# Myf Warhurst - The Anxiety of Uncertainty

An episode of [The Imperfects](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1476501557), 20 Aug 2023, 1 h 09 min.

Audio: https://enrichment.soundstack.com/4vjqq8/episode.flightcast.com/a7qqcj2rspa45ps2jbusze7m.mp3

Myf Warhurst is an icon. An Australian icon. Everyone, we have an icon on our podcast. From Spicks & Specks to Triple J, and Eurovision to Bluey… oh and doing a whole show about menopause… HER menopause… Australia has LOVED Myf Warhurst for a long, long time. You might even think it’s impossible to love her more, well just wait until you hear her honesty and vulnerability in this Vulnerabilitea House. Myf talks about the anxiety that comes with her line of work, how she’s dealt with the ups and downs that come with a career in the entertainment industry, and what she’s learned from the tragic loss of people close to her. To watch The Truth About Menopause with Myf Warhurst, follow this link: https://bit.ly/47C1nMo To listen to Myf's podcast, 'Bank On' with Zan Rowe, follow this link: https://bit.ly/3YFBIyc To purchase Myf's memoir, Time of My Life, follow this link: https://bit.ly/3OIOjMp To listen to Chrissie Swan's Imperfects episode that Myf talks about, follow this link: https://bit.ly/3qL7WeO This episode contains a discussion about suicide. If this feels like it's too much for you to listen to right now, you may want to skip this one and come back another time. If are worried about someone you know, need to talk to someone bereaved by suicide, or want to start a discussion about suicide prevention in your family or community, Conversations Matter is a practical online resource to support safe and effective discussions about suicide, to access, please follow this link: https://bit.ly/3Wx9tAO The Imperfects is not a licensed mental health service and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, treatment or assessment. The advice given in this episode is general in nature, but if you’re struggling, please see a healthcare professional, or call lifeline on 13 11 14. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

## Transcript

[0:00] My name's Josh.
[0:01] I'm a co-host on The Imperfects and the son of Sri Lankan and English immigrants, and I call Australia home.
[0:06] I'd like to recognise the traditional peoples of this continent whose land was stolen nearly 250 years ago.
[0:11] In particular, we at The Imperfects would like to acknowledge the Wurundjeri people of the Kulin Nation as the traditional owners of the land on which this podcast was recorded, and we extend our respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples.
[0:22] I'm inspired by the world's oldest living culture, and we at The Imperfects
[0:30] This episode contains a discussion on suicide.
[0:33] If this feels like it's too much for you to listen to right now, you may want to skip this one and come back another time.
[0:43] The Imperfects invites you into a very safe place.
[0:51] A place where we share without judgment and drink heaps and heaps of vulnerability.
[1:04] Grab yourself a cup.
[1:06] This is the Vulnerability House.
[1:10] With an icon.
[1:12] We have an icon in the room at the table.
[1:15] You are Miff.
[1:17] She's an Australian television icon.
[1:19] It's pretty exciting.
[1:20] Like it's pretty exciting we're at the point now where we can ask Miff Warhurst to come on the show and she's like, yeah, okay.
[1:27] I'm like, okay.
[1:30] I think it was more like, I love the podcast.
[1:32] I would love to come on if we can make it happen.
[1:34] That's not how I remember it.
[1:36] There's something slightly intimidating though about sitting with an icon, like we've got headphones on and a microphone in front of us.
[1:42] That's what you're iconic at.
[1:44] And here we are doing what you do.
[1:47] This is me in my natural habitat.
[1:49] I love it.
[1:50] Although I must admit I feel quite nervous because I guess, you know, that the subject matter might be not something I can control or plan.
[1:58] So, yeah.
[1:59] Well, I mean, to be honest, that makes me feel a little better that you're nervous because...
[2:05] The first of two times I was on Spics and Specs a long time ago, back in the relevant days of me, I was on twice.
[2:16] So obviously just Miff is a team captain on Spics and Specs.
[2:19] So the first time I was on, I was so nervous.
[2:21] Oh.
[2:24] like insanely nervous.
[2:27] I don't think I've told the story before.
[2:28] I'll just try and quickly tell it because, you know, I had not done really any panel shows.
[2:34] I mean, still haven't really done many panel shows, but I was terrified because on Spicks and Specs, I mean, I really like, that was especially at the time it was like in that first run, it was huge.
[2:44] You know, it's like this big kind of like cultural thing
[2:48] show that everyone watched an institution yeah and so i've come on and then speaks and specs obviously the way that the show works you've got the you've got team captain and then you've got a music person and then a comedian and so i'm on as the quote unquote comedian and so i'm very aware of the fact that my job is to be funny on this show and so i've gone into it just thinking okay well what if i'm not funny
[3:09] You know, and I just got in my head the whole thing.
[3:12] So I'm sitting there at the end.
[3:14] I was on Alan's team and I was just sitting there so nervous.
[3:19] And Adam said hello to me and I had like a couple of words back with him.
[3:24] And that was all fine.
[3:26] It was very quick, but, you know, at least I'd said something.
[3:29] And then the time began from when I said nothing.
[3:34] And it went for probably five or six minutes of just, there was just nothing to say.
[3:38] And the longer it went with me saying nothing, the more pressure it was for me to say anything.
[3:44] So, I was like, well, not only do I have to say something funny because that's what they're expecting of me, but...
[3:50] It's like now the pressure is building and building and building to say something.
[3:54] And I'm just sitting there terrified.
[3:56] And I could say every now and again, Adam would like look to me to kind of say, you know, like give me a gap to see if I want to say anything.
[4:03] And I just, nope, it's nothing.
[4:07] So then I was like, what if I go the whole episode and say nothing?
[4:13] I was just thinking like, this could be a first.
[4:17] I could do the whole episode and say nothing.
[4:20] Do I still get paid?
[4:21] Does Adam get his money back?
[4:22] Like, how does this actually work?
[4:24] Then, like a miracle, I don't know if you remember this, the ABC fire alarm went off and we had to evacuate the building.
[4:33] It was that show.
[4:35] We had to all stand outside with the audience and everyone and that was a fun time.
[4:41] It was good for me because I was like, oh, thank God.
[4:43] I was like, hopefully they'll cancel.
[4:45] And so we all went out and then we all came back in and there was something about the reset or the kind of the fact that we all had to evacuate that just relaxed me.
[4:56] And then I'd like to say that I came back in and absolutely killed, but no, I at least said something.
[5:00] That was a huge... You spoke.
[5:03] You said something.
[5:03] I spoke.
[5:04] So, yeah, so now you're nervous.
[5:06] Well, if it's any consolation, there were shows when I had the exact dialogue going on in my head.
[5:10] I hadn't said anything.
[5:11] I hadn't answered anything right.
[5:13] I hadn't.
[5:14] On your own show?
[5:15] I hadn't performed.
[5:16] Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
[5:18] I hadn't performed, you know, in a way I'd wanted to.
[5:20] And I felt, you know, there was some nights where I remember driving home going, oh, I'm such a loser.
[5:27] I can't ever win this quiz show.
[5:29] Because people say, do you cheat on the show?
[5:32] They used to a lot.
[5:33] Yeah.
[5:33] And I'd say, no.
[5:34] because otherwise they wouldn't let me lose as often as I did.
[5:38] I'm very competitive, obviously, and I took it very seriously in the end.
[5:42] There was nights I'd drive home, I'm a loser.
[5:45] Why can't I just win like Alan?
[5:48] And he was so quick.
[5:49] But that's the thing, you've got to know your limits.
[5:51] And it was fine and it was a fun comedy show and I probably shouldn't have been having those thoughts but you genuinely do sometimes.
[5:58] That is really surprising to me because, I mean, I don't know how that show is made necessarily, but I guess like having worked on a few different things, you, like the sense that I, the perception I have of Spicks and Specks is that the facade is that you care who wins.
[6:15] Yeah.
[6:15] But behind the scenes, it's like, as long as we're having a good time and it's funny and interesting, it doesn't matter who wins.
[6:21] These days that is my perspective.
[6:23] So when we go back and do it, we've done a couple of contemporary series and it was heaps of fun and it was pure joy for me to be able to do it.
[6:30] It didn't matter if I won or lost.
[6:31] But I think back then I was pretty new.
[6:34] I'd never done telly before really, not to any kind of –
[6:39] professional extent.
[6:41] And, you know, I wanted to, I was working at Triple J and I wanted to be respected for my music knowledge, you know.
[6:50] I'd worked hard to amass all this useless knowledge all my life, you know.
[6:54] And it is essentially pretty useless knowledge, but I was very proud of it.
[6:57] Not for that show.
[6:58] Yeah.
[6:59] Exactly.
[6:59] I kind of found what I was good at.
[7:01] It's like magically happened that I could focus what I knew and what I, I guess, studied my whole life up to that point.
