# Dr Emily - Curb Your Perfectionism

An episode of [The Imperfects](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1476501557), 21 May 2023, 1 h 09 min.

Audio: https://enrichment.soundstack.com/4vjqq8/episode.flightcast.com/hk3bkpbpkwi2qtnbkyoc3qds.mp3

We’ve spent about four and a half years on this podcast telling you why we’re all imperfect. But on this episode, Dr Emily actually explains why trying to be PERFECT is… well… really bad. And not only why it’s really bad, but why perfectionism’s mere existence is stealing all the good from our lives. Take it away Dr Emily……… PSYCHOLOGIST! To learn more about Lynn Lyon's work around anxiety and perfectionism, follow this link: https://www.lynnlyons.com/ To hear Josh's first VulnerabiliTea House, where he talks about "the notebook" and why he struggles to write music now, follow this link: https://bit.ly/3OsQVj2 The Imperfects is not a licensed mental health service and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, treatment or assessment. The advice given in this episode is general in nature, but if you’re struggling, please see a healthcare professional, or call lifeline on 13 11 14.

## Transcript

[0:00] My name's Josh.
[0:01] I'm a co-host on The Imperfects, the son of Sri Lankan and English immigrants, and I call Australia home.
[0:07] I'd like to recognise the traditional peoples of this continent whose land was stolen nearly 250 years ago.
[0:13] In particular, we at The Imperfects would like to acknowledge the Wurundjeri people of the Kulin Nation as the traditional owners of the land on which this podcast was recorded, and we extend our respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples.
[0:25] I'm inspired by the strength and endurance of the world's oldest living culture.
[0:28] And we at The Imperfects pay homage to the traditions of story when we share stories on our podcast.
[0:33] The Imperfects is not a licensed mental health service and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, treatment or assessment.
[0:41] The advice given in this episode is general in nature.
[0:43] But if you're struggling, please see a healthcare professional or call Lifeline on 13 11 14.
[0:49] Quick, is anyone here a doctor?
[0:51] Yes, her name is Dr. Emily, and she's a psychologist.
[0:57] Please welcome to The Imperfects our very own psychologist!
[1:03] One of our favourite times of the month.
[1:06] Is that all right to say?
[1:08] Yeah.
[1:08] Yeah, probably not a good way to start.
[1:12] Well, it's that time of the month.
[1:18] It is.
[1:18] No, it's a good time of the month.
[1:20] It's a wonderful time.
[1:21] It is.
[1:22] It is.
[1:22] We have Dr. M in the studio with us.
[1:24] Hi, M. Hello.
[1:25] It's great to be here.
[1:26] It's great to see you.
[1:27] Yeah.
[1:29] I think it's disappointing for our listeners that they can't smell M right now.
[1:34] And why is that, Hugh?
[1:37] Is it okay to say that?
[1:39] We'll find out.
[1:41] Wait for the feedback.
[1:43] M smells wonderful.
[1:44] Yeah.
[1:44] Thank you.
[1:45] She does.
[1:46] Is it a special perfume?
[1:48] It is, but it's not my just natural scent.
[1:51] That would be impressive.
[1:53] That's probably in the future somewhere where people can get like their scents changed, like some technological advancement where you can get- I would suggest Dr. M could be one of those scents you could choose because it's-
[2:04] She just smells great today.
[2:06] Oh, thank you.
[2:07] Really great.
[2:07] It's a smell that I'm familiar with because I've smelled it before and every time I smell that smell, I think, oh, that's my favourite smell in the world.
[2:16] Oh, there you go.
[2:17] Behind Jasmine.
[2:18] Behind Jasmine.
[2:19] So don't get a big head M. Jasmine Bush, number one.
[2:23] Dr. M, number two.
[2:24] Okay, good.
[2:25] Just to make it very clear of the rankings.
[2:28] Use smell rankings.
[2:30] Right.
[2:31] Okay.
[2:31] What an odd start.
[2:32] Dr. M, number two.
[2:34] An understatement of the day.
[2:38] Dr. M, as we know, every time you come on the show, you reference one of our older episodes and then you'll expand in some way from a psychologist's point of view.
[2:49] So today, for your episode, which episode are you going to look back and...
[2:55] So I wanted to talk about Linda Mariano's episode.
[2:57] Yeah.
[2:58] And so I think Josh will play a little bit of an excerpt.
[3:00] But this excerpt is in relation to, I suppose, the origins in some ways of the good girl.
[3:06] Oh, yeah.
[3:08] Like being a good girl.
[3:09] Yeah.
[3:09] And then also using that as a context to really understand perfectionism.
[3:14] So we can talk more about that after.
[3:16] Yeah, we've had a lot of people contact us about that and saying, yep, I see that in myself.
[3:21] A lot of people related to Josh, your reflection on it, like saying, is it possible to be a lazy perfectionist?
[3:26] Yeah, I see people.
[3:27] A lot of people.
[3:28] In fact, our mum even mentioned that.
[3:30] Yeah, that's true.
[3:30] She was really quite moved by that.
[3:31] So I think it's great we're doing this.
[3:35] It was such a...
[3:42] such a pressure in being really resilient and hardworking and disciplined and, like,
[3:52] Yep, we can take anything.
[3:54] You can go to school.
[3:54] You're going to be the ducks of the grade.
[3:57] You're going to be very good.
[3:59] You're going to do very well academically and that's it.
[4:02] No crying, no complaints, no laziness.
[4:05] No pressure.
[4:06] No pressure.
[4:07] No vulnerability.
[4:09] Actually, no vulnerability.
[4:11] No.
[4:12] You fell over and you cried, no.
[4:14] You don't do that.
[4:15] You suck it up.
[4:16] If you're feeling sick, you're going to school.
[4:18] And this is from your mum?
[4:19] Yeah.
[4:20] And was your dad similar to that or...?
[4:22] No, dad was the softy.
[4:24] Mum ruled the way that we were in our house, how we kept our rooms, how we did our homework, what we ate.
[4:34] It was totally mum and it was really strict.
[4:38] So how did your dad make you feel then?
[4:41] Dad made me feel like I could go to him.
[4:44] Yeah.
[4:45] Good cop, bad cop.
[4:46] Yeah, totally.
[4:47] But dad was almost like good cop.
[4:51] not invisible cop, but mum was the rule.
[4:56] The police force.
[4:57] Yeah, mum was the police force.
[4:59] Whatever mum said goes.
[5:01] I remember unpacking groceries with my mum and, you know,
[5:07] dropping a jar of something.
[5:10] And it was that sort of strict thing where you don't play after school, you've got to do your homework, you're allowed to have afternoon tea, then you do a chore.
[5:19] So I'd be cleaning, like I'd sweep the backyard or would dust bust the floor or like something and then would help mum with the shopping or the washing.
[5:28] And I remember, I guess, kind of an example of the good cop, bad cop thing, which was I dropped a jar of...
[5:36] Like it was like a glass, it was a jar that broke, I remember, of like peanut butter or jam or something in the kitchen.
[5:45] And I was like, I'm so sorry, I'm so sorry.
[5:46] And mum like scolded me for dropping this jar.
[5:51] And I remember my dad had just gotten home from work and he came in and he was like, it's okay, it's all right, Linda, come here.
[6:00] And I remember running into his arms while my mum was, you know, cleaning up and being like...
[6:05] You're silly.
[6:06] You shouldn't have dropped that jar.
[6:08] You know, it was that kind of pressure and that expectation to always be a really.
[6:12] That you couldn't make mistakes and you always had to be a really good, always had to be a really good girl, really good.
[6:19] Was the same standard applied to your brother?
[6:22] Yeah.
[6:22] Yeah.
[6:22] Yeah, yeah.
[6:25] God, I almost listened to the whole episode then, didn't we?
[6:30] God, that is, yeah, I remember that.
[6:32] Of course I remember that.
[6:33] Where was that from?
[6:36] So perfectionism, because, yeah, how does that childhood then sort of play out?
[6:44] Well, it's a really good question and I think it can play out in a myriad of ways.
[6:49] And interestingly, Josh, you know, you're talking about the lazy perfectionist.
[6:52] I think we can definitely get to that because perfectionism manifests itself so differently depending upon your temperament and your unique learning history.
[7:05] So, you know, I guess first of all the thing for me that stands out about that excerpt are really kind of the main, like some of the main principles of almost of defining perfectionism and that is that there is an unrelenting standard that is rigid and excessive and it's coupled with hypercriticalness.
