# Reece Conca - Tackling Male Infertility

An episode of [The Imperfects](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1476501557), 12 May 2024, 1 h 12 min.

Audio: https://enrichment.soundstack.com/4vjqq8/episode.flightcast.com/flhavquro97pbstng5h69mhj.mp3

All too often when talking about infertility, we only tell one side of the story. Traditionally in the public discourse, it has very much fallen into the category of a ‘women’s issue’. However, as our guest this week Reece Conca can all too painfully attest, 40% of infertility issues are actually male factor related. Reece Conca is a former Australian Rules Footballer, who played over 150 games for Richmond and Freemantle. When Reece and his partner Bell were finding it difficult to conceive, it took them far too long to discover that Reece has a condition called Azoospermia, which effects 1% of men - a condition where in Reece had no sperm in his semen. In this Vulnerabiltea House, Reece speaks openly and honestly about the physical and emotional toll of a fertility journey he is very much still on, the hormone injections, the surgeries and much, much more. To follow Annabelle and Reece on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@annabelleandreece See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

## Transcript

[0:00] My name's Hugh.
[0:01] I'm a co-host on The Imperfects.
[0:03] I'm the son of Sri Lankan and English immigrants, and I call Australia home.
[0:07] We at The Imperfects acknowledge the Wurundjeri people of the Kulin Nation as the traditional owners of the land on which this podcast is recorded, and we extend our respects to the elders past and present.
[0:18] I've spent much of the last decade travelling around this country sharing stories.
[0:21] In doing so, I acknowledge and pay homage to the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people's rich history of storytelling.
[0:28] I also acknowledge that whenever I talk about or practice resilience, there is no greater example than the one set by the world's oldest living culture.
[0:38] I essentially got diagnosed with what's called azospermia.
[0:41] So that's essentially the absence of sperm when you ejaculate.
[0:48] It affects maybe like less than 1% of males.
[0:52] Yeah, that hit me really hard.
[0:54] That's when it sort of all became really real that it was my issue.
[0:57] Yeah.
[1:00] The Imperfects invites you into a very safe place.
[1:07] A place where we share without judgment and drink heaps of vulnerability.
[1:18] Grab yourself a cup.
[1:21] This is the Vulnerability House.
[1:31] Well, yes, here we are in the Vulnerability House with a very, very special guest for a very, very special episode.
[1:38] Yeah.
[1:39] Yeah.
[1:40] It is the Vulnerability, we're in the Vulnerability House, but we're doing a little bit differently today.
[1:43] We are so lucky to be joined by Rhys Conker today.
[1:46] Rhys Conker is AFL footballer, former AFL footballer, who was drafted in 2011.
[1:54] Yeah, 2010 draft.
[1:56] Yeah, started playing in 2011 at the Richmond Football Club.
[1:59] Won premierships.
[2:01] I didn't win any premierships.
[2:02] So, yeah.
[2:04] Good start here.
[2:04] That's a dagger.
[2:05] That's a huge dagger.
[2:07] That's all right.
[2:08] I'd get that a lot.
[2:08] Don't worry.
[2:09] Yeah.
[2:09] I was there at the time.
[2:10] I was wondering how I got that wrong.
[2:11] I'm sorry.
[2:12] Yeah, no, that's fine.
[2:13] You're so good.
[2:13] Google.
[2:13] You should have been playing.
[2:14] Google.
[2:18] He likes to guess the buyers.
[2:21] He's done well so far.
[2:23] Then went to Frio to play for the Fremantle Football Club.
[2:27] What, you won a Brownlow?
[2:30] I think zero Brownlow votes.
[2:34] I just assumed you.
[2:35] I'm sorry.
[2:36] No, that's fine.
[2:36] Honestly, we're good.
[2:37] We're vulnerable here.
[2:40] So, okay, so I've got the premiership's a bit wrong, but here's something I know I've got right.
[2:44] You love cuddling?
[2:46] Yeah, a big cuddler.
[2:50] Cuddling as in like hugging or cuddling as in like intimate cuddling?
[2:53] Both.
[2:54] No, both.
[2:55] Probably more publicly like a hug.
[2:58] You prefer publicly cuddling?
[3:00] I was known for, yeah, throwing a few cuddles right out on the field.
[3:03] Okay, cool.
[3:04] What's the difference between a cuddle and a hug?
[3:06] That's exactly my question.
[3:07] I don't think there is.
[3:09] Oh, if I was to distinguish the two, I'd say a cuddle's probably like a bit longer, maybe a bit cozier than a hug.
[3:17] Yeah, yeah.
[3:17] Potentially.
[3:18] Like you would hug, say, your mum when you meet her, as opposed to like a full-blown cuddle that prolongs for more than just like a greeting.
[3:26] Hi, mum, how are you?
[3:27] A cuddle feels more intimate.
[3:28] Yeah.
[3:29] Or a hug's like, day, mate.
[3:30] Big hug.
[3:32] No, this is the thing.
[3:33] I believe you like cuddling your teammates a lot.
[3:36] Yeah, when I played, I was known for celebrating goals.
[3:39] Or just to train over the top.
[3:41] Yeah, training.
[3:41] Yeah, definitely.
[3:42] Because after one of a really big goal, didn't you get on the ground and spoon one of the players?
[3:49] I feel like I remember that.
[3:53] So it's really exciting to have you here because we said just at the top of the interview that this is a little bit different than usual.
[4:00] Usually the guest will come in here and they'll pick a card almost at random and they will – well, they'll pick three cards and then they'll choose a card to answer.
[4:10] we've actually sent you the cards in advance and you've had a look and you've actually chosen one in advance, which we're very grateful for because they're something that you'd like to talk about.
[4:18] And knowing vaguely what it is, we just think it's such an important topic.
[4:23] The other way we could have done it is just like you keep like picking cards until it hit the one that we wanted you to get.
[4:28] It would have taken too long.
[4:29] Yeah.
[4:30] Oh, definitely.
[4:31] I think either way would have worked.
[4:32] Sorry, before we get into the cards, I just want to say very quick, so you're now at the Melbourne Football Club.
[4:36] Go D's.
[4:37] Yeah.
[4:37] Go D's.
[4:38] As a runner, is that right?
[4:39] You're the runner?
[4:40] So, yeah.
[4:40] So, I'm runner.
[4:41] That's kind of like a side of my job.
[4:43] So, I'm actually the play development manager.
[4:45] Yes.
[4:46] Okay.
[4:46] So, slash kind of welfare.
[4:49] Yeah.
[4:49] So, I essentially look after all the guys off field development, which is really cool.
[4:54] It's a role I always wanted to get into post-footy.
[4:56] Without going into details, when did you start doing that role?
[5:01] So I finished up at Freo end of 21 and then was fortunate enough to sort of roll straight into this role not long after.
[5:08] Yeah, it's an interesting role.
[5:10] There's so much to it.
[5:11] I mean, primarily it's for their off-field development, so career development.
[5:16] setting them up for life after footy, whether it's education or work experience or whatever it is, you know, that's really the main part.
[5:24] And then I work really closely with our psych on, you know, the mental health wellbeing side.
[5:28] I've got a counselling diploma, so not quite to the psych level, but I've got enough understanding to help them with that aspect.
[5:35] And there's a whole range of other things, you know, family engagement, community involvement.
[5:39] So when these guys engage with the community and do volunteer work and yeah, there's a lot to it, but absolutely love it.
[5:46] It is.
[5:46] In all seriousness, it is such an important role, especially I look at the –
[5:51] having been at many clubs, the one that I think is really important, I mean, there's so many aspects of the role that's so important, but when you get young men turning up to the club age 18 who have never lived away from home and all of a sudden you can have players who are from interstate like yourself coming from Perth across to Melbourne, it is a huge transition to make.
[6:09] So to have someone like you to, I was going to say hold their hand, but for you, it's just, it's so important.
[6:18] Yeah.
[6:18] No, thank you.
[6:19] Because it would be quite a, if you're with a club for a long time or even just playing football for a long time in multiple clubs, when it comes to the point where you're probably not choosing to stop, you have to stop playing, that would be a very tough transition, I imagine.
[6:39] Maybe even tougher than going into the system at the start, but having to leave and then start a whole new life post-football.
[6:45] I feel like that would be very difficult.
[6:48] Definitely.
[6:48] Yeah.
[6:48] I think it's for a professional athlete, probably the hardest part of their professional career, really.
[6:53] I know it was definitely for me personally.
[6:55] And I had a lot of struggles through my footy career with, you know, homesickness early on, injury, you know, the whole lot, suspension, missing out on premierships, you know, that sort of sticks around for a while.
[7:06] So I've had to sort of work through that as well.
[7:08] And, um,
[7:10] Yeah, I think that transition post-career is so hard because you don't really know any different.
[7:14] As an 18-year-old, you're just in this footy environment.
[7:17] And admittedly, that environment is not really like the real world.
[7:21] It's kind of, it is a bit of a bubble.
[7:23] As an athlete, you kind of get looked after excessively.
[7:26] A lot of guys don't really think about life after footy, so they're not...
