# #289: How To Start Over When You Fail

An episode of [A Beautiful Mess Podcast](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1485472892), 2 Mar 2026, 49 min.

Audio: https://mgln.ai/e/498/pscrb.fm/rss/p/traffic.libsyn.com/secure/abmpodcast/ABM_EP289_Final.mp3?dest-id=1624655

This week we're talking about the inevitable experience of failure and how to hone the skill of starting over. Setbacks can be crushing, but they only turn permanent if you quit. In this episode, we're sharing our own vulnerable failure stories and the things that have helped us to get back on our feet. Thank you to this week's sponsor: Try their products and support our show by going to DrinkLMNT.com/ABeautifulMess Mindset shifts: Sometimes you have to quit no one owes you anything BOOK REPORT Emma: Uprooted By Naomi Novik Elsie: The Correspondent by Virginia Evans You can support us by leaving us a couple of 5 star recipe reviews this week at abeautifulmess.com Have a topic idea for the podcast? Write in to us at podcast@abeautifulmess.com or leave us a voicemail at 417-893-0011.

## Transcript

[0:00] Emma
[0:01] You're listening to the Beautiful Mess podcast your cozy comfort listen. I'm your host, Emma Chapman.
[0:02] Elsie
[0:03] And I'm your host, Elsie Larson.
[0:04] Emma
[0:05] And this week, we're talking about the inevitable experience of failure and how to hone the skill of
[0:06] starting over. Setbacks can be crushing, but they only turn permanent if you quit. In this episode, we're
[0:07] sharing our own vulnerable failure stories and the things that have helped us to get back on our feet.
[0:08] Elsie
[0:09] I love this topic, and I can't wait to share our failure stories. I feel like anytime when we get to share,
[0:10] like, the very vulnerable, like, I beg of you, learn from my mistakes. Like, I love that, that big sister
[0:11] feeling when we get to.
[0:12] Emma
[0:13] Yeah, because I love it, when people do it for me, like, when they're like, Oh, here's the thing I messed
[0:14] up on. I'm like, I don't know if it's my age or just my experience in life or whatever, but I'm just like, very
[0:15] like, give me your best advice, and I will probably take it. I won't even think about it. I will just do it
[0:16] because I know that it's so easy to just like, pick apart things, or at least it is for me, I'm very pick
[0:17] everything apart all the time. So I'm like, Just tell me your best advice, and if I can tell that you mean it
[0:18] with sincerity, I'm going to take it in and I'm just going to take it for myself. Just sign me up. All right. So
[0:19] this one, we're talking about failure. We're going to talk about our stories of failure. Do you want to tell a
[0:20] story first?
[0:21] Elsie
[0:22] I do, so I have a twofer, and one ends with a sad ending because I quit and I didn't keep going, and one
[0:23] ends with happier ending because I learned from my mistakes. Okay, so I have told this story on the
[0:24] podcast before, in like, somewhere deep, deep, deep, deep in our archives, but I think there's probably
[0:25] a lot of people who haven't heard it, because we have 300 episodes now, right? So it's a lot.
[0:26] Emma
[0:27] That's too many some might say.
[0:28] Elsie
[0:29] So when I was in my mid 20s, and I was very poor, I was like broke, broke, broke, and I was in debt,
[0:30] and I was starting a business, and like, my accountant said directly to me, like, when people ask you
[0:31] how your business is doing, do you say it's doing okay? Like he would, like, he was, like, giving me
[0:32] tough love. Like it was just it was a very, very low point financially in my life, and like the most, I have
[0:33] lived in poverty in my life. So anyway, during that time, I made friends, lifelong friends, with a man
[0:34] named Carter Bryant, who lives in our hometown, and we, just like both, happened to be from this small
[0:35] Missouri town. We have like a special magic in our Missouri town. Brad Pitt is from here. Chapel Rowan
[0:36] is from here, and my friend Carter Bryan is from here. And it's, and it's just like a small, little, medium
[0:37] size town. It has a little magic. And so anyway, he was, Carter is the creator of the Bratz dolls. So as
[0:38] soon as I found that out, I was just like, and he was, he was like, sweet to me. I've just always been like
[0:39] a magnet for the gay best friend. Like, the gay best friend is my type.
[0:40] Emma
[0:41] It is yeah, thinking of all your gay best friends over the year.
