# How JSOC Uses Instagram Ads to Track Terrorists | Mike Yeagley | Ep. 401

An episode of [The Team House](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1492797340), 14 Mar 2026, 2 h 01 min.

Audio: https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/pscrb.fm/rss/p/clrtpod.com/m/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/70631052/jsoc_ad_taregting_audio.mp3

We sit down with ad tech and data analytics expert Mike Yeagley to discuss how commercial advertising data became a powerful intelligence tool used by the U.S. national security community. He explains how smartphones, apps, and location data can reveal patterns of life and how programs developed with special operations helped track terrorists and understand targets on the battlefield. We also discuss privacy, surveillance, and what this technology means for intelligence operations and everyday people. Today's Sponsors: Mando ⬇️ Control Body Odor ANYWHERE with MANDO and get 20% off + free shipping with promo code \[TEAMHOUSE\] at https://shopmando.com/ GhostBed⬇️ https://www.ghostbed.com/house FOR 10% off! Miracle Made ⬇️ Upgrade your sleep with Miracle Made! Go to https://trymiracle.com/HOUSE and use the code HOUSE to claim your FREE 3 PIECE TOWEL SET and SAVE over 40% OFF.” ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- For ad free video and audio and access to live streams and Eyes On Geopolitics...JOIN OUR PATREON! https://www.patreon.com/c/TheTeamHouse To help support the show and for all bonus content including: -live shows and asking guest questions -ad free audio and video -early access to shows -Access to ALL bonus segments with our guests Subscribe to our Patreon! ⬇️ https://www.patreon.com/TheTeamHouse Support the show here:⬇️ https://www.patreon.com/TheTeamHouse ___________________________________________________ PRE ORDER JACK'S NEW BOOK "THE MOST DANGEROUS MAN" ⬇️⬇️⬇️⬇️⬇️ https://a.co/d/0eOl8czU Subscribe to the new EYES ON podcast here:⬇️ https://www.youtube.com/@EyesOnGeopoliticsPod/featured __________________________________ Jack Murphy's new book "We Defy: The Lost Chapters of Special Forces History" ⬇️ https://www.amazon.com/We-Defy-Chapters-Special-History-ebook/dp/B0DCGC1N1N/ —————————————————————— Or make a one time donation at: ⬇️ https://ko-fi.com/theteamhouse Social Media: ⬇️ The Team House Instagram: https://instagram.com/the.team.house?utm_medium=copy_link The Team House Twitter: https://twitter.com/TheTeamHousePod Jack’s Instagram: https://instagram.com/jackmcmurph?utm_medium=copy_link Jack’s Twitter: https://twitter.com/jackmurphyrgr?s=21 Dave’s Twitter: https://twitter.com/dave_parke?s=21 Team House Discord: ⬇️ https://discord.gg/wHFHYM6 SubReddit: ⬇️ https://www.reddit.com/r/TheTeamHouse/ Jack Murphy's memoir "Murphy's Law" can be found here:⬇️ https://www.amazon.com/Murphys-Law-Journey-Investigative-Journalist/dp/1501191241 The Team Room Reading Room (Amazon Affiliate links):⬇️ https://jackmurphywrites.com/the-team-room-reading-room/ Intro music by https://www.youtube.com/user/RemixSample "Karl Casey @ White Bat Audio" 00:00 Start 05:14 Mike Yeagley’s Tech Background 11:16 How Ad Tech Works 18:10 JSOC Discovers Ad Tech Intelligence 24:50 Fort Bragg to Syria Discovery 30:19 Smartphones and OPSEC Risks 40:34 Operating Under Surveillance 47:59 Locomotive to VISR Program 57:07 Tracking ISIS Targets with Data 1:00:35 Policy and Bureaucratic Challenges 1:08:41 Data-Driven Human Targeting 1:13:08 Legal Issues Using Civilian Data 1:21:14 Social Media and Disinformation 1:26:23 Why “Going Dark” Doesn’t Work 1:34:54 Training the Intel Community 1:40:12 The Unplugged Privacy Phone 1:46:30 Privacy and Future Tradecraft Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-team-house--5960890/support.

## Transcript

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[2:42] Speaker 3: Hey everyone, welcome to episode four hundred and one of
[2:44] Speaker 3: The Team House. I'm Jack Murphy here today with our
[2:46] Speaker 3: guest Mike Yeagley. Mike had a long career and this
[2:51] Speaker 3: is a little bit different for our podcast in ad technology,
[2:55] Speaker 3: but that also played into using that technology for intelligence.
[2:59] Speaker 3: Per p is with a special operations community and Mike
[3:03] Speaker 3: was a big part of the program that was called
[3:06] Speaker 3: the Locomotive and the Advisor and consults with the intelligence
[3:11] Speaker 3: community with our government and actually has some very interesting
[3:15] Speaker 3: stories to talk about regarding OPSEC and signature reduction and
[3:20] Speaker 3: how we go looking for bad guys out there in
[3:22] Speaker 3: the world. So thank you Mike.
[3:24] Speaker 2: For us, thanks for having me. It's great to be
[3:26] Speaker 2: in the Team House.
[3:27] Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, this is a I mean, I love as
[3:30] Speaker 3: much as I love interviewing like rangers and operators and
[3:34] Speaker 3: stuff like that, it's cool to get the behind the
[3:36] Speaker 3: scenes and kind of hear the other side of the
[3:38] Speaker 3: story because there's a lot, as I'm sure you learned
[3:41] Speaker 3: when you were working there, there's a lot that goes
[3:43] Speaker 3: into making these operations happen.
[3:45] Speaker 2: It's so if you think about intelligence as a data set,
[3:54] Speaker 2: whether it's human, e lent, sigan, they are data sets.
[4:01] Speaker 2: And there's this other component of data set that is
[4:06] Speaker 2: called commercial data. It is the data that everybody generates,
[4:10] Speaker 2: the telemetry off of your devices, your watches, your smartphones,
[4:13] Speaker 2: your smart refrigerators, your cars, everything. We basically have agreed
[4:23] Speaker 2: to carry sensors with us wherever we go, and those
[4:26] Speaker 2: centers have become systemic to our livelihoods. But that data
[4:34] Speaker 2: tells a very very interesting, very intimate story, and that
[4:40] Speaker 2: story is told about operators, case officers, special agents, the
[4:48] Speaker 2: community that has acute requirements for discretion or privacy. They
[4:57] Speaker 2: can't outrun this, our adversaries can't outrun it. And so
[5:04] Speaker 2: it is emerging as an hint that is low risk,
[5:11] Speaker 2: low cost to acquire compared to other forms, and when
[5:18] Speaker 2: introduced as this new concept about ten years ago. You know,
[5:24] Speaker 2: people were comparing it to the you know, this is
[5:27] Speaker 2: like the M four. You know, it's revolutionary. Meanwhile, the
[5:32] Speaker 2: advertising community had been doing it since smartphones became ubiquitous.
[5:38] Speaker 2: Some of the best geospatial intelligence analysts work on Madison
[5:42] Speaker 2: Avenue wearing skinny jeans, but they are developing patterns of
[5:47] Speaker 2: life of consumers for a different conversion metric. They're looking
[5:51] Speaker 2: for lyft and to sell us stuff we don't need,
[5:54] Speaker 2: whereas the conversion metric, whether it's a targeting application or
[5:59] Speaker 2: an opset or counterintelligence application is the words are different,
[6:03] Speaker 2: but at the same we're looking for the same kind
[6:06] Speaker 2: of lift. And we think about this the intelligence world
[6:15] Speaker 2: as having the answers to everything and from the perspective
[6:21] Speaker 2: of innovation and what the taxpayers should expect of their
[6:26] Speaker 2: government to be innovating. There are pockets within our government
[6:32] Speaker 2: that do this very well, and they're usually not it's
[6:37] Speaker 2: not in their remit to be innovators. They're doing it
[6:41] Speaker 2: because the mission requires it. And this program happened because
[6:47] Speaker 2: of twenty eight year olds who weren't told to go
[6:52] Speaker 2: and be innovative. They just were. And that should make
[6:56] Speaker 2: us feel good. Yeah, So if you think about this
[7:02] Speaker 2: evolution over this period of time, we've gotten a little better,
[7:10] Speaker 2: but we need to be able to move a little faster.
[7:15] Speaker 2: We're still trying to figure out what to make of
[7:19] Speaker 2: commercial data. Well, we've had ten years. We should be
[7:24] Speaker 2: beyond the policy paper and we should be in full
[7:28] Speaker 2: operational mode.
[7:29] Speaker 3: Well, let's take a step back here. You've spent about
[7:34] Speaker 3: twenty years in the private sector. Tell us a little
[7:38] Speaker 3: bit about, you know, kind of like how you found
[7:40] Speaker 3: your way into that line of work. What did you
[7:42] Speaker 3: start doing as an entry level guy versus where you
[7:45] Speaker 3: ended up twenty years later.
[7:46] Speaker 2: Well, so I came of age in the dot com revolution.
[7:53] Speaker 2: I worked for a bunch of startups in that period
[7:57] Speaker 2: of time. None of them exited, which is why I'm
[8:03] Speaker 2: still working. But it was I've always been in the
[8:07] Speaker 2: data analytics field, either as a project manager implementation on
[8:13] Speaker 2: the b D side business development side, but always in
[8:16] Speaker 2: that space of integrating various data sets into what we
[8:22] Speaker 2: would call in the in the community a common operating picture,
[8:26] Speaker 2: or what's called in the in the private sector business intelligence,
[8:30] Speaker 2: where you're looking at, you know, the equivalent would be
[8:34] Speaker 2: you may have heard the story where you've got a
[8:38] Speaker 2: guy who comes into a store and he buys he's
[8:40] Speaker 2: there to buy diapers, and he buys a six pack
[8:43] Speaker 2: of beer, and that correlation is visible in point of
[8:48] Speaker 2: sale data. Well, the same mechanics work when we're talking
[8:52] Speaker 2: about intelligence. We're looking for patterns and correlation and things
[8:57] Speaker 2: that are non obvious. But when you take a step back,
[9:00] Speaker 2: it's like, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. So
[9:03] Speaker 2: twenty years doing that type of work at a higher
[9:08] Speaker 2: speed because of implementation mechanics and things like that.
[9:11] Speaker 3: I mean, the timeframes involved. I mean you're going from
[9:14] Speaker 3: presumably a time when the Internet was still pretty primitive
[9:18] Speaker 3: to the advent of social media. I mean you must
[9:20] Speaker 3: have seen some pretty tremendous changes in your field.
[9:23] Speaker 2: Oh, I mean, so the Internet I was I was
[9:26] Speaker 2: working in this field when the didn't quite know what
[9:30] Speaker 2: the internet was as a delivery mechanism. So think about
[9:35] Speaker 2: it this way. We had electricity and that was that
[9:40] Speaker 2: was groundbreaking. But what was the killer app for electricity?
[9:46] Speaker 2: The light switch that made it I was going to
[9:49] Speaker 2: say ac electricity. The light switch was the equivalent of
[9:54] Speaker 2: the browser R rightace the interface. It made it so
[9:58] Speaker 2: that everybody could use it. You didn't need to write
[10:01] Speaker 2: scripts and code. You could use it, and then it
[10:05] Speaker 2: just became the platform that everything is built off of.
[10:10] Speaker 2: So back then it was interesting if your app was
[10:17] Speaker 2: designed for the web as opposed to being something you'd
[10:21] Speaker 2: go and install on a corporate server and hosted and
[10:25] Speaker 2: you'd have to go to the you know, the AS
[10:28] Speaker 2: four hundred server to get to it. This was pre
[10:32] Speaker 2: those those days and the companies that sort of you know,
[10:37] Speaker 2: there were a lot of companies that were functioning as
[10:41] Speaker 2: companies when they were really just features and functions of
[10:44] Speaker 2: some larger capability, and that's where you started seeing the consolidation.
[10:50] Speaker 2: So yeah, I was in working in the valley when
[10:55] Speaker 2: this was happening. The hubris and the arrogance in the
[11:00] Speaker 2: self righteousness was just like out of control.
[11:03] Speaker 3: When you say that, you mean sort of that like
[11:05] Speaker 3: famous Jurassic Park quote of like, you know, you reign
[11:10] Speaker 3: towards it so quickly that you never really thought if
[11:12] Speaker 3: you should.
[11:13] Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. We thee the idea of I am smarter
[11:19] Speaker 2: and have a vision that others can't quite ponder, and
[11:23] Speaker 2: get only I, only I can see through this, And
[11:28] Speaker 2: so there was a lot of you know, and I was,
[11:31] Speaker 2: I was. I was young at the time, but uh
[11:36] Speaker 2: so I've seen a lot of the failures. I've seen
[11:41] Speaker 2: how things don't scale. And when I started this with
[11:46] Speaker 2: with with Jasock, we were able to look at it
[11:52] Speaker 2: from a perspective of minimum viable product m VP. So
[11:58] Speaker 2: we're not going to try to build boil the ocean
[12:00] Speaker 2: with a match. We're going to start with very basic
[12:03] Speaker 2: functionality and grow it incrementally, just along a linear path,
[12:09] Speaker 2: but doing it in a way where I'm sitting with
[12:13] Speaker 2: intelligence analysts at the Joint Intelligence Brigade the JIB, which
[12:18] Speaker 2: was my sponsoring entity, and sort of walking them through
[12:24] Speaker 2: how this works in there if we could do it
[12:26] Speaker 2: this way, would that And I'm just taking requirements and
[12:29] Speaker 2: sort of building the capability that way. The interesting piece
[12:34] Speaker 2: in all of this was that we decided that the
[12:40] Speaker 2: command did not need more software. They did not need
[12:44] Speaker 2: an interface, they did not need an application. They wanted data.
[12:48] Speaker 2: They wanted the raw data, which you know, we have
[12:54] Speaker 2: our analysts and we have more geospatial capability than we
[12:57] Speaker 2: know what to do with. We want data. Yeah, and
[13:02] Speaker 2: that was that was a that was an interesting decision
[13:07] Speaker 2: because typically people want the easy button. They want a
[13:10] Speaker 2: really cool interface where they can log in do their thing,
[13:15] Speaker 2: they don't have to think about it. We were selling
[13:19] Speaker 2: raw data to Jaysuck.
[13:24] Speaker 3: So before we jump into the military side of it,
[13:27] Speaker 3: I just want to dwell on this just a little
[13:29] Speaker 3: bit longer for some of our viewers and myself included,
[13:32] Speaker 3: who might not be familiar with the industry. When I
[13:36] Speaker 3: think of ad tech, what is ad tech to me?
[13:38] Speaker 3: It is like you see those ads on Facebook.
[13:41] Speaker 2: Yep.
[13:41] Speaker 3: They're targeting me, yes, because they know I like to
[13:44] Speaker 3: paint scale miniatures, so they're going to try to sell
[13:46] Speaker 3: me scale miniatures. Somebody who's a little more wealthy they're
[13:51] Speaker 3: trying to sell them lexuses or something like this. How
[13:55] Speaker 3: does you know if what do you see ad tech
[13:58] Speaker 3: as you know in the industry, What else am I
[14:01] Speaker 3: missing there that it includes?
[14:03] Speaker 2: I mean that's so if you think about ad tech,
[14:05] Speaker 2: ad tech is technology infrastructure powered by data. The underlying
[14:12] Speaker 2: the decisions or the analysis is made through data. And
[14:17] Speaker 2: what ad tech basically is nurturing is this ability to
[14:23] Speaker 2: connect an advertiser with a consumer in a millisecond through
[14:29] Speaker 2: something called real time bidding, where there is space on
[14:33] Speaker 2: your device for an AD placement.
[14:36] Speaker 3: This is like Google ads.
[14:37] Speaker 2: Google ads, yep, yep. So this ad tech is the
[14:41] Speaker 2: infrastructure that makes all of that happen at scale. Where
[14:47] Speaker 2: you're playing a game and you get an AD and
[14:49] Speaker 2: that ad the premise or the thesis is that AD
[14:55] Speaker 2: that you are seeing on your device is relevant to you.