[7:30] actually qualified for anything when they finish and they kind of just stumble into nothing and yeah you kind of caught picking up the pieces a little bit but also the piece around like confidentiality like I emphasize that to the guys more than anything yeah so they're worried if they say I'm struggling mentally it's going to hit them at the selection table yeah definitely so and I've been through that boat and I tell the guys you know whenever I catch up with them you know whether it's individually or you know I'm up in front of the group it's like
[7:56] confidentiality is number one to me like i value it more than anything else like i've lived what you're living your mental health and where you're at as a person is absolute priority for me and the footy stuff let the coaches look after okay well we've got you in here we've got you in here to draw a card that you already know what it is so uh let's just give you the tweet just give him the card it's it's ready for you that's it okay so here's the card
[8:22] Alright, so when did your life get turned upside down and how did things change?
[8:29] Okay.
[8:30] Yeah, it's a huge question.
[8:31] We are very grateful that you have chosen that one.
[8:33] Yeah, thank you.
[8:35] It's funny because everything we just spoke about with the footy and the transitioning was actually at the same time.
[8:41] So to go to the start, my partner and I, Annabelle, had been trying to conceive naturally to have kids for quite some time.
[8:50] I think it was about 10, 11 months at that point.
[8:53] And at this point, I'm kind of realising my footy career is probably over.
[8:58] Like, I'm not getting played in the ones.
[9:00] I'm out of contract.
[9:02] And have they spoken to you about that or is it just a sense that you got?
[9:04] It was a bit of a sense.
[9:06] I sort of asked for a bit of clarity from Freemail at the time.
[9:09] And, you know, footy clubs all operate in different ways.
[9:12] So that's just sort of how it planned out.
[9:14] Without definitively knowing I was done, I sort of saw the writing on the wall.
[9:18] And then...
[9:20] Yeah, Belle and I had been trying naturally and then we're kind of like, all right, let's go to the doctor.
[9:23] Let's just get some checks, see what's going on.
[9:26] So, I mean, we went to the GP for the first time and it was just all very focused on Annabelle.
[9:33] So, docs, she's asking Annabelle all these questions.
[9:35] All right, we'll get these tests for you.
[9:37] I recommend some acupuncture, these vitamins.
[9:40] And...
[9:42] She kind of threw a couple of questions my way.
[9:44] I was like, you're healthy?
[9:45] Do you drink much?
[9:46] Smoke?
[9:47] Drugs?
[9:47] No, no, I'm healthy as ever.
[9:49] I'm a professional athlete.
[9:50] Congrats on the premierships.
[9:51] Yeah.
[9:53] She didn't miss that quite a bit, just you.
[9:56] So, yeah, we've done all that.
[9:58] All right, great.
[9:59] So now we've kind of got some potentially some solutions.
[10:01] Let's get going on this.
[10:02] So...
[10:03] Bell did all the acupuncture, the vitamins.
[10:05] We did all that for a few more months and still just wasn't happening.
[10:09] So by this point, I'd just been delisted by Fremantle.
[10:14] So I'm feeling not in a great space, really struggling anyway.
[10:18] But...
[10:21] And Belle's purpose in life is to have kids, right?
[10:25] She wanted it more than anything.
[10:26] And I was kind of quite big on, I'll have kids when I'm finished my career.
[10:30] I'm not going to be that old.
[10:32] It was more of an afterthought to me.
[10:33] I love kids.
[10:34] I've always wanted to have kids, but I wasn't in a super rush.
[10:38] And then, yeah, sort of back into 2020, I was like, you know what?
[10:41] There's never a great time to have kids.
[10:43] Let's just do it.
[10:43] If anything, it's actually great that I'm still earning decent money.
[10:47] Lifestyle is great.
[10:48] Playing footy.
[10:50] So, Belle, after a couple of months of then doing all that, Belle was sitting down.
[10:56] Belle was like, well, should you maybe get your semen tested?
[11:00] Like, go get a semen analysis.
[11:02] And I'm like...
[11:03] what?
[11:03] No.
[11:04] Like, why, like, why would I do that?
[11:05] Like, is that even a thing?
[11:06] And it was just kind of like, but Belle was very adamant on it.
[11:09] And Belle's one of those people, she's very proactive, um, really needs to have all the information.
[11:15] So she's just relentlessly Googling what could be going wrong?
[11:17] What can we do?
[11:19] So I was like, all right, I'll do this.
[11:21] Let's, if it's what you want and you think it'll help.
[11:23] Um,
[11:24] And then I put it off for weeks, like a couple of weeks.
[11:28] And it's probably only on reflection now that I'm in a much better space and I can reflect a lot clearer back through the journey now, which is great.
[11:38] I just remember like this overwhelming sense of,
[11:41] like embarrassment and shame attached to the fact that it's like, oh, I need to get the same analysis.
[11:47] Like it could be you.
[11:48] Yeah.
[11:48] It could be me.
[11:49] Is there something wrong?
[11:50] If there is something wrong, like, you know, like what do we do with that?
[11:54] Like that's so foreign, so new and so kind of unknown.
[11:57] Like, so I was still a free man or so.
[12:01] Like my doctor is the club GP and he's the loveliest bloke ever.
[12:05] I would have walked past his office 100 times over this two-week period and just couldn't bring myself to go ask him, just to literally get a reference to get a scene analysis.
[12:14] And I always go home and Bell will be like, did you ask him?
[12:17] Did you get it done?
[12:17] I'm like, no, I was too busy.
[12:19] Or like make up some excuse like, oh, he wasn't in today.
[12:22] Yeah.
[12:23] And so I'm just like, all right.
[12:25] I finally bit the bullet, walked in.
[12:26] And it was just like the easiest one-minute conversation ever.
[12:29] That's like I went in.
[12:30] I was like, hey, Jono, do you mind if I just get a reference off you?
[12:35] Bell and I, you know, we're just starting to try to conceive, but we just want to be on the front foot and get a seam analysis.
[12:40] And he's like, yeah, man, absolutely.
[12:41] That's fine.
[12:42] Wrote it up.
[12:42] Off I went.
[12:43] So I look back at that moment, I'm like, wow, like that's probably the first time that I realized, well, like I realized now that it was actually affecting me so much.
[12:53] And this is before I even know anything, like still all very like...
[12:58] We're just on track.
[12:58] Like we're just trying to conceive naturally.
[13:00] It's just taking a bit longer.
[13:01] And had you spoken to any like friends or anything about the fact that you're going to get the analysis or is this completely kept to yourself?
[13:08] Yeah, no, this is all completely just between Bill and I.
[13:12] And it was like that for quite some time.
[13:14] Yeah, I really struggled with the idea of there really being anything wrong or being my fault.
[13:20] And if there is, then, you know, what do we do with that?
[13:23] So you'd been trying for about a year when you went into the club doctor?
[13:27] Yep.
[13:27] Is that right?
[13:27] Yeah, around a year, just over a year.
[13:29] Did you, I don't know if it was just in the retelling of the story then or that you changed it, but I was really struck by the fact that you said to him, we're just starting and I just want to be on the front foot because it feels like it's sort of we're 12 months in and things aren't going well.
[13:45] Yeah.
[13:45] Did you, was that the way you framed it with the doctor?
[13:48] Yeah.
[13:48] Yeah, definitely.
[13:49] Yeah, I think that's the way I was and probably still am now is that I kind of try and, like, minimise the issue to make it sit better with me.
[13:57] Yeah, yeah.
[13:58] Whereas I've definitely got loads better with that sense of it.
[14:02] It's, like, just being more vulnerable and honest and open with what you're actually dealing with has been... Great, great use of loads.
[14:14] That's brilliant.
[14:18] Sorry, that is not the tone I'm going to take.
[14:22] No, we did that.
[14:23] No, that's fine.
[14:24] It's encouraged, don't worry.
[14:26] I'm very comfortable speaking about this topic now.
[14:28] So, yeah, so basically that all happened.
[14:33] And then I eventually got the same analysis done.
[14:36] And we got the results.
[14:37] We're actually on just a little getaway because I was still in this period of not really knowing what I'm going to do next.
[14:43] So we got away for a few days, got the results back, and it just came with, I don't know what the exact wording was, like extremely low sperm count, which is essentially zero to one million.
[14:55] You sit in that category.
[14:56] So the average mar would have tens and tens of millions of sperm that just regenerates.
[15:04] by the hour, anyway.
[15:06] And so does that, and this is a serious question, but is that a case of like how much is left or is it just like the amount that's regenerated is low?
[15:16] Yeah, so that's how much was present in that semen analysis.
[15:19] Gotcha.
[15:21] So I think in some male cases, yeah, there is eventually a point where they do run out.
[15:28] But these are all the questions that Bill and I, once we got those results, it's like, oh my gosh, like what...
[15:34] Like, what does that mean?
[15:36] Because the club doctor, he's not a fertility specialist.
[15:39] So he kind of...
[15:40] He rang me and got the email.
[15:43] I got the email as well.
[15:43] And he rang me to sort of just chat through it.
[15:45] He's like, mate, like you should probably get this checked further.
[15:48] I don't know enough about it.
[15:49] But yeah, source out a fertility specialist and go from there.
[15:54] Did it seem strange to you when you went with Bella to the JP, the other JP, that you weren't getting many questions at the time?
[16:03] Or were you kind of happy about that because you didn't want the spotlight to be on you?
[16:06] Or was it...
[16:07] odd?
[16:07] Yeah, no, definitely.
[16:08] And that's one of those things that I've now reflected back on and I've gone, well, that yeah, that seems kind of
[16:15] not the right process.
[16:16] Like it should be now that I've learned so much about this, um, you know, one of the stats that would be shocking to most is that it's around 40% of fertility journeys, a male factor related, which is mind blowing.
