# The Future of Warfare | EYES ON GEOPOLITICS

An episode of [The Team House](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1492797340), 16 Apr 2026, 1 h 09 min.

Audio: https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/pscrb.fm/rss/p/clrtpod.com/m/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/71357905/future_of_warefare_spreaker.mp3

This episode explores the future of warfare, focusing on drone technology, countermeasures, AI ethics, and innovative military strategies. Guests with special operations backgrounds discuss current challenges and solutions in modern combat, emphasizing rapid innovation and technological adaptation. Lobo Institute: https://www.loboinstitute.org/ Support the show on Patreon:⬇️ https://www.patreon.com/TheTeamHouse Subscribe to our new newsletter!!!! https://teamhousepodcast.kit.com/join Jack's news outlet: https://thehighside.substack.com/ Find Jon Hackett here:⬇️ Jon's Twitter: https://x.com/jonathanhackett Jon's LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/thejonathanhackett Jon's books: https://www.amazon.com/stores/author/B0C5L659N5?ccs_id=e11a2062-f8d3-498e-bfd7-7d2f3869caf6 Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/thejonathanhackett Twitter: https://x.com/jonathanhackett Check out Mick's new podcast here:⬇️ Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/at/podcast/pub-and-porch-applied-stoicism/id1836955475 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/1k3QPmkAMwnGJxMLDwUSSd?si=n6piIu8XRcag1Z0K43A3bQ Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@UCd0Hq6QFk8CoTu5j-VU0Ong Find Mick Mulroy here: Fogbow ⬇️ https://fogbow.com/ Lobo Institute ⬇️ https://www.loboinstitute.org/ Twitter ⬇️ https://x.com/mickmulroy?s=21&t=-Ze3F_Ix2vlJ18KFvORTCA LinkedIn ⬇️ https://www.linkedin.com/in/michael-patrick-mulroy-31198b52/ Bluesky ⬇️ https://bsky.app/profile/mickmulroy.bsky.social Mick’s publications ⬇️ https://www.loboinstitute.org/publications/publications-of-michael-mick-patrick-mulroy/ Find Marc P here: https://x.com/Mpolymer Find Andy Milburn here: Twitter ⬇️ https://twitter.com/i/flow/login?redirect_after_login=%2Fandymilburn8 LinkedIn ⬇️ https://www.linkedin.com/in/andrewmilburn2023 Substack ⬇️ https://amilburn.substack.com/ Andy’s book ⬇️ https://www.amazon.com/When-Tempest-Gathers-Mogadishu-Operations Bluesky ⬇️ https://bsky.app/profile/andy-milburn.bsky.social Find Jason Lyons here: LinkedIn ⬇️ https://www.linkedin.com/in/jason-lyons-666873316?u Bluesky ⬇️ https://bsky.app/profile/bgsilverback73.bsky.social "Karl Casey @ White Bat Audio" 00:00 Start 01:04 Countering Drone Threats 07:50 The Role of Electronic Warfare 12:27 Innovation in Military Tactics 16:05 AI and Autonomous Targeting 22:43 Ethics in Drone Warfare 24:45 The Technology Behind Drones 26:58 Drones in Communication and Coordination 35:50 Innovations in Tactical Employment 38:02 The Role of Unmanned Ground Vehicles 39:11 Maritime Capabilities and Underwater Drones 41:22 Debating the Future of Aircraft Carriers 47:23 Political Polarization and Defense Budgeting 51:47 The Need for Innovation in Military Technology 54:20 Lobo Tactical and Training Innovations 01:01:58 Addressing Child Soldiering Issues Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-team-house--5960890/support.

## Transcript

[0:00] Speaker 1: Hey, everybody, welcome to another episode of Eyes On Geopolitics.
[0:03] Speaker 1: We've got a special one today. We're joined by John Hackett,
[0:07] Speaker 1: Eric Ulrich, Scott c Scott. What's your last name?
[0:10] Speaker 2: Man?
[0:10] Speaker 3: Because I only see Scott Scott c Scott Canino. Most
[0:14] Speaker 3: people can't pronounce it or spell it, so see works okay? Cool?
[0:17] Speaker 1: Yeah, Scott Casino. They're both with Lobo Institute. They do
[0:21] Speaker 1: a lot of work with our guy Mick Mulroy. They're
[0:24] Speaker 1: right now at the white Fish Security Summit happening this weekend.
[0:28] Speaker 1: I think today's last. Tomorrow is the last day.
[0:31] Speaker 2: Right, yeah, yeah, so it's basically Thursday through Saturday.
[0:35] Speaker 3: Cool.
[0:35] Speaker 1: Yeah, it's gonna be happening every year. So I want
[0:37] Speaker 1: you guys to go to the link down in the description.
[0:41] Speaker 1: Check it out there for future future events. Super exciting,
[0:46] Speaker 1: and I think the team house and eyes On crew
[0:48] Speaker 1: is gonna be out there for year or two, so
[0:50] Speaker 1: it's gonna be It's gonna be fun. Guys, Thanks for
[0:54] Speaker 1: joining us, really appreciate it.
[0:56] Speaker 3: Yeah, happy to be here. Thanks for having us.
[0:59] Speaker 1: Of course. So subject for today is going to be
[1:02] Speaker 1: the future of warfare. Future and also I guess because
[1:05] Speaker 1: you guys are all soft guys, right, former soft guys
[1:08] Speaker 1: with a bit of like a more of like an
[1:11] Speaker 1: eyeball on what like special operations specifically. I mean, we're
[1:14] Speaker 1: seeing what's happening now in the Gulf and stuff and
[1:17] Speaker 1: in our bases around the Middle East with the Shahi drones,
[1:22] Speaker 1: you know, blowing up the three centuries in case he
[1:24] Speaker 1: won thirty fives injuring and killing servicemen. I definitely want
[1:30] Speaker 1: to start off with, like, how do we what can
[1:32] Speaker 1: we do to counter that drone threat? And why isn't
[1:36] Speaker 1: it happening already? That's my question because it's it seems
[1:40] Speaker 1: a little you know, we're like moving in molasses a
[1:44] Speaker 1: little bit in terms of like, you know, defending ourselves essentially,
[1:48] Speaker 1: for lack of a better term.
[1:49] Speaker 3: Do you want to us can?
[1:52] Speaker 1: My thing is like you guys could mud wrestle for it.
[1:54] Speaker 1: Whoever wants to take it first?
[1:56] Speaker 2: Easy, okay, So d I'll take that one an racle
[2:01] Speaker 2: right here. Thanks for having us on. It's a pleasure
[2:05] Speaker 2: to be able to do this from the White Fisher
[2:06] Speaker 2: Security Summit, and you know we'll get this going specifically
[2:13] Speaker 2: in two thousand and eighteen and nineteen and even a
[2:17] Speaker 2: little bit in seventeen, the drones, the integration of drones
[2:22] Speaker 2: on the battle space really kind of started to take effect.
[2:25] Speaker 2: All the way down to watching you know, Al Shabab
[2:30] Speaker 2: in very remote parts of Somalia testing and integrating drones
[2:36] Speaker 2: into their awareness, and we had to deal with that
[2:40] Speaker 2: on the battlefield. And then you know AQAP and Yemen
[2:45] Speaker 2: they also were integrating and trying to buy DGI drones
[2:49] Speaker 2: and see what they could do with it. As a seal,
[2:53] Speaker 2: I was watching my army brothers in Syria deal with
[2:57] Speaker 2: a much higher level of a threat than what we
[2:59] Speaker 2: were or anything. But it was all the way down
[3:03] Speaker 2: to you know, reports of guys on the wall with
[3:07] Speaker 2: a twelve gage trying to like shoot, trap and skip,
[3:11] Speaker 2: but they are trying to trying to do that was
[3:14] Speaker 2: the most rudimentary counter drone defense that you could think of.
[3:19] Speaker 2: And so that was that was kind of the reality
[3:21] Speaker 2: of what I was watching then. And then now you
[3:24] Speaker 2: go all the way to the Shaheed drones, which are
[3:27] Speaker 2: full motion video guided you know, terminal guidance by it
[3:32] Speaker 2: by a remote controlled operator, and so there's a couple
[3:36] Speaker 2: different ways that you have to defeat the drones. You
[3:39] Speaker 2: either have to defeat, defeat the input signal coming in
[3:43] Speaker 2: through electronic warfare, usually to cut that. So then the
[3:48] Speaker 2: drone is now pilotless. It's they're going to loiter and crash,
[3:51] Speaker 2: or it's going to return base, or you need to
[3:55] Speaker 2: fry the circuitry some sort of directed energy, either a
[3:59] Speaker 2: laser or something of that nature that gets really hard.
[4:03] Speaker 2: Lasers are hard because of the power requirements. It seems
[4:06] Speaker 2: that Israel has figured that out, but it is a
[4:10] Speaker 2: massive power requirement, so you're not going to be very
[4:13] Speaker 2: portable with a laser for drone defense. And then last
[4:17] Speaker 2: but not least, you can either do some sort of
[4:20] Speaker 2: of damage to the drone it self, so you either
[4:23] Speaker 2: you got to have nets, or you gotta have another
[4:25] Speaker 2: drone or in the case of some cities, an eagle
[4:28] Speaker 2: that flies up and like they're trained to grab those
[4:31] Speaker 2: drones and take them out of the sky. So those
[4:33] Speaker 2: are your options. The options aren't easy. And when you
[4:37] Speaker 2: start to talk about it on a scope and scale,
[4:40] Speaker 2: because now we're talking about counter drone technology and counter
[4:44] Speaker 2: drone implementation for the Department of Defense, you know, and
[4:49] Speaker 2: that that typically will start with you know, spec ops
[4:52] Speaker 2: are typically the kinds of people that they're putting out
[4:54] Speaker 2: there on the very pointy edge. They're usually fairly extended
[4:57] Speaker 2: out into into the battle space, and they're kind of
[5:00] Speaker 2: alone and on afraid, So they're usually like a little
[5:02] Speaker 2: island of American policy out there. Now, they're the ones
[5:08] Speaker 2: that need it. The logistics is always hard to reach them.
[5:11] Speaker 2: The power requirements for a laser type thing, they are going
[5:14] Speaker 2: to be very hard. So now you start talking about
[5:17] Speaker 2: how quickly can you develop another drone to go up
[5:22] Speaker 2: and swarm on an incoming drone and do enough damage
[5:25] Speaker 2: to it to drop it out of the sky. Is
[5:27] Speaker 2: there something that you can take to fry fry the
[5:30] Speaker 2: search train it, or is there something that you can
[5:33] Speaker 2: in place that's got the right spectrum covering the right
[5:36] Speaker 2: bits of the spectrum to cut that command and control
[5:40] Speaker 2: so that it will either loiter or return to base.
[5:44] Speaker 2: So it's not an easy problem, and it's only compounded
[5:46] Speaker 2: when you talk about the levels of bureaucracy within DoD
[5:51] Speaker 2: to implement change quickly. So that is why we are
[5:56] Speaker 2: lagging behind. That's why in twenty seventeen twenty eighteen had
[6:00] Speaker 2: man on the wall with a shotgun. And now while
[6:03] Speaker 2: you still have shah he drones going into air bases
[6:08] Speaker 2: even in the golf countries. That the technology has evolved
[6:13] Speaker 2: faster on the offensive side than it has on the
[6:16] Speaker 2: defensive side. That's as simple as it gets.
