# Mitch Brown - AFL’s First Openly Bisexual Man

An episode of [The Imperfects](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1476501557), 21 Sep 2025, 1 h 16 min.

Audio: https://enrichment.soundstack.com/4vjqq8/episode.flightcast.com/lfs48b5w2zspo4oq0599p16x.mp3

This moment is bigger than Mitch Brown. 💌 subscribe to our newsletter, my imperfect email, here - http://bit.ly/45NyQDy. Tie up your laces and pull up your socks, this story is ones for the ages. As the first male AFL player in the sport’s 129 year history to come out as bisexual, Mitch, and the public’s reaction to his story, epitomises the importance of visibility, role models and the creation of safe and inclusive environments. Joining us in the studio, Mitch takes us back to the beginning, vulnerably telling Hugh, Ryan and Josh about the hyper-masculine environments which formed (and suppressed) his identity from a young age. Talking through his newfound imposter syndrome, past-mistakes, and journey to finding his true, authentic self, Mitch emphasizes the critical importance of empathy. Confiding with the guys about how monumental, overwhelming and joyful the past few weeks have been, Mitch also acknowledges the deep grief of people in his life who felt like they had let him down. Mitch, you are making the world a better place. We love you (so much). If you’d like to watch this full video on YouTube, follow this link: https://youtu.be/cLHU4CJkqww This episode discusses an experience of sexual assault, if this is something you're not ready to hear right now, we suggest you skip this one and come back when you are ready. 🎧Things to listen to: • The Daily Aus - Part 1: The AFL’s first openly bisexual player - http://bit.ly/4nHyQfJ • The Daily Aus - Part 2: The AFL’s first openly bisexual player - http://bit.ly/3VpMdVM 🚨If you, or someone you know, is struggling, these are a few great resources • QLife - provides anonymous and free LGBTI peer support and referral for people over 18 wanting to talk about sexuality, identity, gender, bodies, feelings or relationships. 1800 184 527, www.qlife.org.au • Minus 18 - Through a preventative model of mental health support, Minus 18 tackle social isolation by creating fun-filled spaces where LGBTQIA+ people under 18 feel they belong and are celebrated www.minus18.org.au • 1800 RESPECT - If you, or someone you know needs support after after experiencing a sexual assault, please call the national 24-hour sexual assault, family and domestic violence counselling line 1800 RESPECT on 1800 732 732. • Lifeline - 13 11 14, www.lifeline.org.au 🩷To host your own Vulnerabilitea House, purchase the Vulnerabilitea House Cards here - http://bit.ly/4lyuuWz 🩵To purchase our journal (or your novel) My Imperfect Life, click here - http://bit.ly/4lyuuWz 🩵To join our patreon community, A Little More Imperfects, follow this link - http://bit.ly/4mqunxu 🩷 AND you can subscribe to A Little More Imperfects through Apple Podcasts too, here - http://bit.ly/4mq5BO5 The Imperfects is not a licensed mental health service and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, treatment or assessment. The advice given in this episode is general in nature, but if you’re struggling, please see a healthcare professional, or call lifeline on 13 11 14. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

## Transcript

[0:00] This conversation with Mitch Brown contains a description of sexual assault.
[0:05] This may be difficult for some people to hear at the moment, and if that's the case, we suggest you skip, but please do come back when you're ready.
[0:12] My name is Bridget, and I produce The Imperfects.
[0:14] I grew up in Australia, but my ancestors arrived by boat in search of gold during the 1800s.
[0:20] What I've come to realise is that they arrived on land that had been cared for by the Indigenous peoples of this continent for millennia.
[0:27] It was and always will be Aboriginal land.
[0:29] We at The Imperfects would like to acknowledge the Wurundjeri people of the Kulin Nation as the traditional owners of the land on which this podcast was recorded, and we extend our respects to their elders past and present.
[0:40] At The Imperfects, my job is to create a space for important stories to be heard, and in doing so, I pay homage to a rich history of storytelling cultivated by the world's oldest living culture.
[0:51] I mean, this is so much more than coming out as a bisexual man for me.
[0:56] Rich Brown is more than a footballer.
[0:58] He's a trailblazer, a role model, and a reminder that the most powerful victories are not always won on the scoreboard.
[1:04] They're won in the hearts of those who finally feel seen.
[1:07] Visibility matters, it does.
[1:08] Seeing those rainbow colours.
[1:11] For a young queer person, it matters.
[1:15] You know, I've grown up seeing players being made the villain.
[1:20] I love you.
[1:22] I love you.
[1:23] I do love you too.
[1:25] But I love you reaching out to Isaac Rankin.
[1:27] It's not his fault because it's more than that.
[1:30] It's bigger than that.
[1:31] It's cultural.
[1:31] It's systematic.
[1:33] I didn't want to let a good, positive male role model define himself by one incident.
[1:40] We're all imperfect.
[1:41] And on this podcast, I'll be chatting with a variety of interesting people who are willing to make themselves vulnerable by sharing their own struggles and imperfections.
[1:50] I'm Hugh Van Kylenberg from The Resilience Project.
[1:53] And I'm Ryan Shelton from my mum.
[1:55] And I'm Josh from Hugh's Mum.
[1:57] And this is The Imperfects.
[2:02] Can't remember the last time that we had a history maker in the studio.
[2:09] Like, it's very, very exciting, but genuinely a real privilege that, Mitch, you're here and that you feel safe enough and comfy enough to be on our show.
[2:24] It means a hell of a lot.
[2:26] A hell of a lot.
[2:27] Thank you.
[2:29] So where's the history maker?
[2:33] You've made some history recently.
[2:34] I guess I have.
[2:36] Yeah.
[2:37] And we'll get into like all the, I don't want to like throw you right in the deep end straight away.
[2:42] Yeah.
[2:43] Before we do that, you guys will remember when we had Jack Steele from the Inspired Unemployed.
[2:49] Yeah.
[2:50] I wore a cap backwards.
[2:51] Yeah.
[2:51] Because I was really wanting to, well, I didn't do it deliberately.
[2:54] I just subconsciously was like, I really want to.
[2:55] Yeah.
[2:56] It was a really strange choice.
[2:57] I caught myself this morning in front of the mirror spending a disproportionate amount of time trying to make sure that my mullet was really pronounced.
[3:04] Really?
[3:05] Yeah, really just like...
[3:08] Like I wanted to.
[3:09] What did you try and push more hair out?
[3:11] Yeah, I meant to call it a mullet in front of what we've done.
[3:14] I appreciate it.
[3:16] It's like I really was, I don't usually do that part of my hair, but I really found myself just like pushing it up and out, just trying to give it something.
[3:26] Can I say this is a three, my mullet is a three-year commitment.
[3:29] It is.
[3:30] It's not a morning of.
[3:31] To be honest, I would have come out earlier if my mullet grew quicker.
[3:38] I was waiting for the right time.
[3:42] It's like one day you just woke up and you're like, I'm ready.
[3:44] Yeah, it's time.
[3:46] We're ready.
[3:47] We're ready.
[3:49] I think of the other bully episode where Bandit gets a mullet and everyone laughs at him.
[3:55] That's what I've been worried about.
[3:56] But I'm really...
[3:58] I don't know if this is offensive, but I wouldn't have noticed.
[4:00] I didn't notice either.
[4:01] I just thought it was, yeah.
[4:03] Mitch and I are both offended by that anyway.
[4:06] Yeah, so let's get into it.
[4:08] As Ryan said, it feels like a very special honour to have you here.
[4:14] There is so much more to Mitch Brown than the headlines you've read in the past few weeks.
[4:18] Growing up in Ballarat, Mitch spent his formative years playing basketball and footy alongside his twin brother, Nathan.
