# #297: What it's really like working with family

An episode of [A Beautiful Mess Podcast](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1485472892), 27 Apr 2026, 50 min.

Audio: https://mgln.ai/e/498/pscrb.fm/rss/p/traffic.libsyn.com/secure/abmpodcast/ABM_EP297_Final.mp3?dest-id=1624655

This week we're getting honest about what it's really like working with family. We've been working together since our early 20s and people always ask how we do it so today we're spilling the tea. We're also discussing what we're reading and a hot take about long vs short books. Thank you to this week's sponsor: Use code \[MESS\] to get up to 57% Off at Firstday.com Biggest Pro: Time spent together Biggest con: More risk to the relationship Book Report: Elsie: Lincoln in The Bardo by George Saunders Emma: Lights Out By Navessa Allen You can support us by leaving us a couple of 5 star recipe reviews this week at abeautifulmess.com Have a topic idea for the podcast? Write in to us at podcast@abeautifulmess.com or leave us a voicemail at 417-893-0011.

## Transcript

[0:00] Elsie
[0:01] You're listening to the A Beautiful Mess podcast, your cozy comfort listen. I'm your host, Elsie Larson.
[0:02] Emma
[0:03] And I'm your host, Emma Chapman.
[0:04] Elsie
[0:05] This week, we're getting honest about what it's really like working with family. We're sisters who have
[0:06] been working together for almost 20 years, and people always ask us how we do it. So today we're
[0:07] spilling the tea. We're also discussing what we're reading, and a hot take about long versus short
[0:08] books. Oh yeah, I love that. I'm excited. Okay, before we jump in, I want to talk about how our book
[0:09] movie club is finally happening, because I know we've discussed this on the podcast previously, and we
[0:10] just we love our book movie club idea, and we pitched it to our real life book club, and they took it.
[0:11] Emma
[0:12] They were like, we're in. Why not? Yes? I think some people were like, yes, yes, yes, and some people
[0:13] were like, Sure.
[0:14] Elsie
[0:15] So we made this little punch card of all the books, and Emma and I have already read all the books,
[0:16] which kind of sucks, but I'm going to add the Odyssey nerds of the group, but I've only watched one of
[0:17] the movies because most of the movies haven't come out yet. So that is very exciting. There's a lot of
[0:18] adaptations happening this year, or coming out this year, in 2026 so it had project Hail Mary, remarkably
[0:19] bright creatures, Clara and the sun. We put the idea of you, that movie's from a while ago, but I can't
[0:20] not put it. I love it. Verity, Verity, Verity. I think I'm really excited to see the movie. I love hearing people's
[0:21] takes on the book, because it's always a journey. Oh yeah, yeah. So yeah, that is happening. I put the
[0:22] punch card in my newsletter. It is on, if you want a copy of it, it's on LC, larson.com, in my most recent
[0:23] newsletter, you can download it from my Canva link for free. For fun, print them for your friends. I'm
[0:24] carrying them in my purse and handing them out like it's my full time job. So this is why I was put on this
[0:25] earth, I finally know and I can fulfill my destiny.
[0:26] Emma
[0:27] And it has. If you read all the books, it's like you got a personal pan pizza. You do have to buy your own
[0:28] personal pan pizza. Who cares? But just do it. It's so much fun, don't we all remember book it.
[0:29] Elsie
[0:30] The personal pan pizza was my favorite touch, because if you are a millennial American woman or
[0:31] man, maybe you grew up earning these pizzas, uh huh, in your classroom. And, like, we had this like,
[0:32] special chair, like a bean bag chair in the corner, where you got to sit when you ate it. It was a whole
[0:33] thing, and very special. And, yeah, I think that you should always reward yourself for reading. My
[0:34] children do the library summer reading, and they get, like, cupcakes and stuff. And I just think it's, it's
[0:35] very joyful, and I know they'll remember it forever.
[0:36] Emma
[0:37] It's so fun, so but, yeah, just caveat, you do have to buy your own we're not buying it for you, but just do
[0:38] it anyway, because it's so cool.
[0:39] Elsie
[0:40] Yeah, it's good. Okay, so this week we're talking about working with family. I think this episode is going
[0:41] to be a little more on our the messy and vulnerable end of our spectrum, but I think that's also what
[0:42] makes it interesting. So we pre discussed, we're gonna, we're gonna spill the hot tea, not just the cold
[0:43] tea.
[0:44] Emma
[0:45] I mean, some of it's cold and that it happened years ago.
[0:46] Elsie
[0:47] Oh, it's cold, yeah, but it's, but it's like we're in a good place, and I think that's you should always share
[0:48] your yeah story fight right now. Let's go record our podcast. No, thanks, yeah, yeah, and I don't fight
[0:49] that much, but when we do, the fights can get weird, so I think it'll be fun.
[0:50] Emma
[0:51] I don't know what you're talking about.
[0:52] Elsie
[0:53] Okay, no, she does have the self erasing memory that I do have.
[0:54] Emma
[0:55] That's a real thing. I don't know. I don't know. Yeah, something's wrong with me.
