# Legally Brunette: Lizzie Borden

An episode of [Two Ts In A Pod with Teddi Mellencamp and Tamra Judge](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1477524410), 22 Sep 2026, 49 min.

Audio: https://podtrac.com/pts/redirect.mp3/pscrb.fm/rss/p/mgln.ai/e/28/traffic.omny.fm/d/clips/e73c998e-6e60-432f-8610-ae210140c5b1/b85867f1-c5ec-44e0-9f79-b34d0160000c/8f3e9649-4fa0-4dd2-9c88-b4cd0039124e/audio.mp3?utm_source=Podcast&in_playlist=59f37943-e628-4810-8c3b-ae2b00156477

The gruesome double homicide that Lizzie Borden was accused of back in 1892 is being brought to light in Netflix's latest “Monsters” anthology… What did the docuseries get right & what was completely fabricated? Do we believe that Lizzie Borden actually killed her father and stepmother? See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

## Transcript

[0:01] Speaker 1: Hi guys, welcome to Legally Brunette. I'll be your host today,
[0:04] Speaker 1: Emily Simpson with.
[0:06] Speaker 2: Shane.
[0:07] Speaker 1: Okay, today we are going to get into the case
[0:10] Speaker 1: of Lizzie Borden. And I wanted to do this case
[0:13] Speaker 1: because it had come up, you know, recently in the
[0:16] Speaker 1: news because there's that new installment of Monsters on Netflix.
[0:20] Speaker 1: And so there is the interpretation or adaptation of the
[0:24] Speaker 1: Lizzie Borden case. However, I did not watch the Monsters episode.
[0:28] Speaker 1: I didn't want to watch it. because I wanted to
[0:31] Speaker 1: actually dive into this case and make this episode as
[0:36] Speaker 1: historically accurate as possible based upon what information I could find.
[0:39] Speaker 2: Okay. So. Are you bashing monsters and saying they don't
[0:45] Speaker 2: know what they're doing?
[0:46] Speaker 1: Well, I'm saying the feedback that I have read about
[0:49] Speaker 1: or seen is that it's not really an interpretation of
[0:53] Speaker 1: the facts. It's more of his artistic interpretation. Okay.
[0:59] Speaker 2: A storytelling kind of night. A storytelling.
[1:03] Speaker 1: He's a storyteller. So I would say, please feel free
[1:06] Speaker 1: to watch the monster version.
[1:07] Speaker 2: Still entertaining. Did you watch it?
[1:08] Speaker 1: No, I did not watch it.
[1:09] Speaker 2: Oh.
[1:10] Speaker 1: I didn't want to watch it because I wanted to
[1:13] Speaker 1: research this case as much as possible before talking about
[1:16] Speaker 1: it today by going back and actually looking at the trial,
[1:20] Speaker 1: the transcripts, the historical things that I could find so
[1:23] Speaker 1: that I could give an accurate, as accurate as possible
[1:27] Speaker 1: Let's get into the actual Lizzie Borden case. This is
[1:30] Speaker 1: an old, and this is considered a cold case because
[1:34] Speaker 1: we don't know. It's 130 something years later. Oh, okay.
[1:39] Speaker 2: It's a cold case. We haven't found the murderer yet?
[1:42] Speaker 1: Well, yeah, exactly.
[1:44] Speaker 2: She's still roaming the streets somewhere.
[1:46] Speaker 1: Somewhere. On August 4th of 1892, Andrew and Abby Borden
[1:50] Speaker 1: were found brutally murdered inside their Fall River, Massachusetts home.
[1:54] Speaker 1: Suspicion quickly fell on Andrew's daughter, Lizzie, turning the case
[1:58] Speaker 1: into one of America's most infamous unsolved mysteries. You tell
[2:02] Speaker 1: me if you recognize this. You might recognize the nursery
[2:05] Speaker 1: rhyme based on Lizzie Borden. Lizzie Borden took an ax
[2:09] Speaker 1: and gave her mother 40 whacks. When she saw what
[2:12] Speaker 1: she had done, she gave her father 41. Did you
[2:15] Speaker 1: ever hear that?
[2:16] Speaker 2: No, that doesn't sound like a nursery rhyme. It is.
[2:18] Speaker 1: It's like a... Sounds like.
[2:20] Speaker 2: A murderer's rhyme.
[2:21] Speaker 1: Yeah, but.
[2:22] Speaker 2: You've heard that before?
[2:24] Speaker 1: Yeah, as a kid. It was like when, you know,
[2:26] Speaker 1: like Red Rover. Say it again. Lizzie Borden took an
[2:29] Speaker 1: ax and gave her mother 40 whacks. When she saw
[2:32] Speaker 1: what she had done, she gave her father 41.
[2:34] Speaker 2: And it said Lizzie Borden in the... Little nursery rhyme? Yeah.
[2:40] Speaker 2: Never heard it.
[2:40] Speaker 1: Have you heard about this case before?
[2:42] Speaker 2: Must be a Middletown, Ohio thing.
[2:44] Speaker 1: I don't think it's an Ohio thing. All right, so
[2:47] Speaker 1: now we know that Netflix is revisiting the case in
[2:49] Speaker 1: the fourth season of Ryan Murphy and Ian Brennan's true
[2:52] Speaker 1: crime anthology, Monster, the Lizzie Borden story. It stars Ella
[2:56] Speaker 1: Beatty as Lizzie. You know Ella Beatty is... Oh, they
[2:59] Speaker 1: have actors in it? Well, who would they have in it?
[3:02] Speaker 2: Well, it could be like... Well, it doesn't have to
[3:04] Speaker 2: be an act. Like, I didn't know it was... produced
[3:07] Speaker 2: in such a way where it's like a scripted show
[3:09] Speaker 2: i thought maybe it was a documentary or something no.
[3:12] Speaker 1: It's the the monsters you know the remember we did
[3:15] Speaker 1: they did the lyle and mendez remember yeah.
[3:18] Speaker 2: But i don't i don't watch a show called monsters
[3:21] Speaker 2: they did the jeffrey dahmer one i didn't.
[3:24] Speaker 1: Watch the ed gain one anyway all.
[3:27] Speaker 2: Right okay so okay so it's a series with acting
[3:30] Speaker 2: yeah okay that's what that makes sense and why it's
[3:32] Speaker 2: not 100 accurate.
[3:34] Speaker 1: Right, it's a dramatization.
[3:37] Speaker 2: Okay, very good.
[3:38] Speaker 1: Right, and it stars Ella Beatty as Lizzie. It dramatizes
[3:41] Speaker 1: the family tensions, investigation, and trial that made Borden a
[3:44] Speaker 1: household name.
[3:45] Speaker 2: Who's that actress? Do we know her?
[3:47] Speaker 1: Yeah, it's Warren Beatty's daughter.
[3:48] Speaker 2: Oh, okay. I didn't know he had a daughter. I
[3:50] Speaker 2: don't know anything about his family.
[3:51] Speaker 1: You clearly don't.
[3:52] Speaker 2: His offspring. Okay.
[3:54] Speaker 1: All right, let's get into some background on Lizzie Borden.
[3:56] Speaker 1: So Lizzie... Andrew Borden was born on July 19th of
[4:00] Speaker 1: 1860 in Fall River, Massachusetts. By the way, I just
[4:03] Speaker 1: want to point out that the home that she grew
[4:05] Speaker 1: up in still exists. It is in Fall River, Massachusetts.
[4:08] Speaker 1: I would like to add it to our Someday Legally
[4:11] Speaker 1: Brunette tour.
[4:12] Speaker 2: I like how you had to say it's still in
[4:15] Speaker 2: the same place.
[4:16] Speaker 1: It's still in the same place.
[4:18] Speaker 2: It was not relocated. No.
[4:20] Speaker 1: And it is currently a bed and breakfast place. And
[4:23] Speaker 1: museum slash museum.
[4:25] Speaker 2: So it's marketed as Lizzie Borden's home. Yes.
[4:28] Speaker 1: And you can stay there. And the parlor where.
[4:30] Speaker 2: The- You can stay there.
[4:32] Speaker 1: Well, I don't want to stay there.
[4:33] Speaker 2: I'll stay somewhere else. I thought you wanted it on
[4:35] Speaker 2: your tour.
[4:36] Speaker 1: Yes, but I would visit it during the day and
[4:38] Speaker 1: have coffee and walk around. I would not stay. You
[4:40] Speaker 1: can stay the night in the room where the stepmother
[4:43] Speaker 1: was murdered. No, thank you. Absolutely not.
[4:47] Speaker 2: So you like true crime, but not that much.
[4:48] Speaker 1: Not that much.
[4:49] Speaker 2: No.
[4:50] Speaker 1: All right. So she lived with her older sister, Emma.
[4:52] Speaker 1: Her father was Andrew and her stepmother, Abby. And there
[4:56] Speaker 1: was the family's live-in maid, Bridget Sullivan, who they referred
[5:00] Speaker 1: to as Maggie. They called her Maggie.
[5:03] Speaker 2: Bridget. Yeah. Maggie, short for Bridget.
[5:06] Speaker 1: Well, you know, I was like, why did they call
[5:07] Speaker 1: her Maggie? And then I read that the previous maid
[5:10] Speaker 1: had been named Maggie. So it's like, oh, so they
[5:13] Speaker 1: just keep calling the maids Maggie. I mean, that's, I
[5:15] Speaker 1: don't know. That's kind of rude. Andrew Borden was a
[5:18] Speaker 1: successful businessman and property owner, but the family lived more
[5:22] Speaker 1: modestly than many other wealthy families in Fall River. Tension
[5:25] Speaker 1: reportedly existed within the household, particularly over Andrew's money and property. However,
[5:31] Speaker 1: the exact nature of the family's private relationships remains disputed.