[6:20] Speaker 3: Yeah, And just just to add to that kind of
[6:22] Speaker 3: more topically, more broadly, especially you know, Eric gave a
[6:25] Speaker 3: good breakdown of the two really the two main types
[6:27] Speaker 3: of defeat being ew or a kinetic defeat. And what
[6:31] Speaker 3: you kind of see is as different countries, the US included,
[6:34] Speaker 3: start to figure out how they're going to defend against drones.
[6:38] Speaker 3: And there's different types of drones, you know, the UIs
[6:40] Speaker 3: is a really broad term, and there's reconnaissance drones and
[6:43] Speaker 3: tactical drones and kinetic drones. So it's how do you
[6:46] Speaker 3: defeat all those things? And just as Eric mentioned, these
[6:49] Speaker 3: the technologies advancing so quickly, you can't choose a side,
[6:54] Speaker 3: you can't go with an all kinetic option. And kind
[6:57] Speaker 3: of what I'm seeing to Eric's point of the kinetic
[7:01] Speaker 3: defeat and the limitations the bureaucracy, the funding is, you know,
[7:05] Speaker 3: those Gulf states have been purchasing US Patriot missiles and
[7:10] Speaker 3: other kinetic defense systems really for more traditional serfs to
[7:15] Speaker 3: air uses not necessarily focused on drones. And you're talking
[7:19] Speaker 3: about the time and the money it takes to build, deploy,
[7:24] Speaker 3: and use a Patriot missile. You know, you're talking. I
[7:27] Speaker 3: think it's one and a half to two million dollars.
[7:29] Speaker 3: Then the limitations on the manufacturing side. I think I
[7:32] Speaker 3: heard the total number of Patriot missiles built each year
[7:35] Speaker 3: is six hundred. You know, when you're facing a country
[7:37] Speaker 3: that has in the thousands of just Shahi drones, you
[7:40] Speaker 3: can see that there's a huge logistical challenge there.
[7:44] Speaker 4: What about GPS jamming, guys, I mean, what's the capability
[7:48] Speaker 4: or possibility of using this also from space based domain?
[7:51] Speaker 2: I mean GPS jamming you know very well could be
[7:58] Speaker 2: another one of those.
[7:59] Speaker 3: Another one of those.
[8:00] Speaker 2: Is to sever that umbilical, that pilot umbilical to the
[8:03] Speaker 2: drone itself. Uh, you know the risks with doing that
[8:06] Speaker 2: are you know, you have now done that from a
[8:09] Speaker 2: space space like look at where that cone of jamming
[8:13] Speaker 2: is coming down to. And now you're starting to talk
[8:15] Speaker 2: about large geographic areas you may or may not want to,
[8:20] Speaker 2: you know, to put that in and as soon as
[8:23] Speaker 2: that drone is out of that cone, if it is
[8:25] Speaker 2: on a on a straight line flight. It very well
[8:28] Speaker 2: could be picked up by control from another from another
[8:30] Speaker 2: controller pretty easy.
[8:33] Speaker 4: And you were talking about the innovation problem, what what's
[8:36] Speaker 4: a good way to kind of get around that? Do
[8:38] Speaker 4: you think that we could, like if we were in
[8:40] Speaker 4: control the d D right now, we could actually say, like, hey, guys,
[8:42] Speaker 4: implement this to speed up acquisition and production and testing
[8:45] Speaker 4: and all that to get out to the field.
[8:46] Speaker 3: What would kind of be a good way to get
[8:47] Speaker 3: about that?
[8:49] Speaker 2: I hate, I hate, I hate for all of these
[8:52] Speaker 2: drone conversations to end in the same cul de sac.
[8:55] Speaker 2: But I'm going to take us right back into the
[8:56] Speaker 2: same cul de sac. I would I would either take
[9:00] Speaker 2: you know, a handful of soft operators and put them
[9:03] Speaker 2: into a Ukrainian bunker for two to three weeks. Or
[9:06] Speaker 2: I'd take the smartest people in Ukraine that can come
[9:09] Speaker 2: off the front lines and bring them right back to
[9:12] Speaker 2: you know, Sokhom headquarter or something like that and have
[9:14] Speaker 2: them sit down for a week. And then I would say,
[9:18] Speaker 2: unlimited funds, I need this amount of capacity.
[9:22] Speaker 3: How fast can we do it?
[9:24] Speaker 2: Because what has occurred over the fight in Ukraine is
[9:30] Speaker 2: that the relationship between the drone and the operators has
[9:36] Speaker 2: changed dramatically and with the implementation of drones on the
[9:41] Speaker 2: battle space now all of the other types of raids
[9:46] Speaker 2: and things that we have grown accustomed to in the
[9:49] Speaker 2: law and terror, and I'm sure you add two John,
[9:51] Speaker 2: it's totally changed. It's completely different now. So the at
[10:01] Speaker 2: times in Ukraine, the operator is doing nothing more to
[10:06] Speaker 2: then enable the continuation of a flight of a drone.
[10:12] Speaker 2: And that's because you know, the Russians are good with EW,
[10:15] Speaker 2: They're very good with electronic warfare, so you have to
[10:19] Speaker 2: they have had to adapt and adjust the tactics to
[10:22] Speaker 2: be able to fly those drones in through the layered
[10:26] Speaker 2: mesh of EW that the Russians are putting out in
[10:29] Speaker 2: order to effectively get the drone to where it needs
[10:32] Speaker 2: to to have the effect that they're looking forward, you know,
[10:35] Speaker 2: to kill the collection, you know whatever, whatever whatever they
[10:39] Speaker 2: want the drone to do, zaki drone or a kill
[10:42] Speaker 2: drone or whatever.
[10:43] Speaker 5: So the.
[10:47] Speaker 2: At times the operator isn't the most critical component in
[10:53] Speaker 2: it the drones, but in other instances, like the longest
[10:57] Speaker 2: sniper shop in the world, now the drone was.
[11:01] Speaker 3: Enabling the operator.
[11:02] Speaker 2: So it's this relationship that you got to come to
[11:05] Speaker 2: understand that you're no longer like the center of what
[11:11] Speaker 2: this operational act is and you might just be an
[11:14] Speaker 2: enablement as a human in that process.
[11:17] Speaker 3: So like.
[11:20] Speaker 2: The drones, you know, that's how I would do it, John,
[11:23] Speaker 2: I would go to where the innovation is occurring the fastest.
[11:26] Speaker 2: I would try to pull those smartest people either out
[11:29] Speaker 2: of it or get next to them. And then you
[11:33] Speaker 2: have to clear the bureaucracy, absolutely, and you have to
[11:36] Speaker 2: open up the checkbook. It's that important. And you got
[11:39] Speaker 2: to Robert Gates as the Secretary of Defense did this
[11:43] Speaker 2: during the gol War or sorry, during the Second Iraq War.
[11:46] Speaker 2: And it was because the IEDs and the casualties we
[11:50] Speaker 2: are seeing in all the humbies.
[11:52] Speaker 3: So he just went.
[11:53] Speaker 2: Scores earth across the board, cut through all the bureaucracy,
[11:58] Speaker 2: open up the checkbook, and that's when you saw the
[12:00] Speaker 2: immentation of the m raps coming in any broadoming a scale.
[12:04] Speaker 4: So I mean that the future of war kind of
[12:06] Speaker 4: that theme that we're onto, Like if we were able
[12:10] Speaker 4: to actually do that innovate now we're there on the battlefield,
[12:12] Speaker 4: what would initiative and like seizing the initiative being on
[12:15] Speaker 4: the offensive, look like with our own use of drones
[12:18] Speaker 4: against an adversary like you're on right now.
[12:20] Speaker 3: For example, I think, and this.
[12:23] Speaker 2: Is where I have a more moderate.
[12:26] Speaker 3: Philosophy or approach to a lot of this. And you know,
[12:30] Speaker 3: even Eric and I might differ on this, is this
[12:33] Speaker 3: concept of everything's changing, everything's different, nothing applies anymore, whether
[12:38] Speaker 3: it's military or even just the more broadly the AI
[12:41] Speaker 3: discussion that's going on, you know across the world of
[12:44] Speaker 3: you know, it's going to replace everybody, versus the counter
[12:47] Speaker 3: argument of is this just going to be another technology
[12:49] Speaker 3: that augments human capacity? So you know, I think I
[12:54] Speaker 3: fall on the side of the fence that this is
[12:55] Speaker 3: going to augment human capacity. Obviously, AIS and technology unlike
[12:59] Speaker 3: any we've ever seen. So it's going to take over,
[13:01] Speaker 3: and it's already taking over and knowledge work and things
[13:04] Speaker 3: like that some of the more mundane task and we'll
[13:07] Speaker 3: see that on the tactical side as well. So going
[13:10] Speaker 3: you know, whether you're talking about offensive employment or your
[13:13] Speaker 3: previous question of how do we adapt quickly? I always go,
[13:16] Speaker 3: you know, first principles and precedent. What's the precedent? Now,
[13:19] Speaker 3: what are we doing now that's going to work, so
[13:21] Speaker 3: we don't have to reinvent the wheel. And to your
[13:23] Speaker 3: point of innovating and innovating quickly, we have units in
[13:27] Speaker 3: the military, specifically in special operations that have special R
[13:32] Speaker 3: and D and special acquisitions policies in place that we
[13:37] Speaker 3: can use to do that. So, you know, again to
[13:39] Speaker 3: Eric's point, yeah, absolutely, bring those subject matter experts or
[13:42] Speaker 3: I would say, those guys are really good at testing
[13:47] Speaker 3: R and D, identifying what's the right tool for the job,
[13:50] Speaker 3: and acquiring it quickly and then field testing it. But
[13:54] Speaker 3: they need to be in this scenario. They need to
[13:57] Speaker 3: need to face these draw these drone swarm scenarios or
[14:00] Speaker 3: counter UIs scenarios, so they can develop the TTPs once
[14:03] Speaker 3: they're exposed to it in training. They're really good at
[14:07] Speaker 3: finding a solution and they've got those acquisition channels in
[14:10] Speaker 3: place to get there quickly, being technology agnostic, just what's
[14:14] Speaker 3: the best tool for the job. So that's kind of
[14:16] Speaker 3: where I land on it of you know, and then
[14:18] Speaker 3: you go to the tactical side again, what works, what
[14:22] Speaker 3: doesn't work? Again, I fall on the side of we
[14:25] Speaker 3: have things, we have tactics, TTPs, doctrines, that work, and
[14:29] Speaker 3: we need to use these tools to augment them, and
[14:32] Speaker 3: they might look a lot like what we have traditionally
[14:35] Speaker 3: done in infantry because you have, as I mentioned earlier,
[14:38] Speaker 3: different types of drones. You have drones that focus on reconnaissance.
[14:41] Speaker 3: You have kinetic drones, so the same as you had
[14:43] Speaker 3: reconnaissance units and more kinetic units light infantry units. Now
[14:46] Speaker 3: you're just augmenting the capacity and the capabilities of those
[14:49] Speaker 3: of those units. So it's on them, to Eric's point,
[14:53] Speaker 3: get it in the hands of those guys and figure
[14:54] Speaker 3: out how a reconnaissance element that's moving forward trying to
[14:57] Speaker 3: locate the enemy and augment their capabilities the use of drums,
[15:01] Speaker 3: so falling in on TTPs that we already know work
[15:04] Speaker 3: and then figuring out which ones don't work, removing them
[15:07] Speaker 3: quickly and adapting.