[4:24] At 17, Mitch journeyed to the other side of the country where he was drafted into the West Coast Eagles AFL team.
[4:30] His identity now solely wrapped in performance, masculinity, competition and strength.
[4:34] Mitch debuted in round one of 2007 and after missing the entire 2008 season with a knee reconstruction, was named as Rising Star in round 19 of 2009.
[4:46] Over his career, Mitch Brown became known as a footballer of immense talent and grit.
[4:50] But his greatest act of courage didn't happen on the field.
[4:53] It happened when he chose to stand before the world as his true self, becoming the first AFL player to come out as bisexual.
[5:01] In that moment, Mitch didn't just change his own story.
[5:04] He changed the story for every young person watching, wondering if there was a place for them in the game they love.
[5:10] He showed that strength is not just about putting your head over the ball, but about honesty, vulnerability and the kind of bravery that gives others permission to live openly too.
[5:19] Rich Brown is more than a footballer.
[5:21] He's a trailblazer, a role model and a reminder that the most powerful victories are not always won on the scoreboard.
[5:27] They're won in the hearts of those who finally feel seen.
[5:31] Welcome to the Imperfects.
[5:33] Wow.
[5:35] Jeez.
[5:36] Thank you, Hugh, and thank you for having me on.
[5:40] Like, just hearing that, hearing your words, I remember halfway through my career, I had another injury.
[5:50] I had multiple injuries over my football career, and I was not performing as well as I thought I should have been on the field.
[5:59] And one of our wellbeing people at the club came up to me in the corridor.
[6:03] It was just a chance passing.
[6:04] And he just said to me something so simple.
[6:07] He goes, hey, Mitch.
[6:08] And I'm like, yeah, football doesn't define you.
[6:14] And it just stuck with me.
[6:16] And that was like the turning point in my life to go, hey, I'm –
[6:21] I think there's more to life than football.
[6:23] I think there's more to life than handballs and kicks on the weekend.
[6:25] And just hearing those words, you reflected back to me and hearing you say that, you know, it's much bigger than the game or my name associated with a footballer, as footballer, is not really who I am.
[6:39] And to hear that from you is, I mean, it's really nice.
[6:43] I mean, so just to be really specific about it, like it's probably been like since like now when we're recording, it's been like a couple of weeks maybe since you came out as bisexual.
[6:54] Like you said, first ever past or present AFL player in 129 years of the competition.
[7:00] It's rare, rare.
[7:07] that you're in, what has it been like since you're on the Daily Oz and you chatted with Sam and sort of came out to the world?
[7:17] How has it been since then?
[7:19] It's been incredible.
[7:21] Overwhelmingly, the support that I've received has been positive.
[7:27] It's like Australia and almost like, I don't know, I feel so...
[7:33] I don't feel right claiming or even sharing some of the messages that I receive.
[7:38] I don't feel worthy of it, but like messages from around the world of what it means to them.
[7:45] And a question that kept coming up was like, oh, who cares?
[7:49] Normalize this.
[7:50] Who cares?
[7:51] Mm-hmm.
[7:52] And like, I agree, like it should be like a who cares moment.
[7:58] Maybe in the future.
[7:58] I'm certainly in my own friendship group and community.
[8:02] Like I'm just normal old Mitch.
[8:04] Love me who I am.
[8:07] But I can tell you, and I have countless of messages, a lot of people do care and it means a lot to them.
[8:13] And it's not so much my name or my image.
[8:17] It's what the moment represented.
[8:18] Yeah.
[8:20] around belonging, being welcomed, feeling safe to be who you are and finding your true self.
[8:31] And, you know, I've reflected on that a lot these last two weeks especially, but it's been an ongoing question for me, like who am I?
[8:41] Where do I belong?
[8:43] And now I'm, don't feel like I've a hundred percent found my true self, but my God, I'm so close.
[8:52] I mean, we're getting deep so early.
[8:54] What's the point of life?
[8:56] Point of life is love, in my opinion.
[8:58] And, um, whether it's love others, love your children, love your community, most importantly, love yourself.
[9:08] And,
[9:11] the pursuit of that is a lifelong journey.
[9:13] Yeah.
[9:14] Yeah.
[9:14] So well said.
[9:15] So, I mean, there's so much, we could spend the next hour talking about what you just said.
[9:23] It's incredible.
[9:24] Sorry.
[9:26] No, don't be sorry.
[9:27] Because I think it's such a good point that,
[9:32] you know, what you've done can so easily be interpreted as like, well, this, and it is this, but it's like this is all about being bisexual or being gay.
[9:44] But it is...
[9:46] Like who you are and having the safety to be like yourself is ultimately what's at stake.
[9:54] Yeah.
[9:55] I couldn't have said it better, Ryan.
[9:57] You did just say it better.
[9:59] Yeah.
[10:00] I came in at a close second.
[10:04] It is much bigger than coming out as a bisexual man.
[10:07] It's being comfortable and safe.
[10:13] to be who you are.
[10:14] And you know, like right now that is a privilege.
[10:18] It is a, it is a privilege to feel that way because so many people, and this is where the imposter syndrome starts to set in for me is like, I acknowledge that my journey has been relatively easy and I know people will go, no Mitch, like we're all.
[10:39] You know, we've all got our own story and it all applies to you.
[10:42] And I get that.
[10:43] But, you know, I'm a white cis man and I grew up in a town that I was tall and I could play football, I could do sport.
[10:57] I was able to fit in because of the way I looked.
[11:00] And went to a school where sport was valued highly, yeah.
[11:04] And so my journey, although I've had to suppress and hide a lot of questions that I felt, and my journey has been relatively easy compared to a lot of other people
[11:19] And, you know, I've tried to read every single message that I've received over the last two and a half weeks.
[11:28] And you read this and obviously there's been heaps of support and love.
[11:33] Well done, Mitch.
[11:34] We've got your back.
[11:35] And then there's been thousands of messages of people feeling safe enough to share their experience with me.
[11:42] Wow.
[11:42] I mean, so Mitch and I caught up last week.
[11:48] And as I met with you and Lou, and Lou's here, she's behind the curtain awkwardly.
[11:55] But we caught up and I was, you know, I was so excited to meet you in awe.
[12:01] And basically within like a couple of minutes of us sitting down, this girl who walked up and this girl, I don't know how old she would have been, maybe in her 20s.
[12:12] And she was so excited to see you.
[12:15] And she said she's not a football fan, but she's told you how much it meant.
[12:21] Like it was so brave of her to come up to you like that.
[12:24] She came up to you and told you how much it meant to her that you did what you did.
[12:29] She clearly felt so seen and acknowledged in a way that maybe she hadn't felt before.
[12:35] I don't know.
[12:36] And she gave you a letter.
[12:38] and annoyingly, he didn't read it on the spot.
[12:40] I really wanted to know what that letter said.
[12:41] I've got it here, actually.
[12:42] Oh, you have?
[12:43] Really?
[12:43] I think I do.
[12:44] Have you got all the letters on you?
[12:46] I think I do.
[12:49] Oh, my God.
[12:50] So she'd written – hang on.
[12:51] She must have written it.
[12:52] Just hoping she'd bump into you.
[12:54] I don't know.
[12:55] Must have.
[12:55] I think she was just – Oh, she saw you.
[12:57] I think she was just chilling in the cafe.
[12:58] Yeah, and wrote it out.
[12:59] And wrote it.
[13:00] Yeah.
[13:00] Do you want me to share it?
[13:01] Yeah.
[13:02] It says, thank you.
[13:04] You are making the world a better place.
[13:06] Thank you.
[13:07] We, the community, need more people like you.
[13:11] Your kids are so lucky to have such a good role model.
[13:16] Oh, man.
[13:18] Make me shake.
[13:19] Yeah.
