# Should Fraternities be banned? A Cornell Alum speaks out.

An episode of [Two Ts In A Pod with Teddi Mellencamp and Tamra Judge](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1477524410), 24 Oct 2026, 32 min.

Audio: https://podtrac.com/pts/redirect.mp3/pscrb.fm/rss/p/mgln.ai/e/28/traffic.omny.fm/d/clips/e73c998e-6e60-432f-8610-ae210140c5b1/c8c5d667-53e2-4f5d-bcb1-b32a01314a62/829f79a1-057f-41c3-a344-b4ed004c80d5/audio.mp3?utm_source=Podcast&in_playlist=59f37943-e628-4810-8c3b-ae2b00156477

This episode discusses sexual violence, which may be difficult or triggering for some listeners. If you or someone you know has experienced sexual violence, support is available through the RAINN National Sexual Assault Hotline at 800-656-HOPE (4673) or rainn.org. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

## Transcript

[0:00] Speaker 1: The following episode will be discussing themes of sexual assault.
[0:03] Speaker 1: If you or anyone you know is a victim of
[0:05] Speaker 1: sexual assault or abuse, call RAINN's Sexual Assault Hotline at 1-800-656-HOPE.
[0:12] Speaker 2: That's 1-800-656-4673.
[0:13] Speaker 1: Hi, you.
[0:18] Speaker 3: Guys. Welcome back to another episode of Dirty Rush. I
[0:20] Speaker 3: am Jen Fessler, your host, and I am joined by
[0:23] Speaker 3: my friend, Alisa Donovan.
[0:25] Speaker 4: Hi, Jen.
[0:25] Speaker 5: Hi, Jen. Hi, my friend.
[0:27] Speaker 3: And we are continuing our conversation today about the Cornell
[0:29] Speaker 3: 7 case. And we have a Cornell alumni on today
[0:33] Speaker 3: to talk more about the case.
[0:35] Speaker 2: I'm really looking forward to this conversation.
[0:37] Speaker 6: Chloe Akers is just an incredibly impressive human being. She
[0:42] Speaker 6: is obviously well-educated. She was a defense attorney for many,
[0:46] Speaker 6: many years. She works in politics. She's very articulate. And
[0:51] Speaker 6: I feel like she's really going to bring a lot
[0:54] Speaker 6: of nuance and clarity to what's going on right now.
[1:00] Speaker 7: Yeah.
[1:00] Speaker 3: I mean, I can only imagine what it's like right
[1:03] Speaker 3: now being a Cornell alumni, right? So I have a
[1:08] Speaker 3: bunch of friends that went to Cornell and I know
[1:09] Speaker 3: a bunch of kids that not only went, but are
[1:12] Speaker 3: there now. It's a difficult time to be affiliated or,
[1:17] Speaker 3: you know, let's see what Chloe has to say. And
[1:19] Speaker 3: I am as well, just so excited to talk to her. Hi, Chloe.
[1:22] Speaker 5: Hi, Chloe.
[1:23] Speaker 7: Hi, Chloe.
[1:24] Speaker 4: How are you all? Thank you so much for having me.
[1:27] Speaker 5: Thank you so much for joining us. We really appreciate it.
[1:30] Speaker 2: We're both very excited that you're here.
[1:31] Speaker 4: We are.
[1:32] Speaker 5: We really are. So we're going to jump in, if
[1:34] Speaker 5: that's okay with you.
[1:36] Speaker 4: Yeah.
[1:36] Speaker 3: We know that you are a Cornell alumni yourself. And
[1:41] Speaker 3: it's funny because I don't know if either of you
[1:43] Speaker 3: guys follow Bill Maher, but he just did a whole
[1:47] Speaker 3: bit about how he was a Cornell alumni and how, well,
[1:52] Speaker 3: he hated Cornell.
[1:52] Speaker 5: He thought it sucked.
[1:53] Speaker 3: But how he's sort of almost glad that Cornell is finally,
[1:56] Speaker 3: as he put it, eating like, what did he say,
[1:57] Speaker 3: like a pie or something? How do you feel about
[2:00] Speaker 3: Cornell at this point and how this has all developed?
[2:04] Speaker 4: Well, I had, I guess, a different experience than Bill
[2:07] Speaker 4: Maher at Cornell. I absolutely, I loved Cornell. I was
[2:10] Speaker 4: in a sorority.
[2:11] Speaker 5: I had.
[2:14] Speaker 7: One of the best experiences in my sorority when I
[2:17] Speaker 7: was there.
[2:17] Speaker 4: I got a tremendous education, but I will say, In.
[2:23] Speaker 7: Thinking about my experience at Cornell, especially in the context
[2:27] Speaker 7: of what has just emerged, there was a real gender
[2:31] Speaker 7: divide at Cornell. It occurred to me that I left
[2:33] Speaker 7: college with about 10 incredible female friends, no male friends.
[2:38] Speaker 7: We didn't really hang out with guys. And I'm a
[2:41] Speaker 7: former criminal defense lawyer. I work in politics now.
[2:44] Speaker 4: I have a lot of male friends in adult life.
[2:47] Speaker 7: And so it was sort of jarring to And I
[2:49] Speaker 7: started to think back to that time and I was like,
[2:51] Speaker 7: we were really separated from the guys at school.
