# James van Cuylenburg - Love Your Wonky Bricks

An episode of [The Imperfects](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1476501557), 9 Jul 2023, 1 h 26 min.

Audio: https://enrichment.soundstack.com/4vjqq8/episode.flightcast.com/cwumb0lv2y67b7wokub3fx7r.mp3

Other than being a Clinical Psychologist (with a child specialisation), Dr James van Cuylenburg is not only Hugh and Josh’s cousin, but in Hugh’s opinion, he’s the greatest piano player in the world - which provides zero context for this incredible episode. James covers so much in this 90 minutes that it’s almost impossible to sum up here. Everything from the development of our kids today, screentime issues, the cost of ambition, the importance of self-compassion and James’s own experiences with bullying and how it motivated him to study psychology. Among MANY other topics. This episode is not just about kids. It’s about the human experience and why we should all acknowledge and love our “wonky bricks” and make the most of our short time on this floating ball we call earth. PRESS PLAY ALREADY! To learn more about James's work, or book into see him or another psychologist at Engage One on One, follow this link: https://bit.ly/3MV947W To learn more about Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs, follow this link: https://bit.ly/3MVgNTC

## Transcript

[0:00] My name is Andy, and I film the videos at The Imperfects.
[0:04] I'm the son of English immigrants, and I am grateful to call Australia home.
[0:08] We at The Imperfects acknowledge the Wurundjeri people of the Kulin Nation as the traditional owners of the land on which this podcast was recorded, and extend our respects to their elders past and present.
[0:19] I am inspired by the strength and endurance of the world's oldest living culture, and we draw on and pay homage to their traditions of story when we share stories on our podcast.
[0:30] The Imperfects is not a licensed mental health service and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, treatment or assessment.
[0:37] The advice given in this episode is general in nature, but if you're struggling, please see a healthcare professional or call Lifeline on 13 11 14.
[0:46] G'day, or as us Brits say, grand today.
[0:51] And welcome to the Academy of Imperfection, where experts in their field share their wisdom on the subject of imperfection.
[1:02] Today, if you felt there weren't enough Van Kylenbergs on this show, this one with clinical psychologist Dr. James Van Kylenberg is for you.
[1:13] Our traumas inform everything, right?
[1:16] So yeah, there can be a pressure we put on ourselves to recover from trauma, to put it behind us, to say I'm done with that now.
[1:23] But I think it's much more helpful to say that is an integrated part of my story and it's informed all the choices I've made since.
[1:29] Yes, it's painful sometimes, but I work with that pain, but it's also informed so many good things I've done.
[1:34] So put down your pint of sausages and join students Hugh, Ryan and Josh as they welcome yet another brilliant family member to the table, Dr. James Van Kylenberg.
[1:51] Once again in the Academy of Imperfection and weird to be the only person in the room who's not a Van Kylenberg, including our guest.
[2:03] That's, I mean, that could happen again, but this seems like some pretty rare air.
[2:08] It's exciting though.
[2:09] It's exciting.
[2:10] We are joined by Josh and my cousin, James, Dr. James Van Kylenberg.
[2:16] And it is, when you say rare, I was thinking the same thing because like, I love all our guests.
[2:24] The love I have for this guest is off the flipping charts.
[2:29] And he does not say flippant much.
[2:33] He's not flippant with flippant.
[2:35] He's not flippant with flippant, that's true.
[2:37] Yeah, Dr. James Van Kylenberg.
[2:39] This is...
[2:41] I mean, these guys have been talking about this for a while.
[2:43] They're excited.
[2:44] And so I am, by proxy.
[2:46] The first thing I'm thinking about is that when growing up at family functions, we always used to get kicked off the family table and moved into the other room because there's too much giggling and the adults got frustrated with the childish jokes.
[2:59] And I just feel like that's the situation again.
[3:02] Same energy at the moment.
[3:04] It's true.
[3:04] It's so nice to be here.
[3:05] Thank you so much for having me in.
[3:08] And it's true.
[3:09] When we grew up together, I think laughter is the defining quality.
[3:12] If I think back, my memory of us growing up together and visiting you guys, some of the happiest times of my life, I would say.
[3:19] I agree.
[3:20] And it was absolutely defined by laughing, so much so that we got in trouble for it.
[3:34] and one by one, we were just laughing so much.
[3:36] One by one, we got booted off the table.
[3:37] For laughing too much?
[3:39] I don't know why.
[3:41] I've never understood the issue with laughing too much.
[3:43] I feel like we need more context here because at the moment it sounds like your family kicking you out for having too much fun.
[3:49] Yeah, we kind of like this.
[3:50] It was family dinner, and there was a need to hold a responsible conversation, and we just kept making it silly.
[3:56] Yeah.
[3:56] Yeah.
[3:57] But it was like, it was just a weird thing because we all ended up in the same room.
[4:00] All giggling in there.
[4:02] With no food though.
[4:03] Yeah.
[4:03] Okay.
[4:04] So, Dr. James, so you're not just here because you're related.
[4:09] People were probably wondering what sort of doctor?
[4:11] Why are you here?
[4:13] So now I know you're a psychologist, but maybe it might be better, James.
[4:18] Do you think better for James to explain?
[4:20] Or do you want to do it here?
[4:22] I had written down.
[4:23] Oh, well, let's do it then.
[4:24] You do it then.
[4:24] It's very quick.
[4:25] He's an adolescent and child psychologist and he's the greatest is what I'd written.
[4:30] You wrote that down.
[4:33] Maybe I will do it.
[4:39] Yeah, James, you're more than welcome to come and do all the bios, actually, for the guests.
[4:46] So, yeah, I'm a doctor of clinical psychology with a child specialization.
[4:51] And for the last 15 years or so, I've been practicing, mostly in private practice.
[4:55] I set up a business with my...
[4:58] A father-in-law called Engage One-on-One Psychology and we work in schools but also in clinic space.
[5:04] So that's with kids and with adults.
[5:06] But the last four years, as my family lived on Phillip Island, I was the chief psychologist, chief?
[5:11] We don't call ourselves chiefs.
[5:12] The head of psychology.
[5:15] It's like up until very recently, if anyone was in business, I'd just call them.
[5:19] If they were like the head of the company, I'd call them the boss.
[5:22] It's like my lingo of business is still very much set in primary school.
[5:26] Right.
[5:27] So head of wellbeing at a school and that was a prep to 12 school.
[5:31] So that's been really interesting, but we've just recently moved back to Melbourne.
[5:34] So I'm now working back in the private practice space again.
[5:37] Awesome.
[5:38] On top of that, I've also written down here, he also may be the best pianist in the world.
[5:44] Oh my gosh.
[5:45] That's also what I think.
[5:46] In the world?
[5:47] Yeah.
[5:48] You did say maybe.
[5:49] Yeah, so I don't know for sure, but I'm confident.
[5:52] I'd be amazed if you knew for sure.
[5:54] I've tested them all out.
[5:55] I didn't write much of a bio, but I did a lot of piano research.
[5:58] I listened to millions of people play piano.
[6:01] I went and saw James do a Billy Joel tribute concert two weeks ago, and it went off.
[6:09] I mean, it was something else.
[6:10] There was like a... You took time out of your classical musical club schedule to...
[6:15] I haven't told the boys that yet, so you're in trouble now.
[6:18] Billy Joel's a bit too rock and roll for those boys.
[6:20] Don't use it.
[6:20] I hope that I knew that.
[6:22] Anyway, and there was a smoke machine playing, but to me, I swear the smoke was coming from the keys.
[6:28] Oh, my God.
[6:30] It was just...
[6:32] Anyway, just a fair approach to that.
[6:33] So when is the greatest hype guy performance of all time?
[6:39] I told you I love him dearly and I do mean it.
[6:40] But when- Can't wait for Josh's buildup.
[6:45] So when I originally asked James, I think it was early this year if he'd come on the
[6:51] He straight away, instead of saying yes, he just straight away sent back a piece of music that he'd written in that one second.
[6:57] So I'm going to play very quickly for you.
[7:00] So Gratitude, Empathy, and Mindfulness being the three pillars of the Resonance Project.
[7:04] So we'll play him for you very quickly.
[7:05] This is what he sent back straight away.
[7:06] This is Gratitude piece.
[7:07] Gratitude.
[7:12] Whether you're a girl or whether you're something in between, you need that gratitude.
[7:20] It's a perfect attitude.
[7:23] With your gratitude.
[7:25] Okay, so that's gratitude.
[7:28] That's great.
[7:29] Rolling in a very minty, healthy way.
[7:35] That's excellent.
[7:37] So there's gratitude.
[7:38] He then straight away sends through empathy.
[7:41] So here's empathy.
[7:44] This is a lovely piece, this one, with a bullet, I think.
[7:46] There was no plan.
[7:48] You just played it and started singing this.
[7:51] You and me, empathy.
[7:55] Can't you see that's the way to be old?
[8:00] We've got to learn to care for your child.
[8:05] I'm going to cry.
[8:08] It's beautiful.
[8:09] It's amazing.
[8:10] So there's that.
[8:10] And then he sent through mindfulness.
[8:11] I thought, well, this will be a real peaceful number.
[8:13] I can't wait to just...
[8:14] This will really put me into a Zen space, this one.
[8:16] This is mindfulness.
[8:28] It's so good.
[8:29] I think you are the best piano player in the world.
[8:32] That's excellent.
[8:51] so that was sent through within a minute of me asking just like you just sat down and played so anyway there's my wow that's a stitch up I had no idea you were going to do that but I'm happy to share them anyway well James that is all we've got time for that is so nice to have you in it's been great
[9:08] As a psych, I'll get on to as a psych.
[9:10] So obviously we can't see you professionally as a psychologist with our kids because it's not professional.
[9:16] It's not cool in the psych world to do that.
[9:18] It's not cool in the psych world.
[9:20] I think that's what it says in the teaching.
[9:21] Just for all of you listening on the streets, it's not cool in the psych world.
[9:27] And so I, but there have been times when Penny and I, any parent will write this when you're just at your wits end and you're very, you just hit a dead end, you don't know what to do.
[9:36] I have called James before to say, and he knows it's like I'm at my wits end, but I'll call and say what's going on.
[9:42] And every single time I have done that.
[9:45] You do everything.
[9:46] Everything I've learned on this podcast about how you can be there for other people, how you respond to other people when they're not doing too well, you do it.
[9:55] Like I remember I went on for something about something for ages and I was quite – I hadn't had a chance to – well, I described quite a few people and no one really quite responded the way I was hoping for.
[10:03] And I said it to you and you said to me –
[10:06] I stopped because I'd pretty much run out of breath.
[10:08] I was exhausted from explaining what was going on.
[10:10] And you said to me, that must be so hard for you and Penny.
[10:14] That must be so hard.
[10:15] I hope you're doing okay.
[10:16] That must be incredibly hard.
[10:17] And I just cried and cried and cried because I just need to be validated first.
[10:22] And I hadn't had that from so many professionals that I'd been talking to about this thing.
[10:25] And you were just incredible.
[10:27] And I remember thinking, this is so bloody unfair that we're cousins because I want to see it.
