# Dan Sultan - Stopping The Bullshit

An episode of [The Imperfects](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1476501557), 1 Oct 2023, 54 min.

Audio: https://enrichment.soundstack.com/4vjqq8/episode.flightcast.com/k1g816uq3t6q4ehljpdowsqa.mp3

Eastern Arrernte and Gurindji singer/songwriter Dan Sultan is a 5-time ARIA Award winner and respected stalwart of the Australian music industry. But alongside his creative achievements, is Dan’s struggle with addiction. Dan talks with Hugh, Ryan and Josh about everything from the adversity he’s faced on and off the stage, to the joy he now gets from his young family, and his ongoing love of creativity. To purchase or listen to Dan's new album, Dan Sultan, follow this link: https://bit.ly/3ZBv9NQ To watch Paul Keating's historic Redfern speech that Josh mentions in the episode, follow this link: https://bit.ly/3EVltnA To listen to our episode with Brooke Blurton, mentioned in this episode, follow this link: https://bit.ly/459k1c6 The Imperfects is not a licensed mental health service and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, treatment or assessment. The advice given in this episode is general in nature, but if you’re struggling, please see a healthcare professional, or call lifeline on 13 11 14.

## Transcript

[0:00] My name is Bridget and I produce The Imperfects.
[0:03] I grew up in Australia, but my ancestors arrived by boat in search of gold during the 1800s.
[0:08] What I've come to realise is that they arrived on land that had been cared for by the Indigenous peoples of this continent for millennia.
[0:15] It was and always will be Aboriginal land.
[0:18] We at The Imperfects would like to acknowledge the Wurundjeri people of the Kulin Nation as the traditional owners of the land on which this podcast was recorded, and we extend our respects to their elders past and present.
[0:28] At The Imperfects, my job is to create a space for important stories to be heard.
[0:33] And in doing so, I pay homage to a rich history of storytelling cultivated by the world's oldest living culture.
[0:48] We're all imperfect.
[0:50] And on this podcast, I'll be chatting with a variety of interesting people who are willing to make themselves vulnerable by sharing their own struggles and imperfections.
[0:58] Then we'll discuss the invaluable takeaways we can all apply to our own imperfect lives.
[1:04] I'm Hugh Van Kylenberg from The Resilience Project.
[1:06] And I'm Ryan Shelton from My Mum.
[1:08] And I'm Josh from Hugh's Mum.
[1:11] And this is The Imperfects.
[1:16] Hello, guys.
[1:17] Good morning.
[1:17] Good morning.
[1:18] Now, as you know, and I hate to make a big deal about it, but you know that it's my birthday today, the day we are recording this.
[1:25] 30 again.
[1:27] 42.
[1:28] And so, anyway, I was just walking here this morning.
[1:31] First thing I thought was seven times six when you said that.
[1:34] I don't know why.
[1:35] Anyway, good.
[1:36] Great.
[1:36] You are a maths whiz.
[1:39] Shell off.
[1:42] You hate it when it's not a prime number, don't you?
[1:44] You hate it.
[1:44] Yeah, it's the worst.
[1:45] Yeah.
[1:46] Maths flex.
[1:48] So anyway, I'm walking to work this morning and I'm just about to cross this busy road and this woman starts sort of like walking along the road, like behind me.
[1:59] And she's like this very jolly person.
[2:01] She sees me and we like lock eyes and she gives me like a look of recognition.
[2:08] And I was like, oh, here we go.
[2:10] This is nice for a birthday morning, a bit of recognition, a bit of an Imperfects fan maybe, maybe an old Rove diehard.
[2:19] And so she like sort of came up to me.
[2:21] I was like, oh, here we go, here we go.
[2:23] And she goes, happy Tuesday.
[2:30] And I was like, oh, yeah.
[2:32] Happy Tuesday.
[2:33] Thank you.
[2:33] Yeah.
[2:34] So not only does she not know who I am, fine.
[2:38] It's my birthday.
[2:39] She didn't even know it was my birthday.
[2:41] She got the second word wrong.
[2:43] She got the second word wrong.
[2:45] Happy, yes.
[2:46] So it was actually lovely.
[2:48] Like, who says that?
[2:48] Like, she was actually a very lovely person to do that.
[2:51] And it gave me, on one hand, gave me a good positive start to the day.
[2:54] But on the other hand, made me realize I need to do more publicity.
[2:57] Was she potentially a fan of your T-shirt?
[3:01] Well, I didn't actually, it wasn't showing the t-shirt, but now you mention it.
[3:05] God, we may as well make a big deal about that.
[3:08] Definitely.
[3:08] Go on.
[3:10] So Ryan had an idea for a t-shirt and he loved it so much he decided to make it.
[3:15] Well, the slightly funny scenario of it was a couple of weeks ago when I had the idea of it.
[3:20] You called me, Hugh.
[3:21] Oh, yeah.
[3:22] And it was quite late.
[3:23] It was probably like 9.30 or something.
[3:25] And you wanted to talk about something we were recording the next day.
[3:28] And you called me and said, hey, hey, what are you doing?
[3:30] And I was literally sitting in front of the computer on my design program designing the T-shirt.
[3:35] And knowing how busy you are with, like, family and everything you do, it just seemed like a very indulgent moment.
[3:41] I'm...
[3:43] designing a t-shirt idea that I just had because I have the time.
[3:49] It's very good.
[3:50] And not only did you design it, you went and had it made and you weren't today and I really like it.
[3:53] Oh, thanks, Hugh.
[3:53] Thank you.
[3:55] It says, ironically, it's spelled wrong and ironically is spelled incorrectly.
[3:59] God, how do you like that?
[4:01] Genius.
[4:02] Are we going to sell them or is it just a one-off?
[4:03] It's a one-off.
[4:04] Okay.
[4:04] I've actually made two of them, so that's a two-off.
[4:07] I don't know why I made two of them.
[4:08] Is it for Jamie?
[4:09] You both have got to walk around wearing the same.
[4:10] She will not wear this.
[4:13] I guarantee it.
[4:15] I guarantee it.
