# Legally Brunette: Discussing “The Cornell 7” with Dr. Hillary Goldsher

An episode of [Two Ts In A Pod with Teddi Mellencamp and Tamra Judge](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1477524410), 6 Oct 2026, 42 min.

Audio: https://podtrac.com/pts/redirect.mp3/pscrb.fm/rss/p/mgln.ai/e/28/traffic.omny.fm/d/clips/e73c998e-6e60-432f-8610-ae210140c5b1/b85867f1-c5ec-44e0-9f79-b34d0160000c/27f40785-d341-4e9a-b8fa-b4db003e666a/audio.mp3?utm_source=Podcast&in_playlist=59f37943-e628-4810-8c3b-ae2b00156477

Emily and Shane are joined by psychologist Dr. Hillary Goldsher to discuss the case between Jane Doe and “The Cornell 7”. This episode will discuss alleged sexual assault, drug, and alcohol use which may be triggering to some listeners. If you or someone you know has been affected by sexual violence, support is available 24/7 through the RAINN National Sexual Assault Hotline at 1-800-656-4673 or online at rainn.org See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

## Transcript

[0:00] Speaker 1: The following episode will be discussing themes of sexual assault.
[0:03] Speaker 1: If you or anyone you know is a victim of
[0:05] Speaker 1: sexual assault or abuse, call RAINN's Sexual Assault Hotline at 1-800-656-HOPE.
[0:10] Speaker 2: That's 1-800-656-4673. Hi guys, welcome to Legally Brunette. I'll be
[0:12] Speaker 2: your host today, Emily Simpson with... Shane.
[0:14] Speaker 3: Shane.
[0:23] Speaker 2: So over the past few weeks, one story has definitely
[0:27] Speaker 2: dominated news feeds, social media platforms, and created some extremely
[0:32] Speaker 2: important discourse. Today, we're going to talk about the Cornell 7. Also,
[0:38] Speaker 2: I just want to just make sure that everyone out
[0:40] Speaker 2: there knows that this case is evolving rapidly. We are
[0:44] Speaker 2: only working with the information that has currently been made public.
[0:47] Speaker 2: You know, I've been trying to follow this in real time,
[0:50] Speaker 2: and I actually pulled up a the lawsuit that she
[0:54] Speaker 2: filed against Cornell. And I read that it was about
[0:56] Speaker 2: 101 pages, but really the bulk of it was probably,
[0:59] Speaker 2: I'd say like 10 pages. But anyway, every time I
[1:02] Speaker 2: feel like I have a handle on this case and
[1:04] Speaker 2: I understand the timeline and I understand what's going on.
[1:06] Speaker 2: And I, I have kind of a clear picture. As
[1:09] Speaker 2: soon as I open a newsfeed, by the way, which
[1:12] Speaker 2: is Instagram, it's just, it's rapidly changing. There's so much
[1:16] Speaker 2: more information that keeps coming out. There's text messages that
[1:18] Speaker 2: come out and then there's, the title nine information with Cornell.
[1:22] Speaker 2: And then this morning when I was at the gym,
[1:23] Speaker 2: there's now a phone recording.
[1:25] Speaker 3: It's because there's so many people, right? There's just like
[1:28] Speaker 3: an insane amount of individuals involved in the crime one
[1:32] Speaker 3: way or another.
[1:32] Speaker 2: Right. When you have seven alleged crime, anyway, co-defendants, and
[1:35] Speaker 2: then you have text messages and then you have voicemails
[1:38] Speaker 2: and now you have all this information. Then you have,
[1:40] Speaker 2: her roommates that talked to her the next day who
[1:42] Speaker 2: have now there's information about those conversations. Anyway, so just
[1:47] Speaker 2: to reiterate, we're just going to work with what we
[1:50] Speaker 2: know so far. This case involves allegations as seven former
[1:53] Speaker 2: Cornell University students sexually assaulted a classmate at a fraternity
[1:57] Speaker 2: house in the fall of 2024. Nearly two years later,
[2:01] Speaker 2: the case is back in the spotlight. There is a
[2:03] Speaker 2: civil lawsuit, a district attorney reopening the investigation, and there
[2:07] Speaker 2: are calls for an independent review of how the university
[2:10] Speaker 2: responded and a flood of commentary from celebrities, influencers, and
[2:15] Speaker 2: online sleuths. Today, we're not here to deliver a verdict.
[2:19] Speaker 2: What we want to do is step back and look
[2:20] Speaker 2: at the human and institutional side of this story. How
[2:24] Speaker 2: do universities respond when something like this is reported? And
[2:27] Speaker 2: why do those responses often fail the people involved? What
[2:31] Speaker 2: happens inside groups like fraternities that shapes how individuals behave?
[2:36] Speaker 2: To help us look at this case through a psychological lens,
[2:39] Speaker 2: we are going to be joined today by Dr. Hilary Goldsher.
[2:42] Speaker 4: Dr.
[2:42] Speaker 2: Goldsher is a clinical psychologist, executive coach, and organizational consultant
[2:47] Speaker 2: who has spent her career examining human behavior and how
[2:51] Speaker 2: organizations actually work. When we're analyzing how these institutions handle crisis,
[2:57] Speaker 2: accountability and harm, these are the important conversations that need
[3:01] Speaker 2: to be had. Also, I would like to discuss with Dr. Golcher,
[3:05] Speaker 2: I think it's very important to also understand how to
[3:08] Speaker 2: have discussions with our younger children. And I think that's important.
[3:13] Speaker 2: You know, I took Annabelle to cheer the other day,
[3:14] Speaker 2: we were in the car together, we're in the car
[3:16] Speaker 2: for about an hour on the way to her cheer.
[3:18] Speaker 2: And she was asking me questions about the Cornell seven,
[3:21] Speaker 2: because obviously, She saw something about it on TikTok and
[3:25] Speaker 2: everybody's making videos about it.
[3:27] Speaker 4: And you're like, we're doing a podcast. You can just
[3:29] Speaker 4: listen to it tomorrow.
[3:29] Speaker 2: Yeah, Annabelle, just listen to Legally Brunette. But no, she's 13.
[3:33] Speaker 2: And I would like to ask Dr. Goldsher, what is
[3:37] Speaker 2: the appropriate response?
[3:40] Speaker 4: How to navigate through this story.
[3:42] Speaker 2: How to navigate through it. Also, because I am raising men,
[3:47] Speaker 2: we have twin boys, I would like to have a
[3:49] Speaker 2: conversation with my sons as well. But I want to
[3:52] Speaker 2: make sure that it's age appropriate and what information do
[3:55] Speaker 2: they need to know? How do I talk to them
[3:58] Speaker 2: about it? And how do I make sure that I
[4:00] Speaker 2: am raising boys that do not behave like those boys did?
[4:06] Speaker 4: Well, and more so identify and report.
[4:09] Speaker 5: Exactly.
[4:10] Speaker 2: I want my sons to be the ones that call
[4:13] Speaker 2: 911 or stop it. or stand up? And how do
[4:18] Speaker 2: I make sure that we're raising men like that? All right.
[4:21] Speaker 2: So let's welcome Dr. Goldsher to Legally Brunette.
[4:24] Speaker 5: Hi there. Thanks for having me.
