# Dr Emily - Compassion of The Self

An episode of [The Imperfects](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1476501557), 8 Sep 2024, 1 h 07 min.

Audio: https://enrichment.soundstack.com/4vjqq8/episode.flightcast.com/mi6ee9dkifkydsb8smko3866.mp3

Do you feel like you're on your own side? Are you able to speak to yourself with kindness? Or stick up for yourself in front of others? That, my friend, is self-compassion and it can be incredibly hard to do. Dr Em says, "compassion" in Latin translates to “with suffering.” And SELF-compassion is how we relate, reflect and react when our self is suffering. In this episode, Dr Em talks about why cultivating a self-compassionate voice is SO DIFFICULT, but how it's also pivotal in getting us through our darkest moments. And we chat through whether self-compassion needs a re-brand? (Hugh's gunning for self-chop-out, but we're still taking recommendations?) To watch this full episode on YouTube, follow this link: https://bit.ly/4gdli8B 📖Books Josh hasn’t read (but definitely will at some point) • Against Empathy - Paul Bloom - https://amzn.to/4g53tbR • Fierce Compassion - Kristin Neff - https://amzn.to/4cJESGI 🎧Things to listen to • Brooke Blurton - The Path of Most Resilience - https://apple.co/4e8XmkP • Dr Emily - Who Is Your Inner Critic & Why Is It There? - https://apple.co/3XaFdw9 💻Things to check out • Kristin Neff’s online resources - https://bit.ly/3XspqKL • Paul Gilbert’s review on Self-Compassion - https://bit.ly/3AQbJML Dr Emily is a clinical psychologist and you can find out more about her here - https://bit.ly/4gesuBy The Imperfects is not a licensed mental health service and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, treatment or assessment. The advice given in this episode is general in nature, but if you’re struggling, please see a healthcare professional, or call lifeline on 13 11 14.

## Transcript

[0:01] The more compassionate we are to ourselves, the more motivated we are, the more productive we are, the more wellbeing we experience.
[0:11] There's also a very strong correlation with physiological health.
[0:17] Quick, is anyone here a doctor?
[0:19] Yes, her name is Dr Emily and she's a psychologist.
[0:25] Please welcome to The Imperfects, our very own Psychologist!
[0:32] Hello.
[0:36] Hi.
[0:36] I really, a bad time to switch off, but I totally switched off then because I was like, well, Em's here, so we don't really need to do anything.
[0:42] Em just does amazing episodes and we just sit here and experience them.
[0:45] So we got it.
[0:46] We got it.
[0:47] We have to do some kind of an intro, don't we?
[0:50] That's preferable.
[0:51] Yeah.
[0:52] So people know we.
[0:53] I'm sure Em would appreciate it if the three of us didn't just sit here in silence.
[0:57] Just look at it.
[0:58] Yeah.
[0:59] I was like, bring something out of my brain.
[1:02] It's an exciting day whenever Dr. Em is in town in the studio.
[1:06] How are you, Em?
[1:07] I'm very good.
[1:08] Yes.
[1:08] I think you will tell I'm feeling quite joyous today.
[1:14] When you walked in, you walked in with some baked goods.
[1:17] Yes.
[1:18] Can you give us some background on the food you brought in?
[1:20] This is a shout out to my mum, who's brought in the baked goods to celebrate the in podcast.
[1:28] The hidden podcast.
[1:29] The hidden podcast.
[1:31] No, as a shout-out to you guys and also because she loves me, I think, very much.
[1:37] Yep.
[1:37] She has to do that, doesn't she?
[1:39] She does.
[1:39] Yeah, unconditional.
[1:41] I might have told this during the podcast before, but in 1999... Ball and cinema.
[1:47] Yep.
[1:47] Em and I were on a shift together.
[1:48] Oh, my God.
[1:50] And I promise you this happened.
[1:52] Em can vouch for this.
[1:53] Oh, I know what you're going to say.
[1:54] Yeah.
[1:54] I said to Em out of nowhere, can I guess your parents' names?
[1:57] We didn't know each other that well then.
[1:58] And she went, all right.
[2:00] And I said, Jeff and Pauline.
[2:02] And she went, yes.
[2:05] What?
[2:06] I think I knew that.
[2:08] You knew that?
[2:09] I didn't know that.
[2:10] Oh.
[2:10] Isn't it?
[2:11] I think I'm just... Like, I didn't know.
[2:14] I didn't know.
[2:15] That is, I mean, I'm going to have to...
[2:17] I think I'm just saying maybe I've heard that in case you've said it on the podcast before and now I know people will say, yeah, you've already said that.
[2:23] And that'll sound like I'm forgetting it.
[2:24] I'm forgetting it.
[2:27] But I don't really remember you saying it.
[2:28] I think it's the most amazing thing that's ever happened in my life.
[2:30] It is shocking.
[2:30] It is shocking.
[2:32] What was it about Emily that projected Jeff and Pauline as parents?
[2:36] Yeah, I know.
[2:37] I will never know.
[2:37] I still think about it pretty often.
[2:40] How often?
[2:41] Most days.
[2:42] That's not true.
[2:46] It's concerning if that's true.
[2:47] Most days.
[2:49] You have so much on.
[2:50] The fact that you can squeeze in, I'm really telling you to guess Jeff and Pauline.
[2:56] Anyway, Benji, jump in the car.
[2:59] Hey, Benji, have I ever told you about the time I...
[3:01] Yes, Dan!
[3:05] It's definitely the most amazing thing I've ever done in my life.
[3:07] But anyway.
[3:07] Well done.
[3:08] It's great to say that.
[3:09] Wow.
[3:09] The most amazing thing I've ever done in your life.
[3:11] Guessing someone's parents' names with no... What are the chances of that?
[3:15] Let's just see.
[3:17] Without wanting to...
[3:18] I'm thinking of a name.
[3:19] It's a male name.
[3:20] Yeah.
[3:21] What is it?
[3:22] Greg.
[3:22] No, close.
[3:23] Oh, Greg.
[3:24] Same group.
[3:25] Oh, is it Greg?
[3:26] Colin.
[3:27] Oh, okay.
[3:28] Anyway.
[3:28] You know, they're name groups.
[3:30] You know how, like, Greg and Colin are, like, from the same world?
[3:33] Yeah, true.
[3:33] Yeah, they are.
[3:34] You know, you wouldn't put, like, Greg and Hunter in the same group.
[3:37] Or Chad.
[3:38] Or Chad.
[3:38] Yeah.
[3:39] But Greg and Colin, it's like Alan, Greg, Colin, like, they're all.
[3:42] Yeah, yeah.
[3:43] Hunter, like, Jackson would be in Hunter.
[3:44] Yes, yes.
[3:45] That's so funny.
[3:46] My son's name's Hunter and his cousin is Jackson.
[3:48] I'll leave you guys to it Benji that is amazing and that is weird because I remember hearing a story about Janet Jackson playing Buck Hunter the arcade game once so incredible coincidence
[4:14] Oh, God.
[4:15] Okay.
[4:16] It's really got to get myself together.
[4:19] So, Dr. M, as people know when they listen, you've got a lot of fans now.
[4:24] But when you come on the podcast, you bring a topic or something you want to talk about based on a moment from a previous episode.
[4:32] Which episode do you want to look back and reflect on?
[4:34] Well, I would really love to talk about Brooke Blurton.
[4:38] Wonderful Brooke Blurton Well Brooke Blurton just for people who don't Most people know Brooke Blurton But Brooke Blurton became known first probably for being on The Bachelor Bachelorette But she's also a social worker and has done so much incredible work Separate to television And yeah she was on the podcast And I feel like I need to add She's not your girlfriend
[4:59] Well, yeah.
[4:59] I mean, I don't think many people would even have any reason to think that, Hugh.
[5:04] No, well, I...
[5:04] I think you're putting a lot of value on your post on Instagram.
[5:09] It's not like the whole world's talking.
[5:12] I reckon you got one or two messages and now it deserves a press conference.
[5:15] Well, I just feel like two people said it, maybe a lot of people thought it.
[5:18] You and I went to the basketball.
[5:19] We got a lovely invite to Melbourne United.