[4:16] Have I told you the story, just thinking about that lady who did the Happy Tuesday, have I told the story in the podcast about the guy during the pandemic that Soph was what was like the deepest dark winter, darkest of winter in Melbourne, weeks and weeks into lockdown, going for a walk?
[4:31] And there was a, and Soph had Charlie as a six month old strapped on to her front using the baby carrier thing.
[4:40] And there was a lovely old couple with masks on walking in the other direction.
[4:44] And they looked at her and the guy pulled up a pre-made sign that said, I'm smiling.
[4:49] Oh, because he's wearing a mask.
[4:50] Yeah, because he's wearing a mask.
[4:51] It was really sweet.
[4:52] It made her day.
[4:55] It went around on social media a lot during the lockdown.
[4:58] Steve Martin, the American comedian actor, he is sort of notoriously known to – he doesn't like attention, doesn't like fame or anything.
[5:07] But being a comedian, he likes also laughing at that.
[5:10] So when masks were mandatory, he was walking around wherever he lives, probably LA or something, walking around with his mask on and he had sunglasses and a cap on and then like a sign attached to his hat that said, I'm Steve Martin.
[5:24] Yeah.
[5:32] Right, let's get on to Dan Sultan, an incredible, incredible man, really.
[5:37] I mean, if I can be very honest, the first thing I thought when I met him, we chatted on the phone the day before and then when we met him, I remember I was...
[5:44] Like I know what he looks like, but I remember being really taken back by how handsome he is.
[5:48] The first thing I thought was, crikey, what a handsome man.
[5:50] He is.
[5:51] He sure is.
[5:52] He's got real presence as well.
[5:53] He certainly does.
[5:54] He's a very cool man.
[5:55] Yeah.
[5:56] Yeah.
[5:56] Well, he was, I mean, I don't think, I mean, he was wearing, he's all in black, which is like, you know, not that strange, but I feel like there's an added, it's like a very Johnny Cash thing, like dressed in black.
[6:06] It was just, there's a slickness to that, isn't there?
[6:09] Slick is a good way to describe it.
[6:11] Yeah, yeah.
[6:13] He's, I mean, I think most people probably, I mean, if you don't know Dan Sullivan, he's a five-time ARIA award-winning musician who has, wildest successful Australian musician, Indigenous man who...
[6:28] Yeah.
[6:28] He was just, there was something about him that was like when he walked into a room, you could just, there was a serious presence around him.
[6:35] There's also, I think, because I, actually I can say this because it's probably maybe a little tease of something that's going to happen soon, but I was working on a song with some people.
[6:45] That is a very juicy tease.
[6:47] Yeah.
[6:47] It's actually, people are going to find out about it very soon.
[6:50] Yeah, maybe in two or three days, depending on when they listen to it, but when this was released, two or three days.
[6:56] But I was working on some music with some extremely talented musicians I was lucky enough to work with.
[7:01] And I walked in on a conversation with them and they were talking about people that they've worked with.
[7:06] who have an ability when put in front of an audience to kind of take it to the next level is almost underselling it.
[7:13] They were saying there's this transcendence that takes over the band, takes over the room.
[7:18] And I think anyone who's been to a good music show, like a good gig, remembers these gigs where you're like, that was one of the best things I've ever seen.
[7:25] It was like something else happened.
[7:27] And they were saying that of all the artists they've worked with, yeah.
[7:31] One of the people that can do it as well as anyone is Dan Sultan.
[7:34] And it's just, it really, it was something special, they were saying.
[7:40] To be on stage with him or to see him live is something really special.
[7:44] He's got a way to transcend and communicate with an audience that is a rare gift.
[7:50] I guess it's probably worth saying up front before we can do this interview that I chatted to Dan the day before over the phone for a little while and I mean, I think what people expect when they listen to the Imperfects is people to tell their war stories, like what they've been through and the ups and downs and especially the downs really.
[8:09] And you'll notice we don't really go there in this interview.
[8:12] Dan, I got the sense in the chat we had the day before was a little bit uncomfortable
[8:16] rehashing the story of the issues he's had with drug and alcohol over his life.
[8:20] He has had his struggles and that all came to a head in 2018.
[8:24] He was doing a show in Cairns, I think it was, and he was heavily intoxicated and he fell off a stool or something.
[8:31] Yeah.
[8:32] And that got a lot of meatier and he's done a lot of work to –
[8:38] A lot of very unfair media, I think is the point.
[8:42] Totally.
[8:42] And I totally get where he's coming from because the way that that story was reported immediately played into some pretty awful racial stereotypes and nasty stuff.
[8:52] So, yeah, I think we all were thinking it's totally understandable that he wouldn't want to rehash that and go there again because it's been burnt many, many, many times.
[9:04] And so we obviously respect that.
[9:06] We had a wonderful chat with Dan.
[9:08] I got so much from, he talked a lot about the recovery process, the way he worked his way through addiction.
[9:15] And I just, there's so much advice in there for people who are struggling with addiction at the moment.
[9:20] And we just love this chat with Dan.
[9:22] Here he is, Dan Sultan.
[9:32] We are joined by, I was going to say music royalty, but I feel like that's selling you a bit short, to be honest.
[9:38] I feel like just royalty, royalty, just... Just music, music.
[9:42] We'll leave out the royalty.
[9:44] So music, music.
[9:45] Yeah.
[9:45] We're joined by music, music.
[9:47] His nickname.
[9:49] Gee.
[9:49] Yeah.
[9:49] A lot of pressure on it.
[9:50] You can call me music.
[9:54] A lot of pressure on someone's career if the parents call them music music.
[9:58] There's only really one road.
[9:59] Yeah, what do you want to be when you grow up?
[10:01] Yeah, architect.
[10:03] Whoa.
[10:04] Wow.
[10:05] We're in sync.
[10:05] You together have come in on a very established scene here.
[10:09] We're joined by Dan Salton.
[10:11] Welcome, Dan.
[10:11] Thank you so much.
[10:12] My pleasure.
[10:13] It's very exciting to have you here.
[10:15] You very recently have had your latest album come out.
[10:19] It's self-titled.
[10:20] And I've always thought, I don't know why I've thought this, but if it's a self-titled album, I've always thought it would be one that the artist would be immensely proud of to go, I'm just calling this my name.