[4:26] Speaker 2: Hi, thanks for being here today. Let's start with some statistics.
[4:30] Speaker 2: So according to rain.org, in a 2018 paper on college
[4:34] Speaker 2: party culture, law enforcement agencies documented one reported rape every
[4:38] Speaker 2: 20 days for victims aged 17 to 24. These college
[4:42] Speaker 2: age victims accounted for about one third of all rapes
[4:45] Speaker 2: reported to law enforcement. So it looks as if sexual
[4:49] Speaker 2: violence on college campuses has been studied for decades, yet
[4:52] Speaker 2: it keeps happening. What is something that contributes to the
[4:57] Speaker 2: belief that men think it's okay that they can simply
[4:59] Speaker 2: get away with it? Do you have thoughts on colleges
[5:03] Speaker 2: and this culture?
[5:06] Speaker 5: It's such a complex question, and there are a number
[5:09] Speaker 5: of things that come to mind. One of the things
[5:12] Speaker 5: I think it's important to not only talk about, but
[5:15] Speaker 5: to combat as a society and as parents is this
[5:19] Speaker 5: notion of what's technically called pluralistic thinking, pluralistic silence. And
[5:27] Speaker 5: what this is, is a phenomenon where everyone privately has
[5:32] Speaker 5: concerns about an event that is happening, but no one
[5:36] Speaker 5: speaks up because they assume everyone else is fine with it.
[5:39] Speaker 5: And this collective silence, this like tacit agreement to stay
[5:43] Speaker 5: silent creates the illusion of collective agreement. I think it's
[5:48] Speaker 5: more commonly known as like peer pressure and group think,
[5:51] Speaker 5: but it's not only a dialogue about how do our
[5:55] Speaker 5: kids not become one of the seven. It's a dialogue
[5:57] Speaker 5: about how our kids don't become one of the 50.
[5:59] Speaker 5: And this is one of the phenomenons is people stay silent,
[6:04] Speaker 5: because of the assumption that everyone else thinks it's okay. Furthermore,
[6:08] Speaker 5: if folks that are witnessing or have doubts about whether
[6:13] Speaker 5: or not they should intervene, they don't have the resources
[6:16] Speaker 5: or tools about how to do so.
[6:18] Speaker 2: What would you say those resources or tools are? Because
[6:21] Speaker 2: I was talking about, so I have a 13 year
[6:24] Speaker 2: old daughter and then I have 11 year old boys.
[6:26] Speaker 2: And I actually wanted to have a conversation with my 11-year-olds,
[6:31] Speaker 2: but I want to make sure that it's age appropriate.
[6:33] Speaker 2: So what do you think is a conversation that parents
[6:36] Speaker 2: should be having with their kids?
[6:38] Speaker 5: I also have an 11-year-old boy and an 8-year-old boy.
[6:41] Speaker 5: And this is something I think about deeply in light
[6:45] Speaker 5: of this scenario. And generally speaking, I think it is
[6:48] Speaker 5: important to have the thematic discussion around stepping in when
[6:53] Speaker 5: something is wrong, when your belly or your tummy or
[6:57] Speaker 5: your mind or the lessons you've been taught from mama
[7:00] Speaker 5: or dad or the family or your teachers are in question,
[7:03] Speaker 5: to know what to do when that happens. Some of
[7:07] Speaker 5: the dialogue I've had with families that I work with
[7:10] Speaker 5: who have kids in this age range is like, I
[7:13] Speaker 5: don't want to get involved. I don't know what to do.
[7:15] Speaker 5: I don't want people to turn on me. There's an
[7:17] Speaker 5: understanding at some level that what's going on isn't right, obviously.
[7:22] Speaker 5: But there is a fear around intervening. I'm not excusing
[7:26] Speaker 5: or justifying the lack of intervention. I think we have
[7:29] Speaker 5: a collective societal disappointment and confusion around why this is happening.
[7:34] Speaker 5: But we really need to ask ourselves, why are otherwise
[7:37] Speaker 5: good kids having such a hard time stepping in and
[7:40] Speaker 5: doing the right thing? There's a systemic issue going on
[7:45] Speaker 5: that we need to think about. Going back to your question,
[7:48] Speaker 5: sitting down with your kids, sitting on the floor with
[7:50] Speaker 5: them and talking about like, we have a lot of
[7:53] Speaker 5: conversations about right and wrong. We have a lot of
[7:56] Speaker 5: conversations about if something's going on, we don't want you
[7:59] Speaker 5: to get involved, but we don't have that many conversations.
[8:01] Speaker 5: Like if you're a witness, if you see your friends
[8:04] Speaker 5: doing something, if you see people on the playground or
[8:07] Speaker 5: in your classroom doing something wrong, what happens inside of you?
[8:11] Speaker 5: What are the thoughts that you have? What do you
[8:13] Speaker 5: think about doing? What gets in the way of you
[8:15] Speaker 5: doing those things? What gets What contributes to the possibility
[8:19] Speaker 5: that you would do things? To really play out with
[8:21] Speaker 5: them all the feelings in an unformed mind. I mean,
[8:26] Speaker 5: our brains don't develop until age 25. Again, no excuse,
[8:29] Speaker 5: no justification.
[8:29] Speaker 2: It's just true.
[8:31] Speaker 5: And so they may not intuitively be able to have
[8:34] Speaker 5: the executive functioning to figure out what do I do
[8:37] Speaker 5: when I'm confronted with a scenario that puts me into
[8:40] Speaker 5: fight or flight or gets my system activated? I'm afraid
[8:43] Speaker 5: of being ostracized. What are my options? And talking them
[8:46] Speaker 5: through the literal solutions. If they have ideas, great. If not, well,
[8:50] Speaker 5: let me give you a list of what to do.
[8:52] Speaker 5: The first thing you do is you walk away. You
[8:55] Speaker 5: say something like, oh, I'm not allowed to do this.
[8:57] Speaker 5: I mean, this is for younger kids. And you tell
[9:00] Speaker 5: a trusted other. And you can let your littler kids know,
[9:04] Speaker 5: and really kids in college age as well, I, as
[9:07] Speaker 5: the safe adult in your world, can help make this anonymous.
[9:11] Speaker 5: I just need the information to a trusted adult or
[9:14] Speaker 5: a trusted adult so we can make use of it
[9:17] Speaker 5: so people can be protected. So kids don't feel like
[9:20] Speaker 5: the entire scenario rests on their shoulders. I have said
[9:25] Speaker 5: to my children, if you can eke out something doesn't
[9:27] Speaker 5: feel good inside of you, I got it from there.
[9:30] Speaker 2: Okay. So you would suggest not having a conversation that
[9:34] Speaker 2: has specific details about this case and you would suggest
[9:40] Speaker 2: having conversations with children of that age more in a
[9:44] Speaker 2: general global idea of if something doesn't feel correct, if
[9:47] Speaker 2: something feels wrong, if you feel like there's something going
[9:51] Speaker 2: on that's making you sad or upset, or you know
[9:54] Speaker 2: that you're grappling with right from wrong, that your first
[9:58] Speaker 2: step is to remove yourself from it. And then your
[10:01] Speaker 2: second step is to tell a trusted adult. Is that
[10:04] Speaker 2: kind of the breakdown of what you were saying?