[15:00] Speaker 2: Chances are, because you're playing a game, the AD is
[15:02] Speaker 2: going to source or consider that contextual signal.
[15:08] Speaker 3: You are a gamer, so you'll buy more games, So.
[15:10] Speaker 2: You'll buy more games, so you're probably seeing more ads
[15:13] Speaker 2: for games. I will tell you there is no I
[15:18] Speaker 2: do not know of any situation where ad tech has
[15:21] Speaker 2: intercepted and I've heard this story before, the intercepted somebody
[15:24] Speaker 2: who's on their way to Starbucks with an AD that's
[15:27] Speaker 2: diverted them to some other coffee place. Doesn't work that way.
[15:31] Speaker 2: This is sort of a long tail of targeting you
[15:36] Speaker 2: based upon some contextuals.
[15:38] Speaker 3: It's like, what do they say that somebody has to
[15:40] Speaker 3: have like eight impressions or something like that before for.
[15:43] Speaker 2: Recall and things like that. So yeah, this is what
[15:46] Speaker 2: this is. This is the premise behind advertising, especially when
[15:51] Speaker 2: you see Billboard ads and you ask yourself how that
[15:53] Speaker 2: how's that moving me?
[15:55] Speaker 3: And so what's your role in this industry? Are you
[15:57] Speaker 3: a programmer or you a statistician? What is it?
[16:01] Speaker 2: In that world? I was sourcing and looking at different
[16:06] Speaker 2: data sets to enhance the targeting capability. So the ad
[16:11] Speaker 2: tech world, they didn't invent data brokerage, but they were
[16:17] Speaker 2: big consumers of companies that had data sets that were interesting,
[16:24] Speaker 2: that could provide an unusual signal or a signal that
[16:30] Speaker 2: was a differentiator. And so I came from that angle
[16:34] Speaker 2: of the world where I'm out scouting for data sets
[16:38] Speaker 2: and talking to companies that maybe they don't even know
[16:41] Speaker 2: they've got a data set that's worth anything, and bringing
[16:44] Speaker 2: that to market.
[16:46] Speaker 3: So purely on the commercial side. And like I've known
[16:49] Speaker 3: people that you know, they talk about these folks in
[16:52] Speaker 3: Madison Avenue that almost as life. You know, it's the
[16:55] Speaker 3: Illuminati or something. But I am a little curious, Like
[16:58] Speaker 3: working in this field for twenty years, did you ever
[17:00] Speaker 3: have a moment like holy.
[17:02] Speaker 2: Shit, Yeah, so that I had the epiphany, you know,
[17:07] Speaker 2: was we are building cohorts based upon these very discrete
[17:15] Speaker 2: signals about who they are and what they what they
[17:21] Speaker 2: are likely to do, and at the time being able
[17:28] Speaker 2: to attribute those signals to an actual person the community.
[17:35] Speaker 2: That industry wasn't doing that. They're looking to try to
[17:38] Speaker 2: sell to with a thousand people, But you could resolve
[17:42] Speaker 2: an intense signal based upon an ad ID GPS, and
[17:47] Speaker 2: I think it's what's what's what's important to understand is
[17:51] Speaker 2: that the mobile phone changed advertising. Because advertising was limited
[17:56] Speaker 2: to what you were watching on TV and what you
[18:00] Speaker 2: were doing on your.
[18:01] Speaker 3: Browser, magazines and those kinds of things.
[18:05] Speaker 2: The mobile phone gave a new foundational understanding of human
[18:10] Speaker 2: geography based upon where you go, and that we call
[18:17] Speaker 2: that when you're offline, what are you doing? Well, you're
[18:21] Speaker 2: going to CrossFit, You're going to gun ranges, You're going
[18:25] Speaker 2: to a European car dealership, and then we see you
[18:29] Speaker 2: at three other European car dealerships. You must be in
[18:34] Speaker 2: the market for a European car. And resolving those signals
[18:37] Speaker 2: and being able to then sell a group of people
[18:41] Speaker 2: that are indicating that they are interested in a European
[18:46] Speaker 2: import as a very precise cohort group of likely buyers
[18:53] Speaker 2: changed everything. Now, what I will tell you is that
[18:58] Speaker 2: cat videos don't sell Nikes and Facebook or metal learn
[19:02] Speaker 2: that really hard when they lost the ad ID three
[19:07] Speaker 2: years ago cost them about ten million dollars in over
[19:12] Speaker 2: two quarters because that precise the ability to append your
[19:19] Speaker 2: offline patterns of life to a stable identifier. This is
[19:26] Speaker 2: if you're on your mobile device and you you go
[19:30] Speaker 2: to privacy settings and you say don't no cross tracking,
[19:35] Speaker 2: or you turn off all of your location services. That
[19:39] Speaker 2: upended companies like Facebook and how they were doing targeted ads,
[19:45] Speaker 2: and that was again another change in that industry that
[19:49] Speaker 2: drove advertising to new levels of inference and awareness and
[19:57] Speaker 2: being able to connect the dots that aren't so obvious,
[20:03] Speaker 2: to understand intent signals and don't confuse an advertiser and
[20:10] Speaker 2: an adversary. They're doing the same thing. Conversion metrics are
[20:13] Speaker 2: a little different, right, but there's not there's not a
[20:17] Speaker 2: lot of difference in how they target.
[20:21] Speaker 3: Tell us the story about how you were talking to
[20:25] Speaker 3: a company about ad tech and how Jaysack initially approached you.
[20:29] Speaker 2: So this is I set the stage. I'm at a
[20:34] Speaker 2: very bougie hotel doing a presentation to an investor conference
[20:39] Speaker 2: of of of hedge funds. Their quantitative analysts who do
[20:46] Speaker 2: nothing but crunch data looking for signal in that data
[20:51] Speaker 2: to feed their black boxes looking for by signals that
[20:55] Speaker 2: nobody else can see. And so I'm giving this presentation
[21:00] Speaker 2: about alternative data and particularly this new sort of data
[21:05] Speaker 2: set that gives high fidelity information about what's going on
[21:10] Speaker 2: at locations. And so I wrap up my presentation. I
[21:16] Speaker 2: was given a bunch of use cases involving the United States,
[21:20] Speaker 2: and as you know, people do when they're presenting them,
[21:22] Speaker 2: sort of dwelling at the podium, answering questions, passing business
[21:26] Speaker 2: cards around. And I see two guys sort of lingering
[21:29] Speaker 2: at the sort of at the side. And I should
[21:33] Speaker 2: also say that at a conference like this, it is
[21:37] Speaker 2: very Patagonia laden, you know, sweater, Patagonia vests and the
[21:42] Speaker 2: uniform of the day. But these guys are not dressed
[21:46] Speaker 2: like that. And so they approach and I will tell
[21:51] Speaker 2: you that they definitely did not fit into the hedge
[21:54] Speaker 2: fund crowd. I'm wondering what what is? What are the
[21:58] Speaker 2: Hell's Angels interested in? Because they looked like one percenters
[22:02] Speaker 2: from an MC, But the questions they asked were phenomenal.
[22:10] Speaker 2: They were very aware of data, they were very aware
[22:14] Speaker 2: of ad tech. But the question that they really had was,
[22:19] Speaker 2: we're interested in every the use cases that you presented
[22:22] Speaker 2: about the United States. Can you do this overseas well? Sure,
[22:27] Speaker 2: of course we can do We're advertising in Europe and
[22:30] Speaker 2: Middle East, of course, how about sort of the developing world?
[22:36] Speaker 2: What do you mean? And they sort of paused, got permission,
[22:43] Speaker 2: you know, to reveal some countries, and they said, could
[22:48] Speaker 2: you do this in Syria, Libya or Yemen? And it
[22:52] Speaker 2: took me back and I at that point I realized
[22:55] Speaker 2: that these are not These are not hedge fund These
[22:57] Speaker 2: are not hedgies from Stanford, Connecticut.
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[26:14] Speaker 2: That began this long relationship with Jaysock because they were
[26:19] Speaker 2: they were reference from the Joint Intelligence Brigade, the one
[26:23] Speaker 2: guy John was true true Commander or something like that,
[26:29] Speaker 2: and they were in the business. They were there scouting
[26:33] Speaker 2: for new data sets that would give them fidelity into
[26:36] Speaker 2: these war zones for pick your reason, uh, for targeting?
[26:42] Speaker 2: Can we better understand what is going on in this
[26:47] Speaker 2: you know this this this polygon area. Do we can
[26:52] Speaker 2: we define how many women children? Who is interacting with
[26:56] Speaker 2: this location? And that kicked off a proof of concept
[27:02] Speaker 2: which you mentioned called locomotive, which was the combination of
[27:06] Speaker 2: location and motive. I came up with that because I
[27:13] Speaker 2: at the time had a ten year old daughter, and
[27:16] Speaker 2: I said, I need something. I need a name to
[27:18] Speaker 2: call this thing. And I can't keep saying location motive
[27:22] Speaker 2: because that's just hard to say. So come up with something.
[27:29] Speaker 2: And this was pre chat GPT days and like a
[27:33] Speaker 2: minute later, she's like, called locomotive.
[27:34] Speaker 3: She came up with that. That's awesome.
[27:36] Speaker 2: Yeah. So and so I talk about innovation because this
[27:42] Speaker 2: is really sort of a two tier story because we
[27:46] Speaker 2: were innovating, but it wasn't an innovation initiative. It was
[27:53] Speaker 2: we have hard targets and we need fidelity. Let's get
[27:58] Speaker 2: after this. And so it wasn't something where we were
[28:04] Speaker 2: just out of the gate, you know all you know,
[28:08] Speaker 2: fireworks and bells and whistles. There were some struggles. There
[28:12] Speaker 2: was a lot of entrenched sort of attitudes, like from
[28:17] Speaker 2: siginners who believe that the only way to get this
[28:21] Speaker 2: kind of data was to you know, intercept it, which
[28:26] Speaker 2: you know, you can fly around, you can drive around,
[28:28] Speaker 2: you can intercept a lot of stuff trying to you know,
[28:31] Speaker 2: invoking yourself as a cell tower and if you own
[28:33] Speaker 2: the airspace, yeah, you can do that at scale. And
[28:37] Speaker 2: I had to repeatedly say, as I was being called
[28:40] Speaker 2: a snake oil salesman and a charlatan, like to my face,
[28:44] Speaker 2: I would have to say, I didn't hack, engineer, intercept
[28:48] Speaker 2: or steal this data. I bought it. And that took
[28:51] Speaker 2: a long time for the community to get their head
[28:54] Speaker 2: around like, okay, so that's not intelligence. You bought it,
[28:58] Speaker 2: Like we need to go and spy on people and
[28:59] Speaker 2: we need the intercept in order for it to be
[29:02] Speaker 2: an end exactly.
[29:03] Speaker 3: Yeah, I think they struggled with osin for quite a while.
[29:08] Speaker 3: But for that reason, they're like, well it's not classified,
[29:11] Speaker 3: what is it?
[29:11] Speaker 2: What do we do? Yeah, same same, same deal. And
[29:15] Speaker 2: this is you know, where they get wrapped around the
[29:18] Speaker 2: actle trying to define what some of these things are.
[29:20] Speaker 3: Who cares. It's data that's useful. It's data that's useful to.
[29:24] Speaker 2: The mission, So figure out where it fits now. I
[29:29] Speaker 2: will say that in some of these like there was
[29:38] Speaker 2: we were on the clock. You're at Jaysock, so.
[29:41] Speaker 3: You're brought in as a contract, show us that you
[29:44] Speaker 3: can make this work in three months or something. I was, yeah,
[29:47] Speaker 3: I had a little longer than three months, but you
[29:50] Speaker 3: know how it is at Jaysuck, like you've got one shot,
[29:53] Speaker 3: you know, like and they are unforgiving and they are
[29:56] Speaker 3: hard customer, right and and so you know, this wasn't
[30:02] Speaker 3: something where it was like I can show you where
[30:04] Speaker 3: all your hvts are tomorrow.
[30:07] Speaker 2: It doesn't work that way. But that was sort of
[30:10] Speaker 2: the expectation, like, oh, this is this is magic. So
[30:16] Speaker 2: trying to build a use case that they could they
[30:18] Speaker 2: could understand, like you need to understand that we're not
[30:21] Speaker 2: really going after the HVT we're going after the area's
[30:25] Speaker 2: his centers of gravity to look and better understand what's
[30:28] Speaker 2: going on, right, I needed a use case to show
[30:32] Speaker 2: them that. So one night, as I'm on the clock
[30:39] Speaker 2: and like I don't want to blow this, I draw
[30:44] Speaker 2: geo fence around an area on Fort Bragg that is
[30:49] Speaker 2: not Jaysack, not Fort Bragg, large a particular location at
[30:55] Speaker 2: Fort Bragg which is not you know, it's anybody. Every
[31:00] Speaker 2: he knows where that compound is. And when you look
[31:04] Speaker 2: down on it and you see all the red roofs,
[31:06] Speaker 2: you know what you're looking at. So I geo fenced
[31:10] Speaker 2: that area. I should also say that I'm doing all
[31:14] Speaker 2: of this in a highly secure area in between my
[31:21] Speaker 2: master bedroom and my daughter's bedroom in my home office.
[31:27] Speaker 2: Draw the geofence around the Delta compound. Hit play to
[31:31] Speaker 2: see where the devices go, where they were before, where
[31:35] Speaker 2: they were after, and in Syria. I get a cluster
[31:41] Speaker 2: of devices.
[31:42] Speaker 3: That correlate with what you were seeing at Fort.
[31:45] Speaker 2: Bragg because they were there in Syria at this facility.
[31:49] Speaker 2: In Syria, they were at Fort Bragg. They have consistent
[31:54] Speaker 2: dwell time between these two places. And I pulled it
[31:59] Speaker 2: back a little further and was able to track the
[32:02] Speaker 2: devices that started at Fort Bragg is my seed location.
[32:06] Speaker 2: Now they're in this place in Syria making cement, and
[32:13] Speaker 2: I bring them. I track these devices to residences in
[32:18] Speaker 2: a town called Southern Pines, North Carolina. Now, if you
[32:22] Speaker 2: are part of the Fort Bragg community, you know that
[32:25] Speaker 2: Southern Pines is a bedroom community where if you can
[32:28] Speaker 2: afford to live there because you make a little extra money.
[32:31] Speaker 3: I'm surprised you just put a geofence around O'Donnell's and
[32:36] Speaker 3: that that.
[32:38] Speaker 2: Would have been too easy. And I'm bringing up, I'm
[32:42] Speaker 2: showing I'm coming up with the homes of operators who
[32:46] Speaker 2: are at this at at at what we call it
[32:50] Speaker 2: LCF Lafarge Cement Factory, And I'm like, this is interesting.
[32:57] Speaker 2: I had no a priori knowledge. I wasn't looking.
[32:59] Speaker 3: Yeah, you weren't read on to what they were doing
[33:00] Speaker 3: over there.
[33:01] Speaker 2: I wasn't. I did not. I was not looking for
[33:04] Speaker 2: French companies, of French conglomerates cement facility in Syria, nor
[33:07] Speaker 2: was I even aware that Southern Pines had any connection
[33:13] Speaker 2: to Delta. I kind of package it up. I don't
[33:19] Speaker 2: really know what I have here. Drive down to Brag,
[33:26] Speaker 2: I think I think you should see something. I don't
[33:28] Speaker 2: know what it is, and I've got my power points
[33:31] Speaker 2: and my handouts, and it's one of those moments where
[33:37] Speaker 2: if I had known, it's the kind of thing where
[33:40] Speaker 2: you say, do I have your fucking attention now? Because
[33:44] Speaker 2: this was not an overt forward operating base, and the
[33:50] Speaker 2: residences and who they belonged to, they were like I
[33:54] Speaker 2: showed pictures and people were like, that's Sergeant Major's house. Yeah,
[33:58] Speaker 2: that's you know, that's.
[34:01] Speaker 3: I imagine this brief went over like a lead balloon.