[7:08] So I was like, I just wanted to be good, you know, and then there was a lot of times when I wasn't.
[7:13] And that's fine.
[7:14] And you say, yeah, that's fine.
[7:15] But then occasionally I was like, yeah.
[7:17] Why can't I win this?
[7:19] Yeah.
[7:20] So it's funny how your head goes.
[7:22] I'm not sure if anyone's watched more reruns of Spicks and Specks than I have because ABC Kids, we have ABC Kids on before the kids, just before dinner, and then we'll just, the kids have dinner and they go to bed.
[7:33] And when we come downstairs from getting the kids to bed, it's then switched over to the other, like they don't have ABC Kids at night and it's always Spicks and Specks.
[7:41] Oh.
[7:42] From like the very early years.
[7:43] So the other night I came downstairs and Hamish was on and he looked 10.
[7:46] Well, he was 10.
[7:48] He was 10.
[7:49] He was 10.
[7:49] So were you.
[7:50] I wasn't necessarily 10, but we had no idea it would be repeated for this long on the ABC.
[7:55] Absolutely no idea.
[7:56] Wish I'd signed up for some royalties.
[7:58] That's for sure.
[7:59] I'd be in the Bahamas by now.
[8:01] Yeah.
[8:02] Could I, now might be a nice time to read out a bio.
[8:04] Yeah.
[8:05] Oh, yeah.
[8:06] May as well.
[8:06] Gosh.
[8:07] May as well.
[8:07] I mean, it seems unnecessary.
[8:09] It does actually, no.
[8:11] But I've just been sweating on it.
[8:12] And so I don't like reading when lots of people can hear me read.
[8:16] And the last seven weeks...
[8:19] I got asked if I would host Life Matters on ABC.
[8:23] Amazing.
[8:24] And so I've been doing that for the last seven weeks.
[8:27] And it is an hour of pretty much reading out, just reading stuff off the screen to people.
[8:33] And I think I've actually become quite good at it.
[8:35] That's fantastic.
[8:36] But the ultimate test is trying to do it in front of you, someone who is the greatest.
[8:41] So I feel quite nervous doing this now.
[8:43] No, please don't.
[8:45] And you're working with an old producer of mine who's also a very dear friend.
[8:49] Who's wonderful.
[8:50] Yeah.
[8:50] Wonderful.
[8:51] You've got to feel comfortable in that environment.
[8:53] I do.
[8:54] I do.
[8:54] I think I've done okay because of Hayley, but that's another episode.
[8:57] Actually, it probably won't be an episode.
[8:58] It's just a whole episode.
[9:00] Wow.
[9:01] Hayley must be an experience.
[9:05] Not even a bonus?
[9:06] No, just a- Full Monday, proper schedule.
[9:11] So- Okay, bye.
[9:12] Miff, what?
[9:13] So just tell me if you've noticed a discernible change in the quality.
[9:18] I will.
[9:18] No, no, no.
[9:19] It's incredible the way you've made Miff's bio about you somehow.
[9:24] Okay, here we go.
[9:25] When you think of genius-level music gurus, you think of Miff Warhurst.
[9:29] From music journalism, radio to television, Miff has one of the most-
[9:37] Are we going to do that, are we?
[9:38] No.
[9:39] I mean, after such a big build-up.
[9:42] Mith has one of the most recognisable voices in Australia and a passion for the arts that sees her bring joy to audiences everywhere.
[9:49] Growing up as the youngest of four with three older brothers in regional Victoria, she's now known for her long-running role as team captain on Spicks and Specs, Australia's commentary team for Eurovision on SBS alongside Joel Creasy, her weekly podcast Bang On, which is a wonderful name by the way, with Zan Rowe and the voice of Aunt Trixie in Bluey, which I actually didn't know.
[10:09] But of course you are.
[10:10] Yeah.
[10:10] Incredible.
[10:12] Yeah, they got me involved.
[10:14] It was a long time ago when it first started because I'd already done a voiceover for one of their earlier animations, the people behind Bluey.
[10:23] Yeah, right.
[10:24] And I think they wanted me to audition for the mum but I think because even though I don't smoke, I sound like Patty and Selma from The Simpsons.
[10:32] So I think I was a bit too mature to play the mum role when it came down to the crunch.
[10:37] So I think they, from what I recall, because it's quite a few years ago now, pre-COVID, I don't seem to remember much.
[10:44] What I recall is they wrote Trixie, so they said, oh, well, you can be the auntie.
[10:50] And I love that, that I got kind of typecast straight away because Aunt Trixie only turns up for drinks, yeah, and takes mum away from the kids, like, you know, gives mum a break.
[11:04] And I think the other storyline I've had, it's can't stop eating chips, which I think is pretty...
[11:10] Pretty close to the bone, actually.
[11:11] I have tricks.
[11:13] Oh, wow.
[11:14] I know.
[11:15] God, that's huge.
[11:15] I didn't know you were in Bluey.
[11:17] Yeah, yeah.
[11:18] Wow.
[11:18] It's a beautiful role.
[11:19] Like, it's such a great character.
[11:20] It is.
[11:20] It's such a great character.
[11:22] Anyway, I'm nearly finished.
[11:23] Sorry.
[11:23] Oh, okay.
[11:25] I interrupted your perfect read.
[11:26] Are you guys happy so far?
[11:28] You're doing so well.
[11:29] It's really great.
[11:30] She's also very recently been travelling the country as a narrator in the new Australian production, The Rocky Horror Show.
[11:36] Last year, Miff released a memoir, Time of My Life, which incidentally, I don't know if you remember this.
[11:41] I remember.
[11:42] So I went away with Ben Shurey, a former guest of ours, and he gave it to me as a present at the end of our trip away.
[11:47] He gives presents a lot.
[11:49] And do you remember what you wrote on the inside of the cover?
[11:51] I remember that I wrote, don't fall off your bike.
[11:54] Brilliant.
[11:55] It was a bike riding trip and it made me laugh so much.
[11:56] Because I hadn't met you and I didn't know what to write.
[11:58] It made me laugh so much.
[12:00] Then I liked it so much, I was like, I'm going to read this on the plane on the way back to Melbourne from Tassie.
[12:05] And I left it on the plane.
[12:06] You left it on the plane.
[12:07] Oh.
[12:08] I know.
[12:09] I'm so sorry.
[12:09] That's all right.
[12:10] But I loved what you wrote.
[12:11] Thank you.
[12:12] Oh, that's good what you read on that short flight from Hobart.
[12:15] I'll knock this book off on this.
[12:16] No, the guy's in the house who talked the whole way, so I didn't get to read it at all.
[12:20] I just read the inside cover and I left it on the plane.
[12:22] I think that's like an Oprah thing, you know, where you give, what do they call it?
[12:25] Passing it on to someone.
[12:25] Passing it on to somebody else.
[12:27] I think that's brilliant.
[12:27] I've left many a book and an iPad on a plane that I still think about just, you know, gifting forward.
[12:35] I'm going to be amazing if like the next person in that seat on the plane was Cadel Evans and just opened it.
[12:41] It's like, wow.
[12:44] Okay.
[12:45] Thank you, Viv.
[12:46] Just to reiterate what Ryan said, and we do need to get into the cards very soon.
[12:49] Yes, we do.
[12:50] Absolutely.
[12:50] But something about hearing that you would like to come on the podcast and also that you listen to it, it felt so validating.
[12:56] I don't know what it was.
[12:56] I just went, oh, my gosh.
[12:58] It felt like we made it.
[12:59] That's what it felt like to me.
[13:00] So thank you for being here today.
[13:01] Well, it's lovely to be here.
[13:03] Like I said, you know, there's a lot of, I've got a lot of love for the podcast because during COVID for a lot of people, I know that it played a huge role.
[13:13] And also more recently too, when I was doing Rocky Horror, I was travelling into the city, I had an hour drive each day in and out and I was just desperate, desperate for, you know, just to hear other people's ideas and thoughts because when you're doing theatre and this is something I'd never done before, you're very much in a bubble.
[13:31] And it's a good bubble.
[13:32] And I learnt an awful lot within that bubble, but I wanted outside voices and I'd always be like, when's the next one coming?
[13:41] When's the next one coming?
[13:42] Thanks, Miff.
[13:44] Thank you.
[13:44] Thank you.
[13:46] The role on the Rocky Horror Show as the narrator, I haven't actually seen the Rocky Horror Show, but are you literally just behind a curtain narrating the whole time?
[13:53] No, no.
[13:53] You're out there.
[13:54] I had to go out on stage.
[13:55] Oh, okay.
[13:55] And I've never done any music theatre before in my life.
[13:58] And this is obviously a 50-year-old production, but that role is normally played by...
[14:05] an older distinguished gentleman of which, you know, who has sort of a bit of gravitas, of which I have none.
