# Unmasking the West Perth Rapist: Luke McCulloch Pt.1

An episode of [I Catch Killers with Gary Jubelin](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1506667049), 8 Aug 2026, 1 h 04 min.

Audio: https://p.podderapp.com/2544644999/traffic.omny.fm/d/clips/2fb3740d-3436-44af-8cc0-a91900716aa5/5bc8c2ed-b718-4f44-beb3-ac2a005246cc/f8168584-ca23-45b5-9a4c-b49f002c90d4/audio.mp3?utm_source=Podcast&in_playlist=786928c3-10c1-4cef-a7bf-ac2a005246d0

What does it take to hunt a predator in the dark? In this episode of I Catch Killers, Gary Jubelin sits down with Luke McCulloch, a former police diver and officer whose career was defined by the motto: Profundus, Obscurus, Suridus - Deep, Dark, and Dirty. Luke recounts the chilling moment a routine traffic stop for a motorbike with no headlights led to a major breakthrough in the hunt for the notorious West Perth Rapist. From his early days as the youngest sworn officer in Western Australia to the gruelling selection process of the police dive squad, Luke shares the reality of life on the thin blue line. Dive into the psychological and physical challenges of policing in the "Wild West," the importance of de-escalation, and the split-second decisions that can lead to solving a high-pressure case. In this episode, we discuss: -The traffic stop that caught Steven Michael Adams (The West Perth rapist). -Luke's experience patrolling the remote Pilbara and the unique challenges of country policing. -The intense, hypothermia-inducing training required to become a police diver. -What it’s really like searching for evidence and bodies in pitch-black water using nothing but touch. Subscribe to our new Youtube channel. Follow I Catch Killers: Instagram: @icatchkillers Tiktok: @icatchkillerspodcast Facebook: @icatchkillers See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

## Transcript

[0:01] Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.
[0:05] Speaker 1: Detective sy aside of life the average person is never
[0:08] Speaker 1: exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop.
[0:11] Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.
[0:14] Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a
[0:16] Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,
[0:20] Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.
[0:23] Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories
[0:26] Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw
[0:28] Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some
[0:31] Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because
[0:34] Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.
[0:38] Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.
[0:46] Speaker 1: There's nothing glamorous about being a police diver. No crystal
[0:50] Speaker 1: clear water, no coral roofs, no visibility, just darkness, cold
[0:55] Speaker 1: and waterways so grim that most people wouldn't want to
[0:58] Speaker 1: go near them. Lane get in and when they go
[1:02] Speaker 1: under there not looking for treasure. They're searching for items
[1:05] Speaker 1: relating to crimes. Dead bodies, firearms, drugs, often with nothing
[1:10] Speaker 1: but their bare hands. In this episode of I Catch Killers,
[1:13] Speaker 1: I speak with Luke McCulloch, who has spent fifteen years
[1:17] Speaker 1: in the Western Australian Police. He patrolled the remote Pilbra
[1:20] Speaker 1: as a country cop, He helped crack the West Perth
[1:23] Speaker 1: rapist case and spent nearly a decade diving into places
[1:28] Speaker 1: no one else would go, searching for the things no
[1:31] Speaker 1: one else wanted to find. Today, we're going to take
[1:34] Speaker 1: a deep dive, and I mean that literally, into the
[1:36] Speaker 1: world of a police diver. Luke McCulloch, Welcome to I
[1:41] Speaker 1: Catch Killers.
[1:43] Speaker 2: Hey Gary, how are you, Matte? Thanks for having me well.
[1:45] Speaker 1: I always enjoy speaking to police or former police. It's
[1:49] Speaker 1: always nice to speak to someone that's been in the
[1:51] Speaker 1: same business and industry.
[1:53] Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, me too, me too, thank you.
[1:55] Speaker 1: But I never had an ambition of being a police star.
[2:00] Speaker 1: And I saw a lot of police divers during my time.
[2:04] Speaker 1: And you're not exactly snorkeling around the Great Barrier roof
[2:10] Speaker 1: the areas that you've got a search and where we
[2:13] Speaker 1: send you in. What made you want to be a diver?
[2:17] Speaker 2: Yeah, you're definitely right there, mate. It's not the lovely,
[2:21] Speaker 2: rottenest island diving, especially from over here in the West
[2:25] Speaker 2: that you used to. I didn't actually ever intend on
[2:30] Speaker 2: being a police diver when I first joined the police force.
[2:32] Speaker 2: I did policing for seven years before I jumped into that,
[2:36] Speaker 2: and it was mainly just based on the fact that
[2:38] Speaker 2: I didn't want to do general duties anymore. I'd sort
[2:41] Speaker 2: of appreciated that lifestyle and that style of work for
[2:44] Speaker 2: about seven years, as I said, but then I wanted
[2:46] Speaker 2: to specialize in something, so that came up. And yeah,
[2:50] Speaker 2: through Marten the Ring.
[2:50] Speaker 1: Okay, So it wasn't naively you think this is beautiful
[2:54] Speaker 1: waterways and all that. It'll be nice swimming around rotnear
[2:57] Speaker 1: Styland on the beautiful summer summer's day or down at
[3:01] Speaker 1: Claremont at the beaches.
[3:02] Speaker 2: Yeah, no, I knew what I was getting into. That
[3:04] Speaker 2: was for sure.
[3:06] Speaker 1: Well, your book, I've been reading your book, Tales of
[3:08] Speaker 1: a Diver, Profondess obscurius sur Now, for those that don't
[3:13] Speaker 1: know what I just said, including myself, that's Latin, but
[3:17] Speaker 1: translated from Latin that's deep, dark and dirty. So the
[3:20] Speaker 1: book Tales of a Diver, deep, dark and dirty.
[3:24] Speaker 2: Yeah, that was our that was our motto in the
[3:27] Speaker 2: in the dives quad at the time. So yeah, profund
[3:29] Speaker 2: US obscurist. So did this deep, dark and dirty?
[3:32] Speaker 1: And that pretty well sums up the type of places
[3:35] Speaker 1: you go and what you do under.
[3:37] Speaker 2: The surface pretty much. Mate. Yeah, sewers, swamps. We do
[3:41] Speaker 2: get some nice occasional diving out in the ocean where
[3:44] Speaker 2: we can see a bit of stuff, but more often
[3:46] Speaker 2: than not, Yeah, it's touch and feel searching around in
[3:49] Speaker 2: pretty black water.
[3:51] Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, I've seen you guys go into the sewer
[3:53] Speaker 1: and I was glad that it's glad that's you guys,
[3:56] Speaker 1: not not us. What's what's a clean up procedure after
[3:59] Speaker 1: you dive in the.
[4:02] Speaker 2: Look? I'll be honest, I'm not sure what it's like
[4:04] Speaker 2: over there in New South But here we get out.
[4:07] Speaker 2: There's a lovely garden hose on the back of the
[4:09] Speaker 2: dive truck and one of us sprays the other one
[4:11] Speaker 2: with that and we're good to go.
[4:13] Speaker 1: Okay, you're a little bit rough and ready, but very good. Okay,
[4:18] Speaker 1: before we and I want to have it sounds like
[4:20] Speaker 1: a pun here deep dive into your life as a
[4:23] Speaker 1: police diver, But talk about your police career before that.
[4:27] Speaker 1: When did you when did you join the police? Why
[4:30] Speaker 1: did you join the police, And tell us about your
[4:32] Speaker 1: early days.
[4:33] Speaker 2: Yeah, so grew up here in Perth, born and bred.
[4:37] Speaker 2: I I was sort of a bit lost in high
[4:41] Speaker 2: school whereby I didn't really know what I wanted to do.
[4:44] Speaker 2: I was initially gearing up for university, going to become
[4:49] Speaker 2: a physiotherapist, and funnily enough, my little brother actually became
[4:52] Speaker 2: that started working out that study wasn't for me. Didn't
[4:55] Speaker 2: really want to commit to the university sort of lifestyle,
[4:59] Speaker 2: and and I also knew that I was a bit
[5:02] Speaker 2: two hands on to be working indoors all the time,
[5:05] Speaker 2: so it didn't end up being for me. I subsequently
[5:09] Speaker 2: decided by about year ten or eleven, I was going
[5:12] Speaker 2: to go into carpentry, Yeah, because I figured use my
[5:16] Speaker 2: hands was a good, good idea. But then my dad,
[5:19] Speaker 2: on the other hand, was saying, well, now you've gone
[5:21] Speaker 2: the full opposite and now you're going to be outdoors
[5:22] Speaker 2: all the time, and you don't want to be doing
[5:24] Speaker 2: back breaking stuff and get to the age of sort
[5:26] Speaker 2: of mid thirties and hate your life in that regard.
[5:29] Speaker 2: So I was sort of a bit lost in year twelve,
[5:33] Speaker 2: didn't really know what to do. My dad is actually
[5:35] Speaker 2: a police officer, still is so he's just ticked off
[5:38] Speaker 2: forty years the other day, which is a good effort
[5:40] Speaker 2: for him.
[5:40] Speaker 1: Wow.
[5:41] Speaker 2: And my mum was a police officer at the time
[5:42] Speaker 2: as well, so it sort of felt natural to go
[5:46] Speaker 2: into that. However, they definitely had a different mindset in
[5:50] Speaker 2: that regard. When I pitched the idea because I saw
[5:53] Speaker 2: a CA advert on the TV one night, thought oh,
[5:56] Speaker 2: I'll just do that. That sounds smart because then I
[5:58] Speaker 2: get a bit of both worlds. I get to do
[6:00] Speaker 2: some office based stuff and I'm a bit hands on.
[6:02] Speaker 2: And immediately as soon as I told him, I said, no,
[6:04] Speaker 2: that's the worst idea in the world. You shouldn't be
[6:06] Speaker 2: doing that. So what as a young teenager do when
[6:09] Speaker 2: the parents say no, I don't like that idea, They
[6:12] Speaker 2: go head first at it. So I checked the application
[6:15] Speaker 2: in They eventually came around. I think they half thought
[6:18] Speaker 2: I'd put in for it and eventually get to a
[6:20] Speaker 2: point where I thought it wasn't for me. Yeah. I
[6:23] Speaker 2: was a bit of a pushover as a little kid.
[6:25] Speaker 2: Wasn't the biggest toughest thing in the world, so I
[6:27] Speaker 2: think they thought I was a bit too soft for it,
[6:29] Speaker 2: and I probably was. Let's face it, but definitely grew
[6:32] Speaker 2: up when I got in there. So I actually joined
[6:33] Speaker 2: at seventeen as a kid out, and the cadet program
[6:38] Speaker 2: at the time that they were running was a two
[6:40] Speaker 2: year program because to become a sworn police officer here
[6:42] Speaker 2: you had to be nineteen. Little did I know that
[6:45] Speaker 2: year they actually changed the age app to eighteen as
[6:49] Speaker 2: a sworn officer. Yeah, so as soon as I'd finished
[6:52] Speaker 2: on my cadet book, I could put my hat in
[6:54] Speaker 2: the ring, and I did, and I became a police
[6:56] Speaker 2: officer at eighteen, and it was something like eighteen in
[6:58] Speaker 2: two months, the youngest ever a sworn police officer in WA.
[7:01] Speaker 1: At that stage, you're, well, you think you know things
[7:05] Speaker 1: at that age, but you're a baby baby, aren't you.
[7:07] Speaker 2: One hundred percent?
[7:08] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[7:09] Speaker 2: The only thing I had had gone for me at
[7:11] Speaker 2: the time was my size. I was six or six
[7:13] Speaker 2: at that stage, already coming out of high school, so
[7:16] Speaker 2: I was able to rely on that. However, if I
[7:19] Speaker 2: went to a domestic and told someone that they're not
[7:21] Speaker 2: allowed to do something to their wife or do something
[7:25] Speaker 2: in a domestic household, they just look at me and go,
[7:28] Speaker 2: who the hell are you to tell me? So, yeah,
[7:31] Speaker 2: I struggled a little bit with that. As I said,
[7:33] Speaker 2: it grew me up quickly, so I don't regret it.