[7:29] Hypocriticalness on yourself?
[7:31] Yeah, so it actually can work both ways.
[7:34] So if we look at the origins of being a perfectionist, it can come from a number of different experiences, but one of them is...
[7:43] receiving or experiencing really critical parenting.
[7:47] So in response to you making a mistake as a child, there is a high degree of criticism.
[7:56] Like dropping a jar.
[7:57] Exactly.
[7:58] Yeah.
[7:59] And, you know, Linda gave such a great example.
[8:01] You're silly.
[8:02] What's wrong with you?
[8:03] Why did you do that?
[8:04] Yeah.
[8:06] Which is, you know, which for a child the message is I cannot make mistakes.
[8:12] So I must be perfect in order to be okay, really.
[8:18] And then they become, and I've said this obviously in lots of instances, but they then become your internalised messages about how you live in the world.
[8:26] And does that then reduce your ability to take risks?
[8:33] Absolutely.
[8:34] Absolutely.
[8:34] So then you get older and you're like, I won't take that leap or I won't leave my job to do that other thing because I might fail or I might not be perfect at it.
[8:45] And it can spread to all areas of your life.
[8:47] So it might start with – so you might get feedback that dropping the jar was a stupid thing to do, but then that'll go when I'm playing sport or when I'm playing music or academically or with friends or you set yourself together and to be perfect in all scenarios.
[9:01] Is that kind of how that works?
[9:02] Yeah.
[9:03] Yeah, it can be.
[9:04] I mean, for some people, I think it can be there's a lot of striving in one particular domain, but for a lot of other people, it's quite pervasive.
[9:12] So it's across all of your experiences.
[9:15] But really interestingly, like I said before, it can present so differently.
[9:21] So you could have someone that actually does take risks, but it's accompanied by lots of striving.
[9:31] really long hours at work, excessive checking of your work.
[9:37] It can be letting other parts of your life go in order to really kind of put yourself into this particular job.
[9:45] And so there might be risk associated with the job, absolutely, but it becomes so rigid and so life-narrowing that that becomes really problematic.
[9:59] Life narrowing.
[10:00] What do you mean by that?
[10:01] Like obsessive...
[10:03] When perfectionism tend to show up, it brings with this kind of strong fight or flight response.
[10:12] And as part of that response, we tend to get a narrowing of cognition.
[10:16] So we tend to see that our thoughts are much more focused on that exact task and particularly avoiding failure.
[10:27] And so we tend then to not be able to have a greater capacity for perspective taking.
[10:32] So we can't say that there are other things outside of this particular task, for example, that might be really life affirming.
[10:41] So it might mean that you, I'm just thinking in terms of like, for example, career choices.
[10:47] If you're in a very particularly stressful job and striving and achievement is really highly valued in that particular job, that it might mean that all of your efforts and your both internal and external efforts are focused on that to the detriment of other parts of your life.
[11:05] So we don't have the same capacity to focus on our relationships.
[11:09] We don't have leisure time.
[11:11] We don't have time to learn new or other things.
[11:16] The little person in my brain is just like ringing the bell like a madman.
[11:20] Just going like, yes, yes, ding, ding.
[11:24] Because I feel like that is to kind of like throw yourself into a work task.
[11:32] Even if, because if you're like talking about myself, I'm scared.
[11:35] If I'm doing something, if I'm really scared of failing and I'm really unsure and I've got a lot of self-doubt about like whether this will be even good or not.
[11:44] It's almost like the more time I spend just sitting in front of the computer working on it, even if I haven't spoken to Jam or my family or whatever for ages, it's like I don't even think about that.
[11:54] Is that what you mean by that narrowing of focus?
[11:58] Because I just think like, well, if I just spend lots of time in front of the computer and just keep working till 1am, genius will hopefully hit and I'll be saved.
[12:08] And I won't fail.
[12:09] And saved from what?
[12:11] Criticism.
[12:12] Yeah.
[12:12] Yeah.
[12:13] Yeah.
[12:14] Yeah.
[12:15] Wow.
[12:16] And that's what really sits at the heart of perfectionism is an intense fear of failure.
[12:21] Yeah.
[12:22] Oh, right.
[12:23] Yeah.
[12:24] And if we get kind of go even below that, if we think about what it means to fail, it leaves you more vulnerable to criticism, rejection, I'm not lovable.
[12:37] Yeah.
[12:38] Yeah.
[12:39] And almost like.
[12:42] Yeah, what is below failure?
[12:43] It's almost like for me, I'm just thinking for me, it's like if I fail, then I probably start questioning whether I should be doing it at all because you start thinking like, well, maybe the people who said try something else were right.
[13:01] Maybe I am out on a limb here.
[13:04] Maybe I should do a more...
[13:05] traditional job with a more consistent paycheck or, you know, something that I'm part of a bigger group or I'm not holding so much of the responsibility because I'm not, maybe I'm not ready for it.
[13:16] Maybe I'm not good enough to carry all this burden.
[13:18] Maybe I should be in like a bigger company and like play a role.
[13:22] Those are the questions that start cropping up if I fail at doing the thing that's like my, that I feel like I'm taking a risk by doing.
[13:29] Mm-hmm.
[13:30] Mm-hmm.
[13:31] It feels like there's a slight strange, I don't know if paradox is the right word, but in that when you do narrow your focus and become obsessive with something, you do get very good at it.
[13:42] So you do achieve a level of success or you can.
[13:45] You're open to achieving a level of success.
[13:50] Whether you feel like that, I guess, is a question, but it's inevitable that you will reach failure.
[13:57] That must be at some point, because everyone does in that given pursuit, that must be particularly devastating for people who have narrowed their focus and their life so much to the detriment of everything else.
[14:11] Absolutely.
[14:13] And then to fail.
[14:15] That must be the ultimate blow.
[14:18] There's a big cost to that effort.
[14:21] And I think that is such an interesting observation about it being paradoxical that in some ways we need concerted effort to be achieving certain things, absolutely.
[14:33] Yeah.
[14:34] But, you know, is there a way in which, and I'll get to this in terms of how we work with this, but, you know, really highlighting that when we bring so much striving to,
[14:45] to a particular thing, it comes at a cost and that might be, you know, the loss of other important parts of your life.
[14:53] Yeah.
[14:53] Yeah.
[14:54] It's, um, and in my mind I've always framed, because I'm just, of course, as it always happens, make it about myself.
[15:01] I do that.
[15:02] Yeah.
[15:04] I made your thing about me.
[15:09] The lazy thing, I think.
[15:10] I've always told myself that kind of the lazy perfection thing in my mind is that like the fear of failure is so much that it's best not to try.
[15:22] And then I sort of had a, I don't know if the epiphany is probably too strong a word, but this thought process of, well, of course you're not good at that because you're not doing it enough.
[15:30] You're not trying hard enough.
[15:31] You're not focused enough.
[15:33] And we seem to really reward the idea in the culture of work and success that the only way you get good at something is by putting in the 10,000 hours and this obsessive thing as if that's a really good thing.
[15:48] But it feels really hard to find, like, where's the balance there?
[15:52] How do you achieve a high level of success and skill at a certain task without having an unhealthy attitude towards it or mindset towards it?
[16:03] And I think there's a really important distinction between what's healthy striving and what's unhealthy striving and part of it has to do with even being able to experience the stress and contraction in the body that comes with the pressure to perform.
[16:19] So if we can relate to the task differently, that there isn't so much pressure on you to be performing, then that might change the ease with which we can do the work.
[16:32] Mm-hmm.
[16:34] Healthy striving versus unhealthy striving.
[16:37] Yeah.
[16:37] That's really interesting because I feel like, yeah, just this obsession with, I think you're right, there's that, or whatever, the 10,000 hours of to master something so everyone's obsessively trying to get their flying hours up to be a genius at something or to be incredible or something.
[16:54] But you can do that in a healthy way as a really good.
[16:58] Because I think about when I do talk sometimes when I get off the stage, my left...
[17:02] shoulder is so sore and my back on the left hand.
[17:05] It's just when I'm really striving and trying really too hard and I care too much about it, my body knows that obviously my body's like, and then sometimes I'm just so relaxed and I feel, I guess that's kind of like... That's a great example.
[17:19] Yeah.
[17:20] So the body knows it.
[17:22] The body knows it.
