# #103 - From Grief to Resilience: A Discussion with Liz Howard

An episode of [Coaching Mind's Podcast: Perform at your best!](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1487456967), 16 Jul 2023, 53 min.

Audio: https://www.buzzsprout.com/710091/episodes/13233038-103-from-grief-to-resilience-a-discussion-with-liz-howard.mp3

Losing a season due to injury, loosing a teammate who moves away, losing a loved one, coach, or teammate who tragically passes away...the list is endless and the topic can feel overwhelming. How can coaches help the people in their program navigate loss without falling victim to comparison. How can coaches help athletes process tragedy when they feel broken and confused themselves? Navigating the stormy seas of grief and loss can seem like an impossible journey, especially within the competitive world of athletics. Join me as I welcome Liz Howard, a licensed mental health counselor who brings a wealth of knowledge from both personal and professional encounters with grief. We explore how the complexities of grief can affect athletic performance, and the critical role of coaches in guiding athletes through such emotional turmoil. Liz sheds light on the essential act of acknowledging and expressing feelings, and the power it has in transforming our experiences with loss. Our conversation deepens as we delve into the significance of empathy during these challenging times. Liz illustrates the immense power of human connection in helping athletes confront and process their emotions. We highlight the importance of creating safe spaces and fostering supportive relationships that can aid individuals through these trying experiences. Moreover, Liz cautions against the constant urge to fix or solve the situation, stressing the need to provide space for processing feelings. In the latter part of our discussion, we unfold the importance of self-care among coaches. We explore how our understanding of the science behind emotions can be used to build meaningful connections with athletes. Liz offers a treasure trove of resources to deepen our comprehension of how emotions impact us and how to navigate them effectively. This episode is a profound exploration of grief, emotions, and the power of understanding in fostering resilience. Don't miss this insightful journey with Liz Howard, a beacon of wisdom in the realms of mental health. Are you an ATHLETE looking to take your training to the next level? Check out our website to learn more about 1-on-1 training opportunities: mentaltrainingplan.com/athletes Are you a COACH looking for an affordable year-round mental performance training program? Check out the MTP Academy available through our website: mentaltrainingplan.com/teams

## Chapters

- 0:00 Navigating Grief in Coaching
- 9:15 Grief in Athletics
- 15:56 Loss and Transitions
- 23:33 Processing Transitions and Loss in Athletics
- 30:18 Avoiding Comparison
- 43:02 Navigating Emotions and Building Connections
- 50:03 The Importance of Self-Care for Coaches

## Transcript

[0:00] Ben: Hey, welcome to the coaching minds podcast brought to you by mental training plan, the podcast that provides coaches with the tools and techniques to help their athletes develop a strong mindset and perform at their best.
[0:10] Ben: Very special guest today, Liz Howard.
[0:13] Ben: Thank you so much for joining us on the show.
[0:16] Liz: Yeah, thanks for having me.
[0:18] Ben: So I do want to start off just in, just in case you're turning on this podcast and you are one of these people.
[0:25] Ben: You know, since I contacted Liz, I've had two different, two different teams, communities, organizations that that lost a loved one.
[0:36] Ben: I've had a couple teams that have had players.
[0:41] Ben: Well, one that got hurt and he's going to be out for the season.
[0:45] Ben: He's trying to figure out how do I handle, you know, the loss of this season.
[0:49] Ben: I've got another team that they've had, you know, a couple players move away and you know, now it's sort of like, well, they're not here anymore.
[0:59] Ben: This isn't about any of those.
[1:02] Ben: We're not on here to talk about any of those specific stories.
[1:05] Ben: This is.
[1:06] Ben: You know, I'm assuming if you're listening to this podcast it's because you're dealing with grief of some kind and that's.
[1:13] Ben: You know that that starts to get a little bit out of my wheelhouse, and so I wanted to bring an expert in and just and have a conversation with her, and my therapist actually recommended Liz to us.
[1:25] Ben: So, liz, if you could just give us kind of a quick summary of who you are and what you do, we're excited about getting to know you today?
[1:35] Liz: Yeah, definitely yeah.
[1:37] Liz: So I'm Liz and I'm a licensed mental health counselor.
[1:40] Liz: I work at pathways to healing counseling so it's actually in Noblesville, so we work with a variety of people.
[1:47] Liz: We're all EMDR trained, so I work with a lot of trauma based spaces.
[1:50] Liz: Grief is definitely a part of all that process.
[1:53] Liz: And then my prior life I was also an athlete and played basketball and other sports, so I'm a huge fan of that integration piece that's needed for like our whole self.
[2:04] Liz: So I'm excited to be here and get to chat.
[2:08] Ben: For me personally, when you know we're talking about one of these situations and I guess let's start with the toughest one you know, dealing with somebody who's passed away, whether that's a loved one, whether that's a teammate, whether that's a coach, you know there's almost this what do I even do?
[2:27] Ben: Where do I even begin?
[2:28] Ben: Kind of feeling, you know, and even kind of inter intermixed with I'm dealing with the loss, I'm going through my own grief process.
[2:39] Ben: How in the world am I going to be available to my to my players, to my team, like how can I even help them when, when I'm in a pretty rough spot?
[2:48] Ben: As you think about that, what advice would you have?
[2:52] Ben: For you know that that coach that's just recently had someone, a loved one that we've lost, how do we?
[3:01] Ben: How do we even begin?
[3:04] Liz: Yeah, you know, as you're talking, I'm thinking I need to share a little bit more of, because grief is such an experience and it's such there's so much to it, it's like a whole body experience and so sharing a little bit more about not just the clinical side, but personally I lost my dad a year ago and he was very young and so walking with someone in that process and that, that death process, and then I've also had, you know, different heartbreaks and broken things and then teammates who've gotten cancer, things like that where.
[3:35] Liz: So I think when you bring all this up, it's like it stirs up, like my body feels it right.
[3:40] Liz: Yeah, for sure I think if anyone feels that, like you know, just naming what it is number one is, I think, so important Because, especially when and when we are trained or wired to be resilient and persevere and have goals and win a game and lead and champion, you know, I think that that can be a lane where the grief, when it pops up, it feels slow, it can feel like you're trudging through mud, it can feel like where's the path like, and so there's like this, both, and that can happen.
[4:16] Liz: And so I think first step really and this is from personal experience, not just like as a counselor, because we all, you know, we're all humans is to just be able to recognize and name, like what we're experiencing and have really good, safe people to get to share that with.