[0:42] Elsie
[0:43] Yeah, and as many as possible, until I die. It is my type, for sure. Anyway, so we became friends. He
[0:44] was very sweet to me. I think he was compassionate. I think he could see like kind of, I think he like,
[0:45] saw some of him himself in me, like his younger self. And he was like, I want to help this girl, this poor,
[0:46] this poor little poverty girl, dumb, dumb girl, yeah, making so many business mistakes so quickly. So
[0:47] anyway, he offered me some business advice. He told me about developing his toy line, and just the
[0:48] Enneagram seven that I am. I was like, I want to develop a toy line. And he was like, great, do it. And
[0:49] every 25 year old mistake I could make, I did make at that time. First of all, he was like, Do you want
[0:50] me to introduce you to my agent? And I was like, No, why would I need an agent? And I'm gonna be
[0:51] very vulnerable. I'm gonna tell all my real mistakes. I was like, no, just just connect me with the
[0:52] company. And so, so I made these samples of these dolls based on myself and my friends, they were
[0:53] like, there was a doll of Emma, there was a doll of me, there was a doll of two of our other friends, and I
[0:54] wrote a children's book to go with them. And it was basically, I would say, if it appealed to anyone, it
[0:55] would appeal to young hipster moms in the 2000 10s. And that's probably it for sure. I wouldn't think it
[0:56] would appeal to children, if I'm being honest, and it would not. I mean, I have children now, I know what
[0:57] they like, and it wouldn't really appeal to very many people like it, just it, straight up, wasn't really a good
[0:58] idea. But like I do, I went deep into it, and they. Had dozens of little outfits that were hand sewn, and
[0:59] they had, like, just to get the dolls made, the samples made. Yes, they like, I still have them in a box in
[1:00] my garage, and they have dozens of accessories. They're beautiful, like, they're the most beautiful
[1:01] waste of money I've ever made in my life. They had, like, accessories and outfits and like, they had
[1:02] these little cameras that they wore around their neck, and they were just, like, very cute, like the the
[1:03] 2000 10s twee style doll. So anyway, Carter, with no end to His generosity, introduced me to the head
[1:04] of one of the biggest toy companies. There's, like, only a few. It's a small industry. So he introduced me
[1:05] to, like, the most important person I could possibly meet, and I told him I had a toy line. I sent some
[1:06] pictures. He said I could do a meeting if I came to LA. Emma lived at La at the time. So I went to LA. I
[1:07] actually went twice, because the first time, I think I was like, driving there, and I had a meeting set, and
[1:08] then they tried to move it, and I tried to, tried to drive all night, but I couldn't. And basically I missed the
[1:09] meeting, and it was, it didn't work out, which was really sad. And then I did it again. A month or two
[1:10] later, Jeremy and I just flew there and did it. But anyway, I went in person, presented the toys to a big
[1:11] toy company, and how many people were in the room? So, yeah, it was like a table with probably, like
[1:12] five people, and so it was like designers and then the president of the company, and then just me and
[1:13] Jeremy, and I was telling them, like, just the most unrelated, unhelpful things. Like, I have this many
[1:14] people that read my blog every day, and they were like, okay, you know, and they were very polite, and
[1:15] they were very kind, but they did tell me in the meeting that, like, this is probably not going to go into
[1:16] production like they were straightforward. They didn't give me a full out rejection. They did that later, but
[1:17] they gave me a probably not. And then in the meeting, he asked me, he's like, but I really like your
[1:18] designs, and I really like the esthetic, would you like to design for other toy lines? And I said, No, this is
[1:19] my biggest dumbest mistake. Like, what stupid idiot? I said, No, I really just want to focus on this. And
[1:20] he was like, Okay. And so flew back to Missouri, got my rejection email, cried like I was surprised. And
[1:21] then this is the worst part of the story, and my biggest mistake, and then I put it in a box, and I never
[1:22] opened it again. And I still have the I think I've opened it once just to see what's still in there, and I still
[1:23] have the box in my garage. And it's just, it's a dream that died, and I don't think I would pick it back up,
[1:24] up again now, but I think that it's so sad, and there's so many ways that could have gone better at the
[1:25] time, if I would have made different choices. So they were very cute. Rest in peace. To my little dolls.
[1:26] There they were cute. Yeah, we should get them out. And very cute. The heads fall off and stuff my kids
[1:27] won't like other samples. Yeah, they're not real, not real choice. But they had great outfits. Okay, so
[1:28] then jump to my second story, which was from last year 2025 so I wrote my first novel. I failed so hard
[1:29] and fast I did my query where I tried to send it to agents, and it just wasn't fully like. I kind of knew it
[1:30] wasn't finished, but I don't think I knew, like, what else to do at the moment. And I think I was like,
[1:31] hoping that it was, like, close enough or something. I don't know what I was thinking anymore, because
[1:32] now I look back and I'm like, Girl, but I don't know. Sometimes it's hard to know when you're in it. And I
[1:33] think that's fair. I don't think it's like, you have to always know I think it's good to try things, and then
[1:34] maybe it's okay to realize, Oh, I'm not quite there yet. I think that's okay. I took a delusional leap, and I
[1:35] did like fall, and I think that it was good, and I don't regret it. I'm so glad I did it, because I learned so
[1:36] much from it. So I, you know, sent my novel out. It wasn't ready. It wasn't like, at the point it needed to
[1:37] be, got rejected. Like, first I got my hopes up so high, and then I got rejected so hard, so fast. And it
[1:38] was such a good experience, because immediately I started over, like, that week, like, I did not take a
[1:39] day off. I really took no time off. Like, I I agonized a little bit about, like, cutting off my query, because I
[1:40] did have to, like, kind of cut it off and email a few people that were still reading and be like, sorry, but I
[1:41] know this is a no, and I'm gonna try to do better. And I'm just just like, be back later. And. I did that and
[1:42] rewrote the whole book, spent the whole year, and then the best thing was I took, like, a class every
[1:43] month and read a writing craft book every month. So I learned and learned and learned and learned.
[1:44] Until last month, I was telling Emma I took a class that was just like a three hour one day thing, and I,
[1:45] like, didn't learn anything new. And I was like, Okay, I feel like I'm finally at this point, which felt really
[1:46] good, of just like, having a full understanding, you know, of basic stuff. So anyway, I rewrote the novel,
[1:47] and now I'm going to do the whole process again, and I I'm feeling like it's gonna have a better
[1:48] outcome, but we'll see. We will do an episode on it when our outcomes are in, and we'll fill you in. I'm
[1:49] sure it'll be a fun story. But the main takeaway from that experience is just mainly that I started over
[1:50] immediately. Instead of putting it in a box, instead of taking a break, I kept the box open. I ripped apart,
[1:51] you know, took, put one pile, everything I can still use one pile, everything that's for the trash, and
[1:52] started over. And I think that having that capacity is the reason that when I succeed like it will be the
[1:53] reason that I succeeded.
