# Can Singapore cinemas survive the onslaught of streaming services?

An episode of [Deep Dive](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1491441787), 6 Mar 2025, 25 min.

Audio: https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/traffic.omny.fm/d/clips/7740012e-e1bd-4f85-81c4-a7f50047134a/053184de-200a-4a53-a80c-ab6e006ab608/c5482084-01dc-4192-9583-b298002ba136/audio.mp3?utm_source=Podcast&in_playlist=22e00ef9-7730-4062-8cd4-ab6e006ab624

Some cinemas which have existed for decades have shut as some people prefer to watch films at home. Can the experience of watching a movie on the big screen be saved? Steven Chia and Crispina Robert discuss with Karen Tan, co-founder of The Projector and Ben Slater, senior lecturer at NTU’s School of Art, Design and Media. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

## Transcript

[0:03] Speaker 1: You're listening to a CNA podcast.
[0:08] Speaker 2: Hello everyone. Welcome back to the Deep Dive podcast. Hi Steve. Hello.
[0:12] Speaker 2: How have you been? It's been good. Good. When you
[0:14] Speaker 2: lead in like that and like a question is coming,
[0:17] Speaker 2: I know I can feel it already. Yes, the question is,
[0:20] Speaker 2: when was the last time you saw a movie in
[0:22] Speaker 2: a theater? Or like at the cinema. I think like pre-COVID, pre-COVID.
[0:27] Speaker 2: No idea what I watch. So where do you watch
[0:29] Speaker 2: your movies? Just at home, streaming service, you know, I've
[0:32] Speaker 2: got a big enough TV at home in the comfort
[0:34] Speaker 2: of my own home. It's good enough for me.
[0:37] Speaker 2: nights, but only at home. Don't pay for tickets. It's
[0:39] Speaker 2: more the hassle of going out and usually it's like
[0:41] Speaker 2: a Friday night and I think of the crowds. Well,
[0:44] Speaker 2: I'm like, go for what? That's that's my question. What
[0:48] Speaker 2: value do they have to my movie experience? You know what,
[0:53] Speaker 2: I make it a point to go to the cinema,
[0:55] Speaker 2: especially if it's a movie that's hugely anticipated. OK, so
[0:59] Speaker 2: the last one you saw was Conclave. Highly recommended. I
[1:03] Speaker 2: feel that the cinema experience.
[1:05] Speaker 2: Special. And that's what resonated with me with the speech
[1:09] Speaker 2: that Sean Baker, the best director winner at the Oscars,
[1:12] Speaker 2: just recently gave. He said that in the darkened theater,
[1:16] Speaker 2: you laugh, you cry, you scream with random strangers, right?
[1:19] Speaker 2: It's a common experience. And come on, when you're dating, Steve,
[1:23] Speaker 2: you got to have the experience of watching a movie. Yeah, yeah, yeah. OK,
[1:27] Speaker 2: fair enough. That one I did, yeah, right? I mean,
[1:30] Speaker 2: because at that time there were no streaming services, you know.
[1:34] Speaker 2: And the cinema is one of those places you can
[1:36] Speaker 2: practice that yawn and stretch your arm out behind the girl. Exactly.
[1:39] Speaker 2: But you know what, I laugh and cry at home
[1:41] Speaker 2: too when I watch the movie, so I don't need
[1:44] Speaker 2: to be in the cinema, and I think that's a
[1:46] Speaker 2: question here. The the cinemas are really struggling today, right? Yeah,
[1:49] Speaker 2: because of people like you. OK, quick recap, uh, Cathay
[1:53] Speaker 2: Cineplex was the latest to run into financial trouble.
[1:56] Speaker 2: It shut down one of its outlets last year, I
[1:58] Speaker 2: Was WE Cinemas also ceased operations. They had been around
[2:03] Speaker 2: for 80 years and they sold it off. Shaw Theaters
[2:06] Speaker 2: has closed its outlet at Seletar Mall after 10 years
[2:09] Speaker 2: of operation. That's bad. So what's happening, right? Why are
[2:11] Speaker 2: fewer Singaporeans watching movies in the cinemas and what can
[2:15] Speaker 2: be done to bring them back?
