a bad massage and walking
[19:34] Speaker 2: out as a saw back. But the whole reason I
[19:37] Speaker 2: was doing it was to try to make connections with
[19:39] Speaker 2: some of these young women. And usually I only had
[19:41] Speaker 2: to go once to find out what was actually happening.
[19:45] Speaker 2: I would build, you know, a little bit of a
[19:47] Speaker 2: connection with the young women and they would talk to
[19:49] Speaker 2: me about it.
[19:50] Speaker 1: So while you're in there getting a massagssage, talking to
[19:53] Speaker 1: them and they're revealing a little bit.
[19:55] Speaker 2: Yeah, And often they'd be there alone. Sometimes there would
[19:58] Speaker 2: be a ma massage there, which is like the feet
[20:00] Speaker 2: female manager. And they they've been cases here in Australia
[20:04] Speaker 2: where you've it's been reported in the news of these
[20:07] Speaker 2: female mama sons exploiting these women, of forcing them into
[20:12] Speaker 2: human trafficking. But there was one venue I went to
[20:15] Speaker 2: one night and there was just a young Asian woman
[20:18] Speaker 2: there all by herself, and she's massaging me, and I'm
[20:22] Speaker 2: just sort of trying to talk to her about a
[20:24] Speaker 2: day and she keeps apologizing because she can't really do
[20:28] Speaker 2: the massage very well, and I'm so sorry, is this okay? Yeah,
[20:33] Speaker 2: it's okay, It's really not, but it's okay. And then
[20:37] Speaker 2: i'd say, oh, you know, maybe just like a little
[20:39] Speaker 2: bit more pressure or something, she'd be okay. And then
[20:42] Speaker 2: I hadn't noticed. I hear this sniffling, and I'm like, oh,
[20:46] Speaker 2: maybe she's just got a little bit of a cold
[20:47] Speaker 2: or something. And then I hear more sniffling, and then
[20:49] Speaker 2: I can feel her fingers just trembling on my back,
[20:53] Speaker 2: and I say you okay, and then she just broke
[20:55] Speaker 2: down into tears. She was sobbing, and she was like,
[20:58] Speaker 2: I'm so sorry. I'm trying my best. The man that
[21:01] Speaker 2: was in before you, he's so angry, so angry, you know,
[21:05] Speaker 2: I'm not doing it properly. And I was like, well, look,
[21:08] Speaker 2: if nobody's taught you how to do it, how could
[21:10] Speaker 2: you you know? Like, how could you know how to
[21:13] Speaker 2: how to do a proper remedial massage? Like, sure, you're
[21:16] Speaker 2: doing your best, and just tried to comfort her. And
[21:20] Speaker 2: at the end of that night, because it was fairly late,
[21:23] Speaker 2: I said, how are you getting home? She's like, I
[21:25] Speaker 2: get the bus. And I was like, look, can I
[21:27] Speaker 2: drive you home? And eventually she was like yeah, yeah,
[21:31] Speaker 2: And I was like, because I'm happy too, like I'll
[21:34] Speaker 2: wait with you here for the bus or I'll drive
[21:37] Speaker 2: you either way, so I make sure you get on
[21:39] Speaker 2: a bus or you get home properly, safely. So she
[21:43] Speaker 2: ended up saying yes, you can drive me home, and
[21:45] Speaker 2: I start driving her and then she says, oh, but
[21:47] Speaker 2: you'll need to drop me off a little bit before
[21:50] Speaker 2: the house. You can't drive up to the house. And
[21:53] Speaker 2: I was like, oh, okay, why is that And she's like, oh,
[21:55] Speaker 2: the landlord will be very angry. And I was like,
[21:59] Speaker 2: what kind of place are these poor, you know, migrant
[22:04] Speaker 2: workers living and she was like oh. I was asking
[22:08] Speaker 2: her about it, like, oh, what's the you know, what's
[22:10] Speaker 2: your accommodation? Like do you like it? And she said
[22:13] Speaker 2: a few things raising red flags, which for example, she
[22:16] Speaker 2: told me it was she lived there alone, but she
[22:18] Speaker 2: was only paying say something like fifty dollars a week
[22:20] Speaker 2: or one hundred bucks a week. I'm like, even back then,
[22:23] Speaker 2: you know in that tiegrame, that's not that's not how
[22:26] Speaker 2: much a house to yourself costs. And then she's telling
[22:30] Speaker 2: me she doesn't want anyone to see her dropped off,
[22:32] Speaker 2: and I was like, what in the world am I
[22:35] Speaker 2: stumbling onto? You know? So I dropped her where she
[22:37] Speaker 2: asked me. But then what I was finding with like
[22:42] Speaker 2: to come back to the forum I was seeing, like,
[22:45] Speaker 2: so I would go to these online forums which.
[22:47] Speaker 1: Are just disgusted one of them. So I signed up.
[22:51] Speaker 2: I signed up to the forum, and I gave myself
[22:53] Speaker 2: a user name that was just like all of the
[22:56] Speaker 2: other people on there with gross innuendos in it, and
[23:00] Speaker 2: I was like, you know, I got to try and
[23:01] Speaker 2: look like I'm one of them.
[23:03] Speaker 1: And something like that.
[23:05] Speaker 2: Oh yeah, well, they all gave themselves all kinds of
[23:09] Speaker 2: stupid names, and it was, you know, it's a full
[23:12] Speaker 2: boys club in there. So they're bragging about where they're
[23:15] Speaker 2: getting their happy endings from, and the same time they're
[23:18] Speaker 2: bragging about it, they're completely belittling the women. They're giving
[23:22] Speaker 2: away personal details that would help people identify them, like, hey,
[23:26] Speaker 2: here's her name, which may not have been it's her
[23:28] Speaker 2: shop name, right, but they're describing her and then they're
[23:31] Speaker 2: describing what services they got from her. So then every
[23:34] Speaker 2: man that's on there right is going to go, oh, well,
[23:37] Speaker 2: I know that Say Rose is going to I know
[23:40] Speaker 2: she's done this for that guy, so I'm going to
[23:43] Speaker 2: try and get that out of her too. And there's
[23:45] Speaker 2: men giving their unsolicited advice about well, you know, if
[23:48] Speaker 2: you if you do it properly, you won't even have
[23:51] Speaker 2: to pay, you know, which is then getting into the
[23:54] Speaker 2: actual rape and sexual exploitation. There were men that were
[23:57] Speaker 2: admitting like, oh, yeah, she didn't seem very into it,
[24:01] Speaker 2: or even she had bruises on her, but they didn't care.
[24:05] Speaker 2: So I'm seeing this over and over and there was
[24:08] Speaker 2: you know, some of the men were reluctant to give
[24:10] Speaker 2: advice to new users, so I had to like be
[24:13] Speaker 2: on the on the forum for a while, which was
[24:15] Speaker 2: mentally very difficult just reading these disgusting things day in
[24:20] Speaker 2: and day out, and you know, just making small talk
[24:24] Speaker 2: really to try to create some sort of connection. Yeah,
[24:27] Speaker 2: not not you know, not pretending I'm doing the things
[24:30] Speaker 2: they are, but like, oh, hey, boys, I'm I'm just
[24:33] Speaker 2: in Brisbane for work at the moment, used to being
[24:35] Speaker 2: in the Sydney area. What's good in what's good in Brisbane?
[24:38] Speaker 2: You know? What should I check out on the north
[24:41] Speaker 2: side or the South side? You know those kinds of things.
[24:44] Speaker 2: And some of them just couldn't help themselves. They just
[24:47] Speaker 2: love to give advice. So they were giving me all
[24:49] Speaker 2: the advice and where to go?
[24:51] Speaker 1: Were we talking when you're online.
[24:54] Speaker 2: They'd have to be thousands like because it was separated
[24:58] Speaker 2: too via what parts of Australia, So I was only
[25:03] Speaker 2: interacting in the Brisbane part of the forum.
[25:05] Speaker 1: So they give me the doors if you go to
[25:08] Speaker 1: this one ask for this girl.
[25:11] Speaker 2: Yeah, they just say I saw this girl, you know,
[25:13] Speaker 2: I'd rate her a three for looks, but tapped her
[25:16] Speaker 2: and left, you know, like just the most misogynistic, vile things.