[0:56] Elsie
[0:57] Okay, so pros and cons of working together with family, so I think the biggest pro, I think I've thought
[0:58] about this a lot as sort of our blogger era has sort of been coming to a close, I do think we're going to
[0:59] continue working together. We have plans for a future business, still a surprise, that we're hoping to
[1:00] launch in the next few years. Yeah, we've blogged together since we were in our early 20s, and during
[1:01] that time we spent hundreds of hours together that we wouldn't have spent, I mean, because it's really
[1:02] probably hundreds of 1000s, because for a lot of that time, we were working together in person, 40
[1:03] hours a week. You know what I mean? The math is math thing like, that's a lot of time that we spent
[1:04] together that if we would have been normal sisters who had separate careers, we wouldn't have had it
[1:05] was definitely too much at certain times. That's why we had the separate hotel room rule, which we'll
[1:06] discuss. And then, yeah, dozens of work trips, which, when you take a work trip with your colleague
[1:07] who's also your sister, it does end up being a sister trip, too. Because you do your work, whatever
[1:08] you're there to do, and then you get to go to Shake Shack, or you get to, you know, walk to a cute
[1:09] boutique. Or, you know, there's just, there's always that little bit of free time in there, like we've all, we've
[1:10] been to the cute bookstores all over the entire country during our travel time. So, yeah, I think that's the
[1:11] biggest pro that I think of like a reason why it's valuable to work with your family is that you just get so
[1:12] much time together that you wouldn't normally like it wouldn't be possible.
[1:13] Emma
[1:14] Yeah, I'd say that's the biggest pro, I think, for us specifically too, we very much like complement each
[1:15] other's strengths and weaknesses in many ways. So that's like a big pro for us. So if you like have that
[1:16] dynamic with your family member who you're thinking about working with, and that would probably be a
[1:17] big pro too, you generally should try to work with people who complement you, not compete with you,
[1:18] right? If you both have the exact same strengths, that's not necessarily bringing more to the table. It's
[1:19] bringing the same thing. So it's better if you can kind of complement one another in some ways, and I
[1:20] think we do that. So, so that's good too.
[1:21] Elsie
[1:22] So I did the Pro, I think the biggest con, or the biggest downfall of working with your family, is that you
[1:23] bring a tremendous amount of risk into your personal relationship that you won't have control over. So
[1:24] you will have big fights if you work together. I've had a lot of big fights with Emma through the years.
[1:25] One of them, like I specifically remember there was this fight we had very, very early. It was more than
[1:26] 10 years ago where I said I regretted ever partnering with her, which is the meanest thing I think I've
[1:27] ever said to anyone. It's meaner than anything I've ever said to my husband.
[1:28] Emma
[1:29] I don't remember this at all.
[1:30] Elsie
[1:31] I know I've apologized for it, probably like every year since, because it still bothers me that I said that
[1:32] and I and it's not true, but obviously, yeah, probably I forgot. But yeah, we have this, these big fights.
[1:33] The other thing where it got super weird is that there were some years in there where Emma's husband
[1:34] worked for us and I fought with him all the time, all and we had huge blow up fights with screaming and
[1:35] cursing and just like really, really not professional behavior. And she had to witness that.
[1:36] Emma
[1:37] I was kinda caught in the middle.
[1:38] Elsie
[1:39] Yeah, she had loyalties to both of us, obviously. And I, you know, hated that, right? It just was, it just
[1:40] wasn't really good for anyone. But, you know, there, there were some, like, professional things that we
[1:41] each brought to the table that were very advantageous. We built some things we were really proud of,
[1:42] but we did fight a lot along the way, and kind of the kind of most of the entire time that he worked for us.
[1:43] I personally fought with him so much, and now we never fight, yeah, now we never fight. But I do have
[1:44] a point for that. Too, permanent landmines in your relationship. So, so Trey and I specifically, we have
[1:45] permanent landmines in our relationship that I think might last our whole lives. There's just certain
[1:46] topics that we do not discuss anymore, ever again, and it sucks, like, honestly, like it's weird, but also
[1:47] it's okay, because we're both adults, and we're both willing to agree to these terms of our relationship,
[1:48] and we're both committed to being friends, and we're family, obviously too. We don't work together
[1:49] anymore, which is great. I think we both agree on that point, but yeah, like, there's a risk that you will
[1:50] you'll have fights where you'll say something you'll regret for the rest of your life. You will have these
[1:51] permanent landmines where there's, like, just certain topics that you can't bring up without starting an
[1:52] argument. Or the third one is you might have sad endings, and we've also had that in the 20 years
[1:53] almost that we've been working together, we have had to fire people, and also we've had to lay people
[1:54] off, and also we've had to end relationships that weren't working out. And all of those things are hard
[1:55] enough when it's a colleague, and they're much harder when it's a colleague who's also a family
[1:56] member. So I wouldn't recommend that part to my enemy, and I think you do have to know that when
[1:57] you go into it, like if you choose to work with a family member, like they always say in business, don't
[1:58] hire someone who you can't fire. That's very. Hard to do when you're choosing to work with family and
[1:59] friends.
[2:00] Emma
[2:01] Yeah. And I think what part of what has worked so well in our dynamic is before we started blogging
[2:02] together. So years before that, I worked for you, so I did like your shipping for your Etsy shop, and
[2:03] probably some other things. I really don't even remember everything, and I feel like that dynamic
[2:04] worked okay, but it wouldn't have worked long term, it kind of just like graded at both of us in different
[2:05] ways. And so I think part of what works for us, why it's worked so long term, is we're 5050, partners,
[2:06] and so it's more like a business marriage, where it's like, sure we could divorce, but there's no like,
[2:07] you're above me. I'm above you. Like, sure, we have areas where, like, I'm in charge of this, or you're in
[2:08] charge of this, but at the end of the day, we're partners, and we either continue on as partners, or we
[2:09] would end our partnership, and those are the only two options. There is no like, you fire me, I fire you.