[13:19] You know, when someone reveals themselves or shares on such an emotional level, you can't help but connect with them on that same level.
[13:31] It's almost like.
[13:33] this human experience that I commit to about opening up to these experiences.
[13:42] And so you do that and you like this person that I've met for the first time, I felt like I've known them for my whole entire life.
[13:50] Yeah.
[13:51] I'm wondering if we could go back a bit.
[13:52] I mean, people may not know that you're, you are an identical twin.
[13:56] Yeah.
[13:58] There's someone out there that looks like me that's probably getting a lot of love at the moment.
[14:02] Although he doesn't have the mullet.
[14:04] Yeah, I was about to say, he's mullet.
[14:05] No mullet.
[14:06] He's not like us.
[14:07] No, not as cool.
[14:09] Just slow down here.
[14:10] He's a legend.
[14:12] I mean, if you're a twin or you're, you know, brothers and –
[14:16] I think you can sort of empathise with this, but especially with a twin, when you look the same, you choose to have the same friends.
[14:24] You are in the same class at school.
[14:27] For our 12 or 13 years of primary school and high school, there was only one year we weren't in the same homeroom.
[14:35] Wow.
[14:36] So you grow up with this experience.
[14:41] My best friend and someone that, you know, you look up to and you start being a brand almost, I think, for identical twins, especially ones that are tall and, you know, started to be okay at sport and a few things.
[14:55] You became the brown twins.
[14:57] Like the psyche behind twins is incredible.
[15:00] Nathan and I used to talk about it.
[15:03] from a young age, we would downplay ourselves or blow up our activity or, you know, if we were playing a basketball game together, if I played a good game, I would only feel okay if Nath played a good game as well.
[15:20] So there's this whole other load or burden you're taking on as an identical twin, constantly comparing myself to my twin and how that...
[15:32] has been related to the way I talk about myself.
[15:36] It must be because I'm just thinking back to primary school with some identical twins in my class, Hayes and Chase.
[15:44] And I say Hayes and Chase because I realised that for like primary school, I feel like I never said their name separately.
[15:51] Yeah.
[15:51] And then there were these footy playing twins, I can't remember the surname, who played in a school when I was in high school, opposite school.
[15:58] And it was like you only ever saw them together and you only ever thought of them as a tall, footy-playing twin combination.
[16:07] It must be really hard to have an individual identity as a child twin.
[16:12] Like it's what I felt and that's why, I mean, I felt like I didn't have my own identity and in my environments I had two...
[16:24] masculine brothers and one being my twin brother and you're in the country and then you go to an all-boys school, which is an ultimate hyper-masculine environment for young teenage boys where
[16:38] the ideal of what it means to be a young man is strength, the physical sense of strength, being stoic, certainly not crying.
[16:50] And, you know, we've come a long way in breaking down those barriers and you guys have done so much in that space to help that.
[16:58] But for me, remember, this was years and years ago, and you start to build a brand and then people do compare you against your brother and you're like, well, I don't want to say anything else or feel that I could be anyone else because I'd feel I'd stray from the brand too much.
[17:18] The way I started to see myself to my twin brother was despair,
[17:24] I haven't actually heard that terminology much before, but can you just clarify what you mean by being a spare?
[17:31] So the reference is like there's out of any two people, especially twins or brothers, there's an heir and there's a spare referencing William and Harry in the royal family.
[17:43] So for me, I consider myself a spare to my twin brother, who's the heir.
[17:48] It's really a story around hierarchy and power and the relationship in that.
[17:54] And I do feel second best in that.
[17:59] you start to take your throne as the spare and accept that.
[18:04] And, you know, it becomes less sad and just the way of living.
[18:10] And then you take that way of living into your workplace and your other communities, not just with your relationship with your brother and you become this spare suddenly in other aspects of your life.
[18:23] All you want to do as a spare is not be that and step up and, um,
[18:27] to do that, you do what your environment is around you to belong.
[18:32] And for me, it was, you know, in a hyper-masculine environment.
[18:36] And when you start doing certain actions, being what is perceived to be a good man, be strong, don't show emotion,
[18:49] lead from the front, you start doing those things to belong, even though that they really don't connect to who you are.
[18:57] Yeah.
[18:58] The dopamine hit of the environments, the hypermasculine environments that I was around started to feel nice.
[19:05] Yeah.
[19:06] You start to commit to that.
[19:07] Like you're doing it right.
[19:08] Yeah.
[19:09] To belong, yeah.
[19:09] And you start to commit to it.
[19:12] And I did.
[19:13] People that hide things away –
[19:16] or don't, you know, don't feel confident or they're anxious.
[19:22] We are the best of not showing that and making it feel like you belong, even though you don't.
[19:31] And I had this like this feeling in my chest all the way through playing football.
[19:37] I didn't know what it was.
[19:38] I just thought it was weakness.
[19:40] I genuinely thought it was weakness and it was like here, right in front.
[19:44] I could like, it's like a physical response.
[19:48] And there was no way for me sharing that, not with anyone.
[19:52] Not even your brother?
[19:53] No.
[19:54] And especially not coaches.
[19:57] Yeah.
[19:58] Because I thought that weakness –
[20:00] would affect my selection in the team, my place to belong.
[20:04] Yeah, yeah.
[20:05] And because I didn't know how to describe it as well.
[20:10] And now I do, and that was anxiety.
[20:12] Anxiety driven by the fact that you felt like you were playing a part of someone that you weren't.
[20:22] I didn't belong, yeah.
[20:23] And I knew I didn't belong and I was trying to belong.
[20:26] And the fakeness of that...
[20:30] just didn't feel right.
[20:33] And I had a physical response to that.
[20:35] And I learned to live with that, as a lot of people do.
[20:38] I'm just wondering about the levels of homophobia within whether it's a country town in Australia or an all-boys school or footy clubs.
[20:47] I mean, you must have been exposed to a lot of homophobia and maybe even sort of went along with it if you're trying desperately to just fit in.
[20:58] I mean, you do have this question a lot.
[21:01] It's like, you know...
[21:03] through your lifetime, did you know that you were, you know, a bisexual person or you were like a little bit different to a heterosexual man?
[21:16] And like those moments popped up.
[21:20] But because of the environments that I was around, like I just like jammed them down and hid them away.
[21:29] And then you start to lie to yourself and you become really good at lying to yourself and to others that you start believing that and it becomes your reality.
[21:39] So, you know, I've, you know, like I've been homophobic for sure.
[21:47] And that's like, it might be hard for really people to understand that, but in a way to fight those feelings, um,
[21:57] it felt good to be the opposite.
[22:00] And, you know, my time at high school, certainly at an all-boys school when there is just boys, the word gay would be thrown around every day to belittle someone and you participate with that.
[22:16] You know, like I'm not going to shy away from my past and my history.
[22:22] Like I participated to fit in and...
[22:26] And most of that time I didn't know that I was going against who I was or, you know, maybe it made people in my class or my peers that were,
[22:42] in the queer community feel unsafe and, and you just don't have that empathy.
[22:48] And I'd be the first one to admit that.
[22:50] Yeah.
[22:50] Like we're not perfect and I'm not the perfect bisexual man for sure.
[22:56] I'm going to get things wrong and, and that, but I commit to learning as well.
[23:01] So I think it's a good thing to, it's such a great thing to acknowledge because there's, I'm sure there's,
[23:06] countless men who have been homophobic because of the exact same reasons and now feel like because of this character that they've played and this character that works for them and that has been accepted by their community, they feel like, well, there's no way I can –
[23:22] I can change this character now.
[23:24] If I change my character now, then I might lose my job.
[23:28] I might lose my friends, all these things.
[23:30] And that's like understandable fears.
[23:32] But what you've done is, and to acknowledge your past homophobia at school is to prove that you can change your character.
