# Osher Günsberg- In & Out Of Control

An episode of [The Imperfects](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1476501557), 13 Aug 2023, 1 h 23 min.

Audio: https://enrichment.soundstack.com/4vjqq8/episode.flightcast.com/k2b9k8guxtzkpvj12vivkjep.mp3

For 20 years, Osher Günsberg has been one of Australia’s most famous and successful TV/radio/podcast personalities. Since hosting the wildly popular Australian Idol, to handing out roses on The Bachelor (and SO MUCH in between), there aren’t many showbiz stories that rival Osher’s sustained success. But if we’ve learned anything on this podcast, behind every perfect story is an imperfect reality. And as you’ll hear in this honest chat with Hugh, Ryan and Josh, Osher’s journey has been exactly that... imperfect. Osher talks about his struggle with alcohol addiction, his relationship with control, and living with ADHD. He also explains why he decided to change his name at the height of his fame. To listen to Osher's podcast, Better Than Yesterday, follow this link: https://bit.ly/3YuYEjN For book recommendation, Emotional Agility, by Susan David, follow this link: https://bit.ly/3KF6GAV The Imperfects is not a licensed mental health service and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, treatment or assessment. This episode discusses alcohol abuse. If you are struggling with your relationship with alcohol, or other drugs, you can access free, confidential, 24/7 support from Counselling Online. https://www.counsellingonline.org.au/ Alternatively, seek support from friends and family, your local doctor, therapist, AA Group, or call lifeline on 13 11 14.

## Transcript

[0:00] My name is Bridget and I produce The Imperfects.
[0:03] I grew up in Australia, but my ancestors arrived by boat in search of gold during the 1800s.
[0:08] What I've come to realise is that they arrived on land that had been cared for by the Indigenous peoples of this continent for millennia.
[0:15] It was and always will be Aboriginal land.
[0:18] We at The Imperfects would like to acknowledge the Wurundjeri people of the Kulin Nation as the traditional owners of the land on which this podcast was recorded, and we extend our respects to their elders past and present.
[0:29] At The Imperfects, my job is to create a space for important stories to be heard.
[0:33] And in doing so, I pay homage to a rich history of storytelling cultivated by the world's oldest living culture.
[0:49] We're all imperfect.
[0:50] And on this podcast, I'll be chatting with a variety of interesting people who are willing to make themselves vulnerable by sharing their own struggles and imperfections.
[0:58] Then we'll discuss the invaluable takeaways we can all apply to our own imperfect lives.
[1:04] I'm Hugh Van Kylenberg from The Resilience Project.
[1:06] And I'm Ryan Shelton from My Mum.
[1:08] And I'm Josh from Hugh's Mum.
[1:11] And this is The Imperfects.
[1:18] Oh, good to see you guys.
[1:21] Great to see you.
[1:23] Wow.
[1:24] It's nice to be back.
[1:25] It's lovely.
[1:26] In the studio, in the round, because we're at a round table.
[1:29] So we've never actually called ourselves the Imperfects in the round.
[1:32] What is in the round?
[1:33] Well, in the round is like those concerts where it's usually the stadium and the artist is in literally in the middle and they perform to the entire 360 degrees.
[1:41] Oh, yeah.
[1:43] It's how Ed Sheeran is touring at the moment, isn't he?
[1:45] In the round.
[1:45] I think he's in the round and he rotates.
[1:47] And he's like, oh, I think he rotates around the round.
[1:50] Does that make sense?
[1:52] Ed Sheeran around in the round.
[1:53] Yeah.
[1:55] That I got to see.
[1:58] This is not ideal for me, this dad.
[1:59] I cannot laugh.
[2:01] Oh, of course.
[2:01] And this is not good.
[2:02] Yeah.
[2:03] So we need to explain.
[2:03] I mean, well, before you do get into it, I think, so this is a really, really, really interesting, great episode.
[2:10] This is with Osher Gunsberg.
[2:12] So, we'll play that really soon as we normally do.
[2:16] We have a little chat, then we play the interview and then we come back afterwards.
[2:19] But some of the stuff that Osher talks about, he talks about his addiction with alcohol when he changed his name.
[2:27] Originally, he was introduced to Australia as Andy G and then he changed to Osher Gunsberg.
[2:32] He's ADHD, talks a bit about, and then his, which really kind of fascinated me, his relationship with work and how he deals with fame and praise and all that sort of stuff, which I found fascinating.
[2:46] Yeah, then after that we'll come together and chat as we always do after these conversations.
[2:50] Yeah.
[2:50] And I couldn't believe how relevant a lot of OSHA's stuff was to my experience working with the Queensland State of Origin side.
[2:56] There was just so much stuff.
[2:58] Yeah, I noticed the similarities too.
[3:03] Sorry.
[3:03] That's funny.
[3:03] Hugh, for those who don't know, which is everyone except three of us, Hugh has this cough, as you can hear, which is not contagious anymore.
[3:14] So he tells us and you can't laugh, Hugh, as a result.
[3:17] If I laugh, it descends into a mad coughing fit.
[3:21] Okay.
[3:21] So instead you just say, that's funny.
[3:23] So now I just say, that's funny.
[3:24] That's funny.
[3:24] If something funny happens, yeah.
[3:25] Okay, great.
[3:26] Yeah.
[3:26] Great.
[3:27] No, I actually, or you guys know this, but I actually spent all of Sunday in emergency in the hospital.
[3:34] It actually feels quite indulgent saying that to someone with kids.
[3:37] I thought I checked myself into emergency all by myself.
[3:40] Oh, that's kind of a parenting hack, isn't it?
[3:43] Yeah.
[3:44] Sympathy and a day of.
[3:45] Yeah, exactly.
[3:46] Exactly.
[3:47] No, it felt like, because Penny said, I think you need to go to, because I've been sick for, it's been six weeks now.
[3:50] It's just got worse and worse and worse.
[3:52] And Sunday I was really bad.
[3:54] And Penny said, I think you should go.
[3:55] go to emergency and I my first thought was oh that sounds lovely bloody da by myself no kids so the night before I had really bad fever really bad that thing where you're just like sweating but you're just shaking uncontrollably my neck was so I could barely move my neck
[4:17] I've been to emergency, when I played cricket, I went there a few times, often with dislocated things, and I just got to know the system reasonably well.
[4:24] I had different- Dislocated things?
[4:25] Fingers, I don't know why I didn't say fingers.
[4:27] Yeah, okay.
[4:28] Because when you say things, it makes me think you're hiding something, and the thing you're hiding makes me think, how can you dislocate that?
[4:38] Not necessarily.
[4:43] Sorry, Hugh.
[4:45] Sorry, everyone.
[4:46] This is absolute chaos in here.
[4:48] Anyway.
[4:50] And apologies to all the Osher Gunsberg mega fans.
[4:53] This is not what you asked for.
[4:54] It's really not.
[4:55] But so I head into hospital and I'm thinking, I understand the system.
[4:58] I know I have different categories of like emergency.
[5:01] So cat one, as we call it, is like that's what needs to be resuscitated basically.
[5:05] All that through to cat four, which is really like,
[5:08] Are you making these up or is that what they call it?
[5:10] No, that's what they call it.
[5:11] Cat wand.
[5:11] All right.
[5:12] Yeah.
[5:13] And I know just because by lots of visits and through cricket.
[5:16] But in my- So, there'd be a person who's an expert.
[5:20] The person who you register with.
[5:21] Triage.
[5:22] But they know all about the categories.
[5:25] They know everything.
[5:26] So, you technically would call them a cat person.
[5:28] You could call them a cat person.
[5:29] Yes.
[5:30] Yeah.
[5:30] So, the cat person, I was thinking just really- That's not funny.
[5:37] That's not funny.
[5:38] I would never say that to you.
[5:39] Of course.
[5:39] I would never say that to you.
[5:40] It was implied.
[5:41] In the fact that I didn't even have to struggle not to laugh.
[5:43] Yeah, it was just a glance at me and then a glance back to the conversation.
[5:47] That's funny, though.
[5:48] Okay, well.
[5:49] So, I was heading to the hospital thinking I need to really, like, this has got to be a quick trip.
[5:54] I can't.
[5:55] Like, three kids at home to Sunday.
[5:57] I've got to be quick here.
[5:58] I don't know why I thought I'd have control of it, but I was like, I'll get in there.
[6:01] I didn't really sell this.
[6:02] This is actually, I'm actually not good here.
[6:04] This is, I need to see someone quick.
[6:05] So I just- Just smash out an emergency.
[6:07] Yeah, smash out an emergency.
[6:08] And I got to the hospital and there's the automatic doors.
[6:12] And it just so happened I arrived at the exact same time as two other parties.
[6:16] And we all had this moment of like, who goes first?
[6:19] And I'm thinking, I'm going to make this quick.
[6:20] So it's probably going to be me.
[6:21] But I looked at them.
[6:23] There was a guy there, probably, I don't know, 20 year old with his mum.
[6:26] It's like who's got the most groceries in their basket.
[6:28] Like, I've only got a banana and a Coke.
[6:31] I should just go first.
[6:32] You've got a whole shopping trolley.
[6:33] Yeah, it was a bit like that.
[6:35] A bit more on the line, I think, for those guys.
[6:40] That's funny.
[6:44] So we had this moment of all trying to assess what was going on, who should go first.
[6:49] One of them was a guy, 20 years old, with his mum, and he literally had glass all through his hair.
[6:54] He had bits of glass sticking out of his skin.
[6:56] He had like a bloodied shoulder.
[6:59] And that looked bad.
[7:00] I was like, oh, I can't go in front of him.
[7:02] The other guy was a very old man.
[7:06] Yeah.
[7:07] How old?
[7:08] How old, like how old was he?
[7:09] Well, this is the thing.
[7:09] Yeah.
[7:10] Have you ever guessed this before?
[7:12] Like when someone says, how old is that person?
[7:13] I've never guessed this before.
[7:15] My guess would be 105.
[7:18] That's, no, I haven't.
[7:20] That's very old.
[7:21] The oldest I've ever guessed someone is in their 90s.
[7:24] 105.
[7:24] It's my record for guessing how old someone is.
[7:28] Well, if we're guessing, I mean, there was that guy that we saw just when we were walking earlier today.
[7:34] We saw a lucky guy.
[7:35] I guessed he was 270.
[7:36] And that's my record.
[7:39] That's my record for guessing.
[7:41] I could not guess higher than that, though.
[7:43] But he looked, in my mind, 270.
[7:44] So, beat that.
[7:47] Well, this guy I guessed was 105, which is the second most highest I've ever heard a guest of someone's age.
[7:51] But so I was like, I can't push in front of a 105-year-old man.
[7:55] But then he was taking so long to get to the emergency thing that I thought I could probably go there and be seen before.
[8:03] him before it takes him to get there, because the person with him was taking forever.
[8:06] If I went behind him, I'd have to walk behind him all the way up to the person at the admin thing.
[8:10] And by that time, someone else could turn up and go, I'm not letting behind those guys.
[8:13] And that would push him.
[8:14] So I was like, no, I'm not doing that.
[8:16] Anyway, so the guy, the 20 year old gets to the front window and I'm behind him.
[8:22] Yeah.
[8:23] So you jumped ahead of 105.
[8:26] Well, we just walked at our natural paces and that's when we arrived there.
[8:30] Wow.
[8:31] However.
[8:31] Wow.
[8:32] No, actually, no.
[8:33] Would be believable if you hadn't spent five minutes setting up that you overtook him.
[8:39] True.
[8:40] So the 20-year-old, the lady says, what happened to you?
[8:42] And he said, I came off my bike.
[8:44] By this time, the old man's caught up and he's like right there.
[8:47] I was like, well, I can't stand in front of him.
[8:49] So I said, you go first.
[8:52] So when it got to me, I just felt so – when she said what's happening, I felt so bad.
[8:58] There's this guy who's come off his bike really badly.
[9:00] He's cutting body.
[9:01] There's a really old man who doesn't even know why he's there, which is really sad.
[9:05] And he was coughing and splattering.