[5:36] Speaker 1: So from what I understand through the research I did,
[5:39] Speaker 1: He has two daughters, Lizzie and Emma. They both live
[5:42] Speaker 1: in the house. Lizzie's like 32 or something at the time,
[5:44] Speaker 1: and her sister's like in her 40s. But when this
[5:47] Speaker 1: murder takes place, this double homicide, the older sister is
[5:51] Speaker 1: out of town visiting a friend.
[5:53] Speaker 2: Okay, so she's cleared.
[5:54] Speaker 1: She's gone. Lizzie is home. I read through all this
[5:58] Speaker 1: research that I was doing that there was a lot
[6:00] Speaker 1: of tension in the home because Lizzie and her older sister, Emma,
[6:04] Speaker 1: were mad at their father because he was a very
[6:06] Speaker 1: wealthy businessman, but he had them live more modestly. I
[6:10] Speaker 1: don't think there was indoor plumbing in their home. So
[6:13] Speaker 1: they wanted to live in like the fancier, nicer part
[6:16] Speaker 1: of town because he could afford it.
[6:18] Speaker 2: They wanted a toilet.
[6:18] Speaker 1: They wanted a toilet, but he didn't let them. But
[6:21] Speaker 1: he would go out and look at all his properties.
[6:23] Speaker 1: And so I just picture these older sisters who aren't
[6:27] Speaker 1: married and don't have children living in this home off
[6:30] Speaker 1: of their dad with a stepmom. And then they're mad
[6:34] Speaker 1: that they don't have like a more prestigious, wealthy lifestyle.
[6:38] Speaker 1: So they're irritated at him. They're also very irritated by
[6:41] Speaker 1: the fact that he has a home. They refer to
[6:44] Speaker 1: it as like grandmother's home. So I assume it's like
[6:46] Speaker 1: a family home in this Borden family. And he deeds
[6:51] Speaker 1: the house over to his wife.
[6:55] Speaker 2: Not their mother.
[6:56] Speaker 1: Not their mother. Their mother died when I believe Lizzie
[6:58] Speaker 1: was young, like two or something like that.
[7:00] Speaker 2: Okay.
[7:00] Speaker 1: So Abby's been their stepmother for many years, but the
[7:03] Speaker 1: father ends up giving her sister, so Abby's sister, some
[7:09] Speaker 1: property that belonged in the Borden family.
[7:12] Speaker 2: Oh, their step-aunt.
[7:13] Speaker 1: Step, yes.
[7:14] Speaker 2: If that's such a thing.
[7:15] Speaker 1: And it's like a step-half-aunt because I believe it's Abby's half-sister.
[7:19] Speaker 2: Once removed.
[7:19] Speaker 1: Something like that.
[7:20] Speaker 2: By marriage. Right.
[7:21] Speaker 1: Okay. So let's get to the actual day of the murder. Murders. Murders.
[7:27] Speaker 1: Double homicide. So it's August 4th, 1892, 6.15 a.m. in
[7:32] Speaker 1: the morning. The household maid, Bridget, Maggie Sullivan, wakes up
[7:36] Speaker 1: and unlocks the doors. Around 6.30 a.m., the stepmother, Abby Borden,
[7:40] Speaker 1: comes downstairs. Around 7 a.m., the father, Andrew Borden, and
[7:47] Speaker 1: there's also an uncle staying. So they have a visitor.
[7:49] Speaker 1: His name's John Morse. He's staying in the guest bedroom upstairs.
[7:54] Speaker 2: Okay.
[7:56] Speaker 1: They come down and join Abby for breakfast.
[7:58] Speaker 2: They have a guest bedroom? They don't have indoor plumbing?
[8:00] Speaker 1: They have a guest bedroom, but they don't have indoor plumbing, yeah.
[8:03] Speaker 2: Okay.
[8:04] Speaker 1: Yeah, and I guess the upstairs I read was remodeled
[8:08] Speaker 1: or something, but it's weird. There's no hallway, so you
[8:10] Speaker 1: have to go through rooms to get to the next room.
[8:15] Speaker 2: Does the bed and breakfast have indoor plumbing?
[8:18] Speaker 1: I don't know. I would assume so now, but.
[8:21] Speaker 2: I don't know. Unless you want to make it accurately
[8:25] Speaker 2: representing the time period. Right.
[8:27] Speaker 1: So we're on the morning of the murders. At 7 a.m.,
[8:30] Speaker 1: the father, Andrew Borden, and the uncle, who's staying in
[8:33] Speaker 1: the guest room, join Abby, who is the stepmother, for breakfast.
[8:37] Speaker 1: Lizzie stays upstairs in her room. Between 9 and 9.30 a.m.,
[8:42] Speaker 1: we know that John Morse, the visitor, leaves the house.
[8:46] Speaker 1: And Abby is believed to be murdered shortly after this
[8:49] Speaker 1: time frame in the upstairs guest room.
[8:52] Speaker 2: Like as if she was waiting for the visitor to leave, maybe?
[8:55] Speaker 1: Well, the way I understood it was that she had
[8:57] Speaker 1: gone up to the guest bedroom to like tidy it
[9:00] Speaker 1: up because he had been staying there and she's putting
[9:01] Speaker 1: shams on a pillow or something like that. So Abby
[9:05] Speaker 1: had come downstairs for breakfast, then goes back upstairs. Between
[9:11] Speaker 1: 1045 a.m. and 11 a.m., Andrew Borden, well, then Andrew leaves.
[9:14] Speaker 1: This is the dad. He leaves and he goes and
[9:15] Speaker 1: he walks around like the main part of town to
[9:17] Speaker 1: look at all his properties. I just picture him walking
[9:19] Speaker 1: around like, I own that.
[9:20] Speaker 2: With a clipboard and he's.
[9:21] Speaker 1: Like, check.
[9:22] Speaker 2: I still own that one. Check.
[9:24] Speaker 1: Yes, I own that. So he goes and he looks
[9:26] Speaker 1: at his properties and then he walks home. He comes
[9:29] Speaker 1: in and I believe Maggie, the housekeeper, lets him into
[9:34] Speaker 1: the house. Bridget. Bridget Maggie. Bridget Maggie Sullivan.
[9:38] Speaker 2: I bet you they had a name tag. For the
[9:40] Speaker 2: old housekeeper, and it was Maggie. And he was too
[9:43] Speaker 2: cheap to buy a new name tag.
[9:44] Speaker 1: Right.
[9:44] Speaker 2: So he's like, you're Maggie. Yes.
[9:46] Speaker 1: So every housekeeper is now Maggie in the Borden household.
[9:50] Speaker 2: Yes.
[9:51] Speaker 1: So Andrew Borden returns home after walking around and looking
[9:54] Speaker 1: at all his properties, and Bridget lets him in after
[9:57] Speaker 1: finding the door locked. And then we know that Andrew
[10:00] Speaker 1: is killed shortly after that while resting on the sitting
[10:03] Speaker 1: room sofa. So he goes into this parlor area to
[10:06] Speaker 1: take a nap because he's tired from looking at all
[10:07] Speaker 1: his properties and all his- Counting his money. Counting his money.
[10:11] Speaker 2: Yeah.
[10:12] Speaker 1: So he goes into the parlor. He sits down on
[10:15] Speaker 1: one of those ornate kind of fancy sofas to take
[10:18] Speaker 1: a nap. falls asleep, and then gets bludgeoned to death
[10:23] Speaker 1: in his face. All right, this all happens.
[10:25] Speaker 2: Where's Bridget?
[10:27] Speaker 1: That's the question. Bridget's the maid. So Bridget apparently let
[10:30] Speaker 1: him into the house around 1045 a.m. And then she
[10:33] Speaker 1: goes upstairs to the third floor to rest. So her
[10:36] Speaker 1: room's up on the third floor of the house. Now
[10:38] Speaker 1: the question really is, where is Lizzie? Because Lizzie puts herself,
[10:43] Speaker 1: sometimes she's in the house. I've read so many accounts
[10:45] Speaker 1: of where she is, I can't really figure out where
[10:47] Speaker 1: she is. But sometimes she's in the house ironing in
[10:50] Speaker 1: the dining room. And then other times she claims she
[10:53] Speaker 1: was eating pears in the barn. And then another time
[10:57] Speaker 1: she was in the barn looking for lead sinkers because
[11:00] Speaker 1: they were going on a fishing trip at some point.
[11:03] Speaker 1: So she's kind of all around.
[11:05] Speaker 2: Okay. Yeah.
[11:07] Speaker 1: All right, so then around 11 a.m., this is when
[11:09] Speaker 1: Lizzie discovers and she calls out to Bridget. She discovers
[11:13] Speaker 1: her father dead in the parlor on the couch.
[11:15] Speaker 2: Okay, so your defense is Bridget lets him in, the father, right?
[11:20] Speaker 1: Right.
[11:20] Speaker 2: He goes and rests and Bridget goes upstairs and rests.
[11:23] Speaker 2: And then the daughter, Lizzie, walks in and sees the
[11:27] Speaker 2: father bludgeoned to death.
[11:28] Speaker 1: Right.
[11:29] Speaker 2: Okay.
[11:29] Speaker 1: So around 11 a.m., she calls out to Bridget, the maid,
[11:33] Speaker 1: claiming that someone has murdered her father. She says like, Bridget, come.
[11:39] Speaker 1: My father's dead or something like that. So then the
[11:41] Speaker 1: maid comes. And then she asks the maid to go
[11:45] Speaker 1: get the neighbor. The neighbor's name is Adelaide Churchill. And
[11:49] Speaker 1: she comes and arrives shortly after that. Now, she is important.