[7:36] Speaker 2: But do I recommend doing it at eighteen, No, definitely not.
[7:40] Speaker 2: I reckon, go go get some experience.
[7:42] Speaker 1: I think it's an easier path for you if you
[7:45] Speaker 1: get that little bit of experience, if you're out working
[7:47] Speaker 1: in the world. Going straight from school straight into the police,
[7:51] Speaker 1: it's confronting and to have that power power. Tell me like,
[7:57] Speaker 1: I've had a lot of X cops on them. I
[8:00] Speaker 1: think they've had parents that have been police. But having
[8:05] Speaker 1: your mother and father in police, what was it like
[8:07] Speaker 1: growing up as a kid with police and parents.
[8:10] Speaker 2: I can't really remember mum being a cop, to be honest,
[8:13] Speaker 2: because I think I can't remember the exact dage, but
[8:16] Speaker 2: I think I was about three or four when she
[8:18] Speaker 2: actually resigned. It wasn't a you know, the police force
[8:21] Speaker 2: wasn't too privy with females having kids at that stage
[8:25] Speaker 2: and young families, so it wasn't made easy for her,
[8:28] Speaker 2: to my understanding, so she pulled the pin on that
[8:31] Speaker 2: went into her own businesses afterwards and did her own thing.
[8:35] Speaker 2: But having dad like dad wasn't a hard ass or
[8:39] Speaker 2: anything like that, like the stereotypical sort of version that
[8:42] Speaker 2: you would think. I definitely had a lot of respect
[8:44] Speaker 2: for him, but I actually had respect for him in
[8:46] Speaker 2: other ways. He was my footy coach growing up, one
[8:49] Speaker 2: of the toughest men that I'll ever ever know, so
[8:52] Speaker 2: I actually had a bit more respect and fear for
[8:56] Speaker 2: him from things outside the police force. He was actually
[8:59] Speaker 2: he's actually still. He's a forensic police officer, so fingerprints
[9:02] Speaker 2: is his specialty, right, So it's not exactly, you know,
[9:05] Speaker 2: shooting and running after crooks. So yeah, it was a
[9:09] Speaker 2: bit different I suppose to what others would have gone through.
[9:12] Speaker 1: Okay, so seventeen you went through a cadet ship, which
[9:16] Speaker 1: is we had it in New South Wales and I
[9:18] Speaker 1: think there's even talk of bringing it back. And for
[9:21] Speaker 1: people that don't understand what that is, that you're at
[9:24] Speaker 1: an age where you're too young to join the police
[9:27] Speaker 1: and they allow you to do the study and work
[9:32] Speaker 1: but not go out on the streets until a certain age.
[9:35] Speaker 1: So it's not a bad system, is it, Because I
[9:38] Speaker 1: think people in that you get a sense whether this
[9:41] Speaker 1: is a life for you.
[9:43] Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely. It's kind of like a like try before
[9:45] Speaker 2: you buy. Yeah, it's how I sort of tried to
[9:47] Speaker 2: describe it. We're the same. It's in the state, it's
[9:50] Speaker 2: come in, and it's left at times when they haven't
[9:52] Speaker 2: needed it. I from a policing point of view, like
[9:55] Speaker 2: an organization, it's a great way to capture people before
[9:59] Speaker 2: they go off and do Universe go go to trade
[10:01] Speaker 2: and we lose that. So it's getting him interested straight away.
[10:05] Speaker 2: We had the benefit of going out, so you did
[10:08] Speaker 2: all administration stuff back of the station, but every so
[10:11] Speaker 2: often the idea was that you got taken out of
[10:13] Speaker 2: patrol and you were just chucked in the back seat
[10:15] Speaker 2: essentially with a mag light and a radio to appreciate
[10:18] Speaker 2: what it actually looks like to go on patrol.
[10:19] Speaker 1: And told not to touch anything.
[10:21] Speaker 2: Yeah.
[10:24] Speaker 1: Okay, so you're eighteen and two months did you say,
[10:27] Speaker 1: and there you are graduating from the academy, and did
[10:30] Speaker 1: you do it you're training at the current academy.
[10:34] Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, yeah, I think it. Junela had been up
[10:38] Speaker 2: and running for tenish fifteen ish years before I jumped
[10:41] Speaker 2: into it, So no, I didn't. I didn't get Maylands,
[10:43] Speaker 2: which was our original one.
[10:45] Speaker 1: I've got to say it's one of the most impressive
[10:47] Speaker 1: police academies I've ever seen, and I love that lake
[10:49] Speaker 1: in the middle of it everything else. I was over
[10:52] Speaker 1: there doing some lectures and staying there and I thought, wow,
[10:56] Speaker 1: this is the gap.
[10:57] Speaker 2: Yeah, and even there around their scenario village is second
[11:00] Speaker 2: to none, you know, to be able to go through
[11:03] Speaker 2: it literally a village that's been made and they have
[11:05] Speaker 2: paid actors go through and you're going through different scenarios
[11:08] Speaker 2: along the way. That was the learning from that was priceless. Yeah.
[11:12] Speaker 1: Okay, so you have six foot six and you've got
[11:17] Speaker 1: a limited life experience. They put you in the uniform,
[11:20] Speaker 1: send you out in the street. What's the worst mistake
[11:22] Speaker 1: you made in your early early days you're not too
[11:29] Speaker 1: embarrassed to talk about.
[11:30] Speaker 2: Look, probably not a massive stuff up, but I definitely
[11:33] Speaker 2: think the most embarrassing thing at the time was I
[11:36] Speaker 2: was still in my bloody Pea plates, So I had
[11:39] Speaker 2: to drive a police car with Pea plates up at
[11:41] Speaker 2: the time.
[11:41] Speaker 1: Yeah, that wouldn't attract attention.
[11:43] Speaker 2: Yeah, I wasn't that engaged in lights and sirens. So
[11:45] Speaker 2: if we were doing patrols and a priority job came in,
[11:48] Speaker 2: it was pull over on the side of the road,
[11:49] Speaker 2: switched with my partner and then I had to keep
[11:51] Speaker 2: coming in the passenger.
[11:52] Speaker 1: Seat take the pea plates off. Yeah.
[11:54] Speaker 2: To be honest, for the first first year or so,
[11:56] Speaker 2: I just actually preferred to not drive because it was
[11:58] Speaker 2: less embarrassing.
[12:00] Speaker 1: Understandable what thereas were you working in? Like the geographical
[12:04] Speaker 1: what you're in Perth?
[12:06] Speaker 2: Yeah, so western suburbs generally. I initially got stationed at Wembley.
[12:10] Speaker 2: I went over to Subiaco that then subsequently amalgamated with Wembley.
[12:16] Speaker 2: And then my last probationary stint was actually at a
[12:19] Speaker 2: central Metro traffic unit and by no means no hard
[12:23] Speaker 2: feelings against traffic coppers, but that just wasn't for me,
[12:26] Speaker 2: And luckily I had a decent boss there who recognized
[12:30] Speaker 2: that it wasn't for me. And I remember him bringing
[12:33] Speaker 2: me into his office towards the end of my time
[12:35] Speaker 2: when I could have gotten off probation, and he said, McCullough,
[12:38] Speaker 2: get in here. So I walked in. I thought I
[12:40] Speaker 2: was going to get in trouble, and he said, look
[12:42] Speaker 2: between you and me, mate, you're not going to be
[12:44] Speaker 2: a traffic copper and you never will. So how about
[12:46] Speaker 2: I just signed your off probation, you get out of
[12:48] Speaker 2: here and you move on to your next station. And
[12:50] Speaker 2: I said, sounds good to me. Mate, shook hands and
[12:52] Speaker 2: part of ways.
[12:53] Speaker 1: And no disrespect because I still drive and I love
[12:56] Speaker 1: highway patrol, but they're a different brood, and good on them.
[13:00] Speaker 1: The work they do is important. We can't I argue
[13:03] Speaker 1: with that. But yeah, you're either the traffic highway patrol
[13:06] Speaker 1: type police or you're not. And some of them are
[13:09] Speaker 1: very good at it, and you can see why they're
[13:12] Speaker 1: in that in that role, very efficient.
[13:15] Speaker 2: I constantly say I love them because they do something
[13:17] Speaker 2: that I don't want to do.
[13:18] Speaker 1: Yeah, well it's a good way of looking at it.
[13:20] Speaker 1: And we know the road road toll they do make
[13:23] Speaker 1: a difference, so we definitely need them. So let's not
[13:27] Speaker 1: let's not attack highway patrol because we do drive and
[13:29] Speaker 1: we respect them. Okay, So in the areas areas that
[13:34] Speaker 1: you work, traffic traffic wasn't for you, the type of
[13:38] Speaker 1: crimes that you were dealing with or the type of work.
[13:40] Speaker 1: What was your day to day work. And that's around
[13:43] Speaker 1: Subiaca Oval, the station that you're talking about, Yeah.
[13:46] Speaker 2: That was the that small station that then amalgamated with Wembley,
[13:50] Speaker 2: so Subiaco actually became part of Wembley's patch as well.
[13:54] Speaker 2: But typical Western suburbs sort of crime general Berg is
[14:00] Speaker 2: going in and around nicer, affluent sort of areas. Our
[14:03] Speaker 2: western suburbs is obviously very different to your western suburbs
[14:06] Speaker 2: with the difference of the East Coast and the West Coast,
[14:08] Speaker 2: your sort of nightlife areas. So Leederville was in our parts.
[14:12] Speaker 2: Subiaco Claremont had a couple of nightclubs as well. I mean,
[14:18] Speaker 2: the most sort of stress I got from the public
[14:21] Speaker 2: was going out of control gatherings and some kid telling
[14:24] Speaker 2: me that his dad was a lawyer and was going
[14:26] Speaker 2: to get me in trouble. Not hard work, awesome crew
[14:30] Speaker 2: we had at the time, loved doing what we did,
[14:32] Speaker 2: and we did it well. And I just I had
[14:35] Speaker 2: a ball. Like I said, I'm eighteen nineteen years of
[14:38] Speaker 2: age at this stage. You got a uniform on, I
[14:40] Speaker 2: felt bulletproof and I was just having fun. It was awesome.
[14:44] Speaker 1: What were the good mentors that you had. Did you
[14:46] Speaker 1: have some good mentors, because I think that's crucial at
[14:49] Speaker 1: the early stages of your policing career if you can
[14:51] Speaker 1: lock into someone that can guide you through. Did you
[14:55] Speaker 1: have some people that you respected then taught you a lot.
[14:58] Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely so, and different aspects of who I would
[15:03] Speaker 2: sort of look up to as well. So I definitely
[15:05] Speaker 2: had that old school sergeant that was teflon. Nothing could
[15:09] Speaker 2: stick to him and you just thought, how does he
[15:10] Speaker 2: get away with everything? But he very much taught me,
[15:13] Speaker 2: you know, like don't take everything so seriously. You've got
[15:16] Speaker 2: to have some fun at the same time, because otherwise
[15:18] Speaker 2: this job will take too much from you. But I
[15:20] Speaker 2: also I was really lucky to have a couple of
[15:23] Speaker 2: younger fellas who were a little bit older than me,
[15:26] Speaker 2: but still respectively looking back now they were quite young.