[9:06] He looked really unwell.
[9:08] So when he got to me, I went, oh, I can just go to the doctor.
[9:11] I honestly can just, I'm all right.
[9:13] I've just got the sniffles.
[9:14] I think I'll be all right.
[9:15] Sniffles?
[9:16] What?
[9:17] You've been coughing for weeks.
[9:18] Yeah, I know.
[9:19] You can't laugh.
[9:19] But it's just when I looked at these people, I was like, this is not bad.
[9:21] I am not actually in a bad way here.
[9:24] And so I went and sat down and as I said it, I said, I was like, let's go and have a seat.
[9:29] And I went, am I category four?
[9:31] And she goes, yep.
[9:32] And I went, oh, okay.
[9:34] So I went and sat down and was like, this is going to be a long day.
[9:36] And sure enough, every single person who came in, everyone was going before me.
[9:40] But the thing that was happening alongside all this was I was doing two things last week.
[9:45] I'm right into a lot of reading around the ancient philosophy of the Stoics or Stoicism.
[9:51] Oh, yeah.
[9:51] And I was doing this challenge last week of no complaining.
[9:53] I'm not allowed to complain for the whole week, not a single complaint.
[9:56] And also, I really struggle with Instagram.
[9:59] So I decided I'm going off Instagram for that whole week as well.
[10:01] I wouldn't even think you're a complainer anyway.
[10:03] I don't think that would be a huge shift for you.
[10:04] No, but if you're waiting at a hospital for five hours in a while.
[10:08] And so no Instagram and no complaining.
[10:11] Oh, yeah.
[10:11] Yeah.
[10:12] I was like, gosh, this is a serious challenge now.
[10:14] Okay.
[10:15] TikTok.
[10:15] TikTok.
[10:16] can I whinge and look at TikTok so turning a 12 hour ordeal into 5 minutes of content for us here for the podcast thank you you're not going to do a minute by minute live as it happens it would be extremely interesting but I won't I didn't mean interesting I meant boring it's very subjective I beg to differ
[10:38] Yeah, big difference.
[10:38] Good to clarify.
[10:40] Yeah.
[10:40] So let's cut out six hours.
[10:43] I'm lying in the hospital bed and once I got through, I thought, well, this is it.
[10:47] I'm pretty much here.
[10:48] I'll do some tests.
[10:49] Yeah.
[10:49] Yeah.
[10:50] So I get hooked up to an ECG, which is the heart thing that reads your heart.
[10:55] And I've got blood tests being done.
[10:57] And that was another six and a half hours for me.
[11:02] Once I actually got through six and a half hours of lying there.
[11:04] Jeez, that is a long day.
[11:08] Remember, I'm not complaining.
[11:09] So there's no complaining.
[11:11] I kept saying to the nurses, hey, what's happening next?
[11:15] with this procedure today or what's the plan?
[11:18] I'm just positively asking a question.
[11:21] And at one point they actually lost, they admitted to losing my, I was getting a chest x-ray as well, and they admitted to forgetting that I was getting one done and I had to go, that's fine.
[11:31] No worries.
[11:33] It's good here.
[11:34] Not complaining, but why did you lose that?
[11:37] Exactly.
[11:38] Why did you?
[11:39] Just interested.
[11:40] Not complaining, just interested why you would screw me over so deliberately like that.
[11:45] Not complaining.
[11:45] Not complaining.
[11:46] Question.
[11:48] Yeah.
[11:48] Yeah.
[11:48] So eventually get me through there.
[11:51] And when I came back, a doctor came around to speak to me and he was Scottish and he had such a strong accent.
[11:56] I had been there for 12 hours at this point and he explained what was going on and I just didn't really understand what he was saying.
[12:02] But he was like, you're pretty much ready to go, but this is what we think.
[12:05] Okay.
[12:05] And I didn't hear him.
[12:06] I didn't quite understand what he was saying.
[12:07] And I went, okay, cool.
[12:10] So I'm good to go?
[12:10] And he goes, yeah, yeah.
[12:13] I still don't really know what's wrong with me.
[12:15] I don't know what happened.
[12:16] So he didn't prescribe anything or tell you to do anything?
[12:20] He said, I heard him say something about sinisterness.
[12:24] I presume he said it's nothing sinister.
[12:26] Maybe worth looking into.
[12:30] Maybe worth a second opinion, maybe.
[12:31] I think it was nothing sinister, but it might have been sinister.
[12:34] Who knows?
[12:34] Something sinister.
[12:35] Pretty big difference between sinister and nothing sinister.
[12:42] I was like, this is my thing this year.
[12:43] I'm not going to pretend I know what's going on.
[12:45] But I was just like, I've been here for 12 hours.
[12:46] I want to go home.
[12:48] And because I'm doing intermittent fasting, I hadn't eaten yet that whole day.
[12:51] And it was like 11 o'clock at night.
[12:53] I just want to go home and eat food.
[12:55] Rough day.
[12:55] I was like, I don't even care what you're saying.
[12:57] Just get me home.
[12:57] Jeez.
[12:58] I don't want to be here.
[12:59] So I just pretended I knew what he said.
[13:00] It's something about sinister and come back if something happens.
[13:04] I don't know what.
[13:05] Well, worth waiting 12 hours for.
[13:08] Sinister and come back.
[13:09] Come back.
[13:11] two shocking words.
[13:13] He's probably said, this is extremely sinister.
[13:16] You should definitely come back.
[13:18] I read it as, there's nothing sinister.
[13:19] Don't come back.
[13:20] Yeah.
[13:20] Sinister, come back, death.
[13:23] They're the three words.
[13:24] And get McDonald's on the way home.
[13:26] I think I heard him say that.
[13:26] Tick that off the list.
[13:28] Well, it couldn't have been a better intro to Osher Gunnberg.
[13:32] Yeah, that's all right.
[13:34] Okay, so let's get to it.
[13:36] Hugh, I'm glad you're almost better.
[13:37] Hopefully this cough goes away though because it is legitimately tough for me that you can't laugh, especially when we do this.
[13:43] It's a very strange way to do it.
[13:45] It's very strange.
[13:46] I really rely on you for most of my self-confidence.
[13:50] Okay, let's get into Osher Gunsberg.
[13:53] And just a heads up for everyone.
[13:54] So this interview with Osher, we re-recorded before Hugh's coughing situation.
[13:59] So there is plenty of laughing from Hugh and he was free to, you were free to laugh and have a great time.
[14:04] They were the good old days.
[14:05] The good old days.
[14:06] And similarly, actually with the outro as well, we recorded the outro before, so they'll be laughing.
[14:10] So you can't get us on that.
[14:12] No questions about, hang on, he said he couldn't laugh, then he did laugh.
[14:16] None of that.
[14:17] Here's Osher Gunsberg.
[14:23] Well, this is a good one.
[14:28] They're all good ones.
[14:29] This is a good one.
[14:32] So don't tune out now.
[14:34] But we're here with Osher Gunsberg.
[14:38] And I don't think we've ever met.
[14:40] Maybe we have briefly over the years.
[14:42] But it feels...
[14:45] I feel like safe having you here.
[14:47] There's a feeling of safety.
[14:50] I don't know why that is.
[14:52] And I think it goes back to...
[14:55] probably like Australian Idol days where I felt like you're a safe pair of hands.
[15:02] Don't confuse familiarity with safety.
[15:05] It can be a dangerous thing.
[15:06] Dad?
[15:07] Dad.
[15:10] But I'd like to think that the current state of safety you feel has more to do with 13 years of sobriety than it does anything else.
[15:17] Okay, I'll take that.
[15:19] But then, yes, I think familiarity is like anything.
[15:23] If something feels less strange, we feel less worried about it and perhaps give it more latitude.
[15:30] But, yes, this is the first time we've met.
[15:32] Aside from our parasocial friendship that we have on Instagram where you think you know me or you listen to my podcast and you think we're friends like I do with you.
[15:39] No, we've never actually met.
[15:41] We've never actually met.
[15:41] It's lovely.
[15:42] Well, it's so nice to have you here.
[15:44] I'm very honored to have you on the podcast.
[15:46] Hey, the honor's mine.
[15:47] You guys are amazing at what you do.
[15:49] Come on.
[15:49] Well, it's – yeah, I mean like –
[15:52] We started this podcast like five years ago and really one of the main reasons we started is because we wanted to speak to people who were usually famous or successful in some way, seemed like they had it all.
[16:03] And then as is the case with everybody, there are imperfections that most people don't know about.
[16:09] And you really, the way you talk about all your imperfections and the struggles and things you've been through is really right on point for our podcast.
[16:19] I'm glad I'm on brand for someone.
[16:23] The visual representation I have in my head, and this reference might be lost on younger listeners, but in my head, I'm just picturing like a Rolodex.
[16:32] You remember Rolodexes?
[16:33] Yeah, like an address book.
[16:34] An address book or phone numbers where you would store people's names before you could store it in the phone.
[16:41] That's what I've got for you as far as the things that you could talk about in the next little while.
[16:45] I mean, I'm already trying to work out like...
[16:47] I mean, you've had your own podcast since 2013, I think it is, where you essentially have talked about mental health.
[16:53] Yeah.
[16:54] And it's like two episodes a week for a lot of that?
[16:57] There's now three.
[16:59] Oh, okay.
[17:00] Jeez.
[17:01] Yeah.
[17:01] And you have been so vulnerable in that.
[17:03] You've shared everything with your journey.
[17:05] Yeah.
[17:07] I mean, we could do probably about a thousand.
[17:09] Well, I think it's important.
[17:09] Like there's a few things that ring true and that like you can't be what you can't see.
[17:13] And when I first got sober, I really needed to hear the stories of people that were where I wanted to end up because I couldn't picture how to get from here to there.
[17:25] And it is in those stories and hearing how other people went through things that I was able to go, well, if that person could do it, even though I can't imagine how it works, I'll just do what they tell me and I'll be okay.
[17:34] Okay.
[17:35] And there's the same when I got really sick and I needed to be on the antipsychotics and everything.
[17:39] I needed to hear stories of people who had survived what I was going through.
[17:43] And hearing that they, oh yeah, they just listened to their doctors and they took their drugs and they, you know, did all the work and they were okay.
[17:49] And it might just be okay if I just...
[17:51] It's really important.
[17:52] So I wasn't hearing those kind of stories.
[17:56] I wasn't hearing those kind of conversations.
[17:57] So I really wanted to put those kind of conversations out there because I think we might think – what is it?
[18:04] Misery is comparison.
[18:08] You know, the idea that you compare your insides to other people's outsides is, is ridiculous.
[18:15] And, you know, we might see.
[18:16] I like that a lot.
[18:17] It's true though, right?
[18:18] We might see, I don't know, I'm in Melbourne, so I'm just surrounded by, because I grew up in Brisbane where there really was no AFL until kind of like the late eighties.
[18:27] And then it was on the Gold Coast, which at the time was an hour and a half away.
[18:30] It's like, there's too many goalposts.
[18:31] And what's all these people, why is that on that side of the field, the start of the game?
[18:34] We haven't got to halftime.
[18:35] What's going on?
[18:36] Um, but now I'm kind of immersed in it and I'm staying near the MCG for the comedy festival.
[18:42] I'm here and we were out the other night on Saturday night.
[18:44] The game just got out.
[18:45] It was just heaving with this kind of cultural magnificence.
[18:48] Like, wow, you know, it's a beautiful, but these people who are the players, you know, the pinnacle athletes are the greatest things.
[18:54] And you look at these people, take these amazing marks or, you know, kick a 24 point game.
[18:58] You're like,
[18:59] guys got it made but that's the only thing you see you don't see their parents driving them to practice five days a week when they were 10 you don't see the amount of personal relationships that they've sacrificed or the amount of you know you know the fact that they don't have a boyfriend or girlfriend or the fact that you know their kids don't see them much or you know whatever else you know the injuries they carry for the rest of their lives you only see these moments and you can't that's not the totality no one's just one thing um so i think it's important to talk about that stuff
[19:28] Well, it's probably a good opportunity to kind of go back while we're talking about that because a lot of people were introduced to you in the public world on Australian Idol.