[2:19] Speaker 2: To help us unpack this, we have Ben Slater, writer,
[2:23] Speaker 2: editor and senior lecturer at NTU School of Art Design
[2:26] Speaker 2: and Media. Hi, Ben. Hello, hello. And Karen Tan, co-founder
[2:31] Speaker 2: of independent cinema operator, The Projector. Hi there. Thanks for
[2:34] Speaker 2: having me. Let's start with the numbers. Numbers are showing
[2:37] Speaker 2: that cinema attendance has actually been declining. People have been
[2:40] Speaker 2: resuming other activities after COVID, you know, things like traveling,
[2:45] Speaker 2: going to concerts, those are the things, but
[2:47] Speaker 2: What's different about going to the cinema? Why hasn't that
[2:50] Speaker 2: come back? Let's talk about number of tickets sold a year,
[2:54] Speaker 2: for example. So in 2018 and 2019 thereabouts, good sample
[2:58] Speaker 2: of pre-COVID we were looking at, I think about 19
[3:02] Speaker 2: to 21, so say about average 20 million tickets.
[3:05] Speaker 2: It sold a year. What are we now? 2023, which
[3:08] Speaker 2: is the latest stats from IMDA. We are looking at
[3:11] Speaker 2: about 10 million tickets all the year. So that's a
[3:13] Speaker 2: clear halving. 2024, I think when on speaking to the
[3:17] Speaker 2: other operators, they kind of largely experienced the further drop
[3:21] Speaker 2: from 2023.
[3:22] Speaker 2: So there's a bit of a trend there. why do
[3:25] Speaker 2: you think this is happening? Ever since COVID and that
[3:27] Speaker 2: people have been back out going for concerts, events, why
[3:30] Speaker 2: not the cinema. Yeah, there's a fair amount of revenge
[3:33] Speaker 2: spending and revenge partying going on. Fundamentally, there's the rise
[3:36] Speaker 2: of streaming, behavior patterns have changed.
[3:39] Speaker 2: The consumption of film is now people don't just consume
[3:42] Speaker 2: it on large screen anymore, they consume it on small
[3:45] Speaker 2: screens and also from the comfort of the home. And
[3:49] Speaker 2: there's also a lot more to choose from. The streamers
[3:52] Speaker 2: have also kind of upped their budget in terms of
[3:54] Speaker 2: content production. So it's a shame because some of the
[3:57] Speaker 2: stuff that's been produced would look fantastic on large screen,
[4:01] Speaker 2: you know, but they don't actually get consumed on large screens.
[4:04] Speaker 2: So they look fantastic on a large screen, but at home.
[4:06] Speaker 2: They just look good. So in a way, it's good
[4:09] Speaker 2: enough and enjoy my movies, but I don't need it
[4:11] Speaker 2: to sound like amazing. I'm not that kind of guy,
[4:13] Speaker 2: you know, but there is a key factor in the
[4:16] Speaker 2: moviegoing experience that you're missing out on, which is the
[4:18] Speaker 2: communal experience. OK, you gotta tell me that because it
[4:21] Speaker 2: is because of the communal experience that I stay home. Well,
[4:24] Speaker 2: that may be telling us a lot about your personality.
[4:29] Speaker 2: He has a problem with the dirty. I'm an extrovert.
[4:32] Speaker 2: I love socializing.
[4:32] Speaker 2: But thousands of people have sat in the seat. I
[4:35] Speaker 2: go there and one of the guy next to me
[4:36] Speaker 2: is talking all the time throughout the movie going, Oh,
[4:38] Speaker 2: did you see what happened there? What happened in that part?
[4:40] Speaker 2: There is something really wonderful about everybody being sharing a film, right?
[4:45] Speaker 2: And that that could be something incredibly emotional. That could
[4:48] Speaker 2: be something really scary. It could be something terrifically in
[4:52] Speaker 2: like when you laugh and everyone laughs at the same
[4:54] Speaker 2: time exactly or even just that feeling when everyone goes
[4:58] Speaker 2: completely quiet because something.
[4:59] Speaker 2: really incredible happens on screen. We're talking about the Oscars
[5:03] Speaker 2: and the end of Anora, which is the film that
[5:05] Speaker 2: won the the best that has an incredible quiet ending,
[5:09] Speaker 2: which is absolutely devastating. And I think you wouldn't feel
[5:13] Speaker 2: that emotional state if you just watched it at home
[5:16] Speaker 2: and you, you were pausing for your pee breaks and
[5:19] Speaker 2: grabbing your wine or your beer. But once you're all
[5:21] Speaker 2: there in that room and you're all sharing something together,
[5:24] Speaker 2: you're going through this experience together.
[5:26] Speaker 2: I think that's really an amazing experience. Yeah, but the
[5:30] Speaker 2: competitor is formidable, right? Your Netflix and your Disney. I
[5:35] Speaker 2: do want to offer one tiny bit of historical perspective,
[5:38] Speaker 2: which is that actually this sort of up and down
[5:40] Speaker 2: cycle in cinema attendance is not new, right? And it's
[5:44] Speaker 2: not new internationally, it's also not new in Singapore. Singapore
[5:47] Speaker 2: moviegoing attendance has always traditionally been very, very high. There's
[5:51] Speaker 2: a big audience.