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[15:50] Speaker 2: And I do agree that underlying principle is how are
[15:53] Speaker 2: you getting these tools to augment the human capability?
[15:58] Speaker 3: Yeah?
[16:01] Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean we've seen like the debate coming up
[16:03] Speaker 1: now about like you know, autonomous targeting and stuff like that.
[16:07] Speaker 1: You saw like the big kerfuffle between the DD and
[16:11] Speaker 1: uh Anthropic. Right, where does does a human hopefully stay
[16:19] Speaker 1: in the kill chain? Right? Like, it's not just going
[16:22] Speaker 1: to be autonomous targeting and stuff like that. And you know,
[16:25] Speaker 1: let's be honest, like even the human being in the
[16:28] Speaker 1: kill chain doesn't exactly mean it's going to be perfect either, right,
[16:30] Speaker 1: So where where do you guys sit on that debate?
[16:38] Speaker 2: So the first time that I ever saw AI AI
[16:44] Speaker 2: completely unleashed and AI targeting in a lethal way was
[16:48] Speaker 2: in eastern Libya, and I can't recall if it was
[16:53] Speaker 2: twenty seventeen or twenty eighteen. But effectively, there were some
[16:57] Speaker 2: Russian contractors that were on the side of Halftar and
[17:01] Speaker 2: they unleashed a wave of drones that had ai AI
[17:05] Speaker 2: targeting built into them, and as soon as those drones
[17:08] Speaker 2: went into UH into the militia lines, they just unmer
[17:17] Speaker 2: unmercifully targeted anything that met the criteria. And the article
[17:23] Speaker 2: was written from a survivor's perspective. There were a couple
[17:26] Speaker 2: of guys that got out of it, and uh, I
[17:29] Speaker 2: mean they just they you know, there is there is
[17:31] Speaker 2: no surrender, there is no wounded, there is no you know,
[17:35] Speaker 2: ethical treatment of prisoners on this. It's you know, I
[17:39] Speaker 2: mean you were literally talking like uh you know, kind
[17:44] Speaker 2: of like Terminator days, terminator type UH killings. And uh,
[17:53] Speaker 2: I was amazed that that did not get more attention.
[17:58] Speaker 2: It It never even was a blip on the radar,
[18:02] Speaker 2: even you know, even in like the you know, the
[18:05] Speaker 2: soft and the military circles. It didn't really register. But
[18:12] Speaker 2: so that was the first time it was there. I
[18:14] Speaker 2: was shocked and I was like, okay, well it if
[18:20] Speaker 2: your adversary is going to do it, do you do
[18:23] Speaker 2: you do you truly slow down the kill chain by
[18:25] Speaker 2: putting a human in the loop, even if it's for
[18:28] Speaker 2: the last or or even if if it's for a
[18:31] Speaker 2: two second interval before you put it on terminal guidance.
[18:35] Speaker 2: There are ways to maximize the use of what AI
[18:40] Speaker 2: can do for you, but still have the proper interruption
[18:44] Speaker 2: at the proper times. And personally, I don't believe that
[18:49] Speaker 2: you're going to lose the competitive advantage with a two
[18:53] Speaker 2: second delay or a ten second delayed. Even I carried
[18:58] Speaker 2: out hundreds of strikes, I do not see that as
[19:02] Speaker 2: an impediment to the impact that you need to have
[19:05] Speaker 2: on the battlefield with those.
[19:06] Speaker 3: You have to use.
[19:08] Speaker 2: So I personally have an ethical problem by taking a
[19:15] Speaker 2: human completely out of a kill chain when when we
[19:18] Speaker 2: start to talk about robotic or drone warfare.
[19:21] Speaker 3: The one other.
[19:22] Speaker 2: Instance of that was basically it was during the Cold
[19:27] Speaker 2: War and it was, uh, you know, the Russians had
[19:34] Speaker 2: developed a AH, they developed a missile and if that
[19:40] Speaker 2: missile received this you know, received the launch order, it
[19:45] Speaker 2: basically went up and transit across Russia and it was
[19:48] Speaker 2: emanating the signals for any remaining missiles that were still
[19:53] Speaker 2: intact to launch. So it was it's basically like a
[19:57] Speaker 2: dead man's missile. So their their thought was it if
[20:01] Speaker 2: Moscow got hit from a nuclear strike from the United States,
[20:05] Speaker 2: they still had potentially the ability to counterattack with the
[20:10] Speaker 2: dead man missile that was going to automatically launch anything
[20:12] Speaker 2: else they had. So I think that's kind of like
[20:16] Speaker 2: the first instance of what we're talking about by taking
[20:20] Speaker 2: humans completely out of the kill chain, I think it
[20:22] Speaker 2: starting the Cold War the idea did. I think we've
[20:25] Speaker 2: seen it being acted here in twenty seventeen in eastern
[20:31] Speaker 2: Libya and then yet again, you know, you now have
[20:34] Speaker 2: large amounts of AID driven targeting for sure, and how
[20:40] Speaker 2: far that AI goes into the actual kill chain now
[20:43] Speaker 2: is probably you know, it's on a classified level. I
[20:47] Speaker 2: don't have access to it, but I firmly stand that
[20:51] Speaker 2: you have to have a human in the chain on this.
[20:54] Speaker 2: I don't know if you see it differently.
[20:55] Speaker 3: Yeah, No, I think it's you know, it's a nuanced
[20:59] Speaker 3: answer to very nuanced subject. How are you because there's
[21:03] Speaker 3: not a one size fits all in combat, So how
[21:06] Speaker 3: are you employing this discussion of in the loop on
[21:09] Speaker 3: the loop out of the loop? How are you if
[21:11] Speaker 3: you were to get to a point where we're going
[21:13] Speaker 3: to accept out of the loop technologies. How are you
[21:15] Speaker 3: going to use it? Are you going to use it
[21:17] Speaker 3: offensively in an urban environment? Probably not. Are you going
[21:21] Speaker 3: to use it in a defensive posture on a defined
[21:24] Speaker 3: forward line of operations against a uniformed combatant. That's probably
[21:28] Speaker 3: an acceptable and acceptable use of that. And then you know,
[21:32] Speaker 3: to get into the counter U s. How do you
[21:33] Speaker 3: counter U s? You get the discussion of decoys and spoofing,
[21:38] Speaker 3: which is going on right now. You know, Iran will
[21:40] Speaker 3: not launch a number of US that are not armed
[21:44] Speaker 3: just to deplete kinetic defenses of Israel and other Gulf states.
[21:49] Speaker 3: So can a human make that decision to shoot down
[21:52] Speaker 3: or to identify which are the decoys and which are
[21:54] Speaker 3: actually arm drones? Probably not. That's a good you know,
[21:58] Speaker 3: and there's no collateral damage in shootings something out of
[22:00] Speaker 3: the sky, assuming it's just you know, it's just a
[22:03] Speaker 3: connectic kinetic drone. So great use of out of the
[22:07] Speaker 3: loop and AI targeting where the human doesn't have to
[22:09] Speaker 3: decipher that when you only have so many seconds. The humans,
[22:13] Speaker 3: you know, that defense system programmed can go ahead and
[22:16] Speaker 3: identify and work through the math. Figure out which of
[22:18] Speaker 3: the decoys, which of the spoofs, shoot those, you know,
[22:20] Speaker 3: leave those and shoot down the arm drone. So I
[22:23] Speaker 3: think with all these things, you have to really specify
[22:26] Speaker 3: what you're talking about before we make a decision as
[22:29] Speaker 3: a country of we can never accept out of the loop,
[22:33] Speaker 3: you know, programming or targeting, because there's there's absolutely applications
[22:36] Speaker 3: for it. But you know, if we want to be
[22:39] Speaker 3: the continue to be the leader of the world, then
[22:41] Speaker 3: you know, we need to make sure that we have
[22:43] Speaker 3: humans and commanders in charge ultimately in the you know,
[22:46] Speaker 3: that kilt chain decision.
[22:47] Speaker 1: What do you say to like, you know, our enemies, right,
[22:50] Speaker 1: I don't, I mean, I don't know if you guys
[22:51] Speaker 1: have heard, Like is this happening in Ukraine right now? Like,
[22:55] Speaker 1: is like fully autonomous targeting and execution happening?
[22:59] Speaker 4: Like?
[22:59] Speaker 1: Because you know, will China have those ethical qualms that
[23:02] Speaker 1: we will, which I think we should, right, I think
[23:04] Speaker 1: it's you know, important that we at least discuss it.
[23:09] Speaker 1: What do you say to the people that say that
[23:12] Speaker 1: our enemies won't have those ethical qualms and that could
[23:15] Speaker 1: be an advantage to them.
[23:16] Speaker 3: Yeah, to your first question, it's absolutely happening. It's happening
[23:20] Speaker 3: in the Ukraine right now. There's several examples of that
[23:23] Speaker 3: drone swarms that you know, once launched and authorized, THEIRS
[23:28] Speaker 3: compumes are completely taken themselves out of the loop. But
[23:31] Speaker 3: again that's a you know, that's a defensive operation against
[23:34] Speaker 3: a uniformed enemy combatant. You know, what do you say?
[23:38] Speaker 3: What do we know? What do we say to our enemy?
[23:40] Speaker 3: We always know that we as the United States, are
[23:43] Speaker 3: going to be restricted or we're going to have our
[23:45] Speaker 3: hands tied in some way because we want to be
[23:49] Speaker 3: the leader of the free world. We want to set
[23:51] Speaker 3: the example. We also understand that as the leader of
[23:58] Speaker 3: the free world and as the the world's you know,
[24:01] Speaker 3: military superpower, only superpower, I would argue at this point,
[24:04] Speaker 3: as the last couple of years have demonstrated in the
[24:07] Speaker 3: Ukraine and now in Iran, other countries don't want to
[24:12] Speaker 3: fight us, nor can they militarily, but they win on
[24:15] Speaker 3: the public affairs, in the public opinion side. So regardless
[24:22] Speaker 3: of what our enemy is going to do and what
[24:24] Speaker 3: we're seeing in Iran is you know, in the case
[24:27] Speaker 3: of decoys and spoofing, perhaps confusing an AI or a target,
[24:32] Speaker 3: or to strike a school you know whether that was
[24:34] Speaker 3: the case or not, that's certainly a tactic that could
[24:36] Speaker 3: be employed by an adversary who knows we can't win militarily,
[24:40] Speaker 3: so we need to make this as messy as possible
[24:42] Speaker 3: and sway public opinion in favor of our enemy. So
[24:46] Speaker 3: I don't think it's any change to what we've been
[24:48] Speaker 3: subjected to for the last fifteen or twenty years in
[24:51] Speaker 3: Iraq and Afghanistan. We know that our enemy is going
[24:54] Speaker 3: to fight without limitations, and we need to can continue
[24:57] Speaker 3: to adapt and evolve and employ these new technologies in
[25:02] Speaker 3: a just way.
