# Dr Emily - Using The Force For Good

An episode of [The Imperfects](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1476501557), 8 Jun 2025, 1 h 19 min.

Audio: https://enrichment.soundstack.com/4vjqq8/episode.flightcast.com/vidwv3b49z9spr8i6qen01lk.mp3

This is where the fun begins. 💌 Subscribe to our newsletter, the Vulnerabilitea-mail - www.theimperfects.com.au Today we welcome the Return of the Dr Emily, our resident psychologist, to talk about the Force in all its (clinical) glory. Amongst the immense excitement of Hugh, Ryan and Josh, Dr Emily talks through the lightness and darkness inside us all, and how the presence of a good mentor makes a world of difference. Bringing psychology back to the forefront of this ep, Dr Emily likens Yoda’s general vibe to the principles of Acceptance Commitment Therapy, whilst also pointing out the incredible power of mindfulness (just ask Luke Skywalker). Hugh, Ryan and Josh chat with Dr Emily about The Hero’s Journey, main character syndrome and how to let go of our ego to embrace your authentic self. May the Force be with you. If you’d like to watch this full episode on YouTube, click here - https://bit.ly/3FGlYG6 🫖Other Imperfects episodes mentioned in this episode • Dr Emily - Resent Less, Live More - https://bit.ly/4mGNOCP • Dr Emily - Hope - https://apple.co/4l9des9 • Dr Emily - The Certainty of Uncertainty - https://bit.ly/3SyoWj0 • Dr Emily - Grief Lightening - https://bit.ly/4kki9W6 • Maria Ruberto - Advancing Despite Adversity - https://apple.co/4e2Io05 • Hugh’s Open Letter to Parents of Neurodivergent People - https://apple.co/4l4kw0m • Hugh’s ADHD…brief (Bonus From Patreon) - https://bit.ly/4jefaNP 💻Things / people to check out • Tara Brach - https://bit.ly/43Fk8gR • Scott Barry Kaufman - https://bit.ly/4dSmwFK • Dr Robyn D Walser - https://bit.ly/4kEI5M0 • Joseph Campbell’s The Hero’s Journey - https://bit.ly/3HlH516 • The Star Wars Catalogue - https://bit.ly/3HzXi2x 📖 Things to read • Unstuck by Dr Emily Musgrove - https://bit.ly/4bhmCp2 🩷To host your own Vulnerabilitea House, purchase the Vulnerabilitea House Cards here - https://bit.ly/3Cx4tGP 🩵To purchase our journal (or your novel) My Imperfect Life, click here - https://bit.ly/3Cx4tGP 🩵To join our patreon community, A Little More Imperfects, follow this link - patreon.com/theimperfects 🩷 AND you can subscribe to A Little More Imperfects through Apple Podcasts too, here apple.co/theimperfects The Imperfects is not a licensed mental health service and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, treatment or assessment. The advice given in this episode is general in nature, but if you’re struggling, please see a healthcare professional, or call lifeline on 13 11 14.

## Transcript

[0:00] We all have a capacity to be the Darth Vader, to be the Anakin.
[0:04] Within us all is this potential to be totally taken over by our instincts and our urges and our emotions.
[0:12] And the great challenge that we have is to be able to acknowledge them, to turn towards them and then grow the space so we can choose the wise, like what's called the wise action.
[0:24] And by you naming I'm feeling overwhelmed, that is not giving in to the dark side, so to speak.
[0:30] Quick, is anyone here a doctor?
[0:32] Yes, her name is Dr Emily, and she's a psychologist.
[0:37] Please welcome to The Imperfects, our very own...
[0:41] Psychologist!
[0:44] Woo!
[0:46] She's back.
[0:46] She's back again.
[0:47] God, I'm loving more Dr. M in 2025.
[0:51] Yeah.
[0:51] That's excellent.
[0:52] More regularity.
[0:53] Come across the ditch.
[0:54] Not the ditch, the land.
[0:55] No, no.
[0:56] Yeah.
[0:56] Not that we need to remind everyone, but... Every episode.
[1:00] Every episode.
[1:01] We should remind them that Unstuck, the book written by Dr. Emily, a guide to finding your way forward to the life you want to live.
[1:10] Absolute BS.
[1:13] Bestseller.
[1:15] Wow.
[1:16] Definitely leave that last bit in the clip.
[1:22] Dr. M, resident psychologist.
[1:25] Yes.
[1:26] What can you... Because often you bring a clip from an old episode that has happened on the podcast and you'll expand on it in a clinical way.
[1:35] Yes.
[1:36] Is that what's happening?
[1:38] Yes.
[1:38] And I feel like this is...
[1:40] coming full circle here because I'm harking back to myself.
[1:45] Wow.
[1:46] Yeah.
[1:46] I know.
[1:47] It's like my narcissism is really like hitting straps today.
[1:52] So there's a clip that I wanted to play from the episode that I did last year on resentment, and there was a particular part in it, and...
[2:01] It garnered quite a lot of, I think, maybe interest or excitement at the possibility of doing an episode on this particular theme.
[2:08] So I thought I would just play it and then you can understand.
[2:13] Okay.
[2:13] Okay.
[2:15] Rey in The Force Awakens, a Star Wars movie, comes across a huge snake that is going to kill her and Finn and Poe, Dameron, and anyway, and C-3PO.
[2:29] And they've all got their lightsabers out and their guns.
[2:33] It sort of sounds like when someone's listening, they'll be like, oh, have they accidentally edited in Hugh's Star Wars podcast?
[2:40] It's been like a mistake on the timeline.
[2:45] So, yeah, five stars.
[2:48] And the snake rears up and they're all about to, like, shoot it.
[2:50] And Ray says, stops them and she walks over to it and she sees that it's wounded badly.
[2:57] And she uses the force and she puts her hand on the wound, which is incredibly scary thing to do.
[3:00] But she heals this snake and then it, like, it just slithers off.
[3:04] And then all of a sudden there's this opening so they can escape the cave they're in.
[3:08] Yep.
[3:09] So how does the force play into it?
[3:15] I could do an episode on that from a psychological point of view.
[3:18] It's like very well known.
[3:20] Really?
[3:20] Yes.
[3:21] That's definitely.
[3:22] On the force.
[3:24] Yeah, like Yoda actually is going to it.
[3:28] No, I think we should put a pin in this.
[3:30] Meta-awareness and meditation and stuff.
[3:34] I won't go into it.
[3:34] It might not be the force awakens, so I might correct me there.
[3:37] is it star wars day am is today the day the pin was put in and here we are jeez that's right yeah a bit of vader for you
[3:57] So yes, so I wanted to talk today about Star Wars.
[4:01] Yeah.
[4:02] Top 10 moments.
[4:04] Yes, exactly.
[4:06] And I do realise this feels really trivial, but the deeper that you dive into the metaphors that are present in this franchise of storytelling, the more we recognise like the universal applicability to human suffering and human living.
[4:26] It is rich in psychological metaphors, so I thought it could be an interesting place to talk about a few things.
[4:32] Josh, out of 100, how excited are you?
[4:35] Keep it close to, I'd say high 90s.
[4:38] Almost.
[4:39] I thought it was going to be a perfect 100.
[4:40] Okay, yeah.
[4:41] Yeah, what a given that gift.
[4:44] 91.
[4:45] Yeah.
[4:46] To be honest.
[4:49] If it was Luke Skywalker playing guitar, 100.
[4:53] Can I do that again?
[4:53] 100.
[4:54] 100 out of 100.
[4:55] Yeah, 100 out of 100.
[4:56] Yeah, I'm 100.
[4:57] Yeah, absolute maximum.
[4:59] Cannot believe this is happening.
[5:00] I also have, I think I've just thought of a title for the ep, because a few weeks ago now, it would have been released, and did an episode, Hope.
[5:08] This could be called A New Hope.
[5:09] Oh, my God.
[5:12] Oh, this is so exciting.
[5:13] Okay, so if you don't like Star Wars, if you're not a Star Wars fan, there are many people out there who don't really not like it, but they're just like, I'll never watch it.
[5:21] Don't press stop.
[5:22] Just keep listening because it's desperate.
[5:25] Please stay.
[5:27] Please stay.
[5:28] We're going to get something out of this, I promise.
[5:31] And absolutely.
[5:32] I have to tell you that from my experience, I have been almost like an innocent bystander to Star Wars.
[5:38] So I would say that whilst I am maybe more of a passive fan, I have been exposed to it because both my brothers were very, very obsessed with it growing up.
[5:47] So we're not going to go into the specifics of the storyline and get into it.
[5:54] all of the content around that.
[5:56] And I also don't in any way want to undermine all of the fans that are out there that really genuinely hold this very, very close to their heart.
[6:05] But I wanted to look at it in terms of, you know, what are the messages that emerge from this series?
[6:10] And also, again, like this sense of hopefulness that comes from storytelling and from meaning-making and how that for so many people...
[6:20] something like Star Wars or it could be something like Harry Potter, Lord of the Rings, any kind of epic adventure, adversity challenge kind of movie or story also feels very meaningful as some kind of representation also of the struggles that we encounter as individuals.
[6:42] And I think that for a lot of people, something like Star Wars also brings something that, again, feels very hopeful.
[6:51] Yeah.
[6:51] Great.
[6:52] With a sense of nostalgia as well.
[6:54] Yeah.
[6:54] It's comforting.
[6:55] Yeah.
[6:57] There are actually a myriad of ways in which we can talk about this that can feel hopefully useful.