[10:06] Speaker 5: Yes and no. I think this scenario is so awful
[10:10] Speaker 5: and so horrifying. And as you were reading the statistics
[10:14] Speaker 5: at the top, But for whatever sets of reasons, it's
[10:17] Speaker 5: coming to the public consciousness, hopefully in a different way.
[10:20] Speaker 5: I think we need to do more and take on
[10:23] Speaker 5: a greater risk profile. So to answer your question, do
[10:26] Speaker 5: I think some version of a conversation with our younger
[10:29] Speaker 5: kids should happen around the arena and the topic of this?
[10:33] Speaker 5: I do.
[10:33] Speaker 1: Okay.
[10:34] Speaker 5: Add it with my own children. And I, uh, shifted
[10:38] Speaker 5: the words to not discuss specifically rape and sexual material,
[10:43] Speaker 5: but instead talked about the dynamic between boys and girls,
[10:49] Speaker 5: men and women, and men potentially wanting to touch or
[10:54] Speaker 5: be in contact with women when they are not in
[10:57] Speaker 5: a position to say yes or no, or they specifically
[11:00] Speaker 5: say no. And that it is our and their responsibility
[11:04] Speaker 5: to make sure that they're taking care of girls or
[11:06] Speaker 5: women if they're using their voice or they're in a
[11:09] Speaker 5: compromised situation. So there is a way to have a
[11:12] Speaker 5: conversation that's like, something's happening in the news and I
[11:15] Speaker 5: want to share it with you, but to not provide
[11:17] Speaker 5: details that would be confusing or shattering to a young kid,
[11:21] Speaker 5: but rather put it in language that they can access.
[11:26] Speaker 5: We still want to talk to our children and our
[11:28] Speaker 5: young boys about the responsibility of making sure that women
[11:32] Speaker 5: don't feel uncomfortable or threatened around the groupthink related.
[11:35] Speaker 2: To young boys or men.
[11:37] Speaker 5: And we can talk about words, we can talk about touches,
[11:41] Speaker 5: we can talk about unwanted contact with kids that are
[11:43] Speaker 5: as little as 8, 10, 12, and I think we should.
[11:54] Speaker 2: Let's just get back to the actual case. Now, I
[11:56] Speaker 2: know there's been so much going on out there and
[11:59] Speaker 2: that I've read as far as, I guess you would
[12:02] Speaker 2: call it discrepancies between when she first wrote down, you know,
[12:05] Speaker 2: her six page report for the Cornell Police Department. And
[12:09] Speaker 2: then that was basically the original DA decided not to
[12:14] Speaker 2: proceed forward with like a criminal investigation because of what
[12:17] Speaker 2: she wrote in her six page. I've read excerpts of it,
[12:20] Speaker 2: but I've never read the whole document in its entirety.
[12:24] Speaker 2: And then obviously later, you know, we get to her
[12:27] Speaker 2: civil lawsuit that she files against Cornell University. And I
[12:30] Speaker 2: have read that document And there's, there's maybe more detail
[12:34] Speaker 2: or different details in that. So then, you know, you
[12:37] Speaker 2: see things that people saying, well, she just, you know,
[12:40] Speaker 2: she was embarrassed, her reputation was being ruined. So now
[12:43] Speaker 2: she's changing her story. From my perspective, as a female,
[12:48] Speaker 2: I think What I take away from that is maybe
[12:52] Speaker 2: she was in shock at first. Maybe she didn't even
[12:55] Speaker 2: realize what was happening was illegal or criminal. Maybe she
[12:59] Speaker 2: had to go through it. Maybe she had to talk
[13:01] Speaker 2: about it. Maybe she had to talk about it with friends.
[13:03] Speaker 2: Maybe she had to think about it. Anyway, obviously, I'm
[13:06] Speaker 2: not a psychologist. You are. So what is your takeaway
[13:09] Speaker 2: from the difference in what she was saying in the
[13:12] Speaker 2: beginning and then what she says in her actual civil complaint?
[13:17] Speaker 5: Well, you're right on track. And I want to make
[13:19] Speaker 5: what I'm about to say really clear. This is not
[13:22] Speaker 5: only predictable, but expected. It doesn't happen with every victim,
[13:28] Speaker 5: but often, more often than not, victims for a variety
[13:32] Speaker 5: of reasons suppress their experience, both because of the trauma itself.
[13:37] Speaker 5: There's something called a trauma response. A trauma response can
[13:39] Speaker 5: take the form of many different symptoms. One of them
[13:43] Speaker 5: is suppressing, exiling the experience because of shame, because of embarrassment,
[13:48] Speaker 5: or because of the nervous system's reaction, which is fight, flight,
[13:51] Speaker 5: or freeze. And freeze can happen in the moment, and
[13:53] Speaker 5: freeze can happen the day after, and the month after,
[13:55] Speaker 5: and the year after. And so this is a speculation,
[14:00] Speaker 5: but I imagine there was a combination of deep-rooted shame
[14:04] Speaker 5: that somehow she co-created this scenario and, quote, deserved it,
[14:09] Speaker 5: and also an unfolding of the trauma related to it.
[14:13] Speaker 5: Perhaps there was a narrative in her mind that, that
[14:17] Speaker 5: I'm okay. I can recover on my own. It would
[14:20] Speaker 5: be too embarrassing, too publicly shaming to bring this to light.
[14:25] Speaker 5: And so I can handle it myself. Over time, I
[14:27] Speaker 5: imagine the symptoms continued to seep through and she began
[14:32] Speaker 5: to be compromised in terms of her mental health functioning,
[14:35] Speaker 5: in terms of her physical functioning, psychological functioning, spiritual functioning, again,
[14:40] Speaker 5: a speculation. But when you go through this type of
[14:42] Speaker 5: trauma and and there isn't justice, there isn't a safe
[14:45] Speaker 5: place to discuss and have it processed, symptoms start to
[14:51] Speaker 5: occur and exacerbate. So I imagine there was a pool
[14:54] Speaker 5: of reasons that had her pause and mitigate. And I
[14:59] Speaker 5: am on behalf of victims, you know, in quotes, pleased
[15:03] Speaker 5: that she is now able to collect a sense of
[15:07] Speaker 5: what her experience was and seek justice and hopefully seek
[15:11] Speaker 5: support along the way.
[15:12] Speaker 1: Mm-hmm.
[15:13] Speaker 2: Um, also we were, there's a lot of conversation about
[15:18] Speaker 2: consent as far as I do know that I believe
[15:21] Speaker 2: even in her, um, her complaint and maybe in the,
[15:24] Speaker 2: in her initial report, she does talk about how, when
[15:26] Speaker 2: she arrived at the frat house that evening that she
[15:29] Speaker 2: had already had, I believe like 10 drinks or something
[15:31] Speaker 2: to that point. So there's conversation that has to do
[15:34] Speaker 2: with consent. What's your take on, on the consent aspect
[15:39] Speaker 2: of it? Um, I know that's, there's a lot of legal, um,
[15:43] Speaker 2: take away from consent as far as where does the
[15:45] Speaker 2: consent begin? Where does it end? Can you initially give
[15:48] Speaker 2: consent and then through the evening, the consent changes? What's
[15:52] Speaker 2: your thoughts on the consent part of it?