[34:04] Speaker 2: That was like room gets cleared. You know. My badge
[34:11] Speaker 2: went from you know, yellow to black or something. You know,
[34:15] Speaker 2: it just it everything got a little bit more intense
[34:18] Speaker 2: at that point, and I got an audience with CG
[34:21] Speaker 2: and sort of explained to him how I did it,
[34:24] Speaker 2: what I was doing. Sigators weren't as as hostile towards
[34:30] Speaker 2: me from that point forward, But that was sort of
[34:33] Speaker 2: the moment when, like the next meeting that I did
[34:36] Speaker 2: briefing a much larger group, my contact down there introduces
[34:44] Speaker 2: me as meeting. He's like, we've got the subject matter
[34:46] Speaker 2: expert in this stuff, and I'm looking around, like who
[34:50] Speaker 2: is there somebody else and it was like, oh, that's me.
[34:56] Speaker 2: And so, over the course of ten years, got involved
[35:00] Speaker 2: with signature management, identity management, the various working groups, whether
[35:05] Speaker 2: it's up North, down South, at the beach in Tampa,
[35:09] Speaker 2: all over the place, trying to sort of corral this
[35:14] Speaker 2: signature management problem, this ubiquitous technical surveillance problem that you've
[35:19] Speaker 2: had really great guests on before talking about it, and
[35:25] Speaker 2: you know, the community sort of approaches it from the
[35:27] Speaker 2: perspective of, well, we just need to educate everybody about
[35:31] Speaker 2: this risk and really overload them with ad tech stuff
[35:36] Speaker 2: and really get them to understand what's going on. But
[35:40] Speaker 2: we only have You're an operator, you only have so
[35:42] Speaker 2: many cognitive cycles to process things. It's like, tell me
[35:47] Speaker 2: what I need to know, tell me how we defeat this.
[35:52] Speaker 2: And for the last ten years I've been explaining this
[35:55] Speaker 2: isn't something you defeat. You are up against. Before we
[35:59] Speaker 2: even talk of an adversary. You're up against an eight
[36:03] Speaker 2: trillion dollar duopoly Google and Apple. They support a nearly
[36:10] Speaker 2: trillion dollar advertising ecosystem. They are both unified in a
[36:15] Speaker 2: mission to predict behavior of humans at planetary scale. So
[36:22] Speaker 2: right out of the gate, you are trying to defeat
[36:25] Speaker 2: nearly ten trillion dollars of market cap with your mission
[36:29] Speaker 2: center and three dudes who learned about ad tech three
[36:32] Speaker 2: days ago. Yes, so right out of the gate deck
[36:37] Speaker 2: is stacked. This is not something you defeat. This is
[36:39] Speaker 2: something that you figure out how to operate within. And yes, tradecraft, Yes,
[36:46] Speaker 2: the things we do out in the field we cannot
[36:48] Speaker 2: hide inside the embassy cannot hide because of UTS. We
[36:52] Speaker 2: have to figure out where are the seams where we
[36:55] Speaker 2: can operate, where are the gaps that we can operate?
[36:59] Speaker 2: And I think we're at a point now where the
[37:02] Speaker 2: community has stopped referring to it as referring to UTS
[37:08] Speaker 2: as this existential threat, which, if you think about words,
[37:12] Speaker 2: existential means unless you solve this, your reason for existing
[37:16] Speaker 2: is no longer done. You're done. So I wouldn't describe
[37:20] Speaker 2: it as an existential threat. I would describe it as
[37:24] Speaker 2: an operating condition that we need to figure out. And
[37:28] Speaker 2: there are there are fewer mitigations that one can apply.
[37:34] Speaker 2: Is more about interventions, And the number one question that
[37:38] Speaker 2: I get from the operational community is how do I
[37:43] Speaker 2: get myself out of commercial data? And if we think
[37:47] Speaker 2: about it from a first principles perspective. All of this
[37:50] Speaker 2: risk starts with the devices we carry and all of
[37:55] Speaker 2: the data that they emit that tell us story about
[38:00] Speaker 2: who we are. And particularly for the operational community, it's
[38:06] Speaker 2: not so much what you're exposing when you're on the
[38:10] Speaker 2: X or doing an ACT, because you know, those are
[38:14] Speaker 2: different scenarios. It's everything that happens when you're home, when
[38:19] Speaker 2: you're just you know, like you're working your CIA and
[38:23] Speaker 2: you're working, you're working headquarters, but you're running around DC,
[38:29] Speaker 2: going to sites, doing stuff, meeting with people. If I'm
[38:33] Speaker 2: an adversary and I'm interested in that cohort, I'm very
[38:38] Speaker 2: interested in what you're doing when you're not on the
[38:41] Speaker 2: X or engaged in an operational act. All of that
[38:45] Speaker 2: is very useful information. And when we think about UTS,
[38:53] Speaker 2: the shift, and I hate to be somebody that's like
[38:56] Speaker 2: AI is going to change the world, but the shift
[38:58] Speaker 2: that is underway is I mean, firstly, you know UTS, Yeah,
[39:04] Speaker 2: a lot of cameras and hardware and infrastructure all that stuff,
[39:10] Speaker 2: But I'm not convinced that our primary adversary has developed
[39:16] Speaker 2: an integration scheme where all of this is manifesting itself
[39:19] Speaker 2: in a minority report like environment, they collect a lot
[39:23] Speaker 2: of data. They being the CCP is who I'm talking right.
[39:26] Speaker 3: But do they have like an opsen where they're correlating.
[39:29] Speaker 2: All of this and and in there If you think
[39:31] Speaker 2: about them culturally, they believe that I'm collecting a lot.
[39:38] Speaker 2: That means I have I have a lot of intelligence
[39:41] Speaker 2: and they're collecting a bunch of raw data. Yeah, you know,
[39:46] Speaker 2: and what are they doing with it? I'm not convinced
[39:49] Speaker 2: that they have you know, developed this this prescientopticon, but
[39:55] Speaker 2: they are collecting. But what AI will do? And just
[39:59] Speaker 2: think about your own use of some of these platforms.
[40:03] Speaker 2: If you think about all of the data that is
[40:07] Speaker 2: on your device and you think about it from the
[40:09] Speaker 2: perspective of an operator case officer. The population I'm going
[40:16] Speaker 2: to use this example because this is possible. The population
[40:22] Speaker 2: in the United States of people who power down their
[40:25] Speaker 2: phone three or four times a week, twice a week,
[40:29] Speaker 2: who power down their phone at all, is very very small.
[40:35] Speaker 2: You leave your phone on at night, you're not powering
[40:37] Speaker 2: it down during the day. The way in which apps
[40:48] Speaker 2: are collecting data on your device. You've install an app
[40:53] Speaker 2: and you've basically given it permission to interrogate the entire device.
[40:57] Speaker 2: Do you know Apple the privacy device. Apple gives its
[41:01] Speaker 2: consumers two selectors two minimum to suppress data in its
[41:07] Speaker 2: privacy in its privacy settings, the ad ID you can
[41:13] Speaker 2: click that off, and location data. Those are the two
[41:16] Speaker 2: selectors that Apple permits its consumers to invoke privacy. So
[41:24] Speaker 2: you have an app on your phone. Maybe it's not
[41:26] Speaker 2: collecting your ad ID because you're not allowing that, and
[41:29] Speaker 2: maybe it can't get your GPS because you've turned that off.
[41:33] Speaker 2: So it's going to look at all of the other
[41:35] Speaker 2: telemetry that your device is collecting. It's going to pull it,
[41:44] Speaker 2: prepare it to xfill off your device and when it
[41:48] Speaker 2: does that, and that's a very normal behavior between an app.
[41:51] Speaker 2: It needs to exchange data for functionality, but it's also
[41:55] Speaker 2: looking at all sorts of other extraneous components that have
[41:59] Speaker 2: nothing to do with functionality, and it's pulling it. It
[42:04] Speaker 2: encrypts it before it transmits.
[42:08] Speaker 3: So it uses my phone as an encryption device.
[42:12] Speaker 2: And you have no you have no awareness of what
[42:15] Speaker 2: it's collected, what it's done, what it's and why. So
[42:20] Speaker 2: if you are somebody in the community and you're powering
[42:22] Speaker 2: down your phone, two or three times a week, and
[42:25] Speaker 2: that is anomaloust to the rest of the working population globally,
[42:31] Speaker 2: let alone Washington, DC. But in Washington, d C. If
[42:34] Speaker 2: I'm interested because I have awareness that there's policy that
[42:41] Speaker 2: you can get off the Internet that says, on your
[42:43] Speaker 2: way one mile away from a black site or whatever
[42:46] Speaker 2: you want to call it, power down your phone, that
[42:49] Speaker 2: is that is doctrine. If I'm interested in everybody in
[42:55] Speaker 2: the DC area that does that two or three times
[42:56] Speaker 2: a week, I now have everyone five hundred targets, three
[42:59] Speaker 2: hundred targe fifty targets, and that instead of looking at
[43:04] Speaker 2: the population of DC and trying to figure out who's
[43:07] Speaker 2: in the business, now I have the probability of who's
[43:12] Speaker 2: in the business.
[43:13] Speaker 3: I mean they deal with it overseas too, like of
[43:15] Speaker 3: the bad guys catch you, you know, putting your phone
[43:18] Speaker 3: in a faraday bag or something like who the fuck
[43:20] Speaker 3: does that? Yeah, you know, a normal tourist isn't behaving like.
[43:23] Speaker 2: That, right, So this is something that's interesting. It's so
[43:32] Speaker 2: and this is just on the commercial side. So company
[43:36] Speaker 2: will let's let's just let's use real scenario here. You
[43:41] Speaker 2: you travel overseas, you're traveling with a special phone or
[43:46] Speaker 2: a phone that's your travel phone. So there's nothing. Let's
[43:51] Speaker 2: just assume there is nothing about you that anybody could
[43:53] Speaker 2: glean from your phone. And it's a normal phone. It's
[43:55] Speaker 2: not an op phone, it's it's a normal phone, but
[43:57] Speaker 2: it's your travel phone, your work. So check into your
[44:00] Speaker 2: hotel and the hotel knows nothing about you. You're not
[44:06] Speaker 2: part of the rewards program. What the hotel or the
[44:11] Speaker 2: adversary will do is sort of a cold start. What
[44:14] Speaker 2: do cohorts that have come in from the States who
[44:18] Speaker 2: stay at this type of hotel, what do we expect
[44:21] Speaker 2: them to do when they are in our country. Let's
[44:25] Speaker 2: model that and be able to do that while they're
[44:29] Speaker 2: here looking for these anomalous behaviors. So if you think about,
[44:34] Speaker 2: all right, I'm gonna I'm going to try to defeat uts,
[44:37] Speaker 2: I'm going to try to defeat the machine with a
[44:39] Speaker 2: travel phone.
[44:40] Speaker 3: Or.
[44:42] Speaker 2: They're looking at it from that perspective and they're ahead
[44:46] Speaker 2: of you. So how do you how do you function?
[44:50] Speaker 2: How do you do how do you do your job
[44:53] Speaker 2: without feeling like somebody is constantly watching you? Because they are.
[44:58] Speaker 2: That is part of the to accept that observation is ambient.
[45:05] Speaker 2: You're gonna be observed. You are not gonna go black.
[45:08] Speaker 2: You can you can do an SDR for twelve hours.
[45:12] Speaker 2: They're not, you know, they're they're just going to replay
[45:14] Speaker 2: the tape and they're gonna let AI look at show
[45:19] Speaker 2: me everybody who went, you know, walking around for eight
[45:21] Speaker 2: hours and you know, did these types of stops? Show
[45:26] Speaker 2: me all of those devices. That's the power of AI
[45:29] Speaker 2: from an inference capability, and that all comes from the
[45:34] Speaker 2: devices we are caring. So it doesn't have to be
[45:36] Speaker 2: an overt you know, uh signature. It can be a
[45:41] Speaker 2: very non obvious, very slight, subtle permutation in that data
[45:45] Speaker 2: that is that exceeds the baseline of expectation, and that,
[45:49] Speaker 2: to me is that's what UTS is going to look like,
[45:55] Speaker 2: because that's what the commercial advertising world is doing. So
[45:58] Speaker 2: the primitives are already available now, we just need to
[46:02] Speaker 2: sort of change the names to make it.
[46:04] Speaker 3: So if you're trying to stay off the grid, so
[46:06] Speaker 3: to speak, I mean, how do you work with this
[46:09] Speaker 3: technology or all flow in that technology while not pinging
[46:13] Speaker 3: up on someone's radar?
[46:16] Speaker 2: So a couple different ways of doing that. So if
[46:18] Speaker 2: we think about it from a first principle's perspective, the
[46:21] Speaker 2: number one thing that we need to figure out if
[46:23] Speaker 2: commercial data, if telemetry is the problem, we need to
[46:27] Speaker 2: figure out how to limit the amount of telemetry that
[46:30] Speaker 2: we are making available by virtue of the phones we carry.
[46:33] Speaker 2: Like the fact though, let's cut out all the bullshit
[46:36] Speaker 2: about persona management and signature management and all that. Let's
[46:40] Speaker 2: figure out how to reduce the amount of data that
[46:44] Speaker 2: we are willingly give. Right, And that doesn't that's not
[46:48] Speaker 2: something that just an operator or an IO should be.
[46:52] Speaker 2: That is like a human dignity issue, right, And this
[46:57] Speaker 2: capability is something that whether you're you know, in the
[47:02] Speaker 2: community or not, this is this is privacy being able
[47:08] Speaker 2: to carry a phone that works, functions and does all
[47:11] Speaker 2: of the great things that phones do without it being
[47:14] Speaker 2: this constant.
[47:16] Speaker 3: Spy device SPI divice.
[47:18] Speaker 2: So that's the first thing that we need to tackle
[47:22] Speaker 2: from a posture of what do we accept as humans
[47:27] Speaker 2: about what we're willing to share. And you want to
[47:32] Speaker 2: sort of tune up my adrenaline, tell me, well, I
[47:37] Speaker 2: have nothing to hide, so I don't care. Okay, that
[47:41] Speaker 2: assumes you know who's looking. Ask Lindsay Graham whether Lindsay
[47:47] Speaker 2: I don't know whether you all are. I'm going to
[47:50] Speaker 2: attack him a little bit here because Lindsay Graham was
[47:54] Speaker 2: telling us all back in the early days of the
[47:57] Speaker 2: Patriot Act that if you have nothing to hide, you
[48:00] Speaker 2: have nothing to worry about. You think he's got something
[48:02] Speaker 2: to worry about until Arctic Frost and the FBI decided
[48:07] Speaker 2: to pull his CDRs and he decided, well, that's bullshit.
[48:13] Speaker 2: I'm going to sue you five hundred thousand dollars per incident.
[48:16] Speaker 2: Mister I have nothing to hide. You shouldn't worry about
[48:19] Speaker 2: the government, the NSA collecting your data, blah blah blah. Okay,
[48:26] Speaker 2: you know, not for me, but for thee Yeah. And
[48:30] Speaker 2: this just is this just happened a couple months ago
[48:33] Speaker 2: when he was told cash Pattel disclosed that I think
[48:39] Speaker 2: it was eight senators were wrapped up in the Arctic
[48:41] Speaker 2: Frost poll, and uh, you know, the indignation and the
[48:46] Speaker 2: outrage was palpable. And it's different like there was a
[48:50] Speaker 2: warrant to go pull their data. But at the same time,
[48:53] Speaker 2: mister senator, if you've got nothing to hide, what do
[48:55] Speaker 2: you care? Maybe you have something to hide.
[48:58] Speaker 3: Yeah, a little cautious about politicians telling us things like that.
[49:03] Speaker 2: It's just it's it's the kind of thing where we
[49:08] Speaker 2: talk about this the risk of data and adversaries, But
[49:14] Speaker 2: who's the adversary is it? Is it an advertiser? Who
[49:20] Speaker 2: do I want an advertiser to have this intimate knowledge
[49:23] Speaker 2: of who I am and what I'm doing? What does that?