[5:52] Speaker 2: and the density of population, the amount of cinemas. So
[5:55] Speaker 2: it kind of reached a peak in the late 70s.
[5:57] Speaker 2: And then with home video, it kind of went down.
[6:00] Speaker 2: And in the 80s people were having the same conversations,
[6:03] Speaker 2: cinemas going, places were closing down. In this case, I
[6:07] Speaker 2: think it's here to stay, because in the past, we
[6:08] Speaker 2: went to the cinemas because we couldn't get the movies
[6:11] Speaker 2: anywhere else. Now some of the movies go direct to
[6:14] Speaker 2: streaming services. They don't even make it to the cinemas.
[6:17] Speaker 2: So again,
[6:18] Speaker 2: I am spoiled for choice as a home viewer. I
[6:20] Speaker 2: don't need the the ecosystem is changing the ecosystem is changing.
[6:24] Speaker 2: One can also argue that there is a place for
[6:26] Speaker 2: cinema going and we'll continue to do so because it's
[6:29] Speaker 2: also a social experience, but you can't replicate at home
[6:32] Speaker 2: on your laptop. Yeah, you go with someone, you spend
[6:35] Speaker 2: 5 minutes talking to them, the movie starts, you're like, OK,
[6:37] Speaker 2: no talking. And then for 2 hours you sit in silence.
[6:41] Speaker 2: Here's the thing, that's the typical Singapore moviegoing experience.
[6:46] Speaker 2: Maybe 2 minutes before it starts because you want to
[6:48] Speaker 2: skip all the ads. You go in, you watch the thing,
[6:51] Speaker 2: you get ejected into some soulless, like fluorescently lit facilities
[6:55] Speaker 2: corridor and you go home, right? That's that's exactly right. However,
[7:03] Speaker 2: the lobby. However, it doesn't have to be that way.
[7:06] Speaker 2: And which is why at the projector, we look at
[7:08] Speaker 2: what we're creating our products not film, our product is
[7:11] Speaker 2: an experience and a social experience.
[7:13] Speaker 2: So typically people come about half an hour before they
[7:16] Speaker 2: get great food and drink, and then they make their
[7:19] Speaker 2: way into the theater and after that, they hang out
[7:21] Speaker 2: at the bar with your friends, you know, and they
[7:25] Speaker 2: have a night out. So it's a whole social experience
[7:29] Speaker 2: that you can't have at home. That's unique to what
[7:30] Speaker 2: the projector is doing for the typical cinema in Singapore,
[7:33] Speaker 2: they still don't do that. They could learn some things
[7:36] Speaker 2: from the projector. I think the commercial cinemas like we're
[7:38] Speaker 2: hearing from Cafe and MM2.
[7:41] Speaker 2: They're like closing down and they're saying, please come to
[7:42] Speaker 2: our cinemas, remember the past, remember how great Cafe used
[7:45] Speaker 2: to be. But they can also be changing up their offering.
[7:48] Speaker 2: I mean, food in commercial cinemas is terrible, right? It's overpriced,
[7:53] Speaker 2: it's bland, it's not progressed anywhere for for 20 years.
[7:56] Speaker 2: Whereas the projector is like really, really good food. That's
[7:59] Speaker 2: one thing, the whole experience of it. But do you
[8:01] Speaker 2: need to have more bells and whistles? I'm thinking if
[8:03] Speaker 2: I go to the cinema, it's because I can't get
[8:05] Speaker 2: this experience at home, whereas maybe like virtual reality. I'm.
[8:09] Speaker 2: Thrown into the movie. I'm in the jeep driving with
[8:11] Speaker 2: the guys. I can smell the jungle air. I like
[8:13] Speaker 2: that that you cannot replicate anywhere else. Therefore, it's a
[8:21] Speaker 2: destination that I visit because I know that experience would
[8:24] Speaker 2: be uniquely different. There's been a long tradition as cinema
[8:28] Speaker 2: traditionally has competed with other things like television and and
[8:32] Speaker 2: the home video.
[8:33] Speaker 2: They've always tried to add in these bells and whistles,
[8:35] Speaker 2: so we had IMAX and we've got the 4DX sound
[8:38] Speaker 2: and all that kind of stuff. But at some point,
[8:40] Speaker 2: those are novelties. You remember 3D, you remember Avatar and
[8:44] Speaker 2: how everyone thought that that was gonna be the norm,
[8:47] Speaker 2: you know, that all big blockbuster movies would be in
[8:50] Speaker 2: this 3D format and you'd pay more. It was a
[8:52] Speaker 2: more expensive ticket. And that kind of went away because
[8:55] Speaker 2: they're fun, but they are novelties, but the core experience
[8:59] Speaker 2: of shared.