[7:03] I obviously, as you know, tend to come from an ACT point of view.
[7:06] Which is?
[7:07] Acceptance and commitment therapy.
[7:08] Yep.
[7:09] And mindfulness-based approaches.
[7:11] But really, any psychological approach to therapy can use this, coming from a slightly different lens, but definitely it has broad applicability.
[7:21] I will mention off the bat that when we look at Star Wars, we obviously have these two major themes here of the light and the dark.
[7:28] So even just looking at that, say we all have obvious representations of light and dark.
[7:34] And again, there are numerous psychological ways in which we can understand what this means.
[7:39] I will kind of say off the bat that there is a lens of psychology that could view the light and the dark as representing a cluster of personality traits or personality structures.
[7:50] And so there's what's called the dark triad in terms of personality traits.
[7:56] The dark triad, it represents narcissism, psychopathy and Machiavellianism.
[8:04] And so that if we look at the characters in Star Wars that are on the dark side, we can almost see those personality traits.
[8:13] So it would be things like a coldness, need for power, manipulation.
[8:19] Is that kind of resonating?
[8:20] Yeah, I'm glad there's a fictitious thing to give an example for here because I can't think of any real world examples.
[8:26] But yeah, this is really helpful that we've got Star Wars.
[8:29] Yeah, exactly.
[8:30] And so that has been looked at in terms of, again, personality traits.
[8:34] And the work of Scott Barry Kaufman, who has like an amazing podcast, the psychology podcast, it was probably one of the first psychology ones.
[8:41] And he has come up with the light triad in contrast, which represents really kind of like a hopefulness
[8:51] a belief in us as humans' personality trait.
[8:55] And he suggests that it is made up of three potential personality traits, humanism, faith in humanity, and Kantianism, which is the opposite to Machiavellianism.
[9:09] Okay.
[9:10] And it's based on ancient philosophy about the notion that humans are the ends rather than the means to an end.
[9:19] I really focused to pronounce that word.
[9:21] I know.
[9:21] I really did.
[9:22] I don't want to stop that one.
[9:24] I really did.
[9:24] Yeah.
[9:25] I would have assumed kantinism was a different thing.
[9:29] Yeah.
[9:30] So it's K-A-N-T.
[9:31] I want to be clear.
[9:32] Yeah.
[9:32] Yeah.
[9:32] Good.
[9:33] No, no, you all over.
[9:36] And if we look at the – I can't believe I'm saying this.
[9:39] If we look at the Jedi – Clinical psychologist, Dr. Emily Musgrove.
[9:47] We can see this kind of representation there of that power or strength is used for defence rather than attack.
[9:56] That there is an innate drive towards something bigger than ourselves.
[10:03] this collective humanity, a sense of values connection.
[10:07] Like that is one way in which we can look at the Star Wars franchise is that it's representing different personality traits and structures and that we can then also take on board.
[10:17] Okay, so where are we?
[10:19] What's our experience in here of that spectrum almost of traits?
[10:24] Yeah.
[10:25] What comes with that also is a deep acknowledgement that within all of us is both the light and the dark.
[10:31] Yeah.
[10:31] Yeah.
[10:32] And that, you know, if you were to follow the metaphors in Star Wars, what brings you to the light and what brings you to achievement and fulfilment is actually turning towards the dark, facing the dark, integrating the dark and moving forward with the light.
[10:52] I mean, Kylo Ren is the perfect example.
[10:55] Would you like to say more?
[10:57] Yeah, I mean, very quickly, Kylo Ren is kind of like the re...
[11:01] He's the new Darth Vader, very dark and evil, and all the things you said before.
[11:07] And eventually, spoiler, but love shows him the light.
[11:13] Yeah.
[11:15] Yeah, so that's one way in which we can look at it.
[11:17] But I think the thing that feels most and more meaningful to me is understanding the metaphors in the context of emotion regulation.
[11:26] and in particular around acceptance of painful feelings.
[11:31] And, you know, if we were to track like Luke Skywalker's experience.
[11:37] So Luke Skywalker is like the hero.
[11:39] The ultimate Jedi.
[11:40] The ultimate Jedi.
[11:41] Yeah.
[11:42] And we meet him like the very first film was about Luke Skywalker.
[11:45] Yeah.
[11:46] And he is, in essence, his journey is around understanding the truth.
[11:53] Mm-hmm.
[11:54] and facing his fears and yet not being pushed around by his fears and not being driven by fear and hatred.
[12:05] And if we, if we zoom out and have a look at this from a psychological point of view and Yoda has much to say about the, um, the importance of facing fear.
[12:17] Yeah, yeah.
[12:18] Yoda being the sort of wise, the wisest of all the Jedi, the sort of the wisest character in the whole franchise.
[12:24] Yeah, yeah.
[12:25] And he in some ways like really represents, from a mindfulness point of view, really represents this notion of equanimity, which is like balance and not being too attached to either pleasant or unpleasant emotion and this idea that from a place of balance we can choose wise action.
[12:44] Now, to really kind of bring this into real world examples, I mean, if we look at the kind of the idea of emotion, so emotion is really at its heart information.
[12:55] And that information is calling for our attention.
[12:59] But when it's got our attention, it feels either overwhelming or it makes us want to hide and push it away.
[13:08] Yeah.
[13:09] So our natural tendency when we're exposed to unpleasant emotion is one of two things, to become completely overwhelmed and fused with it or to push it away and to avoid it.
[13:21] Now, when that happens, if we take the first example, so we're overwhelmed by it.
[13:25] And let's just say it is fear or anxiety and we're overwhelmed by it.
[13:29] So now my whole experience, it's like I'm sitting in a pool of fear.
[13:35] and it feels inescapable.
[13:37] And so I'm madly swimming, trying to get away from it.
[13:40] I'm using up all of this energy.
[13:42] Now, from the point of view of Star Wars, it's fighting against the force, for example, or fighting against the fear that's sitting here.
[13:52] So it's like a struggle that's here.
[13:54] So when Luke Skywalker refuses to accept that his dad is...
[13:58] Yes.
[13:59] Yeah.
[13:59] Yep.
[14:00] Great.
[14:00] Great example.
[14:01] He's done.
[14:05] Thanks, mate.
[14:08] That's ruined.
[14:11] Yeah.
[14:12] Yeah.
[14:13] So when we're overwhelmed by emotion, when so powerful feelings are here, they do what I would describe as push you around.
[14:22] So when fear is here and it's telling me I can't do this, I don't want to do this, what it's looking for is a quick way out.
[14:30] It's looking for the first way to escape this pain that's here because nobody likes it.
[14:36] And so like even when Yoda talks about, I think he is asked by Luke, is the dark side stronger than the light?
[14:45] And Yoda replies, no, no, no.
[14:48] Quicker, easier, more seductive.
[14:53] And I think that that kind of offers a really great metaphor around the experience of reactivity to emotion.
[15:00] So the issue is not the fear.
[15:04] The issue is not the presence of anxiety or the presence of sadness.
[15:08] It's how we react and respond to it that creates the struggle and the suffering.
[15:14] So you might remember a few episodes ago, I think I was talking about tolerating uncertainty and this idea that what often kind of keeps us really stuck is the struggle against the worry or the fear that's here.
[15:28] Um, when it comes to working with emotion, the most, probably one of the most important parts of moving through emotion is being able to turn towards it and to actively look it in the eye.
[15:42] And so that is obviously the quest that's required of like all the main characters in Star Wars is that it is when they turn to face what they fear that there is an, a pathway through to something more meaningful.
[15:56] And not to react, I guess, because I feel like there's a phrase that's used a lot, which is to give in to your feelings or your emotions, which is like a pathway to the dark side in Star Wars.
[16:11] So you react with anger or with a, I think anger often is the sort of, the one that they don't like.
[16:18] The catalyst.
[16:19] The catalyst.
[16:20] Yeah.
[16:20] Um, as opposed to being, are you saying as opposed to, so reacting to that with anger being the seductive quicker response as opposed to, uh, facing it and being honest with what it is and not, and accepting it from a sort of more from like a mindfulness sort of point of view.
[16:38] Yeah, absolutely.
[16:39] Yeah.
[16:39] Yeah.
[16:39] And so if, if, I mean, anger is one presentation, um, in a lot of circumstances, um,
[16:46] Anger is also very closely linked to anxiety and fear.
[16:51] And, you know, when someone is feeling very fearful, often it can be presented as aggression, anger and violence.
[16:59] So, you know, they're all very related.
[17:01] But if we could come back and stay with this feeling here that is anxiety, give it room and give it space,
[17:08] Then we open up to choice about how we respond to it.
[17:11] So now it's a little bit like if you imagine that anxiety is sitting in the driver's seat and you're a passenger next to it and you know it's here and the anxiety is driving you and it is directing you to the quickest and easiest pathway to get you out of this feeling here.
[17:26] Okay.
[17:27] So it might take you down the pathway of drinking or it might take you down the pathway of reacting poorly to friends and family.
[17:38] It might take you into drug use, gambling, online shopping, any kind of avoidance behaviour.
[17:44] So the feeling drives the action.
[17:47] So the feeling is almost what we would say is narrowing your repertoire of behaviours.
[17:55] So when anxiety is in charge, it's like it reduces our options for behavior because its main incentive is to get out of this pain as quickly as possible.
[18:09] Yeah.
[18:10] Yeah.
[18:10] So what we do when we're looking at acceptance and regulating emotion is that it's as though now I'm going to sit in the driver's seat and I'm going to drive in the direction of my values, but you can sit here alongside with me.