[2:56] Speaker 4: And the fraternity culture at Cornell.
[3:00] Speaker 7: In really thinking about it, like 20 years after graduation
[3:04] Speaker 7: and in reading what was contained in Jane Doe's civil,
[3:09] Speaker 7: you know, lawsuit. It was a really dangerous situation. The
[3:14] Speaker 7: entire framework at Cornell was dangerous. And it's remarkable to
[3:18] Speaker 7: me that the administration has not been forced to step
[3:21] Speaker 7: in and set some ground rules until this point. I mean,
[3:25] Speaker 7: there was no threat of consequence at Cornell for anything
[3:32] Speaker 7: or anyone.
[3:33] Speaker 4: And I hadn't really thought.
[3:35] Speaker 7: About it until the last few weeks as I was
[3:37] Speaker 7: re-examining my own experience. And there were great things about it.
[3:41] Speaker 7: But there were things about it that, you know, it
[3:43] Speaker 7: was really dangerous.
[3:45] Speaker 5: How long ago? When did you graduate?
[3:47] Speaker 4: I graduated in 2005.
[3:48] Speaker 7: So I was at Cornell from 2001 to 2005. There
[3:53] Speaker 7: were no Ubers. There were no cell phones. Obviously a very, like,
[3:58] Speaker 7: different time. But one of the things, you know, people
[4:00] Speaker 7: have asked me a lot about my experience and being
[4:03] Speaker 7: a lawyer and talking about this issue. And the biggest
[4:06] Speaker 7: thing that stands out to me is I grew up
[4:09] Speaker 7: in the South, right? So I'm from the SEC culture.
[4:12] Speaker 7: I remember going to UT, University of Tennessee campus and
[4:14] Speaker 7: seeing the fraternity row and the fraternity houses. What people
[4:18] Speaker 7: I think don't really understand unless you've been on Cornell's
[4:20] Speaker 7: campus is the fraternity houses at Cornell are not houses.
[4:24] Speaker 4: They're mansions.
[4:25] Speaker 7: They are labyrinths of rooms across multiple stories. And unlike
[4:30] Speaker 7: a Southern university where you have like a frat row
[4:33] Speaker 7: that's right in the middle of campus, the frat houses
[4:36] Speaker 7: at Cornell are like dotted all around one of the biggest,
[4:39] Speaker 7: most remote campuses in the country.
[4:42] Speaker 4: And it's very remote and it's very secluded.
[4:46] Speaker 7: And I just remember thinking about how it felt dark
[4:51] Speaker 7: all the time when you were around in some of
[4:54] Speaker 7: those places. And so I've reflected on that as well,
[4:57] Speaker 7: just the landscape and the remoteness of the university and
[5:01] Speaker 7: then the fraternity houses within the university.
[5:03] Speaker 4: And how when you, Combine that with drugs and alcohol
[5:08] Speaker 4: and a feeling of.
[5:11] Speaker 7: Entitlement that sometimes pervades institutions like Cornell, it is.
[5:14] Speaker 4: A recipe for disaster.
[5:16] Speaker 7: I got a great education, and I had a really
[5:19] Speaker 7: tremendous experience and left with.
[5:22] Speaker 4: So many wonderful female friends.
[5:24] Speaker 7: But it is a complex, complicated place, and it needs
[5:28] Speaker 7: to take a hard look in the mirror.
[5:31] Speaker 5: Right.
[5:32] Speaker 6: So many things that you're saying, I I have a
[5:35] Speaker 6: million questions and things to say, and not the least
[5:38] Speaker 6: of which is, in your own words, saying you now
[5:43] Speaker 6: have reflected on your experience and have kind of downloaded
[5:48] Speaker 6: a bit more of what that was. I think this
[5:50] Speaker 6: is so important that we talk about this from... female's
[5:55] Speaker 6: perspectives there is so much that we do just to
[5:58] Speaker 6: take care of ourselves on a daily basis in any
[6:02] Speaker 6: circumstance and in any environment and part of that is
[6:07] Speaker 6: monitoring how we how we dress how we what we
[6:11] Speaker 6: say all those sorts of things that has been talked
[6:13] Speaker 6: about forever but this whole idea of the things that
[6:17] Speaker 6: we accept as normal because they have been normalized And
[6:24] Speaker 6: so it isn't until retrospect or when somebody opens the
[6:28] Speaker 6: door a little and says, hey, there's something wrong with this.
[6:31] Speaker 6: And then you say, oh, gosh, really? There was a
[6:35] Speaker 6: lot wrong with that. And it's like this breath of
[6:39] Speaker 6: relief or release. And it's such a big topic that is,
[6:48] Speaker 6: in my opinion, entirely related to misogyny and how disproportionately
[6:53] Speaker 6: sexual violence happens to women. And I know this podcast
[6:57] Speaker 6: is about fraternities and sorority and more of the, Jen
[7:01] Speaker 6: has said, you know, more of the kind of jovial
[7:04] Speaker 6: and community-driven parts of it. But I think it's impossible
[7:08] Speaker 6: to talk about this and not discuss whether or not
[7:11] Speaker 6: fraternity culture is rape culture. And these ways that men
[7:16] Speaker 6: are taught about their masculinity and the bro code and
[7:20] Speaker 6: how you don't do anything, you protect them at any cost.
[7:24] Speaker 4: Yeah.
