# Cate Campbell - Even Olympians Have Depression

An episode of [The Imperfects](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1476501557), 29 Jun 2025, 1 h 17 min.

Audio: https://enrichment.soundstack.com/4vjqq8/episode.flightcast.com/hjh0e9bsuy1dpqnzyuf6cfbx.mp3

💌 Subscribe to our newsletter, the Vulnerabilitea-mail - www.theimperfects.com.au - this week, featuring a reflection from none other than Cate Campbell. By the time she was 16, Cate Campbell had figured out her social currency: achievement, in the form of gold medals, no less. Four time Olympian and world record holder Cate joins us in the Vulnerabilitea House to answer the question ‘How and when have you been dishonest with yourself?’ From telling herself she was ‘fine’ to having a breakdown over a Milo, Cate recounts the intense period of loneliness she experienced during Covid, and the depression she ‘didn’t deserve’ to feel. This episode emphasises the critical importance of connection for our mental health, and Cate so beautifully articulates the impact of finding love at first sight (friend addition), and navigating a changing relationship with her sister Bronte. Coming of age in a world where perfection is praised and your failure makes headlines, Cate is so generous in sharing how she had learn to ask for help and to value her mental health like she would her physical. Cate, you are simply the best. To watch this full video on YouTube, follow this link: http://bit.ly/40ecuJc 🫖Other Imperfects episodes mentioned in this episode • Bronte Campbell - Comparison, The Thief of Joy - https://bit.ly/44h52iW 🩷To host your own Vulnerabilitea House, purchase the Vulnerabilitea House Cards here - https://bit.ly/3Cx4tGP 🩵To purchase our journal (or your novel) My Imperfect Life, click here - https://bit.ly/3Cx4tGP 🩵To join our patreon community, A Little More Imperfects, follow this link - patreon.com/theimperfects 🩷 AND you can subscribe to A Little More Imperfects through Apple Podcasts too, here apple.co/theimperfects The Imperfects is not a licensed mental health service and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, treatment or assessment. The advice given in this episode is general in nature, but if you’re struggling, please see a healthcare professional, or call lifeline on 13 11 14.

## Transcript

[0:01] There was a profound feeling that I didn't deserve to be diagnosed with depression because I had such a good life.
[0:13] Yeah, yeah.
[0:15] I was literally living out the dream of nine-year-old Kate.
[0:20] The Imperfects invites you into a very safe place, a place where we share without judgement,
[0:32] and drink heaps of vulnerability.
[0:39] Grab yourself a cup.
[0:41] This is the Vulnerability House.
[0:51] Well, I feel like I did in 1992 when NBL basketball and Nigel Purchase came to do a clinic at my primary school.
[1:00] I am so excited.
[1:02] I was really wondering where that was going.
[1:05] And just so you know, I felt great when he came.
[1:07] Yeah.
[1:07] It was so exciting.
[1:08] I think he's misunderstood which guest we have.
[1:11] This is not Nigel.
[1:14] No.
[1:14] No.
[1:16] So we have Kate Campbell here, which is just, yeah, I'm getting a bit excited.
[1:20] Swimming sensation.
[1:21] Swimming sensation, yeah.
[1:22] Stop it.
[1:23] Stop it.
[1:25] That's what you are, though.
[1:25] You are a swimming sensation.
[1:26] And it's something about, like, Olympians, I just lose my mind a little bit.
[1:32] Yeah.
[1:33] I've tried very hard to play it cool for the last 30 minutes.
[1:36] You've done a great job.
[1:38] Yeah, haven't noticed.
[1:40] And look, I have to say that I'm fangirling just as hard, so I hope that I've managed to keep a lid on that as well.
[1:46] No, well, yeah, definitely have.
[1:47] But I think just so you know, if it was a fangirl competition, I win.
[1:55] You get gold.
[1:56] I get gold.
[1:56] Does that mean I have to take the silver?
[1:58] Oh, no, Hugh, this is not a good start.
[2:01] I don't know if you want to get into this.
[2:04] So we all know who Kate Campbell is, but I am interested to know how well you know yourself.
[2:11] So I thought maybe for your bio, I'm just going to say some numbers and you tell me if you know what they mean.
[2:16] Okay.
[2:16] Not like in terms of like what is the number nine, but what stat does it correspond to?
[2:21] Okay.
[2:22] Yeah, I think she got that, but yeah.
[2:25] Okay, seven.
[2:28] I'm from a family of seven?
[2:30] No.
[2:30] No.
[2:31] I mean, you are, yes.
[2:36] You're actually a family of 20.
[2:39] And have we got some surprises for you today?
[2:42] All right, Ancestry.com, here we go.
[2:46] Seven.
[2:46] So, yes, seven.
[2:48] But is there anything else that might stand out?
[2:52] No.
[2:52] Days of the week.
[2:53] Yes.
[2:53] Well, you hold seven world records.
[2:57] Cool.
[2:57] Yep, there you go.
[2:58] Seven world records.
[3:00] Sorry, you broke seven world records.
[3:01] Yeah.
[3:02] Whether or not they're still standing, I don't actually know, but you have broken seven world records.
[3:05] Good to know.
[3:06] That's good.
[3:07] That's pretty cool.
[3:07] I'm learning things about myself today as well.
[3:10] Yes.
[3:11] I can't fact check you.
[3:12] Wow.
[3:14] Okay, four.
[3:17] Olympic gold medals.
[3:19] I was going to say no, but yes, that's not what I was thinking.
[3:21] But yes, that's a better one.
[3:23] Yes.
[3:23] Four Olympic gold medals.
[3:24] Four Olympics?
[3:25] Yes, correct.
[3:27] That, if we could just stop there, I'd be happy to discuss that for two hours.
[3:31] That is unbelievable.
[3:32] That is unbelievable.
[3:32] Thank you.
[3:33] That's 16 years.
[3:35] Yeah.
[3:36] Well, I had just turned 16 when I raced in 2008.
[3:39] I'm still at school, which is wild when I look back and think about it.
[3:44] Yeah, even thinking about it now, yeah, it's unbelievable.
[3:47] You got a bronze medal there?
[3:49] Yeah, I did.
[3:50] Yeah, I won two bronze medals.
[3:51] Did you bring it to school?
[3:53] Yes, I did actually.
[3:56] The school assembly and I got paraded down and I had to wear my opening ceremony uniform, which looked a little bit like a flight attendant.
[4:02] Like it was our formal uniform.
[4:04] Some of the Olympic uniforms are quite interesting.
[4:07] And that one you looked a little bit like a flight attendant.
[4:09] Yeah.
[4:10] What was the response from other students?
[4:12] Because I imagine some, there might have been a bit of jealousy or envy.
[4:16] Like what was the, is there any tall poppy going on?
[4:18] So it was really interesting.
[4:20] I am like very shy and heavily introverted and was not in the cool group at school.
[4:28] Like I would kind of look at people who are cool and just think, how, how do they do it?
[4:33] Like, how do they get there?
[4:34] I had a, I had a handful of really close, beautiful friends, which is lovely.
[4:37] How do they get there?
[4:38] Literally, I'm just like, how do you do it?
[4:41] I'll take you through it afterwards.
[4:42] Okay, great.
[4:43] Thank you.
[4:43] I really appreciate that.
[4:45] And so I went from being relatively unknown, almost invisible, to suddenly like...
[4:53] Everyone knew who I was in the school because it's a pretty big deal when someone from your school goes to the Olympic Games.
[5:02] And I found the attention like so overwhelming when I got back.
[5:07] I just couldn't.
[5:09] I now know you have to.
[5:10] For me, you have to go to the Olympics to be one of the cool kids.
[5:13] So you were then one of the cool kids?
[5:14] Well, I was recognised, but I never achieved cool status.
[5:18] Okay.
[5:19] But I imagine...
[5:19] It just eluded me.
[5:20] But there must have been a few kids at the school who suddenly wanted to be your friend.
[5:26] Yes.
[5:27] Yes.
[5:27] And I was spoken to a lot more, like, people who were well out of my league suddenly deigned to come and, like, say hello to me at the water bubbler and things like that.
[5:36] Yeah.
[5:37] So I actually found the experience very overwhelming.
[5:39] Did that make you, like, look at people, just humans, differently?
[5:42] Like, it's kind of an interesting thing to experience.
[5:45] I think it was the first time that I realised or that I began to see real value or social currency in achievement.
[5:55] And I was like, okay, I don't really understand very well how to interact with people, but if I achieve something, they'll reach out to me.
[6:04] That seems healthy.
[6:05] Yes.
[6:05] Yes.
[6:06] It's a very healthy thing to start thinking at 16.
[6:09] Yeah.
[6:10] That's certainly worked out for me too.
[6:13] Next number, 19 million.
[6:17] Strokes that I've swum.
[6:18] Very good.
[6:19] Shit.
[6:20] Whoa.
[6:21] Yeah, these are old shoulders.
[6:22] Is that both arms?
[6:23] Yeah.
[6:25] What?
[6:25] Yeah, she used.
[6:26] Yes.
[6:27] No, but are you counting?