[10:31] I want to be able to go and see him.
[10:32] So, yeah, I just know the person you are, that you are incredible at what you do, and I'm so overjoyed to be able to share your wisdom with our audience.
[10:45] That's extremely kind.
[10:46] Thank you so much.
[10:47] And it's always a pleasure, of course.
[10:49] If either of you call, you know, needing a chat, that's always easy, even if it is uncool.
[10:54] I'm happy to talk to you any time.
[10:57] Sometimes it's cool to be uncool.
[10:58] Right.
[11:01] And so I think really what I'd love to do is to start this conversation by asking you a question I've actually never asked you before, but I have wondered about a lot.
[11:12] But when we catch up, we're too busy reciting Monty Python, so we don't really do it.
[11:18] But why did you get into the work that you are currently in?
[11:22] Yeah, so that's something I did think about a fair bit before coming on today.
[11:27] And I think I've heard all of you listening to these episodes be vulnerable.
[11:32] And this was something I thought perhaps as well as talking about some mental health in schools, which I guess is the topic we're going to approach today.
[11:40] But my story and the vulnerability I felt that I could share does tie in pretty neatly to how I became a psychologist in the first place.
[11:48] My journey to be a psychologist, I experienced quite a lot of bullying from about the age of, I'd say, 8 to 14 when I was at school.
[11:57] And it wasn't something that at the time I was necessarily able to sift through and understand.
[12:03] And there certainly weren't support mechanisms at the school.
[12:07] So I think that's something that we can talk about later, but that's where I think we're making a huge amount of inroads in schools now.
[12:13] The approach to that sort of stuff, the counselling, the culture of schools is really shifting.
[12:17] But at that time, it was very much a kind of stiff upper lip attitude.
[12:22] And, you know, you learn the hard way in the playground kind of situation.
[12:26] But I realized as I was thinking about this podcast, I've never talked about it before.
[12:30] Never talked about my experiences with bullying with anybody.
[12:33] So I thought it would be a nice chance perhaps to do what you guys do and do the vulnerable thing on this podcast.
[12:40] And by way of talking about mental health in schools, I could tell my story first.
[12:44] Yeah.
[12:45] Because I remember being told as kids that you were having issues at school with that in primary school and then early secondary school.
[12:52] Yeah.
[12:54] But I didn't know how to, you know, I'm two years older than you.
[12:57] Well, no, a year older than you, sorry.
[12:59] I didn't ever really know how to talk to you about that or bring it up with you.
[13:04] But it absolutely broke my heart and I hated it so much.
[13:07] And I remember often thinking, I wish we went to the same school so I could somehow make that not happen.
[13:12] Because I was like, well, I'm a year above him, so maybe I could help that.
[13:15] I never said anything to you as kids growing up, but I thought it whenever we used to hang out, I always used to think about it.
[13:19] It just used to make me so unbelievably sad to think about it.
[13:24] Look, I was lucky in the sense that, as you know, I had a beautiful family growing up in a really safe, supportive, loving environment.
[13:30] And so that was protective.
[13:33] And you guys as well.
[13:34] You know, our extended family was so loving and so supportive.
[13:38] It did protect me through those years.
[13:40] But school itself was not great for a while there.
[13:44] And...
[13:45] I think it might be helpful, I'm sure a lot of people listening have experienced bullying in different forms, but we could perhaps think about the different kinds of bullying that people experience.
[13:54] So clearly there's verbal and physical bullying.
[13:57] These days there's cyber bullying as well that kids and young people have to navigate.
[14:02] But there's also kind of discriminatory bullying in terms of gender, sex, whatever else that we might discriminate.
[14:12] But then I think there's also relational bullying, right, which is within our relationships, whether it's at home or at school.
[14:17] And it might be kind of subtle power dynamics or people leveraging their social power against you.
[14:22] And that's what I experienced.
[14:23] So my bully was the most popular kid in the class and had incredible social leverage.
[14:30] And could turn the room on a dime.
[14:33] So you wanted to be his friend.
[14:36] And I was a lot of the time.
[14:38] But on a whim, he could quite easily decide, I don't like you anymore.
[14:43] And then not just hurt you in subtle or not subtle ways, turn your friends against you as well.
[14:50] And isolate you, you know.
[14:52] So that's what I experienced quite a bit.
[14:54] And as I started to kind of reflect on this, because I really honestly have not thought about it for a long time.
[14:58] I tried to, you know, as I guess we'll get to once I kind of found my self-confidence again, sort of year 11 and 12, I tried to sort of not look back.
[15:07] But I think it's helpful to look back.
[15:09] So that was in grade, started in grade four, is that right?
[15:11] Yeah, three or four.
[15:12] Yep.
[15:13] And then it went through to when you're in secondary school.
[15:14] So did that bully go to the same school?
[15:17] Yeah.
[15:17] By strange coincidence, this person went to my kindergarten, primary school, first high school and second high school.
[15:23] Oh my God.
[15:24] So we went all the way through together.
[15:27] It does have a happy ending of sorts though.
[15:29] So remind me to tell you that once we're done.
[15:33] But yeah, it was very challenging.
[15:35] So I thought of a couple of stories, if that might be helpful to sort of illustrate.
[15:40] And in a sense, they might sound a little bit superficial or like they don't mean too much.
[15:45] But when you're a kid, of course, your school is your world.
[15:48] And that's all you know.
[15:51] That feels like everything.
[15:52] And it also feels so important, the things that happen there.
[15:55] So if you feel isolated at school...
[15:59] it can flatten you.
[16:00] And I'll get to the story in just a moment, but I think it's helpful also to think about from a developmental point of view, which is obviously what I studied, thinking about the kind of big ideas about life and our sense of safety and security and lovability, likability.
[16:15] These ideas...
[16:16] are really... We learn those early, right?
[16:19] They're like the foundation stones of our personality and sense of self.
[16:23] And in a developmental framework, sometimes you can think about like a pyramid of self, how those big ideas, we sometimes call them schemas, like they build your sense of self.
[16:33] And if there's kind of a fracture or something that goes wrong in one of those building those foundation stones...
[16:39] it reverberates through the structure, you know, the structural integrity of what we put on top of it.
[16:45] So that can be really helpful in terms of thinking about when I work with my clients, where are the chips in the foundation stones or which ones are reverberating upwards?
[16:53] So it's going back through your past and yeah.
[16:55] Yeah, to find those really critical ones because we never actually, our child self never leaves us.
[17:01] They're still there.
[17:02] Those vulnerabilities we felt as a kid, the way that we felt when we were younger,
[17:06] It's still there.
[17:07] Is what you're talking about, is that like literally schema therapy?
[17:10] Part of it, yeah.
[17:11] Yeah.
[17:11] So, yeah, the schemas in schema therapy are the other foundational beliefs that really influence.
[17:18] They're very, very strongly held.
[17:20] We internalize them very deeply and they're hard to shift.
[17:25] What would be an example of one of those beliefs?
[17:27] So let's think about like attachment theory, you know, and our bonding to our primary caregivers.
[17:32] Yeah.
[17:33] If you have a difficult relationship with a primary caregiver, you might not learn that I am safe in this world.
[17:41] I'm lovable or I am okay.
[17:44] You might develop a, well, I have to earn love.
[17:47] I need a transactional kind of attitude towards earning love.
[17:52] Maybe I need to prove myself to my parent in order to earn their affection rather than just giving it freely.
[17:57] Or I'm not interesting enough for them to get their attention, so I need to earn it some other way.
[18:04] So that might lead to a kind of overcompensating dynamic that someone, you can see it through their life and the way they interact in their relationships.
[18:10] Yeah.
[18:11] but it reverberates back to that initial primary caregiver where they've internalised an idea, I'm not enough on my own.
[18:18] And is that sort of maybe a difference between like a kid, depending on their relationship with their primary caregiver or their environment at home, you either, and this I guess does reverberate through life, you either take love for granted or you don't.
[18:36] And I feel like I know people, like I'm someone who,
[18:40] you know, had a very good, safe, supportive upbringing.
[18:46] And so I do kind of take it for granted more often than not that I will be loved, generally speaking, not necessarily by like strangers, but by people that are...
[18:57] people that I know, whereas I know people who don't take that for granted because their relationship with their parents or something was not good.
[19:04] Yeah, that's it.
[19:05] Well, it's just helpful, I think, to go back to those early childhood experiences and think about what beliefs did I internalize about life, about myself, about the world, and how do they impact the way I live now?
[19:16] It's just a helpful way to deconstruct some of our...
[19:19] So what did your experience with bullying do to your...
[19:22] At that time, I was a very sensitive kid and, you know, had grown up in this loving, you know, home full of humor and music.
[19:31] And life was, I was a bit naive, I think, to how cruel life could be.
[19:36] So it really hurt.
[19:38] It hurt deeply that you could be rejected or isolated or left out or feel alone.
[19:44] Yeah.
[19:44] So that at that time, it bottomed out my self-worth and self-esteem in that context.
[19:49] I think I struggled for many years in terms of that social confidence to be my true self and to have confidence to speak out and that I would be liked, that I wouldn't be rejected.
[19:59] It's just heartbreaking.
[20:01] Yeah.
[20:01] And I saw that, you know, repeat over and over again.
[20:04] Now, I was really lucky.
[20:06] My circumstances shifted.
[20:08] Perhaps we'll get to that in a bit and I'll just talk about the stories first.
[20:11] What do you mean that repeated over and over again just when you said that?
[20:14] Like as in the same pattern kept coming back for you that you felt?
[20:17] I think, okay, how do I want to phrase this?
[20:19] I think sometimes you can look for rejection, right?
[20:22] Once you've suffered it once, you start to expect it and you'll act in a way that creates that self-fulfilling prophecy where it comes true.
[20:28] Right.
[20:29] So I would become extra conscious of the alpha in the room, the popular kid in future and would sometimes, I don't know, find myself acting in ways that would perhaps even lead them to bully me, you know?
[20:43] Like it would become a kind of,
[20:45] I don't know.
[20:46] It's hard to explain.
[20:46] That's interesting.
[20:47] Almost as a way to connect with them.
[20:49] I don't know.
[20:49] To play the role that you think that you should be playing.
[20:52] Yeah.
[20:53] Is it a bit like I have often had sort of issues with the way I look with my body?
[21:01] And if we were going to the beach or something, I would often jump in first with the first joke about my weight rather than wait for someone else to do it.
[21:08] Is it kind of like that?
[21:10] Absolutely.
[21:11] Yeah.
[21:11] But, you know, by even putting that out there, you're inviting others to critique you in that way, which might then reinforce that same idea in your mind and lead to that more vulnerability on that topic.
[21:22] Yeah, so, yeah, absolutely.
[21:24] So it's like a defense mechanism that actually reinforces the dynamic.
[21:30] Yeah.
[21:31] So, and, you know, it just created this sense that I'm not good enough in so many ways that I would play out in other ways and perhaps overcompensate for.
[21:40] Some of which led to some strengths, I would say, like the way in which we deal with our...
[21:44] vulnerabilities can lead to getting better in other ways.