[7:25] Speaker 7: It's like, yeah, I think it's, it's fascinating to think
[7:31] Speaker 7: about what happens when young men get together. And then
[7:36] Speaker 7: sometimes there's really great, amazing, incredible things that come out
[7:40] Speaker 7: of that.
[7:40] Speaker 4: Sometimes there's really dark, violent things that come out of that.
[7:44] Speaker 7: And, you know, to your point about taking a moment
[7:48] Speaker 7: and thinking through and processing something, I think it's so
[7:52] Speaker 7: fascinating that that's really what happened here with Jane Doe,
[7:56] Speaker 7: that after this incident and what I would characterize, and
[8:01] Speaker 7: I am a former criminal defense lawyer, which this often
[8:03] Speaker 7: blows people's minds.
[8:04] Speaker 4: I'm like, I was a criminal lawyer for 15 years.
[8:07] Speaker 4: I defended clients.
[8:08] Speaker 7: I've never prosecuted cases, but I believe based on the
[8:11] Speaker 7: evidence and well, what's in the public sphere that she
[8:14] Speaker 7: was assaulted. But after her assault, she went back. to
[8:19] Speaker 7: her sorority house and had conversations with her friends. And
[8:22] Speaker 7: it was through that processing and through that downloading and
[8:26] Speaker 7: reflecting that she had that moment that I've had 20
[8:29] Speaker 7: years later in a much different context of saying, wait,
[8:33] Speaker 7: I don't know if what happened to me was right.
[8:37] Speaker 7: I don't think I perceived it how it actually was.
[8:40] Speaker 7: And so I think it's so interesting that I think
[8:43] Speaker 7: one of the reasons that women across the country have just.
[8:47] Speaker 4: Rallied behind Jane Doe.
[8:49] Speaker 7: And this story has like kind of taken us by
[8:53] Speaker 7: storm and is so emotional is for that reason that
[8:56] Speaker 7: all of us at some point in our lives have
[9:00] Speaker 7: had these moments where we look back and we go,
[9:03] Speaker 7: that wasn't okay.
[9:04] Speaker 5: That is so true.
[9:05] Speaker 3: That took a lot of therapy for me personally to
[9:09] Speaker 3: get to a point. I don't get specific, but like
[9:13] Speaker 3: there's things that have happened, like things that have happened
[9:14] Speaker 3: to all of us, years of therapy and, And all
[9:17] Speaker 3: of a sudden I was like, through this wonderful therapist
[9:20] Speaker 3: I have, oh wait, her sort of reading it wasn't okay.
[9:27] Speaker 3: And accepting it, moving on with my life, however it
[9:30] Speaker 3: affected me, not facing it. And then years later, all
[9:34] Speaker 3: of a sudden like, holy shit, that happened.
[9:37] Speaker 5: Yeah, that wasn't good.
[9:38] Speaker 7: Yeah, and people have asked me about how, My outrage
[9:45] Speaker 7: for the prosecutor in particular in Ithaca in this case
[9:48] Speaker 7: and his total lack of diligence around an investigation or
[9:52] Speaker 7: taking this seriously.
[9:53] Speaker 4: And, you know, as a person.
[9:55] Speaker 7: Who's defended these cases, the complexity around victims. making statements
[10:01] Speaker 7: and describing what happened to them and understanding that their
[10:05] Speaker 7: statements and their version and their recollection changes. And the
[10:08] Speaker 7: fact that it changes does not mean that a crime
[10:11] Speaker 7: wasn't committed. It's just a whole part of trauma-informed responses.
[10:17] Speaker 7: And really great prosecutors. And I've been up against some
[10:21] Speaker 7: really great prosecutors and prosecutors who specialize in sex crimes
[10:24] Speaker 7: tend to be some of the most passionate, committed prosecutors
[10:27] Speaker 7: I've ever worked with. I've seen a skilled prosecutor take
[10:31] Speaker 7: a case to a jury where a victim has given
[10:34] Speaker 7: two or three or four slightly different versions of events.
[10:38] Speaker 7: And I've been the one on the defense side challenging
[10:41] Speaker 7: those differences. And a skilled prosecutor is can take my
[10:45] Speaker 7: argument and shove it into the ground by presenting to
[10:47] Speaker 7: the jury the realities of trauma and recollection and understanding
[10:51] Speaker 7: around really, really horrible things that happened to us. And
[10:54] Speaker 7: so it made me so angry when I read the
[10:59] Speaker 7: district attorney in Ithaca, his statement around why he didn't
[11:03] Speaker 7: even do any additional investigation and just sort of wrote
[11:05] Speaker 7: this whole thing off after reading something. And I just thought,
[11:10] Speaker 7: You don't even have to be that trauma-informed or nuanced
[11:13] Speaker 7: to understand what we're talking about.
[11:15] Speaker 5: Life.
[11:15] Speaker 4: Right. But I do think women in particular, there's.
[11:19] Speaker 7: Just so many times when we look back on something,
[11:21] Speaker 7: whether it's two weeks or 20 years, and say- So true.
[11:25] Speaker 4: That wasn't right.
[11:25] Speaker 7: Yeah.