[18:26] I'm not chucking you out of the car.
[18:28] I'm not pushing you away.
[18:29] I'm not denying your existence.
[18:31] I'm opening up to you being a passenger, like a fellow traveler with me on this journey towards where I want to be going.
[18:39] How does that make sense?
[18:42] It makes sense.
[18:43] So Josh, you, a while ago, I mean, what I'm thinking about there is like when you're talking about the reactivity and being quick to anger, there's a scene where Kylo Ren, upon some bad news, gets his lightsaber and completely destroys his, I don't know, call it his office, but it's just a whole lot of buttons.
[18:58] Smashes up his office.
[18:59] Yeah, smashed up his office with his lightsaber, completely destroys it.
[19:03] and just reacts in so much anger.
[19:08] You were talking about a while ago, a few years, a few seasons ago, now you talked about how you reacted in a moment that you wish you had back with so much anger in front of the kids.
[19:18] Yeah, it was like slamming a cupboard really hard.
[19:21] Yeah, and I sort of drew that link just then when you were talking about that similar type of...
[19:29] aggressive outburst towards a wall.
[19:32] Yeah, yeah.
[19:33] Yeah.
[19:33] Yeah, and I think in my own life I've thought a lot, like I really don't want to, obviously don't want to do that in front of the kids and I got to a point where I'm like I can go away and –
[19:45] not do that in like slam a door in front of the kids.
[19:48] Uh, and like, I found myself like escaping to the garage and like smashing something in the garage and going back in, which felt like a better, slightly better cause there was a bit more control there.
[19:57] But now, uh, I think I'm getting better at being able to not react at all in that way.
[20:05] Um, by I, I, I'm trying to work.
[20:09] I think it's a,
[20:11] Well, it's kind of, I think it's probably an admission to myself that this is bloody hard.
[20:17] Yeah.
[20:17] And just taking a few deep breaths, but almost saying to myself, it's like just admitting how hard this is to myself.
[20:27] Yeah, which is.
[20:28] Hard it is.
[20:30] Control you have.
[20:31] Control.
[20:33] That's how Yoda talks.
[20:35] But like that is... Footnotes for a thousand things.
[20:38] Again, Yoda is the head coach of Jedi.
[20:41] But that is absolutely spot on and that is that like if we were again like using this notion of the light and the dark...
[20:49] The light is harder.
[20:50] The light takes longer.
[20:52] The light takes more practice.
[20:54] The light takes more energy and it takes more focus.
[20:58] And the dark, it is seductive.
[21:01] It is easier and it's faster.
[21:04] That's the place of reactivity.
[21:06] So, again, like zooming out within us, we have both.
[21:11] But the light is the pathway, obviously, towards greater values led to behaviours and this kind of more meaningful life.
[21:20] Yeah.
[21:21] But it is absolutely harder.
[21:24] And what it requires is a really great attunement.
[21:28] So for you to be able to acknowledge in this moment, this feels hard, that...
[21:34] He's like mindful awareness, that's noticing my response and noticing the urge to act.
[21:42] Yeah, yeah.
[21:43] It's noticing the urge to act is the most.
[21:45] Exactly.
[21:45] I feel this need to go from.
[21:48] I was talking to a couple of mates of mine about this because they've got a similar thing and it was actually through talking to a couple of mates.
[21:58] It was really freeing to hear that I wasn't alone.
[22:00] Yeah.
[22:01] And they were saying how ashamed they are that they sort of go from zero to 100, like so quickly as a parent.
[22:07] Yeah.
[22:09] And that's like in yelling or whatever it is and how much they don't want to be like that.
[22:15] And then that gave me, I think, just a bit more permission that it was not, I'm not alone.
[22:20] And therefore, yeah, it gave me the awareness to feel the urge to smash something in.
[22:25] Yes.
[22:26] And going, all right, well, just don't smash something.
[22:28] Stop there.
[22:29] Don't do the smashing.
[22:30] And then that gives you a pause.
[22:32] Exactly.
[22:33] To go, to take a breath and go, well, let's...
[22:38] not yeah let's just what do i what can i do differently in this moment yeah yeah and it can literally be the space of a breath yeah even even less i think it's so like it happens in a second but there is space there yeah yeah and that's that's really in some ways what this is all about is that we all have a capacity to like to be the darth vader to be the anakin
[23:02] Within us all is this potential to be totally taken over by our instincts and our urges and our emotions.
[23:10] And the great challenge that we have is to be able to acknowledge them, to turn towards them and then grow the space so we can choose the wise, like what's called the wise action.
[23:21] Mm-hmm.
[23:22] Yeah.
[23:23] And by you naming I'm feeling overwhelmed, that is gaining space.
[23:27] Yeah.
[23:28] And it is like not giving in to the dark side, so to speak.
[23:32] It's acknowledging it.
[23:33] Yeah.
[23:34] Does that make sense?
[23:34] Yes.
[23:35] Yeah.
[23:35] It also makes me think about how we kind of judge other people and how we look at other people.
[23:41] Because obviously in Star Wars it's very like –
[23:44] I was going to say black and white, but it's very dark and light.
[23:47] Like it's, you know, it's very, and they, because it's a film and it's like they make very clear good guys and bad guys.
[23:53] And I think we have a tendency in our real life to paint people with the same brush.
[24:00] Like they do one bad thing or one aggressive thing and then we go, oh, they're...
[24:07] so to speak, on the dark side.
[24:08] Yeah.
[24:09] They're a bad person or that's just how they are.
[24:13] And I think it's so good to remember that there's light and dark in everyone.
[24:17] Absolutely.
[24:17] Because we, and I guess like, you know, there's been so many people have experienced this where they make one mistake or do one thing in a social setting and then they're shunned from the social group.
[24:29] It happens online all the time.
[24:31] But that one instance doesn't represent who they are as a whole.
[24:36] Yeah.
[24:37] Yeah.
[24:37] And in psychology, it can often be represented as what's called the fundamental attribution error.
[24:43] And that is that when someone else makes a mistake, we attribute the error to a fault in their personality or them being a bad person, them being wrong as a whole.
[24:54] But we don't attribute our own mistakes to a fundamental flaw within us.
[24:59] Right.
[25:00] And so, like, the fundamental attribution error is particularly, particularly relevant in experiences of discrimination in minority groups.
[25:08] And I will actually come to talking about this in another episode, but it's really useful to be aware of that fundamental attribution error.
[25:17] So basically we're attributing their error to a fundamental flaw within that person.
[25:22] that they are wrong and bad.
[25:25] But if you can pause long enough to notice again, and I've mentioned this before, that there is a whole human underneath there, then that can open us up to a curiosity about the intention of someone's behaviour, for example.
[25:38] Like a whole human and also, to state the obvious, dealing with a whole range of things that we don't know about.
[25:43] Yes, exactly.
[25:44] Yep.
[25:44] And that we have no idea.
[25:46] For example, let's just say someone arrives late to work and you're in a big office environment or something and they're half an hour late and you're like, bloody jokes.
[25:56] freaking late.
[25:57] And we have no idea that this is not an attribution of his laziness.
[26:02] This is because there's all of these other things happening in his life that we have no idea about.
[26:06] Because Joe is ADHD.
[26:09] Yeah, he could be.
[26:11] Yeah.
[26:11] Yeah.
[26:12] Yeah.
[26:12] We don't know.
[26:13] We don't know what's happened, you know, to make that difficult for that person to arrive.
[26:17] But all we see is the behaviour.
[26:20] And when we see that behaviour, we'll attribute it to a fatal flaw in that person.
[26:25] The one thing I think is different about, as you said, with the dark and lightness of Star Wars is that there's this idea, I think in Star Wars, or at least I took out of it as a kid, that once you do a bad act, that's kind of like you're now on the dark side.
[26:41] You've crossed over and you can't come back.
[26:43] Yes.
[26:43] But to counter that, there's also another message in there, in The Return of the Jedi, that...
[26:52] That once I turned to the dark side, but when Darth Vader essentially seeks love from his son, he's returning and holding an awareness of this other part of him that's always been there.
[27:05] It's still there and he still has access to it.
[27:07] I mean, you're literally seeing the human behind.
[27:10] Exactly.
[27:10] Yeah.
[27:11] Yeah.
[27:12] So I think there is this kind of core message in here around this sense of wholeness and the idea that it's about kind of integrating all parts of our experience and really being very attuned to that.
[27:25] Now, there are lots of ways, and I will often speak about mindfulness as one way in which we can really begin to tune in there.
[27:34] Having an awareness of the body is particularly important.
[27:39] And, you know, if you were to look at the idea of the force, it's, you know, feel the force within you.
[27:45] Now, from a psychological perspective, feel the sensations in the body.
[27:50] Feel this emotion as it's showing up in this moment.
[27:54] What is this emotion telling us?
[27:56] So it's almost as though if this sensation of fear had words, what would the fear be telling you?
[28:05] So we really want to be able to bring a curious mind to what is the information that this sensation is bringing.
[28:11] However, if we're not attuned to the body, if we deny, avoid, protect awareness in the body, we miss out on an enormous amount of information.
[28:26] And so this invitation here is how can I practice, how can I tune in more to like a bodily awareness?
[28:34] Because the body holds the emotions as much, if not more, than the mind does.
[28:40] That's why when they're Jedis alike, when you think about Luke Skywalker at the start of Return of the Jedi, he's doing his Jedi training with Yoda and he's trying very hard to – I can't remember what task he's trying to perform, but he's just so clouded with thoughts of needing to – Help his friends.