[4:33] Liz: So, as a coach, right, like I mean, there's one experience of not only holding space and leading a team you know, younger individuals through it, but also needing to be that safe space, and so that would kind of offer its own process and then for the athletes themselves right, like how to have that camaraderie, how to have that safety and what that looks like.
[4:52] Liz: So I guess those are two different veins, but naming it is, I think, like very important to be able to say it without feeling shame around it, because we're just humans.
[5:01] Ben: And you know our audience is primarily coaches, who you know, I'm assuming are listening to this podcast, wondering how do I help my team walk through this?
[5:10] Ben: And you know, there there is that balance of you know we want to have like this, this safe space where you know we cross this line and we put all of the pain and sorrow and suffering off to the side, because you know, if your girlfriend breaks up with you and you go out and have a bad practice, you're not getting better.
[5:30] Ben: If you had an argument with your mom and you, you know, whatever, whatever that bad situation was, we're trying to tell them leave that at the door.
[5:38] Ben: We're trying to tell them come out here and perform at a high level.
[5:42] Ben: You know, because if, if everybody who was dealing with heartache, hardship, adversity in their life just didn't practice, then on the days that you know they were feeling that we would never have practice because there's always something going on.
[5:56] Ben: But then you know this is different, like how do we what's that balance look like between okay, now it's practice time and we're going to set aside all of these emotions that we're dealing with, that we're struggling with, or we're going to do something with them and we're going to try and practice versus, you know, then we still need to take the time as a team to come together to have those conversations Like that.
[6:25] Ben: That's that feels overwhelming.
[6:28] Ben: It feels overwhelming to me, so I'm assuming there's other coaches out there feeling something similar.
[6:33] Ben: What's that balance look like?
[6:36] Liz: Yeah, Well, I think that that would be, that's a great question and I think that's.
[6:40] Liz: That's something that we could write a book on, so maybe I'll get on that.
[6:43] Liz: But I feel like when you know, when you're sharing that too, again, I hear that both ends and there is some right like acknowledging when you come to practice, like you said, life is happening, Like we're all having life happen, and there is some value, a great value, in learning how to kind of switch gears, put, put stuff down, to show up and then let your body move and like kind of get in a different space.
[7:06] Liz: I think there's a lot of good health to that as well.
[7:09] Liz: Right, Like our brain health, our body health, our mental health, we need to be able to have some boundary and some separation in order, you know, to heal and grow.
[7:17] Liz: So I think that is valuable.
[7:19] Liz: Number one.
[7:19] Liz: I think that's valuable.
[7:20] Liz: I think it's how it's done.
[7:21] Liz: So it's more, it's less of like in my experience, you know there's the like leave everything at the door and then go practice, but then when you leave, you've still got all that, and I think it's it's kind of allowing relationship to be built between coaches and players.
[7:34] Liz: Right, Like you, you could speak to this better than me, but you know your players, you know your team.
[7:38] Liz: So at the end of the day, like yes, you know Susie breaks up with Tommy, then like okay, like we've got to figure that one out.
[7:45] Liz: But if, like, someone's gone and there's, like you know, it's a collective felt sense on the presence of the team, it probably needs to be addressed.
[7:53] Liz: And so I'm wondering, like you know, even asking you like what are your thoughts as a coach on how would you like address, like, a team situation versus an individual situation?
[8:04] Liz: Like, just from your perspective, how would you see that?
[8:08] Ben: Well, I'm the podcast host and I'm supposed to ask questions and answer them, but no, I'm totally kidding.
[8:15] Ben: I'm glad you, I'm glad you asked this because this literally happened to us and you know we were, we were at team camp and it was kind of like there were some players that were hurting and there were some players that were in a tough spot and, you know, actually brought up like hey, I'm hurting not just because he's not here on the football field, I'm hurting because my best friend isn't here.
[8:41] Ben: What do I do with that?
[8:43] Ben: You know, and we were talking a little bit about going through the grief process and what that looks like.
[8:49] Ben: You know I won't say that I got everything perfect or I got everything right, but I don't think that's necessarily the focus.
[8:57] Ben: I think it's it's more of a are you going to be there?
[9:00] Ben: Are you going to show up?
[9:01] Ben: Are you going to build that relationship?
[9:03] Ben: Are you going to build that connection and let that player know I'm here for you and I care about you?
[9:08] Ben: You know, more so than having to get it all right or say all the right things.
[9:15] Ben: So you know, it's kind of tough because it's like, on one hand, there are times where we have to set it aside and we have to go, move around, as you put it, and, you know, violently collide with each other on a football field and right, and then, you know, having some space after that to have conversation and not just, you know, not forget, these are people, that this isn't, you know, this isn't like a video game and I'm just moving these kids around and trying to win.
[9:49] Ben: This is, these are people, were in this together and we're trying to, we're trying to work through this or, as you said, kind of sludge through that, trudge through that mud, like that.
[10:01] Ben: That's what it feels like.
[10:02] Ben: So I don't know that that's what we did.
[10:06] Ben: How, what do you think?
[10:08] Liz: Yeah, I love that.
[10:09] Liz: No, because I think that's like when you're talking through this, because these are so specific to different people, I'm probably hearing you share that was huge because you're the coach in it.
[10:18] Liz: And when you're talking through that like I'm hearing like You've got, you've got your systems and your goals and your space for like the team and the play and the getting it out with the energy in the body right, and then you've got the relationship and I think that Relationship part is that is like key and like I mean I'm a counselor, coaches, teachers, like people that are in helping professions, like you kind of get in it for reasons like you want to develop, you want to grow, you want to see movement, growth-orientedness, you know that kind of thing.
[10:45] Liz: But I do think within like you know the coaching realm, it's helpful maybe to have some education on what is grief, just so like there's an idea of kind of like a game plan, like okay, so like what am I working with?
[10:57] Liz: like what could they be experiencing?
[10:58] Liz: Experiencing because we have so much neuroscience now that knows it.
[11:02] Liz: Like our emotions live in our body.
[11:04] Liz: So again, I understand.
[11:06] Liz: I understand athletics.
[11:08] Liz: It's not just gonna be like, oh, you feel sad, so you don't have to practice today.
[11:13] Liz: Like you know, that's probably not gonna happen, unless it's an extreme situation and that makes sense and all that kind of stuff.
[11:18] Liz: But I think, from the standpoint of just knowing how it's gonna impact somebody, it can it can understand what their performance might look Like or what kind of motivation they might need in order to perform Like those kind of things.
[11:30] Liz: I think it's it's much more what's behind it than what's actually like happening, you know.