[14:11] So it was challenging.
[14:14] And I was quite grateful to have such a challenging thing to do because I turned 50 this year.
[14:20] Happy birthday.
[14:21] Thank you.
[14:21] I think it was a while ago.
[14:22] And for last year.
[14:23] I think I missed last year and the year before.
[14:24] I missed a few actually.
[14:26] Thank you.
[14:26] I feel good.
[14:27] I kind of took it on because I thought,
[14:32] Gosh, I might as well do something I've never done before.
[14:34] Why not make myself terrified again?
[14:37] Clearly I run on dopamine and adrenaline.
[14:40] But, yeah, it was a huge learning curve for me and it was a great experience in that sense.
[14:46] It's not all wonderful but it was something I'll look back on as something, you know, that I never thought I could do.
[14:54] Speaking of adrenaline, there are these cards in front of you.
[14:59] Oh, gosh, yes.
[15:01] So this is the Vulnerability House.
[15:03] If you've heard this type of episode.
[15:06] So for those who haven't heard before, we have this deck of cards, the Vulnerability House cards, and on each card there is a different question which will hopefully invoke some form of vulnerability from you.
[15:19] So they're all shuffled.
[15:21] Okay.
[15:24] And if any of those three speak to you... Do I have to read them out or do I have to hide them like Uno?
[15:30] No, you can read them out.
[15:31] Unless you've got to draw four and pray at myself.
[15:35] All right.
[15:36] Read them out.
[15:36] Okay.
[15:37] In what part of life do you feel immature?
[15:40] I can just answer that with one line, all the time.
[15:44] When did you last cry and why?
[15:46] Same answer, all the time.
[15:50] Hopefully you've got a longer answer for the third one.
[15:53] What triggers anxiety in you?
[15:56] Well, that's got to be the one, I think.
[15:58] Oh, yeah?
[15:58] Yeah, because the other ones are pretty straightforward, really, which is all the time.
[16:02] Okay, great.
[16:04] All right, so what triggers anxiety in you?
[16:05] Let's go with that.
[16:06] Wow.
[16:07] Okay.
[16:07] I mean, that's a huge question.
[16:09] Where do you start?
[16:10] Everything?
[16:10] No, that's not good enough.
[16:12] It'd be good if you could cover everything that's ever triggered anxiety.
[16:16] Yeah.
[16:16] I remember we had, we mentioned Missy before, Missy looked at this question, thought about answering it, and she said, probably doing this fucking podcast.
[16:24] I was going to say that, but yes.
[16:28] So, yeah.
[16:29] So, I mean, is there anything that comes to mind that,
[16:32] Well, we were talking about Rocky and having that experience and I was surrounded by a lot of younger actors and performers and, you know, here's me coming in thinking I'm wise at 50 and you see the life that they lead.
[16:47] You know, you've had guests on who also lead that life where it's...
[16:50] You get a gig for a certain period of time.
[16:52] It's high intensity.
[16:53] You live in a bubble.
[16:54] It takes over your life.
[16:56] And yet you've always got to prepare for the next gig, the next gig, the next gig.
[17:01] And essentially what musical theatre performers and theatre performers do is –
[17:06] And I guess what we all do to a certain extent if you run your own business is you rely on the gig economy.
[17:11] It's like the original version of that, just having to kind of find a bit for the next job or keep hustling.
[17:18] The freelance life.
[17:18] Yeah, the freelance life.
[17:20] And I mean, that's obviously an anxiety in me, but I thought I'd knocked it on the head.
[17:24] You know, here's me being a wise, wise older woman.
[17:28] You know, they'd say, look, it's really hard having to perform like this and having to
[17:35] keep moving forward all the time and look to the future.
[17:38] And, um, and I'd say, look, you know, when you, when you've done the work and, and you're a good person and, and you've put in the hard yards, you know, looking back on my life, it, it has, you have to put a bit of faith in something else out there to, to hope that, or to know that if you have been a good person and done the work, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're,
[17:59] It will come.
[18:00] And so enjoy those moments when you're not working.
[18:06] Try and enjoy them at least because, you know, this is me saying this and yet I'm exactly that person.
[18:13] I can see it.
[18:15] I can see that.
[18:17] That's how you should be and I was passing that knowledge on as if I was a wise old sage.
[18:24] And here I am still in the same position where I get anxious about that.
[18:30] And as much as I know that I shouldn't given – I do have history and I do have a profile and all those things.
[18:39] I just think that freelance life, that hustle, that fear, it just –
[18:44] never leaves you as much as you try to kind of get a grasp on it and know that things will probably be okay.
[18:53] And if not, I can do something else.
[18:54] It doesn't matter.
[18:56] I'm not adverse to doing something completely different if I have to.
[19:01] But it's all about ideas of relevancy as well.
[19:05] And when you get older, you get anxious about that, even though you know that that's ageism at play and that's ingrained ageism.
[19:13] And all of those things, I think, very much contribute to my own anxiety.
[19:20] Saw it in these young folk and all I wanted to do was give them a hug and say it'll be okay and you'll be okay.
[19:25] But when you don't believe it yourself, I think it's – I realised because maybe I wasn't experiencing it at the time.
[19:37] But then I looked back onto it and went, gosh, you're just as anxious about that as they are.
[19:43] So I was trying to give advice but I wasn't really –
[19:46] Actually being a follower, yeah.
[19:47] Yeah.
[19:48] Did you know, did you feel comfortable in yourself until you saw them experiencing those anxieties and then it brought it out in you or was that always there?
[19:58] Oh, it's always been there.
[19:59] I think it's been ongoing, you know.
[20:03] It's a weird little business that we find ourselves in.
[20:05] Oh, God, yeah.
[20:06] And it's – and I love it and I'm very grateful, but it's also – you've got to ride the roller coaster and be good at that in order to survive it.
[20:19] And sometimes you just don't want to be on that roller coaster at all and it would be nice to have –
[20:24] you know, something that... Security.
[20:26] Security.
[20:26] And I do now.
[20:28] Like it's...
[20:29] I'm not...
[20:30] I'm certainly not...
[20:32] I'm very privileged at this point in my career.
[20:34] I've had wonderful things to do and wonderful experiences.
[20:39] But that anxiety just eats away at you continually.
[20:42] Yeah.
[20:42] And I imagine that's normal for anyone who's running their own business or...
[20:46] doing anything, you know, working freelance or doing comedy.
[20:50] I think the difference, and neither one is harder or easier than the other, but I think the difference between someone who's like running a small business versus someone who's like a freelance performer particularly, I think the performing part of it,
[21:04] At least for me is like, not only is there the, not even necessarily fear, but like anxiety about not being chosen.
[21:14] It's like, yes, there's a thing about like, oh God, will I, okay, well, I haven't got any jobs booked in.
[21:19] So I was right for a while, but now I have to start thinking about how I'm going to earn money again.
[21:25] Yeah.
[21:26] So there's that aspect of it, which does kind of align with the small business owner, of course.
[21:31] Like they're always thinking how is the business going to pay staff and rent and all those things.
[21:35] But for a performer so closely tied into it is that exactly what you said, that feeling of like relevancy and fear of losing perceived relevancy.
[21:47] Because when you're on a show like Spicks and Specs, such a popular show,
[21:53] or like for me, I was on like Rove for a couple of years, you still worry about performing well, but you're automatically by default in the spotlight.
[22:04] You're in the culture, if you know what I mean.
[22:06] So it's only when you lose that, this is talking for me, you're out of that.
[22:10] And then you go like,
[22:12] How do I get back in?
[22:13] Like, what if someone doesn't choose me?
[22:15] What if that was a fluke?
[22:17] What if I've used up all my luck tokens?
[22:19] And now, you know, like, what if it was all bullshit?
[22:22] And now the truth will come out that I'm a fraud and I'm actually not talented.
[22:25] Yeah.
[22:27] Are you in my head?
[22:29] This is my experience, but my gut tells me that so many performers have the same experience.
[22:35] Does it resonate with you?
[22:36] Absolutely, absolutely.
[22:38] But the thing is too, you know, I'm at a stage where I could choose myself.
[22:42] But then I'm like, have I got any ideas left?
[22:46] Where are they?
[22:47] Where do they come from?
[22:48] Like, you know, how do you keep...
[22:49] being motivated to look for new things that you want to work on.
[22:54] And I imagine you guys would have that as well with this too, like the business that you run.
[23:02] Interestingly, I found that I agree with what you're saying, but having not been a performer but having been a freelance sort of content maker, I've made sort of ads and content and video stuff for about 10 years before doing this.
[23:18] And so I was never a performer, but my self-worth was so tied up with how desired I was, like basically desired, I think.
[23:27] Like, yes, there's the financial impotence that I had to get a job.