[28:57] Yeah, help his friends that he just can't focus.
[29:00] He's not present at all.
[29:02] And Yoda essentially calls him out on that because he's not present.
[29:07] Yeah.
[29:08] Yeah.
[29:09] And not paying attention to his feelings.
[29:12] Well, not paying attention to what's happening for him inside.
[29:14] Yeah, exactly.
[29:15] And in some ways, it's about kind of slowing down enough to declutter from all the stuff that the mind is saying and to be able to notice what's here.
[29:25] Mm-hmm.
[29:26] Sometimes, like, you know, my fear is that when I talk about this, it can feel very, like, intangible, what I'm saying here.
[29:32] And I want to give an example.
[29:33] I'm going to give two examples that we might practice, if you guys are willing, about how to sense into the body and how we notice resistance and how we notice pushing away.
[29:46] And so what I might invite you to do, and if like,
[29:51] If you get an opportunity when you listen to this and you're like driving or walking or something and not sitting, then please, please don't do it now.
[29:58] Do this later.
[29:59] Yeah.
[29:59] Okay.
[30:00] But if you guys are willing, I'm going to invite you to close your eyes.
[30:03] And this is going to sound like a weird invitation, but I'm just going to invite you just to lean back into your chair and to notice your back against the chair.
[30:15] And now I want you to bring an attitude of no to the sensations at the back against the chair.
[30:25] No?
[30:26] What do you mean?
[30:28] Yeah, I'll explain it.
[30:29] Okay, great.
[30:31] So no to these sensations, no to my back touching the chair, no, no, I don't want this, no.
[30:42] No.
[30:46] no to the sensations of the back against the chair.
[30:50] Now taking a deeper breath in and a longer breath out.
[30:56] And now I'm going to invite you to bring a different attitude to the sensations of the back against the chair.
[31:00] I'm going to invite you to say yes.
[31:03] Yes to these sensations.
[31:07] Yes to the back against the chair.
[31:10] Yes.
[31:15] Yes, letting them be here.
[31:16] Okay, and then whenever you're ready, coming back into the room.
[31:24] Are we doing a maybe round or just yes and no?
[31:29] So I'm curious, what did you notice?
[31:33] Oh, a spike in anxiety when you're saying no.
[31:36] Yeah, right.
[31:37] I felt so anxious and uneasy.
[31:38] Really?
[31:39] Yeah.
[31:39] Yeah.
[31:40] I hated it.
[31:41] Yeah, that's so interesting.
[31:42] I really hated it.
[31:44] And then what happened when you said yes?
[31:46] Yeah, I wish I'd just said yes all along because I felt like I hadn't cleared out that anxious energy.
[31:54] Yeah.
[31:54] But generally, a kind of relaxed calmness.
[31:59] Mm-hmm.
[31:59] Okay.
[32:00] Yeah.
[32:01] Yeah, really interesting.
[32:01] I want to come back to that.
[32:02] What did you both notice?
[32:04] No, it didn't do too much for me either.
[32:06] But yes, made me feel very sleepy straight away.
[32:09] Uh-huh.
[32:10] Yeah, okay.
[32:10] I was sleepy too, actually.
[32:11] Yeah.
[32:12] Yeah, I mean... You didn't sleep last night.
[32:14] Yeah, it could be bad.
[32:15] No, it was uncomfortable.
[32:17] It was like, oh, this doesn't feel right.
[32:19] Like something felt off about it.
[32:22] But then, yes, felt very, almost felt like,
[32:26] like comforting or belonging or welcoming.
[32:29] Yeah.
[32:30] Yeah.
[32:31] Welcoming is really interesting is the word there.
[32:33] Yeah.
[32:33] Like that's really important.
[32:35] So like this particular exercise is taken from the work of Tara Brack and also Robin Walser and a couple of other ACT therapists.
[32:43] But it's bringing attention to what happens when we don't want our sensations and when we don't want our feelings and,
[32:52] So when we have the back against the chair and we're bringing this word no, no, I don't like this.
[32:57] I don't want this.
[32:58] What happens is the body contracts and the body tenses up against this sensation here.
[33:04] Is that kind of making sense?
[33:05] I had this exact experience last night.
[33:09] I had to say 10 seconds ago.
[33:10] LAUGHTER
[33:15] And this bird walked in, got me to close my eyes and lean into the chair and say yes and no.
[33:21] It's fucking weird.
[33:24] No, I am.
[33:26] So I, a week ago, don't want to make it about this, but it sprained my ankle.
[33:31] You broke your ankle.
[33:33] Well, I just found out yesterday that I got like an ultrasound, an x-ray and found out that it's like fractured.
[33:38] And now I'm like, I'm going to have to put it in like a moon boot and blah, blah, blah.
[33:42] hearing this now, I was saying no to the injury.
[33:47] And I was like, I wasn't in pain or anything like that.
[33:51] It was more just no to my situation.
[33:54] Yes, yeah.
[33:55] And I was really, my anxiety was really high.
[34:01] And I just felt almost like a deep sadness that then carried over even into this morning.
[34:09] And so what happened?
[34:11] What do you think happens when you say yes?
[34:17] Yeah, well, it feels like a relief, to be honest, like saying yes to it.
[34:23] It was weird because before I got told it was like a break and I thought it was just like a sprain or a ligament thing, I was like, oh, well, I guess I can still walk around.
[34:33] But now I'm like, oh, I can't really walk around.
[34:34] I shouldn't have been walking around.
[34:37] It's like annoyed at myself, annoyed at past me, and then future me, I'm annoyed at the situation.
[34:43] So if I had have said yes and if I am saying yes,
[34:46] It feels much more relaxing, I think.
[34:50] And I'm not putting as much, it doesn't feel like as much pressure on myself or I don't know if that's the right wording.
[34:58] But yeah, it feels obviously better to say yes.
[35:02] Yeah.
[35:03] In my body.
[35:04] Logically, like intellectually, it doesn't change anything.
[35:07] But the body, what you're talking about, the body feeling changes.
[35:09] Yeah.
[35:10] Yeah.
[35:11] Yeah.
[35:12] Like I want to be really clear when we're talking about this is what we're talking about is acceptance.
[35:16] Acceptance of what's here.
[35:18] In order to accept what's here, we have to be tuned in to what's here also.
[35:20] So there's kind of two key components here together.
[35:23] When we're talking about acceptance, we're not talking about liking the situation.
[35:27] So, for example, the invitation is not to like that you've broken your ankle.
[35:31] And the invitation is to say yes and to welcome, to be open to what is already here.
[35:38] Because it's already here.
[35:39] So we can't get rid of it.
[35:41] But our natural response when we have pain of any kind, whether that's physical or psychological, is to want to get rid of it and to not want it and to not like it.
[35:49] And so metaphorically, it's like when you put your back against the chair and you say no to the sensations, it actually creates more suffering.
[35:58] It creates more distress for us.
[36:01] It creates more anxiety.
[36:03] It creates more reactivity, which is really important.
[36:07] So when you put your back against the chair and you say, you're saying yes, it's like the body lets go.
[36:13] It's not saying yes, that it's okay, that this particular thing has happened.
[36:18] It's not saying yes to someone else's bad behaviour, but it's saying yes to this pain that is already here.
[36:25] And it's giving it permission and space to be here so that with this more spaciousness, you can then choose how you want to show up to the next moment.
[36:35] Hmm.
[36:35] I can think of so many examples of my morning this morning where I could have said yes.
[36:40] The smallest, most trivial things, but I feel like they do add up.
[36:43] Like such trivial things like we didn't have enough wraps for the kids' lunch.
[36:47] Traffic was bad.
[36:48] I forgot something that I probably should have brought.
[36:51] Like little things where you go, no, as soon as you think about it.
[36:55] And I just wonder the cumulative effect of all of them throughout the day.
[36:58] Yeah, absolutely.
[36:58] Before we even get into the office or before we even get to school or whatever it is.
[37:01] Yeah.
[37:01] And do you think like it's, I mean, this feels like an obvious yes to this question, but if you're already in a place of, like, if you're already anxious about something or life is already hard or you're struggling with something in some way, then a new thing comes along, like haven't got enough raps, hurt your ankle, whatever it is.
[37:21] It's harder to accept that.
[37:22] Absolutely.
[37:23] If you're already in a place of struggle.
[37:26] You've got to be in the habit of saying yes to accepting.
[37:29] I find that in the context of using a phone to escape, I think,
[37:38] not even a negative experience, but a potential negative experience.
[37:41] Like I've noticed that when parenting, and if I'm continually looking at my phone to like try and get an endorphin hit or whatever the chemical is that I'm getting from like looking on YouTube or social media or something like that, I am kind of denying that.
[38:00] whether it could just be boredom because like parenting can be pretty boring sometimes or the negativity that if the kids are in a bad mood, if I'm trying to push that away by seeking this, my reaction to the boredom or the bad mood is so much worse and my ability to cope with that is so much worse.
[38:17] Absolutely.
[38:18] My parenting is so much worse.
[38:19] But if I just put it away and stop trying to avoid it and just lean into it and say this is it, then...
[38:26] all the negativity of it gets reduced by so much and then it's actually not that boring and it's not that negative what I'm going through and there's joy and excitement to be found in what I deem to be boring or negative due to trying to avoid it.
[38:40] Does that make sense?
[38:40] Like a circular loop that fulfills itself?