[2:10] That's just not an option. Yeah. So I think that helps a lot. I'm not saying that that should be the only
[2:11] way that you work with family. I think there are situations where you might want to hire a family member
[2:12] or a family member hires you. I think those situations could work, but I just think for us, it's been better
[2:13] that we're 5050. Also say so, I guess I'm kind of hinting at this. So we were talking about this before we
[2:14] started recording the main advice I would give to people if they're considering working with family, is,
[2:15] I'm like, it's all the same advice that I would give someone who's about to get married is, it's like, look,
[2:16] you're going to fight. You need to know that you can fight well with this person. And you need to
[2:17] practice that and figure it out. And you need to know that it's probably going to be pretty bad for a while
[2:18] as you learn like you're going to get better at it, but that needs to be something that you're both
[2:19] committed to and fighting well, just means communicating. Well, that's all it means. It's, you know, I
[2:20] think communicating well when you're not fighting feels a lot better, so I sort of separate them. But the
[2:21] end of the day, it's all just communication. So being able to communicate well is sort of like the top
[2:22] thing, which to me, is the same in marriage as it is to working together. And if you're like, not committed
[2:23] to that, the other person is not committed to that, or you're both bad at that, and you don't really want to
[2:24] learn, you're gonna have major problems. It's just really not going to be good. So it's that. And then the
[2:25] other thing I would say is you have to work towards getting on the same page, or understanding what
[2:26] page each of you is on, in a few arenas, mainly, I would say money and the time you want to put
[2:27] towards, or maybe time isn't boundaries, money and boundaries. So let's say one of you has children,
[2:28] one of you doesn't one of you probably has more constraints on your time, as far as how many hours
[2:29] you can put towards something versus the other person, or maybe you don't, I don't know, but just you
[2:30] need to be able to clearly say your boundaries to each other, because if you don't, there's going to be
[2:31] resentment, misunderstandings. Same thing with money. You need to be able to freely discuss money,
[2:32] just within your business, but like you're going to have to discuss what each of you makes benefits,
[2:33] what you're going to pay someone blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So if you're not able to freely discuss
[2:34] money issues, that's going to be a problem with business. Same thing, I would say, in a marriage.
[2:35] Elsie
[2:36] Navigating small disagreements and also big, huge ones. So one of our most epic fights that I want to
[2:37] bring up because I picked one that you won, oh, was when we created our first app. We had to decide,
[2:38] and it was right before it launched. We had to decide whether it would be a free app or a paid app, and
[2:39] if it were, you know, a free app, there's a there's a case to make for it, either way.
[2:40] Emma
[2:41] But at the time, most apps were free. This was a long time ago, it was not very common to have a paid
[2:42] app.
[2:43] Elsie
[2:44] There was definitely more free apps. And, yeah, Emma wanted our app to be paid, and I wanted it to be
[2:45] free. Like I've always been the like risk, more gambler in our relationship, and she's always been the
[2:46] more cautious person, and I think it's good to have some of both. So anyway, she won that argument,
[2:47] and I am so incredibly glad she did, because that was our first huge success. It was life changing.
[2:48] Yeah, it changed the financial situation of our entire business. So we were able, after that to build, to do
[2:49] a lot of the building things that we wanted to do during that era, like hiring people, we got insurance,
[2:50] you know, just all kinds of great things that we would not have had the ability to even think about
[2:51] before. So, yeah, it was, it was a wonderful decision, and I think it was the right decision for the time.
[2:52] Emma
[2:53] Who knows what would have happened, yeah, kind of a fun thought.
[2:54] Elsie
[2:55] We tried it different ways each time. And I also think. The the industry evolved. Oh, yeah, so that made
[2:56] a difference too.
[2:57] Emma
[2:58] I don't even think at the time we launched our first one, you could have a subscription. Like, no, there
[2:59] was no option for that in the in the Apple Store. Like, so, so different because, like, most apps are
[3:00] subscription based now. So it's just funny, yeah, just such a different time. So, yeah, I think too, like, so
[3:01] when you're family, I feel like you naturally know each other a lot of times, but sometimes you, like,
[3:02] know someone socially, but you don't know them work wise or whatever. Like, so I think you kind of
[3:03] have to have an era where you're figuring that out and need to understand that about each other.
[3:04] Because, like, I think some of our fights have happened in that I didn't understand what type of worker
[3:05] you were like. Let me explain. I guess I'm more of a, you know, the tortoise and the hare, classic story,
[3:06] right? I'm the tortoise. Elsie is the hare. And not really this. You know, this is an exaggeration, but I can
[3:07] do like a measured headed towards the finish line. I don't even care what's happening around me. I'm
[3:08] gonna just keep on going at the pace. I'm going, Yeah, and Elsie is very boom or bust. So if she's, like,
[3:09] excited about something or on something, you will never beat her, not ever. You will never, ever, ever
[3:10] beat her. She will do it to the 1,000th degree. But if she's not interested in something, it is impossible to
[3:11] get her to do it. If you know that and can appreciate that, you can work really well together, but if you
[3:12] don't know that, or you don't appreciate it, you might find yourself fighting with her, and that's not going
[3:13] to be productive.
[3:14] Elsie
[3:15] Yeah, no. I think in our early days, a lot of our biggest fights were kind of surrounding this, because
[3:16] Emma wanted me to become a consistent person.
[3:17] Emma
[3:18] I was like, you're gonna be like me, and then it's like, you can't expect other people to be like, that's not
[3:19] how it works.
[3:20] Elsie
[3:21] Yeah. So and I was, I was very mean. I was always picking on her about the quality of her work,
[3:22] because she was like, very like, I'm gonna finish each task and it's done. And to be fair to her, she was,
[3:23] you know, in her 20s, learning to do something, but I wasn't all good, yeah, and neither was my work,
[3:24] neither was my work, but I had a lot of like criticism to give her over, like her photos or her writing, or
[3:25] just like if it wasn't exactly how I thought it should be. So, yeah, We butted heads a lot in our 20s, and
[3:26] that was definitely, I would say, most of our big fights were in our 20s. In our 30s, I feel like we calmed
[3:27] down a lot, and we kind of got to enjoy what we built. And then now we're in our rebuilding era, which is
[3:28] also really exciting. I mean, yeah, I kind of hope that all of the, like, worst, most terrible fights are all
[3:29] behind us. But you never know.