[10:29] And I feel like having listened to the first six tracks on it, it feels like it's been an incredible creative process for you.
[10:40] And I'm interested to know if you enjoyed it.
[10:44] Did you enjoy the process of... Yeah, I enjoyed it a lot.
[10:48] It's the most authentic I've been able to be in my writing up till now.
[10:54] I think I've always been as authentic and passionate as I possibly could have been.
[11:01] And I'd always done as good a job as I could have done in that regard.
[11:07] But...
[11:10] For a few reasons, I've been able to do that more than I've ever been able to do that now.
[11:16] And I'm really proud of it.
[11:17] Wow.
[11:17] Yeah.
[11:18] And is that something that's felt going into the process of writing the album?
[11:22] Did you feel that sense of sort of clarity and the word arrival used before?
[11:27] Or is that something that's sort of come out through the process of doing it where you started to feel like, oh, shit, this is all, this is really good?
[11:33] Yeah, well, both.
[11:36] Yeah, it certainly was extremely cathartic.
[11:40] I think if I'm doing it right, it should always be cathartic, you know, any creative process.
[11:46] But, yeah, it certainly developed as I went through.
[11:49] I started writing it in September of 2019 and finished writing it in February this year, 2023.
[11:59] Wow.
[12:01] I'd have been through a lot.
[12:02] There were bushfires and floods and pandemics.
[12:07] I had my oldest child, who's four now, wasn't even a year old when I started writing it.
[12:16] And we had another kid as well, who's almost two.
[12:20] So they know the songs well.
[12:25] That being said, my neighbours know the songs pretty well too.
[12:30] So there's two periods of my writing over the journey.
[12:34] There's everything up until a song called Wait in Love and then there's everything after that.
[12:40] And Wait in Love delivered me to a place and it says, delivered me, that's a line in the song, you know,
[12:47] I only realised the other day that it actually did deliver me to a place and it was an arrival for myself, um, into a much happier,
[13:00] dedicated, authentic, stronger place to be working from and working in.
[13:08] So like creativity for you is like such a healing, I don't know if healing is the right word, but... Like cathartic.
[13:14] A cathartic, I guess, yeah.
[13:15] Like an important part of your just life, I guess, in general.
[13:21] It sounds like more recently though, the process of creativity has had like a slightly different role than it has in the past.
[13:28] Is that fair to say?
[13:29] No, it hasn't.
[13:30] It's still the same, but it's just amplified and concentrated.
[13:36] But this record is just so all of my story and stories, so personal.
[13:47] And, yeah, I mean, I'd written in with, so, for instance, being creative in the past where I'd be writing for past records, I'd be thinking about...
[13:58] Airplay, and then that would sort of have a follow-on effect with what bills you get on and what size venues you're able to book for your own shows.
[14:09] And with this record, I wasn't thinking about that at all.
[14:12] That's incredible.
[14:13] At all.
[14:14] It was only the work.
[14:15] Is that the first time you think you've... That's the first time, yeah.
[14:18] And it was Weight in Love.
[14:19] I wrote Weight in Love.
[14:20] Was there something that you did or like a significant change that you made that you were able to get to that place?
[14:27] Because it's quite a huge life shift for anyone.
[14:31] Yeah.
[14:32] Was there something that you were like, okay, this has now caused me like having kids or like is there?
[14:36] I think kids is a big part of it.
[14:38] You know, they say you change when you have kids, and I understand what people say, what people mean when they say that.
[14:44] I don't agree with it.
[14:45] I actually think for myself personally, and maybe people do, but for me personally, I didn't change at all.
[14:52] I think I just became more of the person I always was.
[14:55] And so if anything, I stopped changing, you know.
[14:58] Yeah, yeah.
[14:59] It's like I stopped all the bullshit, basically.
[15:05] And look, I'm not...
[15:07] I'm not having a go at myself when I don't, I've carried some shame around it for a while, but I don't feel shame around it anymore.
[15:14] I was just doing what I, it took me as long as it took me to get to this place as it needed to take.
[15:21] The child thing, I had kids around the same time, sort of trajectory as you, slightly later, about a year later.
[15:29] and have two now.
[15:30] And I know exactly what you mean with regards to all the outside, all the negative talk.
[15:39] Like I still struggle with it a lot, but I find that there was something that happened when I had my kids where I was like, I think for me it was that I didn't want them to have a role model who said the shit that I said about myself.
[15:53] But also there's something about...
[15:57] For me, loving them so much has made me go, well, I probably deserve to love, not love myself.
[16:03] I hate that phrase, but just give myself a bit of a break sometimes.
[16:07] Yeah.
[16:08] And the...
[16:10] Yeah, I don't know what my point is here, but just to say that what you said really resonates.
[16:14] I think I understand what you mean.
[16:15] And correct me if I'm wrong, but for instance, I'm a sober person.
[16:20] I don't drink and I don't do drugs.
[16:21] And I have before.
[16:23] And I stopped a little over five years ago.
[16:26] And I was a year sober before my first kid was born too, which I'm really proud of.
[16:31] Yeah.
[16:34] But, you know, I went to rehab and they speak about higher power.
[16:38] And it's a higher power of your choosing.
[16:41] And for me, it was the love of my family for me and the love I had for them, which was...
[16:49] So the high power is about putting something above yourself to help with trying to get healthy.
[16:58] Yeah, the love.
[17:00] And then you have kids and you just go, fuck, you know.
[17:02] It's like, oh, my God.
[17:04] Stakes of reason.
[17:05] Oh, the love is just insane, you know.
[17:07] It's just so beautiful.
[17:09] So there's that and then...
[17:12] Through that comes, for me, came a lot of authenticity with myself, you know, just no bullshit, which is a really peaceful place to be.
[17:23] And then through that came really concentrating on gratitude, which is what I do, which is a bit of a kind of habit that I'm in now of telling myself what makes me happy, reminding myself basically.
[17:41] Yeah.
[17:42] And it's a nice thing to do.
[17:44] I'm not, things aren't always okay.
[17:50] And I don't mean on the external.
[17:51] I mean in my head and in my heart, I get tense and I get stressed out.