[15:29] Speaker 2: They just had really good level heads on them and
[15:31] Speaker 2: they didn't want to go into things, you know, half
[15:33] Speaker 2: cocked or lazy. They wanted to do it properly. And
[15:37] Speaker 2: they were young fit fellas as well, like one particularly
[15:41] Speaker 2: went on to go to tig so he particularly was
[15:44] Speaker 2: a really good role model to go all right, this
[15:46] Speaker 2: is the right way to do it, and also take
[15:48] Speaker 2: care of yourself, always expect the most of yourself and
[15:51] Speaker 2: hold yourself to a high standard as well, because it
[15:54] Speaker 2: can be very very easy as a young copper to
[15:56] Speaker 2: you know, slide in behind someone who's a nice, lazy copper,
[16:00] Speaker 2: as jaded as anything. And I've seen a time and
[16:01] Speaker 2: time again where they just then that they start acting like,
[16:05] Speaker 2: well the copper starts acting like they're seven years into
[16:07] Speaker 2: the job or ten years into the job, when they've
[16:10] Speaker 2: done ten months and they've got that bad attitude straight away.
[16:13] Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a shame. I think it's crucial who junior
[16:16] Speaker 1: police are partnered up with and working with in those
[16:20] Speaker 1: early stages, because you can get these disgruntled police that's
[16:24] Speaker 1: steering them in the wrong direction. The other thing that
[16:27] Speaker 1: you've got to look out for not being caught up
[16:29] Speaker 1: in And it's easy to say, but it's also easy
[16:32] Speaker 1: to fall into the trap. Get the excitement of the adrenaline,
[16:36] Speaker 1: Like when you've got a couple of young blakes and
[16:37] Speaker 1: you say you're working with people that were more senior
[16:40] Speaker 1: to you, they might have two years experience, and you
[16:43] Speaker 1: and them are out on the car at two o'clock
[16:46] Speaker 1: in the morning and chasing the adrenaline and the excitement
[16:49] Speaker 1: that can bring you unstuck as well.
[16:51] Speaker 2: Oh definitely. Yeah, you know you've got guys that are
[16:53] Speaker 2: going around looking for looking for fights, and they're trying
[16:56] Speaker 2: to annoy people and get a mad egged up just
[16:59] Speaker 2: so they can get into a with someone. And I
[17:02] Speaker 2: suppose that was a benefit to coming into the police force.
[17:05] Speaker 2: Not a hot headed young fella. I don't get me wrong.
[17:09] Speaker 2: I wanted to have a ball and have fun and
[17:11] Speaker 2: appreciate what it was for. But I didn't like fighting.
[17:14] Speaker 2: I still to this day, I like the fact that
[17:18] Speaker 2: I'd drawn my firearm once. In my whole career, I
[17:21] Speaker 2: never tasted anyone. I never pep sprayed anyone. I never
[17:23] Speaker 2: had to batten anyone. And I put that down to
[17:26] Speaker 2: being able to talk to people at the same time
[17:28] Speaker 2: and not having to worry about going hands on because
[17:32] Speaker 2: I could actually speak to them and de escalate the
[17:33] Speaker 2: situation from that. Used to roll my feathers up a
[17:37] Speaker 2: little bit, to be honest, when someone would come into
[17:38] Speaker 2: the team and they would go out and they'd start
[17:40] Speaker 2: annoying crooks or people within the nightclub industry just to
[17:44] Speaker 2: get a bite out of someone, and I'm like, what
[17:46] Speaker 2: are you doing. It's just not worth it, mate.
[17:48] Speaker 1: Not worth it. And what you talk about is a
[17:51] Speaker 1: skill that's yeah, it needs some people just have it
[17:55] Speaker 1: in them. Other people can be taught, but some people
[17:58] Speaker 1: just miss the point entirely. But being able to de
[18:01] Speaker 1: escalate a situation is crucial to good policing. And I
[18:06] Speaker 1: used to laugh at you'd have some police in the
[18:09] Speaker 1: station that we're always assaulted, and you think, hold, what's
[18:13] Speaker 1: common common in this? Have you stopped to take a
[18:18] Speaker 1: step back. The majority of us haven't been assaulted. You
[18:21] Speaker 1: have had ten assaults in the twelve months, in the
[18:23] Speaker 1: past twelve months. Is it perhaps the way you're speaking
[18:26] Speaker 1: to people that might might lead that way?
[18:30] Speaker 2: Exactly?
[18:30] Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, And look, Perth I spent as we were
[18:33] Speaker 1: saying the other day when we're having a chat, I
[18:35] Speaker 1: lived over in Perth for a while and it would
[18:38] Speaker 1: have been around that time, like two thousand and seven
[18:41] Speaker 1: and those times. So I spent a lot of time
[18:43] Speaker 1: over in Perth, and I call it the wild West
[18:46] Speaker 1: in some aspects, like there there was no disrespect to
[18:51] Speaker 1: w a love love the people, but there was a wildness,
[18:55] Speaker 1: there was a rawness to it, and you could see
[18:58] Speaker 1: how things could escalate very quickly, like in pubs, and
[19:02] Speaker 1: that people were willing to fight and if you backed
[19:04] Speaker 1: them into a corner, they were going to fight.
[19:07] Speaker 2: One hundred percent and like that. Yeah, there was definitely
[19:10] Speaker 2: this sort of viable feeling in the air that, yeah,
[19:12] Speaker 2: you young fellas at the time were trying to make
[19:15] Speaker 2: a name for themselves. Northbridge was definitely the one that
[19:18] Speaker 2: would kick off. I as an eighteen year old in
[19:22] Speaker 2: the police force there and then, like, I never experienced
[19:25] Speaker 2: Northbridge from a civilian point of view because of what
[19:29] Speaker 2: I was doing at the time, but it completely ruined
[19:32] Speaker 2: the idea of Northbridge ever for me because I just
[19:34] Speaker 2: saw it from a different lights what all mother mates
[19:36] Speaker 2: were doing at football and from school and stuff. But yeah,
[19:40] Speaker 2: the amount of times we got caught into Northbridge to
[19:42] Speaker 2: back up because there was just massive, massive brawls going on, Yeah,
[19:46] Speaker 2: it was a.
[19:47] Speaker 1: Bit well, that's the sense of it. I know north
[19:51] Speaker 1: Bridge well and I know what you're talking about. It
[19:53] Speaker 1: felt like a powder kegn. The mining industry was very
[19:57] Speaker 1: big at that time, so you've got a lot of
[19:58] Speaker 1: people that were fly in, fly out workers around Perth
[20:03] Speaker 1: that were cashed up, ridiculously cashed up at the time,
[20:06] Speaker 1: working hardcore for ten days and then having ten days
[20:10] Speaker 1: off or figures like that. So they were coming into town.
[20:14] Speaker 1: They have a good time.
[20:15] Speaker 2: Yeah, blown awesome steam and spend some cash.
[20:17] Speaker 1: And a good time they had when you were there.
[20:21] Speaker 1: There was one I was watching the show Australian Crime
[20:26] Speaker 1: Investigations and there was a job that I think it
[20:31] Speaker 1: was a couple of years into your career, when you're
[20:33] Speaker 1: still working in the Metro area, that you pulled a
[20:36] Speaker 1: motorbike over that turned into a fairly big investigation. Do
[20:41] Speaker 1: you want to tell us through that story, because that's
[20:44] Speaker 1: the type of thing you look for as a young cop,
[20:46] Speaker 1: isn't it. You want to be the person that gets
[20:48] Speaker 1: the information that leads to solving a significant crime. Tell
[20:52] Speaker 1: us about your involvement in that matter.
[20:54] Speaker 2: Yeah. So we we we're just doing general patrols in
[20:58] Speaker 2: the Wembley area and we're going down a street called
[21:01] Speaker 2: Cambridge Street Main Drag within Wembley, very very late in
[21:06] Speaker 2: the night, if not early morning, and I was with
[21:09] Speaker 2: my sergeant at the time. He was driving and I
[21:11] Speaker 2: had another probationer in the back when we saw a
[21:14] Speaker 2: motorbike on the left hand side the road heading west
[21:17] Speaker 2: with no headlights on. So at the time it was
[21:19] Speaker 2: just going to be a standard traffic stop. A bit
[21:22] Speaker 2: weird that the lights weren't on. That sort of just
[21:24] Speaker 2: hinted straight away to someone trying to hide and not
[21:28] Speaker 2: want to be seen. Obviously, when we stopped and put
[21:31] Speaker 2: the lights on, he stalled, so I got out of
[21:34] Speaker 2: the car when I had a chat with him, and
[21:35] Speaker 2: as I was talking to him, he was trying to
[21:36] Speaker 2: kick the bike in, and it was obvious that he
[21:39] Speaker 2: couldn't get at the start at the time, and the
[21:40] Speaker 2: bike was having malfunctions, so that sort of eased me
[21:44] Speaker 2: a bit at that point, and he was talking to me,
[21:47] Speaker 2: he didn't seem too evasive at that stage. He was
[21:50] Speaker 2: telling me the bike was having troubles, and to be honest,
[21:54] Speaker 2: it was probably just going to be a quick name check,
[21:56] Speaker 2: and I was actually probably going to offer him and
[21:58] Speaker 2: go like, may look if your bike his stuff, give
[22:00] Speaker 2: you a lift and or will follow your home or
[22:02] Speaker 2: something like that. I'm so glad now that that didn't happen. Obviously,
[22:08] Speaker 2: he wasn't getting his drivers license when I was asking
[22:10] Speaker 2: for it, and all of a sudden, the bike kicked
[22:12] Speaker 2: into life and he just took off, took off quicker
[22:15] Speaker 2: than I was able to run after him, but I
[22:17] Speaker 2: still wasn't screaming down the street. So I ran back
[22:19] Speaker 2: to the car and we chased him, and he subsequently
[22:22] Speaker 2: crashed into a bus stop. Tried to go up one
[22:25] Speaker 2: of those box curbs, wheel bent and he went headfirst
[22:29] Speaker 2: into this bus stop. We got out, he stood up,
[22:31] Speaker 2: tried to run off again. I chased him down, caught him,
[22:34] Speaker 2: and when we started searching him, because at this stage
[22:38] Speaker 2: we were saying why'd you run, what's going on? Why
[22:41] Speaker 2: have you been evasive? Now he was stating that the
[22:45] Speaker 2: registration on the bike was out. Still didn't make sense
[22:48] Speaker 2: to run from the police.
[22:49] Speaker 1: Run from the cops for that's one hundred dollars.
[22:51] Speaker 2: A ticket or something like that. So we were searching
[22:54] Speaker 2: him and the weird thing that I found on him
[22:57] Speaker 2: was it was an epipenn style object. I knew what
[23:01] Speaker 2: an EpiPen was. I knew it wasn't an EpiPen, but
[23:03] Speaker 2: that's the best way I could describe it. And a
[23:05] Speaker 2: couple other weird things. He had some gloves on in
[23:08] Speaker 2: his bag and a couple other weird items, but that
[23:11] Speaker 2: was the main one. So because you obviously had a
[23:14] Speaker 2: police crash, I tackled him pretty hard when I caught
[23:17] Speaker 2: him as well, we took him to hospital to make
[23:18] Speaker 2: sure he was all checked out. And when I got
[23:21] Speaker 2: to hospital, I thought, I'll show him this. I'll show
[23:23] Speaker 2: the doctor this EpiPen and just ask what it is.
[23:25] Speaker 2: Because when I asked him, he said it was for
[23:26] Speaker 2: blood pressure. The doctor subsequently said, I hope you've had
[23:29] Speaker 2: gloves on the whole time, because that's a it's used
[23:33] Speaker 2: by males for erect ol dysfunction. Right, essentially, put it
[23:37] Speaker 2: to your I don't know if I'm allowed to say
[23:39] Speaker 2: it your gooch.
[23:40] Speaker 1: And yeah, we can call it a gooch, or you
[23:44] Speaker 1: can call it something.
[23:44] Speaker 2: Else, yep, yep, whatever you want to call it.
[23:47] Speaker 1: And you do speak funny from wa yep.