[11:26] Speaker 6: It's like the opposite of what I'm talking about with this,
[11:32] Speaker 6: the bro code and the fraternity sort of culture, that
[11:38] Speaker 6: systemic support- When women don't have that from the entire culture,
[11:43] Speaker 6: it's like we respond the other way. Then we have
[11:48] Speaker 6: the burden of, which we do anyway, still have the
[11:51] Speaker 6: burden of proof is on us to prove over and
[11:53] Speaker 6: over again just how horrific an experience was. And I
[11:57] Speaker 6: think it's something that people don't understand about trauma and abuse.
[12:04] Speaker 6: No one wants to be, Jane Doe does not want
[12:06] Speaker 6: to be talking about this. I would venture to say.
[12:11] Speaker 6: I do not know her, but I can't imagine that
[12:14] Speaker 6: this is something that this person is enjoying going through.
[12:19] Speaker 6: So until we have a greater support for women, I
[12:28] Speaker 6: don't know how this changes. What do you think that
[12:31] Speaker 6: Cornell University can do to help prevent incidents like this?
[12:36] Speaker 4: Oh, I've got a list.
[12:37] Speaker 5: Oh, great.
[12:38] Speaker 7: I mean, look, I would say first and foremost, there
[12:42] Speaker 7: is I think one of the strongest ways to potentially
[12:46] Speaker 7: begin to prevent some of this activity is to is
[12:49] Speaker 7: for Cornell University.
[12:51] Speaker 4: To hire independent, trained.
[12:54] Speaker 7: Sexual assault investigators. So every police department in every reasonable
[13:00] Speaker 7: size city or town will have at least one or
[13:02] Speaker 7: two detectives who specialize in investigating sex crimes.
[13:07] Speaker 5: SVU, we just watched.
[13:09] Speaker 4: Yes, it's a real thing. And there's a difference too
[13:13] Speaker 4: between a patrol cop and a detective.
[13:16] Speaker 7: Detectives are trained police officers who are known to be
[13:20] Speaker 7: investigating cases. I think that if Cornell were to hire
[13:25] Speaker 7: a couple of very serious, very well-trained investigators and let
[13:29] Speaker 7: the entire student body know that they've been hired, And
[13:32] Speaker 7: start taking it seriously. And the threat of consequence, like
[13:36] Speaker 7: this is something that it gets a little philosophical, but
[13:39] Speaker 7: I'm like, what keeps our society running? Like what keeps
[13:42] Speaker 7: us in the lanes of morality in large part is
[13:46] Speaker 7: a threat of consequence, right? Like I, you know, like
[13:49] Speaker 7: we know that if you come, if you drive drunk.
[13:51] Speaker 7: that the penalties are stiff, and they're severe, and they're mandatory.
[13:55] Speaker 7: And so it stops people from driving drunk. Now, of course,
[13:58] Speaker 7: I'm not robbing banks just because there's a law against it.
[14:02] Speaker 4: It's morally and ethically wrong.
[14:04] Speaker 7: But the law and the swift arm of justice coming
[14:09] Speaker 7: to bear when you break a rule is an incredibly
[14:13] Speaker 7: powerful motivator to keep people in line. And so to me,
[14:18] Speaker 7: if Cornell were to hire the right experienced officers to
[14:23] Speaker 7: join its police force, make it very clear that that
[14:26] Speaker 7: has happened. Make it very clear that this will be
[14:30] Speaker 7: seriously taken with swift and fair justice and start to
[14:35] Speaker 7: enforce some consequences. I think like that is one way
[14:40] Speaker 7: that you can start to address this. I think there's
[14:43] Speaker 7: a lot of education around consent. I think that's good.
[14:47] Speaker 7: I don't think that's ever going to be a bad thing.
[14:49] Speaker 7: But I'm sort of from the, I'm from the South.
[14:52] Speaker 7: I'm from the place where like, you do or you
[14:55] Speaker 7: don't do stuff a lot out of fear. And there
[14:58] Speaker 7: is no fear up there at Cornell. Like I remember
[15:00] Speaker 7: being at those parties and it never even occurred to me, y'all,
[15:04] Speaker 7: that like the cops would come. I think strengthening the
[15:18] Speaker 7: law enforcement elements around sexual violence and on college campuses
[15:24] Speaker 7: and explaining this isn't just a title nine hearing.
[15:27] Speaker 4: Okay.
[15:28] Speaker 7: If you are found to have assaulted someone, you're getting arrested, handcuffs,
[15:34] Speaker 7: you're going to jail. You have to make a bond.
[15:36] Speaker 7: You have to hire a lawyer. Like there's, I think
[15:40] Speaker 7: that is, is really strong. And, and, and title nine.
[15:42] Speaker 4: Yeah.
[15:43] Speaker 7: It's, it changes with each administration. So it can get
[15:46] Speaker 7: a little weaker. It can get a little stronger. Um,
[15:49] Speaker 7: And Biden, I think, tried to change some of the
[15:53] Speaker 7: original Trump administration's rules back to have a little more
[15:57] Speaker 7: strength and was blocked from doing so.
[15:59] Speaker 4: So it's really been politicized in a way that is disappointing.
[16:02] Speaker 5: Yeah.
[16:03] Speaker 4: Yeah.
[16:03] Speaker 3: Because you go on to these campuses and there is,
[16:05] Speaker 3: you know, every single one. And again, I've toured I
[16:08] Speaker 3: probably toured 20 college campuses and they all purport to
[16:12] Speaker 3: be very aware of. of what is necessary to keep
[16:16] Speaker 3: the students safe and to keep the women students safe.