[17:58] But I'm very fortunate to be,
[18:01] in such a strong place, uh, as far as my family is concerned, my wife and kids and our love for each other, which is just incredible and beautiful.
[18:12] And, and also, you know, my love for myself, you know, um, I don't mind that term.
[18:19] You don't mind it?
[18:19] No, I don't mind it.
[18:20] I think it was just the way it was coming out felt a bit like an Instagram kind of the way it was coming out of my mouth, but the way you said it actually sounds a lot more.
[18:26] That's, that's, that's expectations you've got on how we're going to hear it.
[18:30] Yeah.
[18:30] So yeah.
[18:31] At the end of the day, that's none of your business.
[18:33] You know what I mean?
[18:34] And it's none of my business how you're going to hear what I'm going to say.
[18:37] I mean, we're obviously not going to be, you know, assholes about it.
[18:40] We want to take, we think about, we have empathy, you know, and we think about how we're doing things and how we're getting around with other people, of course.
[18:51] But I think if you're always, if you're saying, if you're speaking, if I'm speaking, you know, what I feel is,
[18:57] completely authentic, then that's the most important thing, you know.
[19:02] Yeah.
[19:03] Whether someone else understands it or not, because no one's ever going to understand it as the way you say it.
[19:10] You do.
[19:11] Yeah, or you or me or anybody.
[19:13] So...
[19:15] Don't worry about it.
[19:17] Yeah, yeah.
[19:18] I was struck by the way you said, there was a phrase you said before and the way you said it, the way you said that getting sober a year before having your first child.
[19:27] And if this is a question you don't want to answer, just tell me just flat out, but do you think you would have had a child if you hadn't have gotten sober?
[19:37] I don't know.
[19:37] I mean, it's impossible to say.
[19:39] I will say that I think I would have gotten sober if I had had a child.
[19:43] Absolutely.
[19:44] I cruised around, I partied and I had a lot of fun for a while and it got pretty, it was also pretty toxic and then it'd be all right and you're just kind of spinning plates.
[19:53] But I always knew that I wanted to be, I didn't want to be that around if I ever had kids.
[20:02] Yeah.
[20:03] You mentioned gratitude before.
[20:04] I'm interested in the things that spring to mind when you're practicing gratitude.
[20:09] What are the first things that pop into your head?
[20:11] My kids, my wife and myself, and then my gift of creativity and music and the opportunity to be able to give that gift away.
[20:25] I got a message from someone –
[20:29] The other day, whose kid is non-verbal but sings along to my music.
[20:35] Jeez.
[20:36] You know, so it was really humbling.
[20:39] So that's what I'm thankful for.
[20:41] I've never heard anyone in listing off things that you're grateful for.
[20:46] Of course, kids, partner, make sense.
[20:50] I've never heard anyone say myself as part of that.
[20:53] I feel like I'll remember that.
[20:57] Made Josh uncomfortable.
[20:58] Oh, my God, Instagram.
[21:03] I feel like I'll remember that because that is a very –
[21:06] It's a very nice thing to hear and a good reminder.
[21:10] Well, you know, and I don't want to just talk about sobriety or whatever for the whole thing, which we're not, which is good.
[21:17] But, you know, when I was running, you know, you're not running from anyone else.
[21:22] You're running from yourself, you know, when you're affected like that.
[21:29] Sobriety is just a byproduct of that authenticity for me.
[21:38] So I do have myself now and it feels good.
[21:43] I'm leaving sessions now.
[21:45] When I started writing this record and I've been writing a lot of music since,
[21:50] You know, I leave sessions now and when I was 14, 15 years old, we'd stay after school and have the jam room and I'd ride my bike home and I'd just be so excited and I'd feel so good and I'd have goosebumps and just endorphins and just like... And then it was a long time before I felt that again and that's what I feel now since writing this record.
[22:15] everything else since.
[22:16] So that's that arrival.
[22:17] Is that the difference?
[22:18] So almost back, you know.
[22:20] Almost like the difference between drinking and not drinking.
[22:22] Is that what you mean?
[22:23] Like you get the buzz because you're sober?
[22:26] Is that what you...
[22:28] Well, I think I've got the authenticity because I'm sober and I'm sober because I have the authenticity.
[22:34] You know what I mean?
[22:34] So it's like what kind of, what beast do you want to nourish?
[22:39] Do you want to nourish the hiding and the destructive, self-destructive?
[22:48] And self-destruction is about control, right?
[22:52] It's about you doing something bad to yourself yourself
[22:57] So before anyone else can, that's what self-destruction is.
[23:02] We took so much work and a lot of hard work and it's, um, to, to stop the momentum of where things were in my, in my life and my career.
[23:10] And I was just so unhappy.
[23:13] with my career, you know, for so long.
[23:16] And to stop that and move it in another direction, that's another fucking mission.
[23:24] And then to then start that up again.
[23:26] The way you're talking about yourself now has a wonderful amount of self-worth in there.
[23:34] Did you, would have you, say, 10 years ago, imagined that you could get to a place where you had that kind of self-worth?
[23:40] Yeah.
[23:41] Yeah.
[23:41] It was always there.
[23:42] I've always had it.
[23:44] Um, I've been, um, shy to show it and to acknowledge it maybe even, even just to myself maybe, but I've always known how beautiful I am.
[24:04] And, um,
[24:06] Yeah, I've always known how talented I am and how beautiful I am and how much I have to offer, how beautiful my gift is and I've always wanted to share it with as many people as possible.
[24:21] But it's hard, you know, when you do that because then it's sort of, you know, I don't think ego is the worst thing in the world.
[24:28] But when you just, when it's just like, when it's sort of, when that sort of becomes the main thing rather than actual confidence.
[24:35] You know, ego isn't confidence.
[24:37] Okay, that's the other thing.
[24:39] They can often be seen as the same thing or sort of bedfellows or whatever, but ego is not confidence.
[24:46] I mean, ego is a front.
[24:50] It's a husk.
[24:52] Unless there's something in there, then that's all it is.
[24:57] Now, what's confidence?
[24:59] For me, confidence is what is in there.