[23:30] But if I was finishing a job and no one had really called or I didn't have any irons in the fire, it wasn't so much the financial thing that would panic me.
[23:40] I would start to think exactly those thoughts.
[23:42] Like, you've been found out.
[23:45] Everyone has worked out that you're actually useless at this.
[23:47] We're so awful to ourselves, aren't we?
[23:50] But weirdly, I still think it.
[23:52] Like in this environment, like we had a two-month break where we weren't recording because you were overseas and stuff and it was a little bit quiet.
[23:59] And if I wasn't doing anything, I felt really shit about myself and my mental health really went down because I was like, you're not, you can't, exactly what you're thinking about, you don't have any ideas or initiative, you're useless.
[24:13] And I'm like, well, it doesn't really matter.
[24:15] I know we're going to start recording again in a couple of months.
[24:17] But I still couldn't get out of the mindset that I was in when I was freelancing.
[24:22] It stays with you even though you think you might have moved on from it.
[24:25] Yeah.
[24:26] So then the question for myself, and I wonder if you have thoughts on this, is was the self-worth thing there before I began working in the first place?
[24:35] Like looking for that validation externally from before I was, when I was a teenager, before I even had a job?
[24:43] Or did it come along once I got that feeling of, oh, people like what I do?
[24:49] Does that resonate?
[24:50] Yeah, yeah.
[24:51] I don't know.
[24:53] I think so.
[24:54] I mean, I haven't got a family or children, so I don't have that to attach.
[24:59] Sort of a question of the chicken or the ego.
[25:03] That's really good.
[25:06] Wow.
[25:08] That is a force remote for that.
[25:10] Well done.
[25:11] Thank you.
[25:12] If I knew that was on Spix and Specs.
[25:14] Was that the one line?
[25:16] Yeah, that's all I needed.
[25:19] Yeah, I can't remember what I was talking about.
[25:21] Oh, yeah, not having a family to attach that sort of sense of – I think I probably do attach a lot of –
[25:32] what I value about who I am to the work that I do.
[25:34] And I care about a lot of the work that I do.
[25:37] For me, the stuff I put out is quite often quite personal.
[25:40] But I also remember during COVID where, and this is probably the only good thing that came out of that time of isolation, is I genuinely had to sit with myself.
[25:50] And I had to work out...
[25:53] who I was outside of it all and I didn't mind myself, to be honest, and I started to really like my own company after a while, probably a bit too much because, you know, from that, I might be avoiding a lot of things, people.
[26:11] But I started for the first time in my life enjoying my own company and knowing that I could probably not have all of the other staff there
[26:21] and know that I could be quite happy as long as I've got my dog and cats and, you know, and my partner now who I met post-lockdown.
[26:33] And that is enough of a life.
[26:38] You know, that is enough of a life to make me happy and I'm really good at doing nothing too.
[26:44] And I think, you know, there was a little element in there where I went,
[26:48] I don't want to work anymore.
[26:50] I've had enough.
[26:51] This is nice.
[26:53] Do you think if the lockdown happened 15 years earlier, do you think you would have felt the same?
[26:58] No, definitely not.
[27:00] Probably not.
[27:00] I wouldn't have known what to make of it all, I think.
[27:05] I can't imagine.
[27:06] I think as you get older, you do tend to be a little bit more relaxed with who you are.
[27:13] That is one of the joys of getting older.
[27:15] And there are a lot of joys of getting older.
[27:18] but that's one of the good ones.
[27:20] When you're like, oh, no, this is all right when you're at home alone.
[27:24] This is all right.
[27:25] Yeah.
[27:25] I like this.
[27:26] Yeah.
[27:27] Yeah.
[27:28] So, but, yeah, I think I still do attach my self-worth to the work, but as long as it's work that I'm doing that gives people joy or entertains them or helps them in some way, then I'm happy to attach that self-worth to that.
[27:43] There's something beautiful in that the way that the self-worth comes from the fact that what you're doing is serving other people.
[27:51] Yeah.
[27:52] Not yourself, it seems.
[27:54] Or that's what I heard when you said that.
[27:56] I'm not sure if that speaks to you.
[27:58] Absolutely.
[27:58] But there's something really beautiful in that.
[28:00] And I think really sustainable as a model when you are doing something that is quite public, when you're making it about other people and not about you.
[28:10] Yeah.
[28:10] It's beautiful.
[28:11] Yeah.
[28:11] I mean, I listened to the Chrissy podcast.
[28:14] She gave us all so much joy during lockdown too, you know, and that helped so many people and she probably didn't know it at the time.
[28:22] And, yeah, I think we're really privileged to be able to do this for others.
[28:27] That's Chrissy Swan you're talking about.
[28:29] I mean, interestingly, she did.
[28:31] I remember her saying when she was in here, she said that she does think that she is her work in many ways.
[28:37] Like she does think that her, I think that's how she put it.
[28:40] Like her identity is tied up in what she does.
[28:42] I think she's very conscious of that.
[28:44] And not in like a bad way, but just like that's how she sees it.
[28:48] And she likes it.
[28:49] Yeah.
[28:50] And that's good because she's doing good work.
[28:52] Yeah, I kind of, it was quite refreshing actually to hear her say that because it's usually, when people say that, it's usually seen as a bad thing, like you shouldn't be, but it's probably true for a lot of people.
[29:03] I think when you're the product too or you're the, what do they call it?
[29:07] What do the kids call it?
[29:08] Your brand?
[29:09] Oh, yeah, the brand.
[29:11] That term.
[29:12] Seriously.
[29:13] It's my brand.
[29:15] My brand.
[29:16] But when you are that and, yeah, I think you end up doing what you like doing anyway because it's you.
[29:23] True.
[29:23] True.
[29:24] Yeah.
[29:24] Yeah.
[29:25] That's such a trick.
[29:25] I've never thought of it until then, and this is maybe a bit of a sidestep, but we all have this sort of, I don't know, there's an idea out there that like if you love what you do, like that's the dream that you should love what you do.
[29:37] But what you do can often be so transient that it can, especially when you've got a job and a career like yours.
[29:45] That's really tricky as opposed to – I think that's what you sort of – we were alluding at that a family is a constant that doesn't disappear.
[29:51] Doesn't change.
[29:53] Whereas you're falling in love with a job and then leaving it and falling in love with another one.
[29:58] That's tricky.
[29:59] It's a roller coaster and I also think too –
[30:04] No one actually told us when we were growing up that life is actually more like the ups and downs of that.
[30:09] And I think when we were younger, we were told you do a kind of a gradual rise and then you hit all the markers and then you coast.
[30:19] Yes.
[30:20] And that is absolutely not the case in anyone's life, in anyone's position.
[30:26] But I think we still kind of hope for that moment or wait for that moment where it's like, oh, now I get it.
[30:30] Now I can just...
[30:32] But it's never going to happen.
[30:33] So you have to actually, I have to come to terms with that anxiety somehow in order to enjoy everything else.
[30:41] Yeah.
[30:41] Like I never usually quote song lyrics and I'm never standing in front of you.
[30:45] Do it, please.
[30:46] He's a big Taylor Swift fan.
[30:49] Paul Simon's song, Slip Sliding Away, The Nearer Your Destination, The More You Slip Sliding Away.
[30:54] That's what I think about as you were saying that.
[30:55] It's like it does feel like the more you know about the world, the more you realise how little you know.
[31:02] That's right.
[31:03] That's right.
[31:04] And so like he was me pontificating about, you know, dealing with anxiety and dealing with the –
[31:10] the difficulties of the job to, to younger, younger people.
[31:13] And, and, and I was kind of, I realized later, I just, I was, I wasn't there yet, you know, to be able to give that advice.
[31:23] What does it look like for you?
[31:23] What does the anxiety look like day to day?
[31:25] How does it affect you?
[31:26] If you're in the back of your mind thinking this job is finishing up and I don't know what's coming next, how does it affect you every day?
[31:35] I think it's just the worry, you know, it's the constant worry.
[31:37] And I'm low-level anxious anyway, I think I have been for most of my life.
[31:42] I think I worked it out.
[31:44] There was a period a couple of years ago where I was so anxious.
[31:47] I was doing radio on ABC Radio and I remember I was almost having panic attacks every day before I'd go on air.
[31:54] Really?
[31:55] Because of the pressure I think I put on myself to make it – make it –
[32:01] great.
[32:02] You know, I wanted it to be great so badly and it wasn't, I got sacked.
[32:05] So, you know, as you do in radio, but.
[32:08] Which doesn't necessarily mean that you were bad at it.
[32:11] No, it doesn't, but you know, you do take a little bit on board, but yes, you're right.
[32:14] You know, in radio you can, now I've been sacked at least three times, so you do get used to it.
[32:20] It doesn't hurt any less, but yeah, it's the worry that you're
[32:25] You can't do what it is that you like to do or think you're capable of doing.