[38:42] It's really spot on.
[38:43] And like a metaphor that I would often use, it's a very commonly used metaphor in ACT and that is the idea of when it comes to our uncomfortable emotions, it's like pushing a beach ball under the water.
[38:54] And so you say you're at the beach and you're wanting to hang out with your friends, but this, this like really annoying thing is here and you don't want to face it.
[39:01] So you push it underwater.
[39:02] Now you can see all of your friends and you can kind of interact.
[39:05] Um, but at some point you're going to get really tired and it's just going to pop up and it pops up so, um, uncontrollably.
[39:14] And that is like a metaphor for this kind of reactivity.
[39:17] So you push it away and it comes out as reactivity.
[39:21] Oh, wow.
[39:22] Yeah.
[39:23] And so this is like this is a radically different approach, right?
[39:26] So it's actually tuning in and turning towards this pain that's here and opening up to it.
[39:34] Now, like for people who have a history of trauma, this is very hard.
[39:38] And, you know, just as a bit of a disclaimer here, like if this is your pathway or this is your journey so far, then I actively encourage you to have some support in doing this work because it's really hard.
[39:50] Because turning towards our suffering is incredibly painful.
[39:55] But the more that we deny it, the more reactive we will be.
[40:00] Again, using the dark side, the more vulnerable we are to that, to kind of being pushed and pulled around by these urges that we have.
[40:09] And the urges for control, power and escape.
[40:14] Does that kind of... Yeah.
[40:15] Yeah.
[40:16] Yeah.
[40:16] Okay.
[40:17] So that's one kind of, I guess, practice just to notice in your body, how is my body responding to these unpleasant experiences?
[40:28] I remember like years ago writing, because I've been writing this TV show and I remember, and it's been going for years now, like developing this show, but like as my side gig outside of the podcast, I was writing a TV show.
[40:42] And I remember having like,
[40:45] like an epiphany one day about like a comparison of like not my show to Star Wars in general, but like the character in it to like something about Star Wars.
[40:55] And I'm pretty sure I wrote it in my journal, like an app.
[41:02] I'll just search Star Wars.
[41:05] Okay.
[41:07] Bit of context.
[41:08] The show at the time when I was writing it, the show was called Sausages.
[41:16] And I play like Ryan.
[41:19] I play like a version of myself in it.
[41:22] So let me just read what I wrote.
[41:23] So I wrote this on the 18th of May, 2022.
[41:28] I had a good brainstorm yesterday, RE Sausages.
[41:31] I realized that it's about ego.
[41:34] which I knew, of course, but starting to think about villains.
[41:38] Who is the villain of the series?
[41:39] Who is standing in the way of Ryan?
[41:42] There isn't really an obvious person except Ryan's ego.
[41:47] Then I started thinking about Star Wars.
[41:50] Star Wars is about ego!
[41:52] Darth Vader is the result of someone being defeated by their ego.
[41:58] And that didn't end well, did it?
[42:02] So, in Sausages, Ryan is Luke.
[42:05] Ambitious, bright-eyed and wanting to do the right thing and join the rebellion and fight for what's right.
[42:12] but he's constantly tempted by the dark side of his own ego, fame, personal praise, power, wealth, etc.
[42:19] These are the things that are tempting, but are not the things he claims to want.
[42:23] In Star Wars, the dark side of the Force is ego.
[42:26] Luke must resist the power of the dark side to fulfil his potential.
[42:31] As a young man, the temptations are powerful.
[42:34] Power, control, praise, adulation, wealth.
[42:37] These are all desires of ego, but as we know, these things do not make a life.
[42:42] They do not make us happy.
[42:43] Social connection, community, horizontal relationships, family, teamwork, purpose...
[42:49] Purpose towards the greater good of others outside of oneself.
[42:53] Those values are represented by the rebellion in Star Wars.
[42:56] And then I finished.
[42:57] I love them.
[42:58] So good.
[42:59] That is so great.
[43:00] It's absolutely spot on.
[43:02] And there's so many different ways in which we can talk about ego, but we can also replace that with painful emotions as well or fears or emotions.
[43:12] urges even.
[43:14] And like to take it directly to Star Wars, the scene in which Luke is on Dagobah with Yoda and he has to go into the cave.
[43:24] Is Dagobah a planet?
[43:25] Yeah.
[43:26] Where Yoda lives?
[43:27] Is that where?
[43:28] Dagobah's system.
[43:28] Oh, Dagobah's system?
[43:29] Yeah.
[43:30] It's a system of planets, yeah.
[43:32] Yeah.
[43:32] Wherever Yoda lives.
[43:34] He does a training camp or something with Yoda.
[43:36] Yeah.
[43:37] Yeah.
[43:37] And Yoda tells him he must go into the cave.
[43:40] Yeah.
[43:40] And I think the quote is something along the lines of, he said, do I have to take anything?
[43:43] And he says, you go with what you already have, basically.
[43:46] And then when he goes into the cave, he's faced with, basically he's faced with Darth Vader, which is a projection of his fears.
[43:53] And he kills Darth Vader.
[43:54] And when the helmet falls off, it's Luke's face that appears in the scene.
[43:59] Yeah.
[44:01] And so like what that's representing in, and again, there are many interpretations of this, but it's that we need to face what we deeply fear in order to overcome our fears in some ways.
[44:12] Yeah.
[44:13] And so we need to turn towards all of the pain and struggle that we might be working very hard to avoid.
[44:21] And that is also continuing to push us around and direct our behaviour.
[44:25] Is this exposure therapy-ish?
[44:27] Yes, exactly.
[44:29] And if you look at, and I know Maria has spoken about this, Maria Roberto has spoken about this too, is like the evidence base for the treatment of anxiety is not calming the body, it's exposure.
[44:42] And that we have to learn how to be able to stay with the feeling and to know that we can be okay to then kind of move through it.
[44:52] You know, the evidence is very clear.
[44:54] There's very little point.
[44:55] And this is the case in my therapy room too, is that, you know, all the soothing and calming exercises are great, but we're not addressing the struggle that's here.
[45:07] We're just trying to soothe it.
[45:10] But in the long term, that doesn't have a great outcome.
[45:13] And so this, you know, again, the metaphor of Star Wars here is that
[45:17] well, at least one of them is the requirement, like this deep requirement to turn towards that which we fear and to not be overwhelmed by it.
[45:28] If we're overwhelmed by it, then we move into reactivity.
[45:33] How is that sitting?
[45:34] Great.
[45:35] Really good.
[45:36] Yeah?
[45:37] Okay.
[45:37] So it has a lot of referencing to emotion regulation, how we need to be able to regulate and to stay with the pain that's here.
[45:47] There's that component.
[45:49] There is also another very well discussed theoretical approach to therapy that has real relevance to Star Wars, and that's what's called the Hero's Journey.
[46:00] Have you guys heard of the Hero's Journey?
[46:02] Oh, yeah.
[46:02] Yeah.
[46:03] Do you want to tell me your...
[46:04] Well, I don't know it deeply, but it's...
[46:08] Originally, Hero's Journey was created by Joseph Campbell, and it's now... And actually, Star Wars is sort of the... Well, they say that the Hero's Journey is a story, a journey made by a hero, which you can basically line up with every single story, every film, television show, fable, nursery rhyme.
[46:30] Every...
[46:31] Essentially...
[46:33] This is what I know of it.
[46:34] If we as humans recognise something as a story, it probably lines up with the hero's journey.
[46:40] Yeah.
[46:41] Yeah, so, I mean, it's extraordinarily relevant within, like, the film and television industry and in book writing, in storytelling in general, but also it's used therapeutically, which I think is really interesting.
[46:52] And so, in essence, Joseph Campbell wrote this text in 1949 and it was –
[46:59] around the hero's journey or what he termed monomyth, which is your story of yourself, the myth of your story.
[47:06] And he suggested that there are several key stages that represent the process of personal growth and self-discovery and that these processes are fairly universal.
[47:20] And that there are something like 17 of them.
[47:23] They have been kind of...
[47:24] reduced down over time.
[47:25] And so I'm just going to read through some of these major key milestones.
[47:30] And the reason that this has relevance, obviously, to Star Wars is that the Star Wars series or even just one individual movie maps onto this incredibly well in the same way that things like Harry Potter, Lord of the Rings.
[47:45] Fourth wing?
[47:46] Yes, probably.
[47:47] What's that?
[47:48] Yes.
[47:49] Yes.
[47:50] I have read it.
[47:51] A lot of people are reading at the moment.
[47:52] Yeah.
[47:52] Oh, Fourth Wing.
[47:53] Yeah.
[47:54] Show that to the Fourth Wing people.
[47:56] Awesome name drop.
[48:01] Yeah.
[48:01] So, I mean, it's very obvious in these big blockbuster movies, but it's also going to have extreme relevance for any other story.
[48:07] But in essence, there's an order in which we go through a journey.
[48:11] And so the general order is that...
[48:15] A hero's life begins at the start living fairly ordinarily.
[48:19] So they're kind of going through the motions, just living their life, not expecting anything in particular to happen.
[48:25] And then there's a call to adventure.
[48:27] So some sort of like challenge or something that is they're invited to do something in some way.
[48:33] So obviously if we take Luke, you know, he's, um, he's invited on this journey towards challenging the empire, I suppose.
[48:41] Yep.
[48:42] But with that call, there's also this ambivalence or what's called a refusal of the call.
[48:46] So we don't want to change the status quo.
[48:49] We want to stay where we are.
