# Bonnie Garmus on why the 'least admired' art – poetry – might end up saving the world

An episode of [Good Weekend Talks](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1501054889), 8 Oct 2026, 37 min.

Audio: https://pdst.fm/e/traffic.omny.fm/d/clips/88b564ea-a9a6-4751-910a-a5d800019396/938e5ca5-7771-4bc2-852a-ab8300272ea4/fd6f52ac-a8f3-45aa-ad45-b4dc00723c36/audio.mp3?utm_source=Podcast&in_playlist=5249b1b2-6224-4d5a-b1d1-ab8300272f0a

On the cusp of 65, Bonnie Garmus published her debut novel Lessons in Chemistry. It was a global sensation and the copywriter, who had a previous manuscript rejected by publishers 98 times, sold almost 10 million copies and enjoyed being co-executive producer when it was made into an eight-part streaming hit starring Brie Larson. Today, Garmus talks about her new novel Peck & Peck, which explores – through a delightfully-named young man Batter Gray – the themes of art in a time of pragmatism, and empathy in a world driven by technology intended “to make money, not make what is worthwhile”. The US-born, now UK-based Garmus also opens up about the importance of poetry, explaining why she reads a new poem every day and how that ritual has changed her. Plus: her 5am starts, the work of writing and rewriting – and beginning anew when everyone believes your time is done. Today’s conversation is hosted by National Books Editor at The Sydney Morning Herald and The Age, Melanie Kembrey. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

## Transcript

[0:14] S1: Bonnie Garmus published her debut novel, Lessons in Chemistry, on
[0:18] S1: the cusp of 65. It was a global sensation, of course,
[0:22] S1: and the copywriter, who had a previous manuscript rejected by
[0:25] S1: publishers 98 times, sold 7 million copies and enjoyed being
[0:31] S1: a co-executive producer. When the book was made into an
[0:33] S1: eight part streaming hit starring Brie Larson. Now she has
[0:38] S1: a new novel, Peck and Peck, which explores through a
[0:40] S1: delightfully named young man batter gray, the themes of art
[0:44] S1: in a time of pragmatism and empathy in a world
[0:47] S1: bursting with technology. I'm Konrad Marshall and from the Sydney
[0:51] S1: Morning Herald and The age. Welcome to Good Weekend Talks,
[0:54] S1: featuring weekly, in-depth conversations with fascinating people. In this episode,
[1:00] S1: the US born and now UK residing Garmus opens up
[1:03] S1: about the importance of one of her obsessions poetry. Explaining
[1:08] S1: why she reads a new poem every day and how
[1:10] S1: that daily ritual has changed her for the better. Plus,
[1:14] S1: we chat about her 5 a.m. starts the work of
[1:17] S1: writing and rewriting and beginning anew when everyone believes your
[1:21] S1: time is done. Today's conversation is hosted by National Books
[1:25] S1: editor Melanie Kembrey.
[1:28] S2: Thank you, Conrad, and welcome to Good Weekend Talks, Bonnie Garmus.
[1:32] S2: Oh thank you. It's such a delight to be here.
[1:34] S2: You know, I have a very strong feeling, a very
[1:37] S2: huge soft spot for Australia. And is that purely because
[1:41] S2: of all the rowing you've done here? I think, you know,
[1:44] S2: so many of my friends live in Australia and New
[1:48] S2: Zealand and I've rowed with so many people and I
[1:51] S2: just I love the country. You know, I've only been
[1:53] S2: there one time and I just it was so beautiful.
[1:56] S2: So I can't wait to come back. And speaking about
[1:59] S2: your kind of love of rowing. Bonnie, your characters tend
[2:02] S2: to be obsessives, whether that is rowing or chemistry or
[2:06] S2: poetry or typography. What's taking up an unreasonable amount of
[2:11] S2: brain space for you at the moment? Oh. Right now. HMM.
[2:16] S2: That's a really good question. It feels right now. You know,
[2:19] S2: it's we're about six weeks away from publication, so I
[2:23] S2: think I'm writing a lot of articles for different magazines
[2:26] S2: and things. And that's taking up a lot of, uh,
[2:29] S2: of headspace. But I'm also I'm dedicated to reading one
[2:33] S2: poem a day. I've been doing it since 2009, and
[2:36] S2: I find that that kind of evens me out. Talk
[2:39] S2: to me about what started that project of one poem
[2:41] S2: a day. Well, when I was in high school, when
[2:45] S2: I was about 14 or 15 years old, I had
[2:47] S2: an English teacher. Uh, he was really, really good. And
[2:51] S2: every day he would read a poem out loud. And
[2:55] S2: it was one of the, the things that we loved
[2:56] S2: about his class. He was a very good reader of poetry,
[2:59] S2: and he was a poet himself. And he always used
[3:02] S2: to say, you know, the best writers are poets. And
[3:05] S2: then if you do pursue writing. I mean, I guess
[3:08] S2: you could write novels or be a reporter, but that's
[3:11] S2: not quite as craft worthy. I mean, he was a
[3:14] S2: little bit of a snob. Uh, but anyway, he made
[3:18] S2: us promise at the end of the school year that
[3:21] S2: all of us would read a poem a day for
[3:22] S2: the rest of our lives. And he said, um, it's not,
[3:27] S2: it's not because I think that, you know, you, you
[3:29] S2: need to study this person or this form. It's because
[3:32] S2: poetry will end up saving your life. It will keep
[3:34] S2: your brain fresh and it will keep your ideas open
[3:38] S2: and you will explore the world through poetry. And so
[3:40] S2: we all kept the promise for at least four hours
[3:43] S2: until the school year was over. And then I never
[3:45] S2: read a poem. I mean, I just didn't. And then
[3:48] S2: one day I was driving home from work and I
[3:51] S2: heard a poem by Nikki Giovanni on the radio, and
[3:54] S2: it was a poem that he had read. And it
[3:56] S2: brought tears to my eyes and I thought, why hadn't
[3:59] S2: I kept this promise? Because I did feel like my
[4:02] S2: brain was starting to rot. And I did feel like
[4:06] S2: work was overwhelming. And on that day, I decided to
[4:11] S2: fulfill that promise to him. And I started reading a
[4:14] S2: poem a day. And I know it sounds kind of ridiculous,
[4:18] S2: but it actually matters so much if you don't have
[4:20] S2: time to read an entire book or, you know, a
[4:24] S2: long magazine article, you have time to read a poem.