[16:29] Like if before I'd gone through this, if someone said that I would have thought it was almost zero.
[16:34] It was just like, you hear IVF and you just assume it's the female.
[16:37] Definitely.
[16:38] Yeah.
[16:39] So, yeah,
[16:40] Yeah, it's that experience looking back now, it's like, well, I think that potentially has to change.
[16:46] I don't know if every GP is like that, but there definitely needs to be more focus on the potential of it being male factor related.
[16:53] Yeah, absolutely.
[16:54] So, yeah, we got those results, but then not long after that, we decided to move back to Victoria.
[17:00] Belle's from Geelong, so a kind of like future plan at some point was to live down there and...
[17:06] I was going to ask when you first got that and when you spoke to the club doctor and he was like, oh, you should speak to someone, like an expert about this a little bit more.
[17:17] How did you feel about that at that point?
[17:21] Yeah, I think it was probably like instant alarm bells.
[17:25] I think the biggest struggle with it all is it's just such an unknown.
[17:30] There's just no real answers.
[17:31] You don't have any pre-educated information about male infertility.
[17:35] No.
[17:36] So for him to go, I think you should go to a fertility specialist, it's kind of like...
[17:41] okay, what even is that?
[17:42] What are they going to do?
[17:45] So there's a lot of uncertainty around it and then I'm feeling really anxious at that point.
[17:50] I'm also really aware, so we've been trying for four years now and I'll talk through that journey, but I've been seeing a psych weekly, at worst fortnightly, for years and years now and she's brilliant.
[18:03] So I'm in a lot better place now in terms of how I can emotionally regulate and be aware of how I'm feeling.
[18:08] So...
[18:09] a lot of the early parts of this journey, I kind of have to reflect back on it rather than like really being aware on how it was affecting me.
[18:16] And so, yeah, it's really cool that I'm in that place now.
[18:20] But, yeah, a lot of those questions about like how you're feeling at that point, it's like I probably wasn't in the right space to actually fully acknowledge that.
[18:29] So did you start seeing the psych off the back of this or was it something like you were already seeing one and it sort of coincided?
[18:36] No, so I'd been seeing one in Perth sort of on and off, like the back end of my career, just around a bit of, yeah, support around transition and, yeah, just what I was going to do and where I was going to be and just that struggle.
[18:50] And then we moved back to Melbourne and I sourced one closer to home.
[18:56] So I've been seeing her for probably two and a half years now.
[18:59] She's been amazing.
[19:01] So...
[19:03] Yeah, that side's been incredible because the emotional trauma that comes with this journey is just, yeah, you would never even think of how much it would affect you.
[19:12] So, yeah, basically we came and saw a fertility specialist eventually in Melbourne.
[19:17] A fertility specialist, what do they do?
[19:19] Like, I mean, other than the obvious, you know, but like, what is the actual process of seeing one?
[19:24] Like, how does, are you in an office?
[19:26] Is it like a doctor's office?
[19:27] Yeah, psychoductors office.
[19:29] So, I mean, initially they kind of just get all the tests done.
[19:33] So I did another semen analysis.
[19:35] You get all these blood tests done, not just like your normal blood tests, but testosterone, FSH levels, all these extra stuff.
[19:45] And that's essentially what came back for me.
[19:48] So I got another semen analysis and that second result came back completely zero.
[19:54] Yeah.
[19:55] So that was the one that probably hit the hardest.
[19:58] And that was, yeah, a few months down the track.
[20:02] And I remember that moment, like I got it as I was driving home from work, which was probably good timing.
[20:08] But I remember just getting home and just completely breaking down.
[20:12] Even now, just feeling a bit of that comeback now.
[20:16] And just would have cried all night, just with Belle at home.
[20:18] It's just like that was probably...
[20:21] like the real, like in terms of the getting my life flipped upside down, I feel like everything up to that point was really tough and it was challenging, but that was the moment where it's like,
[20:30] wow, this is real.
[20:32] That hit me really hard.
[20:33] That's when it sort of all became really real that it was my issue.
[20:37] And are you crying because you're thinking I won't be able to have kids or because you're thinking this is going to be a very tough road ahead of us to try to get pregnant?
[20:47] Yeah.
[20:47] No, at that moment it's like, yeah, I'm not having kids because at this point we still don't have a lot of information and clarity around it.
[20:55] That's kind of like what's next.
[20:56] But I think at that point –
[20:58] You just think worst case scenario.
[21:01] Got zero sperm on this analysis.
[21:03] And then that was kind of the one where I thought maybe I was in that boat where it's like maybe I've run out.
[21:08] Shit.
[21:09] In that period, I've now gone from however many to none and we've missed our chance.
[21:13] Is it too simplistic and crass of me to think that the first thing you would think of is all the times you've wasted it?
[21:23] Like, oh God, when I was 16, that was stupid.
[21:26] I didn't need to.
[21:27] I didn't need to.
[21:32] I should have been a bit more reluctant.
[21:35] I don't think so.
[21:37] I'm almost certain that thought didn't cross my mind until this point.
[21:40] And now it's like, well, shit, what have I done?
[21:43] It didn't cross my mind.
[21:44] I was just saying it as a joke.
[21:45] I was like, definitely, I would never think that.
[21:48] Never think that.
[21:50] No, definitely not.
[21:52] But...
[21:53] Anyway, from that, we changed fertility specialists, just weren't really feeling comfortable with who we were with.
[21:59] And we felt like it was dragging on a little bit.
[22:02] There were a lot of tests and we're kind of like, okay, so we got recommended somebody else.
[22:07] And like we just dove straight in.
[22:09] There were specialists that could actually do both sides of the fertility process, so the male and the female.
[22:18] So at that point with the zero sperm analysis, I essentially got diagnosed with what's called azospermia.
[22:25] So that's essentially the absence of sperm when you ejaculate.
[22:32] so it affects maybe like less than 1% of males so you hear that and you're like well okay it just must feel so unfair because if it's such a low percentage and like you said you and Belle wanted kids so much it's heartbreaking
[22:51] Definitely.
[22:52] Yeah, that was one of the harder things to deal with because I'm kind of naturally one of those very positive people and I've always just kind of been like, all right, that's what it is.
[23:00] Let's soldier on.
[23:01] Let's push on.
[23:02] Let's not dwell on that.
[23:03] Like no one really knows any of this at this point.
[23:06] It's just between Belle and I.
[23:08] So I'm still kind of being myself, but kind of battling with this in the background.
[23:12] Yeah.
[23:13] So there was no one else you'd told at this point?
[23:15] So at this point, no one else knew.
[23:17] Belle had just – so once we got the zero sperm analysis back, Belle told her family straight away, just her immediate parents and siblings, and then I told my family not long after that as well.
[23:31] Okay.
[23:31] Before you go on, can I delve a bit deeper into what you asked before?
[23:36] I imagine a level of feeling guilt that I'd let my partner down, but also maybe a fear of failing at what is kind of like,
[23:49] in a sort of masculine way.
[23:51] Did any of those thoughts layer in there?
[23:54] Or was it something else that was making you so emotional?
[23:56] Yeah, no, 100%.
[23:57] And I'm sure I would have touched on that at some point because they're the big ticket emotions that have just absolutely been with me through the whole journey.
[24:05] The guilt one more than anything.
[24:07] Like that just...
[24:08] latches onto you like no other emotion, I reckon.
[24:12] It's probably the one that I've had to work through the most, only because it's affecting somebody else.
[24:17] And Annabelle, the person you love more than anyone else in the world, and especially around this whole sense of purpose, right?
[24:23] Like I've done a lot of work on my purpose and my values in life.
[24:26] And for Belle, it's like,
[24:28] That's her purpose is to have kids and to be a mother.
[24:31] So it's so much more than just like the kids.
[24:34] It's like, this is what Belle's life.
[24:36] Like, this is what she wants her life to literally revolve around.
[24:39] And you're that one responsible for taking that away from her.
[24:42] So,
[24:43] Yeah, there's been a lot of guilt that I've had to work through, definitely.
[24:47] Yeah, that sense of it being really unfair has been another one.
[24:52] And then, yeah, there's a lot of around that stuff around masculinity.
[24:56] I remember even just getting one of the first blood test results back around having really low testosterone.
[25:03] And you're like, oh, shit.
[25:06] Like, what does that mean?
[25:07] You know, like, I'm a male and, like, I want to be masculine and I've been a professional athlete for so long.
[25:12] I've bashed blokes out on the ground and tackled and done all this stuff, like, but I've got low level of testosterone.
[25:17] Like, how does that work?
[25:19] So, yeah, there's been a lot of that that I've had to wrestle with and worked through and unpacked.
[25:23] And I think that's the beauty of, you know, getting the professional health on my psych, just being able to...
[25:29] teach me how to just sit really curiously with the emotions and feelings and trying to get a bit of an understanding of it.
[25:35] And when it comes up, like what is the feeling in my body that, that I'm, that I need to sit with and get to rather than just bottling it up and getting in the first distraction that, you know, whether it's your phone or PlayStation or whatever it is for each person, it's actually like just sitting in that uncomfortable feeling, working through it.
[25:53] So it doesn't actually affect you as much as what you want it to.
[25:57] I didn't expect to ask this question, but what do you mean by work through it?
[26:01] Um, just in terms of, it's more just like, so that you're not just completely ignoring it.