[25:20] Speaker 2: It just had no respect. And like I said, if
[25:22] Speaker 2: they saw signs of bruising, they'd even mention that they
[25:24] Speaker 2: saw bruising or she wasn't into it, didn't put much
[25:28] Speaker 2: effort in, but they got what they were there for
[25:31] Speaker 2: and they left.
[25:31] Speaker 1: And it's like, did anyone call the on this my chat?
[25:34] Speaker 1: Or they're all down the same rabbit.
[25:36] Speaker 2: Very occasionally they'd be like, say, one person I'd see
[25:38] Speaker 2: who was like, hey, you should call that in, like
[25:42] Speaker 2: they could be being trafficked. But most people, whatever, they
[25:46] Speaker 2: know what they're like literally what they would say. And
[25:49] Speaker 2: I've got many of these quotes in my book, like
[25:50] Speaker 2: the exact conversations that we had. But it was like,
[25:53] Speaker 2: they know what they're there for. They're all money hungry whorees.
[25:57] Speaker 2: They're just over here to make money. They know what
[25:59] Speaker 2: this is. Apout it's like no, like some of them
[26:03] Speaker 2: may have gone into the parlors knowing that those services
[26:08] Speaker 2: might be requested, others might not. You know, many were forced.
[26:13] Speaker 2: There were venues I went to that had been raided
[26:16] Speaker 2: in the past, or one of them was raided after
[26:19] Speaker 2: I'd finished my investigations, and you know, I submitted all
[26:22] Speaker 2: of this evidence to the police. They didn't really seem
[26:25] Speaker 2: to care.
[26:26] Speaker 1: So you gathered those details.
[26:30] Speaker 2: I had screenshots of all these discussing conversations online with
[26:34] Speaker 2: the exact names of the venue, the girls, what was
[26:36] Speaker 2: being provided, the money that was being exchanged, bruising abuse allegations,
[26:43] Speaker 2: and you know, the detective that I spoke to said, ah, well,
[26:49] Speaker 2: there's two things. One was we don't help the victims.
[26:52] Speaker 2: We just deport them back home. And I was like, great, Great,
[26:56] Speaker 2: that's because that's really helping the situation the demand and
[27:00] Speaker 2: is not going to be like the demand is going
[27:02] Speaker 2: to keep growing, supplies going to keep growing. Deporting the
[27:06] Speaker 2: victims and giving them no support, is it going to
[27:09] Speaker 2: stop the industry.
[27:10] Speaker 1: The police And I'm not really for me with the industry.
[27:13] Speaker 1: The counsel enforced certain aspects of a police get involved.
[27:18] Speaker 1: If a police did get involved then found out that
[27:21] Speaker 1: this massage parlor was acting as an illegal brothel. Are
[27:25] Speaker 1: the girls working their charge? Is that what they're deported for?
[27:30] Speaker 2: At that time, there were girls that are being charged
[27:32] Speaker 2: as if they were perpetrators of illegal crimes. This was
[27:36] Speaker 2: prior to the decriminalization of sex work in Queensland, so
[27:41] Speaker 2: I can't speak to what might happen now now. But
[27:45] Speaker 2: I was told straight up from the detective, Oh, we
[27:47] Speaker 2: don't help them, we just support them. And then I
[27:50] Speaker 2: was seeing instances where girls were being charged for soliciting
[27:55] Speaker 2: sex when they were in a venue where they were
[27:58] Speaker 2: being trafficked or sexually exploited. And then the other thing
[28:01] Speaker 2: that was said to me when I handed over, there's
[28:03] Speaker 2: big wad of evidence, which was all the screenshots and
[28:08] Speaker 2: breakdowns of every venue I'd been to and what I'd
[28:11] Speaker 2: seen there, and the links even had like the URL
[28:14] Speaker 2: links printed out, and I was told, oh, I'm really
[28:17] Speaker 2: glad you put the links in because we're not we're
[28:20] Speaker 2: not able to access this content, which to me doesn't
[28:25] Speaker 2: make sense. I'm like, I'm sure you can access it,
[28:26] Speaker 2: but they're like, I'm glad you put the rls in there,
[28:29] Speaker 2: Like why am I doing this? Like why am I
[28:31] Speaker 2: paying my own money doing this on my nights where
[28:34] Speaker 2: I could be resting, spending time with my husband and
[28:38] Speaker 2: nobody's paying me to do any of this investigation.
[28:41] Speaker 1: And you would have thought, were you naive or did
[28:44] Speaker 1: you have a sense that you're going to be pushing
[28:46] Speaker 1: against a system.
[28:48] Speaker 2: I was pretty naive at the time.
[28:49] Speaker 1: I thought this proof of evidence I've gotten, Oh thank you,
[28:53] Speaker 1: You've done all their work, and it will keep you informed.
[28:55] Speaker 1: This is fantastic. But it didn't play it that way.
[28:58] Speaker 2: No, And like I said, I did see that one
[29:00] Speaker 2: of those venues was raided after I'd finished my investigations,
[29:06] Speaker 2: and I have no idea of what I submitted had
[29:09] Speaker 2: anything to do with that. I was just glad when
[29:11] Speaker 2: I saw that it had been shut down. I don't
[29:14] Speaker 2: know if it's reopen again now, because that's the problem,
[29:16] Speaker 2: is that they just keep popping back up, either in
[29:18] Speaker 2: the same venue or somewhere else. But in that particular one,
[29:21] Speaker 2: they did find that the girls were being financially and
[29:25] Speaker 2: sexually exploited by the female mamasan there, and the words
[29:28] Speaker 2: were she was an extremely cruel boss who exploited these women.
[29:33] Speaker 2: But to the outside, and again coming back to what
[29:37] Speaker 2: you said earlier about the attitudes of some men, it's like, oh,
[29:41] Speaker 2: they know what they're there for. They're getting their bags,
[29:44] Speaker 2: so whatever they're just as bad as us, Like they're
[29:47] Speaker 2: exploiting us for our money. And it's like, here's just
[29:51] Speaker 2: one venue where we have evidence that the women in there,
[29:56] Speaker 2: who I saw in tiny little mini dresses and mini
[29:59] Speaker 2: skil and high heels were being enslaved. They didn't know
[30:04] Speaker 2: what they were going to be asked to do, and
[30:06] Speaker 2: they were being forced into trafficking for the men in
[30:10] Speaker 2: that area.
[30:11] Speaker 1: And I naive here, but sometimes that have controls of
[30:15] Speaker 1: their passports and all sorts of stuff like that. Like
[30:18] Speaker 1: it's really we're saying, well, everyone's for a choice, but
[30:21] Speaker 1: it's not necessarily the.
[30:22] Speaker 2: Wa same things that we see, the same patterns we
[30:25] Speaker 2: see in every day like I sort of say, everyday
[30:29] Speaker 2: relationships where COEs of control is a factor, you know,
[30:32] Speaker 2: financial control is wielded.
[30:35] Speaker 1: The thread that I picked up from your upbringing to
[30:38] Speaker 1: where you are now.
[30:39] Speaker 2: It's passports can be passports are often taken, and so yeah,
[30:45] Speaker 2: how are they going to get home? Right?
[30:47] Speaker 1: And would it be a situation also like they've offered, Okay,
[30:51] Speaker 1: we'll pay for your flight over here, but you are
[30:54] Speaker 1: the flight costs three thousand dollars and we're putting up you.
[30:58] Speaker 1: We're paying for your accommodation. You ten thousand dollars and
[31:01] Speaker 1: you've got to keep working.
[31:02] Speaker 2: So that's called debt bondage, and that's really common in
[31:06] Speaker 2: human trafficking, and it's exactly what you said. You can leave,
[31:10] Speaker 2: but first you owe us all of this for bringing
[31:13] Speaker 2: you over here, costs of like you're living. Often these
[31:18] Speaker 2: women might be living on the same premises too, which
[31:20] Speaker 2: is why sometimes in the situation with my friend and
[31:23] Speaker 2: we didn't see anyone leave, So that was part of
[31:26] Speaker 2: my evidence was maybe they are living on sites and
[31:30] Speaker 2: they're just living and working from their twenty for seven.
[31:33] Speaker 2: That's a big part of it.
[31:35] Speaker 1: Tell us some of the personal stories of the girls
[31:37] Speaker 1: that you got to meeting there and what their circumstances
[31:40] Speaker 1: were and did they manage to get away from that industry.