[6:29] Is it one?
[6:29] Oh, two.
[6:30] Yeah.
[6:31] Yeah.
[6:32] And that's just in like my professional swimming career.
[6:34] That doesn't count like learning to swim and things like that.
[6:38] This is a random swimming question.
[6:40] I did laps for a little while.
[6:42] Oh.
[6:43] How many?
[6:43] That's your first mistake.
[6:44] We never call them laps.
[6:46] Oh, what are you, lengths?
[6:47] No.
[6:48] What?
[6:48] You have to count.
[6:49] If you want to like elevate yourself.
[6:51] I do, I do.
[6:52] Okay.
[6:53] You count in metres, like I did 100 metres or 200 metres.
[6:56] Ah, so 10 laps is kind of amateur hour.
[6:58] Very amateur.
[6:59] Really?
[7:00] But please tell me about your laps.
[7:02] That's okay, Kate.
[7:04] That's so cute.
[7:05] I actually just realised I've double booked.
[7:06] I should go.
[7:09] No, like how many breaths do you take?
[7:14] Like on like what stroke do you take a breath?
[7:16] Was it like every three or every four strokes or every eight stroke?
[7:20] Like what?
[7:21] When you race, it's different.
[7:22] So in a 50-metre race, I wouldn't breathe.
[7:25] You wouldn't breathe at all?
[7:27] No.
[7:27] For the whole 50?
[7:28] For the whole 50.
[7:30] You should try it sometime.
[7:31] No way.
[7:33] That's amazing.
[7:34] Yeah, so don't breathe in a 50, but then in 100, you need to breathe every four strokes, and then when you train, every two or every three.
[7:43] I breathe in metres.
[7:44] Do you breathe in metres?
[7:44] Yeah, yeah, some of us breathe in metres.
[7:50] What's next?
[7:52] Eight.
[7:54] Olympic medals.
[7:55] Correct.
[7:55] Oh, thank God.
[7:56] That's my first one I've got right.
[7:57] Wow.
[7:58] Eight.
[8:00] Five.
[8:01] Well, kind of.
[8:03] Children?
[8:04] Elders of five children?
[8:05] Yeah, yes.
[8:06] I do not have five children.
[8:08] That's what I'm saying.
[8:09] Big thing we miss.
[8:10] Just pop them out in between.
[8:14] Yes, that's right.
[8:15] You are the eldest of five.
[8:18] Two more.
[8:19] $35,000.
[8:22] Kilometres swum.
[8:24] Yes.
[8:24] Yeah.
[8:25] I did some rough calculations.
[8:26] Whoa.
[8:26] It's about three quarters of the way around the world.
[8:29] And no, I do not feel like I need to finish the lap of the world.
[8:35] Tempting though, isn't it?
[8:36] Absolutely not.
[8:37] Absolutely not.
[8:39] Whoa.
[8:39] Our last round, 15.
[8:43] The age you were one year before you went to the Olympics?
[8:46] Yes.
[8:46] I have no idea what that would be.
[8:48] No, I just, there was nothing.
[8:49] I just said it.
[8:50] I thought maybe you'd give us something really just...
[8:55] Profound.
[8:56] No, sorry.
[8:57] No worries.
[8:58] That's good.
[8:58] I thought I'd try.
[8:59] Interesting.
[8:59] Fascinating, Hugh.
[9:02] Nothing profound came from that one.
[9:03] Sorry.
[9:04] Okay.
[9:05] Well, this is so exciting.
[9:07] So you are here for the Vulnerability House.
[9:10] Yes.
[9:10] Before we get into it, can I ask, so we had Bronte on the podcast a little while ago.
[9:16] Before we get into the cards, and I don't know, we don't know what card you're going to pull and what the answer is going to be, but how did it feel listening to your sister talk the way that she did on the podcast?
[9:25] Yes.
[9:26] Well, firstly, that's just one of the most beautiful episodes.
[9:31] And whenever I hear Bronte talk, I just feel like this immense sense of pride.
[9:36] And it made me feel really emotional, actually.
[9:40] It was...
[9:41] It's something that...
[9:43] we have struggled with and grappled with this relationship between the two of us being sisters and being competitors and, uh, being constantly compared to each other because we have chosen to do the same thing.
[9:57] And yet we are incredibly different people.
[9:59] And so navigating your individual self within a world, which wants to put you in a neat little box and a package and the Campbell sisters,
[10:09] And yeah, she's incredible.
[10:11] So articulate, so funny, so smart.
[10:14] And all of those things just shone through.
[10:16] And then, yeah, it was just, it was really lovely.
[10:20] I felt like I learned things from there as well.
[10:23] It's something that we probably haven't gotten to explore as much of yet because we were still both actively competing.
[10:33] And so talking about,
[10:35] the difficulties of that relationship was something that couldn't fully be explored until someone stepped away.
[10:43] And so now I've stepped away.
[10:44] We've actually been able to have more open, more honest conversations.
[10:48] And it's changed the nature of our relationship again in a really beautiful way.
[10:53] So, yeah.
[10:55] It kind of reminds me that may or may not be like this, but it's kind of like when you're in a long-term romantic relationship with someone and then you break up.
[11:03] If you both have the intention of maybe becoming friends one day, it's maybe hard to do that until both people have, at least one person has found their next partner.
[11:13] Mm-hmm.
[11:14] And so then they maybe feel like, oh, I can now, I'm not as invested in that as I was.
[11:19] And maybe you stepping away, you're like, oh, I actually don't feel the investment in the sport or in the competition.
[11:25] Yeah.
[11:26] Yeah, and it's that competitiveness which kind of has been this umbrella that we have had to cultivate our relationship under for our whole lives.
[11:36] And now we get to step outside and, you know, into the sunshine and the rain and everything else that comes with it.
[11:43] But we don't have to negotiate that.
[11:46] that element of the relationship, which is actually like a really big relief.
[11:50] Yeah.
[11:51] Especially, you know, we are highly competitive people.
[11:53] We are competing in a sport where, you know, our win-lose margins a hundredths of a second, the blink of a human eye is six one hundredths of a second.
[12:02] So, you know, we're working to such fine margins and you're constantly looking for your own edge.
[12:09] And so then to have to consider someone else in that space is not something that other competitors have to do, you know.
[12:18] But in saying that, we got to achieve our Olympic dreams together.
[12:22] which is something that we dreamt about since we were seven and nine years old.
[12:25] And we have probably one of the most unique relationships and we've gotten to experience the highs and lows of elite sport.
[12:33] And so while it's been incredibly challenging, it's been incredibly rewarding as well.
[12:39] Yeah.
[12:41] What a complex situation to find yourself in.
[12:43] Like swimming, an event like that, when you speak about the fine margins, it can only really encourage perfectionism.
[12:51] I feel like it's in like every part of my life I will be perfect to make sure I can swim as fast as I possibly can.
[12:59] But then also to be navigating a relationship with one of the most important people in the world who's trying to do the same thing.
[13:06] It would be very, very difficult to go that journey without there being friction.
[13:13] In 16 years, my personal best for the 50 metres freestyle improved by three-tenths of a second.
[13:20] That is literally...
[13:23] that length of time.
[13:25] And so you're having to stay up in this realm of like super high performance where like every little decision and everything you do is like this little calculation in your brain.
[13:38] And then you obviously have to weigh that against
[13:41] taking into account someone else's feelings, being happy for them, being upset for them, working against like that, that natural urge of like jealousy or resentment that comes up when you're getting beaten all the time.
[13:56] And yeah, it's, it's, it's been challenging, but I, I,
[14:00] I think that we have both grown so much from it.
[14:02] I think that it shaped us into the swimmers we were definitely, but I really believe that it shaped us into the people who we are and we're able to navigate tricky relationships and have difficult conversations or give grace to people or give space to people much more than if we didn't have to face that on a day to day basis.
[14:22] So you're here for the vulnerability house.
[14:23] I feel like I've got a thousand more questions about performance, but maybe we can do that off the air.
[14:28] So the cards in front of you.
[14:29] So if you'd like to pick the top three cards and you could maybe read out the top three cards and then you can choose one that sort of works best where you feel feels right for you today.
[14:39] And if they don't feel right for you, we can keep going in the card deck.
[14:42] There aren't really any rules.
[14:43] We just, it's a game we made up.
[14:45] Great.
[14:46] Excellent.
[14:47] Okay, here we go.
[14:48] Just taking the cards now.
[14:51] And if you get a community chest, just read it out as well.
[14:53] Okay, great.
[14:53] Do I get to pass go and collect $200?
[14:55] Yep.
[14:56] Great.
[14:56] Cash.
[14:57] Awesome.
[14:58] You won't get it.
[14:59] It's not the cards aren't in there, but yeah.
[15:02] Okay, one.
[15:03] What secret about yourself do you wish wasn't a secret anymore?
[15:11] Oof.
[15:11] How and when have you been dishonest with yourself?
[15:15] Hmm.
[15:17] And number three, how do you think people might talk about you behind your back?
[15:24] That's the bogey card that...
[15:28] Oh, they're all really great.