[49:27] Speaker 2: How does that benefit me? And the more, you know,
[49:33] Speaker 2: the more we allow convenience, these frictionless sort of technology
[49:40] Speaker 2: interfaces to make it really easy for us. Every every
[49:45] Speaker 2: point where friction has been alleviated is a point where
[49:49] Speaker 2: your data now is available because we've we've created, we've
[49:54] Speaker 2: we've eliminated those fire breaks.
[49:56] Speaker 3: You know, I, as you're talking, I just got me thinking.
[49:59] Speaker 3: I'm I mean, when I think of ubiquitous surveillance and
[50:03] Speaker 3: the Panopticon and all this sort of thing, I think
[50:07] Speaker 3: big countries United States, China, Russia. But as you point out,
[50:10] Speaker 3: you bought this data on the commercial market. That means
[50:14] Speaker 3: that countries like Vietnam, Rwanda could be operationalizing this data
[50:21] Speaker 3: against us, potentially.
[50:22] Speaker 2: One because there's there are no guard rails, there's not
[50:27] Speaker 2: a you don't need to, you know, send a note.
[50:30] Speaker 3: To the you got something to hide.
[50:32] Speaker 2: Mic. Yeah, there's no there are no guardrails. Anybody can
[50:36] Speaker 2: do it. Uh, it's gotten a little tighter. And you know,
[50:39] Speaker 2: companies have had some headline exposure by selling data to
[50:43] Speaker 2: you know, bail bondsmen and the private advice recently that
[50:47] Speaker 2: kind of Yep. Absolutely, And this is this is a
[50:51] Speaker 2: this is the hard question because we of course want
[50:57] Speaker 2: our law enforcement to have every available tool at their
[51:01] Speaker 2: disposal to go after criminals, bad guys. That has been
[51:07] Speaker 2: over that's being overseen by a judge, and it is lawful.
[51:14] Speaker 2: But when it becomes too easy to be able to
[51:18] Speaker 2: look deeply into a potential suspects life, we've got a
[51:26] Speaker 2: slippery slope, right. And and I've worked with one of
[51:31] Speaker 2: my one of the early customers advisor was the FBI.
[51:37] Speaker 2: Another special agent, street agent, not a bureaucrat, street agent,
[51:42] Speaker 2: the kind of guy that you want when you think
[51:44] Speaker 2: of an FBI agent. This is what you know, six'
[51:47] Speaker 2: five marine can recite The. Constitution you, Know uh came
[51:54] Speaker 2: up in THE fb as father was an. Agent but
[51:56] Speaker 2: you know that's what you you, know it's how we
[51:59] Speaker 2: developed in our these. Institutions when that faith is, broken
[52:05] Speaker 2: then it becomes difficult for me to say we should you,
[52:09] Speaker 2: know this should be a no brainer that they have
[52:12] Speaker 2: all of these tools because we, KNOW i know that
[52:17] Speaker 2: there is abuse and corner, cutting, right and that is
[52:21] Speaker 2: a problem for.
[52:22] Speaker 3: Me, YEAH i can definitely see the double edged. Sword,
[52:25] Speaker 3: like on one, hand you want them to have all
[52:27] Speaker 3: the tools to like Catch internet predators and stuff like.
[52:30] Speaker 2: That we can all agree on, that, Yeah, yeah.
[52:33] Speaker 3: But then there's you, know when you're taking those shortcuts
[52:36] Speaker 3: and you're not getting a judicially signed, warrant it becomes an.
[52:40] Speaker 2: Issue so if you think about it this, way if
[52:43] Speaker 2: you were in THE dc area Around january, sixth twenty
[52:48] Speaker 2: twenty there with your, family you weren't you weren't near The,
[52:52] Speaker 2: capitol but you were there with your family and you
[52:54] Speaker 2: bought some souvenirs or you used a credit card to
[52:56] Speaker 2: get into The, smithsonian chances are THE fbi had to
[53:00] Speaker 2: look at. You, yeah they eliminated, you probably, quickly but
[53:08] Speaker 2: they were looking at. You and that data was provided
[53:11] Speaker 2: willfully by various. Banks did you know did you authorize?
[53:16] Speaker 2: It and that gets into the who owns the? Data
[53:18] Speaker 2: it's not really your. Data credit card data isn't. Yours
[53:22] Speaker 2: your cell phone data is not.
[53:23] Speaker 3: Yours so let's let's talk a little bit about how
[53:28] Speaker 3: the program evolved from a locomotive, advisory what Is? Visor
[53:31] Speaker 3: what was the next?
[53:32] Speaker 2: Incarnation, Yep so locomotive was think about locomotive as a
[53:35] Speaker 2: proof of concept where it was very, limited and that's
[53:37] Speaker 2: WHERE i was trying to just demonstrate how this could
[53:41] Speaker 2: work as a as a. Capability proved that and it
[53:50] Speaker 2: we upgraded it to something Called Visor Virtual Intelligence surveillance And.
[53:54] Speaker 2: Reconnaissance kind of a stick in the face to the
[53:58] Speaker 2: siginers who didn't believe that this was even. Possible so
[54:03] Speaker 2: we were DOING isr type. Work, VIRTUALLY i was buying
[54:08] Speaker 2: the location, data and if you think about mobile location
[54:12] Speaker 2: data at the, time your device was probably giving an
[54:17] Speaker 2: event a location event once every twelve. Seconds so not
[54:24] Speaker 2: quite as persistent as A ttl device stuck on the
[54:28] Speaker 2: back of a car in terms of like seeing the,
[54:31] Speaker 2: routes but pretty close in terms of being able to
[54:35] Speaker 2: see how people were moving. About and so the program
[54:42] Speaker 2: was designed to be an interagency. Program jaysonk was the primary,
[54:47] Speaker 2: sponsor but it became an interagency program where we were
[54:50] Speaker 2: selling this data. Set we were buying the data, sets
[54:55] Speaker 2: and the license for that data gave me rights to
[55:01] Speaker 2: make it available to the ENTIRE us, government SO i
[55:05] Speaker 2: didn't have to have one agency buying. It it was
[55:08] Speaker 2: like one. Purchase it was very very efficient and a
[55:12] Speaker 2: great deal for the. Taxpayer and we just we created
[55:17] Speaker 2: a basically a government cloud environment where data would come
[55:23] Speaker 2: in from our, suppliers we would move it over to
[55:27] Speaker 2: a to a classified cloud, environment and we had at
[55:35] Speaker 2: the full we had seven different agencies. Participating they had
[55:39] Speaker 2: the fund and they had to. Pay but if you
[55:41] Speaker 2: think like here's the, budget everybody had to pitch. In it,
[55:46] Speaker 2: was you, know kind of an interagency working. Group but
[55:51] Speaker 2: it was designed to be efficient so that we weren't
[55:55] Speaker 2: buying the same AD id seventy different, times which is
[55:59] Speaker 2: what how we're doing it.
[56:01] Speaker 3: Now AND i imagine these agencies are all using this
[56:05] Speaker 3: ad tech data that you're purchasing in different ways to
[56:08] Speaker 3: accomplish different things absolutely well sort of like the difference
[56:11] Speaker 3: between how like THE fbi VERSUS cia VERSUS jaysck will
[56:15] Speaker 3: use these data.
[56:16] Speaker 2: Sets so my first case THAT i worked for The
[56:19] Speaker 2: bureau Was Stephen, paddock The vegas. Shooter there was questions
[56:27] Speaker 2: about possible transnational terrorism because his wife Was. FILIPINO i
[56:32] Speaker 2: remember this traveled to The, philippines and so we did
[56:37] Speaker 2: a work up On Steven.
[56:38] Speaker 3: Paddock he's very like, opaque very kind of like mysterials.
[56:42] Speaker 2: TAKE i know that there are a lot of, LIKE
[56:47] Speaker 2: i don't know what his. MOTIVE i don't know. THAT
[56:51] Speaker 2: i don't think anybody really. Does, YEAH i don't believe
[56:54] Speaker 2: that there was a conspiracy because there Were saudi's in the,
[56:57] Speaker 2: hotel because there are lots Of south In vegas all the. Time,
[57:01] Speaker 2: yeah BUT i don't mean to stir up your, Listeners.
[57:05] Speaker 3: No, NO i Mean i'm interested in what the.
[57:07] Speaker 2: Results So Stephen, Paddock Stephen paddock had two residences In,
[57:12] Speaker 2: vegas to two, properties so we were looking at. Those
[57:18] Speaker 2: saw no unusual co, location co. Presence we would see
[57:23] Speaker 2: like the ups delivery, guy The FedEx. Guy he had a.
[57:28] Speaker 2: Landscape we had one device that was showing up at both.
[57:32] Speaker 2: Properties it was his. Landscape it was his the guy
[57:36] Speaker 2: that cut his. Grass but we looked at him hard
[57:40] Speaker 2: because that was the only we're seeing. This he lives
[57:44] Speaker 2: in a kind of a you, know potential high crime.
[57:49] Speaker 2: Area what's this all? About it was the guy that
[57:51] Speaker 2: cuts his. Grass this was very, early and so you
[57:58] Speaker 2: have bureau analysts Like i'm sort of over their shoulder
[58:01] Speaker 2: looking at this, stuff and all of a, sudden somebody's,
[58:06] Speaker 2: like holy. Shit there was a device that they were
[58:10] Speaker 2: looking at that had also spent time At Redstone personal
[58:16] Speaker 2: where they where you learn how to make a bomb or.
[58:20] Speaker 3: Or and it was connected To paddock in some.
[58:23] Speaker 2: CAPACITY i WAS i was, like this is this is
[58:27] Speaker 2: if this is what it, Is wait a, second let's
[58:31] Speaker 2: have a. Look look at the, date look at the.
[58:34] Speaker 2: Time it was your OWN eod. Guy because now that
[58:40] Speaker 2: same device like he's in he was In, Texas, like
[58:45] Speaker 2: is there anything going on In? Texas, yeah there's a letter,
[58:48] Speaker 2: Bomber like that's your. Guy so you have to watch
[58:52] Speaker 2: what you're doing because this right kind of stuff like
[58:55] Speaker 2: you're seeing it you want to find, right just take a,
[59:00] Speaker 2: breath and this is not there is no there's no
[59:04] Speaker 2: connection here with somebody that's got intimate explosive. Experience this
[59:09] Speaker 2: is your own, technician your OWN eod guy that probably
[59:11] Speaker 2: didn't cleared the house before the rest of the forensics
[59:15] Speaker 2: team came. In so those are the types of things
[59:20] Speaker 2: from a law enforcement, perspective ad tech is not the
[59:26] Speaker 2: Best it's not the best use of that data because
[59:31] Speaker 2: law enforcement will come in and they will, say we
[59:34] Speaker 2: have an incident that occurred on this date at this.
[59:37] Speaker 2: Time show me everything that was there when that. Happened
[59:42] Speaker 2: and that requires an app to be, functioning to be,
[59:47] Speaker 2: broadcasting to be pinging. Location it's a very treacherous terrain
[59:54] Speaker 2: to try to put a device at a specific location
[59:59] Speaker 2: at a specific. Time unlike when you're doing tower, dumps
[1:00:02] Speaker 2: you're getting like, arrange. Right this is this is why
[1:00:08] Speaker 2: it's not the best use case for incident resolution and.
[1:00:13] Speaker 2: Investigation if you're looking at show, Me i've done a
[1:00:17] Speaker 2: lot of LIKE ms thirteen type. Work show me that
[1:00:20] Speaker 2: type of cohort where they, go what are their patterns of?
[1:00:24] Speaker 2: Life no different than if you're looking for.
[1:00:26] Speaker 3: It's more of a big data it.
[1:00:28] Speaker 2: Is it is take a big look at the, cohort
[1:00:31] Speaker 2: where they, live what are their centers of, gravity what
[1:00:34] Speaker 2: don't we know about where they're going on some kind
[1:00:38] Speaker 2: of regular. Basis it's excellent for that type of for
[1:00:41] Speaker 2: that type of, work but to try to go and
[1:00:44] Speaker 2: like locate a device at a, centroid you, know very
[1:00:51] Speaker 2: difficult to do and agencies have tried to do, it
[1:00:57] Speaker 2: and it's they've sort of come up, like, well it
[1:00:59] Speaker 2: doesn't work, now it's not the right application for that
[1:01:02] Speaker 2: type of. Stuff and then but on the on the intelligence,
[1:01:10] Speaker 2: side a lot of a lot of focus on our
[1:01:13] Speaker 2: own community, opsec signature, management help us understand what our risks,
[1:01:19] Speaker 2: are how do we Improve and then in the in
[1:01:23] Speaker 2: THE isis, days a lot of targeting there on some
[1:01:28] Speaker 2: pretty high.
[1:01:29] Speaker 3: Value, yeah SO i was going to ask you about. That,
[1:01:31] Speaker 3: look what was the year that locomotive got?
[1:01:34] Speaker 2: Started so this was we're going back twenty, sixteen and
[1:01:37] Speaker 2: it was fully full operational capability was around twenty.
[1:01:41] Speaker 3: Eighteen and SO isis is a thing at this. Moment
[1:01:45] Speaker 3: this is a big priority for The United states. Government
[1:01:48] Speaker 3: AND i remember someone telling me a story about early
[1:01:51] Speaker 3: on in the war when we went and wiped out
[1:01:53] Speaker 3: The chorussan, group like very quickly WITH cia intelligence airstrikes
[1:01:59] Speaker 3: and did. Deal my, understanding that was one of the
[1:02:02] Speaker 3: first times that open source intelligence was really. Used and
[1:02:06] Speaker 3: it was because there was a bunch of younger analysts
[1:02:08] Speaker 3: in these offices that were, like, hey maybe we can
[1:02:11] Speaker 3: do this and this and, that and sure enough it.
[1:02:13] Speaker 2: Worked, yeah that was where they were tagging pictures you,
[1:02:18] Speaker 2: had you.
[1:02:18] Speaker 3: Had they were they were going after those guys On.
[1:02:20] Speaker 3: Facebook yeah, yeah, yeah pretty. Funny, yeah so you get
[1:02:28] Speaker 3: it there twenty, sixteen twenty, eighteen it's really up and
[1:02:31] Speaker 3: running kind of like what are you seeing as far
[1:02:33] Speaker 3: as like the evolution of the program and how are
[1:02:36] Speaker 3: the guys the boots on the ground kind of taken to, it.
[1:02:40] Speaker 2: So adoption or hey can we look at can we
[1:02:43] Speaker 2: get some of that ad tech stuff from from the
[1:02:47] Speaker 2: operator from the unit. Level was got great feedback on
[1:02:52] Speaker 2: that Because i'm giving them the Type i'm giving them
[1:02:55] Speaker 2: like slant. Information i've got women children based upon the
[1:03:00] Speaker 2: apps that they're, using the, times the, devices you, know
[1:03:04] Speaker 2: not giving. NAMES i don't have, names BUT i can
[1:03:07] Speaker 2: tell you before you as you are about to assault
[1:03:12] Speaker 2: this compound where the guy cried like a baby that,
[1:03:18] Speaker 2: COMPOUND i can tell you how many women and children
[1:03:22] Speaker 2: there are before you, begin at the time you're about
[1:03:26] Speaker 2: to you're about to. Engage i'm giving you updated information
[1:03:31] Speaker 2: like you've got anywhere between twelve and, EIGHTEEN i was
[1:03:36] Speaker 2: off by one non combatants in this. COMPOUND i was
[1:03:40] Speaker 2: off by one because one was with him and went
[1:03:44] Speaker 2: down with him as a non. Combatant But i'm giving
[1:03:47] Speaker 2: that type of fidelity at that ground, level which you,
[1:03:53] Speaker 2: know you're an, operator you're you're happy if somebody can
[1:03:56] Speaker 2: tell you if the door fucking opens this way or that,
[1:03:58] Speaker 2: way telling you how many women and children are in
[1:04:03] Speaker 2: this compound you're about to.
[1:04:04] Speaker 3: Assault so AND i imagine when the operators get ground
[1:04:07] Speaker 3: truth and they go and hit the target and, like,
[1:04:10] Speaker 3: wow this was like very accurate actually that they probably
[1:04:13] Speaker 3: took to.