[5:21] It was a wonderful time and we were sitting, we were sat next to Brooke Blurton.
[5:25] We didn't go with her.
[5:26] You were sitting next to her and we had a photo together.
[5:28] And two people messaged me and said, oh, I didn't know Ryan was dating Brooke Blurton.
[5:33] And categorically say, am not.
[5:35] Good.
[5:36] We did that.
[5:37] Should get that out to all the outlets now, actually.
[5:39] Just release that to the necessary press.
[5:44] So I wanted to, I really wanted to highlight her episode in particular.
[5:47] And honestly, she really blew me away in lots of different facets of what she was talking about.
[5:54] But there's a particular clip towards the end of her episode that really highlighted to me the experience of self-compassion in particular.
[6:03] Yeah.
[6:04] Yeah.
[6:05] Yeah.
[6:05] Yeah.
[6:05] Her episode, I remember when we recorded that day, it was, it was such a, okay, that, that, that chat really stuck with all of us for quite a while after it.
[6:16] Yeah.
[6:16] I'll never forget.
[6:17] Yeah.
[6:18] And also I have to say that from a, from a clinical, um, you know, therapeutic point of view and of listening to the way in which she, you know, spoke.
[6:26] Yeah.
[6:27] about her experience, you could hear that she was up, you know, up really close to the feelings that were here, but she just held, to me, it sounded as though she held it in such a really compassionate and gentle way.
[6:39] And, you know, certainly kind of having worked in trauma work before, you know, that's not always the outcome.
[6:45] So I thought we could kind of explore a little bit more about the power of self-compassion.
[6:49] Brilliant.
[6:50] Brilliant.
[6:50] Awesome.
[6:54] in an experience like you can never let it define you or you can choose, you know, a different path.
[7:03] And I always say to myself that in that time, back to that young girl, is I only did the best that I could with what I had.
[7:14] And that's enough.
[7:15] Like that was more than enough.
[7:17] Like I can't...
[7:21] Like I said, I wouldn't change any of those experiences, even the really, really fucked up ones.
[7:27] Sorry, excuse my language, but...
[7:31] Wow, yeah, even just hearing that again, it's fully taking me back to her whole story.
[7:37] Amazing.
[7:41] If you haven't heard the episode, what she's referencing there is in a very short space of time, she lost her grandma, who she was very close to, then her mother shortly after that.
[7:50] And then at the wake, she was sexually assaulted and from that point on really was, I guess, fending for herself as a 12-year-old, 13-year-old.
[8:01] And I think although she didn't say it in that clip, she didn't explicitly use kind of compassion, it felt really implicit to me in the words that she was using, that she could hold her little self really with a lot of compassion.
[8:17] Which I guess kind of brings me to understanding what self-compassion is.
[8:21] And I know that I've mentioned it earlier.
[8:23] like quite a lot probably in all of my episodes, but I thought it would be really useful to kind of get a much bigger handle on what this experience actually is and why it's really important.
[8:33] Yeah.
[8:34] I'm sure you'll go into a lot more, maybe you'll go from a different angle than what's first jumped into my mind, but...
[8:40] I often think how when I look back at previous versions of myself, I judge myself according to what I know now as opposed to the person I was back then and in extremely harsh standards.
[8:53] And I might've shared this before, but I had to look up, uh, videos of our childhood to send to when your Australian story was being made last year here.
[9:03] Oh yes.
[9:03] Yeah.
[9:03] Yeah.
[9:04] And, uh, it was videos of us.
[9:07] I was, would have been about 12 or 13 or something.
[9:09] And I was really nervous to look at them because I was kind of ashamed and embarrassed of who I might be.
[9:14] But then I just saw like a little kid and I was forced to, it was a really cathartic thing of going like very different circumstances, but a similar emotion to what Brooke was saying there.
[9:25] Like, oh yeah, you just did the best you could with what you had at the time.
[9:28] Yeah.
[9:30] Yeah.
[9:30] Yeah, I think that's really powerful recognition.
[9:32] And I also think it's a really, really common experience that we can judge ourselves so harshly.
[9:38] But then when you zoom out and you step back and you can recognise the vulnerability and the innocence and the child that was there, I think that really creates a shift.
[9:49] Yeah, absolutely.
[9:51] Yeah, great.
[9:51] But we'll absolutely go into that.
[9:53] Awesome.
[9:55] If we kind of look at, I guess, the definition of self-compassion, even if we just start with compassion, so like the origins of the word compassion, so the Latin com means with and passion is suffering.
[10:08] Passion is suffering?
[10:10] Yeah.
[10:11] Oh, wow.
[10:12] Yeah.
[10:14] Someone got that wrong when they invented English then.
[10:16] Yeah, that's an interesting interpretation then, how it's evolved in English.
[10:20] Look, I'm not an etymologist.
[10:23] That's a shame.
[10:25] But obviously the words evolved.
[10:34] Yes, not that, thankfully.
[10:37] But there is certainly kind of the Latin part of there that refers to suffering.
[10:40] And so if we take those two words, with suffering,
[10:44] Compassion means, you know, how we are with suffering.
[10:49] And self-compassion is how we are with ourselves, our internal experience.
[10:54] And there are, I mean, so much research in this area, really.
[10:58] And there are kind of two, I guess, main streams of thought around self-compassion.
[11:03] One is from Paul Gilbert, and he's very well-renowned in this area of self-compassion work.
[11:09] Yeah.
[11:10] And he's one of the founders of compassion focused therapy.
[11:13] So there's his stuff.
[11:14] And then there's also Kristen Neff and Christopher Germer who developed and founded Mindful Self-Compassion or Mindfulness Self-Compassion.
[11:24] And both of their works are highly influential really in this particular field of, in essence, holding a sense of care and concern for ourselves in combination with a desire to alleviate suffering.
[11:38] Yeah.
[11:39] And it's in that way, in some regards that it differentiates it from empathy.
[11:45] So if we look at empathy, empathy is feeling someone else's feelings almost, being in someone else's shoes and compassion, having compassion for someone else is recognising their suffering coupled with the desire to alleviate it.
[12:02] Mm.
[12:03] So it's quite, in some ways there's a different tone.
[12:05] So compassion's almost more active.
[12:07] Yes.
[12:08] Yeah.
[12:09] Yeah.
[12:09] Which is so interesting because in a lot of ways there is like this, there's some misnomers around compassion being, uh, inactive and passive.
[12:19] Yeah.
[12:20] Yeah.
[12:20] Um, which is actually genuinely not the case.
[12:23] Interesting.
[12:24] And what's so interesting about that distinction there is that the research suggests that holding compassion for others and being self-compassionate is more buffering against burnout than empathy.
[12:41] Wow.
[12:42] Yeah, and this is not to say that empathy does not, of course, have like a very important element in our lives.
[12:47] Change gem.
[12:48] I know.
[12:51] Guys, quickly, change.
[12:52] I mean, it's absolutely vital, you know, in terms of living a healthy life.
[12:59] But there is an element there of fatigue and burnout because we're being exposed to...
[13:06] to the suffering there without, like in the sense of self-compassion, the absence of a desire to take action to alleviate it.
[13:15] There's, um, I'm going to reference, it's pretty stupid, but I'm going to reference a book I haven't read.
[13:22] Good.
[13:23] Wow.
[13:24] Yeah.
[13:25] But I have heard him speak on it a couple of times.
[13:27] The Resilience Project.
[13:28] Yeah.
[13:38] Oh, that's very funny.
[13:40] I have read it, just to run it off.
[13:42] But have you read the second one?
[13:43] Of course.
[13:44] Yeah, yeah.
[13:45] Yeah, Let's Go.
[13:45] No, no, no.
[13:46] Is that right?
[13:47] Let's Go.
[13:47] Yeah.
[13:53] I've heard him speak on it a few times, a guy called Paul Bloom, and he's got a book called Against Empathy, which I think is like a purposefully controversial title because I don't think he's really actually against empathy, but he's against the idea being that empathy can be...
[14:11] can allow us to be overwhelmed by emotion and miss the point of action.
[14:17] And he argues for rational compassion, I think is the phrase.
[14:20] Yeah.
[14:21] Which I think is an interesting thing to mix as well.
[14:24] But then again, I haven't read it, so what do I know?