[15:31] I think I'm going to go with the middle.
[15:33] How and when have you been dishonest with yourself?
[15:36] Great.
[15:38] What this brings up for me in particular is like a lie or a dishonesty that I told myself repeatedly over a long period of time, and that is you're fine.
[15:52] Oh, you're fine.
[15:54] And how long did you tell yourself that?
[15:57] Like how long do you remember saying to yourself, I'm fine, but when you reflect deep down, you know you weren't?
[16:02] You know that you're not.
[16:03] And I guess that that's why this resonated with me as well, is that sometimes like...
[16:09] being dishonest with yourself once is okay.
[16:12] Like you're tired, you're stressed, but I'm fine.
[16:16] I can make it through the day.
[16:17] That one little bit of dishonesty is like, okay, and you can make it through the day.
[16:22] But when it compounds on top of each other and when you keep repeating that same lie to yourself,
[16:30] then I think it becomes a real issue because you're not acknowledging what's actually going on.
[16:35] So in 2020, I was really struggling.
[16:42] The Olympics had been cancelled, postponed because of COVID.
[16:47] Everyone went into lockdown.
[16:48] I had been living in Sydney.
[16:50] I was originally from Brisbane, moved to Sydney, was by myself.
[16:56] was deeply and profoundly lonely and then was still trying to come back and train for these Olympics that were going to possibly be happening in 2021.
[17:07] But when you're in the midst of a lockdown and you don't have access to a swimming pool and you're having to do weights in your backyard with, you know, 10-litre bottles of water that you've got from Coles because those were the only weights you could find, it was a difficult time and...
[17:24] I kept on telling myself that you're fine, you're fine.
[17:28] When you say you're fine, do you mean you're basically like being dishonest in the sense that it wasn't fine?
[17:35] As in deep down you know that it's not fine.
[17:37] As in you're like plastering over the top of a crack.
[17:41] Trying to trick yourself.
[17:43] And it keeps appearing and you just like whack it on again and it'll look nice for like a little bit.
[17:48] And then as soon as there's a little gust of wind, that crack appears again.
[17:52] And so I was diagnosed with depression in 2020.
[17:57] Really?
[17:59] Which was something that I was like so deeply embarrassed and ashamed of that I didn't tell, you know, a soul.
[18:13] And I think that we get very good in the sporting world of
[18:20] training our bodies and honing our bodies.
[18:22] You know, I've spoken about like a very, very fine win-lose margins, the fact that you're constantly looking for that little, tiny, incremental way to improve and...
[18:35] Part of that is kind of ignoring the discomfort that you're in, like your physical discomfort, but also your psychological discomfort to a point.
[18:44] Like when my alarm goes off at 4.30 in the morning, I'm not like, woohoo, this is great.
[18:49] I really feel like getting out of bed.
[18:51] Yeah.
[18:52] I mean, that sounds like a mad person.
[18:57] Like you don't feel like doing it.
[18:58] So you get quite used to over time like discounting and discrediting like how you're feeling and you just get on and you do the thing.
[19:08] And also that your sense of identity is your ability to push through that.
[19:12] Yes, yes.
[19:13] And, you know, everyone talks about, oh, you know, like you must have such a, you have to be strong mentally.
[19:19] Yes.
[19:20] And in the last 10 metres of a race, it's the person who's strongest mentally who gets to the wall.
[19:24] I think that's absolute bullshit.
[19:27] I think that at some point, like, it doesn't matter how much I'm screaming at myself to get my hand on the wall and to push, your body just reaches a critical point.
[19:37] And it's just like, no, I'm going to shut down.
[19:39] We've done everything.
[19:40] We're flooded with lactic acid.
[19:42] Like my systems are overloaded.
[19:44] Yeah.
[19:46] And so I didn't recognize the warning signs.
[19:51] Before it got to a point.
[19:52] And the turning point for me was it was something so minor that triggered like such a major meltdown that I had to stop and be like, oh, something's wrong here.
[20:05] And it was the power in my house tripped.
[20:10] I was trying to make like a cup of hot chocolate before I went to bed and I went to turn on the kettle and like all the lights went out.
[20:19] I was like.
[20:20] It's fine.
[20:21] Let's take a big breath.
[20:23] Go back outside.
[20:24] Went back outside, flipped the switch and lights all came back on.
[20:27] I was like, okay, let's go inside.
[20:28] Just need a cup of hot chocolate.
[20:30] Went back in, turned on the kettle again.
[20:32] Boom.
[20:33] Lights went out.
[20:35] And I lost it.
[20:38] Like properly, like uncontrollable sobbing, like the sobs that come from like somewhere just deep in your gut and you're making sounds and you just think, where did that come from and who's making that?
[20:54] Because that's not something that I do.
[20:56] Yeah.
[20:57] And you were by yourself.
[20:58] I was by myself.
[20:59] Yeah, I was living by myself in Sydney, away from friends and family.
[21:04] I'd split up from a relationship, you know, a couple of months earlier.
[21:08] So very, very vulnerable in this crazy world where who knew what was going to happen at any point?
[21:15] Which part of COVID was this?
[21:17] This would have been in about June.
[21:19] Okay, 2020.
[21:20] June, July of 2020.
[21:21] So things were like kind of normal but kind of not.
[21:25] Still scary.
[21:26] Still scary and still very isolating.
[21:28] Like it was still hard to connect with people.
[21:32] And the borders were shut between Queensland and Sydney so I couldn't go back and visit friends and family.
[21:38] Olympics were postponed already at this point.
[21:39] Olympics had been postponed.
[21:40] Yeah.
[21:42] And we did have a new date in July of 2021 to work towards.
[21:51] And I just remember like after it passed, I just sort of lay there and was like, something's really not right.
[22:00] And I went online and I booked in to see a psychologist.
[22:04] Well, that's a great thing to do.
[22:06] Well, I was just like, this scares me.
[22:10] It's not normal.
[22:13] But there's nothing wrong.
[22:15] I just need strategies to make sure I stop crying.
[22:18] Yeah, I just need a fix.
[22:19] Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[22:20] The training plan for not crying.
[22:22] Yeah, yeah.
[22:22] I was like, let's think about this.
[22:25] You know, I do a heap of physio exercises to make sure that all my body works really well.
[22:30] And so I just need some exercises that I can do to make sure that I stop crying.
[22:36] Because what were the thoughts, other than the depressive thoughts and the sadness and the overwhelm, I guess, like what was the, I guess, inner voice saying to you?
[22:47] Like what were you...
[22:48] Mm.
[22:50] So it's interesting, like if I look back, I had probably been quite unwell for, you know, a few months before this episode really switched me on to the fact that, oh, something here is really deeply and profoundly wrong.
[23:07] And all the thoughts were around.
[23:10] I actually went back and had a look at some of the journals that I'd written.
[23:15] After I started seeing the psychologist, she, like, gave me a very diligent.
[23:20] I'm a very diligent patient.
[23:22] So for physios and psychs, I'm great.
[23:24] That is not a surprise.
[23:26] You give me something to do and I will absolutely do it.
[23:28] So I went down and I was having a look and there was worthless, useless.
[23:37] I'm embarrassed.
[23:38] I'm ashamed.
[23:40] There was a profound feeling that I didn't deserve to be diagnosed with depression.
[23:49] Mm-hmm.
[23:50] Because I had such a good life.
[23:52] Yeah.
[23:53] Yeah.
[23:53] Do you know what I mean?
[23:54] Oh, of course.
[23:54] Yeah.
[23:54] Definitely.
[23:55] Yeah.
[23:56] Yeah.
[23:56] And there was that I couldn't reconcile the fact with how terrible I was feeling with the fact that I was literally living out the dream of nine-year-old Kate.
[24:09] Mm-hmm.
[24:10] Right.
[24:11] I was objectively successful.
[24:14] I, you know, wasn't in dire financial straits.
[24:18] I had friends and family.
[24:20] I was doing the thing that I loved to do most.
[24:25] And I didn't feel like I was deserving of the title of depression.
[24:31] And so I think that that's why it took me so long to go and see someone
[24:37] and seek help because I always thought that this, this would happen to other people, but it wouldn't happen to me.
[24:42] Like, I have a great life.
[24:44] Why would this be a part of my life?
[24:48] Is there in such a, because I imagine a lot of the people that you're talking to regularly might be, I might be wrong, but would be, I guess, your team that you work with, but then also other swimmers and then probably Bronte.
[25:01] But in like such a competitive environment, is...
[25:07] Is it seen as like a weakness to talk about that you're not at 100%?
[25:12] Like, are you holding back any of that talk with other people because you don't want to be seen to be like, I don't know, less than 100%?
[25:21] Oh, yeah, I didn't tell anyone.
[25:25] So I went in, booked in to see the psychologist.
[25:29] At this point, no one knew that I was struggling, that I was going home every night and having these awful thoughts, that they were just completely clouding my brain.
[25:38] And do you mind, sorry, to jump in, maybe just to rephrase what I asked before, but can I ask why you weren't telling other people?
[25:47] I think that...