[3:30] Emma
[3:31] But they probably are. But, yeah, I've gotten too wise now, no, I don't know. We'll see. We'll see if that
[3:32] holds up. Another thing I was gonna say so a few episodes back, or, I don't know, a little while back we
[3:33] talked about values bridge. Yeah, it's called the values bridge. The thing I kind of want to say about that
[3:34] is one thing that works well with our dynamic of working together is we both deeply value career and
[3:35] working. And I think that that makes it where, even though, as I just described, I'm a little bit tortoise,
[3:36] she's a little bit hare, I think at the end of the day, though, we're both very interested in what we're
[3:37] working on, and we get very excited by it, and it it's very fulfilling for us to have careers and to be like
[3:38] constantly working on them. So in a way, it's like we're kind of just feeding into each other's core values.
[3:39] And I think that's really special, and does give us this very like deep dynamic. It's almost like a way that
[3:40] I can love you is helping you with your career and vice versa, yeah. And I think that's really special for
[3:41] family members, if you if you have that, and we do. So that's something I guess I would say to think
[3:42] about, is like, think about maybe, like, take the values bridge and see what your guys's core values are,
[3:43] and it's okay if they're not the same, but it's just something to kind of think about as you navigate
[3:44] working together, or if you're already working together, be like, Oh, because I just feel like the more you
[3:45] learn about someone else, and the more you learn about yourself, the better you're able to navigate
[3:46] relationships and situations. Because you're like, I see why you think this, and I see why I think this.
[3:47] And now we don't have to have this like, I'm mad at you. It's just more like we're seeing things different,
[3:48] and we've got to find our path through it. And that's all there is, you know. So there's that values,
[3:49] thinking about your values?
[3:50] Elsie
[3:51] I agree. Like my two closest relationships, my sister and my husband, both have high values in work
[3:52] and ambition, the same as I do, and I think that's why we that's why we are close. That's one reason
[3:53] why we're close. I think that, like one of the sort of, like sad stories that we've often heard, because in
[3:54] our especially in, like, our early blogging era, I feel like a lot of people thought of us as like a temp. That
[3:55] they should follow, and they started blogs with a partner for that reason. And like, that's not always
[3:56] good. Like, you can totally do businesses like this by yourself, and for a lot of people, it's better that
[3:57] way. But a lot of experiences that people have are, you know, you start something with someone, and
[3:58] you kind of plan out, like, I'll do this and you'll do this, but then only one person actually, like, completes
[3:59] their homework, and they end up doing everything. And then obviously, six months later, a year later,
[4:00] it's so clear to both people that it's not working and that, you know, it's not going to work, and it's just
[4:01] kind of it becomes like a guilt and shame on one end and then a frustration on the other end. So I think
[4:02] partnering with someone who has your same level of ambition is extremely important. You know you
[4:03] don't like for someone like me, I should not partner with someone who's like, I never want to work on
[4:04] vacation. I never want to think about work after 5pm like, that's my brain doesn't work that way. And
[4:05] probably the people I collaborate with closely in my life will also have a brain that I do think about work
[4:06] a little bit before I go to bed. I just do it's like, how I'm wired.
[4:07] Emma
[4:08] Same and like, we will talk about work stuff like at a holiday, and not because we're avoiding the
[4:09] holiday, just like it's on our minds, and we both are interested in the conversation, like it's just what
[4:10] we're like, and so it works well. But if one of us was like, Oh, I, you know, I'm not at work right now, so I
[4:11] really don't, you know, it could be a little bit of a friction, or it could even be a big fight, but it could at
[4:12] least be like, kind of like, oh, this is more difficult dynamic, because one of us is really jazzed about this
[4:13] all the time, and the other one's like, Please don't talk to me about work. I came here to watch a movie
[4:14] where we will just whisper.
[4:15] Elsie
[4:16] Yeah, no, I think that that's absolutely and yeah, since I said something negative about your husband
[4:17] earlier. Now I'll say that is something that I love about him, that we've always really connected on, is
[4:18] that he's also very career focused, and he can talk about it all day too. Yeah. And so that's something
[4:19] that we've always had in common. Most of the people who were the best fit as colleagues were very
[4:20] driven and very invested and sort of self starter people. So in as we progress through the years, we
[4:21] started only hiring self starter personalities, because we learned that that was the only type of people
[4:22] we liked working with.
[4:23] Emma
[4:24] We're also bad managers, and we figured that out. So we really needed self starters, because I'm just
[4:25] not an overseer.
[4:26] Elsie
[4:27] It turns out that managing is its own skill.
[4:28] Emma
[4:29] That's a skill, skill that I don't have, don't really want.
[4:30] Elsie
[4:31] if I'm being honest, me neither. Yeah. So anyway, do you have any more like fights, or any more happy
[4:32] things from our working years? Or any advice for people who are considering it.