[16:19] Speaker 5: And yet here we are.
[16:21] Speaker 6: This cements, it solidifies exactly what I'm saying, that this
[16:26] Speaker 6: is about a culture of misogyny that is so deeply
[16:29] Speaker 6: embedded in so many institutions and in our own culture
[16:34] Speaker 6: as in this country, that we're already doing things in
[16:39] Speaker 6: order to make telling my daughter, don't go down the
[16:43] Speaker 6: street at night, have a friend, do it.
[16:45] Speaker 2: All of these things, we've normalized it.
[16:48] Speaker 6: To such a degree that there has to be a
[16:52] Speaker 6: dismantling of all of it. And I think to your point, Chloe,
[16:56] Speaker 6: that the actionable items are what are helpful. What you
[17:00] Speaker 6: said is so concrete, that is something they can do,
[17:04] Speaker 6: that we can physically see and And it will have
[17:08] Speaker 6: an emotional impact on people as well, but it's a
[17:12] Speaker 6: literal shift that that's what has to happen.
[17:15] Speaker 3: Yeah.
[17:16] Speaker 7: I think actionable items like actionable, like things that you
[17:19] Speaker 7: can do hiring these types of investigators, I think bringing
[17:24] Speaker 7: in and building out an infrastructure for women who are
[17:28] Speaker 7: assaulted to go to and have some level of legal
[17:31] Speaker 7: guidance on campus as a resource. Like, What a radical idea.
[17:37] Speaker 7: I'm like, I reached out to my sorority at Cornell
[17:40] Speaker 7: and said, if you girls would like me to come
[17:42] Speaker 7: to Ithaca, nobody. No bullshit, no press, none of that crap.
[17:47] Speaker 7: And sit in the living room of our sorority and
[17:50] Speaker 7: walk you through what the law says and what your
[17:53] Speaker 7: rights are and where you need to go next.
[17:55] Speaker 4: Like, consider me your resource. But I'm like, why isn't
[17:58] Speaker 4: that already happening?
[18:00] Speaker 7: Like, why doesn't each sorority on Cornell's campus have access
[18:03] Speaker 7: to an independent female legal advisor?
[18:06] Speaker 4: She doesn't have to live in Ithaca.
[18:07] Speaker 7: She can live anywhere in the country and be available
[18:09] Speaker 7: on zoom to answer their questions and give them some
[18:12] Speaker 7: support in navigating these processes. Like there's things like that
[18:16] Speaker 7: that can happen every day. You know, also people don't,
[18:20] Speaker 7: I don't know. Jennifer was like this at Texas at Cornell,
[18:23] Speaker 7: only the fraternities could have parties.
[18:25] Speaker 5: Yeah.
[18:25] Speaker 3: Well, there were no parties at the sorority house and
[18:27] Speaker 3: you're kidding. No, no, no, no, absolutely not.
[18:31] Speaker 4: Yeah.
[18:32] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[18:32] Speaker 5: Yeah.
[18:32] Speaker 3: Yeah. Um, Boys were not allowed in my sorority house
[18:36] Speaker 3: back in the day. So they were snuck in, but
[18:40] Speaker 3: that was a no-no. And yeah, there was no, but
[18:42] Speaker 3: there was no ruling over it at the frat house. Yeah.
[18:45] Speaker 7: And so I think that's like the, you know, when
[18:47] Speaker 7: you think about the misogyny and the institutional misogyny and patriarchy,
[18:52] Speaker 7: I'm like that set up alone.
[18:54] Speaker 4: Girls live in a sorority house.
[18:56] Speaker 7: We had a woman who lived in our sorority house
[18:59] Speaker 7: who was like our house mom and she was awesome.
[19:01] Speaker 4: And she was actually pretty serious.
[19:03] Speaker 7: I got in big trouble for smoking cigarettes multiple times
[19:07] Speaker 7: on the back porch, but we were not allowed to
[19:09] Speaker 7: have parties. We had an adult living on the property.
[19:13] Speaker 7: And so that meant that all the parties were at
[19:15] Speaker 7: the fraternity houses, which meant that there was this wild
[19:19] Speaker 7: imbalance of social currency and power from the jump, right?
[19:25] Speaker 7: And again, these houses were such a maze of rooms
[19:29] Speaker 7: and they were dark and You know, the guys would
[19:31] Speaker 7: know which rooms were where and where do you put
[19:34] Speaker 7: your coat?
[19:35] Speaker 4: And it sounds like a small thing.
[19:38] Speaker 7: But I think when you think about that disorientation and
[19:41] Speaker 7: not having agency or ownership, like I didn't have parties
[19:44] Speaker 7: at my house.
[19:44] Speaker 4: I had to go to theirs. I was in their territory.
[19:47] Speaker 4: And that is to me just.
[19:50] Speaker 7: Baked in institutional misogyny in a way that just fuels
[19:54] Speaker 7: all of this.
[19:55] Speaker 5: Never even thought about it. Didn't even give it a
[19:57] Speaker 5: second thought.
[19:58] Speaker 3: Like, if you had asked me back then why we
[20:01] Speaker 3: weren't having the parties, it would be because we didn't
[20:04] Speaker 3: want our house to get wrecked.