[14:26] Yeah, exactly.
[14:28] Powerful thing to bring up.
[14:29] Yeah.
[14:31] So what I might do is I might kind of stick with the mindful self-compassion approach to understanding self-compassion because I think it provides us with a really tangible way of working with it.
[14:41] And Kristen Neff defines there being three aspects to self-compassion.
[14:48] And the first is mindfulness.
[14:49] Mindfulness.
[14:51] So mindfulness is required, so this kind of capacity to attend to what's here.
[14:57] To be aware.
[14:58] To notice that I'm suffering.
[14:59] Yep, yep.
[15:00] And I'll tell you why this is really important.
[15:03] So many of us in our day-to-day experiences are disconnected and unaware of the critical time with which we're talking to ourselves.
[15:13] Hmm.
[15:14] So we can be sitting on automatic pilot, walking throughout the day, judging ourselves, being harsh on ourselves for mistakes that we've made, things that we've done incorrectly, whatever it might be.
[15:25] But we are not noticing this internal dialogue that's going on all the time.
[15:30] So the reason why mindfulness is important is that it requires us to recognize suffering is here.
[15:36] Yeah.
[15:38] That's the first part.
[15:39] We have to recognize that suffering is here before we can offer ourselves anything else.
[15:43] Yeah.
[15:43] Yeah.
[15:44] The other component of mindfulness in there is an acceptance of the feelings that are here.
[15:49] So being able to be open to, aware, and allowing of the unpleasantness that is here in the place of suffering.
[15:58] Yeah.
[15:59] And the acceptance of the feelings feels like very different than what often we do, which is getting annoyed about the feelings.
[16:05] 100%.
[16:07] Yeah.
[16:07] That's a struggle against.
[16:09] It's a non-acceptance.
[16:10] Absolutely.
[16:11] Because no one likes pain.
[16:12] You know, it makes so much intuitive sense.
[16:16] We have a huge aversion to discomfort.
[16:19] So why would we willingly want to go to that place of discomfort?
[16:22] Absolutely.
[16:23] That's like, I wish I wasn't so angry right now.
[16:26] Yeah.
[16:26] Yeah.
[16:26] Yeah.
[16:27] Absolutely.
[16:27] Yeah.
[16:28] Or I wish I wasn't so negative on myself.
[16:30] Yeah.
[16:31] And it becomes like a secondary pain then.
[16:33] So the first pain is here, I've, there's the pain of making in the mistake.
[16:37] And then the secondary pain becomes the judging of the self for being annoyed at myself.
[16:43] Yeah.
[16:44] Um, and it just kind of becomes more expansive the more we go.
[16:48] Why am I so hard on myself?
[16:50] Why can't I be kinder to myself?
[16:53] That's actually again, like another critical judging part of us there.
[16:57] Yeah.
[16:59] So mindfulness is the first part, bringing awareness to the suffering that is here.
[17:04] Absolutely key.
[17:05] So we have to kind of slow down to notice suffering is here.
[17:08] That's the first kind of domain of self-compassion.
[17:11] The second one, and this makes a whole lot of sense, is it's an attitude and a quality of kindness and warmth.
[17:20] As in towards yourself.
[17:21] Yes.
[17:22] Yeah.
[17:22] And equally, we can apply this obviously to having and holding compassion for others as well.
[17:28] It's exactly the same.
[17:29] And of course, I'm sure you would all be really familiar with the idea that it is so often very easy to be compassionate
[17:36] Kind, warm hearted, compassionate to others and not to yourselves.
[17:41] Yeah.
[17:42] Yeah.
[17:42] So here is this quality here of being able to offer a kindness and a warmth and a nurturing to the suffering that is here.
[17:51] So we slow down and we can go, yes, I'm here in suffering.
[17:54] I can kind of notice and touch this.
[17:57] And then I can offer myself some kindness and I will come to how we exactly do this.
[18:01] So that's the second part of self-compassion.
[18:04] And then the third part, which is so integral is what's called common humanity.
[18:10] So in suffering, what so often happens is that we feel deeply alone and disconnected.
[18:19] And there'll often be things like questions like, why is this happening to me?
[18:23] No one understands.
[18:24] No one's experienced this before.
[18:27] I am so deeply alone in this.
[18:29] And that brings up so much grief and so much heartache.
[18:35] The reason, therefore, that common humanity is such an important domain in self-compassion is that suffering is universal.
[18:43] And even though our exact situations will never be the same, this suffering is universal.
[18:50] And when we feel that we have a collective or a shared experience, that becomes hugely buffering.
[18:58] So when you say this suffering is universal, do you mean like everyone in the world experiences suffering like this or do you mean the suffering is connected to like this source of, you know, which is kind of, I guess...
[19:14] is we're probably a more, like I know I've heard like Rick Rubin and more spiritual people talk about it in that point of view, but also like is it the Buddhist thing which is like, is it life is suffering?
[19:25] Yes, it is.
[19:25] That's like the kind of main catchphrase from Buddhism.
[19:30] Yes.
[19:31] Life is suffering, yeah.
[19:32] Yeah, it is.
[19:33] And so it's actually both of those things.
[19:35] So, you know, for anyone that has experienced, for example, depression, one of the kind of almost like key qualities in there is this sense of,
[19:43] despairing aloneness and disconnection from other people.
[19:47] And so in the space of self-compassion, we're really bringing in the fact that, no, you are not alone.
[19:51] You know, this suffering that is here, whilst it may not be identical to the next person, this is something that other people have also experienced too.
[20:01] So we're really kind of using this sense of, um,
[20:04] of what's called the affiliative system in the body, this kind of mammalian part of us that yearns for connection and belonging with other people.
[20:15] Is there a phrase that's coming to mind is, do you hear much in like clinic and stuff?
[20:22] Because the phrase like, I wish I was normal?
[20:26] Yes, all the time.
[20:27] Because I feel like that is when you're really down on yourself, you think like, I wish, you know, I wish I was more like, quote unquote, normal, particularly if it's like consistent feelings and if it's like something you always feel.
[20:39] Yeah.
[20:40] But when you kind of potentially when you step out of that negative state and you're in a better mood, you can kind of see more objectively that like, oh, well, probably there is no normal.
[20:53] But it's very hard to kind of, well, I find it's very hard to have that objectivity when you're in the depths of.
[21:01] Absolutely, yeah.
[21:03] It feels very lonely and, you know, often it can be associated too with like a feeling of.
[21:11] Self-pity and self-pity is actually very different from self-compassion.
[21:16] And I also really want to emphasize that this is not intentional.
[21:20] We don't kind of intentionally move into feeling sorry for ourselves.
[21:24] This is really an indicator of the deep pain that's here.
[21:29] But that pity comes with this question, like, why me?
[21:34] This is so unfair.
[21:36] Why is this happening to me?
[21:37] And that quality feels very lonely.
[21:40] Whereas self-compassion will be like, oh, this is so hard.
[21:46] This is so hard.
[21:47] And this is part of me being a human in this world.
[21:53] It's, it's really tricky and very hard work.
[21:56] I've got to be honest.
[21:58] Yeah, it took me a very – I think this internal dialogue is something that I've spent the vast majority of my going to a psychologist to work on.
[22:08] It took me about six years, seven years, and it's still there.
[22:12] But early on, this is sort of for that first step.
[22:15] You're talking about the noticing and mindfulness.
[22:17] I don't – this activity could be very confronting for some people, but something that I did –
[22:24] was and was advised to do was to just write down that voice.
[22:29] Like just don't do it much because it's pretty confronting, but just start to write down what you're saying to yourself.
[22:35] When you see it written on a piece of paper, it's pretty alarming, like the things that you'd be willing to say to yourself inside your head.
[22:41] And that was the first step for me of actually noticing how
[22:45] bad it was because I hadn't, when you've been doing it for so long, you, as you said, you, um, you don't notice and you just think this is the normal way a brain works to the point where I'm, I guess a question for you is that are there, I get a little glimpse of it now every now and then, but there are actually people that go around walking around who don't have that voice, who don't, who are able to, who, who are in a constant state of self-compassion or lack.
[23:12] I think that if you were to ask Buddhist monks, then that would be.