[4:26] S2: And it's so complex, uh, that it will, it will
[4:30] S2: actually help you in lots of ways. You don't really
[4:33] S2: realize until you start getting into it. Including upping your
[4:37] S2: empathy and connecting you with your heartbeat a little more often.
[4:42] S3: And how do you pick which poem you read?
[4:43] S2: I don't, I get one scent every day for free
[4:47] S2: from the Poetry Foundation.
[4:49] S3: And how many times do you read the poem? Is
[4:51] S3: it just you sit with it for a while or
[4:52] S3: you kind of do one read?
[4:54] S2: I do one read. And if I don't quite connect
[4:57] S2: with it and there are plenty I don't connect with,
[4:59] S2: I might just move on. But there are some that
[5:01] S2: I read it and I think, oh, I've never seen
[5:04] S2: the world this way, or I never heard this kind
[5:07] S2: of voice before. And then I will read it again.
[5:10] S2: And sometimes I print it out. And now I have
[5:13] S2: the stack on my desk of poems that I just love,
[5:16] S2: that have really spoken to me.
[5:17] S3: And poetry is at the heart of your delightful second novel.
[5:21] S3: Peck and Peck. Was it this routine that provided the
[5:24] S3: inspiration for the book?
[5:25] S2: Really, it was my, um, my unhappiness at that time
[5:30] S2: with technology. And this is way back. Like I was saying,
[5:33] S2: this is before lessons in chemistry. I'd had this idea
[5:36] S2: for Peck and Peck that, uh, there would be. I
[5:40] S2: was having kind of a reckoning with my career, and
[5:43] S2: it felt like technology was moving in the wrong direction.
[5:47] S2: When I had first started writing in the technology space
[5:50] S2: for advertising. It was so interesting and so innovative and
[5:55] S2: so full of promise. And then it seemed to be
[5:57] S2: slowly sliding into something that I didn't recognize. Um, it
[6:03] S2: was becoming more about making money instead of making what
[6:07] S2: was worthwhile. And, and so I was, I was really
[6:11] S2: at a crossroads with what I was doing. And I
[6:13] S2: was turning down more and more work because I didn't
[6:16] S2: feel good about what they were doing. And this was
[6:19] S2: way back before, you know, now people talk about AI
[6:22] S2: all the time and what a danger it is. But
[6:24] S2: back then, we all knew about it and we knew
[6:27] S2: it was a danger. And so it was much more,
[6:30] S2: I don't know, it wasn't that people were smarter. It
[6:33] S2: was simply that they took it more seriously than they
[6:36] S2: do today. And they would have never allowed it to
[6:39] S2: come out unregulated as it has.
[6:42] S3: And peck and peck. It follows a devoted young poet batter, gray,
[6:46] S3: who gets a job at a prestigious, if dysfunctional, poetry journal,
[6:50] S3: the prestigious and titular Peck and Peck in New York
[6:53] S3: in 1982. What came to you first? Obviously, you were
[6:57] S3: interested in exploring poetry and the role of art, but
[7:02] S3: was it character, the voice? Was it the peck and
[7:04] S3: peck office setting, which is this kind of fantastical world?
[7:07] S2: It was the Peck and Peck office building. You know,
[7:10] S2: as I walk around cities and I, you know, as
[7:13] S2: I live in England, I think more and more we
[7:16] S2: see the same thing over and over. We see another
[7:18] S2: Kentucky Fried Chicken or another Starbucks or whatever. And there, there,
[7:23] S2: there's this creeping conformity that's been going on a long
[7:26] S2: time around the world where we go for the familiar. Um,
[7:31] S2: and I wanted to create a building that was unfamiliar,
[7:34] S2: much like it's not like the Sagrada Familia, but it's
[7:38] S2: like that there's only one in the world. And I
[7:41] S2: love the idea of creating something that there's only one
[7:44] S2: in the world. And that's a lot like poetry. The
[7:47] S2: building is renegade, like poetry. It's emotional, like poetry. It's
[7:51] S2: one of a kind. And so I really wanted to
[7:54] S2: go back to this idea because I think right now
[7:57] S2: with AI, there is so much conformity and it's very scary.
[8:01] S2: You know, voices are being lost every day. Um, that
[8:05] S2: I really wanted to explore. It's not really so much
[8:08] S2: as poetry as the arts and the culture that brings
[8:11] S2: us all together and makes our lives worth living. And
[8:15] S2: so the, the building was the start of that.