[1:04:13] Speaker 2: IT i was, like, YEAH i mean it's again because
[1:04:19] Speaker 2: you know, this our guys don't want to engage innocent.
[1:04:24] Speaker 2: People they want they want to know if they need
[1:04:29] Speaker 2: to back off a little bit or give some time
[1:04:33] Speaker 2: for them to get, out because that's the type of
[1:04:36] Speaker 2: people they. Are they're not going in looking to just
[1:04:38] Speaker 2: wipe Every so.
[1:04:39] Speaker 3: YEAH i, mean if there's no civilians on, target maybe
[1:04:41] Speaker 3: the answer is a jadam for that.
[1:04:42] Speaker 2: One.
[1:04:43] Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah well.
[1:04:44] Speaker 2: Exactly but this is the type of thing where and
[1:04:48] Speaker 2: this is Something americans should. Know we have a very
[1:04:51] Speaker 2: capable unit that chose to not, pause but just, hey
[1:04:58] Speaker 2: if they're if there is if there is information that
[1:05:01] Speaker 2: helps us configure how we are assaulting, this or that
[1:05:05] Speaker 2: we need to give the term more time on the
[1:05:08] Speaker 2: on the on the the, megaphone come out or you
[1:05:13] Speaker 2: will be. Killed you, know if we need to do,
[1:05:15] Speaker 2: that we're going to do. That we're not just going
[1:05:18] Speaker 2: in guns, blazing because you, know there were like four
[1:05:22] Speaker 2: children under the age of four and they all they
[1:05:25] Speaker 2: all came. Out and as the non combatants are coming,
[1:05:27] Speaker 2: out they are they are giving ground. Truth they are
[1:05:30] Speaker 2: confirming where where he, is what he's, got and who he's.
[1:05:34] Speaker 2: With so those types of things were the you, know
[1:05:39] Speaker 2: and Again i'm doing this in my highly secure operating uh, my, my, my,
[1:05:44] Speaker 2: my forward deployed talk In, Vienna.
[1:05:46] Speaker 3: VIRGINIA i remember around this time hearing some consternation that
[1:05:51] Speaker 3: using ocent, methods Which i'm guessing that was, you that
[1:05:56] Speaker 3: they had identified like hundreds of targets In syria and
[1:06:00] Speaker 3: there's a lot of. Frustration it was not because of the,
[1:06:02] Speaker 3: technology more the policy, side that the guys felt like
[1:06:05] Speaker 3: they're being kind of held back. Targets.
[1:06:07] Speaker 2: Yeah, so and this is this is an excellent point
[1:06:13] Speaker 2: from a policy, perspective because the people who make policy
[1:06:17] Speaker 2: don't have a fucking clue what really they don't they're
[1:06:23] Speaker 2: making like we're working on they're working on they're working.
[1:06:27] Speaker 2: On you, know how do we how do we define
[1:06:30] Speaker 2: commercial data from open source? Data we're beyond. That our
[1:06:35] Speaker 2: adversary is well beyond. That SO i think if we
[1:06:39] Speaker 2: if you just look at the at the way in
[1:06:41] Speaker 2: Which TikTok was, handled we just don't have a political policy.
[1:06:46] Speaker 3: CLASS i, mean the average age of our members Of
[1:06:49] Speaker 3: congress are you, know almost nursing home, ready no fault of.
[1:06:54] Speaker 3: Them everyone, ages but.
[1:06:56] Speaker 2: They're making, uh they're they're doing reels about the you,
[1:07:00] Speaker 2: know disparaging TikTok on. TikTok it just it just doesn't
[1:07:06] Speaker 2: make any. Sense BUT i think that we are in the.
[1:07:11] Speaker 2: Environment the operating environment is highly technical, now so we
[1:07:15] Speaker 2: we need people at the policy level who they don't
[1:07:18] Speaker 2: have to be experts in this understand what they're dealing.
[1:07:22] Speaker 2: With AND i think that.
[1:07:26] Speaker 3: By, comparison the military average age is very, young which,
[1:07:30] Speaker 3: HELPS i think with this sort of.
[1:07:31] Speaker 2: THING i will tell you WHEN i was WHEN i
[1:07:36] Speaker 2: would be, BRIEFING i would look and if my room
[1:07:41] Speaker 2: were mostly n c, OS i was. GOOD i knew
[1:07:45] Speaker 2: that it was going to be a productive Brief when
[1:07:48] Speaker 2: it wasn't n c os and there were there were
[1:07:52] Speaker 2: others in The in the, BRIEF i knew that it
[1:07:56] Speaker 2: was going to be a.
[1:07:57] Speaker 3: Ship show with the sharp on the, map AND.
[1:08:01] Speaker 2: I, mean and it never, failed like you, know AND
[1:08:05] Speaker 2: i was never in the, military SO i don't do
[1:08:07] Speaker 2: all that sir. Shit you. Know so like some fucking
[1:08:11] Speaker 2: captain is going to come in and start sort of
[1:08:15] Speaker 2: pushing a, rent pushing his, rank telling, me you, know
[1:08:19] Speaker 2: how these things should, be And i'm, like that's just that's,
[1:08:23] Speaker 2: firstly not a, thing. Captain, SECONDLY i don't really you,
[1:08:27] Speaker 2: know where are you going with this because you're you're
[1:08:30] Speaker 2: describing fantasy when this is not. Fantasy i've had those. Moments,
[1:08:36] Speaker 2: Yeah army officers don't like to be told they're. Wrong it,
[1:08:42] Speaker 2: was it is A it is the CULTURE i feel
[1:08:46] Speaker 2: for the sergeant. Majors thoughts and. Prayers, yeah, yeah make
[1:08:52] Speaker 2: sure your your helmet is on forward and your your
[1:08:54] Speaker 2: nods are you, know those things that you need to
[1:08:56] Speaker 2: be seeing this way shouldn't be on the face in
[1:08:59] Speaker 2: the back of your. Head BUT i think that as
[1:09:04] Speaker 2: a when we think about, data just as a from
[1:09:08] Speaker 2: a national, perspective we have zero posture in terms of
[1:09:15] Speaker 2: privacy we. Have we have lots of privacy laws on the.
[1:09:18] Speaker 2: Books we have a law that's you know that do
[1:09:21] Speaker 2: not sell my data to bad guy's. Law but if
[1:09:24] Speaker 2: you look at what it protects or what it, controls it's, like,
[1:09:27] Speaker 2: yeah that might have had some teeth ten years, ago
[1:09:30] Speaker 2: but today it's IT'S i can be in compliance and
[1:09:34] Speaker 2: still do everything that you have legislated is. Illegal AND
[1:09:40] Speaker 2: i think that that's just because we have people that
[1:09:43] Speaker 2: don't quite understand and don't get into the weeds of,
[1:09:46] Speaker 2: this WHEREAS i. DON'T i don't naval Gazed. China but
[1:09:50] Speaker 2: they're technocrats understand the value of data because their data
[1:09:59] Speaker 2: does not Leave they're sure unless a guy like me
[1:10:03] Speaker 2: walks it out within a brown. PAPERBACK i mean that's the. Truth,
[1:10:07] Speaker 2: yeah there's no. Reciprocity they don't. Participate we. Don't we
[1:10:11] Speaker 2: are not getting We chat data the way that they're
[1:10:14] Speaker 2: Getting instagram.
[1:10:16] Speaker 3: Data AND i have even, LIKE i, mean when you
[1:10:23] Speaker 3: find out about hackers that are selling hacked data sets
[1:10:26] Speaker 3: and things like, that and Now i'm not in that,
[1:10:29] Speaker 3: world BUT i Mean i've heard a lot about like
[1:10:31] Speaker 3: hacked data sets out Of, russia out Of, iran actually
[1:10:34] Speaker 3: haven't heard any out Of. China but Again i'm. Not
[1:10:37] Speaker 3: that's not my my.
[1:10:38] Speaker 2: Area so they'll get their, laws have. Teeth yeah you're
[1:10:44] Speaker 2: going to the. Goola you're. Not you're never going to
[1:10:46] Speaker 2: be seen. Again.
[1:10:47] Speaker 3: Yeah so.
[1:10:48] Speaker 2: There the truth is that there are black markets where
[1:10:52] Speaker 2: you can you can get some, stuff some. Stuff but
[1:10:56] Speaker 2: THAT i, mean that's almost like we need to have
[1:11:00] Speaker 2: case officers who know how to do, that go buy.
[1:11:03] Speaker 2: It we need to Have knox who know how to
[1:11:06] Speaker 2: show up at a data.
[1:11:07] Speaker 3: Conference and it reminds me of when we Had Jim
[1:11:10] Speaker 3: lawler on the, show who was big at interdicting terrorists
[1:11:15] Speaker 3: who are trying to buy physio material and trying to
[1:11:18] Speaker 3: build a nuclear. Weapon, infamous AND i believe he teaches
[1:11:22] Speaker 3: a whole. Course Actually i'd have to ask him about.
[1:11:24] Speaker 3: THIS i believe he teaches a course teaching intelligence officers
[1:11:28] Speaker 3: how to attain a certain level of technical know how
[1:11:31] Speaker 3: to be able to talk to scientists and technical people
[1:11:34] Speaker 3: in foreign. Countries AND i remember him saying something that you,
[1:11:39] Speaker 3: know engineers love to tell you about their job and
[1:11:41] Speaker 3: how it.
[1:11:42] Speaker 2: WORKS i was just going to say, That, yeah there's
[1:11:44] Speaker 2: nothing an engineer will not suffer somebody who comes from
[1:11:48] Speaker 2: the soft, sciences you, know but, yeah to be able
[1:11:52] Speaker 2: to navigate those those, markets uh fluency in that fluency
[1:11:59] Speaker 2: you have to you have to be able to know
[1:12:01] Speaker 2: the difference between you, know, YEAH i would have and
[1:12:04] Speaker 2: that's and that's, important and that's kind of that skill.
[1:12:09] Speaker 2: Set who was the you, know we need PhDs who
[1:12:13] Speaker 2: can win a bar.
[1:12:14] Speaker 3: Fight, right? Yeah, yeah Whoever Donovan.
[1:12:16] Speaker 2: Donovan, yes we need PhDs who can win a bar
[1:12:21] Speaker 2: fight and write a little bit of.
[1:12:23] Speaker 3: Code it's also, INTERESTING i think this combination of high
[1:12:27] Speaker 3: tech and low tech that we've kind of touched on
[1:12:29] Speaker 3: a little. Bit but you, know using this ad tech
[1:12:32] Speaker 3: and all the other cool things we have h to get.
[1:12:36] Speaker 3: Data but then it sounds like in some cases at,
[1:12:39] Speaker 3: least that's really providing a vector to put a guy
[1:12:42] Speaker 3: on the ground and do that terminal. Guidance you, know
[1:12:46] Speaker 3: not necessarily it's a lethal. Operation it might be an intelligence.
[1:12:49] Speaker 3: Operation BUT i, mean do you see that kind of
[1:12:52] Speaker 3: being like the future of intelligence.
[1:12:54] Speaker 2: WORK i think it's a. Component it's hard to. SAY
[1:12:59] Speaker 2: i think all of this when we think about a
[1:13:06] Speaker 2: target and how we develop that, TARGET i think that
[1:13:13] Speaker 2: the data that is, available whether it's and it could
[1:13:16] Speaker 2: even be in sort of target. Spotting everything should run
[1:13:22] Speaker 2: through a first. Level you, know what do we? Know
[1:13:27] Speaker 2: what can we understand about the motives and, intentions the
[1:13:31] Speaker 2: philosophy of this individual or group of individuals before we
[1:13:35] Speaker 2: even before we do the, bump before we, engage or
[1:13:44] Speaker 2: if we're, going if we've already identified this person and
[1:13:48] Speaker 2: we need to have his good friend be a, peer
[1:13:57] Speaker 2: how do we align our our people with this target
[1:14:02] Speaker 2: so that we're create that. Relationship it's almost like a
[1:14:07] Speaker 2: dating app where the algorithm is, said you two are a.
[1:14:11] Speaker 2: MATCH i WHEN i was needing to sort of demonstrate.
[1:14:18] Speaker 2: Value So i'm a hockey player playing men's leagues AROUND,
[1:14:24] Speaker 2: dc and just as a, TEST i wanted to see
[1:14:29] Speaker 2: if anybody from The russian embassy plays in men's league.
[1:14:34] Speaker 2: Hockey and sure, ENOUGH i find Three russians from The
[1:14:39] Speaker 2: Russian embassy who go to my rink to do something
[1:14:44] Speaker 2: called lunch. Puck it's like twelve. O'clock you just go
[1:14:47] Speaker 2: out and you split up everybody and you just sort
[1:14:51] Speaker 2: of play right lunch. Puck and they're at my, rink
[1:14:56] Speaker 2: so AND i know that they're. There you, know a
[1:15:00] Speaker 2: couple of times a. WEEK i. Don't it's. Sporadic sometimes
[1:15:02] Speaker 2: it's A, monday sometimes it's A. Thursday SO i went
[1:15:06] Speaker 2: for three days and on the second, Day i'm in
[1:15:09] Speaker 2: the locker room with Three russians from the embassy putting
[1:15:12] Speaker 2: on our, skates And i'm, like are you Guys? Russian you?
[1:15:15] Speaker 2: Know and you could smell the cigarette smoke before they
[1:15:18] Speaker 2: even got into the locker. Room but HERE i am
[1:15:22] Speaker 2: there to to be at that point in time where they.
[1:15:26] Speaker 2: Are the technology helped technology put me AND i know
[1:15:31] Speaker 2: how to put on hockey. EQUIPMENT i know how to
[1:15:33] Speaker 2: lace my, SKATES i know how to talk in the
[1:15:35] Speaker 2: locker room LIKE i there was no you, know, like
[1:15:38] Speaker 2: who is this guy with all the new, equipment who can't,
[1:15:41] Speaker 2: skate who just so happens to, be you, know really
[1:15:44] Speaker 2: interested in? Me Being. RUSSIAN i had been To moscow playing,
[1:15:49] Speaker 2: hockey SO i. WAS i was able to be very
[1:15:52] Speaker 2: conversational build, rapport BUT i knew they were going to be.
[1:15:56] Speaker 2: There it only took me two days.
[1:15:59] Speaker 3: Exactly answers the question THAT i was, asking that combination
[1:16:02] Speaker 3: of high tech and low.
[1:16:03] Speaker 2: Tech and it's, it's you, know why why wouldn't we
[1:16:07] Speaker 2: want to try to do that sort of. Matchmaking, yeah
[1:16:09] Speaker 2: why wouldn't you use the full breadth of our capabilities
[1:16:12] Speaker 2: that we've. Developed and those are the kinds of things
[1:16:14] Speaker 2: that we can look, at you, know the the entire
[1:16:18] Speaker 2: cadre of of case, officers and we need something somebody
[1:16:22] Speaker 2: with specific, skill somebody that's got a DOUBLE e or
[1:16:27] Speaker 2: a chemical and you know he's got a chemical, degree electrical.
[1:16:30] Speaker 2: Engineer you, know it's we need we need that type
[1:16:33] Speaker 2: of person to go and let's be able to put
[1:16:37] Speaker 2: them into the mix faster and not wait for or
[1:16:43] Speaker 2: just do it based upon, well you, know now he's
[1:16:45] Speaker 2: going off to this post and you know he's has
[1:16:50] Speaker 2: there's no there's no connectivity to who were who were
[1:16:54] Speaker 2: who were going. After that's the kind of thing that
[1:16:58] Speaker 2: all this data is really good to get us ahead
[1:17:01] Speaker 2: of the.