[21:47] You know, I probably practiced the piano more because that was an area I felt confident in and, you know, as a result got really good at it.
[21:55] The best in the world, some might say.
[21:56] Some did say.
[21:58] Yeah, yeah.
[21:58] So there's that.
[21:59] I'm not even laughing.
[22:00] I'm just like, yeah, that's what happened.
[22:02] That is a fact.
[22:03] Sorry, I shouldn't laugh so much.
[22:06] So if I may, I'll just tell you some of these stories.
[22:09] So I remember one lunchtime, I would have been in grade three, so about nine years old maybe.
[22:15] The whole class was near the playground and this popular kid, the bully, decided to, this was on a bad day by the way, when he decided he didn't like me, he'd already made that pretty clear.
[22:25] We had three Jameses in our class and he decided he was going to hold a vote on who were the best Jameses.
[22:31] We were going to rank them.
[22:33] So he had, you know, he gathered the other two and he said, right, who thinks this guy is the best James?
[22:39] And, you know, that'd be a big cheer and bring people over to that one and did the same with the other and left me standing by myself as the worst James with the other two.
[22:47] I mean, I'm with the bully and the whole class over there with him.
[22:51] Or it felt like the whole class.
[22:52] It might have been 10 people, but that's what it felt like.
[22:55] And I just felt so judged and alone in that moment Even though it's just kids in the playground But then he invited that group to go and play soccer But not me So I was left by myself And I just remember I just went And there was this bush in the playground That kind of was like a cubby You could go inside it I just went in there and hid and cried The whole lunchtime Just feeling so isolated
[23:19] And if I reflect on that story, it's about like the most primal thing, you know, rejection and isolation and that vulnerability of abandonment, right?
[23:30] It goes to the core of that very...
[23:31] So it might sound like nothing, but it's not nothing.
[23:34] It doesn't sound like nothing.
[23:35] It nearly made me cry.
[23:35] It doesn't sound like nothing.
[23:36] So that was one that came to mind.
[23:39] I just...
[23:40] Yeah.
[23:41] Sorry.
[23:42] Yeah.
[23:43] The other was a couple of years later.
[23:45] So year seven.
[23:46] And by which time bullies have discovered even more tools they can use at their disposal.
[23:51] And this one really hurt.
[23:54] My best friend through primary school also went to my first high school.
[23:58] And this bully started to drive a wedge between our friendship because that was protective for me, obviously, and I think he saw that and decided he could leverage his power against it.
[24:09] The three of us went to play basketball at school on the weekend.
[24:13] You know, he'd climb the fence and play basketball.
[24:14] I don't know if you guys ever did that, but it was fun.
[24:18] And at some point in the play, the bully said to my friend,
[24:23] up to that time, best friend, they whispered something to each other.
[24:26] And I didn't know what it was and they were laughing.
[24:27] Then a couple of minutes later, they both said, oh, we've got to go, you know, time's up, time to go.
[24:32] So, and it was earlier than we'd said we were going to go.
[24:34] I was like, oh, okay, sure.
[24:36] So we all went our separate ways and I went to the toilet before leaving and then came out and realised they'd got back together, of course, and they were still playing.
[24:43] They were just trying to get rid of me.
[24:46] And again, that sense of rejection, seeing that they'd done that Horrific It was just heartbreaking and I cried all the way home So experiences like that, I don't remember many more But I know there were more But it just leads to that internalization of the idea I must be worthless There's something wrong with me But now I can look at it and see, I can see what he was doing And when you ask me why did I become a psychologist In part it was because
[25:11] I recognized as I grew older and healed from a lot of this stuff,
[25:17] there are so many kids who must feel that same vulnerability on so many levels.
[25:22] And as I said, I'm lucky.
[25:23] Like I never experienced prejudice or, you know, racial intolerance or so many other forms of abuse that kids suffer or bullying.
[25:31] So in a sense.
[25:32] Yeah.
[25:32] I'm just so sorry that happened to you.
[25:34] Yeah.
[25:34] It's just, it's awful and heartbreaking.
[25:37] Like if I heard that about someone I didn't know, I would find that heartbreaking.
[25:40] But to hear about someone I love so much, it's just, it's awful.
[25:42] Yeah.
[25:43] Yeah, it was awful.
[25:44] But, and look, I'll tell you another thing that was hard about that at the time, because the structures weren't there to support kids really.
[25:51] We hadn't learned enough yet about how to take this stuff seriously and the mental health epidemic, I guess, that we have.
[25:58] Uh, my parents were so worried about me and wanted to help me so much, but I refused their help.
[26:04] It's like, if you get involved, you're going to make it worse.
[26:06] Yeah.
[26:07] If you speak up about this, my life's going to be terrible.
[26:10] I have to, you know, I needed to win this guy's approval.
[26:14] It's, it's just, thanks for saying that.
[26:16] That's a big thing to say.
[26:18] And, um.
[26:20] I just, I don't know.
[26:21] I wonder whether or not now, without wanting to jump too far ahead, but are you able now with all of your, everything you've learnt and all your perspective now having worked with so many kids and families, are you able to have any empathy for the bully now?
[26:39] Absolutely.
[26:41] It's really important that we see bullying within the context of a person and why they do it.
[26:45] There's a reason why every kid bullies.
[26:47] And I held zero malice towards the guy that bullied me because he was a child and he was trying to work out his life and figure out where he was at in the social strata.
[26:56] And it's really confusing and it's really difficult.
[27:00] Yeah, I do want to tell you the ending of the story.
[27:03] Yeah.
[27:04] So in terms of high school, right, I got to year nine and 10.
[27:08] This was a selective entry school.
[27:10] And the general attitude at this school is you try your best and you do your best and you try everything and you try and get the most out of life.
[27:17] which is an environment I had not experienced before.
[27:19] But year nine and 10, I was still suffering low self-worth and low self-esteem, so I held back and was, you know, timid.
[27:27] But I got to year 11 and I realized, hang on, I've only got two years left of this opportunity.
[27:30] I want to see what I can get out of this.
[27:33] And I just came out of my shelf and just started trying everything and started to reap the rewards that come from putting yourself out there and trying everything.
[27:40] started to really build my self-confidence again and got involved in music and theater and all sorts of things.
[27:46] And that really worked.
[27:47] By the end of year 12, I just felt so much more self-confidence and this desire to get the most out of life.
[27:54] I really pushed myself.
[27:56] You're a school captain?
[27:57] Yeah.
[27:58] I'm sorry, Josh.
[27:59] I know that's a sore point.
[28:00] It's something you raised.
[28:02] I don't want to put too much emphasis on it for that reason.
[28:05] Sorry, no.
[28:06] I forgot to apologize.
[28:07] I brought it up.
[28:07] Very insensitive.
[28:08] Yes.
[28:09] We can talk about that one later.
[28:12] Yeah.
[28:13] But yes, it was very validating to become school captain.
[28:16] It felt good to be school captain.
[28:17] Yeah, it did.
[28:18] It felt great.
[28:18] I'm really happy for it.
[28:19] It's wonderful.
[28:22] Sounds great.
[28:23] Sort of like suggests that everyone else going for it wasn't as worthy.
[28:28] No.
[28:29] Quite honestly, I want to say as a caveat for Josh, it's absurd that you grew up in a family where your dad and uncle and brother and cousin were all school captains.
[28:38] That's not a fair scenario by which to judge your self-worth and it makes sense that you felt the way you did.
[28:44] Anyway, I just want to put that on the table.
[28:46] Thank you.
[28:46] But for me, within the context of having been a person with very low self-worth, getting to the point where that culminated in my peers and teachers going, you're the captain,
[28:57] It was quite incredible for me at that time.
[29:00] That is a movie.
[29:01] That feels like the end of a movie that seems impossible.
[29:04] Yeah, it did seem impossible.
[29:06] Yeah, it just was really gratifying.
[29:09] But Skip ahead 20 years and it's the reunion.
[29:14] And I show up to this thing thinking, I wonder if he'll be there because this bully of mine, we had very little to do with each other.
[29:19] Our lives went separate ways, which was quite intentional on my part.
[29:23] Yeah.
[29:24] But I was keen to reconnect with him after that amount of time and wanting to, I don't know, because during those years, I dreamt about him from time to time.
[29:34] I think these prominent people in our lives that have been quite significant, sometimes they do pop up in our dreams unexpectedly.
[29:40] And he'd been that character.
[29:41] I knew I hadn't resolved this.
[29:42] I knew my mind kept going back to it.
[29:45] So I felt like if I can talk to him, if I can have an adult conversation from a place of kind of maturity, maybe that will release me of that.
[29:53] Maybe that'll be the end.
[29:54] And it turned out that was true.
[29:56] So it was great.
[29:56] Like I managed to have a lovely conversation and just have a chat.
[30:00] And he was a really nice guy, actually.
[30:02] In that conversation with him, did you acknowledge any of, was it just you found peace in the fact that you were able to have an adult conversation and meet each other as equal, just humans?
[30:13] Or was there any discussion of the bullying or anything?
[30:16] There was no discussion of it.
[30:18] And in the off chance he's listening to this, I'd be very happy to continue this conversation.
[30:22] Just want to put that out there.
[30:25] But no, there was no discussion of that.
[30:26] It was more about me and my experience.
[30:28] I have no idea where he was at with all of that stuff, but it was very important to me.
[30:32] And it did create a sort of relief of sorts because I haven't dreamt about it since, you know, and that was a few years ago.
[30:40] So I'm not saying it's gone.
[30:43] Nothing's gone.
[30:43] As I said, our child self stays within us, but it was certainly healing.
[30:48] Thank you so much for sharing that.
[30:49] That's really, really, yeah, it's hard to listen to, but gosh, it must have been so hard to live through for all those years.
[30:57] It was, yeah.
[30:58] It was hard, but I was proud of myself when it got to the year 11 and 12, making that choice, and I guess that's something I'd like to encourage people listening in as well.
[31:07] It's, you know, no matter how vulnerable you feel, if you can make that choice to make that choice,
[31:13] Just embrace opportunities, embrace life, just get out there and get the most out of it as best you can in whatever way you can.
[31:19] I don't know.
[31:21] It's just, it gives you this opportunity to get positive feedback.
[31:24] Whereas if you internalize, if you retreat and try and hide from the world, it's only going to reinforce those negative ideas about yourself.
[31:31] Yeah.
[31:32] So before we move on, for parents out there who know, who are aware that their kids are going through what you went through and have probably found this quite emotionally challenging to listen to, what would you say to them right now?
[31:47] So I think it's really important, obviously, for parents to be talking to their kids about their emotional experience at school.
[31:53] Ask them what it feels like in their friendships and try and get them to label their emotions.
[31:58] So that's part of teaching emotional intelligence and building empathy, right?
[32:03] that that's more likely if we ask, how does it feel in that friendship when they say this or that, that might lead to richer conversations around what their actual experiences are.
[32:12] If you do become aware, there are some bullying issues, obviously.
[32:16] Sorry, so that first bit is about trying to find out if there are issues.
[32:19] Is that right?
[32:20] Yeah.
[32:20] Yeah.