[4:33] Emma
[4:34] Couple of the things I wrote down was, I think that this goes along with fighting is, I think resentment is
[4:35] much harder to come back from than just having, like, a straightforward argument as close to the
[4:36] incident as you can. And I also put it out there, I think it's totally fine if you sometimes need a minute to,
[4:37] like, process how you're feeling, or if you're in the middle of an argument, and you're like, I'd like to
[4:38] table this for a few hours, or until tomorrow. I want to sort out better how I'm feeling, or I'm just feeling
[4:39] kind of heated, and I don't like that, and I just want to, like, have a minute. That's fine. I think some
[4:40] people are like, No, we've got to talk about this from start to finish. And I'm like, I don't really, I don't
[4:41] really believe that. I think if you're using a break as avoidance, because you're just going to try to get
[4:42] out of talking about the thing that's not good, don't do that. But if you just need a minute, I'm a person
[4:43] who I feel my feelings very slowly, as I said, I'm the tortoise, so it just comes over me slowly, and
[4:44] sometimes it makes it where, like, if something bad happens, I'll be like, That's okay. And I don't mean it
[4:45] yet. My anger actually hasn't hit me yet, and when it does all of a sudden, I'm like, Oh, shit. I already
[4:46] said it was okay, but now I'm actually feeling angry, and I think I need to talk with them about it, not in a,
[4:47] you know, like, you suck way, but just like, hey, I'm having some feelings, and I need to express them
[4:48] somehow, hopefully in an appropriate way. And if I don't, they'll they'll curdle inside my heart like spoiled
[4:49] milk into resentment. And that ain't no good. You can't have that. So that's like harder to come back
[4:50] from. It's better to just get in there as close to the incident as you can and say what you're feeling. And
[4:51] by the way, make it more about you. Be like, I'm feeling this way, not like you did a bad thing. Don't start
[4:52] off that way. Start with, I'm feeling overlooked. I'm feeling mad. I'm feeling like you didn't value this thing
[4:53] that I built. You know, whatever it is, start with what your what's going on inside of you, and your harder
[4:54] in your head. And start the. There, because that's just a better place than trying to guess what the other
[4:55] person meant, because you maybe don't know at all. So anyway, but yeah, resentment garbage, better
[4:56] to just fight it out as quickly as you can. And then the other thing I would say is I feel like a lot of the
[4:57] best times are when the business is thriving. So that's fun. Like, enjoy that and celebrate together. I
[4:58] remember those, like, I remember going to Hoola hands for, like, way too sweet of cocktails whenever
[4:59] our app comes out. I remember that. I don't even really remember some of the fights you've brought up,
[5:00] but I remember some of the moments we had where we were, like, we did something and it worked,
[5:01] hooray! So, like, lean into those moments, because that's like, some of the best rewards of working with
[5:02] a family member is you, like, have these stories together now of hopefully success and like, happy
[5:03] times, and then you need to take care when things are going bad, because those are the times where
[5:04] you're going to feel like, we don't have any money. And it's a lot easier for me to blame myself, or blame
[5:05] you, or get mad at you, or get mad at myself. And it's like, well, it might just be that your business is
[5:06] dying for other reasons. Let's just, you know, open our hearts up. Because if you're working with
[5:07] someone else, you just got to be like, hey, things aren't going well, and we're gonna try to navigate it.
[5:08] And that's that's all there really is to this. So I think it's like, just, my thing is, like, lean in to your feelings,
[5:09] whenever things are good and whenever things are really bad, take care to really examine your
[5:10] feelings, and hopefully they're not ones of blaming yourself blaming others. It's just more of a like, let's
[5:11] see what makes sense here.
[5:12] Elsie
[5:13] I actually think it's really fun to strategize through challenging times. Plan a pivot, plan a closure. It's not
[5:14] really ever fun to let someone go, but it can be a relief when it's over, if you know that it's something
[5:15] you need to do. But yeah, I think that yeah, standing strong with each other through those times, it is
[5:16] challenging, but I think that like being proactive, to always keep pivoting when you need to. Is
[5:17] something that has helped us?
[5:18] Emma
[5:19] We're both optimists, yeah, so I think that also helps, and it could actually work if we were both
[5:20] pessimists. I'm not saying don't ever work with a pessimist if you're an optimist. I just think it's
[5:21] something to look at.
[5:22] Elsie
[5:23] I don't know. I like working. I wouldn't want to.
[5:24] Emma
[5:25] I like, I like going into a brainstorm and people bring ideas, rather than just that won't work, that won't
[5:26] work, that won't work, that person can just get the hell out. I'm like, bring some unhinged bad ideas,
[5:27] dude, try. Let's try. And Elsie will do that, and I will do it.
[5:28] Elsie
[5:29] Yeah, she knows. I'll bring my unhinged ideas to a brainstorm. That's all I do.
[5:30] Emma
[5:31] Like, well, optimism, so yeah, I think that that helps our dynamic a lot, too.
[5:32] Elsie
[5:33] It's beautiful. I think that it's one of the best decisions I made in this lifetime to partner with my sister. I
[5:34] think she's right that being 5050, partners is completely different than hiring a family member. So keep
[5:35] that in mind. If you're not willing to do a 5050 partnership, it might be something to think about. Why I
[5:36] think it's very hard to have a family member as your employee. It's much trickier. It's much trickier. It's
[5:37] much less pleasant. I don't really recommend it personally.
[5:38] Emma
[5:39] No, because who do they have to complain to about their boss? Yeah, it's silly.
[5:40] Elsie
[5:41] You gotta Yeah. But yeah for in these years, I think there's been a lot of lessons we learned good bad
[5:42] things the hard way.
[5:43] Emma
[5:44] Yeah, and I don't know, like if you have a side of this too, but for me, so I think you have to know
[5:45] yourself like so my personality is I'm a middle child, and I'm a very classic middle child. So if you type in
[5:46] middle child, what they like, you're gonna get me. There's a lot of like. Not every middle child's like that,
[5:47] but I happen to be anyway. So I think I did have to go through a time in my early adulthood, and this
[5:48] was when I moved to LA where I needed to be my own self for a while away from Elsie, because Elsie
[5:49] is, like, really cool. I don't know if you guys know this, but she means really overpowering. She's very
[5:50] cool, and she is a little overpowering. It's because she's cool and, like, she's my big sister, so I've
[5:51] always looked up to her. I have that dynamic too, and I needed time in my adult life where I became my
[5:52] own self and I had my own point of view, and I felt like I could do life on my own, apart from her. And
[5:53] until I had that, I don't think I was ready to really work with her, because it would have just been more of
[5:54] like being in her shadow all the time. And I think that people online sometimes perceived us that way at
[5:55] different points. And it it doesn't really matter to me, because I know for me and my heart that I figured
[5:56] that out for myself, and I needed to, I did so if you're in a situation like that, because maybe you're
[5:57] going to work with a sibling, and maybe they're older, maybe they're younger, maybe you had a certain
[5:58] dynamic when you were growing up, I don't know. So you might need to figure something out about
[5:59] yourself before you're able to bring your best self and your whole self to the situation. Same thing, by
[6:00] the way, as marriage, you've got to be a whole person on your own before you can really be your best
[6:01] self in any situation.