[31:45] Speaker 2: So one of the main women who I talk about
[31:48] Speaker 2: in my book, I call her Chelsea, and she's the
[31:51] Speaker 2: one I met in the very first venue and so
[31:55] Speaker 2: there was a night where we gotten to know each
[31:58] Speaker 2: other a bit and after that very first meeting, I'd
[32:00] Speaker 2: said to like that very first session, I'd said to her, Hey,
[32:03] Speaker 2: if you ever have any questions while you're here in
[32:05] Speaker 2: Australia about laws about situations like that when you explained
[32:10] Speaker 2: where the man just got naked and was sexually harassing you,
[32:14] Speaker 2: you can message me, like if you have any questions,
[32:16] Speaker 2: because here's the thing too, like, regardless of whether these
[32:19] Speaker 2: women speak fairly fluent English or not, they're still not like,
[32:24] Speaker 2: no one's familiar with all of the laws of the
[32:26] Speaker 2: country if they've never lived there. And so I'd said, like,
[32:30] Speaker 2: you can reach out to me about anything if you
[32:32] Speaker 2: have any questions. And we stayed in touch, and while
[32:35] Speaker 2: she was working in the parlors, yeah, we would. We
[32:38] Speaker 2: would stay in touch and she'd chat with me. And
[32:40] Speaker 2: one night I said, hey, do you want to catch
[32:42] Speaker 2: up and she's like, yeah, I'm working over this side
[32:44] Speaker 2: of Brisbane today in this particular venue. And I was like, oh, okay, cool, Well,
[32:49] Speaker 2: I know you're I know you're a good massage, so
[32:51] Speaker 2: how about I come in and I'll book a massage
[32:54] Speaker 2: and then we can go hang out afterwards. And she
[32:57] Speaker 2: was like, yeah, that sounds good. And while I was
[33:01] Speaker 2: there in this venue where it was like in a
[33:04] Speaker 2: strip of shops where there's nothing else open at that
[33:07] Speaker 2: time of night, on a you know, kind of a
[33:10] Speaker 2: main road, not a highway or anything. But there's no
[33:13] Speaker 2: reason for anyone to be around there because everything in
[33:15] Speaker 2: the area is shut. And it was just Chelsea and
[33:18] Speaker 2: one other young woman in the shop, and when I
[33:21] Speaker 2: went in, there was a man who was in with
[33:25] Speaker 2: the one other lady and he was having his massage whatever,
[33:30] Speaker 2: and Chelsea and I were just chatting away, and then
[33:34] Speaker 2: we hear this noise from like the next particle, like
[33:36] Speaker 2: behind the curtain, and this man goes. He was obviously drunk,
[33:40] Speaker 2: and he was like, Oh, who's that girl in the
[33:43] Speaker 2: other room. He's like, who is she? I want to
[33:47] Speaker 2: talk to her? And it sounds ridiculous now, and I've
[33:49] Speaker 2: had people say, oh, you make up these stories, like
[33:52] Speaker 2: you use AI to make you used AI to make
[33:55] Speaker 2: up these stories, And I'm like, first of all, my
[33:57] Speaker 2: book was written before anyone any of us were use
[34:00] Speaker 2: a Secondly, if you have if you think it sounds
[34:04] Speaker 2: cringe or unbelievable, well that's how cringe these men are,
[34:08] Speaker 2: you know. So he's yelling out slurring, Oh that girl
[34:11] Speaker 2: sounds so sexy. I want to talk to her, and
[34:16] Speaker 2: my friend just like zips up, like she just shuts up,
[34:19] Speaker 2: and we sit there like what is this happening, and
[34:22] Speaker 2: then she's like, is he talking about me? And I
[34:24] Speaker 2: was like I think he is, like he must be.
[34:27] Speaker 2: So we get really quiet and we're just she's like,
[34:31] Speaker 2: just got her hand resting on my back, and we're
[34:32] Speaker 2: both just laying their frozen, like what's going on because
[34:36] Speaker 2: we're three petite women in like a store with one
[34:40] Speaker 2: drunk man and he just keeps going and anytime he
[34:43] Speaker 2: hears her voice he starts again like, oh, she sounds
[34:46] Speaker 2: so sexy.
[34:47] Speaker 1: Who is she?
[34:48] Speaker 2: I want that woman, I want that girl. And we're
[34:51] Speaker 2: starting to get really scared because we're like what could
[34:53] Speaker 2: this guy be capable of? Like is he just some
[34:55] Speaker 2: bumbling idiot or could he get violent? And thankfully the
[35:00] Speaker 2: woman in the next room managed to placate him, and
[35:04] Speaker 2: she would you know, she just she just giggled and
[35:07] Speaker 2: like you know, used her charm to calm him down, thankfully.
[35:12] Speaker 2: But then Chelsea and I had to just hide in
[35:14] Speaker 2: that room, which wasn't a room with a proper door.
[35:16] Speaker 2: I just had a curtain around it. We just had
[35:19] Speaker 2: to hide there literally until he left because I said
[35:23] Speaker 2: to her like, do you, like, how do you feel
[35:25] Speaker 2: about going out right now? And She's like, I don't
[35:27] Speaker 2: want to go out there, like I don't want to
[35:29] Speaker 2: see him. So we waited until we knew he was gone,
[35:33] Speaker 2: and then we came out and then I was like, right, okay,
[35:35] Speaker 2: I'm going to bring the car up and I'll take
[35:38] Speaker 2: you home. We'll go and do dinner or something. And
[35:41] Speaker 2: again I was just like, these women are in such
[35:45] Speaker 2: vulnerable situations. There's nobody, there's no security there. There's not
[35:50] Speaker 2: even like a front receptionist or something like you would
[35:53] Speaker 2: see in a legitimate business. And it's seven o'clock, eight
[35:58] Speaker 2: o'clock at night, there's no one around. What would they
[36:01] Speaker 2: have done if that man got violent? Where would they
[36:05] Speaker 2: have gone? Who would they have caught? You know, it's
[36:08] Speaker 2: such a vulnerable situation. And I was scared in that situation.
[36:12] Speaker 2: I didn't know what to do. I was like, could
[36:14] Speaker 2: I could I help in any way if I needed to?
[36:17] Speaker 2: I don't feel confident to do that. So again, it's
[36:21] Speaker 2: just people just have no idea what's happening inside of
[36:23] Speaker 2: these venues. And I just completely reject the notion that,
[36:27] Speaker 2: you know, they're all just there to make their bag
[36:29] Speaker 2: and they know what they're in for, and it's all,
[36:32] Speaker 2: there's no power dynamics at play, and they're they're all
[36:35] Speaker 2: consenting adults and people have just got no idea.
[36:39] Speaker 1: We seek a view of it. It's a lot more
[36:42] Speaker 1: complicated than that. How did Chelsea play out? How did it?
[36:47] Speaker 2: So we stayed in touch for quite a while after that,
[36:49] Speaker 2: and after that she got out of the parlors because
[36:52] Speaker 2: she was here to travel Australia and as part of that,
[36:54] Speaker 2: you've got to do your I think it's like eighty
[36:57] Speaker 2: eight days of farm work to get say an extra
[37:01] Speaker 2: year out the rural area of travel. Now there's a
[37:05] Speaker 2: whole lot that's been exposed in terms of exploitation on farms,
[37:09] Speaker 2: labor exploitation, financial and sexual exploitation. She ended up on
[37:14] Speaker 2: this farm out west of Brisbane, and so we kept
[37:17] Speaker 2: in touch and I put her in contact with a
[37:19] Speaker 2: woman out there who was working with international travelers and
[37:24] Speaker 2: helping them with connections and making sure they weren't being
[37:27] Speaker 2: exploited on farms. So I set that up. But then
[37:30] Speaker 2: one day Chelsea messages me and she's like, so today
[37:33] Speaker 2: I worked from was it like five like let's just
[37:37] Speaker 2: say like five am to five pm picking tomatoes And
[37:41] Speaker 2: she's like and I made thirty six dollars before tax,
[37:46] Speaker 2: and I was like what. And I was like how
[37:49] Speaker 2: many baskets? Like what's going on? And she's like yeah,
[37:53] Speaker 2: so I filled. She say like it took me an
[37:55] Speaker 2: hour to fill one basket. And I'm like what, because
[37:58] Speaker 2: I'm thinking of those like little trendy rat baskets, you know,
[38:01] Speaker 2: you put your little sprieks of rosemary in and your
[38:04] Speaker 2: stuff in the markets. And then she sent me a
[38:06] Speaker 2: photo and it was like this plastic tub like up
[38:09] Speaker 2: to here, like up to the table, filled with tiny
[38:12] Speaker 2: cherry tomatoes and she was like working in like it
[38:16] Speaker 2: was like high thirty degrees or forty degrees. She's out
[38:19] Speaker 2: there all day, twelve hours, makes thirty six bucks. And
[38:23] Speaker 2: I was like that that is exploitation. And I'm like,
[38:27] Speaker 2: is this the same venue that like asked you to
[38:30] Speaker 2: do X y Z the other day? And she's like yeah,
[38:32] Speaker 2: and I'm like, yeah, I would if I were you,
[38:35] Speaker 2: I would have a chat to like am the lady
[38:37] Speaker 2: that I connected you with? Because that's very exploitative. And
[38:43] Speaker 2: I just thought again, like if she was here, like
[38:46] Speaker 2: if we hadn't had that chance meeting and been able
[38:48] Speaker 2: to forger connection and friendship. Who would she have talked
[38:52] Speaker 2: to about this stuff.