[15:55] Speaker 5: Yeah, I really want to make this as crystal clear
[15:57] Speaker 5: as possible. This isn't a hypothesis. You give consent and
[16:02] Speaker 5: then change your mind.
[16:03] Speaker 2: Right.
[16:04] Speaker 5: You can give consent and then change your mind. And
[16:08] Speaker 5: if someone doesn't listen to your change in a decision,
[16:13] Speaker 5: That is illegal. And I really want two things to happen. One,
[16:18] Speaker 5: the responsibility is most certainly not on women solely, but
[16:23] Speaker 5: I want it to be understood and more in the
[16:25] Speaker 5: dialogue that one can say yes and then change their
[16:28] Speaker 5: mind and can stand behind that with confidence. You can
[16:32] Speaker 5: say out loud, at the beginning, I was okay. Now
[16:34] Speaker 5: I'm not. I want it to stop. That isn't a problem.
[16:39] Speaker 5: That isn't a bad thing. I can imagine that would
[16:41] Speaker 5: feel embarrassing and shameful and awkward and perhaps put you
[16:46] Speaker 5: up for social embarrassment. But from an ethical, legal, moral standpoint,
[16:53] Speaker 5: you're absolutely able and empowered to say yes and then
[16:56] Speaker 5: say no. It sounds like it's possible that happened in
[16:59] Speaker 5: this scenario. Again, this is just trickled out information and
[17:03] Speaker 5: All of this is going to be determined at some
[17:05] Speaker 5: point in a court of law. But if what is
[17:07] Speaker 5: being distributed is true, that there was some version of
[17:10] Speaker 5: consent at the beginning, and at some point later, she
[17:13] Speaker 5: attempted to communicate that her mind had changed or didn't
[17:16] Speaker 5: actively consent to the additional sexual contact, that is the
[17:22] Speaker 5: makings of a criminal act. If one is saying no,
[17:26] Speaker 5: it means no, no matter what they said the moment before. Agreed.
[17:30] Speaker 2: Also, you know, I was talking before you came on,
[17:33] Speaker 2: I also have a 13 year old daughter who is
[17:35] Speaker 2: on social media, and she likes to look at TikTok
[17:37] Speaker 2: and things like that. And obviously, this case is all
[17:39] Speaker 2: over TikTok. I was wondering as from your perspective, because
[17:43] Speaker 2: we talked about how to talk to boys, and what
[17:46] Speaker 2: to say to them. What is your take on the
[17:49] Speaker 2: conversations around a female, a young female? I mean, my
[17:53] Speaker 2: daughter's 13. But obviously, we're talking about you know, young
[17:56] Speaker 2: teenage girls, girls that are about to go to college,
[17:59] Speaker 2: maybe girls that have just entered college. What is the
[18:02] Speaker 2: conversation that we should be having with them in regards
[18:05] Speaker 2: to this case and how to keep themselves safe, how
[18:08] Speaker 2: to be clear about consent? You know, just from a
[18:12] Speaker 2: perspective of Legally Brunette and many of the cases that
[18:15] Speaker 2: we've done, we've had so many cases where it involves
[18:18] Speaker 2: college students students, college girls getting hurt, murdered, because that's
[18:23] Speaker 2: what we're talking about, true crime on this podcast. And
[18:25] Speaker 2: I've always said that we need to make sure that
[18:28] Speaker 2: college girls that are out there traveling on campus, that
[18:31] Speaker 2: they're traveling in groups, that they never break away, that
[18:33] Speaker 2: they're not alone.
[18:34] Speaker 5: It needs to be diversified because the discussion that is
[18:40] Speaker 5: more common from parents to their young girls in particular
[18:44] Speaker 5: is about protecting oneself in the which of course is
[18:49] Speaker 5: part of the conversation that must be had. Travel in groups,
[18:51] Speaker 5: don't drink too much, call me if you get in trouble,
[18:54] Speaker 5: all the things. However, the conversation around, well, what happens
[18:58] Speaker 5: if you don't do that? What happens if you do
[19:01] Speaker 5: drink too much? What happens if you do go somewhere alone?
[19:03] Speaker 5: What happens if you're hanging out with a boy and
[19:06] Speaker 5: you end up at the frat house, right? What happens
[19:08] Speaker 5: if you don't listen to our original advice and end
[19:11] Speaker 5: up in a compromise scenario? And I think oftentimes parents...
[19:16] Speaker 5: You don't want to say the thing out loud that
[19:17] Speaker 5: you don't want them to do. You feel like if
[19:19] Speaker 5: you say it, that means they're more likely to do it.
[19:22] Speaker 2: Like you're condoning it if you talk about it too much.
[19:25] Speaker 5: That's right. The language I like to use is like
[19:27] Speaker 5: two things are true. The first thing that's true is like,
[19:29] Speaker 5: here are all the safety considerations I want you to remember,
[19:32] Speaker 5: like your name, all the things you just talked about.
[19:34] Speaker 5: Never travel alone, never go alone to a frat house,
[19:37] Speaker 5: all the things. Here's the second thing that's true. Now
[19:40] Speaker 5: I want to talk about if you do. I don't
[19:43] Speaker 5: want you to, but if it happens, because guess what?
[19:45] Speaker 5: All of us make mistakes. All of us are learning.
[19:47] Speaker 5: This is a dynamic environment you're exploring. things for the
[19:50] Speaker 5: first time alone. Having said that, if you do, here
[19:53] Speaker 5: are the things I want you to know. And the
[19:54] Speaker 5: things I want you to know are along the lines
[19:56] Speaker 5: of what you and I were just talking about, which
[19:58] Speaker 5: is that you can always withdraw consent. Always. And you should,
[20:02] Speaker 5: and you should do it loudly and in an empowered manner.
[20:05] Speaker 5: And if that isn't being listened to, you should yell
[20:09] Speaker 5: out loud, call for help, right? And that if and
[20:13] Speaker 5: when this happens and unfolds and it feels weird and embarrassing,
[20:16] Speaker 5: I got you. We will together work to make it okay.
[20:21] Speaker 5: But you can always protect yourself. It's never too late.
[20:25] Speaker 5: And being able to talk about what to do if
[20:27] Speaker 5: you're stuck, that they can always call you to arrange
[20:31] Speaker 5: someone to come pick them up, that there are always
[20:34] Speaker 5: options to get out and how you would deal with
[20:37] Speaker 5: the social embarrassment of it. Because let's be honest, part
[20:41] Speaker 5: of the calculation kids are making is like, if I
[20:43] Speaker 5: do something here, and this is on both sides, the
[20:46] Speaker 5: boys who didn't intervene, part of their conscious or unconscious
[20:50] Speaker 5: calculation is like, if I do something here, if I intervene,
[20:52] Speaker 5: if I'm the one who says, no, this isn't cool,
[20:54] Speaker 5: what is the emotional and social price I'm going to pay?
[20:58] Speaker 5: So are girls. If I say, no, I changed my mind.
[21:01] Speaker 5: Let me out of here. What's going on? What is
[21:03] Speaker 5: the emotional and social cost I'm going to pay? And
[21:05] Speaker 5: they're not wrong. They may pay a social cost. Maybe
[21:09] Speaker 5: the group rejects them now. Maybe the boys don't want
[21:11] Speaker 5: to date her, right? And we need to talk to
[21:13] Speaker 5: our kids about that. You're afraid there might be a
[21:16] Speaker 5: social cost.