[23:53] Speaker 2: And you inject it and it gives you an instant erection.
[23:57] Speaker 2: So at that stage now it's starting to get a
[23:59] Speaker 2: little bit weirder. So due to the offenses that he'd committed,
[24:04] Speaker 2: we were actually allowed to and it only had just
[24:07] Speaker 2: recently come in with the CIA Act, the Criminal Investigation Act,
[24:10] Speaker 2: where we were allowed to take identifying particulars off him,
[24:13] Speaker 2: DNA fingerprints, photos and all that for the offenses that
[24:16] Speaker 2: he'd committed. So we did that just because we could.
[24:20] Speaker 2: It was a new power that we had did a
[24:23] Speaker 2: significant what we call field report. Field report for the
[24:26] Speaker 2: listeners is more like a we couldn't couldn't pin you
[24:30] Speaker 2: to anything, but we're going to pin you to this
[24:32] Speaker 2: location at this time, wearing this so that if something
[24:35] Speaker 2: else came out over the next couple of days to
[24:36] Speaker 2: say that it was a weird person on a bike
[24:38] Speaker 2: driving around, you're a suspect. So did that, kicked on
[24:43] Speaker 2: with the rest of the night, finished seven am in
[24:46] Speaker 2: the morning, went home, went to bed. I got a
[24:48] Speaker 2: call at about ten or eleven am in the morning
[24:50] Speaker 2: and it was one of the detectives at Sex Offenders
[24:53] Speaker 2: Management Unit and my uncle actually at the time was
[24:56] Speaker 2: working with him, and he had called me and texted
[24:59] Speaker 2: me as well saying, hey, my boss is about to
[25:01] Speaker 2: call you about the traffic stop last night. Yeah, I know,
[25:04] Speaker 2: it's a bit strange. So got a call from him
[25:06] Speaker 2: and he said that this bike now matched the description
[25:09] Speaker 2: of a bike that they'd been looking for for a
[25:11] Speaker 2: couple of months now, but they hadn't hadn't been aut
[25:13] Speaker 2: of to trackdown or solve It turned out that that
[25:16] Speaker 2: was that was their guy, So they went and did
[25:18] Speaker 2: the warrant on his house. DNA profile became positive for
[25:23] Speaker 2: the DNA found at the scene, and when they did
[25:27] Speaker 2: the warrant on the on the guy's house, they had
[25:30] Speaker 2: also worked out that I think he was it was
[25:32] Speaker 2: a customs or AFP or both, but at the time
[25:35] Speaker 2: he was customs, I think it was. And he'd had
[25:38] Speaker 2: a lot of those those arrival cards when you come
[25:41] Speaker 2: back into the country you write down all your details,
[25:43] Speaker 2: your name next to kin, email address address, and they
[25:48] Speaker 2: all had notes on them for female descriptions, you know, blonde,
[25:52] Speaker 2: blue eyes, tall. He kept a heap of them essentially,
[25:57] Speaker 2: which was extra creepy. But yeah, he ended up subsequent
[26:00] Speaker 2: getting getting put in the bin for I think it
[26:02] Speaker 2: was six or seven years. I think it was.
[26:04] Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, I've read some media reports of West Perth
[26:09] Speaker 1: rapist operation per Steel and he's named Stephen Michael Adams.
[26:14] Speaker 1: But that break it down in a couple of things.
[26:19] Speaker 1: That's very rewarding when you're just doing your job and
[26:21] Speaker 1: you come across something like that, because and that's where yeah,
[26:25] Speaker 1: a lot ninety nine percent of the time doing that,
[26:29] Speaker 1: it wouldn't pay dividends, but it's that small percentage where
[26:32] Speaker 1: it does the fact that you've taken taken the time.
[26:35] Speaker 1: It's in the early hours of the morning. You're tied.
[26:38] Speaker 1: It's easy. Oh okay, car, your bike's not working properly,
[26:43] Speaker 1: and just dismiss it. But they're little things that you
[26:45] Speaker 1: can do in uniform that I know from a major
[26:48] Speaker 1: crime perspective are crucial, like when we're investigating homicides, those
[26:53] Speaker 1: details that the uniform police have put down for a stop,
[26:56] Speaker 1: just like that, and looking at him as an offender too,
[27:01] Speaker 1: that's quite worrying, or not quite worrying, it's very worrying.
[27:04] Speaker 1: And we have over here and you know, across the
[27:09] Speaker 1: place a lot of serial rapists and they start, they
[27:11] Speaker 1: get away with one, and the crimes were quite chilling
[27:14] Speaker 1: that he was committing. So full credit to you for
[27:18] Speaker 1: buying into that and doing your job.
[27:20] Speaker 2: Yeah, no, thank you. It was a really good feeling
[27:22] Speaker 2: to know what we had just stumbled across because I
[27:26] Speaker 2: won't I won't put it down till we were hunting
[27:28] Speaker 2: him or anything like. To be honest, we got the
[27:31] Speaker 2: called lookout to be kept fors. You know, you get
[27:33] Speaker 2: three or four of them a day. You go into
[27:35] Speaker 2: the going to the office, you look at them, three
[27:37] Speaker 2: or four come in and it's the latest person doing
[27:39] Speaker 2: bergs or armed hold ups or whatnot, and you remember
[27:42] Speaker 2: that face or that car to look out for for
[27:44] Speaker 2: that shift. But the next day there's another three or
[27:46] Speaker 2: four and you're looking out for that person. So the
[27:48] Speaker 2: motorbike probably came up on one and months ago. I
[27:52] Speaker 2: had seen it, but I wasn't looking for it. It
[27:54] Speaker 2: was just sheer dumb luck. But as you said, the
[27:57] Speaker 2: doing it correctly and doing your job correctly does pay
[28:00] Speaker 2: dividends later on. And that was again just because a
[28:02] Speaker 2: good sergeant at the time. That was the sergeant I
[28:04] Speaker 2: was talking about. They'd like to have a bit of fun,
[28:06] Speaker 2: but he also did his job properly. And the other
[28:08] Speaker 2: probation in the back as well wasn't wasn't you know,
[28:11] Speaker 2: half with either. He wanted to do the job properly
[28:13] Speaker 2: and get it all squared away. So they, yeah, they
[28:16] Speaker 2: have full credit as well.
[28:18] Speaker 1: And there those little things that sort of call it
[28:20] Speaker 1: gut instinct. I don't like the use that were too
[28:23] Speaker 1: much or rely on it too much, but it's just
[28:25] Speaker 1: something doesn't feel right about this person, and you identify
[28:29] Speaker 1: that the things that the way he's acting and different things.
[28:32] Speaker 1: So that's sort of Okay, let's look a little bit
[28:35] Speaker 1: a little bit closer.
[28:36] Speaker 2: Yeah, and like police, you'd know as well as I do. Gary,
[28:39] Speaker 2: you know, we're very good at reading people. Well, the
[28:42] Speaker 2: longer you're in the police force, you you get better
[28:44] Speaker 2: at it. It's it's not too often now that I
[28:46] Speaker 2: don't read and judge someone and I'm incorrect. Like my
[28:50] Speaker 2: wife constantly has a giggle about it. And you know,
[28:52] Speaker 2: we'll be sitting in a restaurant and someone will come
[28:54] Speaker 2: in and I'll go, that guy is a prick, And
[28:57] Speaker 2: twenty minutes later they're the ones standing up having an
[28:59] Speaker 2: argument with the waitress or something like that. You know,
[29:02] Speaker 2: we're good at it. We've honed it in. And yeah,
[29:06] Speaker 2: that was one day where it definitely was the spidy
[29:09] Speaker 2: sensors were tickling, so to say it worked.
[29:12] Speaker 1: The other benefit you get working in a local area
[29:15] Speaker 1: in those stations, the longer you stay there, you start
[29:20] Speaker 1: to not only you know the community, you know where
[29:22] Speaker 1: something doesn't quite feel right within the community too. That's
[29:25] Speaker 1: a benefit that you get from it.
[29:27] Speaker 2: Yeah, when it sticks out some different.
[29:30] Speaker 1: Hey, when you join the police so young, how did
[29:34] Speaker 1: the perception of the public and your friends and family,
[29:36] Speaker 1: because I know once you become a police and it's
[29:40] Speaker 1: a trap that you fall into, that that becomes your
[29:44] Speaker 1: identity and people, oh, you're a cop. You're a cop.
[29:46] Speaker 1: Like you gather a party as an eighteen or nine
[29:48] Speaker 1: eren year old and people will be pointing out, you're
[29:51] Speaker 1: a cop. And how did you deal with that? Did
[29:55] Speaker 1: you notice the difference that once you join the police,
[29:57] Speaker 1: that's what you were marked as the cop wherever you went.
[30:00] Speaker 2: Yeah, A bit of an interesting one in terms of like,
[30:04] Speaker 2: definitely my community. I suppose the biggest thing, the biggest
[30:09] Speaker 2: part of my community that didn't really affect me but
[30:12] Speaker 2: was the biggest change was definitely my footy club. Standard
[30:16] Speaker 2: footay club full of a bunch of boys. There definitely wasn't
[30:18] Speaker 2: female football teams at that stage. Playing in my local club,
[30:23] Speaker 2: I was quite lucky in the sense of though when
[30:25] Speaker 2: I played. When I was in high school, I played
[30:27] Speaker 2: all basketball and in my junior years I played footy.
[30:30] Speaker 2: But when I left the high school, I went straight
[30:33] Speaker 2: back to footy. So I actually entered into the club
[30:36] Speaker 2: again as a copper. So it wasn't I wasn't a
[30:39] Speaker 2: police officer before I joined, and then they had to
[30:41] Speaker 2: deal with that they knew me straight away from the
[30:43] Speaker 2: outset as a copper. I think I held myself in
[30:47] Speaker 2: good regard and I was a good professional kid, and
[30:50] Speaker 2: I I didn't make too many enemies or anything. So
[30:53] Speaker 2: I generally got a lot of respect out of my
[30:55] Speaker 2: mates from that, and they quickly tuned in to go
[30:59] Speaker 2: right cool, there's certain things we don't do around Macha
[31:02] Speaker 2: or you know, there's certain things we don't say, and
[31:05] Speaker 2: let's just respect what he does for a job. There
[31:07] Speaker 2: was one or two times it got a bit sticky
[31:09] Speaker 2: if I saw them out and about, you know, in clubs,
[31:12] Speaker 2: and yeah, they were intoxicat I had one mate take
[31:15] Speaker 2: my torch off my belt once and my partner subsequently
[31:19] Speaker 2: went went ballistic at him, and I was like, mate, yeah,
[31:22] Speaker 2: there's certain lives you don't cross, because if you'd taken
[31:23] Speaker 2: something else, obviously that's a lot worse. So he quickly
[31:27] Speaker 2: learned that one. But no, I didn't get any agree
[31:30] Speaker 2: for it, and I'm very thankful that those mates who
[31:34] Speaker 2: I'm still all friends with now obviously respected what I
[31:36] Speaker 2: did at the time. And within my family, yeah, obviously
[31:39] Speaker 2: Dad being a police officer didn't didn't change anything for me.
[31:43] Speaker 1: There. Yeah, it's funny, isn't it When you talk with
[31:46] Speaker 1: your mates and around that footy culture and all that.
[31:49] Speaker 1: There's some places you'd rather not be known as a
[31:53] Speaker 1: name as a cop. But I can just imagine thinking
[31:55] Speaker 1: that's funny when you're coming into the pub and your
[31:58] Speaker 1: mate's taking your bat nor whatever, taken a run off
[32:01] Speaker 1: with your hat and think it's hilarious. I had to
[32:04] Speaker 1: very I think it was in the first year, just
[32:06] Speaker 1: come out of probationary constable on night shift, been to
[32:09] Speaker 1: a party, a big party and out of control party
[32:12] Speaker 1: as a type of parties that you would go to
[32:15] Speaker 1: of a very good friend and had a live band there.