[23:45] You can evolve.
[23:47] Yeah.
[23:47] And I mean, I remember I used to say that, you know, leopards can't change their spots.
[23:52] you know, once this, always this.
[23:55] And, you know, I just categorically disagree with that now.
[23:58] It's like if you can't let people develop and grow and learn, it's like what does that say as you as a human?
[24:07] I would never know you used to be a leopard.
[24:09] I would never know.
[24:12] I'm a leopard now at home with my sons.
[24:14] They play animals.
[24:17] I can't change what I've done in my life.
[24:22] I wish I could, but then I don't wish because I'm a sum of all my experiences, good or bad, and that equals someone today that I'm really proud of.
[24:35] It's like it's actually okay for things to take years for you to work it out, and that's your pace.
[24:42] And, you know, I believe it's still okay for me to go, you know,
[24:50] The actions in my past, oh, yep, that's not okay.
[24:54] What have I learned from it now?
[24:57] You know, that's why, you know, some people go, you know, looking back, don't look back, don't look back, no regrets.
[25:03] But I think there's something special and powerful about looking back and how you look back and owning things.
[25:12] Can we go back?
[25:14] When did you start thinking about the way you felt or who you really were?
[25:18] And was there a time that you tried to talk to someone about it?
[25:22] Do you have a memory of the first time you tried to speak about any questions you had?
[25:26] I mean, the first time was to a teammate when I was playing at the Eagles.
[25:33] It was the first time I spoke the words.
[25:36] How old were you at that point?
[25:37] 17.
[25:37] 17, okay.
[25:38] Wow.
[25:39] And how did that go?
[25:44] the memory for me, I felt so comfortable.
[25:47] All my barriers are down.
[25:49] I felt really comfortable.
[25:51] I've settled in.
[25:52] I just asked a question.
[25:54] I was like, how do you know?
[25:55] How do you know if you're gay or how do you know if you like men as well as women?
[26:03] Am I that?
[26:03] Am I?
[26:05] And then it was immediately turned into a joke and a,
[26:13] a bit of a like, oh, you're being so weird and funny, Brownian.
[26:17] And then I was like, I had this moment, this, like if you look at this worm, you see those worms on the election debates, this finding yourself to burying yourself.
[26:29] It's like, oh, I'm finding myself here.
[26:31] I'm going to share this moment with someone who I feel safe with to a comment, a really innocent comment of turning it into a joke
[26:42] My worm just went, let's bury that and let's not live...
[26:47] I tried and I didn't like that.
[26:48] That didn't go well.
[26:49] Yeah.
[26:50] That's an incredibly brave and vulnerable thing to bring up to a teammate at that time.
[26:58] I shared the story two weeks ago.
[27:01] I shared this particular story and he obviously heard it and I didn't use any names or anything.
[27:07] He knew.
[27:08] And he reached out.
[27:09] Such a beautiful message.
[27:10] Are you comfortable sharing it?
[27:13] Yeah, I can share it for sure.
[27:14] Yeah.
[27:15] So this is the day after it all came out.
[27:21] Hey, mate, truly brave for speaking out.
[27:24] Can't imagine the courage it took to do that.
[27:27] I just watched part one.
[27:30] I'm so sorry for how I handled the question you asked in 2007.
[27:36] I'm so ashamed knowing that my response made you feel that way.
[27:42] and then stopped you from being open again for so long.
[27:47] And then I wrote back to him, thank you so much for reaching out.
[27:51] Absolutely no need to apologise.
[27:53] I don't hold anything against you.
[27:56] You were one of my best mates and helped me through so much.
[27:59] Your support and friendship did more for me than anyone else could in that time.
[28:05] And then he wrote back, thanks mate, I really appreciate you not holding a grudge.
[28:12] I feel terrible for how ignorantly I responded, and that's why I think you've done such a great thing by coming forward to help educate people.
[28:21] I hope the AFL uses your experience for education.
[28:24] I like to think if I'd watched an interview like yours from a player at the AFL-PA first year's induction camp, I would have shown a lot more respect and empathy.
[28:36] Wow.
[28:37] Oh, my gosh.
[28:39] Well, there it is.
[28:41] Like that is it.
[28:44] That's what it's all about.
[28:46] And those messages, you know, those have been the hardest to read.
[28:50] Really?
[28:51] I just feel so sorry that they created an environment for me where I couldn't be myself, which is bloody incredible, to be honest, the self-awareness.
[29:04] Like my Eagles teammates, the club, have been so amazing
[29:10] But there is a sense of sadness for a lot of people, including my twin brother who has known me since, you know, our egg split in mum's womb.
[29:23] Hi, mum.
[29:25] That's a very funny mum shout out.
[29:29] I will never forget the egg split, will we?
[29:32] People used to call us half egg brown, but I'm only half an egg.
[29:37] I've known him the longest and to then reveal to him something about my identity that really is the core.
[29:51] Actually, I'll rephrase that, is one part of my core because my sexuality is only one part of me.
[29:59] that he didn't know and more to the point that he felt 36 years of me feeling embarrassed or shamed to speak to him about it.
[30:14] He felt responsible for that.
[30:17] And, um, but.
[30:20] Yeah, that was really a hard thing to talk about.
[30:27] Again, I go back and forth of being so selfish in this as well.
[30:30] It's like I've come out and I get those moments of, oh, no, I've sort of made this about myself and I haven't really thought about the impact on my family or my friends or whatever.
[30:45] or people that I haven't even considered because I went with my heart and just went with that.
[30:52] And I never considered all these other aspects that come along with it.
[30:57] And I feel so selfish that I didn't do that.
[31:01] But then without doubt, having being honest and truthful, even if it sometimes hurts someone, without doubt, it deepens the connection and that's what I crave.
[31:15] Yeah.
[31:16] Going forward.
[31:16] Yeah.
[31:17] Well said.
[31:19] Something that I've been thinking about as you've been talking is that it seems to me like you only Catholic school, was it Catholic Boys School?
[31:27] Yeah.
[31:29] AFL Footy Club.
[31:32] For so much of your life, you've really only been exposed to one singular version of what it is to be a man.
[31:40] That might work for some guys, for a few people out there.
[31:45] It's something I'm very passionate about and one of the reasons...
[31:49] I'm so passionate about the show that we do is just showing how infinite types of...
[31:56] There are infinite ways to be a man or a person, but in this case, a man.
[32:02] Looking back at some of the behaviours that you regret, I think, how could you do anything else?
[32:10] Especially when this...
[32:12] when you feel like something's not right and the only option in front of you is to be this to like there's one thing to hold on to that will make it hopefully feel right if you can just get that right that behavior right yeah and i like i've had incredible role models in my life one in particular is my dad and there's a reason why i'm able to sit here right now today and it's the amazing role models that i had and
[32:38] One thing that the greatest gift that dad gave to me certainly wasn't my right foot.
[32:44] I couldn't kick.
[32:46] I didn't want to be the one to say it.
[32:49] But the greatest gift dad gave to me was emotion.
[32:54] Wow.
[32:56] He made it okay to cry.
[33:00] I remember one time...
[33:02] when I was three years old and I, it's so funny because like you can, no one can remember that, you know, they're themselves at three.
[33:08] Then I remember looking up, um, dad was having a conversation on the phone to his mother, um, and seeing dad in tears and they weren't happy tears.
[33:23] And, you know, that is a lasting imprint in my mind to see my idol, um,
[33:33] have so much emotion, and even if it was not happy emotion, it was sad emotion to see that vulnerability, him sitting there in that chair, was a moment that really helped shape me in being okay and accepting of emotion as well.
[33:49] I mean, there's one time, there's this experience I had when I was 14 years old, 15 years old, and I was at a basketball camp,
[34:02] And all I wanted to do was fit in.
