# Hannah Ferguson - Outspoken But Not Broken

An episode of [The Imperfects](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1476501557), 24 Aug 2025, 1 h 22 min.

Audio: https://enrichment.soundstack.com/4vjqq8/episode.flightcast.com/sh6elb1p1puiy6ay8sx1lgmm.mp3

Not shut down by the fear of humiliation, Hannah Ferguson believes her biggest failure would be to never try in the first place. 💌 subscribe to our newsletter, my imperfect email, here - http://bit.ly/45NyQDy In saying that, everything Hannah tries (and touches), inevitably turns to gold (media company, podcast, author, you get the point). In this episode of The Vulnerabilitea House, Hannah answers the question, “what have you learnt about love from the way you were cared for as a child?” Recounting the moment she was asked to be responsible for the lives of her siblings, Hannah is incredibly vulnerable and honest in reflecting on the status of her relationship with her parents now, and goes deep with Ryan about the importance of intention. In the spirit of her word of the year being ‘soft’, Hannah and Josh unpack why she has felt undesirable and undatable, and what makes her current partner feel like forev- a very long time (this could age poorly, but hopefully won’t). Hannah, our BFLT. If you’d like to watch this full video on YouTube, click here - http://bit.ly/3JLOd7S 🫖Other Imperfects episodes mentioned in this episode • Origin of the Pink Dildo Story (Tim Minchin - Lucky To Be Here) - https://apple.co/492kgsN • Dr Emily - That Guilty Feeling - http://bit.ly/47BcFmn 🎧Things to listen to • Big Small Talk - http://bit.ly/41fHklq • Brene Brown on Oprah - http://bit.ly/3Jqeit6 📺Things to watch • Hannah’s National Press Club Address - http://bit.ly/4oPN7s8 • Tony Abbott Freeze video - http://bit.ly/3HIW85m • Tony Abbott Onion video - http://bit.ly/3UFCvy3 📖Things to read • Bite Back, by Hannah Ferguson - http://bit.ly/4lyOxEf • Taboo, by Hannah Ferguson - http://bit.ly/4mQrC8D 💻Things to check out • Cheek Media Co. - http://bit.ly/4oM4zO6 🚨If you, or someone you know, has experienced or is at risk of domestic violence, call the 24 hour national counselling service 1800RESPECT (1800 737 732). In an emergency, or if you’re feeling unsafe, call 000. 🩷To host your own Vulnerabilitea House, purchase the Vulnerabilitea House Cards here - http://bit.ly/4lyuuWz 🩵To purchase our journal (or your novel) My Imperfect Life, click here - http://bit.ly/4lyuuWz 🩵To join our patreon community, A Little More Imperfects, follow this link - http://bit.ly/4mqunxu 🩷 AND you can subscribe to A Little More Imperfects through Apple Podcasts too, here - http://bit.ly/4mq5BO5 The Imperfects is not a licensed mental health service and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, treatment or assessment. The advice given in this episode is general in nature, but if you’re struggling, please see a healthcare professional, or call lifeline on 13 11 14.

## Transcript

[0:00] Hannah Ferguson.
[0:01] In Hannah's own words, the most powerful thing we can do is to give a fuck.
[0:05] A lot of young women look at me and they think, oh my God, you have no fear.
[0:09] You just go and say all of your political views and you don't wobble.
[0:13] It's like, that's not where the wobble is.
[0:15] That means the wobble's somewhere else and it's big.
[0:17] Being scared of sex and of intimacy and affection and not really ever seeing myself as desirable.
[0:22] I've never had the kind of view that someone would actively want to date me.
[0:27] What did you learn about love from the way you were cared for as a child?
[0:30] Even my heart is racing now because I can just feel myself back there.
[0:35] They were very like, this is our special child who has a special academic ability.
[0:40] I was a party trick.
[0:41] Hey, Lorraine, check this out.
[0:43] 10 times 12.
[0:44] Tell them.
[0:47] Is anyone protecting you?
[0:48] No, and the weight of it is so heavy.
[0:54] What if your siblings were killed by your own parent and you didn't stop it?
[1:01] Grab yourself a cup.
[1:04] This is The Vulnerability House.
[1:12] This is already, I'm going to call this a top five pre-interview hangout.
[1:20] Oh, that's huge.
[1:21] Even top three?
[1:24] Well, thanks for showing me up, Josh.
[1:26] Thank you, Josh.
[1:27] I'm not sure if I'm allowed to talk right now, but I'm going to.
[1:29] You absolutely can talk whenever, Hannah.
[1:31] Yes, top five or top three pre-show hangouts, Hugh, do you think?
[1:35] It's been raucous, I would say it's been raucous.
[1:37] And anything that's raucous is good.
[1:39] As the saying goes.
[1:40] Well, on a serious note, it is such a privilege to meet you.
[1:47] It is.
[1:48] Thank you.
[1:49] We're thrilled to bits.
[1:50] Thank you, my assumed friends.
[1:51] Talking about assumed friendships, I was saying before that this is the only podcast I listen to.
[1:56] So then I was like, these are my friends from my reels and my ears.
[2:01] And Ryan, you astutely pointed out that it is probably mildly concerning if anyone I follow on Instagram is my assumed friend.
[2:06] No, I think that's a really healthy approach, actually.
[2:09] But you three?
[2:11] Friends.
[2:12] Yeah, and probably, like, I wouldn't say top five.
[2:15] That would be probably unfair to...
[2:16] Oh, in all seriousness though, now that we've met, like you would have a lot of friends.
[2:21] Where would I rank?
[2:25] We've shared some good times.
[2:26] We have in the last half an hour.
[2:28] Should we also do a start of episode ranking and an end of episode ranking?
[2:32] Yes.
[2:32] And I'll rank all of you and we'll see how the transitions work.
[2:35] God, imagine if we went lower.
[2:41] I'm going to say let's start in, like, top 50 range.
[2:44] That's great.
[2:45] Yeah, let's strong.
[2:46] Kate, I'm very happy with top 50.
[2:48] Well done.
[2:49] Well done, Ryan.
[2:49] Thanks.
[2:50] Thanks.
[2:50] Ryan only.
[2:51] You two.
[2:52] Let's look at that.
[2:56] Well, it's an interesting area to start with when you consider the opening line of the bio here is that in Hannah's own words, the most powerful thing we can do is to give a fuck.
[3:06] Hannah grew up in Orange, New South Wales with two younger siblings during a field trip to Parliament House.
[3:11] A 10-year-old Hannah, I love this so much, a 10-year-old Hannah sat in the press gallery and cried, overwhelmed by the beauty and energy of the room, completely sure that one day she would become Prime Minister.
[3:21] Loser.
[3:22] Absolutely.
[3:24] I think we're still on track.
[3:27] Hannah moved to Brisbane to pursue a law degree, not because she was particularly interested in becoming a lawyer, but because it seemed like the thing that smart people with good marks did.
[3:36] Hannah's first job was at the Office of Director of Public Prosecutions, where she became completely disillusioned by Australia's justice system.
[3:43] In November 2020, at just 22 years of age, Hannah co-founded Cheek Media,
[3:49] Where does the name Cheek come from, by the way?
[3:51] I think the idea is that it's fun, it's cheeky, but it also gives a shit about young people's opinions.
[3:55] So like bringing back the fun of it, even though it's actually serious political opinions.
[3:59] Yeah.
[3:59] Okay.
[4:00] Just 22 years of age.
[4:02] That is nuts.
[4:04] Crazy.
[4:04] Yeah.
[4:05] Cheek Media is designed to engage audiences, especially youth, in meaningful and nuanced discourse, hoping to shift the media landscape.
[4:12] In 2023, Hannah launched Big Small Talk, a weekly podcast that she co-hosts, which aimed to cover the entirety of the news cycle, and a mere months later published Bite Back, Feminism, Media, Politics and Our Power to Change It All.
[4:26] Just over a year later, Hannah published Taboo, Conversations We Never Had About Sex, Body Image, Work and Relationships.
[4:32] An influential voice of young Australian voters in the latest election, Hannah was invited to deliver the National Press Club address following election result.
[4:40] I watched that this morning and...
[4:42] Don't stop listening to this episode, but after this episode, go and watch that because it was, I think prolific was what I was thinking.
[4:49] I was like, this is prolific.
[4:50] It was really great.
[4:51] Thank you.
[4:52] And I imagine that's a hard thing to do, like when you're planning that, what you're going to say, how you're going to say it, rehearsing it and then to actually get up and deliver it like you did.
[5:01] I hope you feel very proud of that because it was really special.
[5:03] Thank you.
[5:05] In other business ventures, Hannah has collaborated twice with its normal to release the plum and cheek vibrators.
[5:10] Little known fact.
[5:11] Hugh has one.
[5:13] Hugh has both.
[5:15] Top drawer, bedside table.
[5:21] Never leave home without it.
[5:23] Little secret, how do I get through the episodes on the Imperfects?
[5:30] How do I keep engaged?
[5:32] Stimulated?
[5:37] No, but just I think it's important to establish common ground.
[5:40] I am an expert in the pink... Well, not an expert, but in pink dildos.
[5:44] Fuck.
[5:45] Was it?
[5:46] It's a deep...
[5:47] I have one.
[5:48] Sorry, I had one.
[5:48] As a dedicated listener, I do know about this.
[5:50] Thank you for bringing it up.
[5:51] And I'm so conscious of the fact that we'll have so many people listening to this episode and no other episodes.
[5:57] So we need context.
[5:58] Oh, yes.
[6:00] Oh yeah, no I found one on our hard rubbish collection one morning.
[6:03] That was not yours.
[6:04] Someone placed it there.
[6:05] Someone placed it there and we had footage of it and it was fascinating to see the individual drop it off at four in the morning and just place it there.
[6:12] You have a particular skill in giving just enough of an anecdote for it to be really concerning if people don't come in to save you.
[6:18] Oh yes, I'm very lucky.
[6:20] I've got these guys here.
[6:20] It's perfect.
[6:21] You are the perfect comedic talent for that reason.
[6:24] Great job everyone.
[6:25] It's so enjoyable to be a part of.
[6:27] You're spot on, Homer.
[6:30] In your National Press Club address, you started off talking about your career and all the things that you've done.
[6:35] And then it dawned on me you were 26.
[6:37] And I was thinking you have done more.
[6:38] Like I think you've lived a full career.
[6:41] Where does your drive or your energy for doing things that really count and matter, where does that come from?
[6:51] I think I've always been quite comfortable with discomfort.
[6:55] Like a lot of the time people talk about, you know, how do you have the courage to post politically online or why do you have the views that you do?
[7:01] Often when I answer those questions, I fall back on this idea of, oh, you know, it's hard in public spaces to kind of assert your opinion or people troll me or blah blah blah.
[7:09] And I always fall to the negative.
[7:10] But I think ultimately, like every decision I make in my life is driven by the fact that I know I'm never going to regret not having tried the thing.