[25:04] So when you get, when everything gets burnt to the ground and, you know, you go through something really difficult or whatever it might be, and what's left, who's left, who's returning text messages, who's, you know, all of that stuff, and what's left of you and everything.
[25:22] Well, it's all that was ever there in the first place.
[25:27] Before you said something that I thought was really beautiful when you were talking about being an artist and you've always known you're an artist, even when you were a kid.
[25:35] How did that sort of manifest as a kid?
[25:37] How did you know?
[25:38] What was that experience of creativity as a child and what are your memories of it?
[25:44] Well, at school I was, I'm dyslexic, so it was difficult.
[25:49] You know, I was the last person to finish copying off the board and, you know, I knew that I couldn't read as well and I knew that I had difficulties with it.
[26:04] And I'm a writer now, so go figure.
[26:08] But I knew I was smart and I knew that I was clever.
[26:12] And knowing that I was a musician and knowing that I was creative and that I was good at it was something that I was...
[26:23] You know, music and creativity have always been a rock for me throughout my whole life.
[26:30] It's something that has just always been a part of me.
[26:33] So that's what that means when I say I've always known that I'm an artist, you know.
[26:39] I think I had a, you know, there's nothing better than a good teacher.
[26:43] And I had a teacher when I was little, Stefan or Stephen Ingleby, you know,
[26:51] at Errol Street Primary, now North Melbourne Primary, and he was, he wore all black and he was the arts teacher and he was tall and he was a bit over the top.
[27:02] And he told me, he said, you are an artist.
[27:05] You know, he'd see me do things and he'd just go, ah!
[27:09] And you know, when you're a kid and even now a person, when you get that sort of praise, I mean, it's, it's something that really meant a lot to me.
[27:19] And I think having a difficult time with certain aspects of school, it helped me really lean into what I knew I was good at and what I knew I wanted to do.
[27:33] Do you have any, just very quickly, do you have any advice?
[27:35] I mean, for people listening who find themselves in the eye of the storm of whether it's addiction or alcohol, whatever it is, for people listening who are currently in the place you were,
[27:46] Yeah.
[27:47] Do you have anything that, I mean, you probably get contacted by people who, in that very situation, what do you say to those people?
[27:52] Is there anything that you... Well, I won't say what I say to those people, but I do have advice is just stop the bullshit.
[27:59] I was at rehab and I was staying at home and it was Monday to Friday, so it was like 9 to 5, which is the only 9 to 5 I've ever had, by the way, is rehab, you know.
[28:09] And I wanted to talk about that.
[28:13] It pays shit.
[28:13] It was a month.
[28:14] Yeah, it cost a fortune.
[28:17] And...
[28:18] I was asked one day if I went to a meeting the night before and I said that I had and I hadn't.
[28:23] And two minutes later, by my counsellor, and two minutes later, I just went up to him and I said, listen, I told you that I'd been to a meeting last night and I hadn't.
[28:31] I said I had, you know, in my mind, for his benefit.
[28:35] People-pleasing, what he wants.
[28:39] And that was it.
[28:41] Wow.
[28:42] That's awesome.
[28:42] Ever since then.
[28:45] The light bulb.
[28:46] Stop the bullshit.
[28:47] Yeah, stop it.
[28:49] A, no one cares, right?
[28:52] No one cares whether you went or not to said meeting, you know, or whatever it might be in any particular individual's situation.
[29:04] The only person you're hurting is yourself and depending on people's circumstances, that may or may not be hurting other people.
[29:16] Just stop it.
[29:17] It's hard though.
[29:19] It's difficult.
[29:20] It's self-esteem.
[29:21] You're putting up this shell and this husk.
[29:25] You know, it's like I said it before, spitting plates, you know, and you're just like, oh, well, everyone's seeing this go, so it doesn't matter that this one's dropped and over here, you know.
[29:35] You know, no one cares.
[29:38] It's bullshit and you can be happier.
[29:43] It's just about...
[29:46] honesty with yourself not with anyone else beautiful yeah well thank you man this may seem like a strange segue but as you've been speaking about writing creative in the creative creativity in the creative process I've been wanting to ask you about something and it's certainly something you hear a lot of and that's the importance of mindfulness and presence for our general mental health and
[30:12] But it seems to me that creativity and then also that act on the stage, being creative on stage and creating that, that requires an incredible ability to be in the moment and to pay attention to what's going on in that specific time.
[30:26] Is that something you have ever had to work on?
[30:29] Is it just something that's come naturally or is it something that you've found that sometimes it's not there, that you're not in, like you struggle to find that?
[30:36] Yeah, I mean all of those things, yeah.
[30:42] You know, sometimes you're singing a song and you're thinking about the next three songs, thinking how long has it been.
[30:48] But then you hit a particular part of the chorus and you remind yourself to be in that bit and it feels good.
[31:00] It certainly happens a lot more now that I'm able to sing how I want to sing and taking care of myself.
[31:07] I mean, I...
[31:10] I look how I want to look, I'm happy with that.
[31:14] You know, you get tagged in a photo and you think, oh, that's good, that's nice, you know, which helps.
[31:19] I mean, I've sort of been up and down with my health over the years and sometimes I haven't liked how I've looked and had a lot of things around that.
[31:28] I was always really big as a kid, getting to like, you know, 135, 140 kilos as a teenager.
[31:35] So, you know, there's a whole, you know, that's another, that's a whole nother show, you know.
[31:39] Yeah, yeah.
[31:40] A lot of things have come along with that.
[31:43] So, I mean, I've been, I think I've been smaller than I am now, but not as happy.
[31:50] And, you know, I look great now, you know, and I'm really happy about that.
[31:53] But also being able to sing how I want to be able to sing.
[31:57] So all that is just the physical side of things, which is so important, particularly as a singer,
[32:02] And that's not to say that it's being big or being thin or anything like that.
[32:08] It's just when I say healthy, I mean, it's good to have my cholesterol under control, of course, but I mean healthy, you know, emotionally and mentally.
[32:25] I agree that you look good because when you said before, I don't usually put myself on the front cover, I was thinking if I look like you, my face would be the front cover of everything I do.
[32:34] So I agree.