[8:17] S3: And in Peck and Peck, as I mentioned, there's a
[8:20] S3: lot of dysfunction. And at the heart of that is
[8:22] S3: kind of this battle between, you know, commercial imperative and
[8:26] S3: artistic integrity. Do you think those two things can ever
[8:29] S3: happily coexist?
[8:31] S2: You know, I think that they they've always been at
[8:33] S2: each other's throats, but the world has become much more
[8:37] S2: much more devoted to technology in a way that worries me. Uh, and,
[8:41] S2: and now technology has decided that it's going to take
[8:44] S2: over the arts and do the arts for us as well.
[8:46] S2: I don't want them to do the arts for, for us.
[8:49] S2: They're not artists and they don't have that ability to
[8:53] S2: do it in the same way. And so I do
[8:56] S2: worry a lot that that this idea that technology can
[9:00] S2: do everything is really, really misguided. But yeah, I think
[9:05] S2: these two things have always been at odds. There's always
[9:08] S2: been a belief and my character believes that, you know,
[9:11] S2: you're supposed to get a good job. You're supposed to
[9:14] S2: get a job as a lawyer or in accounting or
[9:18] S2: somewhere where you can make a living. And I certainly
[9:21] S2: understand that. Um, you know, and if I, I have
[9:24] S2: two kids and if one of them had come home
[9:27] S2: and said, you know, I've decided to become a poet
[9:30] S2: for my living, I would have said, oh, how interesting. Um,
[9:35] S2: but you have to do something else as well. So yeah,
[9:40] S2: I think there's always this push pull, but it turns
[9:42] S2: out the arts are every bit as vital as anything
[9:46] S2: else as medicine or history or. Well, history is one
[9:50] S2: of the arts, but I think medicine or being a
[9:52] S2: lawyer or math science, they're all vital.
[9:56] S3: And there is something absurd, but also incredibly touching about
[10:00] S3: your character, about a Grey's obsession with poetry, as well
[10:03] S3: as many of the staff who work at Peck and Peck.
[10:05] S3: Do you think we need more people who care unreasonably,
[10:09] S3: deeply about the arts? Is that the antidote to the
[10:12] S3: the role of technology now?
[10:14] S2: Yeah, I think so. You know, it occurred to me
[10:17] S2: as I was writing this book that it would be
[10:18] S2: just bizarre if it was poetry was the one thing
[10:21] S2: that ended up saving us poetry. The least admired, least
[10:25] S2: read art, uh, would be the one that would step
[10:28] S2: forward and say, here's, here's what we need to do.
[10:32] S2: The strange thing about poetry is that it's incredibly honest.
[10:36] S2: And right now we live in a very dishonest age.
[10:39] S2: And so what I think is amazing is, you know,
[10:42] S2: poets have been warning us about the future for hundreds
[10:46] S2: or thousands of years, really. I mean, just from the
[10:48] S2: very beginning of time. and they have a lot to
[10:52] S2: say in a very short space about what we can do.
[10:55] S2: And so for me, I thought, wouldn't it be great if,
[10:59] S2: if it was a poet that ended up saving the
[11:02] S2: world the most, you know, overlooked artisan out there.
[11:06] S3: And I have to ask about that gray. The name
[11:09] S3: causes much hilarity and confusion in the book. Tell me
[11:13] S3: about how you came up with that name and why
[11:15] S3: you wanted to make it such an ongoing point of
[11:18] S3: discussion throughout the novel.
[11:20] S2: Well, I wanted him to have a name he hated.
[11:23] S2: And you know, it's not a good name. Batter is
[11:25] S2: a terrible name, but he was named after you. Find
[11:28] S2: out on the first page. He's been named after a
[11:30] S2: dead dog, which is, you know, not great. Um, and
[11:34] S2: no one can believe that's his name. So they're constantly
[11:36] S2: calling him other things. They mix it up with Baxter
[11:40] S2: or Banner things that sound more like a real name.
[11:44] S2: And so he's always not sure who he is. And
[11:47] S2: getting his name wrong is part of that. There are
[11:49] S2: a lot of people, I think, who are lost in
[11:52] S2: the world. There are a lot of young people right
[11:54] S2: now who aren't sure what they should be going into
[11:56] S2: or studying, who aren't sure what they should be reaching for.
[12:00] S2: But by the same token, I have a lot of friends,
[12:04] S2: even retirees, who look back and say, did I do
[12:07] S2: the right thing? It's a question that all of us,
[12:09] S2: I think, ask at one point or another. But so
[12:13] S2: many people are afraid to say, I don't know if
[12:16] S2: I'm doing the right thing. I'm a little lost. And
[12:19] S2: I think he is our everyman. He's saying I'm lost
[12:23] S2: and I'm not sure what to do. And the thing
[12:25] S2: I want to do isn't really a job reading poetry.
[12:29] S2: Is that a job?
[12:30] S3: And have you felt that way about writing novels? Because
[12:33] S3: I know before you published lessons in chemistry when you
[12:35] S3: were 65, and it's gone on to become this phenomenal bestseller,
[12:39] S3: 7 million copies around the world and a hit TV series,
[12:42] S3: you worked across all kinds of different writings, technological writing, advertising.
[12:46] S3: Did you ever kind of wonder whether. Whether, you know,
[12:51] S3: novel writing was something you should be doing instead.