[26:06] So it's like actually working through that emotion.
[26:08] It's like, all right, I'm human.
[26:09] Like I'm allowed to feel this emotion.
[26:11] It's completely valid.
[26:13] Um, and then just being open with it and talking through it.
[26:17] This is why I'm experiencing it.
[26:19] Um, and then the more you talk about it, the more you can sort of understand why you're feeling that way.
[26:23] And so for the guilt stuff, it was around the purpose and, um, working through the idea that it's.
[26:30] not actually my fault.
[26:31] Like, yes, the issue lies with me, but I didn't do this on purpose.
[26:34] Yeah.
[26:35] Sort of stuff.
[26:35] So it's all that.
[26:37] So working through that's been, yeah, like really important for me and for Belle as well, because then it affects the way that I communicate with Belle.
[26:44] Yeah.
[26:45] Because that was probably one thing we struggled with early is it's,
[26:49] we're both the two people in this together, but we're both struggling.
[26:52] So how do we communicate our struggles without sort of butting heads or feeling like one person's kind of dominating more or using, taking more of the energy of the other.
[27:02] And so that's been really important.
[27:04] So, and I'm still not perfect at that.
[27:07] Definitely.
[27:07] I sort of, you know, I was probably a one out of 10 when I started seeing my psych and now I'm probably a four or five out of 10 and there's still so much growth.
[27:16] in that area.
[27:16] But I think because I've had something so significant happen to me, it's a bit more prevalent and there's a lot of strong emotions that I can work through.
[27:24] So before we get on to what happens next, I'm interested in the relationship at this point.
[27:28] I feel like when something like this happens, it can either strengthen or weaken the relationship.
[27:33] Where did it sit for you guys?
[27:35] Did this bring you closer together?
[27:38] Yeah, I'd say so, definitely.
[27:40] In terms of, yeah, the way that we communicate with each other, definitely.
[27:44] I mean, we have our moments where it feels the polar opposite, where you feel very distant and, you know, you might go at each other and, you know, there's a whole heap of emotions that come up pretty regularly, but I feel like we've become a lot better at...
[28:00] dealing with them quicker and not letting them really stew and affecting us for longer periods.
[28:06] Bill and I have kind of got this rule where, like, we'll never go to sleep angry at each other and we'll also never bring too much heavy emotion into bed.
[28:16] So it's kind of like, all right, if we do have anything that we kind of need to chat about or if you're feeling a certain way, like let's try to talk about it over a cup of tea or at dinner or whatever it is, yeah.
[28:26] Because, yeah, once you're emotionally unregulated in bed, it's very hard to come back from.
[28:32] So, yeah, that's kind of their little things that we've kind of spoken and worked through.
[28:36] But, yeah, I think it's definitely strengthened our relationship because there's also that element early on for me where it's like, well, is Belle going to stay with me?
[28:43] Because, I mean, we'd been together for quite some time when we first got the news.
[28:49] We were still quite young.
[28:50] Bell was probably 26 at the time and I was 28.
[28:55] So we're still very young.
[28:56] So that's, again, a thought that I'm wrestling with.
[28:58] It's like, well, what if Bell just pulls the pin and goes, this is too hard.
[29:01] I'm out of here.
[29:03] How long had you been together for at that point?
[29:05] So we'd been together for probably three years.
[29:07] So Bell had moved from Melbourne to Perth with me once I got traded to Frio and then I got married.
[29:13] So, yeah, we're living together.
[29:14] It was about three years by then.
[29:15] I can imagine that fear though because I think it's pretty common to have those worries.
[29:26] When you're with someone that you feel truly lucky to be with,
[29:30] there is always a bit of a, maybe, not always, but there can be a little voice in the back of your head going like, God, I'm pretty lucky to be in this situation.
[29:38] She could probably find someone just as good, if not, probably not, probably better.
[29:44] And so when you go into something like that, I can totally imagine
[29:48] having that would be that I can imagine having that anxiety as well.
[29:51] Yeah, for sure.
[29:52] So I wonder if, as far as like chronologically, if we could maybe go back to where we sort of left off.
[29:58] Yeah.
[29:58] Yeah.
[29:58] No, we can do that.
[29:59] That would be, I think I'm so fascinated to hear the process.
[30:01] Yeah, definitely.
[30:04] So we got to the new fertility specialist and so we're like, all right, what do we need to do here?
[30:10] So at this point, Bell doesn't have to do anything.
[30:12] It's all on my side.
[30:14] But the specialist we went to, so my testosterone levels were low, a few other things were a bit low.
[30:21] So to boost them up, he suggested doing some hormone injections.
[30:24] Yeah.
[30:26] which is like the equivalent to what women would use for their IVF preparation.
[30:32] So I was taking two different injections every second night, like alternatively for about six or seven months.
[30:41] So yeah, it's a help boost testosterone.
[30:43] Self-administered?
[30:43] So self-administered.
[30:45] So I still remember the first time doing it.
[30:47] It took me hours to like actually want to do it.
[30:50] And where is it?
[30:51] Into your stomach?
[30:51] So you do it into your stomach.
[30:54] and yeah, I sort of was like, oh my gosh, this is so weird.
[30:57] So anyway, so you get used to it after a little bit, like the injecting part of it.
[31:01] Is that good?
[31:02] A lot?
[31:03] Not really, no.
[31:04] It's just like getting a...
[31:06] normal injection like a blood test one but um probably slightly less than that because you go like right into like you just grab the fattiest bit you can and um which would be a struggle for you to find no not anymore not anymore i mean this was a couple years ago but um but yeah so i did that for probably six or seven months i had to do these injections and they're horrible like because they're hormonal injections it's like
[31:29] I'm feeling nauseous all the time, irritable, mood swings.
[31:34] And for me, that's so foreign.
[31:36] I feel like I'm a relatively calm level person.
[31:40] So to be feeling all this stuff is really strange.
[31:44] Were you able to associate the mood swings linked to this or was it a bit confusing at first?
[31:49] It was a little bit confusing at first, only for a little bit because then we sort of did a bit of research and the specialist sort of said like this is a potential side effect of it.
[32:00] But I probably didn't realise like how significant it would affect me.
[32:06] And so the flip side of this, like I've just started my new job
[32:10] And this role that we spoke about is like I'm fully engaged with so many people.
[32:15] Like I'm the person that people are coming to to talk about their issues.
[32:19] And I've kind of got this one going on and I'm feeling pretty crappy most days for an extended period of time.
[32:25] And I still haven't told anyone about what I'm going through other than our immediate families.
[32:30] Um, I eventually told the club doc at Melbourne who are both, they've got two doctors, um, who were brilliant.
[32:37] So some days I'd rock up to work feeling absolutely horrible and just go ask, you know, can I have like one of those anti-nausea wafers just to sort of help settle it.
[32:45] And there were a couple of days where I just had to go home or just like went to, so I told Alan Richardson, our GM of footy as well, just so he was aware of it.
[32:53] And the club were brilliant.
[32:54] Um,
[32:55] They were really supportive.
[32:56] He just sort of said, if anything you need, just go for it, which is great.
[33:00] So I just stopped coming to work for like three months.
[33:02] No, I'm kidding.
[33:03] So, but yeah, anytime I needed to go get tests or if I was feeling really average, go home.
[33:12] He was really supportive of that, which was really helpful.
[33:14] Yeah.
[33:14] But yeah, basically did all these injections, got my levels up, like kind of where they thought they needed to be.
[33:20] And then that was in preparation for an operation, which is called a microtese, where they essentially like operate on your testes to try and manually find sperm.
[33:31] Whoa, like literally going in to try and find them.
[33:36] They could be hiding somewhere.
[33:37] Yeah, correct.
[33:38] Yeah.
[33:39] So, yeah, fascinating.
[33:41] Wow.
[33:42] So, yeah, did all the prep for that, had that operation.
[33:45] I mean, having struggled with a vasectomy, that must be a really uncomfortable procedure to go through.
[33:51] Yeah, definitely.
[33:52] So, yeah, the physical...
[33:54] element of it was yeah like really tough um so the first like you walk out later that day um but it's really uncomfortable for the first few days like you're barely moving sort of house at home just couch to bed and i'm just sorry i can't just comparing you to me but you had that done and you walked out the i had the vasectomy done and i got wheelchaired out
[34:19] No, that's fine.
[34:21] The wheelchair would have been nice.
[34:24] So, yeah, so that was – I mean, I took a – I think I took a week and a bit off work, which, like I said, the club were great with just to sort of rest at home because there's even just like emotionally there's –
[34:36] you know, is this going to work?
[34:37] And so there's a lot of, you know, waiting around.
[34:40] And I imagine at this point, you're just like, I'll, whatever it takes.
[34:43] Is it just sort of a, whatever it takes mentality?
[34:45] Oh, for sure.
[34:46] Yeah, no, definitely.
[34:47] At this point, it's just like, we're in whatever we need to do.
[34:50] Definitely.
[34:51] Um,
[34:52] So, yeah, and the operation, like I was petrified going into that because it's like, oh my gosh, this is pretty invasive.
[34:58] And, you know, what if something goes wrong or, you know, what if we don't get any?
[35:03] Like there's so many things.
[35:04] And so we got the results back and they were really positive.
[35:08] So at the time we thought they were positive.
[35:12] So they found some sperm.
[35:14] And so what they did with Belle is she had her egg collection the day after my operation.