[11:53] Speaker 2: Where do they go get the neighbor for?
[11:54] Speaker 1: I don't know. She says, go get the neighbor and
[11:56] Speaker 1: the doctor. And the police.
[11:58] Speaker 2: But he's dead.
[12:00] Speaker 1: He's dead, yes.
[12:00] Speaker 2: So what's the doctor going to do?
[12:03] Speaker 1: Just pronounce him dead. I don't know.
[12:05] Speaker 2: It's medical examiner.
[12:06] Speaker 1: Right. So the neighbor comes over right after this happens.
[12:12] Speaker 1: It's very important because the neighbor ends up testifying that
[12:15] Speaker 1: when she comes to the scene that she finds Lizzie
[12:20] Speaker 1: like perfectly put together. So like her hair is kept.
[12:24] Speaker 1: She has no blood.
[12:25] Speaker 2: Like. Like, not like, therefore, she couldn't have committed a murder,
[12:29] Speaker 2: but rather she glammed herself up and cleaned herself up
[12:33] Speaker 2: so well, despite there being a murder.
[12:36] Speaker 1: Well, you can interpret it any way you want. I'm
[12:38] Speaker 1: just saying when the neighbor arrives after they find the
[12:40] Speaker 1: father dead on the parlor sofa, Lizzie does not have
[12:44] Speaker 1: any blood on her anywhere. She doesn't have any on
[12:46] Speaker 1: her face, on her hands, on her clothing, and her
[12:48] Speaker 1: hair is tidy.
[12:50] Speaker 2: So she's innocent.
[12:52] Speaker 1: Well, I don't, I don't know.
[12:54] Speaker 2: I don't know. Are you saying she's too clean?
[12:57] Speaker 1: No, I'm not saying anything. I'm just saying the neighbor
[12:59] Speaker 1: testifies to that. When it finally goes to trial, that's
[13:02] Speaker 1: important that the witness says, she also says she has
[13:04] Speaker 1: on a blue dress. She said she has on a
[13:06] Speaker 1: blue dress and that she doesn't notice any blood on
[13:09] Speaker 1: her or blood splatter. So like, just hold that in
[13:12] Speaker 1: your head for right now. Okay. All right. So then
[13:16] Speaker 1: after they find the father dead, they're asking like where
[13:20] Speaker 1: Abby is, the stepmom. And they believe that she, Lizzie
[13:24] Speaker 1: says that she thought that she had gone out for
[13:26] Speaker 1: the day because they received a note that said that
[13:28] Speaker 1: some neighbor was sick. So Lizzie claims that she didn't
[13:31] Speaker 1: think her stepmother was home. She thought that she had
[13:33] Speaker 1: gone out to visit like a sick friend. But then
[13:35] Speaker 1: the neighbor and the maid, Maggie, Bridget, whatever you want
[13:39] Speaker 1: to call her, go upstairs. And this is when they
[13:42] Speaker 1: find the stepmom, Abby, dead in the guest bedroom on
[13:46] Speaker 1: the floor next to the bed. She's actually down.
[13:48] Speaker 2: So they don't even know she's in the home. And
[13:50] Speaker 2: then they find her dead in the home.
[13:52] Speaker 1: They find her dead in the home.
[13:53] Speaker 2: Not even knowing she's in the home.
[13:55] Speaker 1: Right but they find her dead in the home after
[13:57] Speaker 1: they find the father dead but according to what i
[14:02] Speaker 1: read they believe that she was killed first because when
[14:04] Speaker 1: they found her dead around 11 15 a.m or whatever
[14:08] Speaker 1: time this is in the morning that she was cold
[14:12] Speaker 1: and the blood on her was coagulated so they believe
[14:16] Speaker 1: she was killed first they believe she was killed sometime
[14:18] Speaker 1: around 9 30 in the morning And then they believe
[14:21] Speaker 1: that the father, when he came home from being out,
[14:24] Speaker 1: was killed around 1045.
[14:25] Speaker 2: So it's as if she was killed while the father
[14:29] Speaker 2: was out counting his properties. And then he comes home
[14:32] Speaker 2: and takes a nap and is killed. Right. And where
[14:34] Speaker 2: is Bridget this whole time? Because you told me the
[14:37] Speaker 2: stepmother was found on the second floor and Bridget was
[14:39] Speaker 2: on the third floor.
[14:40] Speaker 1: But Bridget didn't go up to the third floor until
[14:42] Speaker 1: after she let him into the house.
[14:45] Speaker 2: Right, which would, in your timeline of events, after the
[14:49] Speaker 2: murder of the stepmother. That's what I'm saying. The murder
[14:52] Speaker 2: of this, the murdering of the stepmother. How did that
[14:55] Speaker 2: happen without Bridget? Knowing or seeing or hearing anything.
[15:00] Speaker 1: Well, that was the question to Lizzie Borden too, because
[15:02] Speaker 1: she claims that she was ironing in the dining room
[15:05] Speaker 1: at that time, which would be like the nine, nine
[15:07] Speaker 1: 30 timeframe, which would mean if it wasn't her, she
[15:10] Speaker 1: would have been able to hear it happen because it
[15:12] Speaker 1: was her, because the guest bedroom is directly above the
[15:15] Speaker 1: dining room. And this house isn't made very well. That's
[15:17] Speaker 1: what I read that it was like kind of the
[15:19] Speaker 1: walls are kind of paper thin that you, you would
[15:21] Speaker 1: assume that if someone was getting bludgeoned to death right
[15:24] Speaker 1: above you.
[15:24] Speaker 2: And I don't know. We assume that in the Idaho
[15:27] Speaker 2: case too, those murders, you always wondered how everyone slept
[15:30] Speaker 2: through everything. Maybe murder is not as loud as we think.
[15:33] Speaker 2: Maybe TV really just exaggerates.
[15:35] Speaker 1: Sensationalized it and made it look like it's like a loud, dramatic,
[15:40] Speaker 1: vicious thing.
[15:41] Speaker 2: I don't know.
[15:41] Speaker 1: I was trying to think like if Abby's in the
[15:44] Speaker 1: guest bedroom and someone comes up behind her, cause she
[15:46] Speaker 1: was bludgeoned to death from her back of her head.
[15:48] Speaker 1: So she's taken by surprise. yeah so maybe she doesn't
[15:52] Speaker 1: make any noise maybe she doesn't scream maybe to the
[15:55] Speaker 1: ground that's it maybe she was hit so hard the
[15:57] Speaker 1: first time how do you hit you hit someone 18
[16:00] Speaker 1: to 19 times in the back of the head no
[16:02] Speaker 1: one hears or sees anything and also according to what
[16:06] Speaker 1: i read about the house you there's no hallways you
[16:08] Speaker 1: have to pass through the bedrooms to get to I
[16:11] Speaker 1: don't know. I don't know.
[16:12] Speaker 2: You had to go from bedroom to bedroom to get
[16:14] Speaker 2: to places.
[16:14] Speaker 1: Yeah, so I don't know if the maid, when she
[16:16] Speaker 1: went to retire upstairs on the third floor to take
[16:18] Speaker 1: a nap because she was tired, she missed the dead body.
[16:21] Speaker 2: Why is Bridget not a suspect?
[16:25] Speaker 1: I don't know.
[16:26] Speaker 2: Maybe she was fed up with being called Maggie.
[16:28] Speaker 1: Maybe she was.
[16:28] Speaker 2: She couldn't take it anymore.
[16:30] Speaker 1: She was mad. All right. Now let's get to a
[16:33] Speaker 1: couple days later. So we get to August 6th of 1892.
[16:38] Speaker 1: So this is when, so Lizzie has a friend. Her
[16:41] Speaker 1: name's Alice Russell. Clearly, they're not friends anymore after this.
[16:44] Speaker 1: But Alice Russell testified. Because she tells the police, she
[16:48] Speaker 1: talks to the police, and she tells them that she
[16:51] Speaker 1: saw Lizzie burning a blue dress in the kitchen a
[16:55] Speaker 1: couple days after the murder.
[16:57] Speaker 2: But the blue dress, as far as we know, was
[16:59] Speaker 2: clean anyway. According to the neighbor. It's not like they
[17:02] Speaker 2: did DNA testing back then.
[17:03] Speaker 1: I know. That's what the neighbor said. The neighbor said
[17:05] Speaker 1: there was no blood on the dress that she had on.
[17:07] Speaker 1: And the maid confirmed that Lizzie had a blue dress on.
[17:11] Speaker 1: And then the friend, Alice Russell, tells the police that
[17:14] Speaker 1: she was at the Borden house because she's friends with
[17:17] Speaker 1: Lizzie and Emma, the two sisters, and that Lizzie was
[17:20] Speaker 1: burning a blue dress in the kitchen. And she claims
[17:23] Speaker 1: that she was burning the dress because it had paint
[17:26] Speaker 1: on it.
[17:27] Speaker 2: Why would you burn it? You would just throw it away.
[17:30] Speaker 1: Because she's trying to get rid of the evidence, I guess.
[17:31] Speaker 2: Well, I know that, but I mean, if it was paint,
[17:34] Speaker 2: why would you burn it?
[17:36] Speaker 1: Okay, let's talk about this, because this is mind-boggling as well.
[17:39] Speaker 1: You have two people in this house bludgeoned to death.
[17:42] Speaker 2: Right. And two people not bludgeoned to death, completely unconscious
[17:46] Speaker 2: and unaware that it happened. Right. Or claiming it.
[17:49] Speaker 1: Claiming they don't know. However, there is no... During the investigation,
[17:53] Speaker 1: when the police investigate... Also, again, we're in the 1890s,
[17:56] Speaker 1: by the way, but When they investigate the house and
[17:58] Speaker 1: go through the house looking for evidence or clues or whatever,
[18:02] Speaker 1: there is no blood found anywhere except for the blood
[18:06] Speaker 1: spot where the stepmother died and then the blood spots
[18:10] Speaker 1: where the dad died.