[7:19] Like I could die tomorrow and go, you did good.
[7:23] You did not leave anything out there.
[7:26] How long have you had that thought process for?
[7:29] That feels like that's something that I, that's sort of like legacy thinking, which I feel like it takes most people, for me particularly, I'd say I'm now 40, in my 40s, and it's taken me up until now to start thinking about that sort of stuff, especially like in my 20s, I was certainly not thinking that.
[7:48] How long have you been thinking like that for?
[7:49] I think...
[7:50] It's less legacy.
[7:51] I think I do consider that in terms of how I grow my business and what I choose to put my time and energy into.
[7:57] But I think it's more this idea of when I'm speaking publicly about an issue, even if people attack me, even if I need to change my mind and correct an error or I've acknowledged that I've made a mistake, I know that I had a crack.
[8:11] And I think I'll always be regretful or embarrassed by the things that I didn't try.
[8:16] than any time I've done something and publicly failed.
[8:19] One of the most interesting compliments, and it doesn't feel like a compliment, but it is, that my psychologist actually said to me recently was, she said, you're really good, you have a high tolerance for public embarrassment.
[8:30] And I thought, what a strange thing to say.
[8:31] That feels like I get embarrassed publicly a lot.
[8:34] You know, what humans are avoiding at all times is humiliation.
[8:38] Humiliation is a great source of shame and facing public humiliation down the barrel and going with something anyway is the hardest thing you'll ever do as a human.
[8:47] And if you can do it once and survive it and continue on,
[8:50] you are like relatively, not untouchable, but able to proceed kind of just keeping on going, knowing, well, I've already experienced that.
[8:57] I felt that very severe kind of community backlash or rejection.
[9:03] And so when I think about like what I've been able to do in my career so far, the thing I'm most proud of is that I am not shut down by the fear of humiliation and that I'm happy to have a go and be wrong.
[9:15] And that will always serve me in terms of whether it's building a legacy or being proud of what I do or where I spend my energy.
[9:21] It's just this tolerance and this threshold for going, it's okay because the biggest failure would just be to never try in the first place.
[9:28] It's amazing to hear that and you're definitely in the right line of work for who you are, obviously, because usually, and this would be for me and it is for so many people, it's like those comments or those attacks, they do hit most people and they do kind of like sink in and then the person that does feel really shamed.
[9:49] They do.
[9:50] And again, it's not to say that I don't feel the hit all the time.
[9:53] Like, I think, you know, again, I've just turned 27.
[9:56] I'm a young woman online that's just... And political opinions open you up to really specific criticism at all levels, from people on the left and the right.
[10:04] And it can be about my appearance.
[10:05] It can be about my personal life.
[10:07] Like, there's no limitations.
[10:09] I think the one thing that gets to me that really always hits
[10:13] And I'm sure maybe you guys feel this in the same space, is that when you're a public person online and you're talking about vulnerable issues, the thing that hits the most is you feel like people are waiting to have a gotcha moment.
[10:26] That they're waiting to see you do something or misstep or fail or to like uncover something about you.
[10:33] And they want you to fall so they can say, I always knew that wasn't a likable person.
[10:38] They were fake, they were lying, and this is who they really are.
[10:42] when that might be your 1% moment where you stepped back from who you really are and the mistake they're pointing out is now the real you that they've unveiled is just like a false start.
[10:52] And so I think the thing that scares me most is that, and especially as a young woman, is like there is so much malicious intent projected onto me, this belief that, like, I can't just care about politics and genuinely want better for the community, like there has to be something behind it.
[11:06] And I'm not like sitting in the control room, like, you know, trying to, I'm not Cruella DeVille.
[11:11] Like, why would I spend all of my days talking about political advocacy and political issues I care about, just watching people in the comments section kind of wait for me to falter so that they can point out that I was always a fraud.
[11:24] So what are they saying?
[11:26] Like, what sort of stuff do you get?
[11:28] I think when you publish a political opinion, especially in a progressive space, often there can be 95% of overlap with people's viewpoints.
[11:37] But the 5% they disagree with means that you're written off for a lot of people.
[11:41] And I don't think this is the majority.
[11:42] I think it's a small minority that make this sort of noise and this sort of disagreement.
[11:46] But I think one of the hardest things being in progressive spaces is that...
[11:50] there is an expectation of perfection a lot of the time over pragmatism.
[11:54] And that can be tough to face because, of course, I'm also striving to have the perfect views, even though I know I never can.
[11:59] But I think that what's hard is that when people are trying to pinpoint your errors or your faults, they're doing so not just on the basis that you've made a mistake or that you're not good enough, but that somehow that makes you... Inherently wrong as a person.
[12:11] Yeah.
[12:12] And I think...
[12:13] I'm always learning and changing my mind.
[12:14] I think that's one of the best things about me is that I'm really willing to have personal interrogation almost too much where I'm suddenly looking at right wing trolls going, and am I the ugliest woman alive?
[12:23] Because, you know, stranger underscore 69 thinks that about me.
[12:26] They got to rethink that handle.
[12:31] I was really trying to do something funnier in the moment, but I just went for 69.
[12:34] It was the best thing I could do, which is pretty fucking humiliating as well.
[12:37] No, no, it's the best number.
[12:38] Thank you.
[12:38] Thank you, Ryan.
[12:39] It's the best number.
[12:39] Thank you.
[12:40] Always will be.
[12:42] Strangely, 96, not funny.
[12:43] No.
[12:46] But it could have been.
[12:47] They could have really done something there.
[12:48] Didn't cook.
[12:49] Yeah.
[12:51] It is such a strange thing that you pinpoint that it's like it has to be that the person is wrong.
[12:57] Like as a human, there's something fundamentally bad about them.
[13:02] I feel like I was in a chat with James who helps us with the show and edits a bit and he was saying there's this tendency he feels like for people to over-intellectualise, like come up with this huge reason why this person's wrong, why they've got all these bad views, write a whole thesis on the evilness of this person and he's like, did you really just not kind of like it?
[13:21] Like at the end of the day it just wasn't your thing what they did or what they said but there's a tendency to over-intellectualise and over-criticise.
[13:29] It's such a strange phenomenon.
[13:30] Yeah.
[13:30] There's a lot of shit flung at people like Abby Chatfield.
[13:34] And I can understand that people might say, I wouldn't have posted that or I wouldn't have done it like that.
[13:38] And I kind of want to say to those people in the audience, you don't have to agree with everything Abby Chatfield posts.
[13:42] She's a good friend of mine.
[13:43] But you probably would never be able to do what she does.
[13:46] And I think that there's a baseline level of respect for the fact that, you know, I don't think people recognize what goes into her work.
[13:51] And until you try doing it, you're probably never going to understand.
[13:54] Yeah.
[13:54] Don't need to think she's the perfect activist or advocate or political commentator or content creator, but she works hard.
[14:00] She does a good job and she does a lot of good things for women.
[14:02] And you don't have to agree with everything to appreciate the value and the hard work and the mindset that goes into that.
[14:08] Yeah.
[14:08] And it comes mostly from women, I would say, too.
[14:11] There's this like real willingness
[14:13] to completely diminish and undermine someone's intellect and value just because they've succeeded.
[14:19] That's awful.
[14:20] Intention seems to be ignored a lot as well.
[14:22] Like the intention behind what someone's doing is like irrelevant if you don't like it.
[14:27] No, totally.
[14:27] I think it's intent versus impact.
[14:29] And I think we can go, well, the impact was bad and therefore that person needs to recognize that regardless of their intention, we need to kind of have an awareness about the gap there.
[14:37] But I think we also need to stop seeing the worst in people and assuming the worst at all times.
[14:41] And intent is something that's important to really reckon with when we're criticizing, canceling, whatever we're doing to someone.
[14:49] I feel like the world is a much worse place because of the comments, the comment section.
[14:53] I feel like if you removed comments from social media, I just felt it could be a much safer, happier, more positive space.
[15:01] Would you agree with that or do you feel the comments are important for correcting what can be problematic views and also influence?
[15:09] I have so many thoughts on comment sections, but I think two of the strongest are.
[15:14] One, if you're listening to this and you are someone like me who watches a video and then before you form your own opinion, you go, I'm going to go to the comments section.
[15:21] That's so familiar.
[15:22] It's so familiar.
[15:23] I do it too.
[15:24] I go, I don't quite know where I sit with this.
[15:26] Often the first five comments have a stronger pull than you'd like to admit as to how you kind of immediately assume your intention or response to a video.
[15:35] And that's problematic because think about the kinds of people who comment.
[15:39] I'm not a serial commenter really.
[15:40] I should comment more on things like I have a platform.
[15:42] It would be more interesting to use comment sections, but I don't.
[15:46] None of my friends use comment sections really.
[15:48] It's only the people who feel of either extreme about any singular video that are really using that comment section.
[15:54] The second thing I think about comment sections is when I post a video or make a sort of static on Instagram, whatever I'm doing, the first five comments will usually dictate the flow of the conversation.
[16:05] Yeah.
[16:06] So if it's controversial or it's a particularly divisive issue, I always look at what those first five are because they will embolden one side usually.
[16:15] because everyone's looking at them for the guide.
[16:17] Yeah, as to whether they're allowed to kind of pile on or not.
[16:20] Maybe you feel neutrally or just slightly one side to something, but a comment section can truly make you feel in an extreme way because social media is designed that way to go, no, no, no, you just don't slightly care.
[16:30] You're really angry now.
[16:31] Yeah, yeah, we can make you angry.
[16:32] I think it's about reining in the fact that, like, you shouldn't allow a random stranger's opinion to kind of dictate your entire flow and how you approach a certain topic just because that was what the mob decided that day.
[16:42] Yeah, I never really thought this before, but how much do you think the pile-on is driven by loneliness?
[16:53] I can extrapolate more.
[16:55] No, I'd like to extrapolate more.
[16:58] I think it'll be good anyway.
[17:00] Well, I think that when you are forced to make up your own mind on stuff and if you feel like your opinion is not what other people are saying, you feel isolated and lonely.
[17:11] But if I can jump in on what's happening here...
[17:13] I'm part of a group at least.
[17:14] Yeah, I think that that's partially true.
[17:16] I know in my own experience, not that I've commented or trolled in particular, but whenever I've allowed one piece of content about someone to sort of define my opinion about them, so not just like commenting and kind of forming a viewpoint against a singular video, but potentially allowing a particular post to define my perception of the person behind it, I know that's always coming from a place of control in that,
[17:40] I think I might have felt out of my own power or sort of like...
[17:45] excluded.
[17:46] So it is, I think, a mixture of isolation or loneliness and control in that I want to kind of take back control in the scenario with the thing I disagree with in my relationship to it.
[17:55] And by finding community and expressing like hatred or a level of anger, that is kind of regaining a sense of control in my own life against something.
[18:04] And I think so many people in the current age find control and community not in things they're passionate about, but things they're collectively opposed to.