[48:51] We don't want to go on this very big, likely painful journey, basically.
[48:56] And there's a lot of fear that sits in that refusal, basically, that I don't want to go there, okay?
[49:02] Okay.
[49:03] Then what often happens with that refusal, and if we think about this from a psychological point of view, it's when we're faced with a challenge and we move into denial and avoidance.
[49:12] So I don't want to go there.
[49:13] This is too painful.
[49:13] This is too hard.
[49:14] I don't, I want things to go back to how they were.
[49:16] I want, I don't want to face that.
[49:20] But then what arrives and like in the Star Wars movie is a mentor.
[49:27] or some sort of support system.
[49:29] And this mentor is like a guide that is here to walk along this journey with you through this process.
[49:35] Then there's the crossing of the threshold.
[49:37] So yes, I'm now embarking on this journey, okay?
[49:41] We then get tested, then we meet allies and we face enemies.
[49:45] And then there's what's called the approach to the inmost cave, which is like metaphorically also like Luke going into the cave even.
[49:55] But it's also this deep confrontation of the pain or the struggle that's here.
[50:01] Then there's obviously going through the conflict or the ordeal.
[50:03] And then finally we emerge with some kind of reward or some sort of sense of pride, some sort of achievement of some kind of outcome.
[50:11] Could be the, I don't know, explosion of the Death Star, for example.
[50:14] Like that would be like the reward there.
[50:17] And then we have the road back.
[50:19] So we're returning back to the place that we came from with this new news, this new kind of experience.
[50:27] Um, and then we return with, with kind of information and learning basically.
[50:33] Yeah.
[50:33] Now.
[50:35] In no way with mapping a hero's journey onto our own experience as individuals is it intended to trivialise the true trauma that we might experience in life.
[50:46] However, when we step back and we can view our life as though we are the hero on the journey, it can change the lens with which we're viewing our struggles.
[50:59] So for example, let's just say that you've faced grief and here is immense and deep pain.
[51:11] And this we could see as like this real call here to make meaning of this loss.
[51:22] Yeah, that's really interesting.
[51:24] I mean, I did experience something kind of similar, which is sort of like a unique situation because not everyone writes a show about themselves or their life or any sort of thing.
[51:34] But I guess journaling, you could maybe compare.
[51:38] But I went through this really interesting experience where originally when I was writing this show...
[51:44] It was very, very directly about an experience that Jam and I went through, which was like a really, really hard, challenging time in our relationship.
[51:55] And then I was sort of, with her permission, of course, and encouragement, I took that experience and I was then writing about it, you know, turning it into a show.
[52:03] From having to write myself and Jam and us as a couple, having to write us as characters, I was able to almost like figure stuff out because I was looking at myself as a character.
[52:21] Yeah.
[52:21] Yeah.
[52:23] And I think like, I mean, that's such a great example, but I think again, psychologically what that represents is this idea of being able to take a bird's eye view of my experience, a bird's eye view of this life that's here and this journey that I've been on rather than what we will very naturally have, which is like a snake eyed view.
[52:41] Like I'm in it and I am overwhelmed by all of these emotions, all these situations, the circumstances that are here.
[52:48] But if we can zoom out and hold what's kind of really more like this meta-awareness and see this as a story, that I'm in this story here and that what's this in service of?
[53:01] So this challenge and adversity that's here...
[53:05] It's on the pathway to something that could be really meaningful for me, but it requires us to change the lens through which we're looking at the experience.
[53:14] And also, really significantly, we're opening up to making meaning.
[53:19] And there's some really interesting research that talks about the impact of using the hero's journey to make meaning, and that the more meaning we can make of our experience,
[53:31] The more buffering that is for stress and well-being, the more likely it is that we can move into something like post-traumatic growth rather than staying stuck in a trauma response.
[53:42] So meaning making is so integral to being able to feel hopeful, for example, and to continue you on this pathway and along this journey.
[53:55] It's certainly not to say that we only face one obstacle.
[53:58] Like obviously in Star Wars, for example, there is like
[54:02] In each individual one, there's like one major challenge and obstacle.
[54:05] And then we reach this place where we're great and happy again.
[54:08] That's not life.
[54:09] But it's more if you zoom out and we have a look, what's this pathway that I'm on?
[54:13] What's this journey that I'm on?
[54:15] How do I make meaning of all of these things that are happening?
[54:19] That the more meaning we have, the more purpose and the more that is that it kind of inspires us to keep going.
[54:26] Yeah.
[54:28] So sometimes like something useful to like questions to ponder, I think, you know, if we were to look at our current life experience is like, first of all, just to notice what stage of the journey am I at?
[54:39] Am I right in the midst of this struggle?
[54:41] Yeah.
[54:42] Maybe I've made it out of a struggle and I'm trying to understand what this has meant for my sense of identity, my sense of connection to others, my learning.
[54:51] So kind of really being able to check in, like, where am I at on this journey?
[54:55] Like, that's a really good starting point.
[54:57] You often hear people talk about in a negative way that people have like main character syndrome or something like that.
[55:03] Yeah.
[55:03] But maybe there's actual benefit to it.
[55:05] Positive version of it.
[55:06] Yeah.
[55:06] Yeah.
[55:06] Yeah, I've often actually thought about that, I must say, because we are our own main characters.
[55:11] It's impossible to be anything else.
[55:14] Yeah, this is our experience.
[55:15] Talking about being selfish and narcissistic in the context of a social setting is obviously not what I'm referring to here, but the fact that this is me in my story, in my journey, I have the power to influence and impact those around me, but in essence I can only come back to this sense of myself here.
[55:34] Yeah, it might be interesting too, and I'm sure you've got links to The Hero's Journey, but there was Dan Harmon who created Community and Rick and Morty and a bunch of stuff.
[55:45] He actually created a much more simplified version of The Hero's Journey because the actual Joseph Campbell's Hero's Journey is quite complicated and big, but he's really boiled it down and every Rick and Morty episode is mapped to The Hero's Journey.
[55:59] but I'll find the link, but there's a full, really simple, and it might be an interesting exercise to map it to your own life.
[56:06] Yeah, that would be great.
[56:07] I want to try that actually.
[56:08] That would be great.
[56:09] Last year was a lot happened to me last year, like a lot.
[56:14] Some were trivial, some were not.
[56:17] But they all piled up to make me look at myself as a character going, well, what's happened to this person?
[56:22] Small things like all of a sudden I couldn't see properly I needed glasses.
[56:27] Just out of nowhere, age 44, bang, you can't see glasses.
[56:31] I didn't feel like myself at all wearing glasses.
[56:34] And then soon after that I remember seeing my psychologist, Anita, who I've spoken about a bit and I've written about a lot in my books.
[56:46] about autism in our family and being a parent of a neurodivergent child.
[56:54] And I saw, she described to me that I was in the in the depression stage of grief, which was a huge thing to be told for so many reasons, which I will come back to.
[57:07] Soon after that, the internet really hated me for, it was about four days in the end, but that was,
[57:15] And that happened and then soon after that I got a diagnosis of ADHD.
[57:21] So many life-changing things happened in a very small stretch of time and I did find myself looking at myself as if like, yeah, I was a movie character and that's one of the ways I was able to sort of
[57:33] try and cope with that.
[57:34] But I remember on the topic of mentors and mentors being there at the right time to guide us through, I remember seeing Anita, my psychologist, and I was pretty low and struggling at that time.
[57:50] I remember saying to her, I don't – the things that I love doing, I don't love anymore.
[57:58] I'm dragging – like we – there was a show that we did at the Palais.
[58:05] A live show.
[58:06] A live show we did, which if you look at it, like it should be the highlight of one of the most – because doing the live show is one of the funnest things I've ever done in my entire life.
[58:15] And we did it over the course of six months, but I think it was the last night we did it and it was –
[58:20] 3,000 people there and it was an incredible show.
[58:24] I guess one of the best we performed it.
[58:26] But I remember standing on stage and thinking, I have no joy.
[58:30] I am not enjoying nothing.
[58:32] I'm not feeling any joy here.
[58:34] This is bringing me no happiness.
[58:37] This is so unlike me.
[58:38] I've never felt this ever before.
[58:40] And one of the things, the other things I do that I just love is running.
[58:43] And I found myself getting to the track and doing a walk and sitting there going, I don't want to do this.
[58:48] This is not doing anything for me.
[58:49] I've just, there is...
[58:51] So I was a little bit panicked by what all that meant.
[58:53] And I spoke to my psychologist, Anita, and she said, you are in the depression stage of grief.
[59:00] And that was a huge moment, like as a mentor appearing and giving you the guidance that you need.
[59:06] and saying that the next stage after depression is acceptance.
[59:09] So this is not who you are.
[59:11] You're not stuck here forever.
[59:12] You move through the stages.
[59:15] And the understanding that the next step was acceptance was just, I remember coming in here the day after that, and it was like a huge weight had been lifted because through the help of a mentor, I just had some guidance that I desperately needed at that point in my life, desperately.
[59:34] Yeah.
[59:35] That's so important.
[59:37] I'm also curious, if you don't mind, when she named that you're experiencing depression, what was that like of you?
[59:44] Two very conflicting thoughts.
[59:46] The first one was a line that I have said.
[59:53] I don't know how many times because it was part of my talk as a Resilience Project was just acknowledging the fact that I'd never really experienced any mental health because I didn't want to say it.
[1:00:03] I wanted people to know that this is coming from someone who is fascinated with the research, but I'm not saying this isn't a lived experience thing.