[32:35] Well, that's a nice thing to say.
[32:36] I think that was sort of a part of it over the years is I've never wanted to, and it drives my manager crazy, I've never wanted to do things that I feel like I would be expected to do.
[32:47] I don't want to do what would be the obvious thing to do because I want it to be interesting or, you know, I want to... You go that way, I'll go this way, you know.
[32:57] And it sort of might have been masked a bit as trying to be a bit more interesting or a bit more of an individual.
[33:05] But I think... And I think that is a part of it.
[33:07] But what was also a part of it was, you know, being pretty shy about it, you know, and being...
[33:15] So big as a kid and being aware of that, you know, I was always very self-conscious of it my whole childhood.
[33:22] And then it was like I turned sort of 20 or 21 and I was –
[33:28] You know, people were paying attention to me in that way for what felt like the first time.
[33:35] And it was...
[33:36] In which way, sorry?
[33:37] Like music?
[33:37] Well, people... No, the way I looked.
[33:39] Oh, right.
[33:39] You know, because I lost all this weight.
[33:42] And, you know, I became...
[33:44] I was sort of the big kid and then I was the guy in his early 20s who was thin.
[33:51] And I always knew that I was handsome.
[33:54] And I always thought if I did get thin that it would be good.
[33:59] And, you know, it was from an aesthetic point of view and people started to pay more attention to it and I actually got a lot more shy, you know, and it also kind of –
[34:09] coincided a bit with making records and getting on radio and, and all that kind of stuff.
[34:15] And you got more shy in your twenties.
[34:17] Yeah, I did.
[34:18] Yeah, I did.
[34:19] I know.
[34:20] That would have been a strange experience as your career started to kind of explode.
[34:23] Well, I think that was a part of it as well.
[34:26] Right.
[34:26] So much attention.
[34:27] I think so, yeah.
[34:29] And I think where I could sort of mask it or deflect it as a teenager and be the kind of class clown a bit and all of that kind of stuff.
[34:38] Makes sense.
[34:41] I think I just got a bit tired of that and I just started.
[34:43] You know, by the time I was in my 30s, I mean, I just stayed at home.
[34:47] And it was great.
[34:49] Handsome at home.
[34:50] Just handsome at home.
[34:51] That sounds like some kind of album.
[34:53] That's the next record.
[34:54] Handsome at home, yeah.
[34:57] Write that down.
[34:59] This is maybe a really strange question, but I'm interested to know, like, I don't have kids, but I do spend a lot of my time trying to be creative.
[35:09] So I really resonate with...
[35:11] When people talk about the joy of solving a creative problem and, you know, figuring it out and like coming up with the thing, it's like, it's just the most electric feeling.
[35:21] But I obviously can't relate to the equivalent of how it feels to be a dad, have kids.
[35:28] But I just wondered whether you have any thoughts on, not that you can compare the two or would even want to, but...
[35:36] I don't know, like what are there similarities between the feeling, that electric feeling of like performing live or recording something or solving something creative and having that great feeling that you get from creativity and then the feeling you get from the special moments you have as a dad with kids?
[35:53] No, not for me, I don't think.
[35:55] Completely different.
[35:56] I mean, that being said, I mean, it's all the same thing.
[35:59] It's all just this one big beautiful life.
[36:03] that I have.
[36:05] Yeah.
[36:06] It's just beautiful.
[36:08] I mean, mate, I go to a writing session with one of my best friends who I've got so much respect for and there's so much mutual admiration and mutual respect between us.
[36:22] We're both really good at what we do.
[36:26] We walk in and something doesn't exist at 10 in the morning.
[36:31] And then I get home at four in the arbor and something exists and it's beautiful.
[36:36] And I put it on and my kids dance to it.
[36:40] So far out.
[36:41] That's a pretty nice circle.
[36:43] Incredible.
[36:44] And that's a Wednesday.
[36:47] So I'm really lucky.
[36:48] I'm really fortunate.
[36:49] And it was always beautiful.
[36:53] I was not at peace.
[36:56] I was, my counselor said to me once, he said, you know, what they think is none of your business, which is sort of what I said, which is exactly what I said to you before, which I hope wasn't too blunt or abrupt or weird or anything, but it's just like, it's just, it's none of your business.
[37:12] what they think, what they think, what they say, whatever, you know.
[37:15] And I've felt like over the years that some people have been, said some things about me or thought some things about me and sometimes fairly, sometimes unfairly.
[37:23] And it's done my fucking head in and it's been hard.
[37:27] But then when I heard that and I sort of knew that, and I guess we all know that, right?
[37:30] But then when you just, when you start to put that into practice, then it became a lot more peaceful.
[37:35] Yeah, the word that keeps coming into my mind is authenticity and the way you were talking about authenticity before.
[37:42] I can only speak for myself here, but I feel like the more authentic I've been able to be to myself, the easier it's been to not care what other people think.
[37:54] but when I was trying to be something that I wasn't or trying to mask stuff or whatever that was when I cared more about what other people think which is kind of paradoxical because I would think if you told me all you have to do is be as authentic as you can then you'd be like well that's really fucking scary because then what if people don't like that but then when you do it you don't really care as much
[38:16] It's like you can't argue with the truth.
[38:19] So it's like if you just tell the truth and just be your true self, people can criticize but it almost like doesn't affect you as much.
[38:27] It's like, well, I can't do anything else.
[38:29] This is legit.
[38:31] There's a photo of Earth taken from...
[38:36] I think it was Jupiter's orbit, right?
[38:40] And, you know, I could be wrong, but it's a fucking long way away, right?
[38:44] And it's this beautiful little star that looks like a star, you know.
[38:50] Don't worry about it.
[38:51] You know what I mean?
[38:51] Yeah.
[38:52] You know, that's where we are.
[38:53] That's everything we know.
[38:54] It's this table.
[38:55] It's, you know, and it's beautiful and it means everything to us, of course.
[39:00] And it's as beautiful as we're able to have it.
[39:03] And there's good days and there's bad days.
[39:05] There's all of that stuff.
[39:07] Yeah.
[39:08] But it's the end of the day.