[20:06] Speaker 6: Right?
[20:06] Speaker 5: Like, we didn't want our house to get messy.
[20:08] Speaker 3: I mean, that would have been the first thing that
[20:10] Speaker 3: occurred to me as opposed to, yeah, wait a second.
[20:13] Speaker 5: Why is it always on their turf?
[20:15] Speaker 6: Chloe, just so you know, I went to Eugene Lang
[20:17] Speaker 6: College at the New School University in the West Village
[20:21] Speaker 6: of New York City. My experience is diametrically opposed to that.
[20:26] Speaker 4: Slightly different.
[20:27] Speaker 3: Well, I also, at least I think like, you know,
[20:29] Speaker 3: a lot of times, and I don't know how at
[20:31] Speaker 3: this point right now, this point in time, I'm questioning
[20:34] Speaker 3: a lot of things, right? And a lot of beliefs
[20:36] Speaker 3: that I have. specifically around, and I have this podcast
[20:40] Speaker 3: on a Greek life, you know, on sororities and fraternities and,
[20:43] Speaker 3: and a lot of it about how fabulous it is. Lisa,
[20:47] Speaker 3: you said that you think that frat culture is, I
[20:50] Speaker 3: don't know if it's how you said frat culture is
[20:51] Speaker 3: rape culture.
[20:52] Speaker 5: What did you say?
[20:54] Speaker 4: Yes.
[20:54] Speaker 6: That's what I I'm asking the question because there are
[20:58] Speaker 6: these kind of, you know, incestuous ways of thinking.
[21:01] Speaker 2: About their own masculinity.
[21:03] Speaker 3: Right.
[21:03] Speaker 2: And that, that this, where you have to protect your
[21:06] Speaker 2: brothers at any expense. And that means that, you know,
[21:12] Speaker 2: at any cost.
[21:13] Speaker 5: You're not alone in thinking that.
[21:14] Speaker 3: And I think that people, many people are now of
[21:16] Speaker 3: the mindset that Greek life should be abolished. I mean, that's,
[21:19] Speaker 3: I think that's at Cornell right now, it's, you're not
[21:22] Speaker 3: allowed to have parties until what spring of 2027 or something.
[21:26] Speaker 4: Yeah, there's no parties.
[21:27] Speaker 5: I don't know.
[21:28] Speaker 3: Again, I have a Greek sorority podcast, and maybe that
[21:32] Speaker 3: is the right thing.
[21:32] Speaker 6: I mean, listen, my husband went to Colgate. He has
[21:36] Speaker 6: some of the dearest, closest friends from his time there,
[21:38] Speaker 6: men and women. I love these men and women. They've
[21:41] Speaker 6: become close friends of mine. And, you know, they would
[21:45] Speaker 6: say wonderful things about it, obviously.
[21:47] Speaker 4: Yeah.
[21:48] Speaker 6: However, there are also some not very good stories that
[21:52] Speaker 6: I remember him telling me when we first met. And
[21:54] Speaker 6: I was like, I'm sorry, what did you say?
[21:57] Speaker 2: What happened? And he said, yeah, not in his, but
[22:01] Speaker 2: in another.
[22:02] Speaker 6: So these sort of like, it's a kind of, it's understood,
[22:06] Speaker 6: I think, that these things happen to some degree or another.
[22:10] Speaker 2: And again, are normalized.
[22:12] Speaker 6: Like how, what do you, for you, Chloe, how common
[22:15] Speaker 6: do you think these things are?
[22:17] Speaker 4: I think they're, I think it's rampant.
[22:21] Speaker 7: I think anytime you get drugs, alcohol, partying, and people
[22:25] Speaker 7: who are 18 to 22 in a room, I think
[22:29] Speaker 7: you can find yourself in some dicey situations. I mean,
[22:34] Speaker 7: even just thinking about it now, it's kind of like
[22:36] Speaker 7: I had such a great experience in my sorority. I
[22:40] Speaker 7: was treated so warmly. The older girls in my sorority
[22:43] Speaker 7: were very maternal and caring. I never felt judged or
[22:48] Speaker 7: I didn't have any of those bad experiences and it,
[22:50] Speaker 7: and it felt so like a cocoon of safety in
[22:53] Speaker 7: that environment. But then I start to think about it
[22:56] Speaker 7: and I'm like, well, maybe it felt like a cocoon
[22:58] Speaker 7: of safety because it had to be because the culture
[23:01] Speaker 7: that we were in at Cornell created a world that
[23:05] Speaker 7: necessitated it. And so it's, it, it, I go back
[23:08] Speaker 7: and forth myself and, you know, I have identical twin
[23:11] Speaker 7: nephews who are 10 and I've had so many conversations
[23:14] Speaker 7: with my sister about as they get older, they go
[23:17] Speaker 7: into middle school, they go to high school, would she
[23:20] Speaker 7: want them to be in a fraternity in college? And
[23:23] Speaker 7: the good things about that and the friendships that come
[23:27] Speaker 7: out of that, but the dangers, and you have to wonder,
[23:31] Speaker 7: is it really worth it?
[23:32] Speaker 5: Yeah.
[23:34] Speaker 3: That's why I was referencing Bill Maher, who has nothing
[23:36] Speaker 3: really to do with our conversation, except that what he
[23:38] Speaker 3: said on his show the other night really resonated with me,
[23:41] Speaker 3: that you put and specifically was talking about about guys.