[21:17] Speaker 2: You're right.
[21:18] Speaker 5: Let's talk about that. There may be a social cost.
[21:20] Speaker 5: And what does that mean? And how do you cope
[21:22] Speaker 5: with that? And how do we talk about it? And
[21:24] Speaker 5: how do you pivot to a friend group that's safer?
[21:26] Speaker 5: And how do you mourn that occurrence if you are
[21:30] Speaker 5: rejected because you did the right thing, because you didn't
[21:33] Speaker 5: protect yourself? How do you handle that?
[21:34] Speaker 2: You're right.
[21:35] Speaker 5: That will feel bad. That will feel like a version
[21:37] Speaker 5: of a crisis. That will feel like a really unwanted transition.
[21:41] Speaker 5: But I got you. The family has you. We will
[21:43] Speaker 5: help you figure it out. We will help you and
[21:46] Speaker 5: support you find a new friend group. We will remove
[21:49] Speaker 5: you from the scenario if we need to. But you
[21:51] Speaker 5: must do the right thing on behalf of yourself or
[21:53] Speaker 5: on behalf of another potential victim. So I think that's
[21:56] Speaker 5: where the conversation hasn't been as robust, not because there's
[22:01] Speaker 5: parents that aren't incredibly well-meaning, but because thinking through the
[22:06] Speaker 5: entire scenario is painful, but we have to go all
[22:09] Speaker 5: the way there to the moment of decision or the
[22:12] Speaker 5: moment of crisis and help our kids think through it. Again,
[22:15] Speaker 5: brain's not fully developed until 25. Maybe they don't exactly
[22:19] Speaker 5: have the executive functioning to think through, how is this
[22:21] Speaker 5: going to feel on the other side?
[22:23] Speaker 2: I did read several times, I'm not sure exactly where,
[22:26] Speaker 2: but that she did want to leave Cornell. And that's
[22:28] Speaker 2: what we were just talking about, how you were saying
[22:30] Speaker 2: you want to remove yourself from the situation. Well, she
[22:33] Speaker 2: wanted to remove herself from the situation completely. I'm sure
[22:35] Speaker 2: that everyone was talking about it. Everyone knew who she was.
[22:38] Speaker 2: I'm sure the conversation took off. I'm sure there were
[22:41] Speaker 2: so many added details to what even occurred that night.
[22:44] Speaker 2: I'm sure she felt as if she couldn't even walk
[22:45] Speaker 2: around campus without being ridiculed, stared at, talked about. And
[22:50] Speaker 2: then the fact that she probably did have a conversation
[22:52] Speaker 2: with her parents and did want to leave Cornell and
[22:55] Speaker 2: wanted to go back to her hometown and probably needed
[22:57] Speaker 2: therapy and needed to regroup and that they wouldn't let her. Well,
[23:01] Speaker 2: I mean, she could have left. It's not like they
[23:03] Speaker 2: made her, you know, stay there. But the fact that
[23:05] Speaker 2: they wouldn't return her tuition money, you know, I really
[23:08] Speaker 2: that really bothers me that Cornell wasn't more behind her.
[23:11] Speaker 2: What's your takeaway?
[23:12] Speaker 5: I find it inexcusable, unacceptable and shocking. there is no question.
[23:19] Speaker 5: I can't even believe we're having this conversation, but there's
[23:21] Speaker 5: no question that the school should have done anything and
[23:24] Speaker 5: everything they could to support this family and the aftermath,
[23:27] Speaker 5: including relieving the financial burden of the dilemma you're describing.
[23:31] Speaker 5: There's a reality component to it. We can say all
[23:34] Speaker 5: the right words and the right phrases. Oh, it will
[23:37] Speaker 5: build resilience and people will write essays and there's a
[23:40] Speaker 5: way to move forward and all the things. But this
[23:43] Speaker 5: isn't a theoretical trauma. This is an incredibly If what
[23:47] Speaker 5: is being alleged occurred, that is a gang rape. And
[23:55] Speaker 5: so if this family needed to leave to go heal,
[23:58] Speaker 5: they should be supported in every way they possibly can.
[24:00] Speaker 5: And it's incredible that that didn't happen. And it makes
[24:07] Speaker 5: sense to me. I'm not saying this is the only trajectory,
[24:10] Speaker 5: but it makes sense to me that the Jane Doe,
[24:12] Speaker 5: a Jane Doe in this scenario would need to restart.
[24:18] Speaker 5: go underground and get the support and love of her
[24:21] Speaker 5: family and clinical intervention and all the things and staying
[24:25] Speaker 5: on campus where the crisis and trauma occurred could be
[24:29] Speaker 5: contraindicated to say the least.
[24:39] Speaker 2: What are your thoughts on fraternities? I've had so many
[24:42] Speaker 2: people I've had this conversation with and they're just like,
[24:44] Speaker 2: we should just shut them down. Like they, They shouldn't
[24:46] Speaker 2: be on campus. It just breeds this type of behavior
[24:50] Speaker 2: with this criminal activity and the sexual activity and the
[24:56] Speaker 2: statistics that we talked about earlier. Why do colleges continue
[24:59] Speaker 2: to support it? What are your thoughts on that before
[25:02] Speaker 2: we go?
[25:02] Speaker 5: Yeah, I was just reading something this morning. I just
[25:05] Speaker 5: did like a cursory review, but something around that there
[25:10] Speaker 5: had been allegations of various fraternities at Cornell not following
[25:16] Speaker 5: the rules around underage drinking and holding events and parties
[25:20] Speaker 5: in which they were serving alcohol, et cetera, and the
[25:24] Speaker 5: university not following through with their stated protocol, which is
[25:28] Speaker 5: to investigate, put them on probation and at times shut
[25:31] Speaker 5: them down for three years if they're violating the protocol.
[25:36] Speaker 5: And instead it looks like they adjusted the protocol. All
[25:39] Speaker 5: this to say, part of this is systemic, right? Universities
[25:43] Speaker 5: that have fraternities don't do a good job often or
[25:48] Speaker 5: any job often to execute and implement the rules of engagement.
[25:54] Speaker 5: And so fraternities often are engaged in, not all, I
[25:59] Speaker 5: want to make sure I'm clear on this, not all,
[26:01] Speaker 5: but often are engaged in systemic organized hazing and lots
[26:05] Speaker 5: of activities that result in underage people being served alcohol
[26:10] Speaker 5: illegally and don't do anything. And part of that is
[26:13] Speaker 5: based in finances and money and a version of popularity,
[26:17] Speaker 5: if you will, because if a school removes fraternities or
[26:20] Speaker 5: they're less fun, so to speak, then perhaps they're not
[26:23] Speaker 5: as popular in all the ways. So I think part
[26:26] Speaker 5: of it is a systemic issue that the schools need
[26:29] Speaker 5: to do a much better job of monitoring. And then
[26:32] Speaker 5: speaking as it relates to the fraternities themselves, there has
[26:37] Speaker 5: to be a much larger standard around moral and ethical
[26:44] Speaker 5: protocols that each fraternity takes on in a much more
[26:48] Speaker 5: serious manner. the lack of it and the ongoing issues
[26:53] Speaker 5: around underage drinking, hazing, and sexual aggression against women certainly
[26:58] Speaker 5: suggests that a greater conversation needs to be had around
[27:02] Speaker 5: how campuses can monitor and how the fraternities themselves show
[27:08] Speaker 5: up when behavior violates their stated objectives and goals. So
[27:14] Speaker 5: I don't fall on a super black and white, like
[27:17] Speaker 5: they all should be shut down, but I I think
[27:19] Speaker 5: the discussion has to not just be philosophical, but get
[27:23] Speaker 5: really aggressive in terms of how they're monitored on a
[27:27] Speaker 5: macro level and how fraternities show up on a micro level.