[9:00] Speaker 2: sharing the movie emotionally with other people and being around
[9:04] Speaker 2: other people, that doesn't go away. And I think when
[9:05] Speaker 2: people like it, they will keep coming back. So with
[9:08] Speaker 2: the projector, there is definitely a core audience that keep
[9:11] Speaker 2: coming and really like what you offer. And that used
[9:14] Speaker 2: to be the case with commercial cinemas in Singapore. You know,
[9:17] Speaker 2: I remember at the weekends, even in the early 2000s
[9:19] Speaker 2: and later on Orchard Road, every screen was pretty much
[9:23] Speaker 2: full on Saturday night because people would go out, they
[9:26] Speaker 2: would drink lots.
[9:26] Speaker 2: coffee and ice blended drinks with their friends, and these
[9:30] Speaker 2: are young people and then they would go up and
[9:32] Speaker 2: watch the late movies and there was a real buzz
[9:34] Speaker 2: to that and it was partly a social thing, but
[9:36] Speaker 2: it was also it's an artistic thing. You're getting to
[9:39] Speaker 2: see really good films as well. Yeah, OK, but I
[9:42] Speaker 2: want to come back to the business model, Karen, for
[9:45] Speaker 2: the projector. What have you learned running this business, right?
[9:49] Speaker 2: Movies and making it more than just coming in, watching
[9:52] Speaker 2: a movie and getting out.
[9:53] Speaker 2: What have you learned in the process that it can
[9:56] Speaker 2: be done, can it be reversed? I blunt. How are
[9:59] Speaker 2: you guys doing financially? Are you finding that to make
[10:02] Speaker 2: it work just to break even is a tough sells
[10:05] Speaker 2: hard at the moment. You've got to work like 3
[10:07] Speaker 2: times as hard to earn what you used to, that's
[10:09] Speaker 2: for sure. Forget about just the cinema landscape in general.
[10:13] Speaker 2: I think a lot of businesses are suffering from post-COVID inflation.
[10:16] Speaker 2: We talk about rent is primarily one of the biggest
[10:19] Speaker 2: contributors to cost. That hasn't come down. In fact, that's
[10:23] Speaker 2: actually how much the ticket cost at the projector. At
[10:26] Speaker 2: the moment, on the weekends, 16. Yeah, that's about the same,
[10:31] Speaker 2: so cost is one of the things. If you have
[10:34] Speaker 2: a family, it adds up, right? But cinemas are space dependent.
[10:37] Speaker 2: And we know that in Singapore space means rent and
[10:41] Speaker 2: pretty much you have they're actually, you know, the one
[10:44] Speaker 2: commercial tenant that has the largest footprint, right? It's different
[10:47] Speaker 2: if you're running a cafe. So rent plays a big part.
[10:50] Speaker 2: Now we've got like manpower costs on the rise as well,
[10:53] Speaker 2: utilities costs like you name it, how long is a
[10:55] Speaker 2: piece of string.
[10:57] Speaker 2: This is what I'm saying, especially if you're an SME
[10:59] Speaker 2: in the that's your challenge in terms of the cost.
[11:02] Speaker 2: But for the home viewer, you know, they're thinking $16
[11:06] Speaker 2: for a ticket, $16 for a monthly subscription. I can
[11:09] Speaker 2: watch like multiple shows. Sure. And I do see that
[11:12] Speaker 2: actually it's a competition for for people's time and attention.
[11:16] Speaker 2: You know, with the rise of social media, doom scrolling,
[11:18] Speaker 2: binge watching, we've all been there, done that. It's kind
[11:21] Speaker 2: of like normal practice now.
[11:22] Speaker 2: But I do see that there's still a place for
[11:24] Speaker 2: people who want to go out. People still do want
[11:26] Speaker 2: to go out. You spend half your time on your screens,
[11:28] Speaker 2: you have time, you're working from home. You want a
[11:30] Speaker 2: social experience, and that is there and available for you
[11:33] Speaker 2: at the cinema, you know, and so I don't think
[11:36] Speaker 2: that need is a basic human need. I don't think
[11:38] Speaker 2: that's going away anytime soon. I think the streaming thing
[11:41] Speaker 2: has been a bit exaggerated, but that's really totally changed.