[25:05] Speaker 4: I'm curious more on the technology too. You're talking about
[25:07] Speaker 4: if you get a little more specific on like what
[25:09] Speaker 4: what's the brain of one of these devices look like,
[25:11] Speaker 4: especially when we're talking about like reconnaissance versus attack, and
[25:14] Speaker 4: like how does that change and differentiate based on the
[25:16] Speaker 4: platform or the objective.
[25:17] Speaker 3: I mean, so.
[25:21] Speaker 2: The very first start point for any drone, for anybody
[25:24] Speaker 2: that really develops someone knows what they're doing, They start
[25:27] Speaker 2: with what the what the payload is. Is it a
[25:29] Speaker 2: lethal payload, is it a collection payload? What's the payload?
[25:34] Speaker 2: Then you build the drone around that. So that is
[25:37] Speaker 2: that's in the way the drones started. They actually it
[25:40] Speaker 2: all started out one eighty from that. It started with
[25:43] Speaker 2: a drone, what can we attach to it? And and
[25:46] Speaker 2: then it kind of bumbled along for a while. But
[25:49] Speaker 2: the true people that are developing these things correctly, they
[25:51] Speaker 2: start with the payload. So whatever the payload is, whether
[25:54] Speaker 2: it's a uh, you know, a spectrometer, a camera, a
[26:00] Speaker 2: cell net uh, a cell network device collection device uh
[26:04] Speaker 2: or a murdered RPG round you know for for more
[26:08] Speaker 2: of a lethodrome, then on the drone around it Really
[26:12] Speaker 2: it just comes down to seven critical parts, and all
[26:15] Speaker 2: those parts are all the same. It's just in different
[26:17] Speaker 2: dimensions or different different aspects to get what you want.
[26:23] Speaker 2: You know, it's the it's the frame, motors, the electronic
[26:28] Speaker 2: you know, speed control, flight controls, sensors, power, and then.
[26:32] Speaker 3: Really the communication.
[26:33] Speaker 2: So there's seven critical components and then there's an eighth
[26:36] Speaker 2: one if you just add the payload to it. So
[26:42] Speaker 2: you know, when you're talking about the brain, it just
[26:43] Speaker 2: comes down to the to that motherboard and how the calms,
[26:47] Speaker 2: the speedometer and everything.
[26:48] Speaker 3: Is coming into that motherboard.
[26:49] Speaker 2: It's you know, it's it's not rocket science and uh,
[26:54] Speaker 2: you know, there isn't a big differentiation between a terminal
[26:57] Speaker 2: drone or a Recie drone.
[26:59] Speaker 3: It's really the payload.
[27:02] Speaker 4: And actually you mentioned the direct to sell, which kind
[27:04] Speaker 4: of piqued my interest because with the Iran war right now,
[27:07] Speaker 4: they've got their internet down. It's like ninety nine percent
[27:09] Speaker 4: without internet in the country, a huge communication problem for
[27:12] Speaker 4: domestic communications. You try to get out in the streets, communicate, coordinate,
[27:15] Speaker 4: get out and protest and whatnot. And I'm thinking about,
[27:17] Speaker 4: you know, in my mind, I was thinking about a
[27:19] Speaker 4: lower orbit satellite mesh network solution to try to give
[27:22] Speaker 4: them a direct to sell capability. And I'm curious what
[27:24] Speaker 4: your thoughts on the feasibility of, you know, without the
[27:27] Speaker 4: issue of money or resources, if we could turn those
[27:30] Speaker 4: things up, what would be the feasibility of actually using
[27:33] Speaker 4: drones to help with that kind of mesh network to
[27:35] Speaker 4: actually get the people to communicate with each other so
[27:37] Speaker 4: they can get out and take over in the streets.
[27:40] Speaker 3: Absolutely.
[27:41] Speaker 2: I mean, you know, like when you if I, if
[27:45] Speaker 2: I rewind a little bit in the discussion, you just
[27:47] Speaker 2: go back to the ew that Russia is putting on
[27:50] Speaker 2: the front lines of Ukraine. There are portions of that
[27:52] Speaker 2: flight where it's guided by Starlink, which is a low
[27:56] Speaker 2: orbit satellite system right low over Internet satellite system, And
[27:59] Speaker 2: there's portions of that flight where it goes all the
[28:02] Speaker 2: way to either align a site or even almost like uh, the.
[28:09] Speaker 3: The old school antenna, like an HF Repeter.
[28:14] Speaker 2: Yeah, HF repeters right, And so it's different phases of
[28:17] Speaker 2: the flight. They have to have different communications that they're
[28:20] Speaker 2: controlling the drones with, and that's where I'm talking about
[28:24] Speaker 2: the relationship between the operator and the drone. There are
[28:27] Speaker 2: portions of that flight where the drone is good and
[28:29] Speaker 2: then you've got a forward stage operator and the operator
[28:31] Speaker 2: is actually acting as a repeater with a capability to
[28:34] Speaker 2: continue the drone to get the target. And so yeah,
[28:39] Speaker 2: I mean whether you do that with little orbit satellites
[28:42] Speaker 2: from you know, from SpaceX, or whether you do that
[28:46] Speaker 2: by drones that are within you know or go Tenna
[28:50] Speaker 2: type type capabilities that are lily padding the C two.
[28:53] Speaker 3: Of that drone.
[28:54] Speaker 2: Yeah, that's all very doable. It just comes down to
[28:57] Speaker 2: funds and how you're going to deploy it, power it,
[29:00] Speaker 2: and then employ it and use it.
[29:04] Speaker 4: Yeah, we were talking a couple of weeks ago about
[29:05] Speaker 4: the Kurds in Western Iran coming perhaps doing some kind
[29:09] Speaker 4: of a conventional war for activity, you know, getting training
[29:11] Speaker 4: perhaps to go over across the border. And to me,
[29:13] Speaker 4: that sounds like a pretty good layer to add in there,
[29:15] Speaker 4: as if they do in fact move in to have
[29:18] Speaker 4: that overhead to be able to communicate and also use
[29:20] Speaker 4: it as a weapon platform but also reconnaissance they and
[29:23] Speaker 4: communication to at the same time. It's like a very
[29:24] Speaker 4: robust capability to have this layered activity with drones overhead.
[29:30] Speaker 3: Yeah, and you know, and then.
[29:35] Speaker 2: But to Scott's point on it needs to be a
[29:37] Speaker 2: tool that enables human capabilities. The blend of the drones
[29:44] Speaker 2: has got to be different in each instance as well.
[29:47] Speaker 2: I mean, there are plenty of drone companies out there
[29:50] Speaker 2: that are making an unbilical drone, so it's you know,
[29:53] Speaker 2: it's attached to ubilical, it's coming from the grounds going up.
[29:57] Speaker 2: The payloads on those things can.
[29:58] Speaker 3: Be you know whatever.
[30:00] Speaker 2: You can have it be as a comms hub, you
[30:02] Speaker 2: can have it be as a camera hub, you can
[30:05] Speaker 2: have it acts as a cell phone tower and you're
[30:08] Speaker 2: feeding at power up the cable anyway. So now you've
[30:11] Speaker 2: extended the flight time and all that, and it can
[30:13] Speaker 2: maintain stations. So if you put that on the back
[30:15] Speaker 2: of a four wheeler, you put it on the back
[30:17] Speaker 2: of a side by side, you put on the back
[30:19] Speaker 2: of things, it can roll the battlespace with you, providing
[30:22] Speaker 2: that on umbilical that can't ew isn't going to jam
[30:26] Speaker 2: your ability to control your drone and do whatever you
[30:29] Speaker 2: want to do there.
[30:30] Speaker 3: But then or that can think could.
[30:32] Speaker 2: Also be kind of like considered like your your C
[30:35] Speaker 2: two node, while you then have these other disparate drones
[30:38] Speaker 2: that are going on and doing it. But all of this,
[30:41] Speaker 2: you know, this is exactly a Scott's point. You've got
[30:45] Speaker 2: to get these kinds of things in the hands of
[30:48] Speaker 2: the people that are the most innovative, that have the
[30:50] Speaker 2: right authorities already in place, that have the right budgeting to.
[30:53] Speaker 3: Match it, to just get after it.
[30:56] Speaker 2: And you know, one of the things that really open
[31:00] Speaker 2: my eyes about the reality of what's going on in
[31:02] Speaker 2: Ukraine was listening to how they would mass assault force
[31:07] Speaker 2: to have an effect on a target for a very
[31:10] Speaker 2: short period of time. Reki dron goes out, it's gathering
[31:14] Speaker 2: the information, it's pumping that information into basically, you know,
[31:19] Speaker 2: an attack, so everybody is getting at the same time.
[31:23] Speaker 2: But now what used to be, you know, a forty
[31:27] Speaker 2: infantry platoon or a forty man a sault element. They're
[31:31] Speaker 2: not patrolling in forty people. They're coming from all points
[31:35] Speaker 2: of the compass. The riding battery powered motorbikes singles, and
[31:39] Speaker 2: if one or two of them get hit by Russian drones,
[31:42] Speaker 2: the majority of the time it's it's actually hitting the motorbike.
[31:46] Speaker 2: Next guy just comes by and picks up the guy
[31:48] Speaker 2: that need to lift. And they are massing from all
[31:51] Speaker 2: points of the compass to have the effect that they
[31:53] Speaker 2: need to and then they're disbursing again. And and you know,
[31:58] Speaker 2: just if you think about that for a minute, there
[32:01] Speaker 2: go the days like you're only masking the combat power
[32:04] Speaker 2: that you need for a very short period of time,
[32:06] Speaker 2: and you're getting them there in a very innovative way.
[32:09] Speaker 2: You're not putting them in a bradley, you're not putting
[32:12] Speaker 2: them in in a h forty seven five kilometers of
[32:15] Speaker 2: a target.
[32:15] Speaker 3: You're not doing the things that we learned and we.
[32:18] Speaker 2: Were able to do successfully because of battle space has changed.
[32:25] Speaker 2: And actually I was thinking about something a little topical.
[32:27] Speaker 2: You know, the pilots just went down today and Iran
[32:30] Speaker 2: and thinking about you know, the way we used to
[32:32] Speaker 2: do personal recovery did not include drones, and now I'm
[32:35] Speaker 2: sure it does. I'm curious, you know, like in a
[32:37] Speaker 2: future situation with a little bit more time to actually
[32:40] Speaker 2: integrate what is kind of the best way to use
[32:42] Speaker 2: these platforms, especially looking at where the pilot went down,
[32:44] Speaker 2: it's like three hundred kilometers from friendly lines, so you've
[32:47] Speaker 2: got line of sight problems. There's obviously terrain issues and
[32:50] Speaker 2: enemy issues. You know, what's kind of the way forward?
[32:52] Speaker 2: If you if you could crystal ball it.
[32:56] Speaker 3: Crystal balling anything in this space right now is a challenge.