[12:54] S2: Oh, I was always doing it. You know, it's just
[12:56] S2: like in Hollywood. You know how every star has a
[12:58] S2: script in their drawer? Uh, in copywriting and advertising, every copywriter,
[13:03] S2: every creative director has a book in their drawer. Um,
[13:07] S2: it's not that you don't want to do it. It's
[13:09] S2: that it doesn't pay. You can't survive. 99% of all
[13:13] S2: writers don't make more than minimum wage. I just read
[13:17] S2: a horrible statistic yesterday that said 54% of traditionally published
[13:24] S2: writers make less than $1,000 a year. So it's more
[13:29] S2: a sensibility that, you know, you have to remember that
[13:35] S2: not everybody. I was very lucky to have a best seller.
[13:37] S2: Let's face it, you know. And now we're almost up
[13:40] S2: to 10 million copies around the world. I am extremely
[13:43] S2: lucky to have hit this, but does it happen very often.
[13:47] S2: No it doesn't. And so I have to. People think
[13:51] S2: I'm crazy, but I still work outside of novels. Um,
[13:55] S2: I know a Pulitzer Prize winner who still holds a
[13:58] S2: full time job because you cannot depend on this job
[14:02] S2: for your for your security.
[14:04] S3: And before lessons in chemistry, is it right? There were
[14:06] S3: a few or at least one big epic novel that
[14:09] S3: kind of attracted quite a few rejection letters is 98, right?
[14:13] S2: Yeah, yeah, I was going for the world's record, but I.
[14:16] S2: According to poets, 98 is amateur hour. Uh, poets get
[14:20] S2: rejected much more than that. Um, but yeah, I, I
[14:23] S2: kept submitting this thing and it was a behemoth. It
[14:26] S2: was 700 pages long. And, um, I hadn't done my
[14:30] S2: research because if I had, I would have known that
[14:34] S2: nobody in the world wants to publish a 700 page
[14:38] S2: novel by an unknown writer. And I found that out
[14:42] S2: the hard way. Um, and once I learned that important lesson.
[14:47] S2: I went shorter and I wrote a completely different book.
[14:50] S3: So you had to kind of cater what you were
[14:53] S3: writing to your audience in the market. Is there any
[14:56] S3: kind of irony in that, given that that is kind
[14:59] S3: of what battle gray and the cast of characters and
[15:01] S3: Peck and Peck are dealing with?
[15:03] S2: The matter is, he wants to be a poet. I
[15:06] S2: think there are so many people who want to be writers.
[15:09] S2: I know, you know, I, I mean, I was kind
[15:11] S2: of lucky with my job because I did get to
[15:13] S2: write every day. And that is really important practice. But
[15:18] S2: there are lots of writers who want to be writers
[15:20] S2: who don't write. Um, and I completely understand that too.
[15:26] S2: There's no shame in it. But if you don't write,
[15:29] S2: you're really not a writer. And AI does not make
[15:31] S2: you a writer. So I think, you know, it's, um,
[15:34] S2: for me, batter has to decide if he's going to
[15:38] S2: put in the effort to become a poet or if
[15:41] S2: he's going to put in more effort, which is what
[15:43] S2: he ends up doing and becoming a curator. And that's
[15:46] S2: what an editor is. They're curators. They're the ones who
[15:50] S2: are determining for us what we're going to hear in
[15:52] S2: the world. It's an extremely important and I think, undersung job. Um,
[15:59] S2: and that's why at Peck and Peck, they have 39 editors,
[16:02] S2: not just 2 or 3. They have 39 because they
[16:05] S2: don't want to miss anything that's potentially good that they
[16:08] S2: just didn't understand because they didn't have the culture of
[16:11] S2: the background in it.
[16:12] S3: And I guess that's where it speaks to kind of
[16:14] S3: the role of large language models who I guess the
[16:17] S3: risk is that they become the editors of today's culture.
[16:20] S2: The editors and the writers. It's one singular voice, and
[16:23] S2: that is very dangerous. That's fascism.
[16:26] S3: Is there a reason why you wanted to kind of
[16:28] S3: use the setting in the past to explore this, rather
[16:30] S3: than a contemporary setting?
[16:32] S2: Yeah, I decided to put it in the 80s because
[16:35] S2: that's right before computers completely took over. It was a
[16:39] S2: sort of not halcyon age, but it was this sort
[16:42] S2: of age where we still had control of things, where
[16:46] S2: we still knew what was good and what was bad, where,
[16:49] S2: you know, we had we respected editors, we respected art curators,
[16:55] S2: we respected musicians and writers for their crafts. Um, and
[17:00] S2: so I wanted to put that then, but I also want,
[17:02] S2: I had to do it before apps came around because
[17:06] S2: I also wanted to do it before cell phones so
[17:09] S2: that in there's a romance in the book and I
[17:13] S2: wanted it to be in the age where you still,
[17:16] S2: when you're on the bus or on the subway or
[17:18] S2: on the tube, you're maybe you're reading, but you're also
[17:22] S2: looking at people. And now people, they don't look at
[17:26] S2: each other. They just look at their phones.
[17:28] S3: Yes, it's very true. And there is that great moment
[17:31] S3: when battery gets a poem published on a on a bus,
[17:34] S3: and he notices all the people looking at it to his,
[17:36] S3: to his horror.
[17:37] S2: Yeah. Yeah, exactly.
[17:48] S3: You mentioned you, uh, you were an editor and you
[17:51] S3: probably drew on some of that experience for this book. Um,
[17:55] S3: what was your experience of being an editor like, and
[17:57] S3: how do you find kind of flexing that muscle compared
[17:59] S3: to flexing the writing one?