[11:44] Speaker 2: You know, you talk about $16. People used to pay
[11:46] Speaker 2: like 50 to $60 for their StarHub subscription. I mean,
[11:49] Speaker 2: and mostly what
[11:50] Speaker 2: People are streaming is TV shows, right? But they're they're
[11:52] Speaker 2: streaming the latest series of something. There are movies on streaming,
[11:56] Speaker 2: but it's not really a primary offering. If you think
[11:59] Speaker 2: about the big Oscar films this year that were nominated
[12:01] Speaker 2: for the big prizes, most of them aren't streaming. And
[12:05] Speaker 2: so if you want to be up to date with
[12:07] Speaker 2: that conversation, you have to go and see them in
[12:09] Speaker 2: the cinema. And thankfully that's still the case. They're still
[12:12] Speaker 2: protecting those films and making sure that they are in
[12:15] Speaker 2: the big screen, which is what the filmmakers want when
[12:17] Speaker 2: she mentioned a few.
[12:18] Speaker 2: Names of the Oscars and you know, these winners. I
[12:20] Speaker 2: never heard of the movies. I've not been following and
[12:23] Speaker 2: keeping up. So until it arrives here in Singapore shores
[12:26] Speaker 2: or at the cinema, then I'll go, oh, conclave, let
[12:28] Speaker 2: me Google that. What is that about? And I didn't
[12:30] Speaker 2: watch the Oscars. I mean, it's kind of fun, you know,
[12:32] Speaker 2: I'll read up some news, but I got to think
[12:34] Speaker 2: that I represent at least a certain percentage of the
[12:37] Speaker 2: population who is not in the know when it comes
[12:40] Speaker 2: to the scene. So to them they're saying, what's the
[12:43] Speaker 2: big deal? People might be coming out less.
[12:46] Speaker 2: But I do think let's say going to the cinema
[12:47] Speaker 2: is now a bit more of a destination, an event,
[12:50] Speaker 2: it's an occasion thing, right, which means that if you're
[12:53] Speaker 2: not doing it that often, you're then therefore also prepared
[12:56] Speaker 2: to spend more, you know, if it's an occasion. So
[12:59] Speaker 2: from the operator point of view, they have to think
[13:01] Speaker 2: through a few of these things, right? It's not just
[13:03] Speaker 2: the movie you're screening. It could be even the type
[13:05] Speaker 2: of films, right? For the GBs and the shows of
[13:08] Speaker 2: the world, it's all your Marvel movies and all your
[13:11] Speaker 2: big blockbusters, but there's scope for independence.
[13:14] Speaker 2: The niche films like the projector has shown. Do you
[13:16] Speaker 2: think that that's kind of the way to go as
[13:19] Speaker 2: well to broaden the reach? I don't think that's going
[13:22] Speaker 2: to be a silver bullet because by definition, it is,
[13:25] Speaker 2: it is indie. So it's not mass market. But what
[13:29] Speaker 2: we've seen over the last 10 years is that there's
[13:31] Speaker 2: an increase in interest for non-mainstream content. In part it's
[13:35] Speaker 2: also audience education on our part, but increasingly people are
[13:38] Speaker 2: quite curious minded about watching something that they've never heard.
[13:42] Speaker 2: before that's actually a heartening trend for us in that
[13:46] Speaker 2: niche independent market because Singapore is so small, the question is,
[13:50] Speaker 2: what shall we do this weekend? stuck for like what
[13:53] Speaker 2: to do. So something novel, interesting projector says it's a
[13:55] Speaker 2: movie about and you're like, oh, yeah, yeah, you have festivals, right?
[14:00] Speaker 2: So the other thing that we do quite a lot
[14:01] Speaker 2: is we lack of a better term, we eventize films.
[14:04] Speaker 2: So for example, we what we like to do is
[14:06] Speaker 2: to have like a director's Q&A after, for example.
[14:10] Speaker 2: You know, he could zoom in from wherever he is
[14:11] Speaker 2: in the world and speak to the audience and answer
[14:13] Speaker 2: questions about the film. Or for example, if we're showing
[14:16] Speaker 2: a film about cats, and we pair it up with
[14:18] Speaker 2: the cat welfare Society and do fun things like that,
[14:21] Speaker 2: and they do a cat adoption drive and you have
[14:23] Speaker 2: like tens in the foyer. So it becomes a much
[14:27] Speaker 2: larger experience than just coming in and just watching a
[14:30] Speaker 2: film and lead.
[14:31] Speaker 2: Um, and hopefully it's also thought provoking as well. I
[14:35] Speaker 2: also want to say something about you showing older films,
[14:38] Speaker 2: because I teach students, I teach younger people, and I
[14:40] Speaker 2: think they're really aware that now more than ever that
[14:44] Speaker 2: like watching an old film, a classic old film on
[14:46] Speaker 2: their phone or the iPad or the laptop, they're not
[14:50] Speaker 2: really getting the full experience.
[14:51] Speaker 2: And so to be able to go and watch like
[14:54] Speaker 2: classic old movies like the Kura retrospective that we did.