[23:17] But, and equally, I mean, like, again, if you would ask them, and I've certainly kind of listened to interviews with, you know, with quite a few, is that yes, like they have a normal human mind and the human mind is a meaning making machine.
[23:29] And so those thoughts will pass through potentially, but it's the way they relate to them that is very different.
[23:35] So we, like if we look at the function of self-criticism, you know, of course, and I mentioned this in so many different ways, but it's part of our evolutionary history.
[23:44] We are primed to pay attention to threat.
[23:48] So if we were to ignore all of the critical thoughts or not even have them, then we'd actually be in a lot of danger.
[23:56] Mm-hmm.
[23:57] So, I mean, this is just my opinion about that question, Josh, but I think it would be almost impossible not to have critical thoughts from time to time, but it depends upon how we relate to them when they come up.
[24:11] Yeah.
[24:11] Yeah.
[24:11] Absolutely.
[24:13] But I wonder kind of even staying with that about why is it that we're really harsh on ourselves in response to making a mistake?
[24:20] Yeah.
[24:21] And I mentioned this a little while ago when I did an episode on the Unacritic.
[24:25] And so obviously you can go back and have a listen to that as well.
[24:28] Um, do you guys have a sense of the function?
[24:31] The function, what do you mean?
[24:32] The function of the inner critic, of why we criticise ourselves.
[24:36] I have a very strong theory on it and it's probably wrong.
[24:38] But just my instinct on it is that it's developed.
[24:42] I don't think many people have it when they're very young.
[24:44] I feel like it's something you develop as you get older.
[24:47] And what I feel like having spent 15 years visiting schools is the more time you spend in school, the louder it gets because I think you're trying so hard to be attuned to what everyone else thinks of you so that you can fit in.
[25:00] And I think depending on how, this is my even more specific theory, depending on how kind your year level is or the people in your circle, that can determine how loud that voice is because you need to, you're so finely attuned.
[25:13] I want to belong here.
[25:14] So what are people going to think of me?
[25:15] What are people going to say about me?
[25:17] And I think you often can mimic the way you hear people in your year level or friendship group talk about other people.
[25:26] If it's really harsh and really mean, you just think, well, that could be me.
[25:29] And you, so your brain starts copying that language.
[25:33] I had, in my experience, in my year level, the kindest year level and the most beautiful experience at school.
[25:39] Mm-hmm.
[25:41] I don't, I obviously have negative thoughts about myself, but I deal with them in a very healthy way.
[25:46] And I feel like it's because I never was worried about what people were saying about me at school.
[25:50] I never had that experience of, oh, I don't want to stuff up here because I'll be teased or I'll be bullied or I just didn't have that.
[25:57] And I can't speak for everyone in my year level at school, but for me and definitely my friendship group, that was the case.
[26:02] And I...
[26:03] I feel like all my friends from my year at school have a very healthy relationship with that inner critic.
[26:10] That's always – I think about it a lot and that's my theory on it anyway.
[26:12] I think in the case of someone like Ryan, it's an extremely useful –
[26:19] thing to be, for Ryan to be as creatively, and I hope this doesn't make you feel awkward, but one of the most brilliant creative people I've ever been around.
[26:32] That's fine.
[26:32] Yeah.
[26:36] I can wear that.
[26:37] Yeah.
[26:41] I think it would be impossible to be that good without having a really strong critic in there that can critique...
[26:47] ideas and work, but it has to be done in a compassionate way, I guess.
[26:52] Well, I think that's very kind, Josh, but I think that...
[26:56] How it actually often I think materialises for me is my inner critic is so, so loud.
[27:03] And particularly when I'm making things that I really care about because I align my whole identity with the work, often with the work that I'm doing.
[27:12] And so if I, I'm so fearful that if I make something and put it out there that's bad, people think that I'm bad.
[27:19] And I've just realised what I think I often do is if my inner critic is so loud that I can't silence it on my own, it gets too hard to change how I feel about myself.
[27:33] So instead I focus on what other people think of me, trying to make other people think that I'm good as opposed to me believing that I'm good without that.
[27:43] It's like I need other people's approval often.
[27:46] so that my inner critic can be convinced.
[27:48] And then my inner critic goes like, okay, I guess they would know.
[27:54] Yeah, that's so interesting.
[27:56] So the two things that I really wanted to pick up on, first of all, Hugh, in your example, the thing that struck me about that was safety.
[28:04] And so in environments where we feel safe, then our inner critic can have a rest.
[28:10] It's not on guard.
[28:11] It's not watching.
[28:12] So in safety, we can be more kind to ourselves.
[28:17] In safe environments at home, we can be open to new experiences.
[28:22] We might even encounter failure in a different way when we're coming from a foundation of safety and security.
[28:28] Yeah.
[28:28] So that's kind of what struck me when you were talking about that example.
[28:32] Can I mention a reason why I felt like it was useful and I had real, what's the word, rejection or resisting to turning off the inner critic?
[28:42] For a lot of my life where I've been very critical, the one thing that I wasn't critical about was that I felt like I was quite, and people had always told me that I'm quite a sort of had...
[28:52] reasonably high like sort of social and emotional intelligence like I feel like I can read a room and read people pretty well and social interactions but I thought if I switch off part of that is my critic um and if I switch that off I'll just start offending people yeah and I'll start and I'll lose an aspect of myself that I actually quite like it's like a filter yeah or yeah or my ability to
[29:23] Yeah, so that was always a thing that I didn't, I felt that had utility and I resisted turning it off because if I turn it off, then I'll never, what would happen?
[29:33] Do you have a sense of what would happen?
[29:35] Yeah.
[29:36] Well, yeah, I mean, it's a fear of like, oh, God, if I don't replay that social interaction, I won't know if I've offended people or gone too far or not done enough or like all those things that the critic was saying.
[29:49] So I could just be – people might start hating me and disliking me and I'll lose friends and people won't want to be around me.
[29:57] But it's actually extremely freeing to kind of –
[30:03] walk away and go, well, it doesn't really matter.
[30:06] You did your best and people don't think about you that much anyway.
[30:09] I'm really interested, like Hugh, because I think, because I relate to like an art, like artists and more creative and not that you're not creative, but I'm just thinking with athletics, with like sporting, because you're so focused on sport, on, you know, on running.
[30:27] And I'm just, I'm curious if you got a PB, is it more meaningful if other people know you got a PB?
[30:34] No.
[30:35] It doesn't matter.
[30:36] No.
[30:36] Yeah.
[30:37] It's just, you're just, and if you miss out on it, are you, if you like, if you like have a bad day, are you really down on yourself?
[30:47] Yeah.
[30:49] But not so down on myself.
[30:50] Just.
[30:53] Uh, how do I describe it?
[30:54] Like a bad day training.
[30:55] I mean, like a bad day running.
[30:57] Oh, I had a race at the end of last season where I ran so slowly and I couldn't, I mean, it just took over my everything.
[31:05] I just couldn't, I wasn't down on myself.
[31:07] I was just like, I cannot let this happen again.
[31:09] I have to train so much harder.
[31:12] This cannot happen again.
[31:13] That is an awful feeling being that slow.
[31:15] Because other people are watching or just because for yourself?
[31:17] No, I just knew.
[31:18] No.
[31:18] No one really knew.
[31:19] I don't think.
[31:20] No one watches.
[31:21] No one watches my races or cares.
[31:24] Except for one guy who we met after our live show who watches every race apparently.
[31:30] No.
[31:31] It's personal.
[31:32] It's like for me it's a thing about...
[31:35] It's a great feeling at age 43 to be getting better at something physical.
[31:40] Yeah.
[31:40] Just an incredible feeling to be improving.
[31:43] And then when you have something that it's probably linked to identity and not wanting to feel like I'm getting older and –
[31:50] I guess though, but there would be, because I was just thinking while Josh, you were talking, which is that I'm pretty positive that I will produce better work if I know people are going to see it because of the pressure of the judgment.
[32:06] Do you think that's the same for running?
[32:07] You'll run faster?
[32:08] No.
[32:10] You'll run faster if it's like at a big meet with lots of people?
[32:13] Yeah, probably.
[32:13] I think that's more about adrenaline though.