[1:54] Emma
[1:55] Yeah, I think too, like, you are like, taking the advice of others to make it better, whereas with the toys,
[1:56] you kind of, like, had your idea. I don't even know. I don't want to put words in your mouth, but I don't
[1:57] know if you were super open to hearing like, why they weren't a good fit for the market at the time, and
[1:58] how you could maybe educate yourself to become a better fit for the market. You know, your toys, and I
[1:59] think with your books, you are doing that, you're like, Okay, what about this? And it's not like you're
[2:00] willing to completely change the genre, because it's like, it is a certain thing. There's a fine line between
[2:01] being like, I'm just going to sell out, just I just want to succeed, versus I want to make my thing really
[2:02] good. Those are, like, different in my mind, and for me, it's easy to differentiate those two things,
[2:03] whereas I think sometimes it's hard to talk about because I know there is that idea in the world, and I'm
[2:04] like, selling out just means you sell your art. That's a big deal.
[2:05] Elsie
[2:06] I will say that when I first started, and when I up until the point I was querying my first draft last year that
[2:07] I did feel threatened by, like, a lot of writing advice, and I thought, like, like, save the cat was sort of a
[2:08] threat. And that, you know, I think that creative people sometimes have that mindset where you're like,
[2:09] I'm just gonna do this my way. And I did, and I got to see the outcome, and I'm glad I did, and then I'm
[2:10] glad also that I had the humility to be like, well, what can I learn? And it turns out that, you know, out of
[2:11] all the classes and all the books I read, there was advice I used that changed everything for me, and
[2:12] there was advice that I left behind that wasn't useful, but none of it was a threat, and none of it made
[2:13] my art less, you know, less of art. I think that information is good and learning is good and growing is
[2:14] good. And I think that the idea like staying closed off to advice was a dumb move, and I'm glad that I
[2:15] stopped doing that. Yeah, tell us your story of failure. I feel like I Okay. I really roasted myself just now.
[2:16] Emma
[2:17] Oh, we all fail. It's really not, yeah, but mine is. So I started writing this. I've mentioned before that, I've
[2:18] starting a newsletter, and it's going to be random, and one of the ideas on my list was basically
[2:19] something that's titled like, it's kind of like an essay that's like, the best career move I made in my 20s.
[2:20] But what that is the best career that I made in my 20s is was that I pursued something and completely
[2:21] failed at it, and then changed course. So my thing was, right after college, I moved to LA to try to be an
[2:22] actor. And I'd wanted to do that since I was 18. My parents asked me to go to college first, so I did, and
[2:23] I did it as fast as I could so I could move three year schedule. Yeah, three year schedule. And then I
[2:24] moved to LA, and in my mind, I was like, I'm gonna try to be an actor for two or three years, and if I feel
[2:25] like I can't get any traction, then maybe I'll go to law school or do something else. I didn't really have a
[2:26] plan at the moment yet. I'd kind of been interested in law school anyway, so I think that was kind of
[2:27] mistake number one, putting a timeline on something that you can't really you can't really control timing.
[2:28] You can work really hard. You can pursue something with your whole heart. You can't really control,
[2:29] like, when things work out for you. And I think if you really want something, you kind of have to just
[2:30] leave the door open on it, and that's hard to do when you need to make money. And I that's not lost on
[2:31] me. It surely wasn't lost on me at the time, because I had all sorts of random. Jobs so that I could pay
[2:32] my bills. Having to do that for way longer than I did would have been annoying and difficult at times,
[2:33] and frustrating and you know, so like, that's not lost on me anyway. So I moved to LA and I remember
[2:34] before moving, I would tell people that I was going to move to be an actor. Like a lot of my friends knew.
[2:35] My family obviously knew. But I also when I had people in my life who were only like sort of a friend, I
[2:36] often didn't talk about it. I wasn't necessarily embarrassed of my dream, but I also didn't know if it was
[2:37] going to work out, and I just kind of wanted to hide sometimes, and I don't think that was a mistake. I
[2:38] think that's natural, but I kind of think that I don't do that anymore. Like now, when I talk about fiction
[2:39] writing, which is my dream for the future, now, I just say that I'm going to keep writing fiction. I love
[2:40] writing. Here's what I'm writing right now. I don't ever say I'm going to be a New York Times bestseller. I
[2:41] hope for that. And if someone asked me, like, what would be a dream, I'd be like, that would be a
[2:42] dream. But I don't really feel like hiding because I don't really care, and I think that failing in my 20s kind
[2:43] of gave me that gift. So the end of the story, as you could probably guess, is I didn't make any traction
[2:44] on being an actor, and I also, along the way, over those three years, kind of figured out that one, I hated
[2:45] living away from my family, and two, I don't like the environment of acting. I really like having a work day
[2:46] where I'm completely alone. And I worked as an extra a lot, so I was on sets all the time. And yeah, the
[2:47] stars have a trailer, but like, when you're actually doing the work, you're in front of a lot of people,
[2:48] whether you're on a stage or filming for TV or movie, you're in front of lots and lots and lots of people.