[35:20] And the ones that they found, they just fertilised her eggs straight away.
[35:25] So just to sort of like the natural, because the other option is to freeze them.
[35:29] So...
[35:32] We did that naturally.
[35:33] And from that, we got nine embryos.
[35:35] So essentially, like when you fertilize the egg with the sperm, you form an embryo.
[35:40] So this is all the cool stuff I've learned over the journey.
[35:43] And so we got nine embryos and they froze them all.
[35:47] So at that point, you're like, wow, we've got nine chances of falling pregnant, which is kind of like, well, that's amazing.
[35:57] With that, you're like, we're kind of home.
[35:59] How good is that?
[36:01] We have nine babies.
[36:02] We could have nine babies.
[36:03] They're all just sitting there, right?
[36:05] But in saying that, there's also a high chance they don't work and that's what we eventually figured out.
[36:12] So we had the nine embryos.
[36:16] We did the first one the following month.
[36:18] And so they essentially just transfer the embryo into Annabelle and then just hope that it sticks and hope that it grows and Belfort's pregnant.
[36:28] That's kind of the process.
[36:30] So did the first one, didn't work.
[36:32] Second one didn't work.
[36:34] And so we're kind of riding this roller coaster.
[36:37] It's like you kind of get a bit excited about, all right, we're doing a transfer this day.
[36:42] Belle does her, you know, the stuff she needs to do for the IVF, the trigger, and then kind of wait for a week to see if it sticks.
[36:49] Yeah.
[36:50] nah, this one's failed.
[36:51] So you kind of come crashing back down again.
[36:53] So, yeah, like just the emotions you feel there, you kind of go from like sort of a high to low and feeling really disappointed.
[37:01] And then you get this sort of anticipation that the next one's going to work.
[37:05] And we did five transfers month after month.
[37:10] So we went through five failed months.
[37:14] And is that exhausting for Belle?
[37:16] Oh, for sure.
[37:16] I mean, like what I've experienced, Belle at this point is like she's kind of now burdening.
[37:21] On the hormone.
[37:22] Yeah.
[37:22] So she's doing the injections leading up to the transfer.
[37:26] So she's kind of taken on that burden now of the full process of doing the transfers.
[37:31] She's the one doing the injections.
[37:33] The actual transfer itself isn't really too physically demanding, but...
[37:38] Yeah, the injections are no good.
[37:40] She really struggled with them as well.
[37:43] I'm trying to encourage men to be a little bit more proactive with the idea of falling pregnant and putting the things in place for that.
[37:53] Mm-hmm.
[37:54] Because I feel like it's not a thought, especially for the male.
[37:57] I feel like we don't put anywhere near the time and energy into it than what females do.
[38:01] And look, I'm one of the unfortunate less than 1% of males that this has happened to, but there's also 40% of males
[38:10] that have male factor-related issues.
[38:14] And a lot of that is just poor sperm health.
[38:18] But it's something that you would never think about, right?
[38:20] Like you just try to conceive naturally.
[38:22] But that is something that could hinder your journey, not to the level of that Bell and I, but...
[38:27] It could put you back a significant amount of time.
[38:29] It could then actually cause you to need to do IVF.
[38:34] Yeah.
[38:35] Whereas if it's like, all right, we're going to try to start conceiving, it's like, I'm going to get healthy.
[38:39] So I've got really, like really, really healthy sperm and it's going to really increase the chances of us falling pregnant and you're going to save a lot of money, a lot of time, a lot of trauma.
[38:48] Yeah, there's something that hadn't really occurred to me until then that there's an evolution of like men traditionally not thinking about pregnancy really at all to then an evolution to where it's like giving a lot of respect to what women go through in pregnancy.
[39:03] But there's an element to that that I think absolves responsibility as well.
[39:06] Like where men will be like, well, I'm not, you know, she's doing all the work and respecting the, I think it comes from a certain intention of respecting the amount of,
[39:17] the enormity of what it is for a woman to be pregnant.
[39:21] But there's definitely a way in which you therefore stand back and think I don't have to take on any of the mental load here, basically, of what it is to fall pregnant.
[39:31] And it's such an incredibly pertinent point I think you bring up that it's two of you doing it together and it's equal responsibility.
[39:39] Yeah, definitely.
[39:40] And, I mean, we've lived that more than most will need to in terms of that process of falling pregnant but –
[39:46] Yeah, even if you are fortunate enough to fall pregnant quite quickly and naturally, it's like, yeah, just let's be really present.
[39:51] Let's be really proactive, conscious of how each other are feeling through that journey.
[39:57] So, yeah, I think it's really important.
[40:00] So you've had five failed attempts?
[40:05] Yeah.
[40:05] So we used – so you can actually, in a transfer, put more than one embryo in.
[40:10] So our last one we put two embryos in, which –
[40:13] Kind of can increase the likelihood of one sticking.
[40:17] But so that one failed as well.
[40:19] And so at that point, we'd used six.
[40:22] We only had three left.
[40:23] And so then this whole new part of the journey comes in.
[40:27] It's like, all right, well, are we just going to soldier on and use the next three and then run out?
[40:32] And then what do we do?
[40:33] Yeah.
[40:34] Are these three even going to work?
[40:36] Because they're all graded.
[40:37] All the embryos are graded by quality, and you use the highest quality one first.
[40:43] So the three we've got left, they're like the duds.
[40:46] They're like the runts of the vicar.
[40:47] It is like a draft.
[40:48] Yeah, literally.
[40:49] So you've just got the last three.
[40:50] They're sitting on the bench.
[40:51] It's like, do we call them onto the ground?
[40:52] Fine, I'll take Greg.
[40:56] So, yeah, so, and again, this is Belle, because like mentally Belle's been a lot more proactive and she's really dived into researching and sits on her computer and that's kind of her way of dealing with things.
[41:09] I'm probably not quite to that level, but she, yeah, we sort of sat down.
[41:13] She's like, well, do we get another opinion?
[41:16] Do we go somewhere else?
[41:18] and see if there's another way of doing it.
[41:21] And she'd been recommended a different specialist who's really highly regarded in Australia.
[41:28] And at this point, to your point, right, it's like, yeah, we're going to do everything we can.
[41:32] So if we just sort of...
[41:34] you know, just knuckle these last three out and they don't work.
[41:37] And then, again, we've wasted another three months.
[41:39] The transfers are also really expensive.
[41:41] Like, this is another part of the cost of the IVF stuff.
[41:46] Like, it's a lot.
[41:48] How much is it per transfer?
[41:50] So, transfers, I think they're – I mean, you do get a bit back –
[41:55] But they're a few thousand dollars per transfer, but then you've got to add in all the drugs, the appointments, the blood tests, all that, and then add on all of my stuff.
[42:04] That's just the transfer IVF stuff.
[42:08] All the drugs I was taking, again, the semen analysis tests.
[42:11] The surgeries, yeah.
[42:12] The surgeries.
[42:13] So, yeah, we've spent a lot of money through this journey and we wouldn't change anything.
[42:19] We obviously...
[42:20] going to do everything we can.
[42:22] But yeah, so at this point we're like, all right, well, let's just stop.
[42:25] It's worth mentioning because it's like, for some people, it's not an option.
[42:28] Yeah.
[42:29] Because of cost prohibitive.
[42:30] Yeah.
[42:31] No, definitely.
[42:32] And that's one thing Bill and I have spoken about a lot is, and I've had people hit me up on social media guys messaging and be like, Oh, like, thank you so much.
[42:39] Like, you know, for speaking out and,
[42:41] It's helped us so much, but we're actually not in a position to do the microtesi surgery, so we're hoping we can do it soon.
[42:48] So you read that and you're like, oh, gosh, yeah, we feel very grateful that we're actually in a position to afford to do all the processes necessary.
[42:58] So once the transfer happens, then what is the actual process of finding out if it's like a yes or a no, like you're pregnant or not?
[43:09] Yeah, it's agonizing.
[43:11] I think it's seven, around a week, maybe just over a week, which, yeah, it's an agonizingly long time to just be waiting and anticipating the results.
[43:22] And then you find out by a call, like one of the IVF nurses will just give you a call, and it's just a straight up, like, we're really sorry, like, this one didn't work.
[43:31] Um, so it's so amazing.
[43:33] You have this huge buildup and it's like literally a 30 second phone call.
[43:36] Um, so yeah, many tears off the back of them.
[43:40] I always make sure that I'm with Bell when we find out the news.
[43:43] So, um, like I'll tell Bell if she gets a call at like 10 AM and she knows she's got the IVF number, like seared in her brain just to not pick up.
[43:51] Um, and then wait till I get home and we can get the news together just cause I feel it's really important that we're there to support each other.
[43:57] And, um, so yeah, we've, um, we've, we've, we've, we've, we've, we've, we've, we've, we've,
[44:00] really made sure we've been together when the news has broken, but plenty of tears after that, then, I mean, we just sort of dive into the next month.
[44:08] I mean, you have a probably, I think it's about 10 days before you can actually start the next process anyway.
[44:13] So
[44:15] But yeah, it probably almost takes you all those 10 days to actually kind of get over the last one and then kick into the next one.
[44:20] So yeah, it's definitely a tough, tough part of the process.
[44:24] Yeah.
[44:25] Can I just check in on something?
[44:26] Had you told any mates or any men in your life at this point?
[44:30] So at this point, no.
[44:33] I definitely knew at some point I was going to talk to people about it.