[11:34] Liz: So I'm thinking like basic stages of grief.
[11:38] Liz: So like initially, you know, like your player, like the players are gone, so they might have a little like shock or like denial, right, like oh, they're not here anymore.
[11:47] Liz: Like it's kind of like our body is like Wait, what?
[11:50] Liz: Like that was like a part of my arm and now it's not here.
[11:54] Liz: I don't know what to do with that.
[11:55] Liz: Like it kind of, it kind of can feel that way a little bit, um, and then, and then we can Move into like and these are not linear, by the way, these are like circular, and so they can come up at any point, in any way, in any order, but we've got anger, and so anger can be a very like movement-oriented emotion, like we're gonna get things done.
[12:13] Liz: We're gonna.
[12:14] Liz: You know, I'm mad and frustrated and I'm pushing through, like you know, that kind of a situation, um, an anger can also help set boundaries, so that might come out.
[12:24] Liz: I mean, it could come out a myriad of ways, but it might come out with defensive behavior too, like you might, you might see more defenses come up.
[12:31] Liz: Like I don't want to, you know, I don't know what that looks like, but like I don't want to be here, or like I you know I'm mad at the whole world like I are mad at themselves.
[12:41] Liz: Like I don't know if I can do this, I suck.
[12:44] Liz: Like you know, you might see things like maybe the downward mental spiral a little bit in that, but it's really like that anger needing to come up and out.
[12:52] Liz: That'd be a great time to move the body and get something moving through.
[12:57] Liz: And then typically also bargaining can happen, like oh only I would have done this, then this wouldn't have happened.
[13:01] Liz: Or, you know, there's all that like magical thinking of if I only knew what I didn't know, or if I only you know XYZ.
[13:09] Liz: That can come up and that's really a protective thing too right, because it's our brain trying to process this loss that shouldn't have happened.
[13:16] Liz: And then we go.
[13:17] Liz: Then we can go into like a depression.
[13:18] Liz: When that doesn't work it's like, oh, we kind of go into this depressive state of like, just kind of like things might not feel as good, I might not feel as like energetic, or maybe not want to eat the same things, or stuff doesn't bring us the same joy.
[13:31] Liz: We're not happy, like oh, that's funny, but I don't feel it.
[13:36] Liz: A little disconnection there from the positive, which is also normal, and it doesn't mean that someone is clinically depressed.
[13:42] Liz: It can just mean you're going through a state of that depression as you're Grieving and mourning again losing a part of your arm, and then typically we can come at some point over time to like that acceptance and that acceptance is really where you know it doesn't mean you're still not going to feel the anger, the shock that I wish they were here.
[14:02] Liz: I wish this was different, but it's going to be that there's a there's a Peace to it, almost like, oh, I've accepted this is what it is.
[14:09] Liz: I have alignment within myself that I know this is what happened and these feelings are still going to be there, but I'm tracking with it as it is.
[14:19] Liz: Um, does that all make sense?
[14:24] Ben: Absolutely, and you know that was that was actually going to be.
[14:27] Ben: My next question was can we kind of go through Sort of the the basic stages of of what that's going to look like?
[14:32] Ben: And you know, from a, from a coaching perspective, I think that's, I think that's difficult because, you know, even even within the same practice we had, we had some players that were just depressed and sad and we had other players that were pissed, and you know, we had some players that the the bargaining that had I only done this, maybe it would be different.
[14:56] Ben: You know, we, we weren't really getting into the experience, we weren't really getting into the acceptance phase yet, except for, you know, maybe some of the kids that you know didn't even know those guys.
[15:10] Ben: But you know, how do you, how do you then, in in the middle of a practice, deal with kids?
[15:18] Ben: Like you know, on one hand, over here You've got this kid that just, I mean, he's just bummed to even be out there and you're just trying to get him to go hard so he doesn't get hurt, versus, you know, maybe, an attackling drill against this kid who's got the most anger and rage that he's ever felt and he wants to go Take somebody's head off like that.
[15:38] Ben: How do you balance that between you know, because as coaches, we're we're not just dealing with this, this stuff inside of ourselves, but we're dealing with a whole bunch of players that are interacting with each other, that are then also feeling.
[15:51] Ben: All of these.
[15:52] Liz: Yeah, absolutely that, absolutely, because people are.
[15:56] Liz: I think you bring up a really good point.
[15:58] Liz: I mean, people are different places with that grief and it looks different and it will process through differently.
[16:03] Liz: So, like different time frames, I think, yes, absolutely.
[16:07] Liz: Um, you know, and I think this is where I I know this is a conversation, but I throw it back of like there's probably different leadership styles that people take on this and so I don't want to like speak to.
[16:19] Liz: You know I can't speak to all that because we're not in a group room with everybody, but I do feel when you're talking about this, I just think, the basic tenets of can you address what's happening Like and what does that look like in your leadership style?
[16:32] Liz: Because if we hide, avoid, if we do that, especially with kids and teens, what we know developmentally, they internalize it as sometimes like shame or there's something wrong with them and we don't want that to happen.
[16:44] Liz: So, speaking about it, saying it is actually a good thing and it showed, like it gives them a container to be like oh, I'm okay, like this is, this is a normal thing, like, and really a lot of times that's kids, teens, are pretty resilient, like, and so a lot of times that's all they need.
[17:01] Liz: Is that like, it's what we call like a secure base.
[17:03] Liz: They need like a container with a secure person that can name the thing.
[17:08] Liz: And yeah, maybe we need to move on now at this point and we have some direction, but we can circle back to it after practice at team meeting.
[17:14] Liz: Maybe assistant coach pulls one over like you know that kind of the thing.
[17:18] Liz: I think there's a dynamic load to naming it and holding that space to just say here's some direction to it and I know this is what's happening.
[17:25] Liz: We're not going to ignore it right now.
[17:27] Liz: Here's what we need to go do.
[17:28] Liz: Does that make sense?
[17:30] Ben: Yeah, absolutely, and I mean, you know, kind of kind of even gets back to that's just, that's coaching in a nutshell, right, like if you're really, if you're really going to get the best out of your athletes, you have to get to know them and know what drives them and know what, what hold you know, what fears hold them back.
[17:48] Ben: Is that, you know, I need to feel like I can do this, is it?
[17:52] Ben: I need to mentally understand what I'm doing so I'm not overthinking.
[17:56] Ben: So I mean that that makes complete sense and I and I really like what you said about Having that kind of secure base and then, okay, now it's time to move forward.