[18:12] Speaker 2: So there's no trails.
[18:13] Speaker 1: There's no blood trail. There's no splatter on the walls.
[18:17] Speaker 1: There's no footprints with blood.
[18:19] Speaker 2: What about a weapon?
[18:21] Speaker 1: They don't know if they found the weapon. They say ax,
[18:25] Speaker 1: but it's not actually an ax. They believe that she,
[18:28] Speaker 1: they were bludgeoned to death with a hatchet.
[18:30] Speaker 2: Oh, so the nursery rhyme's wrong. Yeah.
[18:32] Speaker 1: Well, it also, yeah, the nursery rhyme's wrong. They found,
[18:35] Speaker 1: the police found the head of a hatchet in the
[18:38] Speaker 1: basement with the handle broken off. So they believe that
[18:42] Speaker 1: that's the possible murder weapon. However, there was no blood
[18:46] Speaker 1: found on the hatchet. But again, we're in the 1890s.
[18:48] Speaker 1: So the only way.
[18:49] Speaker 2: But you make it like the 1890s, they can't see blood.
[18:52] Speaker 1: Well, no, they can't. To the eye, they don't see
[18:54] Speaker 1: any blood. I'm saying they don't have luminol or DNA
[18:57] Speaker 1: testing or.
[18:58] Speaker 2: A way to... They don't have UV lights or anything?
[19:00] Speaker 1: No, they don't have a way to see if there's
[19:03] Speaker 1: blood actually on the hatchet.
[19:05] Speaker 2: Yeah. You're saying if it's wiped clean, even just to
[19:09] Speaker 2: the surface, they're not going to see any blood.
[19:12] Speaker 1: Right. So to the naked eye, they don't see any blood.
[19:14] Speaker 2: So that's the best century to commit murder then.
[19:18] Speaker 1: Definitely the best century.
[19:19] Speaker 2: Yeah. Who invented Luminol?
[19:21] Speaker 1: I don't know, but again, I'm just going to go back.
[19:24] Speaker 1: So I would love to have my own Luminol. I
[19:26] Speaker 1: want to go to the Lizzie Borden house. Has anyone
[19:28] Speaker 1: done that? Has anyone gone back to that house?
[19:30] Speaker 2: That's why I say go to bed and breakfast with
[19:31] Speaker 2: some Luminol and spray it around.
[19:32] Speaker 1: I want to spray it all over that house and see. Apparently,
[19:35] Speaker 1: you can still see the blood stained through the floor
[19:38] Speaker 1: where the dad died. You can go into the cellar
[19:41] Speaker 1: and look up and you can see it.
[19:42] Speaker 2: It's now preserved as the integrity, Yes. The architectural integrity.
[19:46] Speaker 1: It's right there with the house.
[19:47] Speaker 2: Historically protected.
[19:55] Speaker 1: So along with the fact that there's no blood splatter
[19:58] Speaker 1: in this house anywhere, there's no blood trails, there's no
[20:01] Speaker 1: blood footprints, and apparently there's no blood on Lizzie Borden
[20:05] Speaker 1: or the dress she has on. And the police find...
[20:09] Speaker 1: a bucket of bloody clothes in the cellar. But Lizzie
[20:14] Speaker 1: tells them it's because she was menstruating. And so they
[20:18] Speaker 1: just walk away and they're like, okay, fine. That must
[20:20] Speaker 1: be what it is. I feel like during that time period.
[20:22] Speaker 2: They didn't want to talk about it. They were just like, okay. Uncomfortable, uncomfortable. Weird, weird.
[20:26] Speaker 1: Yeah. So I feel like what a defense, like how
[20:29] Speaker 1: you can get away with murdered in the 1890s. You
[20:32] Speaker 1: just say the blood is from menstruation and the police
[20:35] Speaker 1: just are like, okay, fine. We won't look at it
[20:37] Speaker 1: or touch it or have anything to do with it.
[20:39] Speaker 1: So anyway.
[20:41] Speaker 2: What could they do? What could they do? I mean,
[20:44] Speaker 2: if they didn't have the means to really test the
[20:45] Speaker 2: blood in any way, I know DNA, obviously, but even like,
[20:49] Speaker 2: remember back in the day, they could look at hair
[20:51] Speaker 2: strands and carpet and kind of similarities. And they'd be like,
[20:55] Speaker 2: this hair is likely from the, but now it's like
[20:58] Speaker 2: DNA is a little bit more black and white. So
[21:00] Speaker 2: I don't know, back then, could they look at, they
[21:01] Speaker 2: couldn't look at blood.
[21:03] Speaker 1: No, but I feel like they didn't look at it
[21:05] Speaker 1: at all. I mean, why didn't they remove the.
[21:08] Speaker 2: No, they were probably like completely disgusted. Yeah, yeah. Never mind.
[21:12] Speaker 2: All right.
[21:12] Speaker 1: Fine, we won't talk about that anymore. Because I'm saying,
[21:15] Speaker 1: what if it was clothing? Like, what if the blood
[21:18] Speaker 1: was on clothing, not just like on an undergarment or something?
[21:21] Speaker 1: I mean, what if it was a.
[21:22] Speaker 2: Like it was on a man's suit?
[21:24] Speaker 1: Yeah, or if it's a dress.
[21:26] Speaker 2: A blue dress?
[21:26] Speaker 1: A blue dress or a dress that Lizzie owned and
[21:29] Speaker 1: the blood's all over, you know, the front of it.
[21:32] Speaker 1: That doesn't make sense.
[21:33] Speaker 2: Was she known to paint?
[21:35] Speaker 1: I don't think so.
[21:35] Speaker 2: Because that would be a good decoy. You have paint
[21:38] Speaker 2: buckets out and they're like, oh yeah, it was paint.
[21:40] Speaker 2: So I burned my clothes. Yeah. And be like, well,
[21:42] Speaker 2: clearly there's paint buckets here.
[21:44] Speaker 1: Okay. So again, I'm just, I'm bad. This case is
[21:48] Speaker 1: like living rent free in my head. I keep thinking
[21:50] Speaker 1: about it because I'm baffled by the fact that she's
[21:53] Speaker 1: completely clean, that there's no blood trails anywhere, that there's
[21:56] Speaker 1: no blood splatter anywhere. And that there's two people in
[22:00] Speaker 1: the house.
[22:00] Speaker 2: Well, clearly she wiped everything down. Her and Bridget just
[22:03] Speaker 2: wiped everything down.
[22:04] Speaker 1: That would be my guess as well. Yes.
[22:06] Speaker 2: All right.
[22:06] Speaker 1: So let's get on to August 9th through 11th is
[22:09] Speaker 1: when they do. So the police, they do try to,
[22:13] Speaker 1: they talk to the neighbors and things and people are like, oh,
[22:16] Speaker 1: maybe I saw some weird man walking around the night before,
[22:18] Speaker 1: but really nothing comes of it, right? There's no witnesses.
[22:21] Speaker 1: Nobody sees anyone else. So the police hone in on
[22:24] Speaker 1: Lizzie because that's the only logical explanation is it had
[22:28] Speaker 1: to have been her. Why not Bridget? Police determined that
[22:32] Speaker 1: Lizzie would have had motive and opportunity. She was home,
[22:35] Speaker 1: and the motive would have been the fact that she
[22:37] Speaker 1: would have inherited from her dad, and he was very wealthy.
[22:40] Speaker 1: I mean, why does Bridget want him dead? She's not
[22:42] Speaker 1: going to inherit anything.
[22:44] Speaker 2: I don't know.
[22:45] Speaker 1: So we call it an investigation. At this time, it
[22:47] Speaker 1: was called an inquest. It's held to investigate the two deaths.
[22:51] Speaker 2: I like investigation better. Yes.
[22:53] Speaker 1: At this time, it's an inquest, like an inquisition, inquest.
[22:58] Speaker 1: Lizzie gives testimony, but some of her answers appear inconsistent.
[23:03] Speaker 1: Her family doctor claims that the inconsistency in her answers,
[23:08] Speaker 1: she contradicts herself a lot, could be the result of
[23:10] Speaker 1: the morphine he prescribed for her after her parents' deaths.
[23:15] Speaker 2: Morphine? To mourn their deaths?
[23:17] Speaker 1: I guess because maybe she was, you know.
[23:20] Speaker 2: Yeah, but morphine doesn't seem like....
[23:23] Speaker 1: Um, later, and we talked, I talked about this with
[23:26] Speaker 1: you last night. Remember I said that she gives all
[23:28] Speaker 1: these inconsistent statements during this inquest where the police, I
[23:31] Speaker 1: believe they questioned her for four hours. She makes all
[23:34] Speaker 1: these contradictory statements. Then the judge went before she goes
[23:38] Speaker 1: to trial, the judge decides that none of her statements
[23:42] Speaker 1: that were made during this inquest are allowed into the
[23:44] Speaker 1: trial and the judge it's a three panel. Well, they
[23:49] Speaker 1: weren't called Miranda rights at the time. Right. But they,
[23:51] Speaker 1: the judges decide that she's not that in fourth amendment,
[23:56] Speaker 1: that none of the testimony that she gave during this
[23:58] Speaker 1: inquest is allowed to be presented at trial. because it
[24:02] Speaker 1: was a violation of her Fifth Amendment rights, because she
[24:04] Speaker 1: was not given, she didn't have an attorney present when
[24:06] Speaker 1: she gave any of these statements. And she was not
[24:10] Speaker 1: given notice that she could not talk.
[24:13] Speaker 2: Remain silent.