[19:38] You were host of Australian Idol with James Matheson and it was the biggest show in the country, in the world for all the different versions of it.
[19:50] and you were the host of it and things were really, really, really good for you, or at least that's how it seemed, you know, and because this is a show that millions of people watched and you were in the centre of what was kind of the cultural conversation when that was on.
[20:07] Yeah.
[20:08] Meeting, you know, hanging out with all these singers, but then all the guests had come on and I don't know if you were doing Top 30 then as well.
[20:15] Yeah, I was doing radio at the time.
[20:16] Doing radio as well.
[20:17] There was a lot going on and Channel V. There was a lot happening.
[20:19] So if you could... How old were you when... 28.
[20:25] 28?
[20:25] 29.
[20:25] I was 29.
[20:26] That's not so bad.
[20:29] But 28.
[20:30] Okay.
[20:30] So if you could...
[20:31] I know you've probably told this story a lot, but I think it's so relevant.
[20:38] How were you in that moment?
[20:39] Like what were your dreams?
[20:41] What was the reality?
[20:42] All that sort of stuff.
[20:43] Well, I like to think back and I still do it now.
[20:46] Yeah.
[20:47] You know, I look back just a couple of months from that and I could never have explained to myself what was going on.
[20:53] I look back three years or five years in the past and five years before that, I was, you know, at three in the morning on radio in Brisbane, back announcing Celine Dion songs.
[21:05] Her heart will go on.
[21:07] So will the B105 morning crew after six.
[21:10] I was doing, I was, you know, 23 or 22.
[21:14] He never leaves you.
[21:16] And so I just worked really, really hard.
[21:19] I was able, I might not have been as clever as anyone.
[21:21] There's a joke in the show tonight how I dropped out of six weeks.
[21:25] I dropped out of six weeks of a part-time communications degree because it was too hard.
[21:30] I might not have been the smartest person, but I could always outwork anybody.
[21:33] And I just wouldn't have stopped working.
[21:35] And I ended up at Channel V and then after radio.
[21:38] So I'm in the middle of this maelstrom.
[21:40] Can I ask you, before you go, what in that moment when you're at that age and you've got these dreams, what were you thinking about?
[21:47] was the ultimate goal?
[21:49] Like what did you want?
[21:50] I didn't know.
[21:51] I didn't know.
[21:52] I just was trying to get as good as I could at this particular thing and just dedicated myself to being as good as I possibly could at it.
[22:01] Was, sorry, was fame enticing?
[22:04] I had the idea that it kind of does flash back to when I was about eight, I stood on stage.
[22:12] I was going to psychiatrist from the age of five and my parents try to deal with what was going on.
[22:17] I was this compulsively eating, jumpy, nervous kid that's very afraid of everything.
[22:21] And so I was always had this kind of full on anxiety when I was quite little.
[22:26] And then I stood on stage about the age of eight or nine, I think,
[22:30] And I came out on stage and it was like a school play that we would do.
[22:35] Every assembly would have a play where, you know, every class had their turn to put on a sketch and, you know, about, you know, make sure you, I don't know, put your rubbish in the bin at lunchtime or, you know, whatever you're doing, don't masturbate because Jesus is always watching you.
[22:49] I went to that kind of school.
[22:50] All right.
[22:51] That's a good message for a five-year-old again.
[22:55] Fuck ass.
[22:57] So I'm on stage and I'm about to deliver the line.
[22:59] And if you're going to do it, this is the verse.
[23:02] Yeah.
[23:04] It was about picking up rubbish.
[23:04] It wasn't about wanking.
[23:05] And I think I walked out, I heard my key.
[23:08] I walked out and everyone's quiet waiting for me to say the thing.
[23:12] And I said, I think I said something like, don't commit a sin, put it in the bin.
[23:16] Something like that.
[23:17] And people fucking laughed so hard.
[23:19] And that was like the first drug that I ever got.
[23:22] And the first break from that kind of wedge tailed eagle, the fear that was always in my brain.
[23:27] Suddenly there was this moment of like, oh wow, far out, this feels okay.
[23:31] And then I walked off stage and it was bad again.
[23:33] So I kind of chased that coping mechanism for a long time.
[23:35] And I chased being on stage the whole time because I just kind of, if I was on stage then, because what's anxiety?
[23:41] Anxiety is I'm not in control.
[23:42] I don't know what's happening when I'm on stage.
[23:44] I know everything that's happening.
[23:45] I know exactly what to say.
[23:47] I know who's gonna speak next.
[23:48] I do.
[23:49] You know, you're quiet.
[23:49] I'm talking brilliant.
[23:51] You know, I have complete control of the situation.
[23:53] Don't worry.
[23:54] I ended up getting a far better relationship with my work, but it was my coping mechanism for a long time.
[23:59] And so the thing is that I just tried as hard as I could to get to that.
[24:05] But we often leave, we arrive in our careers with the coping mechanisms we've got to deal with stressful situations.
[24:10] And usually they're not very good.
[24:11] Mine was, you know, drinking Queensland style.
[24:15] And so, you know, I had no idea about, you know, exercise really for regulating my mental health.
[24:20] And, you know, I pursued therapy and said no to antidepressants when I first got to Sydney, I didn't want a part of that.
[24:28] at the time.
[24:29] And so my coping mechanisms quite quickly began to not be able to handle what the kind of stresses I was going through.
[24:36] And- The coping mechanisms of being on stage, being on television.
[24:39] I don't know, the coping mechanisms of drinking.
[24:40] Of drinking, yeah.
[24:41] Yeah, alcohol made it better until it didn't.
[24:43] It didn't, yeah.
[24:45] And like, but it's hard to describe to people who are listening to this on a phone or watching this on a screen somewhere on a bus, right?
[24:51] But there was a time when none of that existed and the internet made a noise when you dial it up and there was only four or five channels.
[24:57] like one in four adult Australians watched the finale of that first show.
[25:00] Yeah.
[25:01] And for that whole like six, nine months, I had very blonde hair at the time.
[25:05] I have it again.
[25:07] And people would literally run up to me in the street, grab my hair and pull it, go, oh, fuck, I thought it was a wig.
[25:13] It's not a wig.
[25:14] What?
[25:14] Yeah And that would happen to me It was very strange Very, very strange And so I would drink To put a beer blanket around me From that kind of stuff And people would pull and push And grab me You suddenly belonged to everyone else Yeah, it was weird And I ended up not leaving the house much And it wasn't very good
[25:31] Can I ask about drinking?
[25:33] What does it actually look like from day to day?
[25:35] Do you start early in the morning or is it like... Well, I got sober in 2010 and it got to the point where it was no longer a choice.
[25:45] It was no longer something I could choose to not do.
[25:50] And it was abundantly clear to me that no matter what I tried to do, I tried to stop many times before.
[25:54] I knew that I had a problem.
[25:57] But I couldn't not do it.
[25:58] And it might be difficult for people to think about, but they're thinking about that with their brain.
[26:04] No matter what I tried, no matter how many different ways I tried to behave, no matter what would happen at some point, I would have a drink.
[26:12] And then by the end of the night, it would be guaranteed that...
[26:16] Someone would be upset at me, someone would be broken and I couldn't remember why.
[26:20] And I would, I'd kind of, I kind of explained to it like, um, there's people who you've got kids, there's people who are watching who are aware of this sort of thing.
[26:30] Like if a kid's got an anaphylactic peanut, peanut allergy, like if you're at a birthday party or whatever, you're like, I just got a little bit of peanut.
[26:36] Like, no, nobody is eating anything today because, you know, little Jane's here and we don't want her to die.
[26:42] Okay.
[26:45] So similarly, if I have the smallest amount of alcohol, that amount of alcohol, this is a trace element, it sets off an allergic reaction in me, which changes how much I think is a good idea to keep drinking.
[26:56] And worse, it changes what I think is a good idea at all, like what's right and wrong even.
[27:00] And I've lost complete control of that.
[27:03] And my, you know, systems got quite dysregulated.
[27:06] And I just realized I wasn't, it was very clear where I was going to end up.
[27:10] And I had seen someone who was living life and having been life of the party.
[27:14] And I was like, how did you do that?
[27:17] And so when I realized I was like in a lot of trouble, I called up this person.
[27:20] I said, can you help me out?
[27:22] Can you tell me to one of those meetings you go to?
[27:24] And they said, yes, I'll take you.
[27:26] And that was that.
[27:27] And just someone who had been where you were and had... Yeah.
[27:32] And so you could see a version of something that you could...
[27:34] I've never seen sobriety look like that.
[27:36] Yeah.
[27:36] Look good.
[27:37] Oh, man.
[27:37] Good.
[27:38] This guy, he is...
[27:39] I won't, you know, break his anonymity, but he's a...
[27:43] He's stunning.
[27:44] Like he's got four arms like a sailor, you know, with tattoos.
[27:47] And he looks like – don't Google this.
[27:49] He looks like Tom of Finland, like a Tom of Finland character come to life.
[27:52] He was a fashion photographer.
[27:54] Amazing at what he did.
[27:55] Life of the party.
[27:56] Gay as Christmas.
[27:57] Unbelievable.
[27:58] It's like, whoa.
[27:59] I didn't know, like the kind of girl who only owns shirts with buttons that start here.
[28:03] Because his chest is like this.
[28:05] He's like, wow, you can do that and be sober and get the cover of that and that and that magazine?
[28:11] Oh, I thought you just had to be sad and drinking polystyrene cup coffee under a church.
[28:15] Sometimes it's that.
[28:16] Yeah.
[28:17] But it can also be this thing.
[28:18] So, oh, I wouldn't mind a bit of that.
[28:20] And so, yeah, that person took me some of my first engagements with a fellowship of people that count days and-
[28:27] Take steps There's more than 11 There's less than 13 I'm sort of interested in that thing You said before And the way you said it about When you got on stage When you asked And you told that joke And you got the reaction of the crowd Yeah, yeah I'm always...
[28:42] I find it really interesting, and this is probably a bigger question, but it reared its head for me that in people who happen to be good at something that is celebrated by the public or by, in that case, your peers at primary school.
[28:57] Is the thing that made you feel good, you being good at it on stage or the reaction of the crowd?
[29:03] Yeah.
[29:05] I think it was a bit of the latter at that point.
[29:10] Yeah.
[29:11] Because I had this, you know, kind of idea that, well, everything would be awesome just once I get on TV, you know, to come back to your question.
[29:17] It was like, as long as I'm on TV, everything will be fine.
[29:20] It wasn't.
[29:20] Yeah.
[29:21] It was like, I tried really hard and I just got on bigger and bigger and bigger shows, but it didn't make anything better.
[29:27] it was only when I started to reassess my relationship to that work.
[29:30] And now I find that just the joy of joy is in being as great as I can at what it is that I do.
[29:37] And if I am the best that I can possibly be on the day, then I am making everyone else's job great.
[29:45] It's like when you watch Tony Hawk land a perfect kickflip.
[29:48] You're like...
[29:49] It's amazing.
[29:50] It's beautiful.
[29:51] It's incredible.
[29:52] He did that.
[29:53] He failed 10,000 times before he got it right.
[29:54] Yeah.
[29:55] He's a tiny hawk.
[29:56] He's probably only nine days.
[29:59] So what you just said there about if you're really, really good at what you do, then it makes other people –
[30:05] Yeah, I started approaching work differently.
[30:09] How can I make everyone else on – because I work in a communal environment.
[30:12] I work in a – there's sometimes 110 people on the show that I work on.
[30:18] And I just try to do my very best to make everyone else have the easiest day possible.
[30:23] And I do that by being as prepared as I possibly can be, as professional as I possibly can be on time, which I'm not great at, but I try.
[30:35] um a lot easier and you get reward from that if you can see the amazingly so more so than like winning a logi i've never won one so who knows yeah yeah i got given one once but i was so drunk and off my tits on percocet i don't remember whole it was the one for australian idol oh yeah yeah yeah what's percocet sorry i said i broke in my hand snowboarding and um
[30:57] Yeah, painkiller drugs were a part of my last couple of years of drinking.