[39:09] I mean, there's a line that I was really proud to write and it's taking a bit from like a George Harrison thing and he took it from his teachings that he...
[39:21] that he sort of devoted himself to in his later life.
[39:26] All things will pass and be forgotten.
[39:30] Which sort of sounds like, oh no, but it's like, no, that's fine.
[39:33] It's beautiful.
[39:35] Comforting.
[39:35] It's like, you know, build your statues, whatever, you know, go for it.
[39:41] Yeah.
[39:41] You know, this is, we're just here for so long.
[39:43] And in the grand scheme of things, the earth is just here for so long.
[39:48] I think if we're just a bit nicer to ourselves, it'll be easier to be nicer to each other.
[39:55] Things are hard enough.
[39:58] Buy the album.
[39:59] Buy the album.
[40:01] Be nice to me.
[40:02] Buy the album.
[40:03] Can I ask you one more question?
[40:05] I don't know exactly when this will be released, but really topical right now is the voice to parliament.
[40:10] And I'm really fascinated in your, where you sit with that, how you feel around that whole, everything that's happening right now.
[40:17] Yeah, well, to be honest, I don't really pay much attention to anyone else, really.
[40:27] Again, in a very peaceful way.
[40:29] I know what I think as an individual, and I'll be voting yes.
[40:34] I mean, basically, we're dying.
[40:38] People are dying, and they have been for a long time, and there have been...
[40:47] Decisions being made that haven't been the right ones.
[40:53] And this is an opportunity to have First Nations perspective and guidance in that decision making.
[41:02] So that's what it is.
[41:04] It's about having that guidance, which I think is extremely important.
[41:10] And at the end of the day, we're dying.
[41:13] Our kids are dying and people love their kids.
[41:17] And people care about other people's kids.
[41:21] So it's as simple as that.
[41:23] And I think the way, again, not that I've paid much attention to it, but from the little I've seen of certainly the no campaign and the misinformation, they call it, the lies and the type of rhetoric being told that the yes campaign is calling you a racist if you vote no to make people defensive and scared, it's appalling.
[41:52] You know, simple, we're dying and this will help.
[41:58] No one's trying to come for your fucking barbecue.
[42:02] No one's trying to take your fucking apron with a six-pack on it.
[42:06] People are fucking dying.
[42:09] It's really fucking serious.
[42:11] And they're fucking just like going back and forth and it's all this meh, meh, meh.
[42:14] And it's appalling and it's immature and it's lethal.
[42:18] That's it.
[42:21] Beautiful, man.
[42:23] Thank you, mate.
[42:25] I just feel very privileged to be sitting here with you today.
[42:29] Oh, I've had a nice time too.
[42:32] Phew.
[42:35] No, thank you, Dan.
[42:36] Lovely, lovely, lovely to meet you.
[42:38] I hope everyone does buy the album.
[42:41] Me too.
[42:42] And I hope they vote yes.
[42:44] But do whatever you think is right, you know.
[42:47] Thank you, Dan.
[42:48] But it is right to buy my album.
[42:50] There's one thing you do.
[42:53] You're a racist if you don't buy it.
[42:56] What are you guys laughing at?
[42:58] You didn't laugh.
[42:59] What are you laughing at?
[43:01] Awesome.
[43:02] Thank you, mate.
[43:04] I gotta keep on my face.
[43:15] Well, I hope you're all buying his album right now.
[43:20] Seems like the only option really, doesn't it?
[43:22] Yeah.
[43:23] And if I could add one more thing, and I hope you're all voting yes as well.
[43:26] Yes.
[43:26] Yes.
[43:27] Absolutely.
[43:28] Good thing to hope.
[43:29] I did enjoy, well, enjoy is not the right word, but I felt a lot when he was talking about why he's voting yes.
[43:39] I really felt that.
[43:40] Yeah.
[43:42] We had an episode come out a few weeks ago now with Dr M, and the title of the episode was Other People Matter.
[43:51] And I just, you know, there's nearly a million Aboriginal Torres Strait Islander people in Australia who their life expectancy is nowhere near that of white people in this country, and the current system is not working for them.
[44:10] 80% of Indigenous Australians will be voting yes.
[44:13] It was an idea that came from Indigenous people.
[44:18] And I mean, I was always a yes.
[44:20] But to me, I really, other people matter.
[44:24] There are a million people in this country who are really doing it tough.
[44:28] And because other people matter, we should be giving them a voice.
[44:33] Yeah.
[44:34] I mean, it's sort of you either seek out information or you don't, and you kind of want to find out more or you don't.
[44:44] I think for some people, it's just like such an easy decision, and some people, it's less so.
[44:48] I was speaking to a guy recently, his First Nations guy, and I didn't ask him permission to talk about him on the show, so I won't say his name, but he's a prominent person.
[45:00] you know, indigenous guy.
[45:03] And, and he said, and he was talking about, and he said, he put it pretty simply, and this isn't going to resonate with everyone, but the way he put it was just feels right.
[45:14] Just feels right.
[45:16] And,
[45:18] And that really resonated with me where it's like, yeah, it does.
[45:25] Sometimes you really, really do need logic and explanation and reason.
[45:29] And that is all there if you go and look for it, of course.
[45:32] But then for some people, and I feel like it's sort of like maybe an uncool thing to do.
[45:38] But for me, I'm in that camp where it's just like...
[45:41] A simple emotional reason is actually really helpful for me, which is that when he said that, I was like, yeah, it does feel right.
[45:49] Now, that feels right to me.
[45:51] It's not an objective feeling.
[45:54] But when he said that, I was like, yeah, it does feel right in the way that so many other things that we've got over the line in our history have just felt right and felt particularly right years later.
[46:07] Yeah.
[46:08] Yeah.
[46:08] Yeah.
[46:11] I'm struck by the, there's been the throughout.
[46:17] This year, I've often been thinking back to the Redfern address that Paul Keating gave in the early 90s.
[46:25] And there's this incredibly powerful, if you haven't watched this space, I think it's written by Don Watson and Paul Keating.
[46:34] And it's one of the most powerful speeches I've heard.
[46:37] For some reason, I don't know about you guys, but there's this thing in my mind of like,
[46:42] American presidents and Americans do great speeches and like these iconic moments.