[18:01] S2: I wasn't an editor, to be honest. I was a copywriter.
[18:05] S2: People always confuse those two. I worked as a science
[18:08] S2: editor for a very short period of time, but I
[18:10] S2: don't think you can really count it. I mean, really,
[18:12] S2: all I was doing was filing papers and, um, but
[18:16] S2: I think, um, in terms of writing, uh, you know,
[18:21] S2: in advertising, there's an enormous amount of rejection in all writing.
[18:25] S2: There's an enormous amount of rejection and it's very, very
[18:29] S2: good training for novel writing. You have to be really
[18:32] S2: tough to keep wanting to go ahead and maintain your
[18:36] S2: status in writing, whether it's as a copywriter or writing
[18:39] S2: manuals or writing content today or whatever it is. um,
[18:43] S2: trying to get people to take you seriously. But also
[18:47] S2: advertising is really great in one way. You get immediate
[18:50] S2: feedback and not from a handful of people. You get
[18:54] S2: immediate feedback from the world on whether what your concept
[18:58] S2: is working. And so for me, uh, you know, I,
[19:02] S2: I felt very lucky to be employed as a copywriter
[19:05] S2: and have my career there. Um, and I'm following the
[19:09] S2: footsteps of, you know, so many people I admire. Salman
[19:13] S2: Rushdie was a copywriter. So was Fitzgerald, Joseph Heller, Kurt Vonnegut.
[19:17] S2: The list is so long, it looks like a prerequisite
[19:20] S2: for writing a novel. And I, I understand why, and
[19:24] S2: when I came out with lessons in Chemistry, my fellow
[19:28] S2: copywriters said, oh, you wrote it exactly like a copywriter would.
[19:33] S2: And we all know what that meant.
[19:34] S3: Wow. And Lessons in Chemistry, which follows Elizabeth Zott, who, um,
[19:38] S3: leaves her career as a chemist and starts a cooking show.
[19:41] S3: At what point did you realize that novel had become
[19:44] S3: something much bigger than maybe you ever imagined?
[19:48] S2: It took a very, very long time. I never saw
[19:52] S2: anyone reading it in public. I, I was in a
[19:54] S2: bookstore one time and I saw a woman pick it up,
[19:57] S2: read the back and put it back. You know, it's
[19:59] S2: like I in my opinion, it hadn't sold any copies.
[20:04] S2: And I was so surprised when people kept saying, oh,
[20:06] S2: I've read that book. And I thought, what? You know.
[20:09] S2: And so I'm embarrassed to say it took a couple
[20:12] S2: years for me to really understand. Even when I had
[20:16] S2: a movie deal, a series deal, it still didn't feel real. Uh,
[20:21] S2: and then it, and then it very slowly unfolded. But
[20:24] S2: it's not like, you know, I'm not recognized in public. It's,
[20:28] S2: it's not that kind of, of fame. It's just that
[20:32] S2: that book did a lot better than I thought it
[20:34] S2: was going to do.
[20:35] S3: Did that level of success change your relationship with writing
[20:38] S3: at all?
[20:39] S2: No. Uh, I still write everything the same way. As
[20:43] S2: if I were working on an assignment for work. And
[20:46] S2: that really works for me, because it's not so much
[20:48] S2: that I need the structure of a working day. But
[20:51] S2: I know that there are going to be days of failure.
[20:54] S2: I know that there are going to be days when
[20:56] S2: I just don't write well, or I can't think of
[20:58] S2: exactly what I want to say. And that's okay. And
[21:01] S2: I will just wait and be patient and wait for
[21:04] S2: that voice to come back.
[21:05] S3: Can you talk us through a day when you're writing
[21:08] S3: a novel?
[21:09] S2: Yeah, yeah. I get up pretty early, around 5 a.m.
[21:12] S2: the thing I like to do best is I write.
[21:15] S2: Now I have an enormous cup of coffee next to me. I, um,
[21:19] S2: I make some coffee and I start right in. I
[21:23] S2: look at what I had written the day before, and
[21:27] S2: I always rewrite it. Um, it can always be improved.
[21:30] S2: Everything I write can be improved. I never people think
[21:34] S2: I'm crazy, but, you know, they say I did three
[21:36] S2: drafts of my novel. MM. I did 50. You know,
[21:39] S2: I people think I like I'm really slow or whatever,
[21:42] S2: but I think, you know, it's me chipping away to
[21:46] S2: get at the sculpture underneath. It takes me a while
[21:50] S2: to get there. So I write for a few hours,
[21:53] S2: I rewrite and then I, I listen very carefully to
[21:56] S2: my characters and I try to represent them accurately on
[22:00] S2: the page. And in this particular book, a lot of
[22:04] S2: the characters are, well, at least three of them are
[22:07] S2: larger than life. And that was intentional because they seem absurd,
[22:13] S2: because they are absurd, because we live in an absurd world.
[22:16] S2: So they're not really absurd, are they? This is our
[22:19] S2: this is our day to day now of people who
[22:22] S2: are running companies that shouldn't be running companies.
[22:26] S3: Yes, they're larger than life, but as you say, extremely recognizable.
[22:29] S3: It could be 2026.
[22:32] S2: I know, I know, I know.
[22:34] S3: Did you have any nerves about writing? Um, Peck and
[22:37] S3: peck after the success of of lessons in chemistry, I didn't.
[22:41] S2: I mean, I am the most naive person in the world.