[14:58] Speaker 2: I was thinking of that because I went to see
[14:59] Speaker 2: Seven Samurai and it was on a Saturday afternoon. It
[15:02] Speaker 2: was pretty full and there was people there with their families,
[15:07] Speaker 2: obviously older people bringing their older kids, small kids, but
[15:11] Speaker 2: maybe their teenage son and daughter saying, hey, you should
[15:13] Speaker 2: watch this film, it's really good.
[15:15] Speaker 2: And again, back to the communal sense of enjoying the film,
[15:19] Speaker 2: that's a really special thing. And those films aren't on streaming.
[15:22] Speaker 2: To get to see those older titles and they're well
[15:24] Speaker 2: curated and they're interesting selections, sometimes not always the ones
[15:28] Speaker 2: you expect, is a really beautiful opportunity. But do you
[15:31] Speaker 2: think the audience has also changed and that the kind
[15:34] Speaker 2: of guys like you, but, I'm in a very much
[15:36] Speaker 2: a minority.
[15:39] Speaker 2: For instance, there used to be the Singapore Film Festival.
[15:41] Speaker 2: I remember when I was much younger, I I it's
[15:45] Speaker 2: still going. OK, so I haven't been in many years.
[15:47] Speaker 2: I can't help it because I've been and saw a
[15:49] Speaker 2: few movies he used to go for the Singapore Film Festival.
[15:55] Speaker 2: I did watch quite a lot of stuff, but then
[15:57] Speaker 2: after a while, it got really painful because I sat
[15:59] Speaker 2: through some movies that I thought was so agonizing.
[16:02] Speaker 2: Because they were artsy, some guy riding a motorbike up
[16:05] Speaker 2: and down the slope, they keep stalling, and he does
[16:06] Speaker 2: it for like 3 minutes. I'm like, I think I've seen,
[16:09] Speaker 2: you know, so, so I'm like, OK, I can't take this.
[16:12] Speaker 2: So as I got older, my taste also changed and
[16:14] Speaker 2: now Singapore, we're always so rushing about time is precious.
[16:19] Speaker 2: So you're thinking, if I want to get some entertainment,
[16:21] Speaker 2: I want to just go and watch a mindless movie
[16:23] Speaker 2: and and leave going ha ha, what was it about?
[16:26] Speaker 2: I don't remember, but I had a good time. But
[16:27] Speaker 2: film is a lot as well, right?
[16:29] Speaker 2: Yeah, so it can be it can be both. But
[16:31] Speaker 2: the challenge is, I think for more people, they'd be
[16:33] Speaker 2: a bit more like me than you, unfortunately, right? That
[16:37] Speaker 2: is also partly to do with the education aspect, right, of,
[16:40] Speaker 2: of making sure people are aware that all of these
[16:42] Speaker 2: different experiences are at the cinema. And it's not always
[16:44] Speaker 2: just about seeing like a really difficult art house movie,
[16:47] Speaker 2: you know, people are like also like going to see
[16:50] Speaker 2: big commercial films and and and you know, things like
[16:53] Speaker 2: horror movies, which work really well in the big screen.
[16:56] Speaker 2: You can't have that experience at home of being in
[16:58] Speaker 2: a big crowd watching a horror movie. So, so how
[17:00] Speaker 2: would you try and convince people who are listening and saying,
[17:03] Speaker 2: give me a reason to go to the cinema today?
[17:05] Speaker 2: I think we give you about 10 reasons already. Well,
[17:08] Speaker 2: I'm sorry, you haven't convinced me yet, so I.
[17:11] Speaker 2: You're hard to convince Steve. What about your students, the
[17:14] Speaker 2: ones that you teach, I mean, would, would they go
[17:18] Speaker 2: to the cinema? A lot of the students I teach
[17:20] Speaker 2: are film media students, right? And I actually think the
[17:23] Speaker 2: interest is more than it used to be. And I
[17:24] Speaker 2: think there's a curiosity about film that's actually growing and
[17:28] Speaker 2: an awareness that it's an art form and it's not
[17:31] Speaker 2: just about entertainment. You're mentioning the festival in the past,
[17:34] Speaker 2: really you had to wait for the festival to come
[17:36] Speaker 2: round before you could see.
[17:38] Speaker 2: Frenzy of buying tickets and then rushing around and that
[17:40] Speaker 2: that scarcity created a buzz around the festival, which was great,
[17:44] Speaker 2: but of course it's better that there are venues offering
[17:47] Speaker 2: that year round, right? And I, and I think the
[17:49] Speaker 2: students definitely a lot more open minded and because they've
[17:52] Speaker 2: grown up with the devices and they've grown up being
[17:54] Speaker 2: able to download everything, they are aware that seeing something
[17:57] Speaker 2: on the big screen is a bit of a special experience,
[18:00] Speaker 2: and they, they are drawn to it. The thing is
[18:03] Speaker 2: to build on that, right? It's.