[32:17] Speaker 1: And when I started the night shift, the area that
[32:21] Speaker 1: I was working covered that party, and there was a
[32:23] Speaker 1: you have the job list when you start night shift
[32:26] Speaker 1: and the jobs what jobs, and there was about four
[32:28] Speaker 1: noise complaints to that particular address. And I said to
[32:34] Speaker 1: the senior constable or sergeant that I was working with
[32:36] Speaker 1: at the time, look, I actually just came from that party.
[32:40] Speaker 1: This could be embarrassing if we go there to close
[32:43] Speaker 1: it down. So we pulled up there at the party
[32:47] Speaker 1: and it was a good cop. The person I was
[32:51] Speaker 1: working with. I said, look, I think I might be
[32:53] Speaker 1: able to handle this better if I just go in
[32:55] Speaker 1: on my own. I don't think you really want to
[32:57] Speaker 1: go in there and see what's going on. How about
[33:00] Speaker 1: just going and if I can get the music stopped
[33:02] Speaker 1: with everyone's happy. And so I've walked in and I'm
[33:06] Speaker 1: in my uniform, walked in and the mates and friends
[33:11] Speaker 1: are all giving it to me. What are you doing here? Great,
[33:13] Speaker 1: you can come back. I'm here to tea to turn
[33:15] Speaker 1: the stop the band plane, turn the music off and
[33:18] Speaker 1: stop it. They thought that was hilarious, and I had
[33:21] Speaker 1: to make my point and like, no, it's got to stop.
[33:23] Speaker 1: This is Yeah, I'm going to get in all sorts
[33:26] Speaker 1: of shit. As I was walking out there, I'm hearing mates,
[33:30] Speaker 1: you'll out Jesus jubiling, you've changed more than your clothes
[33:32] Speaker 1: and that sort of shit. The next day they phoned
[33:36] Speaker 1: up and apologized or in the afternoon. They weren't awake
[33:39] Speaker 1: in the morning. But yeah, they're the type of situations
[33:41] Speaker 1: you can find yourself in. So to tests you in
[33:45] Speaker 1: a way too, doesn't it. You have to have to
[33:47] Speaker 1: know the parameters that you can hold.
[33:50] Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely, And that just reminded me then of there
[33:52] Speaker 2: was one sticky sort of scenario where two of my
[33:54] Speaker 2: mates from my footy club were starting to blue with
[33:57] Speaker 2: each other at the front of a nightclub. Yeah. We
[33:59] Speaker 2: subsequent there and I work out that I know both
[34:01] Speaker 2: of them and they're just the quarrying over something stupid
[34:04] Speaker 2: and I was trying to sort them out and go,
[34:06] Speaker 2: guys like, if you don't pull your heads in, my
[34:09] Speaker 2: offside has got to arresture. Well, I have to wrest
[34:11] Speaker 2: you quite frankly. You know, there's all members of the
[34:13] Speaker 2: public that are watching, and I'm getting other guys in
[34:15] Speaker 2: the foota club to tear them apart, and they eventually
[34:18] Speaker 2: did and same thing. Yeah, next day at footay training,
[34:21] Speaker 2: very very apologetic, just full of booze and bad ideas obviously,
[34:24] Speaker 2: But yeah, it does put you in a weird position,
[34:26] Speaker 2: that's for sure.
[34:27] Speaker 1: Yeah, And that's where it's important if you're working with
[34:30] Speaker 1: good cops that can guide you through that, because most
[34:33] Speaker 1: cops have been through situations like that where they're going
[34:36] Speaker 1: to make a decision in an environment that makes it
[34:40] Speaker 1: a little bit awkward. You spent three years in the
[34:44] Speaker 1: Metro area, then you applied to go out into the bush.
[34:49] Speaker 1: What inspired that and where did you go?
[34:52] Speaker 2: I went up to South Edland and so I'd left
[34:56] Speaker 2: Wembley due to that was due to tenure, so I
[35:01] Speaker 2: had to move on from that area. We have to
[35:03] Speaker 2: move on continuously over in Waypole here at certain locations.
[35:07] Speaker 2: And I went over to Scarborough initially, and I think
[35:10] Speaker 2: I'd only been there for two or three months. And
[35:13] Speaker 2: my partner at the time she wanted to go bush,
[35:18] Speaker 2: so she applied for South Headland, got it and I
[35:21] Speaker 2: subsequently just followed her up got the plus one ticket.
[35:24] Speaker 2: So look, I'd never I had never intended on going.
[35:28] Speaker 2: When I was younger, my dad had to go to
[35:31] Speaker 2: Geraldon for his country service and I say, I have
[35:34] Speaker 2: to go for country service. I put that lightly because
[35:37] Speaker 2: it just depends where the police forces are at the time.
[35:40] Speaker 2: He subsequently had to go because forensic's forensic specialists were
[35:45] Speaker 2: short in different country areas and he hadn't gone yet.
[35:48] Speaker 2: So they can pull the card on you. And obviously
[35:50] Speaker 2: you signed the dotted line when you apply, and part
[35:53] Speaker 2: of that is that it's expected you'll go country, but
[35:56] Speaker 2: you can very easily go your whole career and not
[35:59] Speaker 2: have to go country. Is quite frankly, that's where the
[36:01] Speaker 2: money is and a lot of people will fight tooth
[36:03] Speaker 2: and nail to go country. So South Headland was definitely
[36:06] Speaker 2: one of those places where you actually had to apply
[36:09] Speaker 2: yourself and put a good application in to get it
[36:12] Speaker 2: because not everyone could get there. There was a good
[36:15] Speaker 2: coin to be made, so I was quite lucky that
[36:17] Speaker 2: my partner at time got it. I got the plus
[36:19] Speaker 2: one and I had a ball. It was something that
[36:22] Speaker 2: I just sort of said yes to at the last minute.
[36:25] Speaker 2: I had no intention of it, like I said, but
[36:27] Speaker 2: I loved it for the small community that it was.
[36:30] Speaker 2: It was the best footy I'd ever played. Played country
[36:32] Speaker 2: footy up there as well. That was a he was
[36:34] Speaker 2: an eye opener as well to play against different people
[36:37] Speaker 2: within the town and quite frankly people I'm locking up,
[36:40] Speaker 2: people who I'm going to add of control bar parties
[36:43] Speaker 2: and shutting down and then the next weekend I'm subsequently
[36:46] Speaker 2: playing them. So that went down like a lead balloon sometimes.
[36:49] Speaker 2: But no, it was a great experience, that's for sure.
[36:52] Speaker 2: It grew me up again.
[36:54] Speaker 1: For people that don't know Port Headland up in the.
[36:56] Speaker 2: Pilbro Yes, Yeah, so you're looking at about sixteen hour
[36:59] Speaker 2: drive north from Perth if you go through the Guts,
[37:03] Speaker 2: if you go the coastal way, I think it's another
[37:05] Speaker 2: eighteen or nineteen hours.
[37:06] Speaker 1: Yeah, and Okay, so it's very isolated in there. That
[37:10] Speaker 1: people who have seen that movie Red Dog that was
[37:13] Speaker 1: filmed up up Brown there, and I spent a lot
[37:16] Speaker 1: of time up in that region, then the Red Dog
[37:20] Speaker 1: is not that the movie The Red Dog is not
[37:22] Speaker 1: dissimilar to the type of people in towns in there.
[37:27] Speaker 1: It's isolated, great beautiful, beautiful area. Like it's just it's yeah,
[37:32] Speaker 1: it's hard to describe, but that would have had its
[37:36] Speaker 1: own own challenges and been a cop in a small
[37:39] Speaker 1: community like that, you're never really off duey.
[37:42] Speaker 2: Are No, definitely not like to be in a town
[37:46] Speaker 2: where quite frankly, I could jog around town I could
[37:50] Speaker 2: probably do two or three laps of that place for
[37:53] Speaker 2: a good job for the day. So yeah, you're you know,
[37:56] Speaker 2: you're in a place where you walk into work, you
[37:58] Speaker 2: go into the shops where local crap heads are, You're
[38:02] Speaker 2: probably going out to have a beer and there's probably
[38:04] Speaker 2: going to be someone that you've locked up before, or
[38:06] Speaker 2: you're going to be expected to do something because everyone
[38:09] Speaker 2: knows that you're a copper in town. Yeah, as I said,
[38:11] Speaker 2: same at the Foota club, So you're never off duty,
[38:14] Speaker 2: but also you're always watched as well in the same sense.
[38:17] Speaker 2: But then it would get even more remote again whereby
[38:20] Speaker 2: we would go and help out outstations. So you know,
[38:22] Speaker 2: I'd gone and worked and acted up in a place
[38:24] Speaker 2: called Marble Bar. It's only a three man police station
[38:27] Speaker 2: and your backup is two hours away. Yeah, so if
[38:32] Speaker 2: something goes wrong there, you're it. And yeah, you're not
[38:36] Speaker 2: relying on anyone else, that's for sure.
[38:38] Speaker 1: That's the responsibility that those country cops carry, Isn't it
[38:42] Speaker 1: Like you are very much on your own. You've got
[38:45] Speaker 1: to make make decisions and you just don't have that backup.
[38:50] Speaker 1: But yeah, I don't think for people that haven't been
[38:53] Speaker 1: up in that region can appreciate how isolated the region is.
[38:56] Speaker 1: You can drive for hours on the road and not
[38:58] Speaker 1: pass anyone. The first time I went there from Sydney
[39:02] Speaker 1: and you drive along the road and people wave every
[39:04] Speaker 1: time a cargoes passed, I couldn't understand stand that. I
[39:07] Speaker 1: realized cars don't pass that very very social interaction. Yeah,
[39:12] Speaker 1: you're meant to Wave. It would have been some difference
[39:16] Speaker 1: from the policing in the Metro areas because you've got
[39:20] Speaker 1: some like indigenous communities up there, and that would have
[39:24] Speaker 1: been another aspect of policing.
[39:26] Speaker 2: Yeah, that was huge up there obviously that you know,
[39:29] Speaker 2: quite frankly eighty five ninety percent of our work i'd
[39:31] Speaker 2: say so dealing with the mining fivefo persons. But also yeah,
[39:37] Speaker 2: that that very much indigenous community in and around the
[39:39] Speaker 2: area as well, coming in from like I'm saying, a
[39:41] Speaker 2: bush bush place and South Headland is a city to
[39:46] Speaker 2: them and just assimilating, trying to work out the ins
[39:49] Speaker 2: and outs and what's right and wrong and their law
[39:52] Speaker 2: versus our law, white versus black law. It's just I
[39:55] Speaker 2: do feel for them and it must be such a
[39:57] Speaker 2: confusing thing and your tread around it so carefully as
[40:01] Speaker 2: a copper, and you're dead right, it is completely different
[40:04] Speaker 2: policing to the Metro area, whereby you've got a lot
[40:07] Speaker 2: more you've got a lot more say in the outcome.
[40:11] Speaker 2: And we talk again about the ability to de escalate
[40:15] Speaker 2: a situation because you can't afford for it to get
[40:17] Speaker 2: out of hand and out of control, and it can
[40:19] Speaker 2: get out of hand very very quickly, obviously, so you've
[40:22] Speaker 2: got to treade ward very carefully in that regard.
[40:24] Speaker 1: Yeah, and the cultural sensitivity and as you identified, like
[40:28] Speaker 1: people coming from very remote areas and yeah, that's coming
[40:31] Speaker 1: into the big smoke a small town like you were
[40:34] Speaker 1: working at for people. So yeah, I could imagine there'd
[40:37] Speaker 1: be a lot of challenges, but also rewarding working in
[40:41] Speaker 1: a country police station, like you can really make a
[40:43] Speaker 1: difference for a community.