[32:20] So just as a...
[32:22] You may not know, right?
[32:23] Because I probably as a kid would not have shared it unless until it got really bad.
[32:28] And then my parents could tell I was very upset.
[32:30] Yeah.
[32:31] I would have kept it to myself because I don't want them to do anything.
[32:34] Yeah.
[32:35] So it's really important that kids talk about this.
[32:37] So just practice, you know, in your language with your kids, label the emotion.
[32:42] get practice talking about what does it feel like.
[32:44] So how does your friendship make you feel?
[32:46] And this is when you're not sure and they might give you some clues or some insights that maybe everything isn't as good as they're letting on.
[32:51] Yeah, they might flag that, oh, today that kid did this to me, right?
[32:55] Oh, what did it feel like when they did that?
[32:57] You know, you're trying to look at what is the dynamic, how are they feeling, what's their sense of self, what's their place in that social hierarchy.
[33:03] because they're not going to be aware of those processes.
[33:06] They're just experiencing them.
[33:07] I guess the role of the adult is to help filter that and dissect it and look for what's helpful and unhelpful.
[33:13] So that's that first step.
[33:15] If you're aware of bullying, silence is clearly not the answer.
[33:18] All right, we need to talk about it with the child, but also with the school.
[33:22] And that's where the cultural shift that's happening in schools is so important, to create an atmosphere where, I want to say bullying is not tolerated, but bullying is understood.
[33:31] Bullying is part of the conversation.
[33:34] and it's something that the school takes seriously.
[33:36] So I would encourage every classroom teacher to be saying it up front if they're not already, right?
[33:40] If that's happening in this class, we're going to have a dialogue around it, we're going to support each other, we're going to look after each other.
[33:46] Don't let it be something that sort of happens in the shadows.
[33:48] Right?
[33:49] I guess the other thing would be when we're talking about bullies to have a person-centered approach, a holistic approach rather than a punitive one because that doesn't achieve anything, right?
[33:58] Just punishing a kid for doing, it's not going to have a positive outcome most of the time.
[34:04] the vast majority of the time to work with a young person on restorative justice, to work together on some sort of restorative principle, to create connection, to build empathy, to build compassion.
[34:16] These are the goals of a lot of the programs that are happening in schools now.
[34:20] It's a core part of mental health, as you know, Hugh, right?
[34:23] It's a core part of JEM.
[34:26] So that's something that I think is really going to help kids, but also teaching resilient strategies.
[34:33] How do we filter information that's coming in to know what's bullying and what's not?
[34:39] Part of the Australian experience is ribbing your friends, making fun of them.
[34:43] That's normal.
[34:44] But most of the time that's designed to build someone up, right?
[34:47] You might be making fun of them, but your goal is to make them feel better and included.
[34:51] And the laugh is about enriching them.
[34:54] But if it's targeted, if it's designed to make a person feel smaller or hurt them or ostracize them, that's what a child might need help to decipher what's the difference.
[35:07] Oh, I was just joking.
[35:08] Well, let's look at what was the intent behind the joke.
[35:11] Was it to uplift or to push down?
[35:14] And then of course, there's just what we've been talking about, the self-compassion, right?
[35:18] To be aware that kids who've experienced bullying, their self-confidence might be really low.
[35:23] So what can we do to build that up again in other ways?
[35:26] Might be to put that bullying in context and think about the great strengths or the connections I have elsewhere.
[35:32] I talked about earlier how my experience at school was to be kind of
[35:35] That felt like my world, you know.
[35:38] But then my parents did introduce me to another community group and that was really helpful.
[35:42] I went to a youth group for a while and made fantastic friends and didn't get judged at all.
[35:46] That became a real safe place for me.
[35:48] So I think having somewhere else other than school at some sort of community engagement community is really important.
[35:54] Yeah, that's really helpful.
[35:56] So the first step is to get the kids to express their emotions around friendship, to try and look for an in.
[36:01] And if it looks like there is an issue, it's involving the school and trusting that school is different to when you're at school.
[36:06] It's not the same.
[36:07] Yep.
[36:08] And a better place to support a child in that situation.
[36:12] And then beyond that, it's looking for ways to build self-esteem away from that environment.
[36:16] I probably should have said counseling, right, is an option too.
[36:19] So most schools now have access to counselors or you could go to an external psychologist or a counselor as well.
[36:25] It's great to get kids that have that experience of talking to someone outside of their known family or friends because it just provides this environment to be able to say whatever you want without judgment and with that confidentiality and understanding that you are safe.
[36:41] As part of you sharing that, it sounds like there's a link into why you do what you do as well.
[36:49] Absolutely.
[36:49] So I saw it as an opportunity when I was thinking about what I wanted to do in year 12.
[36:53] I didn't decide to be or to study psychology until near the end of year 12.
[36:56] Yeah.
[36:57] But I thought this is a chance, right, to go back and help kids like me.
[37:02] And I think a lot of people probably get into that area, social work, counselling, psychology, right?
[37:06] out of a desire to, in part, heal something in themselves, but also, you know, share whatever they've gained or learned with others.
[37:14] So that was certainly me.
[37:15] So that's why I studied developmental psychology, thinking I'll probably work with kids around that same age.
[37:21] And I certainly did for a while, but I would say my interests then, this could align with when I sort of felt like I'd healed part of that self within myself.
[37:32] My interest is now sort of more working with adults and couples and...
[37:36] But the developmental framework has never left.
[37:38] So I think that is such a helpful way of thinking about an adult, that we have this vulnerable child self inside us that still influences so much of what we do as an adult and filtering back down our adult experience to that vulnerable child self can be a really useful technique.
[37:55] So my mind's racing at the moment with what we, you know, what we try and get out of this next bit of time together because I feel like...
[38:02] In planning this in my head, I was thinking it was a lot of work with kids in secondary school recently.
[38:06] So we should talk about the issues that secondary school kids go through.
[38:09] Like what are the common issues that you're seeing and how do you help them?
[38:12] But also if now your interest is helping adults as well, I feel like it would be crazy not to talk about that as well.
[38:17] Yeah, I think it'd be great to spend a little bit of time on the school situation.
[38:22] It's such an important topic and it's where my last four years of experience has been.
[38:26] So I think that'd be great.
[38:29] So in thinking about that, I guess some of the things that come to mind, obviously, Hugh, you've talked about this a lot in your talks.
[38:37] I mean, the mental health stats are damning, right?
[38:40] They're really concerning about the number of young people that are experiencing anxiety and depression and other mental health issues.
[38:46] Yeah.
[38:48] But on the positive side, I think there is a bit of a mental health revolution happening in schools.
[38:53] Again, which you're kind of a part of.
[38:55] The Resilience Project is making a massive difference.
[38:57] It really is.
[38:58] But there are many other programs too.
[39:01] I think a lot of schools are embracing the idea of full cultural shift towards integrating mental health into education.
[39:09] These things are not inseparable.
[39:10] They are actually deeply tied together and they can't be separated.
[39:14] So if you're not working on the mental health of a young person, they're not going to learn well.
[39:18] And they're not going to thrive.
[39:20] So I'm seeing a lot of schools take that on board and integrate ideas like mindfulness into everyday activities, respectful relationships and relationships.
[39:31] celebrating diversity and so many things and just enriching counselling support in schools as well.
[39:37] It's so different now.
[39:40] And I just know the experience that I had must be so much more rare now.
[39:43] It's not gone.
[39:45] Bullying will always be a factor that we have to talk about and think about, but I'm seeing it change.
[39:50] And it's really rewarding to see that.
[39:53] So what's, from your point of view, what are some of the really common causes of anxiety and depression that you're, if we say they're two of the more common issues that kids are experiencing right now in schools, is it too hard a question to say what's causing those things?
[40:10] Many factors, of course, but if you think of the current generation, the most obvious thing that stands out is access to information via screens, technology, social media, and just the news cycle.
[40:24] I think kids' brains are absolutely overwhelmed.
[40:27] with information, it's too much.
[40:29] It's too much for adults.
[40:30] It's too much for kids.
[40:32] And I think the impact of that we're going to be seeing, you know, because tech has moved so fast, hasn't it?
[40:38] Like every year it's just progressing at a rate we can't really keep up with.
[40:43] And I think the cost of that emotionally and mentally we're still grappling with.
[40:48] Okay.
[40:50] So when parents come to you and say, what should we be doing about our screens and what should we be doing about devices?
[40:56] Do you have a pretty standard response or are you still trying to work out where you...
[41:01] I think I'm thinking about that all the time.
[41:04] But I do think if we just go from the premise that our brains are not designed to have access to everything everywhere all at once.
[41:11] You know, it sounds like a good idea to have every answer to everything in your pocket all the time, in theory.
[41:18] But there's only so much that we can process.
[41:21] And we're not evolved to handle that amount of stuff.
[41:24] So if you think about it just from an adult perspective, right?
[41:27] I hear you guys.
[41:28] I've heard your episodes about wanting to slow down and limit the amount, you know, you're doing at any one time.
[41:33] Well, that's what Ryan's doing now.
[41:34] Yeah, it's fantastic.
[41:36] You know, we have to think about a kid's brain, right?
[41:39] Up until 25, our brains are developing rapidly and taking on so much information, building those foundation blocks and that sense of self.
[41:48] But when you're flooded with information, if you think about what that does, it's not surprising to me that rates of anxiety are through the roof, depressions through the roof, that sense of feeling overwhelmed and scared and just unable to handle how much stuff there is.
[42:04] But what does it do?
[42:05] What does it do to our brain?
[42:07] Well, I think that, you know, by being overwhelmed, we can't process information very well.
[42:13] We don't have time to be bored and to use our imagination and think and fail, right?
[42:20] Let's go back to that, you know, grand time of like the 1980s and think about how simple your choices were.
[42:26] How many channels you had to watch?
[42:28] How many choices you had in a day?
[42:31] It was limited.
[42:32] You had some choice, which is healthy, but there was a clear limit and a boundary to what you could choose.
[42:40] And you had time to be bored because there just was not the option of constant dopamine hits into your eyeballs all the time.
[42:48] When you think about when we go to your house, the choice was, are we gonna watch the Holy Grail?
[42:52] Are we gonna watch Life of Brian?
[42:54] That was pretty much it.
[42:55] That was our choice.
[42:56] Like, kids these days are like, we can watch whatever, any show ever created, we can watch that right now.
[43:02] Yes.
[43:02] Like, that choice is almost kind of paralyzing.
[43:05] And it was just like, where do you even begin?
[43:07] I find that pressure now when I go to Netflix, it takes me half an hour to not choose something.
[43:12] And then I'd,
[43:12] Right.
[43:13] So if you think about a kid's experience and they have everything available to them, you know, they're just learning new skills and trying to figure out who am I, what do I want to do?
[43:22] You know, you learn that by trial and error, obviously, but I feel like they're expected, you know, the model that's shown to them is so fast.
[43:30] It's like kids move from one thing to another.
[43:32] I like this TV show, now this one, now this one.
[43:34] And if you like that one, you can just binge all 10 seasons in a day and then move on to the next thing.