[44:37] I think for me, it was kind of, I wanted more answers.
[44:40] before I would talk about stuff.
[44:42] That was kind of like how I was sort of drilled up until that point and the complete opposite now.
[44:47] But at that point, it's like, yeah, I don't really like the idea of talking about something that I don't necessarily know all the answers to or the uncertainty behind it.
[44:54] And I didn't like the idea of kind of being a burden to other people as well.
[44:59] It's like if I tell them this, then...
[45:01] you know, I'm burdening them with my issues.
[45:03] And, um, so yeah, there's all these things that I was kind of wrestling with at that point, but that wasn't the case.
[45:10] It wasn't a burden when you, not at all.
[45:11] No, it's quite, it's the complete opposite.
[45:13] Yeah.
[45:13] And then from then, like it gives everyone a better understanding of what you're going through.
[45:17] Like now that I've come out publicly, you know, I have people at work come up all the time.
[45:21] They're like, Oh mate, like, that's so amazing that you've done that.
[45:23] Like we didn't have any idea you were going through that.
[45:26] Um, and then that last questions, some people are more curious than others.
[45:29] And, um,
[45:30] I can tell them about what we've gone through and gives people a bit more of a context as well.
[45:35] One thing I struggled with at work is these constant triggers that would keep coming up because of the fact that nobody knew.
[45:41] Some bloke would be like, if I had to go get a test and I'm leaving work at midday and they're like, oh, half day's conker.
[45:49] It's just like a little passing joking comment.
[45:51] It's banter, but he's got no idea that I'm about to go get a semen analysis that could change my life.
[45:58] So it's like now that people have that understanding in the context of what I'm going through, the triggers aren't there as much.
[46:06] So it's so helpful because that was a lot of the struggle and what I worked with in my psych is like, all right, how do I deal with these triggers?
[46:13] Because some of them are so triggering and it rattles me for hours and days.
[46:18] So I had a lot of techniques for that.
[46:20] So like if I was sitting at my desk or a table or something and I got triggered, I had this technique where I'd sort of like push my feet into the ground just to sort of like shift my attention.
[46:29] So little things like that, whereas I don't have to use them as much now, which is, you know, which is great.
[46:34] So instead of it being kind of like a reactive response, it's now like a lot more like preventative and proactive.
[46:40] Yeah.
[46:41] So yeah, the talking out, it's been, it's life changing.
[46:44] Yeah.
[46:45] So I'm just trying to get where we are chronologically now.
[46:47] So you've done five months worth of unsuccess.
[46:50] Well, sorry.
[46:52] So you find someone else to go and send, another specialist, you've got three left.
[46:55] Yep.
[46:56] Yep.
[46:56] So we've gone, we've now made the decision.
[46:58] So we've...
[47:00] We've just sourced out a new, so I went to a urologist.
[47:04] So he's like, he's a specialist with mail and his expertise is with the fertility side of it.
[47:12] So we went and saw him and I'll never forget the first appointment we had with him.
[47:17] Cause we went in and we kind of shared everything of the journey at that point.
[47:22] We'd got all of our medical records and tests from our previous specialist and he's gone through them all.
[47:30] He kind of explained to us that, in short, everything we'd kind of done...
[47:36] was probably, well, there's no right or wrong, but there's no, what I'd done wasn't actually a proven, like effective process.
[47:44] Oh my God.
[47:45] So it was like, yeah.
[47:46] So like, cause this like male fertility, right?
[47:48] It's, there's so many gray areas.
[47:50] There's a lot of unknown, like they need to be doing a bit more research and study behind it.
[47:53] But at that point it's like, that is not even a proven way of going about it.
[47:57] It's like.
[47:58] Which was news to you.
[47:59] News to us.
[48:00] Like, so, and I remember leaving that appointment and,
[48:04] And I'm like in a rage.
[48:06] Like I don't feel angry a whole heap.
[48:11] But I remember driving home.
[48:12] So Belle ended up going back to work.
[48:15] And at this point, Belle's actually like really excited because she's like, all right, we've got another chance.
[48:21] We're going to see somebody else.
[48:24] And he was like on the flip side of that appointment.
[48:26] He was really hopeful.
[48:27] He's like, okay.
[48:28] Your levels are where they need to be.
[48:30] I'm pretty confident when I get in there and do my operation, we'll find some.
[48:34] So we came out of it with a bit of hope, but at that point, I'm internally blowing up.
[48:40] I am so angry.
[48:41] But it's so understandable and so fair.
[48:44] Oh, definitely.
[48:45] Yeah, definitely.
[48:46] So Bell went back to work and I drove home to Geelong.
[48:49] So I had a good hour drive from the appointment home.
[48:53] Just screaming the whole time.
[48:55] Yeah.
[48:55] Even just reliving it now, like I've never felt so angry.
[49:00] Just like this sense of like disgust and like the feeling of unfair popping up again.
[49:06] And yeah, that drive home will just stick with me forever, I reckon, just how I felt and...
[49:12] One thing that my cycle and I've worked through is if I do start feeling that way, just make a call.
[49:16] Like whether I call Annabelle or call mum or someone just to kind of like break the cycle and talk through it.
[49:21] And I couldn't bring myself to call anyone.
[49:23] It was just like I was swimming in it.
[49:26] And also worry that like I don't want to burst Annabelle's bubble.
[49:31] Yeah, I didn't probably ever express to Bell, definitely not like in the recent time after that, like how that affected me so much.
[49:40] Yeah, so that happened.
[49:41] And then it was all a very quick turnaround.
[49:44] So we decided to just leave the three embryos we had.
[49:47] So they're still frozen, sitting on the bench.
[49:50] And our new urologist had the operation again about eight weeks ago.
[49:55] The micro-teasy.
[49:56] So I had a second micro-teasy, but he did it.
[49:59] So I did it again.
[49:59] Oh, my God.
[50:01] So second operation now.
[50:03] So I didn't have to do any of the injections leading up to this operation.
[50:07] Like I said, our new specialist kind of said, like, that isn't the way I do it.
[50:13] which was great.
[50:13] Like that was a huge relief.
[50:15] But also infuriating that you went through that and there was no real evidence that that's something you needed to do.
[50:22] Yeah, definitely.
[50:23] So I remember just like in that drive home just thinking like, we've just gone through like I think it was a year and a bit with this specialist doing these injections, wasting thousands of dollars having this operation that we thought worked.
[50:36] But we did find some definitely.
[50:40] The other difference between –
[50:43] The specialist and the surgery is the first one froze our embryos at day three, whereas this process.
[50:49] So I had my microtesia again about eight weeks ago and it was successful.
[50:54] So literally eight weeks ago from today.
[50:55] Eight weeks ago from today.
[50:56] Right.
[50:58] And it was successful again.
[51:00] And I say that, you know-
[51:02] conscious that it might not be successful, but he managed to find some sperm and a lot more than from the first one.
[51:10] So enough that I now have four frozen vials of sperm that we can use in the future.
[51:16] So I'll never have to have the operation again, which is a huge relief.
[51:21] And so, and then from those, from that surgery, Bell gained same process, did her egg collection.
[51:28] Bell is...
[51:30] She has eggs coming out of everywhere, which is a blessing because that is for a lot of...
[51:34] I hope not everywhere.
[51:36] For a lot of issues, Belle.
[51:37] There's eggs coming out everywhere.
[51:40] She has an abundance of eggs.
[51:43] And that's the flip side.
[51:44] So for females going through IVF struggles, a lot of them don't have eggs, which is really sad.
[51:50] So we're very fortunate that Belle's side of stuff is very healthy and very good.
[51:55] So I think she got 30-something eggs,
[51:58] I got plenty of sperm, so we did the same thing where the transfer, we fertilized drugs.
[52:04] So we got five embryos this time from this operation, but they were frozen at day five instead of day three.
[52:11] So that essentially just means that they're more mature.
[52:14] So they're kind of – it's almost like quality over quantity essentially because if you freeze them at day three –
[52:20] you're probably going to have more there, but they haven't survived to day five.
[52:25] Yeah.
[52:26] So it's kind of like a survival of the fittest.
[52:27] Like if you get to day three and then day four, day five, it's like day five is meant to be the optimal time to freeze them, but there's arguments that cooking three, like, again, there's so much gray area.
[52:38] So, yeah, we currently have five embryos sitting there frozen.
[52:42] We were going to do our first transfer last week, but it fell on the same day as my brother's wedding.
[52:48] So we've kind of decided we kind of had to push that back.
[52:51] So we'll do our first transfer hopefully in about a week and a bit or about 10 days.
[52:58] There's so many things I admire about you, but the fact that you're coming on here when we talk about why you're in it, like you are so right in at the moment.
[53:05] I think that's just so brave of you.
[53:06] Yeah.
[53:07] No, thank you.
[53:08] I appreciate that.
[53:08] And that is something that comes up a lot from messages from other people is that they appreciate –
[53:14] And Belle talks a lot on her TikTok and she's probably even more open than I am with some of the stuff she talks about, which is really cool.
[53:22] And I admire Belle for that.
[53:23] But yeah, the fact that we're not kind of waiting to the end to then tell our story and whether it's successful or not.
[53:30] But I think that's really important, especially for men.
[53:33] Like I said, like I struggled to talk about it at all.
[53:35] because I wanted some answers and, um, I want a bit more clarity on certain things, but, um, I guess, you know, that's just life.