[17:23] So I think the tension in the body, the contraction, the tightness.
[17:27] Even things like perspiring but not noticing that you've been feeling anxious.
[17:34] You know, this is an indication that the body's sitting in this stress response.
[17:38] But there are times when you can engage in action that feels much more easy.
[17:42] Yeah.
[17:44] So that's just on the sweating thing, and again, to make this about me now, I notice I don't sweat much at all.
[17:50] Even when I'm exercising, I just don't sweat that much, which is really weird.
[17:53] But then I've noticed that when I get on stage sometimes, I have to be very careful with what color t-shirt I wear.
[17:57] You can't wear gray, because I go, oh, you get sweat patches.
[18:00] And I remember once going, hang on a minute, I don't sweat.
[18:02] Why am I sweating when I'm cold wearing a t-shirt and not exercising?
[18:05] So that's a stress type thing, is it?
[18:07] Well, it's certainly like it's a stress response and I could actually might go into this in more detail in another context, but there's a component attached to the physical response, which is how you think about it and how you feel about it.
[18:22] So you could have, we can have this stress response showing up, but we actually think really positively about our experience.
[18:28] So for example, you doing a talk, you might be having a stress response.
[18:33] Like the body sees this as a need for mobilization in the body.
[18:37] Like you need to be mobilized to do the talking.
[18:40] So therefore the body is responding accordingly, but there may not be the negative affect attached to it.
[18:45] Okay.
[18:45] Yeah.
[18:46] Okay.
[18:47] Sorry, I got you off track a bit there.
[18:48] No, that's okay.
[18:48] So the healthy striving versus non-healthy striving.
[18:52] Yeah.
[18:52] Yeah.
[18:53] And I think one of the things that really stands out to me about the difference between those two things is thinking about the end point.
[19:01] So, for example, when it comes to perfectionistic tendencies is that we're often striving with the intention of avoiding failure or avoiding feelings of shame or blame.
[19:17] Mm-hmm.
[19:18] So when you reach that particular goal, so let's say you do get, like even when you're studying, let's say you got an HD on something, and so you get to that point and it's come with a lot of stress, a lot of striving, lots of like excessive checking, reassurance seeking, all that sort of stuff, and then you get the result.
[19:40] And then the question for me is like, so what happens when you get the result?
[19:43] Mm-hmm.
[19:44] And so often for people that struggle with perfectionism is that it feels primarily like relief, that I've avoided failure, but it doesn't come with pride.
[19:54] It doesn't come with joyfulness.
[19:55] It doesn't come with excitement and it doesn't come with a pause.
[20:00] So for people that- As in you just go on to the next thing straight away.
[20:04] Exactly.
[20:04] Yeah.
[20:05] Yeah.
[20:05] That fills up my entire year 12.
[20:07] Yeah.
[20:08] Relief.
[20:08] Uh-huh.
[20:09] Yeah.
[20:10] And disappointment.
[20:12] And actually that is key and that is that for a perfectionist, it's one of two things.
[20:18] I've done it or I'm terrible.
[20:20] So it's really dichotomous.
[20:22] It's I'm perfect or I've saved myself from.
[20:26] And the perfection is just relief that you hit that bar, not pride.
[20:30] Yeah.
[20:31] So there is no real, so is what you're saying is there's no real joy in perfection, in finding perfection.
[20:39] Yeah, that's a really... Wrong way of saying it.
[20:42] Well, no, I think that's actually quite controversial because I think that there are some people that would really feel a great deal of pride, for example, in the work that they've produced.
[20:52] But how much of that is... Because there's a part of this that's really resonating with me because I read a book from Gretchen Rubin like five, six years ago, something, probably more, and she talks about process...
[21:07] prioritizing process over product.
[21:08] And I think I've spoken about it on the show, but it completely changed the way that I worked in like writing comedy and writing, just making anything where she talked about like to prioritize the process is what we should be doing and forgetting about the product.
[21:24] Obviously you want to be making something that you're proud of or that has some sort of – that you like.
[21:30] But if you prioritize – if you're making something –
[21:34] like this podcast, for example, the process in making this episode is our life.
[21:42] Like the time that it takes to record it and then we edit it and talk about it and whatever it takes, all those hours, that's the time that we spend together and we can either enjoy or we find really stressful.
[21:56] The product, once we put it out there, is –
[21:59] People will either like it or they won't like it.
[22:02] It's sort of out of our control.
[22:04] But if you are doing everything to focus on the product and you don't care about what the process is like, then that's when you get stressed.
[22:14] And the product itself is like such a small part of the whole process.
[22:18] So if you're not prioritizing the process, you're not prioritizing your life.
[22:22] And that was a huge shift for me and it kind of feels similar, a similar ballpark to what you're talking about.
[22:27] Yeah.
[22:28] Oh, I just feel like that sentence almost bears repeating.
[22:30] Like if I'm not prioritising process, I'm not prioritising my life.
[22:34] Yeah.
[22:35] That's pretty significant, I think.
[22:36] T-shirt.
[22:36] Yeah.
[22:37] T-shirt.
[22:40] Yeah, it was very, very significant for me.
[22:43] And it honestly did the work I made from that moment on, just the work I did for myself.
[22:48] It was perfect.
[22:49] It was absolutely perfect.
[22:51] No, it was actually probably the stuff I'm most proud of because the memories I have from it are from the making of the things, not necessarily from the feedback I got from it.
[23:04] Yeah, anyway, but it also affected the enjoyment of the joy that was connected to it, that is attached to it.
[23:09] Yeah.
[23:10] So, yeah.
[23:12] Great.
[23:14] Cool, bro.
[23:16] Cool story, bro.
[23:19] It does, this is probably off topic now, but that does remind me of the thing we were talking about yesterday about that new Rick Rubin book and his idea of success is just getting something to a point where you feel comfortable sharing it with someone.
[23:32] Yeah.
[23:32] And that's all success is.
[23:33] Oh, that's nice.
[23:34] And past that, you have no control over anything.
[23:36] Yeah.
[23:37] Which feels like a similar sentiment, but it's not really about perfectionism.
[23:40] So, yeah.
[23:41] Park that for another ep.
[23:42] Yeah.
[23:43] It's not connected, yeah.
[23:45] I guess it is, yeah.
[23:46] I think there's an acceptance that within built into that is that it's never going to be perfect.
[23:51] So you just need to get to a point where you're comfortable with something to share it.
[23:54] I had the, like writing my second book, I did a whole chapter on perfectionism and it was, it dawned on me at two in the morning once when I was just pouring over it and I was just like, I was so stressed.
[24:05] I was like, I remember thinking to myself, this is not perfect yet.
[24:07] And I was writing a chapter on that and I had to, and I was like, I have to.
[24:12] So that's what makes me think it is related to that because I wish I had the mindset of like, I'm happy enough to share this with people now.
[24:17] Like it's not perfect.
[24:19] It's a chapter on perfectionism.
[24:21] It's not perfect.
[24:22] And I just wish I had that thing of like, I'm happy to share it though.
[24:24] And that's okay too, like for me, about that whole process is that perfectionism can feel really lonely.
[24:32] And so those moments where you're sharing, it's like it starts to, well, it can start to diffuse that striving part.
[24:40] So letting it go unfinished, I mean, that's a huge challenge and we'll come to, you know, how to work with that.
[24:47] But it just really struck me that like that example of like two in the morning, it's a really lonely process being in that perfectionistic mind.
[24:56] Can perfectionism be shared?
[24:58] Like if you're working as a team or a duo or whatever, can that team carry the same perfection and put the pressure on themselves as a team?
[25:09] Does that happen?
[25:09] Yeah, I think certain workplaces certainly do that.
[25:12] That there's a culture of expectation and like a culture of like unrelenting standards
[25:19] And as soon as we've achieved this bar, then the bar is set higher again.
[25:22] Yeah.
[25:22] So absolutely, certain workplaces can really reinforce that tendency.
[25:29] I've been going through...
[25:30] I've been wondering whether I should bring this up because the timing of when this episode will be released and what we're doing.
[25:36] So maybe we can cut this out, but I thought I'd bring it up.
[25:38] It might be an interesting discussion.
[25:41] For our live shows, I've got to do something that's really, really vulnerable for me.
[25:46] Well, I guess this will be released after we've put some live shows out there.
[25:50] So hopefully...
[25:51] I will have performed a song I've written to people, lyrics and all, which is very, very daunting.