[33:01] Speaker 3: That's so it's like you don't want to use the
[33:04] Speaker 3: term crystal ball. It's more like magic wand you know,
[33:06] Speaker 3: if you could magic wand anything right now. Obviously anything
[33:12] Speaker 3: that you can use autonomously gives you a competitive advantage
[33:15] Speaker 3: against the enemy and preservation of force, that's a big
[33:18] Speaker 3: magic Wand to create a UAS system that you know
[33:22] Speaker 3: has a payload of two hundred to two hundred and
[33:24] Speaker 3: fifty pounds, Like I said, that's a big ask. So
[33:28] Speaker 3: I think kind of just being more judicious with where
[33:32] Speaker 3: the technologies headed, current capabilities and limitations. I think the
[33:35] Speaker 3: absolutely you've got the wrecky drones, I don't think today
[33:41] Speaker 3: fortunately for those pilots and everybody that was involved in
[33:45] Speaker 3: the search and rescue, that the surface to air missile
[33:47] Speaker 3: was a threat. But if you still did have a
[33:49] Speaker 3: surface to air threat drones to confuse, destroy, overwhelm those systems,
[33:55] Speaker 3: to allow something with a large more traditional means rubbery
[33:58] Speaker 3: wing with a larger payload two go in locate and
[34:01] Speaker 3: extract those pilots. I think that's that's more of a
[34:05] Speaker 3: crystal ball versus the magic Wand you know if I
[34:09] Speaker 3: could wave it and have a capability tomorrow.
[34:12] Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, I wonder dr if it could be used
[34:15] Speaker 4: for authentication or something with like signature measurement or something
[34:18] Speaker 4: like that as well to kind of figure out like
[34:20] Speaker 4: is this the guy? Is he where he's supposed to
[34:21] Speaker 4: be wordams the last time he was there? That kind
[34:23] Speaker 4: of stuff as well.
[34:26] Speaker 3: Yeah. Absolutely.
[34:27] Speaker 2: Do you think it's uh, do you think it's quicker
[34:32] Speaker 2: too to implement the drones larger style drones, or do
[34:37] Speaker 2: you think it's quicker to implement a flight control system
[34:42] Speaker 2: that is driven off AI to basically remote pilot in
[34:47] Speaker 2: a little word, you know, or something that's already in
[34:51] Speaker 2: the in the assets. Yeah, you're talking, it's like use
[34:57] Speaker 2: it like a flight lead. Yeah, I'm just you know,
[35:00] Speaker 2: instead of putting two pilots at risk to go get
[35:02] Speaker 2: a pilot, you're you're putting something with an autopilot in it.
[35:05] Speaker 3: Yeah, it's using the same asset. Yeah, to close the distance.
[35:09] Speaker 2: I mean if it gets smoked, well you didn't, you
[35:12] Speaker 2: don't have two more people on the ground or too instead.
[35:15] Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, I was just thinking. My first thought when
[35:17] Speaker 3: you said that was more of the discussion of drone
[35:21] Speaker 3: enabling the operator operator enabling the drone. You know, now
[35:24] Speaker 3: we have flight leads that spend a lot of time
[35:27] Speaker 3: to do all that planning and lead a rotor wing
[35:29] Speaker 3: force in. I was thinking a drone leads the force
[35:32] Speaker 3: in now, you know, not just necessarily for navigation because
[35:36] Speaker 3: pilots obviously do that really well, but defeating threats and
[35:40] Speaker 3: you know, identifying the individual you're trying to pick up
[35:43] Speaker 3: all the getion and everything like that. Yeah, Junior, Yeah,
[35:48] Speaker 3: I was going say, trying to crystal ball this space
[35:50] Speaker 3: right now is just it's advancing so quickly. Countermeasures are
[35:55] Speaker 3: advancing so quickly, new technologies every day countering techechnologies. So
[36:00] Speaker 3: it's uh, yeah, it's a that's it's a challenge, junior man,
[36:06] Speaker 3: walk out of fire. Yeah, you know, it's what you're doing. Yeah,
[36:09] Speaker 3: here's here's your l shape, flashlight and your pistol, going
[36:14] Speaker 3: and going and find it. That's you know, that's how
[36:16] Speaker 3: again it comes down to, you know, to basics, what works,
[36:19] Speaker 3: What do we know works? And that's how we're seeing
[36:23] Speaker 3: the employment of these things, even how we used canines
[36:27] Speaker 3: during the Global War on Terrors, you know, to get
[36:30] Speaker 3: something mobile in front of the assault force. Okay, well,
[36:32] Speaker 3: what if we can get something and that's not a human.
[36:35] Speaker 3: What if we can get something that's not even a
[36:36] Speaker 3: living organism that's easily replaced or more easily replaced than
[36:40] Speaker 3: a canine. So that's kind of where my brain goes
[36:42] Speaker 3: every time I I you know, somebody asked me a
[36:45] Speaker 3: question on tactics or employment or how do we incorporate
[36:48] Speaker 3: this into the assault force? It's like, okay, well, what
[36:50] Speaker 3: are we doing now? How can we augment it and
[36:52] Speaker 3: what task can we replace? Just like we're doing in
[36:55] Speaker 3: the corporate world. What task can we replace to free
[36:58] Speaker 3: the guy on the ground a depth.
[37:00] Speaker 4: To do more important work or to keep them safer.
[37:04] Speaker 2: Preservation of force, you know, it goes beyond. Like we're
[37:09] Speaker 2: definitely focused kind of on that on that last like
[37:11] Speaker 2: kind of kinetic, but you know, the last ten yards
[37:15] Speaker 2: the kinetic piece. But if you rewind that a little bit,
[37:18] Speaker 2: you know these UGVs, the unmanned you know, ground vehicles.
[37:22] Speaker 3: Look, there's multiple articles.
[37:23] Speaker 2: There's multiple instances here where they've got an M two,
[37:26] Speaker 2: so a fifty col Browning machine gun, you know, belt fed,
[37:30] Speaker 2: mounted up plenty of AMMO. And it is in this sector,
[37:34] Speaker 2: it is is holding up enough pace of a fire
[37:38] Speaker 2: every now and then and sporadically from different locations, is
[37:41] Speaker 2: denying the Russians the ability to advance.
[37:45] Speaker 3: It comes off line for a.
[37:46] Speaker 2: Two hour stint, gets maintenanced, reloaded, straight back up there
[37:51] Speaker 2: crawling around doing it. I mean, there's multiple disease the
[37:55] Speaker 2: ability to resupply your force. If you do have folks
[37:58] Speaker 2: that are out there really for and maybe they're the
[38:01] Speaker 2: ones that are enabling those drones in that last you
[38:04] Speaker 2: know that calms lily pad that we've been talking about,
[38:06] Speaker 2: the ability to re supply those people without getting you know,
[38:09] Speaker 2: a highlux shot or destroyed. It's a small UGV with
[38:16] Speaker 2: a box of bullets, band aids beans and they put
[38:21] Speaker 2: lots of them out there and they're just slowly moving
[38:23] Speaker 2: through the landscape and they just know that they have
[38:25] Speaker 2: a GPS coordinate to show off that.
[38:29] Speaker 3: I mean, you know, it's just you know, it kind
[38:33] Speaker 3: of goes on and on.
[38:35] Speaker 4: We talked a lot about like the air component, and
[38:37] Speaker 4: now we're talking about UGVs. What about the subsurface underwater capabilities?
[38:42] Speaker 4: Are those developing kind of on par Is? That sort
[38:44] Speaker 4: of an afterthought As far as the drone, the air
[38:46] Speaker 4: drone thing that really grabs headlines.
[38:49] Speaker 2: Well, I think that the air piece is definitely more publicized,
[38:54] Speaker 2: but the whether it's surface or subsurface is absolutely is
[39:00] Speaker 2: is it keeping pace or is it slightly behind? Personally,
[39:02] Speaker 2: I think it's slightly behind. But it's absolutely not forgotten.
[39:05] Speaker 2: I mean, the Russian fleet had to come out of
[39:07] Speaker 2: black seat. I mean you think that that wasn't because
[39:12] Speaker 2: of persistent maritime drone swarms, you know, and it's everything
[39:15] Speaker 2: from jet skis to now really revolutionize you know, fully
[39:20] Speaker 2: submersible or semi submersible drones that are then they are
[39:24] Speaker 2: they are going off AI targeting and video feeds to
[39:27] Speaker 2: come in and swarm and hit those hit those those
[39:30] Speaker 2: ships repeatedly. So no, I think that the maritime aspect
[39:35] Speaker 2: is just as important. I just think it it just
[39:38] Speaker 2: isn't quite as much of a headline grabber, but it's
[39:41] Speaker 2: it's absolutely Yeah.
[39:44] Speaker 4: Especially with the countermind stuff that we're talking about, Like
[39:46] Speaker 4: the US got rid of its for mind sweepers. We
[39:48] Speaker 4: got the lateral combat vessels that are not supposed to
[39:51] Speaker 4: be used for that that are metallic. Japan has these
[39:54] Speaker 4: wooden boats that they actually use for mind sweeping and
[39:57] Speaker 4: these all have people in them, and what you were
[39:58] Speaker 4: just talking about, you know, removing the person back a
[40:01] Speaker 4: little bit past that line of cover and concealment so
[40:03] Speaker 4: that the thing in front of them can actually action it.
[40:05] Speaker 4: I mean, this sounds like a good place also for
[40:07] Speaker 4: this unmanned capability.
[40:10] Speaker 3: Yeah, that seems like a really simple solution. You know,
[40:14] Speaker 3: doing it the way we're doing it now reminds me
[40:15] Speaker 3: of the sappers and you know I wrack driving roads
[40:18] Speaker 3: to locate IDs by making them explode, driving as fast
[40:23] Speaker 3: as possible. Yeah, yeah, yeah, versus yeah, and adding some
[40:26] Speaker 3: armor to it and hoping for the best. So yeah,
[40:29] Speaker 3: that's just it's a great, great opportunity for employment for
[40:32] Speaker 3: preservation of the force, especially in a denied space.
[40:39] Speaker 2: So generally though, like the trend is take the human out.
[40:47] Speaker 2: I mean, you know, the M one A one Abrams
[40:50] Speaker 2: tank is so much more effective without people in it.
[40:53] Speaker 2: People is actually the limiting factor of that tank, and
[40:56] Speaker 2: the tank is designed to to preserve the people inside
[40:59] Speaker 2: of it. If you could, you could take half of
[41:02] Speaker 2: that armor off and make it twice as fast and
[41:06] Speaker 2: a lot more lethal if you if you didn't have
[41:08] Speaker 2: to have armor protect people. Same thing with with airplanes.
[41:12] Speaker 2: I mean, you know, the F eighteam can out pull
[41:16] Speaker 2: the pilot. That's what there's there's more or less a
[41:19] Speaker 2: governor cap in the F eighteen because you can pull
[41:21] Speaker 2: that that plane will do or that jet will do
[41:24] Speaker 2: more g's than the pilot can withstand right, So if
[41:28] Speaker 2: you take that out, now you're increasing the capabilities of
[41:30] Speaker 2: your assets. But then that puts us you're right back
[41:34] Speaker 2: into the well. Okay, at what points are you going
[41:38] Speaker 2: to inject the human control so that you can you
[41:41] Speaker 2: can you can ethically say that you are still within
[41:43] Speaker 2: the laws of armed conflict, and you do have the
[41:46] Speaker 2: ability to take prisoners. You do have the ability to attend.
[41:50] Speaker 3: To win they're on the battlefield. You do have the
[41:52] Speaker 3: ability to do those things that fall within the laws
[41:54] Speaker 3: of m com.