[24:14] Speaker 1: That she could remain silent. We know today those are
[24:16] Speaker 1: called Miranda rights. Right. And we looked it up. Miranda
[24:19] Speaker 1: rights became.
[24:21] Speaker 2: In 66.
[24:22] Speaker 1: In 1966.
[24:23] Speaker 2: Right.
[24:23] Speaker 1: It was a case. What was his name? Ernesto Miranda.
[24:26] Speaker 2: Yeah.
[24:26] Speaker 1: But I was talking about his first name. His name
[24:28] Speaker 1: was Ernesto Miranda.
[24:29] Speaker 2: It was 1966.
[24:29] Speaker 1: He's in Arizona.
[24:32] Speaker 2: Yeah.
[24:32] Speaker 1: And that's when it became law, federal law.
[24:36] Speaker 2: Well, yeah, the case set the precedent. Right. The rights
[24:40] Speaker 2: need to be provided at a certain time.
[24:41] Speaker 1: That when you are taken into custody that you have
[24:45] Speaker 1: to be given your Miranda rights, which is the right
[24:46] Speaker 1: to remain silent and all the other rights that were
[24:48] Speaker 1: in that. So anyway, so none of these contradictory statements
[24:51] Speaker 1: that she gives during this inquest are allowed into her trial.
[24:55] Speaker 2: Do we know what she said in that interview? That
[24:58] Speaker 2: would be good.
[24:58] Speaker 1: I couldn't really... get information about what was actually said.
[25:02] Speaker 1: I guess maybe it's because it wasn't allowed at trial,
[25:05] Speaker 1: so there's no public record of.
[25:06] Speaker 2: What it was. Right, but that would be a good
[25:07] Speaker 2: day if we had that.
[25:09] Speaker 1: I do know statements about her whereabouts were contradictory as
[25:12] Speaker 1: far as she was saying she was ironing in the
[25:16] Speaker 1: dining room at one point, but then she also claimed
[25:18] Speaker 1: that she was in the barn eating pears.
[25:21] Speaker 2: You know what it took to iron back then?
[25:23] Speaker 1: Yeah, you have to heat that iron.
[25:24] Speaker 2: Yeah, you had to put coal in it. Yeah. You
[25:27] Speaker 2: heat up coal and you put it in the iron
[25:28] Speaker 2: and you iron it.
[25:29] Speaker 1: That sounds like a lot of work. I don't even
[25:31] Speaker 1: like to iron now.
[25:32] Speaker 2: No, you won't even do it now. No.
[25:35] Speaker 1: On August 11th of 1892, Lizzie Borden is arrested and
[25:38] Speaker 1: charged in connection with the murders of her father and stepmother.
[25:42] Speaker 1: She pleads not guilty and remains in jail in Towton, Massachusetts,
[25:46] Speaker 1: while awaiting further legal proceedings. Originally, a grand jury did
[25:52] Speaker 1: not indict her originally because they didn't think there was
[25:55] Speaker 1: enough evidence. However, when her friend, remember I told you
[25:58] Speaker 1: about the friend that came forward and said that she
[26:00] Speaker 1: saw her burning the dress?
[26:01] Speaker 2: Yeah.
[26:02] Speaker 1: That evidence, then the grand jury was reconvened again, and
[26:06] Speaker 1: then they indicted her after hearing about the evidence of
[26:08] Speaker 1: burning the dress.
[26:09] Speaker 2: Oh, that was enough to tip the scale on.
[26:12] Speaker 1: Between August 25th and September 1st of 1892, a preliminary
[26:16] Speaker 1: hearing is conducted and the case is bound over to
[26:18] Speaker 1: the grand jury. On December 2nd of 1892, a grand
[26:22] Speaker 1: jury indicts Lizzie for the murders of Andrew and Abby Borden.
[26:25] Speaker 1: The case attracts national attention as newspapers closely follow every development. Wait,
[26:32] Speaker 1: I just want to share this with you because I
[26:33] Speaker 1: thought this was funny. So all these newspapers, right, like
[26:38] Speaker 1: everybody's following this story. But the only way you can
[26:40] Speaker 1: get information is you have to wait for the– it's
[26:43] Speaker 1: not like now.
[26:44] Speaker 2: Hot off the press.
[26:44] Speaker 1: Hot off the press. All right. So we get to
[26:47] Speaker 1: the trial. The trial takes place. Oh, first of all,
[26:50] Speaker 1: Lizzie has a very good defense team. So obviously she
[26:52] Speaker 1: has access to her dad's money because she, one of
[26:55] Speaker 1: her defense attorneys is the former governor of Massachusetts. So
[26:58] Speaker 1: she has two defense attorneys.
[27:00] Speaker 2: Okay.
[27:01] Speaker 1: And then there's the prosecutors. She has a very good
[27:04] Speaker 1: defense team.
[27:05] Speaker 2: You know, it might be ignorant of me, but it
[27:07] Speaker 2: seems like if you told me about a murder in
[27:09] Speaker 2: the 1800s, it would seem like it would just be
[27:11] Speaker 2: like result in a hanging at the end of the week. Yeah.
[27:14] Speaker 2: Like it wouldn't be so sophisticated with this inquest. Yeah.
[27:17] Speaker 2: The former governor being the attorney, her having a team,
[27:21] Speaker 2: you know, throwing out her interrogation for a violation, indictments. Right.
[27:29] Speaker 2: I don't see all that.
[27:30] Speaker 1: There's also one more thing that wasn't allowed in at trial,
[27:33] Speaker 1: which I thought was interesting as well. So according to
[27:37] Speaker 1: another witness, his name was Eli, I believe. The day
[27:41] Speaker 1: before the murders, Lizzie, he claims that Lizzie went to
[27:45] Speaker 1: his shop and tried to buy, it's called prussic acid, P-R-U-S-S-I-C,
[27:50] Speaker 1: prussic acid. And it's a deadly acid. If you ingest it,
[27:55] Speaker 1: you die. He claims that she came in trying to
[27:59] Speaker 1: buy it the day before the murders and that she
[28:02] Speaker 1: told him she needed it because she was going to
[28:04] Speaker 1: put an edge on a seal cape. So she had
[28:08] Speaker 1: a cape on. cape. This is 1890s. Again, she had
[28:11] Speaker 1: a cape made from seal fur. Oh, like a seal
[28:16] Speaker 1: like animal like a seal, and that she needed this acid,
[28:20] Speaker 1: this deadly acid to put like some type of edging
[28:23] Speaker 1: on this cape, but he refused to sell it to
[28:25] Speaker 1: her because you can't buy it, you have to have
[28:27] Speaker 1: a prescription from a doctor or something to be able
[28:29] Speaker 1: to buy it. So he came forward and told the
[28:33] Speaker 1: police this information. However, again, this information was not allowed
[28:37] Speaker 1: at trial.
[28:39] Speaker 2: Yeah. And they didn't die that way anyway.
[28:42] Speaker 1: No, no, but it goes to motive. I mean, if
[28:44] Speaker 1: you're a prosecutor, don't you want to get that information in?
[28:46] Speaker 1: I mean, clearly she, if, if it's true and he's
[28:50] Speaker 1: credible and you put him on the witness stand, it
[28:52] Speaker 1: looks like she was first thinking of killing them by
[28:56] Speaker 1: poisoning and then she couldn't get the poison. She's so
[28:59] Speaker 1: she's like, I guess I'm just going to have to
[29:01] Speaker 1: hack them to death because I couldn't get the poison.
[29:04] Speaker 1: All right, so the trial takes place in New Bedford, Massachusetts.
[29:07] Speaker 1: This is June 5th through the 20th, and this is 1893.
[29:12] Speaker 1: Lizzie had many supporters, those who were involved in charities
[29:15] Speaker 1: and church groups with her. So Lizzie was very involved
[29:18] Speaker 1: in her church and also very involved in charities. A
[29:22] Speaker 1: lot of people in her church community supported her and
[29:26] Speaker 1: claimed that she would not receive a fair trial because
[29:28] Speaker 1: women weren't allowed to serve on juries at the time.
[29:31] Speaker 1: So the jury during her trial was 12 men.
[29:35] Speaker 2: That's interesting. Yeah.
[29:36] Speaker 1: And women in Massachusetts were not allowed to serve on
[29:38] Speaker 1: a jury until 1951. I believe. It took until 51.
[29:40] Speaker 2: 51. Yeah. So she has a jury of 12 men.
[29:46] Speaker 1: So also when the prosecution starts their case in chief,
[29:50] Speaker 1: the prosecutor walks out and he throws a blue frock,
[29:54] Speaker 1: like a blue dress onto the prosecution table. And the
[29:58] Speaker 1: skulls of her father and her stepmother are in it
[30:03] Speaker 1: and come and roll out onto the prosecution table. It
[30:06] Speaker 1: was their actual skulls.
[30:09] Speaker 2: You couldn't do that today.
[30:10] Speaker 1: No, you couldn't do that today. But he did it.
[30:12] Speaker 1: And allegedly or apparently, according to like the newspaper articles
[30:16] Speaker 1: at the time, because obviously it's not filmed, but they're
[30:19] Speaker 1: just writing and they're drawing pictures, right? There's a lot
[30:21] Speaker 1: of pictures from the trial. There's an artist, you know, sketching.
[30:25] Speaker 1: Lizzie fainted. when that happened and, you know, had to
[30:28] Speaker 1: have a fan and everybody's fanning her. Can you imagine
[30:31] Speaker 1: how dramatic that is in this courtroom in like the 1890s?
[30:33] Speaker 1: I mean, she's sitting in a chair in the middle
[30:36] Speaker 1: of the courtroom. She has a big hat on, right?