[27:32] Speaker 5: What is happening at Cornell should change the conversation in
[27:36] Speaker 5: a way that it never has been.
[27:37] Speaker 2: I mean, I think that's all of our greatest wish.
[27:40] Speaker 2: You know, it's almost as if this just popped into
[27:42] Speaker 2: my mind while you were talking, but in order for
[27:44] Speaker 2: them to keep their charters or to have their charters,
[27:47] Speaker 2: I mean, maybe it should just be, you know, basic
[27:50] Speaker 2: education that they have to take courses before they're allowed
[27:53] Speaker 2: to operate and they have to do continuing education. They
[27:56] Speaker 2: have to have these topics talked about, about, you know,
[28:00] Speaker 2: the statistics of sexual abuse and alcohol and, um, I
[28:05] Speaker 2: don't know. I mean, that was just a thought that
[28:06] Speaker 2: popped into my mind.
[28:08] Speaker 5: As you're talking, I'm like co-creating something in my mind. Right.
[28:11] Speaker 5: Like they do that. And then they have to appear
[28:12] Speaker 5: before like the college board once or twice a year
[28:17] Speaker 5: to show their compliance and review their behavior. And if
[28:20] Speaker 5: there are any violations that there's an automatic protocol, there's
[28:24] Speaker 5: such a, an environment of allowance, of facilitation. It is
[28:32] Speaker 5: ubiquitous and sort of like not talked about. Everyone sort
[28:37] Speaker 5: of understands that universities do a lot to keep their
[28:40] Speaker 5: fraternities going and being a source of like fun and
[28:44] Speaker 5: a draw to the universities. And it's just, I mean,
[28:48] Speaker 5: this isn't new news, but what I hope is, news
[28:52] Speaker 5: is that this is so in the collective consciousness of
[28:55] Speaker 5: everybody right now, which is horrifying in terms of the
[28:59] Speaker 5: event itself, but I'm hoping it shifts something. We as
[29:02] Speaker 5: a society cannot let this go. And it's at the
[29:05] Speaker 5: micro level in terms of how we talk to our
[29:07] Speaker 5: sons and daughters, and then it's at the system level
[29:11] Speaker 5: in terms of deeply exploring what should be shifted and
[29:14] Speaker 5: how to sustain it.
[29:16] Speaker 2: Just one last question. What is the psychological effect on
[29:20] Speaker 2: sexual assault survivors who are watching Jane Doe's story unfold,
[29:25] Speaker 2: especially for those women out there that never actually came
[29:28] Speaker 2: forward and never actually reported anything? Is there some positive shift?
[29:34] Speaker 4: Maybe it'll cause others to come forward?
[29:36] Speaker 2: Yeah.
[29:37] Speaker 5: I want to answer that from a number of perspectives.
[29:40] Speaker 5: I think we see when people are listening to podcasts,
[29:45] Speaker 5: for example, or about to read something, an article, there's
[29:47] Speaker 5: like the trigger warning. This is a giant trigger warning
[29:50] Speaker 5: for men that have been victims, right? And it's hard
[29:53] Speaker 5: to turn it off, so to speak, right? It's It's
[29:58] Speaker 5: in the news and in many people's consciousness day to day.
[30:02] Speaker 5: All this to say women who are victims and who
[30:05] Speaker 5: have never come forward or who have come forward may
[30:08] Speaker 5: be extremely triggered and activated. And this can bring back
[30:13] Speaker 5: or bring up unexplored trauma or trauma that has been explored,
[30:18] Speaker 5: but re-trigger it. This is very fraught for all victims,
[30:21] Speaker 5: both those who have come forward and been supported and
[30:23] Speaker 5: those who haven't. And I don't want to downplay that truth.
[30:28] Speaker 5: And if we know women in our lives who have
[30:31] Speaker 5: been through something in this arena, it is a really
[30:35] Speaker 5: good time to check in. To get to what you're
[30:38] Speaker 5: talking about, I think it's possible that there's a through
[30:41] Speaker 5: line here that there is much support and outrage, which
[30:45] Speaker 5: is hopefully hopeful to women that have been victims and who, again,
[30:51] Speaker 5: have come forward or not, There's also a lot of
[30:54] Speaker 5: folks who are still engaging in victim shaming. And so
[30:58] Speaker 5: these same women that we're talking about are being exposed
[31:02] Speaker 5: to that truth as well. It's not just an idea.
[31:04] Speaker 5: There are people still blaming this Jane Doe in all
[31:08] Speaker 5: the ways that we've talked about and not. And so
[31:11] Speaker 5: the messaging I think to any victim is we hear you,
[31:15] Speaker 5: we see you. We understand the truth that this is fraught,
[31:18] Speaker 5: that this is multilayered. It's not all one way. There's
[31:21] Speaker 5: so much love and support. and hope for victims. And
[31:24] Speaker 5: there are also people who are going to attempt to
[31:27] Speaker 5: shame victims and that we have victims on both sides.
[31:31] Speaker 5: It's not just about a hero story. It's about helping
[31:35] Speaker 5: victims when they come forward and they are shamed, they
[31:38] Speaker 5: are ostracized, they are excluded, they are blamed and being
[31:41] Speaker 5: there for them on both sides. Do you know what
[31:43] Speaker 5: I mean? Not just the strength of coming forward, but
[31:45] Speaker 5: like the devastation of having people say or intuit terrible
[31:50] Speaker 5: things about them both.
[31:52] Speaker 2: Exactly. And I did hear Jane Doe's attorney made a statement,
[31:57] Speaker 2: I believe it was yesterday, just that she's not doing well,
[32:01] Speaker 2: which is sad to hear. I would just hope from
[32:07] Speaker 2: our hearts out here that she is living in her
[32:12] Speaker 2: bubble with her parents and her family and her support
[32:15] Speaker 2: group and that she does see the support out there
[32:19] Speaker 2: for her. And I don't know, where do you think
[32:23] Speaker 2: that she's at? I'm just asking from a psychological perspective.
[32:27] Speaker 2: I know he said she wasn't doing well, and that
[32:29] Speaker 2: makes me extremely sad. But what is your take on that?
[32:32] Speaker 5: Well, the very reason why she didn't come forward at
[32:35] Speaker 5: the beginning is we're living right now. We're living right now.
[32:39] Speaker 5: So it's her nightmare outside of the event itself, which
[32:44] Speaker 5: is that she's under all this public scrutiny. She's being shamed.