[31:01] Okay.
[31:02] Sorry to slow it down a bit.
[31:03] It's all right.
[31:04] Because I'm just fascinated by the intricacies of what you're saying here.
[31:08] So did you learn, is this something you've learned, this idea of just doing the job to make everyone else's and the sort of team thing?
[31:17] Absolutely.
[31:17] Or is that an attitude you've had from the beginning?
[31:19] No, no, no, no, no.
[31:19] And it kind of comes with getting sober.
[31:22] It comes with just be a worker among workers.
[31:24] Just try to be, do your bit as well as you possibly can and leave it for others to do their part as well as they possibly can.
[31:31] And understand that if that person might not be doing the thing, if it's your job to make sure they do it, then that's your job to help them do it better.
[31:37] But if it's not your job, that's not your job.
[31:39] Yeah, yeah.
[31:39] And someone else's job to do that and not to try to put myself in the way of everything.
[31:44] Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[31:45] And try to control for you.
[31:46] And yeah, so I try very hard to...
[31:49] It's tricky now because I'm doing this comedy show where I have a cast of – there's about seven people who are doing the show in this run in Melbourne.
[31:55] So it's five on stage at a time and there's like a whole bunch of people involved.
[31:58] And it's actually kind of wonderful to go, okay, just, you know, you take it from here.
[32:06] And this is – you're great at what you do.
[32:08] And what you do with it might not be what I thought you were going to do with it, but –
[32:11] I can't do what you do.
[32:13] Amazing.
[32:14] And it's great.
[32:16] Sometimes it takes a bit of effort to not kind of want to control that because there's a lot at stake.
[32:22] But I'm learning how to do it, doing this show.
[32:25] I'm being pushed and challenged to do that.
[32:27] And I'm grateful for it.
[32:28] Yeah, I mean, that sounds like it'd be incredibly, because I think something in what you're saying before, and maybe I might be bringing in something I've heard you say in interviews elsewhere, being on stage and being in control is one of the things that makes you able to control the anxiety.
[32:42] It was, yes.
[32:42] It was, and so what a place to have come.
[32:45] So now you feel excited about relinquishing.
[32:48] Relinquishing that, yes, yes, yeah.
[32:50] But I also get a great amount of joy in getting it.
[32:52] really, really right.
[32:53] Yeah.
[32:54] Like really right.
[32:55] Like it's the, if you play golf, it's the perfect swing.
[32:57] Yeah.
[32:58] You know, or the perfect bottom turn of a surfer.
[33:01] Yeah.
[33:02] You know, or the perfect, you know, rail grind if you're in a half pipe, you know, it's just...
[33:06] It's like execution.
[33:07] It's, you remember it.
[33:09] So on that, what...
[33:11] role does like validation and praise like externally play in all that so oh look i'm still a selfish narcissist right so it does help because it's like is it that story you told about when you're eight and you first got that yeah that sort of response from a joke you said um versus what you're talking about now which is less that personal pleasure you get from absolutely nailing the execution um
[33:35] um how important is it for someone to see you nail that execution if they're paying me to do it very if they're not you know there's economic factors in the roles that i choose to pursue yeah one of my favorite movie quotes it used to be we're going to need a bigger boat from jaws but now it's uh hyman roth to michael colione and godfather part two this is the business we have chosen
[33:58] I chose this ridiculous job that goes for 10 weeks at a time.
[34:03] Yeah.
[34:04] You know, and you literally don't know if you're going to come back next season.
[34:07] This is a Bachelor you're talking about.
[34:08] Or any show, any show.
[34:09] Yeah.
[34:10] It's seasonal.
[34:10] I chose the life of a freelancer.
[34:11] My wife and I both did.
[34:12] So, yeah, there's economic factors.
[34:15] You want to be sure that enough people watched it so that they go –
[34:19] You know, I hope, you know, people say there's a good idea to do it again.
[34:22] But I ultimately, I don't work in promos.
[34:25] I don't work in marketing.
[34:25] I don't do billboards.
[34:27] I do my bit.
[34:29] Yeah.
[34:29] And then I have to kind of let it go.
[34:31] And that's all you can do.
[34:32] I mean, I've, man, I've, I've been on shows that have been canceled.
[34:35] I've been, you know, been promised shows that never even filmed.
[34:39] You can't.
[34:40] You know, you can only be as good as you can on the day and then let it go.
[34:45] And that's it.
[34:46] And you are able to do that.
[34:47] Yeah, much more these days.
[34:49] Yeah, yeah.
[34:49] Which is great.
[34:50] But what about when Australian Idol was, because there was a time where it was the biggest thing.
[34:55] Yes.
[34:56] Then there was a time where it was dwindling.
[34:57] Yeah.
[34:58] And less and less people were watching it.
[35:00] Less and less people were watching television in general.
[35:03] It's the same with every show though.
[35:04] Yeah, of course, of course.
[35:05] But like how did you take that when the show was getting less popular?
[35:10] By just ignoring that.
[35:12] Oh, yeah.
[35:12] It didn't really play on your mind.
[35:14] I think I deliberately ignored it.
[35:15] Yeah.
[35:16] Yeah.
[35:17] And I did not plan ahead.
[35:18] I didn't at all.
[35:19] And then ultimately when it all ended, I had nothing to go to.
[35:22] And that was terrible, which is now why I think I work on so many things all at once.
[35:28] Yeah.
[35:28] Like after this, I'm going to record another podcast and I get back on my bicycle and I'm going to ride to the show and do the show.
[35:34] And then later tonight, I'm going to edit some stuff and then, you know, go to bed at midnight and then get up tomorrow and write tomorrow a show.
[35:39] Yes.
[35:39] Never alone one thing.
[35:41] No.
[35:41] Yeah.
[35:42] Work, work.
[35:42] I mean, I also enjoy the work and I try to choose projects that I will grow from, I think as well.
[35:49] Because in my game, there's really no ascension in like you're on camera.
[35:56] that's that you're there yeah like where's the oh that's interesting where's the ceo role you know where's the yeah you know like all they started as the you know the guy that was running water onto the field in the 70s and now they're the chairman of the club you know that ascension doesn't exist i think that's a pretty amazing thing amazing observation well i think some people would argue not against you but just saying well if your show isn't that big you want to get in a bigger show
[36:21] But, and that's ascending, but you are on the biggest shows.
[36:25] So maybe that's- Like, where do you go?
[36:27] And what do you do?
[36:27] You know, so for me, in my game, the way to scale is to, you create formats and you basically try to make shows that you're not on.
[36:34] So then they make, you know, Finland's next top water drinker or whatever.
[36:38] And I'm making money at night while I sleep.
[36:41] And somewhere in Finland's talking about my reality show.
[36:44] You mentioned before painkillers with alcohol and then around the time of Australian Idol, sort of the popularity descending a little bit.
[36:52] Do you look back over the last 20 years and see a rock bottom at any point?
[36:55] Is there a point where you're like, this is rock bottom for me?
[36:58] Oh, like a really terribly placed cruise ship in the Caribbean.
[37:02] I dragged anchor along the bottom for quite a while, just destroying a lot of stuff.
[37:08] If you ever watch that video, it's horrible.
[37:10] Hang on, is this an analogy?
[37:11] I don't know.
[37:12] I like scuba diving and there's a horrific video of an anchor chain, like a cruise ship anchor chain, which is not small, just basically dragging across a reef that some people- Oh, that's an analogy.
[37:23] I thought you were on a cruise ship.
[37:24] No, no, no.
[37:25] I drag.
[37:26] Some people, they bounce on the bottom or they drag along the bottom.
[37:29] I dragged.
[37:30] So I dragged along the bottom for quite a while.
[37:33] And what were you damaging?
[37:34] Yeah.
[37:35] everything around me, my career, the people they loved and cared about me, my family, everything, everything.
[37:40] Because it's a, you know, alcoholism is a selfish disease and ultimately nothing matters except, you know, drinking.
[37:47] Yeah.
[37:48] You can't not do it.
[37:49] That's the thing.
[37:49] It's like, it's very difficult.
[37:50] It's like if I said, okay, put your hands in your pockets.
[37:55] And I stood you at the top of a set of stairs.
[37:57] And I said, now I really want you to try your very best.
[38:00] Don't take your hands out of your pockets.
[38:02] And then I shoved you in the back.
[38:05] your hands are going to come out of your pockets.
[38:06] You need to stop yourself falling.
[38:07] Like you can't not do it.
[38:09] You have to.
[38:09] It's an instinct.
[38:10] It's your, yeah.
[38:11] It stops being a conscious thing.
[38:14] It's really strange.
[38:15] And that's the thing that a lot of people don't quite understand about addiction when it comes to any addiction, gambling addiction, for example.
[38:20] Like, what does your store, man?
[38:21] You don't get it.
[38:22] Like,
[38:24] The dopamine system is so dysregulated they can't not choose those.
[38:27] It's not even a choice anymore.
[38:29] And it's really hard.
[38:30] It's really addiction.
[38:31] So to have this kind of idea that people who are addicted are weak or something, it's like it's beyond them.
[38:41] You're powerless over it.
[38:42] And unfortunately, it takes you having to understand, oh, yeah.
[38:47] I'm here because I put myself here.
[38:49] That's the hardest part.
[38:50] It's the hardest part, man.
[38:52] It's the hardest part when other people are struggling and, um, you know, they, their family were like, oh, I'll put them in a rehab or something like that.
[39:02] But they, you know, the person only goes because they're being told to go and it doesn't, it doesn't stick.
[39:08] It only sticks when they realize, oh, it's me.
[39:12] And it sucks waiting for that bit.
[39:14] It really sucks.
[39:15] I imagine.
[39:15] Yeah.
[39:16] This is only my experience.
[39:18] It might be a different number of people's experiences.
[39:19] How long do you think in your case that happened for you?
[39:23] Were there people in your life who were trying to get you?
[39:26] I distinctly remember I had this kind of flash.
[39:29] A lot of people listening might not remember, but back in the day, we used to look at photos that were actually printed out.
[39:36] And if you ever moved house, you know, you would find, you know, a box of dishes and like you'd be unpacking the dishes.
[39:41] And somehow there's a photo that had fallen in there and you go, huh?
[39:44] Like it's completely out of context thing amongst all your cups and mismatched sources in a share house.
[39:48] You'd be like, oh yeah.
[39:49] So I had this flash of a picture of my girlfriend at the time I was 22 and I had really long hair.
[39:55] I was playing in a funk metal band.
[39:57] I had really long hair and she was brushing the vomit out of my cheek as I lay in her lap going, you might want to think about why you keep doing this to yourself.
[40:04] I don't know, I don't have a problem.
[40:05] Like, well, it took 14 more years before I had to think about that.
[40:10] 14 more years, yeah.
[40:12] There's a part of your story in your career which was, it was sort of like a big change for you, which is when you changed your name to Osher from Andrew.
[40:23] And, and I remember, I remember when that happened and I remember like, it was like a big for maybe for a day or two, but it was a big news story, you know?
[40:31] And, and to be, to be like completely honest, I remember, and I feel like I need to kind of apologize for it now.
[40:38] But I remember when I heard that, I remember like rolling my eyes.
[40:43] Fair enough.
[40:43] And I remember thinking, oh God, I was like, I was like, and I was younger.
[40:48] Yeah.
[40:49] And I feel really bad about that because now I understand.
[40:54] I mean, I probably don't fully understand, but I fully accept why you would want to do that.
[40:59] It was a way to separate my drinking me from a different me.
[41:04] Wow.
[41:04] And it was really important.
[41:06] But, you know, people change their names all the time and we don't give a fuck.
[41:11] I went in grade three.
[41:13] In grade two, Miss Carrington went on summer holidays.
[41:17] We all went on summer holidays.
[41:18] And Mrs. Smith showed up for grade three.
[41:20] Same lady.
[41:22] But now she's Mrs. Smith.
[41:23] She wears different clothes.
[41:24] She talks to us differently.