[1:17:02] Speaker 3: Game, here, EVERYONE i want to tell you about my new,
[1:17:05] Speaker 3: Novel The Most Dangerous Man out In. June it is
[1:17:09] Speaker 3: a novel about A Regimental Reconnaissance company soldier who gets
[1:17:13] Speaker 3: kidnapped while he's on a mission To West africa and
[1:17:16] Speaker 3: when he wakes, up he finds that he is now
[1:17:19] Speaker 3: being hunted for sport by a group of tech billionaires
[1:17:22] Speaker 3: through the wilds Of West. Africa this book is based
[1:17:26] Speaker 3: on stories THAT i heard over the years about safari
[1:17:29] Speaker 3: guides taking wealthy clients hunting for poachers on game reserves In.
[1:17:34] Speaker 3: AFRICA i took that AND i took a century old short,
[1:17:38] Speaker 3: Story The Most Dangerous, game and modernized. It and the
[1:17:41] Speaker 3: product is this, book WHICH i think will feel contemporary
[1:17:44] Speaker 3: and resonate with audiences. Today thank you and please check it.
[1:17:49] Speaker 3: Out so back to the serious stuff before we move.
[1:18:07] Speaker 3: On what were your observations as that campaign really got
[1:18:11] Speaker 3: up and running and the visor program got up and running.
[1:18:14] Speaker 2: Too, yeah SO i WILL i don't know if this
[1:18:21] Speaker 2: is answering your, question but SO i, was, uh what
[1:18:25] Speaker 2: do we call? It Compound? Delta. Sure So i'm down
[1:18:28] Speaker 2: in one of the bays where you, know like not
[1:18:31] Speaker 2: quite the team, room but like what the squadron, is you,
[1:18:35] Speaker 2: know all of the laddering and you, know like their,
[1:18:38] Speaker 2: garage And i'm standing on An isis flag and one
[1:18:44] Speaker 2: of the operators who were just you, know they were
[1:18:47] Speaker 2: it's like we won the war And i'm, like did
[1:18:51] Speaker 2: this was like, yep just we just brought that. Back
[1:18:55] Speaker 2: And i'm, like, okay like we just won The we
[1:18:58] Speaker 2: just won the. War and it was a few months
[1:19:02] Speaker 2: later that we, had you, know announced that we'd basically
[1:19:05] Speaker 2: won the. War But roka fell all of. Them that
[1:19:09] Speaker 2: group just had just rolled in And i'm like standing
[1:19:15] Speaker 2: on this black isis. FLAG i didn't even realize THAT i.
[1:19:19] Speaker 2: Was but those are the types of, things like you're, like,
[1:19:23] Speaker 2: yeah holy, shit you know this what the? Contribution you,
[1:19:29] Speaker 2: know did it? Was the? Contribution did it? HELP i
[1:19:33] Speaker 2: think so it made it so that we had more
[1:19:38] Speaker 2: awareness of who we were going up against the other.
[1:19:42] Speaker 3: THING i wanted to ask you about that, Too AND i,
[1:19:44] Speaker 3: know ultimately it's The jags that have to look at
[1:19:47] Speaker 3: all this stuff from a legal. Perspective, WELL i was
[1:19:50] Speaker 3: wondering if there's any issues with like title authorities or
[1:19:53] Speaker 3: if it ever came, up like we're using civilian data
[1:19:56] Speaker 3: for military. TARGETING i REMEMBER i heard a story once
[1:20:00] Speaker 3: that the syops guys wanted to do a campaign In
[1:20:03] Speaker 3: syria using Targeted facebook. Ads So we're going to target
[1:20:07] Speaker 3: people specifically in this part Of syria with OUR syop you,
[1:20:11] Speaker 3: know you, know virtual leaflets so to, speak and it
[1:20:14] Speaker 3: got shut. Down they wouldn't let him do it because
[1:20:17] Speaker 3: they were like the perception when it went. UP i
[1:20:19] Speaker 3: guess it got brief To congress at one point and
[1:20:22] Speaker 3: they said something like like they thought they were going
[1:20:25] Speaker 3: to Have. Facebook, yeah And i'm, familiar, okay so you
[1:20:29] Speaker 3: know exactly What i'm talking.
[1:20:30] Speaker 2: About. Yep so the first, uh first, Question so, yep we.
[1:20:35] Speaker 2: Did there was a jag uh AND i just overwhelmed
[1:20:41] Speaker 2: him with.
[1:20:42] Speaker 3: Right and this is all unprecedented ship that he has
[1:20:45] Speaker 3: to figure.
[1:20:45] Speaker 2: Out just he was just, like make the man. STOP i,
[1:20:51] Speaker 2: mean it was it was and he just wanted tom you,
[1:20:55] Speaker 2: know his he was not trying to relitigate The constitution
[1:21:00] Speaker 2: of The United. States he just he.
[1:21:01] Speaker 3: Was, like what's because it's, OVERSEAS i imagine it's fairly.
[1:21:04] Speaker 2: Straightforward it was MUCH i will tell you the let
[1:21:09] Speaker 2: me answer your question with. Uh THE fbi seventh floor
[1:21:15] Speaker 2: shut us. Down LIKE i get the call from the
[1:21:20] Speaker 2: special agent who's six foot, five who's, Like, nope terminate
[1:21:25] Speaker 2: Us Deep commission are. Licenses we've been deactivating because they
[1:21:29] Speaker 2: feel there's legal because of the legal, issues. Yep and
[1:21:32] Speaker 2: they're still they still don't trying to figure it. Out
[1:21:34] Speaker 2: have fidelity around, that which you, know so that did.
[1:21:40] Speaker 2: Happen it was like the rug got you, know pulled
[1:21:43] Speaker 2: right out from underneath. Us we're in the middle of
[1:21:45] Speaker 2: a bunch of stuff and they got shut, down like
[1:21:49] Speaker 2: you are. Done you were not to do this. Anymore
[1:21:52] Speaker 2: so not so much on the on THE DO d.
[1:21:54] Speaker 2: Side only when we're looking at their own, people is
[1:21:58] Speaker 2: there a little bit of, issue, Right And i'm, like
[1:22:01] Speaker 2: you know, What i'm not looking at anybody in, PARTICULAR
[1:22:04] Speaker 2: i am not looking at P I. I i am
[1:22:08] Speaker 2: looking at this constellation of cohorts for force, protection for force,
[1:22:13] Speaker 2: protection force pro like that's absolutely the right the right use.
[1:22:17] Speaker 2: Case but nothing about what we're doing Is i'm gonna you, know.
[1:22:21] Speaker 3: You're not looking up the guy's porn. Habits not not.
[1:22:24] Speaker 2: For those for those, cases that's that's on that's for
[1:22:28] Speaker 2: the on the private, SIDE i would do. That but
[1:22:31] Speaker 2: on THE D O d, side particularly around the isis,
[1:22:35] Speaker 2: timeframe that was not, uh that was not a big you,
[1:22:39] Speaker 2: know correction. Point but again credit to the command, force you,
[1:22:47] Speaker 2: know looking at this and saying this is, great but
[1:22:50] Speaker 2: this is not how he's describing this dot on the.
[1:22:54] Speaker 2: Map that is not you, know authorization to, engage, Right
[1:23:00] Speaker 2: and that was.
[1:23:01] Speaker 3: And, yeah you need.
[1:23:02] Speaker 2: More, absolutely absolutely you need to correlate and other. Things
[1:23:06] Speaker 2: but if that gives, us, hey we're gonna go and
[1:23:11] Speaker 2: it's A tfo is going to go and build a
[1:23:14] Speaker 2: constellation of sensors to you, know monitor that, place then
[1:23:19] Speaker 2: mission mission. Accomplished like we gave you a target that
[1:23:21] Speaker 2: you didn't know. About, yeah and so, yeah the a
[1:23:27] Speaker 2: lot of a lot of really good work WITH tfo
[1:23:31] Speaker 2: on this. Too they they were all in. Aggressive they
[1:23:35] Speaker 2: got it like it was to the point like are
[1:23:38] Speaker 2: we still playing around these stupid fucking t like get
[1:23:41] Speaker 2: the guy to get that guy with the funny hair
[1:23:43] Speaker 2: to come in and you, know just. Stop so a
[1:23:47] Speaker 2: lot of those types of conversations down At.
[1:23:49] Speaker 3: Belvoir and did you have some visibility on the syops
[1:23:53] Speaker 3: stuff THAT i was mentioning.
[1:23:55] Speaker 2: Just in terms of they were so it's very difficult
[1:24:02] Speaker 2: to deploy an advertisement and add impression to ten, devices twenty.
[1:24:12] Speaker 2: Devices you need to be able to do it to
[1:24:15] Speaker 2: one thousand in order for it to run through the.
[1:24:19] Speaker 2: System and SO i was just trying to explain to them,
[1:24:23] Speaker 2: like unless you are it's a mass, blast unless you
[1:24:25] Speaker 2: have you, know some infrared gun where you're going to
[1:24:28] Speaker 2: like point it and shoot the. Ad this is you
[1:24:33] Speaker 2: just need to open up the aperture a little. Bit
[1:24:35] Speaker 2: but trying to put trying to deploy AN ad to
[1:24:38] Speaker 2: a very targeted group is difficult to even know that
[1:24:43] Speaker 2: you were that you accomplished that target set because it
[1:24:49] Speaker 2: just you, know if you're you have to understand how
[1:24:53] Speaker 2: THAT ad goes from the supply to the demand side
[1:24:57] Speaker 2: and those. Connections and it's not just place AN ad.
[1:25:02] Speaker 3: On the, concern of, course is always that it's lawful
[1:25:06] Speaker 3: for us to use psyops on our, adversaries but we
[1:25:10] Speaker 3: don't want to subject The american, public even, inadvertently because
[1:25:14] Speaker 3: if you're running a syop campaign on The, internet well
[1:25:17] Speaker 3: presumably anybody can access, that right and in my, view
[1:25:21] Speaker 3: MY i guess you could call it my opinion for,
[1:25:23] Speaker 3: NOW i think that's what happened With President trump talking
[1:25:27] Speaker 3: about the discombobulator ray In. VENEZUELA i think that might
[1:25:31] Speaker 3: have been some information that we introduced into the area of. Operations. Possibly,
[1:25:38] Speaker 3: Yeah but when we talk about like running a campaign
[1:25:42] Speaker 3: like that On, FACEBOOK i, mean you can IT'S i,
[1:25:44] Speaker 3: understand it's a shotgun, blast but it's a geographical area
[1:25:47] Speaker 3: like you can know one in The United states is
[1:25:49] Speaker 3: going to see, it, right.
[1:25:50] Speaker 2: You can you can target it that. Way what you're
[1:25:54] Speaker 2: really trying to when you're when you're developing the target the,
[1:25:59] Speaker 2: audience it's it's the contextual signals first and then sort
[1:26:05] Speaker 2: of the location, second because a campaign just based purely on,
[1:26:13] Speaker 2: location because there's a lot of bleed over because you're
[1:26:18] Speaker 2: you're not there's no way to be absolutely precise that
[1:26:22] Speaker 2: you're not.
[1:26:22] Speaker 3: Exceeding BUT i mean it's the, same AND i MEAN
[1:26:25] Speaker 3: i understand like you have to make this make sense
[1:26:27] Speaker 3: for policy, makers BUT i mean when you do a leaflet,
[1:26:30] Speaker 3: drop it's not, precise.
[1:26:34] Speaker 2: Which is again it's, like, well we can't this just
[1:26:38] Speaker 2: be like a leaflet drop where we're you, know we're
[1:26:41] Speaker 2: gonna fly THE c one thirty over and it's we're
[1:26:43] Speaker 2: just gonna push it out over and it's it's it's
[1:26:46] Speaker 2: it just doesn't work that. Way, yeah you, know you,
[1:26:52] Speaker 2: know if you if you look at the the supposition
[1:26:57] Speaker 2: about The russian hacking Of facebook ad where they spent you,
[1:27:01] Speaker 2: know two hundred and fifty thousand bucks and there were
[1:27:04] Speaker 2: like ten impressions and the impressions if you look at
[1:27:08] Speaker 2: the actual. AD i don't know that even the Dumbest
[1:27:12] Speaker 2: american would have been fooled or hoodwinked into, thinking you,
[1:27:16] Speaker 2: know that the ad was. Real so when you do these,
[1:27:21] Speaker 2: things it has to be it has to look and
[1:27:25] Speaker 2: feel like a real, ad, right, Right and the moderation
[1:27:30] Speaker 2: teams At meta and the platforms are looking For, okay
[1:27:36] Speaker 2: who are, you what are you? Advertising have you advertised?
[1:27:39] Speaker 2: Before they're being very careful about suppressing what is not legitimate.
[1:27:45] Speaker 3: Advertising so do you think they've gotten good at or
[1:27:51] Speaker 3: do they these social media companies try to suppress like
[1:27:55] Speaker 3: foreign disinformation campaigns that are coming into The United, states
[1:27:58] Speaker 3: like that became a big issue after twenty.
[1:28:00] Speaker 2: SIXTEEN i don't again if, So if if the model
[1:28:05] Speaker 2: has been trained to be able to recognize that something
[1:28:08] Speaker 2: is clearly foreign disinformation and it can suppress, It, okay
[1:28:15] Speaker 2: it has to look like something that it's seen. Before
[1:28:19] Speaker 2: but when it comes in from a new channel or
[1:28:23] Speaker 2: the words are different or the configuration is, different and
[1:28:25] Speaker 2: it looks, legitimate how do you how do you suppress
[1:28:29] Speaker 2: that at? Scale it's it's very difficult to. Do and
[1:28:36] Speaker 2: if it's being if it's been amplified ten thousand. Times you,
[1:28:39] Speaker 2: know how do you how do you stop? THAT i
[1:28:43] Speaker 2: think they, FRANKLY i think they put a lot of
[1:28:45] Speaker 2: lip service to it that they're you, know their moderation
[1:28:48] Speaker 2: teams and they're. Looking BUT i just. DON'T i just
[1:28:51] Speaker 2: don't know how they can be one hundred percent confident
[1:28:55] Speaker 2: that they are impervious to that kind of. STUFF i
[1:28:58] Speaker 2: don't because it at some point that the real information
[1:29:04] Speaker 2: gets moderated out seen that right, AGAIN i think that's
[1:29:12] Speaker 2: a slippery slope, too when you start trying to arbitrate
[1:29:15] Speaker 2: what's real what's. Not let have some trust in your
[1:29:20] Speaker 2: in your. Users you. Don't we don't all need to
[1:29:22] Speaker 2: be protected from you.
[1:29:24] Speaker 3: KNOW i don't, know, MAN i WHEN i log Onto,
[1:29:27] Speaker 3: FACEBOOK i see the old folks flipping out over CLEARLY
[1:29:31] Speaker 3: ai generated.
[1:29:32] Speaker 2: Pictures that's a Pretty you shouldn't be logging in A.
[1:29:34] Speaker 2: FACEBOOK i.
[1:29:35] Speaker 3: Don't, well, yeah you're, right but presumably hundreds of tens
[1:29:40] Speaker 3: of millions of people DO i this is this is
[1:29:44] Speaker 3: one of THOSE i GUESS i would hear the mental model.
[1:29:47] Speaker 2: THAT i attached, to that. IS i wonder if they
[1:29:50] Speaker 2: had these types of conversations back when the printing press
[1:29:54] Speaker 2: became a, thing And Ben franklin under his pseudo, name
[1:29:58] Speaker 2: was pushing out ship posts because he. Could you, know
[1:30:04] Speaker 2: where was there a you, know a moderation team sitting
[1:30:07] Speaker 2: in you, Know philadelphia trying to figure out how to
[1:30:10] Speaker 2: shut him.
[1:30:11] Speaker 3: Down i'm sure there. Was King george was trying to
[1:30:13] Speaker 3: shut that.
[1:30:14] Speaker 2: Probably SO I i JUST i think that this is
[1:30:17] Speaker 2: not one of those things that you, Know it's just
[1:30:19] Speaker 2: it's gonna be one of the things that we have
[1:30:21] Speaker 2: to deal. With propaganda is not, new you, know and
[1:30:29] Speaker 2: we should probably as a country maybe moderate our indignation
[1:30:36] Speaker 2: over foreign. Meddling, yeah unless we're gonna stop foreign.