[32:15] Not so much wanting people to see like my quickest time this season was at Zatapak where there was like 5,000 people there.
[32:21] Yeah.
[32:21] That was adrenaline.
[32:22] That was like this crazy thing of running through a beer tunnel and like having people screaming and yelling.
[32:28] I just felt like an elite athlete.
[32:29] It was amazing.
[32:30] So I got excited, but it wasn't, it definitely wasn't about, I need to show everyone here how fast I can run.
[32:34] It was just the adrenaline of.
[32:36] God, I find that shocking.
[32:42] I think like Sorry you go Josh I'm worried I'm taking it on too much of a tangent But on your The critic The Knowing that other people are going to watch it Making your work better Is it
[32:56] How much is it just knowing that they're going to be judging it and how much is it that there's an opportunity to make some kind of connection between the work that you create and the people as opposed to the work existing in a vacuum?
[33:06] I think when I'm at my – I think peak me is me wanting to make the connection with people.
[33:11] But realistically, more often than not, it's the fear of failing.
[33:16] Okay.
[33:16] That's really what's driving it.
[33:18] It's this fear of – and then if I do –
[33:22] fail in my, you know, by my measure and people have seen it, I get really down on myself.
[33:28] Or if I'm about to release, put out a video or do something that I feel is not really good, I get really, like I have no self-compassion.
[33:38] What stands out to me actually there is...
[33:41] is theoretically the distinction between self-esteem and self-compassion.
[33:45] And like for a very long time, self-esteem was considered like the marker of well-being.
[33:51] And in fact, like even in my research, like 13, 14 years ago, 15 years ago, self-esteem was the tool that was measuring certain things.
[34:01] And I think we've actually moved quite away from that because self-esteem is in essence an assessment of our worth based upon like external markers.
[34:13] So for example, it's far more contingent upon the perception of positive qualities and achievement that are obvious to other people.
[34:23] So it's almost as though in order to feel good about myself, I have to be above average.
[34:27] Mm-hmm.
[34:28] Now, and Kristin Neff actually mentions this too, and that is that logically if we all want to feel good about ourselves, we all have to be above average, which is actually mathematically impossible.
[34:42] Yeah.
[34:44] So self-esteem really is around like these positive, like what I see as my positive attributes, like my sense of self-worth based upon how other people evaluate me.
[34:55] But self-compassion is not contingent on any achievement.
[34:59] Self-compassion is entirely about offering kindness, care, warmth and action to alleviate this regardless of what it is that I'm doing in those moments.
[35:11] Fascinating.
[35:12] It also feels like self-esteem is framing from a deficit point of view and self-compassion is from a – what's the opposite of deficit?
[35:24] Opposite?
[35:26] Yeah.
[35:27] The opposite of deficit.
[35:28] I don't know.
[35:29] Yeah, but it feels like self-esteem for me.
[35:31] When you were saying it, I'd be like, well, do I have like a house, like a good house or a car or a good job?
[35:40] I could go, no, I've got all these things.
[35:41] Things are good, which is kind of like framing of what don't I have as well, where self-compassion is kind of like, well, at least I've got this.
[35:50] I did my best.
[35:51] Like it's a much more soothing and positive way of looking at yourself.
[35:55] Yeah, it is.
[35:56] And it's not being unrealistic either.
[35:59] Um, it's not about toxic positivity, self-compassion, it's really nothing to do with that at all.
[36:04] That's really around recognizing the suffering, um, being kind about how hard this feels and then, like I said before, kind of making steps towards some kind of action to alleviate this.
[36:15] Yeah.
[36:17] So I guess in some ways the question is like, well, what might be some of the blocks to self-compassion?
[36:23] And then also can we talk about the things that we can do?
[36:26] Yes, 100%.
[36:26] Yeah, I won't leave you with that stuff.
[36:28] Not that you needed me.
[36:31] First of all, I will mention that there are some amazing online courses that you can do in self-compassion that go so far beyond what I can possibly tell you today.
[36:41] And so I guess today really is just like an encounter with this content, with this topic.
[36:49] the stuff that's available is so, so helpful and really evidence-based.
[36:53] So please keep that in mind in any of the stuff that I'm talking about.
[36:57] The biggest blocks to self-compassion are obviously self-criticism and the idea that if I let go of this inner critic, that somehow I will become lazy, I will become unmotivated, I will be indulgent, I won't get anything done.
[37:14] It's one of the biggest blocks to this.
[37:16] Or won't get anything done of quality.
[37:20] Quality, right.
[37:21] Yeah.
[37:22] There's another word I'm thinking for some people.
[37:24] I think it's like...
[37:27] The word self-compassion just sounds a bit self-helpy.
[37:30] And there is like a, I mean, my books sat on in the self-help aisle at bookshops, but I still see self-help and I'm like, I don't want that.
[37:39] Yeah.
[37:40] I want something more rigorous or I'm not interested in self-help.
[37:43] It's just a bit wishy-washy, which is ridiculous.
[37:46] But I think that's a lot of people would put self-compassion in that category of, I don't want to do that.
[37:50] 100%.
[37:51] Yeah.
[37:51] So the self-help part feels almost like mamby-pamby or like too woo-woo or something that is for other people.
[38:00] But I can't be clear enough.
[38:01] The research again and again shows us that the more compassionate we are to ourselves, the more motivated we are, the more productive we are, the more wellbeing we experience, there's also a very strong correlation with physiological health.
[38:20] And if we think about this, when the inner critic is like constantly on the rampage, that is in of itself a stress response.
[38:30] So the internal workings of the body are ramping up to fight the threat or the stressor when the inner critic is active.
[38:41] So if we've got a really active inner critic, we're sitting in a stress response far more often.
[38:46] Okay.
[38:48] In a stress response, from a functional IQ point of view, we cannot produce the same quality work.
[38:56] So when the inner critic is here, we're compromising our intellectual capacities and our performance capacities.
[39:04] And then the fear of if you drop the critic, my work won't be as good is the complete opposite of the truth.
[39:11] An absolute fallacy.
[39:12] Yeah, yeah.
[39:13] And I do say this from a very evidence-based point of view is that it's been shown repeatedly that people who are self-compassionate and also compassionate to others have much greater psychological health and physical health and are able to produce work.
[39:35] Tendency towards a growth mindset.
[39:38] So if something doesn't work out, often it can kind of go two ways, not all the time, but either we can move into like that, again, like that inner critic, what's wrong with me?
[39:49] I've failed.
[39:50] This will never work out.
[39:51] Or sometimes it can go into blaming and externalising.
[39:57] That's not my fault.
[39:58] That's their fault.
[39:59] They cut me off.
[40:01] They did this and we move into a blaming and shaming kind of externalising way of relating to this pain that's here.
[40:08] Yeah.
[40:09] Now, both ends of the spectrum, the inner critic, and we could almost say it's moving towards the narcissistic end of the spectrum.
[40:16] Both of those do not allow us to reflect on what we could do differently.
[40:22] Whereas self-compassion really asks us to slow down and to notice.
[40:26] So this didn't really, this didn't really work out.
[40:28] Um, and this feels really hard and what can I do differently?
[40:31] So it's very much associated with having this growth mindset.
[40:36] So it promotes learning and it actually, and even if we look at, at that idea within, um, like organizational psychology and leadership, we want a leader who's self-compassionate, Ryan.
[40:48] Mm-hmm.
[40:49] You think about the conditions in which, you know, you've had bosses or colleagues who are compassionate.
[40:57] How much more does that create a sense of learning?
[41:01] Yeah, exactly.
[41:02] Yeah.
[41:02] I feel like maybe this is just for me, but it feels like there is a bit of a mix up going on in my mind of like self-compassion.
[41:11] And I think maybe for some other men that I know, where self-compassion could lead to a lack of accountability.
[41:17] Mm-hmm.
[41:17] Yes, definitely.
[41:18] And not being accountable for your actions is a real sort of faux pas for a lot of people of like this is something I pride myself on.
[41:28] And if I'm just self-compassionate to myself, I'm just giving myself a pass on bad behavior and stuffing up and stuff.
[41:34] So I think that's a really important point you made in there that it's a lens in which you are able to actually work out how to do better.
[41:41] So it's almost like a heightened sense of accountability, but without the judgment.