[25:59] I've got about four words at this point that I'm happy with.
[26:02] But I found that when I first sort of started thinking about this process in about December last year, I was in a really good headspace about it and felt good and felt like I was a new person approaching this task.
[26:15] And then I've had things busy and I had a setback where this guitar I bought to write it on got stolen.
[26:20] And then I just sort of have gotten into a bit of a rut and I'm finding that I'm in this old thought pattern that I used to be in when I was trying to write music years ago of this has to be, this song has to be as good as like something off.
[26:35] Like I've listened to a lot of Bon Iver recently.
[26:36] It has to be as good as that or it's a failure.
[26:39] Like I have to make this.
[26:42] perfect.
[26:43] And I have to make it better than, like, so exceptional that, like, it blows everyone away and everyone's like, whoa, this guy's amazing.
[26:50] And this, and that thing of me being what you were saying before about me being okay.
[26:55] It feels very cognitively, like it comes back to that, that like, I'll be a failure if I don't hit that bar.
[27:02] So as you can imagine, I haven't been able to write much recently.
[27:05] But can I just ask what, what is your, what is your measure of perfection?
[27:10] Yeah.
[27:11] Like when you think about Bon Iver, like what is, what do you see?
[27:14] Like, cause it's the quality of that is you could describe it in so many different ways.
[27:20] That whatever I do evokes the emotional response that for the entire audience that I get when I listen to a song of his.
[27:27] Yeah, no pressure.
[27:29] Yeah, pretty.
[27:30] Yeah, I know.
[27:31] It's ridiculous to say out loud, but it's like suffocating on the ability to actually do that.
[27:35] That's a crazy standard to set yourself like considering, yeah.
[27:38] So the thought, I hope you don't mind, Josh, the thought was kind of going through my mind as you were saying that.
[27:42] Well, there were a few things, but the first one was imagining that you do set, like you do reach that.
[27:49] What do you imagine would happen?
[27:53] Yeah.
[27:58] I mean, there's a fantasy that, well, the fantasy is so unrealistic, but it's feeding these old desires of like people just thinking I'm brilliant at that.
[28:11] So I think the fantasy is that I'll get validation and recognition that I never quite achieved in a past life.
[28:20] Yeah.
[28:23] Yeah, I think I'm probably – like we've done enough shows and talked enough for me to know that it's probably going to be a fleeting – and I've actually created enough stuff in my life that I'd like to know that the feeling of satisfaction on something, if you do go with that product of a process –
[28:43] the feeling of that was good enough lasts for about two minutes or something.
[28:47] Yeah.
[28:48] And that was, and then disappears straight away.
[28:49] And that was my next question is that like, is that imagined outcome worth the costs of getting there?
[28:59] That's a good question.
[29:02] I would have,
[29:04] I do feel like there's a previous me and a new me since having children and making the show.
[29:08] Previous me, I definitely would have said that the cost is worth it.
[29:12] But I'm not so sure now.
[29:14] But I'm also not ready to – because I think I still really want it.
[29:18] So I'm not quite ready to say that the cost isn't worth it.
[29:20] Yeah.
[29:21] Yeah, would be about as honest as I think I can answer it.
[29:25] Yeah, but the reason why I brought all that up is because when you were talking before about that feeling of enoughness and okayness, and yeah, I think it does all come down to that.
[29:40] That's like the acorn at the middle of all that noise.
[29:44] Yeah, absolutely.
[29:46] Being enough?
[29:47] Yeah, I think so.
[29:48] Yeah, yeah.
[29:48] Yeah, being enough, which I haven't felt like I needed for a very, very long time but for some reason.
[29:54] I think it's the process of trying to write music is sort of, to use maybe overused words, is a little bit triggering of old emotional thoughts and patterns and things that I've.
[30:06] that were going on years ago and I'm like it's hard to try and do the activity that was so strongly linked to those thoughts again without them.
[30:14] It's like they come in as part of the process.
[30:17] And to be honest, whether I get there or not, as in write a song for the live show, I think is basically about how much whether I'm going to be able to push through these emotions and the perfectionism.
[30:33] Yeah.
[30:34] Absolutely, and they really kind of highlight the origins for us of perfectionism and those unrelenting standards.
[30:42] Yeah.
[30:43] And if we look at the function, I think this is really important too in recognising is that there is a really adaptive function, and I probably say this all the time, but there's a really adaptive function to perfectionism as children.
[30:56] Meaning we adopt that behaviour or that way of being as a person
[31:04] as a way of fitting into our environment or surviving in our environment.
[31:08] Yeah.
[31:09] So, you know, if you think about a child who has, I mean, there's so many different ways in which this occurs and I've said this at the beginning, but if we think about having highly critical parents, it would have been really dangerous not to be aiming to be perfect.
[31:25] to achieve or to avoid punishment.
[31:28] Yeah.
[31:28] So it's a really adaptive skill that we're striving as as little kids, because it means we avoid punishment, criticism, or we actually secure this sense of feeling loved and feeling seen.
[31:41] Yeah, I feel, sorry to jump in, I feel the need to say that our parents were not hypercritical and were very loving and I think my thing stems from, not from anything to do with them, but the timing of the eating disorder that came into our life and my attempt to fill a role of perfectionism then to try and make everything and make sure I wasn't causing any,
[32:07] And that is exactly what was standing out to me.
[32:10] And that is that there are, like I said, there are so many different manifestations in how this happens.
[32:16] And one of them is that if I am perfect or if I'm striving to achieve and not cause any problems for my parents, then that keeps everyone safer.
[32:27] So if I'm almost like flying under the radar by not causing any ripples, I'm getting the marks that I need at school, I'm not having any problems, I'm obedient, all those things really functional and help you feel safe as a child.
[32:43] And also you see the reinforcing benefit from your parents, for example.
[32:48] Yeah, yeah, because it is helping at the time.
[32:50] Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[32:51] That's amazing because I don't have it so much anymore, but I, in fact, only recently managed to let it go, but I adopted, when Josh was adopting his perfectionism around that stuff, I developed my own version, which was...
[33:04] socially in social situations, I will be perfect.
[33:08] Oh, yeah.
[33:09] Yeah, yeah.
[33:09] That was my thing because at the dinner table, when someone's quite sick, if you can facilitate a really fun time, that's very well like, you know, that's a great thing to be able to do.
[33:22] And so that became my thing, but it didn't just stay at the dinner table in my family.
[33:25] It was like all social situations.
[33:27] Yeah.
[33:28] And it was only recently I've managed to not feel the pressure to do that.
[33:33] But yeah, so that's funny that we were six years apart, but developing as a result of that, we're both developing our own perfectionist traits.
[33:42] How important is it, do you think, for people to – exactly what Josh just – or both Josh and Hugh just did, but to, like, acknowledge where the perfectionism comes from, like whether it be through therapy or however, is it an important thing to be able to kind of, like, self-analyse or to do talk therapy of some sort to pinpoint what it was that kind of led you to this perfectionist lifestyle?
[34:10] Yeah.
[34:12] I think yes and no.
[34:13] I think from a therapeutic point of view, you know, most therapeutic approaches really are in some ways about uncovering these automatic default experiences, both internal and external.
[34:27] And so for me at least, it feels really important to understand, you know, how it is that these ways of being now are,
[34:36] were helpful for you in the past but maybe not so helpful now.
[34:40] Yeah.
[34:41] Okay, yeah.
[34:42] But there are things that we can do in the present moment that don't require you to have, you know, really in-depth therapeutic experiences of knowing what happened when you were a child.
[34:52] Yeah.
[34:53] So it's both.
[34:53] I think we can certainly do things without having a full kind of in-depth understanding of your internal experience as children.
[35:00] I think it can be very beneficial to know that
[35:03] I think from, you know, particularly if you're seeing a therapist who's using a schema approach, then understanding the development of internal schemas that arise through early childhood experiences is fairly fundamental.
[35:18] Can you explain schema?
[35:20] So it's a core belief in essence.
[35:23] Yeah.
[35:23] And it informs how we relate to people in the world.
[35:27] And to come back to your point, Josh, about being kind of triggered, it's that those schemas will get triggered in certain contexts that are similar.
[35:37] Yeah.
[35:38] If that makes sense.
[35:39] Yeah, yeah.
[35:42] Yeah, come to think of it, it's no coincidence that I started playing music, singing and performing at the exact same time as this as well.