[34:06] But I remember this only came up for me only a year or two ago.
[34:10] And I'm okay, ultimately okay with sharing this.
[34:14] And I haven't shared this a lot, to be honest.
[34:17] So...
[34:19] But I think it's really important because I know that this will speak to a lot of people, whether you've been on the receiving end or the perpetrator.
[34:31] I mean, this happens and it still does to a lot of young people and grown-ups as well.
[34:38] But for me in this experience...
[34:41] I was young, I was vulnerable, I was staying at the boarding house of the school overnight and these top-agers came and grabbed me and carried me into a room and I was like,
[35:05] held me down and I still, I can, I can smell the, the mattress and the feeling and the touch and that the hand on my head pushing me down and the people around me laughing as someone was doing, um,
[35:33] putting his genitals on my face and I thought that I thought it was okay and I thought that this is finally in with this guy and like I think about that Mitch right now and I'm like, it makes me so sad that I couldn't tell you like that's not okay or
[36:04] And I know that speaks to a lot of people.
[36:09] And I walked out of that room feeling like I belonged.
[36:16] And that makes me feel sick.
[36:19] And I went on with my life thinking that that was okay.
[36:27] And not knowing how that may affect me or will affect me going forward in my life.
[36:34] the extreme sense of trying to fit in or please people and to do whatever needs to be done to get that sense of feeling.
[36:46] And I don't, like, I don't blame any of those guys for sure.
[36:51] I don't like, it's not about that.
[36:53] And I almost blamed the role models in their life for them to think that that was okay.
[37:02] This is probably the kind of thing you say at the end of an interview.
[37:04] I just want to say it now, that you are really incredible.
[37:06] And that sharing that is – it's extraordinary.
[37:10] And thank you.
[37:11] And I think there's probably a lot of men listening to this reflecting on their experience in sporting clubs.
[37:18] I played in cricket and footy clubs for more than half my life.
[37:21] And there are things coming to mind now of like – it's sort of part of this culture of just –
[37:30] I don't know, men.
[37:31] It's almost like if you can hack it, you're part of the club or something.
[37:35] Yeah, it's like for me, it's like I see my beautiful, innocent boys and know that they will grow up loving sport and being in these environments and being in that situation and thinking that behaviour is okay and –
[37:59] And that's why I feel okay the last two weeks coming out and telling my story and opening myself up and opening up my beautiful partner, Lou, to this as well because of those two boys and helping to make the future or the future friends around my two boys safe and safe
[38:29] Yeah.
[38:30] I've, uh, yeah, I've got a five year old and a three year old, two boys as well.
[38:36] Um, and it's the first thing, first thing I thought of is that the thought of them being in that situation and, and, um, justifying it to themselves as an okay thing.
[38:46] Uh, and then therefore not telling me and keeping it to themselves is just, um, it's too much to, it's, it's, uh,
[38:56] I think I just want to thank you for being brave enough to say it out loud because the more light shed on that kind of stuff, the better.
[39:04] So it doesn't happen again.
[39:07] Yeah.
[39:07] Thank you.
[39:09] Yeah.
[39:11] I don't know that it was – and again, this goes back to maybe people will listen to this and go, Mitch, hey.
[39:23] Why didn't you tell us?
[39:25] Why are you holding on to this?
[39:26] And I'm sorry, but I didn't know at the time and I would have told you and you did provide a safe space for me.
[39:37] And I'm speaking about mum and dad because I don't want them to think like,
[39:45] that they didn't give me the best child because I had the best and that's why I'm here today.
[39:50] And you just don't know.
[39:54] But what happens is it's still, even though you don't know that things are right or wrong, they still shape you.
[40:00] You don't even know it.
[40:01] So, you know, in times where I have my mental health and I've been at the dark places, especially last year and places where I'm...
[40:13] battle with anxiety and just don't, you can't explain it.
[40:17] You can't explain why you're like this and then wish you could go back, but can't go back.
[40:22] And, but you can go forward and you can stick your feet in the ground and look around you and look at the people right in front of you and just be the best you can and give them a big hug and tell them you love them every day.
[40:43] and what they mean to you.
[40:45] I mean, this is so much more than coming out as a bisexual man for me.
[40:51] It's about honoring who you are, who you're meant to be.
[40:56] And I think that the pure act of trying to find your true self is being your true self.
[41:08] Chasing it just brings so much love into your life.
[41:13] That was very well said.
[41:15] Really, really incredible.
[41:17] Incredible.
[41:20] We're going back a little bit here, but how did you come out to your brother?
[41:24] I didn't get the chance to tell him.
[41:27] Oh, right.
[41:28] Someone else did.
[41:29] Oh.
[41:30] Someone took away an opportunity to connect with my brother and not just share about my sexuality, but share and connect about
[41:44] a life full of connection to each other and not knowing parts about each other.
[41:50] It almost robbed me from that conversation.
[41:53] And I can still have that now, but he was sent a screenshot from someone else, um, from a dating app that I was on and, um, which states my sexuality as a bisexual man.
[42:09] Um, and that's how he found out.
[42:11] Mm.
[42:12] So did he reach out to you having been told that or did you, next time you see him, he brought it up or what?
[42:17] I'm just interested in.
[42:19] He reached out having been told.
[42:22] I love my brother to death and, um,
[42:26] the way that experience made me feel, it wasn't about Nath.
[42:33] It was about the person who shared that with him.
[42:37] Awesome.
[42:38] And around respect and privacy.
[42:43] And I will always commit to meeting people where they're at.
[42:49] So I do get mad and frustrated.
[42:51] Like I got disappointed and sad and frustrated with my brother and the person who told him.
[42:57] I do battle with anger in that sense.
[42:59] I'm like, oh, man, I just wanted to rip through my brother's,
[43:08] Because I was like, hey, who was this person?
[43:10] I need to talk to them.
[43:12] I need to let them know that this wasn't okay to share this.
[43:16] And then they didn't want to tell me this person's name.
[43:22] so mad in the moment.
[43:23] I was like, but I do ground myself and go, hang on, no, like what's the point of trying to make things change if you're not willing to meet people where they're at.
[43:37] I mean, empathy is so huge with this as well.
[43:41] Obviously around homophobia and sporting crowds and towards players and towards staff members, um,
[43:50] there's this lack of empathy and you have to honor someone else's experience or the way that they think, shoes that they walk in.
[43:59] You have to.
[44:02] And so those moments where I get mad at my brother or,
[44:07] others, I do tie back into that.
[44:09] I'm like, hang on, hang on.
[44:11] This is, you know, this is, this could be the, the upbringing that, you know, they have had or the cultures they're around.
[44:17] And it's like the moment of the basketball camp.
[44:19] I don't blame those boys.
[44:21] I blame, I blame the role models and the culture and the hyper masculinity environments we've had here in Australia for such a long time, such a long time.
[44:32] Yeah, that's another really tough one to talk about.
[44:37] You're doing so incredibly well.
[44:39] So one of the really powerful moments in the interview you did with the Daily Oz was reading out a message, a text message that you got from Shay, your ex-wife.
[44:51] Very loving, very supportive.
[44:54] I'm interested to know about that relationship when it started and how that sort of felt for you.
[45:02] So I met Shay.
[45:02] Shay's, for people that don't know, she's also or was a professional athlete, a netballer.
[45:09] And we met over in Perth.
[45:12] So you were like 17 when you met, is that right?
[45:14] 19.
[45:15] 19, okay.
[45:16] So it was a couple of years.
[45:17] Okay, yeah.
[45:19] And then we got together and...
[45:22] You know, we got engaged at a young age.
[45:27] So now I was 25, I think.
[45:31] Shea was 24 and then we got married a couple of years later and we had nine years, ten years of marriage.