[18:08] Ben: But we can circle back and we can come back to that.
[18:11] Ben: Um, I, I love that you know.
[18:14] Ben: But before we started talking today, you briefly just mentioned, you know, the, the different types of loss and the different types of grief.
[18:21] Ben: They're they're similar, but you know they have their own uniqueness to them as well.
[18:27] Ben: Um, let's, let's shift if, if you don't mind, to you know, helping this athlete who you know.
[18:34] Ben: We're in the middle of the season and now ACL, mcl, whatever, fill in the blank, with whatever injury, they now have the rest of that season pulled out from underneath them.
[18:47] Ben: Um, where do you?
[18:49] Ben: I mean, where do you even begin?
[18:51] Ben: Because I'm sure we have coaches that are, you know, getting ready.
[18:54] Ben: Maybe they're listening to this podcast on the drive over to the hospital to go see this kid who just blew out his knee in practice, like, what do we?
[19:02] Ben: What do we do?
[19:03] Ben: Where do we start?
[19:06] Liz: Yes, oh, I like feel that too.
[19:09] Liz: It's like we can all it's awful yeah.
[19:12] Liz: Oh, like, ow, yeah, um, and you know what, actually, that's a good starting point is empathy.
[19:18] Liz: I think, like you know, allowing, and here's the thing, empathy and I guess you know breaking this down, it doesn't have to look like it's not coddling, right, it's not like, oh, you know, I don't know you poor, poor thing, let's like, you know there isn't there.
[19:32] Liz: There can get a wrap to some of that sometimes.
[19:34] Liz: And I think empathy is just Only like knowing our own experiences to be able to put ourselves in their shoes, right.
[19:41] Liz: So, like, I think number one if you're going to ask integration points on this is like For for coaches to like gather their own empathy space there.
[19:48] Liz: I'm like, because they've done this forever.
[19:50] Liz: Like you know, you guys know, thing, we've had injuries, sports world, like stuff comes up over and over again, nothing's new, right in a lot of ways, and so it's um, I think one is just like tapping into that, like this isn't just, you know, a goal to be fixed.
[20:05] Liz: This is a human, like you said, that has an injury.
[20:08] Liz: So we're gonna pull up a little bit of the empathy, like, ah, that sucks, right.
[20:11] Liz: Like this is not fun, this sucks.
[20:14] Liz: And I know, at the same time.
[20:15] Liz: You all have strategies and planning and caring for the team and wanting to win games and figure it all out and build programs, so I think that can really humanize.
[20:24] Liz: The thing, though, is like one just pulling into our own felt experience and that pulls us out of our head.
[20:29] Liz: So, again, that could be uncomfy sometimes, but I think it's necessary for that connection and sometimes that like that connection is what helps motivate the player to be like oh yeah, like I'm gonna be okay and I can get through this and do what they need to do to get better.
[20:45] Liz: So I think there is an element like we find so much research.
[20:48] Liz: That connection is so important.
[20:51] Liz: So, again, it doesn't have to look like a five hour counseling session or a like you know we're sitting there in this emotion for hours Like it can just be a felt sense and like and I see you kind of a moment.
[21:03] Liz: So that's one.
[21:05] Liz: I think that's really important.
[21:07] Liz: But beyond that, when you talk about types of grief and like, what do we do with that?
[21:11] Liz: So when, like, when someone dies and they pass, you know that is there's a even though there might not be closure in the relationship, which is something that is processed and dealt with at a deep level.
[21:24] Liz: That person is gone, right, and so there is a.
[21:27] Liz: That's a, that is a unique space where it holds its own grief and own space to that, and that is the process we've talked about.
[21:35] Liz: That's, you know, unique to each person and I don't want to compare because nothing is better or worse.
[21:40] Liz: That's not how grief works.
[21:42] Liz: We don't want to compare.
[21:43] Liz: But there are different.
[21:45] Liz: There's a different type called ambiguous loss, and I'd say that type is more when, let's say, the person is still here but they're not on the team, or I'm still here and able to do things, but I have this injury, and so now I've lost.
[21:58] Liz: What a season.
[21:59] Liz: I've lost a little bit of my identity for a little bit right.
[22:03] Liz: Like if you're a teen and you're playing football and it's like darn it, like you know.
[22:07] Liz: So I think there's there are those losses or relationship or camaraderie, you know, or whatever.
[22:13] Liz: That is a loss of a year of high school, you know, in some ways, and I think that ambiguous loss is something that we can have and it's not tangible, Like it's like out there, but it's not like able to be made tangible and so we can feel like, well, what do we do with that?
[22:29] Liz: Is it a loss?
[22:30] Liz: We can dismiss it.
[22:31] Liz: You know like kind of work our way around that, as opposed to just make like naming it and trying to find some ways to provide, you know, some closure to that or some acknowledgement so we can then grieve it and move through it.
[22:45] Ben: So, you know, another topic that we had briefly talked about, you know, beforehand, was this you know kind of the idea of transitions.
[22:52] Ben: You know COVID is the obvious, you know crazy, jarring event that we all went through collectively, you know.
[23:01] Ben: But even like the end of a season, you know we lose the best quarterback receiver in school history.
[23:08] Ben: Well now, what are we gonna do?
[23:10] Ben: Or you know this, the softball player who's been the starting pitcher for the last four years is no longer a part of our program.
[23:18] Ben: Or, you know, I make the jump from this small little private middle school up to this giant high school.
[23:24] Ben: Or these transition events that you know, as you said, are jarring.
[23:29] Ben: How do we deal with those?
[23:33] Liz: Yeah, yeah, I'm so glad we're talking about this because I really feel, like you know, that's something that we, as a practice, talked a lot about with COVID, because it was such a big transition that obviously we all were not anticipating but noticing how much grief that brought up for people Like and within ourselves, like within myself as well, but just noticing we seeing a pattern of that even, like, obviously outside of COVID, seeing like, oh, when, like you said, like when people aren't on the team anymore, oh, this season's down, or, oh, I'm graduating high school and I don't have right, like I don't have my same identity piece, like it really the transition piece, like all those examples you gave, they stir up our whole body because it's like we don't have the same consistency, the same rhythm, the you know what we're used to and so much in athletics is that rhythm and developing, like you know, this whole movement moving forward together and so when a piece leaves, that it's felt right and it's not just known and then, we strategize.
[24:35] Liz: That's true and also it's a felt sense.
[24:37] Liz: And so I really feel like that is one of those pieces.
[24:40] Liz: Again, I'm just giving process space.