[41:46] Spot on.
[41:46] Totally spot on.
[41:47] I feel like it almost needs to be more effective for all of us.
[41:50] It needs a rebrand.
[41:51] Like it needs a different name.
[41:52] I feel like self-compassion to me, just thinking about it more, I'm trying to think about the blockers, but it does feel like a feminine thing.
[42:01] I think like a masculine, like self-chop out or something.
[42:05] I don't know.
[42:08] I don't have that reaction to it at all.
[42:13] No.
[42:14] I mean, even self-help, I didn't have that reaction, that same reaction.
[42:17] Yeah.
[42:18] I can, most of the things I read would be considered self-help.
[42:21] Yeah.
[42:21] I mean, me too.
[42:22] I'm exactly the same, but I feel like maybe it's because I'm used to, I've presented to so many people who are against this stuff.
[42:31] you know, whether it's big groups of men through, not against it, but there's a block.
[42:37] Like I'm so conscious of the block, so I'm constantly reframing and rewording stuff to groups of... How about like...
[42:45] Self, no, you're right, mate.
[42:48] That's great.
[42:49] Self-compassion, self-know, you're right, mate.
[42:50] That's actually pretty good.
[42:51] That's good.
[42:53] No, I've just read I said chop out before because I'm so used to men going, no, thanks for the chop out.
[42:56] That was a good chop out.
[42:58] I just say that all the time.
[42:59] That's what I was thinking of, self-chop out.
[43:00] Yeah.
[43:01] That's really interesting.
[43:01] In fact, Kristen Neff has a relatively new book called Fierce Compassion.
[43:07] And in this, she's actually really highlighting that there are actually two dimensions to self-compassion.
[43:13] And the first is a tenderness.
[43:14] And that's probably what we think about most often when we're thinking of self-compassion is like this nurturing, warm, kind-hearted feeling.
[43:23] acceptance of this suffering that's here.
[43:26] And that's almost like you can say like the parent soothing a child, for example, would be like this tender part of self-compassion.
[43:33] But then she also mentions like that there is this fierce self-compassion in here that is absolutely an integral part of self-compassion
[43:40] of being compassionate towards ourselves.
[43:43] And that is like the mama bear that is protecting her cubs.
[43:49] So she's not nurturing them in that moment in a tender way.
[43:52] She's protecting them.
[43:54] And so self-compassion is, as one of my favourite authors likes to say, Rick Hansen, it's being on your own side.
[44:03] So when I'm on my own side, how do I show up for myself?
[44:06] Yes.
[44:07] And it might be, an example could be, today I'm finding it really hard to exercise.
[44:14] And exercise might be something that is kind of important for me, for example.
[44:19] I'm finding it really hard.
[44:20] I'm noticing that there's a lot of discomfort here.
[44:23] Um, and so I recognize it's here and I can notice and name it, and then I say to myself,
[44:29] Emily, this feels really important for you to get out and do it.
[44:34] So it's almost this tone here of action taking.
[44:38] Like your coach.
[44:39] Yes.
[44:40] And I'm not saying in a punitive coach way.
[44:42] I'm saying this in this would be really good for you to do.
[44:46] So it's almost like really kind of encouraging in like a, no, this is how we're going to do it.
[44:54] It also has great applicability in any instances where you might need to stand up for yourself.
[45:00] So the fierce compassion comes in, I'm protecting myself here and I'm going to stand up for what is important to me.
[45:08] Because I'm on my team.
[45:09] Exactly.
[45:09] I'm on my own side.
[45:11] Yeah.
[45:12] And if you think about what does it mean to be on someone's side, it means to stand up for them.
[45:17] Yeah.
[45:17] Yep.
[45:17] Defend them.
[45:18] Yes.
[45:18] And so for me, like even as I'm talking, kind of noticing like it brings a different energy into the body, right?
[45:24] Yeah.
[45:25] And even so often when we would talk about self-compassion, we might have ideas and actions like placing the hand on the heart to offer kindness to what's here and a kind of gentle touch.
[45:37] With a fierce self-compassion, as Kristin Neff describes, it's like placing a fist on the heart and going, this is what I believe in.
[45:46] And this is what I'm standing up for.
[45:48] And this is taking good care of myself.
[45:51] And I feel like that's quite like maybe like a little bit of an inroad into noticing that compassion is not just complacency or letting ourselves off the hook.
[46:04] Really good.
[46:05] I think it also occurs to me that anyone who, I'm thinking of like people I know in my life, one in particular who's like the most, if you were to like draw and design, like the most masculine kind of person.
[46:19] I can hear you.
[46:19] Yeah.
[46:32] That person who is elite at what they do, I think, would never describe it as self-compassion, but practices it to a very effective level.
[46:43] I can tell that there's an inner dialogue going on there of sort of, um, a kind of like, it's all right, mate.
[46:49] You're not good at this at the start, but you've never done it before.
[46:52] We've just got to work harder and get better.
[46:54] You're fine.
[46:54] You're not a problem.
[46:55] You're not the problem.
[46:56] You just haven't done enough.
[46:56] This kind of like, that's awesome.
[46:58] There's a, so, and cause I know, cause that's how he is with other people as well.
[47:03] Um, and it's what allows him to get better at what he does.
[47:07] So there's a, um,
[47:08] Yeah.
[47:08] I don't know what it wouldn't be.
[47:10] I don't think he'd ever use the term self-compassionate.
[47:12] It's definitely what he's, what he's practicing.
[47:14] Yeah.
[47:15] And we, we can totally reframe the actual word.
[47:17] Um, and you know, what kind of lands with you and it may just genuinely be, how can I be on my own side?
[47:24] Um, you know, if that kind of feels particularly kind of almost like from a team oriented point of view is when I'm on my own side, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um,
[47:33] this makes my life easier and it usually will make the lives of others also easier too.
[47:38] Can you kind of think about it in terms of like, because often when you talk about being on your own side, it kind of suggests there's two of you in a weird way.
[47:47] And I wonder whether it would help if you think about yourself as your own like super PA.
[47:54] It's like good PAs, so I hear.
[47:56] Good PAs, they're always like thinking about what they need.
[47:59] What will they need?
[48:00] You know, how can I make their life easier?
[48:02] How can I give them what they need?
[48:06] And so thinking about yourself as your own PA would be kind of interesting.
[48:11] Yeah.
[48:11] I've always wanted a PA. Maybe it's me.
[48:15] Yeah, that's so interesting.
[48:17] I have this on the like sticking up yourself thing.
[48:19] I have something that I've been doing just this year and you were saying before like so the strategy I have, I have a friend called Dolly who I think I've spoken about in a podcast before.
[48:34] Josh, you know him very well.
[48:35] There's no one on my side more than Dolly is.
[48:37] He's so on my team in every situation.
[48:39] I could burn his house down and he'd go,
[48:42] That's right.
[48:43] You obviously wanted a big fire.
[48:43] That's fine.
[48:45] I get it.
[48:46] That's fine.
[48:47] He's so supportive of me.
[48:49] And I often think, what would he say in this situation?
[48:52] And I just copy what he would say.
[48:54] So for me, a lot of the time, it's like saying no to stuff.
[48:56] That's my big, like standing up for myself.
[48:58] And I think if I was explaining the situation to Dolly about why I don't want to do it and what he would say, and I just copy word for it, he would say, because it's so loving and supportive.
[49:08] And I just copy what Dolly would say.
[49:11] That's cool.
[49:11] And would you say that he is also genuinely a compassionate person to most people?
[49:18] Yeah.
[49:19] Yeah.
[49:19] Unless they're mean to me.
[49:21] Yeah.
[49:22] Well, that's the fierce compassion one.
[49:23] Yeah.
[49:25] And when you think about him, it sounds like you admire him.
[49:28] Yes, so much.
[49:29] It sounds like you don't think that he's complacent or lazy or indulgent.
[49:33] Just knowing who he is.
[49:35] No.
[49:36] Yeah.
[49:37] I mean, so this is such a great example of the fact that.
[49:40] He probably equally ties the guy I was thinking of as the most masculine person I've ever met.
[49:44] Yeah.
[49:44] He's a magnificent and glorious man.