[2:49] And I really don't like that feeling at all. So I was like, Oh, this was a really stupid thing to pick. Like,
[2:50] okay, lesson learned there, too. So anyway, so I moved home, and I had to kind of tell everyone, so
[2:51] once I moved back, that I wasn't going to be an actor anymore, and I was doing something new, and
[2:52] that felt very embarrassing and very like tail between your legs. But I think that it was actually a gift,
[2:53] because in so many ways, I feel like it gave me kind of this, like turtle shell of like armor. After that, I
[2:54] was like, All right, what do I want to do now? I'm going to start a food blog. I've kind of got into cooking
[2:55] these last few years. I started a blog right before I left la I'm going to lean into that a little bit, and I'm
[2:56] going to work with Elsie. And yeah, here we go. And I just never felt embarrassed after that. I had never
[2:57] really cared. I was just like, yeah, I already failed epically, and I'm still here, yeah, and it doesn't matter.
[2:58] And honestly, it was kind of fun. And so I just don't really feel worried about because I think a lot of
[2:59] times when I have friends who are telling me about something they'd like to try, you can tell when
[3:00] they're like, I'm a little nervous to tell you this, because I know it might not work out, and I don't want to
[3:01] look stupid, and I did that on a big scale, and so I just don't have that anymore. I'm like, I don't, I don't
[3:02] care. I don't care about looking stupid. I've already looked very stupid, and it didn't hurt that bad. It was
[3:03] like, Oh, this was a bad feeling. Oh, well, you know, like, it wasn't a big deal. And so I could move past it
[3:04] really quickly. And I think too, like, I got to, like, do a little adventure. I learned quite a few things about
[3:05] myself and things that I wanted for the future, like living at home and hopefully having more of a like
[3:06] people not looking at me, type schedule. And I also took a lot of lessons from acting and used them in
[3:07] other ways, which probably sounds crazy, but I think acting is actually like a really, if you have any
[3:08] interest in it, you should definitely take an acting class or an improv class or a stand up comedy class.
[3:09] It's such an interesting, fun craft that really makes you like get out there and do something kind of crazy.
[3:10] And I think that you can learn a lot of things about yourself, no matter if you want to do it professionally
[3:11] or not. So my lesson of failure was very much like a little painful and embarrassing, definitely, but I think
[3:12] the good things that came out of it were so valuable to me that I kind of like would recommend to
[3:13] anyone the first career you pick, make it big, and if you fail, it's a gift, because it kind of insulates you
[3:14] and makes you not afraid to try things from then on. Or that's how I what it worked for me.
[3:15] Elsie
[3:16] Yeah, no, I think that's, that's a beautiful story, yeah. I think that learning to fail with, like, your head up,
[3:17] like, with dignity is like, one of the first steps, right? Yeah. And then also, like, moving on. Like, you
[3:18] know, if you're like, you have to decide, like, we're gonna talk about both in this episode, when it is the
[3:19] right move to cut and run, give up, be like, never mind. I'm gonna actually do a hard pivot. And when it's
[3:20] the right move to double down and. And, you know, read the 10 more books and, like, try, like, try 10
[3:21] times harder and not give up. So both of those things are so valuable, and it is hard to make those
[3:22] decisions. But I think that, like, I don't know, for me, there's like, definitely, like, a little guiding voice
[3:23] inside of me, and I do think that it's gotten wiser with age. So yeah, I agree. Okay, so let's talk about
[3:24] starting over. So starting over is a skill. I listened to this podcast not that long ago called capacity for
[3:25] zero that I really liked that, and it was basically just saying, like your potential is determined by how
[3:26] willing you are to start over and over and over, to do better and better and better. And I it works really
[3:27] well in writing, because it, like, you literally start over a lot of the time, and then lots of other, you know,
[3:28] things in business, you know, we talk a lot about, like, the sunk cost fallacy. And you know, we've had a
[3:29] lot of things in our business where we got almost to launch on something and then canned it, like we
[3:30] have had all these and then we've had experiences where we doubled down on something and it
[3:31] worked, and then we've had experiences where we doubled down on something and it didn't work. It
[3:32] did not work. So, yeah, talk a little bit about how starting over is a skill you can develop.
[3:33] Emma
[3:34] Yeah. So one, I'll say it's really helpful to kind of remove that narrative of, like, at least I grew up with it
[3:35] that, like, quitters never win, that kind of thing. Not true at all. Sometimes you have to quit. So just kind
[3:36] of hold it in your mind. Like, whenever you're faced with a should I bail on this, or should I double
[3:37] down? Should I keep going with this dream, or this, you know, project I'm doing, or this chapter that I've
[3:38] started, or whatever it is, could be small thing, could be big thing. Whenever you're in that moment of
[3:39] like quitting bailing or doubling down, I kind of think you have to think like they're equal. Don't assign
[3:40] one of them more morality than the other. They are equal. You will either bail or you will double down.
[3:41] Neither is good, neither is bad. Just hold them in your heart that way if you can. Because I think for a
[3:42] long time I had that sense of like, if you quit, that's bad, that means that you're not trying hard enough
[3:43] that means that you're being a baby, that you know something like that, and it's like, nope. Sometimes
[3:44] you just quit. Sometimes you realize it's not the right fit. So there's no morality. There's no good or bad.
[3:45] So then I think once you are able to do that, then you can evaluate something a little bit easier. So let's
[3:46] say you're thinking about changing careers. Let's make it a big one. Then I think you can look at your
[3:47] situation without the well, how much time have I invested in this, and how many people have I told and
[3:48] like, do I look bad if I quit? It's like, nope, let's just look at it like, if the best thing that could happen
[3:49] happens, do you love that outcome? Is that a happy outcome? Is that a good ending to your story? So
[3:50] you get the job you want. You're doing the thing you you get the promotion, whatever is that like, what
[3:51] you really want, or if you even imagine that best case scenario is to you, if it's kind of ho hum or maybe
[3:52] even kind of bad, that's a good sign that you should quit. That's a good sign that you should choose
[3:53] that option that has no good or bad context to it. I think you also sometimes have to evaluate things.