[24:42] Liz: There aren't answers, there's process, right, like you've just got to acknowledge that the transition is gonna stir that up and allowing yourself to kind of go deeper with it a little bit, like, okay, is that bringing up some fear for me?
[24:53] Liz: Like am I afraid that?
[24:55] Liz: Like we're not gonna you know what I mean do whatever?
[24:57] Liz: Cause, it's just naming it and acknowledging that to kind of then have clarity.
[25:02] Liz: A lot of times when we move through transition we do differently.
[25:05] Liz: Some people push through, some people shut down a little bit, and so we've got to kind of notice that in ourselves and kind of name what's happening.
[25:12] Liz: If we can track with it and just try to, you know, let ourselves acknowledge again what we're experiencing so we can move through it, and that again, that's just.
[25:20] Liz: That could be as simple as oh, like a little bit of panic because three star players left and I'm feeling the pressure, you know, whatever that is, it's just acknowledging it.
[25:29] Liz: And I'm gonna say again, I feel like when we've been talking accountability spaces of like having a couple close people to bounce things off of, especially in roles that it could be isolating and pressure filled, is super important.
[25:41] Ben: I love that you said we don't need answers or fixes, we need processes.
[25:45] Ben: Like to me, that feels reassuring on a topic that's completely overwhelming and very intimidating to me.
[25:54] Ben: I can do that Like.
[25:58] Ben: That gives me a little bit of comfort, knowing that you know our players, like you said, are resilient but they do need to be able to process stuff.
[26:06] Ben: You know, as a coaching staff, we got some pretty bad news about something that was going on and it was like everybody was sad and then everybody was pissed and then it was like, all right, we gotta, you know, we gotta work through this.
[26:22] Ben: And we were literally going to a meeting and it was like, all right, we've got like the walk over there to be pissed off, and then we gotta put our coach face on because they're gonna be looking at us and we gotta let them know like we're gonna make it through this.
[26:35] Ben: This is hard, this is tough, this sucks, but we've got a plan moving forward.
[26:40] Ben: So like we had to process ourselves.
[26:43] Ben: So to you know, to think that the players aren't gonna need that same time or that same you know, that same space to be able to yes, absolutely to be able to kind of process that and work through it on their own is ridiculous.
[26:59] Ben: So that's I'm really glad that you said that.
[27:03] Ben: I think that's a huge take home just from me from our conversation here, something that you know I can help athletes process through things that's way less intimidating than trying to fix them.
[27:15] Liz: Oh, I love that.
[27:17] Liz: Yes, you know what.
[27:18] Liz: And when you say that I didn't even think that, like again because I'm in a different land, I'm like oh well, I didn't think you would think you could fix them, like you know what I mean, like that would be something you felt like you had to do.
[27:31] Liz: What pressure that would be to have that.
[27:34] Liz: Yeah no, and even when you talk about like what do we do, it's like when you do that and you're in that process, like that's the ebb and flow of the both and right, like it's not a fixed thing, it's open and yeah, that's.
[27:47] Liz: You know, that's what you guys do every day, so that's so cool.
[27:49] Liz: I'm so glad that that came out.
[27:51] Liz: And what I think a good tell on that is when we feel like, oh crap, pressure, like pressure, like it's our responsibility to do something with it.
[27:59] Liz: It's that we can't Like we feel helpless.
[28:02] Ben: Right.
[28:03] Liz: That's a good tell of like oh, I'm trying to fix it and I can't OK.
[28:07] Liz: What space needs to happen here?
[28:09] Liz: What needs to just be acknowledged and let the process be.
[28:12] Ben: Yeah, because that's the opposite of my natural instinct.
[28:17] Ben: Like, my natural instinct as a football coach is oh, the defense did this, well, that's OK, we're going to do this.
[28:22] Ben: Oh well, this happened, that's OK, I'm going to fix it this way.
[28:25] Ben: Oh, you know, now we're down in the goal line, well, we're going to make these changes, we're going to make these adjustments.
[28:31] Ben: Like that's just how I'm constantly just trying to fix and solve and plan and so, yeah, and then kind of the next phase that you brought up briefly there, that I would like to dive into because, unfortunately, the reality of life you had already mentioned that you lost your father.
[28:57] Ben: I recently here, lost my uncle.
[28:59] Ben: We had a community member passed away.
[29:03] Ben: We've, you know, my brother's had in the past players that have passed away at his school, coaches that have passed away from his school.
[29:10] Ben: I mean, we all, unfortunately, are going to experience loss and you know, that's even kind of a whole nother level and I think brings with it its own just heart wrenching challenges.
[29:27] Ben: Because you know, again, take the situation that we were talking about before.
[29:32] Ben: You know, from a coaching perspective, it's different when you know a player moves away or you know a kid tears an ACL, or that player's not participating in the sport anymore.
[29:47] Ben: But you know, that's not that same gut wrenching feeling, you know.
[29:54] Ben: And then, just from you know my own personal experience, add in the whole the fact that it's gut wrenching to me.
[30:03] Ben: You know, in those other situations I feel like, well, it's okay, this happens all the time.
[30:08] Ben: Next man up, we've got to have our backups ready, we've got to have the next person in, but this is just a whole, nother animal.
[30:15] Ben: Where do you kind of begin with this one?
[30:22] Liz: Yeah, and with this one you're meeting when someone passes yes.
[30:27] Liz: Yeah, yeah, all the feels on these right?
[30:32] Liz: Yeah, I think you begin in the same spot, but it's recognizing and acknowledging.
[30:39] Liz: I have to talk about this because I think it's a really good tool, but it's a way to notice again what is happening in your body.
[30:50] Liz: If I could 100 percent just say if you pay attention to your body, it's going to tell you what's going on, for example, our emotions there.
[31:00] Liz: If you feel like a tightness in your chest or in your throat or any of that, it could be some sadness or some fear that's coming up.
[31:07] Liz: If you feel that energy in your hands or you want to push off or go hit something, that's that anger coming up.
[31:14] Liz: Our body is actually whole discussed as in, if we're just so, by something that it makes us want to throw up.
[31:24] Liz: We all have had that experience with a food or a situation or whatever.
[31:28] Liz: It's literally.
[31:29] Liz: I think a lot of this, especially in athletic world.
[31:32] Liz: People do pay attention to their bodies, but we also don't.
[31:35] Ben: Yeah, and we're taught to ignore pain and push through pain a lot of times, and there's a gold medal awarded if you're tough enough to be able to overcome.
[31:46] Ben: Your finger was dislocated, but you just popped it back in and play the next play.