[38:53] Speaker 1: And she wouldn't and she wouldn't know, and she's vulnerable.
[38:56] Speaker 2: Well, she wasn't allowed to have a break too. She
[38:58] Speaker 2: wasn't allowed to go to the toilet. Her friends there
[39:02] Speaker 2: asked for a break because she was having a migraine
[39:05] Speaker 2: and thought she was going to faint under the sun.
[39:08] Speaker 2: Picking all day, not allowed to stop and drink water
[39:10] Speaker 2: or go the toilet, and yeah, she got in trouble
[39:13] Speaker 2: for that. So it's happening in so many different industries,
[39:17] Speaker 2: like we've heard of it this the eighty eight day visa.
[39:19] Speaker 2: We've heard stories in the news over the past few
[39:22] Speaker 2: years of people who had their passports taken from them
[39:27] Speaker 2: and told, hey, we can sign off on your passport,
[39:31] Speaker 2: but first you have to you have to do these
[39:34] Speaker 2: sexual acts for me. So that was in an investigation
[39:39] Speaker 2: years ago that I mentioned in my book into what
[39:42] Speaker 2: was happening with these eighty eight day visas. People that
[39:47] Speaker 2: have experienced terrible things in different meat farm like meat factories.
[39:52] Speaker 2: It just happens in so many different areas, and people
[39:54] Speaker 2: either aren't aware. The people that are in these situations,
[39:59] Speaker 2: like Chelsea, they you may not have anyone to speak
[40:01] Speaker 2: to about it, so they don't know what rights they've
[40:05] Speaker 2: got or what rights they can access.
[40:08] Speaker 1: Are you disappointed with the spotlight you put on? Yeah,
[40:11] Speaker 1: we talk about the massage parlors exploitation, now that the
[40:16] Speaker 1: rural areas. Are you disappointed that there's like it's almost
[40:21] Speaker 1: like this should be an expos a. Look what I've exposed,
[40:24] Speaker 1: and they're not. All the law enforcement every bit of
[40:27] Speaker 1: power comes down. But sadly that's not what actually happens,
[40:32] Speaker 1: is it. There's no overly outrage media.
[40:35] Speaker 2: There's seemed like a couple of exposees every couple of years,
[40:40] Speaker 2: Like there was a big one I think it was
[40:41] Speaker 2: sixty Minutes a couple of years ago, and they did
[40:44] Speaker 2: a great exposee on what was happening with sex trafficking
[40:47] Speaker 2: within Australia and within these parlors and motels and things
[40:51] Speaker 2: like that. But it's not really like no one ever
[40:54] Speaker 2: really talks about it very regularly. And it took me
[40:57] Speaker 2: So I was doing those investigations for about eighteen months
[41:00] Speaker 2: between say twenty thirteen and twenty fifteen, and there was
[41:06] Speaker 2: one investigative journalist who said he was interested and it
[41:10] Speaker 2: took months and months and finally set up a meeting
[41:12] Speaker 2: and then he said, oh, so would you go on
[41:14] Speaker 2: camera and talk about these things? And he's like, we'll
[41:18] Speaker 2: give anonymity to.
[41:22] Speaker 1: I always avoid that.
[41:23] Speaker 2: I always fuck it up. He's like, we'll give that
[41:26] Speaker 2: to any of the girls that you can bring forward.
[41:29] Speaker 2: And he's like, but would you speak on camera? And
[41:32] Speaker 2: I said, to be honest, like, I'm a little bit
[41:34] Speaker 2: wary of doing that because this is organized crime. Yes,
[41:38] Speaker 2: and my own mother is very worried about the work
[41:42] Speaker 2: I've been doing, and I've had a lot of people
[41:44] Speaker 2: telling me to be very careful. I don't know whether
[41:48] Speaker 2: I've been filmed on camera going into these venues. The
[41:52] Speaker 2: things I've seen are pretty scary enough that I would
[41:57] Speaker 2: be a bit scared, So like, can't you just blur
[42:01] Speaker 2: me out or darken me out like the girls? And
[42:03] Speaker 2: I was like, ah, nah, I could need you to
[42:05] Speaker 2: be on camera. And I was like, I don't feel
[42:07] Speaker 2: very safe about that, and I don't feel like that's
[42:09] Speaker 2: very fair. I've watched enough documentaries and things to know
[42:13] Speaker 2: that you could easily give me, you know, privacy within this.
[42:17] Speaker 2: And so it didn't go anywhere, and I was really
[42:20] Speaker 2: really upset about that. I reached out to journalists, I
[42:23] Speaker 2: reached out to council, nobody cared, nobody did anything. And
[42:27] Speaker 2: then it wasn't until after my book came out that
[42:31] Speaker 2: I had a couple of editors who said yes to
[42:35] Speaker 2: talking about the things I'd exposed. You know, I wrote
[42:37] Speaker 2: a piece for Mama Mia. I've written a couple of
[42:40] Speaker 2: pieces for news dot com dot au on human trafficking
[42:43] Speaker 2: over the years, but generally, yeah, nobody was interested, and
[42:47] Speaker 2: I just I was like, to this day, I still
[42:50] Speaker 2: don't really know of anybody like I'm sure there might be,
[42:55] Speaker 2: but I don't personally know of anybody who's been investigating
[42:59] Speaker 2: a legal broth and parlors in Australia other than the
[43:02] Speaker 2: journalists who, for example, did that spotlight or that at
[43:06] Speaker 2: that feature a couple of years ago and sixty minutes.
[43:09] Speaker 2: But I knew of nobody at the time. There's nobody
[43:11] Speaker 2: that could really give me much advice, and nobody seemed
[43:15] Speaker 2: to really care about it. So it was very much
[43:17] Speaker 2: what you said, that it's happening everywhere, It's happening in
[43:21] Speaker 2: plain sight, it's not even hidden, and nobody seems to
[43:25] Speaker 2: care and there was a journalist so I spoke to
[43:27] Speaker 2: earlier this year and like, obviously won't say anything that
[43:30] Speaker 2: would identify him more, but he was he cared and
[43:34] Speaker 2: he wrote to me and said, Hey, so I've been
[43:36] Speaker 2: investigating XYZ and I know you haven't had much support
[43:41] Speaker 2: in the past, so I totally understand if you tell
[43:43] Speaker 2: me basically a bugger off if you don't want to
[43:46] Speaker 2: talk to me. And I was like, no, not at all,
[43:47] Speaker 2: Like I'm happy to talk. I'm actually really happy that
[43:50] Speaker 2: you're interested in this. But he was talking to me
[43:53] Speaker 2: about what was happening in that particular town he was
[43:55] Speaker 2: in and the problems and that essentially counsel are saying
[44:00] Speaker 2: they have very little ability to do anything, and since
[44:03] Speaker 2: the decriminalization of the sex industry, which you know, I
[44:06] Speaker 2: won't go into whether that's good or bad or whatever,
[44:10] Speaker 2: that's a whole other conversation, but he was saying since
[44:12] Speaker 2: that police task forces had pretty much disbanded going into
[44:17] Speaker 2: these types of places to check up on them, and
[44:20] Speaker 2: it's now against the law for police to say, masquerade
[44:23] Speaker 2: as a client and go in and sort of see
[44:26] Speaker 2: what's happening. So it's very tricky and there's still. I mean,
[44:33] Speaker 2: if there's anything that can come out of this conversation,
[44:35] Speaker 2: I would love for our state government and federal governments
[44:39] Speaker 2: to work together to create something that works, like something
[44:43] Speaker 2: that helps to stop these businesses from just popping straight
[44:48] Speaker 2: back up when they get closed in a new area,
[44:50] Speaker 2: or just going and doing at that time. What I
[44:53] Speaker 2: was told from the Prostitution Licensing Authority back then was
[44:57] Speaker 2: that they couldasically get a license to open these businesses
[45:02] Speaker 2: within a weekend, and then they'd open it up and
[45:05] Speaker 2: if they got closed down, it'd just pop up again,
[45:08] Speaker 2: same name, new location or different name, just pop back up.