[53:42] And I think the more we can speak about it in the moment, um, yeah, it's, um, it's really valuable.
[53:48] So yeah, I find it, I'm very humbled that a lot of people sort of appreciate that.
[53:53] Um,
[53:53] It's so true.
[53:54] It is an incredibly vulnerable thing to do because most of the time, if not all of the time, I would say that when people come and talk to us here in a public way, they've gone through the thing and now they're able to talk about it in a reflective way because there's a safety in knowing that like they got through it and there's a, and they can kind of shape the story in a way that feels safe to them because
[54:20] But to be able to tell – and we often ask people to come on and then we realize, actually, they're right in the middle of something.
[54:27] It's just not the right time to talk about it.
[54:30] Totally understand.
[54:31] And I'm probably the same.
[54:33] I think I would find it much harder to talk about something in the middle of it.
[54:37] before you've gotten through it.
[54:39] But it is quite astonishing now that I think about it from that point of view that you talk about it like this.
[54:45] It's amazing.
[54:46] No, thank you.
[54:46] I think the more I speak about it, the more comfortable I actually feel doing it.
[54:52] So, yeah, it's taken me a lot to get to this point, but I'm really glad that I am and I hope that, you know, people can sort of take something from it.
[54:59] When you picture your future, if you let your mind wander 10, 15 years into the future, do you envision, like do you picture yourself with kids or you don't allow yourself to go there or...
[55:12] Yeah, it's a great question.
[55:13] I definitely don't think about it too much.
[55:16] Obviously, our mind wanders and those thoughts do come up.
[55:19] I think when they did, any thought of having kids would actually make me really upset.
[55:23] Like when that thought came up, I was always attached to the idea that I might not have that at some point.
[55:28] But I'm also well aware that...
[55:31] at some time in the future, I'm more than likely going to have kids.
[55:34] They just might potentially not be my kids.
[55:37] So that's another thing that comes with this change.
[55:39] Like biologically.
[55:40] Correct, yeah.
[55:41] So that's kind of like the next step and I don't think about that at all.
[55:46] Like it comes up every now and then with Belle and I about, okay, so if these embryos don't work,
[55:54] then what?
[55:54] Do we then go to like a third specialist and try something again?
[55:58] Or was this kind of like we're done with this?
[56:03] We do have the frozen sperm.
[56:05] So I think we'll...
[56:08] I say I think we'll be okay, but we'll just never really know.
[56:10] But the next step would be donor sperm.
[56:13] So we'll have Bell's eggs.
[56:16] We would just have to get donor sperm to then fertilize them.
[56:19] So that would be not my biological children.
[56:22] But, yeah, it's something I don't really tend to get too much into just because at this point we don't really quite need to.
[56:29] And I don't want to sort of...
[56:31] waste too much time and energy or something that might not happen.
[56:34] But yeah, that's kind of what would be next.
[56:38] How do you feel when friends get pregnant?
[56:45] Like when friends say like, oh, great news, everyone.
[56:50] We just started trying and we're pregnant.
[56:53] Yeah.
[56:54] Yeah, that's probably one of the toughest parts, I think, especially for Belle.
[56:57] Like Belle struggles with that probably more than most other things.
[57:01] And because we're at that age now where a lot of our friends are either pregnant or have just had kids.
[57:08] So, yeah, that's really hard.
[57:10] That's probably the biggest trigger for Belle and I. I think initially it was always like, oh, like when are you guys having kids?
[57:17] Or like why don't you have kids?
[57:18] Like those sort of questions really triggering.
[57:20] But now they're a little bit more open and people understand what we're going through.
[57:23] We don't get that really at all now, which is great.
[57:26] But I love kids.
[57:28] I love my friends and my family.
[57:30] So I don't want to let what I'm going through impact the relationships I have with those people.
[57:36] But yeah, the pregnancy part of it is kind of hard because-
[57:40] they're going through the process that we're trying to get to.
[57:43] It triggers Bella a lot.
[57:46] So if she sees it, say if we're at home and she sees a friend post something because social media is everywhere, right?
[57:51] So you can't escape it.
[57:53] Yeah, she'll definitely have those moments and I have those moments a lot.
[57:56] But I think just talking through them helps.
[58:00] And that's one thing I've learned.
[58:01] Yeah.
[58:02] is especially if Belle's having a real struggle with it, it's kind of just like, all right, like I'm going to lean into how you're feeling and just let you know that I'm feeling the exact same way and it's really unfair.
[58:12] And so instead of, say, trying to fix the problem like a lot of males do when, you know, their partners are struggling, it's like, oh, let's just do this or I'll help you with this.
[58:21] It's like, nah, like...
[58:22] Let's just sit in this together and just feel really shitty.
[58:25] So that's been a really big learning for us.
[58:27] But yeah, it definitely doesn't make it any easier.
[58:30] Yeah.
[58:32] I hope this doesn't come across as an insensitive question, but I imagine that for a lot of couples who are trying to achieve something together, the concept of blame would be so toxic to a relationship.
[58:44] How do you navigate that and avoid falling into a blame game or a blame trap?
[58:50] Yeah.
[58:50] Yeah, I think it just comes back to the communication and just being really open with each other.
[58:57] Yeah, one thing I've told Belle is it's whatever you're feeling or if something's triggered you, just tell me.
[59:03] Just tell me what it is.
[59:04] Just be really direct and open with it.
[59:05] Don't attack me about 10 other things I've done wrong.
[59:09] I didn't pick up the dog poo out the back and you yell at me for three hours.
[59:11] It's like I know there's something else happening.
[59:14] beneath the surface that you're struggling with.
[59:16] And if it is a bit of blame, I would rather you just tell that, express that to me and then we can talk through it rather than you stewing on it.
[59:24] And was that a fear for you?
[59:26] Or am I projecting?
[59:29] No, definitely.
[59:30] No, early days for sure.
[59:31] Oh, definitely.
[59:32] Yeah.
[59:32] No, early.
[59:33] It was probably more prominent early in the journey.
[59:36] And then as we've kind of just like got stuck into it together, I think it's kind of become a bit more of an afterthought.
[59:43] But
[59:44] Yeah.
[59:44] I mean, I can't blame Annabelle for anything, but from the other way, Bell, yeah, it has definitely come up.
[59:52] And not that I'm saying anyone should be.
[59:54] I'm just imagining that, especially when you're going through hormone treatment, that just completely, from what I understand and what you've said, completely messes with your ability to regulate and have control over your
[1:00:09] faculty, I guess, and emotions and thinking.
[1:00:12] Yeah, it must be really difficult.
[1:00:13] No, definitely.
[1:00:14] Yeah, I think the more we sort of spoke through it and were really open about it, the more it's helped.
[1:00:19] But, I mean, we're still human and we still have times where we'll, yeah, butt heads and argue about it and feel a bit shitty and not talk for a bit or whatever and then we'll always work through it.
[1:00:29] And you mentioned the analogy of her not getting angry for other things, just tell me what you're thinking.
[1:00:36] That must have been a real challenge for you to say what you're thinking.
[1:00:39] Yeah, for sure.
[1:00:40] No, definitely.
[1:00:40] I feel like a lot of the time, especially early, I would kind of park my stuff and just kind of bottle it up and not necessarily always express that to her.
[1:00:51] And I think that was, like I said, one of the challenges.
[1:00:53] Like when you're in it together and you're both struggling, it's really hard a lot of the time to express how you're actually feeling because it's affecting both of you.
[1:01:01] And that's where talking out to others has been really helpful because you can just chat with someone that's not actually living it
[1:01:08] and they can have a different perspective on something.
[1:01:10] And I've also learned that there's different people in your support networks that can help you in different ways.
[1:01:16] So you might have that friend that just goes, you know, fuck, that sucks, mate, but, you know, like let's go grab a feed, whatever.
[1:01:24] But there might be a friend that you can actually sit down and he'll work through it a little bit with you and ask you a bit more questions and probe and be a bit more curious.
[1:01:32] So, yeah, and I'm very fortunate enough that I feel like I've got
[1:01:36] you know, a nice range of friends and family that I can go to, you know, parents, you know, Belle's family, you know, they've been great for her and me as well.
[1:01:45] But yeah, I think it's really important to have those people in your support network.
[1:01:49] I guess it would allow you to, if the only person you were speaking to was your partner, who you're going through it with, then you're going to misfire some days and put your stuff on them when they're not able to handle it that day and not be the support that they need.
[1:02:05] I imagine that having that network and a professional in there allows you to be the partner that they need you to be at some points as well.
[1:02:14] Oh, 100%.
[1:02:15] Yeah, I think it's so imperative.
[1:02:16] And I don't think that's for any relationship really.
[1:02:19] Obviously, we're going through infertility challenges, but everyone's going through their own challenges.
[1:02:24] In some way.
[1:02:25] So I think, yeah, working on your relationships, really, really important to be able to, you know, get through whatever the hardship is.
[1:02:32] And, you know, for a lot of people, if they don't, it can, you know, cause some serious relationship issues or breakup.
[1:02:38] And, yeah, it's, and that's another thing, like, I'm just so grateful for Belle that, you know, she's come.
[1:02:45] with me on this journey because like I said, like early days, there was always this thought that, you know, maybe she's just going to up and go and go find someone else.
[1:02:53] But, yeah, no, it's – yeah, the stuff we've gone through has been – yeah, it's been hard and I'm just forever grateful for Belle, definitely.