[18:04] Speaker 2: To market to them, it's to sustain that and develop
[18:07] Speaker 2: that and make sure that we kind of keep that going.
[18:10] Speaker 2: That's right. But from a business point of view to
[18:12] Speaker 2: eventize moviegoing movie, it's a lot of work. It's a
[18:18] Speaker 2: lot of money too. Maybe your FNB can cover some
[18:21] Speaker 2: of the cost, you know, because the restaurant is so good,
[18:23] Speaker 2: you might just come have a drink instead, right? Now
[18:27] Speaker 2: we've also diversified to non-film content as well, so we do.
[18:32] Speaker 2: stand up comedy, you have like poetry slams, you have
[18:35] Speaker 2: book readings, you have all sorts of things happening as well,
[18:38] Speaker 2: wrestling matches in our in our competitions, you know, dress
[18:39] Speaker 2: up nights, all sorts of things, right? So we've got that.
[18:48] Speaker 2: And then we've got the boss, so there's some.
[18:50] Speaker 2: revenue as well. And the third pillars actually, and something
[18:54] Speaker 2: that we've seen pick up is what we call venue hire,
[18:56] Speaker 2: which is a third party coming in like corporates like
[18:59] Speaker 2: to hire venue, yeah, then use the space during the
[19:01] Speaker 2: day and during the time. So in that respect, then
[19:04] Speaker 2: you're kind of saying that the current model of going
[19:06] Speaker 2: to the cinema, just showing up, watching, leaving.
[19:09] Speaker 2: It sounds like it's kind of hit a dead end.
[19:12] Speaker 2: That experience is always there. And people just maybe need
[19:17] Speaker 2: more reasons to get out of the home and because
[19:20] Speaker 2: we have too many cinemas to begin with.
[19:22] Speaker 2: So it's kind of whittling down, but eventually you'll find
[19:25] Speaker 2: the number that is enough for the group that still
[19:28] Speaker 2: does that. So interesting stat again, pre-COVID, there was about
[19:33] Speaker 2: maybe 270 to 280 screens in Singapore based on IMDA
[19:38] Speaker 2: so you can quote them on that. And then
[19:40] Speaker 2: Now I think in 2023, that number hasn't actually changed
[19:43] Speaker 2: very much. So if you compare that to the admits,
[19:47] Speaker 2: I suppose there would be some right what they call
[19:49] Speaker 2: right sizing to be done. But I also noticed that
[19:52] Speaker 2: that some of the cinemas rent them out to third parties, right,
[19:55] Speaker 2: like churches, for example, sometimes charity events and
[19:59] Speaker 2: So maybe that's one way they can kind of keep
[20:01] Speaker 2: afloat but still keep the core business of offering movies
[20:05] Speaker 2: still because it's such an important part of culture and
[20:10] Speaker 2: a social experience, you know. Yeah. OK, Ben, last question,
[20:13] Speaker 2: when TV first came out, people said that it would
[20:17] Speaker 2: kill the film industry. It didn't. So same thing.
[20:21] Speaker 2: That's why I say streaming, we're all getting uh kind
[20:24] Speaker 2: of really worried about streaming. I think it's that much
[20:27] Speaker 2: different really than all of these other things that came along.
[20:30] Speaker 2: In a way, probably the biggest threat to cinema and
[20:33] Speaker 2: a lot of activities is the internet itself. The fact
[20:36] Speaker 2: that people are always on and can get so many
[20:38] Speaker 2: different kinds of content. I think streaming and Netflix are
[20:41] Speaker 2: not that much of a threat to cinema. I mean,
[20:43] Speaker 2: the only issue with Netflix was the fact that they
[20:45] Speaker 2: would buy up these big movies from film festivals and.
[20:48] Speaker 2: not want to release them in the cinema, but I think,
[20:52] Speaker 2: you know, one of the things Sean Baker, director of Anora,
[20:55] Speaker 2: he kept on saying we filmmakers basically got to stand
[20:57] Speaker 2: up and say we want our films in the cinema.
[20:59] Speaker 2: And I think as people become more aware of that,
[21:02] Speaker 2: we'll see more of that happening. I think he also
[21:05] Speaker 2: mentioned like deliberately that he would continue to make films
[21:09] Speaker 2: for large screen as well to be consumed on large screen.
[21:13] Speaker 2: And that was quite a deliberate.