[31:51] Liz: Yes, exactly, and I want to say I think there is some really good stuff.
[32:00] Liz: It's a both and there's some really good stuff to having an ability to have that resilience.
[32:04] Liz: Like resilience is a skill that we need and there are times and places for things.
[32:10] Liz: So when we don't have that same thing, or when we're like, oh, we can't access or it's not the time for it, like this isn't the time to push, this is the time to pause, and those are those really wise bits for leaders to see.
[32:23] Liz: And maybe that's a timing thing too, because they're just times where you can't push through and you don't need to.
[32:29] Liz: That's actually going to be worse, and so I think there is that element.
[32:34] Liz: But when you ask what to do in those situations, I mean I think it's the same stuff of like you pause and you've got to notice where you're at.
[32:41] Liz: Like if there's dissociation can happen, and when major grief happens like that or like tragic, traumatic grief, so there's also grief right, like I lose someone and it's very hard very hard and let's say we got closure or we had a relationship.
[33:00] Liz: You know, I knew it was coming and that doesn't make it easy.
[33:03] Liz: But there isn't the like trauma bit necessarily all the time around it.
[33:06] Liz: When something happens suddenly or like there's a trauma that happens with it, it's traumatic grief.
[33:11] Liz: So now we've got all this electric energy around all that process.
[33:15] Liz: So what happens is is our brain is like guess what?
[33:19] Liz: Nope, not, we can't process this, so I'm kicking it down into the body and that's where we get all of those like people might start to have shallow breathing or have a little panickiness or trouble sleeping or you know all that kind of stuff.
[33:32] Liz: And so the first step I think we want to do is like track with ourselves and acknowledge again like I'm not okay right now, like what do I need?
[33:39] Liz: And resource that.
[33:40] Liz: So going to counseling, talking with someone to be on your own journey, like it's a total, individual journey and it's not meant to be compared, and then finding a group of people or safe people you can talk to about it.
[33:55] Liz: That is so important because whenever we're isolated, like grief is meant to be, like it's meant to be seen, because we need other people to support us Like it is not an isolated event that our Western culture doesn't know what to do with.
[34:10] Liz: A lot of times it's like other countries people wear black and then people know they're grieving and they're seen in it Like we need that seenness in order to not feel all the shame and really like buckle up, buck down and push through, which is not always helpful.
[34:26] Liz: So, again, there's a both and there, but I also think that there are, like support places like griefshare.
[34:32] Liz: Griefcom has a lot of good things.
[34:35] Liz: There's a lot of resources I can share another time, but as a whole, like with those people you're with if you like break it down the best thing you can do is just be with them.
[34:45] Liz: Right, like you don't have to hide it or name it or say it didn't happen.
[34:50] Liz: Like just ask them how are you doing?
[34:51] Liz: Like do you need anything?
[34:53] Liz: Or just show up and be there and sit with them.
[34:56] Liz: If they cry, they cry, you don't have to fix anything.
[34:59] Liz: Like there's nothing to be fixed.
[35:01] Liz: Right, like it's going to be a lot of those feelings that need to come up and out of the body.
[35:06] Liz: And when we allow, when we have safe space, that secure space, then it can come up and out.
[35:11] Liz: So I just think it's so important to just be a person like realistically, that you're just like hey, I know that I want to show up for them and so I'm going to do that Like I'm not going to be, like, oh, if I mention it then maybe it won't.
[35:24] Liz: Like just ask them and they can tell you.
[35:26] Liz: And it's not rejection If they don't want to talk, it's just they feel seen and know.
[35:29] Liz: Right, like so allowing that space just to be seen, to name things and to really pay attention to our bodies and not push through something that needs to be felt and dealt with, which is hard, this is hard.
[35:42] Liz: This is not easy.
[35:44] Ben: Yeah, absolutely.
[35:45] Ben: I want to go back to something that you said it's not meant to be compared, because that's something that you know.
[35:53] Ben: That was something that in my own kind of personal struggle with anxiety, it was like my life isn't that hard, I should be able to handle this.
[36:02] Ben: You know, I want to go back to that and I want to touch on that and just have you speak to that a little bit.
[36:09] Ben: You know, because there are going to be, there are going to be players who you know Tarenacell and now are grieving the loss of this season, but it's like, well, nobody died, I should be fine.
[36:23] Ben: There are going to be, you know, teams that lose somebody that maybe compare Well, you know this team lost three people.
[36:31] Ben: Or you know even a God forbid a parent loses a child and then it's like, well, but you know, this person over here lost their entire family.
[36:40] Ben: Like we can't help but compare ourselves to others.
[36:44] Ben: And I know, in my own journey on the mental health side not necessarily the grief side, you know I experienced that and it delayed my willingness to, one, to go get help and two, to be able to work through that and heal because, like you said, I wasn't naming that you know talk to us a little bit about, maybe the listeners out there that are dealing with, or are struggling with, that comparison.
[37:14] Liz: Yeah, Okay, I took a few notes here because there's like three parts to this.
[37:18] Liz: I'm like this is good.
[37:19] Liz: Yes, this is a huge one, and I think especially with teens and especially with sports, this is like huge.
[37:28] Liz: So a couple of things like when you're talking and I mean I do the same thing, we all have this like I can't.
[37:34] Liz: I can't view this as not like from a counseling perspective.
[37:37] Liz: So it's like when those things come up, like well, I don't like, why am I upset?
[37:41] Liz: I have a great life, or oh, I don't have it as bad as XYZ.
[37:45] Liz: My first question in that, and even for myself when I do this, is like how is that serving me right now?
[37:51] Liz: Like so, for example, you know, our brain, our brain, comes up with these ways to protect us.
[37:58] Liz: So, like you know, and if we're like at a high level, we're competing, like we are, we're in protection mode a lot of the time because we're like trying to reach a goal together and we don't have a lot of like room for all the soft stuff that's going to come up.
[38:12] Liz: There's a lot of protection that's coming in there, and so I think that one of those pieces is acknowledging like where did I learn this from Like or like when you notice I could do that, like you can kind of see, like you know, generationally, how that passes down, or in our own family systems, or just like a way that we've learned how to like push through something.
[38:30] Liz: And I think that's a really good point of asking myself like how is this serving me?
[38:35] Liz: Because the things that served us once don't always serve us anymore, and we get as adults especially coaching and all that we get to kind of decide okay, like when this comes up for me or I notice this over here, you know, is that actually going to work out?
[38:48] Liz: Is that working for me right now?