[3:54] You know, if you're an artist and you pay your bills by doing your art, then you have to look at that. You
[3:55] have to say, Okay, if I keep going with this and it doesn't make money for another year or another five
[3:56] years, what's my plan for that? Am I okay with, you know, substitute teaching or waiting tables or
[3:57] whatever it is you do to keep pursuing this. If you're like, Yeah, I'm okay with that. Good sign. If you're
[3:58] like, No, I can't handle that anymore. I just want to find a different way to make a living and pay my bills
[3:59] and just kind of turn this creative thing into more of a hobby. If that feels like relief to you, then you
[4:00] should maybe do that. I mean, I think especially for creative endeavors, it's really hard to evaluate your
[4:01] own work, but you get better at it over time. So if you look at the thing you're working on and you're like,
[4:02] This isn't very good and I don't know how to make it better, that's a good sign that you should quit. I
[4:03] think that one's probably the hardest to do out of all the things I've just described, because, again, I
[4:04] think it's super hard to evaluate your own work because you're so close to it and it means so much to
[4:05] you. And that's normal, by the way. That's not like you have blinders on. It's like, no, everybody's this
[4:06] way. It's really hard to evaluate your own work, but you do get better at it over time. And if you can try
[4:07] to, like, divorce yourself from it for a second and look at it. If you're like, ah, you know what, I'm going to
[4:08] work on. The next thing, this novel idea isn't working this path, isn't it? You know, then that's definitely a
[4:09] sign that you should quit too. And if some of these things aren't happening, then it might be a sign that
[4:10] you should double down. But it's like, okay, if I double down, what does that mean? What does that look
[4:11] like? Like, how am I going to make this better? And a lot of times it does involve, I feel like we've
[4:12] brought this up a few times now, it does kind of involve humbling yourself. It usually has to do with I
[4:13] need to learn something, or I need to get advice, or I need to kind of give up a piece of this, which might
[4:14] mean kind of like, letting go of a little bit of ego so that I can make it better. And those are all really hard
[4:15] to do, but if you're open to those things, then doubling down might be the way to go. Do you have other
[4:16] things about starting over as a skill?
[4:17] Elsie
[4:18] Yes, I have some mindset shifts that helped me. Because in addition to failing a lot in my life, having a
[4:19] lot of wins, I have also given and received a ton of pep talks. Yeah, we are, like, expert pep talk givers. I
[4:20] think it's one of our It's like a constant rolling thing in my head of, like, Nah, you're okay. It's up, you
[4:21] know, like, yeah. Like, constant Yes, yes. In our next episode, we're, we're a little bit talking about giving
[4:22] yourself pep talks. So we'll we'll go more, we'll go deeper next week. Okay, so mine set shifts that
[4:23] helped the first one. This is like tough love, but I think it's just so so so freeing and healthy once you can
[4:24] embrace it. And my 20 year old self did not get this whatsoever. No one owes you in life, like that's like
[4:25] the main in any career, in any professional endeavor, it's not the fault of your boss, it's not the fault of
[4:26] your customer. It's not the you know, like blaming is it's easy, and I get it, and I've done it too, like it's
[4:27] easy to blame. But the truth is, no one owes you anything in your career or in your life. So, you know,
[4:28] stop blaming and start, you know, moving on to the next checklist, which is, how can I do it differently
[4:29] this time? So for me, the most important thing I think you can do is to stay evolving. Judge yourself by if
[4:30] you're growing, not by if you're getting to your goal yet. Because there some goals are easier to
[4:31] achieve than others. You know, yeah, there's lots of goals in life where you can get it on your first try,
[4:32] and there's goals that take, you know, decades to reach. And you know, knowing which one you're on, I
[4:33] think, is hard to do in the beginning, and sometimes that can be, like, very deflating. You know, that's
[4:34] why in certain careers, there's like, a huge drop off of people in year one and two, because they get in
[4:35] there, they have the stream, and then they realize, oh, this is way harder than I thought it was going to
[4:36] be, and more challenging, and kind of sucks, you know.
[4:37] Emma
[4:38] Could be super competitive, and they just aren't competitive and don't really want to do it. And it's like,
[4:39] yeah, that makes sense, which is fine. That's fine, but it might mean you need to quit, yeah, find
[4:40] something else and evolve. Yeah. And I think too, on the whole like, no one owes you thing, I do feel
[4:41] like too it's not that there aren't legitimate reasons to be mad that something didn't work for you. It's not
[4:42] that they're not real. It's just that, like, that time spent on being mad, like I could be mad at Google
[4:43] because they changed their algorithm and now all the AI snippets is killing my blogging industry, and I
[4:44] could be pissed about that as much as I want, and I'm not wrong, but all that energy spent there is
[4:45] energy not spent evolving into my ex career, which is better for me totally. So it's like, just do the thing
[4:46] that's good for you, because, you know, and it doesn't mean like, ignore anything that bad that's
[4:47] happening the world. No, I mean, like, we've joined the class action lawsuits and like I'm looking at the
[4:48] news, but I'm not going to spend my whole day mad that, you know, the blogging industry isn't what it
[4:49] used to be and can't be ever again because of AI. Instead, I'm going to spend my time doing my next
[4:50] thing, because that's what I have control of, and that's what's going to be good for Emma five years
[4:51] from now, Emma, five years from now, we'll be happy that I did that, so I'm gonna do that now for her,
[4:52] you know, you have the power to do that. So it's it's not even that things aren't legitimate, or, you know,
[4:53] you should ignore wrongdoing in the world. If that's the case, it's not really the case for us. But you
[4:54] know for you, it's just that, like, What's the best thing for you? It's probably working on your next thing.