[25:49] I didn't want to acknowledge it, but yes, there is a stigma around admitting, I don't want to use the word weakness, but maybe like a fragility around your mental health in a way that isn't when it comes to our physical health.
[26:07] Like we talk about like how we are physically all the time, particularly as athletes.
[26:13] You know, we are so tuned into our body.
[26:16] It is discussed really openly.
[26:19] We work with physios.
[26:20] We work with strength and conditioning coaches.
[26:22] You know, my coach for 20 years was super tuned into what I was feeling and looking physically.
[26:31] And when something isn't working physically, like you learn very quickly the difference between when you're in pain and when you're injured as an athlete.
[26:41] Wow.
[26:42] And so I knew that from a physical standpoint, but I didn't know that from a mental standpoint.
[26:48] I didn't know the difference between being in pain or discomfort and being unwell.
[26:54] Oh, fascinating.
[26:56] Yeah, because growing up,
[26:59] like even pre-swimming, I mean, you probably started swimming pretty young, but growing up like under 10 even, was your family dynamic one in which you were talking openly about like how everyone was feeling?
[27:14] Was that a thing that you spoke about?
[27:18] Not really.
[27:18] I have a beautiful family and beautiful parents and I feel like the older I get, the more I appreciate them and their bravery and above all stoicism.
[27:28] So I grew up in a very stoic family.
[27:31] We moved to Australia in 2001 when I was nine years old.
[27:35] Like I said, I'm the eldest of five children.
[27:37] From?
[27:37] From Malawi.
[27:38] From Malawi.
[27:39] Malawi.
[27:40] It's a small African country.
[27:42] If you've heard of it, that's where Madonna adopts her children from.
[27:44] Oh, okay.
[27:46] They also have a very good netball team as well.
[27:48] Yes, it does.
[27:48] Yes.
[27:49] And they had that great celebration where they rolled around on the court.
[27:52] Yes.
[27:52] Yeah.
[27:52] Yeah.
[27:53] So, and I look back at that time, my parents, I think my dad was, I don't know, like 36 or something.
[28:01] So only like four years older than I am now, which is wild.
[28:06] And they relocated their whole family across the globe with four children.
[28:13] Mum was seven months pregnant and just arrived in this new country with a phone number of a friend of a friend.
[28:19] No job, no house, no car, nothing.
[28:22] And my brother, who's fourth, has profound cerebral palsy and my parents are his full-time carers.
[28:29] So the idea of struggle has been very familiar to me my whole life, but it has always been like we get on and we move on and we keep going.
[28:40] And I'm so grateful for those lessons because it has allowed me to take difficulties into my stride.
[28:50] But...
[28:51] I don't think that we talked about how difficult it could be sometimes or what it felt like.
[28:59] You know, what did it feel like for my parents to...
[29:02] move in their mid-30s, halfway around the world, you're changing cultures, you're leaving your support systems, your friends, you know, all of that and start again.
[29:11] It's like a huge thing to wrap my head around.
[29:14] And they just did it and they never complained and they just got on with it.
[29:19] And so that was sort of the environment that I had growing up, which probably led to the feelings of like, I don't deserve to feel like this.
[29:28] You know, look how easy my life is, especially when, you know, I grew up in Africa and I have, you know, quite strong memories of what it is like to exist in a third world country and to see the daily poverty and the atrocities that happen there.
[29:44] And then being in a family which navigates profound disability and the care that is required there.
[29:51] So I was always very, very aware of like how incredibly privileged I was.
[29:56] And so it felt like,
[29:58] Why am I feeling like this when you have so much else going for you?
[30:02] And it probably just stopped me getting to the warning signs earlier.
[30:09] When you use the words, the big words you dropped before, worthless, useless, it's kind of been, you've sort of said it there about all the,
[30:21] the guilt you had about how great your life was from the outside and for anyone looking from the outside, it looks pretty great too.
[30:27] They're big words.
[30:29] In relation to what did you feel worthless and useless?
[30:34] It's interesting because I went back and had a look at those journals and there was a line that said, there is nothing about myself that I like.
[30:42] Wow.
[30:43] Gosh.
[30:44] And it's interesting, like looking back now, you know, I feel very well now.
[30:53] And I can't even really put myself back in that headspace of when I wrote those words.
[31:01] Like you can't remember what that was like?
[31:03] Yeah, like it feels like it was a different person and it feels like it belonged to a different version of myself.
[31:13] And that's probably, you know, our body's protective mechanisms coming down and being like, no, I'm not going to let you go back.
[31:20] And so I actually, I can't answer the question like in relation to what was driving those feelings because they feel so disparate from the person I am now looking back with a healthy brain.
[31:34] But...
[31:37] you know, it was just pages and pages, like every night it was like an interaction and the thoughts that I had at that interaction.
[31:44] And some of the interactions would be at the pool and I'd be training and just for the whole training session, I'd just be swimming and just hearing, you know, you're worthless, you're slow, you're not working hard enough, you don't deserve to feel like this.
[31:58] come on you can do it pull yourself up what's wrong with you like and and that would just go around for two hours yeah and then i'd like come down write it and uh and try and like siphon it off
[32:09] Was there ever, and without wanting to get too, I feel like sometimes I ask questions, I'm not a psychologist, but was there ever like a, because they're all internal thoughts and that's an internal voice that you're talking to yourself, but was that ever coming from anyone externally?
[32:27] Like is that, you've never had anyone like put that pressure on you or?
[32:32] No, no.
[32:33] It's one of the beautiful things that my family gave both my sister and I when we said we wanted to go to the Olympics.
[32:41] They were like, great, this is your dream and we're going to stand back and we're going to support you.
[32:46] But it's all you.
[32:47] You drive it.
[32:48] You get yourself up in the morning.
[32:50] We'll drive you to training.
[32:51] But if you don't get up, make yourself breakfast and get mum out of bed, mum isn't going to drive you to training.
[32:56] She's going to sleep in and be like that.
[32:58] The opposite of a stage mum.
[33:00] Yes, yes.
[33:02] And, you know, to the point where when I was in high school, I got offered a scholarship to go to a private school on the proviso that I would swim for the school.
[33:11] And my parents were like, well...
[33:14] we like that opportunity for you, but we don't want you to feel like you have to keep swimming and we won't be able to afford the school fees.
[33:20] So we don't want you to go to the school and decide that you don't want to keep swimming.
[33:25] And then we have to move you.
[33:27] And that's destabilizing.
[33:28] So it was it was very, very much.
[33:30] It was always my dream and always something that I wanted to drive towards.
[33:35] And it was, I think.
[33:37] One of the most interesting things that I learned from this psychologist, Megan, she's one of the most beautiful human beings.
[33:45] She said when I was talking to her about these thoughts that I was having over and over about like, you're not good enough, you're worthless or you need to do this better, you need to keep pushing, you need to push through, you have to be stronger, you're being weak.
[33:59] She was like, strength and weaknesses are two sides of the same coin.
[34:04] And these negative thoughts that you are having, they probably, when applied in a more healthy context, would have driven you to be better, to fix the little mistakes, to like always want to try and be better, to finish something and be like, okay, that's great.
[34:22] What can I improve on?
[34:25] And once I had lent too far into it,
[34:28] they became a weakness.
[34:30] And so she was like, these things that you're holding onto and the fact that you're feeling this terrible about yourself and you're not able to cut yourself a break, uh, is actually one of the reasons why you've managed to be so good for so long.
[34:45] Like see that as a strength.
[34:46] So try and flip it over and stop berating yourself, uh, for these thoughts.
[34:52] And it's been really interesting.
[34:53] It was like a real sort of aha moment for me because I still have those thoughts.
[34:59] And so I still have the thoughts that, you know, why are you not better at this?
[35:03] Why you should, it's the you should, could, all of those kind of thought processes.
[35:09] And so when I hear that, I'm like, ah, that is the part of me that keeps driving and keeps pushing and keeps wanting to improve.
[35:18] Mm-hmm.
[35:19] but I just have to be a little wary of it.
[35:21] And now when I look at things that I am bad at, I'm like, oh, well, those are my weaknesses, but what's the other side of that coin?
[35:29] Like, let me turn over and have a little look on the other side.
[35:33] And that has helped me reconcile not being good at everything.
[35:37] That's very helpful.
[35:38] Yeah.
[35:39] Yeah.
[35:40] And like I do it for other people who I meet, you know, when they're like, oh, you know, I really hate that I'm really bad at this.
[35:45] I'm like, okay, well, what's what are the opposites of that?
[35:48] What are those strengths that are on the other side of that coin that you haven't looked at?
[35:52] Yeah.
[35:53] When you felt so when you're feeling really lonely and potentially at your lowest point,
[35:59] So you've got Bronte there and I wondered if you felt like she was a sister that you could turn to and talk to about all this, knowing that she's in a very similar world or did it feel like she was kind of a competitor and so you couldn't give too much away?
[36:17] And if that was the case, that must have compounded the loneliness even further.
[36:22] Yeah, I didn't tell anyone.
[36:26] I eventually sort of, my coach pulled me up a week or two after that big meltdown of my hot chocolate.
[36:35] And he was like, what's going on, Kate?