[21:15] Speaker 2: Intent and call. What about local filmmakers, right? I mean,
[21:18] Speaker 2: like Jack Neo's latest film actually did make money. Pretty
[21:22] Speaker 2: much all of his films make money. I would also
[21:25] Speaker 2: like to point out that one man does not an
[21:27] Speaker 2: entire filmic landscape make, but we've also seen an emergence
[21:34] Speaker 2: of more independent filmmakers in Singapore, local filmmakers in support
[21:39] Speaker 2: of the local film ecosystem. We do tend to give them.
[21:42] Speaker 2: A much longer run than the big boys. And we
[21:45] Speaker 2: do actually see interest from the public, you know, to
[21:49] Speaker 2: not just consume the film but also get to know
[21:51] Speaker 2: the filmmakers themselves. I do love watching movies. I will,
[21:56] Speaker 2: I will go I will go again to find that
[21:59] Speaker 2: experience and see if it's still, you know.
[22:02] Speaker 2: Trigger something in me, makes me go, whoa, it's kind
[22:04] Speaker 2: of cool to be here, you know. To summarize, guys,
[22:06] Speaker 2: any last pitch you would like to say. I would say, look,
[22:11] Speaker 2: I think streaming and social media and and all that,
[22:14] Speaker 2: that's here to stay, you know, that's not going away.
[22:17] Speaker 2: But equally I think there is a place in one's
[22:19] Speaker 2: life and lifestyle to go to the theater.
[22:21] Speaker 2: And watch a film, principally again, because it's a social experience.
[22:25] Speaker 2: We're spending half our time inhabiting the digital realm. That's right. Equally,
[22:29] Speaker 2: we also need the in physical in real life sort
[22:32] Speaker 2: of experiences as well that as important now more than ever, actually.
[22:36] Speaker 2: People have to start young. OK. I think formative experiences,
[22:40] Speaker 2: kids going to the cinema, seeing a film for the
[22:41] Speaker 2: first time.
[22:43] Speaker 2: In a cinema in that space, the atmosphere of that space,
[22:46] Speaker 2: you know, that the kind of moment when the film begins,
[22:48] Speaker 2: it's very exciting. And I think once they get that
[22:51] Speaker 2: bug young, it won't go away. It's part of your
[22:54] Speaker 2: childhood memories. We're all, even you must be nostalgic about
[22:57] Speaker 2: films you saw when you were a kid. Don't answer that.
[23:00] Speaker 2: I know you're gonna say no. Uh, so that's one thing.
[23:03] Speaker 2: I also think a key thing, marketing is really challenging
[23:08] Speaker 2: in this very fragmented world. Uh, you know, I maybe
[23:12] Speaker 2: we all remember the days where we used to buy
[23:14] Speaker 2: the newspaper, open up, and the double page spread with
[23:16] Speaker 2: all of the listings, and that was just a wonderful
[23:19] Speaker 2: thing to see it all laid out there. That's gone now.
[23:22] Speaker 2: We have to subscribe to various mailing lists and check
[23:24] Speaker 2: various websites to find out what's going on.
[23:27] Speaker 2: So marketing from all sides of the industry needs to
[23:30] Speaker 2: get better and sharper and more targeted so that people
[23:33] Speaker 2: know what's going on. So that whole thing needs to
[23:36] Speaker 2: get some resources behind it.
[23:38] Speaker 2: Because it isn't just a commercial thing, it is a
[23:40] Speaker 2: cultural thing and it is important. On that note, actually,
[23:43] Speaker 2: just a segue, it's a cultural thing indeed. I know
[23:46] Speaker 2: that's the recent announcement of the Singapore culture part. Can
[23:51] Speaker 2: you use it for movies? At the moment, I think not.
[23:54] Speaker 2: And so therefore, I would suggest that that film is
[23:57] Speaker 2: firmly part of culture and.
[24:00] Speaker 2: Included in that culture pass, OK, to whoever is listening,
[24:08] Speaker 2: I totally agree with you guys because I love watching
[24:10] Speaker 2: movies so you don't have to convince me at all.
[24:13] Speaker 2: And um Sean Baker also said this, he said, parents,
[24:16] Speaker 2: bring your kids to the cinema. Yes, he did, yes.
[24:19] Speaker 2: I wasn't original.
[24:23] Speaker 2: So thank you guys. Thank you for coming on. Yeah,
[24:25] Speaker 2: so that's it for this week's deep dive. A big
[24:28] Speaker 2: shout out to our team who of course supporting us
[24:30] Speaker 2: all the time, Juani Johari, Tiffany Ang, Sa Joan Chan,
[24:33] Speaker 2: and Hanida Amin. And of course, if you have comments
[24:36] Speaker 2: or any thoughts, do drop us a note. We do
[24:38] Speaker 2: love to hear from you. See you next week. Bye.

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