[41:55] Speaker 1: So, moving more towards h the naval capacity, I wrote
[42:00] Speaker 1: in like the outline about aircraft carriers, and I wish
[42:04] Speaker 1: we had Andy Milburn on here today. He's in he's
[42:07] Speaker 1: in riod and he's jet lagged, so he couldn't make
[42:10] Speaker 1: it because he's a fervid uh. He's fervently opposed to
[42:15] Speaker 1: aircraft carriers. And we do see what's happening in the
[42:18] Speaker 1: in the Gulf right now, Like our aircraft carrier had
[42:20] Speaker 1: to back up about three hundred miles from where it
[42:23] Speaker 1: was because we're worried about ballistic missiles and probably shaheeds.
[42:27] Speaker 1: Our aircraft carriers worth the thirteen plus billion dollar price
[42:31] Speaker 1: tag that they're on, when will they even be effective
[42:34] Speaker 1: in a fight versus China?
[42:37] Speaker 3: Okay?
[42:38] Speaker 2: So I would love and I'll give Andy a cole.
[42:42] Speaker 3: I've got his number, okay.
[42:44] Speaker 2: And I thought about your when you inject that in
[42:46] Speaker 2: the outline. I thought about it a lot D So
[42:49] Speaker 2: I appreciate you bringing it up. I absolutely loved and
[42:56] Speaker 2: continue to love a sovereign piece of the United States
[43:01] Speaker 2: that I can put within twelve miles of any coastline
[43:05] Speaker 2: I want on Earth and in stage and do whatever
[43:09] Speaker 2: I want off of it. You cannot replicate that now
[43:15] Speaker 2: in certain instances due to a blistic missile or a
[43:18] Speaker 2: drone threat. You either are going to develop a better countermeasure,
[43:23] Speaker 2: which puts the onus on our intelligence community to go
[43:27] Speaker 2: out and you know, surreptitiously get the components that are
[43:31] Speaker 2: going into that final seeker head so you can develop
[43:34] Speaker 2: the right countermeasure for it. So that is ineffective or
[43:40] Speaker 2: you got to back it off, just like what happened here,
[43:43] Speaker 2: you know, with with with our with our craft career
[43:46] Speaker 2: coming out three hundred miles, fine, three hundred miles. You
[43:50] Speaker 2: can still you can still push in at times for
[43:53] Speaker 2: critical things and take that sovereign piece of US territory
[43:57] Speaker 2: to then have and and do you know, combat capability
[44:01] Speaker 2: support or launch operations to do it. So does it
[44:05] Speaker 2: have to be an aircraft carrier. No, I am not
[44:07] Speaker 2: fully wedded to an aircraft carrier. It could be something
[44:10] Speaker 2: cheaper it could, but at the end of the day,
[44:12] Speaker 2: it's got to be something that has the capabilities to
[44:15] Speaker 2: launch you know, aircraft or munitions, launch boats, launch amphibious vehicles,
[44:22] Speaker 2: and have the ability to project power. That is, is
[44:24] Speaker 2: a floating island of US power that you can project from.
[44:28] Speaker 2: I don't want to give it up.
[44:32] Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I mean I would love to have
[44:34] Speaker 1: Andy hare, but I mean, from what I've gathered, from
[44:38] Speaker 1: what he said in the past, and I kind of
[44:41] Speaker 1: believe it too, it kind of seems like a big
[44:43] Speaker 1: target and like even you know, a RAN's not even
[44:48] Speaker 1: technologically advanced, right, and we're having an issue. I mean,
[44:51] Speaker 1: we haven't been hit, thank god, but somebody against China
[44:55] Speaker 1: who's like their whole doctrine is basically, you know, a
[44:58] Speaker 1: big part of it is trying to sink aircraft carrier,
[45:01] Speaker 1: American aircraft carriers. How do they survive? Like how many
[45:07] Speaker 1: s M three missiles can you like stick on there
[45:09] Speaker 1: to like or a stick on destroyers around it to
[45:12] Speaker 1: uh to fight off a drone swarm or ballistic missiles
[45:17] Speaker 1: anti ship missiles.
[45:19] Speaker 3: I think it just ties back to the you know,
[45:21] Speaker 3: the same discussion of innovating and iterating and finding the
[45:24] Speaker 3: right solution. You know, again, I'm not on the in
[45:27] Speaker 3: the doom and gloom party that AI is going to
[45:29] Speaker 3: replace everybody and these technologies are going to replace everybody.
[45:32] Speaker 3: We're going to get to the countermeasure solution to protect
[45:35] Speaker 3: those aircraft carriers. And as you know, as we discussed previously,
[45:39] Speaker 3: we might be able to extend the range of the
[45:41] Speaker 3: platforms that operate out of off of those carriers because
[45:44] Speaker 3: they're no longer manned. Some of them or all of
[45:46] Speaker 3: them are no longer maned, so they don't have to
[45:48] Speaker 3: be within uh you know, firing distance of some of
[45:51] Speaker 3: those projectiles. But you know full faith that countermeasures will
[45:55] Speaker 3: get there at the same time that unmanned platforms will
[45:58] Speaker 3: start to take over and increase the lethality range with
[46:02] Speaker 3: while you know, maintaining preservation of the forest. Yeah, it's
[46:08] Speaker 3: it's kind of evolve. It has to, you know.
[46:11] Speaker 2: I mean, they they used to call the the frigate.
[46:18] Speaker 2: I don't I don't want to use fell language here.
[46:20] Speaker 3: On your podcast.
[46:21] Speaker 1: Can go ahead, go ahead, But but they.
[46:25] Speaker 3: Called it the douche.
[46:28] Speaker 2: It emanated all the signals of the aircraft carrier, and
[46:31] Speaker 2: the aircraft carrier was silent still you know, do flight
[46:35] Speaker 2: ops a lot of stuff, but it can do it coms,
[46:38] Speaker 2: colms comes dark and that was that became the electronic
[46:43] Speaker 2: Aircraft Carrier. So anything that was inbound that didn't have
[46:47] Speaker 2: f MB to it would be going into into that.
[46:50] Speaker 3: Right.
[46:51] Speaker 2: There are ways to put like sacrificial lambs out there
[46:54] Speaker 2: to do things to confuse a battle space enough so
[46:56] Speaker 2: they can still work and still have the ability to
[46:58] Speaker 2: project power. And like I'm saying, I'm not wedded to
[47:02] Speaker 2: that thirteen billion dollar price tag for you know, a
[47:05] Speaker 2: five thousand person manned aircraft carrier, but I am wedded
[47:09] Speaker 2: to the ability to have something that is a US
[47:11] Speaker 2: sovereign piece of territory that you can jan any where
[47:14] Speaker 2: you want to it and start project power.
[47:17] Speaker 3: You can't replace that.
[47:18] Speaker 1: Yeah, it's gonna be interesting. I mean, I hope there's
[47:21] Speaker 1: you know, nerds in a room somewhere figuring it out.
[47:23] Speaker 1: Ways to do this, Like seriously, I mean, because we've
[47:27] Speaker 1: seen what's gone on and with the Iran operation, like
[47:30] Speaker 1: it seems like we're really behind. And it's unfortunate, right
[47:33] Speaker 1: because we've had over four years of to see what's
[47:37] Speaker 1: been going on in Ukraine and stuff and see like
[47:38] Speaker 1: the innovations they've made, and it's kind of a bummer,
[47:41] Speaker 1: like we haven't made those same innovations because we know
[47:44] Speaker 1: what's coming, right, or at least have that arrow in
[47:48] Speaker 1: your quill or whatever, right like be able to protect,
[47:53] Speaker 1: you know, have some force protection.
[47:56] Speaker 3: So can I rewind a little bit please?
[48:00] Speaker 2: We were we were, we were dancing a little bit
[48:02] Speaker 2: on the our inability to effectively do mine countermeasure operations.
[48:09] Speaker 4: And that.
[48:11] Speaker 2: Is due to a systemic problem that we have had
[48:14] Speaker 2: now for over a decade and we've lived through it
[48:17] Speaker 2: and it's still currently happening. But it's called continuing resolution.
[48:23] Speaker 2: And what happens as the is our is, our nation
[48:27] Speaker 2: has become more polarized with politics, and the left and
[48:31] Speaker 2: the right continue to kind of grow further and further apart.
[48:34] Speaker 1: Is that.
[48:37] Speaker 3: With different priorities and and you know, dying on.
[48:42] Speaker 2: That sword or or willing to fall on that sword
[48:45] Speaker 2: and not approve an annual budget and only do it
[48:51] Speaker 2: in short segments.
[48:53] Speaker 4: What it is, what.
[48:54] Speaker 2: Happens is systemically the long program items that you have
[48:58] Speaker 2: in your defense capability, your ability to produce ships, your
[49:02] Speaker 2: ability to produce submarines, your ability to produce strategic bombers,
[49:06] Speaker 2: your ability to crank out strategic munitions, that goes away
[49:10] Speaker 2: because you don't have a steady funding stream. Instead you
[49:13] Speaker 2: have continuing resolution, little little bits to go here, here, here,
[49:18] Speaker 2: and here. But it undermines the long term programmatics of
[49:21] Speaker 2: your defense capabilities. And so now the mind account or
[49:26] Speaker 2: the MCMs have gone away, the US does and so effectively, yeah,
[49:32] Speaker 2: you need a wooden hulled non magnetic ship to be
[49:35] Speaker 2: able to go in there with right search surface, subsurface
[49:41] Speaker 2: bottom and do the searches to be able to base
[49:44] Speaker 2: do mind count measure operations.
[49:46] Speaker 3: And we don't have. It's out of our it's out
[49:49] Speaker 3: of requiverment.
[49:51] Speaker 2: And that is an absolute secondary impact because of our
[49:56] Speaker 2: inability to pass annual defense budgets, which is driven by
[50:01] Speaker 2: our political polarity.
[50:05] Speaker 3: And we've had it for too many years.
[50:06] Speaker 2: And this is the first instance where we're really seeing
[50:09] Speaker 2: it on a strategic level and it's playing out. But
[50:13] Speaker 2: this is this is this is this is a systemic problem.
[50:16] Speaker 2: Is the polarization of politics. Fortunately, I'm a political Sometimes
[50:21] Speaker 2: I vote left, sometimes I vote right, depending on on
[50:25] Speaker 2: what I see as the most important issue at the time,
[50:27] Speaker 2: not registered in either party. But that's the reality of
[50:31] Speaker 2: how the political polarization is playing out in our.
[50:34] Speaker 3: Defense right and d you know, to your wish, I
[50:39] Speaker 3: can tell you those nerds do exist. But better than
[50:42] Speaker 3: that because because I'm not one of those guys, you know,
[50:45] Speaker 3: those are the guys I call to ask questions. Those
[50:47] Speaker 3: are the guys that used to program my radio because
[50:49] Speaker 3: I was incapable, and now they're working on these much
[50:52] Speaker 3: more complex problems. So I'm reaching out to them constantly
[50:56] Speaker 3: trying to you know, what is what's new in the space,
[50:58] Speaker 3: what's new, what's because the the space is becoming crowded
[51:01] Speaker 3: quickly because there's a need and there's capital available. So
[51:05] Speaker 3: how do I know separate the whet from the chap?
