# 145. Seeing into the minds of others, with Ellen Muehlberger

An episode of [Byzantium & Friends](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1480963005), 4 Dec 2025, 1 h 03 min.

Audio: https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/eqn9gycbfyn6kpy4/EllenMuehlbergerUnseen.mp3

A conversation with Ellen Muehlberger (University of Michigan) about how some people in late antiquity tried to model, confirm, or interpret what they thought was going on in the minds of others. We briefly talk about the genre of the lecture book, and then about classroom exercises in impersonation (were they exercises in empathy or not?) and breaking into houses to see what people had in their private quarters. The conversation is based on Ellen's recent book Things Unseen: Essays on Evidence, Knowledge, and the Late Ancient World (University of California Press 2025).

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