[6:02] Elsie
[6:03] Oh, it's beautiful.
[6:04] Emma
[6:05] Yeah, I love that.
[6:06] Elsie
[6:07] I'm also grateful that I tried to do it without you, because it was so so much worse, and then I made you
[6:08] appreciate me. It made me appreciate you. Yes, okay, so my closing thought on this topic is something
[6:09] that I think every small business owner needs to hear, and really is that no business is forever.
[6:10] Businesses have lifetimes, just like people. And I think we accept that we're all going to die, but for
[6:11] some reason, people don't accept that businesses are, you know, on a limited lifespan. And there is
[6:12] nothing wrong with that. So I think knowing that in the beginning, and then you you know, there's lots of
[6:13] things you can do to keep it healthy, give it the best and longest life it can have, but all businesses will
[6:14] end eventually. And I don't think I knew that when we started, you know, I think I somehow thought we
[6:15] could do a version of this till we were 80, you know what I mean, and maybe we will.
[6:16] Emma
[6:17] But yeah, it's, uh, it won't, it won't be recognizable on the outside in that way.
[6:18] Elsie
[6:19] But it's helped me the last few years, as we were sort of closing some parts of a beautiful mess and
[6:20] pivoting some parts, we did receive backlash from our loyal, wonderful listeners and readers, who we
[6:21] appreciate and we always will, but some of it was really mean and really harsh, and it was kind of like,
[6:22] why are you burning down your own business? Why are you giving up?
[6:23] Emma
[6:24] Ive had close friends say things like that to me too. Yeah, because they just don't know. They don't
[6:25] know, you know, it's not their fault. It's just, I mean, it's a little judgy, but, like, they don't know, you know,
[6:26] and it's okay.
[6:27] Elsie
[6:28] Yeah, and I think that at the point that that came in, I had already kind of gone through my own grief
[6:29] cycle, and I knew in my heart, like, no business is forever, and it made it a lot easier for me to just, like,
[6:30] pass through that little sorrowful time without letting it be permanent. You know, it's just, it was just a
[6:31] weird season. So, yeah, I think when you begin your business, do also know that someday it'll end,
[6:32] because we've been doing a lot of marriage analogies, which are very good and they apply, but not in
[6:33] this way. Like, yeah, you know what I mean, marriage. You might really be married to this person till you
[6:34] die. You're probably not gonna own whatever businesses you're starting till you die. Probably not, you
[6:35] know, and that's okay, and it's normal. And I think it's something that, like, you should try to take on your
[6:36] own terms as much as you can.
[6:37] Emma
[6:38] Yeah, book report. Time. Book report. Okay, my book report this week is Lights Out by Navessa Allen.
[6:39] Have you heard of this?
[6:40] Elsie
[6:41] I haven't.
[6:42] Emma
[6:43] Okay, it's been on the best seller. It's not current the moment, but it's, it's been out a little bit. It's a
[6:44] series, okay? It's called the into the darkness series, and other ones are out already. So this is the first
[6:45] one. It is a dark romance. Okay, so dark romance can mean a number of things. I tend to think of
[6:46] Colleen Hoover, some of her works in that kind of vein. This isn't really that.
[6:47] Elsie
[6:48] I don't think I've ever read a dark romance before.
[6:49] Emma
[6:50] I haven't read that many. For someone who reads a lot of romance, dark romance isn't really a corner of
[6:51] it that I tend to walk over to.
[6:52] Elsie
[6:53] That's the main thing that makes it different from romance.
[6:54] Emma
[6:55] So usually it has morally gray characters, one or both of the love interests, or if there's three love
[6:56] interests, whatever, it'll have very morally gray. They'll be making choices that are very on the line, and
[6:57] is the author's job to make us still love them and still root for them. And I'll say this author did it. So I
[6:58] was just kind of like, I don't know about this book, I'd seen it around, but I was like, I don't know if it's
[6:59] going to be for me, but I'll give it a try. I've just had so many people recommend it. So I was like, we'll
[7:00] see. And I was immediately like, okay, this person can write because right away, like, you're kind of
[7:01] thrown into this world. I don't think people even realize how hard it is to do a first chapter, because it's
[7:02] like you're introducing everyone. It's like showing up at a party where you don't know anyone and not
[7:03] wanting to leave immediately, which has never once happened to me in my life. So, but like, that's what
[7:04] the author's job is in chapter one, right? So, yeah, anyway, she does it. I was immediately like, what's
[7:05] happening here? We're in a world where, like, you've set it up, there's gonna be blood and gore, there's
[7:06] gonna be dangerous situations, there's gonna be morally gracious. Right away, the the feelings, the
[7:07] vibes, are there, you're you feel like you walked into a hot topic store and you're like, Okay. Right. All
[7:08] right. Here I am, and it's also like, such a page turner. I think I read this in like four days. It was just like,
[7:09] boom, boom, boom. Every chapter ending was like, Whoa, what's going to happen next? Uh oh, she
[7:10] just got them in a really tough situation. How are they going to get out of that? And so it was very Yeah,
[7:11] it was it was a fast read. It was very voyeuristic. It was weird. I don't think I'm gonna read the next ones
[7:12] in the series. I feel like it was, for me, personal note, a one and done. But as far as writing, the writing
[7:13] was a plus. And definitely, if you're like, I want to learn more about writing chapter endings. This one
[7:14] does it. This really does it. So that's fun. The book opens with some trigger warnings. Anytime a book
[7:15] does that, I feel like I should mention that, in case someone's going to pick this up and not realize that.