[18:13] And it's just not that interesting, is it?
[18:15] No.
[18:15] And it's got a long-term consequence, I think.
[18:17] Yeah.
[18:18] Gee, that's really scarily true.
[18:21] We are in a vulnerability house.
[18:23] We're in it.
[18:24] I totally forgot that we were doing a tea house just now.
[18:27] So we have the cards here.
[18:29] Yeah, for people who are joining us for the first time, the Vulnerability House is a type of episode we do where we have a deck of cards.
[18:36] And on each card, there's a different question for the guest.
[18:39] And that question will hopefully invoke some sort of like vulnerable story or feeling or something.
[18:47] And we encourage you to pick the three cards on the top.
[18:50] And if any of those cards can speak to you, then please answer.
[18:55] So the three I have, the first one is, what did you learn about love from the way you were cared for as a child?
[19:01] Good, really good.
[19:03] The second is, what character traits do you worry people will see in you?
[19:06] It's a bit of an ouch, isn't it?
[19:09] You know, immediately.
[19:10] And the third is, where is home for you?
[19:14] I think I'd like to go with the first one.
[19:17] What did you learn about love from the way you were cared for as a child?
[19:21] It's a really good question.
[19:22] It's a big question.
[19:23] Yeah.
[19:24] I can take this one if you want.
[19:25] Thank you.
[19:26] Thank you for offering because I was sort of overwhelmed by the mountain we had to climb.
[19:29] No, I've got a bit of stuff on this.
[19:34] Yeah.
[19:34] What comes to mind with that?
[19:37] I think, you know, a lot of people who might follow me online or know my work would assume a certain background of the kind of person I am.
[19:45] Like I think someone who goes to law school and works in media and has political opinions is probably assumed to have come from a particular kind of...
[19:54] Area, experience, institution, something.
[19:58] I actually think one of the most interesting things about me is my parents.
[20:02] Because my parents are two really different people.
[20:05] My mum is, she's actually a bra fitter in regional New South Wales.
[20:11] She works in Orange and she goes to schools.
[20:12] I didn't know that was a job.
[20:13] No, I didn't either.
[20:14] I think she created it basically.
[20:16] Because there was no bra shops in the regional area I grew up in.
[20:19] And she- That sounds like a fictional job that a 13 year old boy would apply for.
[20:25] I love that too.
[20:27] And you know what?
[20:28] They've been applying, Ryan.
[20:29] Yeah.
[20:30] She hasn't hired them.
[20:31] For obvious reasons, thank God.
[20:32] That's a good call.
[20:33] Yeah.
[20:34] I mean, minimum wage, they would be cheap, but still, that's too young.
[20:37] Too young.
[20:38] Way too young.
[20:41] But my mum is amazing.
[20:42] Her name's Philippa.
[20:43] And Philippa is amazing in that she travels to high schools around regional New South Wales and fits girls for sports bras so they can stay in athletics or stay in rugby.
[20:53] And it's becoming like a bigger thing to keep girls in sport.
[20:56] And then she works in regional towns with women who've had mastectomies with fittings for new bras that have, you know, different prosthetics.
[21:04] And so she's just an amazing lady.
[21:05] It's a small business in a regional area.
[21:08] And she's like an operational whiz.
[21:10] Like my mom is admin queen.
[21:11] She is meticulous.
[21:12] Yeah.
[21:13] And my dad, his name's Michael, and he is like a six foot five rugby guy.
[21:18] My dad is like the masculine Australian man to end all others.
[21:21] He's a truck driver in Queensland.
[21:23] He was in the Navy.
[21:23] He left school in year nine.
[21:25] Like he is true middle class rugby Australian man.
[21:28] Ever been in the bra fitting business?
[21:30] No.
[21:31] He tried a bit.
[21:32] No, no.
[21:34] But I think it's important to say from the outset that my parents are the most supportive people of the work that I do and have really come along on a journey and been forced to come a long way on that journey too.
[21:44] So I grew up between South West Sydney, which is a low socioeconomic area where I went to primary school, and then I was in Orange when I was a toddler and when I was in high school.
[21:52] So we've moved around quite a bit.
[21:54] And when I was at the end of year 11, my parents separated.
[21:59] And I have a younger brother and sister, who their names are Max and Kate, and my brother is 21 and my sister is 19.
[22:05] So there's a bit of an age gap.
[22:07] I'm very much like a third parental figure in their lives, which is really beautiful.
[22:11] Also type A, eldest daughter, parentified, all of the things that make a young woman start a business when she's 22 that's a media company.
[22:19] Yeah, that's interesting.
[22:21] Yeah, and I think...
[22:24] one of the most important stories to tell around my upbringing.
[22:29] Because my parents, I think, the best thing about them was that from the moment I was born, I was kind of treated as a little adult that was worthy of attention and time and respectful conversations or any question I ever asked.
[22:42] was met with a genuine answer.
[22:43] Any political question, any social question.
[22:47] I asked how babies were made when I was three and they told me.
[22:50] You know, like my parents just kind of were like, she's asking and, you know, she deserves to know.
[22:54] She deserves to have that respect given to her as a person.
[22:57] And I think that that's, you know, what has led me to this path is that I was always kind of given the space to just be exactly who I was because my parents saw me as like a little freak
[23:08] as they were not interested really in politics.
[23:10] And they were like, why is this 10 year old coming home and asking about Pauline Hanson?
[23:15] So they weren't interested in politics at all.
[23:17] No, I mean, they were political people.
[23:19] I think another funny thing is that my parents are conservative voters.
[23:23] They were Tony Abbott supporters.
[23:25] They used to say, used to say, Pauline Hanson says what everyone's thinking.
[23:29] And now they're progressive voters.
[23:31] Oh.
[23:32] But when I was, you know, 13, I went with my dad after netball to vote in an election.
[23:37] And as much as he's a conservative voter, he did come home from voting and mum said, oh, how did you order your ballot?
[23:43] And he told her and mum said...
[23:45] Michael, that's the Labour candidate.
[23:47] Horrible.
[23:48] And my dad said, but they had the better policies.
[23:50] I read the cards and was disgusted with himself because he had voted genuinely on the basis of his values, not with his assumed party.
[23:59] So I think that that's like really interesting things that I witnessed when I was growing up.
[24:03] And my parents were just always just willing to talk to me about politics and any issue.
[24:08] But then when they split up when I was going into year 12, so 2015, 2016, my dad became incredibly mentally unwell.
[24:18] He was like quite suicidal during this time period.
[24:20] And as his like closest person for a lot of that time as his eldest daughter, who were just really great mates.
[24:26] We've always been really great mates.
[24:28] He's the life of the party.
[24:29] He's the person that I get all of my charisma from.
[24:31] He's funny.
[24:32] People want to be around him.
[24:34] I was just shattered because my parents' marriage had fallen apart.
[24:38] I was a little nerd who wanted to get a 95 ATAR.
[24:41] And I was so sick of them being so annoying on the phone during this time period.
[24:45] But my dad was ringing me saying, like, I'm going to kill myself.
[24:49] Oh, shit.
[24:50] And again, I love my dad.
[24:52] We have a great relationship now, but I was 17 and I was just
[24:57] It's like even my heart is racing now because I can just feel myself back there just being a 17 year old.
[25:04] And I remember that Christmas, my brother, who would have been 12 at the time, rang me.
[25:09] We were staying separately.
[25:11] One was with my mum, one was with dad.
[25:12] And he rang me and he said, is dad going to die?
[25:17] And I just said to him, I was like.
[25:20] I can't promise you, like I'm your sister, but you just need to have a good Christmas with him.
[25:25] Like I just was trying to parent these two young children and be so present and honest with them in the same way my parents were honest with me.
[25:35] And then when I went to university, I think one of the hardest things was I moved to Brisbane.
[25:41] I couldn't stay in Orange for university, but it meant I was leaving my siblings with a divorced set of parents.
[25:48] And dad was not responding well to the divorce and was not really getting help.
[25:53] And there were police involved and there was lots of custody battles.
[25:56] And it was just a horrible, horrible time.
[25:58] And I did really well at school.
[26:00] I put all of my energy into my marks.
[26:01] I got the ATAR I wanted.
[26:03] I got a scholarship to study law in Queensland.
[26:05] I moved to Brisbane where my dad was living at the time because I really wanted him to be near someone.
[26:11] Again, the saviour complex was there.
[26:13] I was like, I am the child that's going to move and save dad.
[26:16] Dad didn't want us to be saved.
[26:17] There was no need for me to take on that responsibility.
[26:19] It was not pressured, but that was my best mate.
[26:22] Like I really wanted him to be okay.
[26:25] Sorry to do this.
[26:26] I'm just trying to imagine myself at your age, I tried to take that phone call.
[26:33] Do you have memory of what you said back to him or did you feel pressure to say the right thing?
[26:36] Did you feel like in that moment, if I say the right thing, this could save his life?
[26:40] I did feel that pressure.
[26:43] I remember, and this is probably a horrible thing to say, but I remember thinking like there'd been a few calls and I remember thinking like, am I supposed to just let him make his decision?
[26:53] Like, I can't carry the responsibility of him being alive every day.
[27:00] I also was having thoughts that were problematic that were like, is he just trying to get my attention?
[27:06] Because it is a cry for help in one sense, but the reality and the gravity of what was the next hour, minute, day look like was weighing on me.
[27:17] But he was also, and my dad will absolutely say this, he was also not being kind to my mum in the aftermath.
[27:25] So I was also very protective of my mother in that scenario too, where I was like, my dad is the bad guy in my view at this time period and he's unwell, but he's also posing intimidation.
[27:37] Mm-hmm.
[27:38] And sort of weighing up who to be there for and how to help and help everyone cope and facilitate that dynamic was just stressful to me.
[27:48] Is it too much to ask what do you mean by intimidation or like...
[27:51] Yeah, I just mean that my dad was not physically abusive, but he is an imposing guy, he's a big guy.
[27:59] And there was a time period where he was just begging my mum to take him back and would turn up at the house and unannounced and would sort of, that is intimidation, you know?
[28:07] There was a level of like, he no longer had control of his life.
[28:11] My dad grew up in an incredibly abusive environment under his dad and his desire always was to be the father that his dad never was.
[28:21] And he was completely different.
[28:22] He did not abuse us.
[28:24] He was a good present father.
[28:26] And again, I love my dad so much when I say all of these things.
[28:30] But when I think it came down to it, what I realized through that divorce process for my parents was that my dad was deeply wounded by the fact that he was trying to course correct and have the perfect family.
[28:42] And that was shattered.
[28:43] He couldn't.
[28:44] correct what had happened with his parents.
[28:47] And so it was an ego hit.
[28:49] It was a lack of control.
[28:51] And the thing that he had desired to make his life centred around failed.
[28:55] And what does reshaping that look like?
[28:57] So I have so much understanding and empathy for what that year must have been like.