[1:00:09] I've never had any issues with mental health.
[1:00:12] So when she said that, I went, oh, no, that's not me.
[1:00:14] I don't – that's definitely not me.
[1:00:16] That's not my story.
[1:00:17] I don't – I've been very lucky the whole time.
[1:00:19] It's annoying you're going to have to change one of the slides.
[1:00:22] Yeah, exactly.
[1:00:23] Yeah, not true.
[1:00:24] That's easy.
[1:00:25] And, but then also, I think it was just a huge, huge sense of relief that like, oh yeah, this is, it instantly made so much sense.
[1:00:35] Yeah.
[1:00:36] Like what we were going through as a family with the diagnosis that I've spoken about, it was at the toughest stage it had probably been.
[1:00:45] And it just made sense that that's where I would be.
[1:00:48] And it was.
[1:00:52] It was great to be able to tell people that's where I was because I was worried.
[1:00:56] In fact, Penny had said to me a couple of times, you are not, you're not, like, this is not the same.
[1:01:02] You've nine years, you've been a certain person.
[1:01:04] All of a sudden, after nine years, you're not that person anymore.
[1:01:08] And to be able to explain that's what it was.
[1:01:10] to her and to other people was really quite profound in moving.
[1:01:16] It actually helped me getting closer towards acceptance.
[1:01:18] Yeah, and I think that that is, like that stands out to me as so significant, like this, again, the denial of this being part of my story.
[1:01:26] I don't want this identity to me.
[1:01:29] that I might experience depressive symptoms or I might experience depression.
[1:01:33] I don't want it.
[1:01:34] And I cannot turn myself to face it because that would feel too disarming.
[1:01:39] Like it would feel too disorienting almost to integrate this part of my experience into my understanding of myself.
[1:01:47] But then when you label it and when you name it and you can see it, yeah, like this is really here.
[1:01:54] Like that's actually this movement towards acceptance.
[1:01:58] And particularly being told by Anita, someone you know, like an expert who you trust and like, like I feel like that, that would be powerful if I was in your position rather than just, you know, reading about it and going, oh, maybe that's me.
[1:02:15] But to have it almost confirmed or validated by someone you trust, a mentor.
[1:02:20] I mean, therapeutically, a factor in change is this sense that my pain is being witnessed and it's being acknowledged and labelled.
[1:02:27] And so for you to have someone to say, look, I can see you're really deep in the struggle here and like, I can't change it, but I will be here with you as you do, as we walk this together.
[1:02:37] So, you know, that's really, really important.
[1:02:40] There is like an exercise that perhaps we could do that is like really around acceptance and acknowledgement of pain.
[1:02:48] I think I've said this in a previous episode, but the way that I like to think about pain is a little bit like if you've got a pebble inside an unblown up balloon, right?
[1:02:57] And you are the balloon.
[1:02:59] and the pebble is your pain, right?
[1:03:02] It feels when we're in like the depths of it, that it is overtaking my entire experience and that in that place, all you want to do is deny it and or to shut down.
[1:03:15] So like the depressive symptoms, for example, of
[1:03:19] almost like immobilizing, freezing, lack of interest in enjoyment in previously enjoyable activities.
[1:03:26] There is a slowing down and a disconnection and numbing that happens from that space.
[1:03:31] So in that place, there is this pebble here in this unblown up balloon.
[1:03:34] And the way that I talk about acceptance often with my clients is that acceptance is not about
[1:03:42] chucking the balloon away because we chuck ourselves away in the process, right?
[1:03:45] And we chuck away all the things that are so deeply important to us in the process.
[1:03:49] Okay?
[1:03:50] So instead, we blow up the balloon.
[1:03:53] So we, and we can use this as a metaphor in terms of how we experience sensations in the body also.
[1:03:58] The idea is that we breathe into the balloon and the balloon blows up around the pebble.
[1:04:04] So now the pain is still here, but I have given it room and I've given it space.
[1:04:10] And I recognize that I am not my pain.
[1:04:13] It is just one part of my experience.
[1:04:16] And so physiologically, what we're looking at is like even in the body, imagining that I'm making room for this pain that is here.
[1:04:24] I'm making space for it to be here because let me tell you it's already here.
[1:04:29] And so that metaphor of like blowing up the balloon around the pebble is an acknowledgement and a movement towards acceptance.
[1:04:37] I'm accepting that it's here and at the same time I can coexist with it and I can still with all this spaciousness here, go and choose things that I want to do.
[1:04:45] How does that make sense?
[1:04:48] Great.
[1:04:48] Yeah, absolutely.
[1:04:51] So the hero's journey is an invitation to really check in with where you are right now.
[1:04:58] I think also really importantly in there, and Star Wars wouldn't exist if it was not for the presence of Yoda and Obi-Wan Kenobi and the mentors that were in there.
[1:05:09] But George Lucas has openly said that he based Star Wars on the hero's journey.
[1:05:13] Yeah, he has.
[1:05:14] And he talks about the importance of having hope and that these journeys that we're all on almost sit on a foundation of hopefulness that we can withstand this pain forever.
[1:05:29] And that we can find meaning and that we can keep going.
[1:05:33] And like that is what we all yearn for is a sense of like a hopefulness for a better future.
[1:05:39] But in order to do that, like we've spoken about in my previous episode too, like social connection is so vital.
[1:05:46] And so like when you're in the struggle, when you're in the fight, who is on your side?
[1:05:50] Yeah.
[1:05:51] Now, for some people, that might genuinely be their therapist.
[1:05:54] Like that's your mentor.
[1:05:56] There is your person there walking side by side with you, you know, in this struggle.
[1:06:01] It might be a parent.
[1:06:02] It could be a partner.
[1:06:03] It could be a sibling or a friend.
[1:06:05] But this journey cannot be undertaken on your own.
[1:06:09] Like it just it just can't.
[1:06:11] I feel like that's so, it's so important because often, like if I'm in, like last night when I was like, you know, really going through it, like Jan was there and she's trying to, but I just want, I just didn't want it.
[1:06:28] I just wanted to like be by myself, even though I know logically that's not the right thing.
[1:06:33] But because I was just, I just didn't, I don't know why that was, but I didn't want that.
[1:06:40] I think, you know, when we're really struggling, I mean, we've spoken about this quite a lot and many other podcasts do as well, and that is that when we're suffering particularly from depression, for example, and feel like we're in despair, that it brings with it an urge to withdraw and to disconnect and to stay away and to hide, and that it takes enormous courage to be open to like connection with somebody else.
[1:07:08] But like in my experience, both in therapy and in my personal life, if you can shift your feet even to a moment of taking in the good of other people,
[1:07:23] That is extremely inspiring and extremely buffering to help you keep going on this journey.
[1:07:30] Look, I know in my personal life that there there have been in the last three years, a lack a significant amount of unexpected
[1:07:42] adversity and that there is not one moment that goes by that I cannot recognise the profound and lasting impact of the connections I have with the people in my life.
[1:07:57] And that if it wasn't for them being there, there's just no way I would be able to write a book, to be here with you, to be working.
[1:08:07] And, you know, if there's in all of this, like if we think about this hero's journey...
[1:08:12] It has to be whilst walking alongside other people who are also on their journey at the same time.
[1:08:18] So I just, you know, here is this invitation just to notice when you're in the struggle, what would be one small movement towards opening up to connection?
[1:08:28] Even if it's something that you just dread doing, what would be one small action?
[1:08:35] I think it's in, I don't know which one it is.
[1:08:38] in the later franchise and Luke is off in some sort of reclusive mountaintop.
[1:08:43] Mm-hmm.
[1:08:44] Yep.
[1:08:44] Yeah.
[1:08:45] And he refuses the call, right?
[1:08:47] Yep.
[1:08:47] He refuses the call from Ray because he failed the first time.
[1:08:52] He's humiliated.
[1:08:53] He failed.
[1:08:54] He feels shame and he also feels hopelessness that I tried and my apprentice turned into Kylo Ren.
[1:09:03] Kylo Ren.
[1:09:05] therefore what's the point in continuing on?
[1:09:09] And so he refused the call and continued to be a recluse for a period of time until what happened then?
[1:09:15] I can't remember.
[1:09:16] Somehow convinced him.
[1:09:18] And Yoda.
[1:09:20] Yes, yeah.
[1:09:21] The old wise mentor.
[1:09:23] Yeah.
[1:09:23] His mentor.
[1:09:24] Yes, so his mentor arrives.
[1:09:26] His mentor arrives and convinces him to get up off his backside and help.
[1:09:31] Yes.
[1:09:31] Drop the biggest meadow of all time.
[1:09:33] There's a massive meditation to bring it through.
[1:09:37] It was only his project, Link, but his meditation saves the day.
[1:09:42] Have you seen his meditation, Ryan?
[1:09:43] No.
[1:09:43] Oh, it's crazy.
[1:09:45] Who?
[1:09:46] He meditates so hard.
[1:09:48] Luke Skywalker.
[1:09:49] Luke Skywalker.
[1:09:49] Yeah.
[1:09:50] Yeah.
[1:09:50] That he just, he's giving it away.
[1:09:52] People could have seen it by now.
[1:09:54] It's about a 10-year-old film, so.
[1:09:56] Yeah.
[1:09:57] He meditates so hard that he appears in another part of the universe and Kylo Ren fights him for ages before he realizes he's actually not there.
[1:10:07] And in that time, the rebellion managed to escape because they're distracted by Luke.
[1:10:12] Jedi hack.