[30:39] Speaker 2: Well, how do you know she does?
[30:40] Speaker 1: Because I've seen courtroom drawings of it. She has a
[30:42] Speaker 1: big hat on.
[30:43] Speaker 2: Judge didn't make her take the hat off?
[30:44] Speaker 1: No, she has her hat on and she's sitting there,
[30:46] Speaker 1: you know, she has a fan and then the prosecutor
[30:49] Speaker 1: walks out with a blue dress and he throws it
[30:51] Speaker 1: onto the prosecution table.
[30:52] Speaker 2: Why a blue dress?
[30:53] Speaker 1: Because she allegedly was wearing a blue dress when all
[30:56] Speaker 1: of this happened. So I'm sure you found something similar,
[30:58] Speaker 1: but it couldn't have been the actual dress she was wearing.
[31:00] Speaker 1: Cause apparently she burned the dress two days later. So
[31:02] Speaker 1: I didn't really understand the significance of the dress. Yes,
[31:06] Speaker 1: but it was the actual skulls, which had huge gaps,
[31:11] Speaker 1: like holes in them from where they were bludgeoned to death.
[31:14] Speaker 1: And these skulls roll out on the table. Obviously that
[31:18] Speaker 1: was for effect.
[31:20] Speaker 2: Did it have an impact?
[31:23] Speaker 1: Well, I don't know. I mean, we know that she's
[31:25] Speaker 1: acquitted at the end. So, I mean, I don't know
[31:28] Speaker 1: how impactful it was. However, it actually ends up working
[31:44] Speaker 1: out for the defense because they ask her about the
[31:46] Speaker 1: relations inside the home because they're trying to establish a motive.
[31:49] Speaker 1: They want it to look like Lizzie didn't get along
[31:51] Speaker 1: with her dad or Lizzie didn't like her stepmom. They
[31:54] Speaker 1: want the jury to see that she had animosity with them. However,
[31:58] Speaker 1: her sister testifies as well. And also the maid, Bridget,
[32:03] Speaker 1: testifies that... That there was never any issues between them,
[32:07] Speaker 1: that they got along, that everybody was cordial, that Lizzie
[32:10] Speaker 1: really got along with her dad. There was another witness
[32:13] Speaker 1: that testified that Lizzie had said something to the effect of, like,
[32:18] Speaker 1: she didn't really like her stepmom or something like that.
[32:20] Speaker 2: That's not enough to really.
[32:22] Speaker 1: I know, but they couldn't really establish.
[32:23] Speaker 2: So then what would be another possible motive? The money?
[32:26] Speaker 1: The money. I think the money, just the fact that
[32:29] Speaker 1: they lived kind of a meager lifestyle and she wanted more.
[32:34] Speaker 1: After 15 days of testimony, the jury deliberated for approximately
[32:37] Speaker 1: 90 minutes. Actually, and you know, one more thing, the
[32:40] Speaker 1: defense attorney, this is a great defense, by the way,
[32:43] Speaker 1: the defense attorney, basically, I think in his like closing arguments,
[32:46] Speaker 1: he's basically like, you know, first of all, like a
[32:48] Speaker 1: woman couldn't do this. That was really, I think.
[32:51] Speaker 2: Is that a valid defense?
[32:52] Speaker 1: No, this is what I really feel like the jury
[32:54] Speaker 1: was deciding. It wasn't, it didn't really, it wasn't based
[32:57] Speaker 1: on evidence or, you know, she had motive.
[32:59] Speaker 2: It was based on genders.
[33:01] Speaker 1: It was, it was based on whether they believe that
[33:03] Speaker 1: a church going 32 year old woman who's, you know,
[33:07] Speaker 1: never been in trouble and was just like a nice
[33:10] Speaker 1: lady of a high, you know, high breeding, you know,
[33:13] Speaker 1: she comes from.
[33:13] Speaker 2: A wealthy family. Of a venerable man.
[33:15] Speaker 1: Of a venerable man could commit such atrocious murders. That's
[33:20] Speaker 1: really what the jury was deciding.
[33:22] Speaker 2: Yeah.
[33:23] Speaker 1: So the defense at the end, I love this as
[33:25] Speaker 1: a defense. I feel like this is amazing. The defense
[33:29] Speaker 1: says it couldn't have possibly been her, right? He said
[33:34] Speaker 1: it was either the devil or a maniac. Oh.
[33:40] Speaker 2: So he was trying to deflect and be like, we
[33:43] Speaker 2: should be inquesting the devil? Right. It was either.
[33:46] Speaker 1: It couldn't have been Lizzie because she's a nice church-going
[33:49] Speaker 1: lady of high breeding and high moral standard.
[33:52] Speaker 2: Right.
[33:53] Speaker 1: It must have been.
[33:54] Speaker 2: The devil.
[33:55] Speaker 1: The devil or a maniac.
[33:58] Speaker 2: Well, yeah. If it's not the devil, then it's clearly
[34:00] Speaker 2: a maniac. Lizzie did it, didn't she?
[34:03] Speaker 1: I believe she absolutely did it. The jury acquits Lizzie
[34:07] Speaker 1: of both murders due to a lack of physical evidence
[34:10] Speaker 1: and a clear murder weapon. The jury, this is 12 men, remember,
[34:15] Speaker 1: did not believe that a woman could commit such a
[34:18] Speaker 1: gruesome murder.
[34:19] Speaker 2: You know, it's interesting that they wouldn't allow women on
[34:21] Speaker 2: the jury, right? Right. Which is obviously stupid, but because
[34:23] Speaker 2: they don't think they're equal or whatever.
[34:25] Speaker 1: They're chattel.
[34:27] Speaker 2: Chattel. Personal property. So... But yet they also don't think
[34:33] Speaker 2: that she could commit murder. It's like women aren't sophisticated
[34:35] Speaker 2: enough to be on the jury, and they're not sophisticated
[34:37] Speaker 2: enough to commit murder. Right. It's just like, it's on
[34:40] Speaker 2: one end, they're very judgmental about women, right? They prejudge them.
[34:46] Speaker 2: They have all these preconceived notions about women. And one
[34:49] Speaker 2: of them's like, they're good people. They didn't kill. So
[34:52] Speaker 2: this is kind of funny. You'd think they'd be like,
[34:54] Speaker 2: hang them, right? A little bit more aggressive, like she
[34:57] Speaker 2: killed a venerable man of our society. Yeah.
[35:00] Speaker 1: Yeah, well, here's my thoughts on that. If the maid
[35:03] Speaker 1: were the one that was being tried, I think a
[35:06] Speaker 1: jury would be okay convicting her. But I think the
[35:10] Speaker 1: fact that she was well-bred.
[35:12] Speaker 2: Who her father was.
[35:13] Speaker 1: And she came from a highly educated, wealthy family. There's
[35:19] Speaker 1: no possible way that a woman of that stature, status,
[35:23] Speaker 1: could have done something like that.
[35:24] Speaker 2: Wow.
[35:26] Speaker 1: Which we know.
[35:26] Speaker 2: But Bridget could. We both could.
[35:28] Speaker 1: But we know that that's not true.
[35:30] Speaker 2: And the devil and maniacs could.
[35:31] Speaker 1: All right. So Lizzie's acquitted. And then no one else
[35:34] Speaker 1: is ever charged with the murders of Andrew and Abby Borden.
[35:37] Speaker 1: So then she's acquitted. She's free to go. Now she's
[35:42] Speaker 1: acquitted and she inherits her father's estate.
[35:44] Speaker 2: And her sister did, I assume, right?
[35:46] Speaker 1: Her sister.
[35:47] Speaker 2: Her older sister. She had a 41-year-old sister.
[35:49] Speaker 1: So she and her sister move because they inherit the money.
[35:53] Speaker 1: But this is interesting. Let's talk about this for a second.
[35:55] Speaker 1: We talked about this a little bit yesterday.
[35:57] Speaker 2: Okay.
[35:58] Speaker 1: It's interesting, and I don't know if it was done
[36:01] Speaker 1: on purpose, but we know that Abby was killed first.
[36:04] Speaker 1: And that has to do with inheritance, possibly.
[36:07] Speaker 2: At least the reporting shows that she was believed to
[36:10] Speaker 2: have died first.
[36:11] Speaker 1: Well, if he was found warm and oozing blood.
[36:14] Speaker 2: Yeah, that's what I'm saying. If that's accurate, then yeah,
[36:17] Speaker 2: she died first.
[36:17] Speaker 1: And she was found with blood coagulated and cold to
[36:21] Speaker 1: the touch, then she was killed first. So if Abby
[36:24] Speaker 1: was killed first, as far as inheritance... That means that
[36:28] Speaker 1: then he's still alive and therefore his daughters would inherit.
[36:33] Speaker 2: Meaning his wife inherits nothing.
[36:36] Speaker 1: Right.
[36:36] Speaker 2: And he retains it all and then it gets disseminated.
[36:40] Speaker 1: And then he dies second.
[36:42] Speaker 2: Yeah.
[36:42] Speaker 1: Therefore he still has his fortune and then it goes
[36:45] Speaker 1: to his daughters. However, if he were killed first, the
[36:49] Speaker 1: inheritance could go to his wife, which then would go
[36:53] Speaker 1: to his wife and her family.
[36:55] Speaker 2: Let's say he died intestate without a will. Then he dies.
[37:00] Speaker 2: Generally speaking, I know it could go to the kids
[37:02] Speaker 2: and all. But then if the wife were to inherit
[37:04] Speaker 2: it all, right, then she dies. And then whatever her will,
[37:10] Speaker 2: or if she didn't have a will, however it would
[37:12] Speaker 2: be distributed, would be based on her owning the property,
[37:15] Speaker 2: which could clearly exclude.