[32:32] I think that's it.
[32:34] Is there like a – because a lot of people have like the voice in their head sort of saying the mean, cruel things.
[32:40] Oh, yeah.
[32:41] Does your voice have a particular repeatable phrase that –
[32:46] you're a fucking idiot.
[32:49] You fucking idiot.
[32:50] Language.
[32:52] Sorry, are we allowed to swear on this?
[32:53] I was talking to your voice, not you.
[32:54] No, but that's the voice.
[32:56] It's like, you fucking idiot.
[32:57] Why did you do that?
[32:58] You know, like I think it's a really harsh inner voice of which I've tried to deal with.
[33:02] But like.
[33:02] I think our inner critics went to the same uni because mine says the exact same thing.
[33:07] It's that common.
[33:08] Same uni.
[33:09] Do you learn that phrase?
[33:10] You fucking idiot.
[33:11] You're exactly like me.
[33:15] I think that what you said before about the kind of the roller coaster of what life, particularly connected to work, I mean it's all parts of life I guess, but yeah, you're so right.
[33:25] When you're younger you kind of see it as like –
[33:29] it's going to be this gradual rise as you get promotions and earn more money and build a family and then get to a point where you're like, okay, I'm now choosing to step away from work so I can go on cruises.
[33:40] I can't wait for that era in my life, by the way.
[33:42] I'm really looking forward to it.
[33:44] But in reality, it's not like that.
[33:47] And so we end up just cursing ourselves because we're in the down bits and then we can't enjoy the good bits, which there are often many.
[33:57] There are often many, but you're always worried about, you know, how it can go like that again, go down again.
[34:03] And I just – I feel like the stories that we tell our kids need to change a bit in that respect, you know.
[34:10] Oh, for sure.
[34:11] It's great to have goals, but like I think –
[34:15] There were so many, especially for my generation because I'm probably a little bit older than you guys.
[34:19] I know I am.
[34:22] You know, you hit certain markers and that was it.
[34:25] You go to uni, you get a job, you have that for a long time.
[34:32] You get married, you have children, like all those things.
[34:34] And that, I think, has really changed outside of our generation at least.
[34:42] But I think also with that we need to change the stories that we tell people about life.
[34:46] And again, it's building up what you do, resilience.
[34:51] I went to a dinner the other night.
[34:54] It was like the school I went to had their 100-year celebration.
[34:56] It was at Crown Palladium.
[34:58] It was a massive – it was like 1,500 people.
[35:00] And it was so loud I actually couldn't hear.
[35:02] The only thing I said all night to people was, I'm sorry, I can't hear anything you're saying.
[35:05] That's me too.
[35:08] And as I was leaving, the principal, the new principal come over and grabbed me and said, I'm my wife and I'll listen to the podcast.
[35:14] And we must have mentioned that before around this whole –
[35:18] how schools need to get better at not saying, well, you get this, Max, you get into uni, and then you'll get that job and then you'll feel happy.
[35:24] And he said to me, he's a lovely guy, and he said, my wife and I have chatted about this at length and it's something we're trying to work really hard on with the school now is setting up a more realistic expectation of what life is like outside of school.
[35:37] And so, yeah, I think schools are starting to have that conversation because I think it's just been the undoing of so many people now in their 40s and 50s are going, hang on a minute, this is –
[35:47] I've done everything I was told I had to do and I'm not feeling, I'm feeling empty in a certain part of my life.
[35:51] This is, so I think it's starting to filter back down now to hopefully anyway, cause it's important.
[35:56] It is.
[35:57] Not everyone can be as famous as each other.
[35:59] That's what I've got to tell our kids.
[36:00] You know, some of you will be famous.
[36:02] Some of you will be not as famous.
[36:04] There's a scale.
[36:04] Yeah.
[36:06] That is the only scar.
[36:07] They have to know.
[36:08] They have to know.
[36:11] Did you, when you were growing up, did you want to be not necessarily famous, but did you want to be a performer?
[36:19] I think that's another part of my anxiety.
[36:21] I didn't ever really know what I was going to do and I still don't.
[36:26] I've come this far and I still don't.
[36:28] I never knew then.
[36:29] I've just kind of fallen into things along the way and it's been quite haphazard.
[36:34] I've worked hard along the way too, but it's been quite haphazard.
[36:37] I haven't taken control of it necessarily.
[36:41] So, yeah, I didn't know what I wanted to be, to be honest.
[36:43] I think when I was in kinder I said I wanted to be a fish.
[36:46] So...
[36:51] There's still time.
[36:52] You never know.
[36:53] I know.
[36:53] I know.
[36:54] The right opportunity comes along.
[36:56] That's right.
[36:57] Fish for us.
[36:58] That's right.
[36:59] Fish for us.
[37:01] But, yeah, I see so many people around me, you know, that idea of making it or succeeding and it's so hard.
[37:08] And then, you know, I've had very close people to me.
[37:13] so much with that that it's had a detriment, you know, it's kind of been the reason why their lives ended, you know.
[37:20] Like it's been to watch that and to see us all get older and not understand, you know, or not to kind of get to a point where we are truly at one with, you know, the not knowing.
[37:36] Because, you know, a lot of musicians, an ex-partner of mine was a,
[37:41] a musician and I know that he thought, believed, you know, would hope for that great success.
[37:51] And as you get older and older, you know, it becomes harder and harder to reach.
[37:58] It's harder and the market is just huge and wide open now and, you know, I don't know what happened to him in the last couple of years but...
[38:09] And I imagine that was probably part of why, oh gosh, this is getting a bit deep real quick, why he started drinking excessively.
[38:20] And eventually he died of an aneurysm brought on by alcoholism.
[38:28] And that was during COVID.
[38:31] And I know that he had great hopes for his own career and I know that his anxiety was that.
[38:38] to of what next what how do you make this life work and it's you know people struggle struggle struggle with it it's and we we hide it and we we don't talk about it you know because it's embarrassing to think that you might not you might not be confident of what's what's next at any age really but I guess even as you get older.
[39:00] Did he talk to you about that or is this what you sort of, knowing him so well, that's what you kind of pieced together?
[39:06] Knowing him so well, I pieced together, yeah.
[39:08] I wouldn't feel right talking about, you know, any of anything else, but I know that he had dreams, you know, dreams.
[39:17] And it's very hard when you're a creative person and those dreams are often reliant on a lot of other people as well.
[39:25] A lot of variables.
[39:26] Regardless of your talent.
[39:28] Yeah.
[39:28] Yeah.
[39:28] Absolutely.
[39:29] And just general luck.
[39:30] General luck.
[39:30] And luck and timing and it's, yeah, it's rough.
[39:36] It's rough for them.
[39:37] And it's just so unfair that because we all do it, we compare ourselves to other people and just because they went to the same school or they're the same age or they grew up in the same suburb, you just assume that,
[39:53] it's a comparable person, but it's like everyone has like completely different conditioning, completely different influences, completely different trauma, completely different brains, just everything.
[40:06] So it's like, it's, it, it's illogical to compare yourself to someone else, but it's like the number one thing we all do.
[40:16] I know.
[40:17] It's so annoying.
[40:20] It's so pointless as well.
[40:22] Yeah, but tempting.
[40:23] It's so tempting.
[40:25] That's heartbreaking.
[40:26] During COVID and everything, what an awful thing to have to go through.
[40:33] Yeah, for his family and for him, all of it, yeah.
[40:36] Yeah.
[40:37] But I know that, you know, he's like us.
[40:41] We all struggle with those things.
[40:44] And I think when there's no defined path and you're relying on so many outside factors so much, it can really get to some people.
[40:53] Yeah.
[40:54] And because it's then it's like, where is, what is the end goal?
[40:58] Like often there isn't one.
[40:59] Often it's just like to make it or to become really successful.
[41:04] But, you know, most of the time we don't actually think about what that actually means or how it will actually feel if we get it.
[41:11] Yeah, I think it would be horrible.
[41:13] Yeah.
[41:14] If you had all like that life that's so – it's almost like an alien existence, I think.
[41:21] A level of super success.
[41:23] Yeah, and we're so hard on ourselves.
[41:25] We're so hard on ourselves because you –
[41:27] Because he was a member of an objectively successful band.
[41:32] Yeah.
[41:33] And I think most people would probably assume that it's like you're a successful person.
[41:39] Yeah.
[41:39] But you look at yourself so differently than other people look at you, obviously.
[41:43] Yeah.
[41:43] Yeah, you do.
[41:45] You do.
[41:45] But yeah, that knowing that that had such a knowing if he was going through that and I don't know, but knowing that it can have such a detrimental effect on someone who's so special and so talented, it seems cruel.
[42:09] It is.
[42:10] It's really cruel.
[42:12] And I wish I had a handle on it myself and, you know, that I could give advice and be all-knowing and say it's going to be fine.