[7:16] So this has lots of like kink sex in it. It's very like kink positive. So there are people wearing masks. A
[7:17] character breaks into someone's house. There's stalking, there's a sex with a knife involved. There's
[7:18] choking, there's, I'm not using all the right words. I think they call that breath play. There's trying to think
[7:19] of anything else read the first page of the book, because there's some trigger warnings, and could be
[7:20] things that you maybe don't want to read, and that's totally fine, but I'm just trying to give a sense of the
[7:21] writing and, like, yeah, what the book's about. But like, I thought it was super fun, quite the ride. Also,
[7:22] this is a side note from the book, but it just is the thing that I've sort of, like, found myself super drawn
[7:23] to. So I'm always reading, like the acknowledgements or the about the author. I just like reading about,
[7:24] like, people's journeys. So it mentioned that this author, she released, I believe this book originally self
[7:25] published as like segments. I don't know if it was each chapter or if it was, like every three chapters
[7:26] through her Patreon, and that was like, kind of how it got a big following. And then she obviously went
[7:27] into traditional publishing. I bought this at a bookstore or maybe thrift books, I don't remember, but it's
[7:28] been traditionally published since then. And I just thought that was super interesting. I was immediate,
[7:29] like, I got to go check out our Patreon. I want to see like, I don't know. I just find that it's very like
[7:30] Brandon Sanderson to me, where it's like, yes, he's traditionally published, but he also has this whole
[7:31] other business side to him that's very interesting. And as someone who's always interested in business,
[7:32] and then also, I like people who, like forge their own path, I'm very drawn to that, and I always want to
[7:33] know the stories behind it. I mean, I think that's why I got into blogging, was I was seeing that people
[7:34] were making money online just writing what they were interested in. And I was like, Whoa, I want to
[7:35] learn about that. And so anytime I see authors doing something like that, whether it's like, adjacent to
[7:36] traditional publishing, or before they traditionally published, whatever, I am always drawn to it. And this
[7:37] author does that. So she has a pretty interesting story, and she's a great writer, that's all I have to say.
[7:38] But if you don't want to read about people choking each other during sex. Don't read the focus.
[7:39] Elsie
[7:40] Yeah, I'm definitely not going to read it, but I enjoyed hearing your review. That's interesting. Yeah. I
[7:41] also love hearing people's individual like, stories of how it worked out for them, because every story is
[7:42] so different. Okay, what I am reading, I'm actually still currently reading this, but I'm almost to the end, is
[7:43] Lincoln in the Bardo by George Saunders. So this book is so fun and different. As soon as I started
[7:44] reading it, I don't experience this very much very often in my life, but I experienced sort of like rage that
[7:45] no one told me about this book that I was just not finding out. I was like, offended. I was like, who in this
[7:46] world do you know who loves ghosts more than me? There's no one. There's no one, but someone
[7:47] must have told me about it, because it was on my bookshelf when I when it was recommended to me
[7:48] this time, it was already on my bookshelf. So to be fair, I do have, like, hundreds of books that I don't
[7:49] remember how they got there. I do too. Probably someone's recommended that did recommend it
[7:50] anyway. Okay, so this book, so I will start by saying I knew, I know about George Saunders. I follow his
[7:51] sub stack. I just thought of him as a famous white man author like I didn't really know anything about
[7:52] him, you know, I knew he was a writing teacher his substack that comes across in his sub sack, but I
[7:53] did not, and I was like planning that sometime I would read one of his novels. But, you know, there's
[7:54] just so many famous white men. Yes, sometimes you don't get down the list, right, right, yeah, but this
[7:55] is a special, famous white man. So what I love about this book? So first of all, it's a ghost story. Second
[7:56] of all, it is a historical fiction, but it is the strangest, most unique twist on the genre that I've seen in a
[7:57] while, because it is about Abraham Lincoln and. And I have, like, one of my top historical fixations is
[7:58] Mary Todd Lincoln's White House, seances. I love that kind of, obviously, I knew that they lost a child
[7:59] while they were in the White House. Everyone knows that, if you care about seances, and you know
[8:00] spiritualism and things like that. So this book is about. So the historical aspect of it, that's true is that
[8:01] Abraham Lincoln was reported to go, I guess, nearby the White House, to this graveyard. I know it's like
[8:02] a more of a, you know, the like ones that are like, you can go inside like, it's not a grave. You did dig up
[8:03] you, yeah, open the door and go inside one of those types of things, and take the child out of the coffin,
[8:04] hold him after death. So that is like real historical account. And then the rest of the book is just a
[8:05] fictional ghost story about the ghosts who live in this graveyard and witnessed it the child ghost, Willie
[8:06] Lincoln, and it is quite a journey like it is. It is a it's a wonderful book, but it's super weird. I would say it
[8:07] kind of has, like a Wes Anderson type flavor, where it has that, like seriousness balanced with like
[8:08] quirky. So it has that. And then the other thing that I am absolutely obsessed with is the audio book for
[8:09] this has more than 50 performers. They're mostly all famous. So the whole entire book. You're just
[8:10] hearing famous voices, and they will do like, there will be like, a new famous person who does, like, two
[8:11] lines from the book. So it is just like the, like a work of art audio book. So yeah, I'm obsessed. I'll
[8:12] probably finish it this afternoon. And yeah, it's just a wonderful journey. If you like super weird historical
[8:13] fiction, definitely check it out. And if you like experimental fiction in general, I also think it's worth just
[8:14] like getting the paper book and looking at it, because it's very different. And like structurally, it's just very
[8:15] inspiring to look at the pages and see how it's formatted and stuff. So, yes, lovely, but it's hot take time.