[29:03] But when you're 17 and you want to go partying on the weekend and just have a group of friends and have year 12 and go to university, suddenly your parents are your children in your mind because you're just caring for them and hoping the pots don't boil over.
[29:17] When you're, as you said, trying to protect your mum and you're looking out for your dad, is anyone protecting you?
[29:25] No, and I was incredibly avoidant of accepting help at that time.
[29:32] My mum had tried to get me to see a psychologist.
[29:34] I had refused to.
[29:37] I didn't tell school.
[29:40] It was actually awful.
[29:41] I remember my year advisor, a couple of my friends had had parents divorce in the same year.
[29:45] And they had told him that the school knew and he would go in and do check-ins.
[29:49] And he used to just yell at me in the hallway when I wouldn't get out of his way.
[29:52] And I just thought, if you knew what was going on at home, you'd never speak to me like that.
[29:56] And you'd come and do check-ins.
[29:59] But it almost made me angry that he just wasn't kind to everyone.
[30:02] Yeah.
[30:03] And so I would almost sort of not tell on that basis.
[30:06] Almost like I don't want your pity.
[30:08] I don't want you to change your tune because you know something sad about my life.
[30:11] And I just wanted to succeed.
[30:13] I was so determined to get the marks.
[30:16] I did every extension subject.
[30:18] I did like 16 essays for my HSC.
[30:19] I'm such a little nerd about it because I was just like so determined to prove my worth through academia.
[30:25] Unfortunately, that proving worth through success and formal metrics like that stayed with me and still is with me.
[30:32] But I remember at the time, like I was so unwilling to accept help.
[30:35] And it was just my friendship group.
[30:37] Really, it was my peers that I still have my two best friends from high school are still two of my best friends.
[30:42] So you did tell them.
[30:43] Yeah, they knew.
[30:44] My friend group knew.
[30:45] Yeah, okay.
[30:46] Was there someone, like in terms of you wanting to prove yourself, I don't know if you said prove yourself, but that's sort of along those lines.
[30:55] Was there someone you were trying to prove yourself to?
[30:58] I think I'm just competitive.
[30:59] I think that I had a really strong group of friends who were all incredibly intellectual.
[31:04] And it was almost for me, like, I didn't want to lag in terms of my results because I wanted to prove that despite what was happening in my personal life, I didn't lose a point.
[31:13] You know, like that sort of grunt, like, it's not healthy.
[31:17] But I also look back on that time and I had a lot of fun too.
[31:21] I worked a part-time job.
[31:22] I supported myself.
[31:24] I went out on weekends because I was 18 for most of my year 12.
[31:27] Like I really had a great time.
[31:30] But I think it was that competitive edge of I'm going to get out of here and I'm going to make something of my life that was really just the driving force.
[31:38] Was that competitiveness and sort of need to
[31:42] be somewhat perfect in schooling.
[31:45] Do you think that was there before things started to unravel in the family life?
[31:50] That was always there.
[31:51] I think from the moment I started school...
[31:54] I think because neither of my parents went to university, I'm the first in my family to go.
[31:59] From the age that I was five or six, I was sort of told that I was the high achiever in class.
[32:06] And because my parents were kind of surprised by this because they aren't particularly intellectual people, they were very like, this is our special child who has a special academic ability.
[32:17] And there's a level of pressure that comes from that, but pride, I was a party trick.
[32:21] And they love me and they were like, look at our kid that keeps holding up awards.
[32:24] Like, you know, at assembly and we keep getting invited.
[32:27] We're so annoyed we have work, you know.
[32:29] Hey, Lorraine, check this out.
[32:31] 10 times 12.
[32:32] Tell them.
[32:36] That was how it was.
[32:37] I mean, when I decided I wanted to be prime minister when I was 10, it was actually because I'd gone to the electoral commission.
[32:43] I saw the Senate ballot and I was like, that's really something.
[32:47] And my parents, I got home from this school excursion to Canberra, we went to Questacom, we did the snow, it was everything.
[32:53] And I got home, my parents had been like, so it's 400 bucks for this camp, like whatever.
[32:56] I was in year four.
[32:57] It was a tiny school.
[32:58] They had to send year four to even get it over the line.
[33:00] I get home at 10, I'm eating my mashed potato and my parents go, how was it?
[33:04] I go...
[33:06] Oh, the electoral commission, I learned about preferential voting.
[33:08] And they go, oh, Jesus Christ, what?
[33:11] And they thought I was lying.
[33:12] They thought I meant Cuesta Cod.
[33:13] They went to the school principal the next day and they said, is she telling the truth?
[33:17] And they said, yeah, she was really weird about the electoral commission.
[33:20] And so at every family barbecue for the next 12 months, they were like, go on, tell them.
[33:23] So what you're saying.
[33:25] Tell them about the voting thing.
[33:28] Tell them about the voting system.
[33:30] They were like, tell them what you think about Tony Abbott.
[33:31] And I was like, oh, he's a fuckwit.
[33:33] And I'm still right about that.
[33:37] Still provided one of the greatest internet videos of all time.
[33:40] Thank you, Onion Tony.
[33:41] It's incredible.
[33:42] It is incredible.
[33:42] I was thinking of the other one, the one where he freezes.
[33:44] Oh, the freeze video is also particularly good.
[33:46] Onion and freeze.
[33:47] I mean, that's haunting.
[33:48] Yeah, that is a bit too.
[33:50] That's haunting.
[33:50] The Onion one is at least like the timing.
[33:53] Everything is perfect.
[33:54] It's stunning work.
[33:55] My mind did split between the two.
[33:57] I do love the Freeze video.
[33:59] I don't think it's haunting.
[33:59] It was wonderful.
[34:00] He's not saying anything.
[34:03] He's just not going to talk.
[34:04] I don't know who the Jono was, but you're not saying anything, Tony.
[34:06] It's unbelievable.
[34:08] Absolute blank.
[34:09] Anyway, that's a real sidestep.
[34:11] And who would think that he wouldn't even make the top 10 weirdest world leaders?
[34:18] It's a sad state of affairs.
[34:23] So, yeah, always a bit of a freak at school, always competitive, always driven.
[34:29] But I think harnessing that was really important.
[34:32] Then when I got to university, first year, I'm 18, and it kind of unravels in that I start partying five days a week and having the best time, but I no longer care about the academic metrics.
[34:45] I immediately get to law school and think, this is a group of private school kids with barrister parents or VC fund parents who will dictate...
[34:54] laws in this country who will dictate the systems of power that they will never kind of be on the other side of.
[34:59] And I was sort of just partying and working my way through the year, trying to ignore my parents a lot of the time and what was happening.
[35:04] Did you feel in that environment, did you feel like an outcast?
[35:08] Yeah, I did.
[35:09] And again, saying that from a white privileged perspective still, I can't even imagine what it would have felt like as a person of colour, a person with a disability, like those like compounding marginalisations would have been an entirely different experience to mine.
[35:22] But it was just this sort of elitist system.
[35:25] And it was so stark.
[35:26] I thought, why am I here besides the fact that it's the impressive thing to do?
[35:31] And then halfway through the year, I'm going to go back to Orange to see my mum, my brother and my sister and like attend some birthday parties of friends.
[35:40] And my dad's still quite unwell at this time.
[35:43] And I go home for a few days, planning to be there for five or six days.
[35:47] And on the second day, my mum says, could you come and meet Max and Kate's child psychologist, my brother and sister's psychologist?
[35:56] And I said, yeah, sure.
[35:57] And I thought she was kind of just going to pressure me to see a psych again.
[35:59] And I thought, oh, that's fine.
[36:01] I'm kind of ready to be doing that now.
[36:03] And I went to see the psychologist and Max and Kate sat outside the room.
[36:07] And the psychologist and mum sat me down.
[36:10] And my brother and sister was supposed to go and visit my dad in Queensland for a week and I was going to stay in Orange.
[36:16] And they were going to meet halfway, pass the kids over in the car and do the transfer.
[36:21] And the psychologist and my mum sat me down and said, we're worried your dad might murder your brother and sister.
[36:30] What?
[36:32] And we think you should go with them because he sees you as an adult and therefore a guardian.
[36:38] And that's one of the biggest preventers of this kind of murder, suicide, violent behaviour.
[36:45] Oh my God.
[36:45] Yeah.
[36:46] What, what, what were the, I mean, that feels like a really big jump.
[36:50] I mean, obviously a lot has happened since when you were 17 to then, but that, was that a huge shock to you to hear that?
[36:58] I think in the moment it was.
[36:59] I mean, for any 18 year old to be tasked with the saving of multiple lives in that scenario.
[37:06] And there's so many layers to that because in the first instance, I don't believe my dad would have done that.
[37:13] But the severity of the claim means that immediately you start questioning yourself.
[37:19] And I'm upset with my mum, but that's also the wrong target of that emotion.
[37:24] My dad isn't the right target necessarily, but what I'm feeling in my body is ultimately as an 18 year old, a betrayal.
[37:30] I wanna go to these parties and hang out with my friends.
[37:32] And now the weight of your children, my siblings, their lives has been put on my shoulders.
[37:39] And I looked at my mum
[37:42] And I said, I don't want to go.
[37:44] That's not going to happen.
[37:47] And she said to me, what if you don't go and it does?
[37:51] Oh, my God.
[37:54] And I say that and it's so important for people listening, for everyone to understand, like, I love my mum and dad.
[38:00] And if you were my mum in that scenario and genuinely fearful, you can understand.
[38:04] Like as a 27 year old now, I can understand.
[38:07] I can absolutely understand.
[38:08] And, you know, I've written about this in my book and I got both of my parents to sign off on it.
[38:13] And the first time my dad actually heard that this happened was when I had to get him to sign off on it.
[38:18] And I, they both, I think actually it's quite incredible that they both were so willing to consent to this being made public, given what it communicates.
[38:29] What did your dad say when he saw that?
[38:30] He was upset, but obviously from his perspective, he was like, but I never would have done that.
[38:35] So it's, ironically, both of them thought the other was at fault, you know, which is hard to sit with too, because you're kind of like, well, I think there's some personal interrogation on both parts that needs to occur.
[38:46] But from my perspective,
[38:48] Of course, it's an incredibly important story because it communicates how I have learned to love and care for other people.
[38:58] But as an 18-year-old, having that put on you by a psychologist who was also concerned and my mum, who was right to be fearful, my siblings didn't know until it was published in the book.
[39:12] It's such a private moment and it's such a vulnerable one, but...
[39:17] I think I see it in all of the relationships I've had romantically throughout my life of from that moment forward, it was absolutely, how do I never ever end up in a situation where I put myself or a child through this?
[39:32] And how is violence and fear like this so normalized in our society that this is such a regular occurrence?
[39:39] I don't think that this is a story that is particularly unique.
[39:43] I think it's a horrible scenario.
[39:46] But, you know, I'm immediately transported back to feeling like an 18-year-old who just like, I love my parents so much.