[38:50] Liz: And so I think that's one piece that can come up with.
[38:53] Liz: It is just noticing, like, what defenses we have, and that doesn't mean we're a defensive person, it just means like that is a way that my brain is trying to protect me from feeling my feelings straight up, and we do that because we feel like we need to.
[39:07] Liz: So why do I feel like I need to protect myself from just feeling this or acknowledging it or naming it?
[39:14] Liz: So that might be a good first like question or first space for that.
[39:18] Liz: But the other part, when you're talking through like comparison and like all these pieces.
[39:22] Liz: I think comparison I know in my own life and I'm sure you know people listening could think about their own lives like it brings up shame.
[39:31] Liz: It's like oh, like better than or not good enough, or oh that you know all that kind of stuff.
[39:37] Liz: And so I again I feel like that's not really getting to like where I'm at or what I, what I need, what I'm feeling like, how I want to perform, how I want to show up, those kind of things and it really pulls us out of that.
[39:51] Liz: So I see that as really another form of like protection, Right, Like it's like we make we measure up, like are we as good as or are we better than?
[40:00] Liz: And it's our safety thing.
[40:02] Liz: So a lot of times it's just good to acknowledge like okay where am I at?
[40:05] Liz: what am I doing?
[40:06] Liz: What do I need?
[40:07] Liz: And like, with the grief cycle especially, you know everyone's going to be in different places.
[40:13] Liz: So it's really like paying attention to ourselves and being able to hold both.
[40:17] Liz: Like okay, there are people in other parts of the world that have very much less than I have and right now, if I don't acknowledge myself, I'm not going to really grow as a human Right.
[40:28] Liz: Like I've got to acknowledge I'm sad, I'm upset and I have my own experiences that need to be validated here.
[40:34] Liz: And so, like, we've got to hold both, like the both, and I think is probably one of the most mature, dynamic spaces.
[40:43] Liz: It's very simple but also very hard to do.
[40:44] Liz: So I would say, with comparison with grief, with all of that, there are so many both ends.
[40:50] Liz: It's not like either or it's not like you know, it's like both and like I can play and I'm pissed.
[40:56] Liz: I can play and I'm sad.
[40:58] Liz: It's not like this happened, I'm out forever.
[41:00] Liz: You know, like that extreme black and white thinking, like that can get in the way of like holding, just like where we're actually at and it's trying to protect us.
[41:08] Liz: So really helping people see that and then noticing it ourselves is really important.
[41:13] Ben: The.
[41:14] Ben: I want to go back to a quote that you just said.
[41:16] Ben: We don't have room for the soft stuff, because, you know, I find myself coaching and you know football, I would say, traditionally has one of those, one of those cultures where it's like that that stuff is the soft stuff.
[41:33] Ben: How do we, how do we as coaches, you know, maybe maybe deal with the coach, or maybe get the coach on board, or I don't know, like the coach that is real tough and gruff and or maybe is from an older generation who dealt with mental health very differently and it was like oh, you're going to therapy, well, what's wrong with you, you psycho?
[41:58] Ben: How do we either a get them on board or be, you know, I don't know, maybe we're, maybe we're never going to get them on board, but we want to have them at least.
[42:10] Ben: Not do more harm than good, like what?
[42:12] Ben: Where do?
[42:13] Ben: Where do we begin with that?
[42:17] Liz: Yeah Well, we've got another book question.
[42:20] Liz: My first thought was um, my first thought was how about you get out a bunch of Renee Brown books?
[42:27] Liz: Because all of her research is on the power of vulnerability.
[42:31] Liz: So I think it's interesting.
[42:33] Liz: And here's the tricky part like you can't change anyone and no one's just.
[42:37] Liz: You know everyone has to want to do that.
[42:39] Liz: But we've seen so much that when we show up authentically or we have vulnerability, that that's actually a strength, because it's our own power.
[42:47] Liz: And I think that dynamic, the power dynamic, that's really what we can get at right in some of these spaces, especially in a sports dynamic.
[42:56] Liz: Like, in essence, if we're not able to own ourself, we are giving power to other people.
[43:01] Liz: That's what's happening.
[43:02] Liz: So, even as a team, as a unit, as a player, as a coach, like being able to acknowledge that when we run into that, I think it's interesting because for me, I see that as insecurity and I see that as a lack of knowing, like maybe what they're feeling because they didn't know.
[43:18] Liz: Like it's not shame on anybody, like people grew up in different generations and different spaces and my gosh, like I mean I'm, I'm 38, so that's pretty young, but not right.
[43:27] Liz: Like I'm in that like I'm old now but I'm not, and so I'm like, like even in my like I feel younger and when I was in high school people didn't talk about their feelings.
[43:35] Liz: So like it's just really blown up in the past, like 10 ish plus years, and you know my parents, my grandparents and you just see the generations and how people handle it.
[43:44] Liz: But a lot of that, I think, is relationship building and modeling and being ourselves, being authentic, because the reality is all that shame and all that insecurity even within ourselves, like it can't exist in the presence of connection.
[43:57] Liz: So when we're connected, that changes things, and so I think that's really a heart space and a and a mind space of like how to grow and heal and move forward, which is the essence of what coaches do, like you guys are constantly building connections.
[44:14] Ben: Right, and I will say this is.
[44:16] Ben: This is probably not one of my prouder moments as a, as a human that works in the mental health profession and helping athletes perform at a higher level, but like I came home from a therapy session and you know you said, hey, brown, I just reached back and pulled out you know, this book, atlas of the Heart.
[44:34] Ben: You know and and everything that we know through through brain imaging, through neuroscience, through you know, functional MRI scans, like we can watch emotion happen, that this isn't just something, that it's like you know let's sit around and sing kumbaya and everybody be happy with being mediocre and we're all going to accept ourselves.
[44:55] Ben: Like I remember coming home from therapy one time and like having a conversation with my wife and feeling like you know all these emotions that you feel and that you're dealing with, like you're not crazy, it turns out.
[45:10] Ben: I just am really bad at identifying them in my own life, which you know that's.
[45:16] Ben: That's a whole, another separate podcast, but it's like that's.
[45:20] Ben: It took, it was difficult and it took work and it took time for me to even I mean one to be able to say and admit yes, this, this is something that I'm, that I'm weak in that I need to get better at, but then to put in the time to actually pay attention to it and try to improve in it, and I think that there is a lot of value in bringing up the science behind it and I'm glad that you, I'm glad that you touched on that.
[45:51] Ben: Are there any you know?