[40:45] Speaker 2: Oh, definitely, definitely. Like I've still got one of my
[40:48] Speaker 2: one of my favorite photos were it was on Christmas Day,
[40:52] Speaker 2: I think, and we were driving around, driving around town.
[40:55] Speaker 2: I was on day shift. We had the Santa Hats
[40:58] Speaker 2: on and stuff, and we came to one household which
[41:01] Speaker 2: was normally a problem household, and it was pretty early
[41:04] Speaker 2: in the morning, so we weren't getting many dramas but
[41:07] Speaker 2: rocking up and just having three or four young Indigenous
[41:10] Speaker 2: kids by the ages of four to six coming out
[41:12] Speaker 2: and they just thought it was the best thing in
[41:14] Speaker 2: the world that we were there, just in Santa hats.
[41:16] Speaker 2: That was all it was. I think we had some
[41:18] Speaker 2: lollibags or something and they jumped in the back of
[41:22] Speaker 2: the van, door open. I sat next to it, and
[41:25] Speaker 2: then they were just jumping all over me like a playground.
[41:27] Speaker 2: And I've got a photo of that and it's still
[41:29] Speaker 2: one of my favorite photos from there. Just to have that,
[41:32] Speaker 2: you know, that happiness from those kids in that regard,
[41:35] Speaker 2: but then also out in the vast communities and what
[41:37] Speaker 2: you'd get from them if you connected well and you
[41:40] Speaker 2: de escalated a situation which was a good outcome.
[41:44] Speaker 1: That's crucial. I know a lot of Indigenous communities and
[41:47] Speaker 1: they say, we get the police in. That takes us
[41:50] Speaker 1: a couple of years to train them, and then when
[41:52] Speaker 1: we train them, they leave. But they say, and I've
[41:55] Speaker 1: seen it in communities, if they got a it might
[41:59] Speaker 1: only be one police officer that gets that rapport happening
[42:03] Speaker 1: with the communities. That can make a world of a
[42:06] Speaker 1: world of difference. You also those parts had the deal
[42:11] Speaker 1: with the mining guys and girls.
[42:14] Speaker 2: Now, yeah, they're different again. You know, they're quite highly strung.
[42:19] Speaker 2: You're dealing with the mental health side of the firefight life.
[42:22] Speaker 2: You know, their families are back at home. Some people
[42:25] Speaker 2: that have come up and they're just working their ass
[42:28] Speaker 2: off to be able to provide for someone back at home,
[42:32] Speaker 2: and they want to let some steam off every now
[42:34] Speaker 2: and then they go to the local pub, but it
[42:35] Speaker 2: might just get a little bit out of hand, So
[42:37] Speaker 2: there's that side of it. They're also usually nine times
[42:40] Speaker 2: out of ten, not small people, so yeah, you're dealing
[42:44] Speaker 2: with some pretty big lads. So yeah, that had its
[42:47] Speaker 2: own dynamic as well. Definitely.
[42:50] Speaker 1: Yeah, and you talk about the mental health and note
[42:52] Speaker 1: we're going to touch on it from policing, but I
[42:55] Speaker 1: think they're starting to identify that. Yeah, the fly and
[42:58] Speaker 1: fly out life is not not that healthy. I saw
[43:01] Speaker 1: a lot of people over in wa young guys that
[43:04] Speaker 1: were getting paid ridiculous amounts of money that probably wasn't
[43:08] Speaker 1: really warranted. The work that they were doing was hard.
[43:10] Speaker 1: They were working in the mines, coming back to the
[43:12] Speaker 1: city and think, yeah, at eighteen, we all should be
[43:16] Speaker 1: getting paid one hundred and fifty thousand dollars. It was
[43:19] Speaker 1: just unrealistic. And I know it crashed at certain stages,
[43:23] Speaker 1: but that causes problems and then the people away from
[43:26] Speaker 1: their families. It seems good on paper, but doing it
[43:28] Speaker 1: for an extended period of time does have an impact.
[43:32] Speaker 2: Oh, definitely. And that's the price that you're paying by
[43:34] Speaker 2: earning that money is you're saying, See, it's work life
[43:38] Speaker 2: balance and family life, and you're secluded. You are out
[43:42] Speaker 2: in the middle of nowhere. Sometimes, you know, you would
[43:46] Speaker 2: be considered very lucky to work inside of town like
[43:49] Speaker 2: south Headland. Normally south Headlands you fly in place and
[43:52] Speaker 2: then you're actually working another hour and a half two
[43:54] Speaker 2: hours out of town, which is even more remote. So
[43:57] Speaker 2: they're getting better at it. It's the same as everywhere
[43:59] Speaker 2: in society right now. You know, there's the jobs are
[44:02] Speaker 2: now you know, advertised within the FIFO industry with mental
[44:06] Speaker 2: health work programs and all these mindfulness things, which is good.
[44:10] Speaker 2: Can still get better obviously.
[44:11] Speaker 1: So yeah, yeah, but at least it's been identified. Another
[44:15] Speaker 1: issue I found fascinating in w A was you had
[44:19] Speaker 1: a lot of English cops over there that came in
[44:22] Speaker 1: from the UK, a recruiting program that came in. I
[44:26] Speaker 1: met a few of them when I was over there,
[44:28] Speaker 1: and then the people that we're talking about, the UK
[44:32] Speaker 1: cops have come over, but a lot of them ended
[44:35] Speaker 1: up leaving the w A police because they could make
[44:38] Speaker 1: more money in the in the mining industry.
[44:41] Speaker 2: Yeah, they did. They did two waves of they call
[44:44] Speaker 2: them transitional police officers. At the time, and the first
[44:48] Speaker 2: wave was supposed to be the ubut thing. It was
[44:49] Speaker 2: going to top a numbers up. All these UK coppers
[44:52] Speaker 2: were thinking brilliant and go to go of you know,
[44:55] Speaker 2: the sunny life style of Perth in Australia. They came
[44:59] Speaker 2: over to my understanding, I think they all got citizenships,
[45:01] Speaker 2: you know, with that, and then they rocked up, thought nah,
[45:05] Speaker 2: I'm going to go up north and earn a bit
[45:07] Speaker 2: more money, and they resigned straight away after. So they
[45:09] Speaker 2: spent all this time and money's swinging them all over
[45:12] Speaker 2: and then we lost most of them. Or they applied
[45:15] Speaker 2: for regional police stations, thinking that they could go and
[45:18] Speaker 2: do that, either for a quick promotion or a quick
[45:21] Speaker 2: quick pay, and going what the hell have I jumped
[45:24] Speaker 2: into here?
[45:26] Speaker 1: Yeah?
[45:27] Speaker 2: I would have been an eye opener.
[45:28] Speaker 1: I spoke to a couple of them that come from
[45:32] Speaker 1: London and ended up in ye somewhere like Kartha or
[45:36] Speaker 1: somewhere the Creek or yeah, what what is going on here?
[45:41] Speaker 1: But okay, so you had had four years up there
[45:44] Speaker 1: and that was considered that a good experience.
[45:48] Speaker 2: I loved it. I absolutely loved it. The you know,
[45:50] Speaker 2: I got some lifelong friends from it. I said, the
[45:54] Speaker 2: footy I loved the most. That's probably my best memory
[45:57] Speaker 2: from it. Even though you know you'd be playing footy,
[46:01] Speaker 2: you'd get rid of the ball and probably ten fifteen
[46:03] Speaker 2: minutes later you're copping an elbow over the back of
[46:05] Speaker 2: the head and it's the last crook that you locked up.
[46:07] Speaker 2: But I actually enjoyed at the end of those games
[46:09] Speaker 2: going up to the feller buying them a beer and
[46:11] Speaker 2: going like, yeah, you got me, no dramas, but we'll
[46:13] Speaker 2: wait till next game and I'll get your back. And
[46:15] Speaker 2: that gained me also respect within the community as well,
[46:17] Speaker 2: like the fact that I could take it. I remember
[46:20] Speaker 2: going to some some out of control parties after a
[46:23] Speaker 2: night of playing the like the derby team so port
[46:26] Speaker 2: Headler vers South Headland. I played for port Headlam and
[46:30] Speaker 2: I'd go to night shift straight after dealing with an
[46:32] Speaker 2: out of control party and I just played this whole
[46:35] Speaker 2: team and one of the guys I bought a beer
[46:38] Speaker 2: for I had a can of solo because I was
[46:39] Speaker 2: going to work after, but he was the first one
[46:42] Speaker 2: out the door when I said, hey, mate, you know
[46:44] Speaker 2: we've been called here because you guys are a bit
[46:46] Speaker 2: loud and noisy. He actually was the one that went
[46:48] Speaker 2: inside and turned it down for me, said, yep, I've
[46:50] Speaker 2: got a sort it. It's all good, no dramas. So
[46:52] Speaker 2: that paid dividends. The things I learned put me ahead
[46:56] Speaker 2: a mile and a half of all the other coppers
[46:58] Speaker 2: that I've graduated with who stayed in the stayed in
[47:01] Speaker 2: the Metro area. However, it did get me to that
[47:04] Speaker 2: point where I was like, you know what, I've done
[47:06] Speaker 2: my decent amount of general duties now and I'm happy.
[47:08] Speaker 2: I've done a stint in Metro, a stint in Country's
[47:12] Speaker 2: what's the next thing? And that's where that's what brought
[47:14] Speaker 2: me to diving.
[47:15] Speaker 1: And that's so diving. And you thought laying on the
[47:18] Speaker 1: beach and just snorkeling every now and then and coming
[47:21] Speaker 1: out and drying off. Okay, you what inspired you to diving?
[47:27] Speaker 1: Why particular diving because it's a very specialist area of policing.
[47:31] Speaker 2: Yeah, it was purely that. I actually was just I
[47:36] Speaker 2: was willing to cut my teeth on whatever I could
[47:38] Speaker 2: get into that was a specialist role. I initially tried
[47:41] Speaker 2: out for the tactical unit, the TIG that we called
[47:43] Speaker 2: him over here, so I trained while I was up there,
[47:46] Speaker 2: I had no guidance whatsoever to do that. I was
[47:49] Speaker 2: young and dumb, I trained poorly, so I didn't make
[47:52] Speaker 2: the cut for that, but I was I was bloody
[47:55] Speaker 2: fit at the end of it. And I was never
[47:57] Speaker 2: ever going to be a detective, that was for sure.
[47:59] Speaker 2: I wasn't good at him investigating. I just wanted to,
[48:02] Speaker 2: you know, physically run and catch crooks and then I
[48:04] Speaker 2: was willing to hand all them off and someone else
[48:06] Speaker 2: could take the glory in that regard. I just wanted
[48:07] Speaker 2: to do the running part, so as soon as the
[48:11] Speaker 2: tactical side of it it was over. There was a
[48:13] Speaker 2: couple of weeks after the expression of interest came out
[48:15] Speaker 2: for the diving side. I hadn't ever done a job
[48:18] Speaker 2: with water police or divers. I'd not had anything to
[48:21] Speaker 2: do with them. I knew one guy who nowadays is
[48:24] Speaker 2: still a very good friend of mine. He was in
[48:26] Speaker 2: the police footy team and he had just made it
[48:28] Speaker 2: to divers as well. So I remember it coming out.
[48:31] Speaker 2: I text him and said, like, okay, mate, you guys
[48:33] Speaker 2: just put an expression of interest out for diving. What's
[48:37] Speaker 2: involved with it? Like, I'm pretty good in the water,
[48:39] Speaker 2: I like swimming, but I don't have my dive ticket
[48:41] Speaker 2: or anything. What do you recommend He straightaway said, look,
[48:45] Speaker 2: we've we've only just recently changed it up. You need
[48:48] Speaker 2: to actually have a dive ticket now because we used
[48:50] Speaker 2: to teach you how to dive, but that just obviously
[48:52] Speaker 2: took too long, so we want you to have the
[48:53] Speaker 2: basics and then we'll train you the rest of the way.