[36:37] Because I was training appallingly.
[36:39] Like it was just, and I had no energy.
[36:42] I had nothing, like no energy reserves.
[36:46] And he was like,
[36:47] what's going on?
[36:48] You're looking flat.
[36:50] What do we need to do?
[36:51] And I sort of broke down and said, I've been diagnosed with depression.
[36:55] So he was the first person who I told.
[36:57] How did that sound?
[36:58] How did that feel to say that out loud?
[37:00] Awful.
[37:00] And you're doing it like on pool deck with people.
[37:03] And I just saw him be like, oh, OK, like, let's move this conversation somewhere else.
[37:08] But no, I didn't I didn't tell Bronte for many, many months.
[37:12] It was during the time where
[37:15] we were pulling away from each other and trying to establish ourselves.
[37:20] And we had moved to Sydney at the beginning of 2019.
[37:25] Her partner, who's now a fiancee, lives down there and she was
[37:30] so deliriously happy to be down there.
[37:33] I had established friends, was out at Bondi every weekend.
[37:38] And it was me and Bronte and then the Paralympian Ellie Cole.
[37:43] And it was just the sort of the three of us and then some school aged children in our squad.
[37:47] So it was very, very small.
[37:49] And I really struggled to make friends and build connections with people.
[37:56] And I think that really when I look back,
[37:59] It was the lack of human interaction that was the root cause of everything that came later.
[38:06] And like, I have never had any issues being by myself.
[38:11] I'm a very introverted person.
[38:13] It's how I recharge myself.
[38:14] But there is something so incredibly painful about coming home every night to an empty apartment.
[38:25] spending your weekends completely by yourself.
[38:28] I would see people on Saturday morning when we would train.
[38:32] As soon as we left the pool, I didn't speak to another living soul, unless I went and got a coffee or was at a checkout until Monday morning.
[38:43] And doing that on repeat does something to you and it is not good.
[38:49] It makes sense, of course.
[38:52] And I'm sure there's so many people listening who would have the same experience and I imagine there'd be other people who would maybe say to that, who don't understand what it is like to be in that situation.
[39:04] They might say like, well, why didn't you just call someone?
[39:06] Why don't you just go and hang out with someone?
[39:07] Why don't you invite someone?
[39:09] But obviously that was, you know, COVID's a different thing.
[39:12] But like...
[39:13] That feeling of loneliness, can you just try and explain?
[39:18] I don't know if you can, it might be impossible, but try to explain to someone who doesn't experience that what that is like and what that does.
[39:29] I actually, if we get my phone, I took a photo of one of the pages of my journal entries, which talks about it.
[39:37] So this is a journal entry from that time?
[39:40] Yeah, I was going, like I said, I was looking back and this sort of passage really stuck out to me.
[39:49] Loneliness is a slow, insidious thing.
[39:52] It creeps up on you slowly, silently.
[39:55] It whispers around corners and creeps down your curtains.
[39:59] It makes you believe that the cure for loneliness is loneliness itself.
[40:04] Rather than drive you towards people and connections, it draws you into its arms, feeds your hunger with hunger and your longing with more longing.
[40:14] The more isolated you become, the more convinced you are that the best place for you is alone.
[40:21] It strips away your confidence, energy, motivation and joy, dangles them just in front of your face, teasing, tantalizingly close.
[40:33] And each time you reach for them, they retreat deeper into the darkness, drawing you deeper down with them.
[40:41] But it only takes one hand, one act of kindness, one small encouragement, a grip on the forearm
[40:50] and a strong, secure presence.
[40:53] To be guided back into the light, back into the sun.
[40:58] We all have that power within us.
[41:00] We just need to look out to see who might need it.
[41:04] Have you written a book?
[41:07] I was just gonna say, I didn't realize people were writing journals like that.
[41:11] I've really got to up my journal game.
[41:17] That is so beautiful.
[41:20] Incredible.
[41:21] But it just, it highlighted to me like...
[41:25] what it is like when you were in that vortex of loneliness, like that it is so hard to reach out.
[41:33] And because everything becomes so scary, like you wanna protect yourself.
[41:41] So you just withdraw deeper and deeper.
[41:43] And so to that question that you asked of like, why didn't you just reach out?
[41:48] Why didn't you just call someone?
[41:51] It becomes so hard to do.
[41:54] the further down you get into it.
[41:57] And then there's, you know, there's also the shame.
[41:59] Like I was a successful athlete.
[42:03] I would interact with people.
[42:05] I would go to events, but it would be on a very superficial level.
[42:08] So there was no connection.
[42:09] You can interact without connecting with people.
[42:12] And it's that connection that you really crave.
[42:14] And so when you're then feeling ashamed that you're not feeling fulfilled,
[42:19] and you're not connecting with people, then you don't know how to reach out and it just gets you in this downward spiral.
[42:26] That really resonated that line that you said or wrote, which was, I forget how you said it, but it was essentially that you become convinced that loneliness is the cure to loneliness.
[42:40] And maybe that is the lack of confidence or embarrassment or whatever, but you get lonely.
[42:46] And I've had this so many times where...
[42:50] you know, maybe jam my partner, maybe she's away for a few days.
[42:53] And I just get, and I get really lonely, but I, for whatever reason, I also don't want to reach out and catch up with someone.
[43:00] And I don't know why, but it really feels like I just want to be by myself and deal with this, which is obviously not the right response.
[43:10] Yeah.
[43:10] But it feels like the answer.
[43:13] Wow.
[43:15] Who is the hand in that?
[43:17] Who is the person for you?
[43:21] They were lots of different people at different times.
[43:27] And sometimes it was a server at a coffee shop.
[43:32] Yeah.
[43:33] Sometimes it was...
[43:37] talking to people who I who I really connected with.
[43:40] But it actually ended up being I made a wonderful set of friends in Sydney.
[43:47] It was I went to like essentially like speed dating for friends.
[43:52] It was it was a Saturday night and I was like, I cannot sit here.
[43:56] alone at home.
[43:57] I cannot spend another Saturday night home alone.
[44:00] So I like went up, sign up to like an online like meetup event.
[44:04] And then I walked in and it was it was very explicitly like this is to make friends.
[44:09] This is not speed dating.
[44:11] And I've just come out of a relationship.
[44:12] So I was like not feeling ready to jump back into the dating world.
[44:15] But I was like, I need friends.
[44:16] This is like my mission to make friends.
[44:19] That sounds incredibly brave to do.
[44:22] How do you get to a position from where you were to being able to go to an event like that?
[44:27] Hmm.
[44:29] In a way, I felt like I didn't have a choice.
[44:31] Like my current state, it was so unpalatable to be staying alone and by myself that I just felt like I needed another option.
[44:42] And it was literally the first thing I Googled and it was like, all right, this is it.
[44:47] And I have to do something because it is unbearable to stay in this state.
[44:51] Mm-hmm.
[44:52] or to stay at home alone on a Saturday night again.
[44:55] So I have to do something.
[44:57] Yeah, wow.
[44:58] And I walked into the room and I was like, look, I will either make a friend and that will be great or I will come away with a really good story.
[45:09] Either are preferable to being at home on a Saturday night.
[45:13] I love that.
[45:14] It's such a great way to approach those things, to sort of almost think of it like a scene in your film.
[45:19] It's like, this is the film, my life is a film, and this is going to be a really, either way this goes, it's going to be a memorable scene.
[45:25] Yeah, yeah.
[45:27] And I walked in and there was, you know, it was every stereotype imaginable and I was just like, oh, my goodness, this is so weird.
[45:34] Including an Olympic swimmer.
[45:35] Including, yes, yeah.
[45:37] And...
[45:39] Then I met this young couple.
[45:42] She was Italian and he was Spanish.
[45:45] And it felt like falling in love at first sight.
[45:51] It was like that instant connection, like friendship, like, oh, my goodness, yeah.
[45:57] This is it.
[45:58] Like we are two people and we are seeing each other clearly and we feel connected.
[46:06] And then we exchanged phone numbers that night.
[46:10] Wow.
[46:11] And like the next morning I was like, oh, my gosh, like I really want a message but like I don't know.
[46:16] Like I don't know.
[46:17] I don't want to seem like too eager, but I like had a really good time.
[46:20] Anyway, so I was like, oh, like, hi, Benny.
[46:23] Like, I had a really good time.
[46:24] Would really like to catch up again if that's something you would like.
[46:28] And then she responded and said, yeah, come over next weekend.
[46:31] But I heard the story from her side as well.
[46:33] So they had moved to Australia a year before, had really struggled to meet people and make friends.
[46:39] She was, you know, the only person in her office.
[46:42] And so she couldn't meet people through work.
[46:44] I couldn't meet people through my work.
[46:46] And she said that when the message came in, she was like, look, Maxie, to her husband.
[46:50] She was like, look, Maxie, can't message me.
[46:53] I'm so excited.
[46:54] Yeah, that's so good.
[46:56] And it's like it makes so much sense, of course, because they were at this thing.
[46:59] So obviously, but I imagine in your head, which I would be the same, I'd be thinking they probably don't want to hang out with me.