[45:12] Speaker 2: So I don't know what the situations are now, but
[45:16] Speaker 2: I always encourage people pay attention to what's around you.
[45:19] Speaker 2: If you see this, you know, if you suspect sexual
[45:23] Speaker 2: exploitation or human trafficking, like report it via you know,
[45:27] Speaker 2: I think it's the AFP's online Human Trafficking Report. You
[45:31] Speaker 2: can do that anonymously. If you suspect something but you're unsure,
[45:35] Speaker 2: like you can always call police link. As many times
[45:38] Speaker 2: I've seen all different kinds of things and thought it
[45:41] Speaker 2: seems like it might be a little bit suspicious, But
[45:43] Speaker 2: I don't really have enough information yet, but I'm still
[45:46] Speaker 2: going to call it into police Link so that if
[45:49] Speaker 2: other people have called in things, they can create a
[45:52] Speaker 2: case around this. But I would love for our governments
[45:56] Speaker 2: to find the solution to how to stop these parlors
[46:00] Speaker 2: from just getting a weekend license certification opening and just
[46:05] Speaker 2: continuing to reopen every time they get closed down. We
[46:09] Speaker 2: need some way that people can keep an eye on
[46:13] Speaker 2: these places and find out the ones that are legitimate
[46:16] Speaker 2: from the ones that are not, and ensure that we're
[46:19] Speaker 2: not just leaving women in these vulnerable situations where they
[46:23] Speaker 2: could be victims of human trafficking, debt bondage, they could
[46:26] Speaker 2: be being anywhere on the spectrum from being sexually harassed
[46:31] Speaker 2: to being raped. It's just not good enough that they're
[46:35] Speaker 2: everywhere we look. We went on a little family weekend
[46:39] Speaker 2: away recently and we were in an area and went
[46:42] Speaker 2: to a restaurant and there was one of these parlors underneath,
[46:45] Speaker 2: and from things we saw in the restaurant, I was like,
[46:48] Speaker 2: this seems really dodgy, and I actually wonder if the
[46:51] Speaker 2: restaurant and the parlor are connected and there's fraud going
[46:56] Speaker 2: on there, or maybe like funds are slipping through one
[46:59] Speaker 2: from the other, and I looked it up. The phone
[47:02] Speaker 2: number for the parlor immediately brought up the forums. It
[47:05] Speaker 2: brought up the men talking about, yeah, I.
[47:08] Speaker 1: Got this back to your old gang. I got I.
[47:11] Speaker 2: Got money, I got I got this for this much money.
[47:14] Speaker 2: And I was like, it's so obvious. Why I am
[47:19] Speaker 2: I the only one that seems to know.
[47:22] Speaker 1: I'm hearing you, And I'm sitting here and thinking, Okay,
[47:25] Speaker 1: how do you approach it? The legal massage parlors putting
[47:29] Speaker 1: complaints against them because potentially taking their business away. I
[47:32] Speaker 1: suppose the legal brothels would be looking at it too,
[47:35] Speaker 1: that potentially taking the business away. You've got the council
[47:39] Speaker 1: with zoning restrictions, you've got the police, and you know,
[47:43] Speaker 1: I can understand, Well I can't understand because people might
[47:47] Speaker 1: say it's a victimless crime. But as you'll point it out,
[47:51] Speaker 1: maybe the way to put a dent in the industry
[47:55] Speaker 1: or slow it down more so than the legislation is
[47:57] Speaker 1: making people aware that this is not this is not
[48:02] Speaker 1: a victim less situation. These there's some terrible stories, and
[48:06] Speaker 1: maybe telling the stories of the women that have been
[48:09] Speaker 1: caught up in that might make people that are going
[48:12] Speaker 1: to use those services, think twice about it and go,
[48:14] Speaker 1: well hold it no, And why the thing.
[48:17] Speaker 2: Is the men are like. As long as the like,
[48:20] Speaker 2: the supply is always going to be there to meet
[48:22] Speaker 2: the demand. And unfortunately, unless we bring in legislation like
[48:29] Speaker 2: say the Nordic model that it started in places like
[48:33] Speaker 2: Sweden and whatsing. So the Nordic model is a part
[48:37] Speaker 2: to criminalization, part criminalization. So the people who are working,
[48:41] Speaker 2: whether it's male or female or transgender, they are not criminalized.
[48:46] Speaker 2: But the men I'm going to say men, because it's
[48:50] Speaker 2: going to be extremely rare for a woman to be
[48:52] Speaker 2: there to purchase someone, the purchaser is criminalized.
[48:56] Speaker 1: Well that would that would that would change the dynamics.
[48:59] Speaker 2: Yes, so then they're not criminalizing the person that's in
[49:03] Speaker 2: that situation. And they also provide them with other options
[49:07] Speaker 2: should they wish to access them, So assistance with child
[49:12] Speaker 2: you know, like child mining, child assistance, child care assistance,
[49:17] Speaker 2: all the areas that keep women trapped, which is poverty,
[49:21] Speaker 2: assistance with children. A lack of any other viable option
[49:25] Speaker 2: is really the reason why so many women stay in
[49:28] Speaker 2: the industry because they don't have other viable choices and
[49:31] Speaker 2: if you are choosing between homelessness or able to feed
[49:35] Speaker 2: your children, then you're going to do whatever that takes.
[49:38] Speaker 2: So there's a lot of there are a lot of
[49:40] Speaker 2: people that don't want like, they don't like the Nordic model,
[49:43] Speaker 2: but that's the only one of the only solutions I see.
[49:46] Speaker 1: Well, what's the argument against the Nordic model.
[49:49] Speaker 2: I haven't really seen any good ones. It's just like
[49:52] Speaker 2: it's just like, oh, let them do what they want,
[49:55] Speaker 2: and we shouldn't be criminalizing men for this. And you know,
[49:58] Speaker 2: there may be people within sex industry who are worried
[50:01] Speaker 2: about that because they're like, well, then you're taking away
[50:03] Speaker 2: my clientele, right, I'm not going to be able to
[50:05] Speaker 2: provide the service. But what I like about the Nordic
[50:09] Speaker 2: model is that they're not just taking They're not just
[50:11] Speaker 2: criminalizing the purchases and taking away the demand by you know,
[50:16] Speaker 2: finding them or they face jail time. But they're also
[50:19] Speaker 2: providing the supports that most often women are lacking that
[50:23] Speaker 2: would allow them to make a full body choice as
[50:26] Speaker 2: to whether they leave the sex industry. If they want
[50:29] Speaker 2: to stay, that's fine, but they're like, if you would
[50:32] Speaker 2: like to do something else, we will support you with
[50:35] Speaker 2: what you need to try and fulfill that. And that's
[50:38] Speaker 2: one of the only things that I would see working here,
[50:42] Speaker 2: because it does disincentivize men like I've read. I've read
[50:46] Speaker 2: the quotes from men who've been arrested, and now, this
[50:48] Speaker 2: is so unfair, and you know, like, please, my wife's
[50:52] Speaker 2: going to find out. You didn't care about that until
[50:55] Speaker 2: you got caught.
[50:57] Speaker 1: A pretty failed argument. If they're trying to this is
[51:00] Speaker 1: so unfair. Look, I think we're never going to stamp
[51:04] Speaker 1: out the sex industry, so that's the starting point. And
[51:07] Speaker 1: you know, they say it's the world's all this professional.
[51:09] Speaker 1: I don't know if that's the case, but you hear.
[51:10] Speaker 2: That, and I should just say quickly that there are
[51:12] Speaker 2: lots of people within the sex industry who are upset
[51:15] Speaker 2: about these illegal parlors and they don't want to see
[51:18] Speaker 2: people being trafficked and they do want to see a
[51:20] Speaker 2: change there.