[1:30:43] Speaker 3: Medaling, yeah the game is the. Game BUT i do
[1:30:46] Speaker 3: expect The United states government to proactively fight against you,
[1:30:50] Speaker 3: know enemy.
[1:30:51] Speaker 2: PROPAGANDA i think. SO i think so so you ever?
[1:30:59] Speaker 2: DONE i, WAS i was trying to figure out the
[1:31:03] Speaker 2: origination of death To, america you, know The iranian, Chance,
[1:31:07] Speaker 2: like where did? That when did they just decide to start?
[1:31:12] Speaker 2: Chanting was? It well goes back farther than, that if
[1:31:19] Speaker 2: you think about, it goes back to fifty two fifty
[1:31:23] Speaker 2: three when we When Kermit Roosevelt kermit's, coup when We
[1:31:28] Speaker 2: british petroleum was, Like, hey the, president the duly elected
[1:31:32] Speaker 2: president Of, iran wants to nationalize oil. Fields how darey
[1:31:37] Speaker 2: and you guys need to do something about? It and
[1:31:41] Speaker 2: the dullest brothers snapped into, action Sent kermit over and
[1:31:46] Speaker 2: overthrew the, government Giving iran The, shaw which, then over
[1:31:56] Speaker 2: twenty plus, years created this antipathy towards The United states
[1:32:03] Speaker 2: because you wouldn't want even if you wouldn't want some
[1:32:07] Speaker 2: foreign government picking and choosing your, leader they would piss
[1:32:10] Speaker 2: me off. Too, so you, know the the influence the,
[1:32:19] Speaker 2: campaigns and and if you think about the way that
[1:32:21] Speaker 2: that influence campaign was lodged about going back to you,
[1:32:26] Speaker 2: know the, fifties it wasn't it wasn't, technical but surely the,
[1:32:30] Speaker 2: information the, disinformation you, know allegations of corruption and all
[1:32:37] Speaker 2: sorts of things to dislodge a dually elected president from his. Post,
[1:32:43] Speaker 2: YEAH i think, so, anyway that was A i went
[1:32:48] Speaker 2: OFF i went. Offline.
[1:32:49] Speaker 3: There it's all, right it's, topical topical to world events right.
[1:32:53] Speaker 3: NOW i guess the other Thing i'd like to swing
[1:32:57] Speaker 3: back a little bit, too is like the signature, REDUCTION
[1:33:00] Speaker 3: i guess is what we would call it the defensive
[1:33:03] Speaker 3: aspects and what are you able to say about you,
[1:33:07] Speaker 3: know kind of where we are today and helping our
[1:33:10] Speaker 3: clandestine personnel remain. Clandestine so that is.
[1:33:14] Speaker 2: The million dollar. Question SO i think, that, UH i
[1:33:21] Speaker 2: think we still have ways to go in understanding that
[1:33:27] Speaker 2: going black isn't what it used to be and accepting
[1:33:34] Speaker 2: the constraints of the world we live. In the eight
[1:33:38] Speaker 2: trillion dollar do, optly the trillion dollar advertising, economy all
[1:33:43] Speaker 2: providing the primitives for uts that go beyond just observing.
[1:33:48] Speaker 2: Us so if you are if your PREMISES i need
[1:33:53] Speaker 2: to operate without being, OBSERVED i don't, know go. WHERE
[1:33:59] Speaker 2: i don't going to be operating in the. JUNGLE i don't.
[1:34:01] Speaker 2: Know you're not going to be operating, anywhere you, know
[1:34:04] Speaker 2: in the in the in a. City so accept that
[1:34:13] Speaker 2: universal truth that it is no longer about trying to evade.
[1:34:19] Speaker 2: Observation it is it is the, model that behavioral model
[1:34:26] Speaker 2: that you need to worry. About and there are things
[1:34:33] Speaker 2: that we can do that are real and not focus,
[1:34:38] Speaker 2: pocus like playing with your, phone configuring your phone two
[1:34:44] Speaker 2: at least minimize or mitigate some of that data that's
[1:34:48] Speaker 2: revealing what we're what our intentions. Are but it's it's almost,
[1:34:57] Speaker 2: like you, know we we treated uts or signatures almost
[1:35:03] Speaker 2: like IEDs where we went and stood up The Ied
[1:35:07] Speaker 2: Defeat ORGANIZATION gidoh and spent ten billion dollars to discover
[1:35:11] Speaker 2: that we just need more. Dogs this is not something to,
[1:35:16] Speaker 2: defeat it's something to operate. Within and understanding how to
[1:35:20] Speaker 2: operate within means how DO i operate WHERE i have
[1:35:25] Speaker 2: a phone because that's, normal BUT i am going to
[1:35:30] Speaker 2: recognize that the thresholds of my actions under the umbrella
[1:35:38] Speaker 2: OF ai makes it far easier for an adversary to
[1:35:43] Speaker 2: intervene as opposed to this episodic. Surveillance so that goes
[1:35:51] Speaker 2: back to my, point like data, is it all starts
[1:35:56] Speaker 2: with the. Device it starts with the device that you
[1:35:59] Speaker 2: carry every day to the soccer, game to the, headquarters
[1:36:05] Speaker 2: whatever you're, doing because that is revealing who you are
[1:36:11] Speaker 2: and you're not but you're not, Operational.
[1:36:15] Speaker 3: So it.
[1:36:16] Speaker 2: Starts it starts there with the device that you carry
[1:36:20] Speaker 2: every day as a means of pushing back against the
[1:36:24] Speaker 2: machine and being able to, maneuver whether it's operational or
[1:36:30] Speaker 2: just as a person without your intention being predictable at
[1:36:36] Speaker 2: every moment based upon the orientation of your phone or
[1:36:39] Speaker 2: the battery level of your. Phone So i'm starting to
[1:36:46] Speaker 2: see a little bit of, daylight, like all, right we're
[1:36:50] Speaker 2: not the we're not the. Defeat we're not trying to
[1:36:53] Speaker 2: defeat this. Anymore how do we operate within? It how
[1:36:57] Speaker 2: do we understand what a cohorts pattern of life is
[1:37:03] Speaker 2: when you're under state? Cover what is what does a
[1:37:07] Speaker 2: what does a Real State department person look like when
[1:37:10] Speaker 2: they are in that? Country where do they? Go where
[1:37:13] Speaker 2: don't they? Go how do we model ourselves after that
[1:37:19] Speaker 2: to better operate below that?
[1:37:22] Speaker 3: Radar you, know the way we traditionally have taught case
[1:37:26] Speaker 3: officers when they go abroad is obviously not to stand,
[1:37:30] Speaker 3: out not to do anything that looks suspicious at. All
[1:37:33] Speaker 3: you're trying to blend in with sort of the cultural.
[1:37:35] Speaker 3: Baseline do we now have to do that? Electronically?
[1:37:39] Speaker 2: Yes well yeap that. Is and and again recognizing that
[1:37:45] Speaker 2: a case officer or somebody who's in a, denied hostile,
[1:37:48] Speaker 2: environment they've only got so many things that they can
[1:37:51] Speaker 2: be thinking, about and SO i don't want them worried
[1:37:56] Speaker 2: about their their the their digital. Signature, operate behave as you,
[1:38:04] Speaker 2: normal as an as you normally would and that is
[1:38:09] Speaker 2: part of your signature digital signature management because there's not
[1:38:13] Speaker 2: a tool that you can, use there's you, know everything
[1:38:17] Speaker 2: must be original and defendable in terms of authenticity because
[1:38:27] Speaker 2: it's That the challenge in the digital signature management is
[1:38:32] Speaker 2: it's a metadata field that you don't even know. About
[1:38:36] Speaker 2: there are thousands of them that indicate that slight deviation
[1:38:42] Speaker 2: from everybody. Else is that declaring you a? Spy not,
[1:38:46] Speaker 2: necessarily it's just declaring that you're anomalists compared to everybody.
[1:38:51] Speaker 2: Else so you know that involves you know when you're
[1:38:58] Speaker 2: doing your when you're doing your area of, familiarization like
[1:39:02] Speaker 2: understand Where americans go for dinner and then understand where
[1:39:10] Speaker 2: if you need to have a meeting with, somebody where
[1:39:13] Speaker 2: does that? Intersect where can you? Be and that is
[1:39:17] Speaker 2: digital casing that is very important to do. That all
[1:39:21] Speaker 2: of this data helps us understand where where can we
[1:39:26] Speaker 2: operate without it triggering the sky.
[1:39:30] Speaker 3: Net it can be a help and a.
[1:39:31] Speaker 2: Hindrance we have to think about it that way until
[1:39:35] Speaker 2: we start looking at it from the reclaiming initiative as
[1:39:39] Speaker 2: opposed to being afraid of it being, defensive like you
[1:39:42] Speaker 2: can't advance anything when you're constantly playing.
[1:39:44] Speaker 3: Defense, YEAH i can't have my meetings because of.
[1:39:48] Speaker 2: This i'm going to just wait for walk. Ins, yeah,
[1:39:51] Speaker 2: OKAY i, guess SO i guess that'll. Work but don't
[1:39:56] Speaker 2: you want to be? Out and how do we how
[1:39:59] Speaker 2: do make it so that you can do that without
[1:40:03] Speaker 2: feeling like you you, know you have to invoke all
[1:40:07] Speaker 2: sorts of new trade.
[1:40:08] Speaker 3: CRAFT i was thinking about this a little yesterday as
[1:40:11] Speaker 3: a for SOMETHING i was. WRITING i, mean do you
[1:40:14] Speaker 3: think the nineteen nineties in the early two thousands will
[1:40:17] Speaker 3: kind of be looked back at is sort of like
[1:40:19] Speaker 3: a golden era of intelligence gathering that we had the
[1:40:22] Speaker 3: technology but no one else.
[1:40:23] Speaker 2: DID i think it's a good lesson in because look
[1:40:27] Speaker 2: at where we are. Now we're kind of we stopped
[1:40:30] Speaker 2: modernizing because The Cold war dividend made it such, that you,
[1:40:35] Speaker 2: know we didn't have to be on the tip of the,
[1:40:39] Speaker 2: spear and look what, happened, Right so this is this
[1:40:46] Speaker 2: is one of those things at sort of the headquarters,
[1:40:49] Speaker 2: level unless you are, like we should expect our intelligence
[1:40:54] Speaker 2: agencies to be on the absolute cutting edge and in
[1:40:57] Speaker 2: many sometimes like some of the things that we do
[1:41:00] Speaker 2: are a ma like you just you can't make it.
[1:41:04] Speaker 2: Up it is so. Good it just needs to be
[1:41:08] Speaker 2: sort of culturally on the cutting. EDGE i shouldn't be
[1:41:12] Speaker 2: explaining to a case officer of ten years that the
[1:41:17] Speaker 2: flashlight app made by A chinese you, know university does
[1:41:21] Speaker 2: not need to know your.
[1:41:22] Speaker 3: Location you should click that. Off and nowadays you still
[1:41:30] Speaker 3: do consulting with THE us. GOVERNMENT i do mostly on
[1:41:33] Speaker 3: the training side and the training. Curve you, know the
[1:41:37] Speaker 3: programs of instruction have gone from sort of these exhaustive
[1:41:44] Speaker 3: dumps on.
[1:41:45] Speaker 2: What is ad tech to how do we how do
[1:41:51] Speaker 2: we maneuver and manage? It here are some solutions to
[1:41:56] Speaker 2: minimizing the data that you are radiating? Individually how do
[1:42:01] Speaker 2: you how do you think about that in terms of your?
[1:42:06] Speaker 2: Career and so we're starting to there's there's starting to
[1:42:12] Speaker 2: be some acceptance that it's not just awareness and admiring
[1:42:16] Speaker 2: the problem and calling it, progress it's how do we
[1:42:21] Speaker 2: how do we move forward because or not going back
[1:42:25] Speaker 2: to a pre uts. Environment those days are those days are.
[1:42:28] Speaker 2: Gone this is the operating. Environment and you, know like
[1:42:31] Speaker 2: the people that were working In, moscow they figured it
[1:42:35] Speaker 2: out when and they came up with a whole new
[1:42:37] Speaker 2: trade craft program Called moscow rules and had dummies in
[1:42:43] Speaker 2: the passenger seat of their car that they could pop
[1:42:45] Speaker 2: up when they needed. To you, know they had a little,
[1:42:48] Speaker 2: gap put up the jack in the. Box one guy dumps.
[1:42:51] Speaker 2: Out you, know the surveillance team doesn't know the. Difference
[1:42:56] Speaker 2: we need to be thinking in terms like, that and
[1:42:58] Speaker 2: we can do. That AND i think, that you, know
[1:43:03] Speaker 2: there's all sorts of things that we can do that
[1:43:07] Speaker 2: are on that bleeding edge that just give us that
[1:43:11] Speaker 2: operational maneuverability or that ability to reclaim some initiative and
[1:43:16] Speaker 2: not stick out like a sort, thumb you, know as
[1:43:19] Speaker 2: someone who's carrying around some flip. Phone and that's so
[1:43:25] Speaker 2: that's the THAT'S i think the curve or that's where
[1:43:27] Speaker 2: we're moving towards a normalization of. This, yeah but again
[1:43:33] Speaker 2: it's it's like trying to push rock uphill and there
[1:43:39] Speaker 2: needs to be buy in at the at the at
[1:43:44] Speaker 2: the headquarters account or all, right we're not calling it
[1:43:48] Speaker 2: an existential threat. Anymore we are moving. Forward figure it.
[1:43:52] Speaker 2: Out what do you? Need how do we do how
[1:43:55] Speaker 2: do we deal with this because this isn't going. Away
[1:44:00] Speaker 2: our business is we are in the people, business so
[1:44:05] Speaker 2: you know those but but just you, know think about
[1:44:08] Speaker 2: if you if you deconstruct uh that that that pipeline
[1:44:13] Speaker 2: of intelligence work or operational, work you, know figure out
[1:44:17] Speaker 2: where where these types of data sets enhance d, risk you,
[1:44:24] Speaker 2: know take out some slack in the, Chain like all,
[1:44:26] Speaker 2: right we don't need to go and do. This we
[1:44:28] Speaker 2: don't need to put somebody you, know set aside watching
[1:44:32] Speaker 2: a place we can we can watch it virtually and
[1:44:36] Speaker 2: understand what's going on. There we need to be thinking
[1:44:39] Speaker 2: in terms of how would an advertiser do? This and
[1:44:44] Speaker 2: so that's sort of the meat of my of my
[1:44:48] Speaker 2: instruction is here's what the advertising community is doing if
[1:44:52] Speaker 2: we if we look at this from, ah here's where
[1:44:56] Speaker 2: the here's where the future is for. You they're laying
[1:45:00] Speaker 2: they're laying the map out for you as we. Speak
[1:45:04] Speaker 2: you need to be part of, that part of that,
[1:45:07] Speaker 2: conversation part of that. Solution and it's it is data,
[1:45:15] Speaker 2: inference probabilistic, modeling allocation of resources and. Attention it's the
[1:45:23] Speaker 2: analog to that is you're going through customs in a
[1:45:27] Speaker 2: foreign country and you're there's something about you where you
[1:45:30] Speaker 2: get pulled into Secondary what did you do to get
[1:45:33] Speaker 2: pulled into secondary from the data, perspective how are you
[1:45:37] Speaker 2: getting pulled into an allocation of resource that is now
[1:45:42] Speaker 2: going to look more deeply at, you whereas you, know
[1:45:47] Speaker 2: the model was looking at ten million. People nothing to
[1:45:50] Speaker 2: see here until that one. Outlier and that's WHERE uts, becomes,
[1:46:00] Speaker 2: uh sort of an action, platform not so much a
[1:46:04] Speaker 2: event reconstruction. Capability and that's that's the. Future, yeah the
[1:46:11] Speaker 2: future is going to be. Wild but all of these
[1:46:14] Speaker 2: things are. Thing you, know everything That i'm saying IS
[1:46:16] Speaker 2: i would give this advice to my next door. Neighbor, yeah,
[1:46:19] Speaker 2: yeah this is not you, know think about. Privacy the
[1:46:22] Speaker 2: philosophy of privacy is a more dignified, you a way to.