[42:20] And, you know, but this is everyone's lives.
[42:22] It's not necessarily.
[42:24] Can I ask you what got you through that?
[42:25] What are the things that you do that really sort of, I guess, it sounds like a cliche to look after yourself and take care of your mental health, but that's obviously a really incredibly traumatic thing to go through.
[42:38] What are the things that you did that helped you?
[42:40] You mean through getting through Mike's death?
[42:43] Yeah.
[42:43] And really I hadn't been in contact with him for a while and we were isolated.
[42:51] We were in Melbourne.
[42:54] Funnily enough, it actually spurred me on to give up drinking for six months.
[42:59] Mm-hmm.
[43:00] I just stopped it.
[43:02] I'd already felt like I needed to anyway, but I think the one thing I learned is that it doesn't help in those situations necessarily.
[43:12] It might be the release you crave, but it's not good in the long run and it can take you down some pretty dark paths yourself.
[43:21] So I weirdly stopped drinking during that time and I started exercising a bit, which for me is pretty...
[43:29] Yeah, I'm not good at it.
[43:29] I ran a half marathon 20 years ago and I'm still dining out on it.
[43:32] So, you know, that's me.
[43:38] Yeah, I just tried to look after myself at a time when everything else just seemed completely out of control.
[43:45] And I got therapy and just really decided to deal with myself.
[43:52] And I was living alone as well.
[43:53] Yeah.
[43:55] So had you ever done that before?
[43:57] I had in dribs and drabs, like, another friend of ours who died years ago, many years ago, not many, but I sought grief counselling.
[44:11] That was the first time I'd been to any kind of counselling.
[44:15] A beautiful, beautiful man, Richard, who's a friend of yours.
[44:19] I worked with him and, yeah, yeah.
[44:25] I had grief counselling then.
[44:26] That was the first time I'd ever had it.
[44:28] And, yeah, I don't know.
[44:32] What did you do during that time?
[44:33] I think I just...
[44:40] I mean, to be honest, like that, this is like, I'd never cry.
[44:46] Like it's this weird thing where I just never, like even when I want to, I just don't.
[44:52] The last time I remember properly crying is after Rich died.
[44:56] Yeah.
[44:57] Um, it's like, I just needed, like, it was just like, like release, like, you know, like really like loud crying.
[45:06] Um, I was quite proud of it afterwards.
[45:08] Um, but it was, but I think just after that, I think, I don't really remember what I did necessarily to cope.
[45:13] I think it was just a, just general shock.
[45:17] Um.
[45:19] Talking to a lot of...
[45:20] I think it was just talking to other people in comedy and just general community, I guess you'd probably call it.
[45:29] Because in that time we didn't ever talk about, it was 2009, we didn't ever talk about mental health and certainly not, you know, Richard never talked about it.
[45:43] But even in the aftermath, I think we were so far back in those kind of conversations back then.
[45:53] And you, I mean, it would have been really, really confronting for you, no doubt.
[45:57] You were working, you were doing breakfast radio with him every morning.
[46:01] It's like a very intimate environment, obviously breakfast radio.
[46:04] It's like early morning, you like spend hours together every day.
[46:09] And from memory, it happened like sort of like at the end of the radio year.
[46:13] It was the day after we finished.
[46:16] Yeah.
[46:17] And it was just so shocking because even like his, you know, I know a lot of people and I didn't see him all the time, certainly not as much as you did at the time, but no one, well, not no one, but I guess like most people had no inkling that anything was wrong, which is why I can, grief counseling seems like I can totally understand like the shock of that must have been really, um,
[46:45] really intense for you.
[46:47] Oh, it's, again, not about me in that situation.
[46:50] No, but in that, you know, you were right there.
[46:52] I had to do something because I didn't know what to do and I didn't know about, you know, we didn't talk about mental health struggles and coping and any of that.
[47:02] And now we're so much better versed at it all and we sort of,
[47:07] know what to do.
[47:08] So when Mike died, I just went straight to those things, straight to those things, because I knew it had helped before.
[47:20] And I knew that the main thing you have to care for in any situation like that where there's grief, you've got to care for yourself too.
[47:29] Care for the people around you who are struggling.
[47:31] But I couldn't do that because I was in my own home on my own.
[47:34] So I
[47:36] I had to do something.
[47:37] Like I just had to talk to someone at length on a regular basis.
[47:41] Like I just did it.
[47:43] And, you know, again, work was a beautiful distraction in that time too because I was still doing the podcast Bang On With Zan.
[47:52] San Roe.
[47:53] And that was my only anchor because time was kind of nothing in that time.
[48:00] And so, yeah, I guess that leads to, you know, I do value and put value on my work experiences because they have kind of helped in so many ways, you know, get through.
[48:13] difficult, awful things that have happened to other people, not me.
[48:18] Do you mind if I ask – I mean, I really don't mean to kind of go back into talking about Rich too much, but the grief counselling you had afterwards, how was that?
[48:29] Like how did it – was the experience of it?
[48:33] I sort of can't really remember that time because, you know, when something shocking happens, quite often you just –
[48:41] It doesn't stick because you're too busy trying to deal with what's happening on a day-to-day level.
[48:49] But I remember that she was wonderful.
[48:51] She...
[48:55] I'd never, you know, I hadn't experienced anyone I knew who'd committed suicide.
[49:03] And I was asking all the questions.
[49:05] Why?
[49:07] How does somebody get to this point?
[49:08] And there was no discussion of it in the wider public at that time.
[49:12] I don't remember there being much.
[49:16] And she was wonderful in that she would give me examples of others that, you know, so you could – because there's guilt, there's all of that.
[49:27] There's regret, there's not knowing, not asking enough questions, not knowing, you know.
[49:35] And how did I not know?
[49:36] That was someone I was with every day.
[49:40] Retracing conversations.
[49:41] Absolutely.
[49:43] Did I – you know, all of that and –
[49:47] I got an insight from someone with expertise and I think that's what I needed at that point.
[49:51] Yeah.
[49:52] It was so valuable.
[49:53] Just perspective.
[49:55] Absolutely.
[49:55] Yeah.
[49:56] And also, yeah, tools.
[50:00] And since then I've just always, if anything's really difficult, I always go to see someone if I can.
[50:06] Yeah.
[50:07] Yeah.
[50:08] Yeah, it is.
[50:09] I mean, you're reminding me of that time because I think the other thing I did feel as well was I felt an element of guilt, even though I would only see him like maybe once a month at that time.
[50:21] You know, we would like catch up and talk about pilots, like putting a radio show together, like the two of us doing a show together maybe one day and like we were like...
[50:31] Sorry.
[50:31] I thought you...
[50:33] I was like airline pilots.
[50:34] You're talking about pilots?
[50:36] Yeah.
[50:37] What's your favourite?
[50:39] Any good pilots recently?
[50:40] Yeah.
[50:40] Oh, it's a sick one on Qantas.
[50:42] That's honestly what I thought you meant.
[50:45] No, we talk about work.
[50:46] We talk about like possible the future.
[50:49] So, yeah.
[50:50] So, when that happened, you just naturally –
[50:55] I mean, not obviously, but I didn't think it was my fault, but I did think a little bit of like, well, could I have said something or was I not a safe enough place for him to talk to me or something?
[51:14] I think now with everything I've learned and everything we've all learned as far as mental health goes, we know that that is, it's not the case.
[51:21] It's not about that.
[51:22] Certainly wasn't about me.
[51:23] Um, but in the moment it is very tempting to sort of think, to blame yourself and think that you could have done it, done something differently.
[51:31] And yeah, I remember having a lot of feeling of guilt actually at that time.
[51:34] And yeah.
[51:38] Hmm.
[51:39] Good man.
[51:39] Yeah.
[51:41] Can I ask you a question which I think ostensibly without context might seem a little bit abrupt or rude, but with the context, it won't be for you.
[51:50] Can I ask you about menopause?
[51:52] Of course you can.
[51:53] Because I need to segue as mankind.
[52:02] Wow.
[52:05] God.
[52:06] Light relief.
[52:07] Let's talk about menopause, gentlemen.
[52:14] Because I told – What are we talking about?
[52:20] I can tell you some stories.
[52:21] Well, no, just that I told Penny and my wife a few days ago that we were interviewing you and she was so excited and she said – she did an incredible show on menopause, which Penny said it was just so amazing.
[52:33] And I said, to be totally honest, I said, yeah, it's like I think that's when like women, they get really hot.
[52:41] As in sexy hot?
[52:44] That's when Sports Illustrated called.
[52:48] I said, no, they get hot and flustered, I think.
[52:50] They do.
[52:51] They do.
[52:51] That's it.
[52:52] That's one of the symptoms.
[52:53] Yeah, well, Penny said.
[52:53] But there are thousands, literally.