[51:21] Speaker 1: Well, I think if we accept there will be a
[51:24] Speaker 1: sex industry, the regulations can put in the protection so
[51:28] Speaker 1: people aren't exploited. And you know, the world should be
[51:31] Speaker 1: about free choice, but regulations might be able to protect that.
[51:36] Speaker 1: If people are choosing to work in this industry, they're
[51:39] Speaker 1: protected in every one of their rights, their safety, their welfare,
[51:44] Speaker 1: the pay everything, so they're not exploited. It's a complex,
[51:50] Speaker 1: complex issue. You don't take on the small things there. No.
[51:54] Speaker 2: I had that said to me by an old bush,
[51:56] Speaker 2: was like, why do you always pick the serious topics
[51:59] Speaker 2: because interesting, Sorry, I don't want to do something on fashion.
[52:04] Speaker 1: But look, I think just the fact that you're raising it,
[52:07] Speaker 1: I think that's that's important because it's not talked about,
[52:11] Speaker 1: and it's sort of when you point out and I'm thinking, oh, yeah,
[52:15] Speaker 1: that flashing red light, or you drive through there and
[52:18] Speaker 1: you discover that stop the set of traffic lights and
[52:20] Speaker 1: look looked up. But yeah, it's I hope people listening
[52:24] Speaker 1: to it understand that. And I think the important thing
[52:27] Speaker 1: is it's not a victim less crime, and there's people
[52:29] Speaker 1: whose lives have been they're being exploited in the most
[52:32] Speaker 1: terrible ways. And you know the old supply and demand.
[52:36] Speaker 1: If there's no demand, that drives up the supply. I'm
[52:41] Speaker 1: looking at some other things that you're involved in, survivor advocacy,
[52:45] Speaker 1: so domestic and sexual violence. What sort of work you're
[52:49] Speaker 1: doing in that regards.
[52:51] Speaker 2: Yeah, so I've worked, I've done a lot of different
[52:55] Speaker 2: things over the last ten years, but I've worked as
[52:57] Speaker 2: a book coach, helping a lot of female survivors of
[53:01] Speaker 2: different traumas to write their stories and to share that
[53:04] Speaker 2: with the world and break the silence. And then I
[53:07] Speaker 2: also found it could I.
[53:09] Speaker 1: Just don't mean to interrupt, but do you think that
[53:11] Speaker 1: that helps them write their stories and talk about it
[53:14] Speaker 1: like that's something that's worthwhile doing. Yeah.
[53:18] Speaker 2: I've seen the most tremendous breakthroughs through the power of writing.
[53:23] Speaker 2: And I've seen people who have carried shame and trauma
[53:27] Speaker 2: for so long that you know, maybe they've chipped away
[53:29] Speaker 2: at it with their psychologists. And I will always be,
[53:33] Speaker 2: you know, a huge supporter of getting you know, good
[53:35] Speaker 2: psychological support. But they've worked through a certain amount of that,
[53:40] Speaker 2: but it's still living within them. That shame is still there.
[53:43] Speaker 2: And it's not until we go through the process, whether
[53:47] Speaker 2: they're writing a full book or whether it's women in
[53:49] Speaker 2: workshops that I've run for different domestic and sexual violence
[53:52] Speaker 2: services where I'm helping them to begin the process of
[53:55] Speaker 2: writing their story. It's not until they do that that
[53:58] Speaker 2: they actually go wow, well, I didn't realize how far
[54:01] Speaker 2: I'd come like I didn't realize that I'm not still here,
[54:05] Speaker 2: Like I'm actually here and maybe I want to be
[54:07] Speaker 2: up here, but I'm not where I used to be.
[54:10] Speaker 2: And I've seen, Yeah, women just have the most and men,
[54:13] Speaker 2: like I've worked with a lot of men as well,
[54:15] Speaker 2: male survivors of different traumas, and I've seen all of
[54:18] Speaker 2: them have the most amazing breakthroughs. And so I did
[54:21] Speaker 2: that for pretty solidly for about eight years and then
[54:25] Speaker 2: decided to have a break in twenty twenty four because
[54:27] Speaker 2: I was carrying a lot of vicarious trauma from all
[54:30] Speaker 2: of the stories that I've been carrying for everybody else.
[54:33] Speaker 2: I surprise, yes, surprise, surprise. And then the last couple
[54:37] Speaker 2: of years, I've been doing mostly speaking and so speaking
[54:41] Speaker 2: in schools and workplaces and running my Red Flags one
[54:45] Speaker 2: oh one program, which really focuses on the most common
[54:49] Speaker 2: warning signs of emotional abuse.
[54:52] Speaker 1: Tell us about that, the fact that you're in the
[54:54] Speaker 1: schools talking about that, because what I saw of it,
[54:58] Speaker 1: I think that's a great idea.
[55:00] Speaker 2: Yeah, So we focus on the three most common red
[55:03] Speaker 2: flags of course of control and emotional abuse, because if
[55:08] Speaker 2: we can learn how to spot those as early as possible,
[55:11] Speaker 2: if I think back to my twenty year old version
[55:14] Speaker 2: of myself who was in that relationship with that guy,
[55:16] Speaker 2: and you know, I want people to spot those warning
[55:20] Speaker 2: signs that he exhibited before they get to their rock
[55:23] Speaker 2: bottom like I did. Like, I don't want them to
[55:25] Speaker 2: have to experience the things I did, so learning to
[55:28] Speaker 2: spot them and then equally as important, learning how to
[55:31] Speaker 2: set boundaries. So what does it look like, what does
[55:34] Speaker 2: it sound like? What does it feel like to set
[55:36] Speaker 2: bound So.
[55:36] Speaker 1: If you're a young girl and the young bloke comes
[55:40] Speaker 1: up and says, I love you, You're my soul mate.
[55:43] Speaker 1: I want to be with you forever, and if you
[55:45] Speaker 1: left me, I'd just die. Yeah, a couple of red
[55:48] Speaker 1: flags in.
[55:48] Speaker 2: There, and it's like, dude, you mind want to go
[55:51] Speaker 2: speak to a counselor about that?
[55:52] Speaker 1: Yeah? Walk away?
[55:56] Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I've got to fix him. Which, like, to
[55:58] Speaker 2: be honest, a lot of us, if we're very empathetic people,
[56:01] Speaker 2: we want to help others.
[56:03] Speaker 1: Right.
[56:03] Speaker 2: It doesn't mean you have to be like go get
[56:06] Speaker 2: like like go away, go get your own help. It's like, well,
[56:10] Speaker 2: I can't help you with that, but you should go
[56:12] Speaker 2: talk to someone about that.
[56:13] Speaker 1: If you got what you're delivering with the red flags
[56:16] Speaker 1: one oh one in the schools. If you got delivered
[56:19] Speaker 1: that that made you sort of recalibrate and rethink your choices.
[56:23] Speaker 2: At the most, I've gone, whoa, that's what my dad does.