[22:44] S2: I had started peck and peck um, before lessons in
[22:48] S2: chemistry and then I, it was only a few, you know, ideas.
[22:51] S2: It wasn't very well formed. And then when I came
[22:53] S2: back to it on an airplane, it was when I
[22:56] S2: was on tour for lessons in chemistry. And suddenly I
[23:00] S2: was deep in this world of peck and peck. And
[23:03] S2: that's one of the reasons why lessons in chemistry felt surreal,
[23:07] S2: because in my brain I thought, well, I've done that.
[23:09] S2: I'm already on this other thing. And I would go
[23:12] S2: to events and people would say, oh, this character did this.
[23:17] S2: And I think, what was that character's name? Because I'm
[23:20] S2: in Peck and Peck, and that's not the book you
[23:22] S2: have in front of you, but that's the book that's
[23:24] S2: in front of me. Um, but yeah, no, it was strange.
[23:28] S2: It was a strange process, but I didn't ever think
[23:31] S2: about anything other than what it is. I wanted to say,
[23:35] S2: what I was worried about in the world and what
[23:38] S2: a what it was I wanted to write.
[23:40] S3: And on the surface, poetry and chemistry might seem quite,
[23:43] S3: quite different subjects, but is there anything that connects these
[23:46] S3: two books for you?
[23:47] S2: Yes, they're both extremely complicated. And had I known that
[23:50] S2: chemistry was that hard to learn, I'm not sure I
[23:53] S2: would have pursued it. And ditto maybe even more for poetry.
[23:58] S2: It it was so much harder and so much more
[24:02] S2: complicated than I'd ever imagined. And once I got into
[24:05] S2: it and I saw how many forms it takes, how
[24:08] S2: many dialects it takes, the shape of it, the sound
[24:12] S2: of it, the meter of it. It is unbelievably complex.
[24:16] S2: And I realized how important this specific art is for
[24:21] S2: one important reason. Poetry has been with us from the
[24:25] S2: very beginning. It has never died out. It. No one.
[24:29] S2: Very few people read poetry is still alive today. So
[24:33] S2: why is that? And the more I, I research poetry.
[24:39] S2: The more I realized that poetry evolves and it continually
[24:44] S2: escapes extinction. And this is a lesson I think we
[24:48] S2: better learn very quickly from the poets, because they know
[24:53] S2: how to evolve and morph into something new and still
[24:56] S2: say innovative and fresh things.
[24:59] S3: And what kind of research did you do apart from
[25:02] S3: reading and studying about poetry? Did you go to any
[25:05] S3: poetry journals? Interview a lot of poets or poetry editors.
[25:09] S2: I have quite a few poet friends. Um, and they
[25:13] S2: were mostly, you know, my friends who go. Okay. So
[25:16] S2: I got rejected, you know, 900 times for this poem. Um,
[25:20] S2: you know, they were always very quick to, to warn
[25:22] S2: me that being a poet is a lot harder than
[25:24] S2: being a novelist. And guess what? I have to agree
[25:26] S2: with them. Uh, it's a higher bar in some ways.
[25:30] S2: There is a belief that everyone can write poetry. And
[25:34] S2: it's not true. It actually requires an incredible ear and
[25:39] S2: an ability to sense meter and motion. Most people don't
[25:44] S2: quite understand that when we say we learn something by
[25:47] S2: heart that comes from poetry. Poetry is based on the heartbeat,
[25:52] S2: and that's why it resonates when it's read correctly, out loud. Uh,
[25:57] S2: and so I, I think there's so much between chemistry
[26:01] S2: and poetry that is alike. They're both vital to our,
[26:06] S2: our lives on earth. And I, you know, chemistry is
[26:10] S2: more obvious. Poetry is less obvious. But that's where the
[26:15] S2: culture comes from. Mhm.
[26:17] S3: And have you tried writing poetry or did you write
[26:20] S3: poetry in the course of this book, or have you
[26:22] S3: always stuck to fiction?
[26:23] S2: I have never wanted to be a poet. I wrote
[26:26] S2: one poem, uh, in my class when I was 14.
[26:30] S2: I wrote one poem, and I turned it in. And my, uh,
[26:34] S2: professor obviously wasn't impressed with it. I didn't enjoy writing it.
[26:39] S2: I didn't have anything to say in poetry. And I
[26:43] S2: think the really good poets, they always have something to say.
[26:46] S2: And the novelists, too. They have something to say. I
[26:49] S2: was more of a long form person than an economical writer.
[26:53] S2: That you need to be as a poet.
[26:56] S3: And writing this book hasn't changed your mind.
[26:59] S2: No. It's so hard. It's so hard. There are so
[27:02] S2: many poets that I admire, and I can't do what
[27:05] S2: they do. And I recognize that.
[27:07] S3: And poetry, I think as as you've alluded to and
[27:09] S3: is an ongoing discussion in the book, has a bit
[27:11] S3: of this kind of sometimes perception that it's not for
[27:15] S3: the every person that it's a, you know, it's hard
[27:18] S3: to understand. And one of the characters in Peck and Peck,
[27:21] S3: you know, wants to publish a pop star because they
[27:24] S3: think that that will make poetry seem more approachable to
[27:27] S3: other people who haven't been introduced to the form yet.
[27:30] S3: I mean, how do you think poetry counteracts that problem
[27:33] S3: and what can be done to kind of bring more
[27:35] S3: people into the world and love of poetry?