[52:55] Yeah, that's pretty much what Penny said.
[52:56] And then I said, hang on a minute.
[52:58] What is it even, like, tell me about it?
[53:00] And so Penny had watched it and she said, well, this is the great thing.
[53:03] She said, for me to see someone like Miff talking about it,
[53:06] her worries about it and the things that, the things she's unsure about to explore.
[53:10] She said it was so incredible.
[53:13] And Penny said, because most men think, oh, it means that, you know, women's, you know, they're no longer of any good to us.
[53:18] And I said, no, I don't think men think that.
[53:20] I just don't think, I think they think what I think, which is, oh yeah, I think they get a bit hot and flustered and that's, I don't really know.
[53:25] So I was thinking it's a good chance for men to pause.
[53:30] On men to pause.
[53:32] Men need to pause.
[53:35] Classic patriarchy move to put their own gender in the name of menopause.
[53:43] I love it.
[53:44] But, well, I figured I'm 50 now.
[53:48] I figured I knew nothing about what was going on and none of my girlfriends knew anything about what's going on.
[53:52] So if you're men with women in your life in any way, it's really important to know this stuff because it's an actual thing.
[54:00] And so I thought another thing I've kind of come to realise in my career and work life is I either do something that's entertaining, gives people joy or it helps them.
[54:09] And when Catalyst, because I did a documentary about –
[54:13] the neurological and health benefits of dancing for people over 65 for Catalyst.
[54:20] I'd done that for them and I loved it.
[54:21] I was doing a science documentary.
[54:23] It wasn't about me.
[54:24] It was about, you know, how other people can benefit from knowledge and learning about, you know, how they had various challenges and how dancing could help them through those challenges, both physical and mental.
[54:39] It was awesome and I just loved that feeling of not being the centre.
[54:42] as well of this story.
[54:44] So when they came back and said, we want you to do another doco, you can do it on menopause, I kind of went, oh, it's not really, I mean, it's not very glamorous, is it?
[54:52] It doesn't feel very glamorous.
[54:53] But then I thought if I'm having that reaction, then that says something about me and my own ingrained beliefs.
[55:01] Oh, yeah.
[55:01] And so if I'm having it and I'm an educated, very privileged person, then I'm...
[55:09] There's a whole lot of women who are also having that reaction and are therefore probably in denial or don't know anything like me, didn't know anything about it.
[55:19] So I wanted to do this to overcome my own problems
[55:24] It's ingrained, you know, there's a bit of shame around it because I grew up in the generation where women never talked about it.
[55:29] Like I never talked about it with my mum.
[55:33] And most women I know of my generation didn't, but it happens to us all.
[55:38] It's...
[55:39] So this is going to be a very silly question, but can you put it in a sentence?
[55:46] Like what is menopause?
[55:47] Menopause is the end.
[55:49] It's the last day of your last period, which means you're no longer essentially a reproductive being.
[55:56] Right.
[55:56] But perimenopause can last for 10 years in some people.
[56:01] What can perimenopause?
[56:02] Perimenopause.
[56:03] So you can start... How do you spell peri?
[56:05] Peri, P-E-R-I.
[56:07] Just think Nando's.
[56:08] Yeah, exactly.
[56:09] That's exactly what I thought.
[56:10] Peri, peri.
[56:11] Peri, perimenopause.
[56:12] You can get lemon and herb in the menopause.
[56:15] Hot, very hot.
[56:16] Sorry about the old birds.
[56:17] I was going to tie that in.
[56:18] But no.
[56:19] But, yeah, it usually happens around about – Perry starts about 45 and you start to get hot.
[56:25] You start to get brain fog.
[56:27] You start to become – some people become utterly furious with the world.
[56:32] It's all sorts of things because it's all based on your hormones and hormones are –
[56:36] Very scientific.
[56:37] We know what they do.
[56:37] They give you certain things and they take away certain things when they go.
[56:42] And I think for a lot of women what they don't understand is that once your estrogen goes, it actually opens you up to a whole lot more health problems that if you don't actually deal with them and come to terms with them and actually take action at a certain age, it can have hugely detrimental effects on you down the track medically.
[57:02] And because we've sort of lived in, we don't talk about that.
[57:04] Yeah.
[57:06] And let me also add, I hate to add that from what I learned is medical misogyny as well because it was something that women experienced.
[57:15] It really hasn't been studied.
[57:17] Oh, God.
[57:18] So, you know, we're only really starting to learn the effects of, you know, you have to start looking after your bone density.
[57:24] now.
[57:24] You have to start looking after your heart health because the minute your estrogen drops, your heart health is up for grabs.
[57:30] And that's why many women have heart attacks around 50.
[57:34] So there's so much that's just tied in and I learned so much about it.
[57:38] And it's vital that everybody else knows, women, men, and those in between.
[57:43] It happens to so many people, 51% of us.
[57:48] Is that still available to watch?
[57:50] Yeah, I think it's on ABC iview.
[57:51] Okay, great.
[57:52] But it challenged me, you know, because I've never in the media, I've never asked for attention on this because I'm not, you know, that was never something I liked about being in the media.
[58:02] But this was even more personal in that it was, you know, the focus was on my body, but what was going on inside my body.
[58:09] Oh, so you sort of were the specimen.
[58:10] I was the conduit, yeah, because I'm, you know, I haven't hit it yet, but I'm clearly on the journey.
[58:16] I'm on that train and it's been a real head fuck, I have to say.
[58:20] Sorry to swear again on this fine podcast.
[58:24] It's been a head fuck and it's, yeah, mentally it's been a huge challenge and so if I could give other people...
[58:34] the knowledge, I feel like that's got to be a good thing.
[58:37] Oh, yeah.
[58:38] But, you know, there's still that like, oh, yeah, you know, that was a weird moment for me in doing a documentary like that.
[58:45] But I'm really glad I did it because I've actually had greater reaction to...
[58:49] to pretty much anything I've ever done aside from Bluey because the little kids love it.
[58:57] Women come up to me in change rooms like when I'm in a shop trying on clothes.
[59:00] They're like, oh, they just grab me and go, that menopause docker, that was amazing.
[59:03] I'm like, shit, was it?
[59:05] I don't know.
[59:06] I don't know.
[59:06] I thought I locked that door.
[59:07] Yeah.
[59:09] But like it's stuff like that.
[59:10] It's meaningful to them because we're not given the knowledge.
[59:14] We don't know.
[59:15] And you'll be around it.
[59:16] Like it can affect some people really, really badly.
[59:23] Other people sail through it.
[59:26] Every person's experience is different.
[59:29] And yeah, and I'm still not totally comfortable talking about it because, you know, I know
[59:33] You don't want to be the menopause lady, but it's kind of someone had to because no one else would do it and no one else talks about it.
[59:41] And it's like puberty, essentially.
[59:43] You're going through puberty again.
[59:45] And we're all open about that, aren't we?
[59:47] Because we have children.
[59:49] We talk about it quite openly.
[59:51] We've all been through it.
[59:52] We probably weren't 50 years ago.
[59:54] Like maybe I feel like I've got this image in my mind is that the 70s is when puberty got talked about.
[59:58] It was before I was born, but maybe it's because of puberty blues or whatever.
[1:00:02] But I wonder if it's just like a, it's the next, you know, it's the frontier.
[1:00:08] Yeah, absolutely.
[1:00:10] And I reckon young women want to know about it too.
[1:00:13] They can arm themselves against whatever comes their way and be open with their conversations with others.
[1:00:19] But can you give me like a – and I'm already cringing at this question.
[1:00:23] I am too.
[1:00:24] Yeah, Penny's listening to me.
[1:00:26] I'm waiting.
[1:00:26] Just like throwing her headphones out.
[1:00:29] So in the lead up to that day, first of all, how long can that lead up be?
[1:00:34] It can be up to 10 years.
[1:00:36] 10 years.
[1:00:37] It can be five years.
[1:00:38] It can be three.
[1:00:38] Okay.
[1:00:39] You don't know.
[1:00:40] You don't know when you're in it.
[1:00:41] It's only when you're – for me, it was when my anxiety ramped up completely.
[1:00:45] Okay.
[1:00:46] Okay.
[1:00:47] And so in that, from what you described as happening before, are some of the symptoms.
[1:00:52] Is that the right word?
[1:00:53] Symptoms?
[1:00:53] Maybe not symptoms.
[1:00:55] It's probably not the right word.
[1:00:56] See, I'm not a doctor.
[1:00:57] This is the other good thing.
[1:00:59] Now's the time to tell when you're not a doctor.
[1:01:02] Yeah, something you're experiencing.
[1:01:04] Effects.
[1:01:05] Effects.
[1:01:05] So, yeah, okay.
[1:01:06] So, effects of menopause.
[1:01:08] The way you described it before, it sounds like – I hope this – okay, I'm just going to say it.