[47:04] No.
[47:04] Because you're in this position in this place in your life where you don't have the confidence or self-belief maybe.
[47:10] Yeah, and you feel so ashamed.
[47:11] Like, who am I that I can't make friends?
[47:13] Like, are you kidding me?
[47:14] Yeah.
[47:15] What is so unlikable about me that I can't make friends?
[47:18] Yeah.
[47:20] I might be, this might be trying to force something here and it might not work.
[47:24] But can I have their number two?
[47:27] Because they sound great.
[47:28] She's an excellent cook.
[47:31] Italian, so like proper authentic Italian, like one night.
[47:34] So then she would just cook for me every weekend.
[47:36] I would just go over and she would just cook for me every weekend.
[47:39] That's a good friend.
[47:40] It is.
[47:40] Yeah.
[47:43] When you're...
[47:44] You spoke, it was sort of flippant the way you said it earlier, but I wonder if when you're at school and you don't feel like one of the cool kids and I imagine there's a sense of loneliness that comes along with that and then you're in Sydney and everything seems to be going well for Bronte and she's got the friends and the cool kid lifestyle.
[48:07] Is there any confirmation of like, oh, yeah, without the swimming and without everything, this is who I am and I'm just not one of the cool kids?
[48:16] It's very profound.
[48:18] It does that.
[48:20] But no, you're very right.
[48:22] It brought back those feelings of my currency to be able to get people to like me as my performance.
[48:31] And we weren't competing.
[48:34] We weren't performing.
[48:35] I was struggling physically.
[48:37] I'd picked up a few injuries.
[48:39] And then you're right.
[48:41] I was the outsider looking in.
[48:42] I was looking in at Bronte, swanning off and leading her life.
[48:49] You know, and we've spoken about this time and we have both expressed regret at the different ways that we handled it.
[48:59] And I hold absolutely no animosity towards her.
[49:03] She, of course, was off.
[49:06] enjoying her life, which she absolutely should have.
[49:09] And to be honest, on the outside, I didn't tell anyone.
[49:12] So who are they to know?
[49:14] You know, I would take myself off on adventures and I think I explored every beach in the northern beaches of Sydney.
[49:22] I got up and saw many sunrises.
[49:25] And so from the outside it looked like I was great and I was fine, but I was drowning and I was back to being that, like,
[49:34] 16 year old who couldn't understand how to connect with people.
[49:40] And my only way of doing that had been taken away.
[49:44] Yeah.
[49:45] And I guess also maybe a fear that, because you were how old then?
[49:52] 28?
[49:54] Yeah.
[49:56] I guess getting to the back half of your career and thinking, shit, this career is going to end one day as well.
[50:03] What happens then?
[50:04] Yeah.
[50:06] Yeah, I think it was very difficult in terms of like, and I sort of don't allow myself to go down this train of thought of like the what ifs.
[50:18] So if we look at my like trajectory from 2019 into 2020 before all the lockdown happens, like...
[50:27] I'm not impressed very easily, but even I was impressed at how well I was doing.
[50:31] I was absolutely killing it.
[50:36] Like physically I was just on fire.
[50:39] And then the Olympics got cancelled slash postponed and we went into eight weeks of no swimming pool.
[50:46] Like we had to train by ourselves at home, like...
[50:50] And that broke my momentum.
[50:52] And then from there, I never got back.
[50:55] Like I and to be honest, I have never gotten back to that.
[51:00] And I have tried and tried, you know, I tried it in Paris as well to get to Paris and to get back to
[51:07] that physical state that I was in, but for whatever reason, it's gone and it's never coming back.
[51:13] And so for some people, the postponement of the Games was a really good thing.
[51:18] It gave, for Bronte, it was actually a really good thing.
[51:21] She was so injured and battling so many injuries that it looked like she wasn't even going to qualify for the Tokyo Olympics if they had been held individually.
[51:29] in 2020, but that extra year off allowed her to rehab some of those injuries and allowed her to get back and starting to train.
[51:37] So I was watching her take full advantage of this extra year and everything that life had thrown at her and the fact that she was now living in Sydney and how wonderful that was.
[51:47] And then I was on the other side just watching everything that I had
[51:51] poured everything into just like slipped through my fingers and I couldn't quite grasp it again.
[51:59] And I'm sure that's what contributed to it as well.
[52:02] Yeah, for sure.
[52:03] So I'm interested to know about, because there's so many different options when someone's diagnosed depression and there's all this advice on you could do this, you could try this.
[52:13] One of the options is medication.
[52:16] Did you use medication at all throughout that time?
[52:19] I did, but again, it was something that I put off or I told myself I didn't need for a long time.
[52:28] I actually only started taking medication five weeks before the Tokyo 2021 Olympic Games.
[52:35] Oh, wow.
[52:36] Did that feel like a huge gamble or...?
[52:38] Yeah, but again, similar to my decision to go and make friends, it was like anything is better than what I'm currently facing.
[52:46] Okay.
[52:47] And sort of the...
[52:50] The catalyst for me deciding like I am not okay was the Australian Olympic swimming trials, which are like the most stressful event.
[53:01] It's almost more stressful than the Olympics.
[53:02] So to qualify for the team, you have to come first or second in your event in the country and swim a time that puts you within the top eight people in the world.
[53:10] And if you do that, you realise your dream and you go to the Olympics.
[53:14] And if you don't do that, then you have to come back and try again.
[53:18] And competing is something that I have always really enjoyed.
[53:23] It's a chance to put together all the work that you've done over all the years.
[53:27] And it is nerve wracking and it is stressful.
[53:32] But at the same time, you get to see what you can do.
[53:37] And I just remember...
[53:41] being so terrified.
[53:44] Like I, and I have never ever felt like that level of fear and anxiety heading into those Olympic swimming trials.
[53:54] I guess the context is, sorry to interrupt, but the context might also be that in 2016, you felt like you hadn't delivered on what you had set out to.
[54:02] Yes.
[54:02] Even though you still won a couple of gold medals.
[54:04] But yeah, I missed out on winning the individual gold medal in the 100 metres freestyle.
[54:09] And I really, like, I should, I'm using that word again.
[54:13] I should have won that.
[54:13] I was a world record holder going in and I had underperformed and I missed out on that gold medal.
[54:21] And so here I was, it's now five years later, I am carrying injuries leaning in plus this diagnosis of depression, which I'm actively working on.
[54:35] And I have never felt that sense of dread standing behind the starting blocks.
[54:41] And I finished second in the 100 freestyle, so I managed to qualify for the team behind Emma McKeon.
[54:47] And I just remember hitting the wall.
[54:49] And I wasn't even relieved.
[54:52] I wasn't happy.
[54:53] I was just like so afraid because I was like, I have to go and do this again in five weeks' time and I don't want to be feeling like this.
[55:03] Mm-hmm.
[55:04] I can't do that again.
[55:05] And I was using all the tools in my toolkit.
[55:09] I was doing all the things that you're supposed to do to manage those emotions and those feelings.
[55:15] And literally as soon as that competition finished, I went to my sports doctor and I said, I need some help.
[55:22] Like I need some medication to help.
[55:26] Yeah.
[55:27] And of course, there's a risk because there's I don't know what that's going to do to me and performance wise, what does that mean?
[55:32] But I was like, I don't care.
[55:33] I can't I can't be feeling like this anymore.
[55:36] And so I started taking the medication.
[55:39] I was so ashamed of it.
[55:41] I was rooming with a young rookie girl to try and like incorporate her into the team and then would would be moving and rooming with Bronte during the actual games.
[55:51] But like she was a nurse.
[55:54] And so I just remember being so afraid that she would see this pill bottle or like this prescription in my bag and like know what I was taking.
[56:02] So I was like hiding it in my room because I should be able to push through and, you know, I shouldn't need it.
[56:11] You were also the figurehead of that Olympic Games.
[56:13] You were the flag bearer in 2021.
[56:17] But when I look back on it now.
[56:20] number of anti-inflammatories that I was chowing down on.
[56:28] If I compare the mental side to the physical side, yes, I was doing all the physical exercises, I was doing my physio, I was getting massages, I was doing Pilates, I was doing everything.
[56:37] And on my mental side, I was
[56:40] doing my journaling, I was eating well, I was sleeping well, I was doing all the mindful exercises, doing all of that.
[56:46] You know what I was also doing for my physical...
[56:48] I was hoeing down those anti-inflammatories like there was no tomorrow.
[56:50] I was giving myself a stomach ulcer.
[56:53] But I couldn't see that I might need help here.
[56:55] Yeah.
[56:56] Why was I so against it?
[56:59] And I was on that medication for a long time.
[57:02] I only came off that medication in, you know, November of last year.
[57:08] Oh, wow.
[57:09] Yeah.
[57:09] And how do you feel now?
[57:10] Like in the absence of something that's played a big part of your life for the last four years now?
[57:15] Yeah, it was scary coming off it because it had helped me stabilise.
[57:22] It had sort of just given me that like little push to get back to solid ground.
[57:27] Like anyone done a chin up?
[57:30] I'll try.
[57:31] I'll try.