[41:26] She has a different way of being.
[41:27] It's like, oh, same human being she was 10 weeks before.
[41:31] Yeah.
[41:31] She got married or?
[41:32] Yeah, she got married.
[41:33] Oh, right.
[41:33] Okay.
[41:33] Yeah.
[41:33] Yeah.
[41:34] She got married.
[41:34] Okay.
[41:35] There's, you know, you changed your name and I changed my name.
[41:38] I know this for a fact.
[41:39] There's like, there's people in the world that only call you by this name, but your life completely changed when someone started calling you dad.
[41:46] Right.
[41:47] I was like, I have not changed my name.
[41:49] Someone's, he's researching.
[41:51] He's confident on it there.
[41:53] Yeah.
[41:53] He's compelling.
[41:54] Maybe I have.
[41:54] Like really very, very important people in your life have used a different name for you.
[42:00] And that changes who you are.
[42:01] Because my mum, and she might do this for you as well, my mum now calls me dad and she calls my dad pa. Yeah.
[42:08] In front of the kids.
[42:09] Yeah.
[42:09] Yeah.
[42:10] But it just, I call Penny mummy now.
[42:13] My wife, I call her mum.
[42:14] Which would be weird, I call her mum.
[42:15] Yeah, yeah.
[42:16] Well, yeah, people change their names all the time.
[42:18] You've got a snort laugh.
[42:19] That's good.
[42:20] I know.
[42:20] Yeah, people change their names all the time.
[42:22] But we don't think about it.
[42:24] But it was for me.
[42:25] It wasn't for anybody else.
[42:27] I just wanted to say it out loud because I feel like it was a thing that you would have no doubt been judged harshly for.
[42:34] I didn't care.
[42:35] And I know, and I'm sure you genuinely didn't care.
[42:37] No, I don't give a shit.
[42:38] Okay.
[42:39] I guess it was what you were dealing with and what it was saying.
[42:41] Yeah, it was actually the head of the production company at the time.
[42:48] Because it had been, I was living in America for a while before this happened.
[42:51] So it had been for years, it did like that.
[42:53] But it was the first time publicly that I've been doing it in Australia.
[42:56] And the head of the production company came and sat me down.
[42:59] Like on the first day of shooting, he's like, come and have a chat.
[43:01] He's like, what are you doing out here?
[43:02] Like the location was miles away from their office.
[43:04] They sat me down by myself and was like, no,
[43:06] You really, really want to come on, man.
[43:07] There's not people who know you.
[43:10] You really can't do this to us.
[43:11] We need to launch.
[43:11] We need to have a big launch.
[43:12] You're going to have to do this.
[43:14] They didn't want you to change the option?
[43:16] Amazing.
[43:17] I was like, no, man.
[43:18] I'm not going.
[43:20] So how old are you when you change your name?
[43:21] Oh, God.
[43:23] Off, like privately, I started flirting with her in 2009 and then proper about 20, on my birthday in 2012.
[43:32] So how old were you then?
[43:34] 2012, I was 30, I can't remember now.
[43:38] I can't remember.
[43:39] You were youngish.
[43:40] 38?
[43:40] I don't know.
[43:41] Yeah.
[43:42] 38?
[43:42] I just can't believe at that age you would be able to go, that's such a genius thing to do.
[43:48] It is.
[43:49] Like to go, I can't be this person anymore.
[43:53] So everything's changing, including my name.
[43:54] Both my parents changed their names.
[43:55] My mother's name, she's passed away now, but my mother was Bruta Magdalena.
[43:59] It was a very Lithuanian name, but Australians couldn't understand that.
[44:02] So Ruth.
[44:03] Yeah.
[44:04] My dad is Misho.
[44:05] It's a Czech name, but Michael.
[44:07] They both changed their names and who they became because of that as immigrants when they, you know, you change your angle, size, your name, you become a different person, you're in a different country.
[44:15] Michael and Ruth.
[44:15] Yeah, yeah.
[44:16] I just think it was a very, and without wanting to over-dramatise it, but I think it is, like, in hindsight, a very inspiring thing to do because it worked for you.
[44:25] So it's like, who cares?
[44:27] Who cares?
[44:28] Obviously, people did.
[44:29] You knew people would to a certain degree.
[44:31] Yeah.
[44:31] But you still did it.
[44:32] I think that's pretty great.
[44:33] Thanks, man.
[44:34] It was an aggressive rebrand.
[44:37] This is a difficult one for me, this whole episode in working out what we talk about because most guests have come over and go, we could talk about that and that and maybe we could talk about that.
[44:45] With you, it's like, it was endless.
[44:47] I'm so interested.
[44:47] Sorry I don't stay in my lane here.
[44:49] I'm sorry.
[44:50] No, but you have many lanes.
[44:51] I swim this way across the pool.
[44:53] Yeah.
[44:54] Great.
[44:55] Why not?
[44:56] I was pitching, I was thinking of athletics tracks, and there's a track in Western Australia that's like the straights got like 24 lanes.
[45:01] That's what I was pitching.
[45:03] Really?
[45:03] You're like the university.
[45:05] You'd have sports day over by a little lunch.
[45:06] That'd be awesome.
[45:08] I have thought that.
[45:09] All the fucking heats that go into it.
[45:10] No, forever?
[45:11] Everyone pick a lane, we're done.
[45:12] You're the best.
[45:13] You can run an entire class at once.
[45:16] So you have many fascinating, wonderful lanes, just like University of Western Australia Athletics Track.
[45:21] But something you said to me really piqued my interest and that I haven't heard this discussed before, but you said to me, and I hope I don't get this wrong, you said you want to talk about the relationship and how it can be at times hard to stay married.
[45:34] Oh, yeah, man.
[45:35] Like marriage is a marathon, not a sprint.
[45:38] Yeah.
[45:39] And anyone thinks that it's over once you put that bit of metal around your ring.
[45:42] I don't know.
[45:43] You're just tying up your laces, bro.
[45:45] Well, I mean, people make sort of throwaway jokes about, throwaway lines about, oh, God, the bloody missus, it's so hard.
[45:50] Ball and chain gags still work.
[45:52] It's nuts.
[45:54] And dumb husband gags still work.
[45:55] Yeah.
[45:57] It's not okay, but they do.
[45:59] And people might say, oh, my husband's this and that.
[46:01] But you...
[46:03] actually are happy to say like, yeah, it's really hard to stay married.
[46:06] Sometimes it is.
[46:06] Yeah.
[46:07] Sometimes it is.
[46:07] And anybody who's married listening to me right now will go, because it is, you know, it is, you are who you are when you meet.
[46:15] And my big brother used to always tell me that the, you know, the, you have many different relationships over the course of the time you are together.
[46:23] You know, you, you know, I met my wife and we were kind of like secretly dating at work.
[46:29] She was my makeup artist.
[46:30] Yeah.
[46:30] All right.
[46:32] And that old chestnut.
[46:33] Well, I don't, yes.
[46:39] I was 40 at the time, so it wasn't that old, but okay.
[46:42] Oh no.
[46:44] So we were secret, and there was that kind of, that came with a bit of, you know, skullduggery and it was kind of, and then there was the, okay, I was moving back to America and like, well, what's this gonna be?
[46:53] Cause I'm not, I've got a kid and I'm not gonna fuck around with this.
[46:56] And then, so it became something different and then,
[46:58] you know, when I, as in she had a kid.
[47:00] Yeah.
[47:00] Yeah.
[47:00] Yeah.
[47:01] Yeah.
[47:01] Uh, Georgia and my stepdaughter and she's like, I'm not going to mess around cause you know, I'm not going to bring someone into her life.
[47:07] That's not serious.
[47:08] It's like, okay, then, then it was different relationship because it was no longer just kind of this kind of thing that happened in Sydney.
[47:13] It's like now it's a thing that goes across borders.
[47:15] And then, um,
[47:16] You know, it changed again when I came back for another show and I ended up staying and living with them for about two or three months.
[47:21] And that's completely different.
[47:23] And it changed again when we moved in together.
[47:25] And it changed again when she went to high school.
[47:28] It changed again as I changed beds and I started to get a lot better than I was when I first met them.
[47:33] And then it changed again when Wolfman turned along.
[47:35] So this is when your daughter went to high school?
[47:37] Was it your...
[47:37] Uh, yeah, yeah.
[47:38] Changed again.
[47:38] Like then she, then G becomes a teenager.
[47:40] She was 10 when I met her.
[47:41] And then, you know, as kids become teenagers, you remember when you were teenagers, you remember your parents' faces, teenagers, just teenage stuff.
[47:48] Yeah.
[47:49] And I did, you know, she was nothing compared to me.
[47:53] You know, not saying that was a challenge, Jake.
[47:55] But, you know, it comes with its challenges as kids change and grow and, you know, and then you move house and then, you know.
[48:03] So you have to have these kind of constantly different relationships the whole way through.
[48:07] It's not the same relationships.
[48:08] And what might have applied at this part of it doesn't apply nine years down the track.
[48:12] Yeah.
[48:13] Do you think that's what causes problems for a lot of people is that they're hanging on to maybe the first- It's always going to be that summer in Bali when you're met.
[48:21] Right, yeah.
[48:21] It's always going to be that first holiday that you had on Hamilton Island when it was just pants ahoy for a week.
[48:26] And why can't it be like that?
[48:28] Because you were 24.
[48:28] Yeah.
[48:30] You know?
[48:30] And you could sleep till 11 in the morning.
[48:32] Yeah.
[48:33] That's why.
[48:34] Yeah.
[48:34] It's not like, guys, is it the first day of daylight saving?
[48:37] How do I know?
[48:38] Because it's 5 a.m. and I've got a kid peeling my eyes up and going, can I watch this?
[48:42] Like, oh, bro.
[48:45] You know, like you can't expect the same rules to apply and it takes work to readjust in the same way that, you know, as kids require you constantly recalibrating how you go about managing things.
[49:00] you know, them as they grow and they start to push into the world, you have to recalibrate.
[49:05] And that can be tough because, you know, I like to do things the way I like to do them and that's it.
[49:12] But, you know, there's an old line.
[49:14] You can be a writer, you can be married.
[49:16] What do you want?
[49:17] And ultimately, when I think about... Well, when I think about it, it's often...
[49:22] It's really... A lot of the times, it's not worth that much, but it's just catching myself in those moments of reaction.
[49:29] That's the hard part.
[49:30] Have you found you've had to force yourself into areas that you're not comfortable with in... Because the relationship required it or because... Oh, yeah.
[49:39] Absolutely.
[49:40] Yeah.
[49:40] And if you're not, then you might be...
[49:45] I don't know.
[49:46] It's like, crikey, it's like getting front row tickets to the AFL Grand Final and staring at your phone the whole time.
[49:53] Like you're missing out.
[49:54] You're missing on the opportunity to experience this thing that will fundamentally change you as a person.
[50:00] If you keep your head in the sand.
[50:01] If you pretend, if you just want to keep doing the same thing.
[50:03] Yeah.
[50:04] It's the same with like being a parent, you know.
[50:06] If you don't, if you're not challenged and you're not adjusting yourself as you, as the kids grow, you are missing out on the whole point as far as I'm concerned.
[50:13] The whole point of being a parent for me is to, like your job is to make decisions.
[50:19] Sure, that kid becomes an excellent human that is a great contribution to society.
[50:23] Because to do that, the worst thing about parenting, it's not the no sleep.
[50:29] It's not the dad, dad, dad, can I watch this?
[50:32] It's that they don't do what you tell them, but they do everything you show them.
[50:36] You are forced into quitting.
[50:38] You call your own shit.
[50:39] You have to go, oh.
[50:42] Okay.
[50:42] And you have to, otherwise the pattern just repeats and you see your kid say something that your father said and you're like, whoa, you know, that was like 70 years apart and this doesn't belong here.
[50:54] But wow, that came from me to them.
[50:56] And what's your role in putting that shit into the world?