[8:16] Emma
[8:17] Oh, yeah, okay, we do have hot take. Okay. This is from Michelle. She says my hot take Is this inside
[8:18] every good 700 page book is an excellent 500 page book, just waiting for a strong edit. No book needs
[8:19] to be 700 pages if it does make it two books. Yes, even the Goldfinch. Okay, shots fired there at the
[8:20] end.
[8:21] Elsie
[8:22] I know, that's funny that she tried to picked one single out. She tried to bring Donna Tartt into this. Okay,
[8:23] you go first, because I feel like we might come down a little differently on this one.
[8:24] Emma
[8:25] I mean, I will say when I'm choosing a new book. So I'm, like, standing in my library looking all the
[8:26] books that I have on there, I will, like, sometimes be like, that looks pretty long. I don't know if I'm gonna
[8:27] love it. So it could be a little bit of a deterrent to readers, for if it seems much longer than other books
[8:28] they're reading, then they might feel like, Am I ready for that commitment? You know? So I could see
[8:29] that I also think, like, every book should be edited. Every book should be edited to, like, the shortest it
[8:30] can be with the most impact. But I think that's kind of like an art form. So what does that mean? You
[8:31] know, I don't know. So, and I'm trying to think of a book that I read that was like crazy long that I was
[8:32] like, Yeah, needed to be that long. Couldn't have been more than one book, because a lot of books I
[8:33] read that are a series, like they're more than one is like a trilogy, and a lot of times they're fantasy or
[8:34] something like that. I don't know if I agree or disagree. I guess I agree, but it's a pretty light light
[8:35] agreement. If I was in a jury, I feel like I could be swayed in the room. I don't really feel strongly. Okay,
[8:36] okay, where are you at?
[8:37] Elsie
[8:38] Okay, so I strongly agree. In general, I do enjoy a tightly edited book more, and I often read an excellent
[8:39] book that's on the long side, and think in my mind, what I would have cut out, or what what didn't really
[8:40] need to be. And there is always something I do. I do agree, though I do agree, and I think that longer
[8:41] books have a price of entry that's more intimidating, like, that's why there's, like, some Anne Rice books
[8:42] that I haven't read, right? They're like, they're the longest books I've ever seen, and I do want, I would
[8:43] like to read them, but, yeah, I would have already read it if it came as a medium sized novel, right? So,
[8:44] yeah. So I would say, in general, I agree. But. But there are exceptions. For sure, I think that long books
[8:45] are good too, and I'm not going to not read it just because it's long, but yeah, in the back of my mind,
[8:46] personally, probably I would think it would be a little bit better if it was a little bit shorter. Okay, but
[8:47] there's a part of this that I strongly disagree with. Oh, I strongly disagree that you can just chop a long
[8:48] book into two books drama. Disagree with that, like, you can't do that. That's not how it works. Usually,
[8:49] a lot of these books would not make a stronger two book. You know what? I mean? Yeah, yeah. Like,
[8:50] they just don't have the structure for that.
[8:51] Emma
[8:52] I can't think of an example, but I know for sure I've gotten to the end of a book before, and I didn't
[8:53] realize it was gonna keep the story was gonna keep going. And I just was like, I was like, I never read
[8:54] the other ones. Like, you know, I was almost like angry, like just make it longer.
[8:55] Elsie
[8:56] I recommended it to you, and she was so mad.
[8:57] Emma
[8:58] I haven't read the rest of it.
[8:59] Elsie
[9:00] It was a four book series, and after the first book, which ends on the most delicious possible cliffhanger,
[9:01] she was like angry.
[9:02] Emma
[9:03] Yeah, I was like, tape the other one onto the end here, because we weren't done, and now I'm mad.
[9:04] Elsie
[9:05] Yeah, but that was a planned series. I just think if it's a series, it has to be well planned, where each
[9:06] book stands on its own, you know, in a way.
[9:07] Emma
[9:08] Well, I'll say the first one must stand on its own, in a way, the second one can bleed into the third one
[9:09] that I will accept in a trilogy, but the first one, it better stand on its own. And if it doesn't, I'm gonna be
[9:10] pissed. But the second one, now you can kind of end us on a weird because we know the third one's
[9:11] coming. That's fine. That works for me.
[9:12] Elsie
[9:13] But yeah, not the first, yeah. No, I do. I do think editing is a beautiful thing, yeah?
[9:14] Emma
[9:15] And hard, because we try to do it now with each other and on our own. And I'm like, man, editors are
[9:16] just really smart.
[9:17] Elsie
[9:18] Yeah, so it's a skill for sure.
[9:19] Emma
[9:20] All right, now it's time for a joke or a fact or a meditation with Nova.
[9:21] Elsie
[9:22] Hey, Nova, what do you have for us this week?
[9:23] Nova
[9:24] Another joke.
[9:25] Elsie
[9:26] Okay, I'm ready.
[9:27] Nova
[9:28] What do you call a sleeping bull?
[9:29] Elsie
[9:30] Hmm, a sleeping bull, I'm not sure.
[9:31] Nova
[9:32] A bulldozer.
[9:33] Elsie
[9:34] Good job.
[9:35] Nova
[9:36] Have a good week, everybody.
[9:37] Elsie
[9:38] All right, we love receiving your hot takes and podcast suggestions, so send those to us anytime at
[9:39] podcast@abeautifulmess.com. Thanks so much for listening, and we will be back next week.

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