[1:46:27] Speaker 2: Live it's not something that's. Weird it's not something that's.
[1:46:30] Speaker 2: Weird it's not something that's limited to or specific, to you,
[1:46:33] Speaker 2: know the espionage business or the operational. Business it is
[1:46:38] Speaker 2: just a lifestyle.
[1:46:39] Speaker 3: Choice so some of the other stuff you're working, on
[1:46:43] Speaker 3: tell us About, uh you sit on the board of
[1:46:45] Speaker 3: directors Of. Unplugged Unplugged, yeah so unplugged is a is
[1:46:50] Speaker 3: a privacy. Phone it is a proprietary hardware operating system.
[1:46:56] Speaker 3: Architecture so there is a PROPRIETARY vpn that does everything
[1:47:01] Speaker 3: That i've just been talking about in terms of mitigating
[1:47:03] Speaker 3: the amount of data that's flowing off of your.
[1:47:05] Speaker 2: Device it. Is it, Is and if we think about
[1:47:09] Speaker 2: sort of the consumer bolt on privacy tools VPNs or
[1:47:12] Speaker 2: the configuration, toggles that does not execute at the at
[1:47:20] Speaker 2: the operating system. Level so an app on your phone
[1:47:24] Speaker 2: has wide latitude to go and. Collect the unplugged phone
[1:47:29] Speaker 2: intervenes in that data collection and gives the user the capability.
[1:47:36] Speaker 3: Of like you're, Saying apple only has two, toggles this
[1:47:39] Speaker 3: phone you can.
[1:47:40] Speaker 2: Go you, know if you if you carry around an,
[1:47:42] Speaker 2: iPhone just go to your go to privacy and security
[1:47:45] Speaker 2: and there's a bunch of security settings like access to your, camera,
[1:47:48] Speaker 2: microphone things like. That but the privacy settings And android
[1:47:52] Speaker 2: is is pretty much the same. Way the privacy settings
[1:47:55] Speaker 2: are your AT id and location data and on the
[1:48:01] Speaker 2: unplugged phone is taking the entire surface of the device
[1:48:06] Speaker 2: that an app can interrogate and, collect, encrypt, transmit is
[1:48:15] Speaker 2: intervening in that process because it has system level authority and.
[1:48:20] Speaker 2: Control you don't have that with an.
[1:48:23] Speaker 3: iPhone and is this built off of An android, System
[1:48:26] Speaker 3: so it is the hardware feels.
[1:48:29] Speaker 2: Like An android, device but the operating system is it
[1:48:35] Speaker 2: is entirely proprietary built hardware software built for. Privacy which,
[1:48:41] Speaker 2: again the only way to mitigate or to intervene in
[1:48:45] Speaker 2: the in THE x fill of data requires that that
[1:48:50] Speaker 2: system level control that system level authority because you, know
[1:48:55] Speaker 2: when you install an app on your, phone the operating
[1:48:58] Speaker 2: SYSTEM iOS Or android does not have authority over what
[1:49:02] Speaker 2: that app. Does it is not overseen whether that app
[1:49:06] Speaker 2: is is complying with. Policy it is merely hosting that.
[1:49:13] Speaker 2: App and that's. Problem apps collect far more than they
[1:49:17] Speaker 2: need to for. FUNCTIONALITY i think there's going to be
[1:49:24] Speaker 2: a tremendous emerging market for a product like. That last,
[1:49:28] Speaker 2: NIGHT i was reading a newsletter that's printed by what's
[1:49:33] Speaker 2: called The Luddite dispatch is the name of the, newsletter
[1:49:36] Speaker 2: AND i think it's a bunch of kids that LIKE
[1:49:38] Speaker 2: nyu And, colombia but their.
[1:49:41] Speaker 3: Technology they're technology. Skeptical they're not anti technology, necessarily but they're,
[1:49:46] Speaker 3: like the imposition of all these technologies into our lives
[1:49:49] Speaker 3: is making our lives worse rather than better at this,
[1:49:52] Speaker 3: point and so we need to like pull a little,
[1:49:55] Speaker 3: Back like we're not against like clean drinking water and
[1:49:57] Speaker 3: things like. That but you, know we need to limit
[1:50:00] Speaker 3: some of these. Things and it sounds like that's exactly
[1:50:02] Speaker 3: what this phone. Does it is all of the apps
[1:50:05] Speaker 3: that you would normally want to use still. Function the
[1:50:10] Speaker 3: intervention piece where the app is trying to send. Data
[1:50:14] Speaker 3: the app is still sending the essential, data but the
[1:50:19] Speaker 3: data that it doesn't need is.
[1:50:22] Speaker 2: Sort of zeroed. Out so the app still is, seen,
[1:50:25] Speaker 2: yeah is. Functional just killing the ad in the, background
[1:50:29] Speaker 2: just mitigating that flow to the ad, tech to the
[1:50:35] Speaker 2: to the monetization citadels that apps depend upon in order
[1:50:41] Speaker 2: to be. Relevant and so you, know is it a maximalist?
[1:50:47] Speaker 2: Solution AM i sitting here saying this is going to
[1:50:50] Speaker 2: one hundred protect you from Commercial anybody who says that
[1:50:56] Speaker 2: is full of? Shit but innimizing, intervening having some control
[1:51:04] Speaker 2: is the first. Step and you, know like IF i
[1:51:10] Speaker 2: you listen to sort of the ad reads of, VPNs
[1:51:14] Speaker 2: all A vpn is doing is changing the route of your,
[1:51:17] Speaker 2: traffic right and the architecture of an. App you ever
[1:51:20] Speaker 2: open Up uber while you're running A, vpn And uber
[1:51:23] Speaker 2: knows exactly where you are because the VPNs are not
[1:51:27] Speaker 2: operating at that at that.
[1:51:29] Speaker 3: App, level so not quite as protected.
[1:51:32] Speaker 2: As not quite as. Protected so These bolton, SOLUTIONS i
[1:51:36] Speaker 2: think they're all. Great you should definitely use. Them but
[1:51:38] Speaker 2: in the, meantime if you, are if you really are
[1:51:41] Speaker 2: thinking about. This AND i only arrived at BECAUSE i
[1:51:44] Speaker 2: was getting the question THAT i kept, getting how DO?
[1:51:49] Speaker 2: I how DO i get off of commercial? Data how
[1:51:52] Speaker 2: do how DO? I how DO i do? This and
[1:51:56] Speaker 2: sort of going to a first like a first, principles
[1:51:59] Speaker 2: how DO I where does it all? Start and it's
[1:52:03] Speaker 2: these apps that you install. It that installation gives it,
[1:52:08] Speaker 2: permissions and it's like pulling that. Surface and the way
[1:52:13] Speaker 2: in which this has become even more sort of. Acute
[1:52:19] Speaker 2: When apple released its privacy, INITIATIVE i think it WAS
[1:52:24] Speaker 2: iOS fourteen a couple of years, ago where they gave
[1:52:28] Speaker 2: the users the option to suppress the AD. Id it
[1:52:31] Speaker 2: was a big deal the monetization. COMMUNITY i, Said, okay
[1:52:38] Speaker 2: we don't get the ad we don't get the stable identifier,
[1:52:40] Speaker 2: anymore we'll go develop new. Ones we don't get PRECISE gps,
[1:52:45] Speaker 2: anymore will go infer location other. Ways so they just
[1:52:50] Speaker 2: sort of pivoted everybody's you, know, thinking, Oh i'm, Private
[1:52:54] Speaker 2: i've selected these things the apps haven't haven't gone.
[1:52:59] Speaker 3: Away you said you're not going to defeat. It you're
[1:53:01] Speaker 3: not going to defeat, it and you're working on a book,
[1:53:04] Speaker 3: TOO i. Am it's called The Quantum, signature and it.
[1:53:09] Speaker 2: Is it's what. It's the intent behind it is to
[1:53:13] Speaker 2: take all of the technology things that sort of are
[1:53:17] Speaker 2: are introduced in in sort of uh, fiction but to
[1:53:24] Speaker 2: apply the what is really going on in a in
[1:53:28] Speaker 2: a story that's readable and not just another book about surveillance.
[1:53:32] Speaker 2: Capitalism so it's going to be like a novel about
[1:53:35] Speaker 2: it's going to be. Real everything that's in it is
[1:53:38] Speaker 2: a real. Thing but it's the intent is that readers
[1:53:42] Speaker 2: will be able to connect to it because it's things
[1:53:45] Speaker 2: that are happening to. Them, Right HOW I spy On,
[1:53:48] Speaker 2: terrorists traders and you is the. Subtitle so that'll come
[1:53:53] Speaker 2: out In. June oh cool of this. Year, Awesome so
[1:53:59] Speaker 2: you know how go, yeah, yeah, no my book's coming
[1:54:01] Speaker 2: out In june. Two, Okay i'll give you a copy of,
[1:54:03] Speaker 2: it right if you. Want?
[1:54:04] Speaker 3: Cool, absolutely is there anything else we haven't talked about
[1:54:07] Speaker 3: that you'd really like to touch.
[1:54:08] Speaker 2: Upon privacy is. Normal everybody should think privacy not just.
[1:54:17] Speaker 2: Operators it's worth it's worth investing in what.
[1:54:22] Speaker 3: For the person out there that really is thinking Like
[1:54:25] Speaker 3: i've got nothing to. HIDE i, mean what would you tell,
[1:54:28] Speaker 3: them like why your privacy is? IMPORTANT i, MEAN i
[1:54:32] Speaker 3: guess this entire interview we've talked.
[1:54:33] Speaker 2: About, YEAH i, mean so my first reply to them
[1:54:37] Speaker 2: is you assume you know who's, looking and maybe you
[1:54:40] Speaker 2: have nothing to hide, today but you don't know who's
[1:54:43] Speaker 2: going to be looking in ten, years, right? Right, so
[1:54:47] Speaker 2: and what's in it for you to? Have what's the benefit.
[1:54:52] Speaker 3: Because there's criminals and stuff looking also you just don't.
[1:54:55] Speaker 2: Know it's it's like you have keys to your, house
[1:54:59] Speaker 2: you lock Your you live in a very safe, neighborhood
[1:55:02] Speaker 2: but you still lock your. Door that is about. Access
[1:55:06] Speaker 2: privacy is about. Access there are some things that you
[1:55:12] Speaker 2: just should maintain as something that is not between you
[1:55:17] Speaker 2: and companies you've never heard about And, PHIL i, mean
[1:55:23] Speaker 2: if you look At Judge brandeis wrote The right to
[1:55:31] Speaker 2: Be Left. Alone it was an article that he wrote
[1:55:34] Speaker 2: for The Harvard Law review after his law, partner the
[1:55:40] Speaker 2: paparazzi invaded his law partner's daughter's, wedding and this became
[1:55:48] Speaker 2: landmark it's basically the basis for a lot of our
[1:55:52] Speaker 2: privacy laws written in, okay, fifties, forties you go back
[1:55:58] Speaker 2: and it could have been written to just in terms
[1:56:01] Speaker 2: of the risks that he was, seeing and THAT i think,
[1:56:07] Speaker 2: is you, know the more things we, think we're experiencing
[1:56:12] Speaker 2: everything for the first, time it's. All it's, all we've
[1:56:17] Speaker 2: all seen it. BEFORE i had a reason to watch
[1:56:22] Speaker 2: Rewatch The matrix the other, day And Laurence fishburne is
[1:56:27] Speaker 2: he should be like the spokesperson for privacy because both
[1:56:30] Speaker 2: In The matrix and in John, wick where he's you,
[1:56:34] Speaker 2: know using pigeons to communicate because he doesn't trust The.
[1:56:37] Speaker 2: Internet if you think about just the sort of oppressions
[1:56:43] Speaker 2: of that movie in nineteen ninety nine in terms of data,
[1:56:48] Speaker 2: privacy you, know the big machine in the, sky like,
[1:56:55] Speaker 2: OKAY i don't know that they may be doing all
[1:56:58] Speaker 2: sorts of acro badic, moves but the rest of everything
[1:57:02] Speaker 2: that they've described is pretty spot.
[1:57:04] Speaker 3: On. Yeah, yeah the movie WORKS i think real well
[1:57:06] Speaker 3: as like a metaphor not that we're living in a virtual,
[1:57:11] Speaker 3: world but rather that like our reality is crafted by
[1:57:14] Speaker 3: these massive institutions all around us all the.
[1:57:16] Speaker 2: Time absolutely, Absolutely AND i THINK i just it's AM
[1:57:22] Speaker 2: I DO I DO i gain anything by saying no to?
[1:57:25] Speaker 2: THAT i don't, Know BUT i certainly don't need to
[1:57:29] Speaker 2: just be a sheep to the to the to the
[1:57:33] Speaker 2: eye Of Tim cook and Surgery, brent, LIKE i don't
[1:57:36] Speaker 2: need to be. There they're ones in, zero they're one in.
[1:57:39] Speaker 2: ZERO i. WON'T i won't do. That, Yeah and that's
[1:57:44] Speaker 2: and that's that is the that's the path to operational uh.
[1:57:50] Speaker 2: Initiative privacy Is privacy is now sort of like the
[1:57:55] Speaker 2: first pillar of trade. Craft you come, in you start.
[1:57:59] Speaker 2: Out do you want to broadcast everybody that you've just
[1:58:02] Speaker 2: joined THE? Cia right? Right probably want, to you, know
[1:58:06] Speaker 2: think about that because in ten, years it'll matter that
[1:58:09] Speaker 2: you posted, something you, know a picture of you and
[1:58:12] Speaker 2: the recruiter at the at the recruiting fair with THE
[1:58:15] Speaker 2: cia logo in the background with your thumb up like
[1:58:18] Speaker 2: probably you know that's gonna come back and get. You so,
[1:58:23] Speaker 2: anyway but NOW i appreciate you having me on.
[1:58:25] Speaker 3: This. Great, yeah thanks for doing. IT i think this
[1:58:27] Speaker 3: is like a very unique perspective and get people thinking
[1:58:31] Speaker 3: a little bit outside the. Box.
[1:58:32] Speaker 2: Hope so, yeah, Hope so.
[1:58:35] Speaker 3: You have any websites or anything you want to direct
[1:58:37] Speaker 3: people to places where they can find you On. LinkedIn
[1:58:42] Speaker 3: i'm On, LinkedIn, okay find you on. TikTok you have a.
[1:58:45] Speaker 2: TikTok, yeah you find me on TikTok exactly other than,
[1:58:48] Speaker 2: THAT i am other than you, know just googling my,
[1:58:53] Speaker 2: name but you. Can you can get to me on On.
[1:58:55] Speaker 2: LinkedIn and that's that's WHERE i that's WHERE i spend
[1:59:02] Speaker 2: most of my social media all, right investment.
[1:59:04] Speaker 3: Cool so, well, yeah thank, you thanks, Again, mike appreciate.
[1:59:08] Speaker 3: It thank, you and, uh everyone out, there we will
[1:59:11] Speaker 3: see you next. Time thanks for joining. Us, hey, GUYS
[1:59:16] Speaker 3: i want to tell all of you today about a
[1:59:18] Speaker 3: new newsletter that we're launching that encompasses both the Team house,
[1:59:21] Speaker 3: podcast the Eyes on, podcast and the High side news,
[1:59:26] Speaker 3: outlet WHICH i run With Sean. Naylor. Uh the newsletter
[1:59:30] Speaker 3: is going to be once a. Week it's going to
[1:59:32] Speaker 3: come into your inbox and you're going to get the
[1:59:34] Speaker 3: most current podcasts on Eyes on and the Team house
[1:59:38] Speaker 3: and whatever's topical or current on the High. Side so
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[1:59:44] Speaker 3: You as social media algorithms are pretty, iffy and you
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[2:00:00] Speaker 3: website for it Is Teamhouse podcast dot kit dot, com
[2:00:03] Speaker 3: Slash Join Teamhouse podcast dot kit dot com slash. Join.
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