[51:01] so it's you know but it's it's hard sometimes you know it is and that's okay though it's okay this idea that everything's always awesome it's not it's hard sometimes but it's okay because the awesome parts are great but it does take work and anyone that thinks it doesn't is probably not married
[51:19] So, I often with our kids, when things are really difficult and they're really pushing us, I have this thing of like, God, if you weren't my kid, I would not be hanging around here today because you're just too hard.
[51:35] What is it like to be a step-parent for you?
[51:38] I...
[51:42] I'm kind of interested in that.
[51:46] It's the kind of parenting we don't really talk about.
[51:48] Yeah.
[51:49] You know, there's this idea of the father, you know, who's, you know, rainbow towel baby starts there and then away we go, you know, and then there's the kind of rig shots when they've still got their pre-dad bod at the beach, you know.
[52:01] Just before it disappears.
[52:02] Yes, forever.
[52:03] The final throw.
[52:04] Yeah, yeah.
[52:04] And then, you know, there's this idea of what, you know,
[52:07] would be.
[52:09] And then there's the stepfather and stepmother who will step in and be there for that person, you know.
[52:19] And sometimes, depending on what time you arrive, it can be amazing.
[52:23] It can be hard.
[52:25] It can be hard and amazing within minutes of each other.
[52:29] And I think, you know, I've...
[52:33] Gotta say, Audrey and Gee have just been incredible, incredible in giving me the latitude and the space to not get it right and to try to learn to do it better.
[52:44] Because I showed up when I moved back in with them after I'd been here and I kind of came back and I was here for like three months.
[52:52] And suddenly I've got this kid in my life who's just turned 11 and I've got about a good month of parenting experience.
[53:03] So I've got no idea that when they say no, it's not what an adult is when they say no to you.
[53:13] It's just them pushing a boundary, which I now know.
[53:19] And I didn't get it right.
[53:20] I didn't get it right.
[53:21] And Audrey found a psychologist that was actually attached to the children's hospital.
[53:29] And we were going to see her every week.
[53:32] And I'd just get a whole bunch of skills about how to...
[53:37] manage this transition when we all moved in together.
[53:41] And it was extraordinary.
[53:44] And, you know, I still try to do, it's like anything, you know, you're not going to get it right all the time.
[53:49] And I try really hard to get it as right as I can, but it's incredible because she was my girlfriend's kid.
[53:56] And if you're going to date women when you're in your 40s, you're going to be dating people with children.
[54:01] She was just my girlfriend's kid.
[54:02] And then one day, it wasn't even that long, I think it was like about six weeks or eight weeks into it.
[54:08] I woke up one day, I was like, I would push you out of the way of an oncoming bus, even if it meant I would die just to save you.
[54:13] Wow.
[54:16] This guy, selfish guy said that.
[54:18] And it just, everything changed.
[54:21] Everything changed.
[54:22] It just now became about making sure that this kid had a roof over her head and a fridge full of food and could take advantage of every opportunity she wished to pursue.
[54:33] as a selfish guy.
[54:34] Oh, yeah, yeah.
[54:34] Come on, man.
[54:35] Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[54:36] As part of getting sober, like a lot of it is like holding a really big, someone who basically holds a big giraffe and whatever you try to look, like keep looking, keep looking.
[54:43] Yeah, you have to do a fair bit of work around that and understand that part of you, you know.
[54:46] And then the shift that you just talked about, is that as dramatic as becoming a selfless guy?
[54:51] Oh, yeah.
[54:53] I don't think I'm selfless by any way at all.
[54:55] I am a selfish person.
[54:57] I am just aware of it.
[54:58] Right.
[54:59] And I try to catch myself before I act upon that.
[55:02] Sometimes I do.
[55:02] Sometimes I don't.
[55:04] But progress, not perfection, man.
[55:06] I try.
[55:07] I try and I get it right all the time, right?
[55:09] And, yeah, the thing with Jay is that I –
[55:15] That was amazing to me because that kind of triggered the, oh my God, she just does the things that I show her.
[55:21] So if I want her to speak to me in a certain way, I have to be sure that whenever she speaks to me, whenever she sees me speaking to people, I am, oh God, I have to change.
[55:29] Okay.
[55:30] And then that realizing that and coming into that.
[55:34] And that was wonderful, absolutely wonderful.
[55:37] And Audrey and I would have, you know, we were absolutely more than happy to go through life with just the three of us.
[55:44] And at one point we pulled the goalie and we got really lucky and then Wolfie showed up, which is amazing.
[55:54] But I would have had that experience as a father, I would have had that experience as a man, regardless whether Wolfie showed up or not.
[56:00] Never heard the phrase pulled the goalie.
[56:02] No?
[56:02] I love that.
[56:03] It's a ice hockey thing or a soccer thing.
[56:05] Right.
[56:05] Like when you've got like some 40 seconds on the clock, you can do with the other player further down past the halfway line.
[56:12] Yeah.
[56:13] So you pull the goalie.
[56:15] Love it.
[56:16] Just love it.
[56:18] I'd love to talk about Wolfie, but before we do, this may seem self-evident and you sort of said it before, but I'd love to hear your thoughts on this.
[56:26] Yeah.
[56:27] You talk quite eloquently and I think you're 100% right about the work that's involved in both parenting and in a relationship with things changing.
[56:36] And this is probably self-evident, but why?
[56:39] Like not why is there work, but why is the work worth it?
[56:43] Nothing stays great if you expect it to be fine by itself, you know?
[56:48] Everything requires refinement and revisiting.
[56:51] It's like, just because we've always been doing it that way, does that mean we should still do it that way?
[56:55] Let's just double check because everything, all the other circumstances here have changed.
[56:58] So yes, that might've been working, but does that still apply?
[57:00] Yeah.
[57:02] We could tweak it here, we could tweak it there, we'd leave it alone, but let's at least revisit it.
[57:06] And I think it's important to do that because I had not done that and I had allowed the nurturing that is required of any relationship to...
[57:20] Um, I, I had not been doing enough of that in the past.
[57:23] I think it's, it's really important to, and I, like I said, man, I still don't do it as well as I'd love to, but I try to, and I think it's important to, you know, do your best to try to, um, and recognize the bits that you're not great at.
[57:37] Yeah.
[57:38] And at least try to at least show that you can recognize the bits you're not great at and just do your best to try and show like, I'm trying to change here.
[57:45] I really am.
[57:47] But look, I have a, um,
[57:49] I drive a car that has a European spec, so the windshield wipers are on the other side to the indicator, right?
[57:55] So I'll jump in Audrey's car, and I'll go to turn left, and I'll turn the windshield wiper on.
[58:03] All the evidence is in front of me.
[58:04] It's right in front of me.
[58:05] But this automatic thing still happens.
[58:07] You know, this neural pathway just fires.
[58:09] And sometimes you can catch it.
[58:12] Sometimes you can't.
[58:13] And it's being able to acknowledge, oh, sorry, done the thing.
[58:18] Do you apologize for you to talk about that?
[58:20] Sorry.
[58:21] It's important to get on top of that kind of stuff and be aware of it.
[58:23] And over time, you know, hopefully it becomes more automatic.
[58:26] That's a really good point.
[58:27] I think sometimes I, in my kind of behavioral blind spots, so to speak, I don't know if that's the right phrase, but things that I am ashamed of, sometimes I admit to them and catch myself and admit to them.
[58:41] And sometimes I'm sort of still so ashamed of them that I don't want to admit it to myself.
[58:46] You know, it's a crusoe there, mate.
[58:47] Come on.
[58:48] Yeah, yeah.
[58:48] Yeah.
[58:49] Yeah, but it's challenging because you're like, fuck, I've done it again.
[58:53] But maybe if I don't mention it, I'll get away with it.
[58:56] No one else will notice.
[58:56] No, no, no.
[58:58] It's in a ledger.
[58:58] There's a ledger.
[58:59] Yeah.
[59:00] There's a ledger.
[59:01] And the cost of not acknowledging it is huge.
[59:05] Yeah.
[59:05] Yeah, to yourself as well, you know, to yourself as well.
[59:09] Because you have the opportunity to, you know, you can drop something that might not be serving you and serving the people around you.
[59:16] And, you know, wouldn't you want to do that?
[59:18] You know, take another rock out of your backpack.
[59:21] Yeah.
[59:21] Get a little bit of a lighter load.
[59:25] But it's hard, you know, it's hard sometimes.
[59:27] I grew up in Queensland, which is a whole other part of Australia that many people forget about.
[59:32] It's amazing.
[59:33] The Queensland?
[59:35] Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[59:36] Okay.
[59:37] It's wonderful or sometimes terrible place.
[59:40] And there's an ad they run there during summer, if it's flooded, forget it.
[59:44] And so that's the kind of thing I'm trying to – What are they advertising?
[59:46] Yeah.
[59:47] Oh, like people who've got, oh, it's a fucking car.
[59:49] I can drive across that.
[59:50] You know, it's raining.
[59:51] Not with this thing.
[59:52] But you can't see what's under the road.
[59:54] You can't see the road might have been washed away.
[59:55] There might be a Subaru Mighty Boy under there.
[59:57] You have no idea what's under there.
[59:59] They're advertising not dying, I think.
[1:00:01] Yeah, basically.
[1:00:02] Well, not dying.
[1:00:03] It's like, let's not have the SES come and die trying to pull your stupid ass out of the river.
[1:00:08] True.
[1:00:08] Which is basically, you know, we don't want to waste helicopter fuel, guys.
[1:00:10] Come on.
[1:00:11] Pull your shit together.
[1:00:12] We're going to winch you out of a tree two k's down the river.
[1:00:15] Which happens.
[1:00:15] Queensland.
[1:00:16] Yeah, Queensland.
[1:00:18] So essentially like I try to notice when my heart's racing or when my breath's quickened and go, ah, and go, oh, right, right, right, right.
[1:00:27] That's the, okay, maybe don't say anything or don't email someone or maybe don't text and, you know, particularly in a relationship with my wife.
[1:00:36] the work that you've done on your relationship with your wife, has that helped you with your relationships with friends and like other relationships in your life?
[1:00:48] Yeah, because I tend to leave, I get less involved in other people's things.
[1:00:58] I have three brothers, I'm two of four.
[1:01:01] My younger brother has this great line, he says, their garden, their path.
[1:01:05] Yeah.
[1:01:06] Fair enough You know You do what you do Matty Yeah I'll be here if you need me Yeah And so that's helped a lot You know Not kind of getting involved in stuff that doesn't involve me Yeah Because I used to want to be a part of it Because I sought the stimulus Wanting to fix things and help people Oh no no It was because I sought the stimulus Yeah I've since figured out why The ADHD diagnosis I was like Oh right I was creating shit Just so Oh now it feels exciting
[1:01:31] now it feels okay there's a lot going on so I tend I try to not do that as much if at all the ADHD diagnosis oh it's wild everything makes everything make a lot of sense yeah I can imagine but you know there's parts of it that are
[1:01:47] I guess the shortest way I could say it is neurodiversity has always existed and ADHD is classified as neurodiverse.
[1:01:55] It's not, you know, what other people are.
[1:01:58] Everything's a spectrum, right?
[1:02:00] But, you know, there's an extraordinary comedian, Jordan Raskopoulos, and she has this beautiful line.
[1:02:07] She says, we've always been here.
[1:02:08] Who the fuck do you think could be bothered to write a dictionary by hand?
[1:02:13] You know, who are we going to get?
[1:02:14] You know, I think about it.
[1:02:16] That's her line.
[1:02:17] But I'm like, who are we going to get to literally sit down by hand and write down every single word we know with a quill?
[1:02:23] And if they fuck it up, start the page again.
[1:02:25] Oh, I know.
[1:02:25] Get Kevin.
[1:02:26] You know, the guy who's good with spreadsheets.
[1:02:27] Doesn't look a lot of people in the eye, but loves precision.
[1:02:29] Go get him.
[1:02:30] You know, who were the cartographers?
[1:02:32] Who could be bothered?
[1:02:33] Like, it's always been a part of how we got to here, you know?
[1:02:37] And I remember when my doctor said, he said, oh, you got OCD.
[1:02:42] I was like, oh, it's like a bouncy castle after a birthday party.