[35:50] And it was kind of became a thing that I was good at and got a lot of credit for at the very time I was trying to be perfect.
[35:57] And it was kind of my...
[35:58] So it's kind of maybe that's linked that I hadn't thought of that until then, but that the music is sort of linked as well.
[36:06] It's...
[36:07] tethered to the to that core belief more strongly than other aspects of my life because I certainly don't feel it with um basically anything else now well your your performances of Pete Murray and and um Jack Johnson are still talked about assembly the assembly performances
[36:27] Because Penny was the year below Josh at school and everyone remembers Josh's assembly performances.
[36:31] So I thought they were quite perfect.
[36:32] Wow.
[36:33] It was probably because he was performing topless.
[36:38] Josh, when you were writing, other than doing the covers, but when you were writing music, was any of it about your –
[36:47] Current experience then?
[36:48] Like, were you writing about that?
[36:50] You mean lyrically?
[36:51] Yeah, lyrically.
[36:52] Current experience?
[36:55] Whatever your life was like, were you writing about what was going on in your life?
[36:59] I never went too far down the path of writing lyrics.
[37:02] It stopped.
[37:03] Oh, you didn't?
[37:04] Okay.
[37:04] Yeah, okay, sure.
[37:04] Like I didn't.
[37:05] I wrote a lot of music for people.
[37:07] Like I played in bands with people and would write music parts but would always avoid lyrical content.
[37:14] Yeah, okay.
[37:14] Yeah.
[37:15] After the notebook incident.
[37:16] After the notebook, yeah.
[37:17] Not the film.
[37:17] No.
[37:19] the incident yes yeah because that was probably the incident is something you talked about on the show and we can we'll link to that episode so people know what it is so you say that it's really helpful to have sorry it can be helpful to identify what causes it but there are things you can do in the moment to sort of divorce yourself from those feelings I'm interested to know what those things are that you can do
[37:41] So there are heaps of things actually and I should preface this by saying that these are just a number of strategies and there's certainly not all of them.
[37:52] And in preparing for this podcast I was like, oh, gosh, there's so much information that I could talk about this for a long time.
[37:59] So these are just some small things to pay attention to.
[38:04] But the first thing for me really is looking at,
[38:08] or a reflection upon what are the costs of this behaviour for me.
[38:13] So getting a sense of, you know, is this the way I want to live my life?
[38:19] Sometimes a really useful exercise, and this comes from acceptance and commitment therapy approach to do with kind of identifying values, but sometimes it's really helpful to even imagine being 80 and looking back on your life and thinking about how it is that you want people to remember you.
[38:36] And sometimes in that context, it's also really useful to identify, you know, how much will it have mattered that I've spent an extra five hours on this particular thing?
[38:47] And is that cost, though, really worth it in the end?
[38:51] So I think, first of all, really having some time to reflect upon yourself.
[38:55] What is this costing me?
[38:58] And like a really, like for me, a simple example of this might be, and this is relevant for people that have kids and doing birthday parties, how much time goes into making the cake?
[39:12] It was Charlie's birthday party on Sunday a couple of days ago.
[39:15] Yeah, and so how much time goes into it, but also what is the striving attached to it, for example?
[39:20] So making the cake may feel really joyous and it may feel really fun and you know this is something that you're doing for your child, but for some people it may feel really stressful that it must be perfect, it must be looking this way for my child.
[39:38] And what happens to your experience of joyfulness in those moments?
[39:41] And also what happens when you bring the cake out and there are a million kids here and like people are blowing candles and then someone puts their hand in the cake.
[39:48] You know, what's happened to that experience for you?
[39:51] And so, again, this question is like, is the cost worth it for me?
[39:58] The second part of that is...
[40:03] thinking about this kind of notion of the law of diminishing returns.
[40:07] So if I only get a 5% extra outcome on this, again, is that really worth the striving that happened for me?
[40:16] I think about it in terms of like if you have people over for dinner and you're cooking dinner and some people put a lot of pressure on themselves to create this incredible dinner party experience and it's very stressful and it's like getting these incredible ingredients.
[40:34] But as a dinner party guest –
[40:37] I, the dinner parties that I really love and remember don't often have a lot to do with the quality of the food.
[40:45] It's the feeling of the, of the night and the people who are there.
[40:48] Um, and the chats we have, it's just like, it's the way that you feel during that dinner party.
[40:55] Um,
[40:56] But as a dinner party host, often the stresses are about like, well, make sure we get the good salmon or make sure it's like – but at the end of the day, I think that is that law of diminishing returns where it's like just because you've spent $5 more on that pasta and you've got it perfectly al dente, that isn't really going to affect the enjoyment levels of the guests.
[41:18] I would say it's going to lessen it, come to think of it.
[41:20] Because having been the person who tries to get the $5 extra salmon many times and failed, because then as the host, you're sitting there going, is that?
[41:33] No one's mentioned the salmon.
[41:34] No one's mentioned the salmon.
[41:34] No one mentioned it.
[41:35] Jeez, that pasta was good and no one's mentioned it.
[41:37] And I'm not getting the credit that I deserve for the days I've put into this.
[41:41] Yeah, and even in that.
[41:42] So then you're out of it and you're not.
[41:44] Yeah.
[41:44] Yeah.
[41:45] And then you get this exposure to shame or blame or failure.
[41:50] But you don't get connection.
[41:52] Yeah.
[41:52] Yeah.
[41:53] Yeah.
[41:54] yeah absolutely that's a really good one it's that great thing who said I can never remember who said things I can't remember if I heard it on a podcast or someone said it on this podcast but it's that line I'm pretty sure someone said it on this podcast maybe it was you Em the don't it's like it's don't make don't try and impress people like try and make a good impression on people is that right
[42:18] Did someone say that?
[42:18] Did you say that?
[42:19] Make a connection, not an impression.
[42:20] Maybe it's that.
[42:21] Is that what I said?
[42:21] Maybe you said that, yeah.
[42:23] And I think about that a lot because I feel like naturally we try and make a good impression, try and impress people when we meet them.
[42:32] Maybe tell them about something that you've done in the past to try and impress them in a way so they'll think that you're really talented or you're worthy of their time.
[42:42] Whereas like when I think about it, that's like, yes, making a connection and being and just focusing on that and not trying to impress them anyway.
[42:51] That was huge.
[42:52] I think about that a lot.
[42:55] I forgot you said it.
[42:56] Well, actually, it wasn't me.
[42:57] I can't attribute that it was actually me specifically, but I did say it in the podcast.
[43:02] Oh, yeah.
[43:02] So, it was Ron Siegel who's original.
[43:05] Siegel.
[43:06] Don't want to be claiming things that I haven't said.
[43:09] So, following on from kind of really having this moment of being able to reflect upon the costs of these experiences for me, I think we can also be a little bit playful around, well, how can I make small efforts to change how I relate to these striving experiences?
[43:23] Yeah.
[43:24] And part of that might be, let's just say you're organising a dinner party and picking something small that you can cut a corner with.
[43:36] So choosing something that feels really manageable and seeing if I can practise cutting a corner with,
[43:42] and tolerating the feelings of discomfort that arise in not doing it perfectly.
[43:48] So we don't want you to jump into, like, for example, for me, if I just came in here and I hadn't prepared anything, that would be too much.
[43:59] I would feel like that would be too exposing and it would possibly reinforce for me other things.
[44:04] Mm-hmm.
[44:06] So you don't want to cut corners on things that are really important initially, but practicing exposing yourself to little moments of discomfort and potential failure is really helpful.
[44:20] So it starts to expand our capacity to be with those uncomfortable feelings that show up.
[44:27] So you make a packet mixed cake instead of a packet from scratch.
[44:31] Yeah, yeah.
[44:31] Exactly.
[44:32] Yeah, yeah.
[44:33] And just see how that feels.
[44:35] And so then we get this evidence to say, actually, it wasn't as catastrophic as I thought it would be.
[44:41] Because that's usually what happens is that the mind gets so busy predicting how catastrophic the outcome will be if I don't do all of these things.
[44:50] So this is exposure therapy you're talking about?
[44:52] Yeah, I mean, yeah, in some ways.
[44:55] And I think that's probably the key for most, you know, working with most uncomfortable thoughts, feelings and sensations is we need to learn how to be with all of those things and that is exposure.
[45:06] Like leaning into the discomfort.
[45:08] Yes.