[49:48] So that is such an example there of the qualities of compassion.
[49:52] does not mean that I'm lazy, indulgent, self-pitying, that I'm not getting work done.
[49:58] In fact, it's very energizing.
[50:01] And so if we can almost reframe this as this is not about like wishy-washy, be kind to myself.
[50:07] This is really around again, how do I show up for myself?
[50:11] And again, like that question in there, what is it that I need?
[50:15] And so even if you think about as a little kid, when you're suffering, when you're having trouble, there are different elements there in which we can offer kind of a sense of nurturing and also then what is it that they need?
[50:29] There's kind of that combination there.
[50:31] So I see you, I hear you're in pain.
[50:34] And then we can offer a way of nurturing that and that child through that difficulty.
[50:39] Yeah.
[50:39] Mm-hmm.
[50:41] But I do want to mention before I get to some other strategies, one of the very common outcomes when we start to first practice self-compassion, particularly if we have a strong inner critic, and that is the term backdraft.
[50:57] And this is based on firefighting principles.
[50:59] Based on the film, Kurt Russell film.
[51:01] Correct.
[51:01] Yeah.
[51:02] Yeah.
[51:02] And the idea obviously with backdraft is that if you have a fire and you open the door to the fire, the oxygen flames the fire and gets bigger.
[51:10] Mm-hmm.
[51:12] There's a quote in Mindful Self-Compassion that love reveals everything.
[51:16] No, I've forgotten it.
[51:18] Oh, well.
[51:18] Something like, love reveals everything unlike itself.
[51:24] Love reveals everything unlike itself.
[51:27] I don't quite follow.
[51:28] So when you offer yourself unconditional love, when you offer yourself compassion, it will open the door to a history of not feeling loved, right?
[51:40] to a history of not experiencing compassion, to experiences of grief, of greater inner critic.
[51:49] So it's actually whilst on the surface it sounds like this is a lovely thing to do to offer self-compassion.
[51:55] It is actually quite genuinely one of the hardest tasks for us to do is to develop a self-compassionate voice because of its association with the other side of this, the unmet needs around love.
[52:12] Is it analogous to doing weights and you create little micro tears and you create bits of damage and then you become stronger from that?
[52:21] Yes.
[52:23] Yes.
[52:23] I didn't know that's what happens, but yes.
[52:25] Yeah.
[52:26] Yes, it is.
[52:27] And...
[52:29] It's also using that as an example.
[52:32] So you go to the gym, maybe for the first time, you haven't gone for a very long time and you do weights and it feels very painful and you're like, this is too much.
[52:41] I can't do this.
[52:41] You're sore for quite some time.
[52:42] Yes, I'm not going to do this again.
[52:45] In some ways we could use that as an example.
[52:46] So when you first start practicing self-compassion, it's going to trigger.
[52:50] Self-chop out.
[52:51] Yes, it's going to trigger.
[52:54] It's going to trigger quite possibly a whole host of very painful feelings.
[52:58] And so, and this is why, to be honest, I really encourage, particularly if there's any kind of trauma history or, you know, significant mental health challenges, is that this really be done gently with a therapist, for example.
[53:11] It would be really remiss of me not to mention this because the grief that can show up when we start to uncover this, the way in which we've been talking to ourselves, the way in which other people have spoken to us in the past can feel extremely overwhelming.
[53:27] So you mentioned before that there are courses you can do.
[53:31] Those online courses, do they go into this?
[53:34] Absolutely, yeah.
[53:36] So the idea of Backdraft is certainly articulated by Kristen Neff and she's the person that runs these groups.
[53:43] So it's certainly a very well-known aspect of self-compassion and it's also why we need to be really gentle with ourselves when we start kind of turning the mind towards this.
[53:55] I imagine, and the analogy in my mind is linked to this inner critic and my realisation, we've probably talked about this on the inner critic episode, but that the inner critic was trying to protect me.
[54:06] And it was sort of taking on a lot of stuff to protect me.
[54:11] And so if I'm dismantling that inner critic, it's like a floodgate of like, it's all sitting behind that wall and I don't actually know what it is.
[54:17] So when that's gone, it's just going to, yeah.
[54:19] Yeah.
[54:20] Yeah.
[54:20] And there's also some interesting research that has, this is like the very nerdy, if anyone's interested in this, there was an amazing review article done by Paul Gilbert that just came out in April and it's a review of all the self-compassion research over the last kind of 20, 30 years.
[54:36] A meta study?
[54:38] It was not actually.
[54:39] It was a review.
[54:40] Okay.
[54:40] You said review, I should have just taken it.
[54:44] That's very nuanced.
[54:48] Come on, Josh.
[54:51] And one of the really big kind of caveats he puts in there around self-compassion is the fears of self-compassion and for a certain group of people that exposure to kindness, whether from the self or from others, actually triggers the threat system.
[55:09] Triggers the threat system.
[55:10] Yeah, so it's not what you expect.
[55:12] And I'll give you an example.
[55:14] When I first started practicing as a psychologist, you know, very much coming from this like empathic, nurturing kind of approach, and there was a very strong sense for me in my very early career that if I could be really kind to a client,
[55:31] that this kindness in of itself and this compassion in of itself could be healing in some way.
[55:38] Quite a really very kind of naive approach to therapy.
[55:43] And it kind of took me a little while to recognise that for some people experiencing kindness from other people feels extremely uncomfortable.
[55:52] Yeah.
[55:54] And actually activates more of a vigilance.
[55:57] Why is this person being kind to me?
[56:00] And for people that have experienced trauma, there may even be very strong similarities between someone who's being kind and that person then being a perpetrator.
[56:10] Right.
[56:11] So even if you were to look at, for example, like the grooming process, the kindness, the attention, the idolizing of a child, for example, how do I trust this person's niceness is safe?
[56:26] So it's like niceness is actually unsafe.
[56:29] That's heartbreaking.
[56:31] Yeah.
[56:31] So this is why it is on the surface self-compassion looks easy.
[56:36] It's really challenging.
[56:38] It's really challenging.
[56:39] I have an example.
[56:41] I started, regrettably, I started to laugh when you were starting to that because I had this example that just popped in my head and I didn't realise it was going to get that dark.
[56:49] But I, and it relates to you and me, Ryan, over the last, and it was over the last few days we've been sending like video, it was actually me and Jam have been sending video messages, but you've been in the video messages.
[57:01] And I sent one and then you guys responded in the morning with like just applause, which it was like, it was the best possible response you could have gotten.
[57:11] I was writing to work, thinking about it, really happy.
[57:14] And I noticed that I've changed in that I reckon if that happened three years ago, maybe, maybe a little bit longer, but roughly then, the first thing that would have jumped into my mind from your kindness, like incredibly kind, like video message of you guys clapping,
[57:32] that Jam and Ryan didn't actually think what I did was good, but they knew that I would want them to think that it was good.
[57:41] So they were humoring me by sending me a video of them clapping just to make me feel better.
[57:46] But it was actually still a shit video that I sent through.
[57:49] So it would have reinforced that.
[57:50] It would have doubled the critic in my mind, but I was able to just enjoy it the other day and it felt like a really, really...
[58:00] happy moment for me to be able to interact like that and just take it at face value.
[58:04] It was like, oh, they enjoyed what I did and they're showing and it was a nice connecting thing and I loved it.
[58:09] Well, that is, I mean, that is, I mean, your video was superb.
[58:15] Thank you.
[58:16] Incredibly crafted.
[58:19] But I guess that is sort of the beauty of video and audio messages is that you can convey
[58:25] true tone in a way which is, I think, quite authentic.
[58:32] But what I'm saying is that I reckon if my inner critic was more critic, which is absolutely true, but if my critic was what I was a few years ago, it wouldn't have mattered how genuine your video was.
[58:42] I still would have seen that kindness.
[58:44] that you showed by expressing your appreciation of what I did, it still would have triggered the inner critic to double its strength and criticise me even more.
[58:54] I would have turned that into a negative.
[58:56] So how often do you guys send each other messages?
[59:00] Well, it's actually not me.
[59:01] It's me and Jam, actually.
[59:02] It's a debate they're having between, it's an ongoing debate, the milk versus dark chocolate.