[43:39] And their interests aren't staying in the one place very long, is what I would say.
[43:43] And I think that was different.
[43:45] I just think to me, like I was obsessed with something like, let's say Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles for two years.
[43:49] Yeah.
[43:50] Yeah.
[43:50] Because that was the show.
[43:52] Absolutely.
[43:52] In that era.
[43:53] And then when you become a teenager, then it becomes like an album.
[43:56] Right.
[43:56] And you listen to blood sugar sex magic for like a month or two.
[44:03] Yeah.
[44:03] Whereas now it's you try it and it's like, nah, and then you move on to something else.
[44:08] Yeah.
[44:09] But like, yeah, that is what I'm sort of trying to sort of re, not necessarily have the same interest for a long time, but yeah.
[44:17] Yeah.
[44:18] Yeah, the one thing, for those who haven't heard the episode, I'm doing a thing where I'm just doing one thing at a time where you can only do one thing at any given moment.
[44:27] It feels very strange a lot of the time.
[44:28] And I feel very bored a lot of the time.
[44:31] And I don't always do it right.
[44:32] Sometimes I succumb.
[44:34] But I'm noticing a change in my brain.
[44:39] Yeah.
[44:40] Yeah.
[44:41] So that's fantastic.
[44:42] But I think, you know, to your question about advice around screens, I think where possible, limit them.
[44:48] As simple as that.
[44:49] You know, like access to technology is great.
[44:52] I'm a big fan.
[44:53] I love technology.
[44:54] I think it's terrific.
[44:55] But just think about the vulnerability of a kid's brain to not be able to handle screens.
[45:02] that all the time.
[45:03] It's like we're creating dopamine addicts.
[45:05] It's just what we're doing, you know, giving them something that satisfies this huge hit because this amazing sensory experience of whatever it is, a game or a show or social media or something.
[45:16] It's colorful.
[45:17] It's edited, you know, in such a way, like you watch those YouTube videos where they cut out all the breaths.
[45:22] Yeah.
[45:23] So they never stop.
[45:24] It's just like information's
[45:26] What's that?
[45:26] They cut out the breath.
[45:27] Have you not seen that?
[45:28] No, there's just heaps of jump cuts on YouTube clips and vloggers and stuff.
[45:32] Yeah, so there's no breath.
[45:34] It's just information, information, information.
[45:36] And to be more engaging and win the attention war, they're yelling or they're flashing things on the screen.
[45:41] And that is a competitive space to grab your attention.
[45:45] And it's coming from everywhere.
[45:47] The more you talk, I already felt like I was doing it wrong.
[45:49] And the more you talk, I feel like there's too much screen time already for our oldest, who's three.
[45:58] But, yeah, so that's something I really need to work on as a parent.
[46:02] But it is hard.
[46:03] It's very hard.
[46:05] Yeah.
[46:06] But one thing I've noticed is like, is singling out a show a bad idea?
[46:10] I'm going to single it out.
[46:11] I hate Coco Melon so much.
[46:14] And so... No spoilers.
[46:19] Haven't quite got to it yet.
[46:24] Season five's great.
[46:26] No, it's really bad.
[46:28] And I was trying to work out why I hated it so much.
[46:31] And my son turns into a bit of a zombie when he's watching it compared to other shows.
[46:38] And Soph had seen a very quick, funnily enough, flashing Instagram meme about it, which is another thing altogether.
[46:46] But so sort of thing saying that it was, it's sort of there's something like Cocomelon for people that don't know is like just a song after a song after a song.
[46:53] There's no narrative structure.
[46:55] It's got really bright colors.
[46:57] It's very close.
[46:58] Yeah.
[46:58] Yeah.
[46:59] Very.
[46:59] Yeah.
[47:00] And it changes quickly to the next thing.
[47:03] And it occurred and they were saying how they're designed to be very addictive for toddlers.
[47:08] But also it felt like the difference between saying putting on any children's TV show that's got any kind of narrative to it, where there's a beginning, a structure and an end.
[47:20] He wasn't a zombie.
[47:21] I can sort of turn it off and he's ready to engage with the world.
[47:24] Whereas if you turn off Coco Melon, he's angry.
[47:26] Mm-hmm.
[47:27] And I realized that there's this, it's happening or it's like, it's already happening at like three years old, this content.
[47:34] Yeah.
[47:35] So anyway, it's just something I've noticed.
[47:36] Can I just give a quick anecdote just to support that as well?
[47:39] As you know, and you were there in the early years, I've been going to school to do talks for 14 years now.
[47:44] And when I say James was there with me, James wrote music early on that Josh and I would sing when Josh used to come with me.
[47:50] So it's all, yeah.
[47:52] And James and I did quite a few, I was going to say gigs, but talks at schools together.
[47:56] Giggs is not the word.
[47:57] What was your writer?
[48:00] Anyway, I have noticed for many years, in the last three, four, five years, I've been saying it's just so exhausting these days.
[48:09] This is a young man's game, young person's game, I should say.
[48:13] This is not for someone like me.
[48:14] It's exhausting these days.
[48:15] But I've come to realize that's not what it is.
[48:18] It is so much harder now to maintain kids' lives
[48:23] at any year level's consultation.
[48:25] I do hour-long talks and back in the early days, I had no problems.
[48:28] I would have long dramatic pauses of silence and I would hold them and I would, you cannot do that anymore.
[48:34] Well, that's exactly what I'm kind of getting at.
[48:35] And I think the job for teachers is almost impossible at the moment.
[48:39] They are competing with kids who have, you know, these dopamine hits all the time.
[48:45] And that's what they want.
[48:47] But that creates this kind of,
[48:49] I don't know, dullness, right?
[48:51] In kids where their imagination is dulled, their motivation can be dulled because there's this quick and easy fix all the time available to them.
[48:59] I really worry about it.
[49:01] And I think that it's a massive...
[49:03] I think it's associated with the rise in anxiety and depression among kids because their sense of...
[49:09] I don't know, balance and attention and ability to think and process is limited.
[49:13] And I don't want to dramatize this too much, but also that makes me worry a lot because I do feel like this generation is the one that's going to have to, I don't know, save the world.
[49:21] And they're not getting the same level of problem solving, creativity, time and space that we got growing up.
[49:28] I guess it's the expectation of what it's like to be entertained is what I'm seeing for kids.
[49:35] Their normal experience has become so fast and the content and the amount of information they receive.
[49:41] How can any teacher or presenter compete with that when all you're doing is talking?
[49:47] You might be the most engaging teacher in the world, but you can't compete with that.
[49:51] Yeah.
[49:52] It's kind of, it's a little bit scary just for, I'd say, just art in general, like the future of art.
[50:00] Because, I mean, you know, I've been writing things for...
[50:06] I don't know, 15 years or so, and sort of right through this really big shift.
[50:11] So when I first started, YouTube didn't exist yet.
[50:15] And there was some basic social media, but nothing addictive really yet.
[50:20] It was still very early days and to the point where we're at now.
[50:23] And to be able to write something of a longer length, you need patience and you need to sit through...
[50:34] the stages of not knowing what to do.
[50:36] And you need to be able to like sit through that and wait for the idea to come or to put out a bad idea and then like sit with it and go like, that's not quite right.
[50:46] You know, there's a process of writing for example.
[50:50] What I'm now having to do is use like particular app, like writing apps that force me to keep writing.
[50:59] Because if I have a moment of like, oh, that's not good, I'll so quickly turn to like with a touch of a button, I flick to the browser or YouTube and I just start watching something and I just worry that for myself but just for people in general, I just worry that the quality...
[51:19] of just art in general will decline because people are so distracted.
[51:25] Yeah.
[51:26] Well, they're profound ideas, right?
[51:28] The kids saving the world and the quality of art.
[51:30] But I guess just from my point of view working with kids, it's about this development of sense of self, right?
[51:35] Sorry, I went quite big.
[51:36] Yeah, no, you did.
[51:37] I don't know what to say to those ones.
[51:42] Come on, James.
[51:45] I guess in my practice, it's about the enrichment of a life.
[51:49] And if I think about my life, right, I think, well, I chose piano, right?
[51:55] You chose cricket, you know, you chose film, among other things.
[51:57] You've got comedy, you know, you've got a lot more than that, you guys, but they're things that you've kind of gone, that's my special thing.
[52:04] But those took hours and hours of work and dedication and long-term goal setting.
[52:10] I think it's harder for kids now to start that process, to invest in something early because they're so used to the quick hit.
[52:17] And I worry if that was me.
[52:19] I know I've got issues with addiction and the dopamine hit of the screen.
[52:25] I struggle with it.
[52:27] So if that was me when I was a kid, especially given the stuff I told you about with the vulnerabilities at school, I think I would have lost myself in it.
[52:33] And were that the case, I may have missed out on all of the things, all of the enrichment that piano has given me and singing and music through my life if I hadn't dedicated myself to that enough.
[52:43] And that's a great worry I have for kids too.
[52:45] So on that, would one of your strategies be for parents, because I know a lot of parents listening to me are, yeah, yeah, absolutely.
[52:51] I'm on board.
[52:52] I agree.
[52:52] I understand all this stuff.
[52:54] And yes, I agree, I need to limit screen time, but they're then going to get into a fight, a lot of them.
[53:00] I was like, well, to do that, I have to get into a fight here with my child and be their enemy and he's going to cause more problems.
[53:08] It's one of the strategies to help them lock on to something they might potentially be good at, something they might love and help them to explore that.
[53:17] Yeah, balance, right, is so important.
[53:20] Tech is here to stay, clearly.
[53:22] It's an important part of our lives.
[53:23] It's not going anywhere.
[53:25] But if we just keep in mind how much information a brain can process at any given time, right, that it's too much for us.
[53:32] By the way, I think the news is really problematic and one strategy I'd suggest is just turn the news off.
[53:38] Even those alerts that come on, you know, you're watching Lego Masters or something and then the news comes on, it's catastrophe.
[53:44] Right.
[53:44] It's like horrific murders, blah, blah, blah.
[53:47] It's all of the horrible stuff.
[53:50] And it's not filtered for kids.
[53:52] So that's something we try and do at home is mute the news as much as possible.
[53:56] When the ads come on, you just... Just full stop.
[53:59] I don't think the news is helpful.
[54:02] Russell Brand talked about that.
[54:03] He says, it's not the news, it's some news.
[54:05] And it's designed to make you afraid.
[54:09] And he's right.
[54:10] So that's just one tip.
[54:12] But...
[54:12] Yeah, the other would be with regards to just the amount of information that a kid – so they need balance.
[54:17] They need time to be quiet.
[54:18] They need special interests.
[54:20] They need time outside, time with their friends, exercise, et cetera.
[54:24] And so screen time has to fit within a balanced lifestyle.
[54:29] Like a balanced diet?
[54:30] Yeah, absolutely, for the brain.
[54:32] So as long as it fits, as long as you're kind of constantly looking at that balance and trying to regulate it with your kids, that's the thing.
[54:39] Now, if your kids get super angry at you because you suggest that, they're probably addicted to it.
[54:45] Or they might say, but that's the only place my friends catch up.