[45:08] Yeah.
[45:09] In a sort of safe, incremental way.
[45:11] Yeah, yeah.
[45:12] That makes it totally safe.
[45:13] I guess in the – I'm just going to the example of the cake, but if it's like making a pre-mixed one, just going, it won't taste as perfect as the one I was going to make, but I'm getting an extra 45 minutes with my kids who I'm making it for in the first place to impress them.
[45:30] So that's the cost.
[45:32] Yeah.
[45:33] Okay.
[45:34] So then we can have a look, you know, when we're doing those sorts of little experiments is just to pay attention to our internal experience.
[45:40] So maybe noticing, you know, is my body feeling tight and contracted?
[45:45] Do I have like some kind of like rushing feeling in the body?
[45:48] Like a rushing feeling in the body is very common when we're in that kind of perfectionistic striving.
[45:53] So if we cut a corner and we go, okay, this feels pretty uncomfortable, but I've also dropped this driving, so what's that like?
[46:01] It's this kind of moment of being really able to notice, pause, take a breath.
[46:06] How is this feeling when I'm cutting this corner?
[46:10] Self-compassion becomes really, really important when it comes to working with perfectionism because the inner critic is so strong for someone that is highly perfectionistic.
[46:22] They go side by side.
[46:24] If I am not perfect, then my inner critic is very loud.
[46:29] So the practice of self-compassion becomes so critical in my mind.
[46:34] Yeah.
[46:35] So in order to practice self-compassion, what I had to do, what was really powerful for me was understanding why I wanted to be perfect in social situations.
[46:41] So to go about what we were talking about before, thinking I wanted to be perfect in social situations to try and create a lot of fun and love in my family at a really challenging time.
[46:52] I look back on that and I think, well, that makes total sense.
[46:55] Of course I did.
[46:57] And like, I think that's a really good thing that I did that.
[46:59] And so, but that understanding that enabled me to be more compassionate with myself now to when it pops up, if I'm in a social situation, I think I'm not really offering much here or haven't seen anything funny here or I think it's okay.
[47:13] You're not sitting at the dinner table with your family, like trying to save people from like...
[47:17] This is just a very lovely time that you're having.
[47:20] You can just be interested.
[47:21] You don't need to be performing here or whatever it is.
[47:24] So understanding the root of the problem for me was huge there because that enabled me to practice self-compassion.
[47:29] Does that make sense?
[47:30] Yes.
[47:31] Is it kind of like acknowledging what's the intention behind the striving?
[47:36] Sort of like knowing what the intention is at any moment.
[47:38] And then empathizing with yourself to go –
[47:41] Yeah, you empathise with that version of yourself that thinks that it needs to perform in that social situation.
[47:46] I'm like, yeah, mate, you don't.
[47:48] It's so nice that you want to, and I get why you want to, but you don't need to.
[47:51] Like, you can just listen to people and that's fine.
[47:53] So, can we go through them just in order?
[47:56] Have you got more, obviously?
[47:57] I do.
[47:58] I've got so many, but we'll be here all day otherwise.
[48:00] Okay, so the first thing we've talked about is picturing yourself as an 80-year-old and you're looking back on your life and you're trying to think about the way you'd like to be remembered.
[48:08] So that's the first one.
[48:09] The second one was the law of diminishing returns.
[48:13] The third one was practicing exposing yourself to not being perfect and just seeing how that actually feels.
[48:20] And then the fourth one we've talked about just then is practicing self-compassion.
[48:25] Yep.
[48:25] What else have you got for us?
[48:26] They're the first, what are the next 96?
[48:28] Yeah, exactly.
[48:29] So we're doing 100 I'm assuming.
[48:30] This is like my perfectionistic striving coming in, get it all in.
[48:35] There's a couple of things that feel important to add in there.
[48:38] The first is self-care and I know this feels so cliched but I really would invite people to think about how are you actually practising self-care and are those practices maybe even also buying into that striving?
[48:53] And I'll give you an example.
[48:56] In, let's just say, you know, the self-care practice is exercise.
[49:02] And so we find someone will go out and do a run.
[49:05] And so when I ask them, you know, what was that like?
[49:09] And they're like, well, it's pretty stressful.
[49:10] I was like, why is that?
[49:12] Because I was timing myself to the minute.
[49:15] And, yep.
[49:17] Yeah.
[49:18] Could we?
[49:18] That's huge.
[49:19] We've done the podcast a minute.
[49:20] So we could, yeah, that was nice.
[49:21] Sorry.
[49:24] Yeah, so that part of your experience is framed as self-care because I'm getting exercise, that actual experience comes with a stress response.
[49:36] Oh, God, what's wrong with this?
[49:39] So, and like even personally for me, like when I, like pre-children, when I used to go running, I definitely used to run to time and something changed for me.
[49:50] I don't know, for various reasons.
[49:53] I know I just run till I feel like stopping and I don't take a watch and it's completely different.
[50:00] That's, yeah.
[50:02] I mean, Hugh's going to have more to say about this than me, but just on that, I was at a swimming pool.
[50:07] I've started doing laps, swimming laps, and I saw someone I knew there and I said, oh, how many laps are you, because I'm like up to eight laps, and that's like big, big for me having never been a swimmer.
[50:17] And I said to this woman, I said, how many laps are you doing?
[50:21] And she's like, oh, yeah.
[50:23] It was the weirdest question for her.
[50:26] She was like, oh, I don't know exactly what you just said.
[50:28] She was like, I just swim until I have to go.
[50:30] Yeah.
[50:32] You told me that story yesterday.
[50:33] It stressed me out all last night.
[50:35] Because I was like, okay, well, yeah.
[50:38] Because for her, it's just like it's the act of just mindfulness.
[50:42] It's mindfulness for her.
[50:43] She just likes the act of swimming.
[50:46] Whereas for me, because I'm starting, I want to get better.
[50:49] And for me, I'm counting my lap because I'm doing only eight, which is good for me.
[50:54] But, yeah, I guess it's different for different people, but I can't wait until I get to the point where I'm not counting.
[51:01] Yeah.
[51:01] I think it stresses me out.
[51:02] Yeah.
[51:03] My thing very quickly is that during the week when I'm training, I love it so much.
[51:07] And I have so much data on every single thing that I do.
[51:10] So I know my exact times.
[51:12] And I'm okay with them fluctuating.
[51:14] It's just when it gets to the weekend and I have a race, if it's slower than the weekend before, like absolutely shattered.
[51:21] And just ruins that.
[51:23] And I know I shouldn't be.
[51:23] I know I'm like, well, it's just like slower conditions today.
[51:26] You weren't as fast today.
[51:26] Yeah.
[51:27] But it is just devastating.
[51:29] So why am I doing all this training for when I'm actually getting slower?
[51:32] And so that's that space of really moving into self-compassion.
[51:36] So, you know, it matters to you, right?
[51:39] So, and that's important.
[51:41] You know, it matters to you that you're improving or that you're progressing.
[51:45] And so, you know, I feel disappointed.
[51:48] And so then we can really, you know, even in that kind of sense or feeling of failure, you can still bring in, you know, this feels hard for me.
[51:57] And, you know, hand on your heart, you know, taking a few deep breaths, like really acknowledging that this difficulty is here right now, grounding your feet on the floor and even so just labelling and acknowledging that this is what's happening and it's okay that you feel disappointed.
[52:14] So then the question is in terms of like self-care for me is how- Sorry, I really derailed you there.
[52:21] No, but like choosing things that genuinely almost bring you a sense of playfulness.
[52:28] So, you know, things that don't have like an outcome.
[52:32] So things that you can just go and do without there needing to be like a marker of achievement.
[52:37] Or even things like if you go, let's just say massage is something that you might get the luxury of being able to do.
[52:44] If you're having a massage, are you striving in the massage?
[52:48] So like are you able to let go of the busy mind or can you come back to the sensations in the body?
[52:53] Does that make sense?
[52:55] It's funny you say that because I've never thought about this before but when I've had massages in the past,
[53:00] the thought does go through my head is like, I'm going to be so relaxed that the masseuse is going to be so impressed with how relaxed I am.
[53:09] I honestly think, because you know how like when you first get a message or something, you're tense and they sometimes have to say, just relax, you know, just relax.
[53:18] And so I'm like, and I try not to flinch at all when it gets heavy because in my head I think like, God, they must be thinking he's good at getting massages.