[45:53] Ben: But before we, before we start to wrap up a little bit, are there any other you know science titbits out there that you know, maybe for the coaches, that this is kind of new to them.
[46:05] Ben: This is uncomfy, as you said this, this isn't something that we're naturally good at.
[46:11] Ben: Are there?
[46:12] Ben: Are there any other?
[46:13] Ben: Any other books, podcast resources you know?
[46:17] Ben: Studies that it would be good for you know, for us to dive into?
[46:23] Liz: yes, I think so.
[46:25] Liz: On the neuroscience, I'm like the author is leaving my literal brain as we talk.
[46:30] Liz: I'm like, oh, what's their name?
[46:32] Liz: It might come to me at the end.
[46:33] Liz: But yeah, I'm so glad to wrap up out of the heart.
[46:37] Liz: I think any of and obviously you know you can skim through stuff to or like pick it, like pick through my brown work is awesome.
[46:43] Liz: But when you talk about body scans, that's who I'm trying to think of and so I might have to get back to you on that one.
[46:49] Liz: But we've learned that there's actual circuits like in the body, that like our kind of emotional circuits that run through, and so I think that whole thing, like you're saying, with the imaging, it just gives tangible.
[47:01] Liz: It gives something tangible to this like intuitive experience that we're having.
[47:05] Liz: That like isn't seen right.
[47:07] Liz: So it's like actually seeing that on scans is so interesting and helpful.
[47:13] Liz: I think there's a couple of good books that I would recommend and a couple podcasts, for sure, and both of these go into more of that.
[47:20] Liz: So if you want to learn more about body and emotions and kind of the function and what all that looks like, the change triangle is called it's not always depression and that really shows a map of how how our body works with arm with emotions and how to navigate it like what do I do with it?
[47:38] Liz: Very practical, very, very good.
[47:40] Liz: So again, it's not always depression, it's not literally Jacob's handle, and then the body keeps.
[47:46] Liz: The score is going to be a book by vessel, vessel, vessel, vandal car, and it's a book about how our emotions like like live in our body and what that looks like war vets, like, all the way through things, and so it's actually a little bit of a harder read and it's going to bring up maybe like there's some trauma stories in there.
[48:08] Liz: So, just side note, it might be a little triggering.
[48:10] Liz: It's, it's heavy, but that's another resource and he's an author and someone that you could look into.
[48:16] Liz: David Kessler lost his son and he wrote.
[48:19] Liz: He and Elizabeth Kubler Ross have wrote two books on grief and grieving and then the sixth stage of grief he wrote one on is called Finding Meaning, and so that's, even after that acceptance, like finding that meaning and hope and kind of what do we do with that?
[48:36] Liz: How do we let their legacy and who they are live on?
[48:39] Liz: I think he's a really good resource and this book is also very good.
[48:43] Liz: And then griefcom is like a one-stop shop for any resource.
[48:49] Liz: You're kind of looking for grief, share groups and then the owner of Pathways, and this is not.
[48:54] Liz: This is just because I think it's a phenomenal podcast.
[48:57] Liz: It's called Close the Chapter and she has.
[48:59] Liz: So, if you look, there's so many different guests on on these kinds of things from neuroscience to grief to raising kids, anything right Like all of this stuff, and so I would also recommend kind of checking out that podcast.
[49:13] Ben: As we, as we kind of wrap up here, what's, what are maybe some ways that coaches, because, you know, a lot of times we're so focused on our team, on our assistant coaches, on our, you know, taking care of other people that we don't take the time to take care of ourselves.
[49:30] Ben: What, what are some ways that you know, as, as we're helping our athletes and our coaches and our program and even our community through these seasons of loss, what are some things that we need to make sure stay on the forefront of our, of our radar, taking care of ourselves.
[49:50] Liz: I love this question for you.
[49:51] Liz: Yes, I think even even noticing the question and like paying attention is huge.
[49:57] Liz: I feel, like I feel like we all get into our professions for reasons you know, like I'm accounts, I got into it for a reason you know.
[50:03] Liz: And and hearing you say that it's like you know all the all that you guys pour out, like because I know, you know you can be you mentioned earlier like the soft stuff, you know we don't have room for that, but really you are pouring out so much of yourselves into all these athletes in the community and then trying to move things forward and it's a lot there can be a lot of pressure, a lot of time, so much energy, so much sacrifice, like from family, like I mean you guys give so, so, so, so much.
[50:33] Liz: And I think that you know, as you even say that question out loud I just, I think it's really important to practice what you like, to practice this stuff yourself and acknowledge that you need it, like that you have a need, like I have a need we all have needs and just acknowledging like oh, like not forgetting about ourselves in that process, so like I have a need and what can I do with that?
[50:57] Liz: Like who, who can I talk to get a couple of like close people, like especially, like I mean, we've talked about this, we haven't talked about this here.
[51:03] Liz: But like socialization, like typically men and men in like different generations don't share these things.
[51:08] Liz: So like there's research on all this stuff.
[51:10] Liz: I want to stereotype, but I think there is research and cultural stuff to back that up.
[51:15] Liz: And so having some like accountability people too, like someone you know you can just call up and be like hey, man, like it was a rough day, like I'm feeling a little something or like whatever, and just have someone you know can listen, and maybe that's a coach group.
[51:26] Liz: Maybe that's just one person, also a spouse, but we don't put that all on them.
[51:30] Liz: You know we've got to have a little mix there.
[51:33] Liz: So I would really recommend knowing like you have the need.
[51:35] Liz: You need a little bit of support and accountability to that, because your life is going to go.
[51:38] Liz: You know you're coaching, you got a lot going on and just even that acknowledgement that the same care that you're going to give to those kids, like you also need, like we all need that, and it doesn't exempt us Like we're not, like you know, out there just being like superheroes because we're helping people.
[51:55] Liz: It's like if we do that, we're disconnected and we're not really going to be able to show up and we're going to burn out.
[52:00] Liz: So allowing yourself to notice like oh, if I'm giving this out there, like I need to also have it, because in allowing yourself to see that that's, I think, huge, if you can do that, then you're going to show up, because it's kind of how we're wired, you know.
[52:13] Ben: Yeah, for sure.
[52:14] Ben: Well, Liz, this has been a fantastic conversation, so much you know.
[52:20] Ben: It's such a heavy topic that we're, that we're trudging through.
[52:25] Ben: So, just from bottom of my heart, thank you for taking the time to come on here today and just share some of your share, some of your knowledge and some of your experience.
[52:35] Liz: Thank you so much for having me yeah.

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