[45:38] We have two little beautiful boys together and, I mean, Shea –
[45:45] our relationship, you know, he had a lot of ups.
[45:48] And for Shay and I, you know, we separated at the start of last year.
[45:54] We made decisions together and it's really hard to put the words into this, but for me to be the best partner or to have the most pure relationship with Shay, be the best father to my boys or our boys,
[46:11] I needed to find myself and let that person free.
[46:18] And I was my worst enemy in my marriage.
[46:22] The people pleasing, the worry of disappointing my partner, disappointing Shay,
[46:35] You know, the lies I spoke to be able to not let her down.
[46:42] I created this beast of me keeping so much inside.
[46:48] I just wish I was more honest on how I felt.
[46:56] And to a point now I'm still reflecting is like I think
[47:01] Shay and I's chapter together started and ended on how it was meant to be in a beautiful way.
[47:09] And Shay's on her journey and I'm on mine.
[47:13] And since we've separated, it hasn't been all red roses.
[47:18] And please don't look to us as the co-parenting gurus because we're not that.
[47:24] But we've been okay to sit in our awkward place.
[47:31] frustrating silence, talk it over.
[47:36] And the one thing that we always did in our separation is to put our boys first.
[47:43] And that allowed us to make so many correct decisions.
[47:49] And it's ultimately formed this amazing family that we all have now
[47:56] with our two boys, my partner Lou, Shay, and Grace.
[48:02] Grace is a friend of both Shay and I.
[48:05] We're just one big family and families look different.
[48:09] And during a separation, what really got to me was the amount of projection that was bestowed upon me around you're going to...
[48:23] muck up your kids.
[48:24] You're going to stuff up your kids.
[48:25] Your kids are going to have traumatic challenges in the future that really affect their growth and who they are, the people, you did this, you're doing this, you need to go back and fix it.
[48:39] And I just, they made me so upset.
[48:43] They really got to me.
[48:46] because I was doing this for our kids.
[48:49] I was connecting to who I was, who I am, my true self.
[48:56] That's for my kids.
[48:59] And I really believed that and people couldn't understand that.
[49:03] And that was a bitter pill to swallow.
[49:05] And, you know, I did the brave thing, even though that it was going to hurt a lot of people and confuse a lot of people.
[49:17] did it for me and our boys and ultimately Shay too.
[49:25] Hugh sort of referenced it before, but I think in light of everything you just said, for those who haven't heard the message you got from Shay on the TDA podcast, I think if you don't mind rereading it now, I think it would be a beautiful example of exactly what you're talking about.
[49:40] Yeah, so I got this message the morning I decided to come out publicly.
[49:48] So this is from Shea.
[49:50] Good luck this morning.
[49:53] I'm so proud of you and right behind you all the way.
[49:58] In my opinion, this will make the world a slightly better place for our boys and young men in Australia, hopefully old men too.
[50:08] This is living the values of the kind of man I want our boys to grow up to be and proud of who they are.
[50:16] Love, Shay.
[50:17] Amazing.
[50:19] That's so good.
[50:20] You mentioned earlier Lou.
[50:23] Fortunately enough that Lou is here today as well.
[50:26] What her breath of fresh air Lou was when she walked into the room.
[50:31] She seems bloody awesome.
[50:32] Could you tell us about Lou?
[50:34] Yeah, she's not bad.
[50:37] Lou's been single-handedly the most and the biggest reason ever
[50:43] why I've become so connected with myself.
[50:49] You know, after football, like I said, I've slowly found my people and my community and I found Lou.
[50:56] And Lou's always known about my sexuality.
[51:02] And, you know, it's been really confusing for some people and the questions that we've had about our relationship since it came out publicly recently.
[51:14] including loved ones, you know, does Mitch see men on the side or how can you control his urges?
[51:20] And it's like, well, how do you control your urges?
[51:25] You're in a monogamous relationship with a woman.
[51:28] I'm talking to a man here, but you're in a monogamous relationship with a woman.
[51:33] I mean, you might have urges or find another woman attractive.
[51:37] It doesn't mean you're going to act on it.
[51:39] I love Lou and I just...
[51:43] really comfortable in what I like and who I am.
[51:48] And I'm really secure in my love for her.
[51:54] And there's not much more to that.
[51:57] You know, it is confusing for both men and women in a relationship.
[52:04] And this has been another experience.
[52:07] huge amount of messages that I've received from bisexual men that are with a woman, mostly in a married relationship that have reached out to me and said, Hey, I don't know how to tell my partner.
[52:22] I'm very fearful that she's going to leave me or how she will feel, um, or, you know, vice versa.
[52:31] I don't know what to do.
[52:32] I feel you.
[52:34] I see you.
[52:35] And it's so common.
[52:38] More than people think.
[52:40] Do you mind explaining for people, I can imagine people hearing that there are many men in marriage with a woman and they haven't told them that they're bisexual.
[52:53] I can imagine a lot of people responding to that by going like, well, if you're in a happy marriage with a woman, why do you need to say anything?
[53:00] You know, what's the point?
[53:02] Yeah, and we've had a lot of that.
[53:05] So why did you start to come out?
[53:06] You're like, what's, you're straight presenting, you're with a woman and-
[53:11] Like what?
[53:12] Some people even questioning it's even real.
[53:14] Like my sexuality is real.
[53:22] If the weird and the wacky and the kinks, if you feel like you can't share that with your partner, then you're not revealing your true self.
[53:34] And what starts to happen, and in my experience, is the seed of resentment starts to grow.
[53:40] From your side?
[53:42] Yeah, from me.
[53:43] Yeah.
[53:43] Or the person, and it grows into something bigger to go, well, you've just trapped me and you haven't been able to, I can't be myself around you.
[53:52] Or you're like, the resentment shows up in another form of frustration or anger or anything else.
[54:00] So...
[54:02] Like why not test it or, you know, tell people your true self.
[54:11] And I acknowledge that that's really hard and there's aspects of safety around that as well.
[54:17] But I do challenge people to work towards that because, you know, if I like something so weird and I'm ashamed of it, I can't share that with my most closest person, then I'm not being myself and I'm going to resent that later on.
[54:30] You sort of feel like you're still playing this character.
[54:32] Yeah.
[54:32] You're wearing this mask.
[54:34] And Lou, the special part about Lou, she's challenged me on that and she's encouraged me to show my true self and...
[54:42] I was really scared and fearful of her reaction to that.
[54:45] And her reaction matters.
[54:46] And every time I showed a little bit about myself or she showed a little bit more about her and we showed each other that, hey, that's so cool.
[54:56] I love that for you.
[54:58] It brought us closer.
[54:59] If you and I have three couple values, that might be a bit nerdy, but we do.
[55:05] Wow.
[55:06] The first ones, yeah.
[55:08] pretty normal.
[55:09] I mean, but it's really important communication, honesty.
[55:15] Um, doesn't matter what it is, just be honest.
[55:18] And there's been moments in Lou and I's relationship where I've had to be like so vulnerable and so honest and I'd be sweating sharing that.
[55:28] And then it just brought us so much closer together.
[55:30] And if I keep doing that habit,
[55:35] As a people pleaser, I would go against that grain of saying the scary thing to someone that I love.
[55:43] It makes me feel safer and it feels so good to tell the truth.
[55:48] The second one is be each other's biggest fan.
[55:52] Yeah.
[55:54] Like I have this image of the Olympics of this high jumper or this pole vault.
[55:58] I can't remember.
[55:59] It was a jumping thing.
[56:01] And the partner was there just with all the face paint on the flag, just giving it everything.
[56:07] And I was just like, if you're not willing to be the front row in that theater every day, that show to see your partner on that stage and just think the bloody world of her or him or them,
[56:24] a beautiful thing and I just love that to know that Lou's sitting here listening to me just my biggest fan and just she gave me a hug before and just kissed me and I just feel so bloody good and this is so inspiring so important, be each other's biggest fan and the last one it's a bit out there this one but abundantly raucous
[56:54] Abundantly raucous.