[53:28] Honestly, honestly think that.
[53:31] I don't know what you think of, like, I strive for them to go, like, God, you needed a mess out.
[53:35] Like, you are so tense.
[53:37] You strive for the opposite.
[53:38] Yeah, I strive for them to be, like, that's one of the most messed up backs I've ever had.
[53:42] Because you are, like, because it's like I want to be validated that I needed one.
[53:46] So my mess out story, very quickly, is that I've got a mess out.
[53:49] Is this okay for anyone?
[53:54] I got remedial massage over the summer holidays and it was a lady I'd never met before.
[53:58] And so I just, to make conversation halfway through the massage, I said, so how long have you been doing this for?
[54:04] And she said, about 25 minutes.
[54:10] Oh, no, sorry.
[54:10] Oh, okay.
[54:11] Could we have a drink?
[54:13] That's great.
[54:15] Anyway, sorry.
[54:16] Oh, dear.
[54:17] So self-care, seeing if you can find things, like really having some time to think about what are the things I can do that are genuinely about nourishment rather than achieving or striving.
[54:27] Okay.
[54:29] So that's something to really kind of have a moment to reflect on, I think.
[54:32] I think all three of us are trying to think about this.
[54:34] I know.
[54:35] I mean, I'm just personally thinking of me flying the kite, which I've obviously mentioned before.
[54:38] Oh, yeah.
[54:38] Like, that's definitely an example.
[54:42] There could be things like making things with your hands.
[54:45] Sorry, have I missed something?
[54:46] You flying a kite.
[54:48] I'm sure I've mentioned in the past like my joyfulness in flying a car.
[54:52] Yeah.
[54:52] Okay, yeah.
[54:53] Was it a present for your children?
[54:55] Yeah, definitely not for me.
[54:56] Yeah.
[54:58] Mind you.
[55:00] We've got Charlie for his birthday, this marble run thing.
[55:04] It's like magnets and clip things and you can make all these different tracks and loop the loops.
[55:08] I love it so much.
[55:10] Yeah.
[55:11] Yeah.
[55:11] And I'm just, it's every time I go to play with it, it's a real, like I've just got to make sure I'm not over, like letting him play with it because I feel like we got to play with it together and I'm sort of not letting him explore it enough because I just love it so much.
[55:23] Yeah.
[55:24] His story's great.
[55:25] I took my nephew, Ashton, to laser tag for his birthday because I don't spend a lot of time with kids.
[55:31] I don't have my own kids.
[55:32] And I forgot to not try my hardest at laser tag.
[55:37] And so I absolutely smashed him.
[55:41] He did nor enjoy it.
[55:45] I pre-bought two games.
[55:46] He only wanted to play one.
[55:48] You went in for this.
[55:49] Just right out of here, actually.
[55:50] Like, Jam was taking, like, I've watched back videos, and I am, like, walking like a SWAT team.
[55:58] So seriously.
[55:59] There's one bit where... Dead.
[56:01] Yeah, Ashton's like, he's like eight.
[56:03] And he's like right behind me, just following me.
[56:05] And as soon as I come back to life, he's shooting me.
[56:07] And he's having a great time.
[56:08] And I got genuinely annoyed.
[56:10] I was like, you can't just follow me around.
[56:19] chilled out after that and the other part of this too is in terms of goal setting is thinking about how you set goals that are genuinely consistent with what you value as opposed to setting goals that buy into that perfectionistic tendency which may be goals that you think others want you to reach and that which is a which is a bottomless well it is absolutely bottomless yeah
[56:45] Yeah, you'll never achieve that from what I – Yeah, it's like you'd never – yeah, if you're basing your goals on what you think other people will find impressive, yeah, it's a never-ending chase.
[56:58] On the topic of the cake, I think that I have a level of –
[57:01] quite a high level of perfectionism attached to cooking to a degree and I'm trying really hard to rid myself of it.
[57:06] And I do want praise from my mum, especially because she's a really good cook.
[57:12] And it was Charlie's birthday on Sunday.
[57:14] I made this cake and I put a fair bit of effort in.
[57:19] I felt like I was being quiet.
[57:20] I was like doing what you – because there would have been a much harder cake to make and I went for an easier version.
[57:25] So I thought that was pretty good for me.
[57:28] And then I called mum to talk to her about it and tell her what I was doing and ask some questions.
[57:34] And she was like, oh, I always just made packet mix cakes for your birthday.
[57:37] And I was like, oh, the only person I thought would have cared and noticed had just – and I'd already made the cake by that point.
[57:44] But it was an interesting thing of like, oh, I realised I was doing that for her approval, not for my own.
[57:50] It certainly wasn't for Charlie's.
[57:52] No.
[57:52] As if three-year-olds are going to know the difference between a chocolate cake that's got lint chocolate or its packet mix.
[57:59] I feel like the pressure on making kids' birthday cakes, the blame for that lays squarely on Hamish Blake.
[58:06] I was going to say before when you mentioned it, I was like, I hope Hamish isn't listening because I want him to keep making those cakes because it's bloody great content.
[58:14] But that's interesting too is then that is it's actually in the end, no one really cares, like from what I can say, no one really cares what it looks like at the end.
[58:20] It's that whole process of watching him doing it, which is exactly what we're talking about is –
[58:25] And the fun he had.
[58:26] The joy for it.
[58:26] The excuse to drink that much whiskey.
[58:29] Yeah.
[58:30] So that's a great example of like process over product and really being very present.
[58:38] Like this is exactly what I'm doing right now.
[58:40] Well, on the cake, I make Benji's cake every day and he chooses what he wants.
[58:43] And I don't do Hamish-like stories.
[58:45] I always just do a before and after.
[58:48] and this year he wanted a pirate, and we were down at the beach and so I had less resources and was less organized, and the end product, it just looked strange.
[58:58] By far, everyone's favorite.
[59:00] Everyone thought it was hilarious.
[59:01] It didn't really look ridiculous.
[59:04] Benji loved it.
[59:05] The response on social media was so much more love for it because it was so far from perfect.
[59:09] Some of the ones I've done I've been quite happy with.
[59:12] They're like, oh, that's good.
[59:13] People loved the imperfections of it, and so did Benji.
[59:17] Like the eye patch.
[59:20] He goes, what's that on his head?
[59:21] Because it didn't look like an eye patch.
[59:24] And I said, it's an eye patch.
[59:25] He found it really funny that that was mine.
[59:26] So, yeah, I think it's like this.
[59:29] It was a really nice reminder to me that the imperfections are what connect us so often.
[59:35] It was the irony of this whole conversation really is that, well, this whole not the conversation, the irony of the topic is that we strive for perfection to belong and to be loved and
[59:45] and to have approval.
[59:47] And yet what connects us more than anything, I think, is the imperfections of our journey.
[59:50] Yeah, it's like perfection is very hard to relate to.
[59:55] It's like watching someone do something perfectly is like, well, they're on a different level than me.
[1:00:00] Whereas like watching someone stuff it up, like watching someone run a 100-meter sprint, I want to hang out with the guy who like falls over halfway through rather than the guy who like sets a new record.
[1:00:13] I'm like, well done, that's great.
[1:00:15] But we're not going to have much to talk about.
[1:00:17] We're going to have a lot to talk about with the guy who fell over.
[1:00:20] He seems great.
[1:00:21] I was planning to show you the replay of my race from last night today.
[1:00:24] I don't think I'll show you that now because I didn't fall over.
[1:00:27] I may be milking the cake analogy a bit too much or story, but I did it a different way.
[1:00:35] I made it with Charlie, but it was a really –
[1:00:41] What you were saying before about when you're 80, looking back in your life of the person you want to be, I often think about my own many behaviors about what I'm projecting to my kids.
[1:00:51] And I don't want to project perfectionism to them at all.
[1:00:54] So, making this cake with him was a really – it was like a high-level cognitive task of like –
[1:01:00] It was a rainbow cake, so it involved sorting all the M&Ms into colours and then lining them up on the cake.
[1:01:07] And he was helping me.
[1:01:09] He got them all in different colours.
[1:01:10] We started putting them on and he started putting them in the wrong place.
[1:01:13] And I had this thing of like, do I?
[1:01:15] And I think I reckon I probably overdid trying to get it right as opposed to just having a good time with him.
[1:01:22] But it was this continual thing of like...
[1:01:24] There's a discomfort that was showing up, right?
[1:01:26] Oh, yeah.