[23:44] Speaker 3: He was, he said something different about sororities, but you
[23:46] Speaker 3: put a bunch of men together who look alike, sound alike,
[23:52] Speaker 3: and you don't have any women in that group and
[23:55] Speaker 3: bad things happen.
[23:56] Speaker 5: Something to that effect.
[23:57] Speaker 3: He's like, listen, bad things happen when you put a
[23:59] Speaker 3: lot of women together, whatever it was, but he was
[24:01] Speaker 3: saying nothing.
[24:02] Speaker 5: He was really sort of anti-Greek life. Nothing good comes
[24:06] Speaker 5: out of this Greek system. I don't know.
[24:09] Speaker 3: Again, I, I, That has not been true for me
[24:11] Speaker 3: in terms of my life. I, like you, Chloe, have
[24:14] Speaker 3: made lifelong friends. I did so much growing and learning
[24:18] Speaker 3: and philanthropy and all of the good stuff that comes
[24:21] Speaker 3: along with it.
[24:22] Speaker 5: But it is a time now after all of this.
[24:25] Speaker 5: that I am questioning it.
[24:26] Speaker 6: I think it's an opportunity to do a, you know,
[24:30] Speaker 6: let's do a refresh on the whole idea.
[24:33] Speaker 2: Like that's it.
[24:34] Speaker 6: Because the idea of community is super important. I mean,
[24:38] Speaker 6: and that, and especially I think at that age, and
[24:41] Speaker 6: if there are just some parameters or things, you know,
[24:47] Speaker 6: I don't know, like the baby doesn't have to go
[24:48] Speaker 6: out with the bathwater perhaps, you know, and this is
[24:51] Speaker 6: coming from a person who clearly doesn't, has no attachment
[24:54] Speaker 6: to it whatsoever.
[24:55] Speaker 4: I think that's really valid.
[24:57] Speaker 7: And I think Cornell, one of the good things about
[24:59] Speaker 7: Cornell is it's incredibly challenging academically, and it does promote
[25:03] Speaker 7: a level of free thought and thinking.
[25:06] Speaker 4: So it would be.
[25:06] Speaker 7: Kind of a perfect place to reimagine community in a
[25:11] Speaker 7: post-2026 world.
[25:14] Speaker 4: Because not only.
[25:15] Speaker 7: Have we all lived through the Jane Doe experience of
[25:19] Speaker 7: the last few weeks, But our society and the way
[25:23] Speaker 7: in which women are treated and the way in which
[25:26] Speaker 7: women are, I mean, I just, I work in politics.
[25:29] Speaker 7: So I've been watching and reading all about the recent
[25:32] Speaker 7: ad that just ran in Ohio against a woman running there.
[25:36] Speaker 4: And I think that.
[25:38] Speaker 7: Women collectively are entering a moment in time where we should,
[25:44] Speaker 7: and I think will, begin to re-examine the institutions that
[25:49] Speaker 7: serve us the institutions that no longer serve us, how
[25:53] Speaker 7: we want to be in community, and how we want
[25:56] Speaker 7: to associate with men in their community. And I think
[25:58] Speaker 7: it's a valuable conversation. And I think Cornell University has
[26:03] Speaker 7: some of the smartest young minds in the country. And
[26:05] Speaker 7: I would love for that university to promote this idea
[26:10] Speaker 7: of a re-examining of the social fabric of a university
[26:14] Speaker 7: in a post-2026.
[26:18] Speaker 4: Political world.
[26:19] Speaker 3: I think it's going to have to, I think if
[26:20] Speaker 3: they didn't want to before, they're going to have to.
[26:22] Speaker 4: So yeah, they're going to have to now.
[26:24] Speaker 5: Right. Exactly.
[26:25] Speaker 3: And rightly so. And yeah, and they're not, listen, and
[26:29] Speaker 3: we know they're not alone. This doesn't just happen at Cornell.
[26:32] Speaker 4: That is a hundred percent true. Yeah.
[26:34] Speaker 7: But I will, I do have to say, I went
[26:36] Speaker 7: to the university of Tennessee for law school and I
[26:38] Speaker 7: handled a lot of title nine hearings as an attorney
[26:42] Speaker 7: at the university of Tennessee. And I will say that
[26:45] Speaker 7: the title nine process at Tennessee is, was tough and
[26:50] Speaker 7: it was fair and they didn't care. I represented clients
[26:55] Speaker 7: who were athletes, big time athletes at the University of Tennessee.
[26:58] Speaker 4: Didn't matter if you were on the football team.
[27:00] Speaker 7: It didn't matter if you were some kid from middle
[27:03] Speaker 7: of nowhere, West Tennessee, Middle Tennessee, they were very fair,
[27:07] Speaker 7: but they were very swift.
[27:08] Speaker 4: And so I saw the Title IX process.
[27:11] Speaker 7: At UT being adjudicated in a way that was taken
[27:14] Speaker 7: quite seriously. But I do agree with you, Jennifer, that
[27:18] Speaker 7: this is happening all over across the country. And, you know,
[27:23] Speaker 7: Cornell taught me to be a free thinker and it
[27:25] Speaker 7: taught me to challenge authority and it taught me to
[27:27] Speaker 7: push back when something wasn't right.