[46:48] And I often think that we don't have many, but this is one of them.
[46:52] This is an incredible work of writing.
[46:56] And the words that keep ringing in my head a lot of the time is this,
[47:02] statement that Paul Keating makes that it was us, meaning non-Aboriginal Australians, who did the dispossessing, us who stole the children, us who did the murdering, us who did the raping.
[47:13] And it was us who did that and our failure to imagine it being done to us.
[47:20] which I find such a powerful sentiment.
[47:23] And I sort of said this in the episode with Brooke when- Brooke Blurton.
[47:27] Brooke Blurton a few weeks ago that after- but I guess to elaborate a bit more that after sort of 230, 40 years of-
[47:40] awful, repeatedly awful treatment of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people, they're asking for input or a voice on their future.
[47:52] Yeah.
[47:54] It just feels, what kind of a country are we if we say, nah, we were doing it pretty well already, so we still know what's best.
[48:04] Yeah.
[48:05] So, there's many reasons why I'm voting yes, but that's the sort of narrative that keeps playing over in my mind.
[48:10] That all resonates with me in a big way.
[48:13] The other thing that resonates with me was, it was just a meme I saw the other day saying, I'm voting yes for whatever reason, but also this feels like it's something that could have been sorted out just with an email.
[48:23] And I was like, God, it's so true.
[48:25] Surely, like, giving a voice to envision as people should have been an email from, I don't know,
[48:33] Anthony Albanese to someone saying, hey, also, can we just make sure we give him a voice?
[48:37] Oh, cool, nice, cool.
[48:38] We'll do it, done, thanks.
[48:39] Yeah.
[48:39] Rather than dragging, I mean, I do want to say, I can't even begin to imagine what it's like to be an Indigenous person in Australia right now, to be going through hearing people explaining why they're not or why it just must be so incredibly painful and bringing up so much stuff that we have put them through already.
[48:59] And so, yeah.
[49:00] of course for a yes vote, but I also, yeah, we're thinking of indigenous people out there who have had to put up with the shit over the last couple of months because it must be awful.
[49:08] Well said.
[49:09] And, of course, we wouldn't be talking about this today without Dan Sultan.
[49:14] So thank you, Dan, so much for coming on and talking about your struggles and your career and everything, but also talking about the yes vote because it's given us an opportunity to talk about it now.
[49:27] And then his passion and just that moment really...
[49:33] I don't know if it came across for people listening, but it really shifted the mood in here in a way which was just so powerful.
[49:41] Sometimes it almost brought for me like laser focus on what's really being talked about.
[49:48] It was because there were a few moments in that discussion I thought where things, like when he talked about his advice to people who are recovering or working through addiction, I thought really struck a chord with me.
[50:01] But especially on that vote stuff, it really, it's a lot of bullshit out there on the issue and a lot of stuff being thrown out there.
[50:09] But when to hear him just narrow it to a point that people, kids are dying pretty laser focus on what really matters.
[50:19] And it's just like a, it's a, it's a reminder that this is, this is real.
[50:23] And sometimes it does sort of like require seeing the emotion in someone's eyes to truly understand what this means above, which sits so far above the,
[50:36] general like discourse, like just general like opinions, who's right, who's wrong.
[50:44] Yeah, sometimes like it really, really, it does a lot to like look into someone's eyes who really feels the result of this decision.
[50:54] And it stops being about like, how well can someone debate another person?
[51:00] Yeah.
[51:01] And starts being about like, oh, this is like a real thing with real consequences that have been happening for a long, long time.
[51:07] And this is an opportunity to take like a step, you know, just a step in a positive direction, which is going to help people.
[51:16] And obviously, as Dan said better than I could say, you're not a racist if you don't see the same way as we do.
[51:24] Yeah, exactly.
[51:25] We're not judging anyone for not having the same opinion as us, yeah.
[51:29] Exactly.
[51:29] So, it's a decision that you make for yourself and vote accordingly to how you see things.
[51:36] But I just think I'm glad that we were able to – well, that's how I feel anyway.
[51:41] and it's yeah that's how I'll be yeah and it's only three mics here and we all happen to say yes so unfortunately that's just the way it is for everyone Bridget's a yes as well so is George it's fine not him though clarify that M was a yes well thank you all so good to see you guys again thank you Dan Sultan we'll see you next time
[52:17] Hugh, it's Ryan.
[52:19] This is going to sound really strange, but I'm in your house.
[52:26] Sorry, long story short.
[52:27] When we finished recording, I just started walking home like I would normally do.
[52:31] And I was walking and walking and really thinking about it.
[52:33] And before I knew it, I was...
[52:35] walking into your house and I got really freaked out until I looked down and I realized that, oh no, I'm wearing Hugh's shoes.
[52:46] I'm wearing your shoes, right?
[52:48] So when we put our shoes back on after recording, we must have accidentally swapped shoes and your shoes just started walking to their normal home like they would normally do, right?
[52:57] Which is your home.
[52:59] And now I'm really concerned to be honest, because now I can feel your shoes trying to
[53:03] walk to the Aths track and run a lot, which obviously, well, you know me, I would love to avoid that if possible.
[53:10] So can you give me a call as soon as POS so I can get my shoes back and not go for a run?
[53:20] That would be great.
[53:21] Thank you, Hugh.
[53:22] It's Ryan Shelton from the podcast.
[53:25] To call back, press 2-2 to replay make.
[53:34] The Imperfects is hosted and produced by Hugh Van Kylenberg, Ryan Shelton and Josh Van Kylenberg.
[53:39] Our executive producer is Bridget North East.
[53:41] This episode is filmed by Andy Poole and edited by George Martin.
[53:44] The Imperfects is not a licensed mental health service and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, treatment or assessment.
[53:51] The advice given in this episode is general in nature, but if you're struggling, please see a healthcare professional or call Lifeline on 13 11 14.
[54:01] I'll be alright.
[54:03] You set the flame by the doorway.
[54:06] Let it be my light.
[54:08] You set the tone and I'll be alright.
[54:12] You set the cold.
[54:13] I couldn't burn.
[54:15] Can I be a fascination?

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