[32:48] Speaker 5: It's suggested that she co-created, even deserved this awful trauma
[32:52] Speaker 5: to happen to her. And this was her nightmare and
[32:55] Speaker 5: why she didn't come forward to begin with, I assume.
[32:58] Speaker 5: And so all of the ways in which she was
[32:59] Speaker 5: avoiding this very moment are now here. And on top
[33:03] Speaker 5: of that, no doubt, she's reliving the actual trauma because
[33:06] Speaker 5: it's being discussed in the public arena and The ways
[33:11] Speaker 5: in the civil lawsuit and the criminal investigation, she, I imagine,
[33:16] Speaker 5: is having to relive it in an investigative way as well.
[33:20] Speaker 2: Right.
[33:20] Speaker 5: So there isn't an aspect under which it's not coming
[33:25] Speaker 5: at her.
[33:25] Speaker 2: In some direction, in some way.
[33:27] Speaker 5: That's right. So in a way, this is the worst time.
[33:31] Speaker 5: And from a psychological perspective, the trajectory around trauma is... Typically,
[33:38] Speaker 5: and I put that in big time quotes because trauma
[33:41] Speaker 5: is so varied and so awful and its own mysterious beast.
[33:45] Speaker 5: But oftentimes when the trauma starts to come up and out,
[33:49] Speaker 5: it sounds cliche, but is when the healing can begin
[33:52] Speaker 5: because all the feelings that you've avoided and haven't wanted
[33:55] Speaker 5: to look at start coming up and out. When feelings
[33:58] Speaker 5: stay inside our body and are suppressed, we have shame
[34:01] Speaker 5: and we have symptoms, whether it's anxiety, depression, irritability, too
[34:05] Speaker 5: much sleeping, too little sleeping, eating too much. Our body,
[34:09] Speaker 5: it goes into fight or flight or freeze, and it's
[34:13] Speaker 5: stuck there. So I hope this is the beginning of unstuckness,
[34:17] Speaker 5: but that's like a longer term goal. Right now, she's
[34:19] Speaker 5: in like the fraught, absolute raw trauma of it all.
[34:24] Speaker 5: All right.
[34:24] Speaker 2: Well, thank you, Dr. Golcher, for being here today and
[34:26] Speaker 2: discussing all of this with us. It's very... I felt
[34:31] Speaker 2: like instead of taking this podcast in a legal direction,
[34:35] Speaker 2: I really wanted to discuss it with you and take
[34:36] Speaker 2: it in a psychological direction. So thank you for being
[34:39] Speaker 2: here and doing that. Also, thank you for kind of
[34:41] Speaker 2: giving us guidelines as far as how to talk to
[34:43] Speaker 2: our children, because like I was telling you, I do
[34:45] Speaker 2: have three children and I want to have the conversation
[34:47] Speaker 2: with them. And I think everybody out there listening who
[34:50] Speaker 2: has children should have the same conversations. But I wanted
[34:53] Speaker 2: to just make sure that we were doing it in
[34:55] Speaker 2: an appropriate manner. So thank you for guiding us in
[34:57] Speaker 2: that as well. So anyway, thank you so much for
[34:59] Speaker 2: being here on Legally Brunette. We really appreciate it.
[35:01] Speaker 5: Thanks for having me.
[35:03] Speaker 2: All right, what was your takeaway? I think it's so important,
[35:07] Speaker 2: and I know she's a psychologist, so I think it
[35:09] Speaker 2: was great that we had her on. I think it's
[35:10] Speaker 2: so important to have these conversations with children. I really do.
[35:14] Speaker 2: And I think it was so... good to have this
[35:16] Speaker 2: conversation with her so that she could give guidelines and
[35:18] Speaker 2: a little bit of guidance as far as like, how
[35:20] Speaker 2: detailed do you get about it? If I'm going to
[35:22] Speaker 2: have this conversation with Luke and Keller, cause I want
[35:24] Speaker 2: Luke and Keller to be the boys that do the
[35:26] Speaker 2: right thing.
[35:26] Speaker 3: Well, what I got away from it was what I
[35:28] Speaker 3: took away from it was when she talked about, cause
[35:32] Speaker 3: sometimes you don't want to say like, don't drink.
[35:37] Speaker 5: Right.
[35:37] Speaker 4: But if you drink, call me and I'll pick you up.
[35:40] Speaker 5: Right.
[35:40] Speaker 3: And then it's like, now I'm telling them, but it's
[35:42] Speaker 3: okay if you do, but she, was very smart in
[35:46] Speaker 3: explaining that you need to emphasize, in my example, there's
[35:51] Speaker 3: no drinking underage, it's never acceptable, it's not okay, whatever, yada, yada, yada.
[35:57] Speaker 3: Then you can follow it up with, but if you
[36:01] Speaker 3: get in a situation that you did end up drinking
[36:04] Speaker 3: underage and there's an issue, you need to call me
[36:06] Speaker 3: and we'll work it through. And you have, there might
[36:10] Speaker 3: be embarrassment, there might be shame, there might be worrisome,
[36:13] Speaker 3: but we'll get through it.
[36:15] Speaker 2: You know, I have had that conversation with Annabelle because
[36:17] Speaker 2: she is 13. And I understand that right now that
[36:20] Speaker 2: that drinking isn't an issue. However, there are a lot
[36:23] Speaker 2: of kids that are her age that are vaping and
[36:25] Speaker 2: things like that. And I have said to her multiple
[36:28] Speaker 2: times that if she is ever in a situation where
[36:31] Speaker 2: she's not comfortable, that she can reach out to me immediately.
[36:34] Speaker 2: And she doesn't even have to say anything in the text.
[36:36] Speaker 2: She can just say, I need you or I need
[36:39] Speaker 2: you to come get me. And I said to her,
[36:41] Speaker 2: I won't judge. I won't be upset at you. You
[36:45] Speaker 2: won't be in trouble because I think that's very important
[36:47] Speaker 2: that you have to tell children that.
[36:48] Speaker 3: Well, you want them to feel you're a safe parent.
[36:49] Speaker 3: You can come to me when there's an issue. You
[36:52] Speaker 3: want your kids to say, I need dad's help.
[36:54] Speaker 4: I need mom's help. Not mom's going to kill me.
[36:56] Speaker 4: Dad's going to kill me. So that's the relationship we
[37:00] Speaker 4: need to have.
[37:01] Speaker 2: I also thought it was important because I also grappled
[37:04] Speaker 2: with when I have this conversation with the boys. How
[37:07] Speaker 2: much detail do you go into? And I think she
[37:09] Speaker 2: did a great job of saying, you can talk about consent,
[37:13] Speaker 2: you can talk about, you know, bodies and what's appropriate
[37:17] Speaker 2: and how you have autonomy over your own body, and
[37:19] Speaker 2: it's not appropriate. But you don't have to go into,
[37:22] Speaker 2: you know, details because they are still young. But obviously,
[37:26] Speaker 2: I want to make it age appropriate as to you know,
[37:29] Speaker 2: women can say no, and women have autonomy over their
[37:32] Speaker 2: own body. And you're not you when they say no,
[37:35] Speaker 2: they mean no. And you you know what I mean?
[37:37] Speaker 2: So I thought it was an interesting conversation about how
[37:40] Speaker 2: to give a little detail because you want to be straightforward.