[51:07] Speaker 3: You know, what are the what are the good technologies
[51:09] Speaker 3: and what shouldn't I spend my time on evaluating so
[51:12] Speaker 3: we can incorporate into our training. But better than that
[51:16] Speaker 3: is the problem solvers, the you know, the guys that
[51:19] Speaker 3: going to actually employ it, who are now moved on
[51:23] Speaker 3: from active duty are also entering the space. So I
[51:26] Speaker 3: have a lot of friends that have moved on to
[51:28] Speaker 3: uas companies. You know, you would have been unheard of
[51:30] Speaker 3: ten years ago, the guys that were just doing not
[51:32] Speaker 3: just doing contract but doing contracting and working in the
[51:35] Speaker 3: defense space, you know, selling uniforms and body armor and
[51:39] Speaker 3: things like that, are now all towards gravitating towards us
[51:42] Speaker 3: encounter us for the same reasons. So the problem is
[51:45] Speaker 3: being solved by a lot of folks, and that's why
[51:47] Speaker 3: I'm so confident that we'll get to the right solutions.
[51:50] Speaker 3: You know, instance, only pop the lid on politics. I
[51:53] Speaker 3: wasn't I wasn't going to go there, certainly not on
[51:55] Speaker 3: your podcast, but you know, would say, how do we
[51:59] Speaker 3: how did we In World War Two? We mobilized as
[52:02] Speaker 3: a country and built a manufacturing base that our enemies
[52:06] Speaker 3: couldn't keep up with. And we're in a similar situation
[52:09] Speaker 3: right now. But it's technology, you know, So how are
[52:12] Speaker 3: we going to innovate with these new capabilities as new technologies,
[52:16] Speaker 3: artificial intelligence, autonomous systems, things like that, How do we
[52:21] Speaker 3: innovate and iterate and employ faster than our enemies? And that,
[52:25] Speaker 3: you know goes to the broader discussion of within the
[52:28] Speaker 3: states you're seeing to this, you know, political division. Some
[52:33] Speaker 3: states are really wanting to regulate AI at a state level,
[52:37] Speaker 3: and other states are opting to let the technology just
[52:41] Speaker 3: kind of, you know, let the market decide where this
[52:43] Speaker 3: technology goes, and I think until the federal government they've
[52:46] Speaker 3: started to step in most recently and do what they
[52:50] Speaker 3: can as far as executive orders to just kind of
[52:52] Speaker 3: let let the technology develop, give it some guardrails, some
[52:55] Speaker 3: obvious guardrails for safety of citizens and things like that,
[52:59] Speaker 3: but just let the let the market decide where this goes.
[53:03] Speaker 3: Tie our hands behind our back while our enemies, as
[53:06] Speaker 3: we discussed earlier, are doing none of that. In fact,
[53:08] Speaker 3: a lot of these technologies are state sponsored in the
[53:10] Speaker 3: case of China, so not only are they free to it,
[53:13] Speaker 3: you know, they're they're iterating freely, but they're being backed
[53:16] Speaker 3: by their their federal government. Just some of the things
[53:20] Speaker 3: that we need to resolve as a country and kind
[53:23] Speaker 3: of come together and and and solve this, you know,
[53:26] Speaker 3: regulatory issue. You know, we can't have fifty states each
[53:29] Speaker 3: regulating AI and autonomy differently. How are we going to
[53:33] Speaker 3: power these engines, you know, and get on board on
[53:35] Speaker 3: those on those big problems and kind of understand that
[53:39] Speaker 3: we are at critical mass right now with this new
[53:41] Speaker 3: technology and its capability to be used against us, and
[53:45] Speaker 3: we need to be innovating, you know, as fast as
[53:47] Speaker 3: we can. We're so competitive right now. We've been ahead
[53:51] Speaker 3: of our peers because we've got a culture of innovation
[53:55] Speaker 3: and incredible entrepreneurs and credible founders, and we need to
[53:59] Speaker 3: suppor work them and not hamstring them through regulation or
[54:04] Speaker 3: you know, billionaire and wealth taxes things like that that
[54:07] Speaker 3: forced them to make it harder to create these small
[54:10] Speaker 3: startups and or you move off.
[54:12] Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it's gonna be an interesting uh next few,
[54:16] Speaker 1: you know, five years to a decade. Listen, I hope
[54:20] Speaker 1: ai you know, cures cancer. You know what I mean.
[54:23] Speaker 1: It's it's like it's a killer pitch, right, Like it's
[54:25] Speaker 1: a killer pitch for raising uh seed funding.
[54:28] Speaker 3: It already killed or cured cancer and a dog in Australia.
[54:31] Speaker 3: It wasn't that cancer that the guy. I don't know,
[54:33] Speaker 3: but I like this way through diagnosis, dog came up
[54:36] Speaker 3: with a solution and yeah, that's that's real. I don't
[54:38] Speaker 3: know if it was cancer, but he definitely saves don't So.
[54:41] Speaker 1: Yeah, listen, I hope it makes the world a better
[54:43] Speaker 1: place and doesn't like, you know, enslave us all or
[54:47] Speaker 1: if it doesn't slave us all and it gets us
[54:48] Speaker 1: all out of jobs, like at least like you know,
[54:50] Speaker 1: some universal basic income or something right like, so the
[54:53] Speaker 1: human race can actually like survive while we're not. We
[54:56] Speaker 1: don't do anything. Yeah, just like yeah, like the matrix.
[55:02] Speaker 1: Y guys, what what do you guys up to. Let's
[55:07] Speaker 1: talk a little bit about LOBO and uh what you
[55:09] Speaker 1: guys do. And also Eric, I'd love to talk about
[55:11] Speaker 1: n Child Soldiering too, that great uh not for profit
[55:15] Speaker 1: or charity that you guys run.
[55:18] Speaker 2: Uh yeah, yeah, So uh LOBO, you know, we advise,
[55:24] Speaker 2: consultant teach, we act and and really as it relates
[55:29] Speaker 2: to you know, kind of the future of warfare on
[55:31] Speaker 2: that teaching aspect of it. We have absolutely pressed since
[55:38] Speaker 2: we started LOBO in twenty nineteen to uh develop facilities
[55:45] Speaker 2: and a mindset of.
[55:47] Speaker 3: Pushing the envelope. And we are we have you know,
[55:51] Speaker 3: we've we've got a great.
[55:55] Speaker 2: Urban range or sorry, rural range down in south central Montana.
[56:00] Speaker 2: It's about seventy thousand acres in total that ties and
[56:02] Speaker 2: all sorts of public land, and we have all our
[56:04] Speaker 2: relationships in place. But you know, we have everything you
[56:08] Speaker 2: need to kind of challenge and run realistic training for
[56:13] Speaker 2: the tactics.
[56:14] Speaker 3: That we know right now.
[56:15] Speaker 2: And what we did was in twenty twenty we pressed
[56:19] Speaker 2: to make sure that we had also the FAA permitting
[56:23] Speaker 2: to do all of the unmannedrone integration as well. I
[56:28] Speaker 2: saw how important that was. I knew it was going
[56:30] Speaker 2: to be the next evolutionary step kind of warfare. So
[56:34] Speaker 2: our range manager, great guy named Bill Wood, he did that.
[56:37] Speaker 2: So we have the air ground speed waiver, the nighttime waiver,
[56:42] Speaker 2: and then there's there's one this kind of the Holy Grail.
[56:45] Speaker 2: It's really hard to get and it's a be online
[56:47] Speaker 2: a site waver and so it's a very unrestricted airspace Salsach, Montana.
[56:53] Speaker 2: It's very remote. So we have the ability to train
[56:56] Speaker 2: and run all of these this drone integration into either
[57:01] Speaker 2: mobility training or ground training or a combination thereof. So
[57:05] Speaker 2: we've been doing a lot of winter mobility training over
[57:07] Speaker 2: the last couple of years. We're now evolving that into
[57:10] Speaker 2: you know, the summer, spring, summer.
[57:13] Speaker 4: And fall.
[57:14] Speaker 2: But that ability to to to walk to help these
[57:19] Speaker 2: units break this evolutionary step and not just get in
[57:23] Speaker 2: in one thing that's going to get them killed, but
[57:26] Speaker 2: let allow them to have the right air assets, drone assets,
[57:31] Speaker 2: and the right range facilities to do things like come
[57:35] Speaker 2: in from all points of the compass on motor bikes
[57:37] Speaker 2: or or razors or things like that and run the
[57:41] Speaker 2: style of f MPs and let them work out the
[57:43] Speaker 2: TTPs that work for them. But we're ready to help,
[57:47] Speaker 2: and we have everything in line and we're in discussion
[57:50] Speaker 2: with you know, a multiple multiple numbers of units to
[57:53] Speaker 2: come out and do that. Whether that's federal or d
[57:55] Speaker 2: O D doesn't matter us. So that's kind of the
[57:58] Speaker 2: main focus that we have right now on LOBO is
[58:02] Speaker 2: is really just making sure that we're a part of
[58:04] Speaker 2: the dialogue for these guys to come out and we
[58:07] Speaker 2: have the right ways to facilitate them to help find
[58:10] Speaker 2: what the new tactics, techniques and procedures will be for.
[58:13] Speaker 3: Them to take that next step.
[58:17] Speaker 2: In addition to uh, you know, we you know, this
[58:20] Speaker 2: is the first annual Whitefish Security Summit that we have
[58:23] Speaker 2: going on, and you know that's basically you know, kind
[58:28] Speaker 2: of soft meets intel meets influence, but it's it's a
[58:32] Speaker 2: very interesting blend of discussions across the spectrum. I've learned
[58:38] Speaker 2: a lot over the last two days. Just by being
[58:40] Speaker 2: a fly on the wall with the with the resident
[58:43] Speaker 2: experts that decided to come be a part of this
[58:46] Speaker 2: security summit, I've learned a lot and it's it's a
[58:49] Speaker 2: very it's a destination place. Obviously, you can see behind us.
[58:53] Speaker 2: It's you know, it's scene in Montana. It's a nice
[58:55] Speaker 2: place to be. But then when you combine it with
[58:58] Speaker 2: really high obtane discussion, it's it's it's a great event.
[59:02] Speaker 2: We're going to keep it going every year.
[59:04] Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm excited about it. I'm definitely excited for like
[59:06] Speaker 1: us to come out there and like you know, set
[59:08] Speaker 1: up a ton of interviews and stuff like that be
[59:10] Speaker 1: a part of it too. So, like if everybody wants
[59:14] Speaker 1: to check it out, the link is in the description
[59:16] Speaker 1: for the white Fish Security Summit. They had General Stanley
[59:20] Speaker 1: Stanley McCrystal this year, as like the keynote. You know,
[59:22] Speaker 1: it's pretty big wig. You know, it's a big wig. Scott,
[59:27] Speaker 1: what are you up to? You working with Lobo? Are
[59:29] Speaker 1: you doing anything else? Like you tell me about yourself. Also, Scott,
[59:32] Speaker 1: I have a question for you too. I'm going to
[59:34] Speaker 1: ask you publicly. We had John Hackett, he had to
[59:37] Speaker 1: jump out real quick because he had another thing. He
[59:39] Speaker 1: had a BBC interview or something he had to jump to.
[59:41] Speaker 1: We've had John on the show on Team House. We've
[59:44] Speaker 1: had Eric on the show. We've had Mick on the show.
[59:47] Speaker 1: When Scott Canino coming on the Team House, it's all
[59:49] Speaker 1: about his career.