[57:31] I actually have copied the way your sister does them.
[57:33] Oh, there we go.
[57:34] To be very specific.
[57:35] Very slow and controlled if anyone's wondering.
[57:37] So I don't know if you like.
[57:39] you reach a point where like you're struggling but you're not moving anywhere and then someone can just come and they literally take like it's like a couple of hundred grams and suddenly you can get like up and over the bar yeah that's what it felt like this medication did for me like i was just i was gripping and i was like so close like you know my nose was at the bar but i just couldn't get and and the medication just gave me that little push and my chin came over the bar that's a great
[58:05] Uh, and so I was, I was really afraid stepping, uh, coming off it.
[58:10] Um, I'm also going through a big transition, you know, coming out of elite sport and into life after sport.
[58:16] Uh, and I made the decision because I just wanted to feel like what it was like without it.
[58:23] But I also know the difference between, uh.
[58:30] experiencing emotions and discomfort.
[58:33] And I am in a period of a lot of change and volatility and what sits within the realms of what is normal versus when I'm unwell and when that goes too far.
[58:46] And so I think for me, it is...
[58:51] an inability to control my emotions.
[58:54] Like when I was really unwell, I was having really awful thoughts and I would cry at the drop of a hat.
[59:01] Like I just, I felt like my emotions or my bandwidth, my capacity for coping with any situation, I felt like I was a glass of water.
[59:12] You know how you can fill glasses of water and the surface tension, you can actually fill the glass
[59:18] above the rim of the glass.
[59:19] The meniscus.
[59:20] The meniscus.
[59:20] Yes.
[59:21] Ooh, yes, that.
[59:23] Yes, the meniscus.
[59:24] The meniscus, yes.
[59:25] So I felt like at that time that I was constantly on this edge and like one little rock of the table and that emotion would spill over or my ability to deal with a situation would,
[59:39] like the power tripping, would just completely floor me and flood me and I just couldn't handle it.
[59:45] And so I recognise now when I'm starting to feel like that and I'm able to pull back, whether that's spend time with friends and family, whether that is being like, oh, this is how you're feeling, I'm going to be kind to myself, not keep pushing and bury it deep down.
[1:00:04] So I feel like I have enough skill to...
[1:00:09] and enough knowledge to know if I'm starting to tip over too much and I may need to go back.
[1:00:14] But I'm feeling really good and I'm able to navigate things really well.
[1:00:18] That's great.
[1:00:20] So the three of us often do events where we go and speak wherever.
[1:00:25] And one of the questions we always get asked is, is there a moment in the podcast that's really changed you or had a profound impact on you?
[1:00:32] And the answer is yes, and it actually happened in Bronte's episode and it was a part of really your story as well that I resonated with so much.
[1:00:42] As young kids growing up, six years older than Josh, I was very aware that he looked up to me a lot.
[1:00:48] I dyed my hair, Brock's dyed my hair blonde, he did the same.
[1:00:51] You wore a turtle, your shell necklace.
[1:00:54] I got a shell necklace.
[1:00:54] I got a shell necklace.
[1:00:56] Weirdly, Josh has yet to buy a pair of Crocs.
[1:01:00] I think he's about to explain one.
[1:01:04] I would listen to Metallica, Josh would learn to play on the guitar.
[1:01:08] Yeah.
[1:01:09] And I felt very much, it was a lovely feeling that my little brother looked up to me, he'd come watch me play cricket and football and I just loved it.
[1:01:16] And there was a point in our lives where probably I was mid to mid-late 20s and Josh was probably in his early 20s.
[1:01:27] And I felt all of a sudden, for me what I felt was like he just didn't like me anymore all of a sudden.
[1:01:33] I remember being quite rattled by that, but also quite hurt and just confused.
[1:01:39] And then my self-esteem went down accordingly.
[1:01:41] I was like, well, if he doesn't like me, the person who's always my biggest fan doesn't like me, then this doesn't bode well for me.
[1:01:48] And I can't remember the exact wording, but Bronte said something like she got to a point in her life when she realized she had to forge her own path.
[1:01:57] In fact, we might just play that clip for you now.
[1:02:00] You ever been like jungle bashing?
[1:02:02] Yeah, I have actually.
[1:02:03] Yeah.
[1:02:04] Okay.
[1:02:04] So Hugh's walking in front, Kate's walking in front and they're clearing the path.
[1:02:09] And then at some point you're like, I'm going to start making my own path.
[1:02:13] And you're like, this is just a jungle now.
[1:02:16] Like this is, I don't know where I'm going at all.
[1:02:18] You say Kate's a deep thinker.
[1:02:19] I think you are.
[1:02:21] That is a really good analogy.
[1:02:23] That's exactly how it felt.
[1:02:24] It's like, well, I don't, I was following a path now.
[1:02:26] I don't know where I'm going.
[1:02:28] And that's.
[1:02:30] terrifying and then it's really exciting.
[1:02:34] Yeah.
[1:02:35] And that is the moment that, that when Josh and I actually, Josh said, no, I just wanted to, I did the same thing.
[1:02:40] I wanted to just go my own direction.
[1:02:41] Not that I wanted to, not that I didn't like you.
[1:02:44] And that was huge for me to hear that.
[1:02:45] And I wouldn't have heard it if I never would have heard that if it wasn't for Bronte being on our podcast, but I want to know, um, from your point of view, how that felt and was it similar to my experience?
[1:02:55] Yeah, that part of your chat with her also really, really resonated with me because, yeah, I felt really abandoned.
[1:03:05] I think that I took on like the role of like the mother hen.
[1:03:09] Like I had this like instinct to protect her and guide her and help her and assist her.
[1:03:15] And suddenly like my advances were met with like a hand, like, no, I don't want it or a pullback or a pull away.
[1:03:25] I couldn't understand.
[1:03:26] I was like, why?
[1:03:27] You know, this has been our dynamic for so long.
[1:03:32] Yeah.
[1:03:32] Don't you like me?
[1:03:33] Don't you want my help?
[1:03:35] Like, I don't understand.
[1:03:37] And also maybe I didn't understand how to interact with her if it wasn't older sister to younger sister, as opposed to two peers and two equals meeting together.
[1:03:48] And...
[1:03:50] Yeah, it's really disconcerting to turn around and to have that person who you've always thought was following you to suddenly not be there.
[1:04:02] And yeah, like I said, I don't hold any animosity towards Bronte.
[1:04:08] I was deeply sad and I grieved deeply.
[1:04:13] the closeness of our relationship during that period.
[1:04:17] And I would say that now we've been able to address it and we've been able to redefine how we interact, you know, in a way that feels authentic for both of us, because ultimately I probably wasn't seeing Bronte as her whole self.
[1:04:34] I was seeing her as my little sister and she wanted to be like, no, no, I'm just Bronte by myself.
[1:04:39] Like,
[1:04:40] and this is who I am and this is what I like to do and this is what I don't like to do.
[1:04:43] And I wasn't seeing her clearly enough because I was seeing her through an old lens.
[1:04:49] So we needed to switch out and get a new model.
[1:04:54] So, yeah, there was all those things that were going on that now when I talk about it, I'm like, oh, no, it makes sense why you were feeling quite bad.
[1:05:06] So was there, I mean, I'm assuming there was, what was the moment where you did talk to Bronte and your family and the people closest in your life about what you're going through?
[1:05:17] So I probably told Bronte that I had been seeing a psychologist for depression probably a couple of months after I had started to do that.
[1:05:31] What was that?
[1:05:31] What was that like?
[1:05:33] I think that she felt really sad that I hadn't come to her earlier.
[1:05:39] Mm-hmm.
[1:05:41] But I...
[1:05:44] didn't feel like I could accept her help.
[1:05:48] Like sometimes kindness is the thing that undoes you when you're in that state.
[1:05:55] As in like you can cope if everyone just treats you fine.
[1:05:58] And I don't know if you've ever had the time where someone says, like, how are you?
[1:06:04] Oh, yeah.
[1:06:05] Yeah, and you're just like, I actually can't handle this.
[1:06:08] Yeah.
[1:06:09] I can't answer that question.
[1:06:10] Yeah, it's too hard.
[1:06:11] I actually can't.
[1:06:13] And so I didn't feel like I could handle her being kind to me and maybe her administering the care of like that older sister care that I had been so used to administering to her.
[1:06:26] You know, I couldn't take care of myself and I couldn't bear the fact that she would be
[1:06:31] Oh, right.
[1:06:31] That she would be the person who would have to do that for me.
[1:06:34] That's not your role sort of thing.
[1:06:36] No, no, that's not my role.
[1:06:38] And, yeah, it was, it's been interesting moving forward now, being able to look back on those moments and being able to,
[1:06:55] retrospectively offer myself the compassion that I wasn't allowing myself to feel at the time.
[1:07:02] How do you do that?
[1:07:03] How do you offer yourself compassion?
[1:07:05] Is it literally just a more positive self-talk?
[1:07:07] It's the understanding that I was doing the best I could with the information I had at the time because
[1:07:22] I wasn't like I wasn't I wasn't trying to get depression.