[1:10:13] Jedi hack, yeah.
[1:10:14] Wow.
[1:10:14] It kills him.
[1:10:15] He collapses because he meditates so hard.
[1:10:17] Yeah, you've got to be careful, don't you, when you meditate?
[1:10:22] Sometimes, you know.
[1:10:24] Yeah.
[1:10:25] So, like, I guess, you know, my point in that is there's many points in there, I suppose, but... You just heard one.
[1:10:32] I'm going to draw out something significant.
[1:10:34] Yeah.
[1:10:37] So he refused the call and yet, like if we mimicked that with depression, so this withdrawing, I don't want to face this challenge, there's no point, it's hopeless, I cannot do this.
[1:10:49] And then a mentor arrives and says, you may have failed in the past, but don't let this determine your future and your pathway.
[1:10:59] And so the mentor then offers like one step forward to trying something
[1:11:04] Um, and I think like that's in some ways the whole point when we look at like particularly multiple episodes of depression is this possibility and it comes back again to hope that we do not know what the future will bring.
[1:11:16] There is no certainty here that you cannot get better.
[1:11:20] But despair tells you that you can't.
[1:11:22] Despair tells you that it's not possible.
[1:11:24] And so the role of a mentor is that like, and sometimes I say this with my clients, that I will hold the hope for you right now.
[1:11:32] If you can't see it, I will hold it here for you and it will stay here in this room and it will exist between the two of us.
[1:11:38] And I will hold it until you're ready to take it with you.
[1:11:42] And I think that's the point.
[1:11:43] Again, like every episode could come back to this is that we cannot do this alone.
[1:11:48] Yeah.
[1:11:48] Yeah.
[1:11:49] If, you know, I've tried it before and I'll try it again, we've got to practice good mentor health.
[1:11:56] Correct.
[1:11:56] Yeah.
[1:11:57] Yes.
[1:11:57] How'd it feel that time?
[1:11:58] Felt better.
[1:12:00] Felt better.
[1:12:01] Yeah, I feel like Em's generosity kicked it over the line.
[1:12:03] Yeah.
[1:12:04] That was good.
[1:12:06] All of these stories just don't, we just cannot survive in the absence of other people.
[1:12:11] Mm-hmm.
[1:12:12] And so I think like when you zoom out, again, so many different things that we can take away from these stories.
[1:12:18] One of them fundamentally is that, yes, we need to be so attuned to who's in our corner and who's here and who we can lean on, who we can ask for advice.
[1:12:29] If I could bring up one Star Wars reference that might tie it all together or maybe it's a bit of a stretch but I will attempt to.
[1:12:35] I feel like I may have used this analogy before but it pops up in my life all the time and this happens at the end of A New Hope.
[1:12:45] There's a bit of a design flaw with the Death Star and they leave a hole where someone could shoot into that hole and blow up the whole Death Star which seems like a very big miss from their heart.
[1:12:58] Anyway, the Rebellion take off to try and shoot through this.
[1:13:02] It's like one in a million, I reckon.
[1:13:05] And all these different Rebellion fighters miss and it comes down to Luke Skywalker.
[1:13:13] And he's got a mask on and it's got a grid, which is very clearly from the 80s.
[1:13:19] And it gets narrower and narrower, the grid.
[1:13:21] That's what he's saying.
[1:13:21] He's not looking at where he's shooting.
[1:13:23] He's looking at the grid and the grid gets narrower and narrower.
[1:13:25] Do you know that scene?
[1:13:26] Yeah.
[1:13:27] And so when the grid tells him to fire, he has to fire.
[1:13:32] And so he's not watching where he's going.
[1:13:34] And he's just, he's like getting closer and closer.
[1:13:36] And then his mentor pops up.
[1:13:39] He's dead, but he can speak to him because there's Star Wars.
[1:13:43] And he says, Obi-Wan Kenobi.
[1:13:44] Obi-Wan Kenobi.
[1:13:45] And he says, use the Force, Luke.
[1:13:47] and Luke takes away the grid goggles thing.
[1:13:52] Like the aiming system.
[1:13:54] Yeah, the guidance computer.
[1:13:55] And he just like fires away at the Death Star and backs himself.
[1:13:59] He's like, no, no, I can do this.
[1:14:01] I'll use the Force.
[1:14:02] And, I mean, it pops out when I'm like using Google Maps sometimes.
[1:14:07] I'll be with the screen so confused going, hang on, where am I meant to go?
[1:14:11] But I might be going to a building like...
[1:14:13] I might be going to the art centre.
[1:14:14] I'm like, hang on, just don't use that.
[1:14:16] Look up.
[1:14:16] The art centre's there.
[1:14:17] Drive to there.
[1:14:19] Or maybe if I'm reverse parking in the car.
[1:14:20] Use your thoughts.
[1:14:21] Yeah.
[1:14:22] Or like I'm reverse parking and I'm using all the different screens.
[1:14:25] I'm like, no, just get rid of that.
[1:14:28] Just use your ability to reverse into this car space.
[1:14:30] You don't need all those screens that are confusing and beeping right now.
[1:14:33] But then it also... Da-na-na-na-na.
[1:14:35] Reverse parking.
[1:14:38] But then it also appeared last year when things were really at its toughest with all this stuff that was happening at the exact same time, four or five things that on its own were very, very troubling, not wearing glasses, that wasn't one of them.
[1:14:53] I did have this thought of like, no, you are definitely able to get through this.
[1:14:58] I'd get bogged down with one, then the next and think about the next and it felt like
[1:15:02] there was no way out of the darkness or there was no way beyond each thing.
[1:15:06] So I'd get past one thing and have to deal with the next.
[1:15:08] And it was all comparing on top of each other.
[1:15:09] But I did have this feeling of like, no, you're very, you're too narrow.
[1:15:17] Like you're just, just remove all that.
[1:15:19] Just, you can do this.
[1:15:20] Like you, you've got, you've been alive for 44 years.
[1:15:22] You've gone through a lot.
[1:15:23] You can, you can get, it was almost like a,
[1:15:26] you can do this type voice.
[1:15:28] I don't know where it's coming from, but it was just, and I thought of that scene again, of taking away the guidance system and just moving forward.
[1:15:37] I think that's really powerful.
[1:15:39] And there are so many things in there around being able to really, again, tune into, we all have an instinct and a gut intuition, but it gets covered up by so many things and we're disconnected from it so often.
[1:15:53] And so, yes, part of this invitation is to really tune in to this instinct
[1:15:58] And then also what accompanies that is this deep awareness that you have made it through your hardest days already.
[1:16:05] Like we already know that you have made it through those hard days.
[1:16:09] And we can even use that as this evidence to say, I have done this and I can do really hard things.
[1:16:17] And.
[1:16:19] Yes, that's probably not going to feel like enough when you're right in the thick of it.
[1:16:22] Absolutely not.
[1:16:23] But it's accessing this part of you that is hoping, again, hoping for this better future with the knowledge that there's some part of me in here that believes you can.
[1:16:35] So, you know, if you go and watch Star Wars again, like any one of them, you know, might even just seem like to notice, how does it feel for you when you're watching it?
[1:16:42] Like it might sound silly, but are you feeling a sense of like even inspiration?
[1:16:47] Are you feeling a sense of there's this shared universal yearning here for like a hopeful future?
[1:16:55] or are you noticing that I'm feeling anxious when there's a challenge here?
[1:17:00] So, you know, the power of movies is pretty incredible and I don't think we can underestimate that and therapeutically, yes, we can use that.
[1:17:09] But fundamentally for yourself, like what is this journey about?
[1:17:14] What is this identity?
[1:17:15] What is this sense of self?
[1:17:17] And also what's it in service of?
[1:17:19] Like where am I going with this?
[1:17:21] Brilliant.
[1:17:22] Brilliant.
[1:17:23] Thank you.
[1:17:24] My pleasure.
[1:17:24] I love Joshua's title, A New Hope.
[1:17:28] Can I also suggest The Empire Strikes Back?
[1:17:31] M. Oh, that's really good.
[1:17:33] How long have you been sitting on that?
[1:17:36] A whole lot.
[1:17:36] I never said it when you said yours, but I felt like I didn't want to compete.
[1:17:39] You've done that very well.
[1:17:40] Let me get to the end.
[1:17:42] Oh, that's very good.
[1:17:44] Excellent.
[1:17:45] All right.
[1:17:46] To Star Wars fans listening who have made it this far, what?
[1:17:50] We love Star Wars, but clearly we're not.
[1:17:52] Like, we don't know as much about it as you do.
[1:17:54] So apologies if we have got it wrong on a few occasions.
[1:17:57] That was... Dr.
[1:17:59] Empire Strikes Back?
[1:18:01] Maybe that's... Yeah.
[1:18:03] A new hope.
[1:18:03] Dr.
[1:18:03] Empire Strikes Back.
[1:18:04] All of it together, yeah.
[1:18:07] What everyone said.
[1:18:07] All in the one line.
[1:18:09] Yeah.
[1:18:10] Thanks, Sam.
[1:18:11] Thank you, everybody.
[1:18:13] If you enjoyed this episode but want a little bit more, we've got some good news.
[1:18:16] We have a brand new show called A Little More Imperfects and it's on Patreon.
[1:18:20] For a little bit of money, you'll get access to bonus episodes with Hugh, Ryan and Josh every fortnight.
[1:18:26] Early access to live events plus other things we haven't even thought of yet.
[1:18:29] Visit patreon.com slash the imperfects.

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