[59:53] Speaker 3: You just you come to Montana, sign up for one
[59:56] Speaker 3: of our training events and we can go and everything
[1:00:00] Speaker 3: I learned now, Yeah, I would love to have you
[1:00:03] Speaker 3: guys up for the White Pair Security Summit and or
[1:00:06] Speaker 3: you know, any other event. I think you guys woul
[1:00:08] Speaker 3: really benefit. That's just as Eric had mentioned. There's a
[1:00:11] Speaker 3: lot of folks that would be happy to sit down
[1:00:13] Speaker 3: with you. You could do it really a best of show.
[1:00:16] Speaker 3: I was fortunate enough a couple of years ago Eric
[1:00:18] Speaker 3: and Mick brought me on to kind of head up
[1:00:20] Speaker 3: Lobo Tactical and the vision there as they were already running.
[1:00:25] Speaker 3: It was let's, you know, let's fill the holes that
[1:00:27] Speaker 3: a lot of other training companies aren't doing when our
[1:00:30] Speaker 3: warfare is easy in Montana based on setting. But better
[1:00:34] Speaker 3: than that, we have guys on staff Eric, a lot
[1:00:38] Speaker 3: of our mountain guides that have done this real world,
[1:00:41] Speaker 3: so we take it's complimentary. We take the best of
[1:00:44] Speaker 3: the tactical world, we take the best of the civilian
[1:00:47] Speaker 3: recreational rule. We marry those two ups. So those are
[1:00:50] Speaker 3: the instructors that are in front of students, and you
[1:00:52] Speaker 3: get the best lessons learned both from a recreational side,
[1:00:55] Speaker 3: how to do conduct things safely, tactical side, you know,
[1:00:58] Speaker 3: how do you keep yourself alive and remain deadly? So
[1:01:03] Speaker 3: heading up lobo tactical and really again we're just trying
[1:01:06] Speaker 3: to find those training opportunities where we believe based off
[1:01:12] Speaker 3: of our backgrounds and our network that are out there
[1:01:15] Speaker 3: developing technologies like uas and counter uas, get those in
[1:01:18] Speaker 3: front of the guys. And then really the entire training
[1:01:22] Speaker 3: philosophy is we're not just going to you know, to
[1:01:25] Speaker 3: dictate how you do business. It's come in and it's
[1:01:29] Speaker 3: let's focus on the why, what are you guys trying
[1:01:31] Speaker 3: to do, and let's work with you to understand how
[1:01:36] Speaker 3: you develop these TTPs because again, you know, we're generally
[1:01:40] Speaker 3: not training traditional small unit tactics. We're employing these technologies
[1:01:44] Speaker 3: or we're doing in a winter environment. Every unit has
[1:01:47] Speaker 3: a different requirement, a different mission. So we just want
[1:01:50] Speaker 3: to have the conversation with you, help you develop these
[1:01:53] Speaker 3: tactics and TTPs, but most importantly understand the why because
[1:01:56] Speaker 3: eventually you're going to leave us. You're going to go
[1:01:58] Speaker 3: do this real world. The environment, the battleground's going to change,
[1:02:02] Speaker 3: and you still need to get to the best end state,
[1:02:04] Speaker 3: the best solution, and you may not have us, you know,
[1:02:07] Speaker 3: next to you to do it. So I want to
[1:02:08] Speaker 3: facilitate the discussion so everybody knows how to communicate, how
[1:02:12] Speaker 3: to be tough on one another, and how to solve problems.
[1:02:16] Speaker 1: Yeah, sounds like I'm in you know, if I was
[1:02:18] Speaker 1: a Copper or a DoD guy. It does sound like
[1:02:22] Speaker 1: super interesting and I want everyone to check it out.
[1:02:24] Speaker 1: Those links for everything or in the description down below.
[1:02:28] Speaker 1: Eric talked to me about and child soldiering again one
[1:02:31] Speaker 1: more time, because that's.
[1:02:31] Speaker 2: Yeah, and child soldiering is you know, I mean that
[1:02:35] Speaker 2: that came about after me, Nick and I really through
[1:02:39] Speaker 2: the eyes of two former child soldiers that had been
[1:02:44] Speaker 2: involved heavily with the Lord's Resistance Army in northern Uganda.
[1:02:48] Speaker 2: So that was you know, darfour, and there was this
[1:02:51] Speaker 2: army that was made almost entirely of children, twenty plus
[1:02:55] Speaker 2: twenty plus thousand kids that had been weaponized, and they
[1:02:58] Speaker 2: were they were, you know, extraordinarily lethal guerrilla fighters. But
[1:03:04] Speaker 2: through the eyes of two child soldiers that came out
[1:03:06] Speaker 2: of the bush and then had started to help the
[1:03:10] Speaker 2: Ugana government, you know, in ways that of not killing kids,
[1:03:15] Speaker 2: but bringing drawing kids out of the bush to reintegrate
[1:03:19] Speaker 2: them into society. We saw how dark and how cancerous
[1:03:24] Speaker 2: the art of child soldiering is, and so we decided
[1:03:28] Speaker 2: to do something about it. We made a documentary. That
[1:03:31] Speaker 2: documentary then has led to a book, All the Glimmering Stars.
[1:03:35] Speaker 2: It's for sale on Amazon, and part of the proceeds
[1:03:39] Speaker 2: of the book go towards a five o' one c three.
[1:03:42] Speaker 2: We stood up, which is called in child soldiering, and
[1:03:45] Speaker 2: in child soldiering we are we have where we're centering.
[1:03:49] Speaker 2: What we're looking to do is we're looking to stand
[1:03:51] Speaker 2: up basically a center of excellence in Uganda. And what
[1:03:57] Speaker 2: it'll do is there's no place on the planet that
[1:04:00] Speaker 2: is is you know, it's a place for the trainers
[1:04:03] Speaker 2: to come and get trained. If you train the trainers, right,
[1:04:06] Speaker 2: I mean, it's it's it's a military moniker. We adapt
[1:04:10] Speaker 2: during the GUI like hey, train the trainer, they go back.
[1:04:13] Speaker 2: It's an exponential return. So there's there's no nobody really
[1:04:17] Speaker 2: doing that in the child soldiering realm. And unfortunately, the
[1:04:23] Speaker 2: child soldiering realm is growing. Even just the other day,
[1:04:28] Speaker 2: I ran just lowered the age of for military mandatory
[1:04:32] Speaker 2: military service at twelve. Every single year, our aisle eyes
[1:04:39] Speaker 2: are are given a pass on, you know, the funding
[1:04:43] Speaker 2: of the use of child soldiers. I personally watched when
[1:04:48] Speaker 2: a desperate parents and Somalia had no more to pay
[1:04:52] Speaker 2: their taxes to al Shabab. They had no more camels,
[1:04:56] Speaker 2: they had no more money, they had no more more
[1:04:58] Speaker 2: crop to give to Alshiam, so they gave them kids.
[1:05:02] Speaker 2: As was taking the kids and turn them into an army. Right. So, yes,
[1:05:06] Speaker 2: it's growing, and it's growing across the planet. It isn't
[1:05:09] Speaker 2: just something that happens and small yet it's you know,
[1:05:13] Speaker 2: it's it's it's across it's growing. It's you know, all
[1:05:17] Speaker 2: the way down through like Central and South America, the Philippines, Columbia.
[1:05:20] Speaker 2: It's alive and well, so we are we are acting
[1:05:24] Speaker 2: through n child soldiering. We're looking to stand up this
[1:05:26] Speaker 2: Center of Excellence in Uganda. They will be the first
[1:05:29] Speaker 2: train the trainer because that is the place we know
[1:05:33] Speaker 2: has done the complete cycle and there are a number
[1:05:37] Speaker 2: of retired, re recovered child soldiers there that can walk
[1:05:42] Speaker 2: the whole process through effectively to other people that come
[1:05:46] Speaker 2: there for them to then go back and start to
[1:05:49] Speaker 2: do that where where they live, where they where they
[1:05:52] Speaker 2: have child soldier problems.
[1:05:55] Speaker 1: At the website, if I remember correctly, he is Enchildsoldiering
[1:05:57] Speaker 1: dot org.
[1:05:59] Speaker 4: It is.
[1:06:00] Speaker 1: Yeah, that link is in the description. If anybody can
[1:06:03] Speaker 1: donate a little bit of money to it. It's a
[1:06:05] Speaker 1: righteous cause for sure. You know, it's you know, insane
[1:06:10] Speaker 1: to really think about and like look at and see
[1:06:12] Speaker 1: what's going on in the world with kids, like right,
[1:06:15] Speaker 1: like kids aren't supposed to be fighting in wars. Guys,
[1:06:20] Speaker 1: incredible show, Scott. You'll think about it, right the team.
[1:06:23] Speaker 3: House, you can get it. I'll think about it, Yeah.
[1:06:28] Speaker 1: Because because I'm relatively relentless too, you know what I mean.
[1:06:33] Speaker 1: I'm trying to get the whole Lobo. You know, whole Lobo,
[1:06:37] Speaker 1: you know, the about us page. I want to get
[1:06:39] Speaker 1: all everybody. Oh yeah, yeah, some of the incredible people
[1:06:43] Speaker 1: on that.
[1:06:44] Speaker 3: If you had the advisors, that'll take you a while.
[1:06:47] Speaker 3: There's a lot of them.
[1:06:47] Speaker 2: Yeah, I know.
[1:06:48] Speaker 3: That's the thing.
[1:06:48] Speaker 1: I've been chasing Andy Hartzog for like a year, two years.
[1:06:53] Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, mom's the word out of Andy. It's
[1:06:57] Speaker 1: been tough. But I will not relent either.
[1:06:59] Speaker 2: On a whitefish security.
[1:07:01] Speaker 3: So you should just come on up.
[1:07:02] Speaker 1: Yeah no, but I like getting one on one because
[1:07:05] Speaker 1: you guys can get a little bit more in depth.
[1:07:06] Speaker 3: You know, come on.
[1:07:09] Speaker 1: We don't want to, we don't want to like a
[1:07:10] Speaker 1: quick thirty minute, we want to. You know, you guys
[1:07:12] Speaker 1: had insane careers. You should uh, you know, a lot
[1:07:15] Speaker 1: of time should be allotted for it.
[1:07:17] Speaker 3: I think. Yeah, no worries, cool.
[1:07:19] Speaker 1: Scotts to think about it. Okay, I'll write that down.
[1:07:22] Speaker 1: I'll check in again with you in like a couple
[1:07:24] Speaker 1: of months.
[1:07:24] Speaker 3: Don't worry.
[1:07:25] Speaker 1: Guys, A pleasure. Really appreciate this.
[1:07:29] Speaker 3: Thanks d Appreciate everything you're doing.
[1:07:32] Speaker 1: See you next time.
[1:07:36] Speaker 5: Hey, guys, I want to take a moment to tell
[1:07:38] Speaker 5: you about the Team House podcast newsletter. If you go
[1:07:41] Speaker 5: and subscribe, it's totally free, and what it will do
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[1:07:48] Speaker 5: that we put out, the things that are on the
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[1:07:56] Speaker 5: I write journalistically with Sean Naylor on the high Side,
[1:08:00] Speaker 5: anything else that we have going on, books, we recommend
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[1:08:34] Speaker 3: The link will be down the description

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