[27:29] Speaker 4: They may regret that decision now.
[27:32] Speaker 7: But I think it's high time that that we all
[27:35] Speaker 7: as women start to really question what what no longer
[27:38] Speaker 7: serves us institutionally. And like guys being the only ones
[27:43] Speaker 7: to have a frat party that doesn't serve me institutionally.
[27:57] Speaker 6: So do you think that the young men were taught
[28:00] Speaker 6: to be free thinkers as well? Or was that another
[28:04] Speaker 6: piece of women having to kind.
[28:09] Speaker 2: Of find their own way to survive?
[28:13] Speaker 4: I mean, that's a really great question.
[28:16] Speaker 7: The professors at Cornell and the like educational atmosphere there,
[28:19] Speaker 7: it's really challenging and probing and they will push you.
[28:22] Speaker 4: And I was an English major. So every time you
[28:24] Speaker 4: had an opinion, why, why, why? And, you know, I
[28:29] Speaker 4: think it was across the board.
[28:30] Speaker 7: The professors were pushing us and challenging us to think
[28:34] Speaker 7: hard and critically and examine our own viewpoints, part of
[28:37] Speaker 7: a good liberal arts education, I suppose. But I, I
[28:41] Speaker 7: do think, and this goes back to like the very
[28:42] Speaker 7: beginning of our conversation. I do think women in general are,
[28:46] Speaker 7: are incredibly capable at critical thinking and evaluating our own
[28:51] Speaker 7: ideas and thoughts because we've had to since the time
[28:54] Speaker 7: we were about five. I'm running about six different scenarios
[28:57] Speaker 7: in my head every day and have been from the
[29:00] Speaker 7: time I was in kindergarten, right?
[29:01] Speaker 4: Like, am I talking too much? Am I raising my
[29:03] Speaker 4: hand too much? Should I wear this? Should I sit
[29:05] Speaker 4: in the back? Should I be in the front?
[29:06] Speaker 7: So I think women are just like constantly re-examining and
[29:09] Speaker 7: evaluating what they do, what they think, why they think
[29:12] Speaker 7: it in a way that actually I think makes us
[29:14] Speaker 7: incredible leaders, incredible lawmakers, incredible attorneys. Any job that requires critical.
[29:20] Speaker 4: Thinking and examination, I think women are just.
[29:24] Speaker 7: For that reason, like, ironically, the thing that made us
[29:28] Speaker 7: have to be so capable is the patriarchy and misogyny,
[29:33] Speaker 7: but it's created in us the ability to out strategize
[29:37] Speaker 7: and out think so many of the men who. kind
[29:40] Speaker 7: of put that down, um, as the gauntlet that we
[29:42] Speaker 7: have to survive in. So I think it's sort of,
[29:45] Speaker 7: you know, there's only, I.
[29:46] Speaker 4: Just think we're getting to a critical mass, um, where
[29:50] Speaker 4: the levy is going to break. Yeah.
[29:52] Speaker 5: Uh, let's hope it's broken.
[29:54] Speaker 3: Let's hope that the levy has now broken. I, yes,
[29:57] Speaker 3: this has been just, an insane, awful story and so
[30:01] Speaker 3: heartbreaking and all of the things. But Chloe, we are
[30:06] Speaker 3: so grateful that you came on and gave us your perspective, really.
[30:09] Speaker 4: Oh, thank you so much for having me. I'm delighted
[30:12] Speaker 4: to be here.
[30:13] Speaker 7: I'm grateful to you all for covering this story and
[30:15] Speaker 7: for having these conversations and not sensationalizing this and having
[30:21] Speaker 7: a genuine conversation around it, I think is so important.
[30:24] Speaker 7: And I will just say from a personal standpoint, how
[30:28] Speaker 7: unbelievably proud I am of Jane Doe as a fellow Cornellian,
[30:33] Speaker 7: the courage that it took to do what she did.
[30:37] Speaker 4: And I think.
[30:38] Speaker 7: The courage to be imperfect and to be complicated and
[30:42] Speaker 7: to be misunderstood in this world as a woman is
[30:46] Speaker 7: I think one of the most absolutely beautiful things that
[30:51] Speaker 7: can exist. And I'm just, I'm so proud. To say
[30:54] Speaker 7: that I went to the same school that she attended.
[30:57] Speaker 7: She makes me feel proud to have gone to Cornell
[31:01] Speaker 7: because of her behavior, her absolute courage. So people say
[31:07] Speaker 7: to me, aren't you embarrassed to have gone to Cornell?
[31:10] Speaker 7: And I say, no, I went to the same school
[31:12] Speaker 7: as Jane Doe.
[31:13] Speaker 5: I hope she hears that. I love that.
[31:15] Speaker 2: I hope she hears that too.
[31:16] Speaker 3: I hope that you're not the only one. I'm sure many, many,
[31:20] Speaker 3: many women are thinking it. So I hope they're all
[31:22] Speaker 3: saying it.
[31:23] Speaker 5: Yeah.
[31:24] Speaker 2: Very well said.
[31:24] Speaker 5: Thank you for joining us.
[31:25] Speaker 4: Yes. Thank you all so much.
[31:28] Speaker 2: Really an honor chatting with you. Thank you so much.
[31:30] Speaker 4: Likewise. Thank you.

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