[39:52] But it's so, the weight of it is so heavy, of that moment of being told like, what if your siblings were killed by your own parent and you didn't stop it?
[40:06] Yeah.
[40:07] Did you go with your siblings that day?
[40:09] Yeah.
[40:10] I did.
[40:11] And we did all have gastro in the car, Hugh.
[40:13] Oh, well, that was my next question.
[40:14] Sorry, I try to like crack a joke because I cannot hold it for too long, but we did all have poisoning from a burrito.
[40:19] So it made it really more magical to leave orange, be in the car.
[40:22] Nothing went wrong.
[40:23] Everything was fine.
[40:24] We had a lovely trip together.
[40:26] I did miss out on the birthday parties.
[40:28] We did all have gastro.
[40:30] But it was fine.
[40:31] And my dad, I think it's important to say, my dad is one of the most progressively voting thinking people I know now who went and saw a psychologist who now is in a very happy relationship.
[40:43] Both of my parents are now in very happy other relationships and have been for years.
[40:48] And I think it's important to say that
[40:52] both of them, when talking about this with me, have been so willing to be like, as long as you're telling the truth, please feel free to share this, which is so powerful and such a true sign of progress and development, I think.
[41:07] Because I remember when I was writing this in my book too, one of the things my publishers immediately said to me was, we're worried about what your followers or readers are going to think of your existing relationship with your dad, like that they'll judge you for it.
[41:22] And I think that's a funny question because it's not really anyone's business, the relationship I have with my parents.
[41:30] But I think it's a reflection of, you know, I would understand why anyone in my scenario would not talk to a parent, both of them potentially after an occurrence like this.
[41:40] But for me personally, the question is always, what are we asking for when we criticize someone or ask for their development, their pivot, their progress?
[41:50] I think so many people in Australia, the stats indicate that, you know, one in three, one in five when it comes to sexual violence, domestic violence, like violence of all kinds is so normalised in our society.
[42:01] Mental health issues are so present that we're not far away from a story like this when we're talking to anyone.
[42:08] And we're allowed to cut people off.
[42:10] I'm not shaming anyone for doing or not doing that.
[42:13] But for me personally, the question is always going to be, how can my relationship grow and improve?
[42:18] And how can this person show me that they've changed?
[42:20] And how can I change as well?
[42:22] And so it's so important for me to always sit with like, how does this show up in my relationships?
[42:28] How do I show up?
[42:28] How have I failed?
[42:30] And what do I want from my parents in our continuing relationship?
[42:33] So I did clearly so much love between you and your parents.
[42:37] Has there been a moment where either of them has had an opportunity to apologize for those moments that took place or what was the responsibility that was given to you when it really shouldn't have been?
[42:49] Has there been an opportunity for apology?
[42:51] Yeah, when I...
[42:52] I think actually when I was publishing Taboo, the book that this story is featured in, my mum was so upset.
[42:58] She was so distressed and she called me just sobbing.
[43:00] She was like, I am so sorry that you were put through that.
[43:04] And it's hard because I am angry.
[43:06] It's so fair to hold anger and upset still about being put in that scenario because that will never leave me.
[43:14] But I can also understand as a mum exactly why that happened.
[43:17] And so I said to her, like...
[43:19] It's not that these things need to happen to me for me to now be the person that I am.
[43:24] I don't want to incite this idea that trauma makes someone more aware or emotionally intelligent or successful and that's like a piece of the puzzle.
[43:31] But I am who I am today and I have the political approach and I do the work that I do because these experiences have shaped who I am and how I think about people.
[43:41] And so my mum's upset is fair.
[43:44] I'm glad she apologised.
[43:45] I think that's so important, but I don't want her to feel guilty for doing the right thing in her own way.
[43:50] You know?
[43:50] With all the information she had at the time.
[43:51] Absolutely.
[43:52] Completely makes sense.
[43:53] Yeah.
[43:54] But I do think that apology is really important.
[43:56] It is important.
[43:57] Yeah.
[43:58] Yeah.
[43:58] It's crucial because it's like your great episode with Dr. Emily, I was listening to you the other day, talking about guilt and the idea that guilt is a signal to take action and improve.
[44:09] And that's what she was doing.
[44:10] And that's like, again, when I'm reflecting on what I would like in that scenario, what I would like is a genuine apology and a changed behaviour.
[44:18] And that's what that was.
[44:20] Wow.
[44:21] The thing, and this is all, this is so fascinating.
[44:26] The one thing that I've just, that it keeps popping back into my head is, what are you talking about as a teenager, as a school kid, basically, is your competitiveness?
[44:38] Like, this is just to say that your intent is obviously like...
[44:41] It's undeniable.
[44:42] Like in everything you do, it's unbelievable what you do.
[44:46] But do you think, do you still feel a sense of competitiveness in your work life now?
[44:53] Is that something that you still...
[44:55] I think that's a really good question because I do.
[44:58] I think we all do.
[44:59] There's a level of like when you are good at something and I feel like I am good at political commentary and forming views and challenging myself and others and also building community.
[45:09] There is going to be a sense of looking at others in the space and it's less now like how can I beat them?
[45:14] That's not really the driver.
[45:15] It's what can I learn from them that I can implement and how can I kind of
[45:21] find new ways and new people that inspire me to kind of raise the bar.
[45:25] I think I compete with myself now.
[45:27] But I think that's a good question because often when you feel competitive or when you feel jealous of someone, it can often then, what we're talking about before with this idea of fraud or intention and people wanting to get a gotcha moment with you, sometimes even having thoughts of competition makes you feel like maybe you don't have the best intentions and that you aren't a great person.
[45:50] But I think it's also natural to have that instinct to want to do better, to grow, and having to sit with myself and go, it is okay to have these desires that sit alongside good intent.
[46:00] Yeah, but it is a tricky balance.
[46:03] I find that, especially with this podcast, because the space that you take up is very unique in your world.
[46:10] And I think like what we do is also similarly, like very different to what you do, obviously.
[46:15] But as far as like being three guys talking about mental health, you know, in a podcast, there's not really many things, at least in Australia, that I can think of that are like it.
[46:25] I'll triple M footy.
[46:27] That's true.
[46:29] That's true.
[46:30] Sorry, Stan corrected.
[46:31] But I do sometimes think it's like, oh, God, if three guys started another podcast doing similar things, what I should feel is like, oh, that's great.
[46:43] That's so good.
[46:45] Because like if they're good at what they're doing and they're reaching an audience and they're putting more positivity into the world and helping people, that is a good thing.
[46:52] But I can't help.
[46:53] I think that's what you'd say.
[46:54] That's what I would say publicly.
[46:57] But I couldn't, I can't help but think that I would feel like shit.
[47:01] No.
[47:02] Who the fuck are these guys?
[47:05] I think in my world, the way this shows up is when I read a lot of like traditional journalism, but really good long form, like investigative journalism or like indie media, and I see like really robust, robust pieces, I go, I could never write that.
[47:19] Mm-hmm.
[47:19] The way it shows up is always directly correlated to my imposter syndrome and that it's always coming from like, oh, I don't even know how to do that or I'm not a good enough writer to do that.
[47:29] The space I occupy, I feel confident in my worry or my sort of bad feelings come up when I think maybe the journalists that I really respect think I'm shit for what I do.
[47:38] Yeah.
[47:39] It's that kind of do they look down on me because I'm doing Instagram reels and they're not particularly profound or sophisticated in their message.
[47:47] But I've got to come back to, well, what is the intention of what I do?
[47:50] The intention of what I do is to provide a service to people who are looking to get more politically literate and engaged and to maybe see how they think in relation to an issue.
[47:58] I'm not claiming to offer a 3,000-word piece on Harvey Weinstein.
[48:01] I'm claiming to kind of unpack in a digestible way and make something engaging for someone who once didn't care.
[48:07] And so I think coming back to like,
[48:08] just understanding what's your objective rather than trying to beat everyone at a game that you're not even actually in.
[48:14] But that's such a great distinction because I think that would be quite common and it's certainly true for me.
[48:20] I'm constantly thinking about like any time an opportunity comes up or something that I'm going to do, I do think, oh, what are the people that I admire?
[48:29] What are they going to think about this?
[48:30] And if I worry that they're going to think it's lame or whatever, then I'll go, oh, I don't know.
[48:35] They're going to judge me.
[48:36] They're going to think
[48:39] But he's so right.
[48:40] If you stick to, like, what is true for you and if the intent is good and right, they might love it or they might not, but who cares?
[48:51] I also think when it comes back to that, all of the people I respect and admire most and have those fears about are usually the people that are kindest when I actually interact with them.
[48:59] That proves how strong your fear and shame mechanisms are when you realise the gap between like the story you were able to tell yourself.
[49:07] Like I think it's a Brene Brown thing.
[49:10] It's always a Brene Brown thing, isn't it?
[49:15] She talks about like the story I'm telling myself is, and it's often a way for me, you know, when it might've been dating in my early twenties or something, if I assume someone didn't like me because of how I looked or they weren't replying because I said something weird on a date or something.
[49:30] It's always like I'm telling myself a story so that I can regain a sense of control.
[49:34] If I can say this person I admire hates me or doesn't respect me or thinks I'm shit or this person I'm dating thinks I'm ugly, it's the easiest way to connect the dots and go case closed.
[49:44] I'm back in the driver's seat.
[49:46] I know what that is and I'm putting that on the shelf.
[49:48] But it's not.
[49:49] You're just trying to prepare yourself for all the worst outcomes because you think that if you've already thought of all the bad things, you've protected yourself from them.
[49:56] But ultimately, in all of the work I do, every single day you're putting yourself out there and exposing yourself to that kind of judgment.
[50:03] And often the story you've told yourself is not helpful at all, because then when you meet the person, they're extremely kind, you go, I've actually made you out to be my sworn enemy.
[50:13] And we like each other.
[50:14] I respect your work.
[50:15] I just want to be your mate.
[50:16] But I've been so sure that you wouldn't respect me that I kind of shelved the potential there and closed the door on myself.
[50:21] Yeah.
[50:22] Are there any examples you can share that that's... Like Mel Bracewell or...?
[50:26] Thank God you brought up Mel Bracewell.
[50:27] So everyone, as a six foot two brunette woman.
[50:32] And netballer?
[50:32] And netballer.
[50:34] And I'm going to guess we play the same positions, Ryan.
[50:36] What are you?
[50:37] I'm a GS, GA.
[50:39] I think she's defence.
[50:40] God, one thing different.
[50:42] Well, she's in the ARC.
[50:42] She works in the ARC just like you.
[50:45] Thank you.
[50:47] Great netball call there.
[50:48] Thank you.
[50:50] Melanie Bracewell does not know who I am.
[50:51] May never.
[50:52] After this podcast, we can only hope.
[50:53] You don't know that.
[50:53] You don't know that for sure.
[50:55] I don't know that for sure.