[1:01:14] Just before you have your period, like it seems like similar stuff.
[1:01:18] Is it almost like that few days in a month in the lead up to having your period –
[1:01:24] Is it like that?
[1:01:25] Can it be for five to ten years for people?
[1:01:27] Feeling absolutely like chaotic in the head.
[1:01:30] Yeah, yeah, it can for some people.
[1:01:31] For some people it's detrimental.
[1:01:33] But what happens is it's – actually, I should explain it a bit better.
[1:01:36] It's the year – No, sorry, that was me who explained it poorly.
[1:01:40] Now I'm getting confused.
[1:01:41] Yeah.
[1:01:42] So menopause is the year from the last day of your last period.
[1:01:46] So once you've gone without a period for a year, you've gone through it.
[1:01:50] Gotcha.
[1:01:50] Okay.
[1:01:51] Do you get that?
[1:01:51] Yes, I understand that.
[1:01:52] Okay.
[1:01:53] So perimenopause, yes, it can be an absolute, speaking of roller coasters, just like a tornado on a roller coaster, all of it.
[1:02:02] Yeah.
[1:02:02] And some people have, like I said, sailed through it.
[1:02:05] Other people have...
[1:02:07] extremely horrible experiences in that they have suicidal thoughts.
[1:02:11] It can lead to deep depression.
[1:02:15] There's so much that can happen and you can't predict how your body's going to respond to it.
[1:02:20] So I have been working in the mental health space for –
[1:02:24] probably since about 2009 when I really started.
[1:02:27] And people come up to me all the time to share their stories with me because I share my story.
[1:02:33] Not once, not once, this is just to really re-emphasise the fact that it's not spoken about.
[1:02:38] Not once has someone come up to me and said, I'm really struggling because of menopause.
[1:02:42] Never once.
[1:02:42] The shame.
[1:02:43] That's the shame.
[1:02:44] Yeah, it shouldn't be.
[1:02:45] It's so strange that something that every woman goes through is considered shameful.
[1:02:51] Yes, yes.
[1:02:52] And, well, culturally that's been the case.
[1:02:54] And so we battled that and we battled it within the medical system as well because, you know, you think about tests on all sorts of drugs.
[1:03:03] They weren't done on women until the 90s.
[1:03:04] Like we weren't included in the dialogue.
[1:03:06] For the 90s?
[1:03:07] Yeah, yeah.
[1:03:08] What the fuck?
[1:03:09] Yeah.
[1:03:10] 1990s.
[1:03:11] 1990s, yes.
[1:03:12] Oh, 1890s.
[1:03:13] They tried all sorts of things on women.
[1:03:15] They were horrible.
[1:03:17] But I think it's that shame.
[1:03:22] And I do think the younger generation are much better with it because they're coming through and they're armed with knowledge and they're given the right information, whereas –
[1:03:31] our generation, you just go and hide away or don't tell anyone about it.
[1:03:36] Struggle through it.
[1:03:38] You'll be right, especially if you grew up in the country.
[1:03:40] You'll be right.
[1:03:42] Yeah, I think it's – yeah, women have always been made to feel ashamed of what goes on with their bodies until childbirth where that's celebrated.
[1:03:56] And to me, it's just hearing what you go through and how hard that can be.
[1:04:00] It should be like a time of almost celebration as in like, I feel the same way when kids turn up to school with a disability or they're anxious or whatever and they feel ashamed.
[1:04:11] It should be the opposite of just like the fact that you're here today turning up with what's going on in your head, you should be so proud of yourself.
[1:04:18] And I feel like that's how we should be looking at it.
[1:04:21] Absolutely.
[1:04:22] Matter of fact.
[1:04:23] And that was my take on it.
[1:04:25] We've all just got to be a bit more matter of fact about this stuff.
[1:04:28] It's there.
[1:04:28] It exists.
[1:04:30] We go through it.
[1:04:31] Let's talk.
[1:04:32] We should have like a whole month on the podcast where people come and talk.
[1:04:35] And get an expert, not me, because I feel bad being like the giver of knowledge and facts because you'll probably get emails saying, this wasn't right and this bit of information.
[1:04:44] And I reiterate, I'm still learning about all of this.
[1:04:48] We clearly are.
[1:04:49] Yeah.
[1:04:49] But that's it.
[1:04:50] It's the thing, like no one knows.
[1:04:52] No one knows and like they should because it's huge.
[1:04:56] It's huge.
[1:04:57] And you do get to the end and some women feel awful because they do feel like their purpose, if they've attached value to that, that that is over and they're no longer being, you know, they're no longer being, you know, there's that term invisible.
[1:05:12] They feel invisible because no one looks at them anymore when they go into a shop because, you know, there's that whole culture of...
[1:05:20] putting you away when you get to a certain age, you know, and again I guess that led into my initial anxiety, you know, when you get older, the ageism, the culture, our entire popular culture is hugely ageist and this is tied in with all of that.
[1:05:34] So it's actually fascinating and, yeah, I just wanted to make it easier for other people because...
[1:05:41] God knows what it is because it can be different for everybody.
[1:05:44] But, yeah, my anxiety was massive and that's when I struggled doing radio and now I know what it was.
[1:05:52] I could have put a name to it.
[1:05:53] So like the panic attacks you were sort of talking about, that was happening around then, was it?
[1:05:57] I think so.
[1:05:57] I think now I look back and I've been told that anxiety is tied into it
[1:06:01] Very, very tied into it.
[1:06:03] Wow.
[1:06:04] Because, you know, your hormones are like all over the place.
[1:06:07] And you know what happened when you were a teenager?
[1:06:08] You were probably an angel and an asshole, like in the matter of 15 minutes.
[1:06:13] So, you know, that's going on in your body now as an adult and you're supposed to have your shit together.
[1:06:18] And not knowing why this is – and having no information would be like, well, where's this coming from?
[1:06:22] It must be me.
[1:06:22] There's something wrong with me.
[1:06:23] Yes, yes.
[1:06:24] And I thought that for a long time.
[1:06:26] And now I look back and go, oh, that was a couple of years ago.
[1:06:28] Gee, okay, that might have been that.
[1:06:32] Yeah.
[1:06:33] Wow.
[1:06:34] For some reason, I'm trying to brand our month of menopause madness.
[1:06:39] Oh, God.
[1:06:39] No, don't say that.
[1:06:40] No, that's a terrible word, actually.
[1:06:43] That is the worst word possible.
[1:06:45] I know, but it's so funny because even I'm still a bit uncomfortable talking about it because, you know, you don't want people to think about your body and what's going on because we've been growing up like that.
[1:06:54] It's like, just take it over there and hide it away.
[1:06:58] Yeah.
[1:06:58] So, yeah, it's been good.
[1:07:00] I pushed myself with that one.
[1:07:02] I really did.
[1:07:03] Yeah, wow.
[1:07:03] Wow.
[1:07:05] I think hopefully for the greater good someone will watch it, your partner will watch it and go, okay, right, I might know what to do.
[1:07:14] Because, you know, we're all going to age.
[1:07:15] It's the thing.
[1:07:16] I know we're all young and beautiful now and we think we're, you know, unstoppable, but frankly it ends.
[1:07:22] Newsflash, everyone.
[1:07:24] And you're all going to get there.
[1:07:27] Well, Miff, thank you so much for coming in.
[1:07:29] It's just a true honour to have you on this podcast.
[1:07:32] You're an incredible person and I'm very privileged to know you.
[1:07:36] Oh, thank you, Ryan.
[1:07:36] Thanks, Miff.
[1:07:37] That's really sweet.
[1:07:38] You make me cry.
[1:07:38] Go on then.
[1:07:41] Podcast's over.
[1:07:42] I'm going to say I do cry a lot, a lot.
[1:07:45] Yeah.
[1:07:47] Very, very special episode.
[1:07:48] Thank you.
[1:07:49] I hope so.
[1:07:50] See, I'm anxious about that.
[1:07:52] No need.
[1:07:54] That's been wonderful.
[1:07:55] Thank you so much for joining us.
[1:07:56] Thank you for having me.
[1:07:57] We've covered some really important topics, so thank you for shining a light on them.
[1:08:01] Went all over the place, which is like my brain during perimenopause, pretty much.
[1:08:06] Thanks, man.
[1:08:07] Thank you.
[1:08:09] The Imperfects is hosted and produced by Hugh Van Kylenberg, Ryan Shelton and Josh Van Kylenberg.
[1:08:13] Our executive producer is Bridget North East.
[1:08:15] This episode is filmed by Andy Poole and edited by George Martin.
[1:08:19] The Imperfects is not a licensed mental health service and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, treatment or assessment.
[1:08:26] The advice given in this episode is general in nature, but if you're struggling, please see a healthcare professional or call Lifeline on 13 11 14.

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