[48:56] Speaker 2: And we know, shit, where am I going to go
[48:58] Speaker 2: in South Headland to learn how to dive? So I
[49:00] Speaker 2: actually had to drive some five or six hours south
[49:04] Speaker 2: down to Xmouth to go and get my dive ticket.
[49:07] Speaker 2: So I did that. The only course that was available
[49:10] Speaker 2: during that time though, was literally twenty four hours before
[49:13] Speaker 2: the selection course started, so I applied for it, saying hey,
[49:17] Speaker 2: I'm going to go get this dive ticket. Pick me
[49:19] Speaker 2: and I'll come down and show what I got. And
[49:21] Speaker 2: it somehow worked. So yeah, I drove back down to
[49:25] Speaker 2: south drove up to South Edland, got on a plane,
[49:29] Speaker 2: came down to perse David, mum and dad and the
[49:31] Speaker 2: next day started the selection course for a week.
[49:33] Speaker 1: Okay, and what sort of things did they run you
[49:36] Speaker 1: through in the selection course?
[49:38] Speaker 2: So that one week's selection course is, believe it or not,
[49:41] Speaker 2: it's actually no diving. So that's purely just determining whether
[49:45] Speaker 2: or not you're going to be the right fit. So
[49:47] Speaker 2: you've got a lot of running, a lot of finning.
[49:49] Speaker 2: So just laying on your back with the group of
[49:52] Speaker 2: people that you apply for apply with sorry up into
[49:56] Speaker 2: the Swan River, you're just finning from edge to edge.
[49:58] Speaker 2: They'll put you in positions where they say, right, we're
[50:01] Speaker 2: going to get from this side.
[50:02] Speaker 1: And when you say finning, just to explain it to people,
[50:05] Speaker 1: just on your back in the water, just with your
[50:08] Speaker 1: fins on and just keeping your head up and doing
[50:10] Speaker 1: what you need.
[50:11] Speaker 2: Just hours and hours on end of just finning and
[50:13] Speaker 2: kicking it. Just it turns your turns, your hitt flexes
[50:16] Speaker 2: into e cords, I tell you. But it's just about
[50:20] Speaker 2: endurance and perseverance and what you're going to do when
[50:24] Speaker 2: it gets shit essentially. So you know they would stick
[50:26] Speaker 2: us in the side of the river and go right,
[50:27] Speaker 2: we want you to get from this side to that side.
[50:29] Speaker 2: And they knew farewell that the tide was about to
[50:31] Speaker 2: go out and you're about to go against it. It's
[50:33] Speaker 2: only a hundred and fifty meters sort of fin but
[50:36] Speaker 2: they know that you're not going to be able to
[50:38] Speaker 2: get there. In fact, you're actually going to go backwards,
[50:40] Speaker 2: and it's just to see what you're going to do.
[50:41] Speaker 2: So all unachievable tasks. Want to make sure that you
[50:45] Speaker 2: don't quit, you don't give up, and you just keep going. Yeah,
[50:48] Speaker 2: a lot of late night wake ups. So middle of
[50:50] Speaker 2: the night, you're sleeping in your swag and the sergeant
[50:53] Speaker 2: will come in start ringing the bell. Right, we've got
[50:55] Speaker 2: a swamp that we need to go search. So we'd
[50:58] Speaker 2: be jumping into this swamp. God God only knows what
[51:01] Speaker 2: was in it and what we were smelling, but searching
[51:03] Speaker 2: that at two or three in the morning. Yeah, a
[51:06] Speaker 2: little bit of study in terms of the physiology of diving,
[51:10] Speaker 2: just to somewhat understand a bit more about it. But yeah,
[51:14] Speaker 2: that was a big, big wake up for me in
[51:16] Speaker 2: terms of, like, shit, I haven't actually done a selection
[51:19] Speaker 2: course before, and I found out a lot about myself
[51:22] Speaker 2: in that regard in terms of pushing and what I
[51:24] Speaker 2: was willing to do. That's sure.
[51:26] Speaker 1: Yeah, sleep deprivation and not giving you much feedback, I
[51:30] Speaker 1: would imagine, and.
[51:31] Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely, Yeah, and I hated no feedback because I
[51:35] Speaker 2: always liked, like, I like succeeding everyone does, yeah, and
[51:39] Speaker 2: quite frankly, if I fail, that's fine as well, but
[51:41] Speaker 2: just let me know then I can correct it. But
[51:43] Speaker 2: when you're just getting told oh, yeah, okay, and then
[51:45] Speaker 2: they walk off, you're like, shit, did I do good
[51:48] Speaker 2: or do bad? And that eats up at people and
[51:50] Speaker 2: they leave subsequently just because I think they've failed and
[51:53] Speaker 2: they actually were doing fine.
[51:54] Speaker 1: And I would think some people they'd have to weed
[51:58] Speaker 1: them out because it would confront like get into this
[52:00] Speaker 1: swamp and yeah, or a sewer drain whatever, yeah, they
[52:04] Speaker 1: put you in. Then it wouldn't be for everyone, I
[52:06] Speaker 1: would imagine. No, So when did they start taking you
[52:10] Speaker 1: below the surface?
[52:12] Speaker 2: So you do that one week course. Once you've finished that,
[52:16] Speaker 2: they'll say yeah or no, you've been invited back for
[52:19] Speaker 2: the three week You actually go back to your station
[52:21] Speaker 2: at that point, so I went back to South Headland.
[52:22] Speaker 2: A couple of weeks later. You get invited back for
[52:24] Speaker 2: a three week course and that one is very very
[52:27] Speaker 2: much tied alongside the diving aspects of things. So how
[52:30] Speaker 2: you actually react underwater, confined space, very dark areas obviously
[52:35] Speaker 2: no viz and then also the cold the coal was
[52:38] Speaker 2: a big one, so they put you essentially into hypothermia
[52:42] Speaker 2: to see what your cognitive load is, how you can react,
[52:45] Speaker 2: if you can pick up on it, what you're going
[52:48] Speaker 2: to do to counteract it. And the benefit of me
[52:51] Speaker 2: being in the squad for so long as I got
[52:53] Speaker 2: to run these selection courses later, so I've got to
[52:55] Speaker 2: find out the other side of it. So yeah, those
[52:58] Speaker 2: three weeks were quite intense as well, but as not
[53:01] Speaker 2: as physically demanding in terms of endurance, running and fitning
[53:04] Speaker 2: and all that. It's more technique, I suppose, but a
[53:06] Speaker 2: bit more mental.
[53:08] Speaker 1: And the mental aspect of it, the hypothermia and in
[53:11] Speaker 1: cold water, that can break people down, yeah.
[53:14] Speaker 2: Big time. Like it's just it's another uncomfortable feeling and
[53:18] Speaker 2: we want to make sure. Yes, like you know, there's
[53:21] Speaker 2: a component of the course where we're cutting a piece
[53:23] Speaker 2: of metal first.
[53:24] Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm reading that in your book and I was
[53:27] Speaker 1: fascinated by it. Tell tell people about that.
[53:31] Speaker 2: Yeah, So I mean it's a it's a great it's
[53:33] Speaker 2: a great exercise to find out if people will really,
[53:36] Speaker 2: you know, be able to respond well and operate within
[53:40] Speaker 2: cold environments. But we're never going to operate in that environment.
[53:44] Speaker 2: You know it wouldn't be conducive with operational needs and requirements,
[53:47] Speaker 2: but we take them to the worst case scenario so
[53:48] Speaker 2: we know that they can operate in anything else. So
[53:50] Speaker 2: what we do is we we start off the unit
[53:53] Speaker 2: or the candidates on an afternoon shift. You'll start it
[53:59] Speaker 2: twelve the twelve in the day and they'll do a
[54:02] Speaker 2: little bit of PT, get some sort of study out
[54:05] Speaker 2: of the way. And then we just got told by
[54:07] Speaker 2: the dive sergeant, right, have a big feed, get a
[54:09] Speaker 2: lot of water into you because there's a long exercise
[54:11] Speaker 2: coming and we're working till ten pm a night or something.
[54:14] Speaker 2: So you go and get a feed in skull as
[54:16] Speaker 2: much water as you can. Obviously we're going to be
[54:18] Speaker 2: diving for a while. That's the exercise. And we got
[54:21] Speaker 2: to the wharf and the sergeant goes right, there's been
[54:23] Speaker 2: some cast iron rods that we've thrown into the river.
[54:26] Speaker 2: There's a hacks or blade next to it. Go down,
[54:29] Speaker 2: find yours. You also got your diving number on it,
[54:32] Speaker 2: your candidate number. If you don't find it, don't bother
[54:34] Speaker 2: coming back up because you're not a good police dive
[54:37] Speaker 2: with Thatt's case, and what we want you to do
[54:39] Speaker 2: is start cutting off a slither off that metal rod.
[54:42] Speaker 2: We only want it to be ten to fifteen mil
[54:44] Speaker 2: whatever it was at the time. You got to the
[54:45] Speaker 2: end of the shift going there, so you go in.
[54:48] Speaker 2: You find it to start with the visa isn't that
[54:51] Speaker 2: bad at the time, But they purposely do it while
[54:54] Speaker 2: the tide's coming out, so you're getting the muck from
[54:57] Speaker 2: the rest of the river, so it's making it difficult.
[55:00] Speaker 2: I tried to establish like a sort of a workbench
[55:02] Speaker 2: as such, and later I found out that that was
[55:05] Speaker 2: one of the you know, one of the tests. I
[55:08] Speaker 2: supposed to get a workbench going to articulate how you
[55:12] Speaker 2: would operate underwater in a company environment and make it efficient.
[55:16] Speaker 2: Start hacksaw, and I stupidly got about half an hour
[55:20] Speaker 2: in I think it was, and I was like, geez,
[55:22] Speaker 2: I'm not moving very far on this thing. And I
[55:24] Speaker 2: pulled the hacksaw blade up to look at it, and
[55:26] Speaker 2: the guys had put it the wrong way around on.
[55:27] Speaker 1: Me, so it was in. It wasn't just a blade
[55:31] Speaker 1: that was in a hack you had the saw on it,
[55:33] Speaker 1: but they'd put the hacks all blade in upside down.
[55:36] Speaker 2: Upside down, Yeah, and I ended up doing that for
[55:38] Speaker 2: other candidates later in life. It's just a it's something
[55:41] Speaker 2: that you do to make sure that you know they're
[55:43] Speaker 2: operating well and smart and efficient. As I said, so
[55:46] Speaker 2: work that one out, flipped it over, started getting into
[55:48] Speaker 2: it at that stage, and then I got to about
[55:51] Speaker 2: the hour mark and I thought I'm starting to run
[55:53] Speaker 2: out of air here. So eventually ran out came up.
[55:57] Speaker 2: So I should also say that it wasn't till the
[55:59] Speaker 2: end of the shift. It was like, right, you need
[56:00] Speaker 2: to cut this slither off by the end of your cylinder,
[56:02] Speaker 2: so don't come up until it's done.
[56:04] Speaker 1: So how long had you been under the water at
[56:06] Speaker 1: this stage?
[56:07] Speaker 2: That'd be about an hour. So the depth that we
[56:09] Speaker 2: were at and how we're work and give it take
[56:11] Speaker 2: an hour. So come up. Tell this sergeant, I've effectively
[56:14] Speaker 2: failed the mission. Yeah, I haven't gotten your slither. And
[56:17] Speaker 2: he goes, I suppose you want another cylinder then, and
[56:18] Speaker 2: keep going. I went, yeah, cool, if I'm allowed to.