[56:27] Speaker 2: Like my dad gas lights. My dad, you know, has
[56:30] Speaker 2: narcissistic tendencies. The things he says and does are actually
[56:34] Speaker 2: emotional abuse. I didn't know that. I didn't think it
[56:38] Speaker 2: was that bad. And the whole reason I ended up
[56:40] Speaker 2: with in all of those really traumatic situations after he
[56:44] Speaker 2: died was because I'd spent so many years saying, oh,
[56:47] Speaker 2: I'll never choose someone like my dad, like I'll never
[56:50] Speaker 2: choose someone that's physically abusive and you know, does these
[56:54] Speaker 2: really scary things. But I wasn't looking for all of
[56:59] Speaker 2: the wasn't I didn't know what to look for when
[57:01] Speaker 2: it came to all of the emotional abuse. I didn't
[57:04] Speaker 2: know what gas lighting was. So then, yeah, I second
[57:07] Speaker 2: guessed myself all the time instead of listening to my
[57:09] Speaker 2: own intuition. And mostly I was just afraid to ever
[57:13] Speaker 2: say no because I was terrified of hurting people's feelings
[57:17] Speaker 2: and being seen as the bad guy. So it'd spent
[57:19] Speaker 2: so many years being belittled by my dad and thinking
[57:22] Speaker 2: like I'm a terrible, worthless person. So I only ever
[57:25] Speaker 2: wanted to uplift and make others feel good. So that
[57:30] Speaker 2: led to that. And in schools, I have to say
[57:33] Speaker 2: I've had a lot of young men, like a lot
[57:35] Speaker 2: of boys come up to me really positive questions, saying, hey,
[57:39] Speaker 2: this is happening. Would this actually be coercive control or
[57:43] Speaker 2: is this just bullying? Like what is this? And I
[57:48] Speaker 2: had a beautiful young man came to me one day
[57:49] Speaker 2: and share about his mum's story and what was going
[57:53] Speaker 2: on with her, And I said to him, you're carrying
[57:55] Speaker 2: a lot, like it's really beautiful that you care so much,
[57:58] Speaker 2: but that's a lot for you to car and if
[58:01] Speaker 2: you can, you know, if you can give your mum
[58:04] Speaker 2: that nudge to get support, that's great, but you you
[58:07] Speaker 2: really deserve to have support too, like is there anyone
[58:11] Speaker 2: you can talk to? Or have you talked to the
[58:13] Speaker 2: school counselor there's a lot of young men with really
[58:16] Speaker 2: good questions. You always get that odd ball group where
[58:20] Speaker 2: there's you know, the guys at their chest puffed out
[58:22] Speaker 2: and there got their arms crossed in their laughing. I'm
[58:26] Speaker 2: sitting now, Harry.
[58:27] Speaker 1: Sorry, but yeah, well I was going to say, like
[58:33] Speaker 1: I can imagine girls you're getting a lot from it.
[58:35] Speaker 1: But the fact that the young boys, a teenage boys
[58:38] Speaker 1: are also buying into it, is there warning signs And
[58:42] Speaker 1: just sort of a flipper is a warning sign for
[58:44] Speaker 1: boys can they be manipulated by the girls.
[58:47] Speaker 2: So in my program, I actually share a story from
[58:50] Speaker 2: a young man in the UK called Alex Skiel, and
[58:54] Speaker 2: he is a survivor of really severe coercive control. His
[58:57] Speaker 2: female partner actually did go to jail for a number
[59:00] Speaker 2: of years. But like you know, just like the stories
[59:04] Speaker 2: of so many women, he started the same like it
[59:06] Speaker 2: started with really small things like her trying to control
[59:09] Speaker 2: the clothes he wore, telling him how she liked him
[59:11] Speaker 2: to do his hair. And I said to somebody recently, look,
[59:15] Speaker 2: it's it's fine for everyone to have their personal tastes.
[59:17] Speaker 2: And you might have a partner that's like, hey, I
[59:19] Speaker 2: actually really love when your hair you do your hair
[59:21] Speaker 2: like this, or your hair looks like this.
[59:22] Speaker 1: So I have to keep bringing up here. It makes
[59:24] Speaker 1: me sad, but go.
[59:25] Speaker 2: Off, or we could get you like some nice wigs,
[59:27] Speaker 2: you know, I promise you laugh So I'm like, there's
[59:31] Speaker 2: a difference between someone that's just saying, hey, like I
[59:35] Speaker 2: really love it when you wear blue because it makes
[59:36] Speaker 2: your eyes pop or something like that. So I'm giving
[59:39] Speaker 2: you a compliment now because you've got a blue shirt on.
[59:40] Speaker 1: Do you take my hair? Why? I sit? At least
[59:42] Speaker 1: you like my shirt?
[59:43] Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, I'm back on track. So I'm like, there's
[59:46] Speaker 2: a difference between that and then trying to control the
[59:50] Speaker 2: way that you do everything, control what exactly what you wear,
[59:53] Speaker 2: who you spend time with. They've got to know there's
[59:57] Speaker 2: a difference between caring and wanting to know when you're
[59:59] Speaker 2: part and it gets safely to wherever they're going, and
[1:00:02] Speaker 2: constantly sending messages where are you haven't heard from your answer?
[1:00:06] Speaker 2: What are you doing? I need you home?
[1:00:07] Speaker 1: Yeah, and that that can work whether it's a boy
[1:00:10] Speaker 1: the girl or girl the boy or whatever, that sort
[1:00:13] Speaker 1: of controlling.
[1:00:14] Speaker 2: And I share those stories like Alex's of what he
[1:00:18] Speaker 2: went through and how it escalated and by the time
[1:00:20] Speaker 2: they had children, just like so many women, he felt trapped.
[1:00:24] Speaker 2: He didn't want to leave his kids in that situation,
[1:00:26] Speaker 2: so he stayed. You know, he ended up being really,
[1:00:29] Speaker 2: really badly physically attacked, quite lucky to be alive. But
[1:00:34] Speaker 2: when I share that story, you know, there's always those
[1:00:36] Speaker 2: those boys that had their arms crossed, and they're a
[1:00:39] Speaker 2: bit defensive because they're probably thinking, oh, that never happened
[1:00:41] Speaker 2: to me, or what a sissy or something, you know,
[1:00:44] Speaker 2: like what a car call whatever they say now, but
[1:00:49] Speaker 2: it still resonates that cows control.
[1:00:53] Speaker 1: I've seen it where yeah, you see the blake that's
[1:00:56] Speaker 1: all of a sudden concerned. I better it calls his
[1:00:59] Speaker 1: up where I am and all that so it can
[1:01:02] Speaker 1: work back.
[1:01:02] Speaker 2: It's seeing that in my own life, like someone close
[1:01:05] Speaker 2: to me who had a complete breakdown and was having
[1:01:08] Speaker 2: panic attacks by the end of that relationship because of
[1:01:12] Speaker 2: how much his female partner controlled him and he was
[1:01:15] Speaker 2: just a shell, like he couldn't even speak to her
[1:01:20] Speaker 2: face to face when she was going off at him,
[1:01:22] Speaker 2: like he'd have to go to another room and text
[1:01:24] Speaker 2: because he was like having a panic attack and she'd
[1:01:27] Speaker 2: isolated him from all his friends.
[1:01:28] Speaker 1: That's a common thing, is the isolation.
[1:01:31] Speaker 2: That's a warning like, oh, they're changing you like, and
[1:01:36] Speaker 2: I don't like who you are when you're with them.
[1:01:37] Speaker 2: And fair enough, if it's an accurate comment, But in
[1:01:42] Speaker 2: knowing that particular person, it wasn't.
[1:01:44] Speaker 1: So okay, you've got that happening at the school's Project Karma.
[1:01:48] Speaker 1: What's not what's happening at the school Project Karma. Yeah.
[1:01:52] Speaker 2: So Project Karma is another anti trafficking organization not for
[1:01:57] Speaker 2: profit that I have supported for a number of years,
[1:02:00] Speaker 2: and it's run by Glenn Hully. He's an ex Victorian
[1:02:03] Speaker 2: police officer and private investigator and I came across his
[1:02:08] Speaker 2: work maybe around twenty sixteen when he reached out to
[1:02:11] Speaker 2: share the work he was doing overseas as well as
[1:02:14] Speaker 2: in Australia. But what I like about the model they
[1:02:17] Speaker 2: have is that it's centered around empowering the communities they're in.
[1:02:22] Speaker 2: So a lot of the criticisms of anti trafficking organizations
[1:02:26] Speaker 2: is that they can have a bit of that white
[1:02:28] Speaker 2: saber complex and come in and just say, oh, we
[1:02:30] Speaker 2: know how to do this, do it this way. But
[1:02:33] Speaker 2: the Project Karma Sentinel model is about empowering. Like let's
[1:02:36] Speaker 2: just say it was in one of the areas in Indonesia,
[1:02:40] Speaker 2: they would be empowering the local police, the local communities,
[1:02:44] Speaker 2: and I think maybe government as well. But like all
[1:02:46] Speaker 2: of those local communities are empowered to know what the
[1:02:50] Speaker 2: warning signs are if a child is being harmed or exploited,
[1:02:54] Speaker 2: and how does the community come together to firstly rescue
[1:02:58] Speaker 2: and get that child out of that situation, but also
[1:03:01] Speaker 2: get justice for that victim with getting justice against the perpetrator.