[54:48] And that might be true, that the guys are coming home and jumping on Fortnite or whatever it is, and they chat to each other while they play.
[54:55] No problem with that.
[54:57] but if that's your only form of social interaction and you're not going out to play basketball as well, then you've got a problem.
[55:04] And that's going to lead to some of the issues we're talking about.
[55:06] And I think the anxiety and depression issues will start to show.
[55:10] There was one thing you said before, which I think is worth saying again, is that, and I just wanted to ask it and wonder whether it's like a,
[55:17] not mantra, but sort of like guiding North Star for you, but that you focus on the enrichment of a life.
[55:24] I just reckon that is because, you know, we were talking about changing the world and the future of art.
[55:29] They are big things, but at the core, I just think that's just such a nice way to approach it, the enrichment of a life.
[55:38] I know it just really struck me.
[55:39] Yeah, it's less overwhelming than trying to solve climate change.
[55:42] Yeah.
[55:43] Yeah.
[55:43] I do like that I wouldn't necessarily say That's my therapeutic mantra It's something I try to do for myself I would say But in therapy If I could say I think my mantra Tends to be more about Compassion You know And an unconditional positive self-regard For my clients And
[56:01] But also like a humility and compassion.
[56:03] So I think that Ben Crow talked about this when he talked to you, didn't he, about the need for self-compassion is just so, so important.
[56:10] And be gentle with yourself.
[56:12] Another cost of having that influx of information on the brain is the unbelievable pressure it seems to put on you all the things you could and should do with your life.
[56:23] and who you could be.
[56:25] If you are interested even mildly in something, you can look up that on YouTube and you'll get all of these experts showing you how amazing they are at it instantly, which is not something we ever had to deal with before either.
[56:36] And I think that could be quite deflating for a lot of kids to go, what's the point?
[56:40] I'll never get to that level.
[56:42] and they're out at the beginning.
[56:44] So I think that self-compassion is just, that's really my guiding principle in therapy more than enrichment, I would say.
[56:53] Enrichment's a goal, but to start with that, how do we be gentler to ourselves?
[56:57] Because we're so critical of ourselves.
[56:59] So I find the screens thing very challenging.
[57:03] I've had issues – and as you've said before, you've got issues with it, I've got issues with it.
[57:07] And I totally understand everything you're saying.
[57:11] That we're – I don't really know what the question here is.
[57:14] It's more of a point, I guess, and connecting to ideas you've made.
[57:18] But –
[57:20] I find it really hard to implement in day-to-day with all the other challenges of being a parent.
[57:25] And then you get this guilt of like, Jesus Christ.
[57:27] Like I'm imagining this morning like, geez, Charlie got up at like 6.15 and he went straight to the TV and was there for like an hour and a half.
[57:34] And I'm like, what damage have I done to his brain today?
[57:39] And so I guess I just wanted to, and maybe it's bad of me to say this about myself, but that thing about compassion and self-compassion I think is...
[57:49] I guess I just want to reiterate that and connect the two ideas because I think I could be doing a lot better as a parent in that space, but also feeling nothing but shame or guilt over it's not going to make me any better at it either.
[58:00] It's so great that you've brought that up because you can guarantee so many people listening are feeling that way.
[58:06] Because let's be honest, parenting is really hard and it's exhausting and you have this thing that you know will engage your kid instantly.
[58:13] So we're addicted to it too, right?
[58:16] As parents in a range of ways because you're exhausted and this is easier.
[58:21] Yeah.
[58:22] And look, when we were growing up, that wasn't an option.
[58:25] So the kids might have been more willing to go and play quietly, whereas now they want that intense stimulation.
[58:32] So yes, we need to, of course, we need to be careful about how much we're doing that.
[58:35] And what I said about balance remains true.
[58:38] That's the goal, right?
[58:39] We have the balance.
[58:41] But we can't escape the fact that technology is there and we need to be careful with the guilt thing, like you said.
[58:46] It is part of our lives.
[58:47] But just when you're reflecting on that and going, okay, I'm not going to do that.
[58:50] I might be allowing a little bit too much there.
[58:52] That's good.
[58:52] You know, then just to try and say, okay, well, let's see what we can do different tomorrow.
[58:56] You know, try something else.
[58:59] And some days you'll have the energy for it and some days you won't because parenting is very tiring.
[59:04] Yeah.
[59:05] We talked about depression, anxiety in schools.
[59:06] So screen, I don't think it was a surprise to many people screen time is causing issue, but it's nice to know why it's causing an issue, I think.
[59:13] We've talked about limiting screen time and then providing with other choices as well, helping to explore those things.
[59:20] So other issues for kids that you're seeing you wanted to talk about or can we pep you with questions about adults?
[59:26] So look, it's a big, big topic.
[59:28] Something I did wonder about talking about, and it's relevant to what's going on in schools at the moment, is there's a lot more kids identifying as gender diverse in schools at the moment or in that space and transitioning.
[59:42] And schools are having to work out what do we do in this space and how do we manage it?
[59:47] And I would say it's a huge topic.
[59:49] So it could be one that you want to address on a full podcast sometime rather than a subcategory on this one.
[59:56] But it's certainly something that I'm observing as a really identifiable change that's happened in the last few years where more and more kids are now feeling comfortable to open up about what they're going through and talk about it.
[1:00:09] So if I'm going to say anything on this topic, it would be I'm really proud of those kids.
[1:00:14] And I think there is such an onus on all of us to support them and encourage them and to get better.
[1:00:21] In this space, because everything that we know about the mental health stats for kids who have traditionally been unsupported or unwilling or unable to speak out is that their mental health statistics are terrible.
[1:00:34] You know, far higher on the suicidal thinking or suicidal thoughts.
[1:00:38] If they're unsupported.
[1:00:39] Unsupported.
[1:00:39] Unsupported, that's right.
[1:00:41] But we're seeing really encouraging results from kids who are coming out, owning their transition, able to really be their true selves.
[1:00:49] And those that go through that process, you know, it's remarkable how positive that can be.
[1:00:56] So, sorry to jump in, but so if you had a family and kids came in and the parents maybe want the kid to talk to you because they want to identify as a different gender or as no gender and the parents think that you can talk to them out of it or, you know, something like that.
[1:01:13] That's happened.
[1:01:14] What would be the, from your observations, I know it's probably very specific to each person, but what would be the reasons that the parents might want to come talk to you?
[1:01:24] If it was that, if it was, can you talk them out of this, it would be fear-based, right?
[1:01:29] From the parents.
[1:01:30] Yeah.
[1:01:31] And it could be their upbringing and their values that are...
[1:01:34] that they're scared for their young person, that if they go this way, life's going to be really hard and really difficult and unfair for them.
[1:01:43] So I'm sympathetic to that.
[1:01:45] It's, you know, it's trying to come from a place of love, but ultimately...
[1:01:49] What we know is that, yeah, it's causing more.
[1:01:52] So if we can draw alongside our young people and just give them a voice and support what they need, right?
[1:01:59] Just remove the discrimination that is apparent or has been apparent for so long.
[1:02:04] It's going to make such a difference.
[1:02:06] When people are asking why, well, I think it's because of what we talked about already.
[1:02:10] The mental health revolution that's happening.
[1:02:13] Kids are now feeling more comfortable to speak out.
[1:02:16] It's not that these things weren't happening before.
[1:02:18] It's just now suddenly there's this opportunity culture of openness where things like bullying or gender or any form of, you know, any minority is now suddenly like, hey, I want to talk about my story and say who I really am.
[1:02:32] And that's exciting to me.
[1:02:34] And so it's a privilege to be in the space and, you know, supporting young people to do that.
[1:02:38] I had a conversation with a deputy principal from one of the schools that we work with and I asked him how his year had been.
[1:02:42] He said, yeah, it's been great.
[1:02:43] He said, I've helped three kids transition this year.
[1:02:45] So it's been a great year.
[1:02:47] And I thought, gosh, that is just so wonderful to hear, isn't it?
[1:02:50] Like those three kids who, if they went to school and we all went to school, the world would look very different for them.
[1:02:57] And they're probably discovering, going through this stuff now.
[1:03:00] Yes.
[1:03:00] And wishing they'd been able to do it when these kids are.
[1:03:03] Mm-hmm.
[1:03:03] I mean, this is a very, very difficult topic and it's a complex one.
[1:03:06] Like even in the news in the last few days, there's been big topics, big discussions around transgender people in the sports space, for example.
[1:03:14] I had a client this morning, a non-binary client, and they were talking to me about this, just how difficult it is to see this played out on the national stage.
[1:03:23] You know, something that's so personal to them.
[1:03:25] And being politicised.
[1:03:26] The politicisation of something that's so deeply personal and how hurtful that is.
[1:03:31] So I guess the only reason I really wanted to raise that today was just to say I think we just have such a responsibility to show love and openness and acceptance and validation to those people.
[1:03:42] Totally.
[1:03:42] A beautiful message.
[1:03:43] Thank you.
[1:03:44] So I feel like we're going to need to get you back to cover a whole lot more topics.
[1:03:48] But I don't – I just –
[1:03:50] Our listeners, it's an adult audience and some of them are not parents.
[1:03:52] And I do want to talk about you obviously working closely with adults now.
[1:03:56] It's a space that you've moved into on a one-on-one therapeutic basis.
[1:04:01] So what are you seeing?
[1:04:03] It's a very difficult question.
[1:04:05] What are some of the big things that are coming up for adults?
[1:04:08] Well, everything is coming up for adults.
[1:04:11] And there's any number of things that people will come in and maybe have a chat to a psychologist about.
[1:04:16] But, look, my goal with working with adults is to help people get to the core of what's really going on for them, right?
[1:04:24] So what's underneath?
[1:04:25] It may not be the thing that you think it is.
[1:04:28] It might be deeper than that.
[1:04:30] For example, a young person I was working with today, a young adult, was talking about the fact that he feels this unbelievable pressure to succeed in his career, right?
[1:04:42] And if he doesn't do that, he feels almost suicidal, like life's not worth living, that kind of extreme binary.
[1:04:49] But through our conversation today, we said, well, let's try and get to the heart of that, because I don't think that's actually the basis of what the issue is here.
[1:04:56] It's probably deeper.
[1:04:58] And through the session, we got down to, well, what is at a fundamental level of all of us?
[1:05:03] What do we want?
[1:05:03] What are we afraid of?
[1:05:05] At our absolute core, all of us share the same thing, which is this experience of living this very confusing existence, being on a rock floating through space, not really sure why, for a limited time.
[1:05:22] That is the fundamental reset.
[1:05:24] Shouldn't have pulled that bong before this episode.
[1:05:29] Wow.
[1:05:29] This is my favorite conversation to have with a client.
[1:05:34] Why?
[1:05:35] This is the ultimate reset.
[1:05:37] Okay?
[1:05:38] No matter what it is, right?
[1:05:40] What connects all of us?
[1:05:41] It's that.
[1:05:42] It's how messy and confusing this whole experience is.
[1:05:47] So, I think that particular client, we're talking about stemming from existential dread, right?
[1:05:52] Of the fear of death, of the loss of control, of...