[1:07:25] I wasn't I I was actively you know, I thought I was trying and doing all the right things to.
[1:07:35] progress myself out of the situation.
[1:07:36] I was like out, I was doing things, I was doing all the things you should.
[1:07:41] I was exercising, you know, everyone says, oh, like, have you exercised?
[1:07:43] Are you eating well?
[1:07:44] I was like, yes, I'm always doing those things.
[1:07:46] Are you spending time in nature?
[1:07:47] Yes, I'm doing those things.
[1:07:50] And one of the things I was just like,
[1:07:53] I was so angry with myself at the time.
[1:07:55] I was like, I can't believe I let myself get to this stage.
[1:07:58] I can't believe that I'm responsible for the situation I found myself in.
[1:08:03] And now when I look back, I'm like, oh, honey, you were doing the best you could with the information you have at the time.
[1:08:09] I now have more information.
[1:08:12] And so.
[1:08:14] I'm making, if I'm looking back and I'm judging my past self, I'm judging my past self based on the information that I have today that she didn't have.
[1:08:20] Yeah.
[1:08:22] And probably times in five, 10 years time, I'm going to look back and be like, oh, honey.
[1:08:27] Yeah, yeah.
[1:08:31] You were trying.
[1:08:31] Yeah.
[1:08:33] And that's kind of what's important.
[1:08:36] There's something in, I'm sure psychologists have very technical terms for all this stuff, but there's something in what you're saying that it always feels like the thing that does the most damage is like the secondary level of internal dialogue.
[1:08:52] It's like, maybe that's wrong, but for me, it feels like it's not just the feeling of
[1:08:58] I feel like shit.
[1:08:59] It's the feeling of I shouldn't be feeling like shit.
[1:09:02] Or like I, oh, there's been so many points in here where you've sort of said I was feeling this thing but then there was an added level of criticism on top of it for the feeling of the feeling.
[1:09:13] And I always feel like that, for me anyway, that is what does the most amount of damage.
[1:09:17] It's a judgment on the feeling, right?
[1:09:19] Yeah.
[1:09:20] The lack of compassion on the feeling.
[1:09:25] Feelings, we can't actually control them, right?
[1:09:29] Like you can't will yourself to feel a different way.
[1:09:33] So there is nothing that like you can consciously do to change how you are physiologically
[1:09:39] feeling at the time.
[1:09:41] And so then, yeah, when when you place that cognitive judgment on a subconscious thing that's happening in your body.
[1:09:51] As if it's a choice.
[1:09:52] As if it's a choice.
[1:09:53] Yeah.
[1:09:54] And yeah, I agree that that that by far did the most damage and it allowed me to stay in that state a lot longer because I was judging those feelings, not acknowledging them.
[1:10:06] Yeah, that's nice.
[1:10:08] There's a really, it's sort of, it's the way the question's worded.
[1:10:13] I've been sort of thinking about this a lot as you've been talking.
[1:10:15] The question on the card?
[1:10:16] Yeah, sorry, the question on the card where it says being dishonest with yourself.
[1:10:20] Because it kind of feels like you weren't being, it was a subconscious dishonesty.
[1:10:24] Like it wasn't like you knew, didn't sound like you knew something was wrong for a long time.
[1:10:30] Like you were actually lying to yourself.
[1:10:31] It was this sort of coping mechanism almost.
[1:10:34] Maybe.
[1:10:35] Maybe.
[1:10:36] Yeah, it was like deep down there was something profoundly wrong that you feel in your core, right?
[1:10:44] Like as human beings, feelings keep us alive.
[1:10:48] They're the things that drive us to do things that make us survive as a species.
[1:10:56] And so I knew like deep down inside that there was something wrong.
[1:11:01] And it was my failure to acknowledge that.
[1:11:05] It was that dishonesty, that layer of judgment that I was putting on top of what was going on physically that allowed things to perpetuate and snowball.
[1:11:18] And you know, one of the things I've really learned now is to stop and recognise feelings.
[1:11:24] So when I'm, when I'm feeling something, it's like, oh,
[1:11:27] I'm like, I actually speak to them.
[1:11:29] I'm like, oh, hello, like you're feeling nervous today.
[1:11:31] Or like, hey, that's a thought of self-judgment or you're feeling tired or you're feeling down or you're feeling lonely.
[1:11:42] You felt like you haven't been connected.
[1:11:44] And so I actually like turn and face them.
[1:11:47] I don't have to judge it because I can't control it.
[1:11:51] And so it's actually not...
[1:11:55] It is part of me, but it's not part of the conscious me.
[1:11:59] So why am I so angry about it?
[1:12:03] And then I'm like, oh, okay.
[1:12:04] You know, I either say, oh, you know, you're feeling stressed and anxious and nervous.
[1:12:09] It's like, that's nice to know.
[1:12:11] Thank you for telling me.
[1:12:13] I still have to go and do all of these things today.
[1:12:15] So I'm going to carry those feelings with me.
[1:12:17] Yeah, yeah.
[1:12:17] And try not to judge myself.
[1:12:18] And try not to judge myself.
[1:12:20] You know, I'm going to do the thing anyway.
[1:12:22] Or it's like, oh, I'm feeling really lonely.
[1:12:26] I'm feeling flat.
[1:12:29] I am not feeling challenged or whatever it is.
[1:12:33] What things can I put in place that are going to help that?
[1:12:35] You know, can I call a friend?
[1:12:38] Can I...
[1:12:40] you know, decide to do a fun run or something, you know, whatever, whatever, whatever the root feeling is, it's like once you turn and acknowledge it and not judge it, it either just allows you to be like, oh, these are things that are happening, but I still need to keep going.
[1:12:56] Or these are things that are happening, but I can actually put some steps in place to help change that.
[1:13:01] Yeah, amazing.
[1:13:03] So just one last question, which I'm just interested to know you spend so much time obsessing over a distance and an event in the pool, and you've probably had a lot of time to think about this, but what analogies can you get from 50, how analogous is the 50-meter freestyle to life?
[1:13:23] Have you thought about that?
[1:13:25] Well, one, you're brave.
[1:13:26] Yeah.
[1:13:28] the other one um when you perform at your best you have this complete trust in yourself to execute in the moment and and it's that deep subconscious trust right so it's like this feeling
[1:13:50] that you can switch off your conscious mind and you almost watch yourself do the thing.
[1:13:58] Like you're consciously not engaged with it at all and it's everything that you've managed to pour into it.
[1:14:06] And when you do that, you remove the judgment and you remove the pressure and you remove the expectation.
[1:14:16] And in a way, you become like a little kid again, you know, that are completely free and uninhibited and...
[1:14:28] They don't have a clear sense of self in the way that we do because we cultivate a sense of self to project towards other people.
[1:14:37] They're like the truest expression of themselves because they're not creating this little persona that they want to show everyone.
[1:14:45] Like, look, this is who I am.
[1:14:47] And...
[1:14:49] When you're performing at your best and in those races where I have had that absolute best execution, it is like that feeling.
[1:14:57] It is like the truest expression of who I am and I'm able to take away the noise and everything else and just exist in that one moment completely.
[1:15:09] Brilliant.
[1:15:10] And it'll be something that I'll miss, you know.
[1:15:12] I'll have to find something else that can help fill that, but that's probably the thing that I'll miss.
[1:15:18] Yeah, amazing.
[1:15:19] I feel like you've done that beautifully today.
[1:15:21] I really do.
[1:15:22] It's been such a joy to chat to you.
[1:15:25] There's so many things that I didn't expect to be chatting about today, but I'm so happy we did.
[1:15:29] And thanks for being so honest with that.
[1:15:31] I feel like loneliness is something that a lot of people just won't really want to talk about.
[1:15:35] Yeah, so it's so great to hear someone talk about it, someone as successful and well-known as yourself.
[1:15:41] I think it's going to help so many people.
[1:15:44] Well, it's, it's informed, you know, what I'm wanting to do now.
[1:15:47] I'm currently training to be a Lifeline crisis phone worker.
[1:15:50] Oh, really?
[1:15:50] To be a volunteer on the phones.
[1:15:53] Amazing.
[1:15:54] Because of, of that experience.
[1:15:56] I, I never got to the point where I needed to call Lifeline, but I understood how you would get there and how that could happen to anyone at any point.
[1:16:07] Well, that's just going to increase the number of phone calls to Lifeline now.
[1:16:11] People are hoping they get to chat with Kate Campbell.
[1:16:14] He's Kate there.
[1:16:15] You've called Lifeline.
[1:16:16] I was an Olympic swimmer.
[1:16:17] Go ahead.
[1:16:22] Kate, thank you so much for your time today.
[1:16:23] It's been an absolute pleasure.
[1:16:24] Thank you for having me, guys.
[1:16:25] Thank you.
[1:16:28] If you enjoyed this episode, there's a very good chance you'll love the Vulnerability Mail, our weekly newsletter to help you remain imperfect.
[1:16:36] Each week, we'll send you one vulnerable question inspired by the current episode to help you unpack your own imperfect life.
[1:16:42] Subscribe at www.theimperfects.com.au.

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