[37:45] Speaker 2: You want your children to understand what you're talking about.
[37:46] Speaker 2: You don't want to talk in circles or talk in
[37:48] Speaker 2: such vagueness that they don't really understand what you are saying,
[37:51] Speaker 2: but also not having to go into so much detail
[37:54] Speaker 2: with an 11 year old.
[37:55] Speaker 4: Cause you don't want them to be in a situation
[37:56] Speaker 4: where like, is this what mom was talking about?
[37:58] Speaker 5: I don't know.
[37:58] Speaker 4: I don't think it was this. She wasn't very clear.
[38:00] Speaker 3: Right.
[38:01] Speaker 4: So I'm okay to do this.
[38:02] Speaker 2: Right.
[38:02] Speaker 3: Exactly.
[38:03] Speaker 2: So anyway, I thought that her guidelines as far as
[38:06] Speaker 2: having conversation with children was was spot on and was
[38:10] Speaker 2: interesting and helpful as well. So now as parents, you
[38:14] Speaker 2: and I have to have these conversations with our children.
[38:18] Speaker 2: And I think it's important.
[38:19] Speaker 4: Well, even adults, children too.
[38:21] Speaker 5: Right. Exactly.
[38:22] Speaker 3: Children in college that we need to have that talk to,
[38:24] Speaker 3: because this is obviously a college age issue.
[38:26] Speaker 5: Right.
[38:26] Speaker 2: Well, you have a daughter. So Chanel's in college. She's
[38:28] Speaker 2: college age. What, what, conversation would you have with her?
[38:32] Speaker 2: Let's practice. Yeah, put you on the spot.
[38:34] Speaker 4: What would you say? I'm not going to ask you
[38:35] Speaker 4: to have a talk with her.
[38:36] Speaker 2: Well, prior to talking.
[38:37] Speaker 3: Well, I always say that... This is my experience from Target.
[38:40] Speaker 3: I always say, if you're with a friend that's stealing,
[38:43] Speaker 3: then you advise them not to. If they're going to
[38:46] Speaker 3: do it anyway, you leave. You don't hang out with them.
[38:49] Speaker 3: You don't walk out with them. You don't keep doing...
[38:51] Speaker 3: You don't participate just by being with them. And the
[38:54] Speaker 3: same could go for here too, is... If you're at
[38:59] Speaker 3: a party or at a place that's uncomfortable, you need
[39:01] Speaker 3: to leave. Don't just be like, well, I'm not going
[39:03] Speaker 3: to drink and do drugs, so I can just stay here.
[39:05] Speaker 3: Because now you're still a part of it. You will
[39:08] Speaker 3: still be engaged in it in some fashion, and you
[39:11] Speaker 3: might get hurt.
[39:12] Speaker 2: Yeah, but she also talks about the group influence factor,
[39:15] Speaker 2: whereas you don't want to be the one that's like,
[39:17] Speaker 2: the kid that's different or the kid.
[39:20] Speaker 5: I was.
[39:21] Speaker 2: Shane's never had a drink of alcohol in his life.
[39:24] Speaker 2: So you're talking about someone that very. She shouldn't be hanging.
[39:27] Speaker 4: Out with those people though.
[39:28] Speaker 3: So if you're at a party and it's inappropriate and
[39:31] Speaker 3: it's getting out of line, yeah, stand out, leave. Don't
[39:36] Speaker 3: be a part of that. Let people know what your
[39:39] Speaker 3: standards are. Let people know like, I don't do this.
[39:41] Speaker 3: So don't even ask me.
[39:43] Speaker 2: Yeah, but I think that's what's difficult for kids, especially
[39:46] Speaker 2: college age.
[39:47] Speaker 4: It's easy for me to say.
[39:48] Speaker 2: I'm just saying that's what needs to be.
[39:49] Speaker 5: Done, though. Right.
[39:50] Speaker 2: So anyway, what I'm saying is I think that you
[39:52] Speaker 2: and I together need to have conversations with our children.
[39:54] Speaker 2: But I feel like a dad having a conversation with
[39:57] Speaker 2: his daughter is different and taken differently than a mother
[40:01] Speaker 2: having a conversation with her daughter. And the same for
[40:04] Speaker 2: the boys. Me having a conversation with the boys from
[40:07] Speaker 2: a female perspective as to I can talk from my
[40:11] Speaker 2: perspective as a female. Well, they need both.
[40:13] Speaker 4: They need both.
[40:13] Speaker 2: Exactly. Exactly. So anyway, I hope you all out there
[40:16] Speaker 2: that have children can have these conversations with your children.
[40:19] Speaker 2: You can do it. And I feel like after this
[40:22] Speaker 2: conversation with the psychologist that we have some guidelines as
[40:24] Speaker 2: far as how to go about doing it and that
[40:26] Speaker 2: we can make sure that we're raising men that are
[40:30] Speaker 2: not part of the group chat, that we raise men
[40:33] Speaker 2: that can... Not monsters. Not monsters. We're raising men, not monsters,
[40:37] Speaker 2: that we raise men that can see that group chat,
[40:40] Speaker 2: see that it's disgusting, see that what's going on is
[40:43] Speaker 2: absolutely horrible. And instead of just not... Because a lot
[40:46] Speaker 2: of these boys, because there's like, what, 57 in that
[40:49] Speaker 2: group chat? They're complicit. I believe there's maybe only three
[40:52] Speaker 2: or four that are actually saying these horrific things. But
[40:56] Speaker 2: that means that there's 50 some other ones that are
[40:58] Speaker 2: seeing it, but they're complicit. They're not doing anything. They're
[41:02] Speaker 2: not calling 911. They're not going to this room and saying,
[41:06] Speaker 2: this is awful. I need to call someone and make
[41:09] Speaker 2: sure that this is, they're not doing anything. So not
[41:12] Speaker 2: only do I want to raise boys that aren't the
[41:14] Speaker 2: ones sending the disgusting text, but I want to raise
[41:16] Speaker 2: boys that aren't complicit to what's going on in those
[41:19] Speaker 2: text messages as well.
[41:20] Speaker 1: Mm-hmm.
[41:21] Speaker 5: Right?
[41:22] Speaker 4: Agreed.
[41:22] Speaker 2: Agreed.
[41:23] Speaker 5: Okay.
[41:23] Speaker 3: I'm going to go a step further and raise boys
[41:25] Speaker 3: that aren't even a part of that Snapchat group. Right.
[41:28] Speaker 4: I'm just kidding. It's going to happen.
[41:29] Speaker 2: Exactly. All right. Thank you guys so much for listening
[41:32] Speaker 2: to Legally Brunette. We hope that you enjoyed this episode
[41:35] Speaker 2: and that you took something away from this episode today
[41:38] Speaker 2: with a psychologist in the Cornell 7. As always, please
[41:41] Speaker 2: follow Legally Brunette wherever you listen to podcasts. And if
[41:45] Speaker 2: you have any recommendations of cases, you can always find
[41:47] Speaker 2: me on Instagram at And send me a message as
[41:49] Speaker 2: far as feedback or a case you would like us
[41:52] Speaker 2: to discuss. So thank you so much for listening. We
[41:54] Speaker 2: appreciate you.

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