[1:01:26] And I was like...
[1:01:27] That's the green.
[1:01:28] You should put a green on the orange line there.
[1:01:30] It's Roy G. Biv.
[1:01:31] I had to like take it off and move it back.
[1:01:33] And even as you describe it, I can see.
[1:01:35] Roy G. Biv.
[1:01:36] Rainbow.
[1:01:37] Yeah, red, orange, yellow, green, blue.
[1:01:40] I did not know that.
[1:01:40] Yeah, Roy G. Biv.
[1:01:41] Yeah.
[1:01:42] This is such a helpful podcast.
[1:01:43] Yeah, and I knew I was like.
[1:01:44] That's the thing.
[1:01:45] That's the thing that I should remember.
[1:01:48] Listen to Dr. M. Roy G. Biv.
[1:01:51] That's the title of the ep.
[1:01:54] A new connection is more important here than getting it right, but I couldn't help but get the rainbow right.
[1:01:59] Amazing.
[1:02:00] Yeah.
[1:02:00] Amazing example.
[1:02:01] Yeah.
[1:02:02] Yeah.
[1:02:03] So there's just one other thing.
[1:02:04] Well, there's, as I said a million times, there's lots of other things, but...
[1:02:09] There's an author and therapist, Lynn Lyons, in the States who I think provides a really great kind of question or reflection point that got me really thinking about the statement, just do your best.
[1:02:27] And actually how problematic that becomes for someone that's a perfectionist.
[1:02:32] Oh, yeah.
[1:02:32] Just to do your best.
[1:02:33] Yeah.
[1:02:34] That's all that's required.
[1:02:36] Yeah.
[1:02:37] So when we say that, I mean, when we say that to kids, for some kids it's completely not an issue.
[1:02:42] Yeah.
[1:02:43] But for perfectionists, like when there are perfectionistic tendencies there, this is like, well, how do I know where my best is?
[1:02:51] Like how do I know when to stop?
[1:02:54] Great question.
[1:02:55] And I think that that is a really important kind of way of reflecting upon this kind of unrelenting standard of achievement.
[1:03:05] And so then like in response to that is like, okay, well, what do I do about that then?
[1:03:09] And so, you know, if that is the case in terms of that kind of statement, we do need like some kind of criteria to judge when we've finished or when we've done enough.
[1:03:19] And so like within a working context, it might be something like –
[1:03:23] setting time limits.
[1:03:24] So five hours is like that's when I'm tapping out.
[1:03:28] So that has to be the end point.
[1:03:31] In my experience with some perfectionists that are very kind of driven to be doing the hard work.
[1:03:40] that they don't really do drafts.
[1:03:43] So the product is in its completion.
[1:03:48] At the time, there's no such thing as doing draft work because every sentence, every word needs to be exactly how it should be.
[1:03:55] So the prospect of doing a draft is like actually what even is a draft?
[1:03:59] So one of the things, am I making sense to this?
[1:04:02] So one of the things I think can be helpful is to actually to see, like can you do a rough draft and submit it to someone and get their feedback?
[1:04:10] Because often what can happen is that person will say, actually this is completely fine.
[1:04:13] You don't need to do anything.
[1:04:15] Yeah.
[1:04:16] So like practicing drafts, having a time limit, having some kind of validated criteria that says that this is enough for me.
[1:04:26] Yep.
[1:04:27] So there might be another, like a myriad of other ways in which we can judge that.
[1:04:30] But I think that's an important thing to hold in the mind is like, just do your best.
[1:04:35] What happens when I hear that?
[1:04:37] Yeah, parameters.
[1:04:38] I love working within, like setting yourself like parameters, time parameters or whatever it might be.
[1:04:44] Like Lorne Michaels, who's the creator of Saturday Night Live in the States, his sort of famous quote is, the show's not ready when it's ready.
[1:04:56] It's ready when it's 11.30 Saturday night because they go live.
[1:04:59] So it's like there's no...
[1:05:02] they have a finite amount of time.
[1:05:03] So it might get to 11.30 on Saturday night and they all know that it's not perfect.
[1:05:09] But...
[1:05:10] they have to go to air.
[1:05:11] So it's ready.
[1:05:12] Like that is, that is the parameter of that show.
[1:05:15] If they had a year to make it, it might be better, might not be, but they have no choice because that's the format of the show.
[1:05:21] And I love that.
[1:05:24] It's sort of, it's exactly what you're saying.
[1:05:25] Like that setting, set yourself a time parameter.
[1:05:28] And I often find if I have a week to do something or a month to do something, you're going to end up with about the same product probably.
[1:05:37] That's a really good reflection.
[1:05:38] Yeah.
[1:05:39] It's like this, like often like that.
[1:05:40] There's only like a 5% difference like I mentioned before.
[1:05:43] Yeah.
[1:05:44] But the cost is really significant for that 5%.
[1:05:46] Yeah.
[1:05:47] Yeah.
[1:05:48] Because you just, you tweak and you tweak and you tweak and you think, well, I've got time.
[1:05:51] I may as well keep changing it.
[1:05:53] because the fallacy is that it will keep getting better if I keep working on it.
[1:05:58] But it's like that classic thing of a painter or an artist.
[1:06:02] It's like when do you know when to walk away?
[1:06:04] You've got to know when the right time is to walk away.
[1:06:06] When is it done?
[1:06:07] Because you could keep painting and make it worse.
[1:06:10] I'm going to be really philosophical here for a moment.
[1:06:13] Please.
[1:06:14] Voltaire.
[1:06:16] Legend.
[1:06:17] Do you know what I thought of?
[1:06:18] I thought of Voltaren.
[1:06:19] I was like Voltaren.
[1:06:21] Sorry, yeah, Voltaren.
[1:06:21] Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[1:06:22] Well, no, one of, like kind of a relatively famous quote of his is, perfection is the enemy of good.
[1:06:30] And I feel like that's actually kind of what sits at the key of what we're talking about here is that the striving for perfection is actually compromising so much of our life.
[1:06:42] Yeah, my mind's now thinking about the cost in being that you spend, you're at home for like you're, in my own case, you're sitting there with your kids and you're not thinking about your kids.
[1:06:52] You're thinking about this same perfectionist thing that you're trying to get right over and over.
[1:06:56] So you're not engaging with them.
[1:06:57] You're missing the connection there.
[1:06:59] you're missing so much of everyday life.
[1:07:03] For example, with the month over, it might be 5% better if you take a month over a week to do something because you want to get it perfect, but you spent a whole month ruminating and...
[1:07:14] out of life and missing out on the life that's going on around you and the connections in your life.
[1:07:19] And I think that's pretty – it doesn't get much bigger than that, I think, because it costs.
[1:07:23] And that's also why although perfectionism isn't a clinical diagnosis, it's a feature of so many clinical diagnoses.
[1:07:32] Right, yeah.
[1:07:34] And – Such as?
[1:07:35] Depression, anxiety, eating disorders, OCD, addiction –
[1:07:41] Right.
[1:07:41] Very common feature for lots of different reasons.
[1:07:47] But, you know, again, kind of coming back to this, you know, fear of failure, avoidance of shame, you know, when we're constantly in that kind of striving, it really leads us down a very vulnerable path towards kind of, you know, mental ill health.
[1:08:02] So I think that's really important to recognise that the cost is important
[1:08:05] you know, is significant.
[1:08:06] And there's also associations in terms of our physical health, absolutely.
[1:08:11] And we might know, for example, that, you know, after you've completed something really big, then often you get sick afterwards, such an indicator of like the state of the nervous system.
[1:08:20] Absolutely.
[1:08:21] End of the year.
[1:08:23] Last day of work.
[1:08:24] Three years in a row I got sick at the Christmas party.
[1:08:27] Like I started to get sick at the Christmas party, three years in a row.
[1:08:32] well it was always going to be a big ep on the imperfects when we talk about perfectionism probably makes sense I really hope this episode was perfect for everyone yeah we will definitely edit it a lot to make it perfect or do we just embrace it and we just put this out as it is here you go that would be a good challenge Dr. M thank you so much good to see you again that was just amazing thank you so much
[1:09:01] The Imperfects is hosted and produced by Hugh Van Kylenberg, Ryan Shelton and Josh Van Kylenberg.
[1:09:06] Our executive producer is Bridget North East.
[1:09:08] This episode was filmed by Andy Poole and edited by Jamison Moore.

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