[1:02:44] Like, oh.
[1:02:45] He's like, mate, mate, mate, mate.
[1:02:47] Do you have, that's why you've got the career you've got.
[1:02:50] Like all that working hard stuff before.
[1:02:52] It's like, because I couldn't not do it.
[1:02:53] Like, I was just, it was, I could just do it.
[1:02:55] It's like this brain that does this thing.
[1:02:57] And like with a show like Master Singer, for example, when there's three,
[1:03:01] 10, 11 cameras.
[1:03:03] And, you know, it's all very choreographed.
[1:03:04] And there's a, there's a steady cam and there's like, okay, you're going to do five steps and do this thing and throw a thing and blah, blah, blah.
[1:03:10] Don't stand there right there.
[1:03:11] Cause that's where the fireworks go off and you will catch fire and probably blow a foot off.
[1:03:15] But then we do need you there two beats later.
[1:03:17] Like, and then go and hi, welcome.
[1:03:20] Like absolute peace of quiet.
[1:03:22] So complete serenity.
[1:03:24] That works for you.
[1:03:25] Complete serenity.
[1:03:26] Amazing.
[1:03:26] Yeah.
[1:03:26] Incredible.
[1:03:27] I'm going to make a salad later.
[1:03:29] I'm going to put some olive oil on.
[1:03:31] I know someone exactly like that.
[1:03:33] It's beautiful, you know, and just understand that different brains are good at different stuff and it's helping people understand like downregulation is a really important thing.
[1:03:47] If I could go back and I'm reading a great book called Ed, I love science fiction, and this guy invents a time machine anyway, I would go to that little five-year-old and go, here's some breathing exercises, pal.
[1:03:57] Here's some polyvagal breathing, three in, six out, or four in, eight out.
[1:04:00] It'll stimulate your vagus nerve.
[1:04:02] You'll be fine.
[1:04:02] We'll hypnotize you like a chicken.
[1:04:04] They would have got me out of a lot of trouble being able to downregulate.
[1:04:06] Wow.
[1:04:07] You know, and at least having the moment to kind of look around and not feel everything as if it was actually, it's just, you know, feelings aren't facts.
[1:04:13] Yeah.
[1:04:14] But, you know, just helping, being on meds, I'm on meds now and it's really good because it helps me stay in more control of the bits that make my brain quite good at the job that I do and helps me keep a little more of a handle on the fire hose when it starts to get at it.
[1:04:32] out of whack because in the past that's nearly killed me literally uh so i had yeah that's that's why it's it's quite quite helpful um yeah you know there's benefits and side effects to everything uh with medication but at the moment the ones that i'm on are actually pretty good i get very thirsty which is why i've drunk oh
[1:04:49] all the water in the world.
[1:04:50] But it's, no, it's good.
[1:04:53] And I think it's important to think like, if your kid gets diagnosed or something like that, for God's sake, don't write them off.
[1:05:00] They just have a brain that's good at other stuff, you know, and giving them the support.
[1:05:05] The way that I think about it is this, is that, you know,
[1:05:10] These, you know, brains have been different since time immemorial, but eventually we started to have to think about systems that we needed to create to serve the most amount of people as we could for the least amount of money.
[1:05:18] Education, healthcare, justice, you know, how can we get the most amount of people in the bell curve through the door?
[1:05:24] So being on meds has helped me kind of engage with those systems a bit easier.
[1:05:28] Yeah, yeah.
[1:05:29] It's fascinating.
[1:05:30] Which is crucial, yeah.
[1:05:32] We had someone on the podcast a little while ago and a little bit like you had been through a real journey and I was sitting here listening to them.
[1:05:39] I remember years ago thinking, gosh, they've arrived at such a good place.
[1:05:42] A year and a half later, I heard them do an interview with someone and they said, oh,
[1:05:47] around that time in your life, how were you going?
[1:05:50] And it was the time on the podcast I said I was in a really bad place.
[1:05:52] Wow.
[1:05:52] And I remember thinking, gosh, we often hear people who can speak with great insight into their journey, what they've learnt, and we go, oh, they've sorted it out and we've learnt so much from them.
[1:06:04] But I guess it's a long way of asking the question, how are you now at the moment?
[1:06:07] Well, it's never over, guys.
[1:06:10] It's never like, I went to therapy and I'm all done.
[1:06:14] That worked for that point.
[1:06:16] in your life.
[1:06:18] You might've got a new job.
[1:06:19] You got a year old, or your knee's a bit weird now.
[1:06:21] You know, you, you one of your kids is suddenly into this thing or they've now got a new friend and you're a bit more like, it doesn't end, you know?
[1:06:29] And, um, like right now I'm, I'm, I'm great.
[1:06:33] Like it's not without its challenges, but it's, it's, it's, it's fairly equal.
[1:06:38] You know, um, I have a phrase in America, which I loved, um, they tackle hard in the NFL.
[1:06:45] You know, it's like, this is the game I've chosen to play.
[1:06:48] This is the game.
[1:06:50] This is the speed and the rate and the amount of projects that I have chosen to pursue.
[1:06:53] I could not do this.
[1:06:56] I can't not do this though.
[1:06:58] But this is the pace and the unreliability of the career I've chosen and I choose it.
[1:07:05] But at this point I can't not do it.
[1:07:07] And that comes with its own amount of peril, but it's an incredible reward.
[1:07:12] And that's not without its stresses.
[1:07:15] Susan David, who's a part-time Melbourneite, which I do love,
[1:07:18] She wrote a book called Emotional Agility.
[1:07:20] She's a psychologist professor in, I think it's called Harvard.
[1:07:26] Good pronunciation.
[1:07:27] Yeah, I've been practicing.
[1:07:29] She has a great line, Uncomfortable feelings are the price of admission to a meaningful life.
[1:07:33] It's perfect.
[1:07:34] It's beautiful.
[1:07:35] It's like, it's true.
[1:07:37] It's true.
[1:07:38] And yes, you'd be okay with it.
[1:07:40] Just understand it's not permanent.
[1:07:41] So like it's, it's a bit tricky right now.
[1:07:43] You know, I just ordered him.
[1:07:45] Wolfie just went back on a plane back to Sydney and he's cooked from daylight saving.
[1:07:49] And, you know, she's taking a toddler by herself with a baby seat in the pram and all this shit up through the airport.
[1:07:55] And I'm getting texts from her.
[1:07:56] I'm like, I'm sorry, I'm not there to help.
[1:07:58] You know, it's, you know, it's tough on days like that.
[1:08:02] And...
[1:08:02] you know, but it won't be like that forever.
[1:08:04] And she's amazing.
[1:08:05] And we're all working hard to try and make it as good as we can.
[1:08:09] And so, yeah, it's everything at once, you know, but that's okay.
[1:08:15] I'd like to think that the needle's still on the side of –
[1:08:18] we're learning and growing.
[1:08:20] Because I don't think I'd like it very much if I wasn't learning and growing.
[1:08:24] The idea when I grew up, it was, you get a job here and then you leave that job when you're 55.
[1:08:29] I would fucking go crazy.
[1:08:32] I couldn't do that.
[1:08:33] I can't do that.
[1:08:34] And I'm grateful that there's variance, but also this kind of through line of trying to act in accordance with my values with everything.
[1:08:42] And as long as I get a bit of that in, I'm okay.
[1:08:45] I feel like saying congratulations as far as like you've just – For getting to the end of the interview.
[1:08:51] Just congratulations for some of the things that you have overcome and then the fact that you are willing to share it in order to help other people.
[1:08:58] I feel like saying congratulations.
[1:08:59] I appreciate that, man.
[1:09:00] But like don't think that –
[1:09:02] There aren't raised voices in my house every week.
[1:09:05] There are, you know.
[1:09:07] And that's okay.
[1:09:09] It's okay.
[1:09:11] Well, I like what you said.
[1:09:12] I think progress, not perfection, I think is a really nice one.
[1:09:15] That's not mine.
[1:09:16] Yeah, but the one you passed on.
[1:09:18] Yeah.
[1:09:20] So, thank you so much, Oshon.
[1:09:21] Oh, thanks for having me.
[1:09:22] It's a great honor to be here.
[1:09:23] Thanks, bud.
[1:09:24] Thanks, Oshon.
[1:09:36] Well, there he was, Osher Gunzberg.
[1:09:38] When he left, I sort of walked him out to chat to him about the fact that Penny is writing a book around her stuff with OCD.
[1:09:46] I felt like the interview sort of just continued all the way out the door to when he was on his bike to when he was riding off down the street.
[1:09:50] He just sort of, as I said, bye.
[1:09:52] He was still saying stuff to me as he rode off.
[1:09:53] And he just – Wow.
[1:09:55] It was like when a song finishes by – there's no ending to it.
[1:09:58] It just gets quieter and quieter.
[1:09:59] It was a bit like that.
[1:10:00] He just sort of –
[1:10:01] He was faded out.
[1:10:03] He faded himself out by lying off on his bike.
[1:10:05] And so, but yeah, there's so much to him.
[1:10:08] He would be, I mean, I imagine he'd be one of those people that if you caught up with him...
[1:10:11] just privately, just not on air, that you could have the exact same conversation.
[1:10:15] He just clearly really loves talking about, not necessarily himself, but just talking about these sorts of issues.
[1:10:23] Yeah, connecting over vulnerability, yeah.
[1:10:25] He's an open book, isn't he?
[1:10:26] He's got this sense of like, he's not trying to hide anything here.
[1:10:29] No.
[1:10:30] He just really wants to talk about it.
[1:10:31] Well, I think on his podcast, like Better Than Yesterday, which is his podcast, you know, he talks about everything.
[1:10:36] You know, I think it's a very, very, it's sort of like his place to talk about whatever's on his mind, whatever he's going through.
[1:10:43] So, yeah.
[1:10:44] He's been doing it for a long time as well.
[1:10:45] I think before it was as acceptable to do this.
[1:10:49] Yeah, he's a real early adopter.
[1:10:51] Yeah.
[1:10:52] He really was.
[1:10:52] Yeah.
[1:10:53] No, it was great to meet him actually.
[1:10:54] So the one thing that I want to talk about from that chat, which really stood out to me a lot, was just the conversation we had around him changing his name.
[1:11:02] Oh, yeah.
[1:11:02] And I remember you said in that chat that you were very honest with him, which I thought was great, but you said you kind of rolled your eyes when you heard he'd changed his name.
[1:11:11] Yeah, I just remember when the news came out years ago, whenever he said 2009 or 10 or whenever, I forget what the year was, but around that time when he changed his name.
[1:11:19] Yeah, it was a news thing.
[1:11:21] And I remember thinking, yeah, like exactly like Rolly Myers and thinking that was a weird...
[1:11:25] thing to do.
[1:11:26] But I was younger then, probably more judgmental, less empathetic maybe than I am now.
[1:11:32] And yeah, I was interested to know why I did it, but I also felt like I needed to, I felt like it was maybe something a lot of people did when he said it.
[1:11:41] And I was just interested to know how he felt about that.
[1:11:43] I don't know about you, Josh, but I was the same definitely when I heard a change in him.
[1:11:47] I kind of, I didn't know him at all.
[1:11:49] He was just this extremely famous, successful person.
[1:11:52] Yeah.
[1:11:52] And I probably rolled my eyes a bit as well and thought, what are you doing?
[1:11:56] Yeah, I mean, I guess the immediate thing, and maybe I should have spoken up while he was here to join in on this conversation, but now that I think about it, I feel like with him and with other people when they do things that are very individual to them, it's easy to have a bad interpretation of it or going like, well, in his case, he's a celebrity and he just probably is doing it for more attention or something like that.
[1:12:17] To judge what you don't understand.
[1:12:18] To judge what I don't understand and not look at the person.
[1:12:22] And then I was blown away and I feel a bit shameful as well for thinking that.
[1:12:26] I never really said it out loud but for thinking that way about him and thinking that way about other people that do something that's quite individualistic to them.
[1:12:34] Like make a statement or do something that is not what we normally see people do.