[50:56] I followed her.
[50:56] She does not follow me.
[50:58] She's also six foot two, I believe.
[51:00] And we do have the same birthday.
[51:02] I know this because I've been an avid follower of Mel Bracewell for years.
[51:05] Well, I can tell you, I know Mel and I can tell you, you are very similar in your personality and just general spirit.
[51:13] Greatest compliment I've ever received.
[51:15] I'm sure she'd feel the same way.
[51:16] I love Mel Bracewell and I watch the cheap seats.
[51:18] I watch her stand up.
[51:19] I love her.
[51:20] And the fandom has reached the point where I think a year ago on our shared birthday, I messaged her unsolicited to say, happy birthday, we are the same height, we are the same hair colour, we have the same birthday, we are years apart, but we have the same.
[51:32] And I didn't even...
[51:33] It wasn't even opened.
[51:34] So Mel's busy.
[51:36] She's caught up.
[51:37] But one day...
[51:39] My twin and I, I know she's twins with Jacinda Ardern.
[51:40] I'd like to get in on that triplet joke and let's change it.
[51:45] But I'm a big fan of Mel Bracewell.
[51:46] Maybe one day we will be besties like I intend.
[51:49] I didn't tell myself a story that she wouldn't like me there, though.
[51:52] I'm pretty sure we'd get coffee.
[51:54] I have no doubt you would get on famously.
[51:57] I just want to just go back a little bit.
[52:00] Just from everything you've shared today, and thank you so much for sharing, going into the detail you have, because I feel like,
[52:06] You could have very easily not, but I feel like a lot of people, that may not be that specific example, but something like that has happened in their life, which will really help them to feel less alone.
[52:18] I'm just interested in that happened at such a young age for you.
[52:21] You're still very young, but the impact on your mental health, what happened with your mental health off the back of what happened with your family?
[52:29] I think I've always been fortunate enough to have good mental health and I have good mental health practices.
[52:35] I've always had a strong group of friends around me.
[52:38] I've always had an incredible support network.
[52:40] So I think what I struggled with was less in an explicit mental health way.
[52:44] I've always struggled with anxiety.
[52:46] I think I am a high pressure, highly strong person that does have that tendency to allow pressure to take over.
[52:53] But other than that, I feel like the driver is not a mental health issue, but instead the way this... And coming back to the card, I think, the way that...
[53:04] that experience in my childhood has shaped the way I give and receive love as an adult in that, you know, I think about the fact that as an 18 year old, this is what was happening at the time.
[53:14] And even reflecting now from my late 20s officially, I didn't have sex until I was like almost 21.
[53:21] I was really scared of affection.
[53:23] And that's throughout my childhood.
[53:25] Like I didn't like to be kissed or touched.
[53:28] I really struggled with letting people in in that way.
[53:31] And I think it's less in a friendship sense.
[53:33] It's more in a romantic sense.
[53:34] I was very stressed out by the idea of what a romantic relationship would look like based on the one I'd witnessed in my childhood.
[53:43] Can you remember it being a happy relationship?
[53:45] I can remember it being a happy relationship before I was about eight.
[53:49] Okay.
[53:50] And then it definitely, I think they lost their friendship.
[53:55] I think that they had a lot of fun when I was little, like I can remember that.
[53:59] But I think that like in most relationships, financial difficulties and stresses, they worked together for a decade while I was young too.
[54:05] So I witnessed them working full time together every day.
[54:09] And not in the bra fitting business.
[54:10] Thank you for thinking that though.
[54:12] I saw it in your eyes.
[54:13] I saw it in your eyes.
[54:14] I did think it.
[54:14] I thought, sure, I can't bring that up again.
[54:16] No, no, no.
[54:16] I thought, I'll drop it for you.
[54:17] I did see it.
[54:19] I saw the opportunity.
[54:22] And they travelled a lot together and we did, I have very happy childhood memories.
[54:27] But my high schooling was like really where it got rocky.
[54:30] And they didn't like to hang out.
[54:33] There was a lot of yelling.
[54:34] There was a lot of arguments I was part of.
[54:36] I think one of the hardest parts, and a lot of eldest children will probably resonate with this, is being brought into referee, being brought in to choose who's right, to hear all the things that I heard.
[54:47] Because my parents, it was a blessing and a curse.
[54:50] They were so respectful of...
[54:52] the questions I asked and the conversations I brought, but that also meant they saw me as their friend rather than their child.
[54:58] And so when a fight occurred, they would openly tell me what the fight was about and I would know all of the details.
[55:03] And so from a young age, I was incredibly present in adult conversations that I didn't need to know about.
[55:09] And again, it gave me a great toolkit for empathy and socialising.
[55:13] I feel like I'm really good with people and being understanding and considerate and trying to engage in the depths of where someone's coming from.
[55:21] But I also think like I just didn't need to participate in those ways.
[55:25] But I think looking back, you know, I never really saw a happy marriage.
[55:30] I don't really have memories of a happy marriage.
[55:34] And I think that sends a lot of people one of two ways because, again, most people in this country have divorced parents or no divorced parents.
[55:42] And it can either send you to the view, I think, that you have to have the perfect marriage, you have to correct, or it's never going to be perfect and you kind of dismiss the idea that that's possible.
[55:53] Yeah.
[55:55] And how that showed up in my dating life for a long time, I think, was settling for people who wouldn't be able to hurt me.
[56:06] Yeah.
[56:06] In, I've always been an ambitious, intellectual, like really outspoken person before anything with cheek.
[56:13] Like I've always been this kind of character.
[56:16] And...
[56:18] Dating for me was kind of an expectation that men wouldn't like that, that men wouldn't like progressive views, someone loud, someone political.
[56:27] And therefore, the men that did, that was great.
[56:32] So my first few partners were fun, lovely, beautiful individuals, but they didn't have ambition.
[56:39] They kind of were just happy to like stand behind me and clap, but they didn't really bring what I needed to a relationship.
[56:44] But because they were accepting of who I was and we had a fun mateship, I kind of just went with it.
[56:50] Yeah, okay.
[56:51] Because I thought if it broke down, if it ended, I'd be okay.
[56:56] It's so interesting that you, I don't know if this is the right terminology, but it's in my head at the moment.
[57:01] If it comes out wrong, I'm sorry.
[57:03] But that you're so, you've got such a sense of strength to take big swings and fail in your intellectual ideas, but not in relationships.
[57:13] Yeah.
[57:13] Yeah, I think that that comes down to internalised misogyny too.
[57:17] Like, I believe that I'm not worthy of love because I'm this loud, aggressive.
[57:25] And it's not, I'm not aggressive, you know, I'm actually a lot of fun and I'm a vulnerable person and I'm sensitive and I'm feminine and I just never let myself be any of those things.
[57:35] And so being scared of sex and of intimacy and affection and not really ever seeing myself as desirable, I'm confident in my intellect.
[57:43] I don't doubt that I'm funny and I'm a good time at a party, but I've never had the kind of view that someone would actively want to date me.
[57:52] Yeah.
[57:53] Do you mind me?
[57:54] It might be implicit in what you said, but do you mind me asking why you don't let yourself become those things?
[58:02] I think no one's ever asked me that actually.
[58:05] I think the thing I can compare it to is that my current partner, truly I've never been more in love in my life, smartest man, most amazing man, and I said to my psychologist the other day, we're going to be together for a really, really long time.
[58:24] And she said... That's funny phrasing.
[58:26] Why didn't you say forever?
[58:29] And I said, well, I can't allow myself to say that because what if it's not?
[58:33] Because what if I say that to myself out loud and I sort of commit it to the air, to someone?
[58:41] If it's not, I'm actually going to be destroyed by this.
[58:46] And if I've allowed myself for the first time to like truly be all of these things, feminine and soft and affectionate and like feel desirable and loved in all of the ways I always wanted and to be in a relationship that's completely different from anything I've ever experienced or seen.
[59:02] If that doesn't work, what does that mean?
[59:04] And.
[59:07] I can't even express how like ridiculous it is given how healthy and beautiful the relationship is that I would be so fearful of saying the F word.
[59:16] But this idea of for the first time allowing myself to slip into all of these things that I never did before.
[59:21] And if that's not to work out, like, will I ever be able to kind of expose myself like that again to someone?
[59:30] I think, I don't think it's ridiculous.
[59:31] I think it makes perfect sense given your life experience.
[59:35] But I think it is a really interesting thing.
[59:39] Um, yeah.
[59:39] I think it is.
[59:41] I don't think it's uncommon.
[59:43] among women generally, men too, but in the sense that sometimes you settle for a partner that you know you won't be hurt by because then you can move through the world, not anxious that you're going to have something like an essential fabric destroyed, you know?
[1:00:00] Yeah, it's a sense of control in a way.
[1:00:02] It is.
[1:00:03] And I think a lot of anxious like me types would have traditionally, I think that's where it will resonate most.
[1:00:10] But I think there's people everywhere of every demographic that probably feel that safety net of if I know I'll survive it.
[1:00:17] And it's funny.
[1:00:18] I know I would survive this too.
[1:00:20] I know who I am.
[1:00:21] But it's that kind of...
[1:00:24] It's so shocking to me that this has been possible for me, which is silly because I think one of the most important things is a lot of young women look at me and they think, oh my God, you have no fear.
[1:00:36] You just go and say all of your political views and you don't wobble.
[1:00:41] It's like, that's not where the wobble is.
[1:00:42] That doesn't mean there isn't a wobble.
[1:00:44] That means the wobble is somewhere else and it's big.
[1:00:48] You're looking at the wrong chairlift.
[1:00:50] Thank you.
[1:00:52] Do you remember what it was like when you started with your current partner, started letting yourself feel that this is different?
[1:01:03] Really early.
[1:01:06] Because it is early still.
[1:01:07] Like I'm confident talking about this because we're still early.
[1:01:09] So in six months this might age poorly.
[1:01:11] But again, see me do it.
[1:01:12] Do you see me do it immediately?
[1:01:14] But it doesn't discount what year.
[1:01:15] It doesn't matter what time it's happening.
[1:01:17] No.
[1:01:17] What it is happening is something.
[1:01:19] Yeah.
[1:01:19] So you guys met last week?
[1:01:20] Yeah.
[1:01:20] It's been a huge one and a half dates, Ryan.
[1:01:23] And he's listening right now.
[1:01:25] Sounds amazing.
[1:01:27] He ghosted, but, you know.
[1:01:28] He's just listening going, fuck.
[1:01:32] Really intense.
[1:01:33] Whoa, whoa, whoa.
[1:01:37] I just retweeted you.
[1:01:43] I think having met someone this year when so much has changed in my life in the last six months who just held my hand through it all has been like so magical and every single day that I'm with him it rewrites what happened to me when I was a child.
[1:01:58] Like it rewrites what's possible.
[1:02:00] It's like we are so close.