[1:03:06] Speaker 2: And so I've been like a huge supporter of their
[1:03:08] Speaker 2: work and they've created like they've just had amazing success
[1:03:12] Speaker 2: in different countries overseas. They do like they do work
[1:03:15] Speaker 2: here too. And then ethos is really about, you know,
[1:03:18] Speaker 2: providing support and getting justice for victims no matter where
[1:03:22] Speaker 2: they are or how old they are, and trying to
[1:03:25] Speaker 2: get justice against perpetrators. And they've Glenn's done a really
[1:03:29] Speaker 2: great job of helping police with certain like say Australian
[1:03:34] Speaker 2: perpetrators who've gone over the seas to try to evade
[1:03:38] Speaker 2: justice and actually finding.
[1:03:40] Speaker 1: Where they are and share that the Glenn Project to Glenn,
[1:03:43] Speaker 1: Yeaharma and Global you're also global ambassador human trafficking ambassador work.
[1:03:50] Speaker 1: We've investigators. Is that another part of part of what
[1:03:54] Speaker 1: you do?
[1:03:55] Speaker 2: So in the past, yeah, I did when I was
[1:03:57] Speaker 2: in Southeast Asia. I think one of the stories I
[1:04:00] Speaker 2: shared earlier was there's a friend of mine who was
[1:04:03] Speaker 2: living there for a long time doing undercover stuff. So
[1:04:06] Speaker 2: I mean shout out to him and all of the
[1:04:08] Speaker 2: amazing people that do this day in and day out,
[1:04:10] Speaker 2: because I only spent you know, a fraction of time
[1:04:13] Speaker 2: there learning about what was happening, and we wrote a
[1:04:16] Speaker 2: few articles together. But they're the people that are there
[1:04:20] Speaker 2: day in and day out trying to make a difference.
[1:04:22] Speaker 1: I think we think human trafficking and slavery is that
[1:04:26] Speaker 1: that's something from a bygone era, But it's very much
[1:04:29] Speaker 1: not is it.
[1:04:30] Speaker 2: No, it's just.
[1:04:31] Speaker 1: Maybe in a different form, but the reality of it
[1:04:34] Speaker 1: that's still still the same.
[1:04:35] Speaker 2: And we hear about it in you know, with the
[1:04:37] Speaker 2: advancements of tech, it's morphing and changing. But you know,
[1:04:41] Speaker 2: we see it even in situations like with OnlyFans or
[1:04:45] Speaker 2: online sex work. There's you know, sexual exploitation happens there too.
[1:04:49] Speaker 2: There's a certain perceptionist and again I'm not saying it's
[1:04:52] Speaker 2: the whole industry or everybody's experience, but we don't know
[1:04:56] Speaker 2: when we see somebody somebody's public persona, we don't know
[1:05:00] Speaker 2: it's really going on behind the scenes, whether there was
[1:05:03] Speaker 2: coersion there. Until you know somebody comes out and shares
[1:05:06] Speaker 2: later on. But that's just to say that we see
[1:05:09] Speaker 2: it happening everywhere. In Brisbane. A couple of years ago
[1:05:12] Speaker 2: there was a case that came out of women that
[1:05:15] Speaker 2: were rescued from a house in the south side of Brisbane.
[1:05:19] Speaker 2: I think it was like around Carringdale area. It was
[1:05:22] Speaker 2: quite a well to do neighborhood and the neighbors were horrified.
[1:05:25] Speaker 2: They're like, these women have been enslaved here, like we
[1:05:29] Speaker 2: didn't know.
[1:05:30] Speaker 1: You know. It's just I suppose a message if you,
[1:05:34] Speaker 1: if you've got concerns that something's going on, reach out
[1:05:36] Speaker 1: to authorities and even if they don't react on that,
[1:05:39] Speaker 1: it's documented now and then more people, more people reach out.
[1:05:44] Speaker 1: How's life for you now, it's good? Yeah.
[1:05:47] Speaker 2: Yeah. We just moved to Canber this year, so spending
[1:05:50] Speaker 2: a lot of time in nature and yeah, working on
[1:05:54] Speaker 2: almost finished a new book. And yeah, we'll see what
[1:05:58] Speaker 2: We'll see what adventures come up.
[1:06:00] Speaker 1: I'm sure something will come up. And I just wanted
[1:06:04] Speaker 1: to finish off with from this book. I've got the
[1:06:07] Speaker 1: heading here tools and tips for thriving after trauma. But
[1:06:11] Speaker 1: there's simple things. But I think we'll just quickly mention them, gratitude, journaling,
[1:06:16] Speaker 1: digital detoxing, discovering true self, setting strong and unapologetic boundaries.
[1:06:21] Speaker 1: There are four points you talked about overcoming trauma. Are
[1:06:26] Speaker 1: they things that have worked for you?
[1:06:28] Speaker 2: Yeah? I mean I could always do better at the
[1:06:30] Speaker 2: digital detoxing, but yeah, all of those things, I mean,
[1:06:34] Speaker 2: and particularly journaling, Like a lot of people have said, oh,
[1:06:37] Speaker 2: but I'm not a writer, and I say, it actually
[1:06:39] Speaker 2: has got nothing to do with that. You could even
[1:06:41] Speaker 2: use the notepad on your phone if you wanted to,
[1:06:43] Speaker 2: But it's just about actually actually just brain jumping everything
[1:06:47] Speaker 2: that's going on in your head. And there's nights where
[1:06:50] Speaker 2: I'll do that just so I can sleep because I've
[1:06:52] Speaker 2: got too much swirling around. But there's a lot more
[1:06:56] Speaker 2: that I'll be going into a lot more deeply in
[1:06:59] Speaker 2: the new book, that Finishing Off, which really centers around
[1:07:02] Speaker 2: like just give like a little little tidbit, really centers
[1:07:05] Speaker 2: around the thirteen key steps people can take to really,
[1:07:10] Speaker 2: you know, live an out loud and apologetic life and
[1:07:13] Speaker 2: to heal and speak up and share their story with
[1:07:17] Speaker 2: the world in a way that's safe makes an impact,
[1:07:21] Speaker 2: but it is also safe because that's a really big
[1:07:24] Speaker 2: thing for a lot of advocates is that they have
[1:07:25] Speaker 2: that passion to share, but they may not have done
[1:07:28] Speaker 2: the deep inner work to be firstly in a position
[1:07:32] Speaker 2: to share, and then secondly they might not know how
[1:07:35] Speaker 2: to safely share their story. So you know, that can
[1:07:38] Speaker 2: lead to situations with you know, I hate to say it,
[1:07:41] Speaker 2: but with some journalists or with podcasts where you might
[1:07:44] Speaker 2: get asked something that you're not comfortable being asked, or
[1:07:48] Speaker 2: it might be framed in a way that's not necessarily respectful.
[1:07:51] Speaker 2: And it's really helpful if you know and you have
[1:07:54] Speaker 2: a guide, which is why I'm writing this book for
[1:07:57] Speaker 2: how to safely share your story, How to put like
[1:08:00] Speaker 2: professional but firm boundaries in place before you share your
[1:08:03] Speaker 2: story publicly, so that you can do it from a
[1:08:05] Speaker 2: place of empowerment, not feeling pressured to share certain things.
[1:08:09] Speaker 1: Or I think that's a good thing because we all
[1:08:13] Speaker 1: have a platform now that you can get what was
[1:08:17] Speaker 1: thirty years ago, it was completely changed. Now everyone can
[1:08:20] Speaker 1: get on a big platform and get opinions out and
[1:08:24] Speaker 1: share stories. But unless you've done it or gone down
[1:08:29] Speaker 1: that path, you have no idea. Like I'm sure you've
[1:08:33] Speaker 1: had negative things posted about you and the first time
[1:08:36] Speaker 1: I did when I got into the media. I didn't
[1:08:38] Speaker 1: care when I was in the police because people were
[1:08:41] Speaker 1: meant to attack the place sort of thing. But when
[1:08:43] Speaker 1: you're working in the media, and yeah, that's terrible. And
[1:08:47] Speaker 1: know some of the criticism was possibly right, but it
[1:08:50] Speaker 1: still hurts. Yeah, yeah, yeah, Well, I've enjoyed our conversation.
[1:08:57] Speaker 1: Thank you so much for taking the time to come
[1:08:59] Speaker 1: into day. I hope all the best for the future
[1:09:01] Speaker 1: and maybe we get you back to talk about your
[1:09:03] Speaker 1: next book when it comes out.
[1:09:04] Speaker 2: That sounds great. Thank you, Gary, I really appreciate it.
[1:09:07] Speaker 1: Cheers.

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