[1:12:40] I think I've almost done like a 180 on that the older I get.
[1:12:45] It's now when people do something which is so different or generally considered strange or risky in that way, I kind of love it.
[1:12:55] Yeah, me too.
[1:12:56] I just love it.
[1:12:57] It's like, oh, good.
[1:12:58] I'm glad people are doing things that...
[1:13:00] Like ruffling feathers or like it's a great thing that exists.
[1:13:05] It's a big step to go from because I think the barrier to that is worrying what other people think.
[1:13:10] Yeah.
[1:13:10] Like that is the barrier.
[1:13:11] Totally.
[1:13:12] And I learned in high school to be much better at not worrying about what people think of you.
[1:13:17] I think and been through stage of my life, I think I've been really good at it.
[1:13:20] and I think like a lot of people you go through depending on how secure you feel in different settings, but I've noticed of late, I have been not worried, but thinking a lot about what this new group of people in my life, the Queensland football team think of me, and I've found myself 42 years old, all of a sudden I felt like I was back in early high school worrying about what people think and do I fit in, and I haven't had that in a long time, and I think it's because I like those guys so much, and also the work they're doing is very meaningful stuff, so I
[1:13:50] And I also feel like as an outsider with Billy Slater, asked me to join, I really want to do a good job for him.
[1:13:54] I don't want to let him down.
[1:13:55] I wouldn't want to let Billy Slater down either.
[1:13:58] No.
[1:13:58] Or any one of those men.
[1:13:59] Yeah, I wouldn't want to let any of them down.
[1:14:02] And so I was just reading about it and I found it on Psych Central.
[1:14:05] It was an article that says signs that you worry too much about what other people think.
[1:14:09] Because part of me was like, is it that?
[1:14:10] Is it that I'm worrying about what they think?
[1:14:11] And then I read this article and it was –
[1:14:13] It's definitely what it is.
[1:14:15] And just reading this article and being aware of it has helped me so much.
[1:14:17] But I want to go through some of the things that – these are some of the signs that you're worrying too much or other people think.
[1:14:22] And then there's a couple of – I found two really nice things that you can do that I read and thought, yeah, that would work for me in dealing with this.
[1:14:30] So the first one is you change yourself in response to criticism, regardless of what it is and who it comes from.
[1:14:36] On the bus, I was thinking we've got a big day of podcast records.
[1:14:39] I can't drink like they're going to celebrate.
[1:14:42] And a guy came down the middle of the bus with the can of Forex's, with the tinder for any set of beer.
[1:14:47] And I went, no, I'm good, thanks.
[1:14:49] And then there's a guy called Nate who I just love, Nate Miles.
[1:14:51] He was on the bus seat just right next to me.
[1:14:55] And he goes, you serious?
[1:14:57] And I went, huh.
[1:14:58] No, no, I'll have a beer, definitely.
[1:15:02] Just look at this, go, is he serious?
[1:15:03] No, no, I'm definitely, no, I will, no, no, I'd love to have a beer, great.
[1:15:06] You dare come into our bus and reject a beer.
[1:15:10] So it was like, I changed my behavior immediately.
[1:15:13] Yeah.
[1:15:13] The second I was questioned.
[1:15:14] The second I was questioned.
[1:15:16] But surely it's more cool just to go, I don't want a beer.
[1:15:19] No, stop asking me.
[1:15:20] Yeah, I know.
[1:15:21] But if they're so insistent, it becomes then confrontational.
[1:15:25] Yeah.
[1:15:26] Okay.
[1:15:27] The second one, you let other people make decisions for you.
[1:15:30] I'm on stage level six.
[1:15:32] I know everyone's going to celebrate on level two.
[1:15:34] And I put my finger out to press on level six.
[1:15:37] And Cameron Smith, legend in the left of your gaze, no, level two.
[1:15:41] And I went, yep, no worries.
[1:15:42] Yeah.
[1:15:43] Like, changed my mind straight away.
[1:15:45] And so I let him make the decision for me.
[1:15:47] I'm a grown person.
[1:15:48] I'm actually older than them all.
[1:15:48] I could have easily gone.
[1:15:51] Doesn't matter.
[1:15:52] Doesn't matter though.
[1:15:53] It's such a primary school thing to think.
[1:15:55] I'm older than them.
[1:15:56] But I'm a year older than you Cameron Smith.
[1:15:58] I make my own decisions.
[1:16:01] Yep, no, we're going to level two.
[1:16:03] The next one, you don't set or maintain boundaries.
[1:16:05] I think we've covered that one.
[1:16:07] You're a perfectionist.
[1:16:08] I didn't know it was coming, but after the game, Billy got me to get in the middle of the group and do this little chant thing that they do and to lead it.
[1:16:15] I literally had to say-
[1:16:17] five words.
[1:16:18] And after the five words, I'm standing around and I was like, everyone's singing the song after I'd done the chant, led the chant.
[1:16:25] And I was like, I could have done that better.
[1:16:28] That needed more gusto.
[1:16:29] If everyone needed gusto, it was then, I didn't quite give them the gusto they would have wanted.
[1:16:32] There is no way anyone there was going, oh, that was disappointing.
[1:16:35] Like they just, when I was singing the song, but I was just, I spent, I was like, why didn't I just really roar that voice?
[1:16:43] The next one, you hold your tongue if your opinion differs from everyone else's.
[1:16:46] I haven't really, that hasn't been an issue, but I can see how that would definitely happen.
[1:16:51] Next one, your peace of mind relies on approval from others.
[1:16:55] He said, I might have realized an approval from it.
[1:16:57] Oh, okay.
[1:16:57] Like knowing that you belong, having confirmation the whole way that you belong.
[1:17:01] I have that as a big one for me.
[1:17:03] You're constantly apologizing, even when you did nothing wrong.
[1:17:06] I was so apologetic about being like, I mean, I told them a thousand times.
[1:17:10] I couldn't get there till a certain time, but I couldn't stop apologizing to Pebble.
[1:17:13] I just felt so bad.
[1:17:16] And you rarely say no.
[1:17:18] I don't think I've said the word no once yet to that group.
[1:17:21] But do you think like with all these things, like worrying about what people think, does it generally, because I'm thinking about myself again, I'm just wondering, are you more likely to worry about what people think of you if you admire them in some way?
[1:17:35] Yeah, possibly.
[1:17:37] But I think once you get to, I went in there just full admiration and respect for these guys and then you get to know them as people and that disappears.
[1:17:43] It's just, they're just a really great group of people.
[1:17:46] But do you care less about what someone thinks about you if you don't care for them?
[1:17:50] Probably, yeah.
[1:17:51] I think you probably care less, yeah.
[1:17:52] Yeah, I care a lot about these boys, a lot.
[1:17:55] And so I really – and because I just am very different to them.
[1:17:58] I just feel like I just want to fit in and have found myself falling into that trap of just worrying too much.
[1:18:04] Like that school thing.
[1:18:06] Yeah, it's such a school thing.
[1:18:07] Yeah.
[1:18:07] If that resonates with people who are thinking, yeah, I'm in that – that's me.
[1:18:12] I'm hanging out with a group of people who I really like –
[1:18:15] They're great people, but I am worried too much about what they think.
[1:18:17] There was so much you can read online about ways to deal with this.
[1:18:21] I just found two things, both based on research, which I found incredibly helpful.
[1:18:26] The first one was researched on a lady called Alice Moon, only last year.
[1:18:32] I found this in a journal of personality and social psychology.
[1:18:36] She did a research page, which she entitled The Overblown Implications Effect.
[1:18:43] Which basically says that, tells us that we often believe people judge us much more harshly than they actually are.
[1:18:49] In reality, we're often much harder on ourselves than anyone else is on us.
[1:18:53] Makes so much sense.
[1:18:54] And so we just spend way too much time analysing situations, assuming that they have the worst impression of what we've just done.
[1:19:01] Yeah.
[1:19:01] And it's never, like her research would indicate, it's far different.
[1:19:04] There's a greater differential, a huge differential.
[1:19:06] It probably means, not probably means, but it could mean that they're busy thinking about what other people are thinking of them.
[1:19:14] So, like, we're all worried about the same thing.
[1:19:16] Yes.
[1:19:16] Which means that we can't be worried.
[1:19:18] You know, we can't, we're not thinking about other people that much because generally speaking, most of us are thinking, are worried about what other people think of us.
[1:19:25] Totally.
[1:19:25] Yeah.
[1:19:25] Generally speaking, I'd say.
[1:19:27] Totally.
[1:19:27] As a guess.
[1:19:29] I love guessing on this podcast.
[1:19:33] And there's a moment which I just love from, I guess it speaks to empathy, but very simply, hold your judgments of other people.
[1:19:40] Next time you meet a new colleague or your friend introduce you to their partner, hold off on casting blanket judgments about them.
[1:19:47] Even if the first impression isn't great, give them a chance.
[1:19:50] Being accepting of others can help you let go of what others think of you.
[1:19:54] If you know you're giving people the benefit of the doubt, you're more likely to think that others are doing the same for you.
[1:19:59] Love that.
[1:20:00] That's a very nice one.
[1:20:01] That's good.
[1:20:02] Yeah.
[1:20:02] But there's so much online.
[1:20:04] They're the two that really spoke to me the most.
[1:20:06] Brilliant.
[1:20:07] Awesome.
[1:20:08] Well, thank you, Hugh.
[1:20:09] Josh, thank you.
[1:20:10] Thank you.
[1:20:11] Thanks for watching.
[1:20:12] Osher, thank you.
[1:20:13] So, his podcast, Better Than Yesterday, we'll link to it in the show notes.
[1:20:16] I'm sure most of you have already heard it or followed it already, but if you haven't, you should definitely have a listen.
[1:20:20] And if you want to see him on television, just turn the television on.
[1:20:23] He's probably on.
[1:20:24] He'll be there.
[1:20:25] He does every show currently on television.
[1:20:27] True.
[1:20:28] We will put a link to television in the show notes if you need to find that somewhere.
[1:20:34] Thank you, guys.
[1:20:34] Good to see you.
[1:20:36] See you next week.
[1:20:37] I wrote your link to television.
[1:20:39] Down the line, television.
[1:20:49] Hugh, it's Ryan.
[1:20:51] That was great with Usher.
[1:20:52] What an interesting chat.
[1:20:54] What a lovely guy too.
[1:20:56] Great to see you as always.
[1:20:58] But I think I left my glasses in the studio.
[1:21:00] For some reason, I didn't wear them when I walked out.
[1:21:04] So if you're still in the studio, can you have a look just on the desk or something?
[1:21:10] I'm not sure exactly where I left them, but if you are still there, can you just...
[1:21:16] have a quick look and yeah, just let me know.
[1:21:19] Give me a call or something.
[1:21:21] Actually, oh my God.
[1:21:23] No, you're right here.
[1:21:25] You're in the park, I'm walking past.
[1:21:26] It's so weird, Hugh.
[1:21:29] Hey mate, Hugh.
[1:21:32] Hugh.
[1:21:34] Hugh, I was just leaving you a message on the, Hugh.
[1:21:39] Hugh.
[1:21:41] Hugh, it's.
[1:21:44] um okay that's actually sorry that was actually a small tree um yeah i'm gonna really need those glasses mate so if you're still there can you please give me a call back and let me know i can't see a thing it's ryan shelton from from the podcast
[1:22:12] The Imperfects is hosted and produced by Hugh Van Kylenberg, Ryan Shelton and Josh Van Kylenberg.
[1:22:17] Our executive producer is Bridget North East.
[1:22:19] This episode is filmed by Andy Poole and edited by George Martin.
[1:22:23] The Imperfects is not a licensed mental health service and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, treatment or assessment.
[1:22:30] The advice given in this episode is general in nature, but if you're struggling, please see a healthcare professional or call Lifeline on 13 11 14.
[1:22:42] You set the flame by the doorway, let it beep.

Shows are listed from Apple Podcasts' charts and directory, and Podcast Index where it is used. Every show and episode belongs to its publisher and plays from the publisher's own feed; this site hosts none of them.