[1:05:57] feeling unsafe.
[1:05:59] And we crave that.
[1:06:00] We crave that feeling of security and safety, these primal needs.
[1:06:04] So that perspective reset, okay, it's all right to feel uncertain and worried and unsure and have low self-worth or whatever it is because ultimately we're all in this together and it is very confusing.
[1:06:19] So there are a lot of people out there with really definitive answers
[1:06:23] I don't feel like I'm one of them, but I can encourage you that it's okay to feel confused and it's okay to not know the answers.
[1:06:31] And that commonality, that shared experience is actually quite, I find, rather than being depressing, it connects me to every single person on the planet.
[1:06:40] I, I, I like, of course you're right.
[1:06:44] But all the evidence, when you look, when you get, like you were saying before, when you go on online or you speak to friends because of the, probably because of the lack of vulnerability and, and honesty from most people, particularly when they're presenting themselves publicly.
[1:06:59] the evidence says that like everyone knows exactly what they're doing.
[1:07:02] Like everyone knows exactly what they're doing and they've got a pretty good plan and they're pretty bloody happy.
[1:07:08] Yeah.
[1:07:08] So, why aren't I like that?
[1:07:09] Yeah.
[1:07:10] Yeah.
[1:07:10] So, that's that layer.
[1:07:12] There's so much richness to be gained from digging in on that.
[1:07:15] And I'm not suggesting to just ignore that.
[1:07:18] It's important.
[1:07:20] Those things are real.
[1:07:21] Yeah.
[1:07:22] But the truth below that can help diffuse that pressure that you might feel instantly, right?
[1:07:31] The basic kind of, it's almost a cliche of psychology, there's always another way of looking at something.
[1:07:35] You can look at something from a different angle, something kinder, something gentler, something more funny, something less intense.
[1:07:41] This one I've said, it's the ultimate perspective reset.
[1:07:45] Every single person, no matter how powerful, influential, dominant, scary, whatever,
[1:07:51] We're all in the same playing field.
[1:07:53] It's the ultimate equalizer.
[1:07:55] No one has any clue, in my opinion, ultimately, why we're here.
[1:07:59] They've got some strong opinions about it.
[1:08:01] Well, I mean, I would 100% agree, but I've only really realized that since doing this podcast, to be honest.
[1:08:07] Right.
[1:08:08] Yeah.
[1:08:08] So, I find that really encouraging.
[1:08:10] And as I said, it's my favorite conversation to have with adults because it takes the pressure off.
[1:08:16] It sure does.
[1:08:17] You can come at that from a nihilistic point of view, right?
[1:08:20] If we're only here for a short period of time, we're on a ball floating through space and we don't know why.
[1:08:25] What's the point?
[1:08:27] Okay.
[1:08:28] Yeah.
[1:08:28] You can go that way if you want.
[1:08:30] But that's not the way it feels, right?
[1:08:31] The experience of being human is about connection and emotion and relationships.
[1:08:36] And there's so much interest in that, even if we don't know why, it's profound.
[1:08:43] So when you say that, do you mean like the joy of connecting with other people really can, you can achieve that no matter who you are, more or less, like you don't have to be rich and powerful and successful to do that.
[1:08:56] Oh, sure, sure.
[1:08:57] The rich and powerful thing,
[1:08:58] I think you're leaning into stuff that we apply to ourselves, right?
[1:09:02] In the midst of that confusion, that existential dread, that uncertainty, what anything means and why we're here.
[1:09:08] We've put these pressures on ourselves.
[1:09:11] We're just born into it, aren't we?
[1:09:13] These roles and responsibilities we can have, like this particular client I was talking about this morning.
[1:09:18] He was saying, well, I have to be this by this age and then I have to achieve this by this age.
[1:09:23] It's like, well, if you were born in a different culture by chance or a different time by chance, the pressures you would be putting on yourself would be completely different.
[1:09:31] It's arbitrary.
[1:09:32] It's just relevant to this culture right now in this time that you feel that pressure.
[1:09:36] Oh, that's so cool.
[1:09:38] Yeah.
[1:09:38] And that just makes you realize, well, hang on, why am I doing that to myself?
[1:09:43] It's socially constructed.
[1:09:45] Yes.
[1:09:46] I love that.
[1:09:48] When I think about that, I think, you know, I've experienced that thought as well.
[1:09:52] Not the intensity of your client, but just the thing of like...
[1:09:55] I have to get those marks at school and I have to go to uni and I have to get into this course and they're in this job and then I'll be paid money and then a lot of money and then that's it.
[1:10:03] Then you win or something.
[1:10:04] Then you made it.
[1:10:05] Yep.
[1:10:06] Now I look back on that.
[1:10:06] I go, I can't believe I fell for that.
[1:10:09] Right.
[1:10:09] I fall for that.
[1:10:09] That's ridiculous.
[1:10:10] That's not what it's about.
[1:10:11] It's like, it's go to school, make as many strong, rich connections as possible and do what you love doing and do it as best that you can and continue to do that for the rest of your life in the place that it feels right.
[1:10:24] And, um,
[1:10:25] But I always, when I think back to what I was doing and the way I thought, similar to what Ryan was saying before, I feel like, oh, how did I fall for that?
[1:10:32] And how dare people perpetuate that still?
[1:10:34] Very true.
[1:10:35] But if we think about, obviously, like Maslow's hierarchy of needs, there is a need to get food on the table.
[1:10:39] There's a need to do enough to survive, right?
[1:10:42] We have to do that to a degree.
[1:10:43] So that requires some level of participation in society.
[1:10:47] So you could go down that argument.
[1:10:49] But from a mental health point of view, from an identity point of view, the amount of pressure we put on ourselves to meet society's standards, I think it's helpful to diffuse that and reset that a little bit and step back from it and go, well, hang on a second.
[1:11:03] What's the thing that connects us, not makes me feel different or less than or divides me from the person next to me?
[1:11:10] This is very basic psychology here.
[1:11:12] It's just what connects us feels better.
[1:11:15] So the one that resets us back to the point where we are literally all the same, confused, wandering, sentient, imaginative beings with a short lifespan, doing this together.
[1:11:26] It's like, oh, maybe I don't need to put so much pressure on myself to be amazing.
[1:11:30] Yeah.
[1:11:31] So, yeah, how we treat each other becomes essential, right?
[1:11:34] That's where I think that self-compassion, that dialogue about ourself, that we're kind to who we are and nurture our child self that is always with us.
[1:11:43] And that's a thread I love working with people on, narrative therapy and child therapy and schema therapy, getting back to what's that vulnerable kid saying?
[1:11:51] We're so harsh to our adult self, but when we think of ourselves as a vulnerable child, we're much kinder.
[1:11:56] I love that, like thinking about ourselves as kids.
[1:11:59] Yeah.
[1:12:00] Yeah.
[1:12:00] Treating ourselves, is it?
[1:12:01] Yeah.
[1:12:02] Because, yeah, I still, like, I think really for a lot of us, we just got taller and our voices changed.
[1:12:09] But we still have the same.
[1:12:12] Like I still, you know, when I take the kids to the playground, when another group of kids come running in, I'm like, oh, God, I get nervous.
[1:12:19] Like I'm like, oh, God, youth.
[1:12:21] Youths are coming.
[1:12:22] Oh, God.
[1:12:23] Or like when I'm.
[1:12:24] You can take them here.
[1:12:26] But then I realized, oh, hang on, why am I having this fear?
[1:12:29] Like it's, my kids haven't even noticed that they're coming here.
[1:12:32] And I'm like, oh God, there are kids coming.
[1:12:34] I find that really interesting as a parent that you, a lot of the anxieties and fears I had as a child, I map over my children.
[1:12:44] And I'm like, in that situation, I was like, I'm like, oh, don't do that.
[1:12:48] I can see all those things replaying.
[1:12:50] Of course we do.
[1:12:51] And I say that I've more or less overcome my bullying.
[1:12:55] Of course, to a degree I have, but that vulnerable experience stays with me.
[1:13:01] So when I see my daughter, she had to change schools when we moved up from Phillip Island to live here again.
[1:13:07] and was going into the grade that I was when I had this bullying.
[1:13:10] So I was so conscious of that was my number one priority, that she would feel settled in her social group because I was projecting my own experience.
[1:13:19] Thankfully, she adjusted very well and has a lovely group of friends.
[1:13:23] But yeah, we all do this.
[1:13:27] Our child self is still there.
[1:13:28] Yeah.
[1:13:29] So in the same breath that I say,
[1:13:31] I project my own fears on my kids.
[1:13:33] I also, my instinct in so many situations, I catch myself having my kids' response to, if I go into a room full of people and it's like a social situation, I have a split second of like,
[1:13:47] Oh, my God.
[1:13:47] And I'm just like this nervous, like, I don't know what to say.
[1:13:51] And then part of me goes, oh, no, you're an adult.
[1:13:52] Remember, you can do like my instinct.
[1:13:55] I actually know what I can do here.
[1:13:57] I can make a joke to that person or I can talk to that person.
[1:14:00] I could connect these people.
[1:14:01] I could be charming in this situation here.
[1:14:03] Or you just go like, oh, I can just ask them about them.
[1:14:07] Yes.
[1:14:08] That's good.
[1:14:09] I'll do that.
[1:14:11] I've learned that as an adult.
[1:14:13] But I do catch myself having a moment.
[1:14:15] in so many scenarios where my child instinct is the first thing that pops up.
[1:14:19] And so to then it's not hard for me to think about myself as a child and go, well, don't be so harsh on yourself.
[1:14:25] You're a kid really.
[1:14:26] You've just got heaps taller and you've got less hair.
[1:14:29] Yeah.
[1:14:31] So on – because I wonder like that client that you saw today about like desperately wanting success.
[1:14:40] Not to that degree, but I definitely relate to those feelings in my life.
[1:14:44] Really, really thinking that, you know, it's success or bust.
[1:14:48] It's like my life is not meaningful if I don't have success.
[1:14:53] But how much of that is connected to, I guess, probably from our child, but that –
[1:14:59] feeling of like wanting to be loved by people, by wanting to be accepted or is that part of it?
[1:15:04] Oh, of course.
[1:15:05] Yeah.
[1:15:06] So, desire to feel loved and safe.
[1:15:09] They're our primal needs.
[1:15:11] So, yeah, that influences everything we do and we just overcomplicate it.
[1:15:16] So, then if that is it, so then what do you, what would you, it's obviously person to person specific, but what would you say?
[1:15:25] to someone who's having that thing, like is having that feeling of like, you can tell that it's primal needs, it's just they wanna be loved, but they're putting it in words of like, I need to be successful, I need to be the best at what I do.
[1:15:36] There's nothing wrong with wanting stuff, right?
[1:15:38] And ambition.
[1:15:39] So I'm not trying to suggest that's a problem in itself.
[1:15:42] But I'm looking at the cost, right?
[1:15:44] For this young person, that binary, what I would consider at some level a choice or socialized, however you want to say it, it's impacting their life to the extent that they live on this extreme level of joy at achievement and not wanting to even live at not achievement.
[1:16:02] And that might be more extreme than what you're describing.