[27:38] S2: Oh, I think it would be great if we had
[27:40] S2: teachers who were supported every day in reading a poem
[27:43] S2: a day to their classroom. You know, and that's what
[27:45] S2: I got. That's what I got when I was 14.
[27:48] S2: I can't believe how long that lived in my soul.
[27:50] S2: What he did, you know, the poems that he read
[27:53] S2: to us, I still remember. That's why that day on
[27:57] S2: the radio so many decades later, I went, well, that's
[28:00] S2: Nikki Giovanni. That's laws of motion. Oh, that's Langston Hughes,
[28:03] S2: that's mother to son. I knew it immediately because he
[28:07] S2: had taught us those poems. And so I think it
[28:10] S2: would be great if we could bring it back into
[28:13] S2: the classroom because children, especially children, um, are these little
[28:18] S2: vessels of untapped imagination. And it would be great for
[28:23] S2: him to hear this language that isn't just set in
[28:27] S2: a sentence. Um, isn't just a tale that has an ending,
[28:31] S2: but is open ended, has so much possibility within it.
[28:34] S2: And I love to hear children interpret what they think
[28:38] S2: they've heard, because all of their explanations are wildly different.
[28:41] S2: That's the best part, you know, that that kind of
[28:45] S2: imagination you still seeing coming out of children, which here
[28:48] S2: I go again. But AI is definitely trying to remove
[28:51] S2: because they give kids now Chromebooks and they say Chromebook
[28:56] S2: will help you create your story. Well, no, it writes
[28:59] S2: it for them. It it tells them their voice is
[29:02] S2: not good enough to be trusted with a story or
[29:05] S2: a poem. That's not true.
[29:07] S3: Do you think that there's any role for AI in
[29:10] S3: creative practice?
[29:11] S2: No. I don't think technologists, they can be very creative people.
[29:16] S2: They're not writers. They're not artists. They're not actors. They're
[29:18] S2: not musicians. They should not be in charge of the arts.
[29:22] S2: We have a newscaster in, uh, in our government right
[29:27] S2: now who's in charge of our Department of War. He's
[29:30] S2: not a soldier he knows nothing about anything to do
[29:34] S2: with this, you know. We already know that it's really
[29:37] S2: important to respect people's skills. And I think what we
[29:41] S2: are seeing is a general lack of, you know, a
[29:44] S2: disregard for other people's ability to produce things. Um, I
[29:49] S2: don't want to listen to AI music. I don't want
[29:52] S2: to hear an AI generated poem. I think people will say, well,
[29:55] S2: what if it's good? What if you couldn't tell the difference?
[29:58] S2: That's not the point. One of the points is that
[30:01] S2: it's based 100% on stolen material, and that alone makes
[30:06] S2: everyone who uses AI complicit. You are now raising children
[30:12] S2: to think that stealing is okay, and then they use it.
[30:16] S2: I don't particularly like knowing that lessons in chemistry and
[30:19] S2: everything else I've written has been scraped and used, because
[30:24] S2: that means now I'm involved with that and I never
[30:27] S2: chose that.
[30:28] S3: And have you been involved in the in the court
[30:30] S3: cases over there for lessons of chemistry.
[30:33] S2: You know, interestingly enough, anthropic stopped, didn't scrape my well,
[30:38] S2: now it's scraped, but they didn't scrape it in time
[30:42] S2: to be part of their lawsuit. But yes, I've been
[30:45] S2: very interested in pursuing all of this. I think, though, that,
[30:48] S2: you know, it's for me, it's wrong what they did,
[30:51] S2: but it has so many more repercussions, more repercussions than
[30:55] S2: just getting I, I, it's not like I want to
[30:57] S2: get paid as much as I want. I want them
[31:01] S2: to stop doing what they're doing. You know, people keep thinking, well,
[31:04] S2: it's just sour grapes at these, these writers are feeling
[31:09] S2: like they were they were ripped off. Well, they were
[31:11] S2: ripped off. But it goes it goes beyond that. I
[31:14] S2: feel like our work is being used to make entire
[31:18] S2: generations dumb. And that's one of the problems, is that
[31:23] S2: we have seen over and over studies that show AI
[31:27] S2: creates cognitive atrophy. That's another word for creating stupidity and
[31:33] S2: Gen Z. These generations don't deserve this. But now their
[31:37] S2: IQs are lower than any other generation in history. And
[31:40] S2: that's not fair. It's not fair that they've that they've
[31:43] S2: been exposed to this. And luckily they're fighting back. I'm
[31:48] S2: proud of these younger generations. They're fighting against this.
[31:51] S3: And there's so much optimism in Peck and Peck. But
[31:55] S3: do you feel that optimism in real life about the
[31:57] S3: state of culture and arts?
[31:59] S2: I do. You know, it's really great. I love going
[32:03] S2: on tour and I often go to universities and I
[32:06] S2: talk to young people. I, you know, when people say, well,
[32:09] S2: I don't know about Gen Z or the millennials or whatever,
[32:12] S2: I think I do a lot of these kids are
[32:15] S2: so smart, you know, and they're so dedicated. And I
[32:18] S2: think that these are the kids that are going to
[32:20] S2: really make things right. They have a huge job in
[32:23] S2: front of them. They read and they are refusing that conformity.
[32:28] S2: They're there refusing the ease, the refusing the cognitive offload
[32:32] S2: to let you know a machine do their thinking for them.