[59:12] Oh.
[59:12] Yeah.
[59:13] I could be part of that.
[59:15] Yeah, you could.
[59:17] I feel like you'd be bringing carob into the conversation.
[59:22] And that's something me and Jam can both agree on, I think.
[59:26] Yeah, that's going to go down well.
[59:27] Fair enough.
[59:29] Yes.
[59:30] So what do we do?
[59:31] Yes, good question.
[59:33] So really upfront acknowledging that if there are very strong struggles here, I'm going to absolutely actively encourage you to seek help where you can and to really do this alongside someone else.
[59:45] You know, particularly if in any of the work that we do here that you find it's really activating a lot of stuff, a lot of discomfort, then it tells me that it's important.
[59:54] First of all, if you're noticing discomfort, it tells me that this is really a place to look at for a start.
[1:00:00] Yeah, just on that, my psychologist and I have started working on something that I have to work through.
[1:00:06] And it's very obvious to me, I can't do it by myself.
[1:00:10] Like I can't, it's too hard.
[1:00:12] And so I'm seeing her a lot now, for the rest of the year, when we've got this one thing we're going to work on.
[1:00:17] And it's like...
[1:00:18] Yeah, there's no shame in not being able to do something.
[1:00:20] You can listen to this podcast and understand it academically and intellectually, everything we're saying, but there's no shame in going, but I'm not in a place to do this by myself and I need help.
[1:00:30] I wholeheartedly agree.
[1:00:31] Is this about you weaning off your crocs?
[1:00:36] Not on today.
[1:00:37] Not on today.
[1:00:38] It's working.
[1:00:38] It's working.
[1:00:45] Some things are difficult.
[1:00:46] I went to Birkenstocks yesterday trying to find the more adult version of them and I just, nothing feels like it.
[1:00:52] Anyway.
[1:00:53] Yes.
[1:00:54] So I think that's a really important recognition up front.
[1:00:56] So if this is bringing up anything that feels uncomfortable or painful, then, you know, I
[1:01:01] Gosh, please, if you have the means to access support, then please do.
[1:01:04] Or go and like genuinely go and buy.
[1:01:07] There are some amazing self-help books that model the mindful self-compassion and compassion focused therapy that actually are very active.
[1:01:16] So you have to write and reflect and they get you to do certain activities.
[1:01:20] So they're workbooks readily available and they're not going to cost obviously the same as going to therapy.
[1:01:26] So much more accessible.
[1:01:27] So please keep that in mind.
[1:01:29] Um, the first thing I would really like, I guess, um, kind of maybe pay attention to is really asking yourself, where is the inner critic showing up in my life?
[1:01:38] So taking a moment really to notice, like in which situations does the inner critic show up?
[1:01:45] Also, where is there suffering here in my life?
[1:01:48] Where does suffering show up?
[1:01:51] And then we can have a look at, okay, so what am I going to do with that?
[1:01:55] There are so many different things and different approaches that we can use with this.
[1:01:58] It might even be a simple exercise like when you mentioned your friend Dolly, like thinking about who in your life do you see exhibiting these qualities of compassion?
[1:02:10] Mm.
[1:02:11] What is it that you admire about that?
[1:02:13] How is it that you notice them speaking to themselves or to you?
[1:02:18] So that's a good kind of practice just to reflect on who in my life embodies this.
[1:02:23] And again, noticing that these people don't tend to be the lazy, self-pitying ones.
[1:02:28] The second thing is we can think about doing like a compassionate letter.
[1:02:32] So, you know, writing a letter to yourself as though you are writing to a friend who's struggling with,
[1:02:37] You know, when you think about how you show up to friends or family that are having a really hard time, how is it that you speak to them?
[1:02:44] That's a good idea.
[1:02:46] Yeah, I'd love to receive a letter.
[1:02:48] Yes.
[1:02:48] From me.
[1:02:49] From my PA.
[1:02:50] Exactly.
[1:02:51] Exactly.
[1:02:52] And like keeping in mind, so in here we're, again, holding those three kind of facets of self-compassion here is that I recognise that this is a really hard time, first of all.
[1:03:04] And...
[1:03:05] Like for me, in the last three years we've had in my family some pretty tough stuff happen and I have to tell you that self-compassion has been an absolute vital part of me being able to work with this stuff.
[1:03:22] And so it might be, you know, particularly in times that feel very distressing, it might be like for me it would have been like placing my hand on my heart and going, Em, this is really hard.
[1:03:34] like you're having a really hard time here and I'm here for you in this.
[1:03:40] So it's slowing down enough, recognising what is here and I'm here for you.
[1:03:46] And then we can even, this might sound a bit woo-woo, it's certainly really, really helpful in my experience, is to how you hold yourself gently.
[1:03:55] So...
[1:04:00] This might feel a little bit too activating for some people and please, you know, please tread carefully with this.
[1:04:06] I like to sometimes use the image of the hands as being particularly important.
[1:04:10] So these hands here are the hands that have cared for other people.
[1:04:16] These are the hands that have carried my babies.
[1:04:18] These are the hands that have hugged other people when they're suffering.
[1:04:21] And these are the hands here that I've had since I was a baby.
[1:04:25] And these are the hands here that can offer me a gentle, nurturing response to the grief, to the suffering and the pain that's here.
[1:04:35] People should know your hands are on your heart then when you're saying that.
[1:04:38] Yeah.
[1:04:39] That is, it's important.
[1:04:43] It's also very hard.
[1:04:45] And it might bring up a lot of stuff when we do things like that.
[1:04:49] But that for me, that embodies a compassionate action.
[1:04:53] And then the question is, okay, Em, what do you need right now?
[1:04:58] What would be helpful in this moment?
[1:04:59] Yeah.
[1:05:00] And it might be very simply like it could be that I go and do some meditation, focusing on the breath, using the breath as an anchor to this present moment.
[1:05:10] Or it might be that, you know, I need to go for a run or it might be that I need to call someone or I reach out to a friend or a family member.
[1:05:18] So it's really kind of this invitation here, pausing, noticing, and then asking myself, what is it that I really need right now?
[1:05:26] That's what, that, that's what is important to me.
[1:05:29] It's something that I would work with my clients.
[1:05:31] Absolutely.
[1:05:33] But it is, it is hard and it is, you know, really truly recognizing the suffering that we all experience.
[1:05:39] Yeah.
[1:05:40] Something beautiful about the hands thing as well that feels like it's taking what very much feels like it's in your head into a physical space and something that you can actually do something with.
[1:05:51] Yeah.
[1:05:52] It's like the first small step into taking it out of your head, which feels, I don't know if there's any science to that, but it feels.
[1:05:58] There is.
[1:05:59] Yeah.
[1:05:59] It feels like a good idea.
[1:06:02] Yeah.
[1:06:03] Yeah.
[1:06:04] I could go on.
[1:06:05] I felt like giving a standing ovation.
[1:06:08] That was really beautiful.
[1:06:10] Yeah.
[1:06:11] Really beautiful.
[1:06:12] Yeah.
[1:06:13] I guess all of the things you've mentioned will link to in the show notes if people want, everything, everything that you've mentioned, every word linked to the dictionary meaning, everything.
[1:06:23] And the books that I haven't read.
[1:06:24] The books, yes.
[1:06:25] Definitely.
[1:06:26] The library of books that Josh has not yet read.
[1:06:28] Yeah.
[1:06:29] Get a photo of Dolly in there as well.
[1:06:33] That's important.
[1:06:34] Maybe him saying something kind.
[1:06:35] Yes, definitely.
[1:06:39] Dr. M, that was sensational.
[1:06:43] Sensational.
[1:06:45] Thank you so much.
[1:06:45] It really was.
[1:06:46] Thank you.
[1:06:47] It's a real pleasure.
[1:06:48] It's one of my favourite things.
[1:06:50] Awesome.
[1:06:51] Unbelievable.
[1:06:51] Brilliant.
[1:06:52] Thank you for having me.
[1:06:53] Thanks, Em.
[1:06:54] Just let that sink in, everyone.
[1:06:57] Yeah, just really, there were so many moments in that where I just, yeah, that was very special.
[1:07:03] Thank you for that.
[1:07:03] It's a pleasure.

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