[4:55] It's probably trying to evolve. It's trying to learn. It's starting on your next move. That's what's really
[4:56] going to help you have momentum. So that's what we would encourage you to spend your time on.
[4:57] Elsie
[4:58] I think that's great advice. So let's talk a little bit about when to cut and run. When giving up isn't always
[4:59] bad. I do think it's one of our strengths in business that we are willing to quit, and we do not drag out
[5:00] things we're done with pretty much ever.
[5:01] Emma
[5:02] Unless there's a good monetary reason to if we do that.
[5:03] Elsie
[5:04] But no, but we've, we've actually quit several things, probably before we needed to, but the reason why
[5:05] we decided to was for, like, mental health reasons or because it no longer aligned with our career goals
[5:06] and, like, the big picture of what we want for our 10 year plan, or, you know, things like that. I think that
[5:07] giving up is not always bad. So, like, let's do the example of acting, because I think it's I read during
[5:08] covid. I had a celebrity memoirs phase. Yeah, that was really something, and I read. So I thought it was
[5:09] a memoir, but it did. Ended up being an instructional book about how to become an actor. Jill Fisher's
[5:10] book. It was like her first book, and it, I can't remember what the title was, but it was about her journey
[5:11] of becoming an actor, and she was just basically explaining why it takes 10 years for a lot of people.
[5:12] And like, sometimes you get on, like, you start a flight of stairs, and you think it's going to be two flights,
[5:13] and it's 20, and by the time you are two flights up and you see, you know, you like, are able to see how
[5:14] much is ahead of you. Like you have the choice of either going back down and choosing a different
[5:15] flight of stairs, or maybe taking the elevator, or, you know, continuing up. And I think if you're gonna
[5:16] continue up. You need to do it with a growth mindset, where you're always learning, you're evolving,
[5:17] you're growing, but you're also, like, not making it your whole identity. Like, I think that you have to have
[5:18] some like resilience factors, like you have to fill your life with other things, yeah, where it's not like, the
[5:19] whole purpose of my life is, you know, being in a movie or becoming, you know, having a published
[5:20] novel or whatever, like that cannot be the whole purpose of your life. You have to fill those flights of
[5:21] steps with your own milestones that you have control over. Yeah. So, like, for me now, like, I'm just, like,
[5:22] gonna finish my next book. I have 100% control over that, and then I'm going to write another one. I
[5:23] have 100% control over that, and I'm going to continue reading my little shelf of books, 100% control.
[5:24] And I'm going to take a few more classes, maybe not as many, but take some more classes, 100%
[5:25] control. And, you know, keep going to my writing group. I have like, all these things on the list where I
[5:26] like 100% I can do all of these things, and then there is, like, another list to the side where I have
[5:27] basically 0% control on whether they happen or not. And I can believe in them, and I can hope for
[5:28] them, and I will keep working towards them, but I'm not I think to like, hold it too tightly is a mistake.
[5:29] Like, you need to hold it with sort of this energy of, like, it'll come when it comes, and like, it's all good,
[5:30] and I'm just gonna, kind of like, enjoy the list that's mine to do.
[5:31] Emma
[5:32] Yeah, and I think too, like, you know you talking about that, if you're doing the flight of stairs and you
[5:33] sort of realize, Oh my gosh, I have eight more flights to go. Wow. I thought I would be there by now. If
[5:34] you feel like you can't do the rest of that without just being in utter misery, you can maybe still climb the
[5:35] stairs. Should you though? Yeah, like, because you only get one life to live, it's debatable. Well, okay, in
[5:36] this life, this is it for now. So you know, what do you want out of it? Do you want to be happy or do you
[5:37] want to be miserable? And I just think, like, if you're on a path and you sort of realize I can't, like, I'm
[5:38] going to be miserable if I stay on this path, like I would quit. I would definitely consider quitting. And I
[5:39] also think if you're on a path and you're like, Oh, this is longer than I thought. Than I thought, there's
[5:40] some things about this that make me bummed. But you know what, I think I could still be pretty joyful
[5:41] going to my acting classes or going to my writing group, or, like, learning more. And then I'm gonna like,
[5:42] you know, have these other things going on in my life, and I'm gonna like, you know, lean into the joy
[5:43] there. Then, you know what, maybe you'll be able to double down and keep climbing the flights of
[5:44] stairs, and it's fine, but it's like, at the end of the day, you may achieve a goal that mattered to you, but
[5:45] like, the journey really matters too, because it's most of it, it's kind of the whole thing, one would argue.
[5:46] So can you be happy during it? And if the answer is no, that might, that might inform whether you
[5:47] should quit.
[5:48] Elsie
[5:49] Yeah, no, I love that. Okay, I want to tell one more story about a time we quit that we're glad we did,
[5:50] because this can happen a lot in careers. I think this is one of this is a very common early career
[5:51] experience. So when we were in our 20s, Emma and I opened a local store together, and it was
[5:52] beautiful. I still, once in a while see pictures on Pinterest that I don't know where they're even from, but,
[5:53] like, just pictures of the store, and it gives me a heartache. It's so beautiful. I would love to dress those
[5:54] windows again. It was on a historic Street. Was in our hometown. It was like, it was gorgeous. It was
[5:55] the. Gorgeous historic building, like, yeah, at Christmas time, we had like 17 trees in the windows.