[1:02:05] he's such a bitch, like he's so fun in so many ways, he gossips with me, he'll talk about anything political, he's so smart, he's so charismatic, we're really similar in many ways and I never thought I'd date someone similar to me.
[1:02:16] I went for the opposite and it's just I think really affirming, given that what I was striving to avoid was my parents relationship and I overcorrected and went for something kind and kind of gentle and not
[1:02:29] enough and now I've found something where I'm truly challenged and truly seen and I just didn't know that was possible.
[1:02:38] That's wonderful.
[1:02:38] That's so nice.
[1:02:40] Wow.
[1:02:40] Nice.
[1:02:41] Yeah it is nice.
[1:02:42] Nice is a good word.
[1:02:43] Yeah it is nice.
[1:02:44] That's nice.
[1:02:44] Oh it's lovely.
[1:02:45] And our third date next week will be It's going to come with just a document just called Boundaries.
[1:02:58] I am really interested in, you said it really beautifully and I think it's a really important point to make, that there's a bit of a, certainly it happens I think in art and in music, a sort of romanticisation of trauma in that how great it was that someone went through something and got to create something out of it and I've never been comfortable with that sort of narrative.
[1:03:21] Um, but what you said before reminded me of a conversation I had with my parents only a few months ago where they apologized to me for when, when our family was going through some tough stuff a long time ago that they said, we're sorry, we didn't do more to protect you or look after you.
[1:03:42] Um, and I, it was a really important conversation for us to have, um, um, um, um, um, um,
[1:03:47] because I don't really hold any resentment.
[1:03:49] I see them as doing the absolute best that they possibly could at the time.
[1:03:53] And that similar to what you were saying, I wouldn't be, I wouldn't be hosting this show.
[1:03:58] I think if I didn't go through that, I wouldn't be the person I am today, but I don't want to fall trap into that trap of going.
[1:04:05] It was a good thing that it happened and I am better for it because I don't know that that's true.
[1:04:12] But what I do want to ask you is do you have any advice because unfortunately these things happen and people are just dealt with this shit and then you're left to live your life after that moment of what do I do next?
[1:04:29] Do you have any advice from your own experience of how one can work through things in a way that you might work out to have lived life more?
[1:04:42] Yeah, I think this is a great point because it's only really a good story if there's a success afterwards as a result, right?
[1:04:48] Like trauma generally is not pleasing or listenable or sort of accessible if the rest of the story is that someone then depended on drugs or alcohol and their life fell apart.
[1:05:00] And we judge those people and we look down on those people.
[1:05:03] But really the way you kind of tune into different things after a traumatic event is...
[1:05:09] sets the course of your life.
[1:05:11] So the fact that I tuned into academia and creating a business and things and kind of went, became a work addict almost, like that's just a different kind of addiction and route.
[1:05:21] And I have to actually reflect and interrogate why I've put everything, my identity into work and into being a public facing person.
[1:05:29] Like, I think that's problematic in many ways, but it's not judged like that.
[1:05:32] Yeah.
[1:05:33] So I think it's important to recognize that, you know,
[1:05:36] It's only kind of interesting or palatable to people when there's success afterwards.
[1:05:39] Yeah.
[1:05:40] And instead we sort of demonise and torture the people that fall victim to then worse habits afterwards that destroy their lives.
[1:05:49] The advice that I would give again, acknowledging that I come from a privileged position where I think it's important to acknowledge that what privilege does there is it means that the basement you can reach is higher.
[1:05:59] Like there were always going to be people around to ensure I didn't fall further than whatever happened.
[1:06:05] And that's what my level of privilege is.
[1:06:06] But for others, there aren't those safeguards.
[1:06:08] There aren't those barriers.
[1:06:10] So I think it's important to acknowledge that that's part of the reason I got to do what I did.
[1:06:14] Yeah.
[1:06:15] the advice I would give is that recognise you're not there to have to solve your own problems by yourself.
[1:06:21] Like it's basic advice, but the reason I do and I'm able to continue doing the work I do is because of the psychologist I've seen for five years.
[1:06:29] She knows so much about me.
[1:06:31] She is excellent with me.
[1:06:32] My friend group, my psychologist, the exercise that I do, like everything.
[1:06:39] Everything is just a small cog in the machine.
[1:06:42] And whenever I let one cog go for too long, you know, I didn't see a psych for the first six months of this year.
[1:06:48] I had the biggest professional six months of my life and I needed to see it every week for six weeks after that, basically, because I realised that I just left it too long.
[1:06:55] Yeah.
[1:06:57] But I think the biggest failure of mine would be to not speak up about that fact, because I think people think that I'm just innately like this, but it takes work.
[1:07:07] And a psychologist is not going to fix the problems you have.
[1:07:10] They're going to give you the emotional toolkit to help you work through it yourself.
[1:07:14] And without that toolkit, I wouldn't be able to post political opinions and have a full personal life and continue striving for the goals that I have.
[1:07:22] So it's the biggest.
[1:07:25] psychology, mental health practitioners, that's not accessible to everyone.
[1:07:28] Yeah.
[1:07:29] Recognising all of those things and saying, you know, it's not me alone that needs to pick myself up.
[1:07:34] I may not, you know, be at fault for what happened earlier on in my life, but I had a level of privilege and access to be able to improve my circumstances and strive for better and not demonising those who can't, but understanding it's also not like not our individual jobs to pull someone out of a bad time too.
[1:07:50] There's just so many nuances and caveats that need to be said there, but it is true.
[1:07:54] Yeah.
[1:07:54] Yeah.
[1:07:54] And it's like, I think we've just got to give people the space to make mistakes because I've been in a progressive arena for years now.
[1:08:05] And the thing I have struggled with most and maybe regret most in my past, in the way I approached a lot of political opinions was I really judged a lot of people.
[1:08:13] You know, I really put them in baskets based on mistakes and errors.
[1:08:17] And I would never want that to be done to me.
[1:08:20] You know, I want us to give each other the space to be wrong, to make a mistake.
[1:08:24] It's how you respond to the error that matters.
[1:08:26] Yeah.
[1:08:26] And I think that's always going to be my takeaway.
[1:08:29] Beautifully said.
[1:08:30] Judge people by their intent.
[1:08:31] Yeah.
[1:08:31] Yeah.
[1:08:33] Yeah.
[1:08:33] And there's also a lovely through line of like trauma, I think, is inherently lonely, but you don't have to move past it and move not past but move through it alone.
[1:08:45] Yeah.
[1:08:46] And you almost can't.
[1:08:47] No, you can't.
[1:08:48] And I think a lot of the time, this is a bit of a segue, but I think it's an important mention, you know, in feminist movements like I'm in, there is a demonization of men.
[1:08:57] And I used to be part of it.
[1:08:58] I used to be just so like, you know, why are we giving men any air time?
[1:09:03] We need to criticize, almost shame them into improvement.
[1:09:06] And I think after, like, by the time I was 24, I was like, no one's listening.
[1:09:10] You're screaming and all the women are agreeing and the men feel completely excluded from the conversation.
[1:09:16] We need to invite each other in.
[1:09:18] Social media, all of these spaces I work in, they are exactly the perfect storm for creating division and apathy and withdrawal from any kind of important communal discussion.
[1:09:28] The public square is fundamentally broken.
[1:09:31] And I think when we're talking about trauma and recovery and the loneliness of that experience, I always think when it comes to these feminist discussions, as much as I used to be like, men just need to kind of like start actually reaching out this male loneliness epidemic.
[1:09:46] It's men causing it.
[1:09:47] They just don't ask for help.
[1:09:48] And I always think like, I would never want to be a man.
[1:09:50] And I mean that in the sense that like the way you've,
[1:09:54] So many men that I know feel so unable to express themselves emotionally and feel unable to ask their friends deep, deep questions and engage and reach out.
[1:10:03] I would never want to feel that.
[1:10:04] And I never, ever have felt that.
[1:10:06] As a woman, the greatest privilege of my life is my friendships.
[1:10:10] And so I often think when we're talking about patriarchy and changing systems, it's so easy to kind of go like, and men need to sort of stand up and come together.
[1:10:20] And it's like, imagine never having been taught that that's okay.
[1:10:24] because they haven't.
[1:10:25] And so I think from my perspective, it's like, I have been harsh, I've been really harsh, but I actually wanna be soft again in all of these approaches, you know?
[1:10:33] It's like my word of the year actually is soft because I think in all of the criticism and in all of the kind of venomous and vitriolic rhetoric on the internet, remaining soft in that process, virtually impossible.
[1:10:46] And to kind of stay gentle and delicate to these changes in these conversations is really difficult, but that's my commitment.
[1:10:52] It almost feels rebellious.
[1:10:54] Yeah, it does.
[1:10:55] Yeah, yeah.
[1:10:56] And it's beautiful.
[1:10:57] So there's obviously like obvious differences between like male friendships, like generally speaking differences between male friendships and female friendships.
[1:11:06] And I have a vague idea of what male friendships are like, I think, like in my experience at least.
[1:11:12] And I have an even vaguer idea of what female friendships are like.
[1:11:16] But I know you have a lot of experience with female friendships, but you also value them.
[1:11:22] very, very highly.
[1:11:24] And I'd just be so interested to hear your just extended thoughts on female friendship because it seems complex but so important.
[1:11:34] Yeah.
[1:11:34] I think one of the best ways I've ever heard it put is that male friendships tend to operate in a side-by-side setting rather than a face-to-face setting.
[1:11:44] I know exactly.
[1:11:44] What are you thinking?
[1:11:45] Oh, I just heard the best story last night.
[1:11:48] It was...
[1:11:49] So it couldn't be more to what you were just saying there, but there was a social media clip that came up of it.
[1:11:54] He's a famous actor in Britain and he was being interviewed at the cricket by the England-India Test Match.
[1:12:01] And he told this beautiful story about how like the reason cricket is so important for men who like cricket is that for the first, they go to the cricket, they sit side by side.
[1:12:09] The first two hours, they talk about the cricket.
[1:12:11] for the second session, for the next two hours, they talk about things that are happening live.
[1:12:16] And then the third session, six hours in, they start talking about what really counts.
[1:12:19] And it was done as a really beautiful, isn't that incredible?
[1:12:21] And I was like, oh, yeah, cricket's great.
[1:12:23] That's so true.
[1:12:24] And I thought, actually, no, that's incredibly sad.
[1:12:26] It takes us six hours sitting side by side to actually get to what matters.
[1:12:30] That's actually indolent.
[1:12:31] And no one's allowed to look at each other.
[1:12:33] That is it, right?
[1:12:33] But it was put forward as a positive.
[1:12:35] It was like, isn't that great?
[1:12:36] That's beautiful.
[1:12:36] I was like, oh, hang on a minute.
[1:12:37] That's terrible.
[1:12:38] It takes us six hours.
[1:12:39] And it's also like settings like exercising, going for a run together or playing a sport or, you know, driving in a car, like going camping or something.
[1:12:47] It's all about setup of equipment and an activity.