[37:17] Speaker 1: His daughters.
[37:18] Speaker 2: The Borden girls.
[37:18] Speaker 1: So I just wonder if her death first... was on
[37:22] Speaker 1: purpose or if it just happened that way.
[37:24] Speaker 2: You tell me she would be sophisticated enough to go
[37:27] Speaker 2: kill and then think, okay, let's see, the blood will
[37:30] Speaker 2: be cold to the touch and I'll go kill my
[37:32] Speaker 2: dad and keep him warm.
[37:34] Speaker 1: I don't know. That's too much. I'm just saying that's
[37:35] Speaker 1: very interesting. It's just an interesting thought to me.
[37:38] Speaker 2: No, my thought is she was too stupid. She didn't
[37:41] Speaker 2: think about it one way or another. She just wanted
[37:43] Speaker 2: him dead so she can inherit the money.
[37:44] Speaker 1: Right. All right, so we know after Lizzie's acquitted that
[37:48] Speaker 1: she and her sister Emma inherit an estimated $ 300, 000 following
[37:53] Speaker 1: the murders, which in today's standards would equate to about
[37:56] Speaker 1: $ 11 million today. Because their father died in test date, oh,
[38:00] Speaker 1: he did not have a will.
[38:01] Speaker 2: Okay.
[38:02] Speaker 1: His entire fortune passed completely to his two surviving daughters.
[38:06] Speaker 1: All right, so now that they have access to the money, right?
[38:09] Speaker 1: Because obviously before they had no access to any of
[38:11] Speaker 1: his money.
[38:11] Speaker 2: So what do they do? They open up a bed
[38:13] Speaker 2: and breakfast?
[38:14] Speaker 1: No, they move to the big house in the big
[38:17] Speaker 1: fancy part of town.
[38:18] Speaker 2: They start living large.
[38:19] Speaker 1: Yes, and they buy this big estate.
[38:22] Speaker 2: Flying private.
[38:23] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[38:23] Speaker 2: They're doing it all. Yeah.
[38:32] Speaker 1: Lizzie and Emma purchase a large home in the wealthier
[38:34] Speaker 1: part of Fall River, and Lizzie names the property Maplecroft.
[38:39] Speaker 1: Many Fall River residents continue to believe Lizzie was responsible
[38:43] Speaker 1: despite her acquittal, and Lizzie experiences social isolation and remains
[38:47] Speaker 1: the subject of public speculation.
[38:49] Speaker 2: So she lived out her whole life?
[38:51] Speaker 1: In the same town. She didn't even move. She just
[38:53] Speaker 1: moved to like a.
[38:54] Speaker 2: Oh, she just moved to the rich neighborhood?
[38:56] Speaker 1: She just moved to the wealthy, the uber wealthy neighborhood
[38:58] Speaker 1: and bought a big house and named it Maplecroft.
[39:00] Speaker 2: You know, this is a case where the criminal... got
[39:07] Speaker 2: away with it and got all the loot and like
[39:09] Speaker 2: live in large. Yeah. Didn't even have to leave the neighborhood.
[39:13] Speaker 1: I mean, she was ostracized. I did read that like
[39:15] Speaker 1: her church community didn't welcome her back. And you know,
[39:19] Speaker 1: she didn't.
[39:19] Speaker 2: Clearly didn't the jury talk to her church community and say, look,
[39:22] Speaker 2: she couldn't have committed a crime. She goes to your church.
[39:23] Speaker 1: Yeah. And I don't know, the defense probably didn't tell
[39:25] Speaker 1: them that it was either the devil or a maniac either.
[39:28] Speaker 1: They weren't aware of that.
[39:29] Speaker 2: Um, Good thing they didn't have her church peers on
[39:32] Speaker 2: the jury.
[39:33] Speaker 1: In 1897, so this is after she's acquitted, Lizzie is
[39:36] Speaker 1: accused of shoplifting in Providence, Rhode Island, though the matter
[39:39] Speaker 1: is settled quietly. Probably because she has a lot of money.
[39:41] Speaker 2: So she's... And they don't want to be murdered. It's okay.
[39:44] Speaker 1: It's okay.
[39:45] Speaker 2: Take whatever you want. Right.
[39:47] Speaker 1: In 1905, Emma moves out of Maplecroft after an apparent
[39:51] Speaker 1: disagreement with Lizzie. We don't know what happened, but the
[39:53] Speaker 1: two sisters, who are very close and live together in
[39:56] Speaker 1: this big estate that they purchased after the murders, they
[39:59] Speaker 1: have some kind of falling out. We don't know why,
[40:01] Speaker 1: but they never speak to each other again.
[40:02] Speaker 2: It's never going to have a falling out with them. murder.
[40:05] Speaker 1: That's why she moved out. She can't stay in the house.
[40:07] Speaker 1: She's going to get bludgeoned to death.
[40:08] Speaker 2: She's like, well, I can live with you, but we
[40:10] Speaker 2: can't have any heavy objects in the house and no weapons.
[40:13] Speaker 1: So Emma moves out and the sisters remain estranged for
[40:17] Speaker 1: the rest of their lives. I also read that Lizzie,
[40:21] Speaker 1: she becomes part of like, she goes to a lot
[40:25] Speaker 1: of plays and things like that and then becomes really
[40:27] Speaker 1: good friends with a woman that's like an actress that's
[40:30] Speaker 1: really well known in some kind of theater troupe. And
[40:32] Speaker 1: she hosts this theater group and I don't know. There's
[40:35] Speaker 1: speculation that maybe they had some kind of relationship going on.
[40:38] Speaker 1: I don't know. I mean, obviously those aren't things that were,
[40:41] Speaker 1: you know, talked about or written. If she did have
[40:44] Speaker 1: some kind of lesbian affair with this actress, or I
[40:48] Speaker 1: think in the Monsters version, I think that they depicted
[40:52] Speaker 1: as Lizzie and the maid have some type of relationship.
[40:57] Speaker 2: Oh, and now they're just trying to spruce it up.
[40:59] Speaker 2: Sounds like. Right. Is that based on any reporting?
[41:01] Speaker 1: No, because I'm saying, even if that were true, no
[41:04] Speaker 1: one's writing about it or writing a diary about it
[41:08] Speaker 1: or anything. There's no written proof or anything out there.
[41:13] Speaker 1: June 1st of 1927. When was your dad born?
[41:18] Speaker 2: No, he was born in the 40s.
[41:19] Speaker 1: Lizzie Borden dies of pneumonia in Fall River at age 66.
[41:24] Speaker 1: Then her sister, Emma, who moved out, dies nine days later.
[41:27] Speaker 1: And both women are buried in the Borden family plot
[41:30] Speaker 1: near Andrew and Abby.
[41:31] Speaker 2: They die within 10 days of each other?
[41:32] Speaker 1: Nine days. Her sister dies nine days later.
[41:34] Speaker 2: I want to watch Now Monsters to compare your journalistic... Integrity.
[41:42] Speaker 1: Yeah, well, we'll watch it now.
[41:43] Speaker 2: Against Netflix.
[41:44] Speaker 1: Yeah, I just wanted to get out. I wanted to
[41:46] Speaker 1: get the research and I wanted to get the facts
[41:48] Speaker 1: out there so that we have an understanding. Okay, now
[41:50] Speaker 1: that you know all of this, what do you think
[41:51] Speaker 1: happened in that house? What is your interpretation?
[41:53] Speaker 2: Lizzie killed her stepmom and dad.
[41:56] Speaker 1: And do you think the maid was in on it?
[41:58] Speaker 1: Do you think that she knew about it? Do you
[42:00] Speaker 1: think she hoped?
[42:01] Speaker 2: No, I don't know. That's one that I just don't know.
[42:03] Speaker 2: I'd be making something up.
[42:04] Speaker 1: I really don't know. How do you think she bludgeoned
[42:07] Speaker 1: them both to death without getting any blood on herself?
[42:10] Speaker 2: Well, no, I think she went and washed up. You do?
[42:12] Speaker 1: What about the dress? You think she took it off somehow?
[42:14] Speaker 2: Yeah, she probably swapped out a dress. I don't know.
[42:16] Speaker 2: I don't know. I'm not... I don't think that's too far-fetched.
[42:19] Speaker 2: She just cleaned up.
[42:21] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[42:21] Speaker 2: And like you said earlier, they don't use a microscope
[42:24] Speaker 2: to look at anything. They don't have special lighting. They
[42:26] Speaker 2: don't really... they would take a glance. If they didn't
[42:33] Speaker 2: see any blood, that was the end of it. Now
[42:35] Speaker 2: it's like, Hey, we don't see any, but there may
[42:38] Speaker 2: be a lot of blood, a lot of DNA, some fingerprints.
[42:41] Speaker 2: So they don't touch anything. And then they, they, you know,
[42:43] Speaker 2: examine it. So back then it was okay. So they
[42:46] Speaker 2: didn't see any blood, like at first glance of her dress.
[42:49] Speaker 2: And that's the end of it. Now they're going to say,
[42:51] Speaker 2: take off the dress anyway. And they go through it
[42:53] Speaker 2: with a fine tooth comb.
[42:55] Speaker 1: Right. You know, some people speculate that maybe she murdered
[42:58] Speaker 1: her stepmom and dad naked. So that she didn't have
[43:02] Speaker 1: any blood splatter. And then she could quickly wash up
[43:06] Speaker 1: and then throw a dress on.
[43:07] Speaker 2: Maybe. We'll never know.
[43:08] Speaker 1: We'll never know. And also, I think the maid helped.
[43:12] Speaker 1: I think she knew.
[43:14] Speaker 2: She cleaned up.
[43:15] Speaker 1: I think she helped clean up.
[43:16] Speaker 2: Yeah.