[1:16:07] So look at the cost of the – if the pressures and expectations we're putting on ourselves are socially learned, what could we gain by deconstructing them, looking at them in a different way, doing the perspective reset that we've talked about?
[1:16:20] What would be different?
[1:16:22] So if it – that might help you just still go for that thing because you just want to do it.
[1:16:27] You're on earth and you've got a certain limited amount of time and that sounds fun.
[1:16:30] And I've got some skills.
[1:16:31] I'm going to try and do that thing.
[1:16:33] But your sense of self is not on the line.
[1:16:34] Right?
[1:16:35] Your sense of your value is not on the line.
[1:16:37] Because you have the ability to say, well, actually, we're all kind of just floating around in space and we don't know why.
[1:16:43] This is okay.
[1:16:44] I don't have to do that thing.
[1:16:46] I share a common experience with every living person confused on this planet, like I am.
[1:16:51] We're trying to feel loved.
[1:16:52] We're trying to feel safe.
[1:16:54] We're trying to feel connected.
[1:16:56] And it just gives you the ability to turn the volume up and down on that need or that desire or that emotion.
[1:17:01] So that I think is encouraging to people to not feel as stuck in that zone.
[1:17:06] Yeah.
[1:17:08] I mean, I think a couple of years ago I kind of had the, I must have read something or, but I kind of, I learned the idea of it doesn't matter.
[1:17:17] And not to the extent where nothing matters because things do matter, but there was a real relief for me in like,
[1:17:25] I mean, for my specific situations, like if I don't ever get my own TV show, I'm not going to get my own TV show.
[1:17:33] it actually doesn't matter.
[1:17:35] Like there's plenty of other things that will be great in life.
[1:17:39] But I hadn't thought about it to that degree or that deeply.
[1:17:44] But when I realized that and I believed it to be true, it was so freeing.
[1:17:50] Because it wasn't like that doesn't matter than what does.
[1:17:52] It was sort of kicked me onto this path of like, well, what does matter if that doesn't matter?
[1:17:56] And that was life-changing.
[1:17:58] Yeah.
[1:17:58] But your experience of being in that sphere where that's a possibility and it might just feel just out of reach, it's the most understandable thing in the world if you've got those kind of, what are those horse blinders?
[1:18:09] Blinkers, yeah.
[1:18:09] Blinkers.
[1:18:10] All you can see is that.
[1:18:11] That's all that's in front of you.
[1:18:13] So, I guess what we're talking about is you take those off and you suddenly look at the bigger picture and think, maybe I don't have to just funnel my vision to that thing that I've invested so much of my sense of self in.
[1:18:24] Yeah.
[1:18:24] Well, it feels as important as being school captain.
[1:18:26] Right.
[1:18:27] Exactly.
[1:18:27] You know, I've got to be school captain.
[1:18:29] Yeah.
[1:18:30] But then, you know, you obviously get older and you realize like, oh, it was fine that I wasn't school captain.
[1:18:36] Yeah.
[1:18:37] You know, you often don't get that perspective until after.
[1:18:40] But when you're in it, it feels like it's everything.
[1:18:44] Well, that's a really interesting example to bring up because James sent me a really – I hope you don't mind me sharing the message you sent me today, yesterday.
[1:18:53] It's a pretty raunchy pick, you sure?
[1:18:56] Closing James.
[1:19:04] James had listened to the Ben Crowe episode and sent me a really lovely message about the whole school captain thing.
[1:19:10] And the response I said, and I feel it now, is that I've known since I was...
[1:19:17] 19 probably, that logically it's ridiculous to care.
[1:19:21] But I reckon probably now I'm almost there.
[1:19:26] But it's taken so long and so much work and so much other stuff going on in my life for the emotional stuff to not bother me anymore.
[1:19:35] And I reckon I'm probably there now, but it's taken much longer than I would have ever admitted before.
[1:19:41] especially to a few friends that give me shit about it because they know I care.
[1:19:47] Yeah, even though I'm an adult who logically knows it's ridiculous to care and it doesn't matter and it didn't mean anything really in the scheme of my life or it shouldn't mean anything in the scheme of my life.
[1:19:57] But yeah, those things can be a real tough thing to shake.
[1:20:03] Of course.
[1:20:04] And it's almost like it's not...
[1:20:06] Because it's actually not – I mean, from my point of view, it's not ridiculous to want a TV show and it's not ridiculous to want – like you're saying, James, ambition is awesome.
[1:20:16] Like we should – I really do want my own TV show.
[1:20:20] Like I want that to happen and I'll work really hard to try and make it happen.
[1:20:24] It's the putting all your eggs in that basket.
[1:20:26] Yeah.
[1:20:27] That now seems ridiculous once you learn what life is truly – what is really possible in life outside of the blinkered vision of it.
[1:20:36] Well, I just think if we focus on the emotional output, right, the cost of that to your experience of life, it might deny you happiness and contentment in so many ways.
[1:20:46] A little bit of agitation is fine, you know, because it propels you towards that thing that you want.
[1:20:50] But when the cost becomes, hang on, I'm experiencing real anxiety here and depression and low self-worth, that's where it can be really rewarding to reset it.
[1:20:58] Or perhaps disconnection in relationships, which is maybe something you talked about.
[1:21:01] Definitely.
[1:21:02] That was a big part of it.
[1:21:03] It was like, you know, you're so focused on this thing that your relationships suffer as a result.
[1:21:07] Right.
[1:21:08] But I think to your point, Josh, there's something I want to say here.
[1:21:10] It's like we have to remember those foundation stones we talked about at the beginning of this chat.
[1:21:15] Those don't change.
[1:21:16] They're part of our story.
[1:21:18] The slightly wonky bricks in the beginning or at some point you realized you were surrounded by school captains and your family and internalized this concept that in order to be worthy, I need to be the captain of my school.
[1:21:33] And once that brick was laid, it was very hard to shift it.
[1:21:37] And then you've stacked other bricks on top of that, right?
[1:21:39] And so when you're saying I haven't quite dealt with it yet,
[1:21:42] I just want to say that's okay.
[1:21:43] Like that makes sense.
[1:21:44] That's part of your story.
[1:21:45] You learned that at a vulnerable age when you were digesting these really big ideas and it stuck.
[1:21:52] And part of the amazing person you've become is because of that as well, right?
[1:21:56] Those vulnerabilities that you had informed other good choices you made too.
[1:22:00] It's not all bad.
[1:22:02] So I think this is part of self-compassion work too.
[1:22:04] We can look at our vulnerabilities.
[1:22:05] We don't have to think.
[1:22:06] There's not a necessity to overcome them.
[1:22:10] I've heard you talk about that a few times.
[1:22:11] It's almost like now I've got to the line and I'm done.
[1:22:15] I finished my homework.
[1:22:17] I don't think that's the right way to think about it.
[1:22:19] I would say those scars are part of your story.
[1:22:22] They're part of your pyramid of self.
[1:22:23] They will always reverberate up a little bit, but you'll be able to frame them in a kind way, in a loving way, and look at them in a way that doesn't hurt you anymore.
[1:22:31] That's such an incredible point.
[1:22:34] Thank you.
[1:22:36] Our traumas inform everything, right?
[1:22:39] So yeah, there can be a pressure we put on ourselves to recover from trauma, to put it behind us, to say I'm done with that now.
[1:22:47] But I think it's much more helpful to say that is an integrated part of my story and it's informed all the choices I've made since.
[1:22:52] Yes, it's painful sometimes, but I work with that pain, but it's also informed so many good things I've done.
[1:22:57] Yeah, yeah.
[1:22:58] It sounds like the next step to you is like accepting that you have wonky bricks.
[1:23:04] Yeah.
[1:23:05] And that's good.
[1:23:06] It's helped.
[1:23:07] Maybe that's the reason it's helped you to, you know, when you speak on this podcast, I feel like people really lean in to what you're saying.
[1:23:15] To my wonky bricks.
[1:23:17] The vulnerability in your voice and your storytelling.
[1:23:21] And I wonder if that's from wonky bricks.
[1:23:23] Like that could be a part of that.
[1:23:24] Yeah, I know that by acknowledging my wonky bricks, I'm here doing this podcast.
[1:23:30] I would otherwise, no way would I be here.
[1:23:33] Would never have messaged you here.
[1:23:35] Is that going to be the title of the podcast?
[1:23:36] Wonky bricks?
[1:23:37] Wonky bricks.
[1:23:38] It's not that.
[1:23:39] Acknowledge your wonky bricks.
[1:23:42] James, we love you.
[1:23:44] That was incredible.
[1:23:46] Yeah.
[1:23:46] Yeah.
[1:23:47] Oh, you should see him play piano.
[1:23:49] He could have done that whole thing to a piano.
[1:23:52] Scored.
[1:23:55] For the record, those things I said you were not designed to be played on this podcast.
[1:24:01] You've entered a category.
[1:24:03] Well, you're one of those people that like things that you do or say maybe uses content in any way.
[1:24:10] Thank you so much, James.
[1:24:11] That was, I cannot wait to listen to that back.
[1:24:13] Yeah, it was such a pleasure.
[1:24:14] Thank you for having me.
[1:24:16] Well, I feel like, James, there's going to be a lot of people interested in seeing you now.
[1:24:19] Of course.
[1:24:20] I mean, you mainly see adults now, you have told us.
[1:24:24] But if people do want to get in touch to see you, or people who work in a very similar way.
[1:24:29] So, the business that you started many years ago is Engage 101, which is in Northcote here in Melbourne.
[1:24:34] Yep.
[1:24:35] So, to see you maybe get in touch with Engage 101 or...
[1:24:38] practitioners who are like-minded to you.
[1:24:40] That's right.
[1:24:40] We've got a fantastic team.
[1:24:41] We work in schools, work in clinics.
[1:24:43] So yeah, absolutely.
[1:24:44] People are very, very welcome to get in touch if they'd like to come and have a chat.
[1:24:47] I feel like this is, if you're listening to this on the day it's released, I feel like you're getting the pre-sale tickets to a call.
[1:24:52] Yeah.
[1:24:55] Before the rush.
[1:24:57] Yeah, definitely let the person on the phone know.
[1:25:00] Yeah, you're a very, very special person in our life.
[1:25:05] You sure are.
[1:25:05] In our family.
[1:25:06] And yeah, I was like talking about just to finish off, when I was watching you in the Billy Joel episode,
[1:25:11] like everyone, I think everyone was watching going, this guy is amazing.
[1:25:14] And I was literally just going, I was watching you going, I love this man.
[1:25:20] That was the main thing I was thinking.
[1:25:21] They were all focused on your music.
[1:25:22] I was like, I'm focusing on this man and he is a very special person.
[1:25:25] So James, it is so special to have him today.
[1:25:28] Thank you so much.
[1:25:28] Thank you very much.
[1:25:30] The Imperfects is hosted and produced by Hugh Van Kylenberg, Ryan Shelton and Josh Van Kylenberg.
[1:25:35] Our executive producer is Bridget North East.
[1:25:37] This episode is filmed by Andy Poole and edited by George Martin.

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