[1:12:50] It's always centered around an activity.
[1:12:51] Whereas women are like, would you like to come and braid my hair for four hours?
[1:12:55] And we're like, absolutely.
[1:12:56] I'm so glad you asked.
[1:12:57] Like there's just no barriers to a reason or a justification for a hangout.
[1:13:01] And they don't like a lot of them just don't have an end point, you know.
[1:13:04] It's not until kids come along, I assume, that you're really limited in that timeframe and that vulnerability and what happens in those spaces or there's conversational and life disparities that get in the way.
[1:13:13] And I don't want to discount the value of side-by-side relationships too because I've often found some of the deepest conversations I've ever had are in a car because sometimes people don't want to look you in the eye when they say something really personal.
[1:13:25] It can be a gateway for someone to tell you something that they've been withholding or about a relationship breakdown or whatever.
[1:13:32] But I think often when I consider male friendships, another classic kind of meme that goes around is this idea of when a man comes home to his wife, say, and says, oh, so-and-so had a baby.
[1:13:45] And the woman will go, what's the gender?
[1:13:48] What's the name?
[1:13:49] How much did it weigh?
[1:13:50] Is mum going OK?
[1:13:51] Oh, I didn't ask.
[1:13:53] And you're like, what's the gap there?
[1:13:55] Like the continuous questioning, the interest being piqued in having a specific ongoing conversation.
[1:14:01] And I'm not saying not all men.
[1:14:03] I'm saying not all men.
[1:14:04] And I really believe that.
[1:14:05] That's why I love this podcast so much because you really get into the grit of a conversation and ask these hard questions.
[1:14:11] But I think that there is a...
[1:14:12] I'm hearing that you don't respect any men.
[1:14:14] Thank you, Ryan.
[1:14:15] Can you put that on a T-shirt?
[1:14:16] I think that the far right would love that campaign.
[1:14:22] And again, I'm trying to learn to respect men.
[1:14:26] But in that process, I'm questioning why are men a lot of the time uncomfortable with digging down into an experience or a feeling or
[1:14:36] And it's coming from that place of masculinity and in Australian society particularly is built around this ideas of stoicism and hyper independence and quiet and lacking, again, independence, not needing anyone else to understand or be in their inner world.
[1:14:52] But that also means that often that vulnerability and those emotions show up only in interpersonal like romantic relationships.
[1:14:59] So then there's a pressure on a heterosexual relationship where men are confiding everything potentially in their female partner.
[1:15:05] Yeah, and then when that breaks down, men are at breaking point.
[1:15:08] That can be the highest risk time.
[1:15:09] It is the highest risk time when it comes to men and suicidality.
[1:15:13] So female friendships are
[1:15:17] giving you so much that you don't have to depend on a partner as much.
[1:15:21] And not that you don't want to or don't need to, but inherently you don't need to get all of your sources of emotional support and conversation from them.
[1:15:29] And I think a lot of the time, even in conversation between men and women, often women will complain, I just want to vent to you and you're giving me solutions.
[1:15:35] And I think it's because men are so focused on like, well, what's the rational logical way to help solve the problem rather than feeling the emotion in your body in it and actually being with someone in an experience rather than needing to kind of close it off and end the problem, which is admirable too, wanting to help.
[1:15:52] But I think sometimes I just, I really want men to understand that the most attractive thing that you can do is be so able to just sit in an emotion and express it.
[1:16:02] And that ultimately, if you share something vulnerable with your friends, in all likelihood, they've been waiting to share something right back.
[1:16:08] Yeah, yeah.
[1:16:09] I think a lot of men don't allow themselves emotions thinking that they're bad and that they're to be avoided.
[1:16:13] And the best lesson I've ever learned in all of my psychology experiences is the more curious I am about an emotion, the more I'm able to work through it.
[1:16:23] Why something is occurring will allow me to learn about it and allow me to show up better in my friendships and supporting others than pushing something away or shutting the door on it.
[1:16:32] Yeah, it's almost like for men, it's like if you're in a side-by-side relationship, you could even just try just like, just go for 45 degrees.
[1:16:39] Yeah.
[1:16:40] Just like slight, just turn in a little bit, like you're posing for a photo.
[1:16:43] Just a tad.
[1:16:43] You can catch each other in the side of your eye.
[1:16:46] It doesn't need to be an external stimulus.
[1:16:48] I truly believe men should start going to brunch.
[1:16:50] It's one of the most powerful activities you can do together.
[1:16:52] Just start with brunch.
[1:16:53] It's a gateway drug.
[1:16:54] Seriously.
[1:16:55] Did you know the word brunch is an amalgamation of lunch and breakfast?
[1:16:59] I've heard.
[1:16:59] I was.
[1:17:01] This is.
[1:17:02] Look, it's OK.
[1:17:04] It's going to be OK. Commission to unleash.
[1:17:10] Hugh, you are a gift.
[1:17:12] And I think you should continue sharing vulnerably like that because that was embarrassing.
[1:17:18] And you should be fucking ashamed of yourself.
[1:17:20] And you know what?
[1:17:21] Please continue having this face-to-face softness, you know, emotional availability with me.
[1:17:27] It's powerful.
[1:17:28] My cricket-watching friends would never laugh at me like that.
[1:17:30] Well, if they were, you wouldn't see them.
[1:17:32] Yeah.
[1:17:35] I think this maps in pretty interestingly and well on your analogy before about the different cogs of that help you work through any kind of trauma.
[1:17:44] I think having different cogs of people in your life that provide different parts of the machine.
[1:17:51] I think it sounds like healthy female friendships are...
[1:17:58] a whole lot of cogs that are happy to work really well to work through stuff.
[1:18:02] And I think I was just thinking about my own male friendships as you were talking about the differences.
[1:18:08] And I feel like I've got ones that fit different parts of the machine and I've got ones that are great.
[1:18:13] And I love sometimes I love just having a side by side friendship for the day with a certain friend.
[1:18:18] then seeing them because I know it will be pure fun and we're not going to get into anything deep or serious then I've got other friends who I crave seeing and I love seeing because we can go there and talk about that stuff and for me it's about having a broad spectrum that can they bring different things to the party and bring different parts out of me that make me a more complete person does that make sense
[1:18:41] It makes perfect sense.
[1:18:42] I think that's actually quite important.
[1:18:43] I did discount side by side friendships in some ways there.
[1:18:46] And I don't think that's fair, actually, because I have some friends that I see only in a one on one capacity because I want to get dinner with them.
[1:18:53] I don't really want to have a party with them.
[1:18:54] And I have other friends that I'm like, you're great in a group scenario, but probably not the person that I want to just get coffee with on a Saturday morning.
[1:19:02] I think maybe even a learning for me is that sometimes when I've wanted a friendship to fade out, it may be because it was only posing as a side-by-side friendship and maybe that's unfair too.
[1:19:11] But I think that sometimes when you get to a level of depth of a certain number of people, you're almost like, oh, superficial feels...
[1:19:19] Sometimes a side-by-side feels like I'm lying to myself for some reason because I'm not getting deep.
[1:19:23] But I think in other ways the expectation that you always have to be emotional and open with people is an unfair labour as well.
[1:19:31] And that's something to consider too.
[1:19:33] Yeah, I think potentially...
[1:19:35] when men hear that it feels like there's only the two options.
[1:19:39] That it's invalidating.
[1:19:40] Yeah.
[1:19:41] And there's like, God, I couldn't do that.
[1:19:42] I couldn't do the braiding one.
[1:19:44] No, no.
[1:19:44] Um, so where do I land?
[1:19:46] And I guess I just want to say that from my experience, I it's, you can have a broad spectrum of friendship that delivers so many different things.
[1:19:55] Um, and it's just making sure that you're getting what you need out of your group of friends is really important.
[1:20:00] I think you're exactly right.
[1:20:01] I think that's actually a really good piece of feedback.
[1:20:03] The only thing I would add on to that is sometimes if you're in a side-by-side friendship that you're like, I'm happy with this, just consider whether the person that's beside you may need more and doesn't have more anywhere else.
[1:20:15] That's correct.
[1:20:15] And just open the opportunity.
[1:20:17] But I completely agree it's not a necessity.
[1:20:19] Yeah, no, it's a great point.
[1:20:20] And you don't know where, how much richer that friendship could become.
[1:20:23] Yeah.
[1:20:24] I could listen to you speak forever and I probably could because you've got so much material out there, I could, I could do that.
[1:20:30] Sorry, for a long time, I should say.
[1:20:31] It's really a long time.
[1:20:32] Please don't use the F word.
[1:20:34] Yeah.
[1:20:34] Before we let you go, just an update on your friendship with Ryan.
[1:20:39] How are we tracking there?
[1:20:42] You guys are in the top 50 too.
[1:20:43] Ryan, top 30.
[1:20:44] Whoa.
[1:20:46] Guys, it's good at the top.
[1:20:48] I've knocked out, you know, one of my best friends, but I think it's important right now.
[1:20:51] No, it's very important.
[1:20:52] Let's keep it real.
[1:20:53] Yeah, let's keep it real.
[1:20:54] Well, thank you.
[1:20:55] Thank you.
[1:20:56] You're number one for me.
[1:21:01] You get BF.
[1:21:02] What would be the BFLT?
[1:21:06] Best friends for a long time.
[1:21:07] Oh, I was like bacon, lettuce, tomato.
[1:21:13] You're my BLT.
[1:21:15] You're my BLT too.
[1:21:17] Thank you for choosing that question.
[1:21:18] I think it's not lost to me how deep you had to go to answer it.
[1:21:23] Thank you for sharing your wobble.
[1:21:24] Thank you for spending time with us.
[1:21:26] I feel like not just us but our community are so much better off having shared your journey with you.
[1:21:32] You're incredible and we love you and thank you so much for joining us.
[1:21:34] Thank you so much, BLTs.
[1:21:36] Sorry, Ryan, that's not a special thing but it can be.
[1:21:38] Yeah, that's sort of our thing but that's cool.
[1:21:42] All good.
[1:21:44] So nice to meet you, Hannah.
[1:21:45] So nice to spend time with you.
[1:21:47] My friend's in my ears, now my friend's in real life.
[1:21:49] It's really nice.
[1:21:49] Exactly.
[1:21:50] Awesome.
[1:21:51] If you enjoyed this episode but want a little bit more, we've got some good news.
[1:21:55] We have a brand new show called A Little More Imperfects and it's on Patreon.
[1:21:59] For a little bit of money, you'll get access to bonus episodes with Hugh, Ryan and Josh every fortnight.
[1:22:04] Early access to live events plus other things we haven't even thought of yet.
[1:22:07] Visit patreon.com slash theimperfects.
[1:22:10] The Imperfects is not a licensed mental health service and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, treatment or assessment.
[1:22:17] The advice given in this episode is general in nature, but if you're struggling, please see a healthcare professional or call Lifeline on 13 11 14.

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