[56:55] Yeah.
[56:56] I've got it tattooed on me, actually.
[56:58] Here somewhere.
[57:00] Brilliant.
[57:03] Just listening to you speak, you can kind of forget you're an AFL footballer, but I just saw your arm and I remembered.
[57:09] Sorry, I don't want any excuse to get that out.
[57:14] I should have put you through the metal detector.
[57:16] We're getting guns in here.
[57:19] So what that means is, you know, that's the weird and wacky, that's not feeling guilty about, you know, seeing the sunrise after a night out even if you've got kids.
[57:31] You know, don't feel shame or embarrassed about letting yourself go and choosing fun.
[57:38] And it might be weird and wacky, but if you've got a partner in crime to do that with,
[57:44] Again, like it just feels so good.
[57:47] Incredible.
[57:49] I'm interested in – so I found myself two days ago, I was in a sauna with Isaac Croner and I nearly killed myself because it was very hot and I didn't want to get out because I stopped speaking to him.
[58:04] So, Isaac Quain on just for context.
[58:07] So, he was the victim of the homophobic slurs that happened in an Adelaide versus Collingwood game a few weeks ago now, maybe a month ago now.
[58:16] And it was that thing where I was like, I can only do 15 minutes here and I think I was in there for 27 minutes because I didn't want to stop speaking to him.
[58:22] I mean, people in the sauna, they seem to be more vulnerable and you have these incredible conversations.
[58:26] He was telling me everything about what it was like.
[58:27] He ended up being booed.
[58:30] I mean, he was booed by the Adelaide crowd.
[58:34] And when you actually dig into what that actually is, it's horrific.
[58:39] I'm interested to hear how that whole thing was for you.
[58:42] And did that have a part in you saying, okay, this is ridiculous.
[58:45] I'm going to say something here.
[58:48] Yeah.
[58:49] I've been thinking about this for a long time as well, about coming out and sharing my story.
[58:57] The reason why I haven't was because I didn't feel worthy enough.
[59:02] I didn't feel right.
[59:04] Even to a point as a bisexual man that is straight presenting, I didn't feel like it was my place.
[59:12] On another aspect, I didn't feel like I was a good enough footballer to make a difference or make a note.
[59:18] You just said to Troy, you were very good.
[59:19] I was, yeah.
[59:22] You were.
[59:22] I won all the off-field awards at the club.
[59:25] Community award.
[59:27] Best club person.
[59:28] Yeah, that was a good law crew.
[59:33] I did watch some of the commentary and I was like, I've had enough of this.
[59:40] And especially the commentary around the homophobia with that
[59:45] particular incident between Adelaide and Collingwood and, and involving Collingwood players and, you know, the perception around Isaac Quain or, um, being the target of Isaac Rankin's slur.
[59:56] And it's hard to watch things play out here, the booing and hard not to feel something.
[1:00:05] Can I spoke about the frustration and the anger and the mad you feeling mad?
[1:00:09] That was certainly a point in that, um,
[1:00:14] And I don't blame Isaac Rankin.
[1:00:17] You know, there's been five or so, six instances in the last 12 months around homophobia slurs in the AFL.
[1:00:22] I would never point out an individual.
[1:00:25] I would never do that because it's more than that.
[1:00:28] It's bigger than that.
[1:00:29] It's cultural.
[1:00:29] It's systematic.
[1:00:32] And to a point is I reached out to Isaac Rankin.
[1:00:38] Hmm.
[1:00:40] And so the player, the Adelaide Crows player, that was behind the homophobic slur, the reason why I reached out is I watched him on screen apologising for what he did after he went away and came back from overseas.
[1:01:02] And I could feel, I can feel the hurt and the heaviness on him.
[1:01:08] And...
[1:01:10] I just wanted to let him know that it's not his fault.
[1:01:15] He's not a bad person.
[1:01:17] He's still an incredible role model.
[1:01:20] I wanted him to know that.
[1:01:22] You reached out to him after you'd spoken to TDA, so after you came out.
[1:01:26] Yeah.
[1:01:26] And I said, I was like...
[1:01:28] I need to share this with him.
[1:01:29] Like this may mean something to the very person that most people would think that's the radical opposite of where the arch enemies, you know.
[1:01:43] And I just wanted to let him know that.
[1:01:48] He's still an amazing role model and don't forget that.
[1:01:51] And part of what I hope for my two boys and what we hope for our young people is for us to own and accept our mistakes and learn from that.
[1:02:03] There's no rocket science behind that.
[1:02:07] But don't give up on standing tall and being proud.
[1:02:13] Don't fall into being defined as, you know, the person who did the incident or the slur.
[1:02:21] It won't define you if you don't let it.
[1:02:23] So I just had to share that with him.
[1:02:25] And he wrote back.
[1:02:27] The thing that I liked what he said was the empathy and the realness of that.
[1:02:34] As in empathy towards you or to community?
[1:02:39] Well, this is a guy, right, that, you know, as an Aboriginal man,
[1:02:44] he's on the end of direct racism and non-direct, systematic racism every single day of his life.
[1:02:53] So the guy understands, he understands, what it's like, so what it feels like.
[1:03:02] He can walk in Isaac Quainauts shoes, he literally can.
[1:03:05] And I didn't want to let a good,
[1:03:10] positive male role model define himself by one incident.
[1:03:15] So I felt compelled to share and let him know it's okay and you are still a good role model.
[1:03:21] So what I am disappointed with is the culture and the system and one thing that really affected me was people –
[1:03:33] telling me that I'm shaming clubs or I'm shaming or making this about me and keeping myself relevant.
[1:03:39] I was never relevant in the first place.
[1:03:43] I was called Nath Brown's brother for a long time.
[1:03:47] And I did have the moments of frustration.
[1:03:50] I'm like, hey, you're missing the point.
[1:03:52] Like there's – like even to –
[1:03:55] for people or for organisations or for clubs to go, well, hang on, no, we're not making this about one player or this image, we're not going to share a picture of the image.
[1:04:05] I thought there would be enough maturity and, like, knowledge to go, hey, what this means bigger than Mitch Brown.
[1:04:16] It's about safety within your community and...
[1:04:19] I was disappointed that some football clubs missed that opportunity.
[1:04:26] Is there an example of a club that did it well and what did they do?
[1:04:31] Like what should a club do in that situation to show support?
[1:04:35] Yeah.
[1:04:35] So firstly, like when there's a historical statistic that says 129 years, it's like it's a bloody long time.
[1:04:47] And it is our biggest sport in Australia.
[1:04:50] And when the AFL CEO speaks out and makes a statement marking the moment and then I get a call from the Governor-General of Australia, despite what I think it is a moment in time,
[1:05:10] that, you know, you'd have to have your head in the sand not to be able to go, well, okay, this is what this means.
[1:05:16] The broader message means around safety and inclusivity in sport.
[1:05:21] And for, for some organizations and clubs not to mark that, that was, it was, it was frustrating.
[1:05:28] The ones that did it well to answer your question here.
[1:05:32] I was really proud of my own club, the Eagles.
[1:05:35] So proud.
[1:05:36] You know, they haven't been perfect either in their history.
[1:05:41] You know, look at that off-field drug culture.
[1:05:43] That was so publicly talked about at the time.
[1:05:48] But the way they wrapped their arms around me, both captains, Liam Duggan, and the captain of the women's team, both reached out to me, CEO, like everyone, past teammates.
[1:06:03] I was really proud.
[1:06:05] And they jumped straight on it and the message.
[1:06:07] The other one too is the Giants, the GWS Giants, which I'm a big fan of their social media admin anyway.