[32:35] S2: They've woken up and they will continue, I think, to
[32:39] S2: wake up their friends and and I think hopefully this
[32:43] S2: will change AI for the better. Because, you know, the
[32:47] S2: reality is people go, well, what are you against a
[32:49] S2: cure for cancer? That's not what LLMs do. That's not
[32:54] S2: Gen AI. In fact, there was a program called AlphaFold
[32:58] S2: that came out of Google that was supposed to be
[33:00] S2: a protein identifier, and that was supposed to help us
[33:04] S2: cure cancer. Well, it didn't work. It doesn't mean that
[33:07] S2: it won't work in the future. But when people think
[33:10] S2: of AI and they want to say something like, you know,
[33:13] S2: it's the future, not this rendition, this is sloppy, this
[33:17] S2: is bad.
[33:18] S3: And what would be your advice to all the batter
[33:21] S3: grays out there, young or old?
[33:23] S2: I think everybody feels at some point in their career
[33:26] S2: or in their lives, they're a little lost. You know,
[33:29] S2: they think, did I do the right thing? Should I?
[33:31] S2: Should I have gone into a different field? I know
[33:33] S2: I thought that myself, um, but even now, you know,
[33:37] S2: when I talk with some of my friends and they think,
[33:39] S2: why did I spend my whole life in finance, you know, or,
[33:42] S2: or whatever, you have choices to make. And sometimes those
[33:46] S2: choices are very difficult and they're based a lot on
[33:50] S2: income and how you survive, but you do have choices
[33:54] S2: for what you can do, and you just have to
[33:56] S2: be strong enough to stand up for what you believe in.
[33:59] S2: And it's really important to know that you are not
[34:03] S2: alone and it is okay to be different.
[34:06] S3: And we started this conversation talking about obsession, and it's
[34:09] S3: been a theme throughout. Um, maybe to wrap us up,
[34:13] S3: you could tell us, do you know what obsessions coming
[34:15] S3: next for you?
[34:16] S2: I do, but I can't tell you about it because
[34:18] S2: it may change into another obsession of mine. You know,
[34:21] S2: I love to write about things that I'm passionate about,
[34:24] S2: and it turns out that I'm passionate about a lot
[34:27] S2: of things. And right now it's I'm I'm very passionate
[34:30] S2: about that. Poetry has a real place in our society. Um,
[34:34] S2: but more to the point that AI is wrong for
[34:37] S2: us right now. It's not doing the job. It's scary. Um,
[34:42] S2: but yeah, I do have, uh, you know, people always say, well,
[34:46] S2: you know, how do you get your ideas? I, I
[34:50] S2: don't know, I have too many. And I guess I'm
[34:52] S2: mad about a lot of things. So.
[34:56] S3: Is there a moment when you know to yourself, okay,
[34:59] S3: this is it. There's enough here for a book or
[35:01] S3: this is what I want to spend years writing about.
[35:04] S3: Or it's not that much of a light bulb moment.
[35:06] S3: It more is an organic thing that develops.
[35:08] S2: You know, what it is is I'll start writing and
[35:11] S2: then some character will come to me in a very
[35:15] S2: strong way, and I'll hear their voice and, and they're saying,
[35:19] S2: I have something to say. And then that's where it
[35:22] S2: comes from. So right now, the idea that I have,
[35:25] S2: I have this character that says, I have something to say.
[35:29] S2: I want you to hear this. I want you to
[35:31] S2: know about this. And I get a feeling that's what
[35:34] S2: I'm going to follow. But I'm not 100% sure yet.
[35:37] S3: And not to put you on the spot, but is
[35:39] S3: there one one of the favorite poems that you've read
[35:42] S3: of late that you would advise listeners who maybe don't
[35:45] S3: dabble in poetry too much to, to look up?
[35:48] S2: Yeah, there is one. It's called How to Be a
[35:50] S2: Poet by Wendell Berry. Uh, he he's, um, you know,
[35:55] S2: he was a great poet. And it's really interesting because
[35:58] S2: like I said, a lot of people feel like they
[36:00] S2: can write poetry and I want people to write poetry.
[36:03] S2: I want them to experiment. But I also want them
[36:05] S2: to know that your first draft, isn't it that this
[36:09] S2: is a craft, you know, this, this is an art.
[36:11] S2: And so you have to practice it. And this particular
[36:15] S2: poem is something that I feel like this is the
[36:18] S2: sort of thing you could read out loud to kids,
[36:20] S2: and they would get it immediately. And I, and I
[36:23] S2: love that because it's saying you should doubt yourself. You
[36:27] S2: should be critical of yourself, but you should be yourself.
[36:30] S2: You should sit still and be quiet in this moment
[36:34] S2: and listen. And I love that.
[36:37] S3: And that's a perfect accompaniment to our reading Peck and
[36:39] S3: peck as well. Bonnie, thank you so much for joining
[36:42] S3: us on Good Weekend Talks.
[36:43] S2: Oh, thank you for having me, I loved it.
[36:48] S1: To enjoy more in-depth journalism from the latest edition of
[36:51] S1: Good Weekend, visit us at theage.com.au or smh.com.au. This episode
[36:57] S1: was produced by Konrad Marshall and edited by Tim Mummery,
[37:01] S1: with technical assistance from Kai Wong. Our executive producer is
[37:05] S1: Tammy Mills. Lisa Muxworthy and Tom Mackendrick oversee our podcasts,
[37:09] S1: and Melissa Stevens is the editor of Good Weekend. If
[37:13] S1: you enjoyed this episode, follow our podcast and leave us
[37:15] S1: a review on Apple or Spotify. And thanks for listening.

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