[1:03:01] Can I just one last question to finish?
[1:03:02] I'm just interested to know how all-encompassing this is.
[1:03:05] How often are you thinking about this?
[1:03:07] Is this on your mind 24-7?
[1:03:08] I imagine it would be close to that.
[1:03:10] Yeah.
[1:03:11] No, definitely.
[1:03:12] It's all engulfing, I think.
[1:03:15] It completely consumes every aspect of your life.
[1:03:21] Obviously, emotionally, it takes pretty much all of your time and energy.
[1:03:24] And then physically, like with the operations that I've had and the injections, that's been pretty traumatic.
[1:03:32] Financially, it's kind of saying that you have to really obviously commit a lot of your finances too.
[1:03:36] And I think even socially, it's really consuming.
[1:03:40] That's probably one part that people probably wouldn't quite think about or realize.
[1:03:44] But I mean, the instances that stick out the most are like if...
[1:03:50] While I was going through my injections, I would always do them after dinner just because you had to do them at a regular time every night.
[1:03:57] So if I wanted to go have dinner with friends, like say, grab a few mates, go have a beer at the pub, I'd go have dinner.
[1:04:03] I would actually then sneak off to the car.
[1:04:05] I'd have to bring the injection in a cooler bag in the car.
[1:04:08] So I would sneak off to the car, inject, and then come back.
[1:04:12] And that was kind of through the time where I wasn't really expressed.
[1:04:15] I hadn't been talking to my friends about it.
[1:04:17] Mm-hmm.
[1:04:17] So, and when you say you have those side effects, is that, are they, I've never really asked these questions, but is it like a general sort of feeling of crapness the whole time?
[1:04:27] Or is it like once you inject, you get a wave of nausea and moods, like swings and stuff?
[1:04:32] Yeah, it comes on pretty quickly, like the nausea stuff.
[1:04:35] Yeah.
[1:04:36] You get a bit irritable.
[1:04:38] Like the mood swings are probably more a little bit dependent on like where you're at and what you're doing.
[1:04:44] But, yeah, the irritability and the nausea kick in pretty quickly.
[1:04:48] So that was the thing.
[1:04:49] So you kind of – I was going back, say, to have dinner and acting like I'm –
[1:04:53] I'm normal and it's the same, but I'm actually feeling like really shit.
[1:04:56] And then it's like, Oh, I might maybe just shoot off or, and try to hide it and try to hide it.
[1:05:01] Or some nights you just don't go like, so you end up just like, you're removing yourself from a lot of social stuff.
[1:05:08] Um,
[1:05:09] which, yeah, for me, one of my values is connected.
[1:05:12] Like I hugely put a premium on making sure that I'm connected with people around me and especially friends and family.
[1:05:20] So, yeah, that's an aspect of it that was, yeah, like really tough.
[1:05:25] So, yeah, this journey definitely takes every bit of, you know, everything you think is your normal life and it kind of flips it on its head a little bit.
[1:05:34] Yeah.
[1:05:34] kind of back to the card.
[1:05:37] So, yeah, and again, like it's only kind of as I've reflected back on a lot of this stuff that I've realised, yeah, every single moment how much it actually has affected us.
[1:05:48] That must be so hard for people, for everyone who's going through IVF or if you're trying to hide, like for a lot of men who would be trying to hide it, that you're going through something that you felt,
[1:06:05] a level of shame over.
[1:06:06] So that shame is kind of isolating, but then you're doing an activity that draws you further isolating out of social contact.
[1:06:15] It's like a compounding issue.
[1:06:17] I can imagine people getting into a very dangerous place of isolation and depression throughout the whole thing.
[1:06:23] Yeah, I think I was very fortunate because I did have a lot of support networks and family and friends already around.
[1:06:31] And through work, I'm around people a lot and I'm doing something that I love and I've got a lot of great people around me.
[1:06:36] So that was really amazing.
[1:06:38] I think Belle definitely experienced an element of that.
[1:06:42] Belle works from home.
[1:06:43] So that was one thing that she really struggled with because she was already isolated through work.
[1:06:49] And then because she is someone that kind of likes to be really informed, she'd be sitting on her computer like for hours trying to research stuff.
[1:06:55] And yeah, the early parts of that were really hard.
[1:06:58] And then Belle's kind of now built a bit of like an online community through her social media channels and Facebook.
[1:07:05] And she talks a lot to people and it's been amazing for her.
[1:07:09] And that was probably the one thing I struggled with is I didn't have that.
[1:07:13] Yeah.
[1:07:13] So I had this real sense that like I'm kind of like going through this real hard journey on my own in the sense that I don't know anyone else that's experienced the same thing.
[1:07:22] So...
[1:07:25] Yeah, I think it's a really important message, like just to let males going through this, that they're not alone in their challenges.
[1:07:31] Even if they haven't got anyone nearby or they haven't heard of anyone that is going through the same struggle, they definitely are.
[1:07:37] There's probably a lot more than people would ever imagine.
[1:07:39] So, yeah, it was definitely something tough.
[1:07:43] But, yeah, I think speaking out has been amazing for me and I hope for amazing for a lot of other men.
[1:07:50] I don't know where I got this from, but because like it might sound counterintuitive to people that know me and people that listen to this show, but there's definitely an inbuilt thing in me of like as a man, in inverted commas, I should be able to take on a certain amount of shit and just like kind of swallow it and that's part of being an adult male.
[1:08:13] But it really is, I mean, I'm sure that's just wrong.
[1:08:17] I mean, there's part of me that feels like there is a certain amount of being an adult in general that you have to take on unpleasant stuff and be able to sit with it.
[1:08:26] But there's, yeah, it just seems so dangerous because there's a point where it reaches a threshold that you can't take it on, but you don't know where that is.
[1:08:37] Yeah.
[1:08:38] Yeah, for sure.
[1:08:39] I think that just comes back to making sure you've got the right support networks around you and...
[1:08:44] Yeah, for a lot of men, the easy option is to just bottle it up and soldier on.
[1:08:49] And then you've got all these like unexpressed emotions and feelings that have to come out somewhere.
[1:08:54] And then, you know, that obviously leads people to do things that they probably shouldn't be, you know, in terms of...
[1:08:59] alcoholism or gambling or cheating on their partners, whatever it is.
[1:09:05] I hate to think that stuff.
[1:09:07] But yeah, they're the bad things.
[1:09:09] That's where they have to express themselves.
[1:09:10] Whereas if you've got those really important support networks around you and you can talk through things, it's easily the best thing.
[1:09:16] Absolutely.
[1:09:17] Well, well done for doing it.
[1:09:19] Just on Belle, you've mentioned her a few times and people follow her on TikTok who obviously get a lot of souls from following her.
[1:09:25] How do people, I don't understand TikTok, how would people find her to follow her if they'd like to follow the journey?
[1:09:30] I think it's just Annabelle and Reese would kind of be like her TikTok name.
[1:09:34] Okay.
[1:09:36] I'm not actually on TikTok, but Bell is.
[1:09:37] Sounds like you are.
[1:09:38] Annabelle and Rhys.
[1:09:39] Sounds like you are.
[1:09:39] It's like Annabelle bracket and a little bit of Rhys.
[1:09:43] That's what it should be.
[1:09:46] So I think a lot of people would love to follow the journey.
[1:09:48] So we'll definitely put a link to that in the show notes.
[1:09:50] You'll handle it here.
[1:09:52] I will find the TikTok and stick it in there.
[1:09:56] Yep.
[1:09:57] Great.
[1:09:59] Wow.
[1:10:00] I'll put it in the show notes.
[1:10:01] Yes.
[1:10:01] That's what I'm trying to say.
[1:10:02] Beautiful.
[1:10:03] Right.
[1:10:03] It's really, it's incredible that you come and talk about it.
[1:10:07] I just know that if I was going through anything similar to what you're going through, it would be so nice to hear this.
[1:10:13] Like it would be just so, so helpful.
[1:10:16] um so yeah thank you on behalf of everyone who is no doubt being helped yeah no thank you honestly thank you for having me on the podcast because i was telling bridget when i caught up with her last week that you know this podcast actually helped me be more vulnerable and be more open and to hear a lot of people go through different hardships um has been amazing for me so thank you to you guys for setting this platform up for a lot of people
[1:10:39] That's a pleasure.
[1:10:39] Good luck to you and Bill.
[1:10:40] We're all rooting for you, which in the context of this episode sounds like a strange, inappropriate turn of phrase.
[1:10:47] I was expecting that one from Ryan.
[1:10:50] I would have been intentional with it.
[1:10:51] Hugh tends to say that stuff more accidentally.
[1:10:54] We're wishing you all the best in your journey and thank you for being so vulnerable with us today.
[1:10:59] Thank you.
[1:10:59] My pleasure.
[1:11:01] The Imperfects is hosted and produced by Hugh Van Kylenberg, Ryan Shelton and Josh Van Kylenberg.
[1:11:06] Our executive producer is Bridget North East.
[1:11:08] Researcher, Isabella North East.
[1:11:10] Sound design by Nick Van Kylenberg.
[1:11:12] This episode is filmed and edited by George Martin.
[1:11:15] The Imperfects is not a licensed mental health service and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, treatment or assessment.
[1:11:21] The advice given in this episode is general in nature, but if you're struggling, please see a healthcare professional or call Lifeline on 13 11 14.

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