[5:56] Emma had this cupcake part of the business, and then it was a vintage store with dresses. And it was,
[5:57] it was adorable. It was a dream come true. It was a it was a dream that, from the time I was a little child,
[5:58] I thought would be my dream life. But when we actually experience what it was like to own a store and
[5:59] work there every day. First of all, we worked there six days a week, and we made $15,000 our first year
[6:00] of business. Not great. Second of all, so there was a there was a financial problem that was serious,
[6:01] like it was serious, and maybe if it still would have been like our absolute dream in life and brought us
[6:02] so much joy, maybe there would have been a way to pivot and fix the store. I don't know, but what I
[6:03] actually learned, I won't speak for you, but I think we're the same. What I actually learned is that I don't
[6:04] like waking up and going to the same place and working in the same like, I don't want to work retail
[6:05] every day for the rest of my life. I love a work from home schedule where I'm working on different
[6:06] projects all the time, and I enjoy, like, a lot of alone time. We're both introverts, you know? We just
[6:07] have, like, there's just things about it where I was like, I actually like, I pretty quickly knew that I did not
[6:08] enjoy, I didn't look forward to going to work every day the way that you should at a dream job. And
[6:09] that's not good. And I will say, like, we had a lot of fun together. So it had its ups and downs, like it's still
[6:10] very happy memory in my mind. But I think that I learned, and then I also knew, like, there was this
[6:11] thing in the back of my mind where I knew, like, I do want to have kids, and this is impossible. This is an
[6:12] impossible business to make work. Actually, like, financially, it might have been impossible no matter
[6:13] what, but it also would not have been, like, the right move for someone who wanted to have a kid and,
[6:14] like, start that kind of lifestyle, it's just a very different trajectory. So anyway, it was one of the hardest
[6:15] decisions, but I think really good, and we were, we were so lucky that during the first year we had our
[6:16] very slow, very unsuccessful business, that that was when we started blogging every single day, and
[6:17] that took off, and it gave us a soft landing and a pivot that was very obvious, because we kind of just
[6:18] followed the momentum and the money in our business. So I'm very thankful for that. We didn't just
[6:19] have to, like, cold quit and start something new, you know, but even if we would have, like, it was clear.
[6:20] So, yeah, if you have that in your life where you you think something's your dream, and then you try it
[6:21] and you realize it's not like that does happen. And just know that, like, it doesn't make you a bad
[6:22] person. It doesn't make you ungrateful, no, it just sometimes isn't a fit.
[6:23] Emma
[6:24] Yeah, yeah. There's no morality to quitting or sticking to something. I mean, you can gut check your
[6:25] own attitude, but attitudes are attitudes. They don't have anything to do with the outside circumstances.
[6:26] For the most part. It's just like an internal thing. So yeah, it can be happening either way, yeah, but I do
[6:27] remember you were a lot more emotional as we were cleaning out the store, and I had already done my
[6:28] big failure of La so I was like, get the dumpster in here. We're moving on.
[6:29] Elsie
[6:30] I still had my total shell aches my heart, but 100% it was the right decision. And I think that's also like,
[6:31] good to know is that sometimes it's both, like, sometimes you look back at that time and you like, have
[6:32] a real nostalgia for it, but you also know that that wasn't the life you wanted to continue pursuing. Yeah.
[6:33] So, yeah, I hope this episode was helpful. I i love this subject, and I think if you are in the process of
[6:34] failing, or if you just know to you that it Yeah, just know that it's an opportunity like you get to choose if
[6:35] you have a good fail or a bad fail you do so you can do it. Yeah. You might not get to choose if you fail,
[6:36] yeah, but to choose if it's good or bad, yes, yeah, yeah. Wonderful subject. Loved it. Okay, let's move
[6:37] on to our book report.
[6:38] Emma
[6:39] Okay, I recently read Uprooted by Naomi Novik, and I loved it, so I'm already a big fan of hers. I read
[6:40] the skull of Mance series, okay, which is like Harry Potter, but dark kind of, it's not really Harry Potter,
[6:41] but dark, it's, it's like kids at a school, they're all learning to do magic, and the school's constantly trying
[6:42] to kill them. They have to be there to learn. It's sort of, it's a very like adversarial take on magic world.
[6:43] It's really fun. And I just think she's a marvelous writer, and she also kind of vibes like. Like she's almost
[6:44] doing retellings of grims, fairy tales or something like that. Is how it vibes. So this one uprooted was so
[6:45] much fun. I loved it so much. I was like, neglecting taking care of my kids, to read this book. I was so
[6:46] into it. You know how you get when you're like, this one's so good. Just leave me alone. I've made your
[6:47] snack go over there. It's like, yeah, I just have to finish this chapter, you know, like you're just hanging in
[6:48] there. So anyway, it was, it was so much fun. But I love a book about magic. This one is probably one
[6:49] where it didn't feel like magic from the modern times real life, like someone doing a ritual with candles
[6:50] that I could go by myself at Target right now, it wasn't like that, but there is so much of them saying
[6:51] spells. And I don't know if she was kind of working off of Latin. I'm sure you could look up an interview
[6:52] and she would tell you, but I felt like I was in their world and like I was learning magic alongside our
[6:53] main character, who sort of comes to it very naturally and very messily, and the magician who's
[6:54] teaching her, he's very like straight laced and perfect and clean, and she's very like tumbling in the
[6:55] mud, but like, she's very powerful and doesn't know it. And so they're sort of that dynamic between
[6:56] them, where they're they're opposites, but they also come to really care for one another. And it was, it
[6:57] was just so good. Like, I loved this book so so much. If you like magic at all, you should definitely read
[6:58] it. And I don't, it's one of those books too. That's like, it doesn't even fit a perfect genre. Other it's
[6:59] fantasy, obviously, because it has magic. But other than that, I'm like, There's romance. It's also very
[7:00] them versus the world. It's got a lot going on, and it's really fun. And I felt transported to their place for a
[7:01] while, and it was just lovely. That's a great review. I'm a Naomi, no big fan girl, though, for sure, all the
[7:02] way like, I'm like, sign me up for all our books. I love them.