[56:20] Speaker 2: So he throws the cylinder in. How to change it
[56:22] Speaker 2: on the surface, go back under and keep cutting, and
[56:25] Speaker 2: at that stage I sort of worked out right there's
[56:26] Speaker 2: about four hours of the shift left. I've done a
[56:29] Speaker 2: quarter of that. I'm about ten percent of the way
[56:32] Speaker 2: through this piece of metal. Like, I'm not doing this today,
[56:36] Speaker 2: so keep going anyway. And I just had this sort
[56:38] Speaker 2: of mantra going through my head that you know they're
[56:40] Speaker 2: not going to do anything that's going to kill you,
[56:42] Speaker 2: So just keep going is what it is, except that
[56:44] Speaker 2: you're going to fail it. But you know they want
[56:46] Speaker 2: to see you keep going, so kept going. They come
[56:49] Speaker 2: down halfway through that rip your mask off. You can't
[56:51] Speaker 2: see anything. Now, your head's freezing cold. Your mask can
[56:56] Speaker 2: keep your nose and your eyes quite warm, believe it
[56:58] Speaker 2: or not. But when that's exposed to the water as well,
[57:00] Speaker 2: and it's your whole head, the sting is just unbearable.
[57:04] Speaker 2: So you're doing it with your eyes shut. Not that
[57:06] Speaker 2: you need your eyes, but it just makes it a
[57:07] Speaker 2: lot comfier. Yeah, they give your mass back. You've got
[57:11] Speaker 2: to put that back on. Keep going, And we get
[57:13] Speaker 2: to the end of the shift and they bring us
[57:14] Speaker 2: all up. None of us have completed it, so we
[57:17] Speaker 2: come up. The sergeant goes, right, you've all failed. Have
[57:20] Speaker 2: a good heart. Think about what you want to do.
[57:21] Speaker 2: And why you want to be here. Go have a
[57:24] Speaker 2: shower and go home, be back in the morning. So
[57:27] Speaker 2: I go have a shower, and I just I could
[57:29] Speaker 2: not I could not believe how cold I was. It
[57:32] Speaker 2: was just down to my bones. And I actually went
[57:35] Speaker 2: into the shower turn the hot water on, and the
[57:36] Speaker 2: hot water hit me and I just completely blacked out,
[57:39] Speaker 2: woke up on the shower floor all of a sudden,
[57:41] Speaker 2: and you know, having some understanding of the physiology now
[57:44] Speaker 2: of hyperthermia, I knew that, yeah, I was in severe
[57:47] Speaker 2: hyperthermia and my body had just shut down with that
[57:49] Speaker 2: heat heat exchange. So I went home, came back. They
[57:54] Speaker 2: subsequently go, right, you've got another chance, go down, and
[57:57] Speaker 2: we want you to hurry up and get this done.
[58:00] Speaker 2: And they all disappear off to the side, and I
[58:02] Speaker 2: still remember one of the one of the team mates
[58:04] Speaker 2: came up and said, right, boys, everyone come in, and
[58:07] Speaker 2: he'd gone past a hardware store on the way and
[58:09] Speaker 2: pulled out a couple of new hacks or blades out
[58:11] Speaker 2: from his wetsuit and gave it all to us, said
[58:13] Speaker 2: get these India, and then hopefully you'll be able to
[58:15] Speaker 2: cut a bit quicker when you go back in, so
[58:17] Speaker 2: went back down started cutting, and the new blade definitely helped.
[58:20] Speaker 2: We'll go in like a bad out of hell. And
[58:22] Speaker 2: I got to about the I think it was a
[58:23] Speaker 2: six and a half seven hour mark, whatever it was,
[58:25] Speaker 2: and I'd finished, came up to the top as proud
[58:28] Speaker 2: as punches his piece of metal. I looked at the
[58:30] Speaker 2: sergeants said I got it, and he goes, yeah, one
[58:34] Speaker 2: side looks a little bit too thick, though, mate, So
[58:36] Speaker 2: go down and get me another one, and I just
[58:38] Speaker 2: nearly died. Everything just stopped and I was like, are
[58:41] Speaker 2: you bloody kidding me? So I went down and I
[58:45] Speaker 2: reckon I was putting ten percent of the effort in
[58:47] Speaker 2: that I was doing beforehand to get another piece now.
[58:50] Speaker 2: And it was only about ten or fifteen minutes later
[58:52] Speaker 2: that other stuff member came down, got my attention, took
[58:56] Speaker 2: me over to where the others were we're cutting. There
[58:59] Speaker 2: was four of us left at this stage, and went
[59:02] Speaker 2: past the two bays where I thought there was two
[59:04] Speaker 2: other candidates and they weren't there anymore. But on the
[59:06] Speaker 2: last candidate. They were all gathered around this last guy
[59:10] Speaker 2: cutting and the staff member basically communicated to us with
[59:14] Speaker 2: hand signals right, everyone's to help out. You need to
[59:17] Speaker 2: get this guy done, and then and then it's and
[59:19] Speaker 2: then it's done for the done for the session, and
[59:21] Speaker 2: it was like, oh sweet. So we worked out this
[59:23] Speaker 2: method of someone holding onto the axas someone pushing, someone pulling.
[59:27] Speaker 2: We did two minute rotations and before you knew it,
[59:29] Speaker 2: we'd finished his cutoff, got all up. We're as proud
[59:33] Speaker 2: as punch. Handed these pieces of metals to the to
[59:36] Speaker 2: the staff and it's it's actually one of the things
[59:39] Speaker 2: that at the end of the course we get handed
[59:42] Speaker 2: back to us, so you think it's done and dusted.
[59:44] Speaker 2: You're never going to see that piece of metal again.
[59:45] Speaker 2: And that's that was like, No, that thing I spent
[59:47] Speaker 2: eight cold hours on, Like that thing's fucking priceless to me.
[59:51] Speaker 2: But they actually put on a park and that's your
[59:53] Speaker 2: graduation sort of award night, which is still hanging up
[59:56] Speaker 2: on my office now, and it's a good memory of
[1:00:00] Speaker 2: what you can do and what you push yourself to do.
[1:00:03] Speaker 2: And there was a job that I actually got as
[1:00:06] Speaker 2: cold as that day and I remember thinking I've done
[1:00:09] Speaker 2: this before for eight hours, like I'm going to do
[1:00:12] Speaker 2: this for forty five minutes to an hour max, I
[1:00:14] Speaker 2: can do it for seven more. I'm sweet. This is good,
[1:00:17] Speaker 2: and that's why we do it. It's a perfect example
[1:00:19] Speaker 2: of why we do that.
[1:00:21] Speaker 1: I think any course that you do, if you have
[1:00:23] Speaker 1: those challenges, it makes it more worthwhile. And I can
[1:00:27] Speaker 1: certainly understand why they've got to put your through your
[1:00:31] Speaker 1: paces in that manner. They're going to see that you've
[1:00:33] Speaker 1: got a degree of resilience and you're going to hang
[1:00:36] Speaker 1: in there because a lot of the tasks that you
[1:00:38] Speaker 1: get to do as a diver are pretty difficult. Yeah, definitely,
[1:00:45] Speaker 1: I think, and this is why it's interesting having a
[1:00:47] Speaker 1: chat and then part two we're just going to deep
[1:00:50] Speaker 1: dive into the jobs that you've done because the majority
[1:00:53] Speaker 1: of people, including police like I never overthink what's going
[1:00:57] Speaker 1: on under the water. When I'd be the crime scene
[1:00:59] Speaker 1: and gave can you search search that creek? We see,
[1:01:03] Speaker 1: we see you dude roll up at the crime scenes.
[1:01:06] Speaker 1: The public see you in the media. They always get
[1:01:09] Speaker 1: shots of divers searching for a body or searching for
[1:01:12] Speaker 1: a weapon, that that type of thing. But what goes
[1:01:15] Speaker 1: on under there? And I just I said to you
[1:01:19] Speaker 1: this the other day when we're talking. I was blowing
[1:01:22] Speaker 1: away when I was talking to a diver at the
[1:01:24] Speaker 1: scene and I thought, you know, crawling around bottom of
[1:01:28] Speaker 1: a river in the ocean or whatever, around the murky depth,
[1:01:33] Speaker 1: no vision. I would have thought you'd have gloves on
[1:01:35] Speaker 1: because Aniel might come out and bite your fingers off,
[1:01:37] Speaker 1: or you might grab something sharp. And I know we
[1:01:41] Speaker 1: do it all with our hands. You need, you need
[1:01:44] Speaker 1: the touch to feel what you're looking for, and that
[1:01:47] Speaker 1: touch often I'll get you to talk about some of
[1:01:52] Speaker 1: the experiences that you've had in part two. But you're
[1:01:54] Speaker 1: looking for a body, and yeah, in the pitch black underwater.
[1:01:59] Speaker 1: Not I mentioned all the other creepy stuff that might
[1:02:02] Speaker 1: get you in the water. You're looking for a body,
[1:02:05] Speaker 1: and your success is if you get your hand on
[1:02:07] Speaker 1: a body that's been submerged in the water for god
[1:02:10] Speaker 1: knows how long, or a skeletal remain you just ain't know.
[1:02:13] Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely and I and I said to you the
[1:02:14] Speaker 2: other day, mate, it's I think if anyone from the
[1:02:18] Speaker 2: same same style of work ever says that, Oh yeah,
[1:02:22] Speaker 2: And I started handling it better as I got into
[1:02:24] Speaker 2: the job and it was less scary. I think they're
[1:02:26] Speaker 2: full of shit. The last body that I ever had
[1:02:29] Speaker 2: for eight years of the dive squad. Compared to the
[1:02:31] Speaker 2: first one, I was shitting myself just as much.
[1:02:33] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[1:02:34] Speaker 2: Yeah, there's nothing that I think you're ever going to
[1:02:36] Speaker 2: is going to prepare you for that. It's about the
[1:02:39] Speaker 2: professionalism leading up to it and then what you do
[1:02:42] Speaker 2: after it as well. But that moment of that touch
[1:02:44] Speaker 2: and grabbing onto that body, it never leaves you, that's
[1:02:47] Speaker 2: for sure.
[1:02:48] Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, I can feel my heart beating quicker just
[1:02:51] Speaker 1: the thought of it in pitch black, in the water, cold,
[1:02:54] Speaker 1: uncomfortable and creeping around on the bottom of a river
[1:02:59] Speaker 1: looking for a am looking for a body part.
[1:03:02] Speaker 2: Yeah.
[1:03:02] Speaker 1: Okay, Well, we're going to ask you a lot in
[1:03:04] Speaker 1: part two, the scariest jobs you've had, the most difficult,
[1:03:08] Speaker 1: the most rewarding. We're going to talk about the emotional
[1:03:11] Speaker 1: toll it takes, because I think you touched on it there.
[1:03:14] Speaker 1: We've got to be realistic, like you're the type of
[1:03:17] Speaker 1: work you get called in when something bad has happened.
[1:03:20] Speaker 1: You're not been called in for something good. Maybe you've
[1:03:22] Speaker 1: had some success where you've helped someone, but invariably it's
[1:03:26] Speaker 1: a tragedy that's occurred, and that's where you guys, get
[1:03:29] Speaker 1: get called into it, and I'm going to ask you
[1:03:32] Speaker 1: about sharks, because we've been talking for an hour and
[1:03:34] Speaker 1: you haven't mentioned sharks. And I think if I was
[1:03:36] Speaker 1: going to sign up for police divers, that would be
[1:03:38] Speaker 1: at the forefront of my thoughts. So we'll have a
[1:03:42] Speaker 1: break and we'll be back for part two.
[1:03:44] Speaker 2: Awesome, Thanks Garrett.
[1:03:45] Speaker 1: Cheers,

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