[43:16] Speaker 1: I think it was such a short period of time.
[43:18] Speaker 1: It's about an hour and a half.
[43:20] Speaker 2: And you think the maid did it maybe just out
[43:22] Speaker 2: of self-survival? Just to go along with it and just
[43:26] Speaker 2: not upset her?
[43:27] Speaker 1: Maybe she was an immigrant. You know, she.
[43:30] Speaker 1: I don't know. I mean, this is a wealthy family.
[43:32] Speaker 1: I think she just probably knew about it, helped in
[43:36] Speaker 1: some way, and then.
[43:37] Speaker 2: Like it was better just to go along with it
[43:39] Speaker 2: and be on their side.
[43:40] Speaker 1: Yeah, and then left and moved and went and lived.
[43:42] Speaker 1: I think she went and lived, I forget. It's like
[43:43] Speaker 1: Wyoming or something.
[43:44] Speaker 2: She puts down the Bordens as a reference. Yeah. She's like,
[43:47] Speaker 2: I'm very loyal to the families I serve.
[43:50] Speaker 1: All right. So let's talk about the Netflix series, the
[43:54] Speaker 1: monster series.
[43:55] Speaker 2: Is this like an hour episode or how is the
[43:57] Speaker 2: monster series?
[43:58] Speaker 1: No, there's eight episodes.
[43:59] Speaker 2: It's a dramatization across eight episodes?
[44:02] Speaker 1: Eight episodes.
[44:03] Speaker 2: Dang.
[44:03] Speaker 1: I know.
[44:04] Speaker 2: What are they talking about for eight episodes?
[44:07] Speaker 1: I think they really, I haven't watched it yet. I'm
[44:08] Speaker 1: going to watch it, but let's talk about, this is
[44:10] Speaker 1: some of the, just some of the distinctions I found
[44:12] Speaker 1: between the two.
[44:13] Speaker 2: Okay.
[44:14] Speaker 1: All right, so here's some details that the series did
[44:18] Speaker 1: get correct. This is factually correct. Andrew and Abby were murdered.
[44:21] Speaker 2: They got their names correct.
[44:22] Speaker 1: They got their names right.
[44:22] Speaker 2: The city's correct.
[44:23] Speaker 1: They were murdered inside their Fall River home on August 4th, 1892.
[44:27] Speaker 1: Emma Borden was away, and Bridget Sullivan, the maid, was
[44:30] Speaker 1: inside the home. John Morse, this is the uncle that
[44:33] Speaker 1: was staying in the guest room, was questioned but had
[44:36] Speaker 1: a strong alibi. I know people saw him out and about.
[44:39] Speaker 1: The wealthy Borden family experienced financial and personal tension, so
[44:43] Speaker 1: we do know that. Lizzie gave inconsistent answers and burned
[44:47] Speaker 1: a dress after the murders. We do know that. Lizzie
[44:50] Speaker 1: was arrested, tried, and acquitted, and Lizzie and Emma later
[44:53] Speaker 1: moved into a larger home called Maplecroft. Here are some
[44:57] Speaker 1: details in the series that were changed or completely invented, right?
[45:03] Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
[45:05] Speaker 1: The series portrays Lizzie as guilty, although the real case
[45:09] Speaker 1: remains unsolved. There's no evidence to prove Lizzie and Bridget
[45:13] Speaker 1: were lovers or committed the murders together. I guess they
[45:17] Speaker 1: do show them as having some type of sexual relationship.
[45:21] Speaker 2: That's just Netflix making up crap.
[45:23] Speaker 1: Andrew's sexual relationship with Bridget and her pregnancy are fictional. Oh,
[45:29] Speaker 1: so they make the dad have a relationship with the
[45:31] Speaker 1: maid and then she's pregnant. See, that's all made up. Yeah,
[45:35] Speaker 1: this is, um, Abby's physical abuse and extreme cruelty are exaggerated. Andrew,
[45:41] Speaker 1: not Abby reportedly killed Lizzie's pigeons. I do know that
[45:45] Speaker 1: there was something about Lizzie having pigeons and, um, I
[45:49] Speaker 1: think her, um, dad had killed them for some reason.
[45:53] Speaker 1: I don't know. That was some form of tension between them.
[45:57] Speaker 1: There is no proof Lizzie poisoned the family before the murders. Oh, yeah,
[46:00] Speaker 1: I do know that they did talk about and all
[46:03] Speaker 1: this research that I did that the family that day
[46:05] Speaker 1: of the murders was suffering from some kind of stomach issue.
[46:08] Speaker 1: Like they all had some stomach issues. And they claimed
[46:12] Speaker 1: Lizzie claimed to a neighbor that it was because they
[46:14] Speaker 1: had some bad bread. But then also you can make
[46:17] Speaker 1: the inference that maybe she had tried to poison them
[46:19] Speaker 1: in some way. Yeah, I don't know. But there's no
[46:22] Speaker 1: proof of that. Bertha Manchester was killed after the Borden
[46:26] Speaker 1: murders while Lizzie was in jail. So I guess they're
[46:29] Speaker 1: making some illusion that she could have been responsible for
[46:31] Speaker 1: some other type of death. Lizzie met actress Nance O'Neill
[46:35] Speaker 1: years after her trial. This is the, I was talking
[46:37] Speaker 1: about how she was very into watching plays and being
[46:41] Speaker 1: involved in theater troops. And she became very close to
[46:44] Speaker 1: this famous actress at the time named Nance O'Neill. And
[46:47] Speaker 1: there is no documented connection between Lizzie and Eileen Wuornos.
[46:51] Speaker 2: All right.
[46:51] Speaker 1: So that is the case, the story. It's actually, I
[46:54] Speaker 1: guess it's a cold case of Lizzie Borden. And when
[46:56] Speaker 1: I started researching it, I was, I'm going to tell you,
[46:58] Speaker 1: I was so invested in this case and I read
[47:00] Speaker 1: so much about it. I really thought I was going
[47:02] Speaker 1: to solve it. I was like, I'm going to solve
[47:05] Speaker 1: this case.
[47:06] Speaker 2: You're going to find the evidence?
[47:07] Speaker 1: I don't know. I just thought there's got to be
[47:08] Speaker 1: something out there.
[47:09] Speaker 2: So what'd you do? What'd you find?
[47:10] Speaker 1: I mean, I just, she, there's no other person that
[47:13] Speaker 1: could have done it. There's nobody else in the house
[47:15] Speaker 1: and the doors are locked. There's no one seen. Like,
[47:18] Speaker 1: first of all, there's about an hour and a half
[47:20] Speaker 1: between the murders. So if it was someone else, someone
[47:23] Speaker 1: else had to hang out in the house. They had
[47:25] Speaker 1: to kill the stepmom upstairs and then hang out in
[47:28] Speaker 1: the house for another hour, hour and a half, and
[47:30] Speaker 1: then kill the dad when he came home.
[47:33] Speaker 2: Well, that's when they could have been cleaning up.
[47:34] Speaker 1: I mean, that could have been the devil or the maniac.
[47:36] Speaker 1: I guess they could have been hiding in the house
[47:38] Speaker 1: for that long and then committed both murders. At the
[47:41] Speaker 1: end of the day, I'm sure it was Lizzie Borden
[47:43] Speaker 1: that did it with the help of the maid. I
[47:45] Speaker 1: just don't know how they got rid of the blood evidence. Maybe.
[47:48] Speaker 2: They wiped it clean with a rag and then threw
[47:50] Speaker 2: it in a bucket.
[47:51] Speaker 1: And then said they were menstruating. Yes.
[47:53] Speaker 2: Yeah.
[47:54] Speaker 1: All right.
[47:54] Speaker 2: Well.
[47:55] Speaker 1: I'm interested to see what everyone out there listening, what
[47:57] Speaker 1: are your thoughts?
[47:58] Speaker 2: Has anyone been to the bed and breakfast?
[47:59] Speaker 1: I want to know that because I want to go now.
[48:01] Speaker 2: Like, is it advertised as a bed and breakfast where
[48:04] Speaker 2: Lizzie Borden committed murder?
[48:05] Speaker 1: Yeah, it says, there's a sign out front that says
[48:07] Speaker 1: Lizzie Borden bed and breakfast. And then there's a museum
[48:10] Speaker 1: part of it where you can see photographs of the
[48:12] Speaker 1: crime scene and newspaper articles.
[48:15] Speaker 2: Oh.
[48:15] Speaker 1: And you can go to the room where she was murdered.
[48:18] Speaker 1: And I believe the couch where the dad was murdered
[48:20] Speaker 1: is still there. And you can sleep there. I don't
[48:22] Speaker 1: want to sleep there. I told you that. I don't
[48:24] Speaker 1: want to stay there. I just want to visit. All right. Anyway,
[48:28] Speaker 1: if anyone has been there, let me know. You can
[48:30] Speaker 1: find me on Instagram. I love to get feedback from
[48:32] Speaker 1: you guys. Also, if you've watched the Monsters version, what
[48:35] Speaker 1: did you think about it? Shane and I are going
[48:38] Speaker 1: to watch it. We'll see. We'll let you know. I
[48:40] Speaker 1: guess I have to watch it now. I'm going to
[48:42] Speaker 1: watch it. Eight episodes. We're going to have to do it.
[48:45] Speaker 2: All right.
[48:45] Speaker 1: Thank you guys for listening to Legally Brunette. We appreciate it.
[48:48] Speaker 1: As always, please follow Legally Brunette wherever you listen to podcasts.
[48:52] Speaker 1: And if you have any recommendations of cases you would
[48:54] Speaker 1: like us to talk about, please find me on Instagram
[48:56] Speaker 1: and send me a message. I love to hear from you.

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