[1:06:16] But it made me, it also reflect on like the Giants and the Eagles, you know, they've, when I talk about systematic cultural problems is those are both teams, especially the Giants, that we're only have a short history.
[1:06:33] And in their short history, they came around in a time where it is more inclusive than ever before.
[1:06:40] So they can form their values from the get-go, strong values that they can align to around safety, inclusivity in their four walls and their oval.
[1:06:53] And some of the older clubs, remember, that have been around for over 100 years, two clubs having their 100 centenary years this year, there's some long systematic things in there.
[1:07:05] And I'm not just talking about homophobic behaviour or...
[1:07:08] you know, making it a safe environment.
[1:07:11] It's other things as well.
[1:07:13] But if you know you don't have an inclusive environment and you know you haven't got an environment that all is welcome, then don't publicly state that you have an environment that all is welcome.
[1:07:25] But what you could do is commit to a safer environment.
[1:07:31] And visibility is important.
[1:07:33] It is.
[1:07:34] Like I've heard and I've also thought about it myself where performative behavior, wearing a T-shirt or whatever.
[1:07:43] putting a rainbow flag in the First Nations space, putting an Aboriginal flag or a Torres Strait Islander flag, we don't want to do that because we won't want to see him as performative.
[1:07:53] But visibility matters, it does.
[1:07:57] Seeing an Aboriginal flag or seeing those rainbow colours on a lanyard for a young queer person on a train that might be scared or fearful or at the footy,
[1:08:11] It matters.
[1:08:12] It so matters around safety.
[1:08:16] So visibility does matter.
[1:08:18] In this space, we tend to look at the players and, you know, even the stat and the fact that I'm sitting here right now around being the first to openly talk about it,
[1:08:32] There has been countless of queer staff members at footy clubs.
[1:08:39] And most clubs, I think, would have it written on their walls, one club, including the fans, including the players, including the staff.
[1:08:49] And one thing that I can share is the amount of staff members that are currently working at AFL clubs now reaching out to me.
[1:09:00] and sharing their experience and fear of their job, their performance and the way that they may be perceived if they come out as a queer member.
[1:09:13] So I didn't realise that.
[1:09:15] So it's also very uncommon for even staff members at clubs to come out.
[1:09:22] I'm not sure the particulars, but the stories that have been shared with me from staff members is that they all don't feel comfortable.
[1:09:33] Wow.
[1:09:34] And it's only until after they're finished up.
[1:09:38] Even I've had a lot of venue staff members reach out to me.
[1:09:44] You're sitting there and this is where empathy comes into it.
[1:09:47] It's not just about protecting those players out in the field, but it's that young person that's sitting next to you or maybe a couple of rows back.
[1:09:55] It's that security guard that is a hyper-masculine man that looks that way, but he's got a daughter that's questioning her sexuality at home.
[1:10:06] Or the kid with the footy record.
[1:10:07] The kid with the footy record.
[1:10:08] Yeah.
[1:10:09] It's more than that.
[1:10:10] And so when clubs don't speak or represent their full community, I think they've just missed the mark so much.
[1:10:21] And –
[1:10:23] The one thing that gets me disappointed and sad and frustrated all in the same breath is the players are getting asked to put their body, their brains on the line.
[1:10:36] And the leaders, the staff members, the board, the CEOs of these clubs are demanding standards, demanding high standards.
[1:10:47] The standards that you walk past are the standards you accept and...
[1:10:50] Literally every club would share that to their players, demand that of their players.
[1:10:57] And, you know, players have lost their spot on a team or a contract because they haven't lived that value.
[1:11:06] And when you're sitting there and your leaders, your board or your club do not show those same values or accountability.
[1:11:13] Yeah.
[1:11:14] it would be flattening.
[1:11:15] It would be, for me, it would be like, one, I don't feel safe here and I wouldn't want to play with this club anymore.
[1:11:24] And, again, I'm willing to meet people where they're at, but you have to acknowledge and perception matters as well, especially our AFL clubs, such iconic community members.
[1:11:37] People look up to them.
[1:11:40] And they are a beautiful cross-section of society.
[1:11:44] And I feel that sometimes in that front office, they forget that.
[1:11:49] They really do.
[1:11:51] I really like...
[1:11:52] It's amazing just to go back onto that, you getting in touch with Isaac Rankin.
[1:11:58] It's, you know, I go to the footy a lot and, you know, I've grown up seeing players being made the villain.
[1:12:06] You know, we want heroes and villains in any story and the footy is a big story, really, ultimately.
[1:12:13] It's just like a big drama playing out and that's fun.
[1:12:16] It's fun to have a villain, fun to have a hero, but...
[1:12:19] I love you.
[1:12:20] I love you.
[1:12:23] I do love you too.
[1:12:24] But I love you reaching out to Isaac Rankin in that way because it shows how it can be done, which is like it's not getting distracted by the temptation to like, oh, this guy's done the wrong thing.
[1:12:40] Let's boo him or let's yell at him when he comes plays against our team next.
[1:12:46] But to kind of keep your eye on the prize and like, what's the greater goal here?
[1:12:50] What are we actually trying to achieve and what's the best way to do it?
[1:12:54] Because dividing is clearly not working.
[1:12:59] Yeah.
[1:13:00] And the beautiful thing about this game is there are heroes and villains.
[1:13:05] We can get there and Barry can be passionate and
[1:13:11] You don't have to like everything.
[1:13:14] And this goes in life.
[1:13:15] Like you don't have to agree with me coming out.
[1:13:19] You don't have to agree or accept two men having an intimate relationship with each other, two women.
[1:13:25] You don't have to accept that.
[1:13:28] You can be confused by that.
[1:13:29] You can be challenged by that.
[1:13:33] You can be silent on that.
[1:13:35] But the one thing I will not accept is...
[1:13:39] is not being kind.
[1:13:41] You can do that no matter what.
[1:13:43] It's kindness.
[1:13:45] And even if you're sitting there going, oh, geez, yeah, Mitch, I don't know about you, mate, but you know what, I'm going to be kind because I can do that no matter what.
[1:13:56] I don't care if I agree or disagree.
[1:13:57] I can be kind no matter what, and I'm going to show that to you.
[1:14:02] I feel like saying congratulations.
[1:14:04] It's just what you've just spoken about is so – it's just incredible.
[1:14:08] And you said at the top of the interview that you felt like the point of life is to love or love.
[1:14:14] And I want to point out a part of that is also being loved.
[1:14:18] You are much loved, obviously by the people who know you, but now by this country.
[1:14:25] And as you said before, around the world, there is so much love for you in this room and outside of this room.
[1:14:30] So you very much get the point of life.
[1:14:34] Mitch, thank you so much for joining us today.
[1:14:35] Thanks for having the space.
[1:14:37] Cheers.
[1:14:47] If you enjoyed this episode but want a little bit more, we've got some good news.
[1:14:51] We have a brand new show called A Little More Imperfects, and it's on Patreon.
[1:14:55] For a little bit of money, you'll get access to bonus episodes with Hugh, Ryan, and Josh every fortnight.
[1:15:00] Early access to live events, plus other things we haven't even thought of yet.
[1:15:03] Visit patreon.com slash theimperfects.
[1:15:06] The Imperfects is hosted and produced by Hugh Van Kylenberg, Ryan Shelton and Josh Van Kylenberg.
[1:15:12] Our executive producer is Bridget North East, assistant producer, Bella North East.
[1:15:16] This episode is edited by George Martin with music from No Mono.
[1:15:20] The Imperfects is not a licensed mental health service and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, treatment or assessment.
[1:15:27] The advice given in this episode is general in nature, but if you're struggling, please see a healthcare professional or call Lifeline on 13 11 14.

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