[7:03] Elsie
[7:04] So love it. Oh my gosh, is it ya or adult?
[7:05] Emma
[7:06] I'm not really sure. I think it could be ya or it might be new adult, because the protagonist is young, but
[7:07] it's more adult feeling than your average ya to me, so I don't know.
[7:08] Elsie
[7:09] So I am reading The Correspondent by Virginia Evans. So this book is so unique, I love it. So it's my
[7:10] first so I'm trying to learn how to be a person who reads before bed. And this is a new journey for me. I
[7:11] have never had I've never had this habit before in my life, and I decided this winter is my time. I'm going
[7:12] to become a person who reads before bed, because it will give me an opportunity to read probably, like,
[7:13] a dozen more paper books in a year. And it's just like, I don't know, I just need that little bit of time in my
[7:14] day anyway. So this book is an epistolary novel, so it's written in letters. There's a couple emails, but it's
[7:15] most of the whole thing is letters. So it's called the correspondent. It's about an older woman in I think,
[7:16] her 70s, who is just writing to friends and family and also to famous authors. So I'm gonna do a few
[7:17] spoilers. This is not, I'll just say, like, this is not the kind of spoiler that would ruin a book for me. But if
[7:18] you're like, I hate all spoilers. Then fast forward through this part for sure. So she writes letters to Joan
[7:19] Didion, to Anne Patchett and to Kazu Ishiguro, and they always write back. And I'm only about actually
[7:20] halfway through the book, so I can't give the full but I don't know. I just wanted to do it for my book
[7:21] report anyway, because I'm so excited about it. But it also has elements of suspense, so she's getting
[7:22] letters that are kind of threatening throughout the book. It also has another older man who's trying to
[7:23] date her aggressively, and she's rejecting him aggressively. So that's a lot of fun. And then it has this
[7:24] storyline of regret and sorrow from her first marriage where she lost a child. So it goes in a lot of
[7:25] different directions. It also has a lot of gossip and talking in an old lady way that I love so on. I just think
[7:26] it's a wonderful novel. I understand why so many people are into it, because it just like scratches all
[7:27] these different itches, right? Like, it, it does so much with so little. And then also, like, the pacing,
[7:28] because most of the letters are between one and three pages long. Like, sometimes it's even, like, half
[7:29] a page full of writing. It, like, just moves so well, like, there's just yeah, something really nice about it.
[7:30] So I've read other epistolary novels in the past, and this, I would say, is definitely my favorite one,
[7:31] where it feels so far like a complete story that's building in layers and like I'm I'm hooked, like I don't
[7:32] know. So, yeah, very fun, yeah, because I've been seeing this on the New York Times bestseller list.
[7:33] Hmm, and I don't know, just like, I read whatever little blurb was available, and I was like, I don't know if
[7:34] this is going to be for me. It sounds very literary. It's probably like, great writing. But is it going to be
[7:35] fun? I guess was where my brain went, and you're making it sound very fun. I'm like, little bit of gossipy
[7:36] talking from an old lady. Sign me up all of a sudden. Yes, very fun in a grandma way. Yeah, that sells
[7:37] me. Yeah, yeah. It's great. I love it. I'll, probably will try passing it to my grandma, who's 91 after
[7:38] whereas in just like, see if she likes it or not, because I feel like she's gonna, like, have problems with it,
[7:39] which I love, like, I love baiting my grandma.
[7:40] Emma
[7:41] I gave her my my sexy novel for Christmas. I was hoping to get you know who knows what she was
[7:42] gonna say. She was obviously a very sweet, supportive grandma, but she was like, I loved these
[7:43] characters. I love their dialog. The sex was too much for me, but that's okay, and it was great. Like, she
[7:44] was like, really sweet about it. It was very funny. She's readall my novels.
[7:45] Elsie
[7:46] I love it. I cannot wait. I'm gonna give her mine soon, and I cannot wait to get a review from her. Like it's
[7:47] the only review in the whole world that really matters.
[7:48] Emma
[7:49] I honestly, if I could get it published and put that on it, I'd be like, can I put from my grandma that just
[7:50] says the sex was too much for me, but that's okay. I feel like that'll sell it.
[7:51] Elsie
[7:52] A quote from Norma Chapman. It will do it. I love it. Okay, we're gonna pass it on to a joke or a fact with
[7:53] Nova. Hey, Nova, what do you have for us today?
[7:54] Nova
[7:55] A joke.
[7:56] Elsie
[7:57] Okay.
[7:58] Nova
[7:59] Why didn't the shrimp share his treasure?
[8:00] Elsie
[8:01] Why?
[8:02] Nova
[8:03] Because he was selfish.
[8:04] Elsie
[8:05] We'll see you next week.
[8:06] Nova
[8:07] Bye.
[8:08] Emma
[8:09] Thanks so much for listening. If you have hot takes, things you want to hear about, book
[8:10] recommendations for us or episode ideas. Email us podcast@abeautifulmess.com. Thanks for being
[8:11] here.

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